1 Wednesday, 9 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 We'll hear the testimony of four witnesses through videolink
12 today. Until now, we have received no applications for protective
13 measures. Would that still be the situation?
14 MR. MISETIC: That is correct, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And I was informed that we'll start with
16 Mr. Babacic.
17 MR. MISETIC: That is correct, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Then could we first establish whether the videolink is properly
20 functioning. I can see the representative of the registry in, I take it,
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours, this
23 is the registrar representative in Zagreb.
24 JUDGE ORIE: In Zagreb, yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] And we hear you fine and see you
2 JUDGE ORIE: And the same is true in the opposite direction.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the proper procedure would be that
5 since the witnesses move from 92 bis to 92 ter that we first get the
6 attestations, Mr. Misetic.
7 Are you ready to call the first witness?
8 MR. MISETIC: I am, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, in Zagreb, would you be so
10 kind to escort or have Mr. Babacic being escorted into the courtroom or
11 at least in your room, and could you confirm that apart from the
12 technician and yourself there is no one present in that room.
13 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I confirm that, Your Honour.
14 It's only myself and the technician.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Could you, please, see that Mr. Babacic
16 enters the courtroom.
17 Good morning, Mr. Babacic. Can you see me and can you hear me in
18 a language you understand.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you also can hear me, I take it, from your
21 answer in a language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Babacic, before you give evidence the Rules of
24 Procedure and Evidence require that you make a -- that you give a solemn
25 declaration, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
1 but the truth.
2 The text of that solemn declaration is now handed out to you by
3 the representative of the registry. May I invite you to make that solemn
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Babacic. Please be seated.
8 WITNESS: JOSKO BABACIC
9 [Witness testified through interpreter]
10 [Witness testified via videolink]
11 Examination by Mr. Misetic:
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Babacic, you will first be briefly examined by
13 Mr. Misetic. Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
14 Mr. Misetic, please, proceed.
15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Babacic. Would you please state your full name
17 for the record.
18 A. Good morning. Josko Babacic.
19 MR. MISETIC: And, Madam Registrar, if we could show the witness
20 Exhibit D200, please. And if we could have that on the screen.
21 Q. Mr. Babacic, do you recall giving a statement to the Gotovina
22 Defence and signing that statement on the 8th of May, 2008?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that your signature in the bottom right-hand corner of
25 that statement that's in front of you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you had a chance to review this statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are there any changes or additions that need to be made to the
6 A. No, there's no need.
7 Q. At the time you gave the statement, did you give it to the best
8 of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If I asked you the same questions today in court, would provide
11 the same answers today in court that you provided to investigators of the
12 Gotovina Defence on the 8th of May, 2008?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I move to admit Exhibit D200 into
16 MS. DE LANDRI: No objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, could you please activate your
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes. No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. De Landri. A number had already been
21 assigned, Mr. Registrar. Therefore, D200 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my direct
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Babacic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
1 Ms. De Landri, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
2 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Babacic, you will now be cross-examined by
4 Ms. De Landri. Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Ms. De Landri.
7 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Babacic, you gave your statement on May 8th of 2008; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And your statement pertains to events that occurred in August and
12 September of 1995; is that correct?
13 A. Just the month of August.
14 Q. And I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 2 of your
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Have you had an opportunity to look at paragraph 2?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You were the assistant commander of the Political Activity
20 Department of the 2nd Battalion of the 113th Brigade; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you describe what your duties as the assistant commander of
23 the Political Activity Department were?
24 A. My duties were to prepare soldiers, to talk to them, sometimes
25 disciplinary measures. In any case, maintaining the state of morale.
1 Q. And also directing your attention to paragraph 2, you stated:
2 "The 2nd Infantry Battalion was comprised of conscripts."
3 Can you name some of those conscripts?
4 A. I no longer remember. I know Filipovic, Grbic. There were
5 hundreds of soldiers throughout all that time, the conscripts changed, so
6 I can't be sure of their names. We're talking hundreds of soldiers who
7 went through the unit.
8 Q. And directing your attention to paragraph 5 of your statement.
9 In paragraph 5, you stated that the brigade commander ordered that,
10 "... preparations, for the treatment of civilians and POWs be given."
11 Can you tell us who the brigade commander was who gave that
13 A. Danijel Kotlar was the commander. But this was not preparation
14 for the treatment of prisoners of war but, rather, instructions to the
15 soldiers as to how behave in combat, how to treat civilians, the wounded,
16 and they were distributed booklets where they could find all that. First
17 of all, the soldiers provide -- were given explanations. The booklet was
18 read out to them and then they were distributed, the booklets which
19 contained instructions issued by the Red Cross. Each and every one of
20 them was given this booklet which contained the instructions by the Red
21 Cross and the Geneva
22 Q. Just so I'm clear on your answer, you do not recall who the
23 brigade commander was who gave those instructions that I asked about?
24 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that. I remember that
2 Danijel Kotlar was the brigade commander.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It was -- that was the beginning of the previous
5 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Can you tell us where the preparations were conducted?
7 A. The preparations were conducted in a village called Velim in
8 Stampoti, and we followed those items, and on that day, we launched the
9 operation, all of the soldiers in my unit were comprised with the
10 preparations and instructions.
11 Q. And directing your attention to paragraph 6 of your statement,
12 you said that all soldiers received a booklet on conduct in accordance
13 with the Geneva
14 Is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Did you personally observe soldiers receiving those booklets?
17 A. I distributed the booklets myself.
18 Q. And was that on August 4th, 1995
19 A. On the 3rd of August.
20 Q. Who prepared the booklets?
21 A. They arrived from the brigade command. I don't know who had
22 prepared them. I received them from the brigade command.
23 Q. Okay. I'd like to direct your attention now to paragraph 9 of
24 your statement.
25 Do you have paragraph 9 in front of you, sir?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Okay. In paragraph 9 you stated:
3 "We had a meeting with members of the reconnaissance company in
4 the village of Bribirske
5 How many men attended that meeting; do you recall?
6 A. That was not a meeting. This is when the units linked up. My
7 unit linked up with the reconnaissance company that had arrived from a
8 different directions. This was the point where our two units linked up.
9 It was not a meeting.
10 Q. So -- so I -- just to clarify your answer. There -- there was
11 not a meeting?
12 A. Yes, we did meet, but it was my unit linking up with another
13 unit. My unit had over 200 men and the reconnaissance company had about
14 30 men. There were tanks there, and there were some 30 men who had
15 arrived as members of the reconnaissance company. They had arrived from
16 a different direction, and that's where our two units met.
17 Q. Can you name any of the individuals who attended that meeting?
18 MR. MISETIC: I object to the form.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to a meeting where the witness just
20 testified there was no meeting, Ms. De Landri. So perhaps you asked the
21 witness whether he knew anyone of the units that met at that point in
23 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Have you understood the question, Mr. Babacic? The
25 question being whether you could name any of the members of the units
1 that met at that moment in time at that place.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was the commander of that
3 reconnaissance company two months before that, and I knew all the men
4 from that company. And I also knew all the men from my unit and all of
5 my commanders were with me, and I can give you all of their names, if you
6 want me to do so.
7 MS. DE LANDRI:
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Let me say -- do you want me to give you the names of the men
10 from my unit or from the reconnaissance company? Which names do you want
11 me to give you?
12 Q. Tell us the names as best you can recall from the men who were
13 there at the gathering, not meeting, as I incorrectly stated.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness asked whether he should give the
15 names only of his unit or of the reconnaissance unit, which met with his
16 units at the time, the reconnaissance unit which he had had command over
18 Both units or ...
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Both, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivica Mikulandra, the battalion
22 commander then Miljanic Robano [phoen], Ruzic --
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second. For the transcribers to follow, could
24 you give them one by one and slowly. So could you first focus on your
25 own unit and then give us the first name that comes to your mind.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. The battalion commander
2 Ivica Mikulandra from my unit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Carefully look at Ms. De Landri because she'll give
4 you a sign when she expects you to -- the next name to be mentioned.
5 Next one, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miljanic, the company commander.
7 Banovac, the company commander. Ruzic, the company commander. Strunje,
8 a platoon commander. Colak, a platoon commander. Zura, a platoon
9 commander. These are the names of some of the commanders of companies in
10 my battalion and there was also me at the forefront. And the person I
11 met first was Krsto Friganovic from the reconnaissance company. There
12 was also Zeljko Kulusic in that unit. Dubravko Ivetic was another man
13 from that company. Vrlika. What do I know? I really can't remember any
14 more names, but I can recall their faces very well and I knew all the men
15 that were there.
16 Vuksic was the commander of the reconnaissance company, I just
18 MS. DE LANDRI:
19 Q. I'm directing your attention to paragraph 11 of your statement,
20 on August 14th, it says:
21 "We conducted heavy offensive activities in the areas of Trubar
22 and Babici and we seized the said villages the same evening."
23 Can you recall anyone who was there at the time, any of the other
24 men who were there during that occurrence?
25 A. The same members of the units that I just mentioned. And I'm
1 talking only about my unit, because the reconnaissance unit was not with
2 us in that territory.
3 Q. Directing your attention to paragraph 12 of your statement. You
4 stated on August 15th of 1995 you were wounded, is that correct, and
5 taken to a medical centre?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What type of wound did you suffer?
8 A. I suffered a wound in the left hand, from hand-grenade shrapnel
9 and a fracture of my left leg.
10 Q. How long did you stay in the medical centre?
11 A. I was just -- I received first aid at the medical centre, and
12 then I was discharged and stayed at home for a few months.
13 Q. Did you stay in the hospital overnight?
14 A. You mean the night between the 15th and the 16th?
15 Q. Any night.
16 A. No.
17 Q. But when -- when was the time that you went home for a few months
18 because of your wounds?
19 A. I was wounded around 11.00, and around 1300 hours I was put into
20 a car. The journey to Sibenik took about two or three hours. In the
21 afternoon on the 15th, I arrived at the hospital where I was examined by
22 the doctors. I don't know how long the whole examination lasted, but it
23 was sometime in the evening when I was taken home. Around midnight, I
24 would say.
25 Q. And after that time, you stayed at home for several months?
1 A. Yes. My leg was in a plaster. I could not move, and I had to
2 take the rehabilitation exercises.
3 Q. Directing your attention to paragraph 9 of your statement. In
4 paragraph 9 you stated that -- oh, I'm sorry.
5 Paragraph 9, that's correct. You stated you did not encounter
6 Vladimir Gojanovic on August 5th, 1995
7 Can you describe how you know Vladimir Gojanovic?
8 A. Yes. I know him personally because his mother and mine worked
9 for the same company. I know him as a child. I know his brother who had
10 been a very good friend of mine and comrade-in-arms ever since the start
11 of the war. I know his other brother. His wife was my class-mate in the
12 primary school. It's a small town; I simply know him.
13 Q. So when would have been the last time you saw him from August of
15 A. Do you mean --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the latter part of
17 the question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat?
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Sure.
20 Q. When was the last you would have seen him from -- that you can
21 recall from August of 1995, prior to August of 1995?
22 A. I don't remember. I don't recall him at all, seeing him at that
23 time. No, I didn't see him.
24 Q. When you were the political activity director of the unit, how
25 many men did you have under your command?
1 A. I was not a commander; I was an assistant commander. My duty was
2 not that of a commander but simply to prepare the men in my field.
3 However, I had received the task to prepare the men for combat. In other
4 words, I did not have a commanding duty.
5 Q. I just want to make sure that the question was clear.
6 Your statement in paragraph 2 says you were the assistant
7 commander of the Political Activity Department of the 2nd Battalion of
8 the HV 113th Brigade.
9 My question is: In that capacity, how many men did you have
10 working for you?
11 A. There were three of us, I believe. We worked together.
12 Q. And would that be three men in addition to yourself?
13 A. There was I and two others.
14 Q. And who were the two other individuals?
15 A. Zdenko Knezovic and Andjelko Zepna.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Zepina, interpreter's correction.
17 MS. DE LANDRI:
18 Q. And what were their responsibilities?
19 A. Same as mine.
20 Q. Would it be fair to say that you all shared the same rank?
21 A. I think we did, in fact. I'm not sure, but I believe that we had
22 the same rank.
23 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 13 of your
25 In paragraph 13 you say:
1 "As assistant commander of the Political Activity Department, and
2 as former commander of the reconnaissance company, and having commanded
3 units during the operation, I often communicated with other commanders,
4 led takeovers of units in positions, and I can say with certainty that I
5 did not see Vladimir Gojanovic as a member of any unit."
6 Can you tell us who the other commanders you communicated with,
7 that you referred to in paragraph 13?
8 A. With the commander of the reconnaissance company, the commander
9 of the 3rd Battalion, assistant for political activity of the 3rd
10 Battalion, commanders of the 1st Battalion. In other words, with all the
11 commanders who held positions, who were at positions.
12 Q. Can you tell us their names?
13 A. Commander of the 3rd Battalion, Dragan Rak. Assistant for
14 political activity, Boris Slavica -- the late Boris Slavica, he was
15 killed. The commander of the 1st Battalion was Emil Males. The command
16 of the reconnaissance company, Ivica Vuksic. Commander of the tank
17 battalion, Gojanovic -- I don't remember --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Bojanovic, interpreter's correction.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bojanovic. I don't recall his
20 first name. Commanders of companies: Drezgan, Djaja, Prolic. One of
21 them was called Bajulji commander of the tank platoon, Sudac. There were
22 other men whose names I can't recall now, but I'm certain I would
23 recognise them if I saw them.
24 MS. DE LANDRI:
25 Q. You mentioned an individual the -- Dragan Rak; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you been in contact with him since 1995?
3 A. As I said, Sibenik is a small town. We do come across each other
4 every now and then, have a drink together and have a talk, and so on.
5 Q. Have you had an opportunity to discuss your testimony with him
6 here today?
7 A. We came here together, but we did not touch upon these topics,
8 since we were not on our own. We were not, the two of us, alone.
9 Q. Since you gave your written statement in May of 1998 [sic] were
10 you also aware that he gave a written statement in connection with this
12 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I believe counsel means May of 2008.
13 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes, I apologise, you're correct.
14 Q. May of 2008.
15 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
16 Q. And did you discuss your statements at any time, between
17 May of 2008 and today?
18 A. We discussed our participation in Operation Storm in general
19 terms, but I'm not aware of the contents of his statement.
20 Q. You also mentioned a -- if I'm pronouncing the name correctly, a
21 Mr. Sudac; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And you're aware that he gave a statement in connection
24 with this case; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And have you seen him locally since August and September of 1995?
2 A. I didn't see that much of him because he is very busy and he does
3 not reside in Sibenik. He resides in Vodice, so I hardly ever see him.
4 Q. You testified earlier that the soldiers that were -- that you
5 instructed were given booklets in accordance with the -- or to instruct
6 them on the treatment of civilians, and that's also in your statement.
7 In your personal observation, did the soldiers who you came into
8 contact with act in accordance with those instructions?
9 A. Yes, I'm sure of that.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: I'd like the witness to be shown Defence
12 Exhibit 205.
13 Q. In particular, I'd like to direct your attention to
14 paragraph number 2, and the date on the document, which is August 12th.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And the document is an order signed by the commander, I
17 believe you mentioned previously, Danijel Kotlar. And paragraph 2
18 specifically says that:
19 "... all necessary measures are to be taken by the troops to
20 participate very actively in exhibiting military and disciplinary
21 behaviour and maintaining order in the zone of responsibility, preventing
22 arson, looting of property and all other illegal acts. Take stringent
23 disciplinary measures against perpetrators of such acts."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know why --
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
3 The witness may answer the question.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: I'm not sure --
5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I believe the question wasn't
6 completed yet.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Babacic, the portion that was read and the
8 portion that you see on -- in this order, the question was why this was
9 written in this order.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should put that question to the
11 person who drafted the document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you know, please, tell us; if you don't know,
13 tell us as well, but don't --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
17 MS. DE LANDRI: One more question, one follow-up question along
18 that line, if I may, Mr. President.
19 Q. Do you know why -- you were under the command of
20 Commander Kotlar; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know why he would have written such an order, if he had
23 not observed these acts being participated in?
24 A. Well, he probably wrote it down because he wanted to. I didn't
25 see any of those things happening. The date is the 12th of August.
1 Between the 10th and 14th of August I was on the state border beyond Srb.
2 I was holding positions there and had no contact with the remainder of
3 the units.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions,
5 so ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. De Landri.
7 Mr. Misetic, first of all, I had forgotten to ask but I think
8 there were no -- was no need for cross-examination by the other Defence
9 teams. Mr. Misetic, any need to re-examine the witness?
10 MR. MISETIC: I just had one question because I wasn't sure if
11 the witness understood the question. So it's related to the question and
12 answer at page 12, lines 19 to 22.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:
14 Q. Mr. Babacic, if I could just ask you, do you recall seeing
15 Vladimir Gojanovic at any time prior to the 1st of August, 1995? Did you
16 ever see him before the 1st of August, 1995?
17 A. Yes, I did. I certainly did. But it may have been in 1993 or
18 1994. But I did not see him wearing a uniform of the Croatian Army.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Babacic.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Babacic, I may have a few questions for you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Babacic, could you tell us how you were
24 approached for the purpose of giving a statement, the statement you gave
25 on the 8th of May, 2008
1 A. I think that a man came, by the name of Jozo, as early as 2006.
2 We had a meeting with a lawyer from the Defence team; I don't recall his
3 name. I only know that he passed away. And then in 2008, the man came
4 and asked me about my participation in the action.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said a meeting in 2006. A meeting, was
6 that just you and the person you just described, or were there other
7 persons as well?
8 A. No, no. There were several commanders there, but I recall only
9 that one lawyer. I don't know if he was from the ICTY or, rather, from
10 the OTP, or from the Defence. I don't even know that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you said there were several
12 commanders. Could you tell us approximately -- could you give us some
13 names and could you give us the number of persons present during this
14 meeting in 2006.
15 A. No, it was a brief meeting. There were several commanders, and I
16 don't recall all the names at this time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What did you discuss during this brief meeting?
18 A. Only our participation in Operation Storm.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it mentioned at that time that
20 Mr. Gojanovic may have given statements or that he might be a potential
21 witness before the --
22 A. No. We -- no.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So the name of Mr. Gojanovic was not mentioned at
24 all during that meeting?
25 A. No. It certainly was not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now before you gave your statement in 2008,
2 did you receive a phone call; did someone come to your place? What
3 happened before you gave that statement.
4 A. The individual came whom I gave my statement to. His name is
5 written there. He's called Jozo. I gave him the statement and that was
7 JUDGE ORIE: He came to your house?
8 A. Yes. He phoned me, and then we met up.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You met in your house and that's where you gave your
10 statement; or did you give your statement somewhere else?
11 A. No. I gave my statement on the premises of the HVIDRA, which is
12 the association of war veterans in Sibenik.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you seen any other person -- yes,
14 Mr. Misetic.
15 MR. MISETIC: I think there's a -- if he could explain what
16 HVIDRA is again, because I'm not certain that the ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll invite the witness to do that.
18 Could you again explain what the HVIDRA is or -- I may pronounce
19 it wrongly, but the organisation on which premises --
20 A. It's HVIDRA, the H-v-i-d-r-a is the association of the Croatian
21 war veterans, veterans of the homeland war. Or rather, the -- of the war
22 invalids of the homeland war.
23 JUDGE ORIE: When you gave your statement, did you see any other
24 person who may have been there for the purpose of giving a statement as
1 A. The office consisted of several rooms and I was giving my
2 statement in a room where I was alone with Jozo. There were several
3 individuals. There were more people in the other rooms on the premises
4 of the HVIDRA office and in front of the office itself. But I was giving
5 the statement on my own to the individual.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Did you speak to the other individuals before you
7 gave the statement?
8 A. Yes. But we didn't know what it was all about. We engaged in
10 JUDGE ORIE: And what did you guess?
11 A. We were guessing that it was about Operation Storm but we didn't
12 know exactly what.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Was the name Gojanovic mentioned at that point by
14 anyone, either Jozo who interviewed you, or any of the other persons
16 A. Only Jozo spoke to me. He asked me if I had ever seen Gojanovic
17 before. I told him that I knew him personally, but I didn't see him --
18 but I didn't see him there at that time. I think this is contained in my
19 statement. I would not have said it had he not asked me about it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm interested in to know is whether the name
21 of Mr. Gojanovic was mentioned at any point in time prior to the
22 interview taken by Jozo.
23 A. No. I didn't know anything about it, until I had that
25 JUDGE ORIE: On your statement, we find --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, that interview.
2 JUDGE ORIE: On your statement, we find that you're retired. Are
3 you a -- do you have no professional occupation at all at this moment?
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You just talked about, I think you were explaining
6 the organisation as the -- let me just check that. Are you a war
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for the answers, Mr. Babacic.
10 Is there any need to put further questions to the witness?
11 Then, Mr. Babacic, this concludes your testimony. I would like
12 to thank you very much for having come to the videolink room and for
13 having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by
14 the Bench. You are excused but I would like to instruct you, that if you
15 see anyone during this day who has come to the same place to give
16 testimony that you should not speak to that person.
17 Is that clear?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then thank you, and I wish you a safe return home.
20 Madam Registrar, the witness may leave the videolink room.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the representative of the registry in Zagreb
24 escort the next witness into the courtroom. I do understand that that
25 would be Radoslav Juricev Sudac.
1 MR. MISETIC: That's correct, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Will do, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness. Before you give evidence in
5 this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a
6 solemn declaration, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and
7 nothing but the truth.
8 The text will now you handed out to you by the representative of
9 the registry. May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: RADOSLAV JURICEV SUDAC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 [Witness testified via videolink]
15 Examination by Mr. Misetic:
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
17 I took it from what we see on our screen and what we hear that
18 you can see me and that you can hear me in a language that you
20 Could you please confirm that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Misetic.
23 Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
24 Mr. Misetic, you may proceed.
25 MR. MISETIC:
1 Q. Good morning, sir. Would you please state your full name for the
3 A. My name is Radoslav Juricev Sudac.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, if you could please show the
6 witness Exhibit D193, please.
7 Q. Mr. Juricev Sudac, do you see the statement in front of you?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to a representative of the
10 Gotovina Defence on the 12th of May, 2008?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And in the bottom right-hand corner of that statement, is that
13 your signature?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you had a chance to review the statement before coming to
16 court today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are there any changes or additional information that need to be
19 included in this statement?
20 A. No.
21 Q. At the time you gave this statement on the 12th of May, 2008, did
22 you give it to the best of your knowledge and in accordance with the
24 A. I still had a very good knowledge, and I spoke only the truth and
25 the whole truth.
1 Q. If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were
2 asked on the 12th of May, 2008, would you provide the same answers today
3 in court that you provided in this witness statement, dated the
4 12th of May, 2008?
5 A. Yes, of course, I would.
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, I move to admit into evidence
7 Exhibit D193.
8 MS. DE LANDRI: No objection, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, a number has already been assigned.
10 That is number D193.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: No objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 D193 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Juricev Sudac.
16 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Juricev Sudac, you will now be cross-examined by counsel for
19 the Prosecution.
20 Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:
21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you ready, Ms. De Landri, to cross-examine the
23 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Sudac, I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 4
2 of your statement.
3 Do you have that in front of you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. In paragraph 4, you refer to -- I believe I just want to
6 clarify. It's a -- the -- you say:
7 "The tank with which we had some engine problems (village
8 Pavasovici) T-34 didn't set out. The tank T-55, that was under my
9 personal command, was located at the starting point ..."
10 And then in the next full sentence you refer to --
11 A. Jankova kuca.
12 Q. -- you refer to a third tank which you also call T-55. Is that
13 an error?
14 A. No, it's not. There were two tanks. T-55 and one T-34 tank.
15 Each tank had a three-member crew, and my tank had a four-member crew,
16 because I was its first member, its commander. The commander of the
18 Q. Maybe it's just a typographical error but in the way that it's
19 written in paragraph 4 in the English translation, it refers to a third
21 Were there three tanks there on August 5th or two?
22 A. Yes. There were three tanks on my defence line. Two T-55 and
23 one T-34. But the last one was not in a good working order.
24 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
25 Directing your attention to paragraph 5. In paragraph 5, you've
2 "I know [sic] every man who was with me. I am certain ...
3 Vladimir Gojanovic was neither assigned to me nor that he was driving in
4 my tank. I am certain ... he was not [sic] in the tank at Gornje Bicane
6 Can you tell the Chamber how you know Vladimir Gojanovic?
7 A. As a resident of the county of Sibenik
8 have moved quite a lot. In the homeland war, I got to know him by sight.
9 I never got engaged in a conversation with him, but I knew him by sight
10 as a person. And as for your question, he was not assigned to me to that
11 unit because I would know him, and we would have talked. The gentleman
12 who brought the unit, Mr. Zafranovic did not bring Gojanovic with him.
13 Gojanovic was not there. He never drove on my of my tanks. He was never
14 in any of my tanks.
15 Q. When was the last time you saw Mr. Gojanovic?
16 A. The last time I saw Mr. Gojanovic was in Plodine shop in Vodice,
17 on the 27th of November, last year, in 2008.
18 Q. And prior to August or September of 1995, when would have been
19 the last time you saw him before then?
20 A. In 1995, I did not see him that often. I worked in the Croatian
21 Army as an officer. I did not have much time. My working hours were
22 from 7.00 in the morning to 4.00 in the afternoon. I had a lot of work
23 to do. I had a large family, and I spent most of the free time in my
24 home in Vodice, so I did not really see him that often.
25 I only learned that him and Mr. Petric took some money from my
1 association, and the late Bozo asked me to go to their house to retrieve
2 our money; but that hasn't happened to this day. We did not find them
3 there. We returned. I never saw him after that until the
4 27th of November, last year, in Vodice.
5 Q. Can you tell me in connection with your training in the army, did
6 you ever receive a booklet on conduct in accordance with the
8 A. Of course, we received those as officers. You're talking about a
9 small white booklet containing all the rules. All of us officers and
10 soldiers were well-informed and were aware of the Geneva Conventions. We
11 were provided with instructions that we then on -- conveyed to our
12 soldiers as to how to help a wounded or an imprisoned soldier. I
13 exchanged three imprisoned enemy soldiers for our two dead soldiers. We
14 did it together with UNPROFOR. There is a proof, documentary proof of
15 that. Those white booklets were also distributed before Operation Storm
16 across all units, all officers, non-commissioned officers, company
17 commanders. So as far as that knowledge is concerned, we were all
19 Q. Well, try to confine your answers to your experience now.
20 Tell me, if you can, as best you can recall, when you received
21 the booklet that you're describing.
22 A. I received the booklet even before Operation Storm. I was an
23 officer who was in charge of the training of younger soldiers, and I was
24 duty-bound to inform them about military rules. The first time I
25 received that booklet, as an officer, was in 1993, or, rather, in 1992,
1 in the month of November. That was the first time when I ever set my
2 eyes on that booklet.
3 At first, their shape was narrow and long, and later on they were
4 replaced by those white booklets. I can still picture the cover drawing
5 in my head with two soldiers. I'm no longer with the army. I have been
6 retired for five years, and that image is fading in my memory, but I can
7 still remember it.
8 Q. Can you tell us the substance of what was in the booklet?
9 A. Yes. That booklet contained a lot of rules as to what you were
10 supposed to do and what you were not allowed to do. How to administer
11 first aid to wounded or imprisoned soldiers according to the
12 Geneva Conventions, how to treat such soldiers, what to do with them.
13 Q. Can you be more specific than that? Can you tell us the
14 substance of the rules?
15 A. The substance of the rules was this: Such a soldier should not
16 be tortured, slaughtered, executed, abused, ill-treated. You should
17 treat such soldiers in a humane way.
18 Q. Is there any other substance you recall today?
19 A. Yes. For example, that you are not supposed to destroy churches,
20 religious or -- buildings, that those should not be destroyed. There was
21 a lot, but this is what I can remember. And I remember what our superior
22 officers were telling us. It was a war and we remembered the most
23 important things. Don't kill, don't loot, don't rape, help all those who
24 are wounded. Such basic things.
25 Q. Okay. Just ...
1 I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit -- Defence
2 Exhibit 205.
3 And would you take a moment to read paragraph 2, please, the
4 numbered paragraph 2.
5 And just I'd like to direct your attention to --
6 A. Yes, I can see that.
7 Q. -- direct your attention to the date, which, I think we can
8 agree, is August 12th; is that right?
9 And on the second page, the order is signed by Commander Kotlar.
10 Are you familiar with him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Of course, Danijel Kotlar, the commander who arrived from Zadar
14 was the commander of the 113th Brigade. Of course. He was our main
16 Q. Can you tell me if you personally observed during Operation Storm
17 any burning, looting, destruction of civilian property?
18 A. Since I was an artillery man [as interpreted], a tank would
19 always be at the forefront. Our forces advanced and the artillery
20 liberated the area. The tanks then moved on together with the infantry.
21 What was happening behind us, I don't know. I know that the houses were
22 burning, but it was somebody else who did that. It was not the troops
23 who did that because our troops were strictly forbidden from doing any
24 such thing. Our troops were strictly informed about all the facts.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if we could check the interpretation
2 with the witness of the first sentence of his answer. I'm not sure it
3 was accurately recorded -- or interpreted.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Witness, Ms. De Landri asked you whether you personally observed
6 during Operation Storm any burning, looting, destruction of civilian
7 property. And you started your answer by saying: "Since I was ..."
8 And could you, then, please repeat what you then said? Since you
9 were a ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on a tank. I was moving. I
11 advanced together with my troops. I don't know whether there was any
12 house burning. It was not my troops who did that. In any case, there
13 was no looting. There was no setting houses on fire when we were
14 advancing. I would not allow my troops to do such things as their
15 commander. I would never allow them -- allow them to do that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say, since I was an infantry man or an
17 artillery man? Or what did you say in the beginning of your answer?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was a tank commander. I was
19 on a tank and I progressed. I advanced. The artillery did their own
20 thing and the tanks were at the forefront of the advance, and they were
21 the ones who were paving the way and liberating the areas in front of the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that clarification.
24 Could I invite you to slow down your speed of speech so that the
25 interpreters have sufficient time to translate what you say and that the
1 transcribers have sufficient time to write it down.
2 MS. DE LANDRI: [Microphone not activated].
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, you may proceed.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Just to return to the exhibit, Defence Exhibit 205.
6 Do you know why Commander Kotlar would have issued that order,
7 and specifically the substance in paragraph 2?
8 A. Because Mr. Kotlar received such an order from his superior, and
9 that's how things go. And he just passed the order down to us
10 lower-ranking officers, in order for the war to go on in a correct,
11 composed, and fair manner.
12 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Nikola Rasic? Rasic, excuse
14 A. Yes, I know Mr. Nikola Rasic. We met sometime in October in
15 Vodice, when my first commander of the -- independent company Boban
16 Juricev Sudac brought him. That gentleman, I believe, was from Bosnia
17 and he moved to Tribun [phoen] because his wife was from there. Or maybe
18 they returned to Tribun to live there, I don't know. In any case, he
19 arrived to train us because we were not very well-informed about all the
20 weapon, and especially the rifle-mounted grenades. That training lasted
21 10 days. There were some 20 of us who underwent that training, maybe
22 25 of us. I'm not entirely sure. But I know that a lot of us did not
23 complete the training and that only very few of us rained in training
24 until the very end.
25 Q. You testified you met him in October. October of which year
1 would that have been?
2 A. In 1991, I believe, at the very beginning of the homeland war, I
3 would say. After the liberation of the Sibenik bridge, that's when he
4 arrived and joined our company.
5 Q. And was that company a special forces unit?
6 A. No. That unit was an element of the 3rd Battalion, or an
7 integral part thereof. The late Ante Juric Boban was the commander of
8 our 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Company of the independent company. The
9 independent company for Vodice. The Sibenik bridge was occupied at the
10 time. That's why we established a company consisting of volunteers from
11 Vodice. He was in charge of our company. He is deceased and Rasic moved
12 to Slavonia
13 MS. DE LANDRI: I would like to direct the witness's attention to
14 the -- 65 ter number is 7394, and the ERN number is E3346837, and ...
15 Q. Do you have that document in front of you?
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MS. DE LANDRI: The ERN number is 03346837.
18 Q. Do you have that document in front of you, sir?
19 Is that -- do you have it in front of you now, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. You see that's a statement given by Nikola Rasic to the
22 police in Zadar-Knin on October 12th, 1995; is that right?
23 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, just as a technical matter before the
24 witness answers, it is not a statement of the witness. It's an Official
25 Note of the interview.
1 JUDGE ORIE: There's a technical difference between a statement
2 and an Official Note. If you would use the word "Official Note."
3 Now, if we have verified that this is the document in front of
4 the witness, then there might be no need to ask him what the document
5 says and what we can read ourselves; that is, about dates. Of course,
6 unless you wanted to verify that he really has this document in front of
7 him. But, yes, you may proceed.
8 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Directing your attention to page 3 of the document. In
10 particular, the section where your name appears. Do you see your name
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Is that your name?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is there a reference to your belonging to a special forces
16 unit that Mr. Rasic was in?
17 A. Well, let me explain this to you, what is stated here.
18 Every company, brigade, or battalion always consisted of soldiers
19 who were abler soldiers and were more motivated to defend their country,
20 and not everyone was capable of waging a war.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that there was a break in
22 the witness's answer. Can he be asked to repeat.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Juricev, could you please repeat your answer
24 because the interpreters could not follow every word. Perhaps you -- you
1 "Every company, brigade, or battalion always consisted of
2 soldiers who were more able -- abler soldiers and were more motivated to
3 defend their country, and not everyone was ..."
4 And what did you then say?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were better trained and better
6 at handling weapons. That's why we had the gentleman called Zec, i.e.,
7 Nikola Rasic. He was the one who taught us how to fire grenades from
8 rifles. These were rifle launchers. We practiced with live ammunition.
9 We would fire, launch a hand-grenade or a rifle grenade at old household
10 appliances, et cetera, so we would not impact or the effect of the rifle
11 grenade was. We would mount the grenade on a rifle and fire it.
12 This sort of training took place over the course of 15 days. We
13 had to learn how to work our way through difficult terrain, woods, wading
14 through water. We had fitness exercises, and we had to go through all
15 these drills with Zec, who was a professionally trained soldier.
16 Q. Do you know why the term "dirty dozen" was used to refer to this
17 special unit?
18 A. Well, the expression "dirty dozen" came into usage after I left.
19 On the 29th of October, 1991, I joined an armoured mechanised company of
20 the 113th Brigade, as soon as the first tank reached Vodice.
21 Q. Can you tell me when was the last time that you spoke with
22 Mr. Zafranovic?
23 A. I spoke to him the last time in the Plodine shop on the 27th --
24 or, rather, that was just before the Christmas Day and the New Year's
25 Eve. I think it was roughly around the 27th of December, rather than
1 November. That was last year, and we met just before the Christmas Day,
2 we were doing Christmas shopping. And I don't know why he mentioned my
3 name at all and mentioned that he was part of my tank crew when he was
5 Q. Did you -- did the two of you discuss the statements that you
6 gave in connection with this case?
7 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I believe there's some confusion
8 with the witness and I don't believe he understood -- understood the name
9 that was posed in the last question, so I believe you might want to clear
10 that up.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: Okay. I will --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Would you -- would you please do that.
13 MS. DE LANDRI: -- do that with the next question. Thank you.
14 Just one second.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I, at the same time, ask you how much time
16 you'd still need, because we are already beyond the time we usually have
17 a break. If it would be a matter of just a couple of minutes, then it's
18 fine. If not, then we would have the break first.
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Just a few moments.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MS. DE LANDRI: Now, I want to go back to the earlier question
23 that I had asked the witness, Mr. President.
24 Q. My question was, and is, have you been in contact with
25 Mr. Zafranovic.
1 A. I was in contact with Mr. Zafranovic. I asked him why it was
2 that he mentioned my name, first and last name, and said that he was with
3 me on my tank when he did not take part in Storm at all.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: Mr. President, one procedural matter. The
5 document that I had been asking the witness about, it is actually an
6 exhibit, D1540. That was the police interview. I just want that to be
7 clear for the record.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Official Note so you will not tender it.
9 It's already in evidence.
10 MS. DE LANDRI: Right, thank you. I don't have any further
11 questions for the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Whether ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, any questions for the witness?
15 MR. MISETIC: No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to read again the document
17 which is on our screen before we make up our mind as to whether we have
18 any questions for the witness, but that would take too long.
19 Therefore, you are not yet excused. Then it may that be we have
20 some questions for you after the break; that's not certain yet. So would
21 you please remain there, and after the break we will inform you whether
22 there are any further questions or whether your testimony is concluded.
23 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Juricev, I have a few questions for you.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ORIE: You told us about the booklets that you received, an
4 early version already quite some years before Operation Storm, and then,
5 later, it was a different format. You told us that officers and
6 non-commissioned officers would receive that. Were they supposed, then,
7 to instruct the soldiers, or did the soldiers get their own copies of
8 those booklets? What happened?
9 A. Since the commanders of platoons, companies, and squads received
10 such booklets, the soldiers were familiar with them. They would be
11 photocopied, and they would receive instructions. Besides, soldiers were
12 told about the rules of war in -- during that training.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say they were photocopied. There was not
14 a sufficient number of booklets to be distributed among all the soldiers?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: An Official Note was shown to you, in which it is
17 described how you were selected to become a member of a special unit.
18 And I think you told us that you received some training. You told us
19 about grenades fired by rifles.
20 How long did you stay in that unit or -- if it was a real unit?
21 A. I spent a short period of time in that unit only, because I
22 became a part of the tank crew on the 28th of October, 1991, which is the
23 date when the first tank arrived in Vodice; this is something that I've
24 already said.
25 I was, therefore, a member of that unit -- no, sorry, it was on
1 the 29th of March. Wait. On the 18th of October, there was the capture.
2 It was on the 29th of November that I went to join that unit, whereas, on
3 the 18th of November, we captured three enemy soldiers in the village of
4 Cista Velika, and it was the first such instance of us having prisoners
5 of war.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And we are talking about what year at this moment?
7 A. 1991.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So only for a very short period of time you
9 were a member of that group or unit.
10 A. A very short period only. That particular unit existed for as
11 long as late Ante Juricev Boban was alive. As far as I remember, it
12 ceased to exist subsequently, and Mr. Zec left the unit later on.
13 Subsequently, two smaller units were formed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You testified today that you knew that houses were
15 burning but that you were moving forward in your tank and that you knew
16 for sure that it could not have been members of your army that would have
17 set fire to those houses because they were prohibited to do that.
18 Now, do you have any explanation as to how these houses were put
19 on fire? What -- do you know anything about it?
20 A. I am very poorly informed of these events.
21 It was summertime, and whenever a tracer bullet was fired, it was
22 quite possible for it to set hay or grass on fire. The situation was
23 such that there was always an exchange of fire, it was highly flammable,
24 and there was always a high possibility for a haystack or a hay barn to
25 be set on fire in the process. My soldiers were never allowed to act
1 without my command, without my orders, and I fought honourably and
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about your unit. Could you exclude
4 for the possibility instead -- for the possibility that other HV members
5 may have set houses on fire or may have looted or intentionally destroyed
6 civilian property?
7 A. To the best of my knowledge, nobody did that sort of thing in my
8 unit. I only remember in relation to Varivode, that there was some men
9 who were part of my group when we were undergoing training. I know what
10 they did, and I know that there was disciplinary punishment passed down
11 against them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to ask you a few questions about --
13 about your interview.
14 Could you tell us how you were approached prior to giving -- to
15 have given your statement in 2008, in May? Did you receive a phone call,
16 did someone come to your house, was it the first time that you were
17 approached? Could you give us a bit more details?
18 A. My first contact was with the president of the association of
19 invalids, Josko Babacic, who told me that Mr. Misetic's team would come
20 there on behalf of the Defence for General Gotovina. I volunteered to
21 provide a statement, if they would wish so, on their arrival. And they
22 arrived on the 17th of May, unless I'm mistaken. That was when I gave my
23 statement. And that was my first contact and encounter with them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you have not attended a meeting some years
25 before in 2006?
1 A. No, never.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, about your statement, did Mr. Babacic tell you
3 what -- what the issue was for which your statement would be important?
4 A. He didn't tell me anything. I didn't know what the team of
5 lawyers would tell me either, until we finally met and until they showed
6 me why it was that they were seeking to speak to me. They showed it to
7 me on their laptop.
8 When I saw that Vladimir Gojanovic gave a false statement, I said
9 that I had to confirm and say what I had to say personally, if necessary.
10 JUDGE ORIE: When did they show you the -- was it a video of
11 Mr. Gojanovic's testimony? What was it that they had shown you on the
13 A. I only saw his statement when he said in The Hague that he was
14 the one who had prevented the Croatian Army from committing genocide on
15 the Serbs and that he would testify against Croatia and the Generals. I
16 lied. I can guarantee 100 per cent that he was not with me, and I have
17 to tell you that we were an army that prevented any sort of genocide from
18 being committed against the Serbs.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I would like to hear more details about
20 what you saw.
21 Was this a video, first of all?
22 A. Well, yes, it was the ordinary video footage. I'm not quite sure
23 what it was. I'm not quite familiar with that sort of video. But I do
24 recall seeing Gojanovic testify in The Hague, in the courtroom in the
25 The Hague
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I hear of two things: First, you said
2 that you were shown a video in which Mr. Gojanovic said he would testify
3 in The Hague
4 A. That he testified.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see what you -- what is on the
6 transcript of what you said.
7 Yes, you said and I read one of your answers. You said:
8 "I only saw his statement when he said in The Hague that he was
9 the one who had prevented the Croatian Army from committing genocide on
10 the Serbs and that he would testify against Croatia and the Generals."
11 Now that is a bit of a confusing answer because it says when --
12 it says that --
13 A. That he testified against the Generals.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Was this shown to you before you gave your
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when, then, did they show this to you?
18 A. They had the footage on their laptop. The team of lawyers showed
19 me on their laptop that he had testified in The Hague against the
20 Generals. He said that he had been with me on the tank.
21 So they first had questions for me and then they showed it to me,
22 and I told them that he was not with me.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Was that on the same day when you gave your
24 statement, that they had shown it to you?
25 A. It was after a while that I saw the footage. I gave my
1 statement, and then I was shown the footage and asked whether I knew the
2 individual. I know him, and I know that he was not with me on the tank.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And that was on the same day that you gave your
4 statement that the video was shown to you?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: When did you become aware that your testimony was
7 specifically focussing on whether -- that your interview would focus on
8 Mr. Gojanovic, his role, in Operation Storm?
9 A. The odds were not 100 per cent that I would be testifying but
10 they wanted to confirm with me whether Gojanovic was telling the truth or
11 not. And then later, it was through a set of coincidences that I ended
12 up finally appearing before the Tribunal. And they told me that I should
13 only tell the truth, whether he was there or he was not there, and I can
14 confirm that he was not with me on the tank.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Babic tell you that it was about the role of
16 Mr. Gojanovic that there was a need to interview you?
17 A. We were not 100 percent sure but he told me that I should be
18 prepared and that I could possibly be summoned by The Hague, by the ICTY.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not my question. My question was
20 whether Mr. Babacic told you prior to your interview that it was about --
21 whether Mr. Gojanovic had told the truth, yes or no.
22 A. It didn't have to do with -- with Gojanovic telling the truth or
23 not. It had to do with the statement that he gave in The Hague. I was
24 supposed to confirm whether he was, indeed, with me on the tank or not,
25 and that was how Josko and I then knew later on what -- what happened.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Was Josko - that's Mr. Babacic - present when you
2 were interviewed?
3 A. Out of the team of lawyers?
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm just asking whether he was present during
5 your interview. You were interviewed?
6 A. Josko was present. He was the one who called me, and he was the
7 one through whom I got to meet the team of lawyers.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was he present when you were interviewed?
9 So, first of all, do you remember who interviewed you, who put the
10 questions to you when you gave your statement?
11 A. There were three members of the Defence team which were sent by
12 Mr. Misetic. There was Stomo [phoen], there was the late gentleman, and
13 the third one. I don't even know their names, to be honest.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So when you say there were three persons, do you
15 mean to say three persons apart from you?
16 A. There were three lawyers, members of Mr. Misetic's team. The
17 Defence team representing Mr. Ante Gotovina.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That is when you were interviewed. You're talking
19 about that interview?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was Mr. Babacic also present, apart from the
22 three lawyers?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Were you given any statement by Mr. Gojanovic to
25 read? Did you read any statement given by Mr. Gojanovic, or was just the
1 video shown to you?
2 A. First of all, I saw it on TV. I saw his false testimony. And I
3 was appalled when I saw that. Knowing Gojanovic, I immediately
4 remembered what sort of criminal he was. First he stole money from my
5 association, the association of Croatian veterans of the Croatian war of
6 the city of Vodice
7 this very day, he has not returned that money, and I immediately knew
8 what the whole matter was about.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Was it after you had seen his testimony on
10 television that you were approached by Mr. Babacic; or was it already
11 before you had seen this on television?
12 A. After. I already seen him on TV, and some 20 days after that,
13 Josko called me and told me that I should present myself to provide a
14 statement. I asked him who was coming, and he said, The team.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, what you saw on television, I just want
16 to be sure about that. Was it a kind of an interview Mr. Gojanovic gave,
17 or was it really his testimony in a courtroom in The Hague?
18 A. What I saw was his testimony in the courtroom, in The Hague.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Mr. Gojanovic, is he average
20 height? Is he a very tall man? Is he a small man? Could you tell us --
21 could you describe him?
22 A. Gojanovic is a tall person, heavily built. He weighs 120 to 130
23 kilos. He has short hair. His head is round. I know him personally.
24 His brother was a member of the 113th Brigade. He was with the signals
25 company. He was a signals man. I know his brother personally.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
2 Could we just switch off the speaker in Zagreb for a second? I
3 think that can be visible on the screen.
4 If you would wait for a second.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question, if I may?
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I ask you something? Hello.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Can you do that at a later moment, yes?
10 Microphone -- the witness now can't hear me anymore. One of
11 the --
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness then take his earphones off.
14 Are the parties aware of any testimony given by Mr. Gojanovic,
15 other than on the 16th and 18th of May, 2008?
16 MR. HEDARALY: We have 16 and 19 of May and we are not aware of
17 anything, Your Honour.
18 MR. MISETIC: I believe also in my records here he started on the
19 15th, if I'm not mistaken so ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But after the 12th.
21 MR. MISETIC: No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Because I would like to put that to the witness and
23 I want to be sure that I did not make any mistake.
24 Mr. Juricev, I extensively asked you questions about what you had
25 seen as testimony of Mr. Gojanovic and that you were invited after that
1 moment to give a statement.
2 If I would tell you that Mr. Gojanovic testified in this court
3 not before but after you had already given your statement on the 12th of
4 May, would you have any explanation to that? Because your testimony
5 clearly stated that Mr. Gojanovic -- you had seen him on television
6 testifying in The Hague
7 Chamber and the parties do agree that it was only after you'd given your
8 statement that Mr. Gojanovic could have appeared on television giving
9 testimony in The Hague
10 A. No, I don't know who made a mistake. I saw him on TV. And then
11 the team of lawyers came from The Hague, and they asked me about that
12 case, which means thereafter. I provided my statement after that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
14 I have no further questions.
15 Any questions?
16 MS. DE LANDRI: Yes, just one briefly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Ms. De Landri has a short question for you.
19 Further Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:
20 Q. Mr. Sudac, you gave your statement -- your written statement on
21 May 12th, 2008
22 you will pardon my pronunciation if I mispronounce, Jozo Ribicic; is that
23 right? Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In response to Judge Orie's questions, you referred to an
3 interview that was conducted by three members of the Defence team. When
4 was that conducted?
5 A. When that gentleman, Jozo Ribicic, was there, he signed the
6 document, and I did as well. And two more men came with him. Him and
7 two more people came.
8 Q. And were there two separate interviews or just one interview?
9 A. Just one.
10 Q. And are their names indicated on this document?
11 A. No.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Juricev, you earlier said that you would like to
14 ask me a question, although it is uncommon for a witness to ask
15 questions, I, nevertheless, would allow you to ask what you want to ask.
16 I'm not promising that I will answer your question. I'll first wait and
17 hear what you wanted to ask.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to make a correction.
19 I saw Mr. Gojanovic on the 27th of December, between Christmas and New
20 Year and that was in 2008. I wanted to make that correction.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can take that into account,
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank you as
2 JUDGE ORIE: It is on the record.
3 This concludes your testimony, Mr. Juricev. Mr. Juricev Sudac.
4 And I would like to thank you for coming to the videolink room and for
5 having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by
6 the Bench.
7 Could I ask the representative of the registry to escort the
8 witness out of the courtroom. And, at the same time -- but first, I'd
9 like to instruct you, Mr. Juricev Sudac. If there are any other people
10 in the premises where you are at present and who still may have to
11 testify, you should not speak to them. Neither should you speak to
12 anyone who has already testified today.
13 Is that clear?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the representative of the registry not only
16 escort Mr. Juricev Sudac out of the room but also escort Mr. Zafranovic
17 into that same room.
18 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Zafranovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Can you also see us in The Hague?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before you given evidence, I would like to invite
1 you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
2 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by
3 Madam Registrar.
4 Could you please make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please, be seated, Mr. Zafranovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zafranovic, you will first briefly be examined
10 by Mr. Misetic. Mr. Misetic is counsel for the Prosecution -- for the --
11 for Mr. Gotovina. I apologise, Mr. Misetic.
12 WITNESS: DAVOR ZAFRANOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 [Witness testified via videolink]
15 Examination by Mr. Misetic:
16 MR. MISETIC: No offence taken, Mr. President.
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zafranovic. Would you please state your full
18 name for the record.
19 A. Good morning. My name is Davor Zafranovic. My late father's
20 name is Joso.
21 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, if we could show the witness
22 Exhibit D203, please.
23 Q. Mr. Zafranovic, do you recall giving a statement to a
24 representative of the Gotovina Defence on the 12th of May, 2008?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And looking at the statement in front of you, is that the
2 statement that you signed on the 12th of May, 2008?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Is that your signature on the -- in the lower right-hand corner
5 of the first page?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. Have you had a chance to review this statement before coming to
8 the Tribunal's office in Zagreb
9 A. Yes, the day before yesterday.
10 Q. And do any changes need to be made to the statement or any
11 additional information added to the statement?
12 A. I would just like to add that Sudac, the head of the tank crew,
13 that we did what he said. Sometimes we went behind the tank, sometimes
14 we went in front of the tank, and sometimes we travelled on the tank
16 Q. Other than that information, is the statement accurate to the
17 best of your knowledge?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At the time you gave this statement to the Gotovina Defence, did
20 you give it to the best of your knowledge and in accordance with the
22 A. Well, my whole life is nothing but the truth, and I speak only
23 the truth and only what I know.
24 Q. Okay. Is that then, yes, that you gave a statement to the best
25 of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were
3 asked on the 12th of May, 2008, would your answers today in court be the
4 same as the answers you provided in your witness statement that is in
5 front of you right now?
6 A. Yes, they would be identical.
7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I move for the admission into evidence
8 of Exhibit D203.
9 MS. DE LANDRI: No objection, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D203 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. MISETIC:
12 Q. Mr. Zafranovic, thank you very much.
13 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, that concludes my direct
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
16 Mr. Zafranovic, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. De Landri.
17 Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:
21 Q. Mr. Zafranovic, you gave your statement in May of 2008; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And your statement related to events that occurred in August of
25 1995; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in the approximately 13 years that elapsed, did you discuss
3 those events with anyone?
4 A. Well, you know, whenever I meet with my commanders, in the past,
5 we did tell stories; but as time goes on, we meet less and less, and we
6 don't talk as much.
7 Q. Well, let me direct your attention to the statement itself and to
8 some of the individuals you identify in the statement.
9 Did you discuss the specifics of the statement with anyone in
10 that time-frame? I realize it's a very broad time-frame but ...
11 A. Well, it was last year when we discussed this event at somewhat
12 greater length, when Sudac and I provided our statements, that is.
13 Q. And when you say, When Sudac and I provided the statements, can
14 you describe the circumstances of -- of when you provided your
16 A. A representative of the Defence came to see us, and we were taken
17 to a room, just him and I, I believe that you will find it in here. I
18 gave my statement in the presence of that person. I don't know if it was
19 Misetic or somebody else. I don't know who it was.
20 Q. When you say - you said "us." Who are you referring to?
21 A. Just Sudac and myself were there, and Mr. Babacic. In the other
22 room I mean.
23 Q. During the time that you gave your statement, Sudac and Mr.
24 Babic [sic] was present?
25 MR. MISETIC: Objection, Your Honour. Mischaracterises the
1 witness's testimony.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I see the point you would like to further explore
3 but you can do it --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we get an answer anyhow. If you, please,
6 would further explore who was where, at what time so that we get full
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you.
10 Q. When you went to give your statement in this matter back in May
11 of 2008, you went with Sudac; is that right?
12 A. No. When I provided my statement, it was just me and the lawyer.
13 Prior to that, I was with the others, but during the actual statement, it
14 was just the two of us.
15 Q. Thank you. When you say "the others," who were you referring to?
16 A. Sudac was in a different room, in the other room, and he was
17 waiting there to be called to provide his statement after me.
18 Q. Where did this take place?
19 A. In the HVIDRA of Sibenik.
20 Q. And did the two of you travel to that building together?
21 A. No. I came by boat from Prvic, and from the harbour, I came to
22 that building on foot.
23 Q. When you went to the -- when you went to give the statement, did
24 you know that he was also coming to give a statement on the same day?
25 A. No, I didn't know, but I assumed.
1 Q. Why did you assume he was coming to give a statement at the same
3 A. Why did I assume? Because the operation involved the tank crew
4 headed by Vucanin [phoen]. There was myself and four or five other
5 combatants. We were either on the tank or around the tank.
6 Q. And who contacted you and asked you to give a statement?
7 A. I was aware of the statement, that Sibenik mentioned my name I
8 knew what that was all about. I knew that Gojanovic had testified, and I
9 was contacted by Babacic, I believe. I believe that he called me.
10 Q. When you say "Babacic," who are you referring to? Can you give
11 us a first name?
12 A. I call him Babacic. I know his name. I believe that his name is
13 Jole, but I really can't be sure. I know his name, but I can't remember.
14 Jole, I think.
15 Q. So were you interviewed after Mr. Gojanovic had testified in the
17 A. Yes. But my name was already mentioned in newspapers and on
18 Radio Sibenik by that time.
19 Q. And can you tell us in what regard your name was mentioned in the
20 newspapers and on the radio?
21 A. To be honest, I don't listen to Radio Sibenik. My sister told me
22 that my name had been mentioned on the radio. I don't know.
23 Q. What -- what did she or anyone else tell you about what was said
24 about you on the radio?
25 A. I believe that reference was made to Petric and Gojanovic and
1 then they mentioned me as a witness of genocide or, rather, of the way
2 genocide was prevented. Something to that effect, I think.
3 Q. Well, just to direct your attention again to your written
4 statement, and that's Exhibit D203. We can agree that the date that you
5 gave that statement was May 12th, 2008
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Okay. And if I told you that Vladimir Gojanovic testified in the
8 ICTY after that date, would you be able to explain the discrepancy?
9 A. Mind you, I wondered at Gojanovic mentioning my name at all. I
10 was in Operation Storm, I was on a tank on the 5th of August of the year.
11 And as for him testifying, I don't know if it was before or after.
12 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 10 of your
14 Take a moment to look at that.
15 A. I have.
16 Q. And it says on August 6th after we arrived in Bribir, we stayed
17 there overnight. The next morning at daylight my company took a one-day
19 Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So on August 6th, you are -- you had a day off ; is that correct?
22 A. Well, it -- we didn't have the entire day off, but, for the most
23 part, yes.
24 Q. Okay. The next sentence says, We returned on August 7th.
25 Can you recall what you did on August 7th?
1 A. On the 7th of August I was in prison, or, rather, in detention.
2 Q. And tell us the circumstances that led up to your imprisonment.
3 A. I can tell you about it.
4 On the 6th, a friend came to see me. We call him Drobonj, but
5 his last name is Slavica. He got me into his car and suggested that we
6 visit our -- or, rather, that we go and collect the mortal remains of our
7 friend, a fellow soldier. He said that he was one hand short, that he
8 needed someone to give him a hand. We came close to Skradin, along a
9 dirt road, and we found a hand, just a hand that had been burned. We
10 placed it in an island bag and took it to the local cemetery. However,
11 they would not agree at the local cemetery to bury the one hand, so we
12 went to Gorica, and we made arrangements for the hand to be placed in a
13 coffin so that my friend could receive a proper burial.
14 May I proceed?
15 Q. Certainly.
16 A. You see, I was 53 at the time of the Storm, and I was a proper
17 volunteer. I didn't receive a single call-up letter.
18 This person, his name is Garma, he was ten years my junior, and
19 he was closest to my age. All the other ones were kids for me, including
20 those who took part in Operation Storm. So I befriended him.
21 You see, I live on an island, and I was the president of the
22 local commune of the island there before I joined Operation Storm. So I
23 had to travel by boat and I arrived at 1530 there, and I planned on going
24 back by boat again on the following morning, and I had all my weapons and
25 my gear on me because I simply didn't have the time to drop them off in
1 the barracks, and I wanted to show up there a bit early.
2 So I wanted to be there early because I was their president.
3 As I arrived down there, some 30 or some 40 of them joined us and
4 we celebrated. We celebrated the Storm. So we stayed there until 12.30.
5 We were in a restaurant in Punta whereupon we proceeded to a bar where
6 they refused to serve us drinks. The barkeeper, the lady barkeeper,
7 would not give us drinks. It was 12.45 and the bar was officially opened
8 until 1.00, so it was 10 or 15 minutes before the closing time.
9 I got angry. You see, throughout that time, from Bribir to
10 Sibenik, wherever we stopped to have a drink, we would be served drinks.
11 In Poljane, for instance, we were not only served drinks but we were
12 greeted cordially and warmly by the ladies there as well, and you see, in
13 my own home town I was there with some friends of mine from Split and
14 from my fellow citizens of Prvic. We wouldn't be served drinks. So I
15 went home, and I fired a burst of fire in the area because I had heard
16 that the brother of the lady barkeeper was living nearby and was asleep,
17 so I simply wanted to wake him up. That was all.
18 I don't know what he was doing in Prvic. He was a senior officer
19 of the police, and I suppose he was there on a holiday. So what he did
20 then was that, when I went to bed, suddenly 17 policemen, some military,
21 some civilian policemen, surrounded my house, would that they had been
22 there together with us in Operation Storm rather than around my house [as
23 interpreted]. So a police boat arrived and took me to Poljane into
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, could you, please --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My command learned of the
2 developments --
3 MS. DE LANDRI:
4 Q. I just want to direct your attention to a document and ask you --
5 JUDGE ORIE: But --
6 MS. DE LANDRI: -- just about the circumstances.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No.
8 MS. DE LANDRI: Oh. Okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, would you please consider that the
10 interpreters need sometime to translate especially if the witness is
11 going very fast, and I would -- the Chamber would highly appreciate if
12 would you focus the witness --
13 MS. DE LANDRI: Certainly.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- and intervene whenever necessary to take him back
15 to what appears the most relevant things.
16 MS. DE LANDRI: Certainly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MS. DE LANDRI:
19 Q. Were you intoxicated at the time of your arrest on August 7th,
21 A. Well, what do you mean? Well, I was tipsy. I wasn't drunk. I
22 didn't resist them. I didn't get into -- pick up a fire [as interpreted]
23 with them. I went with them, and I suppose --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch what the witness
25 said last.
1 MS. DE LANDRI:
2 Q. My question was, were you intoxicated at the time of your arrest
3 on August 7th, 1995
4 A. No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, the interpreters informed us that
6 they did not catch the last words of the witness. The proper way is to
7 ask the witness to repeat those last words, not to have them disappear
8 from the record --
9 MS. DE LANDRI: I'm sorry.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- but putting the question again and giving
11 guidance to the witness that a yes or a no would do, which, in view of
12 his earlier answer, must seem to be clear already.
13 Mr. Zafranovic, you earlier said that you -- you went with the
14 police officers, and you said: "And I suppose ..." and then your words
15 are missing.
16 Could you repeat what you said when you said: "And I suppose."
17 You suppose what? I'm not seeking a long story but just what you
18 said earlier.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked if I had been drunk,
20 and my answer was, had I been drunk, I would have resisted them. They
21 would not have arrested me as easily as that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MS. DE LANDRI: I would like to direct the witness's attention to
24 65 ter 7345. And the ERN number, the first number is 04249656.
25 Q. I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 4.
1 Can you just take a look at that briefly?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be provided with a hard copy.
3 Ms. De Landri, could you repeat the number for the --
4 MS. DE LANDRI: Oh, certainly. It's -- the first page of
5 document is 04249656. And the paragraph I want to direct the witness's
6 attention to --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first try and find the document. If you look
8 at your screen, you will see what happens in Zagreb.
9 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I think if we can assist I believe
10 it is 65 ter 7395.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: That's right. That's right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri confirms that that's the right number.
13 Ms. De Landri, it's now the time to guide the witness to the
14 relevant --
15 MS. DE LANDRI:
16 Q. I would just like to direct your attention to paragraph 4 of the
18 Have you had an opportunity to review it?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, I take it that the witness needs a
20 bit more time, because I not even have read the paragraph.
21 MS. DE LANDRI:
22 Q. Okay. Have you had an opportunity to review the document, sir?
23 Not the document, excuse me, paragraph 4.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. Yes, paragraph 4.
2 Q. Okay. And does that refresh your memory about the event of
3 August 7th, 1995
4 A. Most of what is stated here is false. It wasn't 1.05; it was
5 12.45. The bar should not have closed yet.
6 Second, how it is that she can possibly know that I was under the
7 influence of alcohol. I may have been excited, I may have been
8 exhilarated since we had successfully done the first part of Storm.
9 MS. DE LANDRI: May I interrupt the witness?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. DE LANDRI:
12 Q. Okay. The part of the statement that says that you fired some
13 15 bullets into the air, and broke three tables, two chairs, two ceiling
14 lights, is that accurate, to the best of your recollection?
15 A. It was a burst of fire, not 15 rounds but over 25. And as for
16 the chairs and tables, they were not broken.
17 Q. Okay. And just -- you were later arrested, is it 4.00 a.m. in
18 the morning? Is that accurate? Several hours later?
19 A. Well, I don't know if was 3.00 or 4.00. I had already gone to
20 bed, and I was asleep.
21 Q. Okay. You were arrested at your home. Is that accurate?
22 A. Yes, I'm telling you that I was asleep.
23 Q. And that was on August 7th; correct?
24 A. Yes, on the 7th.
25 Q. And how long --
1 A. On the 7th of August, yes, night-time.
2 Q. And how long did you remain in custody?
3 A. 24 hours.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: I have no further questions of this witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Misetic?
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zafranovic, I would like to know a bit more
10 details about who approached you before you gave a statement in May 2008.
11 A. I think that it was Babacic who told me over the phone that I
12 should come to HVIDRA on such and such a day, at such and such an hour.
13 I think it was Babacic, Jole Babacic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did he tell you why your statement was
16 A. Well, I had already presumed, since this was already discussed,
17 it was general knowledge in the town. There was no need for him to give
18 me any explanations.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What was general knowledge in the town?
20 A. Well, only that Gojanovic was a witness of The Hague Tribunal and
21 that he mentioned me and Sudac as witnesses substantiating his testimony,
22 nothing else.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You said he mentioned you. Do you mean to say that
24 he mentioned your name in The Hague
1 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know the details. I know that my
2 friends called me and told me that they had heard my name mentioned on
3 Radio Sibenik.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier told us about your sister. You're now
5 telling us about your friends. Could you tell us who those friends were
6 and were they, in addition to your sister, telling you that your name
7 was --
8 A. Well, you see, my sister normally listens to the radio. She is
9 now 80. I don't know how old she was at the time. And she always
10 listens to the radio early on in the morning; I don't. So it was my
11 sister who phoned me about it. There was another friend who is
12 Gojanovic's neighbour. He lives just next door to Gojanovic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So they told you that Gojanovic had mentioned your
15 What was your reaction to that? How did you feel about that?
16 A. I know Gojanovic's late father very well. Frankly, I don't know
17 him. I probably saw him before, but I did see him afterwards, after him
18 giving the statement, and I know now that he is quite corpulent.
19 JUDGE ORIE: My question was, what did you feel about Gojanovic
20 mentioning your name?
21 A. Since not a single case smacking of genocide was something that I
22 ever witnessed during Storm, it did not really worry me, did not cause me
23 any concern.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any other concern; or were you just
25 convinced that he didn't tell the truth?
1 A. Well, you see, the 10 or 15 days that I spent during Storm, I met
2 an enormous amount of people at the very start, on the 5th, some of the
3 people I used to know I met in Gracac. Then some people that I went to
4 see because I knew that they stayed there, or their mothers, like the
5 Dragovic individual, then in Srb and in the surrounding villages. I even
6 gathered some 15 or 16 Serb civilians who were there and gave them food,
7 and this is something that I remember fondly. I asked them, Why didn't
8 all of you leave since everybody else left? And do you know what an old
9 lady told me? Dear sir, we are the wretched poor and they wouldn't take
10 us them with them.
11 On the second day, that same old lady told me when I asked her,
12 Why aren't you eating anything, you have lambs and other food, because
13 you see I brought them some lambs that I found. She told me, Comrade,
14 this belongings to other persons. So I was 53. And what sort of a fool
15 would I be to allow anyone to mistreat or kill those people?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could it that be Mr. Gojanovic had seen things
17 you had not seen?
18 A. Since, according to what he says, he was on the same tank that I
19 was on as a -- I think as a lance corporal or something, and I never saw
20 him, I don't know what gives him the right to talk about Oluja and his --
21 Storm and his participation therein.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did he not participate in Storm, or did he?
23 A. That's something that HVIDRA and those people there would know.
24 But as far as I'm concerned, he was not there on that day with me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'd like to go back to you giving your
2 You were told what Mr. Gojanovic -- or at least what was heard on
3 the radio by your friends. So what did you conclude from that, as far as
4 the subject of your statement would be? Do you expect it to be about
5 Mr. Gojanovic; or just about the events in Storm you participated in?
6 What was your impression at the time?
7 A. As I told you before, I didn't give Gojanovic any thought. I had
8 an idea that I would be giving my experience in Storm, and I can tell you
9 that nothing resembling genocide ever occurred there.
10 As for the setting houses on fire and looting of cattle, I can
11 tell that you it was somebody else other than Croatian soldiers who did
12 that. We were busy. We had our tasks. And, besides, we were also
13 afraid. We were not professional soldiers.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you there?
15 When you went to the -- did Mr. Babacic tell you where to go and
17 A. Do you mean last year or now?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Last year.
19 A. He only told me to come to the HVIDRA building. And then we went
20 to the notary public's office, and we signed our statement.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did he know the time you had to be in the HVIDRA
23 A. I don't think so. He told me to come on the first boat.
24 However, I didn't catch the first but a later boat.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you speak with any former members of your unit
1 before you gave your statement?
2 A. I told you that I reside on a small island just off the coast of
3 Sibenik, and information does not reach us as easily as they -- as it
4 does in town. It was in the middle of the tourist season and I had my
5 hands full of other things, and I didn't really occupy myself with all
6 sorts of stories that I heard, or could tell.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Once you arrived in the building, did you speak with
8 anyone about the statement, other than to the person that interviewed
10 A. I don't think so. Not only that I think that, I'm sure that I
11 didn't. As soon as I arrived there, I was taken to -- to a different
12 room, and the rest stayed in the other room. They closed a door behind
13 me, and I provided my statement there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said: "... the rest stayed in the other
15 room." Who was the rest?
16 A. Babacic, Sudac Juricev, the tank man, and I don't know if there
17 was anybody else from HVIDRA.
18 There was another person, but I don't remember who he was.
19 JUDGE ORIE: When you were interviewed in this room, was there
20 anyone else than you and the person that interviewed you?
21 A. I don't think so, no. It was his explicit request that there
22 should be just him and me. I was surprised to hear that. I thought that
23 maybe we could all be together, but he insisted it was just him and me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever see a video in relation with
25 Mr. Gojanovic's testimony?
1 A. Never.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't see it on television?
3 A. I saw him once on a programme called On Sunday at 2.00, when the
4 anchor, called Stankovic, interviewed him. And to be honest with you, he
5 looked like a imbecile to me, not like a normal intelligent person.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Did you watch this programme after you had given
7 your statement or prior to giving your statement, in 2008?
8 A. That was subsequently. And what appalled me the most, and that's
9 why I'm telling that he looked like a imbecile, when he said that him and
10 Petric established an association under the title "The Truth About the
11 Homeland War," and that the name-sake association existed in Bosnia
12 in Serbia
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. The reason why you
14 considered him to look like a imbecile are not of such relevance that we
15 would continue with that.
16 I have no further questions for you.
17 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further
18 questions to the witness?
19 Mr. Zafranovic, this concludes your testimony. I would like to
20 thank you very much for coming to the videolink facility and for having
21 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
22 Bench, and I would like to wish you a safe trip home again.
23 If could you just take off your earphones for a second.
24 Madam Registrar, could you, perhaps when you escort
25 Mr. Zafranovic out of the courtroom, could you please check whether
1 Mr. Babacic is still on the premises or not, because we might consider to
2 re-call him very briefly.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Will do, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If he is still on the premises, could you please ask
5 him to stay -- stand by.
6 We will first have a break, and we resume at five minutes to
7 1.00, and then I take it you will report to us whether Mr. Babacic is
8 still available.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Rak be escorted into the videolink room?
12 Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. Rak. Before you give evidence, I would
13 like to invite you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the
14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. May I?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Rak, please be seated.
21 Mr. Rak --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- I take it that you can see us and that can you
24 hear me in a language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Mr. Misetic.
2 Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
4 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 WITNESS: DRAGAN RAK
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 [Witness testified via videolink]
8 Examination by Mr. Misetic:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Would you please state your name for the
11 A. Dragan Rak.
12 MR. MISETIC: Madam Registrar, if we could, please, show the
13 witness Exhibit D197, please.
14 Q. Mr. Rak, do you recall giving a statement to members of the
15 Gotovina Defence on the 8th of May, 2008?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And looking through that document that you're now being shown, is
18 that the statement that you signed on the 8th of May, 2008?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. And is that your signature in the bottom right-hand corner of the
21 first page?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Prior to coming to the Tribunal's field office in Zagreb today,
24 did you have a chance to review the statement?
25 A. When I provided it on the 8th of May, 2008, it was clearly read
1 out to me. I read it myself, and I signed it.
2 Q. Since then, have you had a chance to look at that statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is the statement accurate, to the best of your knowledge?
5 A. It is accurate.
6 Q. Do you wish to make any changes or additions to your statement?
7 A. No.
8 Q. At the time you gave the statement, did you give it to the best
9 of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were
12 asked on the 8th of May, 2008, would you provide the same answers today
13 in court that you provided in your signed witness statement of the 8th of
14 May, 2008?
15 A. I would, indeed, the same.
16 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I move for the admission of D197
17 into evidence.
18 MS. DE LANDRI: No objection, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D197 is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. MISETIC:
21 Q. Mr. Rak, thank you for answering my questions.
22 MR. MISETIC: Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
24 Mr. Rak, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. De Landri.
25 Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.
1 You may proceed, Ms. De Landri.
2 MS. DE LANDRI: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:
4 Q. Mr. Rak, how many men were under your command when you were in
5 the 113th Brigade?
6 A. 860.
7 Q. And did you have a staff at that time?
8 A. A staff? A staff of a battalion? Yes, we had it in the
9 Bribirski Knezovi barracks.
10 Q. How many men were on the staff?
11 A. The battalion command comprised 14 men.
12 Q. Can you name the 14 men?
13 A. I don't remember their names.
14 Q. I want to direct your attention to the third full paragraph in
15 your statement, and in particular the events of August 4th that you refer
17 The statement refers to heavy enemy resistance, and -- pardon me.
18 I just want to strike that. And it refers to an attack that you
19 launched. Due to heavy enemy resistance, your attack deceased.
20 Do you recall that?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And at that time you had wounded soldiers and one dead soldier;
23 is that right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And you withdrew your soldiers to take care of your wounded; is
1 that right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. And would it be fair to say that, under the circumstances, the
4 welfare and safety of your men were uppermost in your mind?
5 A. Yes, that was the most important thing on my mind.
6 Q. And that would be true throughout all of Operation Storm,
7 wouldn't it?
8 A. Yes, right.
9 Q. Okay. Turning your attention to the events of August 5th, in the
10 fourth full paragraph. You led a renewed attack, you say you organised
11 quarters for your soldiers.
12 Can you recall approximately how many soldiers there were there?
13 A. On the entire axis, there were around 650 men altogether.
14 Q. And turning to August 6th. What happened on August 6th?
15 A. The line reached in the village of Bribir
16 The accommodation or the soldiers who just arrived was provided. They
17 arrived at the houses in Bribir. The soldiers were given time to rest,
18 and then they went home.
19 Q. Directing your attention to the last full paragraph of your
20 statement, where, in particular, you refer to Vladimir Gojanovic. You
21 state you know him personally from 1992 or 1993.
22 How did you meet him?
23 A. As far as I can remember, I met him at the Bribirski Knezovi
24 barracks in 1992 or 1993. He was introduced to me by his brother Ivica
25 Gojanovic, who was an officer of the Croatian Army, my colleague. I saw
1 him wearing a uniform that conscripts wore and I concluded that, at the
2 time, he was a conscript in the 113th Brigade. After that I never saw
3 him again. I did not see him during Operation Storm or the time
4 following Operation Storm while the unit was still in the theatre of war.
5 Q. You've described circumstances where you had a great deal of
6 responsibility under a lot of stress. Would it be fair to say that you
7 might not have been in a position to see all of the participants of
8 Operation Storm?
9 A. Of course. It was impossible to see everybody. It was
10 impossible to be everywhere at every moment. But the period from the 3rd
11 of August, 1995 to the 15th of September, 1995 is too long a time for me
12 not to see him, if he had been there.
13 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Court Exhibit 2.
14 Sir, do you have that document in front of you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Take a look at the first page. And can you tell me whether or
17 not that conflicts with your recollection about whether or not Vladimir
18 Gojanovic was involved in the military during Operation Storm in Croatia
19 A. I've not seen this before, and as far as I can remember, this
20 does not correspond the truth. It is not true that this person, the
21 person in question, was in my unit.
22 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt the authenticity of this
24 A. As to who drafted the document and as to whether it is
25 authenticate or not it is not up to me to say. This is down to a
1 different body, the institution that issues such documents. I was just a
3 Q. Well, could I direct your attention to the stamp on the bottom
4 right-hand of the first page?
5 JUDGE ORIE: If only the original and not the translation is
6 shown on the screen, could we have then the original also on our
7 manageable screens so that we can zoom in and out, if we want. Thank
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Talking about the English translation, there seems
11 to be no English translation.
12 MR. MISETIC: May I have the --
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 MR. MISETIC: Ask that the witness take his earphones off.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, the Court will recall that this
17 document came when Mr. Gojanovic, over a weekend, came to court, and the
18 reason it's a court exhibit is he had it faxed from someone -- from a
19 friend of his to his hotel here, I believe, and then tendered it as a
20 court exhibit in evidence himself. So if we're going to get into
21 questions of authenticity it traces back to Mr. Gojanovic himself. As
22 far as I know, it didn't come from the Republic of Croatia
23 the reason there is no translation is because it wasn't provided by one
24 of the parties.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so The Chamber should have been -- I further
1 find --
2 One second, please.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: There are some more puzzles in relation to this
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. DE LANDRI: Just to clarify a matter relating to the
8 translation, there was some colloquy on the record at the time when
9 Mr. Gojanovic first testified back in May of 2008, and counsel is
10 correct, that he brought this document with him. There was a discussion
11 on the record, I think, the page of the transcript was 3114 that the
12 registry was going have the document translated. But in anticipation of
13 asking some questions about the document, we provided a translation for
14 counsel and the Court. And so --
15 JUDGE ORIE: And where do I find it at this moment?
16 MS. DE LANDRI: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. It is right behind
17 the original B/C/S.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm working electronically.
19 MS. DE LANDRI: Oh, okay.
20 It's ET --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that the Chamber has only access to
22 documents that were exhibited and any attached translations but -- and I
23 do not have my in e-court system any attached translation to this
25 But perhaps Mr. Registrar is going to help us out.
1 Perhaps meanwhile you already proceed and we'll wait for the
2 assistance of the registrar. Oh, it's now on the screen.
3 Yes, please proceed.
4 MS. DE LANDRI: The witness, does he have his headphones on?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness been provided with a hard copy?
7 Then please proceed.
8 MS. DE LANDRI: He doesn't have his headset on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes, you're right.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. DE LANDRI:
12 Q. Sir, my question to you was: Do you have any reason to doubt the
13 authenticity of this document?
14 MR. MISETIC: It was asked and answered, Your Honour.
15 MS. DE LANDRI: No, I'm afraid it wasn't answered.
16 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated] Yes, it was.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check in the transcript. One second, please.
18 Yes, the witness answered that it's not for him to authenticate.
19 The question, however, was whether there were any reasons for him to
20 doubt the authenticity, which is not -- therefore, the answer is not a
21 direct answer.
22 You can ask the witness again.
23 MS. DE LANDRI:
24 Q. Sir, do you have any reason, looking at this document here today,
25 to doubt its authenticity?
1 A. The document doesn't indicate any units. I doubt the
2 authenticity of this document. My version of the truth and the truth is
3 that this gentleman was not in my battalion during Operation Storm.
4 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions about the circumstances of
5 your coming to testify here today and giving a statement.
6 Who asked you to give your statement? Directing your attention
7 back to May of 2008, who asked you to -- who originally approached you
8 and asked you to give a statement in May of 2008?
9 A. I was first approached by Josko Babacic. After that, gentleman
10 came who testified my witness statement. We were in the same room,
11 myself, Mr. Marin Ivanovic, and Mr. Jozo Ribicic.
12 Q. And when was that that?
13 A. That was on the day when I provided my statement.
14 Q. Just so the record is clear, were you contacted in advance of the
15 day that you provided your statement?
16 A. Josko Babacic.
17 Q. And when did that occur?
18 A. That was -- I can't remember exactly. A couple of days prior to
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 MS. DE LANDRI:
22 Q. To the best of your recollection, can you tell us what he said to
23 you when he first contacted you about this matter?
24 A. He said that that gentleman from the General's Defence team would
25 come, and that we would provide our statements about Operation Storm or,
1 rather, about the truth of what happened during Operation Storm.
2 Q. And what did you say in response?
3 A. That he would call me when the gentleman arrived and that we
4 would meet in the same rooms where I gave my statement to them.
5 Q. Mm-hmm. Before you gave your statement, did anyone show you any
6 documents related to the events that you were asked about?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So who was present when you gave your statement?
9 A. Mr. Marin Ivanovic and Jozo Ribicic.
10 Q. Okay. And what was the date?
11 A. The 8th of May.
12 Q. And were you told what the statement was going to be used for?
13 A. For the defence of the General.
14 Q. Any more specifically, were you told what the statement would be
15 used for?
16 A. No.
17 Q. In connection with your giving the statement, was the name
18 Vladimir Gojanovic mentioned?
19 A. The name of Vladimir Gojanovic was mentioned because I had
20 previously watched his testimony over the Internet.
21 Q. When you say you watched his testimony over the Internet, do you
22 recall when that was?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was it before you gave your statement?
25 A. Well, yes.
1 Q. And the date that you gave your statement was May 8th, 2008; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it's your testimony that you watched his testimony here at
5 the ICTY before you gave your statement; is that right?
6 A. I was following it. I don't remember when it was.
7 Q. So were you mistaken when you just testified that you watched it
8 before you gave your statement?
9 A. That's what I believe.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MS. DE LANDRI: Mr. President, I have no further questions of
12 this witness. Just one housekeeping matter. Can we have in the record
13 the translation of that military record linked to the exhibit number?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'll say something about this exhibit in a
16 MS. DE LANDRI: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But we'll have that done.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rak, I have a few questions for you.
21 You said Mr. Babacic contacted you. It was that your --
22 A. Yes --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- statement was needed. Did you speak with him
24 about the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic?
25 A. We spoke about our memories of the action during Operation Storm.
1 And it wasn't easy to recall all the events, since a great many years
2 have passed.
3 He told me that Mr. Gojanovic had given a statement or his
4 testimony, whether it was over the Internet or what, that he was a member
5 of my unit and he asked whether I remembered him. And that's how my
6 statement was produced, where I said that, to the best of my
7 recollection, he was not part of the action or a member of my unit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now could you tell us in more detail when did
9 Mr. Babacic approach you? Was that the day on which you gave the
10 statement, or the day before, or two days before; could you tell us?
11 A. Earlier on. That was several days earlier.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it was by telephone that you got in touch;
13 or did he come to your place?
14 A. As far as I remember, it happened in Sibenik.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you remember whether it was by
16 telephone or whether you met in person?
17 A. We met.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Was it at that occasion that you discussed the
19 untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic's -- his reports about being a member of
20 your unit?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Babacic make any link between the need to
23 have a statement and the, as you said -- or at least as -- the
24 untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic -- well, please, please. Please.
25 A. We discussed it and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If we speak at the same time, the interpreters and
2 transcribers will not be able to put everything on the record.
3 So did Mr. Babacic explain to you that your statement was needed
4 in relation to this -- what he considered to be an untruthful testimony
5 or statement by Mr. Gojanovic?
6 A. No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, as you said, you discussed the
8 untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic, if I understood you well.
9 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I don't -- I must interject. I
10 don't believe that was said.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just, then, check exactly on the record what
12 was said. One second, I have to find it.
13 Yes, you discussed, as you told us, you said that Mr. Babacic
14 told you that Mr. Gojanovic had given a statement on his testimony
15 whether, over the Internet, or what, and he was a member of my unit and
16 he had asked you whether he remembered -- I take it, you remembered him.
17 To the best of your recollection, he was not part of the action or a
18 member of your unit.
19 So did I understand you well, that Mr. Babacic told you that
20 Mr. Gojanovic had said that he had been a member of your unit and asked
21 you whether your recollection was the same?
22 Is that what you discussed?
23 A. This is what the conversation was like. That he had given a
24 statement with what he said; whereas, my statement was based solely on my
25 memory of these events. It was not the result of anybody exerting any
1 sort of pressure or influence over me. It was purely the result of my
3 JUDGE ORIE: And you told Mr. Babacic at that time that you had
4 no recollection of Mr. Gojanovic being a member of your unit. Did you
5 tell him at that time; or did you wait until you gave your statement?
6 A. I told him at the time that I did not remember him from the
7 period of Operation Storm as a member of my unit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Babacic tell you whether this would or would
9 not be -- or would not be a specific subject your interview?
10 A. He didn't know that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You earlier said that you followed the proceedings
12 through Internet. I'm not quite sure whether you, at a later stage --
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- withdrew that or whether you had personally seen
15 Mr. Gojanovic's testimony before this Tribunal through the Internet.
16 A. Yes, I watched him.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did it upset you what he said?
18 A. In view of the fact that, to the best of my recollection, what he
19 said were lies, yes, it did.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say "lies," you would include that he
21 had been a member of your unit?
22 A. He was not a member of my unit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. But my question was whether that part of his
24 testimony also upset you.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did the testimony you watched through the Internet,
2 was this in any way encouraging you to give a statement or ...
3 A. I felt the duty to tell the truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Because Mr. Gojanovic had not told the truth. Is
5 that how I have to understand your explanation?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rak, if I would tell you that Mr. Gojanovic
8 testified before this Court well after you had given your statement,
9 could you explain your answers, in light of this fact which seems to be
10 not in dispute between the parties and for which there is substantial
12 A. I don't understand the question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Rak, you explained to us how the statement
14 of Mr. Gojanovic upset you and that it encouraged you to -- to give a
15 statement and that you had seen his testimony before you gave that
16 statement; whereas, in this courtroom --
17 MR. MISETIC: I apologise, Mr. President, but the witness's
18 answer to your question was that it encouraged him to tell the truth. "I
19 felt the duty to tell the truth," not I felt a duty to give a statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked him whether it encouraged him to give
21 a statement. The question was about that.
22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, but his answer is --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's --
24 Let me keep it, then, short.
25 Mr. Gojanovic testified in this court well after the day you have
1 given your statement. Could you reconcile that with the answers you have
2 given to the questions that were put to you?
3 A. I don't understand the question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I took it from your answers that you had
5 already seen and heard the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic before you gave
6 your statement.
7 Is that correctly understood?
8 A. I don't understand you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's keep matters short.
10 From your answers, I took it that you, first, followed, through
11 the Internet, the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic; and that, after that, you
12 gave your statement on the 8th of May.
13 Is that correctly understood?
14 A. I gave the statement about Operation Storm in the course of -- of
15 the operation chronologically on the 8th of May.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But that was not my question. My question was
17 whether you gave your statement after you'd heard and seen the testimony
18 of Mr. Gojanovic.
19 A. I don't remember.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check your previous answers.
21 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, it's page 79, lines 21 to 23.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think there is more than just one, but ...
23 MR. HEDARALY: There's also a reference at page 83 about the
24 encouragement of the testimony, which, I think, is what Your Honour was
25 referring to.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's not further discuss in the presence of
2 the witness.
3 Yes, Mr. Rak, we'll carefully read again your testimony. The
4 issue was that I understood from your answers that you had seen the
5 testimony of Mr. Gojanovic which did upset you, because you said he gave
6 lies and that when I asked you that, that that encouraged you. And then
7 you said: "It encouraged me to tell the truth."
8 Do you mean to say that it encouraged you to tell the truth in
9 your statement, when being interviewed?
10 A. When the interview was held with me, I only told the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you said it encouraged you to tell
12 the truth, did you mean to say that it encouraged you to tell the truth,
13 as you said you did, during the interview?
14 A. Yes. I was telling the truth when the interview was held with
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were encouraged to do so because you
17 had heard the lies of Mr. Gojanovic. Is that how I have to understand
18 your --
19 Mr. Misetic.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. MISETIC: I don't think the witness knows there's a question
22 pending to him.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think --
24 You have not answered my last question. Would you please do so?
25 Or if you want me to repeat it, then I'll do so. Mr. Rak?
1 A. Can you please repeat it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'll repeat my question.
3 You told me that you were telling the truth when the interview
4 was held with you. And then I asked you -- and whether you were
5 encouraged to do so because you had heard the lies of Mr. Gojanovic.
6 A. My statement would have been truthful, just as it is now,
7 regardless of Gojanovic's statements.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not my question. You apparently are
9 evading to answer my question.
10 A. I don't understand.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll then put the question in a different way.
12 You earlier said that the false statement of Mr. Gojanovic
13 encouraged you to tell the truth. Where did you then tell the truth,
14 having become aware of the lies of Mr. Gojanovic?
15 A. In relation to his statement that he was a member of my unit, I
16 answered that. That's -- that's why I stated the truth in my statement.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: I've no further questions for you, Mr. Rak.
19 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need to --
20 MR. MISETIC: May I just ask one question, Mr. President?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. Let me -- one second, please.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:
1 Q. Mr. Rak, I just want to make sure we're clear: Do you know or do
2 you recall whether you gave your statement to the Gotovina Defence before
3 or after Mr. Gojanovic testified here in The Hague?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no further questions.
8 MS. DE LANDRI: Nothing --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. De Landri, also no further questions for you.
10 MS. DE LANDRI: No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rak, I'd like to thank you for coming to the
12 videolink room and for having answered the questions that were put to you
13 by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: For the parties to know that the Chamber, although
16 considering to re-call one of the other witnesses, the witness is not
17 available on the premises anymore. For that reason, the Chamber refrains
18 from doing so; at least for this moment.
19 This concludes the videolink.
20 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: I know we're running late, Mr. President, so should
23 we tomorrow move in the remaining exhibits under 92 bis.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We could do that.
25 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: There's no problem with that. And I don't know
2 whether you have tendered all the documents you have shown,
3 Ms. De Landri. I'm not quite sure. It could be you have, but I'm not
4 certain about it.
5 MS. DE LANDRI: I don't think so, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll deal with that also at the earliest
7 occasion, and I have already stolen 15 minutes from interpreters,
8 transcribers, security, everyone, and, of course, the parties.
9 Therefore, we will adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday,
10 the 10th of September, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom III.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
13 September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.