Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21339

 1                           Wednesday, 9 September 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             We'll hear the testimony of four witnesses through videolink

12     today.  Until now, we have received no applications for protective

13     measures.  Would that still be the situation?

14             MR. MISETIC:  That is correct, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And I was informed that we'll start with

16     Mr. Babacic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  That is correct, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Then could we first establish whether the videolink is properly

20     functioning.  I can see the representative of the registry in, I take it,

21     Belgrade.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Good morning, Your Honours, this

23     is the registrar representative in Zagreb.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In Zagreb, yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  [Via videolink]  And we hear you fine and see you

Page 21340

 1     fine.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And the same is true in the opposite direction.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think the proper procedure would be that

 5     since the witnesses move from 92 bis to 92 ter that we first get the

 6     attestations, Mr. Misetic.

 7             Are you ready to call the first witness?

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I am, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, in Zagreb, would you be so

10     kind to escort or have Mr. Babacic being escorted into the courtroom or

11     at least in your room, and could you confirm that apart from the

12     technician and yourself there is no one present in that room.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  I confirm that, Your Honour.

14     It's only myself and the technician.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Could you, please, see that Mr. Babacic

16     enters the courtroom.

17             Good morning, Mr. Babacic.  Can you see me and can you hear me in

18     a language you understand.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you also can hear me, I take it, from your

21     answer in a language you understand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Babacic, before you give evidence the Rules of

24     Procedure and Evidence require that you make a -- that you give a solemn

25     declaration, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

Page 21341

 1     but the truth.

 2             The text of that solemn declaration is now handed out to you by

 3     the representative of the registry.  May I invite you to make that solemn

 4     declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Babacic.  Please be seated.

 8                           WITNESS:  JOSKO BABACIC

 9                           [Witness testified through interpreter]

10                           [Witness testified via videolink]

11                           Examination by Mr. Misetic:

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Babacic, you will first be briefly examined by

13     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

14             Mr. Misetic, please, proceed.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Babacic.  Would you please state your full name

17     for the record.

18        A.   Good morning.  Josko Babacic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  And, Madam Registrar, if we could show the witness

20     Exhibit D200, please.  And if we could have that on the screen.

21        Q.   Mr. Babacic, do you recall giving a statement to the Gotovina

22     Defence and signing that statement on the 8th of May, 2008?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And is that your signature in the bottom right-hand corner of

25     that statement that's in front of you?

Page 21342

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Have you had a chance to review this statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Are there any changes or additions that need to be made to the

 5     statement?

 6        A.   No, there's no need.

 7        Q.   At the time you gave the statement, did you give it to the best

 8     of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court, would provide

11     the same answers today in court that you provided to investigators of the

12     Gotovina Defence on the 8th of May, 2008?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I move to admit Exhibit D200 into

15     evidence.

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone, could you please activate your

18     microphone.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.  No objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. De Landri.  A number had already been

21     assigned, Mr. Registrar.  Therefore, D200 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my direct

23     examination.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Babacic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

Page 21343

 1             Ms. De Landri, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 2             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Babacic, you will now be cross-examined by

 4     Ms. De Landri.  Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Ms. De Landri.

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Babacic, you gave your statement on May 8th of 2008; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And your statement pertains to events that occurred in August and

12     September of 1995; is that correct?

13        A.   Just the month of August.

14        Q.   And I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 2 of your

15     statement.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to look at paragraph 2?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You were the assistant commander of the Political Activity

20     Department of the 2nd Battalion of the 113th Brigade; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you describe what your duties as the assistant commander of

23     the Political Activity Department were?

24        A.   My duties were to prepare soldiers, to talk to them, sometimes

25     disciplinary measures.  In any case, maintaining the state of morale.

Page 21344

 1        Q.   And also directing your attention to paragraph 2, you stated:

 2     "The 2nd Infantry Battalion was comprised of conscripts."

 3             Can you name some of those conscripts?

 4        A.   I no longer remember.  I know Filipovic, Grbic.  There were

 5     hundreds of soldiers throughout all that time, the conscripts changed, so

 6     I can't be sure of their names.  We're talking hundreds of soldiers who

 7     went through the unit.

 8        Q.   And directing your attention to paragraph 5 of your statement.

 9     In paragraph 5, you stated that the brigade commander ordered that,

10     "... preparations, for the treatment of civilians and POWs be given."

11             Can you tell us who the brigade commander was who gave that

12     order?

13        A.   Danijel Kotlar was the commander.  But this was not preparation

14     for the treatment of prisoners of war but, rather, instructions to the

15     soldiers as to how behave in combat, how to treat civilians, the wounded,

16     and they were distributed booklets where they could find all that.  First

17     of all, the soldiers provide -- were given explanations.  The booklet was

18     read out to them and then they were distributed, the booklets which

19     contained instructions issued by the Red Cross.  Each and every one of

20     them was given this booklet which contained the instructions by the Red

21     Cross and the Geneva Conventions.

22        Q.   Just so I'm clear on your answer, you do not recall who the

23     brigade commander was who gave those instructions that I asked about?

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 21345

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that.  I remember that

 2     Danijel Kotlar was the brigade commander.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It was -- that was the beginning of the previous

 4     answer.

 5             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us where the preparations were conducted?

 7        A.   The preparations were conducted in a village called Velim in

 8     Stampoti, and we followed those items, and on that day, we launched the

 9     operation, all of the soldiers in my unit were comprised with the

10     preparations and instructions.

11        Q.   And directing your attention to paragraph 6 of your statement,

12     you said that all soldiers received a booklet on conduct in accordance

13     with the Geneva Conventions.

14             Is that correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Did you personally observe soldiers receiving those booklets?

17        A.   I distributed the booklets myself.

18        Q.   And was that on August 4th, 1995?

19        A.   On the 3rd of August.

20        Q.   Who prepared the booklets?

21        A.   They arrived from the brigade command.  I don't know who had

22     prepared them.  I received them from the brigade command.

23        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to direct your attention now to paragraph 9 of

24     your statement.

25             Do you have paragraph 9 in front of you, sir?

Page 21346

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 9 you stated:

 3             "We had a meeting with members of the reconnaissance company in

 4     the village of Bribirske."

 5             How many men attended that meeting; do you recall?

 6        A.   That was not a meeting.  This is when the units linked up.  My

 7     unit linked up with the reconnaissance company that had arrived from a

 8     different directions.  This was the point where our two units linked up.

 9     It was not a meeting.

10        Q.   So -- so I -- just to clarify your answer.  There -- there was

11     not a meeting?

12        A.   Yes, we did meet, but it was my unit linking up with another

13     unit.  My unit had over 200 men and the reconnaissance company had about

14     30 men.  There were tanks there, and there were some 30 men who had

15     arrived as members of the reconnaissance company.  They had arrived from

16     a different direction, and that's where our two units met.

17        Q.   Can you name any of the individuals who attended that meeting?

18             MR. MISETIC:  I object to the form.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You're referring to a meeting where the witness just

20     testified there was no meeting, Ms. De Landri.  So perhaps you asked the

21     witness whether he knew anyone of the units that met at that point in

22     time.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you understood the question, Mr. Babacic?  The

25     question being whether you could name any of the members of the units

Page 21347

 1     that met at that moment in time at that place.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was the commander of that

 3     reconnaissance company two months before that, and I knew all the men

 4     from that company.  And I also knew all the men from my unit and all of

 5     my commanders were with me, and I can give you all of their names, if you

 6     want me to do so.

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Let me say -- do you want me to give you the names of the men

10     from my unit or from the reconnaissance company?  Which names do you want

11     me to give you?

12        Q.   Tell us the names as best you can recall from the men who were

13     there at the gathering, not meeting, as I incorrectly stated.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness asked whether he should give the

15     names only of his unit or of the reconnaissance unit, which met with his

16     units at the time, the reconnaissance unit which he had had command over

17     before.

18             Both units or ...

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Both, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivica Mikulandra, the battalion

22     commander then Miljanic Robano [phoen], Ruzic --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  For the transcribers to follow, could

24     you give them one by one and slowly.  So could you first focus on your

25     own unit and then give us the first name that comes to your mind.

Page 21348

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  The battalion commander

 2     Ivica Mikulandra from my unit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Carefully look at Ms. De Landri because she'll give

 4     you a sign when she expects you to -- the next name to be mentioned.

 5             Next one, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Miljanic, the company commander.

 7     Banovac, the company commander.  Ruzic, the company commander.  Strunje,

 8     a platoon commander.  Colak, a platoon commander.  Zura, a platoon

 9     commander.  These are the names of some of the commanders of companies in

10     my battalion and there was also me at the forefront.  And the person I

11     met first was Krsto Friganovic from the reconnaissance company.  There

12     was also Zeljko Kulusic in that unit.  Dubravko Ivetic was another man

13     from that company.  Vrlika.  What do I know?  I really can't remember any

14     more names, but I can recall their faces very well and I knew all the men

15     that were there.

16             Vuksic was the commander of the reconnaissance company, I just

17     remembered.

18             MS. DE LANDRI:

19        Q.   I'm directing your attention to paragraph 11 of your statement,

20     on August 14th, it says:

21             "We conducted heavy offensive activities in the areas of Trubar

22     and Babici and we seized the said villages the same evening."

23             Can you recall anyone who was there at the time, any of the other

24     men who were there during that occurrence?

25        A.   The same members of the units that I just mentioned.  And I'm

Page 21349

 1     talking only about my unit, because the reconnaissance unit was not with

 2     us in that territory.

 3        Q.   Directing your attention to paragraph 12 of your statement.  You

 4     stated on August 15th of 1995 you were wounded, is that correct, and

 5     taken to a medical centre?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   What type of wound did you suffer?

 8        A.   I suffered a wound in the left hand, from hand-grenade shrapnel

 9     and a fracture of my left leg.

10        Q.   How long did you stay in the medical centre?

11        A.   I was just -- I received first aid at the medical centre, and

12     then I was discharged and stayed at home for a few months.

13        Q.   Did you stay in the hospital overnight?

14        A.   You mean the night between the 15th and the 16th?

15        Q.   Any night.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   But when -- when was the time that you went home for a few months

18     because of your wounds?

19        A.   I was wounded around 11.00, and around 1300 hours I was put into

20     a car.  The journey to Sibenik took about two or three hours.  In the

21     afternoon on the 15th, I arrived at the hospital where I was examined by

22     the doctors.  I don't know how long the whole examination lasted, but it

23     was sometime in the evening when I was taken home.  Around midnight, I

24     would say.

25        Q.   And after that time, you stayed at home for several months?

Page 21350

 1        A.   Yes.  My leg was in a plaster.  I could not move, and I had to

 2     take the rehabilitation exercises.

 3        Q.   Directing your attention to paragraph 9 of your statement.  In

 4     paragraph 9 you stated that -- oh, I'm sorry.

 5             Paragraph 9, that's correct.  You stated you did not encounter

 6     Vladimir Gojanovic on August 5th, 1995.

 7             Can you describe how you know Vladimir Gojanovic?

 8        A.   Yes.  I know him personally because his mother and mine worked

 9     for the same company.  I know him as a child.  I know his brother who had

10     been a very good friend of mine and comrade-in-arms ever since the start

11     of the war.  I know his other brother.  His wife was my class-mate in the

12     primary school.  It's a small town; I simply know him.

13        Q.   So when would have been the last time you saw him from August of

14     1995?

15        A.   Do you mean --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the latter part of

17     the question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat?

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Sure.

20        Q.   When was the last you would have seen him from -- that you can

21     recall from August of 1995, prior to August of 1995?

22        A.   I don't remember.  I don't recall him at all, seeing him at that

23     time.  No, I didn't see him.

24        Q.   When you were the political activity director of the unit, how

25     many men did you have under your command?

Page 21351

 1        A.   I was not a commander; I was an assistant commander.  My duty was

 2     not that of a commander but simply to prepare the men in my field.

 3     However, I had received the task to prepare the men for combat.  In other

 4     words, I did not have a commanding duty.

 5        Q.   I just want to make sure that the question was clear.

 6             Your statement in paragraph 2 says you were the assistant

 7     commander of the Political Activity Department of the 2nd Battalion of

 8     the HV 113th Brigade.

 9             My question is:  In that capacity, how many men did you have

10     working for you?

11        A.   There were three of us, I believe.  We worked together.

12        Q.   And would that be three men in addition to yourself?

13        A.   There was I and two others.

14        Q.   And who were the two other individuals?

15        A.   Zdenko Knezovic and Andjelko Zepna.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Zepina, interpreter's correction.

17             MS. DE LANDRI:

18        Q.   And what were their responsibilities?

19        A.   Same as mine.

20        Q.   Would it be fair to say that you all shared the same rank?

21        A.   I think we did, in fact.  I'm not sure, but I believe that we had

22     the same rank.

23        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 13 of your

24     statement.

25             In paragraph 13 you say:

Page 21352

 1             "As assistant commander of the Political Activity Department, and

 2     as former commander of the reconnaissance company, and having commanded

 3     units during the operation, I often communicated with other commanders,

 4     led takeovers of units in positions, and I can say with certainty that I

 5     did not see Vladimir Gojanovic as a member of any unit."

 6             Can you tell us who the other commanders you communicated with,

 7     that you referred to in paragraph 13?

 8        A.   With the commander of the reconnaissance company, the commander

 9     of the 3rd Battalion, assistant for political activity of the 3rd

10     Battalion, commanders of the 1st Battalion.  In other words, with all the

11     commanders who held positions, who were at positions.

12        Q.   Can you tell us their names?

13        A.   Commander of the 3rd Battalion, Dragan Rak.  Assistant for

14     political activity, Boris Slavica -- the late Boris Slavica, he was

15     killed.  The commander of the 1st Battalion was Emil Males.  The command

16     of the reconnaissance company, Ivica Vuksic.  Commander of the tank

17     battalion, Gojanovic -- I don't remember --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Bojanovic, interpreter's correction.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bojanovic.  I don't recall his

20     first name.  Commanders of companies:  Drezgan, Djaja, Prolic.  One of

21     them was called Bajulji commander of the tank platoon, Sudac.  There were

22     other men whose names I can't recall now, but I'm certain I would

23     recognise them if I saw them.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:

25        Q.   You mentioned an individual the -- Dragan Rak; is that right?

Page 21353

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Have you been in contact with him since 1995?

 3        A.   As I said, Sibenik is a small town.  We do come across each other

 4     every now and then, have a drink together and have a talk, and so on.

 5        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to discuss your testimony with him

 6     here today?

 7        A.   We came here together, but we did not touch upon these topics,

 8     since we were not on our own.  We were not, the two of us, alone.

 9        Q.   Since you gave your written statement in May of 1998 [sic] were

10     you also aware that he gave a written statement in connection with this

11     case?

12             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe counsel means May of 2008.

13             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, I apologise, you're correct.

14        Q.   May of 2008.

15        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

16        Q.   And did you discuss your statements at any time, between

17     May of 2008 and today?

18        A.   We discussed our participation in Operation Storm in general

19     terms, but I'm not aware of the contents of his statement.

20        Q.   You also mentioned a -- if I'm pronouncing the name correctly, a

21     Mr. Sudac; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  And you're aware that he gave a statement in connection

24     with this case; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21354

 1        Q.   And have you seen him locally since August and September of 1995?

 2        A.   I didn't see that much of him because he is very busy and he does

 3     not reside in Sibenik.  He resides in Vodice, so I hardly ever see him.

 4        Q.   You testified earlier that the soldiers that were -- that you

 5     instructed were given booklets in accordance with the -- or to instruct

 6     them on the treatment of civilians, and that's also in your statement.

 7             In your personal observation, did the soldiers who you came into

 8     contact with act in accordance with those instructions?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm sure of that.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'd like the witness to be shown Defence

12     Exhibit 205.

13        Q.   In particular, I'd like to direct your attention to

14     paragraph number 2, and the date on the document, which is August 12th.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  And the document is an order signed by the commander, I

17     believe you mentioned previously, Danijel Kotlar.  And paragraph 2

18     specifically says that:

19             "... all necessary measures are to be taken by the troops to

20     participate very actively in exhibiting military and disciplinary

21     behaviour and maintaining order in the zone of responsibility, preventing

22     arson, looting of property and all other illegal acts.  Take stringent

23     disciplinary measures against perpetrators of such acts."

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21355

 1        Q.   Do you know why --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

 3             The witness may answer the question.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'm not sure --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe the question wasn't

 6     completed yet.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Babacic, the portion that was read and the

 8     portion that you see on -- in this order, the question was why this was

 9     written in this order.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should put that question to the

11     person who drafted the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you know, please, tell us; if you don't know,

13     tell us as well, but don't --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

17             MS. DE LANDRI:  One more question, one follow-up question along

18     that line, if I may, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Do you know why -- you were under the command of

20     Commander Kotlar; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know why he would have written such an order, if he had

23     not observed these acts being participated in?

24        A.   Well, he probably wrote it down because he wanted to.  I didn't

25     see any of those things happening.  The date is the 12th of August.

Page 21356

 1     Between the 10th and 14th of August I was on the state border beyond Srb.

 2     I was holding positions there and had no contact with the remainder of

 3     the units.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, I don't have any further questions,

 5     so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. De Landri.

 7             Mr. Misetic, first of all, I had forgotten to ask but I think

 8     there were no -- was no need for cross-examination by the other Defence

 9     teams.  Mr. Misetic, any need to re-examine the witness?

10             MR. MISETIC:  I just had one question because I wasn't sure if

11     the witness understood the question.  So it's related to the question and

12     answer at page 12, lines 19 to 22.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:

14        Q.   Mr. Babacic, if I could just ask you, do you recall seeing

15     Vladimir Gojanovic at any time prior to the 1st of August, 1995?  Did you

16     ever see him before the 1st of August, 1995?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  I certainly did.  But it may have been in 1993 or

18     1994.  But I did not see him wearing a uniform of the Croatian Army.

19        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Babacic.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Babacic, I may have a few questions for you.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Babacic, could you tell us how you were

24     approached for the purpose of giving a statement, the statement you gave

25     on the 8th of May, 2008.

Page 21357

 1        A.   I think that a man came, by the name of Jozo, as early as 2006.

 2     We had a meeting with a lawyer from the Defence team; I don't recall his

 3     name.  I only know that he passed away.  And then in 2008, the man came

 4     and asked me about my participation in the action.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said a meeting in 2006.  A meeting, was

 6     that just you and the person you just described, or were there other

 7     persons as well?

 8        A.   No, no.  There were several commanders there, but I recall only

 9     that one lawyer.  I don't know if he was from the ICTY or, rather, from

10     the OTP, or from the Defence.  I don't even know that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then you said there were several

12     commanders.  Could you tell us approximately -- could you give us some

13     names and could you give us the number of persons present during this

14     meeting in 2006.

15        A.   No, it was a brief meeting.  There were several commanders, and I

16     don't recall all the names at this time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you discuss during this brief meeting?

18        A.   Only our participation in Operation Storm.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was it mentioned at that time that

20     Mr. Gojanovic may have given statements or that he might be a potential

21     witness before the --

22        A.   No.  We -- no.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So the name of Mr. Gojanovic was not mentioned at

24     all during that meeting?

25        A.   No.  It certainly was not.

Page 21358

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now before you gave your statement in 2008,

 2     did you receive a phone call; did someone come to your place?  What

 3     happened before you gave that statement.

 4        A.   The individual came whom I gave my statement to.  His name is

 5     written there.  He's called Jozo.  I gave him the statement and that was

 6     it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  He came to your house?

 8        A.   Yes.  He phoned me, and then we met up.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You met in your house and that's where you gave your

10     statement; or did you give your statement somewhere else?

11        A.   No.  I gave my statement on the premises of the HVIDRA, which is

12     the association of war veterans in Sibenik.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you seen any other person -- yes,

14     Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  I think there's a -- if he could explain what

16     HVIDRA is again, because I'm not certain that the ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'll invite the witness to do that.

18             Could you again explain what the HVIDRA is or -- I may pronounce

19     it wrongly, but the organisation on which premises --

20        A.   It's HVIDRA, the H-v-i-d-r-a is the association of the Croatian

21     war veterans, veterans of the homeland war.  Or rather, the -- of the war

22     invalids of the homeland war.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  When you gave your statement, did you see any other

24     person who may have been there for the purpose of giving a statement as

25     well?

Page 21359

 1        A.   The office consisted of several rooms and I was giving my

 2     statement in a room where I was alone with Jozo.  There were several

 3     individuals.  There were more people in the other rooms on the premises

 4     of the HVIDRA office and in front of the office itself.  But I was giving

 5     the statement on my own to the individual.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you speak to the other individuals before you

 7     gave the statement?

 8        A.   Yes.  But we didn't know what it was all about.  We engaged in

 9     guess-work.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And what did you guess?

11        A.   We were guessing that it was about Operation Storm but we didn't

12     know exactly what.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the name Gojanovic mentioned at that point by

14     anyone, either Jozo who interviewed you, or any of the other persons

15     present?

16        A.   Only Jozo spoke to me.  He asked me if I had ever seen Gojanovic

17     before.  I told him that I knew him personally, but I didn't see him --

18     but I didn't see him there at that time.  I think this is contained in my

19     statement.  I would not have said it had he not asked me about it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'm interested in to know is whether the name

21     of Mr. Gojanovic was mentioned at any point in time prior to the

22     interview taken by Jozo.

23        A.   No.  I didn't know anything about it, until I had that

24     conversation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  On your statement, we find --

Page 21360

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, that interview.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  On your statement, we find that you're retired.  Are

 3     you a -- do you have no professional occupation at all at this moment?

 4        A.   No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You just talked about, I think you were explaining

 6     the organisation as the -- let me just check that.  Are you a war

 7     invalid?

 8        A.   Yes, I am.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for the answers, Mr. Babacic.

10             Is there any need to put further questions to the witness?

11             Then, Mr. Babacic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like

12     to thank you very much for having come to the videolink room and for

13     having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

14     the Bench.  You are excused but I would like to instruct you, that if you

15     see anyone during this day who has come to the same place to give

16     testimony that you should not speak to that person.

17             Is that clear?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then thank you, and I wish you a safe return home.

20             Madam Registrar, the witness may leave the videolink room.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                      [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the representative of the registry in Zagreb

24     escort the next witness into the courtroom.  I do understand that that

25     would be Radoslav Juricev Sudac.

Page 21361

 1             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Will do, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness.  Before you give evidence in

 5     this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a

 6     solemn declaration, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and

 7     nothing but the truth.

 8             The text will now you handed out to you by the representative of

 9     the registry.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  RADOSLAV JURICEV SUDAC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           [Witness testified via videolink]

15                           Examination by Mr. Misetic:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

17             I took it from what we see on our screen and what we hear that

18     you can see me and that you can hear me in a language that you

19     understand.

20             Could you please confirm that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Misetic.

23     Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

24             Mr. Misetic, you may proceed.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 21362

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Would you please state your full name for the

 2     record.

 3        A.   My name is Radoslav Juricev Sudac.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Madam Registrar, if you could please show the

 6     witness Exhibit D193, please.

 7        Q.   Mr. Juricev Sudac, do you see the statement in front of you?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Do you recall giving a statement to a representative of the

10     Gotovina Defence on the 12th of May, 2008?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And in the bottom right-hand corner of that statement, is that

13     your signature?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Have you had a chance to review the statement before coming to

16     court today?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Are there any changes or additional information that need to be

19     included in this statement?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   At the time you gave this statement on the 12th of May, 2008, did

22     you give it to the best of your knowledge and in accordance with the

23     truth?

24        A.   I still had a very good knowledge, and I spoke only the truth and

25     the whole truth.

Page 21363

 1        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were

 2     asked on the 12th of May, 2008, would you provide the same answers today

 3     in court that you provided in this witness statement, dated the

 4     12th of May, 2008?

 5        A.   Yes, of course, I would.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I move to admit into evidence

 7     Exhibit D193.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, a number has already been assigned.

10     That is number D193.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             D193 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Juricev Sudac.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Juricev Sudac, you will now be cross-examined by counsel for

19     the Prosecution.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you ready, Ms. De Landri, to cross-examine the

22     witness?

23             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you.

Page 21364

 1        Q.   Mr. Sudac, I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 4

 2     of your statement.

 3             Do you have that in front of you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 4, you refer to -- I believe I just want to

 6     clarify.  It's a -- the -- you say:

 7             "The tank with which we had some engine problems (village

 8     Pavasovici) T-34 didn't set out.  The tank T-55, that was under my

 9     personal command, was located at the starting point ..."

10             And then in the next full sentence you refer to --

11        A.   Jankova kuca.

12        Q.   -- you refer to a third tank which you also call T-55.  Is that

13     an error?

14        A.   No, it's not.  There were two tanks.  T-55 and one T-34 tank.

15     Each tank had a three-member crew, and my tank had a four-member crew,

16     because I was its first member, its commander.  The commander of the

17     crew.

18        Q.   Maybe it's just a typographical error but in the way that it's

19     written in paragraph 4 in the English translation, it refers to a third

20     tank.

21             Were there three tanks there on August 5th or two?

22        A.   Yes.  There were three tanks on my defence line.  Two T-55 and

23     one T-34.  But the last one was not in a good working order.

24        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

25             Directing your attention to paragraph 5.  In paragraph 5, you've

Page 21365

 1     stated:

 2             "I know [sic] every man who was with me.  I am certain ...

 3     Vladimir Gojanovic was neither assigned to me nor that he was driving in

 4     my tank.  I am certain ... he was not [sic] in the tank at Gornje Bicane

 5     either."

 6             Can you tell the Chamber how you know Vladimir Gojanovic?

 7        A.   As a resident of the county of Sibenik, I met many people.  I

 8     have moved quite a lot.  In the homeland war, I got to know him by sight.

 9     I never got engaged in a conversation with him, but I knew him by sight

10     as a person.  And as for your question, he was not assigned to me to that

11     unit because I would know him, and we would have talked.  The gentleman

12     who brought the unit, Mr. Zafranovic did not bring Gojanovic with him.

13     Gojanovic was not there.  He never drove on my of my tanks.  He was never

14     in any of my tanks.

15        Q.   When was the last time you saw Mr. Gojanovic?

16        A.   The last time I saw Mr. Gojanovic was in Plodine shop in Vodice,

17     on the 27th of November, last year, in 2008.

18        Q.   And prior to August or September of 1995, when would have been

19     the last time you saw him before then?

20        A.   In 1995, I did not see him that often.  I worked in the Croatian

21     Army as an officer.  I did not have much time.  My working hours were

22     from 7.00 in the morning to 4.00 in the afternoon.  I had a lot of work

23     to do.  I had a large family, and I spent most of the free time in my

24     home in Vodice, so I did not really see him that often.

25             I only learned that him and Mr. Petric took some money from my

Page 21366

 1     association, and the late Bozo asked me to go to their house to retrieve

 2     our money; but that hasn't happened to this day.  We did not find them

 3     there.  We returned.  I never saw him after that until the

 4     27th of November, last year, in Vodice.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me in connection with your training in the army, did

 6     you ever receive a booklet on conduct in accordance with the

 7     Geneva Conventions?

 8        A.   Of course, we received those as officers.  You're talking about a

 9     small white booklet containing all the rules.  All of us officers and

10     soldiers were well-informed and were aware of the Geneva Conventions.  We

11     were provided with instructions that we then on -- conveyed to our

12     soldiers as to how to help a wounded or an imprisoned soldier.  I

13     exchanged three imprisoned enemy soldiers for our two dead soldiers.  We

14     did it together with UNPROFOR.  There is a proof, documentary proof of

15     that.  Those white booklets were also distributed before Operation Storm

16     across all units, all officers, non-commissioned officers, company

17     commanders.  So as far as that knowledge is concerned, we were all

18     well-informed.

19        Q.   Well, try to confine your answers to your experience now.

20             Tell me, if you can, as best you can recall, when you received

21     the booklet that you're describing.

22        A.   I received the booklet even before Operation Storm.  I was an

23     officer who was in charge of the training of younger soldiers, and I was

24     duty-bound to inform them about military rules.  The first time I

25     received that booklet, as an officer, was in 1993, or, rather, in 1992,

Page 21367

 1     in the month of November.  That was the first time when I ever set my

 2     eyes on that booklet.

 3             At first, their shape was narrow and long, and later on they were

 4     replaced by those white booklets.  I can still picture the cover drawing

 5     in my head with two soldiers.  I'm no longer with the army.  I have been

 6     retired for five years, and that image is fading in my memory, but I can

 7     still remember it.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us the substance of what was in the booklet?

 9        A.   Yes.  That booklet contained a lot of rules as to what you were

10     supposed to do and what you were not allowed to do.  How to administer

11     first aid to wounded or imprisoned soldiers according to the

12     Geneva Conventions, how to treat such soldiers, what to do with them.

13        Q.   Can you be more specific than that?  Can you tell us the

14     substance of the rules?

15        A.   The substance of the rules was this:  Such a soldier should not

16     be tortured, slaughtered, executed, abused, ill-treated.  You should

17     treat such soldiers in a humane way.

18        Q.   Is there any other substance you recall today?

19        A.   Yes.  For example, that you are not supposed to destroy churches,

20     religious or -- buildings, that those should not be destroyed.  There was

21     a lot, but this is what I can remember.  And I remember what our superior

22     officers were telling us.  It was a war and we remembered the most

23     important things.  Don't kill, don't loot, don't rape, help all those who

24     are wounded.  Such basic things.

25        Q.   Okay.  Just ...

Page 21368

 1             I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit -- Defence

 2     Exhibit 205.

 3             And would you take a moment to read paragraph 2, please, the

 4     numbered paragraph 2.

 5             And just I'd like to direct your attention to --

 6        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 7        Q.   -- direct your attention to the date, which, I think we can

 8     agree, is August 12th; is that right?

 9             And on the second page, the order is signed by Commander Kotlar.

10     Are you familiar with him?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.

13        A.   Of course, Danijel Kotlar, the commander who arrived from Zadar

14     was the commander of the 113th Brigade.  Of course.  He was our main

15     commander.

16        Q.   Can you tell me if you personally observed during Operation Storm

17     any burning, looting, destruction of civilian property?

18        A.   Since I was an artillery man [as interpreted], a tank would

19     always be at the forefront.  Our forces advanced and the artillery

20     liberated the area.  The tanks then moved on together with the infantry.

21     What was happening behind us, I don't know.  I know that the houses were

22     burning, but it was somebody else who did that.  It was not the troops

23     who did that because our troops were strictly forbidden from doing any

24     such thing.  Our troops were strictly informed about all the facts.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

Page 21369

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if we could check the interpretation

 2     with the witness of the first sentence of his answer.  I'm not sure it

 3     was accurately recorded -- or interpreted.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Witness, Ms. De Landri asked you whether you personally observed

 6     during Operation Storm any burning, looting, destruction of civilian

 7     property.  And you started your answer by saying:  "Since I was ..."

 8             And could you, then, please repeat what you then said?  Since you

 9     were a ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on a tank.  I was moving.  I

11     advanced together with my troops.  I don't know whether there was any

12     house burning.  It was not my troops who did that.  In any case, there

13     was no looting.  There was no setting houses on fire when we were

14     advancing.  I would not allow my troops to do such things as their

15     commander.  I would never allow them -- allow them to do that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you say, since I was an infantry man or an

17     artillery man?  Or what did you say in the beginning of your answer?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was a tank commander.  I was

19     on a tank and I progressed.  I advanced.  The artillery did their own

20     thing and the tanks were at the forefront of the advance, and they were

21     the ones who were paving the way and liberating the areas in front of the

22     troops.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that clarification.

24             Could I invite you to slow down your speed of speech so that the

25     interpreters have sufficient time to translate what you say and that the

Page 21370

 1     transcribers have sufficient time to write it down.

 2             MS. DE LANDRI: [Microphone not activated].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, you may proceed.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Just to return to the exhibit, Defence Exhibit 205.

 6             Do you know why Commander Kotlar would have issued that order,

 7     and specifically the substance in paragraph 2?

 8        A.   Because Mr. Kotlar received such an order from his superior, and

 9     that's how things go.  And he just passed the order down to us

10     lower-ranking officers, in order for the war to go on in a correct,

11     composed, and fair manner.

12        Q.   Do you know someone by the name of Nikola Rasic?  Rasic, excuse

13     me.

14        A.   Yes, I know Mr. Nikola Rasic.  We met sometime in October in

15     Vodice, when my first commander of the -- independent company Boban

16     Juricev Sudac brought him.  That gentleman, I believe, was from Bosnia

17     and he moved to Tribun [phoen] because his wife was from there.  Or maybe

18     they returned to Tribun to live there, I don't know.  In any case, he

19     arrived to train us because we were not very well-informed about all the

20     weapon, and especially the rifle-mounted grenades.  That training lasted

21     10 days.  There were some 20 of us who underwent that training, maybe

22     25 of us.  I'm not entirely sure.  But I know that a lot of us did not

23     complete the training and that only very few of us rained in training

24     until the very end.

25        Q.   You testified you met him in October.  October of which year

Page 21371

 1     would that have been?

 2        A.   In 1991, I believe, at the very beginning of the homeland war, I

 3     would say.  After the liberation of the Sibenik bridge, that's when he

 4     arrived and joined our company.

 5        Q.   And was that company a special forces unit?

 6        A.   No.  That unit was an element of the 3rd Battalion, or an

 7     integral part thereof.  The late Ante Juric Boban was the commander of

 8     our 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Company of the independent company.  The

 9     independent company for Vodice.  The Sibenik bridge was occupied at the

10     time.  That's why we established a company consisting of volunteers from

11     Vodice.  He was in charge of our company.  He is deceased and Rasic moved

12     to Slavonia, and I believe that he currently resides there.

13             MS. DE LANDRI:  I would like to direct the witness's attention to

14     the -- 65 ter number is 7394, and the ERN number is E3346837, and ...

15        Q.   Do you have that document in front of you?

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MS. DE LANDRI:  The ERN number is 03346837.

18        Q.   Do you have that document in front of you, sir?

19             Is that -- do you have it in front of you now, sir?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  You see that's a statement given by Nikola Rasic to the

22     police in Zadar-Knin on October 12th, 1995; is that right?

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, just as a technical matter before the

24     witness answers, it is not a statement of the witness.  It's an Official

25     Note of the interview.

Page 21372

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There's a technical difference between a statement

 2     and an Official Note.  If you would use the word "Official Note."

 3             Now, if we have verified that this is the document in front of

 4     the witness, then there might be no need to ask him what the document

 5     says and what we can read ourselves; that is, about dates.  Of course,

 6     unless you wanted to verify that he really has this document in front of

 7     him.  But, yes, you may proceed.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Directing your attention to page 3 of the document.  In

10     particular, the section where your name appears.  Do you see your name

11     there?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes.

13        Q.   Is that your name?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And is there a reference to your belonging to a special forces

16     unit that Mr. Rasic was in?

17        A.   Well, let me explain this to you, what is stated here.

18             Every company, brigade, or battalion always consisted of soldiers

19     who were abler soldiers and were more motivated to defend their country,

20     and not everyone was capable of waging a war.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that there was a break in

22     the witness's answer.  Can he be asked to repeat.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juricev, could you please repeat your answer

24     because the interpreters could not follow every word.  Perhaps you -- you

25     said:

Page 21373

 1             "Every company, brigade, or battalion always consisted of

 2     soldiers who were more able -- abler soldiers and were more motivated to

 3     defend their country, and not everyone was ..."

 4             And what did you then say?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were better trained and better

 6     at handling weapons.  That's why we had the gentleman called Zec, i.e.,

 7     Nikola Rasic.  He was the one who taught us how to fire grenades from

 8     rifles.  These were rifle launchers.  We practiced with live ammunition.

 9     We would fire, launch a hand-grenade or a rifle grenade at old household

10     appliances, et cetera, so we would not impact or the effect of the rifle

11     grenade was.  We would mount the grenade on a rifle and fire it.

12             This sort of training took place over the course of 15 days.  We

13     had to learn how to work our way through difficult terrain, woods, wading

14     through water.  We had fitness exercises, and we had to go through all

15     these drills with Zec, who was a professionally trained soldier.

16        Q.   Do you know why the term "dirty dozen" was used to refer to this

17     special unit?

18        A.   Well, the expression "dirty dozen" came into usage after I left.

19     On the 29th of October, 1991, I joined an armoured mechanised company of

20     the 113th Brigade, as soon as the first tank reached Vodice.

21        Q.   Can you tell me when was the last time that you spoke with

22     Mr. Zafranovic?

23        A.   I spoke to him the last time in the Plodine shop on the 27th --

24     or, rather, that was just before the Christmas Day and the New Year's

25     Eve.  I think it was roughly around the 27th of December, rather than

Page 21374

 1     November.  That was last year, and we met just before the Christmas Day,

 2     we were doing Christmas shopping.  And I don't know why he mentioned my

 3     name at all and mentioned that he was part of my tank crew when he was

 4     not.

 5        Q.   Did you -- did the two of you discuss the statements that you

 6     gave in connection with this case?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I believe there's some confusion

 8     with the witness and I don't believe he understood -- understood the name

 9     that was posed in the last question, so I believe you might want to clear

10     that up.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  Okay.  I will --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you -- would you please do that.

13             MS. DE LANDRI:  -- do that with the next question.  Thank you.

14     Just one second.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I, at the same time, ask you how much time

16     you'd still need, because we are already beyond the time we usually have

17     a break.  If it would be a matter of just a couple of minutes, then it's

18     fine.  If not, then we would have the break first.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Just a few moments.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             MS. DE LANDRI:  Now, I want to go back to the earlier question

23     that I had asked the witness, Mr. President.

24        Q.   My question was, and is, have you been in contact with

25     Mr. Zafranovic.

Page 21375

 1        A.   I was in contact with Mr. Zafranovic.  I asked him why it was

 2     that he mentioned my name, first and last name, and said that he was with

 3     me on my tank when he did not take part in Storm at all.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  Mr. President, one procedural matter.  The

 5     document that I had been asking the witness about, it is actually an

 6     exhibit, D1540.  That was the police interview.  I just want that to be

 7     clear for the record.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the Official Note so you will not tender it.

 9     It's already in evidence.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Right, thank you.  I don't have any further

11     questions for the witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether ...

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, any questions for the witness?

15             MR. MISETIC:  No, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would like to read again the document

17     which is on our screen before we make up our mind as to whether we have

18     any questions for the witness, but that would take too long.

19             Therefore, you are not yet excused.  Then it may that be we have

20     some questions for you after the break; that's not certain yet.  So would

21     you please remain there, and after the break we will inform you whether

22     there are any further questions or whether your testimony is concluded.

23             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes past 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

Page 21376

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juricev, I have a few questions for you.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us about the booklets that you received, an

 4     early version already quite some years before Operation Storm, and then,

 5     later, it was a different format.  You told us that officers and

 6     non-commissioned officers would receive that.  Were they supposed, then,

 7     to instruct the soldiers, or did the soldiers get their own copies of

 8     those booklets?  What happened?

 9        A.   Since the commanders of platoons, companies, and squads received

10     such booklets, the soldiers were familiar with them.  They would be

11     photocopied, and they would receive instructions.  Besides, soldiers were

12     told about the rules of war in -- during that training.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say they were photocopied.  There was not

14     a sufficient number of booklets to be distributed among all the soldiers?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  An Official Note was shown to you, in which it is

17     described how you were selected to become a member of a special unit.

18     And I think you told us that you received some training.  You told us

19     about grenades fired by rifles.

20             How long did you stay in that unit or -- if it was a real unit?

21        A.   I spent a short period of time in that unit only, because I

22     became a part of the tank crew on the 28th of October, 1991, which is the

23     date when the first tank arrived in Vodice; this is something that I've

24     already said.

25             I was, therefore, a member of that unit -- no, sorry, it was on

Page 21377

 1     the 29th of March.  Wait.  On the 18th of October, there was the capture.

 2     It was on the 29th of November that I went to join that unit, whereas, on

 3     the 18th of November, we captured three enemy soldiers in the village of

 4     Cista Velika, and it was the first such instance of us having prisoners

 5     of war.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And we are talking about what year at this moment?

 7        A.   1991.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So only for a very short period of time you

 9     were a member of that group or unit.

10        A.   A very short period only.  That particular unit existed for as

11     long as late Ante Juricev Boban was alive.  As far as I remember, it

12     ceased to exist subsequently, and Mr. Zec left the unit later on.

13             Subsequently, two smaller units were formed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You testified today that you knew that houses were

15     burning but that you were moving forward in your tank and that you knew

16     for sure that it could not have been members of your army that would have

17     set fire to those houses because they were prohibited to do that.

18             Now, do you have any explanation as to how these houses were put

19     on fire?  What -- do you know anything about it?

20        A.   I am very poorly informed of these events.

21             It was summertime, and whenever a tracer bullet was fired, it was

22     quite possible for it to set hay or grass on fire.  The situation was

23     such that there was always an exchange of fire, it was highly flammable,

24     and there was always a high possibility for a haystack or a hay barn to

25     be set on fire in the process.  My soldiers were never allowed to act

Page 21378

 1     without my command, without my orders, and I fought honourably and

 2     honestly.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You're talking about your unit.  Could you exclude

 4     for the possibility instead -- for the possibility that other HV members

 5     may have set houses on fire or may have looted or intentionally destroyed

 6     civilian property?

 7        A.   To the best of my knowledge, nobody did that sort of thing in my

 8     unit.  I only remember in relation to Varivode, that there was some men

 9     who were part of my group when we were undergoing training.  I know what

10     they did, and I know that there was disciplinary punishment passed down

11     against them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to ask you a few questions about --

13     about your interview.

14             Could you tell us how you were approached prior to giving -- to

15     have given your statement in 2008, in May?  Did you receive a phone call,

16     did someone come to your house, was it the first time that you were

17     approached?  Could you give us a bit more details?

18        A.   My first contact was with the president of the association of

19     invalids, Josko Babacic, who told me that Mr. Misetic's team would come

20     there on behalf of the Defence for General Gotovina.  I volunteered to

21     provide a statement, if they would wish so, on their arrival.  And they

22     arrived on the 17th of May, unless I'm mistaken.  That was when I gave my

23     statement.  And that was my first contact and encounter with them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you have not attended a meeting some years

25     before in 2006?

Page 21379

 1        A.   No, never.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, about your statement, did Mr. Babacic tell you

 3     what -- what the issue was for which your statement would be important?

 4        A.   He didn't tell me anything.  I didn't know what the team of

 5     lawyers would tell me either, until we finally met and until they showed

 6     me why it was that they were seeking to speak to me.  They showed it to

 7     me on their laptop.

 8             When I saw that Vladimir Gojanovic gave a false statement, I said

 9     that I had to confirm and say what I had to say personally, if necessary.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  When did they show you the -- was it a video of

11     Mr. Gojanovic's testimony?  What was it that they had shown you on the

12     laptop?

13        A.   I only saw his statement when he said in The Hague that he was

14     the one who had prevented the Croatian Army from committing genocide on

15     the Serbs and that he would testify against Croatia and the Generals.  I

16     lied.  I can guarantee 100 per cent that he was not with me, and I have

17     to tell you that we were an army that prevented any sort of genocide from

18     being committed against the Serbs.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I would like to hear more details about

20     what you saw.

21             Was this a video, first of all?

22        A.   Well, yes, it was the ordinary video footage.  I'm not quite sure

23     what it was.  I'm not quite familiar with that sort of video.  But I do

24     recall seeing Gojanovic testify in The Hague, in the courtroom in the

25     The Hague.  I saw it on TV.

Page 21380

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I hear of two things:  First, you said

 2     that you were shown a video in which Mr. Gojanovic said he would testify

 3     in The Hague, as you said, against ...

 4        A.   That he testified.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see what you -- what is on the

 6     transcript of what you said.

 7             Yes, you said and I read one of your answers.  You said:

 8             "I only saw his statement when he said in The Hague that he was

 9     the one who had prevented the Croatian Army from committing genocide on

10     the Serbs and that he would testify against Croatia and the Generals."

11             Now that is a bit of a confusing answer because it says when --

12     it says that --

13        A.   That he testified against the Generals.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Was this shown to you before you gave your

15     statement?

16        A.   No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, when, then, did they show this to you?

18        A.   They had the footage on their laptop.  The team of lawyers showed

19     me on their laptop that he had testified in The Hague against the

20     Generals.  He said that he had been with me on the tank.

21             So they first had questions for me and then they showed it to me,

22     and I told them that he was not with me.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that on the same day when you gave your

24     statement, that they had shown it to you?

25        A.   It was after a while that I saw the footage.  I gave my

Page 21381

 1     statement, and then I was shown the footage and asked whether I knew the

 2     individual.  I know him, and I know that he was not with me on the tank.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was on the same day that you gave your

 4     statement that the video was shown to you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you become aware that your testimony was

 7     specifically focussing on whether -- that your interview would focus on

 8     Mr. Gojanovic, his role, in Operation Storm?

 9        A.   The odds were not 100 per cent that I would be testifying but

10     they wanted to confirm with me whether Gojanovic was telling the truth or

11     not.  And then later, it was through a set of coincidences that I ended

12     up finally appearing before the Tribunal.  And they told me that I should

13     only tell the truth, whether he was there or he was not there, and I can

14     confirm that he was not with me on the tank.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Babic tell you that it was about the role of

16     Mr. Gojanovic that there was a need to interview you?

17        A.   We were not 100 percent sure but he told me that I should be

18     prepared and that I could possibly be summoned by The Hague, by the ICTY.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not my question.  My question was

20     whether Mr. Babacic told you prior to your interview that it was about --

21     whether Mr. Gojanovic had told the truth, yes or no.

22        A.   It didn't have to do with -- with Gojanovic telling the truth or

23     not.  It had to do with the statement that he gave in The Hague.  I was

24     supposed to confirm whether he was, indeed, with me on the tank or not,

25     and that was how Josko and I then knew later on what -- what happened.

Page 21382

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Was Josko - that's Mr. Babacic - present when you

 2     were interviewed?

 3        A.   Out of the team of lawyers?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I'm just asking whether he was present during

 5     your interview.  You were interviewed?

 6        A.   Josko was present.  He was the one who called me, and he was the

 7     one through whom I got to meet the team of lawyers.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But was he present when you were interviewed?

 9     So, first of all, do you remember who interviewed you, who put the

10     questions to you when you gave your statement?

11        A.   There were three members of the Defence team which were sent by

12     Mr. Misetic.  There was Stomo [phoen], there was the late gentleman, and

13     the third one.  I don't even know their names, to be honest.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you say there were three persons, do you

15     mean to say three persons apart from you?

16        A.   There were three lawyers, members of Mr. Misetic's team.  The

17     Defence team representing Mr. Ante Gotovina.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That is when you were interviewed.  You're talking

19     about that interview?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was Mr. Babacic also present, apart from the

22     three lawyers?

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you given any statement by Mr. Gojanovic to

25     read?  Did you read any statement given by Mr. Gojanovic, or was just the

Page 21383

 1     video shown to you?

 2        A.   First of all, I saw it on TV.  I saw his false testimony.  And I

 3     was appalled when I saw that.  Knowing Gojanovic, I immediately

 4     remembered what sort of criminal he was.  First he stole money from my

 5     association, the association of Croatian veterans of the Croatian war of

 6     the city of Vodice.  He stole that money through his own account.  To

 7     this very day, he has not returned that money, and I immediately knew

 8     what the whole matter was about.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it after you had seen his testimony on

10     television that you were approached by Mr. Babacic; or was it already

11     before you had seen this on television?

12        A.   After.  I already seen him on TV, and some 20 days after that,

13     Josko called me and told me that I should present myself to provide a

14     statement.  I asked him who was coming, and he said, The team.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, what you saw on television, I just want

16     to be sure about that.  Was it a kind of an interview Mr. Gojanovic gave,

17     or was it really his testimony in a courtroom in The Hague?

18        A.   What I saw was his testimony in the courtroom, in The Hague.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, Mr. Gojanovic, is he average

20     height?  Is he a very tall man?  Is he a small man?  Could you tell us --

21     could you describe him?

22        A.   Gojanovic is a tall person, heavily built.  He weighs 120 to 130

23     kilos.  He has short hair.  His head is round.  I know him personally.

24     His brother was a member of the 113th Brigade.  He was with the signals

25     company.  He was a signals man.  I know his brother personally.

Page 21384

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 2             Could we just switch off the speaker in Zagreb for a second?  I

 3     think that can be visible on the screen.

 4             If you would wait for a second.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question, if I may?

 6     Hello?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I ask you something?  Hello.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you do that at a later moment, yes?

10             Microphone -- the witness now can't hear me anymore.  One of

11     the --

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness then take his earphones off.

14             Are the parties aware of any testimony given by Mr. Gojanovic,

15     other than on the 16th and 18th of May, 2008?

16             MR. HEDARALY:  We have 16 and 19 of May and we are not aware of

17     anything, Your Honour.

18             MR. MISETIC:  I believe also in my records here he started on the

19     15th, if I'm not mistaken so ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But after the 12th.

21             MR. MISETIC:  No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Because I would like to put that to the witness and

23     I want to be sure that I did not make any mistake.

24             Mr. Juricev, I extensively asked you questions about what you had

25     seen as testimony of Mr. Gojanovic and that you were invited after that

Page 21385

 1     moment to give a statement.

 2             If I would tell you that Mr. Gojanovic testified in this court

 3     not before but after you had already given your statement on the 12th of

 4     May, would you have any explanation to that?  Because your testimony

 5     clearly stated that Mr. Gojanovic -- you had seen him on television

 6     testifying in The Hague before you gave your statement; whereas, this

 7     Chamber and the parties do agree that it was only after you'd given your

 8     statement that Mr. Gojanovic could have appeared on television giving

 9     testimony in The Hague.

10        A.   No, I don't know who made a mistake.  I saw him on TV.  And then

11     the team of lawyers came from The Hague, and they asked me about that

12     case, which means thereafter.  I provided my statement after that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

14             I have no further questions.

15             Any questions?

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, just one briefly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Ms. De Landri has a short question for you.

19                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

20        Q.   Mr. Sudac, you gave your statement -- your written statement on

21     May 12th, 2008, and according to the document it was conducted by, and

22     you will pardon my pronunciation if I mispronounce, Jozo Ribicic; is that

23     right?  Is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  And --

Page 21386

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In response to Judge Orie's questions, you referred to an

 3     interview that was conducted by three members of the Defence team.  When

 4     was that conducted?

 5        A.   When that gentleman, Jozo Ribicic, was there, he signed the

 6     document, and I did as well.  And two more men came with him.  Him and

 7     two more people came.

 8        Q.   And were there two separate interviews or just one interview?

 9        A.   Just one.

10        Q.   And are their names indicated on this document?

11        A.   No.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juricev, you earlier said that you would like to

14     ask me a question, although it is uncommon for a witness to ask

15     questions, I, nevertheless, would allow you to ask what you want to ask.

16     I'm not promising that I will answer your question.  I'll first wait and

17     hear what you wanted to ask.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to make a correction.

19     I saw Mr. Gojanovic on the 27th of December, between Christmas and New

20     Year and that was in 2008.  I wanted to make that correction.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can take that into account,

23     please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I would like to thank you as

Page 21387

 1     well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It is on the record.

 3             This concludes your testimony, Mr. Juricev.  Mr. Juricev Sudac.

 4     And I would like to thank you for coming to the videolink room and for

 5     having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 6     the Bench.

 7             Could I ask the representative of the registry to escort the

 8     witness out of the courtroom.  And, at the same time -- but first, I'd

 9     like to instruct you, Mr. Juricev Sudac.  If there are any other people

10     in the premises where you are at present and who still may have to

11     testify, you should not speak to them.  Neither should you speak to

12     anyone who has already testified today.

13             Is that clear?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the representative of the registry not only

16     escort Mr. Juricev Sudac out of the room but also escort Mr. Zafranovic

17     into that same room.

18                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Zafranovic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I can.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you also see us in The Hague?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you given evidence, I would like to invite

Page 21388

 1     you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole

 2     truth, and nothing but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you by

 3     Madam Registrar.

 4             Could you please make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please, be seated, Mr. Zafranovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zafranovic, you will first briefly be examined

10     by Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for the Prosecution -- for the --

11     for Mr. Gotovina.  I apologise, Mr. Misetic.

12                           WITNESS:  DAVOR ZAFRANOVIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           [Witness testified via videolink]

15                           Examination by Mr. Misetic:

16             MR. MISETIC:  No offence taken, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zafranovic.  Would you please state your full

18     name for the record.

19        A.   Good morning.  My name is Davor Zafranovic.  My late father's

20     name is Joso.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Madam Registrar, if we could show the witness

22     Exhibit D203, please.

23        Q.   Mr. Zafranovic, do you recall giving a statement to a

24     representative of the Gotovina Defence on the 12th of May, 2008?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21389

 1        Q.   And looking at the statement in front of you, is that the

 2     statement that you signed on the 12th of May, 2008?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Is that your signature on the -- in the lower right-hand corner

 5     of the first page?

 6        A.   It is.

 7        Q.   Have you had a chance to review this statement before coming to

 8     the Tribunal's office in Zagreb today?

 9        A.   Yes, the day before yesterday.

10        Q.   And do any changes need to be made to the statement or any

11     additional information added to the statement?

12        A.   I would just like to add that Sudac, the head of the tank crew,

13     that we did what he said.  Sometimes we went behind the tank, sometimes

14     we went in front of the tank, and sometimes we travelled on the tank

15     itself.

16        Q.   Other than that information, is the statement accurate to the

17     best of your knowledge?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At the time you gave this statement to the Gotovina Defence, did

20     you give it to the best of your knowledge and in accordance with the

21     truth?

22        A.   Well, my whole life is nothing but the truth, and I speak only

23     the truth and only what I know.

24        Q.   Okay.  Is that then, yes, that you gave a statement to the best

25     of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?

Page 21390

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were

 3     asked on the 12th of May, 2008, would your answers today in court be the

 4     same as the answers you provided in your witness statement that is in

 5     front of you right now?

 6        A.   Yes, they would be identical.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I move for the admission into evidence

 8     of Exhibit D203.

 9             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D203 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   Mr. Zafranovic, thank you very much.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, that concludes my direct

14     examination.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

16             Mr. Zafranovic, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. De Landri.

17     Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

21        Q.   Mr. Zafranovic, you gave your statement in May of 2008; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And your statement related to events that occurred in August of

25     1995; is that right?

Page 21391

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And in the approximately 13 years that elapsed, did you discuss

 3     those events with anyone?

 4        A.   Well, you know, whenever I meet with my commanders, in the past,

 5     we did tell stories; but as time goes on, we meet less and less, and we

 6     don't talk as much.

 7        Q.   Well, let me direct your attention to the statement itself and to

 8     some of the individuals you identify in the statement.

 9             Did you discuss the specifics of the statement with anyone in

10     that time-frame?  I realize it's a very broad time-frame but ...

11        A.   Well, it was last year when we discussed this event at somewhat

12     greater length, when Sudac and I provided our statements, that is.

13        Q.   And when you say, When Sudac and I provided the statements, can

14     you describe the circumstances of -- of when you provided your

15     statements?

16        A.   A representative of the Defence came to see us, and we were taken

17     to a room, just him and I, I believe that you will find it in here.  I

18     gave my statement in the presence of that person.  I don't know if it was

19     Misetic or somebody else.  I don't know who it was.

20        Q.   When you say - you said "us."  Who are you referring to?

21        A.   Just Sudac and myself were there, and Mr. Babacic.  In the other

22     room I mean.

23        Q.   During the time that you gave your statement, Sudac and Mr.

24     Babic [sic] was present?

25             MR. MISETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  Mischaracterises the

Page 21392

 1     witness's testimony.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the point you would like to further explore

 3     but you can do it --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we get an answer anyhow.  If you, please,

 6     would further explore who was where, at what time so that we get full

 7     information.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you.

10        Q.   When you went to give your statement in this matter back in May

11     of 2008, you went with Sudac; is that right?

12        A.   No.  When I provided my statement, it was just me and the lawyer.

13     Prior to that, I was with the others, but during the actual statement, it

14     was just the two of us.

15        Q.   Thank you.  When you say "the others," who were you referring to?

16        A.   Sudac was in a different room, in the other room, and he was

17     waiting there to be called to provide his statement after me.

18        Q.   Where did this take place?

19        A.   In the HVIDRA of Sibenik.

20        Q.   And did the two of you travel to that building together?

21        A.   No.  I came by boat from Prvic, and from the harbour, I came to

22     that building on foot.

23        Q.   When you went to the -- when you went to give the statement, did

24     you know that he was also coming to give a statement on the same day?

25        A.   No, I didn't know, but I assumed.

Page 21393

 1        Q.   Why did you assume he was coming to give a statement at the same

 2     time?

 3        A.   Why did I assume?  Because the operation involved the tank crew

 4     headed by Vucanin [phoen].  There was myself and four or five other

 5     combatants.  We were either on the tank or around the tank.

 6        Q.   And who contacted you and asked you to give a statement?

 7        A.   I was aware of the statement, that Sibenik mentioned my name I

 8     knew what that was all about.  I knew that Gojanovic had testified, and I

 9     was contacted by Babacic, I believe.  I believe that he called me.

10        Q.   When you say "Babacic," who are you referring to?  Can you give

11     us a first name?

12        A.   I call him Babacic.  I know his name.  I believe that his name is

13     Jole, but I really can't be sure.  I know his name, but I can't remember.

14     Jole, I think.

15        Q.   So were you interviewed after Mr. Gojanovic had testified in the

16     ICTY?

17        A.   Yes.  But my name was already mentioned in newspapers and on

18     Radio Sibenik by that time.

19        Q.   And can you tell us in what regard your name was mentioned in the

20     newspapers and on the radio?

21        A.   To be honest, I don't listen to Radio Sibenik.  My sister told me

22     that my name had been mentioned on the radio.  I don't know.

23        Q.   What -- what did she or anyone else tell you about what was said

24     about you on the radio?

25        A.   I believe that reference was made to Petric and Gojanovic and

Page 21394

 1     then they mentioned me as a witness of genocide or, rather, of the way

 2     genocide was prevented.  Something to that effect, I think.

 3        Q.   Well, just to direct your attention again to your written

 4     statement, and that's Exhibit D203.  We can agree that the date that you

 5     gave that statement was May 12th, 2008.  Is that right, Mr. Zafranovic?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And if I told you that Vladimir Gojanovic testified in the

 8     ICTY after that date, would you be able to explain the discrepancy?

 9        A.   Mind you, I wondered at Gojanovic mentioning my name at all.  I

10     was in Operation Storm, I was on a tank on the 5th of August of the year.

11     And as for him testifying, I don't know if it was before or after.

12        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 10 of your

13     statement.

14             Take a moment to look at that.

15        A.   I have.

16        Q.   And it says on August 6th after we arrived in Bribir, we stayed

17     there overnight.  The next morning at daylight my company took a one-day

18     rest.

19             Is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So on August 6th, you are -- you had a day off ; is that correct?

22        A.   Well, it -- we didn't have the entire day off, but, for the most

23     part, yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  The next sentence says, We returned on August 7th.

25             Can you recall what you did on August 7th?

Page 21395

 1        A.   On the 7th of August I was in prison, or, rather, in detention.

 2        Q.   And tell us the circumstances that led up to your imprisonment.

 3        A.   I can tell you about it.

 4             On the 6th, a friend came to see me.  We call him Drobonj, but

 5     his last name is Slavica.  He got me into his car and suggested that we

 6     visit our -- or, rather, that we go and collect the mortal remains of our

 7     friend, a fellow soldier.  He said that he was one hand short, that he

 8     needed someone to give him a hand.  We came close to Skradin, along a

 9     dirt road, and we found a hand, just a hand that had been burned.  We

10     placed it in an island bag and took it to the local cemetery.  However,

11     they would not agree at the local cemetery to bury the one hand, so we

12     went to Gorica, and we made arrangements for the hand to be placed in a

13     coffin so that my friend could receive a proper burial.

14             May I proceed?

15        Q.   Certainly.

16        A.   You see, I was 53 at the time of the Storm, and I was a proper

17     volunteer.  I didn't receive a single call-up letter.

18             This person, his name is Garma, he was ten years my junior, and

19     he was closest to my age.  All the other ones were kids for me, including

20     those who took part in Operation Storm.  So I befriended him.

21             You see, I live on an island, and I was the president of the

22     local commune of the island there before I joined Operation Storm.  So I

23     had to travel by boat and I arrived at 1530 there, and I planned on going

24     back by boat again on the following morning, and I had all my weapons and

25     my gear on me because I simply didn't have the time to drop them off in

Page 21396

 1     the barracks, and I wanted to show up there a bit early.

 2             So I wanted to be there early because I was their president.

 3             As I arrived down there, some 30 or some 40 of them joined us and

 4     we celebrated.  We celebrated the Storm.  So we stayed there until 12.30.

 5     We were in a restaurant in Punta whereupon we proceeded to a bar where

 6     they refused to serve us drinks.  The barkeeper, the lady barkeeper,

 7     would not give us drinks.  It was 12.45 and the bar was officially opened

 8     until 1.00, so it was 10 or 15 minutes before the closing time.

 9             I got angry.  You see, throughout that time, from Bribir to

10     Sibenik, wherever we stopped to have a drink, we would be served drinks.

11     In Poljane, for instance, we were not only served drinks but we were

12     greeted cordially and warmly by the ladies there as well, and you see, in

13     my own home town I was there with some friends of mine from Split and

14     from my fellow citizens of Prvic.  We wouldn't be served drinks.  So I

15     went home, and I fired a burst of fire in the area because I had heard

16     that the brother of the lady barkeeper was living nearby and was asleep,

17     so I simply wanted to wake him up.  That was all.

18             I don't know what he was doing in Prvic.  He was a senior officer

19     of the police, and I suppose he was there on a holiday.  So what he did

20     then was that, when I went to bed, suddenly 17 policemen, some military,

21     some civilian policemen, surrounded my house, would that they had been

22     there together with us in Operation Storm rather than around my house [as

23     interpreted].  So a police boat arrived and took me to Poljane into

24     detention.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, could you, please --

Page 21397

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My command learned of the

 2     developments --

 3             MS. DE LANDRI:

 4        Q.   I just want to direct your attention to a document and ask you --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

 6             MS. DE LANDRI:  -- just about the circumstances.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh.  Okay.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, would you please consider that the

10     interpreters need sometime to translate especially if the witness is

11     going very fast, and I would -- the Chamber would highly appreciate if

12     would you focus the witness --

13             MS. DE LANDRI:  Certainly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and intervene whenever necessary to take him back

15     to what appears the most relevant things.

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  Certainly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MS. DE LANDRI:

19        Q.   Were you intoxicated at the time of your arrest on August 7th,

20     1995?

21        A.   Well, what do you mean?  Well, I was tipsy.  I wasn't drunk.  I

22     didn't resist them.  I didn't get into -- pick up a fire [as interpreted]

23     with them.  I went with them, and I suppose --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch what the witness

25     said last.

Page 21398

 1             MS. DE LANDRI:

 2        Q.   My question was, were you intoxicated at the time of your arrest

 3     on August 7th, 1995?  Just yes or no is sufficient.

 4        A.   No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, the interpreters informed us that

 6     they did not catch the last words of the witness.  The proper way is to

 7     ask the witness to repeat those last words, not to have them disappear

 8     from the record --

 9             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'm sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but putting the question again and giving

11     guidance to the witness that a yes or a no would do, which, in view of

12     his earlier answer, must seem to be clear already.

13             Mr. Zafranovic, you earlier said that you -- you went with the

14     police officers, and you said:  "And I suppose ..." and then your words

15     are missing.

16             Could you repeat what you said when you said:  "And I suppose."

17             You suppose what?  I'm not seeking a long story but just what you

18     said earlier.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked if I had been drunk,

20     and my answer was, had I been drunk, I would have resisted them.  They

21     would not have arrested me as easily as that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:  I would like to direct the witness's attention to

24     65 ter 7345.  And the ERN number, the first number is 04249656.

25        Q.   I would like to direct your attention to paragraph 4.

Page 21399

 1             Can you just take a look at that briefly?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be provided with a hard copy.

 3             Ms. De Landri, could you repeat the number for the --

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh, certainly.  It's -- the first page of

 5     document is 04249656.  And the paragraph I want to direct the witness's

 6     attention to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first try and find the document.  If you look

 8     at your screen, you will see what happens in Zagreb.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I think if we can assist I believe

10     it is 65 ter 7395.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  That's right.  That's right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri confirms that that's the right number.

13             Ms. De Landri, it's now the time to guide the witness to the

14     relevant --

15             MS. DE LANDRI:

16        Q.   I would just like to direct your attention to paragraph 4 of the

17     document.

18             Have you had an opportunity to review it?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, I take it that the witness needs a

20     bit more time, because I not even have read the paragraph.

21             MS. DE LANDRI:

22        Q.   Okay.  Have you had an opportunity to review the document, sir?

23     Not the document, excuse me, paragraph 4.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 21400

 1        A.   Yes, paragraph 4.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And does that refresh your memory about the event of

 3     August 7th, 1995?

 4        A.   Most of what is stated here is false.  It wasn't 1.05; it was

 5     12.45.  The bar should not have closed yet.

 6             Second, how it is that she can possibly know that I was under the

 7     influence of alcohol.  I may have been excited, I may have been

 8     exhilarated since we had successfully done the first part of Storm.

 9             MS. DE LANDRI:  May I interrupt the witness?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:

12        Q.   Okay.  The part of the statement that says that you fired some

13     15 bullets into the air, and broke three tables, two chairs, two ceiling

14     lights, is that accurate, to the best of your recollection?

15        A.   It was a burst of fire, not 15 rounds but over 25.  And as for

16     the chairs and tables, they were not broken.

17        Q.   Okay.  And just -- you were later arrested, is it 4.00 a.m. in

18     the morning?  Is that accurate?  Several hours later?

19        A.   Well, I don't know if was 3.00 or 4.00.  I had already gone to

20     bed, and I was asleep.

21        Q.   Okay.  You were arrested at your home.  Is that accurate?

22        A.   Yes, I'm telling you that I was asleep.

23        Q.   And that was on August 7th; correct?

24        A.   Yes, on the 7th.

25        Q.   And how long --

Page 21401

 1        A.   On the 7th of August, yes, night-time.

 2        Q.   And how long did you remain in custody?

 3        A.   24 hours.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  I have no further questions of this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Any questions in re-examination, Mr. Misetic?

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           Questioned by the Court:

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zafranovic, I would like to know a bit more

10     details about who approached you before you gave a statement in May 2008.

11        A.   I think that it was Babacic who told me over the phone that I

12     should come to HVIDRA on such and such a day, at such and such an hour.

13     I think it was Babacic, Jole Babacic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did he tell you why your statement was

15     needed?

16        A.   Well, I had already presumed, since this was already discussed,

17     it was general knowledge in the town.  There was no need for him to give

18     me any explanations.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What was general knowledge in the town?

20        A.   Well, only that Gojanovic was a witness of The Hague Tribunal and

21     that he mentioned me and Sudac as witnesses substantiating his testimony,

22     nothing else.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You said he mentioned you.  Do you mean to say that

24     he mentioned your name in The Hague; or that he mentioned your name

25     elsewhere?

Page 21402

 1        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know the details.  I know that my

 2     friends called me and told me that they had heard my name mentioned on

 3     Radio Sibenik.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier told us about your sister.  You're now

 5     telling us about your friends.  Could you tell us who those friends were

 6     and were they, in addition to your sister, telling you that your name

 7     was --

 8        A.   Well, you see, my sister normally listens to the radio.  She is

 9     now 80.  I don't know how old she was at the time.  And she always

10     listens to the radio early on in the morning; I don't.  So it was my

11     sister who phoned me about it.  There was another friend who is

12     Gojanovic's neighbour.  He lives just next door to Gojanovic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So they told you that Gojanovic had mentioned your

14     name.

15             What was your reaction to that?  How did you feel about that?

16        A.   I know Gojanovic's late father very well.  Frankly, I don't know

17     him.  I probably saw him before, but I did see him afterwards, after him

18     giving the statement, and I know now that he is quite corpulent.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was, what did you feel about Gojanovic

20     mentioning your name?

21        A.   Since not a single case smacking of genocide was something that I

22     ever witnessed during Storm, it did not really worry me, did not cause me

23     any concern.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have any other concern; or were you just

25     convinced that he didn't tell the truth?

Page 21403

 1        A.   Well, you see, the 10 or 15 days that I spent during Storm, I met

 2     an enormous amount of people at the very start, on the 5th, some of the

 3     people I used to know I met in Gracac.  Then some people that I went to

 4     see because I knew that they stayed there, or their mothers, like the

 5     Dragovic individual, then in Srb and in the surrounding villages.  I even

 6     gathered some 15 or 16 Serb civilians who were there and gave them food,

 7     and this is something that I remember fondly.  I asked them, Why didn't

 8     all of you leave since everybody else left?  And do you know what an old

 9     lady told me?  Dear sir, we are the wretched poor and they wouldn't take

10     us them with them.

11             On the second day, that same old lady told me when I asked her,

12     Why aren't you eating anything, you have lambs and other food, because

13     you see I brought them some lambs that I found.  She told me, Comrade,

14     this belongings to other persons.  So I was 53.  And what sort of a fool

15     would I be to allow anyone to mistreat or kill those people?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could it that be Mr. Gojanovic had seen things

17     you had not seen?

18        A.   Since, according to what he says, he was on the same tank that I

19     was on as a -- I think as a lance corporal or something, and I never saw

20     him, I don't know what gives him the right to talk about Oluja and his --

21     Storm and his participation therein.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he not participate in Storm, or did he?

23        A.   That's something that HVIDRA and those people there would know.

24     But as far as I'm concerned, he was not there on that day with me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'd like to go back to you giving your

Page 21404

 1     statement.

 2             You were told what Mr. Gojanovic -- or at least what was heard on

 3     the radio by your friends.  So what did you conclude from that, as far as

 4     the subject of your statement would be?  Do you expect it to be about

 5     Mr. Gojanovic; or just about the events in Storm you participated in?

 6     What was your impression at the time?

 7        A.   As I told you before, I didn't give Gojanovic any thought.  I had

 8     an idea that I would be giving my experience in Storm, and I can tell you

 9     that nothing resembling genocide ever occurred there.

10             As for the setting houses on fire and looting of cattle, I can

11     tell that you it was somebody else other than Croatian soldiers who did

12     that.  We were busy.  We had our tasks.  And, besides, we were also

13     afraid.  We were not professional soldiers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there?

15             When you went to the -- did Mr. Babacic tell you where to go and

16     when?

17        A.   Do you mean last year or now?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Last year.

19        A.   He only told me to come to the HVIDRA building.  And then we went

20     to the notary public's office, and we signed our statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he know the time you had to be in the HVIDRA

22     building?

23        A.   I don't think so.  He told me to come on the first boat.

24     However, I didn't catch the first but a later boat.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you speak with any former members of your unit

Page 21405

 1     before you gave your statement?

 2        A.   I told you that I reside on a small island just off the coast of

 3     Sibenik, and information does not reach us as easily as they -- as it

 4     does in town.  It was in the middle of the tourist season and I had my

 5     hands full of other things, and I didn't really occupy myself with all

 6     sorts of stories that I heard, or could tell.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Once you arrived in the building, did you speak with

 8     anyone about the statement, other than to the person that interviewed

 9     you?

10        A.   I don't think so.  Not only that I think that, I'm sure that I

11     didn't.  As soon as I arrived there, I was taken to -- to a different

12     room, and the rest stayed in the other room.  They closed a door behind

13     me, and I provided my statement there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said:  "... the rest stayed in the other

15     room."  Who was the rest?

16        A.   Babacic, Sudac Juricev, the tank man, and I don't know if there

17     was anybody else from HVIDRA.

18             There was another person, but I don't remember who he was.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  When you were interviewed in this room, was there

20     anyone else than you and the person that interviewed you?

21        A.   I don't think so, no.  It was his explicit request that there

22     should be just him and me.  I was surprised to hear that.  I thought that

23     maybe we could all be together, but he insisted it was just him and me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever see a video in relation with

25     Mr. Gojanovic's testimony?

Page 21406

 1        A.   Never.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't see it on television?

 3        A.   I saw him once on a programme called On Sunday at 2.00, when the

 4     anchor, called Stankovic, interviewed him.  And to be honest with you, he

 5     looked like a imbecile to me, not like a normal intelligent person.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you watch this programme after you had given

 7     your statement or prior to giving your statement, in 2008?

 8        A.   That was subsequently.  And what appalled me the most, and that's

 9     why I'm telling that he looked like a imbecile, when he said that him and

10     Petric established an association under the title "The Truth About the

11     Homeland War," and that the name-sake association existed in Bosnia and

12     in Serbia.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  The reason why you

14     considered him to look like a imbecile are not of such relevance that we

15     would continue with that.

16             I have no further questions for you.

17             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need to put further

18     questions to the witness?

19             Mr. Zafranovic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to

20     thank you very much for coming to the videolink facility and for having

21     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

22     Bench, and I would like to wish you a safe trip home again.

23             If could you just take off your earphones for a second.

24             Madam Registrar, could you, perhaps when you escort

25     Mr. Zafranovic out of the courtroom, could you please check whether

Page 21407

 1     Mr. Babacic is still on the premises or not, because we might consider to

 2     re-call him very briefly.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Will do, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If he is still on the premises, could you please ask

 5     him to stay -- stand by.

 6             We will first have a break, and we resume at five minutes to

 7     1.00, and then I take it you will report to us whether Mr. Babacic is

 8     still available.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Rak be escorted into the videolink room?

12             Yes.  Good afternoon, Mr. Rak.  Before you give evidence, I would

13     like to invite you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the

14     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  May I?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Rak, please be seated.

21             Mr. Rak --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I take it that you can see us and that can you

24     hear me in a language you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 21408

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You will first be examined by Mr. Misetic.

 2     Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN RAK

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Misetic:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.  Would you please state your name for the

10     record.

11        A.   Dragan Rak.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Madam Registrar, if we could, please, show the

13     witness Exhibit D197, please.

14        Q.   Mr. Rak, do you recall giving a statement to members of the

15     Gotovina Defence on the 8th of May, 2008?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And looking through that document that you're now being shown, is

18     that the statement that you signed on the 8th of May, 2008?

19        A.   It is.

20        Q.   And is that your signature in the bottom right-hand corner of the

21     first page?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Prior to coming to the Tribunal's field office in Zagreb today,

24     did you have a chance to review the statement?

25        A.   When I provided it on the 8th of May, 2008, it was clearly read

Page 21409

 1     out to me.  I read it myself, and I signed it.

 2        Q.   Since then, have you had a chance to look at that statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And is the statement accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

 5        A.   It is accurate.

 6        Q.   Do you wish to make any changes or additions to your statement?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   At the time you gave the statement, did you give it to the best

 9     of your knowledge and in accordance with the truth?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   If I asked you the same questions today in court that you were

12     asked on the 8th of May, 2008, would you provide the same answers today

13     in court that you provided in your signed witness statement of the 8th of

14     May, 2008?

15        A.   I would, indeed, the same.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I move for the admission of D197

17     into evidence.

18             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D197 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Mr. Rak, thank you for answering my questions.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

24             Mr. Rak, you will now be cross-examined by Ms. De Landri.

25     Ms. De Landri is counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 21410

 1             You may proceed, Ms. De Landri.

 2             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

 4        Q.   Mr. Rak, how many men were under your command when you were in

 5     the 113th Brigade?

 6        A.   860.

 7        Q.   And did you have a staff at that time?

 8        A.   A staff?  A staff of a battalion?  Yes, we had it in the

 9     Bribirski Knezovi barracks.

10        Q.   How many men were on the staff?

11        A.   The battalion command comprised 14 men.

12        Q.   Can you name the 14 men?

13        A.   I don't remember their names.

14        Q.   I want to direct your attention to the third full paragraph in

15     your statement, and in particular the events of August 4th that you refer

16     to.

17             The statement refers to heavy enemy resistance, and -- pardon me.

18     I just want to strike that.  And it refers to an attack that you

19     launched.  Due to heavy enemy resistance, your attack deceased.

20             Do you recall that?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And at that time you had wounded soldiers and one dead soldier;

23     is that right?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And you withdrew your soldiers to take care of your wounded; is

Page 21411

 1     that right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   And would it be fair to say that, under the circumstances, the

 4     welfare and safety of your men were uppermost in your mind?

 5        A.   Yes, that was the most important thing on my mind.

 6        Q.   And that would be true throughout all of Operation Storm,

 7     wouldn't it?

 8        A.   Yes, right.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Turning your attention to the events of August 5th, in the

10     fourth full paragraph.  You led a renewed attack, you say you organised

11     quarters for your soldiers.

12             Can you recall approximately how many soldiers there were there?

13        A.   On the entire axis, there were around 650 men altogether.

14        Q.   And turning to August 6th.  What happened on August 6th?

15        A.   The line reached in the village of Bribir.  I billeted my unit.

16     The accommodation or the soldiers who just arrived was provided.  They

17     arrived at the houses in Bribir.  The soldiers were given time to rest,

18     and then they went home.

19        Q.   Directing your attention to the last full paragraph of your

20     statement, where, in particular, you refer to Vladimir Gojanovic.  You

21     state you know him personally from 1992 or 1993.

22             How did you meet him?

23        A.   As far as I can remember, I met him at the Bribirski Knezovi

24     barracks in 1992 or 1993.  He was introduced to me by his brother Ivica

25     Gojanovic, who was an officer of the Croatian Army, my colleague.  I saw

Page 21412

 1     him wearing a uniform that conscripts wore and I concluded that, at the

 2     time, he was a conscript in the 113th Brigade.  After that I never saw

 3     him again.  I did not see him during Operation Storm or the time

 4     following Operation Storm while the unit was still in the theatre of war.

 5        Q.   You've described circumstances where you had a great deal of

 6     responsibility under a lot of stress.  Would it be fair to say that you

 7     might not have been in a position to see all of the participants of

 8     Operation Storm?

 9        A.   Of course.  It was impossible to see everybody.  It was

10     impossible to be everywhere at every moment.  But the period from the 3rd

11     of August, 1995 to the 15th of September, 1995 is too long a time for me

12     not to see him, if he had been there.

13        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to Court Exhibit 2.

14             Sir, do you have that document in front of you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Take a look at the first page.  And can you tell me whether or

17     not that conflicts with your recollection about whether or not Vladimir

18     Gojanovic was involved in the military during Operation Storm in Croatia?

19        A.   I've not seen this before, and as far as I can remember, this

20     does not correspond the truth.  It is not true that this person, the

21     person in question, was in my unit.

22        Q.   Do you have any reason to doubt the authenticity of this

23     document?

24        A.   As to who drafted the document and as to whether it is

25     authenticate or not it is not up to me to say.  This is down to a

Page 21413

 1     different body, the institution that issues such documents.  I was just a

 2     soldier.

 3        Q.   Well, could I direct your attention to the stamp on the bottom

 4     right-hand of the first page?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If only the original and not the translation is

 6     shown on the screen, could we have then the original also on our

 7     manageable screens so that we can zoom in and out, if we want.  Thank

 8     you.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Talking about the English translation, there seems

11     to be no English translation.

12             MR. MISETIC:  May I have the --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. MISETIC:  Ask that the witness take his earphones off.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, the Court will recall that this

17     document came when Mr. Gojanovic, over a weekend, came to court, and the

18     reason it's a court exhibit is he had it faxed from someone -- from a

19     friend of his to his hotel here, I believe, and then tendered it as a

20     court exhibit in evidence himself.  So if we're going to get into

21     questions of authenticity it traces back to Mr. Gojanovic himself.  As

22     far as I know, it didn't come from the Republic of Croatia directly, and

23     the reason there is no translation is because it wasn't provided by one

24     of the parties.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so The Chamber should have been -- I further

Page 21414

 1     find --

 2             One second, please.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  There are some more puzzles in relation to this

 5     document.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:  Just to clarify a matter relating to the

 8     translation, there was some colloquy on the record at the time when

 9     Mr. Gojanovic first testified back in May of 2008, and counsel is

10     correct, that he brought this document with him.  There was a discussion

11     on the record, I think, the page of the transcript was 3114 that the

12     registry was going have the document translated.  But in anticipation of

13     asking some questions about the document, we provided a translation for

14     counsel and the Court.  And so --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And where do I find it at this moment?

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  It is right behind

17     the original B/C/S.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I'm working electronically.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh, okay.

20             It's ET --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid that the Chamber has only access to

22     documents that were exhibited and any attached translations but -- and I

23     do not have my in e-court system any attached translation to this

24     document.

25             But perhaps Mr. Registrar is going to help us out.

Page 21415

 1             Perhaps meanwhile you already proceed and we'll wait for the

 2     assistance of the registrar.  Oh, it's now on the screen.

 3             Yes, please proceed.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  The witness, does he have his headphones on?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the witness been provided with a hard copy?

 6             Yes.

 7             Then please proceed.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  He doesn't have his headset on.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  Yes, you're right.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:

12        Q.   Sir, my question to you was:  Do you have any reason to doubt the

13     authenticity of this document?

14             MR. MISETIC:  It was asked and answered, Your Honour.

15             MS. DE LANDRI:  No, I'm afraid it wasn't answered.

16             MR. KEHOE:  [Microphone not activated] Yes, it was.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll check in the transcript.  One second, please.

18             Yes, the witness answered that it's not for him to authenticate.

19     The question, however, was whether there were any reasons for him to

20     doubt the authenticity, which is not -- therefore, the answer is not a

21     direct answer.

22             You can ask the witness again.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:

24        Q.   Sir, do you have any reason, looking at this document here today,

25     to doubt its authenticity?

Page 21416

 1        A.   The document doesn't indicate any units.  I doubt the

 2     authenticity of this document.  My version of the truth and the truth is

 3     that this gentleman was not in my battalion during Operation Storm.

 4        Q.   I'd like to ask you some questions about the circumstances of

 5     your coming to testify here today and giving a statement.

 6             Who asked you to give your statement?  Directing your attention

 7     back to May of 2008, who asked you to -- who originally approached you

 8     and asked you to give a statement in May of 2008?

 9        A.   I was first approached by Josko Babacic.  After that, gentleman

10     came who testified my witness statement.  We were in the same room,

11     myself, Mr. Marin Ivanovic, and Mr. Jozo Ribicic.

12        Q.   And when was that that?

13        A.   That was on the day when I provided my statement.

14        Q.   Just so the record is clear, were you contacted in advance of the

15     day that you provided your statement?

16        A.   Josko Babacic.

17        Q.   And when did that occur?

18        A.   That was -- I can't remember exactly.  A couple of days prior to

19     that.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             MS. DE LANDRI:

22        Q.   To the best of your recollection, can you tell us what he said to

23     you when he first contacted you about this matter?

24        A.   He said that that gentleman from the General's Defence team would

25     come, and that we would provide our statements about Operation Storm or,

Page 21417

 1     rather, about the truth of what happened during Operation Storm.

 2        Q.   And what did you say in response?

 3        A.   That he would call me when the gentleman arrived and that we

 4     would meet in the same rooms where I gave my statement to them.

 5        Q.   Mm-hmm.  Before you gave your statement, did anyone show you any

 6     documents related to the events that you were asked about?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   So who was present when you gave your statement?

 9        A.   Mr. Marin Ivanovic and Jozo Ribicic.

10        Q.   Okay.  And what was the date?

11        A.   The 8th of May.

12        Q.   And were you told what the statement was going to be used for?

13        A.   For the defence of the General.

14        Q.   Any more specifically, were you told what the statement would be

15     used for?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   In connection with your giving the statement, was the name

18     Vladimir Gojanovic mentioned?

19        A.   The name of Vladimir Gojanovic was mentioned because I had

20     previously watched his testimony over the Internet.

21        Q.   When you say you watched his testimony over the Internet, do you

22     recall when that was?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Was it before you gave your statement?

25        A.   Well, yes.

Page 21418

 1        Q.   And the date that you gave your statement was May 8th, 2008; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And it's your testimony that you watched his testimony here at

 5     the ICTY before you gave your statement; is that right?

 6        A.   I was following it.  I don't remember when it was.

 7        Q.   So were you mistaken when you just testified that you watched it

 8     before you gave your statement?

 9        A.   That's what I believe.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  Mr. President, I have no further questions of

12     this witness.  Just one housekeeping matter.  Can we have in the record

13     the translation of that military record linked to the exhibit number?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I'll say something about this exhibit in a

15     minute.

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But we'll have that done.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rak, I have a few questions for you.

21             You said Mr. Babacic contacted you.  It was that your --

22        A.   Yes --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- statement was needed.  Did you speak with him

24     about the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic?

25        A.   We spoke about our memories of the action during Operation Storm.

Page 21419

 1     And it wasn't easy to recall all the events, since a great many years

 2     have passed.

 3             He told me that Mr. Gojanovic had given a statement or his

 4     testimony, whether it was over the Internet or what, that he was a member

 5     of my unit and he asked whether I remembered him.  And that's how my

 6     statement was produced, where I said that, to the best of my

 7     recollection, he was not part of the action or a member of my unit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now could you tell us in more detail when did

 9     Mr. Babacic approach you?  Was that the day on which you gave the

10     statement, or the day before, or two days before; could you tell us?

11        A.   Earlier on.  That was several days earlier.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it was by telephone that you got in touch;

13     or did he come to your place?

14        A.   As far as I remember, it happened in Sibenik.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But do you remember whether it was by

16     telephone or whether you met in person?

17        A.   We met.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it at that occasion that you discussed the

19     untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic's -- his reports about being a member of

20     your unit?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Babacic make any link between the need to

23     have a statement and the, as you said -- or at least as -- the

24     untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic -- well, please, please.  Please.

25        A.   We discussed it and --

Page 21420

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If we speak at the same time, the interpreters and

 2     transcribers will not be able to put everything on the record.

 3             So did Mr. Babacic explain to you that your statement was needed

 4     in relation to this -- what he considered to be an untruthful testimony

 5     or statement by Mr. Gojanovic?

 6        A.   No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, as you said, you discussed the

 8     untruthfulness of Mr. Gojanovic, if I understood you well.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I don't -- I must interject.  I

10     don't believe that was said.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just, then, check exactly on the record what

12     was said.  One second, I have to find it.

13             Yes, you discussed, as you told us, you said that Mr. Babacic

14     told you that Mr. Gojanovic had given a statement on his testimony

15     whether, over the Internet, or what, and he was a member of my unit and

16     he had asked you whether he remembered -- I take it, you remembered him.

17     To the best of your recollection, he was not part of the action or a

18     member of your unit.

19             So did I understand you well, that Mr. Babacic told you that

20     Mr. Gojanovic had said that he had been a member of your unit and asked

21     you whether your recollection was the same?

22             Is that what you discussed?

23        A.   This is what the conversation was like.  That he had given a

24     statement with what he said; whereas, my statement was based solely on my

25     memory of these events.  It was not the result of anybody exerting any

Page 21421

 1     sort of pressure or influence over me.  It was purely the result of my

 2     memories.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And you told Mr. Babacic at that time that you had

 4     no recollection of Mr. Gojanovic being a member of your unit.  Did you

 5     tell him at that time; or did you wait until you gave your statement?

 6        A.   I told him at the time that I did not remember him from the

 7     period of Operation Storm as a member of my unit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Babacic tell you whether this would or would

 9     not be -- or would not be a specific subject your interview?

10        A.   He didn't know that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier said that you followed the proceedings

12     through Internet.  I'm not quite sure whether you, at a later stage --

13        A.   Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- withdrew that or whether you had personally seen

15     Mr. Gojanovic's testimony before this Tribunal through the Internet.

16        A.   Yes, I watched him.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did it upset you what he said?

18        A.   In view of the fact that, to the best of my recollection, what he

19     said were lies, yes, it did.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And when you say "lies," you would include that he

21     had been a member of your unit?

22        A.   He was not a member of my unit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But my question was whether that part of his

24     testimony also upset you.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21422

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did the testimony you watched through the Internet,

 2     was this in any way encouraging you to give a statement or ...

 3        A.   I felt the duty to tell the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Because Mr. Gojanovic had not told the truth.  Is

 5     that how I have to understand your explanation?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rak, if I would tell you that Mr. Gojanovic

 8     testified before this Court well after you had given your statement,

 9     could you explain your answers, in light of this fact which seems to be

10     not in dispute between the parties and for which there is substantial

11     evidence?

12        A.   I don't understand the question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Rak, you explained to us how the statement

14     of Mr. Gojanovic upset you and that it encouraged you to -- to give a

15     statement and that you had seen his testimony before you gave that

16     statement; whereas, in this courtroom --

17             MR. MISETIC:  I apologise, Mr. President, but the witness's

18     answer to your question was that it encouraged him to tell the truth.  "I

19     felt the duty to tell the truth," not I felt a duty to give a statement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I asked him whether it encouraged him to give

21     a statement.  The question was about that.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, but his answer is --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's --

24             Let me keep it, then, short.

25             Mr. Gojanovic testified in this court well after the day you have

Page 21423

 1     given your statement.  Could you reconcile that with the answers you have

 2     given to the questions that were put to you?

 3        A.   I don't understand the question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I took it from your answers that you had

 5     already seen and heard the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic before you gave

 6     your statement.

 7             Is that correctly understood?

 8        A.   I don't understand you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's keep matters short.

10             From your answers, I took it that you, first, followed, through

11     the Internet, the testimony of Mr. Gojanovic; and that, after that, you

12     gave your statement on the 8th of May.

13             Is that correctly understood?

14        A.   I gave the statement about Operation Storm in the course of -- of

15     the operation chronologically on the 8th of May.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But that was not my question.  My question was

17     whether you gave your statement after you'd heard and seen the testimony

18     of Mr. Gojanovic.

19        A.   I don't remember.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll check your previous answers.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, it's page 79, lines 21 to 23.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there is more than just one, but ...

23             MR. HEDARALY:  There's also a reference at page 83 about the

24     encouragement of the testimony, which, I think, is what Your Honour was

25     referring to.

Page 21424

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's not further discuss in the presence of

 2     the witness.

 3             Yes, Mr. Rak, we'll carefully read again your testimony.  The

 4     issue was that I understood from your answers that you had seen the

 5     testimony of Mr. Gojanovic which did upset you, because you said he gave

 6     lies and that when I asked you that, that that encouraged you.  And then

 7     you said:  "It encouraged me to tell the truth."

 8             Do you mean to say that it encouraged you to tell the truth in

 9     your statement, when being interviewed?

10        A.   When the interview was held with me, I only told the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And when you said it encouraged you to tell

12     the truth, did you mean to say that it encouraged you to tell the truth,

13     as you said you did, during the interview?

14        A.   Yes.  I was telling the truth when the interview was held with

15     me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you were encouraged to do so because you

17     had heard the lies of Mr. Gojanovic.  Is that how I have to understand

18     your --

19             Mr. Misetic.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. MISETIC:  I don't think the witness knows there's a question

22     pending to him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think --

24             You have not answered my last question.  Would you please do so?

25     Or if you want me to repeat it, then I'll do so.  Mr. Rak?

Page 21425

 1        A.   Can you please repeat it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll repeat my question.

 3             You told me that you were telling the truth when the interview

 4     was held with you.  And then I asked you -- and whether you were

 5     encouraged to do so because you had heard the lies of Mr. Gojanovic.

 6        A.   My statement would have been truthful, just as it is now,

 7     regardless of Gojanovic's statements.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not my question.  You apparently are

 9     evading to answer my question.

10        A.   I don't understand.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll then put the question in a different way.

12             You earlier said that the false statement of Mr. Gojanovic

13     encouraged you to tell the truth.  Where did you then tell the truth,

14     having become aware of the lies of Mr. Gojanovic?

15        A.   In relation to his statement that he was a member of my unit, I

16     answered that.  That's -- that's why I stated the truth in my statement.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I've no further questions for you, Mr. Rak.

19             Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need to --

20             MR. MISETIC:  May I just ask one question, Mr. President?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.  Let me -- one second, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Misetic:

Page 21426

 1        Q.   Mr. Rak, I just want to make sure we're clear:  Do you know or do

 2     you recall whether you gave your statement to the Gotovina Defence before

 3     or after Mr. Gojanovic testified here in The Hague?

 4        A.   I don't remember.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has no further questions.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  Nothing --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, also no further questions for you.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Rak, I'd like to thank you for coming to the

12     videolink room and for having answered the questions that were put to you

13     by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  For the parties to know that the Chamber, although

16     considering to re-call one of the other witnesses, the witness is not

17     available on the premises anymore.  For that reason, the Chamber refrains

18     from doing so; at least for this moment.

19             This concludes the videolink.

20                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I know we're running late, Mr. President, so should

23     we tomorrow move in the remaining exhibits under 92 bis.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We could do that.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

Page 21427

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no problem with that.  And I don't know

 2     whether you have tendered all the documents you have shown,

 3     Ms. De Landri.  I'm not quite sure.  It could be you have, but I'm not

 4     certain about it.

 5             MS. DE LANDRI:  I don't think so, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll deal with that also at the earliest

 7     occasion, and I have already stolen 15 minutes from interpreters,

 8     transcribers, security, everyone, and, of course, the parties.

 9             Therefore, we will adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday,

10     the 10th of September, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom III.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

13                           September, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.

14

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