Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23237

 1                           Monday, 26 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             I would like to put on the record that the videolink which was

14     granted for witnesses IC-01 and IC-02 has become moot because both

15     witnesses have been withdrawn from the witness list by the

16     Cermak Defence.

17             Then I -- there was a matter where the Prosecution was due to

18     inform the Chamber today, Mr. Waespi, not to be done in open court, but

19     do you have any idea on when you would want to inform the Chamber?

20             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, I have a written affidavit or

21     declaration by the investigator which I could file or deal with any way

22     you deem appropriate.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider that during the first break.

24     Thank you.

25             Then is the Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness, which

Page 23238

 1     I understand would be -- and apparently without protective measures,

 2     would be Emin Teskeredzic.

 3             MR. KAY:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam -- Mr. Usher.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

 9     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, that you will speak

10     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.  Please be seated.

15             Mr. Teskeredzic, you will first be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay

16     is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           WITNESS:  EMIN TESKEREDZIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Mr. Teskeredzic, I'd like you to look at the screen to your

25     right, and I'm going to ask to you look at a document that will come onto

Page 23239

 1     the screen, which is 2D00724.

 2             This is a statement that you signed for the Defence, and I want

 3     you to identify it.

 4             Can you see there on the right-hand side of the screen a

 5     statement -- [overlapping speakers] ...

 6        A.   Yes, can I.  I can see it.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... down at the bottom so that

 8     we can see your signature on it.  Do you identify your signature?

 9        A.   Yes, it is mine.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. KAY:  Perhaps now if we could look at the last page of the

12     document.

13        Q.   And can you see there your signature at the end of the document,

14     next to the date of the 26th of May, 2009?

15        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It is mine.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in between each page is signed by

18     Mr. Teskeredzic.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Teskeredzic, when you gave that statement to the Defence

20     and signed that statement, did you have an opportunity to read through it

21     and confirm the contents?

22        A.   Yes, I did, and I confirmed the contents.

23        Q.   Is everything that you have said in that statement, to the best

24     of your knowledge and belief, true and correct?

25        A.   Yes, it is true and correct.

Page 23240

 1        Q.   If I was to ask you in court today the same questions in respect

 2     of which you gave answers that gave the information in this statement,

 3     would those answers be the same today?

 4        A.   Yes, they would.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.

 6             MR. KAY:  In those circumstances, Your Honour, I ask that this

 7     statement be made an exhibit.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes

11     Exhibit D1732.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1732 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I will give a brief summary of the

16     statement before I go on to ask Mr. Teskeredzic some further questions.

17             Mr. Teskeredzic is, by occupation, someone involved in research,

18     in relation to maritime science.  During the conflict in the former

19     Yugoslavia he worked with a team in work of de-mining explosives.  He

20     worked for a waterborne operations unit, and his experience in working in

21     the decommissioning of mines and explosions caused him to work in various

22     areas of the conflict between 1992 and 1995.

23             At the time of Operation Oluja, he was not mobilized and was on

24     holiday; but after hearing of the liberation of the occupied territories

25     and hearing of the appointment of Mr. Cermak as the commander of the

Page 23241

 1     garrison in the town of Knin, he contacted Mr. Cermak an offered his

 2     services to help him in normalising life in Knin by decommissioning any

 3     booby-traps, mines, or explosives that may have been left behind by the

 4     RSK forces who had occupied the area previously.  He contacted former

 5     members of his unit.  He went to Knin and set about that kind of work on

 6     behalf of the community working for Mr. Cermak as required as well as

 7     Mr. Pasic.

 8             Because of his experience in fish and maritime matters, he also,

 9     with the help of others, restored the fish farm in Knin to enable it to

10     operate for the benefit of the town.  And during his work for Mr. Cermak

11     and Knin, he undertook various operations whereby he was de-mining areas

12     outside the town to make various public installations safe.

13             Your Honour, that's the summary of his statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

15             MR. KAY:

16        Q.   Mr. Teskeredzic, I'm now going ask you some specific questions in

17     relation to your evidence.  And is it correct that at the time of

18     Operation Oluja, you were not in fact mobilized?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   And did you voluntarily contact Mr. Cermak to see if you could

21     give him any help in Knin?

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23        Q.   And did Mr. Cermak accept your offer of assistance?

24        A.   Yes, he did.

25        Q.   Did you contact members of your former unit to establish whether

Page 23242

 1     they would be able to come and help you in your work in Knin?

 2        A.   Yes.  I contacted them and made arrangements with them.

 3        Q.   And did they come and join you over the next few days and operate

 4     with you in Knin?

 5        A.   Yes, they did, and they operated with me.

 6        Q.   In relation to your work in munitions de-mining, what were the

 7     particular matters that you were concerned with in Knin at this time?

 8        A.   Specifically, we checked the railway lines, specific facilities.

 9     We found a storage place close to the railway line; we emptied it.  We

10     transferred the contents to the military depot.  We followed the railway

11     line toward Zadar and toward Gracac.  Individuals would approach us who

12     had returned -- who wanted to return to their homes and wanted to us

13     check if the area was safe.  We also had to check the electricity grid

14     facilities, including electricity posts, which we had to check the safety

15     of before electricity workers could commence their work, so that the

16     electricity supply would be restored to Knin.

17        Q.   After a period of time, were steps taken by you and Mr. Cermak to

18     have you officially mobilized, in relation to your work in the area?

19        A.   Yes.  He sent a request to my institute, asking that I be

20     relieved of my duties for a certain period of time, and he did the same

21     for my associates, who were there working with me.

22             MR. KAY:  If we could look at Exhibit D1027, please.

23        Q.   A document is going to come up on the right-hand screen again.

24     Mr. Teskeredzic, I'd like you to look at that document in your own

25     language.  It's dated the 19th of August, 1995.  It's signed by

Page 23243

 1     Mr. Cermak.  And it's addressed to the Rudjer Boskovic Institute in

 2     Zagreb.

 3             First of all, can you confirm that the Rudjer Boskovic institute

 4     in Zagreb was the place where you were working at that time?

 5        A.   Yes, I worked for the Institute at the time.

 6        Q.   And are you currently working there now, in fact?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We can see here that its subject is request for

 9     relief from employment, and it reads about the exceptional need to

10     organise pyrotechnical clearance of the terrain and facilities and

11     removal of mine and explosive devices and ammunition.  And we can see

12     that it states that had you been carrying out the activities since the

13     6th of August, and a request is made to relieve you from your employment

14     until further notice.

15             Did you see this letter at the time?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And was it your idea or Mr. Cermak's idea that it should be

18     written to the Institute?

19        A.   The idea was mine.  I was on annual leave for a while, and I was

20     supposed to report back to work.  So my status had to be settled, in a

21     way, and it was done through the request addressed to the Institute to

22     relieve me of my permanent duties so that I may attend to the duties I

23     had in Knin at the time.

24             MR. KAY:  If we could now turn to Exhibit D1026.

25        Q.   This is another letter dated the 19th of August, 1995, sent by

Page 23244

 1     Mr. Cermak to the Ministry of Defence in Zagreb, mobilisation

 2     administration, and is a request for mobilisation in relation to the work

 3     we described of you, a Colonel Domancic, and Lieutenant Tomsic.

 4             And were you aware of that letter being written at that time by

 5     Mr. Cermak, requesting your mobilisation by the Ministry of Defence?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.

 7        Q.   Colonel Domancic, Lieutenant Tomsic; what was your connection

 8     with them?

 9        A.   They were members of the same unit that I was previously.  And

10     Domancic was my deputy, and he was a top-notch explosives expert.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  Next document, D1028.

13        Q.   If you could just look at this document.  It's from the

14     Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, dated the

15     6th of September.  Subject: Mobilisation of servicemen.  Our response to

16     the Knin garrison, signed by General Gotovina.

17             And we can see the information in the letter, but it's the last

18     sentence, the Defence minister did not agree to the mobilisation of the

19     requested individuals.

20             Were you aware that the minister of defence had refused the

21     initial request to mobilise you and your colleagues made by Mr. Cermak?

22        A.   No, I was not aware of it.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. KAY:  If we could now look to the next document, 2D00254.

25     It's a letter dated the 11th of September, 1995.  It's from the

Page 23245

 1     Knin garrison by Mr. Cermak and addressed to the minister of defence in

 2     Zagreb, Mr. Susak.  And its subject is a request.  And were -- we can see

 3     from the letter written there that, because of the need for de-mining

 4     terrain structures, we were forced during Operation Storm to take

 5     de-miners without a mobilisation call-up, for whom we later issued

 6     mobilisation call-ups, dated the 4th of September ...

 7             It's stated that the letter we've just looked at on the 6th of

 8     September denied the request and that the minister of defence had not

 9     given his approval.  And then the last paragraph:

10             Since the - it's got military conscripts here - are still in the

11     field and are necessary, due to the extent of the work and their

12     expertise, they cannot be paid a salary until they receive your approval.

13     And the request is made for the mobilisation.

14             Were you aware that General Cermak had written to Minister Susak

15     to try and obtain the mobilisation of you and your colleagues?

16        A.   I know that he took steps to have us mobilised.  Now, who he

17     wrote to in the process, I don't know.  We had a great deal of work to

18     do, and I simply did not give it any thought.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. KAY:  If we look at page 2 of the letter, we will see a list

21     of de-miners.

22        Q.   And do you recognise the names there?  Of course, not only your

23     own, but of the others?  Were they part of your team?

24        A.   Yes, they were.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23246

 1             MR. KAY:  If we can now go to -- oh, Your Honour, may this

 2     document be made an exhibit.  Thank you.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  No objections.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document will become

 6     Exhibit D1733.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D1733 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

 9             The next document I'd like us to look at is 65 ter 4635.

10        Q.   It's a letter dated the 18th of September, 1995, from the

11     Administration for Compulsory Military Service and Mobilisation sent to

12     the Knin garrison.  And we can see that on that date the letter says,

13     based on the Article 55 that the Ministry of Defence approved the request

14     of garrison an ordered the mobilisation of four of the listed people,

15     including yourself.  The name Drago Margus is missing from the previous

16     list.

17             Are you able to help why his name was missing from this list?

18        A.   Probably because he worked in -- at the fish breeding farm most

19     of the time and did not engage in mine clearance on -- to that extent.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And we can see what the letter says, about the report

21     that is required to be submitted after completion of mobilisation.  And

22     that they were to be received by General Cermak and the various

23     addressees, including Split Military District Command that this was

24     addressed to.

25             Thank you.

Page 23247

 1             If we could now turn to the next document.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  No objections if it's to be tendered, this one.

 3             MR. KAY:  Yeah, I was calling up the next one while I was going

 4     to then tender it.

 5             Can that document be made an exhibit, please, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no objections, Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

 8     Exhibit D1734.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. KAY:  Can we have -- sorry, Your Honour.

11             Can we have Exhibit D767, please.

12        Q.   This document is dated the 20th of September, 1995, from the

13     Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, to the Knin

14     garrison.  And, again, pursuant to Article 55 of the Law on Defence, the

15     order is made.  The following may be mobilized for Military Post 3231,

16     Knin.  And we see the list of names there, this time including

17     Drago Margus, to be mobilized, to report to the Knin garrison, to be

18     received by Colonel -- General Cermak.  And when mobilisation has been

19     implemented, a report was to be sent to the Split Military District

20     Command, section for mobilisation, Knin forward command post.  And the

21     end of the letter -- order says:  Following the execution of the tasks

22     planned - this is on page 3 - demobilize conscript, issue them with

23     certificates, and inform the responsible defence offices where the

24     conscripts' records are kept of this, signed by General Gotovina.

25             Were you aware at that time that the mobilisation was eventually

Page 23248

 1     granted by the Minister of Defence, Mr. Susak, as well as by

 2     General Gotovina?

 3        A.   Yes, I was.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             Was a report on the work of the explosive ordnance disposal team

 6     for the period from August to September 1995 filed by you?

 7        A.   There was a report, yes.

 8             MR. KAY:  Perhaps if we can look at Exhibit D1030.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting, Mr. Kay, I didn't find the

10     18th of September approval, which is now D1734 on your exhibit list to be

11     used.  Was it on your 65 ter list?

12             MR. KAY:  It's on the Prosecution 65 ter list.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It's on the Prosecution 65 ter list.

14             MR. KAY:  Yes, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So I --

16             MR. WAESPI:  But not for this witness.  It's on the general

17     65 ter list.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I take it, then, Mr. Waespi, that no

19     objections would include the introduction of the document as a potential

20     exhibit?

21             MR. WAESPI:  No, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- in view of my question, I would have

25     expected a yes.  But I took it that there would be no objection and no

Page 23249

 1     means here no objection.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   We have, on our screen in front of us, a report dated the 22nd of

 5     September, 1995, and we see the list of names there.

 6             Were those the individuals who made up your team, in relation to

 7     the ordnance disposal work?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, they were.

 9        Q.   And if we look at the work that's itemised there, we see the

10     railway, hydroelectric power, diary, trout farm in Srb.  Trout farm,

11     Krcic; Knin; Gips; Tvik; and various other places, institutions.

12             Was that work the work that you and your team had undertaken?

13        A.   Yes, that's the sort of work we did.

14        Q.   Civilian facilities identified.  Military facilities.  Kosovo

15     warehouses in Kosovo.

16             What were those warehouses?  Can you remember what those

17     facilities were?

18        A.   These were military facilities along the Krka river.  One of the

19     military facilities was Vitorog relay centre.  There was a large amount

20     of explosive there.  There were 15 trenches with the 400 kilos of

21     explosive -- explosives.  There was a train we found in a tunnel that was

22     loaded with explosives.  There was another warehouse at Bender, up at the

23     railway station above Knin close to a private home, where we found a

24     great amount of explosives that were transported to Knin, and from there

25     on to Sibenik.

Page 23250

 1        Q.   You mentioned Bender.  Can you describe what you did in relation

 2     to Bender, how those munitions were discovered, and how you went there?

 3        A.   When we were checking the railway line, we came across the

 4     storage facility.  We had to walk along the railway line, and as we found

 5     the storage place or the warehouse we went back to Knin to seek

 6     assistance from Mr. Cermak, in terms of organising means of transport.

 7     There were 70 to 80 tons of ammunitions that we found up there.  We had

 8     maps, since we weren't that sure of the route we were supposed to take.

 9     Mr. Cermak organised for Mr. Pero Pasic to accompany us.  He hailed from

10     that particular place, and he knew his way there.  So it took us two or

11     three trips to load all of the ammunitions, and I believe that we have a

12     record stating exactly the amount of explosives found there and what sort

13     of ammunition it involved.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. KAY:  I'd like to look at Exhibit D763, please.

16        Q.   This is a document headed order from the Knin garrison, signed by

17     General Cermak.  And it refers to the urgent clearing of the military

18     depot in Plavno, and with the aim of making the return of the population

19     to this settlement as flexible and fast as possible.  "And I hereby issue

20     the following order.  Clear the facility and the terrain in the village

21     of Plavno as urgently as possible.  Person responsible, Lieutenant Vuk.

22             "Make the mines and explosives," et cetera, "in the warehouse the

23     priority.  Person responsible: Lieutenant Vuk."

24             And a commission was appointed, including you and a report to be

25     filed after the task, and the resources should be transferred to the

Page 23251

 1     section of the logistics base in Sibenik.

 2             Does this order from General Cermak relate to that munitions that

 3     you were describing as being found near Knin?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. KAY:  If we go to Exhibit D1020.

 7        Q.   We can see the report from Colonel Frkic on the confiscation of

 8     the materiel and equipment from the railway station depot, Plavno-Benderi

 9     hamlet to General Cermak.  And describes going to Bender and finding

10     weapons and munition and that it was taken away to the 306th Logistics

11     Base in Sibenik.

12             Is that correct, as a description in this report, as to what

13     happened?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You said there was munitions and explosives found here.  What --

16     what would be -- what was the quantity, what was the scale of the

17     discovery of munitions found in this place?

18        A.   It wasn't a military depot but, rather, a building belonging to a

19     cooperative or something like.  There were Zoljas, there were

20     machine-guns, ammunitions, and hand-grenades.  We made the exact list.  I

21     can't remember anymore how much we found of each type of explosive, but

22     there were about 80 tons altogether.  We had to take two truck-loads.  We

23     couldn't transport it all at once.

24        Q.   If we look at the next page, we see a list.

25             Just cast your eye down that to look at the type of munitions

Page 23252

 1     that were found.  We can see a hand-held rocket-launcher, rocket,

 2     grenades, shells.

 3             If we turn to page 2 now, we see further munitions.

 4             Where -- was this materiel held in a secure way?  How was it held

 5     in this building?

 6        A.   It was kept -- the cellar of that building.  I can't say that the

 7     place was too secure.

 8        Q.   And did this kind of materiel being in the area at the time, was

 9     that a danger?

10        A.   Yes, it was a great danger.  Even we felt insecure, because there

11     could have been a booby-trap in any of those cases, and we could have all

12     been blown up.  So it was a very dangerous job.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KAY:  If we could now look at Exhibit D765.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, could I just seek one piece of

16     clarification on this list.

17             Under number 2 it reads 64 millimetre M-80 Zolja RBR.  Was that

18     ammunition, or were these rocket-launchers; do you remember?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rocket-launchers,

20     hand-held rocket-launchers.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   Is the quantity there 158?

24             I would move from the page, sorry.

25             MR. KAY:  Can we just go back to the second page.

Page 23253

 1             Oh, if it's ... I'm sorry, I didn't realize we'd moved on.

 2             Your Honour, we -- took us back and the other document was

 3     already there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes, the Croatian has 158 ...  Thank you.

 6             Yeah, well, we can see that, no question arises.  Can we go back

 7     to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, however the -- the list says that there

 9     were 158 boxes.  The unit being a box, the quantity being 158.

10             Does that mean that there were 158 boxes containing

11     Zolja hand-held rocket-launchers, Mr. Teskeredzic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I believe that there were

13     158 pieces of these rocket-launchers, but I can't really remember

14     exactly.  There was a huge amount of everything there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You said there was a huge amount of

16     everything.  But this out as the second -- no, third highest number of

17     equipment --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were that many.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

21             MR. KAY:

22        Q.   And just looking at number 3, 82-millimetre M-60 BST recoilless

23     gun rocket, 22.  Is that 22 recoilless gun rockets or shells or bullets,

24     whatever they are?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23254

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not an answer to the question, I'm

 3     afraid.

 4             Is this -- let me just check first.

 5             Yes, so that is -- perhaps it is an answer, but perhaps I'm not

 6     sufficiently familiar.  That means that it is 22 rockets to be fired by a

 7     recoilless gun.  Is that how I have to understand item number 3 on this

 8     list?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.

13        Q.   I think the rest is self-explanatory.

14             MR. KAY:  Shall we go to Exhibit D765.

15        Q.   We can see here a request for temporary transfer written on the

16     22nd of August by General Cermak to Colonel General Cuk of the

17     1st Croatian Guards Corps.  And referring to the exceptional need to

18     carry out explosive ordnance clearing of terrain and facilities.  And

19     then requesting Major Vuk, Lieutenant Plemencic, Junior

20     Lieutenant Perkovic to be transferred to the garrison as the individuals,

21     as per a request dated the 8th of August, 1995, were engaged in the work.

22     And Colonel Gregorovic was informed of this request on 15th of August and

23     the matter needed to be resolved promptly and requesting the temporary

24     transfer of two More, Lieutenant Teskeredzic, Staff-sergeant Halas.

25             Were you aware at the time of Mr. Cermak also seeking other

Page 23255

 1     members to be involved with the ordnance clearing, including a

 2     Lieutenant Teskeredzic?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And is Lieutenant Teskeredzic related to you?

 5        A.   Yes, that is my son.

 6        Q.   And was he involved in ordnance clearance as well?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             Did you also file further reports on the clearing of the Vitorog

10     railway relay junction?

11             MR. KAY:  If we can see Exhibit D1031.

12        Q.   Was this a report filed by you concerning the Vitorog relay

13     junction?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  No further questions on that.

17        Q.   Moving now to other work, did you become involved in the repair

18     of the fish farm in Knin?

19        A.   Yes.  This is my area of expertise, and this is where I could

20     help most.

21        Q.   What did you discover in relation to the fish farm?  What was its

22     condition and state?

23        A.   The fish farm needs to be cleaned.  The screens need to be

24     cleaned every day.  When you breed trouts, the water needs to circulate

25     up to 120 times a day, so you need a large quantity of water.  Once you

Page 23256

 1     stop this circulation of water, once the screens are filled with leaves

 2     or any other material, the fish start to die.  So we needed to establish

 3     the normal conditions as soon as possible, to prevent fish from dying.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you issue a report to Mr. Cermak telling him

 5     about the condition of the trout farm and what you found there?

 6        A.   Yes, I did report to him.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that's Exhibit D1033.  I don't propose to

 8     go into it in any further detail as it's dealt with in the statement.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It is in evidence.

10             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  If we can just have a look at Exhibit D2D00547.  65 ter

13     2D00547.

14        Q.   Can you see this document dated the 18th of September?

15        A.   Yes, I can see that.

16        Q.   And it's -- it's headed Split Military District Command, Knin

17     forward command post, and it's a proposal for commendation of the

18     president of Croatia concerning tasks carried out after Storm, and a list

19     of names there of the individuals and yourself who had been identified as

20     part of your team for a commendation from the president.

21             Were you aware that you had been put forward, you and your team,

22     for a commendation in relation to the work that you had done?

23        A.   Yes, I was aware of that.

24        Q.   Did you receive a commendation for your work?

25        A.   No.

Page 23257

 1        Q.   And we can see on -- if we go to page 2, a statement of reasons

 2     filed signed by the Knin garrison commander, General Cermak, and a

 3     description of the nature of the work that was involved.

 4             Thank you, no need to ask you further questions about that.

 5             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  I have no objection but just to -- to make sure

 7     there are no misunderstandings in the transcript, the letter stems from

 8     the Knin garrison and is addressed to the Knin forward command post.

 9             MR. KAY:  Yes, I'm sorry, my mistake, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document Exhibit D1735.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D1735 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KAY:  That's all I need ask.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Kay, I have one question for

16     you.  You have more or less reconstructed the mobilisation history of

17     this witness.  Now we start mid-August asking for retroactive effect.

18     Then you've shown us the 6th of September decision on the matter, which

19     was then repeated -- the request was then repeated.

20             Now, the 6th of September document refers to something, a

21     document on the 4th of September, and that's apparently -- and I'm

22     referring you to D17 -- is it -- no.  Let me just have a look.

23             MR. KAY:  [Microphone not activated] D1028, the 6th of September.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is the one that refers to -- that's the

25     rejection of the request for mobilisation.  That refers to a document on

Page 23258

 1     4th of September which we have not seen.  So that to extent there seems

 2     to be a gap in the reconstruction.  Is it your intention to produce that,

 3     or is there any specific reason why if not dealt with the 4th of

 4     September request, and you just jumped from mid-August to the 6th of

 5     September.

 6             MR. KAY:  Can I just make things clear.  Nothing is being hidden

 7     away from Your Honour because I want to make it clear that we just find

 8     the materials 15 years later that we find.  And if a document is missing

 9     in chain of correspondents, it's not for want of looking by my team and

10     me through various databases to try and pull together all -- all the

11     links.

12             Sometimes you -- we are unable to find a missing document and

13     much time and energy goes into trying to make the link.  So I do remind

14     the Court that, that when we do put together links of -- of these

15     documents, we're not trying to hide anything from the Court, if something

16     is missing, we have actually done our best out of very dispirit sources

17     from the Prosecution 65 ter list where you might find one document --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, if you say we don't have the document,

19     that's the reason why it's not there, that explains your situation.  And

20     then, of course -- but it was presented immediately following the 18th of

21     -- or the 19th of August request -- was it the 19th?  I think it was.

22             MR. KAY:  19th, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

24             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for us to note that there is a missing element

Page 23259

 1     in the reconstruction.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.  The passage is it goes mobilisation, refusal;

 3     then to the minister of defence, refusal; and then eventually it gets a

 4     -- a permission that is granted.  That's the -- the journey of this

 5     particular matter.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi would, have you a copy of this document

 7     of the 9th -- of the 4th of September?

 8             MR. WAESPI:  I don't have it, but I can try to -- to get it for

 9     you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  A complete picture is always better than a

11     half-complete picture.

12             MR. KAY:  We would be absolutely grateful for that, but we have

13     not been able to find anything.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Then the other Defence teams.

16             Any questions, Mr. Kehoe?

17             MR. KEHOE:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

21             Mr. Waespi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

22             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, I am, Mr. President.  Just one moment.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Teskeredzic, you will now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. Waespi.  Mr. Waespi is counsel for the Prosecution.

25             Just for my information, Mr. Kay said Mr. Teskeredzic.  I said

Page 23260

 1     Mr. Teskeredzic.  What's the right way of pronouncing your name?  Because

 2     I'd like to do it appropriately.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Teskeredzic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.

 9             Did you have an academic degree?

10        A.   Yes, I graduated from the school of veterinary medicine.  I am an

11     -- I have an MA in oceanology.  I also have a Ph.D. at the Faculty of

12     Agriculture, and I am a scientific advisor, which means that I am a full

13     time university teacher.

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  Because I also have difficulties to

15     pronounce your name, so I will call you doctor if that's fine.

16        A.   That's quite okay.  Thank you.

17        Q.   I would like to start by clarifying your functions within the

18     Croatian Army as I can see them from your witness statement, which is

19     D1732 in paragraph 2.

20             Now, I understand that in July 1991 you joined the Croatian

21     Defence, and then you became the commander of the special de-mining and

22     waterborne operations.  From when to when were you the commander of that

23     unit?

24        A.   So from that first day, the date that you quoted, until the end

25     of 1994.

Page 23261

 1        Q.   And Colonel Jerko Domancic was your deputy?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And was he also your deputy when you went with your team to Knin

 4     in August 1995?

 5        A.   Yes.  He's the best expert, the top expert for explosives and

 6     mine clearance.  This is why I always had him at hand.

 7        Q.   And I understand that the members of your team whom you took with

 8     you in 1995 were also, by and large, the members you had when you

 9     commanded that unit between 1991 and 1994; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.

12             Now, another point I wanted to clarify with you is in paragraph 4

13     of your statement where you say that you learned about the appointment of

14     Mr. Cermak as the commander of the Knin garrison on the radio.

15             Do you remember when that was and what the message was on the

16     radio?

17        A.   As I stated here, I was interested in knowing what was going on.

18     I was on holiday.  When I learned that Mr. Cermak was appointed commander

19     of the Knin garrison, I phoned him, an offered my assistance together

20     with my colleagues in normalising life in Knin.  It was a news item on

21     the radio that I heard about him being appointed to that duty.  That's

22     all I can tell you.

23        Q.   On what day was that?  On the 6th of August, or on the 5th of

24     August?

25        A.   It was on the 5th of August, because I believe that I was already

Page 23262

 1     in Knin on the 6th.

 2        Q.   And do you remember which radio station it was that you listened

 3     to and heard that message?

 4        A.   The Zagreb Radio or the TV.  I believe it was even a TV

 5     broadcast.  But those are the media I followed at the time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, you referred to the radio in the

 7     statement.  It's media in the statement.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 8     And the word "radio" for the first time appears on page 25, line 10.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  I think, Mr. President, in paragraph 4, line 5, it

10     says, "Later I heard about his appointment on the radio as well."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  Yes.  You're right.  I focussed on the

12     second line, which was incomplete.  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Let's move on to paragraph 5 of your witness statement, where you

16     state that on your way to Knin you stopped in Zadar and reported to

17     General Gotovina's headquarters.

18             Now, what kind of headquarter was that, if you remember?

19        A.   There was the army that was under his command there.  Since I was

20     heading for a war zone, I wanted to be well-informed so that I do not

21     happen to come across enemy forces.  I wanted to know what the situation

22     was like in Knin.

23        Q.   You talked to the duty officer.  Do you remember his -- according

24     to your witness statement.  Do you remember his rank or his name?

25        A.   I really do not, no.

Page 23263

 1        Q.   And then you go on to say that you wanted to have an employee

 2     from that headquarters, I guess, assigned to you as, you know, somebody

 3     to guide you through that war zone.  Was an employee assigned to you?

 4        A.   Somebody did come along, but I cannot really remember who it was.

 5     There was the general excitement of the times, and 15 years later, I can

 6     hardly remember the faces, let alone names.  I do remember a person

 7     accompanying me, since it was not all that safe.

 8        Q.   Then you go on to say that you informed your colleagues,

 9     Colonel Domancic, Mr. Tomsic, Ivo Maljur, and Mr. Vuk.  And I think they

10     were in Zagreb and in Hvar at the time.  How did you contact them?

11        A.   By telephone.

12        Q.   From where?

13        A.   I think that I phoned them back in Osor, where I was.  Initially

14     I phoned them to find out what the situation was like.  So as soon as I

15     found out about Mr. Cermak's appointment, I was in touch with them.

16        Q.   And Osor, that was where you were, I think you said, on vacation?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Where is that approximately?

19        A.   Osor is a place on the island of Cres.  It is located on the

20     verge between the island of Cres and Losinj, and we have a house there.

21        Q.   And looking at Split, is that north of Split or south of Split on

22     the Croatian coast?

23        A.   North of Split.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the team you described, these various names with

25     Colonel Domancic as the deputy, you were the leader of that team; is that

Page 23264

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, let's go to -- briefly to your mobilisation again.  It's

 4     been dealt with by -- by Mr. Kay.  You were mobilised into the Knin

 5     military -- the Knin garrison.  Is that correct?  That's the VP number,

 6     the unit you were mobilised into, assigned into.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that was done at the request of General Cermak.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then we know from D1027 - we don't need to pull that up

11     again - that you started to work immediately on the 6th of August without

12     the paperwork, without any formal authorisation from the authorities

13     above Mr. Cermak being ready at that time.  You started to work

14     immediately.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So Mr. Cermak was clearly able to get in touch with you, or you

17     got in touch with him, and make you and your team available to work with

18     him without having, at that time, the authorisation of his superiors; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   That's correct, yes.

21        Q.   In paragraph 9 of your witness statement, you state that you

22     responded to every request for assistance.

23             Now, from whom did you receive these requests, if you recall?

24        A.   Of course, I do.  There were people arriving who were returning

25     to their homes.  There were representatives of the electricity supply

Page 23265

 1     company, representatives of -- or, rather, members of military units who

 2     asked us to accompany them when they had to check the railway line

 3     because there weren't that many of them, and we did in fact go out to

 4     check the railway lines.

 5             We were volunteers, and we were there to respond to anyone's

 6     call.  Our duty at the time was to help prevent any serious incident

 7     happening resulting in injury or damage to anyone or anything.

 8        Q.   Was Lieutenant Vuk also part of your team?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now let's look at D763, and we have seen this document already

11     this morning.

12             So this document shows that members of your team were ordered by

13     General Cermak to do certain things.  Is that correct?  If you look at

14     paragraph 1.

15        A.   Given the huge amount of explosives and ammunition present in the

16     area, there was need for all of it to be taken out, removed, and, thus,

17     to remove the danger that threatened everyone.

18        Q.   And General Cermak made Lieutenant Andjelko Vuk responsible

19     according to this document to clear the facility and terrain in the

20     village of Plavno as urgently as possible.

21             Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you also served on -- on a commission that was established by

24     General Cermak, as we see in paragraph 3.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23266

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             In paragraph 9 of your witness statement, you address the

 3     personnel, I believe, and I want to talk a little bit about gentleman

 4     Modrusan and Dr. Margus.  It was General Cermak who made it possible that

 5     these two gentlemen were made available to you.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Where is that?

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Let's go to D1119.

 8        Q.   Here you see an order by General Cermak --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   By General Cermak that Mr. Zvonko Modrusan, an employee of, I

11     believe, your institute, to come and be placed at the disposal of the

12     Knin garrison commander.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   So Mr. Cermak was capable of organising people so you could do

15     your job; is that correct?

16        A.   He tried to bring in people who could help us deal with certain

17     matters.  In this case, it involved a fish farm.

18        Q.   And Mr. Modrusan, he showed up and helped you to deal with these

19     issues of the fish farm; is that correct?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   And the same is true with Dr. Margus.  It's the same story.

22     Mr. Cermak, he --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.    -- ordered him to come, and Mr. -- Dr. Margus actually showed up

25     as well.

Page 23267

 1        A.   Ordered.  Asked.

 2        Q.   Where do you see the word "ask" in D1119?

 3        A.   Well, you see, he couldn't order him.  He couldn't order the

 4     institute.  It may have been an error on his part.  Also in my case, he

 5     wrote an order whereas he should have written a request, something to

 6     that effect.

 7        Q.   But you agree with me that Mr. Cermak used the word "order"?

 8        A.   Yes.  But it -- to me, it seems to be an error, because who is it

 9     -- is he sending this to, really?

10        Q.   Did you see the -- this document for the first time?

11        A.   No, no.  I've seen the document.  But, you see, he is sending an

12     order but to the attention of the Rudjer Boskovic Institute.

13        Q.   Have you told the Defence team when you were shown the order or

14     after you were shown the order that you thought this was a mistake?

15        A.   Yes.  In my view, the Rudjer Boskovic Institute and the national

16     park, they all came there of their own accord.  What was required was a

17     formal document that would relieve these people of their regular duties

18     so that they could come and deal with these matters.

19        Q.   And in paragraph 2 of this document you also say -- it also

20     states that this order shall take effect immediately?

21        A.   Well, yes.  Because they were already there on the spot.  We were

22     already engaged in our activities, and those of us who went there had to

23     have some sort of a paper, a formality so that we could engage in mine

24     clearance so as to save lives, and in dealing with the fish farm to save

25     the fish stock there.  So there needed to be a formal document indicating

Page 23268

 1     that the stated individuals were engaged in such and such activities of

 2     clearance and maintenance.

 3        Q.   Now, a moment ago, I asked you whether you told the Defence that

 4     you thought this was a mistake, and you said yes, on line 12 of page 31.

 5             Now, when did you tell the Defence that you thought this order

 6     was a mistake?  Or was that "yes" just an acknowledgment of my -- of my

 7     question?

 8        A.   I don't understand.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me repeat the question.

10             Did you tell the Defence whether you thought that this order of

11     General Cermak was a mistake or an error on his part?  Did you tell that

12     to the Defence?

13        A.   Well, as far as I remember, I don't think we discussed the matter

14     at all.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.

16             Maybe we could --

17        A.   Teskeredzic [In English] My name is very difficult for other --

18        Q.   Yes, let me call you doctor then again.  Thank you, Doctor.

19             MR. WAESPI:  Perhaps, Mr. President - that's easier to say - it's

20     time for a break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which gives you some time for training your

22     mouth musculature, Mr. Waespi.

23             We will have a break.

24             Could you give us any indication as to how much time you would

25     need?

Page 23269

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Not that much.  About half an hour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Half an hour.  Then that opens the perspective of

 3     finishing the -- concluding the testimony of this witness relatively

 4     early today.

 5             Mr. Kay, is the next witness already stand by.

 6             MR. KAY:  I think the next witness is on his way.  He was being

 7     brought this morning because the estimates were that this witness would

 8     be a day.  So the decision was made to bring him this morning rather than

 9     have a potential stay overnight.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which has what consequence, that you have not

11     spoken to him yet?

12             MR. KAY:  The consequence is, Your Honour, that we would finish

13     early today and start that witness tomorrow.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider that.

15             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Teskeredzic, let's go to D765.  I think you have seen the

22     document this morning.  It's a request for temporary transfer of a few

23     people, including Mr. Andjelko Vuk, although, in English, his rank is

24     major.  I think he was a lieutenant, wasn't he?

25        A.   No, he was a major.

Page 23270

 1        Q.   Thank you.  The names here, Vuk, Plemencic, Perkovic, your son,

 2     Mr. Halas.  Who suggested these names to -- to Mr. Cermak that they would

 3     be suitable to -- to work for you?

 4        A.   I did.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

 6             Let's move to another issue, and this is 65 ter 2136.

 7             Now, here, we have a letter dated 27th August, and it's addressed

 8     to the chief of the -- and I quote, "State Administration for the

 9     Protection of Natural Resources and Cultural Heritage."

10             Perhaps you want to read the document quickly for yourself.

11        A.   Yes, I've read it.

12        Q.   Now, it mentions in paragraph 1, equipment specified which

13     apparently is in the possession of the chief of this institution.  And

14     it's to be delivered to the Knin garrison command to you,

15     Mr. Teskeredzic.

16             Now, what kind of equipment was that, if you recall?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the military post that I belonged to

18     previously.  They borrowed to the -- the equipment to the state

19     administration, to Mr. Marijan Orlic.  When I left the army, the

20     equipment was not returned.  We remembered at that point that it should

21     not stay in the domain of the state administration; rather, that it

22     should be returned to the army.  And this is the equipment, divers'

23     equipment that was needed to check whether at the Roski waterfall, out in

24     the field, there were any mines to be cleared.

25        Q.   Did you eventually receive the missing equipment?

Page 23271

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   And do you remember whether General Cermak filed a report against

 3     Mr. Madar [phoen] as he announced in his letter?

 4        A.   I don't remember that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  I'd like to tender this document, Mr. President.

 7             MR. KAY:  No objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall become

10     Exhibit P2651.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P2651 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Teskeredzic, you filed a number of reports to

15     Mr. Cermak.  In a sense, that you reported about the work you did; is

16     that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we have seen examples this morning so we don't need to go

19     into that any further.

20             And we also saw this morning in D1735 that General Cermak

21     proposed you and other members of your team to become a presidential

22     award.  You told us that you did not get the award.  Do you have any

23     knowledge why you didn't get the award?

24        A.   I don't know.  I didn't really think about it.

25        Q.   Now, you said in your witness statement that you weren't

Page 23272

 1     subordinated to Mr. Cermak.  Is that still your position?

 2        A.   Yes.  I cooperated with him, I assisted him as a volunteer in

 3     attending to the conditions prevailing there, in order to enable the

 4     return of civilians as soon as possible.  I asked him to help me arrange

 5     other individuals to arrive there so that we could deal with the matters

 6     that were urgent at the time, like, for instance, clearing up someone's

 7     driveway to their home, and such-like.

 8        Q.   Now, you have testified, and we have seen these documents,

 9     including your statement, you were mobilized at the request of

10     General Cermak; you were mobilized into his unit, the garrison command;

11     you reported to him about your work; he provided equipment and even

12     personnel to you; team members received instructions by him or his

13     deputy.  All of this suggests that you were, indeed, part of the garrison

14     command and subordinated to Mr. Cermak.

15             How do you respond to that?

16        A.   Well, you see, a subordinate.  His task was to normalise life,

17     and we helped in him one aspect of this work.  Of course, I had to tell

18     him what it was that I was doing.  It would have been absurd for me to

19     work there as a volunteer with others without him being aware of what it

20     is that we were doing.  He, with his team, helped me and my associates

21     come together, and these were really people who were qualified for the

22     job.  Some of them came directly from the units where they were

23     mobilized, others came back from retirement, others from their workplace

24     in the institute or the national park.  We came together, and it was not

25     the sort of strict working drill or discipline or anything of the sort.

Page 23273

 1     It was cooperation.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your witness statement you say that you don't

 3     know what Mr. Cermak's duties were; is that correct?

 4        A.   Well, what the duties were.  His task was to make the civilian

 5     infrastructure operational, to have the electricity and water supply

 6     running, to have the town cleared of mines, et cetera.  I didn't have a

 7     feeling that he was there to do anything else.  He did receive

 8     delegations that came to see him.

 9        Q.   But you don't really know what his formal authorities were over

10     other units or -- or other people.  That's not something you could

11     testify about.

12        A.   As far as I know, he didn't have any authorities over other

13     units, as far as I was able to see from my stay there.  It was more of a

14     cooperation that he had with Pero Pasic, with the civilian population, he

15     had contacted with UNPROFOR.  That's something I was able to see as well.

16     And that I believe that that was the direction in which his tasks tended

17     to go.  He did not have command over the police or the units that passed

18     through there.

19        Q.   Let's go to the fish farm, D1033.

20             You have seen the document this morning, and I'm interested in a

21     passage where you suggest, after visiting the farm, you suggest to

22     General Cermak to engage military police for a 24-hour watch, to do,

23     among other issues, to protect the fish.

24        A.   Yes.  My view was that we had to take care of that, but in -- as

25     far as I saw it, it was the military police and not Cermak who were

Page 23274

 1     suppose to guard and secure an area that still had a military presence.

 2        Q.   Yes.  The reference I'm interested in is on page 2 in both

 3     versions, English and B/C/S, just after the listing of these 15 pools.

 4             In paragraph 1, you see reference to the military police.

 5             Now, did the military police show up?  Did they protect the fish,

 6     as you had suggested?

 7        A.   No.  It wasn't the military police; it was Mr. Zdenko Roman who

 8     rotated with Margus and Zvonko Modrusan.  They took turns and stayed

 9     there.

10        Q.   So Mr. Cermak, he denied your proposal to have military police

11     organised for this purpose?

12        A.   Or he was unable to accommodate my request.  I didn't think about

13     it.  Although there wasn't that much danger there while -- when we first

14     came and cleared the area, what was left to us only was to maintain the

15     condition which the fish farm was, and the people were aware of it.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.  Let's go to a last issue; that's the

17     damage done to -- to Knin.

18             Now, you have a number of specialisations, professional ones.

19     You're an expert of oceanology; you are a scientist who studies fish

20     breeding; you are an ichthyologist - hopefully I pronounced that right.

21     These are all sciences related to marine sciences, marine biology.  Is

22     that correct?

23        A.   It has to do with the technology and biology of fish breeding and

24     the health of aquatic organisms.

25        Q.   But you are certainly not an expert in assessing damage done by

Page 23275

 1     artillery or mortar shells; is that correct?

 2        A.   I'm not an expert, but I can see what the damage is.

 3        Q.   Now, in page 6 of your witness statement, you say that six houses

 4     were hit by shells.  At least that's what you observed.

 5        A.   Yes, I toured the area.

 6             MR. KAY:  Paragraph 6.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, it's paragraph 6.

 8             MR. KAY:  Paragraph 6, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 6, yes, that's clear.

10             MR. WAESPI:

11        Q.   Yes, please continue.

12        A.   We don't have it yet.  I can't see paragraph 6.

13        Q.   Yeah, the exhibit is D1732.  And I can quote it:

14             "Knin was practically intact.  According to my observation, six

15     houses had been hit by shells."

16        A.   Can it be enlarged.  I can't read it.

17             There ought to be a second part as well.

18        Q.   Yes, once you have digested the first three lines, we will move

19     on to the next page in B/C/S.

20        A.   Yes, and what is your question?

21        Q.   You stand by that, that you only observed six houses damaged by

22     -- or hit by shells when you toured Knin.

23        A.   Yes.  This is an approximation.  There may have been another one.

24     But I can still clearly describe where each of these houses was.

25        Q.   Now, were you aware that a provisional UN assessment has listed

Page 23276

 1     44 buildings as damaged by shelling?  This is P64.

 2        A.   That is possible.  I wasn't aware of it.  What I found and what

 3     is written here is the result of my observation of the terrain.

 4        Q.   So you accept that others might come to different observations.

 5        A.   They might have.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

 9             Mr. Kay.

10             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I have no re-examination.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No re-examination.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have a few questions for you, Mr. Teskeredzic.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You composed a team or a committee, in which Mr. Vuk

16     was included.  We've heard about Mr. Vuk.

17             Mr. Gojevic -- when I say you, I meant to say that Mr. Cermak did

18     so.  You were a member of that team.

19             Mr. Gojevic, do you know what his position was?  It was Mr. Vuk

20     who was supposed to report, apart from you, Mr. Gojevic and Mr. Vrkic

21     were members.  Do you remember that?

22             We have seen this on the screen.  I think it is -- is it D763 or

23     is it D1020.  Could the parties assist me.

24             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, it's D763.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could we have D763 on the screen.

Page 23277

 1             MR. WAESPI:  And I believe the witness gave, in paragraph 7, of

 2     his witness statement an answer to your question, the last sentence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think he did yet, but ...

 4             Yes, you see this document on the screen?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Colonel Marin Frkic, do you remember to whom

 7     he was subordinated?

 8        A.   I believe -- well, I can't really remember.  I know that

 9     Mr. Gojevic was a deputy to Mr. Cermak.  And for the other one, for

10     Mr. Frkic, I can't really remember.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But he was a colonel.  But do you remember in what

12     unit he was or ...

13        A.   No, I can't remember.  It's been a long time ago.  I couldn't

14     really even remember his name if it wasn't written here.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Gojevic, you remember that he was the

16     deputy of Mr. Cermak.  Do you have any recollection as to whether

17     Mr. Frkic was also part of the garrison command, or was he an outsider?

18        A.   Mr. Frkic?  No, I can't remember that.

19             MR. KAY:  May I help, Your Honour.  D1023.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1023.

21             MR. KAY:  Dated 9th of August.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay, for that.

23             You told us that you would receive requests for performing your

24     tasks.  We've also seen that in your report, that you give a brief survey

25     of the performance of your task in de-mining, including military

Page 23278

 1     facilities.

 2             Do you remember from whom you got the requests to inspect those

 3     military facilities?

 4        A.   We received such requests from different military personnel that

 5     would come there to take over the military depots so they would ask us to

 6     come if there were no de-miners at the Split command post, then they

 7     would ask us, or sometimes he would join them because they needed more

 8     persons for the particular tasks.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can you remember whether you reported to those

10     who made these requests to you, if not the garrison command?

11        A.   No, we did not report to them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So you got a request from someone; for example, to

13     inspect military apartments.  Let me take you to this example.

14             Do you remember from whom you got that request?

15        A.   I really do not remember the details.  People wanted to have

16     their accommodation.  They wanted to make sure that they will be safe.

17     Different people would come and ask for our assistance, in order to make

18     sure that there was nothing there that could inflict them any harm.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you report on your work inspecting

20     military apartments.  Military apartments occupied by whom?

21        A.   I really don't know who lived there.  We went out when called,

22     when this was arranged with the mine clearers from the Split area.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But you said people wanted their houses to be

24     inspected.  Now, these military apartments, were they used by the troops

25     or the military personnel that had left?

Page 23279

 1        A.   I don't know that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But you're reporting on having inspected quite a

 3     number of military apartments.  Is it your testimony that you did not

 4     know whether these apartments were used by the Croatian military or by

 5     the ARSK military?

 6        A.   Croatian military could not have used them, because they only

 7     arrived at that time.  Previously they were used by the army of Republika

 8     Srpska Krajina.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So may I then take it that you did not receive a

10     request to inspect them by those who had lived in those apartments?

11        A.   When people came, they came back.  In the meantime, between 1991

12     and 1995, many military apartments who were previously used by officers

13     of the JNA who were Croats, they left, and after this period of time,

14     they came back.  Now, obviously in the meantime, somebody else lived in

15     that apartment, probably also members of the military, but they were not

16     Croats.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Which does not yet answer my question.  My question

18     is:  Whether you received these requests from those who lived in those

19     apartments or not.  And you're telling us that people returned, and

20     someone else had lived in apartments that were owned by them or were

21     occupied by them previously.

22             Now, do you remember who asked you, requested you, instructed you

23     - whatever word you would use - to inspect those apartments?

24        A.   We received the requests from people who wanted to move in, so

25     people who came back at the time.  You probably know that at the time

Page 23280

 1     many people were forced out of Banja Luka, for example.  They came to

 2     Knin, and they wanted to move into these apartments that used to be

 3     military apartments.  So even those people from Banja Luka asked us to do

 4     that, because they wanted to move in.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of any request or order to inspect

 6     such apartments that came not from individuals but from persons with a

 7     certain authority?

 8        A.   No, I'm not aware of any such order.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have D1048, I think it is, on the screen.

10             Have you had an opportunity to read it?

11        A.   No, I don't think so.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please take your time.

13        A.   Yes, I have read it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, this is, apparently -- now, let me ask

15     you, have you seen such orders for inspecting or pyrotechnically

16     inspecting apartments which were owned by the Ministry of Defence of the

17     Republic of Croatia?

18        A.   No, I did not.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you are reporting that you did pyrotechnical

20     inspection of apartments.  Could you explain to us what the -- if at all,

21     whether there's any relation between the work you did and the work which,

22     apparently, you see ordered by Mr. Cermak?

23        A.   Yes.  This task was issued to the 14th Engineering.  They asked

24     us to go to Vitorog.  He came by; he said, Are there any people who are

25     free at the moment?  Yes, there are, so let us go there to inspect that

Page 23281

 1     [realtime transcript read in error "there"].

 2             There were also people who cleared the apartments.  There were

 3     quite a lot of problems there, because the electricity supply in Knin was

 4     cut off.  There were chambers full of meat which went rotten, and there

 5     were quite a lot of problems in connection to that, cleaning of such cold

 6     chambers.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I asked you what the relation was between your

 8     work and this work.  And then you said; they asked us to go to Vitorog.

 9     He came by and said, Are there any people free at the moment.  Yes, there

10     are, so let us go there to inspect there.

11             Now, who came by?

12        A.   Mr. Jaricevic or another gentleman who was also there.  There

13     were a couple of them who would come by and say, We need some help and

14     also people came by who wanted to move in such apartments.  So the

15     requests came from different sides.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But now, were you involved in the implementation of

17     this order in any way?

18        A.   Yes, indirectly because they would come by and ask us to carry

19     out certain inspections.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So when I earlier asked you whether

21     apartments, by whom you were requested that, you said it was just

22     individuals who asked you.  But apparently here it is not just a request

23     from individuals but you were involved in the performance of inspection

24     tasks in apartments which were ordered by authorities.

25        A.   Well, the authorities there were made of military units, and they

Page 23282

 1     sort of requested our assistance.  We were not obliged to do that, but

 2     since there were people who were able to carry out such inspections, we

 3     did assist them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you ever receive a request from

 5     Mr. Cermak which you said, No, I'm not going to perform the task you're

 6     asking me to perform?

 7        A.   No, I never received such a request.  He knew what our

 8     compatibilities were, what it was that we were able to do.  He did not

 9     issue written orders to us because there was no need for that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that was not what I asked.  Did you ever, when

11     Mr. Cermak requested something, I was not talking about orders, did you

12     ever say, No, we can't do it, or we do not want to do it?

13        A.   I don't believe there were any such situations.  He never

14     requested anything that we were not able to do.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you finally met all the requests he addressed to

16     you.  Is that ...

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In your statement, in paragraph 6 you say something

19     about the destruction in the town of Drnis and Oklaj village.  And I read

20     the relevant portion.

21             After the part of the statement which deals with the six

22     buildings that had been hit by shells in the town of Knin you said:  "For

23     the sake of comparison, I went to the neighbouring town of Drnis and

24     Oklaj village where I established that between 1991 and 1995 all the

25     houses had been destroyed by the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

Page 23283

 1             I would like to know exactly what you meant there.  Did you mean

 2     to say that all the houses were destroyed; or all the houses you saw

 3     being destroyed were destroyed by the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

 4             Could you elaborate on that sentence.

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6             Drnis and Oklaj are Croatian settlements and in 1991, when they

 7     were occupied by the enemy forces everything was destroyed and burned

 8     down.

 9             When I came I could see that this indeed happened back then in

10     1991 because over the three or four years, the vegetation started to grow

11     out of these destroyed buildings.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So no house was left intact in Drnis.  Is that ...

13        A.   Most of the houses.  The impression was, as if everything was

14     destroyed.  Possibly here and there, there was a house that was intact,

15     but most of the houses were destroyed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  In paragraph 18 of your statement, you say something

17     about a lady who had told you that:  "... the leaving of the area and

18     going to Serbia had been planned and organised."

19             Did she give you any further details?

20        A.   She did not only say this to me personally.  I went there with a

21     team from my institute, some four or five years ago.  We did some

22     research at the river Una near Donji Lapac, and personally I was

23     interested in this.  She came back.  She was president of the fishing

24     association there.  And at the same time she worked at the Red Cross in

25     Donji Lapac.  So I asked her, I believe her name was Zorica, and I asked

Page 23284

 1     what happened at the time, and I described in detail what she told me.

 2     As I said she didn't address only me personally, but there were four or

 3     five of us from my team from the institute.

 4             So she said that a group of people came and shouted, the Ustashas

 5     are coming, they're going to slaughter everybody, so they moved towards

 6     Banja Luka.  In Banja Luka there were trucks waiting for them, and they

 7     transported them to Belgrade.

 8             In Belgrade, there were already transportation means to move

 9     them --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated] Yes.  You now apparently

11     arrive at the point that I'm interested in.  Please continue.

12        A.   And when they arrived, they wanted to move them to Kosovo.  But

13     this is where they reacted and objected.  This is what she told me.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the conclusion that it was planned and

15     organised therefore, but please correct me when I'm wrong, that

16     conclusion was drawn on the basis of a group of people coming and

17     shouting, The Ustashas are coming, they're going to slaughter everybody.

18     And then having moved to Banja Luka, trucks were waiting for them and to

19     transport them to Belgrade.

20             Is there any other fact she told you which supports the

21     conclusion that it was all planned and organised?

22        A.   Well, these were sufficient reasons on which I could base my

23     conclusion that everything was planned and organised.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You also said that she told you that

25     99 per cent of the people had left that area before the Croats returned

Page 23285

 1     to the territory of the former Krajina.

 2             Did she give you any further details as to when they left or

 3     whether they returned ever after?

 4        A.   She did not mention any details, but people did come back.  I

 5     spoke to them.  They were around.  She was one of those who came back.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And she is Serb; is that what I --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.

 9             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need?

10             Mr. Kay, thank you very much for D1023 which places Mr. Frkic

11     clearly in the garrison command.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes, thank you.

13                                Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

14        Q.   One matter arising from what His Honour asked you, and it

15     concerns the request that General Cermak made to you, and you said that

16     he never asked you anything that was unreasonable and you had no occasion

17     to -- not to follow any request.

18             Looking at it from other way, if had you refused any request by

19     Mr. Cermak, could he have disciplined you.

20        A.   Well, in theory, yes.  But there was simply no need for that.  I

21     was a volunteer, so my status was much more liberal, so to say, than it

22     would have been if I was mobilized or part of the military establishment.

23     But I was a scientist, so they treated me in a different way, not so

24     strictly.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23286

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no further questions for you,

 2     Mr. Teskeredzic.  Therefore, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

 3     thank you very much for coming this long way to The Hague and for having

 4     answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

 5     Bench, and I would wish you -- I would like to wish you a safe return

 6     home again.

 7             Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Teskeredzic out of the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to move into private session for a short

10     while.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23287











11  Page 23287 redacted. Private session.















Page 23288

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 7             For the witness to appear tomorrow, what we have heard is an

 8     estimate from the Defence as to the time needed for examination-in-chief

 9     and we have TBDs which stands for to be determined for the other parties.

10     Since we may have a little scheduling problem tomorrow, which means that

11     we'd have to stop a little bit earlier than usual, not later than 1.30

12     p.m., could I inquire with the parties whether there's any chance that we

13     could conclude the testimony of that witness in this lesser time

14     tomorrow?

15             Mr. Kay, your assessment was.

16             MR. KAY:  My assessment was half a session and my assessment from

17     what I've been seeing of cross-examination on the issues, that probably

18     we would be able to complete him in -- in time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask the other Defence teams whether

20     they would support this estimate and this assessment given by Mr. Kay in

21     view of the TBDs still being there.

22             Mr. Misetic.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President, I don't anticipate having more

24     than 20 minutes, if that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

Page 23289

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  By all means, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Hedaraly.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Mr President, we would have a little over one

 5     session, so I am confident that we will be able to be finished by 1.30

 6     tomorrow.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then the parties are urged to see whether we

 8     can conclude tomorrow's testimony by 1.30.  Any other procedural matters

 9     to be raised at this moment?

10             Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr, President, just with respect to the

12     exhibits that we were discussing in private session, I offered the 65 ter

13     number just for clerical purposes.  Do we wish do get a number assigned

14     now or --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I failed to ask the Registrar to assign exhibit

16     numbers.  Or it would then be -- it's all be together now.  It would be

17     one exhibit number, that is, all of the evidence which from, what I

18     understand, is a transcript of the Initial Appearance of Mr. Babic.  It

19     is part of Mr. Babic's plea agreement.  And it's transcript of Babic

20     testimony in the Milosevic case, both the portions tendered by the

21     Defence and by the Prosecution, and the transcript of the testimony of

22     Mr. Babic in the Martic case, and finally the transcript of the testimony

23     of Mr. Babic in the Krajisnik case.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, that is correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, all together under 1D2977.

Page 23290

 1             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to 1D2977,

 3     and it should be D number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

 5     Exhibit D1736.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D1736 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Any other procedural matter?

 8             If not, then we'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume

 9     tomorrow, Tuesday, the 27th of October, 2009, 9.00, Courtroom I.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.05 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

12                           October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.