Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23377

 1                           Wednesday, 28 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number

 9     IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             The Chamber was informed that one of the parties would like to

13     raise a matter.

14             Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             It's related to -- well, it will be in private session and it is

17     related to the upcoming witness.  I understood, though, that there are

18     also something else that the Chamber wished to deal with procedurally

19     before we start.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I want to deal with a matter procedurally as well.

21     And that's -- you may not be surprised, scheduling for the weeks to come.

22             We could deal with that first, but I do not flow what -- if your

23     matter is related to the next witness, then --

24             MR. MISETIC:  It is related somewhat to the next witness, so ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first deal with the scheduling.

Page 23378

 1             The Chamber has received, Mr. Kay, the schedule for witnesses,

 2     which goes until next week, Friday.  Now, how realistic is our

 3     expectation that we would finish by next Friday?  Has there been

 4     communication with the other parties so as to know more or less how much

 5     time cross-examination would take so as to know whether you could, for

 6     example, start with your second expert witness at the time you have on

 7     your mind or ...

 8             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, we're just reviewing the witness list for

 9     next week, because there may be one witness who issues have been dealt

10     with through other witnesses.  And what I've done as we've gone through

11     this case is reviewed our listed witnesses to see whether -- what

12     challenges there have been, whether issues have been covered, and then

13     taken them off the list if there is no need to call people.  I have taken

14     those decisions and I'm reviewing one for next week.

15             That schedule has been put together only from the available

16     information that I've had, as well as a bit of guess-work.  My feeling is

17     that the last witness will be into the next week.  I don't --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That means a spillover in the second week of

19     November.

20             MR. KAY:  Yes.  And just to assist the Court as well, the Court

21     will be reminded we have 92 bis evidence as well to produce in the

22     proceedings as well as the fact that the Rule 68 matter as between the

23     OTP and the Defence is still ongoing and not concluded yet.  That is --

24     that is not problematic because it will be the admitted facts or

25     adjudicated facts that are relied upon, depending upon the sources of

Page 23379

 1     evidence.  But it's something that eventually will have to come before

 2     the Court and be entered on to the record, as well as we'll need a bit of

 3     preparation time.

 4             The Prosecution and Cermak Defence are in constant communication

 5     about this every day as to the best way to handle matters, and I think

 6     it's appreciated from the Prosecution side that there is actually more

 7     material there that needs to be worked upon and dealt with.  We took in

 8     mind very much Your Honours' comments about the size of the filing that

 9     we made, but we felt we had to make that filing to get something on the

10     table so that at least we were covered that far, and the Court could see

11     our intentions into relation to the evidence to be produced.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So we should prepare a Scenario A and Scenario B,

13     the one in which there is some spillover in the second week of November,

14     whereas in the other one we would conclude next week.

15             The reason I'm asking or I'm inquiring is, of course, because

16     usually if there is any delay it should be resolved to some extent by the

17     party who is calling the witness and who is presenting its case at that

18     time.  But since we are at the end of the Cermak case means the beginning

19     of the Markac case and therefore -- have you -- there are a few matters

20     of great importance, first to receive, as soon as possible, realistic

21     time estimates for cross-examination of next week's witnesses so that we

22     can see whether -- how realistic it is to expect that you would be able

23     to conclude your case next week.  Then, of course, the other matter still

24     outstanding to see whether that all fits within that one week, and, if

25     not, how many days it would, in the week after that.  And then, of

Page 23380

 1     course, the next question would be whether we would ask the

 2     Markac Defence whether they could already start on the Thursday or

 3     Friday, or -- or whether they would then prefer to start the week after

 4     that.  That would be the third week of November.

 5             And then, of course, because I'm not only thinking about the few

 6     weeks to come but also about third week of November, what would that mean

 7     for the scheduling of the Markac Defence on the long-term, that is, the

 8     recess period from mid-December until early January.

 9             These are matters I -- we will have to consider.  And we are

10     asking the co-operation of the parties to give us, as soon as possible,

11     insights on what we could expect to start with for the first two weeks,

12     and then, and I'm looking at you, Mr. Mikulicic, also then to know as

13     soon as possible what we could expect as far as the case presentation for

14     Mr. Markac is concerned.

15             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour, as we're going through matters, it

16     seems to me the spillover into the second week of November, I think, is

17     predictable now.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. KAY:  We've --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't exclude yet for the possibility that we

21     could still finish next week, but I think I understood your message quite

22     well.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think you understood my message quite well as

25     well.  When I said what we need are two scenarios.

Page 23381

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The one -- the optimistic one, and the other one --

 3     you would say the realistic one, I would say the pessimistic one.

 4             MR. KAY:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 7             In relation to the cross-examination estimates, from our side,

 8     the two shorter factual witnesses, Monday, Tuesday, it's one session

 9     each.  And two experts to follow, it's four to six sessions each.  And,

10     of course, I would appreciate if the Cermak Defence would tell us which

11     witnesses or which witness they will drop.  I don't know need to repeat

12     that.  There is an lot of preparation going on.  For instance, for

13     Mr. Mesic, who has been dropped within a week before he was to call.

14     That with a huge witness to prepare.

15             So I'd like to know as soon as I can which witnesses is going to

16     be dropped.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, your observations further support the

18     expectation by Mr. Kay because four to six sessions each, average of

19     five, makes -- two times five is ten, which is already more than three

20     full days.  Whereas, both for chief and cross, only three days have been

21     scheduled.  And I'm not -- have not considered yet any cross-examination

22     by the -- by the other Defence teams.

23             So, therefore, I should perhaps forget about the word pessimistic

24     and talk into terms of realistic.

25             That is clear.

Page 23382

 1             Could the Chamber receive -- not necessarily now but also as soon

 2     as possible the estimates for cross-examination of both the witnesses of

 3     fact and the expert witnesses for next week?

 4             MR. KAY:  If they could be sent to us, Your Honour, so that we

 5     can put them in our table that we then send to the Trial Chamber.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. KAY:  Which gives us a helpful indication.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not have expected to leave you out of the

 9     list of addressees, Mr. Kay.

10             That was the scheduling issue I wanted to raise.

11             Then we turn into private session.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 23383











11  Pages 23383-23384 redacted. Private session.















Page 23385

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             Mr. Kay, are you ready to call your next witness?

22             MR. KAY:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  Mr. Cetina, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Madam Usher.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 23386

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Cetina.  Before you give

 2     evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a

 3     solemn declaration, of which the text is now being handed out to you by

 4     Madam Usher.

 5             May I invite you to take that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Cetina.

 9             Mr. Cetina, you will first be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is

10     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  IVICA CETINA

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Cetina.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   Mr. Cetina, I'd like you to look at the screen on your right and

19     to look at document that comes onto the screen.

20             MR. KAY:  Can we have 2D00726.

21        Q.   This is a statement that you gave to the Defence, and I would

22     like you to identify it.

23             Can you see there a copy of a witness statement that you gave to

24     the Defence.

25             MR. KAY:  And if the Court would kindly move it up a little bit

Page 23387

 1     further.

 2        Q.   Do you identify your signature on that first page?

 3        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 4        Q.   And is that a -- a first page of a statement that you gave to the

 5     Defence?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. KAY:  If we could look at the end of that statement.

 8        Q.   And you can see a date on the statement.  And you can see a

 9     signature.  Do you identify that that is the date of a statement?  If you

10     can give the date to the Court, because I can't read it from here.

11        A.   Yes.  The 26th of August, 2009.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And is that your signature at the end of the

13     statement?

14        A.   Yes, it is.

15        Q.   And do you confirm that that is a statement that you made to the

16     Defence; and when you signed that statement, did you read through it to

17     check that the information was true and correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I read it, and I confirm the contents.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also sign a supplementary information sheet?

20             MR. KAY:  If we could have 2D00776.

21        Q.   And, again, another document will come on the screen, Mr. Cetina,

22     which I'd like you to identify.

23             Do you see there a document dated the 24th of October, 2009?  And

24     that's the first page of the statement.

25             MR. KAY:  Can you turn now to the second page of the statement,

Page 23388

 1     please.

 2             And the third page.

 3        Q.   Do you identify there your signature with the date of the 26th of

 4     October, 2009?

 5        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 6        Q.   Did you read through what was written in this supplemental

 7     information sheet before you signed that document?

 8        A.   Yes, I read it.

 9        Q.   And is the information contained within this supplemental

10     information sheet, to the best of your knowledge and belief, true and

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes, they are true.

13        Q.   This supplemental information sheet makes certain clarifications

14     and a correction to a statement that you gave to the

15     Office of the Prosecution; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Let's look at that statement now.

18             MR. KAY:  And could we have on the screen, please, 2D00725.

19        Q.   And I'm going to ask you some more questions about this document,

20     Mr. Cetina.

21             That is a copy of your statement to the

22     Office of the Prosecution.  Do you confirm that you gave a statement to

23     the Office of the Prosecution?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   We notice that on the dates of interview it's recorded that you

Page 23389

 1     were interviewed on the 10th and 11th of September, 2001.  Are you able

 2     to confirm those facts?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And we also see that on the 25 and 26th of February, 2002, you

 5     were also interviewed on those dates.  Are you able to confirm those

 6     facts?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, we see on the statement various signatures on the first

 9     page.  Is your signature on that page?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you confirm that you signed this document?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. KAY:  If we could just now go to the end of that statement,

14     to page -- I think it's 16.

15        Q.   We see there various signatures.  Do you identify your signature

16     on that page, on the 26th of February, 2002?

17        A.   I can't see it here.  The document should be moved either to the

18     left or to the right, because I can't see my signature here.

19        Q.   There are no other signatures on -- on that page.  But your

20     signature's not on there.

21             MR. KAY:

22        Q.   Can we go to the previous page, one page back?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, here I can see my signature.

24        Q.   Yes.  And if could you just identify which one it is.  Is it the

25     one next to where it says -- above the date?

Page 23390

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  And if we can just have that as a single page shot now

 4     so that we can see it.

 5        Q.   I want to ask you some questions now about this OTP interview.

 6             First of all, do you speak English?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   When you were interviewed on the four dates by the

 9     Office of the Prosecution, what language did you speak in?

10        A.   Croatian.

11        Q.   And the investigators of the Office of the Prosecution, what

12     language did they speak in?

13        A.   English.

14        Q.   And was there a translator to interpret the English into Croatian

15     and the Croatian into English?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The statement that you signed, was it a statement in your own

18     language, Croatian, or was it a statement in the English language?

19        A.   I signed it in Croatian.

20        Q.   And the statement that you signed, did you read it yourself in

21     Croatian, or did anyone read it to you before you signed it?  What was

22     the procedure:  Did you read it for yourself or was it read to you?

23        A.   I read it myself.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             Now, you've made certain clarifications and a correction to that

Page 23391

 1     statement.  Is the information otherwise in that statement to the

 2     Office of the Prosecution information that is, to the best of your

 3     knowledge and belief, true and correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If I was to ask you in court today the same questions that caused

 6     the answers that were put into the statements, subject to the

 7     corrections, would you give the same answers today as the answers that

 8     you gave on previous occasions?

 9        A.   Yes, save for the clarifications I made and to which I affixed my

10     signature.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  And those have been noted.

12             MR. KAY:  In those circumstances, Your Honour, may I make those

13     three document, starting, first of all, with 2D00726 an exhibit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Should they be exhibited under one number or

15     preferably under three numbers?

16             Any preference?

17             MR. KAY:  I think we've been giving separate numbers as we've

18     been dealing with matters, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Registrar, could you -- so it would first be the statement

21     given do the Defence as the first one; the second one the supplemental

22     statement given to the Defence; and third one the statement to the OTP.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter document 2D00726 will

24     be assigned Exhibit D1743.  65 ter number 2D00776 will be assigned

25     Exhibit D1744.  65 ter number 2D00725 will be assigned Exhibit D1745.

Page 23392

 1             Thank you.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no objections, D1743, D1744, D1745

 4     are admitted into evidence.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

 6             MR. KAY:  There is a couple of matters that needed to be

 7     identified within the statement to point out exhibit references.

 8             Your Honour, first of all, in page 10 of the statement given to

 9     the Office of the Prosecution, there is an document referred to as

10     0034-1846 to 60, that is D179, an exhibit under seal.

11             I hope that assists Your Honour in cross-referencing these

12     matters.

13             Then, again, at page 10 of the Prosecution statement, there is a

14     document referred to as 0035-7028 to 29.  That is Exhibit D808.

15             Also on page 10, there is an document, 0035-6996 to 7.  That is

16     Exhibit P271.

17             And now moving to another page, page 8, the third paragraph,

18     0308-4327 to 28, that is 65 ter number 2806, and I ask that that be made

19     an exhibit.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. KAY:  I'm told it is already come through as an exhibit as

22     P2649.  That's happened in the interim, Your Honour.

23             The next reference is at the OTP witness statement, page 12,

24     paragraph 1, is a document 0035-6998 to 7000.  That is 2D00727 on the

25     Defence 65 ter list.  I ask that that be made an exhibit.

Page 23393

 1             There was an application to add this to our 65 ter list.  There

 2     was no objection by the Prosecution on the 22nd of September.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document becomes

 7     Exhibit D1746.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             Mr. Kay, if I may interrupt you, at page 8, the third paragraph,

10     the number you read appears on the record a bit different from what I see

11     in the text, but since it is the only number there and since it is

12     already P2649, I think there's no need to read that number again with all

13     the risks of confusion and errors.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. KAY:  I'm thankful, Your Honour.

16             The next matter is on paragraph 2 of page 12.  There's a document

17     referred to as 0035-7076 to 7.  That is document 2D00728 on the Defence

18     65 ter list.  There's an application to add that to the 65 ter list with

19     no objection from the Prosecution on the 22nd of September.

20             Your Honour, may this be made an exhibit.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit D1747.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             Please proceed.

Page 23394

 1             MR. KAY:  And the last matter, in relation to this, Your Honour,

 2     is a document in paragraph 3 of page 12, with the number 0035-7085 to 86.

 3     That's on the Prosecution 65 ter list as 974.  There's an application to

 4     make that an exhibit.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit D1748.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. KAY:  I'm much obliged, Your Honour.

10             Your Honour, if I may now just give a brief summary of

11     Mr. Cetina's evidence before I ask him some further questions.

12             Mr. Cetina was the chief of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration,

13     appointed on the 1st of January, 1995, and the chief during

14     Operation Storm and until the year of 1995 to the end of the year.

15             He knew about Operation Storm about two days before it took

16     place, and he started preparations in relation to the military operation.

17     He was in Zadar when it commenced on the 4th of August, 1995.

18             On the second day of the operation, the 5th of August, 1995, the

19     Ministry of Interior appointed several people to the position of police

20     station commanders, and those appointments were made within the newly

21     created district of Kotar-Knin Police Administration.  The chief

22     commander of that police administration was a man called Cedo Romanic,

23     and thereafter various police officers were appointed to the police

24     stations which made up the area of the Kotar-Knin Police Administration.

25     These police administrations were also assisted by coordinators appointed

Page 23395

 1     by the Ministry of Interior from Zagreb whose role and responsibility it

 2     was was to provide support to the police administrations in taking on

 3     these extra tasks caused by the conflict and the occupation of territory

 4     that had previously been occupied by the Government of the

 5     Republika Srpska Krajina.

 6             During his work for Zadar-Knin Police Administration, Mr. Cetina

 7     had many meetings with the military police.  He had meetings with the

 8     UNCIVPOL and other agencies of the UN, and on a few occasions, he met

 9     General Cermak to discuss problems within the area.  And his evidence is

10     that General Cermak condemned crimes that was happening and wanted to

11     ensure that these problems were stopped.

12             Your Honour, that is a brief summary of the evidence of

13     Mr. Cetina, but I anticipate that further details will become clear

14     during the course of his evidence, so I have not taken too long on this

15     summary.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, may I ask you, you have told us what the

17     exhibit numbers were of documents shown to the witness on pages 8, 10,

18     three times 12, but on page 9, I find a document, a UN CIVPOL report,

19     where it is unclear to me whether that's already an exhibit or whether

20     you want to tender it into evidence as you did with some of the other

21     documents.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that is already an exhibit and my

23     apologies for missing it out.  It's Exhibit P270.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And that was 0035-6987 up to and

25     including last two digits 88 being P270.  Thank you.

Page 23396

 1             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

 2        Q.   Mr. Cetina, having concluded those formalities, I will now ask

 3     you some questions.

 4             The first matter I want to deal with concerns the situation

 5     before Operation Oluja.  At that time, as of the 1st of January, 1995,

 6     you were the chief of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration.  That's

 7     right, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Operation Oluja happened on the 4th of August, 1995, and was

10     successfully concluded on the 5th of August, 1995, and we know from your

11     evidence that the Kotar-Knin Police Administration was formed on the

12     5th of August, with Cedo Romanic as its chief; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It's concerning the preparations for the Kotar-Knin Police

15     Administration that I now want to question you about.

16             Was the territory of the Kotar-Knin Police Administration the

17     territory that was previously occupied by the RSK?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was any part of your territory, of the Zadar-Knin

20     Police Administration, also occupied by the RSK?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So from the 5th of August, you, for the first time, had

23     jurisdiction over your entire area of responsibility; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In relation to your police administration territorial area, did

Page 23397

 1     you have to open any new police stations that were subject to the

 2     Zadar-Knin Police Administration?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And which police stations were they?

 5        A.   They were police stations in Korenica, Obrovac, Donji Lapac,

 6     Benkovac, Knin, Gracac.

 7        Q.   Cedo Romanic was appointed the chief of the Kotar-Knin Police

 8     Administration on the 5th of August, 1995.  Had there been any

 9     preparations made prior to that date for someone to be appointed to the

10     position of chief of that police administration?

11        A.   He was appointed by the ministry at its head office.

12        Q.   Had any preparations been made before that date - so in June or

13     July or earlier months - to prepare him or anyone for that task?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   The new police stations that were also opened had police

16     commanders in charge of them.  Had any of them been prepared prior to the

17     liberation of the territory for taking on these positions in advance?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   In relation to equipment for the police buildings at the police

20     stations, as well as in the Kotar-Knin Police Administration, had there

21     been any advance preparation or storage of equipment, such as computers,

22     office machinery, police equipment?  Anything like that?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Had any of the police officers been identified in advance as to

25     who would be taking on positions within the police stations eventually?

Page 23398

 1     Any of those police officers who worked there eventually, had any of them

 2     been prepared or identified in advance with the work that they would

 3     eventually be doing?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   In relation to particular areas of police work, such as criminal

 6     police investigation, technical equipment, had any of those police

 7     stations or the Kotar-Knin Police Administration been provided in advance

 8     with technical scientific equipment for police work?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Prior to Operation Storm, were you at a meeting chaired by

11     Mr. Moric, the assistant minister in the Ministry of Interior, on the

12     3rd of August?  So the day before Operation Storm when preparations were

13     made for what was to happen.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were those preparations in respect of the police role during the

16     actual operation itself?

17        A.   We were given general information to the effect that

18     Operation Storm would commence and that we should be prepared for it.

19     There were no specific preparations made.

20        Q.   And perhaps if -- if you could describe the sort of preparations,

21     if any, that you took.  What did you do as a result of that meeting on

22     the 3rd of August?

23        A.   I returned to Zadar where I gathered the members of my specialist

24     team.  I informed them of the imminent operation and told them that we

25     should get prepared for the return to that territory.

Page 23399

 1        Q.   Was there any planning that was done in advance for the situation

 2     of check-points or areas of patrol?

 3        A.   No.  Our primary objective was to reach the location and to get

 4     settled in the police building.

 5        Q.   Did you have any information or knowledge in advance as to what

 6     you might find when you got into the police station?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Was there any training or outlines done as to the kinds of tasks

 9     that that police station would have to do when it started functioning?

10        A.   Well, we referred to the rules of procedure that were generally

11     in place.  And the law governing the police force.

12        Q.   Now, in relation to coordinators who were appointed by the

13     Ministry of Interior, when were they appointed to assist the police

14     administrations?

15        A.   Very soon, after the beginning of Operation Storm.

16        Q.   What exactly was the relationship between the Zadar-Knin

17     Police Administration and the Kotar-Knin Police Administration?  Could

18     you describe how they existed together?  Was the Zadar-Knin

19     Police Administration superior to Kotar-Knin?  Could you describe for us

20     the relationship between the two.

21        A.   At the beginning, in a way, yes, it was superior.  However, the

22     Kotar-Knin Police Administration, -- or, rather, its chief, could

23     communicate with the ministry directly.

24        Q.   We know from evidence in this court that on 6th of August,

25     Minister Jarnjak came down and opened the police station officially in

Page 23400

 1     Knin.  Were you present when that happened?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And we've heard him on a TV transcript welcoming the new chief,

 4     in relation to his work.

 5             From -- from that moment, was Cedo Romanic the man in charge of

 6     the police administration in Knin?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Are you able to tell us how many police officers he would have

 9     had under his command when that police station was opened on the

10     6th of August?

11        A.   About 100, if I remember correctly.

12        Q.   And those police officers were coming into a new police

13     administration.  Are you able to tell us where they came from?

14        A.   They came from all over Croatia, since we didn't have enough men

15     to cover the area ourselves.

16        Q.   And the types of police officers that were within the

17     Kotar-Knin Police Administration from that day, where were they drawn

18     from?  What types of officers were they?  Ordinary police, or were they

19     investigators, or administration?  What type of police people were they?

20        A.   They were the so-called ordinary or uniformed police.

21        Q.   At the start, did Kotar-Knin Police Administration have a

22     criminal investigation service, its own?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   In relation to criminal investigation service, where would the

25     Kotar-Knin Police Administration have obtained that service?  Which --

Page 23401

 1     where would they have got it from?

 2        A.   The Zadar-Knin Police Administration had a crime department

 3     within it.

 4        Q.   And, again, just as part of background, how many police officers

 5     were within your police administration overall, are you able to tell us

 6     that, in 1995?

 7        A.   Well, the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, before it entered

 8     this territory, there were about 500.  And afterwards, another 500, which

 9     makes it a thousand.

10        Q.   And so we have the picture.  How many of those officers were

11     involved in the criminal investigation service?

12        A.   About 40 to 50.  I can't say for sure.

13        Q.   After Operation Storm, was that number of police in the criminal

14     investigation service increased within your police administration, or did

15     it remain the same?

16        A.   It remained the same.

17        Q.   Now, for matters such as recording crimes and detailing what

18     steps had to be taken in relation to crimes, how did the

19     Kotar-Knin Police Administration operate?  How did it deal with such

20     matters?

21        A.   They would take note of the event that had happened, provide

22     security for the site, and assess whether they needed to call in the

23     criminal police or not.

24        Q.   Now, were the numbers of the police available to the

25     Kotar-Knin Police Administration increased from that initial 100?

Page 23402

 1        A.   As far as I remember, no.

 2        Q.   Are you able to tell us, in terms of kilometres, first of all,

 3     what size of area your police administration, when it occupied all its

 4     territory, covered?  How big was it?

 5        A.   It was the largest police administration in the country at the

 6     time, in terms of territory, but I really can't tell you how many

 7     kilometre it covered.

 8        Q.   Now, after Operation Storm, is it correct that the minister of

 9     the interior sent down various senior officers to assist both you, as

10     well as Mr. Romanic, in the Kotar-Knin Police Administration?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   One, in particular, I want to ask you questions about is

13     Mr. Djurica.  Was he an assistant minister?

14        A.   He was -- well, he wasn't the assistant minister.  He was the

15     chief of the police sector of the uniformed police in the ministry.  And

16     he was the principal coordinator for the

17     Kotar-Knin Police Administration.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And did he provide assistance to both you and

19     Mr. Romanic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you have enough police to deal with the problems after

22     Operation Storm within your police administration?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did Mr. Romanic, at the Kotar-Knin Police Administration, did he

25     have enough police to deal with the problems after Operation Storm in his

Page 23403

 1     police administration?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And did you explain that to Mr. Djurica or any other senior

 4     figure from the Ministry of Interior?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And what was the reaction from your superiors?

 7        A.   Well, they mostly said that they would help and that they would

 8     increase the number of personnel, vehicles, and resources generally.

 9        Q.   Did that happen?  Were the numbers of personnel sufficiently

10     increased to help you?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   And what about equipment, such as vehicles?  Were -- were enough

13     vehicles to patrol provided to you?

14        A.   Well, they were modest.

15        Q.   Was the scale of the problem that was faced after Operation Storm

16     adequately planned for by the Ministry of Interior?

17        A.   No.  Because the situation could not have been foreseen.

18        Q.   Now, I want to ask you now some -- some other questions, and that

19     concerns your contact with the military police.

20             Prior to Operation Storm, did you have contact as the chief of

21     the police administration with the Croatian military police?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   If you could have a look at a -- a document, P493.

24             And on this right-hand screen again, Mr. Cetina, you'll see a

25     document coming up.  It's dated the 3rd of August, 1995.  It's from the

Page 23404

 1     Ministry of the Interior, and it's sent to the police administrations,

 2     including Zadar-Knin.  And it concerns co-operation with military police.

 3             And it says:

 4             "In accordance with the agreed procedure in relation to

 5     representatives of the Ministry of Defence, military police, in order to

 6     ensure coordinated and harmonised joint action in the newly liberated

 7     part of the Republic of Croatia ..."

 8             An order is issued that you were to establish contacts with the

 9     military police units within the police administration and agree on

10     harmonised action in the implementation of tasks?

11             First of all, do you recognise this document?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you take any steps in relation to this order which was from

14     Mr. Moric, the assistant minister, as of the 3rd of August, before

15     Operation Storm, did you establish contact with the military police units

16     in your area?

17        A.   It was the chiefs of the departments that were subordinated to me

18     who would have done things like that.  They were initial contacts, the

19     first steps, without any meetings having taken place.

20        Q.   So if could you just explain how you organised your

21     Zadar-Knin Police Administration.  You were the chief.  How you organised

22     then these contacts within point 1 with the military police.  Who were

23     your subordinates who contacted the military police, at what level, what

24     did they do?  If you could just explain that to us.

25        A.   It was the chief the police department, the uniformed police,

Page 23405

 1     that is, Mr. Bitanga was his name, and he contacted the military police

 2     in the area.

 3        Q.   And which military police was -- was that?  If you could identify

 4     them, what the unit was.

 5        A.   As far as I remember, it was the 71st and 72nd Battalion, and

 6     they were headquartered in Rijeka and Split, I believe.

 7        Q.   So how did you deal with this with Mr. Bitanga?  What did you --

 8     did you explain anything to him, how did you get him to implement this

 9     order from Mr. Moric?

10        A.   Well, he knew the commanders beforehand, and so they would get in

11     touch and agree on further co-operation.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. KAY:  If we can turn now to document D1283.

14        Q.   Another document, Mr. Cetina.  It's dated the

15     4th of August, 1995.  It's from the 72nd Military Police Battalion,

16     3rd Company, Zadar.  It's a report to commander.  And you can see that it

17     says that a meeting was held on the 3rd of August on the premises of the

18     72nd Military Police Battalion with a Major Ivan Juric.  And -- who

19     issued certain orders in connection with the Croatian military

20     activities.

21             And we see in the second paragraphs that contact was established,

22     including with the chiefs of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration.  And

23     this document is from a Captain Viktor Grancaric.

24             First of all, do you know Commander Grancaric, of the 3rd Company

25     in Zadar of the military police?

Page 23406

 1        A.   No.  He wasn't at that level of command.  He was at the level of

 2     command of Chief Bitanga.

 3        Q.   So the meeting that's referred to here, when it says "chiefs of

 4     the Zadar-Knin Police Administration," would that have been, then,

 5     Mr. Bitanga's level below you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if we just go to the second page of the document in the

 8     English, we'll see a list of places.  Can you see there some various

 9     place names.  And it says:  two military policemen, two employees of the

10     Zadar-Knin Police Administration, establish check-points with the

11     military police.

12             Was that the decision that Mr. Bitanga would have taken, in

13     operation?

14        A.   Yes, he could have made a decision like that.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  If we can just go to another document, 65 ter 2310.

17        Q.   This is a report from Mr. Grancaric, Captain Grancaric, of the

18     72nd Military Police, 3rd Company, Zadar, it's dated the

19     10th of August, 1995.  And it refers to -- in the report from the

20     3rd till 9th of August, and it says in the first sentence:

21             "After meetings with the coordinator of the military police,

22     Major Ivan Juric, the head of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration,

23     commander of the operation group, Colonel Mladen Fuzul, head of SIS.  And

24     it goes on to refer to issuing tasks.

25             It's just this matter here I wanted to ask you about, where --

Page 23407

 1     first of all, Major Juric, did you ever meet a coordinator for the

 2     military police from the military police administration,

 3     Major Ivan Juric?

 4        A.   Possibly once, but I don't really remember.  He might have been

 5     at Plitvice, that meeting that was held there later on.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Where it refers to the head of the Zadar-Knin

 7     Police Administration and goes on to refer to Colonel Fuzul, would that

 8     have been you identified there in this report?

 9        A.   I think this is wrong.  I think that was the chief from the Knin

10     administration.  I don't remember having attended that meeting myself.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  I want to turn now to another exhibit.

12             MR. KAY:  It's -- can I make that an exhibit.  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's first deal with that then.

14             Ms. Mahindaratne.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

18     Exhibit D1749.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D1749 is admitted into evidence.

20             Mr. Kay, I'm looking at the clock.  It's a bit earlier, but since

21     you're moving to another document, we'll have to take the break rather

22     strict at 3.45.

23             MR. KAY:  Let's take it now, Your Honour.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, before that, may I just -- so

25     that the -- it's line -- page 30, line 19 there is a correction.  It's

Page 23408

 1     just the way the name is written Major Juric is written with D-j-u-r-i-c.

 2     I believe it should be J-u-r-i-c, being sure that the record is clear.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you know that usually the transcript is

 4     reviewed after the court hearings.  If you have any such technical

 5     remark, the best of dealing with it is to write it down on a piece of

 6     paper and give it to the transcriber so that it's, for certain, that it

 7     appears appropriate.  But, nevertheless, thanks for your accuracy,

 8     Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9             We will have a -- no, let me first ask Madam Usher to escort the

10     witness out of the courtroom.

11             We will have a break, Mr. Cetina, and we would like to see you

12     back in approximately 25 minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We talked about scheduling for next week.  The

15     Chamber has received the time estimates for this witness, and it seems

16     that, if everyone behaves very disciplined, that there would be a fair

17     possibility to conclude the evidence of this witness on Friday, so that

18     he doesn't have to stay over the weekend.  The parties are urged and

19     encouraged to -- not only to stick to their time-limits - we lost in the

20     beginning some time on procedural matters - but also, if possible, to

21     leave some time for Chamber's questions as well.

22             We will have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes

23     past 4.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 23409

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             May we have Exhibit D46, please.  Letter from Mr. Moric to

 5     General Lausic of the military police administration on the

 6     10th of August, 1995.

 7        Q.   Can you look at this letter, please, Mr. Cetina.

 8             Mr. Moric writes:

 9             "According to reports from the field, and in particular the

10     territories of Lika-Senj and Zadar-Knin Police Administrations and

11     Vojnic and Vrginmost areas, cases are being noted of individual

12     Croatian army members on liberated territory stealing movable property

13     and burning houses and killing the cattle that strays around the area."

14             And it refers to a lack of co-operation at check-points and

15     roadblocks between the MUP police and military police members.

16             First of all, what had you communicated to Mr. Moric about what

17     was happening in the field?

18        A.   According to the vertical chain of command, we sent daily reports

19     on the events we noted in the field.

20        Q.   And were these day reports summaries of what your police stations

21     were receiving as reports?

22        A.   Yes.  These were collated reports that were sent on a daily basis

23     to the headquarters of the ministry, and all the police administrations

24     affected by Operation Storm had to do it.

25        Q.   Just so that we now how the system worked, did individual police

Page 23410

 1     stations report to your police administration and then did you send the

 2     information to Zagreb, having collected it together?

 3        A.   Precisely so.  Precisely so.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  If we can look at D49 next, Exhibit D49, please.

 6        Q.   This also comes from Mr. Moric.  It's dated the 18th of August

 7     and goes to your police administration as well as to the Knin police

 8     station.  And we see there, again, the paragraph:

 9             "Written and oral reports by police stations and police

10     administrations shows [sic] that there are daily cases of torching houses

11     and illegal taking away of people's movable property in areas liberated

12     in Operation Storm."

13             And then it refers to individuals wearing Croatian army uniforms.

14     And it goes into an order.  And it's that I want to look at.

15             Point 1 of the order says:

16             "Police administration chiefs must immediately convene a meeting

17     with commanders of military police battalions to inform them of the

18     problem and of the decision to put a stop to it ..."

19             Did you convene a meeting with the commanders of the military

20     police battalions in your police administration?

21        A.   I passed the order from the ministry down to the chief of the

22     uniformed police department, Mr. Bitanga.

23        Q.   And did you give Mr. Bitanga any instructions as to what to do?

24        A.   The order is quite clear and self-explanatory.

25        Q.   So is it a -- did you give him a copy of this order?

Page 23411

 1        A.   The competent chief would receive every single order which came

 2     from the ministry.

 3        Q.   Was it only Mr. Bitanga that you gave this to, or was there any

 4     other of your chiefs within your police administration whom you also

 5     passed it on to?

 6        A.   It is highly likely that we gave it to the Kotar-Knin

 7     Police Administration and to the police stations.

 8        Q.   In point 2, Mr. Moric requires that:

 9             "The meeting must be informed of the decision that cases of

10     torching of houses and ... taking of ... property ... will not be

11     operatively investigated, but a stop must be put to cases of this type as

12     of today ..."

13             Are you able to explain what that meant to you?

14        A.   Well, I don't know what Mr. Moric meant by it.  However, by that

15     date, we had already processed a certain number of cases and had already

16     confiscated the property that had been appropriated.

17        Q.   Did this part of the order have any effect on how you conducted

18     your police operations?

19        A.   No.  To the best of our abilities, we had already been abiding by

20     and implementing the Law on Criminal Procedure and the Criminal Code.

21        Q.   In point 3, it says:

22             "... commanders of military police battalions are to be requested

23     that mixed barrier check-points and mixed patrols of civilian and

24     military police be set up in all populated areas where there are members

25     of the Croatian army ... and the check-points and patrols will ...

Page 23412

 1     prevent the ... problems."

 2             Did you have, at that time, a system of joint check-points and

 3     joint patrols with the military police within your police administration?

 4        A.   We had always set up the necessary check-points independently.

 5     It was difficult to come to an agreement with the military police because

 6     their forces were far weaker.

 7        Q.   Are you able to give a figure as to how many military police

 8     officers there were within your police administration?

 9        A.   I can't remember.  I don't know the figures.  Fewer, at any -- by

10     all means, fewer.

11        Q.   And what about in Kotar-Knin Police Administration?

12        A.   The same applied to that -- to that administration.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, may I seek a clarification of one of the

15     previous answers.

16             Mr. Cetina, Mr. Kay asked you whether the -- whether the part of

17     the order where it said that it should be stopped, stealing and such kind

18     of things, you said that it had no effect and how you conducted your

19     police stations because, to the best of your abilities, you already been

20     abiding and implementing the Law on Criminal Procedure and the

21     Criminal Code.

22             In your previous answer, you said that you had already processed

23     a certain number of cases and had already confiscated the property that

24     had been appropriated.

25             Now, it's not entirely clear to me what you meant by "we had

Page 23413

 1     already been abiding and implementing the Law on Criminal Procedure and

 2     the Criminal Code."

 3             Would that mean that you would continue any investigation that

 4     had started already?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the early days, as far as we

 6     were able to, in every case where a person was stopped in a vehicle with

 7     misappropriated goods, we took the proper course of action.  In that

 8     context, the order issued by Mr. Moric did not add anything new to our

 9     activity, did not mean anything specific.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you be concrete.  If there was car, you found

11     a car with misappropriated goods, you took the proper course of action.

12     What would that mean?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that the vehicle and the

14     goods, if they were stolen, were confiscated and a criminal report was

15     filed.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you would receive a report from

17     someone who said, Well, last week this and this happened; I was -- my

18     property was stolen, would you then further investigate that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there was the required degree of

20     suspicion, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So you just ignored the order that torching of

22     houses and taking of property should not be operatively investigated.

23     You ignored that order?

24             Is that how I have to understand it?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  We were acting in

Page 23414

 1     accordance with the Law on the Interior and the Law on

 2     Criminal Procedure.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you ever respond to that order in a way

 4     that you would not obey to it but that you would do what you were

 5     supposed to do under the legislation which was effective at the time?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no need for such a

 7     response, because the laws that I referred to had supremacy over the

 8     order.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

10             MR. KAY:  And dealing with one matter arising from that --

11        Q.   Did you say the Law on Criminal Procedure and the Law on

12     Internal Affairs, rather than the Criminal Code?  It was translated as

13     the Criminal Code, but did you say Law on Internal Affairs?  Page 35,

14     line 7.

15        A.   I said the Law on Internal Affairs and the Law on

16     Criminal Procedure.

17        Q.   Yes.  And it's the Law on Internal Affairs that requires you to

18     act as soon as you have information concerning a crime?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One more question in this respect.

22             Mr. Cetina, do I understand your testimony well that you say that

23     this order actually is in violation of the law was in effect at the time?

24     Because it orders you to do something which you say, We couldn't do that

25     because the law tells us to do otherwise.

Page 23415

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever the law envisaged such a

 2     course of procedure, that was the way we proceeded.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that was not my question.  My question was

 4     whether you then considered this order to be in violation of the existing

 5     legislation.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a certain way, it is not, in

 7     fact, in accordance with the law.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So, in a certain way, it's a violation of the law.

 9     That's ...

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a way, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Kay.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  Can we go to Exhibit D584, please.

14        Q.   This is a document from you, Mr. Cetina, dated the

15     19th of August, 1995.  And it concerns the document we've just been

16     looking at from Mr. Moric.  And it says:

17             "Please be informed that we had a meeting on the

18     16th of August, 1995 with the Deputy Commander of the 72nd Battalion of

19     the military police, Mr. Primorac, and on the 17th of August, 1995, with

20     the commander of the 71st Battalion of the military police, Mr. Matanic,

21     during which the tasks from your telegram ... were elaborated.  Please

22     note that the Deputy Commander and the Commander of the military police

23     pointed out that coordinated action at all check-points was impossible

24     due to the lack of personnel."

25             Firstly, was that a meeting that you personally had, or was it,

Page 23416

 1     again, Mr. Bitanga?

 2        A.   As far as I remember, I think it was Mr. Bitanga who chaired the

 3     meeting.

 4        Q.   And did he report this to you about the military police having

 5     lack of personnel?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we can go to Exhibit D1071.

 9        Q.   This is from the commander of the 72nd Military Police Battalion,

10     Major Budimir, dated the 19th of August, 1995, and it goes to the chief

11     of the military police administration, General Lausic.  And it concerns a

12     similar order to Mr. Moric's that Mr. Lausic had made concerning

13     co-operation.  And it's his report to him.  We can see in paragraph 1:

14     Coordination meeting with Mr. Radalj, head of police sector in

15     Split-Dalmatia.

16             Do you know Mr. Radalj of the Split-Dalmatia Police?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And was his position the equivalent of Mr. Bitanga's?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In Sinj we can see coordination meeting with Mr. Bilobrk.  And in

21     number 3, Sibenik, again, a coordination meeting.  We can see about the

22     matters raised there.

23             And then in number 4, it says a coordinating meeting was not held

24     in Zadar-Knin Police Administration, because, according to Mr. Cetina,

25     head of the police administration, he orders to establish contact at the

Page 23417

 1     level of command of the military police battalion, 71 and 72, and no

 2     orders on establishing contact at lower levels.  Also, he said he would

 3     organise a meeting at the level of commands of these two military police

 4     battalions, which carry out military and police tasks in the territory of

 5     the police administration.

 6             Do you have a comment to make on that point made by

 7     Commander Budimir concerning your contact with the command of the

 8     71st and the 72nd?

 9        A.   This is precisely what I said a moment ago.  In other words, that

10     it was Chief Bitanga who was supposed to make that contact.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KAY:  Can I now turn to Exhibit D50.

13        Q.   This is another order from Mr. Moric to the police

14     administrations on the 22nd of August, 1995, and concerns that order we

15     saw on the 18th of August.  And he sets out his order of the linking with

16     the military police to stop houses being burnt, property being taken.

17     The letter sent to the military police administration describing the

18     issue and what the military police administration had asked the

19     battalions to do.  And then he asked for the problem at the state level

20     to be monitored, and he was to be informed by reports about co-operation

21     with the military police, and it's sent out, 1, 2, 3, and 4, the types of

22     co-operation and information that he wanted.  And in 5, 6, 7, and in the

23     next page in the English, statistics concerning investigations, crimes,

24     and how many perpetrators were wearing Croatian military uniform and how

25     many have abused the uniform, and with a date for the reports.

Page 23418

 1             Did you take steps, as a result of receiving this order, to

 2     monitor these matters?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  If we could go to another document, at Exhibit D586.

 6        Q.   This is from Mr. Moric to General Lausic of the military police

 7     administration.  And it, again, discusses further the issue that we have

 8     been looking at.  And we can see in the second paragraph that information

 9     had been received about the demobilisation of a certain number of

10     conscripts has begun and more extensive -- probably meaning

11     demobilisation can be expected, and then describing what problems could

12     be happening.  And he makes proposals in relation to dealing with this

13     problem.

14             If I can ask you this:  Demobilisation of troops from the

15     Croatian army after the liberation of the occupied territories, did that

16     have an effect upon crime within your police administration?

17        A.   I presume so.  These individuals hailed from the territory.

18        Q.   Are you able to describe what happened, then, in relation to

19     conscripts being demobilised?  What effect did that have within your

20     police administration?

21        A.   I believe to this day that these were individuals who had

22     probably kept or held on to quite an amount of weapons and to their

23     uniforms, that they were the ones who committed the crimes that were the

24     subject of our reports to the ministry.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23419

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, may we go into private session for a

13     minute, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23420











11  Page 23420 redacted. Private session.















Page 23421

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Just looking at this document, there are problems

23     mentioned within this document that there are still no foot patrols due

24     to lack of military policemen who still cannot join up.

25        Q.   Was that something you were aware of, Mr. Cetina, about the

Page 23422

 1     shortage of military police for patrols within

 2     Kotar-Knin Police Administration?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in the fourth paragraph, it refers to during joint meetings

 5     we've learned that members of the military police at command are located

 6     at the outermost boundaries of our security zone.  And it mentions Dabar

 7     and a number of other places which are beyond my linguistic skills, but

 8     I'll pick out the ones I can pronounce:  Drnis, Otric, Mostine,

 9     Vrlika-Kijevo, et cetera.  We can see the places there.

10             Are you able to comment on that particular problem of military

11     police being at the outermost boundaries of the territory of the

12     Kotar-Knin Police Administration?

13        A.   All I can say is that they did not stick to the agreement reached

14     with us.  Now, the reason why they were up at those positions, I really

15     don't know what that was.

16        Q.   Did you know anything about those places listed in this document,

17     whether they had any significance in relation to the -- what the military

18     was doing and the needs of the military police to be in those places?

19        A.   No, I have no knowledge of that.

20        Q.   The coordination between the Kotar-Knin Police Administration and

21     the 72nd Military Police Battalion, was that something you knew about at

22     the time?  Did you discuss that with Mr. Romanic?

23        A.   Yes, I did discuss it with him.

24        Q.   And what did he describe his co-operation as being with the 72nd?

25     What type of co-operation did he have?

Page 23423

 1        A.   He didn't have proper co-operation, and, in fact, we had agreed

 2     that he should report directly about that, report to the

 3     Ministry of Internal Affairs.  And he had the right and duty to do that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  If we can go to Exhibit P498.

 6        Q.   This is a report from you to Mr. Moric on the 24th of August

 7     concerning your co-operation.  And we can see in the second

 8     paragraph that you say:

 9             "The co-operation between police administrations, police

10     stations, and branch ... stations is ... satisfactory."

11             You don't have major complaints.  There are still some cases of

12     house burning, destruction of houses, removal of property, but to a

13     lesser extent than was the case before the 18th of August.  The

14     perpetrators of these acts are, for the most part, persons in

15     Croatian army uniforms, civilians, and there are also a few cases of

16     police personnel who appear in uniform.

17             The phrase "of persons in Croatian army uniforms," what did you

18     mean by that?

19        A.   If we weren't able to identify the persons or, rather, the

20     individuals who had insignia of the Croatian army, then this is how we

21     would describe them, or refer to them.

22        Q.   So could civilians wearing Croatian army uniforms with insignia

23     fall into that category of persons?

24        A.   If we were able to establish their identity, then, yes.

25        Q.   It says here further on that:

Page 23424

 1             "The military police is to a maximum degree involved in criminal

 2     investigation.  They deal with uniformed persons while other cases are

 3     dealt with by civilian police personnel."

 4             Could you say what you meant by that?

 5        A.   Well, what I can say is this.  Once it was established that an

 6     individual was officially a member of the Croatian army, then it was our

 7     duty, and we insisted upon, having the crime police of the military

 8     police be included in the case.

 9        Q.   Did you know how many crime police of the military police were

10     in -- were within your territorial area?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   If we look down here at the -- at cases "and following an

13     investigation, 15 civilian perpetrators, four in civilian police uniforms

14     identified, we don't have exact information about members of the HV since

15     they are being handled by the military police ..."

16             Did you keep any figures on the numbers of HV personnel that were

17     handed over to the military police?

18        A.   I don't remember keeping that kind of record.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  If we can go to Exhibit D589.

21        Q.   This is a report by you dated the 28th of August.  Again, to

22     Mr. Moric on the same matter.  It concerns treatment of persons in

23     military uniforms.  It says:

24             "During the past several days, a significant number of persons

25     wearing Croatian army uniforms, carrying long and short-barrelled arms,

Page 23425

 1     driving in cars and other vehicles with civilian registration plates have

 2     been observed on patrols ..."

 3             Now, that piece of information there, about "persons wearing

 4     Croatian army uniforms being in cars and other vehicles with civilian

 5     registration plates," what type of people were they?

 6        A.   I'd like to see the lower half of this document, please.

 7        Q.   Yes, of course.

 8        A.   I can't see who signed it.  Yes, it was signed by

 9     Mr. Marijan Tomurad.

10        Q.   And Mr. Tomurad, his position was what, within the

11     Zadar-Knin Police Administration?

12        A.   He was the deputy.  He replaced Mr. Djurica as main coordinator.

13        Q.   Yeah.  So that piece of information there about persons wearing

14     Croatian army uniforms but being in cars and other vehicles with civilian

15     registration plates, were those serving HV soldiers, or were there any

16     other type of other person?

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I -- there is one, I think,

18     important -- actually, two words -- a phrase that was omitted from the

19     question.  If the -- if Mr. Registrar could take the document to the --

20     to the previous page, the first page.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could -- if could you just draw the attention

22     of Mr. Kay to where --

23             MR. KAY:  I can deal with it, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think Mr. Kay is aware.

Page 23426

 1             MR. KAY:  Yeah, I can see -- thank you.  It says significant

 2     number of persons wearing HV Croatian army uniforms of various units

 3     carrying long and short-barrelled arms, driving in cars and other

 4     vehicles with civilian registration plates.

 5        Q.   My question is, Mr. Cetina, is:  Who were these people?  Are they

 6     able to be identified?

 7        A.   This document was signed by Mr. Tomurad.

 8        Q.   Are you able do comment on -- on what he was observing there and

 9     writing in this report to Mr. Moric?

10        A.   Well, yes, I can comment.  It was probably on the basis of the

11     information that he had, whether gained personally or information

12     received from others, other police chiefs, that this was a problem that

13     they were facing.  That is to say that persons wearing uniforms were

14     moving around, bearing weapons, and moving around in vehicles.

15        Q.   Further on in this report, in the last paragraph, it says:

16             "I also deem it necessary to achieve an agreement according do

17     which the chief of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, or the

18     Knin district police administration, or persons authorised by them, may

19     be present at the meetings that General Cermak holds with members of the

20     UNCRO, UNCIVPOL, and other international organisations in Knin, so as to

21     ensure that the police are informed about all agreements and conclusions

22     reached which will enable them to organise and plan tasks and duties from

23     their purview, accordingly."

24             Are you able to explain to what this refers?

25        A.   This was a good proposal on the part of Mr. Tomurad.  And the

Page 23427

 1     police was very much interested in receiving all manner of information

 2     about crimes and, by the same token, information from UNCRO and UNCIVPOL.

 3     And since we knew that Mr. Cermak was holding meetings, he did not have

 4     any authorisation to manage police procedure.  We thought that it was

 5     necessary for one of us to be there and to take over the information from

 6     members of UNCRO and UNCIVPOL.  And that was the sole motive.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware that whilst Mr. Moric was making these

 8     orders to the police administrations on co-operation and coordination

 9     that, in a parallel way, General Lausic was also making similar orders of

10     co-operation and coordination to the Military Police Battalions?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I object, Mr. President, leading question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, the question was leading.

13             MR. KAY:  Well, yes.  I don't particularly see any problem

14     arising from it.  I mean, I think sometimes evidence is to be taken in a

15     reasonable way.  I'm asking if he was aware of any reports from

16     General Lausic to --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there was more in your question, Mr. Kay.  But

18     if you would rephrase it, then -- it's -- and, at the same time,

19     Ms. Mahindaratne is reminded that objecting on the basis of leading

20     should be limited to where it really makes a difference.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Well, shall we look at a document, then,

23     Exhibit D1072.

24        Q.   It's dated the 30th of August from General Lausic of the military

25     police administration to the military police battalions.  Its subject is

Page 23428

 1     coordination meetings with members of the MUP regarding more effective

 2     co-operation.  And in this report -- this order, he requires daily

 3     exchange of daily reports.

 4             Were you aware of steps being taken by General Lausic in which he

 5     was making these kinds of orders to his military police battalions?

 6        A.   I've never seen this document before.  But I assumed, that - just

 7     like Mr. Moric - this was sent to, or certainly orders were sent out to,

 8     in this way.

 9        Q.   Yes, thank you.

10             MR. KAY:  Can we now turn to Exhibit P499.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're awaiting for it to appear, you earlier

12     quoted, Mr. Kay, from P498.  And that was about the 15 civilians and

13     where the document says "and four in civilian police uniform," it's now

14     as a comma which could give it quite a different meaning.

15             So, therefore, could I insist on very precise quoting.  You know

16     what I mean?

17             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It says 15 -- if you say comma four it could be

19     understood as "four of which," whereas if it's a "and four" then that has

20     a different meaning and that's the reason why I'm -- it's not very vital

21     for your question because your question finally resulted in something

22     else, but I'd rather have that as precise as possible.

23             MR. KAY:  I don't think I mentioned "comma," Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't mention "comma," but you did not read

25     "and," from what I remember, and that has caused it to appear in the

Page 23429

 1     transcript as "comma."

 2             MR. KAY:  I apologise, Your Honour.

 3             P499 is under seal.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it should not be shown to the public, and I

 5     take it then that you'll consider the confidential character of the

 6     document in your questioning.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KAY:  Of course, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   The 1st of September, 1995, from the Kotar-Knin Police

10     Administration and sent to Mr. Moric in Zagreb, further to those orders

11     of his for reports.  And it says:

12             "Please be informed we had holding joint meetings can the

13     commanders of the 72nd Battalion of the military police in the area

14     covered by the Knin district police administration.  Military police

15     personnel have not been included in the joint work at check-points.  They

16     act only on their own orders.

17             The last line of the security zone:

18             "Coordination and joint co-operation are inadequate.  The

19     commanders are unable to allocate the necessary number of personnel to

20     have a permanent physical presence at check-points, and they only agree

21     to act on our reports when the perpetrators are members of the Croatian

22     army, who they also deal with at our request."

23             But this problem here, within the Kotar-Knin

24     Police Administration concerning the number of military police, was that

25     something that you were aware of at the time?

Page 23430

 1        A.   Yes, in a way, yes.  Well, that means that if an agreement had

 2     been reached at a higher level, then, on the ground, they either acted as

 3     best they could or had a shortage of men.

 4        Q.   So what was your expectation as between the co-operation being

 5     ordered by Mr. Moric, as well as the co-operation being ordered by the

 6     military police administration, General Lausic?  What was your

 7     expectation from the military police?

 8        A.   Well, the expectations were that they should -- we should man the

 9     check-points jointly.  That is to say, to have the necessary number of

10     men, the number that we had agreed upon, and to implement that.

11             However, in practice, that happened very rarely.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. KAY:  If we could go to 2D00783.

14             Your Honour, may I have leave to add this to the

15     Rule 65 ter list?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

19        Q.   It's a document signed for you by Mr. Kardum dated the

20     1st of September, and it's sent to all police stations with a deadline

21     for commanders.  And this document goes to Kotar-Knin

22     Police Administration, Gambiroza Zvonko, every commander is to deliver a

23     report on these tasks.  And then we see:

24             "For the purpose of stopping houses been burnt and other people's

25     removal property being taken away ... it is being ordered to link the VP

Page 23431

 1     with the PU and PPs in order to solve this problem."

 2             And then:

 3             "In order to monitor the problem at the police administration

 4     level ..."

 5             These points are set out concerning co-operation and statistics.

 6     And then a written report was required to be sent to the deputy chief of

 7     the basic crime police section at Zadar-Knin Police Administration?

 8             Firstly who was the deputy chief of the basic crime section at

 9     Zadar-Knin Police Administration?

10        A.   Formally, it did not have a deputy; although a person was

11     assigned to -- to the post, and I can't remember who it was.

12        Q.   And what was to happen with this information that was being sent?

13        A.   This is precisely the information that we collected from police

14     stations and which we were duty-bound to forward to the

15     Ministry of the Interior.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KAY:  If we look now at the next page in this document,

18     page 3 -- or page 2 in the -- page 2 in the Croatian --

19        Q.   We can see from the 6th Police Station in Benkovac, dated the

20     2nd of September, from Mr. Saponja, and it refers to co-operation between

21     the police station in Benkovac and the military police as being good as

22     efficient.  And complaints and poor co-operation have not been present.

23     And then it refers to reports concerning the setting of family houses on

24     fire of people who are of Serbian origin, as well as reports about

25     demolition and taking away other people's property, although in less

Page 23432

 1     proportion, and the ... police is undertaking necessary measures.

 2             And returning the figures of five arson, two serious larceny, as

 3     on-site investigations completed, and that -- this was being delivered to

 4     Zadar-Knin.

 5             So what would happen with this information, Mr. Cetina?

 6        A.   The information was processed and sent to the

 7     Ministry of the Interior, as part of one compound report.

 8        Q.   Just taking that police station in Benkovac, are you able to say,

 9     for instance, how many police officers worked at a police station such as

10     that?

11        A.   As far as I remember, between 70 -- anything between 70, 80,

12     or 90.

13        Q.   And the area that it covered?  Are you able to help us with that?

14        A.   I don't know what the size of the area was, but it was an area

15     that bordered with the Zadar territory.  It is closer to Zadar than to

16     Knin and other places.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  May that document be made an exhibit, please,

19     Your Honour.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

23     Exhibit D1750.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D1750 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KAY:  Can we go to Exhibit D576, please.

Page 23433

 1        Q.   This is a document from you.  It's a report, as requested from

 2     the original order of Mr. Moric.  It's dated the 2nd of September and

 3     concerns burning houses, removal of property.  And it refers to the

 4     co-operation of the police with the military police "is inadequate in the

 5     entire area."

 6             And that this issue was analysed at a meeting of the

 7     Knin district police station commanders and the MUP coordinator on the

 8     30th of August in Gracac.

 9             Can you tell us, was that a meeting with the military police, or

10     was it a meeting just of the civil police?

11        A.   I can't remember at this point.  However, it -- it is probable

12     that the police ourselves, we, ourselves, held the meeting on our own.

13        Q.   And it took place in Gracac with the MUP coordinator.  Who was

14     that, on the 30th of August?

15        A.   I would have to rely on what the text says because I don't

16     remember.  It is in the plural, all the coordinators who were present in

17     the police stations located in the liberated territory.

18        Q.   So it was all the police station commanders, as well as

19     coordinators were at this meeting; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   As the text shows, there was criticism of the military police and

22     the shortages of units of the 71st and of the 72nd.  How was this

23     criticism of the military police dealt with?  What -- here you are at a

24     meeting of the civilian police.  You identify this problem in their

25     performance.  What was done about it?

Page 23434

 1        A.   We could inform the ministry thereof, and we didn't have any

 2     other option.

 3        Q.   At this time, your police administration had also been ordered to

 4     have meetings with the military police commanders.  Were your problems

 5     and criticisms expressed directly to the military police by your police

 6     administration?

 7        A.   Always at the meetings, we raised the problems that we had

 8     informed the ministry of in writing.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. KAY:  If we turn now to Exhibit P2206.

11        Q.   This is a report, analysis, submitted by the military police

12     administration, on the 12th of September, 1995, and sent to the military

13     police battalions, including the 71st and 72nd.  And it's an analysis by

14     them of the co-operation between the MUP and the military police between

15     the 22nd of August and 31st of August.

16             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to page 4 in the English and page 4 in the

17     Croatian where we see the comment on the Zadar-Knin Police Administration

18     that has been put in this report.

19        Q.   And it's written here "Zadar-Knin Police Administration."

20             And it says:

21             "The co-operation is not satisfactory, and quite inadequate in

22     the area of Knin, Obrovac, and Gracac, where they have not been included

23     at the check-points."

24             Looking at that comment, what would you say about that assertion

25     that you weren't in -- your police administration wasn't including the

Page 23435

 1     military police at the check-points?

 2        A.   This is the first time I am seeing this.  Well, of course, the

 3     ministry forwarded all the information they received from us to the

 4     military police administration.

 5        Q.   Well, was it right that your police weren't including the

 6     military police at check-points?

 7        A.   Well, we would have been glad and content had they manned all the

 8     check-points that were necessary.  This isn't correct that we didn't

 9     include them.

10        Q.   After the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, it deals with the

11     Knin Police Administration, although we've seen the area of Knin has

12     already been referred to.  And it says, on page 5 of the English:

13             "Knin police administration.  The problem of co-operation is the

14     same as Zadar-Knin Police Administration."

15             Would you care to comment on that, whether the Knin police

16     administration was also not including the military police on

17     check-points?

18             Is that right?

19        A.   They would surely have included them, had they provided the

20     necessary men.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. KAY:  If we go to D581, Exhibit D581.

23        Q.   Another report by you to Mr. Moric on the subject of

24     co-operation, dated the 12th of September, 1995.  It says here the

25     co-operation between the various police administrations, stations, is

Page 23436

 1     decent but inadequate.  Problems occur in the implementation of

 2     agreements because there is no co-operation.

 3             MR. KAY:  We've got the wrong document on the screen.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This isn't the right document.

 5             MR. KAY:  Exhibit D581.  There we are.  That's the English.

 6        Q.   This is your report to Mr. Moric on co-operation.  And it -- it

 7     refers to eliminating problems at daily meetings between the police

 8     stations.

 9             "Personnel of the military police are short of personnel ... some

10     check-points do not have a presence."

11             Again, was that because you were not including them at

12     check-points, or because they didn't have enough personnel?

13        A.   No.  We would certainly have included them, had they provided the

14     necessary personnel.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a meeting that you attended in a hotel at

16     the Plitvice Lakes on the 15th of September, which was a joint meeting of

17     the MUP and the military police?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you express there your view about the problems with

20     co-operation with the military police in your area?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. KAY:  If we can look at Exhibit D595 and turn to page 4 of

23     the English, page 3 of the Croatian.

24        Q.   We can see Colonel Budimir refers to the large area covered by

25     the 72nd Military Police and didn't agree with opinions that there was

Page 23437

 1     not enough manpower.  I won't ask about that.

 2             But the area covered by the 72nd Military Police, are you able to

 3     help us with that?  What was the extent of their territorial

 4     responsibility?

 5        A.   The structure and the area of responsibility of the military

 6     police was not organised in the same way as that of the police.

 7     Therefore, the areas covered by the 71st and the 72nd Battalions coincide

 8     with the territories of the entire Splitsko-Dalmatinska,

 9     Zadarsko-Kninska, Licko-Sinjska, and Primorsko-Gorinska

10     Police Administrations.  I do believe, indeed, that they did not have

11     enough personnel to cover the entire territory.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. KAY:  If we can now look at another document which is on the

14     same subject but a different topic, Exhibit D802.

15        Q.   And this is a record from the military police administration

16     concerning Operative Action Varivode between the 6th of October and

17     10th of October, 1995.  This report is dated the 11th of October.  And we

18     can see that there was a meeting of people involved in Operative Action

19     Varivode at the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, which included yourself

20     and Mr. Bitanga and other members of the MUP, as well as, on behalf of

21     the military police administration, Colonel Kozic, Major Ivan Juric,

22     Captain Eluga [phoen].  And I now want to ask you about this particular

23     matter.

24             What was Operative Action Varivode?  How did that come about?

25        A.   It was an action carried out in connection with the criminal

Page 23438

 1     investigation for the suspected murders in the places of Varivode and

 2     Gosici.

 3        Q.   Was this a joint initiative between the MUP and the military

 4     police?

 5        A.   I suppose so, because senior officers of the military police and

 6     the civilian police force were engaged.

 7        Q.   Had any similar initiative to this happened before?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MR. KAY:  If we look at the document, we can see, on page 2 in

10     the English, Chief Djurica in the Zadar-Knin Police Administration.  And

11     if we can have page 2 of the Croatian.

12        Q.   Discuss the current general security situation in the field and

13     measures undertaken, and specific points are -- are made of how the

14     military police and MUP are to work, staff of ordinary and special police

15     with check-points.  And it's set out, further on, about patrol cars.  And

16     it has a goal.  And if we turn to page 3 in the English, we can see the

17     level of discussion and specific details that are referred to.

18             And as a result of the check-points, we see a number of figures,

19     of people who are checked, vehicles searched.

20             Page 4 of the English.  Details of arrests that were -- were

21     made, people warned, what was confiscated.  And we can see the detail of

22     how things operated.

23             What sort of area did Operation Varivode cover?  Was it

24     throughout the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, or was it in a more

25     local position?  What did it cover?

Page 23439

 1        A.   In fact, one could say that it was the first step leading to a

 2     higher quality co-operation between the military police and the civilian

 3     police, and it led to the resolution of these criminal cases.

 4        Q.   Could these measures have been applied throughout the whole of

 5     the area of your police administration?

 6        A.   Absolutely, yes.  With this sort of organisation.

 7        Q.   Are you able to comment at all as to why it didn't happen before

 8     between the MUP and the military police, that you operated in -- in this

 9     way, as you did with Varivode?

10        A.   In my view, the sole reason was the absence of co-operation --

11     the fact that no co-operation was forthcoming from the military police.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I'm looking at the clock.

14             MR. KAY:  Yes, I have just finished this matter as well,

15     Your Honour.  That is a convenient moment.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I would -- first I would like to ask

17     Madam Usher to escort Mr. Cetina out of the courtroom.

18             We will have a break, Mr. Cetina.  We'd like to see you back in

19     20 to 25 minutes.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And I would like to deliver the Chamber's reasons

22     for its decision to hear Witness Akashi's testimony via video-conference

23     link.

24             On the 24th of August, 2009, the Gotovina Defence orally

25     requested to hear the Witness Akashi's testimony via video-conference

Page 23440

 1     link.  This request was made in private session and the public is hereby

 2     informed of it.

 3             The Gotovina Defence argued that video-conference link testimony

 4     for Witness Akashi would be in the interests of its client's rights to a

 5     expeditious trial, also considering the age of the witness and the

 6     distance he would have to travel to come to The Hague.  These submissions

 7     can be found at transcript pages 20.725.

 8             On the 25th of August, 2009, the Prosecution orally responded,

 9     not objecting to the Gotovina Defence's request.  On the same day, the

10     Chamber granted the request an ordered that Witness Akashi's testimony be

11     heard via video-conference link.  The public was informed of this

12     decision on 15th September, 2009.  And this can be found at transcript

13     page 21.616.  Witness Akashi testified through video-conference link on

14     the 15th and the 16th of September.

15             According to Rule 81 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of

16     Procedure and Evidence, a Chamber may order that proceedings be conducted

17     by way of a video-conference link if it is consistent with the interests

18     of justice.  The jurisprudence of this Tribunal has identified three

19     criteria to guide the exercise of the Chamber acting pursuant to this

20     Rule.  Those criteria are:  The witness is unable or has good reasons to

21     be unwilling to come to the seat of the Tribunal; the witness's testimony

22     is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the requesting party to

23     proceed without it; and the accused are not prejudiced in the exercise of

24     their rights to confront the witness.  However, after considering all

25     relevant factors in a particular case, the ultimate determination to be

Page 23441

 1     made when considering a request for video-conference link testimony is

 2     whether it would be consistent with the interests of justice.

 3             Witness Akashi was the UN Secretary-General's special

 4     representative to the former Yugoslavia and was acting in the Krajina

 5     area during the time-frame covered by the indictment.  Accordingly, the

 6     Chamber found that the witness's testimony would be sufficiently

 7     important to make it unfair to the requesting party to proceed without

 8     it.  Furthermore, the Chamber found that the accused would not be

 9     materially prejudiced in the exercise of their rights to confront the

10     witness if video-conference link were granted.

11             Although the Chamber did not find that Witness Akashi was unable

12     or unwilling for good reasons to come to The Hague, it considered the

13     witness's age, the distance he would have to travel to come to The Hague,

14     and the fact that the Gotovina Defence case was scheduled to be concluded

15     by early September 2009.  The Chamber found the amount of time,

16     resources, and effort it would take to arrange for Witness Akashi's

17     appearance in The Hague was not conducive to the expeditious completion

18     of the trial.

19             According, and recalling that there was no objections to the

20     request, the Chamber was satisfied that it would ultimately be consistent

21     with the interests of justice to hear Witness Akashi's testimony via

22     video-conference link.

23             And this concludes the Chamber's reasons on this decision.

24             We will have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes

25     past 6.00.

Page 23442

 1                           --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Cetina, if we could go to a document now, 2D00487.  The first

 7     page of this document is dated the 12th of October.

 8             MR. KAY:  But, in fact, we'll go to the second page, please.

 9     Page after that, page 3.  Or is it page 2?  It should be page 2.  The

10     next page, please.  Page 2 in the Croatian, page 3 in English.

11             Your Honour, this document, at the beginning, has a date on the

12     12th of October.

13        Q.   We can see here, dated the -- on the second page, the 30th of

14     August, and it's to the police administrations of Knin through

15     Zadar-Knin, and to Zadar-Knin, and it's from Franjo Djurica.  And it's

16     the rules for the joint work of the MUP and UNCIVPOL.

17             And we can see here that the letter refers to UNCRO UNCIVPOL

18     leadership and rules that were developed with the MUP and the Croatian

19     police that were adopted by the leadership and the special envoy,

20     Secretary-General of the UN, Mr. Akashi.  And these rules are being sent

21     out on this date, the 30th of August.

22             If we go to the next page, we go to a document headed:

23             "Operational Directives for the Joint Work of the Police."

24             Your Honour, the Court will recognise this as Exhibit P282, and

25     I'm using this document, it's included within it.  It's a linked document

Page 23443

 1     to this, Your Honour, Exhibit D240 and D53.

 2             This concerns joint co-operation between UNCIVPOL and the MUP.

 3     We can see here in point 2, Mr. Romanic is -- is mentioned, as well as

 4     Mr. Bijelic of the Glina Police Department.  And it concerns UNCIVPOL

 5     working with the MUP.

 6             And in paragraph 4, we can see that problems would be resolved by

 7     Mr. Bitanga of Zadar-Knin Police Department.

 8             And further on, on the fifth point, that if Mr. Bitanga and

 9     Mr. Bobetko can't, Mr. Franjo Djurica would solve problems.  And it

10     refers to patrols jointly between UNCIVPOL and the MUP.

11             Mr. Cetina, do you recollect this initiative between your police

12     administration and UNCIVPOL concerning joint procedures to monitor and

13     patrol, in relation to crimes and finding out information?

14        A.   Yes.  In principle, I do remember.  But I don't remember the

15     details, of course, not about the joint patrols.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what connection the Zadar-Knin had with -- with

17     UNCIVPOL?  When did communication between UNCIVPOL and your police

18     administration start?

19        A.   The first contacts, practical contacts, were between and among my

20     colleagues in Knin.  So Knin and the police stations.

21        Q.   And then between your police administration and UNCIVPOL?  Can

22     you recollect how long after Operation Storm that you had a joint

23     initiative with them?

24        A.   Roughly 15 to 20 days or a month went by before we had the first

25     meetings with representatives of UNCRO and UNCIVPOL.

Page 23444

 1        Q.   And were those meetings helpful?  What was your attitude towards

 2     them?

 3        A.   Our attitude at the beginning was that any information was

 4     welcome, from any institution or individual.  Any information coming into

 5     the police was seen as useful.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

11     Exhibit D1751.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1751 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KAY:  I now want to turn to another document, which is

14     Exhibit P245.  And it's the minutes of a meeting between UNCIVPOL and

15     Mr. Romanic at the Knin police station.

16        Q.   And we can see here that the police structure was discussed with

17     Mr. Romanic, as to the organisation.  The CIVPOL structure was discussed,

18     and the agreement we've just been looking at on the joint initiative,

19     Exhibit P282, was discussed.  A question of the number of Serbs was

20     raised.

21             MR. KAY:  And then if we go to page 2 of the English and page 2

22     of the Croatian.

23        Q.   Shootings in the street were raised between UNCIVPOL and

24     Mr. Romanic, and they had a discussion on that and about the police being

25     at the UNCRO camp gate.

Page 23445

 1             And then murder cases was raised, and this is what I wanted to

 2     direct your attention to.  Mr. Romanic was asked about information of

 3     certain murder cases observed by the HRAT and CIVPOL during the period

 4     after Operation Storm.  Mr. Romanic stated that all kind of investigation

 5     in the area was going on in Zadar.

 6             "The leader of this investigation is Mr. Ive Kardum, whom CIVPOL

 7     should address in this matter."

 8             And I want you to consider that and comment on it.  Was

 9     Zadar-Knin Police Administration responsible for all the murder

10     investigations within the Kotar-Knin Police Administration?

11        A.   Yes, there was the crime police department coordinated with the

12     headquarters within the ministry.

13        Q.   Did the Kotar-Knin Police Administration have a team of police

14     available to them to investigate any murders within that police

15     administration?

16        A.   That was the only department that was led by Mr. Kardum.

17        Q.   So for any murder investigation, Mr. Romanic had to turn and

18     refer the matter to Mr. Kardum; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. KAY:  Just turning now to 65 ter 4620.

22        Q.   This is a document from Mr. Elleby, in fact, as the Knin police

23     commander, and it concerns the killing of Sava Babic on the

24     5th of September and refers to the detail of what the UNMO had seen, and

25     that:

Page 23446

 1             "The civilian police is requesting to supervise the investigation

 2     of the killing and be present during the investigation of the Croatian

 3     police at the scene of the crime."

 4             We can see that document.  It's probably not a document you've

 5     seen before.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that is right.

 7        Q.   Yeah --

 8             MR. KAY:  And I'm only producing it to have a chain of events,

 9     Your Honour.

10             Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

14     Exhibit D1752.  Thank you.

15             MR. KAY:  If we can turn now --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. KAY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

18             Can we turn now to Exhibit D230.  And this is a letter from

19     Mr. Romanic dated 6th September, 1995, sent to the Zadar-Knin

20     Police Administration, criminal police department.  And it concerns the

21     Sava Babic murder that was raised by Mr. Elleby in that memo.

22        Q.   And he states that following the finding of the killed

23     Sava Babic, UNCIVPOL have requested the civilian police of Knin district

24     police administration, information on the circumstances of her death, and

25     what measures were taken and in what way the on-site investigation was

Page 23447

 1     carried out.

 2             Was that a correct procedure adopted by Mr. Romanic, in relation

 3     to this matter?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             Did your police administration receive information from the

 7     Kotar-Knin Police Administration of crimes that were being brought to

 8     their attention in reports by the UNCIVPOL?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. KAY:  If we can look here at Exhibit P253.

11        Q.   This is a document sent by the commander of Knin UNCIVPOL,

12     Mr. Romassev, on the 8th of September, 1995.  And he lists crimes that

13     were happening.  Included within this list of crimes are also killings

14     and bodies, and we can see the nature of the information that was being

15     given by him to the commander of Knin police station.

16             What should the commander of the Knin police station have done

17     with this information received by him from UNCIVPOL?

18        A.   As a rule, he should send on the report to the crime department

19     of the police.

20        Q.   And of which police administration would that have been?

21        A.   The Zadar-Knin Police Administration.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. KAY:  If we go to another document now, 2D00246.

24        Q.   It's dated the 12th of September, 1995, Knin Police

25     Administration.  Sent to the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, duty

Page 23448

 1     operations section.  Again, information provided by members of UNCRO.

 2             We can see, on the 12th of September, 1995, chief of Knin

 3     district police administration received information, it says here, from

 4     the ZP, Military District of the Croatian Army in Knin, stating that

 5     members of UNCRO had found two unknown female bodies, gives the details,

 6     and cites the place Brgud in Kistanje municipality.  And they stated that

 7     the women had die a violent death.

 8             We go to the next page of the English, and it refers to a car

 9     patrol being sent to the scene.  No bodies were found.  And at the end,

10     it says:

11             "We will keep you informed about new information in a timely

12     fashion."

13             So Knin reporting in that way to Zadar-Knin on the information

14     provided by UNCRO, was that the correct procedure for dealing with this

15     matter?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, might this document be made an exhibit,

18     please.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

22     Exhibit D1753.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, to save court time, similar document to

25     the one we've looked at earlier of the report is Exhibit P262, where

Page 23449

 1     Mr. Romassev, again, reports crimes to the Knin police station.  I don't

 2     go into the detail of that, as I think it will be repetitious, unless the

 3     Court would require me to.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it you want to --

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, to just submit it to the Court.

 7             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Just for reference purposes, Exhibit P262.

 8             Can we now go to Exhibit D179.  And for information purposes,

 9     Exhibit P262 includes to reference to that murder in Brgud on the

10     12th of September, 1995.

11             D179 is under seal so should not be shown to the public.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.

13             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Could you look at this document, please, Mr. Cetina.  It's from

15     Mr. Elleby, chief of UNCIVPOL in Sector South, and it was sent to you on

16     the 19th of September.  And it concerns murders committed since the

17     4th of August, 1995.  And Mr. Elleby attaches a list of all murders

18     reported to UNCIVPOL since the 4th of August, requesting information on

19     the progress of investigations, names of suspects, arrests, charges, any

20     convictions obtained, and requesting to see the files and to discuss the

21     same in a future meeting.

22             We'll just have a look at the pages of that.

23             MR. KAY:  If we can turn to page 2 of the English and the

24     Croatian.

25        Q.   We see here listed are various murders on various occasions, or

Page 23450

 1     bodies that were found.

 2             Do you recollect receiving this report from Mr. Elleby, in

 3     relation to these killings within this report?

 4        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 5        Q.   At the end of the report, there's a schedule of 44 names.

 6             MR. KAY:  Perhaps if we can just turn to the next page, again, to

 7     see the details.

 8        Q.   Were all these murders as listed within this report within your

 9     police administration?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to the next page.

12        Q.   Go through it again.  And the next page, just so that can you see

13     the details.  And then the page after that.  And then turn over again

14     until we get to the schedule at the end.  If we can continue through.

15     There we are.  If we can just go to the schedule at the end.

16             What did you do about this report when you received it on the

17     19th of September?

18        A.   First of all, I have to say that it's a list of persons who,

19     quite certainly, lost their lives during the war operations, or most of

20     them.  And you can see that if you look at the dates when they were

21     found.  Part of those persons were certainly murdered as well, that is to

22     say, the crime of murder had been committed against them.

23             Now, this list was sent to the crime police department.

24        Q.   Do you know if these killings had been registered with the crime

25     police already, so that investigations had already started on these

Page 23451

 1     killings?  Do you know what the situation was?

 2        A.   I don't remember now, but I'm certain that certain investigations

 3     had been started.  Others could not have been started because the bodies

 4     of these individuals were moved through the sanitisation of the terrain.

 5        Q.   Do you know what the crime police were able to do to respond to

 6     this report?

 7        A.   It could only have compared the data it had with the inquiries

 8     that had -- or investigations that had been started.

 9        Q.   Was there a response to Mr. Elleby's request for information and

10     details?

11        A.   I am certain that Mr. Elleby was informed of it orally.  I'm not

12     sure about written information though.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KAY:  If we can turn over the page again so that we go to the

15     next page of the list, which is the full number.  And then the next page,

16     again, where we have statistics.  The next page of the Croatian.  There.

17     And if we can turn over again to another part of the report, to the next

18     page, which is headed:

19             "Human rights violations since the 4th of August, 1995."

20             And there listed on several pages are, again, various details.

21     Some of them murders, some looting, some assaults, some discoveries of

22     bodies.

23        Q.   What happened to this information headed:

24             "Human rights violations since the 4th of August 1995"?

25        A.   I don't recall seeing this information.

Page 23452

 1        Q.   Very well.  That's fine.

 2             MR. KAY:  If we go now to P270.

 3        Q.   This is another UNCIVPOL document.

 4             MR. KAY:  That's not -- no, that's -- the document on the right

 5     on my screen isn't the right -- that's right now, yeah.  Exhibit P270.

 6        Q.   This is a record of a meeting on the 3rd of October at the

 7     Zadar police headquarters, where Mr. Benko, Mr. Nadj, yourself, and a

 8     Mr. Hissink, and others were present.  And concerned the murder of nine

 9     inhabitants in the hamlet of Varivode.

10             MR. KAY:  And if we turn to the next page.

11        Q.   We see that the details of that particular matter recorded,

12     including the police being informed on the 28th of September, and that an

13     investigation was started early in the morning of the

14     29th of September and what happened.  And Mr. Marijan Benko and

15     Mr. Ivan Nadj are responsible for the special commission and in charge

16     for the investigation.

17             What was the special commission?

18        A.   In fact, following all these various events that had escalated,

19     and once the ministry was informed of all the details, I suppose that the

20     minister and his assistants decided that they should play a more active

21     role in the investigation and that they should join the Zadar-Knin Police

22     Administration in the effort to resolve the murder.

23        Q.   And were there a series of meetings between members of the

24     Zadar-Knin Police Administration and UNCIVPOL dealing with the

25     investigation into the Varivode killings?

Page 23453

 1        A.   As far as I remember, the police was busy working on it

 2     independently.

 3        Q.   And did you pass information on to UNCIVPOL to keep them informed

 4     as that -- that joint co-operation agreement required?

 5        A.   As far as I remember, we certainly informed them of the

 6     resolution of the criminal case orally at a meeting.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we can look at 2D00728.  This is a -- it's now

 9     D1747.  Thank you.

10        Q.   This is the minutes of the meeting by UNCIVPOL with Zadar-Knin

11     police authorities, including yourself, in which details of murder cases

12     are revealed and forwarded to the Zadar regional court and criminal

13     proceedings, including the Varivode case.  And on page 2 of the English

14     we can see the special investigation team of the interior ministry

15     continues to investigate the most serious cases in Zadar-Knin area of

16     responsibility, and you were given an updated list of incidents recorded

17     by UNCIVPOL.

18             This information that you were giving out to UNCIVPOL concerning

19     the investigations and the criminal proceedings, was that information you

20     could give out to anybody?  Was that information generally revealed by

21     your police administration?

22        A.   We could not provide that sort of information to just anyone.

23        Q.   Thank you.  That's all I ask about that.

24             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there are further documents that I have

25     relating to the ongoing relationship between UNCIVPOL and the Zadar-Knin

Page 23454

 1     Police Administration concerning the Varivode case, as well as other

 2     investigations.  Rather than going through that same detail, which is

 3     self-explanatory, I propose to bar table that with the Court's approval.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  At this moment, the Chamber does not oppose such a

 6     course of action, although there may be some concerns that we might lose

 7     sight on details on these matters which can be relevant.

 8             MR. KAY:  Shall I give the documents I've got, because they've

 9     all been disclosed, and then we can exhibit them, and then the chain will

10     be there for the Court.

11             If I call up 2D00781 and seek leave to add it to the 65 ter list.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter list.

14             MR. KAY:  And, Your Honour, may I exhibit this document.  It's

15     dated the 31st of October and on the Varivode series of meetings.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

19     Exhibit D1754.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  D1754 is admitted into

21     evidence.

22             MR. KAY:  2D00782.  May I have leave to add it to the

23     65 ter exhibit list.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this going to be a long list, Mr. Kay?

25             MR. KAY:  No.

Page 23455

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's short, then we can continue.  Otherwise I

 2     suggest that you write down the numbers and that we then deal with them

 3     in a quicker way.  But you just mentioned 2D00782.

 4             MR. KAY:  2.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted, and I take that you want to tender

 8     it into evidence?

 9             MR. KAY:  Yes, thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

12     Exhibit D1755.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KAY:  And for reference purposes, the next exhibit that the

15     Court would like to keep an eye on is Exhibit P280, which is a final

16     report by UNCIVPOL on the matter.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for this guidance, Mr. Kay.

18             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

19             I'm conscious of the time, Your Honour, and I'm just seeing

20     whether I need to introduce any documents in relation to some other

21     matters which can be connected together concerning passing on of

22     information.

23             If we could have 65 ter 2D00771.

24        Q.   This is a document from the International Committee of the

25     Red Cross, and we can see handwritten on it, Mr. Cetina, it's dated

Page 23456

 1     Knin, the 7th of September.  It's sent to General Cermak.  And it

 2     concerns crimes that were referred to by the Red Cross from a lady called

 3     Carmen Burger.

 4             MR. KAY:  And if we turn to the next page of the document --

 5        Q.   We can see a list of crimes, including someone called

 6     Milica Dokic, Simon Dukic, Varivode.  And this document goes on to refer

 7     to other cases.  If you could just have a look at them, page by page.

 8             Did you receive information from General Cermak that had been

 9     referred to him by the International Committee of the Red Cross of crimes

10     that they had been referred to and were concerned about?  Did you receive

11     information from Mr. Cermak of reports that were given to him?

12        A.   As a rule, such reports did reach us.  However, it is possible

13     that I didn't see some of them, due to my presence on the grounds.

14     Still, they would have been received by the chiefs of the departments.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,

17     please.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This document becomes Exhibit D1756.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in relation to the name Simo Dukic, there

23     are internal police documents we've discovered which are a complicated

24     series of documents to go through that I would propose to bar table as

25     the story becomes self-evident and the Court has been used to receiving

Page 23457

 1     information in this way, either through witnesses or the bar table.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if it is introduced in the way bar table

 3     documents should be introduced, and you should briefly point to the

 4     relevance and briefly describe the documents.

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes.  If we could just turn now to P2649.

 6        Q.   This is a document which was sent by you to General Cermak in

 7     reply to a request of the International Red Cross organisation for

 8     submission of data on incidents that occurred in the area of Knin:

 9             "We hereby advise you we have completed the necessary checks

10     regarding each event mentioned in the ICRC letter and established the

11     following ..."

12             And then we see a response.

13             MR. KAY:  And if we can turn to the second page.

14        Q.   Again, this is a document sent by you to General Cermak.  And to

15     obtain this information that you sent to General Cermak, where would you

16     have obtained it from?

17        A.   We sent this response, because it was in relation to a request

18     from the ICRC, and that's why we sent it.  And we sent it only as

19     information.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there are --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Kay.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes, I can finish now my questioning of the witness,

24     but can I tell the Court there are other documents like this that are

25     self-evident and speak to themselves.  And what I propose is that I put

Page 23458

 1     them into the chain for the Court and bar table them, because no further

 2     purpose would be served in expending further court time on it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is what the witness could tell us in

 4     addition to what the documents already tell us.

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And this, then, would conclude your

 7     examination-in-chief?

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes, this would conclude my examination.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I will have one or two questions for the

10     witness before we adjourn.

11             Mr. Cetina, you remember that a document was shown in which it

12     was described that UNCRO had reported two bodies found in Brgud and that

13     a police car was sent, bodies were not found, and that it would be

14     further investigated the next day.  The report dates from the

15     12th of September, and the report of these bodies was also received on

16     the 12th of September, whereas then on the 13th of September, a further

17     investigation would be -- would take place.

18             Do you have any recollection of that specific incident?  Is there

19     any explanation that where UNCRO reports, on the 12th of September, that

20     two human corpses are found, that if the police sends a car over there,

21     that they do not find any bodies?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only one is that they were

23     unable to find the exact location, since the policemen were not locals.

24             MR. KAY:  Can I assist, Your Honour, because these two

25     documents -- I have two documents relevant to this within this collection

Page 23459

 1     here --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you --

 3             MR. KAY:  -- which I hope informs the Court.

 4             Can we see 2D00775.  This is an on-site investigation report

 5     compiled on 14th of September, 1995, in Brgud on finding the bodies of

 6     two unidentified women.  And there is the investigating judge and the

 7     account.

 8             Your Honour, may I make this document an exhibit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- unless Ms. Mahindaratne has --

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit D1757.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. KAY:  And to assist the Court further, 2D00772.

15             This is a document dated the 5th of October, 1995, from the crime

16     police Department of Zadar-Knin.  And it concerns an on-site

17     investigation.  And the document is signed by Mr. Kardum and gives

18     various details of cause of death, et cetera.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. KAY:  May I make this document an exhibit, please,

21     Your Honour.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This becomes Exhibit D1758.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D1758 is admitted into evidence.

Page 23460

 1             Then we adjourn.

 2             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Kay.

 4             We'll then adjourn for the day.

 5             Mr. Cetina, we'd like to see you back tomorrow, tomorrow in the

 6     afternoon, quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom.

 7             We adjourn, and we resume on --

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  My colleague reminds me, Mr. Cetina, that I should

10     instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony

11     you have given already or the testimony still to be given in the days to

12     come.

13             We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

14     29th of October, at quarter past 2.00, Courtroom III.

15                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day

17                           of October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.