Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25270

 1                           Thursday, 26 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would you

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber understand that there are a few

11     procedural matters which we'll deal with later this morning.  They're not

12     of such an urgency that we could not yet start with the witness.

13             Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

14     courtroom.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           THE WITNESS:  DAVORIN PAVLOVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Pavlovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And I'd like to remind you that the solemn

21     declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony is still binding.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to proceed?

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

25                           Examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:  [Continued]

Page 25271

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pavlovic.

 2        A.   Good morning, Defence counsel.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please approach the

 4     microphone.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come closer to the microphone,

 6     Mr. Pavlovic.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, you can for now keep the binder closed and put the

 9     statement away.  If I need to refer you to that, I will let you know.

10             We left off yesterday talking about Donji Lapac, and as the

11     Presiding Judge correctly pointed out, it would be now being west of

12     Donji Lapac on the map.  As you were in Boricevac which is outside of

13     Donji Lapac right on the state border, across from Kulen Vakuf, how long

14     did you stay in Boricevac?

15        A.   Counsel, on that day I stayed very briefly, just an hour to an

16     hour and a half, and then I went back to Gracac.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could please call up D555.

18        Q.   And Mr. Pavlovic, you can please open your binder to tab 15.  And

19     in the English version it's page 47 of 65.  And on the Croatian version

20     you'll see on the left-hand side --

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If you go to the next page, Mr. Registrar,

22     please.

23        Q.   You'll see in the Croatian version it's entry 332, which would be

24     the same entry on the Croatian version.  I don't have that currently in

25     front of me.

Page 25272

 1             Mr. Pavlovic -- Mr. Pavlovic, can you tell us what page you're

 2     on, if there's a page designation on the bottom of your document.

 3        A.   I can't see.  It says D00555 at the bottom, but I can't see what

 4     the page is.  I'm sorry, it says 95, but it's hardly legible.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That would be the Croatian page number 95 then,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   And if you'll see on the left-hand column of this document there

 8     are entries in numerical order.  For example in the English version it

 9     starts at 327 and goes to 334.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's it.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar, for

11     finding that.

12        Q.   Now, there's an entry there, 332, at 2120 hours, and that's an

13     August 7th entry, 1995.  The entry reads:

14             "Mr. Markac (D. Lapac) reports that from the north direction one

15     unit with which he has no contact is closing in on him.  ZP Gosic

16     /illegible/ was informed about this, but they haven't gotten anything to

17     do with such unit in the north.  General Markac was tasked to establish

18     contact all by himself."

19             Now, Mr. Pavlovic, are you familiar with this -- with what this

20     reference refers to?

21        A.   Yes, I am, Counsel.

22        Q.   Could you please explain to the Chamber what that is in reference

23     to and from where this report came from, the location?

24        A.   Your Honour, it was like this:  Upon our return to Gracac, we

25     received information about the further actions of the army or unknown

Page 25273

 1     units towards Lapac, and General Markac from Gracac rang up the Main

 2     Staff on the phone, because that was the only point where we did have a

 3     telephone, and he established contact through an encrypted telephone line

 4     with the Main Staff, and in my opinion he protested.  I think he talked

 5     to General Miljavac.  He had a rather heated conversation with him and

 6     said that unknown units were coming in from the direction Udbina and that

 7     he assumed that it was the 9th Guards Brigade which was in the Gospic

 8     military district, and he asked that communication be established with

 9     that unit as soon as possible and that all artillery attack on Lapac be

10     stopped immediately, and in the meantime we received information that

11     some houses had been targeted already, so he wanted to stop the firing

12     and destruction of property in Lapac.

13             I saw that General Markac was rather upset and this was unusual

14     for him.  He started shouting and asked them to stop the artillery attack

15     and fire in that part of Lapac immediately.

16        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, would it have been possible for General Markac to

17     contact the Main Staff from Donji Lapac?

18        A.   No, he couldn't do that either from Boricevac or from Donji Lapac

19     or from anywhere else.  The only point where we could make contact was at

20     Gracac.

21        Q.   Now, after the conclusion of Operation Storm in terms of the role

22     of the Special Police, there was a withdrawal to -- you were ordered to

23     go to Petrova Gora.

24        A.   Counsel, as far as I remember, on the 8th in Boricevac, we had a

25     meeting of commanders, and part of the units -- or part of the units were

Page 25274

 1     ordered to return to base.  The other units on the following day received

 2     orders to return.  In the meantime, we received information that we would

 3     be going to Petrova Gora, and I ordered some communications men to

 4     prepare for that and pull out of the area and move towards Vojnic.

 5        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, if you could please open to tab 29 of your book.

 6     That is D557.

 7             In terms of the former -- former Sectors North and South, where

 8     was Petrova Gora located?

 9        A.   Petrova Gora was located in Sector South.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Sector North.  Interpreter's correction, Sector

11     North.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

13        Q.   Thank you.  You'll see, Mr. Pavlovic, this is an order dated the

14     10th of August, 1995, from the Main Staff asking or ordering

15     General Markac to engage in mop-up operations in Petrova Gora.  You were

16     a participant in that; correct?

17        A.   Yes, Counsel.

18        Q.   How long of a time period were the Special Police in

19     Petrova Gora?

20        A.   They were in Petrova Gora -- well, I think we were there for a

21     couple of days.  Four days.

22        Q.   And then where did the units go after Petrova Gora -- the

23     Petrova Gora operation was completed?

24        A.   After that, Counsel, we returned to base.

25        Q.   What base was that?

Page 25275

 1        A.   Each to his own unit.  We returned to the Ministry of the

 2     Interior where the Special Police Sector base was and as was my own.

 3        Q.   Other than the staff office that was maintained in Gracac, could

 4     you please tell the Chamber whether or not there were any Special Police

 5     operations conducted in Sector South from August 9th to August 21st of

 6     1995.

 7        A.   At the disposal of the Gracac staff there was always a unit

 8     numbering 30 men, and they rotated, and that was under the police group

 9     of Gospic and another one, and they gathered different information, what

10     was going on in the field, where there had been contact with the enemy,

11     and they informed the Special Police Sector about activities of that

12     kind, and at the same time the sector gathered information from the

13     police administrations in the area, three police administrations, in

14     fact.  One was Zadar, one was Gospic, and the other was in Split.  So

15     information and data was gathered there about contacts and straggler

16     enemy soldiers and sabotage groups, terrorist groups.

17        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber, please, was it your experience both

18     in the areas where the Special Police were in operation during

19     Operation Storm and in other areas -- as soon as an area was liberated,

20     could you explain to the Trial Chamber who came in behind the Special

21     Police and any other military force that would have been in Sector South

22     to establish law and order?

23        A.   Your Honours, I've already said that already on the second day of

24     the operation we opened police stations in Lovinac and Gracac, and the

25     police stations, once the special units had passed by, were established

Page 25276

 1     in Donji and Gornji Lapac as well, and later on, according to their plan,

 2     they opened some more police stations and border police posts.

 3        Q.   So as far as civil control of the area, that was passed on to the

 4     civil police and the civil authorities.

 5        A.   Yes.  That's what the order was.  The role of the Special Police

 6     in this operation was to suppress the enemy forces and to advance

 7     speedily, and then the regular police entered afterwards and took over

 8     the role that they were entitled to take by law, ensuring law and order,

 9     preventing crime, issuance of documents, and everything else that the

10     regular police force does generally.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unnecessary microphones be switched

12     off in the courtroom.  Thank you.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I will make sure I turn my mike off after I

14     speak.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, I would like you to please go to -- you don't have

16     this document in your booklet.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  P1237, please, if that could be brought up.

18        Q.   And while the document is brought up on the screen, Mr. Pavlovic,

19     I'll just preview the subject matter of this set of questions.  This

20     deals with the issue of check-points and whether or not the Special

21     Police was involved in check-points.  We have in this particular

22     document, P1273 -- the English version is page 3, and the Croatian

23     version, I think it's on the second page.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One more page in the Croatian version, please.

25     There we go.

Page 25277

 1             In the middle of the Croatian version where it says

 2     "Zapovjedniku."  And in the English version if you could highlight the

 3     section that says "We entered the suburb of Gracac."

 4        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, are you familiar -- in the middle of that paragraph

 5     in Croatian where it says "Zapovjedniku," there's a sentence and I'll

 6     read it in English:

 7             "We entered the suburbs of Gracac, namely the village of Loncari,

 8     at 1400 hours on 5 August.  BPP, barrier check-points, were put in that

 9     village, and we replenished the MTS, materiel and technical equipment."

10             Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what BPP means?

11        A.   BPP is combat barrier check-points which were always established

12     at the flank of a unit in order to ensure that we're not surprised by a

13     counter-attack by the enemy forces or some other sabotage or terrorist

14     group, and these barriers or check-points are erected while the unit is

15     in the area.  As soon as the unit moves on, the -- this barrier

16     check-point is moved and follows the unit.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  I'd like to move, please, to D561,

18     which is tab 37.

19             Mr. Pavlovic, D561 is an August 21 order regarding the conduct of

20     mop-up operations.  Are you familiar with the order and the issues

21     surrounding this order from the Main Staff?

22        A.   Yes, I am, Counsel.  I am aware of this document.  I was informed

23     of it by General Markac who called us to come to the sector and

24     acquainted us with the contents of this document.

25             Let me explain.  I was the assistant commander in the Main Staff

Page 25278

 1     of the Special Police, and I didn't actually see the document, but

 2     General Markac or Mr. Sacic informed us of its contents and we acted upon

 3     it, whether organising communications or organising people to go out into

 4     an operation or whatever.

 5             As far as I remember, General Markac called us and said that he

 6     had received an order of this kind and that he had talked over the phone

 7     with the Main Staff.  I think it was with General Cervenko, who told him

 8     orally that we were to return to the area -- to the south for the mopping

 9     up operation, search and mop-up.  The terminology is search and mopping

10     up.  Well, it's the same term.  It's the same concept.

11        Q.   Could you briefly explain, Mr. Pavlovic, what the Special Police

12     did and what the purpose was of the mop-up and search operations in --

13     after August 21st of 1995.

14        A.   Counsel, the search of the terrain in a certain area -- well,

15     what we did was to deploy the special forces, and they were given the

16     task of uncovering stragglers, armed enemy soldiers, sabotage and

17     terrorist groups, mines and other technical devices, minefields, depots

18     and hidden weapons or hidden enemy soldiers such as in various caves or

19     trenches, and we had to search the waterways as well to see that they

20     hadn't left any weapons in ponds, rivers, et cetera, waterways.

21        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, in paragraphs 21 and 22 of your statement, if you

22     could please refer to those as I ask you these questions.  That's D1830.

23     You talk generally about the communication between the headquarters and

24     axis commanders -- axis commanders and communications between commanders

25     for various units.

Page 25279

 1             In the second sentence of paragraph 21:

 2             "At the staff and at the IZM --"

 3             If you can -- do you have your statement there, Mr. Pavlovic?

 4        A.   Yes, I do, Counsel.

 5        Q.   It says:

 6              "At the staff and at the IZM it was not possible to monitor the

 7     communication between the axis commanders and the subgroup commanders and

 8     personnel, members of the Special Police Units on the ground, while

 9     combat tasks were being carried out."

10             And then paragraph 22, the last sentence.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If you could scroll down on the Croatian

12     version, please.

13        Q.   The last sentence says:

14             "This way of establishing and using the communications system was

15     also implemented at the end of Operation Storm during the search of some

16     ground in the newly liberated with the aim of finding straggling

17     terrorists when the SJP joint forces were appointed for these tasks."

18             What I wanted to ask you, Mr. Pavlovic, regarding these two

19     portions of your statement, is during mop-up operations was it possible

20     for the units engaged in mop-up operations to communicate via radio or

21     any other means of communication with the staff in Gracac, and if not or

22     if yes, please explain how or why.

23        A.   Counsel, every time the unit went out into the field a mobile

24     repeater station put up in a heavy-duty vehicle went with it to enable

25     communication for that narrow area, because it was impossible to ensure

Page 25280

 1     communication between the Main Staff in Gracac and these so-called

 2     forward command posts, because the distance was greater and given the

 3     configuration of the terrain.

 4             Now, as they moved to a different area every day, it wasn't

 5     possible to ensure communication and so the commanders -- or, rather, the

 6     commander who conducted the search was in a certain locality with his

 7     unit and was able to contact the unit throughout the operation, but when

 8     he came back to the Main Staff and headquarters in the evening, he would

 9     report orally and in writing.  Sometimes it was an oral report.

10     Sometimes he would write a written report which he would hand over to

11     Mr. Markac or Mr. Sacic at headquarters in Gracac.

12        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Pavlovic.  In we could please move to

13     D739.  Just tab 39 in your book, Mr. Pavlovic.

14             This set of question -- questions relates to the freedom train

15     operation in which the Special Police participated on August 26th.

16             D739 is an order or is a document dated August 23rd, 1995, and on

17     the second page of the English -- and I think we can go to the second

18     page of the Croatian as well, please.  There's a notation there that the:

19     "ATJ MUP in coordination with the chief of operation administration of

20     GSHV, which is the Main Staff of the Croatian military, Major General

21     Vinko Vrbanac, will take over security of the most delicate part of the

22     railroad."

23             Mr. Pavlovic, were you involved with this operation regarding the

24     freedom train?

25        A.   Counsel, as far as I remember, we were not involved nor were we

Page 25281

 1     charged with communicating the route for the members of the ATJ.  With

 2     some members of the staff I was at the railway when the train was

 3     supposed to pass there, but we had a different task, and I simply

 4     happened to find myself there, but I did not take part in securing the

 5     government.

 6        Q.   The Special Police, however, was involved in securing a portion

 7     of that path; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, Counsel.

 9        Q.   If we could look at D563, which is tab 41 of your book.  And in

10     the English version we can go to page 4, please.

11             Just for reference, this is an August 25, 1995, letter from the

12     national security office staff.  If we could go to page 4 of the

13     Croatian, please.  The paragraph under RH Ministry of the Interior has a

14     discussion, and I'll read the section here:

15              "After the meeting of the security staff, the Knin 95 OA Staff

16     was formed at the level of RH MUP with Deputy Minister Zlatko Gledec at

17     its head and Smiljan Reljic, Josko Moric, Mladen Markac, Igor Bozikovic,

18     Stjepan Klasic, and the chief of the police department, Andjelko Sacic,

19     as members.

20             Now, were you aware General Markac's participation in this

21     meeting?

22        A.   Counsel, I do not remember this.

23        Q.   But you do know that General Markac was involved in planning for

24     security of the freedom train; correct?

25        A.   Counsel, as far as I know, yes.

Page 25282

 1        Q.   If we could please pull up tab D564, which is for you,

 2     Mr. Pavlovic, tab 43.

 3             D564 is a letter dated September 1st of 1995, and it's from

 4     General Norac to the Main Staff, which requests in paragraph 2 -- or in

 5     paragraph 4 -- it's the second page of the English, and I believe it's

 6     also the second page of the Croatian.

 7             The letter in general describes operations in the Gospic military

 8     district in terms of remaining enemy soldiers, among other things, and in

 9     paragraph 4 General Norac writes to the Main Staff:

10             "Since we did not conduct a detailed search in the area of

11     responsibility of the Military District Gospic, we assume that the

12     possible outlaw groups could be in the wider area of Plitvice Lakes ..."

13     and it describes where, "... and we believe it is necessary to employ

14     special MUP troops to conduct searches of that area."

15             Now, Mr. Pavlovic, were you -- did the Special Police then

16     conduct these operations in Plitvice Lakes?  Are you aware of that?

17        A.   Yes, Counsel.  In early September, I think it was around the 6th

18     of September, we sent the staff to Plitvice, and we also moved a part of

19     the special units to that area, and for several days, according to

20     certain plans, we conducted the search of the terrain, and I think that

21     we stayed there until around the 12th of September.  I remember that

22     General Markac and myself and several other members of the staff, while

23     passing through Plitvice, and going to certain places, we even came

24     across minefields which we managed to skirt at the very last moment.

25        Q.   How long of a period of time -- oh, you -- I'm sorry, you said

Page 25283

 1     that.  You were there until September 12th.

 2             After -- and Plitvice is located in Sector North?

 3        A.   Counsel, I'm really not sure where Plitvice is located, but it's

 4     at a point somewhere in the middle or between Sectors South and Sector

 5     North.  It is on the main road between Gracac and Zagreb.

 6        Q.   Now, when did the Special Police end mop-up operations in

 7     Sector South?

 8        A.   Counsel, I did not understand the question.

 9        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber when, as far as you're aware, the

10     Special Police concluded mop-up operations in Sector South, the joint

11     forces of the Special Police with which you were working.

12        A.   Your Honours, Counsel, in early October, around the 9th or the

13     10th of October, we concluded the operation of searching the terrain in

14     Sector South and returned to our base.  Further searches were conducted

15     by police administrations on the basis of the information they had, and

16     they had at their disposal their own special units.

17        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, I wanted to ask you generally regarding

18     Mr. Markac's mindset when you were around him.  Can you tell us, please,

19     what his sentiments were in dealing with non-Croats that he would

20     encounter during the course of his work with you?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

22             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. President; good morning,

23     Your Honours.

24             Perhaps it would be most straight forward to ask what Mr. Markac

25     said rather than what his mindset was.

Page 25284

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I took it that Mr. Kuzmanovic was inquiring

 2     without saying whether it was words or written document, whatever

 3     information the witness has which would for him be indicative for the

 4     mindset of Mr. Markac.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.  I guess I could be

 6     more specific.

 7        Q.   If you could please describe for the Trial Chamber the nature and

 8     level of his character and professionalism and his conduct toward others,

 9     whatever their ethnic group was, while you were in his presence and

10     working with him.

11        A.   Your Honours, I had the honour since the beginning of the war and

12     throughout the war to be together with General Markac.  I came to know

13     him quite well.  He's a highly moral person, without any prejudice.  He's

14     a very socially sensitive person who took equal care of the special units

15     and other members of the Ministry of the Interior, as well as of the

16     civilians we came across in the occupied territory whom he always tried

17     to take care of.

18             Several times I had the opportunity to see when he ordered

19     Mr. Bolje [phoen] to provide water, food, and cigarettes to them, and

20     cigarettes were something that was highly estimated in the area.

21             On several occasions I was in direct conflict with General Markac

22     when he sent units of greater force than necessary to pull out our

23     wounded, because if we received any information on a wounded or killed

24     member of the Special Police, he did everything he could to provide

25     assistance to such members as soon as possible.  And once we were this

Page 25285

 1     conflict because he sent a helicopter deep into enemy territory where we

 2     had a wounded member.  I explained to him that we could lose the

 3     helicopter.  However, insisted that a helicopter be sent there anyway

 4     because this member of the special forces had been shot in the belly and

 5     his intestines were spilling out and so on.  So we did send a helicopter.

 6     The helicopter was shot by enemy soldiers, but it managed to pull out

 7     this wounded man, but as a consequence we were left without the

 8     helicopter for a month, and we had to supply our men on Velebit on

 9     horseback or on foot rather than by helicopter.

10             So he is a man who even shed tears on several occasions when he

11     met mothers of his co-soldiers who had been killed.  As I said, he was a

12     highly moral person.  He honoured all laws, General Markac did.

13             He and myself had spent is a lot of time in the police before the

14     war.  We were used to the moral code, to respect the laws of the former

15     republic of Croatia, which was a part of the former Yugoslavia, as well

16     as the laws of the Republic of Croatia.

17        Q.   Before the war began, General Markac was a -- involved with the

18     police; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, he was working in the police

20     administration in Zagreb.  He was the former Secretariat of the Interior

21     ministry for Zagreb.

22        Q.   Could you describe for the Chamber what discussions, warnings, or

23     instructions were given with regard to the treatment of combatants, enemy

24     combatants, by General Markac.

25        A.   As I said yesterday, General Markac and Mr. Sacic always briefed

Page 25286

 1     us about the area where we had to operate, how we would do that, who

 2     would take part in the operations.  Combat operations and tasks were

 3     always described.  There were never political speeches given or anything

 4     of the kind.  Honouring international conventions, treaties, and the laws

 5     of the Republic of Croatia was always stressed.  Yesterday, I already

 6     said that we had orders that in case of taking prisoner of enemy soldiers

 7     we should disarm such persons, search them, and call on the regular

 8     police to take over them.  And as for civilians, our duty was to take

 9     care of them, give them water, and also call on the regular police which

10     would then call the civilian protection, which would protect the

11     civilians.  And the orders that we received at meetings I would forward

12     to my own personnel in the Communications Unit so that they would know

13     how to conduct themselves in such situations.

14        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, I don't have any further questions.  Thank you very

15     much.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

18             Mr. Kehoe.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.  Very briefly, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be cross-examined, Mr. Pavlovic, by

21     Mr. Kehoe.  Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pavlovic.  I just want to clarify one issue

24     with you.  When you were talking about moving into the Donji Lapac area

25     that you reference at paragraph 17 of your statement, D1830, and also

Page 25287

 1     talk about in the order of D552, am I correct in saying that when you

 2     were talking about moving into Donji Lapac and being in Donji Lapac there

 3     was no troops from the Split Military District in the Donji Lapac area?

 4     Isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Good morning, Counsel.  Yes, that is correct, because we did not

 6     see any soldiers from the Split Military District at all but, rather, as

 7     I was entering Lapac I heard on the radio communication that they had

 8     linked up in Otric with the soldiers from the Split Military District,

 9     and I didn't see them in Lapac on that day or on the next day in this

10     area.

11        Q.   Thank you very much, sir.

12             MR. KEHOE:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

14             Mr. Kay.

15             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I have no questions.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, are you ready to cross-examine

17     Mr. Pavlovic?

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just one second.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pavlovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

20     Mr. Waespi.  Mr. Waespi is counsel for the Prosecution.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pavlovic.

23        A.   Good morning, Prosecutor.

24        Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the person who --

25     the persons who interviewed you during the interview process with the

Page 25288

 1     Defence of Mr. Markac.  Can you look at the front page of your witness

 2     statement, which is D1830.

 3             We see that you're interviewed by Djurica Franjo and Anto Soljic.

 4     Now, let me first ask about Mr. Djurica Franjo.  Did you know him at the

 5     time you met with him for the interview?

 6        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I have known Mr. Djurica Franjo for a long time.

 7     He was the chief of the police sector, and he was my colleague as I was

 8     the chief of the operative equipment sector.

 9        Q.   And did you meet with him during Operation Storm?

10        A.   Yes, Prosecutor.  As my sector was responsible for the

11     communications system of the Special Police, my sector was also

12     responsible for the communications system of the regular police and

13     Criminal Investigation Police.  So we were always together with whoever

14     was on the ground.  And as the regular police followed Special Police,

15     some of the communications personnel established communications systems

16     for the duty operations of regular police as was possible on the ground,

17     and I coordinated these activities with Mr. Moric and Mr. Franjo Djurica.

18        Q.   And in relation to Mr. Anto Soljic, I think yesterday you

19     mentioned his name, that at one time you went with him on foot onto the

20     forward command post during Operation Storm or just before Operation

21     Storm was launched.

22        A.   That's correct, Prosecutor.  Mr. Soljic as the chief of the

23     internal control department, together with Mr. Djurica and myself, on the

24     night before the operation, on the 3rd of August at night, we came to the

25     forward command post Veliki Golic.

Page 25289

 1        Q.   Since when did you know that these two gentlemen were working as

 2     investigators or interviewers for the Markac Defence?

 3        A.   I don't know exactly in terms of time, but I know that from the

 4     moment when the Defence team of General Markac was constituted I learned

 5     that three of my colleagues were there.  One was Mr. Soljic.  Another was

 6     Mr. Djurica, and the third one was Mr. Kranj [as interpreted].

 7        Q.   What was Mr. Kranj's role during Operation Storm?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I said Mr. Kralj.  I did not see them in the

 9     area, and I do not know anything about his role during the

10     Operation Storm.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  Let me move on to your function during

12     Operation Storm.  Now, I understand that you were the chief of Operative

13     Equipment Sector.  That's, I think, what I picked up from your witness

14     statement.  Can you confirm that?

15        A.   Yes, Prosecutor.  It was the Operative Equipment Sector.  It

16     included communications, telecommunications, transport, technology,

17     cryptographic data protection, vehicles including special equipment for

18     police and Special Police, and including weapons and technical protection

19     means.

20        Q.   In 1995 did you have a rank?

21        A.   I was the Chief Inspector of the interior ministry, and that was

22     the highest rank that a policeman can have in the interior ministry, and

23     I received it by a decree of the President Franjo Tudjman.  I was given

24     the rank of reserve colonel.

25        Q.   You told us yesterday that there were 60 people under your

Page 25290

 1     command during Operation Storm or working for you, and you explained

 2     there were mostly Croats, but there were also Serbs and others

 3     ethnicities.  Were there officers and NCOs or just soldiers?

 4        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, employees of the Operative Equipment Sector were

 5     employees of the interior ministry who had certain titles of the interior

 6     ministry, so they did not have any military ranks, but they had police

 7     ranks.

 8        Q.   But were they structured in a certain sense or were you in

 9     command of all the 60 people together or was there an intermediate level?

10        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, there were several levels.  I had an

11     assistant for communications.  That was Mr. Bradovski who was the

12     communications chief in my sector.  Below him he had the heads of

13     departments.  We had three departments in the structure.  We had the

14     department of radio communications, the department of communications, and

15     the department shortwave communications, and each department had its own

16     commander so that I did not directly command everyone, but I had to

17     transfer the command to the chief of communications and then he would

18     forward it to these three heads of departments.

19        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  To whom did you report?

20        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, for the Special Police affairs, I was responsible

21     to General Markac.  For the regular police business I was responsible to

22     Mr. Moric.  I personally, as sector head, was responsible to the Deputy

23     Minister of the Interior, Mr. Gledec, according to hierarchy, as I did

24     not have an assistant minister above me, then I was directly responsible

25     to the deputy or, rather, to the minister of the interior himself.

Page 25291

 1        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 of your witness statement you describe

 2     various members of the command staff of General Markac, and you mention,

 3     for instance, Mr. Sacic, the Chief of Operations, you mention the

 4     assistant commander for intelligence.  What was his name, the assistant

 5     commander of intelligence that worked under General Markac at that time?

 6        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that was the chief of internal control,

 7     Mr. Soljic.

 8        Q.   And then the commander of the reserve force, what was his name?

 9        A.   Well, the reserve control was led by Mr. Maduna, and he

10     co-operated with the department for -- the reserve force the Ministry of

11     the Interior because the Special Police reserve force could only be

12     called up by the reserve department of the Ministry of the Interior,

13     Mr. Maduna coordinated all that.  Now, whether there was anyone else

14     except Mr. Maduna, I really can't remember just now.

15        Q.   You mentioned a liaison officer for the HV.  Do you remember the

16     name of that person?

17        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't.

18        Q.   The name of the artillery commander?

19        A.   That was Mr. Turkalj.

20        Q.   And were you as chief of Operative Equipment Sector also part of

21     that command staff of General Markac?

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

23        Q.   Very briefly, how were you organised?  How was the command staff

24     of General Markac organised?  Did you meet regularly before

25     Operation Storm and during Operation Storm?

Page 25292

 1        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, in principle I learnt about individual tasks and

 2     assignments before the other commanders were called to the headquarters

 3     to be briefed because I had to plan the communications system, which was

 4     a rather complex one.  So I had the opportunity of meeting with

 5     Mr. Markac and Mr. Sacic before the operation and planned together with

 6     them.  They planned their forces.  I planned the communications system,

 7     and then we linked up, compiled documentation and so on and so forth, and

 8     after that all the commanders would have a meeting all together at

 9     headquarters where either General Markac or Mr. Sacic would inform all of

10     us of the details of the operation itself, how it would take place, which

11     commanders and which units would take what directions and axis and who

12     would be the commander of each individual axis or the individual groups

13     and subgroups.

14        Q.   After Operation Storm has commenced, was there a similar meeting

15     or series of meetings when General Markac would call all the members of

16     his command staff together and discuss where you were at that time?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I said yesterday that on the 31st of July we had

18     a meeting of commanders in Stari Grad, which is --

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   -- near --

21        Q.   Sorry to cut you off.  I'm interested in after the Operation

22     Storm started.  So on the 5th of August, 6th of August, 7th of August,

23     did you have a joint meeting again?

24        A.   Yes, we did, Mr. Prosecutor.  We did have meetings of that kind,

25     and they would be in the evening at the headquarters in Gracac where we

Page 25293

 1     were -- there would be a briefing, a short briefing telling us what

 2     happened that day and our assignments for the following day.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  Let me go on to something you mentioned

 4     today but also yesterday about the issue of how to treat civilians, and I

 5     quote you from yesterday at page 25248.  You said, when asked about

 6     instructions you received:

 7             "If we encountered civilians, those civilians had to be sent to

 8     the basic police force.  They were to report to the police in order to

 9     ensure their documents and accommodation, food, and water."

10             Was that an instruction you had received from Mr. Sacic on the

11     31st July?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move to the Gracac headquarter.  I think you

14     testified yesterday that it was the -- located at the municipal building

15     in -- in Gracac; is that correct?

16        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  It was in the Municipal Court building.

17        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  Now, from when to when was it

18     operational?

19        A.   The staff in Gracac was established on the 5th in the afternoon,

20     the 5th of August, that is, in the afternoon, and it was in that location

21     until the beginning of October.  I think it was until the 9th or 10th of

22     October of that same year, unless I'm mistaken.

23        Q.   And how was it staffed?  How many people worked there?  And if it

24     changed over time, please let us know.

25        A.   Well, at the beginning there were a lot of people in the

Page 25294

 1     facility.  There were the communications employees until the

 2     communications system had been set up properly.  Then there was

 3     General Markac, Mr. Sacic, the internal control people led by Mr. Soljic.

 4     I was there.  So quite a lot of people.  And later on, after the

 5     operation, that is to say sometime around the 9th, we were there.  There

 6     was always a duty officer 'round the clock.  And at the beginning, in the

 7     first month or so, there was also a communications man for maintenance or

 8     maintaining the communications system generally.

 9        Q.   You also said, I think in your witness statement, paragraph 12,

10     that once the Gracac headquarter was established that the previous two

11     command posts in Seline and on Mount Velebit were dissolved.

12        A.   As far as I remember, the Veliki Golic forward command post was

13     dissolved straight away.  Now, I don't remember whether the same thing

14     happened with the headquarters in Seline, whether it was on that day or

15     another day, but I do know that the members of the staff relocated to

16     Gracac the next day at around noon.

17        Q.   Yes.  I think we have seen a document which is now D1831 which

18     you have been shown yesterday, dated 9th of August, which was issued in

19     Celine.  At least that's what it says on the top.  Is that consistent

20     with your recollection?

21        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, sometimes in the heading it said Gracac, other

22     times it said Seline.  Now, since in Seline the communication was more

23     secure, whether we had to go to Seline or Gracac at that point in time I

24     really can't remember, but Seline, anyway, was secure communication, and

25     in Gracac we came across communications that had been cut off, and we

Page 25295

 1     needed two or three days to establish fixed communication lines, and

 2     during that time we used telephones with the help of radio devices and

 3     not wire connections, which were not secure.  So maybe people went to

 4     Seline for a secure line in order to convey a document of this kind.  So

 5     I really don't remember where we sent this particular document out from.

 6        Q.   If you recall, how long were you still capable of using Seline as

 7     an additional back-up for communications?

 8        A.   For about five or six days.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  Let's move on to the appearance of

10     Mr. Jarnjak.  You mentioned him a couple of times.  In your witness

11     statement, you state in the last sentence that:

12             "The minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, came to Gracac and

13     held a meeting with members of the staff and officially opened the newly

14     established Gracac police station, because the conditions had been

15     created for regular police members to maintain public law and order."

16             Now, that was, I understand, on the 5th of August, in the

17     evening, that Mr. Jarnjak came.  Do you recall that?

18        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  Mr. Jarnjak, before that, came to a place

19     called Lovinac where we opened a police station in the manner in which I

20     have described.  We put up a plaque saying "Police Station" on a

21     destroyed building, on the only chimney that remained standing on that

22     building, and after that Mr. Jarnjak set out towards Gracac.  We greeted

23     him there, and the staff meeting was held in the hallway of the

24     Municipal Court where all the commanders were rallied together and the

25     minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, arrived.  He greeted each of the

Page 25296

 1     members and congratulated us on a successful operation.  After that,

 2     Mr. Jarnjak left and went to the former police station, the police

 3     station that wasn't destroyed during the war or during the liberation

 4     operation, and he open the police station once again of the Republic of

 5     Croatia there.

 6        Q.   But that wasn't an easy transition between the military and the

 7     civilian authorities.  Can you confirm that?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, well, these police echelons took over their

 9     assignments.  Whether it was an easy or difficult task I can't really

10     say.  I wasn't informed of that, because the person in charge was the

11     assistant minister, Mr. Moric, and the chief of the sector, Mr. Franjo

12     Djurica who then dealt with those affairs.

13        Q.   So are you saying that you can't really state with any degree of

14     certainty that the conditions had been created for regular police members

15     to maintain public law and order?  That's not something that you would be

16     familiar with?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I was at the Special Police headquarters all the

18     time after all, and we were advancing towards the border of the Republic

19     of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, towards Gornji Vakuf.  So I really

20     don't know whether the situation was difficult or not, whether it was

21     difficult to set up regular police affairs, but I do know that in that

22     area there were no more enemy forces to any great degree, and there was

23     no reason why regular police business shouldn't be started.

24        Q.   Let me show you a document.

25             MR. WAESPI:  This is, Mr. President, P614.

Page 25297

 1        Q.   It's a report, an analysis of the preparation of Operation Storm,

 2     dated 26th of November, 2001.  And I'd like to show you in English a

 3     passage on page 18.  And in Croatian, that's for you, Mr. Pavlovic, page

 4     22.

 5             And here on the heeding, first we have "good experiences,"

 6     discusses communications.  That's your area.  And then we have in the

 7     middle of the English page "Negative experiences and shortcomings."  And

 8     the last paragraph under negative experiences reads as follows:

 9             "After some places had been liberated (Gracac, Bruvno,

10     Donji Lapac) major problems arose as regards organising life and

11     accommodation for people in them, since we had not established contact

12     with the civilian organs of authorities in those areas in good time."

13             Were you aware of those major problems in liaising with the

14     civilian organs of authorities?

15        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor, I wasn't.  I didn't know that there were such

16     problems.  I wasn't an immediate participant in all this.  But I do

17     remember that already on the second day, so if we were in Gracac one day

18     then on the second day representatives of the civilian authorities turned

19     up, the person in charge for Gracac, and representatives of civilian

20     protection.  They came to our headquarters, and we talked to them about

21     taking on the civilian affairs and seeing that everything ran smoothing

22     in Gracac.

23             As for the other towns, I have no detailed information about

24     them.  All I do know is that we had certain difficulties in certain

25     areas, such as Donji Lapac, where we established a police station with

Page 25298

 1     very few means of communication, because we weren't able to set up the

 2     telephone lines with that particular police station.  All that was used

 3     was radio communication in that area, so that when something needed to be

 4     conveyed, a written message or a conversation with someone or whatever,

 5     they either had to go to Gracac or they had to drive off to some higher

 6     elevation in order to establish radio communication with the particular

 7     police station they wanted to reach.  So there were difficulties in

 8     respect of securing communication, electricity in the area, things like

 9     that.  We used generators, as I've already said, quite a bit, so there

10     were difficulties of that nature, but that was no reason for the tasks of

11     the civilian authorities to be set up within those restricted conditions.

12        Q.   But going back to the quote in this document, you were not aware,

13     I think you said that, of these problems, major problems, regards

14     organising life and accommodation because contact wasn't established in

15     good time between the relevant authorities.  That's -- you're saying

16     you're not aware of any of these problems?

17        A.   That's right, Mr. Prosecutor.  I didn't know of all the problems

18     that existed surrounding the establishment of civilian -- the civilian

19     authorities.  I wasn't informed of that.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  Let's move into the time you entered

21     Gracac, and you described yesterday the entry of the Special Police.

22     Now, I'm interested in your personally.  When did you personally enter

23     Gracac, if you recall, in terms of time but also in relation to the first

24     combat, or whatever you want to call them, the first units or members of

25     units of the Special Police that entered Gracac?  How far behind them

Page 25299

 1     were you, or were you with the first ones to enter Gracac on the 5th of

 2     August?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, no, I wasn't among the first to enter Gracac.  In

 4     the meantime, when I left Seline I went to Sveti Rok to Lovinac where I

 5     stayed briefly until a police station had been officially opened, and

 6     after that I went towards Sveti Rok and across Ricice village towards

 7     Gracac.  I would say that I spent two or three hours on my journey and

 8     that I arrived two or three hours after the first people who entered

 9     Gracac.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic.  Now, you were asked yesterday about

11     these so-called abandoned vehicles.  Now you said on page 25254, and I

12     quote you:

13             "Pursuant to the order all vehicles and agriculture machinery

14     should be taken to a collection point which had been predetermined."

15             Who's order was that to take all these vehicles to a collection

16     point?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember who issued that order or those

18     instructions, but I know that it was the civilian protection that was in

19     charge of that kind of thing and designated the various collection

20     points.  I remember that there was talk at headquarters in Gracac,

21     discussions with the commanders, that -- well, I'm not sure whether from

22     General Markac or Mr. Sacic, I think it was General Markac.  We heard

23     that all vehicles, transportation vehicles and agricultural machinery

24     should be handed over at collection points of that kind and that they

25     should be deposited there until they decided what was to be done with --

Page 25300

 1     with them.

 2             But let me tell you, it was a very small number of vehicles, and

 3     they were either out of order, technically, or had no fuel, and basically

 4     they were old vehicles such as the Stojadin, Lada, the caravan-type

 5     vehicle.  We didn't find any luxury cars there at all.

 6        Q.   Do you recall when the order was -- or these instructions were

 7     given?

 8        A.   I don't remember when exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, but I think it was

 9     on that same evening of the 5th when we were in Gracac.  I think we

10     mentioned that these should be removed because some of these vehicles

11     were left on the road and obstructed communications.

12        Q.   And to whom was the order addressed?  You mentioned civilian

13     protection.  Was it addressed to civilian protection or to somebody else?

14        A.   The order was given to the commanders of the special units, and

15     for them to pass the order on to their units, telling them that such

16     vehicles and machinery should be handed over to the civilian protection

17     people.

18        Q.   And where was the collection point?

19        A.   I don't know, Mr. Prosecutor.

20        Q.   These civilian protection people, when did they arrive, or were

21     they in Gracac already when you arrived?

22        A.   Their representatives, as I've already said, Mr. Prosecutor,

23     arrived on the 6th in Gracac, but I don't remember when their units

24     actually followed them into Gracac, because at that time I was already

25     going towards Donji Lapac and Boricevci.

Page 25301

 1        Q.   Do you know how they looked like, these civilian protection

 2     people?  Did they have uniforms?  Were they in civilian outfits?

 3        A.   The civilian protection had its own working uniforms, and they

 4     had insignia designating them as being members of the civilian protection

 5     force.

 6        Q.   Were similar orders or instructions given in relation to these

 7     vehicles in relation to other towns or villages, as far as you remember?

 8        A.   The same order applied wherever we moved around, that all the

 9     vehicles should be removed from the roads and left at the appropriate

10     locations so that they could be collected up and then later on they would

11     decide what to do with that property.

12             Now, according to regulations of the Republic of Croatia, you

13     cannot register a vehicle without the necessary papers proving purchase

14     or whatever, and so we were told that vehicles couldn't be taken into a

15     unit either because it wouldn't be possible to register them.  And I know

16     that we couldn't register a vehicle of that kind, and then the suggestion

17     made was that no such vehicle should be taken into any units, but they

18     should be left and collected up by the civilian authorities in due

19     course.

20        Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Kuzmanovic made reference to photos before the

21     Trial Chamber, and I think he mentioned jump-starting a vehicle.  Let me

22     show you one of these photographs.

23             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, this is P324.  And I'd like to go to

24     the second of the photos.  The first one is somebody loading an item onto

25     a truck, and the second one is this one.

Page 25302

 1        Q.   Now, first of all, Mr. Pavlovic, have you seen this photograph

 2     before?

 3        A.   No, I haven't, Mr. Prosecutor.

 4        Q.   Now, do you recognise the soldier, uniformed person, on this

 5     picture?

 6        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.

 7        Q.   But can you confirm that he's a member of the Special Police?

 8        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, judging by the insignia on his left arm.

 9        Q.   And I can tell you that this picture, photograph, was taken on

10     the 8th of August in Gracac.  Were you in Gracac on the 8th of August?

11        A.   On the 8th of August, in the afternoon, I was at a meeting in

12     Boricevci where enemy artillery, that is to say tanks, fired at us, and I

13     remember that I was on that day at the border with Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina.

15        Q.   So you are not in a position to tell the Trial Chamber what the

16     motivation of this soldier could be in jump-starting this car.

17        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  There could be a number of reasons, that he

18     received an order to remove it, and as most probably there were no keys

19     available he tried to start in a way that was possible.  And as we can

20     see, and as I said, the car is I believe a Lada or something similar, so

21     it's not a luxury car.  It was left there either because it was in

22     disrepair or because there were no papers for it, but I cannot see from

23     the photo what could be the reason for the person doing that.

24        Q.   And do you agree with me that it does not appear that this car

25     was in any way interfering, you know, with communications or with

Page 25303

 1     traffic?  It looks like it's on a parking lot or whatever just in front

 2     of a house.

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you are supposing now, just as I can suppose.  I

 4     don't know what was the reason why he was doing this.  Maybe he had

 5     received an order that this car should be removed to the dump.

 6        Q.   And what -- why would that be the job of the elite unit Special

 7     Police to remove cars like that?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, it is hard for me to say what member this was,

 9     whether he was the member of the relevant police administration which

10     remained in the area after the 8th of August or some other unit.  I

11     cannot comment on what was -- what exactly was happening there just on

12     the basis of this photograph.

13        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could move to the next photograph.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, could I seek some clarification.

16             These places where these vehicles had to be taken, who

17     predetermined where these places were?  Who decided where -- where these

18     vehicles had to be taken?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know that,

20     but I suppose that the civilian protection had its plan about the places

21     where the vehicles would be taken and then agreed on these places with

22     the regular police.

23             As far as I can remember, in Gracac it was a farm behind the

24     school, but I'm not certain, and I cannot guarantee that because I wasn't

25     interested in that part of our work.  I wasn't involved in that, so I

Page 25304

 1     didn't really pay much attention to such issues.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  How would -- how would your people know where to

 3     take them?  Civilian authority was already there to determine where these

 4     vehicles had to be taken?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I said, I was the

 6     assistant commander for operative duties, and those under my command who

 7     were in the area were on the move all the time.  They did not stay

 8     behind, and they could not receive such tasks to move or remove abandoned

 9     vehicles from the roads.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But isn't it true that your testimony yesterday said

11     that that's what you had to do and that they had to be taken to

12     predetermined places?  Now you're telling us more or less that you

13     were -- that this was --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but I didn't say

15     that I had to do that or my people but that this was one of the task of

16     the Special Police members, that they should remove certain vehicles from

17     the road so that they would not obstruct the advance and passing of our

18     units and our transportation equipment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You said:

20             "Those under my commander who were in the area, who were on the

21     move all the time, they did not stay behind, and they could not receive

22     such tasks to move or removed abandoned vehicles from the road."

23             Yesterday you said that that's what you had to do in order to --

24     to avoid that communications would be -- would be obstructed.  And then

25     you told us and, well, where they had to be taken, that it was

Page 25305

 1     predetermined, and it now seems that you're not fully familiar with --

 2     and you said -- earlier I asked where it was and you said, "I don't

 3     know."  A minute later you said, "I think it was a farm behind a school."

 4     What made you believe that it was a farm behind a school?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a lot of time has

 6     passed since then.  Sometimes I see some images in my recollection when I

 7     try to prove the truth, but I said that I could not say with certainty.

 8     It seems to me that I remember that it could have been there, but at the

 9     same time I cannot really assert that that was the place.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is that image a place that you've seen cars

11     there, or is that image anything else?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the images of such cars,

13     because I remember that in several spots we had to circle such vehicles,

14     because sometimes they obstructed more than half of the road.  And I

15     remember that the bonnets were sometimes up, and I just have in my mind

16     these images of those abandoned vehicles.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but your images came up upon a question of

18     where they had to be placed.  I was talking about the farm behind the

19     school, and then you say sometimes images come up.  Now that seems to be

20     a different image from the image you are telling us about now which is in

21     line with your earlier testimony, that they had to be removed, but again,

22     my question was focused on the predetermined place where they had to be

23     taken.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when I talked about

25     these vehicles and when they were removed, I was talking about the very

Page 25306

 1     short time after the operation only, but as we spent more time in Gracac

 2     over this longer period, the information was collected, that is to say,

 3     what I learned about this.  So I didn't know on the first or the second

 4     day where such a place would be or even that it existed, but then later

 5     on I was informed about that, and then I tried to explain the procedure

 6     that was conducted on these later days.  I did not expressly say that

 7     this took place immediately on the 5th or 6th of August of that year.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you then at that later stage see these

 9     places where these cars were deposited?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  In general, I

11     passed most of my time either at the staff or I had to tour certain

12     areas.  I didn't walk around much, but during the conversation at the

13     headquarters with commanders I would learn some of these details.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Talking about the procedures, did you at that

15     time learn who predetermined the places where these cars had to be

16     deposited?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but I said that I believe that

18     civilian protection units determined these places in agreement with

19     regular police.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Last question talking about images.  When you

21     were interviewed, was the photo which is now on your screen, was that

22     shown to you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Waespi.

25     It's time for the break.  We'll have a break, and we will resume --

Page 25307

 1     perhaps I should say you can resume at five minutes past 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Having urged the parties to conclude today, if

 5     possible, you will understand that it was really an urgent matter which

 6     kept me for such a long time out of this courtroom.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think I'll be done

 9     within half an hour.

10        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, you mentioned in your witness statement at

11     paragraph 10 that you were with General Markac during most of

12     Operation Storm, attended all the meetings before significant operative

13     actions and actions to search the terrain.

14             Now, were you aware that General Markac met with the chiefs of

15     the police administrations and police coordinators to try and resolve

16     some of the problems that cropped up in the aftermath of Operation Storm?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't remember such details.

18        Q.   That's not something General Markac would have briefed you during

19     the evening meetings of the command staff?

20        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  As far as I remember, this was not

21     mentioned.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Markac [sic].  Let's go to Donji Lapac, the entry

23     of the Special Police and yourself.  When did you enter yourself?  And

24     again I mean you personally.  When did you enter Donji Lapac?

25        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I remember, it was sometime around 15

Page 25308

 1     or 1530 hours.

 2        Q.   And that's on the 7th of August?

 3        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

 4        Q.   And do you remember how far behind the first elements of the

 5     Special Police you were?

 6        A.   I do not understand your question exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, but I

 7     will try to explain.

 8             In front of us the infantry advanced, and we were in a convoy of

 9     vehicles that was continuing its movement immediately after them.  So

10     after the infantry, the convoy of vehicles advanced behind it.

11        Q.   Now, in your witness statement you mention in paragraph 17, the

12     second sentence, that in Donji Lapac you found out that the Serbs had

13     torched some buildings in the centre of town.  Now, how did you find out

14     that?

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, on arrival to the centre of the town where the

16     police station was, I noticed that the police station was hit by a shell

17     directly and that the building behind it was on fire, as was another

18     building for which I heard was the building of the hotel.  I do not

19     remember, but somebody told me that the Serbs had torched one of these

20     buildings during their withdrawal.  I don't who, but I remember that

21     someone on the spot told me that.  I could not ascertain whether that was

22     the truth or not, but this is why I said in my statement that I remember

23     that.

24        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  You testified yesterday that the majority of

25     the Special Police then went on towards Boricevci and other elements

Page 25309

 1     stayed behind, and the elements that stayed behind were logistics, some

 2     of your communications elements, and Commander Janic and his unit; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  When I left Lapac, members of the Communications Unit

 5     remained there, as well as members of logistics and Janic with some of

 6     his soldiers.  And then later on in the communications that I listened

 7     to, because I was listening to communication all the time, anything that

 8     I could reach and anything that I could hear, I heard that he received an

 9     order to remove his units from the town to border areas, that he should

10     take a position, and that his unit should have some rest outside of the

11     town of Donji Lapac.

12        Q.   Is that what you referred to yesterday as being on holiday in --

13     in Donji Lapac?  At least the interpretation we received yesterday.

14        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  They were not involved in further activities

15     in the direction of the border with Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is to

16     say Kulen Vakuf, but they were having some rest.  It was not holiday, it

17     was a short rest, because for two or two and a half or three days we were

18     practically on the move all the time.  It was just a deserved rest so

19     that they would gather some strength for further activities.

20        Q.   Yes.  The comment of yesterday was at page 25266:

21             "Units of the Special Police, you were on holiday in Lapac."

22             That's what you just referred to a second ago?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that what she said

24     yesterday she added by saying on furlough as well.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not on holiday.  It was

Page 25310

 1     just a confusion.  I don't think the document says that anywhere.  It was

 2     only on the 8th that we started pulling out the units and sending them to

 3     base for real rest.  So it was beginning on the 8th that the units were

 4     being pulled out of combat activities.  That is the 8th of August that I

 5     have in mind.

 6             MR. WAESPI:

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you continue in your witness statement to say

 8     that you spent a short time with General Markac in Donji Lapac.  How long

 9     did you stay in Donji Lapac on that afternoon of the 7th of August?

10        A.   As far as I remember, I think that I stayed for about two hours

11     in Donji Lapac, or thereabouts.

12        Q.   And then you left the city and came back the next day; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  The next day I returned, because the

15     establishment of the police station or regular police began, so I went

16     there for an agreement about the duties that had to be discharged so that

17     at least the radio communications would start functioning in the area and

18     that we could agree on the way in which we would secure further

19     communication so that the police station could begin to operate.

20        Q.   Now, in terms of exact timing, do you recall when you left

21     Donji Lapac on the 7th?  I quote from your transcript of yesterday.

22     That's 25262 where you say:

23             "I myself, towards afternoon, I can't remember the exact time,

24     but between 2.00 and 3.00 p.m., I was still in the area and that's when

25     the shelling started from -- coming from an unknown direction or, rather,

Page 25311

 1     from unknown units, and so I left Lapac immediately after that."

 2             So approximately when did you leave Lapac that afternoon?

 3        A.   In terms of time, Mr. Prosecutor, I cannot say exactly how long

 4     it took, but I think it could have been around 17 hours.

 5        Q.   So you were not around then when members of the 118th Home Guard

 6     Regiment and the 9th Guards Brigade and maybe other units entered

 7     Donji Lapac at around 7.00 or 7.30 on the 7th of August?

 8        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not see when they entered Donji Lapac,

 9     but by monitoring the communications system, I simply learned that they

10     had entered Donji Lapac.

11        Q.   And you also don't know what happened that night, the night of

12     the 7th and 8th of August in Donji Lapac?

13        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  I didn't see myself what happened, but by

14     listening to radio communications I heard what was happening in the area,

15     because Commander Janic called several times on the radio communications

16     system and reported about what was happening and what was the scope of

17     destruction in the area after the entry of the 118th Home Guard Regiment.

18        Q.   So you have no personal knowledge from your own observations on

19     who would have set fire on the houses, who the perpetrators would be, and

20     so on?

21        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not see any of that personally, and

22     therefore I cannot assert something that I did not see.  I know what I

23     heard, but I didn't see for myself who torched the houses, nor was I

24     present in Donji Lapac at the time.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic, for answering these questions.  I don't

Page 25312

 1     have any further.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

 3             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just have two

 5     questions in redirect.  First -- well, two topics.  The first if we could

 6     please pull up D504.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

 8        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic, and this concerns Minister Jarnjak's appearance at

 9     Gracac on August 5 of 1995.  D504 is a transcript and a short video of

10     that event.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry, 507.  I apologise.  D507.  My error.

12     There we go.

13        Q.   The transcript here from the reporter in this HTV video-clip

14     shows that -- it states the reporter speaking:

15             "This morning at around 11.00 special units of the Ministry of

16     the Interior entered Gracac.  The Minister of the Interior Ivan Jarnjak

17     visited his boys."

18             Do you recall this visit at -- being after 11.00 on August 5th,

19     1995?

20        A.   Minister Jarnjak did not come there at 11.00.  This is wrongly

21     written, Counsel.  The minister got there in the afternoon, and he came

22     to visit us at the Municipal Court in Gracac.

23        Q.   Maybe you missed -- maybe my question wasn't stated clearly or it

24     was misinterpreted.  The transcript here of this video clip says:

25              "This morning at around 11.00 the special units of the Ministry

Page 25313

 1     of the Interior entered Gracac."

 2             My question to you was:  Minister Jarnjak then came into Gracac

 3     after 11.00, meaning after the special forces arrived; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, Counsel.  He got there in the afternoon, as I said.

 5        Q.   Why don't we play the clip.  It's only a few seconds long.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] This morning at around 11.00 the

 8     special units of the Ministry of the Interior entered Gracac.  The

 9     minister of the interior, Ivan Jarnjak, visited his boys.  The chief of

10     the Zadar-Knin police administration, Ivica Setina, set up a sign at the

11     police station building with the words: 'Police Administration Knin,

12     Police Station Gracac.'

13             "There you go, gentlemen.  Now let Rukavina come.

14             "It's not hanging right.  Fix it a little bit.

15             "Now come here, first the chief.

16             "This is the first police station in the newly liberated area.

17     Good luck.  So it be.

18             "The deputy commander, as the commander has not yet arrived, good

19     luck to you.  Keep the law and order as it has always been in Croatia,

20     according to the law and order.  Secure the law and order, protect the

21     property and everything else.  Good luck and take care."

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

23        Q.   Now, there's no time noted on this video, but you can see it's

24     during the daylight hours that this occurred; correct?

25        A.   Yes, Counsel.

Page 25314

 1        Q.   The other question or topic area that I wanted to discuss with

 2     you concerned your testimony at page 24, lines 3 through 5, regarding

 3     civilians and what the Special Police was requested to do of them.

 4             I just want you to tell the Chamber that with respect to

 5     civilians, was what the Special Police was doing when they encountered

 6     civilians something that they did to protect them or was it something

 7     they did to try to remove them?

 8        A.   The Special Police did not have the task to take care of

 9     civilians, but during briefings and in the analysis before operation we

10     were told that the civilians should be sent to the relevant regular

11     police, that they had to report themselves to it, and then the further

12     procedure was taken up by the regular police.

13        Q.   One final question with respect to the removal of vehicles.  The

14     Special Police had technical expertise in terms of encountering not just

15     in vehicles but in other places booby-traps, mines.  Is that a reason for

16     the Special Police to be involved in certain instances in checking out

17     vehicles and buildings?

18             I'll repeat the question.  Please wait a second, because part of

19     my question wasn't translated into Croatian.  I'll read the question

20     exactly again as it stands.

21             "The Special Police had technical expertise in terms of

22     encountering not just in vehicles but in other places booby-traps, mines.

23     Is that a reason for the Special Police to be involved in certain

24     instances in checking out vehicles and buildings?"

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

Page 25315

 1             MR. WAESPI:  It's a leading question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 4        Q.   Can you give a reason as to why Special Police would be involved

 5     in removal of vehicles and/or checking out buildings?

 6        A.   Yes, Defence Counsel.  During the war between 1991 and 1995,

 7     Special Police had gained a lot of knowledge, and it was specialised in

 8     securing certain areas.  So their main task was to fight against

 9     terrorism.  That was their main task within the Ministry of the Interior,

10     and as such they were qualified to execute a number of jobs.  They had

11     lots of knowledge, and how they put it, there were many areas in which

12     they had to work.  One of their duties was the de-mining of liberated

13     territories, entering certain facilities for which we could suppose that

14     they might be mined, as well as vehicles and other abandoned items.

15     These could be booby-traps, and therefore they inspected such facilities

16     and vehicles.

17        Q.   Could you tell us whether that particular day in Medak a member

18     of the Special Police was wounded as a result of something similar to

19     that?

20        A.   Yes, Defence Counsel.  I'm not certain if it was in the village

21     of Medak itself, but I know that at a check-point on the way to Gospic

22     there was a mine hanging, that is to say a hand grenade, and when the

23     ramp was lifted, the ramp on the road, they wanted to remove it, and then

24     this hand grenade exploded and several of them were wounded.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your

Page 25316

 1     Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.  Any further questions,

 3     Mr. Kehoe?  Mr. Kay?  No further questions.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pavlovic, you talked about how you experienced

 6     the high morale of Mr. Markac.  Could you imagine Mr. Markac falsely

 7     accusing the opposite forces of having launched a sabotage attack as a

 8     pretext for his own -- for his own military activity, that is, just to

 9     create a provocative action which had not taken place in order to justify

10     his own military behaviour?  Could you imagine in your assessment of the

11     morale of Mr. Markac such a thing?

12        A.   No, Your Honour.  Mr. Markac, or General Markac, is first and

13     foremost a policeman at heart.  That is how he was brought up.  And the

14     military activities were imposed upon us, and we had the physical and

15     psychological ability.  We were trained to have the ability to deal with

16     difficult situations.  We were up there on Mount Velebit.  We were there

17     three years.  So that would be the only reason why we went into military

18     action.  But we never looked for a conflict, nor did we provoke a

19     conflict, nor can I imagine that General Markac would ever do that in

20     order -- as a pretext for his own military actions.  That was not in his

21     nature.  It wasn't in our nature or a single member of General Markac's

22     staff.  We were first and foremost policemen and only secondly soldiers.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If he would have said words coming close to what I

24     described at a meeting, would you be surprised?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I would.

Page 25317

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I would like to come back briefly to

 2     your -- to the other matter I raised before the break, that is about the

 3     cars.  I would like to know exactly from you what you observed

 4     personally.  From your testimony, I took it that you saw vehicles

 5     obstructing part of the road, some with their hoods open.

 6             Could you tell us what else you personally observed from removal

 7     of cars, whether cars in this position or cars anywhere else?  Could you

 8     tell us what you personally observed?

 9        A.   Your Honour, I'm not sure I understood which area you meant.

10     Only the Gracac area or while Operation Storm was going on?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about -- I'm asking you this question in

12     the context of your earlier testimony, you remember that cars were to be

13     taken somewhere.  You told us about cars that had to be removed because

14     they were on the road and they were obstructing communication.  That's

15     the context in which I ask you this question.

16        A.   Your Honour, it was like this:  I personally saw several

17     vehicles, not many, five or six perhaps, in Gracac, at the entrance to

18     Donji Lapac that were obstructing the road itself.  Now, I have quite a

19     bit of information about that, because I listened to the radio

20     communications and I learned many things.  I heard about them but I

21     didn't see them myself, except while I was driving along the road myself

22     I saw these vehicles.  But all the other activities that took place, both

23     with respect to issuing orders that certain vehicles be removed and

24     orders to search certain vehicles which might have been placed there on

25     purpose as sabotage, I heard all that through the communication system.

Page 25318

 1     And I mentioned them here because I wanted to show you, Your Honours, and

 2     both parties what the situation was like and that we wanted to deal with

 3     everything that we came across in certain locations and well -- we

 4     received instructions or when I heard about instructions during

 5     conversations at meetings or through the communications network, because

 6     I listened to the Special Police communications and the regular police

 7     communications.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Quite simple, did you learn in this way that

 9     these cars had to be removed, that orders were given?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's how I learnt about it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Who would then give such an order?

12        A.   Several times I heard General Markac telling the commanders that

13     the vehicles and agricultural machinery should be removed and taken to

14     certain locations and that they were given the task of doing that and

15     seeing that the vehicles were handed over as soon as possible and that

16     they were not to be used for Special Police purposes, if at all possible.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But from -- I understand from your testimony that

18     they were used for Special Police purposes sometimes.

19        A.   Yes, while we were in the area.  We had instructions not to drive

20     the vehicles away from the area because they wouldn't be able to be

21     registered nor used for daily duties of special units in their original

22     bases.  So those vehicles were only used in the area while we were in

23     Sector South.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, were instructions -- did you learn about

25     instructions through radio as well that such limited use of cars just

Page 25319

 1     within the area was accepted?

 2        A.   I'm not sure, Your Honour, that that was only through radio

 3     communication.  I think it was discussed at staff meetings which took

 4     place every day in the evening.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you personally observe the use of those vehicles

 6     for local Special Police purposes?

 7        A.   No, Your Honour I did not.  I've already said that throughout

 8     that time I was at headquarters when I was in those bases, so that I

 9     wasn't out in the open much to see those vehicles being used.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you learn about it if you didn't see it

11     yourself?  What was the information you received on the matter?

12        A.   There was information coming in from time to time that the

13     Special Police forces were driving vehicles that weren't registered, and

14     there was the danger of them entering into an area where they would not

15     be recognised and then our forces could target them.  So the

16     recommendation was that that -- those vehicles should be used as little

17     as possible, and if they were used, then these units using them would

18     place their name on the car.  I remember that there were a couple of cars

19     like that where the unit's name was written up on them, but the

20     recommendation was that the vehicles should be handed over to the

21     civilian protection as soon as possible and that there was no need to use

22     them too often.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And you would see these cars driving around with the

24     names of units on them?

25        A.   No.  I just saw on the photograph that was shown.  I saw that

Page 25320

 1     there was writing on that, and I saw that the name "Delta" was written up

 2     on the vehicle, which was a Special Police Unit.  There was one by that

 3     name.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I earlier asked you whether you had seen this

 5     photograph during your interview.  Did you see that photograph at any

 6     time, at any place before you came to court yesterday or today?

 7        A.   No, Your Honour.  I just saw it a while ago when you showed it to

 8     me -- or, rather, when the Prosecutor showed it to me.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

10             Any further questions triggered by the questions by the Bench?

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pavlovic, this then concludes your testimony in

13     this court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming the long way

14     to The Hague and for answering all the questions that were put to you by

15     the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And as I said before, I would give an opportunity to

19     raise some procedural issues later today.

20             And I do understand, Mr. Misetic, that the Gotovina Defence would

21     like to bar table or to seek admission as a bar table exhibit a document.

22             MR. MISETIC:  It is 65 ter number 1643.  This is a leaflet

23     discussed at -- in Mr. Theunens's report, P113, part 2, pages 199 to 200.

24     We would ask that it be moved into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'll understand that it does not immediately

Page 25321

 1     ring a bell what at that page Mr. Theunens said.  Could you briefly

 2     describe the leaflet.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if we could pull it up on the

 4     screen, please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so that we know what we're talking about.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  There was some discussion with Mr. Granic

 7     last week from the Bench about leaflets, I believe.  If I'm not mistaken,

 8     it was Mr. Granic.  It was -- part of the Brioni transcript was read back

 9     to Mr. Granic, and it is the position of the Gotovina Defence that the

10     leaflet discussed at Brioni is the leaflet which we now have on the

11     screen.  The Prosecution may take a different position, but nevertheless

12     given that we had been content with simply leaving into -- in

13     Mr. Theunens's report, but given that one leaflet has already been

14     offered into evidence by the Prosecution, we believe that this leaflet

15     should have been a separate exhibit and get its own number for reasons

16     that I think later on will be relevant in terms of arguing the leaflet

17     discussed at Brioni and which one was discussed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Waespi, Mr. Carrier, any objections?

19             MR. WAESPI:  Can we have some more information about the source

20     of the document?

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, it's a Prosecution document, and

22     it's cited by Mr. Theunens in his report, so I would just direct

23     Mr. Waespi to Mr. Theunens's report on this issue.

24             MR. WAESPI:  I'll have to look into that and report back,

25     Mr. President.

Page 25322

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, from our position it is in evidence

 3     already.  It's just a question of whether we can have it marked as a

 4     separate exhibit since Mr. Theunens --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Relied upon it, you would say that --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  And actually --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it should and reason that the --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Chamber couldn't ignore --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Yes and cited.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, would you agree with that if

12     Mr. Theunens cites this document that there's no way out unless you would

13     withdraw the report of Mr. Theunens in this respect?

14             MR. WAESPI:  No.  I agree with you.  I just need to see

15     Theunens's report, whether it corresponds.  I'm not doubting it.  I just

16     need some time to look into it, but I agree with the reasoning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Usually we ask for joint filing of bar table

18     documents, but I think that all the purposes that are served by that

19     procedure are served by now, that is the relevance has been explained,

20     specific portions we have to pay attention to is for a one-page document

21     is not really something.

22             There's one issue which is about the handwriting on it -- on the

23     document.  Any explanation for that, because I do not know what was there

24     before.  Something is stricken out and now says "Obrovac and Benkovac"

25     and there must have been something else.

Page 25323

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Again, Mr. President, this is a document we

 2     received from the Prosecution, and it's -- this is the document, I

 3     believe, cited by Mr. Theunens in his report.  So it is offered the way

 4     it was received by us.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which doesn't take away that there may be

 6     questions about it.

 7             If any further explanation for that striking out and handwriting

 8     could be provided, the Chamber would appreciate that.

 9             Mr. Registrar, this document would receive number?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that, will become Exhibit D1832.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Then there was apparently another translation issue which -- yes,

13     Mr. Mikulicic.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I could cover that.  I would like to

15     turn back to the document D420, which was discussed during the testimony

16     of Mr. Pejkovic.  In the meantime, we obtained two missing pages in the

17     Croatian version of that document, and we would like to load them into

18     the version -- or into the Croatian version of the document so that this

19     version could be totally completed, not with the missing two pages.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  And we had a conversation with Mr. Registrar, and

22     I think that could be provided quite easily.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think there were two issues, if I'm -- if my

24     recollection serves me well.  The first were the two missing pages.  The

25     other one was whether the two originals, one original in English, one

Page 25324

 1     original in B/C/S, whether there was any substantial difference between

 2     the content of it, and I think, Mr. Mikulicic, but correct me when I'm

 3     wrong, that we invited the Markac Defence to specifically compare the two

 4     pages that were missing, but apart from that, also to have a more general

 5     look at the document to see whether these two originals could be

 6     considered of, if not the full hundred per cent, at least the 99 per cent

 7     same content, apart from issues of time periods.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Our position is like this:  We

 9     checked the document, although I could not say with a hundred per cent

10     certainty, but as it turns to our position, both documents are original

11     version and there is no great discrepancies between those two versions.

12     But what I would suggest is that we wait a little while to hear from the

13     Prosecution side whether their checking had accomplished some other

14     results, and afterwards we could easily join together and inform the

15     Chamber.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

17             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It was a document that

18     was tendered by Mr. Kuzmanovic during Mr. Galbraith's testimony.  It's

19     been used again extensively now by the Markac Defence during

20     Mr. Pejkovic's testimony.  I think just to close the issue it would be

21     better if the Markac Defence submitted the Croatian version for

22     translation so that there's one version.  Presumably they didn't write

23     two separate documents at the same time.  They wrote a Croatian version

24     of the document.  I think that's apparent.  So I think that there should

25     be corresponding translation of that document.  That should be relied on.

Page 25325

 1     And then to invite the Prosecution to do that work for the

 2     Markac Defence, the Prosecution submits it's not our duty to do that.

 3     It's the person tendering the document, putting it into evidence, that

 4     should ensure that there's a proper translation.  So I would ask that the

 5     Markac Defence take that on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Very practically, again how many pages were

 7     there, approximately, the whole of document.

 8             MR. CARRIER:  It was roughly 50 in the English.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifty in the English.  Well, let's say -- I think

10     there were something like 33 in the Croatian, but I'm not certain about

11     that.  Have you considered how much time that takes from CLSS to have

12     that translated?

13             MR. CARRIER:  I have given that.  I was also asked to try to do

14     that during the course of the day in the middle of the witness.  I know

15     how difficult it would be to compare, so I understand with direct

16     knowledge how difficult it would be.  That's why I think it would be

17     better just to have one document.  And so for our translators to sit down

18     and --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I'm just thinking in terms of resources.

20     I'm a very practical person in that respect.  It will take days and days

21     to have this all translated, whereas whether there's a real pressing need

22     is not yet explored.

23             One way of exploring would be, and I'm just giving this as a

24     suggestion, you're sitting in a room, Defence and Prosecution, or someone

25     at least who can read the language, reads out one paragraph loud in the

Page 25326

 1     one version, and then the same paragraph is read in the other version.

 2     If these two persons do understand the other language as well, and it

 3     must be possible to find bilingual persons in both teams, then they could

 4     see whether there's any substantial difference in the language used.

 5             Let's not forget that this is not an order to attack, or this is

 6     not a -- this is a document which explains years after the events what

 7     apparently was done by the government, what the plans were, how they -- I

 8     mean, it's -- it's -- I wouldn't say marginal, but it's certainly not at

 9     the core of the case.

10             Now, I can imagine that it would take you -- two persons, a

11     couple of hours.  Six hours, seven hours, eight hours for the two persons

12     together.  Then you would have established whether there really is a need

13     to have 50 pages translated, which might take days and days and days of

14     our resources.

15             I do not know exactly what it is, but I think it's six or eight

16     pages a day, which would keep someone busy for six or seven days.

17             We have to be, and this has got nothing to do with -- it's just a

18     management issue, and I would like you and the Defence to consider to do

19     this exploration first before the Chamber will finally decide on whether

20     or not the Markac Defence will be instructed to provide a new

21     translation.

22             Is that a matter you'd be willing to consider?

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  By all means, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Carrier.

25             MR. CARRIER:  Yes.  I'll ask somebody on our team to meet and

Page 25327

 1     spend the time with someone from the Markac Defence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You look as if you're quite unhappy with it.

 3     That's a read from your face.

 4             MR. CARRIER:  No, no.  I'm just -- just trying to be as practical

 5     as possible --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's appreciated.

 7             Then if there still is a need to have a full translation, the

 8     Chamber will hear from you first of all, Mr. Carrier, because it would be

 9     that you're not satisfied with the results.

10             Any other matter?  If not, then -- let me just --

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn, Mr. Registrar drew my attention

13     to the fact that I had not yet responded to the new uploaded two pages,

14     but I think it was already implied in my earlier instructions that they

15     should be uploaded so that at least not the one reading has two pages

16     less to read than the other one.  So therefore, please may the two pages

17     be included in the uploaded Croatian version of this document.

18             Tomorrow it's a UN holiday.  We have no further witnesses for

19     today.  Therefore, we -- we adjourn and resume on Monday, the 30th of

20     November, 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom III.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.10 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day

23                           of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.