Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27208

 1                           Thursday, 25 February 2010 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, et al.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Good morning to you, Mr. Radic, as well.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15                           WITNESS:  JURE RADIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to ask a few additional questions in

19     relation to the statement you've given to the Gotovina Defence.

20             In paragraph 24 of that statement, you mention that accommodating

21     the population of Kijevo in Knin and the reconstructions of new houses in

22     Kistanje, which were used to accommodate citizens.

23             Could you tell us a bit more.  I think you mentioned it yesterday

24     a few times as well, the reconstruction of houses in Kistanje, when, for

25     whom, how many.  Could you give us some details about this, new houses in

Page 27209

 1     Kistanje and housing people from Kijevo in Knin.  Perhaps we start with

 2     Kistanje.

 3             Before you answer this question I'd like to remind you that the

 4     solemn declaration you gave yesterday is still binding.  That is, that

 5     you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 6             Mr. Radic.

 7        A.   I think that the construction of apartments or houses in Kistanje

 8     is the best example with which we wished to resolve a number of problems

 9     that we had at the same time.  At the same time, we had expelled Croats,

10     people who were expelled from their homes.  Then we had Croats and

11     Bosniaks from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Croats from Serbia, and we also

12     have people who had left their homes in Croatia and for the most part had

13     gone to Serbia.  Thus, Serbs.

14             After Oluja, and a large portion of Croatia was liberated, there

15     was a large number in Kistanje --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.  I'd first like -- I

17     specified my question, when, how many.  If we could first go to the facts

18     and then whether it's a good example of A, B, or C and what exactly --

19     first, I'm interested in knowing the facts of this reconstruction of

20     houses.

21        A.   In Kistanje, we built a new part of a settlement with 150 houses,

22     if I remember correctly.  Completely new ones in a field.  They were

23     completely equipped with all the facilities, infrastructure, and this is

24     where we had the assistance of the government of the United States,

25     through a fund of theirs.  They invested in the construction of the water

Page 27210

 1     works and the electricity supply.

 2             After the houses were completed, we placed people there who were

 3     occupying temporarily property that had been abandoned.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask you when that was.  When did you

 5     start reconstructing and when were these 150 houses ready.

 6        A.   About 150 houses, yes.  Well, it's difficult for me to recall the

 7     exact date.  But it was sometime -- let's say we began a year after

 8     Storm.

 9             After Storm, right away, we started to prepare the development

10     plans.  We were planning a few villages like that.  There was a

11     settlement we were planning near Gracac.  There was one near Donji Lapac.

12     Unfortunately, this one was never built.  And there were several examples

13     I mentioned three large ones with more than 100 houses but there were

14     several smaller ones in different areas.

15             So after Storm, we began to develop the plans but the

16     construction of a village with 150 houses requires a lot of time and a

17     lot of money, of course.

18             As far as can I remember now, I think that we started about a

19     year after Storm with this construction, and then in a year, or a little

20     bit more, well, proof of that and this is something that I remember well,

21     is that the ambassador of the United States at the time was

22     Mr. Montgomery, and so we were distributing keys in a public ceremony to

23     people who were transferred then from temporarily occupied premises so

24     that they could return to Kistanje.  I think Kistanje now is a very good

25     example of co-habitation.

Page 27211

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say it's a good example of co-habitation,

 2     could you tell us what at this moment, approximately, then the balance

 3     is.

 4        A.   I don't know at this point in time.  I did go to a sort of

 5     celebration there.  I was invited to go about three years ago.  A Serb

 6     was the mayor at the time, and on the basis of that, I conclude that the

 7     Serbs were the majority to go and vote.  So I assume that the ratio of

 8     people living in Kistanje right now is perhaps 50/50.  I also know when

 9     there are elections, people frequently are organised from Serbia.  They

10     come by buses from there in order to vote so perhaps that was a decisive

11     factor.  But like I said yesterday I haven't been on this kind of work

12     for the past ten years.  I'm no longer doing that work, so now I am just

13     really stating my impressions about the current situation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  150 houses approximately were constructed.  Do I

15     understand that those who were temporarily housed in Kistanje or from

16     elsewhere, that they moved into those houses?

17        A.   People were transferred to the newly built houses who were

18     previously temporarily placed in abandoned property in Kistanje and its

19     environs.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would that be mainly Croats or ...

21        A.   For the most part Croats, yes.  I think almost over 90 per cent.

22     There was some Bosniaks among them.  But from what I remember now, the

23     bulk of them were Croats.  For a number of years they had been in

24     privately owned homes of Serbs who had left Croatia.  We emptied those

25     houses and freed them up for the Serbs who had left them before to be

Page 27212

 1     able to return there.

 2             Kistanje is alive again.  It's a very nice neighbourhood now with

 3     a lot of children.  I feel very comfortable there when I go and visit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, do I understand -- do you have any data, then,

 5     on Serbs, then, returning?  And were there programmes for reconstruction

 6     of their houses as well?  Could you tell us in factual terms what

 7     happened there.  Because if I hear that people came from buses -- with

 8     buss from Serbia to vote, that means that apparently they were not all

 9     back in their houses, and if you need buses, then at least a number, a --

10     not just one or two, but -- could you tell us what, then, happened with

11     the houses that were -- that were left in order to move into the new

12     constructed houses?  What happened with the abandoned houses?

13        A.   When I said "buses," this referred to a portion of the

14     population.  A portion did come back.  I will speak about an example that

15     I am familiar with.

16             A family left one house.  They had grandfather and grandmother,

17     father and mother, and children.  This is really important.  It's

18     important.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Examples are sometimes

20     illustrative; sometimes not illustrative of the overall picture.  At this

21     moment, I'm primarily seeking to have information which allows me to have

22     the overall picture rather than one example.  Could well be that it is

23     very much representative for the whole of it, but it could also be that

24     it is the exception.  So therefore, I'd rather refrain from listening to

25     examples and rather have clear facts, figures, for the overall picture.

Page 27213

 1        A.   All Serbs whose houses were vacated had the option of returning.

 2     A number of them during the time that they had spent outside of Croatia

 3     managed to get jobs, their children were attending school, let's say

 4     somewhere else, in Belgrade, for example, so they had become attached to

 5     their work.  So a number of people came to Kistanje.  Perhaps older

 6     people came back.  This is why I talked about grandfathers and

 7     grandmothers who --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  For the interpreters, could you please slow down.

 9     Mr. Misetic also assists me in making the job for the interpreters still

10     bearable.

11             Mr. Radic, you said, "perhaps older people came back."

12             Do you have figures?  How many -- how many --

13        A.   I don't have the figures.  I didn't say perhaps all of them came

14     back.  All of them could have come back and those who wanted to come back

15     did come back.  This is not a rule.  But taking Kistanje as an example,

16     elderly people who had retirement pensions who had an option of returning

17     but didn't have any children in school somewhere else at that moment, so

18     they didn't have that problem, they returned.  Those others who continued

19     to live outside of Croatia would come back when there was a vote.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You said, Those who wished to come back did come

21     back.

22             Well, Kistanje was a village with, well, quite a number of

23     inhabitants.  Was any research done on whether they wished or not, or is

24     it just that you conclude from the return of some, you can't give us the

25     data, that returned and said they wished to return, that you concluded

Page 27214

 1     that those who wished to return did return?  Is that -- I mean, what's

 2     the basis exactly for your statement?  That those who wished to return

 3     did return.

 4        A.   I'm drawing the conclusion on the basis of the fact that

 5     everybody had the opportunity to submit an application to return, and for

 6     reconstruction, we reconstructed the houses.  I don't know what else one

 7     could do in order to get people to come back.

 8             So I conclude on the basis of administrative procedure that those

 9     who wanted to come back did come back.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say if they're not -- if they did not

11     apply for return, they apparently had no wish to return.  Is that,

12     briefly, what you're telling us?

13        A.   That was my conclusion.  However, there is still the option for

14     these people to return.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move away from that.

16             Do you know whether the figure of Serbs that, meanwhile, have

17     returned is published anywhere, even if you do not know it by heart?  Is

18     there any publication as to the present situation or the situation as it

19     developed over time?

20        A.   No, I am not aware of that.  Again, I have not been in politics

21     for the past ten years.  I'm involved in something completely different

22     now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that leaves, still, the time open from

24     1999 to 2009, where perhaps would you have had information about the

25     period, 1995/1999.

Page 27215

 1        A.   Absolutely.  Absolutely, on the basis of what I can remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In your statement, you mentioned the national

 3     programme for demographic renewal.

 4             Now this Chamber has received a lot of evidence on all kind of

 5     programmes and developments.  But a programme by this very name, I think

 6     we haven't -- we count find it at least.  Therefore, I would like to hear

 7     from you what that programme, under this name, exactly was.  Briefly,

 8     please, so that we have a -- that we know where to place it.  When was it

 9     developed?  What did it consist of?

10        A.   This is a document that is not initially connected to the wartime

11     events.  When we established the Croatian state in 1990, there were no

12     longer reasons which had led to the fact that -- that one half of ethnic

13     Croats were in Croatia and half were outside of Croatia.  These were most

14     frequently political reasons from Communist times.  At the very beginning

15     when we were establishing the Croatian state, and I actually began to do

16     this as early as 1992 when I was minister of education and then I

17     continued as the minister for development and reconstruction.  We defined

18     a national programme of demographic renewal which has a few basic

19     principles.  The first one, to stimulate population growth.  Croatia has

20     a negative population growth.  It had it then and it still does.

21             At the time we adopted measures which referred to all the

22     citizens of Croatia.  There was no mention of one particular ethnic

23     group, encouraging families with more children.  They were child

24     supplements and things like that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked to you to be brief.  I do understand that

Page 27216

 1     part of the programme was to stimulate families having more children so

 2     as to not have a negative population growth.  Yes, other parts -- when

 3     was the programme developed?  When was it put on paper?

 4        A.   The programme was developed from 1992 until 1995 or 1996.  I

 5     think in 1996 it was adopted by the assembly.  1996.  I have to mention

 6     three facts at least the first one to stimulate families with more

 7     children.  The second point was to encourage the settlement of empty

 8     swaths of area of Croatia so better population distribution.  The third

 9     measure was to encourage immigration, the return of Croats who, during

10     the Communist period, left for Germany, Holland, Canada, United States,

11     so that was the main concept of the programme.  It was unanimously

12     adopted by the Assembly.  It is being applied still today.

13             It was followed by a series of laws on areas of special benefit,

14     then the laws on islands.  If the islands were sparsely populated, then

15     laws on hilly terrain.  But in any case, these laws applied to all

16     Croatian citizens.

17             I'm just going to mention one more fact.  This first group

18     stimulating the birth-rate and families with more children.  At the time

19     we had a large number of Roma who wanted to come to Croatia from other

20     countries.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radic, at this moment, the Chamber has no

24     further questions for you.

25             Perhaps briefly, Mr. Kay, the Chamber looked at the material

Page 27217

 1     yesterday.  You provided the 61 pages of which approximately little bit

 2     over 20 pages were about de-mining.  What the Chamber was seeking was the

 3     link between the time-limits set for return, et cetera.  We -- I know a

 4     lot more about de-mining now, about how to organise it, 2.000 people,

 5     ten years, how to pay them, either privately to be done or not.  But I

 6     didn't find any link to time-limits set for return, and, as a matter of

 7     fact, it seemed to very much a very long-term matter.

 8             I suggest that if the parties agree that no such thing is found

 9     in there, and where I would be surprised if either Prosecution or any

10     Defence team would argue that de-mining was not a major problem.  I would

11     expect everyone to accept that after such a war period that de-mining was

12     a huge problem, very expensive problem to -- problem which was very

13     expensive to resolve than it did need a lot of organisation and a lot of

14     -- brought a lot of problems.

15             If the parties would agree on that, then I would leave it at that

16     and not have another 25 or 61 pages in addition into evidence.

17             MR. KAY:  Within that document, which is why I knew of it, there

18     is an matter right at the end that refers to General Cermak, and that was

19     why I was aware of the subject matter, and it was something that we had

20     in our mind to bar table, because it was relevant for the appointment

21     issue.  I don't know whether Your Honour saw that passage and its --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I went through all of the 61 pages.  I can't say

23     that I read them line by line, but that is it not what the Chamber was

24     looking for, of course, because the issue was not Mr. Cermak and

25     de-mining.

Page 27218

 1             MR. KAY:  No.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The issue was the time-limits set for return, being

 3     explained by de-mining concerns.  Therefore, if you want to take any

 4     action -- but what the Chamber was looking for was not found in there.

 5             And may I take it that there is it no disagreement that de-mining

 6     of such a large area would take quite a lot of efforts and that there's

 7     no dispute about that?

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No dispute, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Your Honour, there was some information in there,

11     such as a large number of people killed, 400 killed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, I -- I included that in the huge problems

13     when I was talking about what wages to pay -- of course, the beginning

14     was -- the question was 400 people injured or killed, and then it's clear

15     that many were killed.  So, therefore, there is apparently no dispute

16     about the seriousness of the situation where there are a lot of mines,

17     and what it takes to deal with that.  There are, of course, there is

18     other information as well as where those mines would be found, whether

19     there would be mines where people would normally move around which seems

20     to be -- receive a -- well, a bit of a negative answer.  But the Chamber

21     was not looking for the details and the problems of de-mining.  If you

22     want to put that on our table, then it should be in a different context

23     and it is not in response to what we were seeking yesterday, that is,

24     documentary corroboration of what the witness told us, that the one month

25     to the three months was also caused by de-mining problems.

Page 27219

 1             MR. KAY:  I suppose it's a chicken and egg situation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But that is all reasoning.  That is all reasoning.

 3     I no where see anyone saying, Let's stop them for another month because

 4     we have still a lot of de-mining to do.  The link is -- can be on our

 5     minds but is nowhere expressly discussed.

 6             MR. KAY:  I suppose in that form, but it may have been obvious to

 7     the speakers that the problem itself caused by de-mining was part of the

 8     very problem that they were dealing with generally with the return.  It

 9     may not have been expressed as a temporal matter, and I have not seen

10     anything in relation to that, but the actual generality of the problem

11     being, to the speakers minds, being obviously an effecting factor.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do see your point.  It becomes now more or

13     less argumentative rather than --  and then of course, there could be a

14     lot of arguments, such as if you need 20.000 people for ten years, why

15     would you then extent from one month to three months?  And this is all

16     discussed after the moment that those time-limits have been set.  We're

17     talking about December 1995.  But let's not -- the Chamber, having looked

18     at it, doesn't find a direct answer to its question there, and therefore,

19     will leave it as it is.  But, of course, if the parties want to take any

20     other initiative, then you have put already quite a bit on the record,

21     Mr. Kay.

22             MR. KAY:  I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. KAY:  Shall I bar table the document?  Would that be a

25     convenient route rather than --

Page 27220

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then certainly not the whole of the document,

 2     I would say, because it is just item 2 of the agenda.  So that saves

 3     another 35 pages.

 4             You can consider that.  Perhaps Ms. Gustafson would -- would like

 5     to respond now or in the future.

 6             The Chamber, at this moment, having looked at it, takes no

 7     initiative to have it in evidence and waits whatever will be submitted to

 8     it.

 9             Ms. Gustafson, are you ready to cross-examine, Mr. Radic?

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radic, you will now be cross-examined by

12     Ms. Gustafson.  Ms. Gustafson is counsel for the Prosecution.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Just as a preliminary matter we have, more out of

14     habit than anything, released our cross-examination documents.  There was

15     no procedure on that issue indicated by the Chamber, and I don't know if

16     the Chamber has a view on that or not, but I just wanted to indicate that

17     that was something that we had done.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that --

19             MR. KEHOE:  We're prepared to do same.  I assume that we were

20     going to follow the same procedure that we had previously.  So I would

21     just adopt the procedure laid out by Ms. Gustafson.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Your good example is followed, Ms. Gustafson -- will

23     be followed.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  If we could go to P462, page 16 of

Page 27221

 1     the English and page 25 in B/C/S.

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

 3        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Radic.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   I'd like to go back to --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Ms. Gustafson.  I don't know if the

 7     parties have lost the LiveNote.  I appear to have.  I don't know if

 8     others have.  On my screen.  Is this one working?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I've lost it too.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We all lost it.

11             Could we work on the other screen for the time being and be

12     informed about a quick restoration of our facilities.

13             Then please proceed.  If at any time it causes too big problems,

14     then we'd like to hear.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Radic, I'd like to go back to the discussion from the

17     11th of August, 1995 about the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property

18     that was being discussed at that session.  And you looked at that

19     document yesterday.

20             And, again, I'd like to draw your attention to this part of the

21     transcript, where you speak and you say:

22             "Nothing is more important than this, nothing is more important

23     in Croatia today than this, because people are coming, Croats, and I

24     don't know, we don't have a report on this, but I don't know if you know

25     that Vojnic ... has [sic] only 51 inhabitants, today it's a town of

Page 27222

 1     15.000 people, and tomorrow we can fill it up with 15.000, in addition,

 2     Lapac has 14 inhabitants, 14 Croats ..."

 3             Just stopping there for a moment, when you said Vojnic has only

 4     51 inhabitants and Donji Lapac has only 14 inhabitants, 14 Croats, now,

 5     according to the 1991 census, there were precisely 14 ethnic Croats in

 6     the town of Donji Lapac and 51 ethnic Croats in the town of Vojnic.  And

 7     since you used these same figures in your speech, I'd just like to ask

 8     you to confirm that you were referring here to the number of ethnic

 9     Croats in those places, according to the 1991 census.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   I guess so, given that this was a very short time after the

12     Storm, I had no data about members of other ethnicities who may have

13     stayed.  I would have guessed that some Serbs had stayed as well, but

14     this was very short time after the Storm, and we did not have any new

15     data on the population there.

16        Q.   And when you said that -- you used the present tense when you

17     said "there are 51 inhabitants in Vojnic and 14 in Donji Lapac," did you

18     mean that the Croats in those towns had been there all along, or did you

19     mean that they had returned to those places after Operation Storm?

20        A.   I did declare that I will speak the truth and only the truth, and

21     that it would not be my guess-work so I cannot completely remember what I

22     thought at that time.  But I guess that I thought the 51 would now come

23     back, given that now the conditions have been met for them to come back.

24        Q.   So, at this point, you weren't sure if they had come back but you

25     thought those Croats would soon return to those villages.  Is that -- is

Page 27223

 1     that how I'm to understand your answer?

 2        A.   That's correct.  Because I knew I did receive reports that the

 3     buildings, the apartment buildings that were owned either by JNA or some

 4     corporations, such as Hrvatske Sume, that they were free and they were

 5     intact so it was possible for people to come back.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If I could just ask you to try to limit your answers

 7     to the precise questions that I have, and if I want more information,

 8     I'll ask you, just because I have limited time.  Thank you.

 9             And also in this speech we looked at this language before in

10     parenthesis.  If you look at the screen, it might assist you.

11             In parentheses it says:  "(It's more than the number of houses

12     ...)"  And you thought that the parentheses indicated that that was

13     somebody else speaking there in the middle of what you were saying?

14             And then right after that you say:

15             "I agree, but it's strategically so important and it's in such a

16     position that we must repair the houses, Gojko, and put Croats there,

17     such is the position of the place."

18             Now you used the word -- the name Gojko there, and it seems to me

19     that it may have been that it was Mr. Susak who said:  "It's more than

20     the number of houses," and that's why you said you agreed, but you

21     must -- "... we must repair the houses, Gojko ..."

22        A.   No.  Looking at this now, it seems to me that this is not an

23     entire sentence that was spoken by Gojko.  So I probably commented or

24     responded to the entire sentence, and this is just one portion of it.  I

25     can't remember what the full sentence looked like.  It says here, "it's

Page 27224

 1     more than the number of houses," but it seems that more was said after

 2     this.  And I assume I heard the entire sentence.  And whoever was making

 3     this transcript did not put in the entire sentence.

 4             So I do not know what this comment of mine actually refers to.

 5        Q.   But do you agree that when you said the name Gojko that you were

 6     talking -- that it Mr. Susak who had said something in the middle of what

 7     you were saying here?

 8        A.   I'm almost certain there was no other Gojko at the meeting, apart

 9     from Mr. Susak.  But I really cannot confirm what was it that he really

10     said, on the basis of what is written here.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'd like to concentrate on what you said which was:

12             "I agree but it is strategically so important and it's in such a

13     position that we must repair the houses."

14             Now, you're talking about repairing houses here, and I take it

15     from that that you understood, at least at the time, that there were

16     houses in Donji Lapac that were damaged or destroyed that needed to be

17     repaired so that Croats could move there.

18             Is that right?

19        A.   There is no doubt that all the houses that used to belong to

20     Croats before the war were destroyed during the occupation.  In the

21     occupied territory, I did not find a single house that used to be owned

22     by a Croat who was expelled that was not burned down.  Apart from some of

23     them that were used for other purposes.

24             So in Lapac and in Vojnic there was a small number of Croats

25     prior to the war, but their houses were destroyed whilst they were

Page 27225

 1     expelled.  So I said let us accommodate them now temporarily in the

 2     state-owned apartments but let us immediately start reconstructing their

 3     houses so that they can move to their houses rather than stay forever in

 4     the properties that were not theirs.  This is my understanding of what I

 5     said here.

 6        Q.   But you wanted to move far more than just the 14 Croats who'd

 7     lived in Donji Lapac before into Donji Lapac.  You wanted to move a large

 8     number of Croats there because it was a strategically important location,

 9     as you told the Trial Chamber yesterday, right?

10        A.   There is no doubt about this.  As I said yesterday, in Vojnic,

11     Lapac, and Gracac, we had members of the JNA which attacked Croatia, and

12     they left Croatia.  So my position was that those apartments which now

13     belonged to the Republic of Croatia should be allocated to members of the

14     Croatian army so that they move there, rather than stay in Zagreb or

15     Split.

16        Q.   Mr. Radic, you're not talking here about moving 15.000 HV members

17     into Vojnic.  You're talking about moving 15.000 Croats there, aren't

18     you?

19        A.   Yes.  But I'm just trying to explain what I referred to.  I also

20     thought about people who worked for the company Hrvatske Sume, Croatian

21     forests.  I also thought about teachers, about doctors, a teacher of

22     mathematics from Vojnic left.  He used to live in an apartment that was

23     owned by the school and we needed new teachers there.  This is what we

24     discussed yesterday.

25        Q.   Now yesterday you were asked about some comments from this

Page 27226

 1     meeting that suggested that the Law on Property, the Law on the Temporary

 2     Takeover of property would be aimed at guaranteeing persons who were

 3     granted property for temporary use, that they would not be expelled if

 4     the owner returned, so that the refugees would not return.

 5             And you said that some people thought that way, but you thought

 6     differently, and you said you always took care of one type and the other

 7     type of persons.  That was at page 22.

 8             By one type and the other type of persons, were you referring

 9     there to Serbs and Croats?

10        A.   I was referring to different types of refugees and displaced

11     persons.  Because we always had a number, though be it a small number of

12     persons amongst the refugees and displaced person who were Croats or

13     Bosnians or Serbs.  So in no document did we distinguish between persons

14     on the basis of their ethnicity.  But even today I tried to explain what

15     we had in mind when we had -- when we said that everybody would be taken

16     care of.

17             So when we offered temporary accommodation for displaced Croats

18     from Bosnia, in Vojnic, we promised them that they would not be kicked

19     out, but we would find other accommodation for them in order to be able

20     to return those houses to -- to refugees who came back.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radic.  Again, if you could just try to answer

22     very precisely just the question I'm asking without going into a lot of

23     examples because I just simply don't have time to hear all of these

24     stories.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could turn to page 18 of this document, in

Page 27227

 1     the English, and page 27 in the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Now, I'd like to you look at the second speaker, which again is

 3     you.  And you say:

 4             "We have good houses, intact houses, who do we keep them for?

 5             And Mr. Valentic says:

 6             "So move them into the houses, and we will provide for that by a

 7     law or decree in the coming days?"

 8             And Mr. Vrdoljak says:

 9             "So they must know that if they move into the house we will

10     not ..."

11             And then Mr. Milas says:

12             "Mr. President, it doesn't even need to be that way.  You put

13     everything under the state's sequestration and give guarantees to those

14     inside that nobody will touch them.  The state deals with them, and we

15     put that also for these ..."

16             And then somebody says:  "We did."

17             And then Mr. Seks says:

18             "President, we did put it into the law, for the second reading,

19     but the people that move into a house have ownership security.  They

20     don't want temporary use, they must invest, repair, keep it in order.

21     They want to own it?"

22             And if we go to the next page in the B/C/S, President Tudjman

23     says:  "Yes, well, that's clear.  It's in our interests too."

24             Now, here, when Mr. Seks refers to ownership, security and that

25     people don't want to temporary use, they want to own it, and

Page 27228

 1     President Tudjman responds, Yes, that's clear, that's in our interest

 2     too, President Tudjman here is one of those people who thought that the

 3     property law should be aimed at guaranteeing that people who are granted

 4     these properties for use would not have to leave, if the owner returned;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Your Honour, the Prosecutor asked me that I try to be short, but

 7     I assume the answer is always at least twice as long as the question, so

 8     your question took several minutes, so I assume that my answer would be a

 9     bit longer than that.  I hope can agree with this.

10             Yesterday I think I was clear enough.  During any discussion,

11     discussion on any topic, including this one, there were different ideas

12     that were voiced.  Some people did suggest that we should sequestrate all

13     the property, and that's it.  But after this meeting and additional ten

14     meetings we adopted conclusions and the law.  And the wording of that law

15     and a the spirit of that law was that the property would be secured that

16     nobody would touch the private property, and that it would be returned to

17     the rightful owners once they come back and once all the necessary

18     conditions are met.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we go to P463 again, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Radic, this is the transcript of the meeting from the 22nd of

21     August.  Again, you looked at this one yesterday.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 2 in the English and

23     page 4 in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And here again you're talking about returning people to the

25     territory.  And you say in the third paragraph where it begins: "The

Page 27229

 1     second group ..."

 2             You say:

 3             "The second group is the people who can go to the deserted houses

 4     near their own houses.  We're having a lot of problems here, they are

 5     offering resistance.  How should this be done, we simply can't find a way

 6     to force our people to do it.  Some are eager to go, for example

 7     Kijevljani, in most of the cases, accepted to go to Knin.  But the people

 8     from Banja region won't go to Petrinja.  You see Saborski, we had a

 9     discussion in Plaski today, and Saborski has got nothing at all, and

10     Plaski is whole.  They say I am not going to move twice."

11             And President Tudjman says:  "Why would they move twice?"

12             And if we go to the next page you say:  "Today over there, and

13     tomorrow to Saborsko.

14             And President Tudjman says:  "Well, let them stay there.

15             And you say:

16             "They wouldn't.  People are a bit tough about that?"

17             And President Tudjman says:

18             "Wait, is he afraid that he wouldn't be safe?

19             And you say:

20             "He's afraid that he wouldn't be safe, and he's afraid some Serb

21     might come tomorrow.  That's one thing.  And second, he would rather go

22     to his own house over there.  I would look at in some way, but he has to

23     come temporarily.  We'll have to come up with some order or something to

24     be a bit hasher with this in order to take the people there."

25             Now, Plaski was in 1991 a largely Serb village, and Saborsko was

Page 27230

 1     a largely Croat village; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And they're both in Ogulin municipality.  And here you and

 4     President Tudjman are agreeing that the people -- the Croats from

 5     Saborsko, which is destroyed, should just stay in the Serb houses in

 6     Plaski, and you are complaining that the Croats from Saborsko don't want

 7     to do that.  They want to return from their homes.

 8             Is that a correct understanding of this passage?

 9        A.   The beginning of the passage when it says that Saborsko has none,

10     it means that it is destroyed completely.  Saborsko is no more.  The

11     Serbs leveled it to the ground.  We had people from Soborksi accommodated

12     in hotels in Dalmatia, so the dilemma here was whether we would leave

13     them in those hotels in Dalmatia or temporarily find accommodation for

14     them.  I emphasise that, temporarily.  When we're talking about moving

15     twice, it's a question of then temporarily going to abandoned property,

16     and we would need at least a couple of years to rebuild Saborski.  It is

17     unbelievable.  The church was raised to the ground, they took the stones

18     of the church away so that it could never be rebuilt.  So the people were

19     not very happy, and they were not willing to accept this intermediary

20     step.  We needed to get them out of the hotels in order to start off our

21     tourist season.  So that's why we wanted them to move to the abandoned

22     property.  That's also a way of preserving this property.  If it is

23     abandoned too long, it begins to get run down.

24             So they would be moved twice.  First moved to a house abandoned

25     by a Serb, and then after their houses are rebuilt, then they would move

Page 27231

 1     to their own houses.  I believe that this is very clear.

 2        Q.   It's clear that you wanted -- that -- that these people didn't

 3     want to move twice; you said that.  And President Tudjman says, Well, let

 4     them stay there.  He's talking about having them stay in the Serb houses

 5     in Plaski, isn't he?

 6        A.   Again, in Plasko, just like in other parts, there is was a small

 7     number of homes that were priority property.  I keep repeating that and I

 8     will do so.

 9             A large number of apartments in Plasko were not privately owned,

10     but they were owned by the Croatian state or state institutions.  So when

11     the President says, Let them stay there, that's what he is thinking of.

12     Not only in this conversation but in 100 other conversations we always

13     repeated that and implemented that as a principle, private property is

14     inviolable, and we will preserve that.  This conversation that we are

15     quoting here is based on my own and the President's noting that we must

16     prevent the destruction and the burning of homes and houses.

17        Q.   Mr. Radic, Plaski was a village of about 2200 people.  Do you

18     know how many apartments there were in Plaski versus privately owned

19     homes?  Do you have that figure?

20        A.   I don't.  There were both, private houses and apartments.  This

21     is data that can be easily checked.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go now to page 4 of the English and

23     page 6 in the B/C/S.  And it's at the bottom of the B/C/S where

24     President Tudjman says:

25             "Jure, regarding these returns, we as Croatia should go for

Page 27232

 1     inviting people to come back and paying for their trips from Argentina,

 2     Australia, et cetera."

 3             And if we turn the page in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   "We should organise some charter flights or ships and tell them

 5     they could choose, give them houses, give them land, even take some kind

 6     of poll on what they would be interested in.  We have to offer them such

 7     a possibility, but the state should pay for that."

 8             And you say:  "It won't cost us a thing."

 9             And then President Tudjman says:

10             "That would mean a thousand people, and they would enter the Serb

11     houses, et cetera."

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could now go to page 22 of the English

13     and page 33 in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And here at the top of the page in the B/C/S and near the middle

15     in the English, it is you speaking again.  And the second sentence

16     begins:

17             "Secondly, we have to focus on return of the Croat refugees from

18     Germany, 50.000 them.  They still have refugee status over there."

19             And President Tudjman asks if they have region status there.

20             You say:  "In Germany, yes they do.

21             The President:  "Granted by Germany."

22             If we go to the next page in the English, and you say:  "By

23     Germans."

24             And President Tudjman says:  "We can go with that.  Germans will

25     really gladly offer to organise a planned return."

Page 27233

 1             And you say:  "We can do that with Germans.  I talked to their

 2     Minister Scheiber.  He even offered us some money for each returnee."

 3             The president:  "That is all right."

 4             You:

 5             "Those relations can be strengthened and they can be returned?

 6             President:

 7             "Jure, create a project now, say, we offer apartments, land in

 8     this and this areas, et cetera, come back."

 9             And you say:

10             "Okay, we will take care of it in accordance with instruction of

11     the government.  They have softened it just a little bit because

12     obviously the legal aspect of that is --"

13             And President Tudjman interrupts and says:  "Which one?"

14             And now if I could just ask to you read the next line, because I

15     think there might be a confusion in the translation.  If could you read

16     that out in Croatian, where you say, According to present instruction ...

17             Could you read that line, please.  It should be near the bottom

18     of that page.

19        A.   It will not be given as ownership according to the current

20     proposal but for use so that the world or people wouldn't ...

21             And then the following page.

22        Q.   And then if we turn the page in the B/C/S, President Tudjman

23     says:  "For how long?"

24             And you say --

25        A.   For ten years.

Page 27234

 1        Q.   And you say:

 2             "To use it for ten years, which is not bad.  During that period

 3     man has to live there because someone might want to sell it.  After

 4     ten years, man would become owner.  There is a point in that."

 5             Now, you're talking here, when you're talking about what's going

 6     on in the government, and you have to soften it because of the legal

 7     aspects and it will not be given in ownership but for use, you're

 8     referring here to the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property, is that

 9     right, that was being discussed by the government at the time?

10        A.   This conversation has been transcribed quite imprecisely.  I see

11     the sentences are not complete.  They start in one way.  There's -- the

12     conversation started with a Croats from Australia.  The President had an

13     idealistic idea about the programme of the democratic renewal --

14     demographic renewal, which had nothing do with the war, but he worked

15     with it.  And then we moved to the topic of the displaced persons from

16     Germany.

17        Q.   Mr. Radic, I'm not asking you about everything you saw here.  I

18     had a very specific question about whether when you referred to what was

19     going on in the government, the need to soften it because of the legal

20     aspect, and you referred to the world, and it won't be given in ownership

21     but in use, that a reference to the Law on the Temporary Takeover of

22     Property, that was then being discussed by the government; right?

23             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, I need to interrupt.  Mr. President, just

24     in the spirit of clarity, I'm not certain, and I fully comprehend the

25     answer by the witness in the sense that there is some lack of clarity in

Page 27235

 1     our transcript, and just for certainly the Chamber's sake, and for our

 2     collective sake, if there could be some question by the Chamber as to

 3     what may or may not be clear, it would be helpful.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But Ms. Gustafson is inviting the witness to answer

 5     the question rather than to --

 6             What was read to you, what was put to you did Ms. Gustafson, was

 7     that about a discussion which -- in which the Law on the Temporary

 8     Takeover of Property was discussed.  That was the question.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not only that.  At the

10     time, both in the government --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... first establish

14     was the discussion about that law.  Now whether there was another matter,

15     that's second.  Simply, was this a discussion in which - perhaps not

16     exclusively - the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property was

17     discussed?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was discussed, as well as a

19     series of other documents that we were preparing at the time.  At the

20     time I was preparing the programme of return, the principles of return,

21     the reconstruction programme.  A whole range of projects, not only that

22     one law.  But, of course, that law was on the agenda as well.  I cannot

23     say.  I would lie if I were to say that at that point in time

24     President Tudjman and I were discussing exclusively that document at that

25     point in time.

Page 27236

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But the portions put to you by Ms. Gustafson were

 2     primarily focussing on that law.  Is that -- that's apparently what

 3     Ms. Gustafson would like to know.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be sure.  I cannot confirm

 5     that from this conversation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   And when you said, According to present instruction, it won't be

 9     given in ownership but in use, and you refer to the world, are you

10     referring to the concern that the international community would not

11     accept a law that simply transferred the ownership of Serb's property to

12     either the government or to Croats?

13             Is that what you're referring to?

14        A.   It's beyond dispute that the international community would not

15     accept that, but it is also indisputable that we would not adopt anything

16     like that in that form.  So it was not only just a question of the

17     international community.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You are repeatedly explaining what apparently you

19     want to explain.  Ms. Gustafson simply asked you whether the reference to

20     the world was a reference to the international community, which might not

21     accept.

22             Now, whether you had other reasons to do the same thing, that's

23     not what Ms. Gustafson is asking you.  Ms. Gustafson is asking you when

24     you used those words, whether you had with the world on your mind the

25     international community which, as you testified, would not have accepted.

Page 27237

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Radic, also in this passage --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that --

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Oh, pardon me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We still need an answer.

 6             You said also -- but you would agree that the reference to the

 7     world was the reference to the --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.  I agree.  The

 9     international community.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Radic, when you said to President Tudjman that you had

14     to focus on the return of the Croat refugees from Germany, 50.000 of

15     them, were those Bosnian Croat refugees you were referring to?

16        A.   Mostly they were Croats from Croatia.  A certain proportion were

17     Croats from Bosnia.  But mostly this was about Croats from Croatia.  For

18     example, from Slunj which was at the centre of these event, they went to

19     Germany during the war, found temporary work there.  At the time, I had a

20     meeting with the German minister for development who informed me that a

21     large number of people came and through their friends, family, who were

22     in Germany, and received refugee status in Germany.  But it's hard to see

23     which Croat actually came from Bosnia to Croatia, and then from Croatia

24     went to Germany.

25             So it is hard to tell exactly which Croats they were.

Page 27238

 1        Q.   Okay.  So you're not sure.

 2             Now, the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property was discussed,

 3     as we saw, after Operation Storm.  But the procedure for this law was

 4     initiated quite a bit before Storm, and it was contemplated that such a

 5     law would be passed several months before Operation Storm.  Is that

 6     right?

 7        A.   Right.  Before Storm, there was Flash, we had liberated the area

 8     of Western Slavonia a few months before Storm.  There was a similar

 9     situation, the scale of which was larger after Storm, actually, occurred

10     in Western Slavonia after Flash operation.  And this was in May.  Storm

11     was in May --

12        Q.   Mr. Radic --

13        A.   [Previous translation continues] ... and Flash was in June.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Please, again, try to keep your answers as short as

15     possible.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Can we go to 65 ter 846, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Radic, this is a session of the VONS held on the 30th of

18     June, 1995.  And the main subject discussed at this meeting is a visit by

19     President Tudjman and other state representatives to Australia and

20     New Zealand, and here discussed measures aimed at bringing Croatian

21     emigres to live and settle in Croatia.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 7 of the English and

23     page 15 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   Now, here you're speaking and -- about something like ten lines

25     down, you say:

Page 27239

 1             "The main thing is how to deal with that man there, the Croat who

 2     is there, how to make possibilities to bring at least some of them here,

 3     with the goal to bring as many ... here as we can.  It is kind of a

 4     coincidence that we will discuss it today in parliament, probably it will

 5     be scheduled for today.  If not, it will be on the very next day, the law

 6     that we have discussed about for a long time, at urgent procedure, to

 7     talk about Serb's houses and cottages and Croatian state will take over

 8     the ownership over these objects in certain way.

 9             "On government session, we have discussed it yesterday and the

10     day before in ... cabinet, we will present the resolutions - how to

11     provide the operational plan for using these objects.  Well, we are

12     talking about several dozens of thousand houses, several dozens of

13     thousand houses, if we are talking about cottages, if we are talking

14     about deserted houses, and now in this action ... Flash but many more."

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to the next page in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   "We really have to create the most serious strategy how to deal

17     with these problems.  Probably according to international law, it would

18     be some temporary solutions, but temporary which will under such

19     circumstances, and as time goes by, will become permanent, and we will

20     be" --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  "And we will be able to bring our people back,

23     people that have been forced out from Bosnia, but many more we are

24     mentioning today, who will come back from Australia.  So, it is not

25     related only to houses, we are talking about properties, so starting

Page 27240

 1     today, after the implementation of that law, we have the opportunity to

 2     provide complete properties to be used temporarily.  We have to work on

 3     that, on the government session also and in the inner cabinet within the

 4     government's department [sic].  We have to discuss the issues, to avoid

 5     this operation becoming automatically a goal at international level, but

 6     to present it as a positive step forward."

 7             Now, here you're talking about the law that eventually became the

 8     Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property, and you discuss the fact that

 9     this law would be a way to bring Bosnian Croats and Croats from the

10     diaspora into Croatia, that they would settle in these houses that are

11     taken over, the property of Serbs.  Is that right?

12        A.   In your question, you left out just one word, which I have used

13     at least 20 times in this brief passage, and that is the word

14     "temporary."  Yes, so it all stands, we will take over that property.  By

15     law we will preserve it.  It will still remain private property if it was

16     private property at first, and then it would be given for temporary use.

17             So that word "temporary" is the key word here.  This was accepted

18     in the law and that is the form in which the law was adopted.

19        Q.   Well, you said, Temporary, which will under such circumstances,

20     and as time goes by, will become permanent.

21             So what you mean here is that a Croat from Australia will come to

22     Croatia, settle into a property owned by a Serb.  It will initially be

23     labelled a temporary situation, but it will become permanent, and that

24     Croat will say in that house.  That's what you mean here; right?

25        A.   They will remain permanently in Croatia.  As to whether it would

Page 27241

 1     be in that house or some other house, time would show.  Today -- up to

 2     now time has shown that a number of Serbs exchanged or sold their houses.

 3     No person had their property confiscated.  There was always an exchange

 4     or a sale that occurred.

 5        Q.   And earlier you had referred --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Yes.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             If I could tender 65 ter 846.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

12     exhibit number P2711.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P2711 is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm about to move to

15     another topic, so if the Chamber prefers, we can take a break.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you don't think that you deal with it in the

17     next five minutes, then it's best to take the break now.

18             Will take a break and resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Radic, yesterday you were asked by the Chamber whether you

24     could point to a time between August 1995 and December 1996 when there

25     was some general call to inhabit the country, whether of Croat or Serb

Page 27242

 1     ethnicity.  And in your answer you referred to the Law on Areas of

 2     Special State Interest which provided certain incentives such as larger

 3     salaries.  And you said:

 4             "There is not a single article in it which would actually

 5     identify people according to their ethnic backgrounds.  Simply this was

 6     an attempt to revitalize these regions."

 7             And that was at page 40 of yesterday's transcript.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to P2698 now, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Radic, a document is about to come up on your screen.  And

10     I'd like to you confirm that this law called the Law on Areas of Special

11     State Concern, was the one that you were referring to.

12        A.   Yes, this is the one I had in mind.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 7 and page 4 in the B/C/S,

15     where we could see Article 7 of this law.

16        Q.   And paragraph 2 of Article 7, near the bottom of the page, sets

17     out the categories of population that will be stimulated in the areas of

18     special state concern.

19             And the first you can see is:  "Citizens" -- Croatian citizens

20     who have various expert professions and occupations.

21             The second is citizens who are unemployed or have no

22     accommodation.

23             And if we turn the page in the B/C/S, the third category is

24     Croatian emigres, returnees from abroad.

25             And the fourth category is those Croats who have been expelled

Page 27243

 1     from Serbia and Montenegro, as well as Croats who were expelled from the

 2     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3             So when you said yesterday that there wasn't a single article in

 4     this law which would identify people according to their ethnic

 5     background, there actually were a couple of provisions in this law that

 6     identified people according to their ethnic background; right?

 7        A.   If I could just see the previous page once again, in Croatian,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Certainly.  If we can go back, please.

10        A.   Yes.  Article 7 describes the incentive measures for settlement,

11     and here it says citizens of the Republic of Croatia.  This is all the

12     citizens of the Republic of Croatia.  And then, thereafter, it also talks

13     about settlement of those people who may not be citizens of the Republic

14     of Croatia yet.  But, here you can see that it describes settlement of

15     this area, and prior to this, it describes incentive measures for all the

16     citizens of the Republic of Croatia.

17             So certainly there is no exclusion provision of any kind.

18        Q.   Well, this law was neither intended -- it was not intended to

19     either encourage or even allow Croatian Serbs to return to these areas.

20     This was about stimulating the settlement of Croats into these areas,

21     wasn't it?

22        A.   No.  Quite the contrary.  I have to say I disagree with you.  My

23     position is quite the contrary.

24             The goal of this law was for all the citizens of the Republic of

25     Croatia - and this is what the first paragraph of this article says -

Page 27244

 1     citizens of the Republic of Croatia, experts of all the professions and

 2     occupations who can contribute to the economic development of the area.

 3             So we are talking about all the citizens of the Republic of

 4     Croatia.

 5        Q.   Why doesn't it say, then, all the citizens of the Republic of

 6     Croatia?  Because it says citizens of the Republic of Croatia, experts of

 7     various professions and occupations.  And then it says:  "Citizens of the

 8     Republic of Croatia - those who are unemployed or those with no

 9     accommodation."

10             Those are two very specific categories of Croatian citizens.  And

11     then the rest of the article describes categories of ethnic Croats.

12        A.   All other articles of this law talk about returnees.  So

13     everybody who used to live in that region before.  And on top of that, in

14     this Article 7, we also talked about settling of those people who did not

15     live in that area before but they were unoccupied at the time,

16     unemployed, or they were of professions that were relevant for that

17     region at the time.

18             But prior to this, we listed all those who might come back and

19     benefit from this law.

20             So Article 7 simply describes one segment, one segment of people

21     who might come and settle there in addition, and they did not live there

22     before.  But even in this Article, paragraph 1, says: "Citizens of the

23     Republic of Croatia."

24        Q.   Can you please refer me to the provision of this law that talks

25     about returning the people who used to live in that region before.

Page 27245

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I think it might be easier

 2     if the witness is given a hardcopy in Croatian so he can review.  I don't

 3     know how long the actual law is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson will provide him with it.  And if the

 5     witness from his recollection can't answer the question, then he will

 6     have an opportunity to look at that it during the break, the next break,

 7     and then ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember this law well and all

 9     the previous articles.  Even here you can see that some settlements are

10     listed, in which life as such will be stimulated.

11             So this is the law that deals with all the people who live in

12     this area who can come back, who are citizens of the Republic of Croatia,

13     and who are entitled to incentives.

14             If you allow me a second, I might find a provision.

15        Q.   Mr. Radic, I have very limited time.  So I'm going ask you to put

16     the law away for now, you can look at it in the break, and I'm going move

17     on.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could please go to 65 ter 7574.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me can I answer with

20     one single sentence.  I found the answer to your previous question, if

21     Your Honours' allow me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the one single sentence is granted.  Please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Article 1 of this act,

24     which says:

25             "This act determines the areas of the Republic of Croatia in

Page 27246

 1     which reconstruction and development will be incentivised."

 2             So this is Article 1 of this act.

 3             And Article 2 says:

 4             "These areas are determined in order to remove the consequences

 5     of the war and to accelerate the return of refugees and displaced

 6     persons."

 7             We used to describe Croats who moved away as displaced persons,

 8     as refugees referred to Serbs.

 9             So in the first two Articles, have you the answer to your

10     question.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:

12        Q.   Mr. Radic, refugees there did not refer to Serbs, did it?  That

13     referred to refugees from Bosnia because at this time Croatia didn't

14     consider Croatian Serbs living outside of Croatia to be refugees, did

15     they?

16        A.   They were refugees equally, and refugees were also Serbs from

17     Croatia.

18        Q.   If you could look at the document on your screen now.

19             This is a report from the HINA news agency dated the 4th May,

20     1996, right around the time that this law was passed.  And if you could

21     look at where the text after the word "ZAGREB" in all capital letters.

22              "At today's press conference, deputy prime minister and minister

23     of Development and Reconstruction, Jure Radic, spoke about a bill on

24     areas of special state care in which allotting of houses, apartments, and

25     land for agriculture, tax exemptions, and custom privileges, and higher

Page 27247

 1     wages are stimulating measures.  It is one of the strategic laws of

 2     long-term importance, since we are correcting historical injustice, the

 3     minister remarked and mentioned that in 1880, 1217 inhabitants lived in

 4     Knin, 613 of them Croats, and 435 Serbs.  But in 1991 there were 12.331

 5     inhabitants, 1660 of them Croats, and 9.867 Serbs.  He mentioned examples

 6     of a complete disappearance of some Croatian settlements, and he stressed

 7     that from the demographic, economic, and other points of view, the law

 8     covers the whole territory of the Croatian state, although it is

 9     specifically related to two groups of areas:  Areas next to the state

10     border, which were occupied until 1995, and their centre is not more than

11     15 kilometres far from the state borders [sic]; and areas which were

12     occupied and do not belong in the first group."

13             Now, first -- do you recall --

14             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, counsel.

15             Mr. President, we had a 66(B) from the Office of the Prosecutor

16     concerning a variety of documents, and we did receive some disclosure,

17     but we never, I do not believe, received this from the OTP.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I can't tell you off the top of my head.  I can

20     look into it.  But I don't think this falls under the request.  Because I

21     don't believe it falls into any of the categories that were requested.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Well it certainly does fall into the statements of

23     the media which was requested and was disclosed in other instances by the

24     OTP, so certainly it falls into the same category.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, no that wasn't the request.  The request

Page 27248

 1     was statements that refer to particular topics, none of which are

 2     discussed here.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  No, I think --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's, at this moment, the document is there.  What

 5     to do, let's not spend, at this moment, in court, time on whether there

 6     was any violation of any obligation by one of the parties at this moment.

 7     Not to say that we'll not look into the matter, but not fully litigate it

 8     at this moment.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Mr. President.  Thank you.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Radic, the -- my first question is, do you recall giving this

12     statement to the press; and is this report accurate, to the best of your

13     recollection?

14        A.   No, I do not remember that, and having read this now, I can

15     already see that this news report is rather imprecise, as the news

16     reports usually are.

17             But, at that time, on a daily basis, you had a dozen of different

18     information reported in the press concerning our work.  So I do not

19     recall this particular instance precisely.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, it gives quite specific and precise numbers of

21     people who lived in Knin in 1880 versus 1991, and they attribute that

22     information to you.

23             Looking at it now, are any of those figures incorrect, as far as

24     you know?

25        A.   No, I don't believe that they are incorrect.  But I can neither

Page 27249

 1     confirm these numbers nor deny them.  I believe that they do reflect the

 2     situation as it was 100 years ago and 15 years ago.

 3        Q.   So you have no reason to doubt that you did provide these figures

 4     as --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, we have two different matters.

 6     First, whether the -- the witness says, I don't remember this interview

 7     or this statement to the press.  And then he said, I have no reasons to

 8     doubt the numbers.

 9             And then in the next question you say, Therefore you have no

10     doubt that you gave these numbers.  That is mixing up two things.  So you

11     should first specifically ask the witness, Did you ever, in a press

12     conference, make a comparison between ethnic composition in 1880 and

13     1995.

14             I mean, you say, I don't remember.  You say it is imprecise.  Did

15     you ever compare, in terms of numbers, the ethnic composition of the

16     population of Knin in 1880 with the composition in 1995?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

19             This link was missing in your suggestion.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   And do you recall referring to this law as a strategic law aimed

22     at correcting a historical injustice?

23        A.   No, I cannot remember any such details that I may have said

24     during the press conference.  In that period that I was a minister, I

25     probably held about 1000 different press conferences, but, generally

Page 27250

 1     speaking, as a rule, journalists provided their impressions, and I never

 2     read them afterwards.  At least 50 per cent of all the news reports were

 3     very imprecise.  I used to have -- and I still have a rather negative

 4     experience with journalists, and I would never take any news report as a

 5     trustworthy document.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, you said you couldn't remember any such details.  Do

 7     you have any specific reason to doubt that you referred to this law on

 8     this occasion as aimed at correcting a historical injustice?

 9        A.   I can neither doubt it or not.  I simply do not remember the

10     event.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I tender this document, 65 ter 7574.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President we do have an objection to it, so

14     if the Chamber would MFI it at this point, and we can address the 66(B)

15     issue because we pulled up a message that we sent to the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be MFI'd.

17             Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2712.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps the status of marked for identification.

20             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  Can we go to 65 ter 7573, please.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Radic, this is another press report from about a year

23     later, 16 April 1997, from Vjesnik.  And if you could look at the far

24     left hand column and the first full paragraph there under the name, I

25     believe, of the author, Miroslava Rozankovic.

Page 27251

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could move it over -- there is some text

 2     cut off on the left-hand side in the B/C/S, and perhaps --

 3        Q.   And the title of this article is: In May another offer to settle

 4     abandoned Croatian areas.

 5             And the first paragraph says:

 6             "Some 50.000 Croats expelled from BiH, Vojvodina, Srijem, and

 7     Kosovo have so far been accommodated in the areas of special state

 8     concern.  From Kostajnica to Glina and Gvozd on one side; and on the

 9     other from Benkovac, Obrovac, and Karin, across Northern Dalmatia to Knin

10     where there are 30 babies born a month.  Represented by the minister of

11     development and reconstruction, Dr. Jure Radic, Croatia stated that it

12     would readily accept its every expelled citizen, as it is obliged to do

13     according to the constitution.  This state is ready to accept also Croats

14     expelled from the BiH, unless they have the possibility to return to

15     their homes, because they are also Croatian citizens.  As a matter of

16     fact, Croatia has already proved it when, at one point, without any help

17     from abroad, it managed to accommodate as many as half a million refugees

18     and expellees.  Croatia is not afraid of Croats, it welcomes every Croat,

19     and we are all obliged to help in this matter."

20             And then it says those were the words of Minister of

21     Reconstruction and Development, Mr. Jure Radic.

22             Now, this Article written about a year after that law was passed,

23     states that some 50.000 Croats from Bosnia and Serbia had been

24     accommodated in areas of special state concern.  And is -- my question

25     is, is that information accurate, as far as you can recall?

Page 27252

 1        A.   Well, I can't give any precise numbers, but I believe that this

 2     is right.  And nearly everything that is stated here, I would restate

 3     today again.

 4        Q.   So you agree with the passage that I read out and have no reason

 5     to doubt that you said those words at that time; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, I believe this is correct.  There were about 50.000 people

 7     expelled from Bosnia and Herzegovina who could not return to their homes.

 8     Therefore, we provided them with properties that were, for the most part,

 9     state owned, so that they could live there.

10        Q.   Now, this article doesn't say anything about Serbs from the area

11     returning to their homes.  There's just a passage at the end about how

12     Serbs will sell their property in Croatia.

13             And my question for you is:  Can you -- are you able to tell the

14     Chamber specifically how -- or even approximately how many Croatian Serbs

15     had returned to this area between May 1996, when this law was passed, and

16     April 1997, when you gave this statement?

17        A.   Even here, you warned me on a couple of occasions that I

18     shouldn't describe the entire situation in every single answer I give.

19     So probably here, in this particular interview or press conference I gave

20     statement about the people who came from Bosnia and Herzegovina, who were

21     expelled from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  But, at this point, I can say that

22     in that period of time you referred to the number of Serbs who returned

23     was very small.  Certainly much smaller than the 50.000 Croats who came

24     there.  Later on, the numbers changed; but at that time, that number was

25     very small, indeed.

Page 27253

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I tender this document, please,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

 5             Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2713.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P2713 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  Could we go to P464, please.

10        Q.   Mr. Radic, the document that's about to come up on your screen is

11     a transcript of a meeting you had with President Tudjman on the 23rd of

12     August, 1995.  And that's one day after the meeting you had, on the 22nd

13     of August, that you looked at yesterday, the one where you had the map.

14             And this is a meeting that President Tudjman held with certain

15     military officials, and you attended it, and it related to demographics

16     and the placement of various military facilities and military units.

17             And I'd like to go to page 2 in both languages, please.

18             And this is President Tudjman speaking here, part way down this

19     first paragraph, after the pause, three dots in English he says:

20             "It may well be, if we find a proper way for one of the most

21     effective components of state policy to solve our essential problem

22     today, and that is Croatia's demographic situation.  That is why I asked

23     the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Development and Reconstruction,

24     Dr. Radic, to come to this meeting and talk about the demographic

25     situation in Croatia today."

Page 27254

 1             And then a few lines down, he says:

 2             "On the other hand, in order to ... as soon as possible - today

 3     it is not so much a matter of changing the kind of population as of

 4     populating certain areas, certain places, certain areas."

 5             And then he asks you to talk about the situation.

 6             And if we move down to the bottom of the page, you thank the

 7     President.  And then you say:

 8             "I think that all of us know that after the liberation of Croatia

 9     the biggest problem in Croatia is Croatian man.  Simply put, for several

10     reasons there are fewer and fewer Croats every day.  One reason is that

11     many people have emigrated or were forced out in the past for political

12     or economic reasons."

13             Now, just pausing there for a moment, when you say there's fewer

14     Croats every day and you talk about people emigrating or being forced out

15     in the past, is that another reference to the historical injustice that

16     has caused a -- that caused a reduction in the number of Croats over the

17     past, say, 100 years?

18        A.   Yes, yes, they are mentioned, especially during Communist rule.

19        Q.   And if we could go to the next page.  And this is you speaking

20     again, and about six lines down there's a sentence that begins:

21             "But the worst part of this very, very" -- "the worst part of

22     this," sorry, "is a very, very unfavorable distribution of population,

23     that is, of the population that we do have.  That is why we have areas

24     that are almost completely empty in the Croatian territory, where there

25     are almost no Croats."

Page 27255

 1             And then a few lines further down there's a sentence that begins:

 2     "Today ..."

 3             And you say:

 4             "Today we have analysed in detail the liberated territory and

 5     determined the sequence of demographic priorities, that is, the sequence

 6     of the territories that are strategically important for Croatia according

 7     to where there are no Croats, so that we might try in various ways to

 8     populate these areas.  In this sequence, the critical territory is the

 9     one in the narrowest part of Croatia where the planners in Belgrade and

10     elsewhere wanted Croatia to be bisected.  Therefore, from our point of

11     view, the priority areas in terms of building up the population includes

12     the former municipalities of Vrginmost, Vojnic, and part of Karlovac

13     municipality.  That is the territory of Petrova Gora and around that

14     mountain.  In these three municipalities before the war, here on this

15     map, where it is marked bright red, this is where only 4.259 Croats

16     lived, while there were 26.298 Serbs.  This then is an almost completely

17     empty territory and the number one national priority is to populate this

18     territory with Croats and attempt everything possible to create a

19     balance."

20             My first question, Mr. Radic, is:  When you refer to the number

21     of Croats living in this area around Petrova Gora and the number of

22     Serbs, those are the numbers from the 1991 -- or based on the 1991

23     census.  Is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And where you say here that -- that this is the -- this is a

Page 27256

 1     critical territory in the narrowest part of Croatia where the planners in

 2     Belgrade and elsewhere wanted Croatia to be cut, and therefore from our

 3     point of view, the priority areas are the municipalities of Vrginmost,

 4     Vojnic, and Karlovac, here you are explaining the need to fill up these

 5     strategically important areas with Croats as a way to protect Croatia

 6     from the strategic threat that you talk about here, the threat of being

 7     cut.

 8             Is that right?

 9        A.   That's right.  This is an area -- you were reading, and then you

10     stopped before a key sentence, which states that this was a consequence,

11     the fact that this space is empty, of Greater Serbia-conceived policies,

12     while it was deliberately preparing the aggression, this space was

13     emptied.  So when we look at today's structure of Croatia, perhaps it

14     would be a little bit of an anticipating to foresee that all the people

15     would return to their houses.

16             There are too few inhabitants.  Any inhabitants -- this is being

17     said at a military session.  And this was the thinking while thinking of

18     establishing military units, the thinking was to place a military unit in

19     to one of those areas.  We had empty areas, empty accommodation, so it

20     was necessary to bring people from there.  Not only from the sentences

21     but from the context you can see that it would be simple to bring the

22     Croatian Army there tomorrow and accommodate them in those apartments,

23     which are empty, and were previously in the possession of the Yugoslav

24     People's Army.

25        Q.   Just now you mention the fact that there were too few

Page 27257

 1     inhabitants.  But in this passage, you focus on the fact that there were

 2     only 4.259 Croats and you say:  "The number one national priority is to

 3     populate this territory with Croats."

 4             Here you're not talking about inhabitants in general.  You're

 5     talking about moving Croats into these areas, aren't you?

 6        A.   We always have to stay in the context of the story.  Why I would

 7     talk to the military leadership about the return of the Serbs?  I spoke

 8     about that in a different place.  I spoke about that to the government.

 9     Each type of meeting has its own topic.  Here we're talking about

10     locating military units.  Why we would put them in Zagreb?  I said let's

11     go to Vojnic, where we have enough space and the area is empty.  We would

12     need -- when talking about education, we would say, Let's send teachers

13     there is.  When we're talking about doctors, then we would talk about a

14     specific location where you would need to send doctors.

15             So, depending on the type of meeting, that would be the topic

16     that would be discussed, as appropriate.

17        Q.   Mr. Radic, it was discussed about moving certain military

18     facilities into these areas, but that was a way to bring Croats into

19     those areas to fulfil the larger goal.  And I'd like to go back a page,

20     again, to where -- in this document, to where President Tudjman says,

21     near the end of his speech, after he says, "Today it is not so much a

22     matter in the change of the kind of population as of populating certain

23     areas," he says:

24             "This means, if you put large commands, training institutions,

25     and so on, in certain places, dozens and hundreds of people will go there

Page 27258

 1     who will have to have families and so on, and immediately the situation,

 2     the life, and so on, will be different."

 3             President Tudjman here is talking about moving military units and

 4     institutions into these areas as a means to fulfill the larger goal of

 5     populating these areas with Croats; right?

 6        A.   I didn't find that here, what you were reading here.  I could not

 7     follow it on my page as having the President say it in quite that way.

 8     He said the opposite.  Not that we -- not that we're having demographic

 9     problems now, but we don't have people anymore.

10        Q.   Well, it's the last few lines of the second-last paragraph, where

11     President Tudjman is still speaking, right in the middle of the page.

12     But I'm not interested in pursuing this point.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to --

14             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I would ask that the

15     witness be allowed to look at that, get himself oriented on this page,

16     and answer the question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness is entitled to answer the question.

18             Ms. Gustafson, could you guide him to where he may find the

19     line --

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Have you found -- sorry.

21        Q.   Have you found the passage?

22        A.   If you're asking about it, it says today it is not so much a

23     matter of changing the kind of population as of populating certain

24     places.

25             So we're not talking so much about changing the population but of

Page 27259

 1     populating certain places.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to give the interpreters the opportunity to

 3     translate the words you and the others are speaking.

 4             Ms. Gustafson.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   That's right, Mr. Radic, because, right now, in this area, there

 7     was essentially nobody.  And as you said, the number one national

 8     priority was to populate this territory with Croats; right?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go back again to the next page.

10        A.   The first priority was populating the area.  At first it was not

11     realistic to expect the displaced Serbs to return within two, three, or

12     five days.  And since this was so, it was necessary to bring those

13     people, those citizens that we did have available, so that the area is

14     populated.  And the most important thing, the military units, some

15     10 kilometres away from across the border, were still there where the war

16     had not been ended.  Mladic was still operating with his military units,

17     only some 10 kilometres away, across the border.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  I apologise, Mr. President, there is a phrase that

20     the witness continues to use that I think -- he may want to repeat just

21     so we're sure on the interpretation of the phrase when the -- the

22     reference in page 50, line 23, "not realistic to expect the ..."

23     something Serbs.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you -- I read part of your answer and then ask

25     you to repeat again what you then said.

Page 27260

 1             You said:

 2             "The first priority was populating the area.  At first it was not

 3     realistic to expect ..."  And then you were talking about apparently

 4     persons returning.

 5             Could you repeat, what persons you refer to?  So not realistic to

 6     expect the ... to return.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation], first of all, it's not realistic

 8     to expect that the Serbs who had lived in that area and who left the area

 9     from the time of Storm to return in the short-term.  It is not realistic

10     to expect some of them to return at all.  Which ones?  Those who had

11     taken part in the armed aggression against Croatia, members of the

12     Yugoslav People's Army, members of the paramilitary units, and so on and

13     so forth.

14             So our estimates and the estimates of the international community

15     were that it was not realistic that such people would return.  This is

16     what is being said in this sentence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, we are primarily verifying the

18     translation and properly understand what you said.

19             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Radic, back to what you said about this bright red area

22     on the map that you appear to have again at this meeting.  You talk about

23     the territory of Petrova Gora, which includes the former municipalities

24     of Vrginmost, Vojnic, and part of Karlovac, and you say this is the part

25     marked bright red.

Page 27261

 1             Now, this is the part of the territory where, the day before, you

 2     and President Tudjman, had talked about not even 10 percent of Serbs

 3     being there ever again; right?

 4        A.   I drew yesterday on the map the area that I had shown to

 5     President Tudjman when we were talking about the idea of not having more

 6     than 10 percent of Serbs in the future.  So I'm staying on the map that I

 7     showed yesterday.

 8             At the meeting of the military leadership the map was evidently

 9     more precise than the one that we used during our internal conversation

10     the day before.  So this more precise map, I think the area covered was

11     not identical.  What we're talking about here is a smaller part of larger

12     area.  The day before with President Tudjman, I talked about the area

13     between Krupe and Una.  And here actually we're talking about two

14     municipalities, the municipality of Vojnic and Vrginmost, for which we do

15     state quite precise figures.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Radic, what Ms. Gustafson asked you is whether

17     these municipalities, that -- whether that was part of the territory

18     where you and President Tudjman had talked about in the context of the,

19     not even 10 per cent.

20             From a very long answer, I take it that a simple "yes" would give

21     us the information Ms. Gustafson is seeking.  Because in a rather long

22     explanation, you say it was a smaller part, that was already included in

23     the question; and it was about the territory you and President Tudjman

24     talked about, which was already in the question as well.  So a simple

25     "yes" would have given us, perhaps, less detailed information but would

Page 27262

 1     certainly have answered the question, because summarizing what you said,

 2     it is a yes, if you carefully look at the question.

 3             Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could go to the

 5     next page, please, of this document.

 6        Q.   And this is you speaking again, Mr. Radic.  And you say:

 7             "This is a critical point.  The area below this, the Slunj area

 8     where Croats should be returned is on the same crisis level.  It is also

 9     quite empty but luckily, there were no Serbs there or there were very

10     few.  Therefore, from our point of view, this territory is on the same

11     level, this red and blue area in the narrowest part of Croatia where

12     Croatia was completely cut."

13             Now when you say "luckily there were no Serbs or very few Serbs

14     there," that's a reference to the fact that it will be easier to populate

15     this part of the territory with Croats, because there were very few Serbs

16     there before.

17        A.   No.  When I said "luckily," luckily in this area there were fewer

18     aggressors.  We're talking about a couple of days after Storm.

19     Colloquially speaking, when we're talking about Serbs, at least a half of

20     them were aggressors in Croatia, so fortunately there weren't many such

21     people in Slunj.  Unfortunately, though, Slunj was completely destroyed.

22        Q.   Well, unlike the areas of Vrginmost and Vojnic, which were

23     predominantly Serb in 1991, Slunj was - I'm looking now - about

24     64 per cent Croat and about 29 per cent Serb in 1991; right?

25        A.   I assume so.  I have no reason to doubt that fact.

Page 27263

 1        Q.   And can you tell me specifically the circumstances you're

 2     referring to that caused you to conclude that there were fewer aggressors

 3     in this area?  Specifically.

 4        A.   Absolutely.  It wasn't the Croats who were attacking Croatia.

 5     There was a small number -- I mean, I don't understand what the point of

 6     your question is.  I didn't understand, of course, that the Croats from

 7     Slunj were not attacking Croatia.  The Serbs occupied Slunj and

 8     completely destroyed it.

 9        Q.   Well, I asked you whether, when you said there were fewer Croats

10     in Slunj -- or, sorry, fewer Serbs or very few Serbs in Slunj, if that

11     was a reference to the ethnic breakdown of Slunj, essentially, and you

12     said, No, there were more aggressors there.  And I would like to ask you

13     specifically the circumstances you were talking about that caused you to

14     conclude there were more aggressors there.

15        A.   I don't understand your question --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be some confusion.  I do understand the

17     witness to say, that if it's -- if you're lucky that there are not many

18     Serbs, that since the witness told us that the Serbs were the aggressors,

19     that means that there are less aggressors as well.  And to that extent,

20     put Serbs on an equal footing with -- with aggressors.

21             Now, if Serbs are the aggressors, that's at least how I

22     understand it, that's it's not primarily on the basis of ethnicity that

23     you are happy that there are less, but since this ethnicity appeared to

24     be the aggressors, that you were happy with less aggressors.

25             It's a bit -- perhaps a bit of a semantic issue.  But this is how

Page 27264

 1     I understood your testimony, and this is also how I understood your lack

 2     of understanding of the follow-up question.

 3             Ms. Gustafson.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Mr. Radic, moving on to the next paragraph on this page you say:

 6             "The next priority, the third on the scale, depending on whether

 7     we should include into our considerations the territory of Herceg-Bosna,

 8     or Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could turn the page.

10        Q.   "... the third priority, the third on the scale, depending on

11     whether we should consider the territories of Herceg-Bosna and Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina.  It could be rotated more or less towards Croatia's depth.

13             "Therefore, if the liberated territory around Livanjsko Polje,

14     Glamoc, Kupres, Grahovo, and Drvar is populated with Croats in the

15     future, then the area around Knin would become of smaller significance."

16             Now, Mr. Radic, here you're explaining that if the areas in

17     Bosnia that border on the Knin region can be populated with Croats, then

18     that helps to protect the areas around Knin, because it would be further

19     into the depth of Croatian-populated territory.

20             Is that right?

21        A.   Yes.  At the time, that area was freed by the Croatian Defence

22     Council and in the strategic sense of looking at Croatia there were no

23     major defence threats if Croats were on the other side of the border.  As

24     opposite to the other border where Serbs were on the other side of the

25     border and where a serious war was still continuing.  So this is a

Page 27265

 1     conversation before the Dayton Accords.

 2        Q.   And this part of Bosnia that you refer to - Glamoc, Kupres,

 3     Grahovo, and Drvar - that in 1991 that was an area with a heavy majority

 4     of Serbs; right?

 5        A.   That is correct.  But generally speaking the population there was

 6     very sparse.  And similar to the situation in Croatia, many of them were

 7     members of the Yugoslav People's Army in these areas next to the border.

 8        Q.   And by this point, in August of 1995, most of the Serbs from

 9     those municipalities had left, in connection with their liberation by

10     Croatian forces and Bosnian Muslim forces; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.  The situation was similar to that in Croatia.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P463 now.

14        Q.   And now, Mr. Radic, we're going back to the conversation you had

15     the day before with President Tudjman, the one that you looked at

16     yesterday.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 35 of the English, and

18     page 55 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   Now, here, Mr. Radic, at the top of the page, you're talking to

20     the President.  And you say:

21             "You did a perfect job, history will be the judge of that.

22     Still, the coming period is very important.  You have to prepare Croatia

23     for the future time, that is the main task.  Croatia has to avoid facing

24     the situation like Yugoslavia did after ..."

25             And then it trails off.

Page 27266

 1             And you continue:

 2             "That often happens after the period characterised by the strong

 3     personalities.  That is very important.  We have to create conditions to

 4     prevent Croats from ..." and it trails off again.

 5             And you say:

 6             "It was a beautiful picture to see the people from Varazdin and

 7     Split entering ... Knin together.  On the one wall in Kupres, the

 8     message, 'Cedo, you will not come back' can be seen.  Our future has to

 9     be built on such things ..."

10             Now, the name Cedo, short for Cedomir, is a typical Serb name;

11     right?

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if I may.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             One second.

15             MR. MISETIC:  I think the witness has also picked up on it, but

16     there is now a --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if there is something that the witness picked

18     up, then we'll invite him, rather than you at this moment.

19             Yes, a question was put to you, and is there anything --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two remarks on my behalf.

21     This may be a mistake where it says "Kupres" because prior to that you

22     can see on a wall in Knin.  And I said that the people from Varazdin and

23     Split came together in Knin, and then in Knin on one wall it says, "Cedo,

24     will not come back."

25             But the point I wanted to make to the President was that Croats

Page 27267

 1     from different areas were together, and it is actually in a dialect, "you

 2     will not come back," in a dialect of Zagorje, a region in Croatia.  So I

 3     said here, Even Croats from Zagorje, and one of the accused here are from

 4     Zagorje, so they came to Knin together with people from Split.  So we are

 5     talking about unity of different areas of Croatia.

 6             This is what my point was.  I wanted to underline that people

 7     from Varazdin who speak in Kajkavian dialect of Croatian wrote on the

 8     wall, "Cedo you will not come back," [B/C/S spoken], but this is in the

 9     dialect; that is my point.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, he has explained what I was going to

11     say, so that's fine.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I took it that ...

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm confused here.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So am I, a bit.

15             Could you perhaps, then, clearly explain what those words, "Cedo

16     you will not come back," mean exactly.

17             Who or what is Cedo?  And could you please better explain that.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cedo meant Chetnik.  So you can

19     translate it into, "Chetnik, you will not come back."  You will not

20     return.

21             So colloquially speaking the word "Cedo" was used to designate

22     Chetnik.  So this was the worst possible version of occupier of Croatia.

23             But as I said, the point of this conversation I had with the

24     President was for me to explain to him that the units that came to Knin

25     were not only for -- from Dalmatia, but in the defence of Croatia we had

Page 27268

 1     a unity of all the Croatian areas.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you agree with me that, "Cedo, you will not

 3     come back," is language which could be understood in various ways?

 4     Occupier, don't come back; or Chetniks - that is a derogatory word for

 5     people of a certain ethnicity - don't come back?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, whoever read this

 7     message understood this in one single way, and this was, Occupier, you

 8     will not return.  So there were different names for Serbs, but if you

 9     said "Cedo," it -- it meant Chetnik.  It is similar in Croatian.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand, but you say it would be

11     understood by everyone as "occupier."  I asked you whether you would

12     agree with me that the language in itself, not referring to occupier but

13     to Chetniks, could also be understood as a reference to Serb population.

14     Not to say that -- you say what you intended to say, but I'm asking

15     whether you agree with me that the language in itself is not unambiguous.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to say.  We would have

17     to analyse it more in depth.  Possibly there could have been people who

18     could understood it in different ways; there, I agree with you.  But the

19     majority of people at that time in Croatia would understood it as

20     referring strictly to the occupiers.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yesterday you told us that it was difficult

22     for you to tell us what was on other people's mind.  But here you can

23     tell us what -- I'm not arguing about this, but --

24             Yes, please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  Could we go to page 24 of the English

Page 27269

 1     and page 36 of the B/C/S, please.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Radic, this is a portion of the transcript where you and

 3     President Tudjman talk about the division of Bosnia.

 4             And you say -- and this is at the top in the B/C/S and in the

 5     middle in the English:

 6             "Look, we can get Kupres back.  It is unreasonable that they do

 7     not want to return but still stay in the hotels.  They say that some hill

 8     above them has not been liberated yet.  They call it Demirovac, which is

 9     directly above Kupres.  As I was told, there were Serb villages in this

10     area, which are now being settled by the Muslims.  Our people refuse

11     that.  We have to find a way to return people over there.  Kupres, it is

12     not strategically my priority, but this hinterland of Dubrovnik, that is

13     also important question.  We have to keep Stolac Croat, probably Trebinje

14     if ..."

15             And then you say:  "This is the priority, just as Petrova Gora as

16     banovina."

17             And President Tudjman says:  "If we could do something with

18     Jajce."

19             And you say:  "That will be difficult with the Muslims."

20             And President Tudjman says:  "The best solution is to make a deal

21     with Muslims.  On the other hand, our strategy has to focus on keeping

22     them close to us and convert them to Croats gradually.  That will be very

23     difficult, but not as with Serbs today, because Serbs had Belgrade and

24     power; they won't."

25             Now, first of all, you're describing that you're having trouble

Page 27270

 1     moving the Croats from Kupres back to Kupres, because there are Muslims

 2     living in areas where Serbs used to live, and the Croats from Kupres

 3     don't want to move back for that reason.

 4             Is that right?

 5        A.   Kupres was majority populated the by Croats prior to the war, and

 6     an I knew a lot about this situation because they spent their refugee

 7     years in Baska Voda, which is my place of birth.  So I talked to them on

 8     many occasions, and I said to them as soon as the conditions are met,

 9     please go back home.  And then they said they didn't want to go back

10     because the Demirovac was still occupied by Serbs.  Serbs fired still on

11     Kupres from Demirovac, and this is what they said.  They said this is why

12     we are staying still in hotels in Baska Voda.  So I told the president

13     here, Let us do something about this because their houses are empty, and

14     they should be able to go back.  Why stay in the hotels?

15        Q.   Well, earlier you said that the Serb population had left this

16     area, and it had been liberated.  And in this passage, you say that:

17             "There are Serb villages which are now being settled by Muslims

18     and our people refuse that."

19        A.   When I say "our people do not want to," I meant our people do not

20     want to go back to their homes.  Not settle other areas.  They do not

21     need other areas since they have their own homes there.

22        Q.   Now, here, again -- or here President Tudjman refers to the

23     strategy of keeping Muslims close and gradually converting them to

24     Croats.  And he contrasts that with the Serbs who had Belgrade and power.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I would just ask that the

Page 27271

 1     translation of that word has been translated and "converts to Croats."

 2     But there may be a challenge to that.  And if we look in the original,

 3     perhaps the witness can explain what he think that is that means.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Perhaps the witness could just read that sentence

 5     out.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If could you guide the witness then --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the President meant.

 8     He spoke about this often.  He said that Muslims in Bosnia were a

 9     strategic partner to Croats.  And when he said "to Croatise them," he

10     meant to make them more European so that the Muslims in Bosnia, together

11     with Croats, should become elements of the western civilisation.  This is

12     what I think I can say to make it as simple as possible.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:

14        Q.   Okay.  And If you could also just read that sentence out, the

15     second sentence of President Tudjman's speech that begins, "On the other

16     hand ..."

17        A.   "That will be very difficult.  They will not be easy, but it will

18     be an easier problem than it is -- than the Serbs are to today because

19     the Serbs had Belgrade and power, and these will not have."

20             Do you want me to comment on this?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that when you refer to the second sentence

22     that it is a sentence which may not be the second sentence in Croatian,

23     because at least I do see a full stop after -- in the beginning.

24             You are invited to read where it says:  "On the other hand, our

25     strategy has to focus ..."

Page 27272

 1             Could you please read that portion slowly.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, so the second half of the

 3     first sentence which says:

 4             "But strategically we have to count on the fact that there is no

 5     other way but to carry the Muslims on our backs and to gradually Croatise

 6     them."

 7             I believe I explained what this means in my answer.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think that's clear now what is in the

 9     original language.  One sentence is translated as two separate sentences.

10     I don't think that's the problem, but that caused the confusion.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Yesterday you were shown a transcript from December of 1996 that

14     had to do with the reintegration of Eastern Slavonia and how the Serbs --

15     what to do with the Serbs in that area.  And there was discussion about

16     buying their properties versus allowing them to return.

17             Do you recall that general discussion?

18        A.   Yes, I recall that discussion from yesterday.

19             But yesterday I wasn't aware that we spoke about

20     Eastern Slavonia.  Now you reminded me, because I remember some names

21     from there.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Now, if we could go to P466, please.

23        Q.   And this is a transcript from the 30th of August, 1995.  And just

24     a preliminary question:  At this time, meaning the late August 1995, the

25     only part of Croatia that had any substantial percentage of Serbs was

Page 27273

 1     Eastern Slavonia.

 2             Is that right?  And if could you please answer with a yes or no,

 3     that would be helpful.

 4        A.   No.  There were also other parts of Croatia, for example, the

 5     region around Delnice.  The Serbs stayed there throughout the war as

 6     loyal citizens of Republic of Croatia, and they were majority population

 7     there, so my answer is no.  Srpska Morovica [phoen] and the surrounding

 8     region, the Serbs had majority there throughout the aggression, and these

 9     Serbs were on the side of Croatia.

10        Q.   And if you could just briefly say what part of Croatia that area

11     is, and roughly how many Serbs lived there at the time.

12        A.   This is a region between Ogulin, northern side of the mountain

13     Bijelo Lacica [phoen], there was about a dozen villages with several

14     thousands Serbs who were majority there.  I visited them at the time.  I

15     assisted in the reconstruction of an Orthodox monastery there after the

16     war, and I know that they stayed there as loyal citizens of Croatia

17     throughout the war.

18        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to page four of the English and page 8 of

19     the B/C/S here.

20             Now, Mr. Radic, you were not present at this meeting.  I would

21     just like to show you a short passage from it.

22             It starts where Mr. Valentic is speaking.  And that's at the

23     bottom in the English.  And here they're talking about the terms of a

24     peaceful settlement in Eastern Slavonia.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have the right page in English?

Page 27274

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I think so, Your Honour.  It's at the bottom of

 2     the page, Mr. Valentic speaking.  At the top in the B/C/S.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we get the remainder of the text in B/C/S

 4     on the next page.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, I believe it's at the top in the B/C/S.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, now I see it.  Thank you.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   And Mr. Valentic says:

 9             "I do not know much about these problems, but I know from our

10     department, because it is often mentioned that there is a big number of

11     Serbs from Western Slavonia that live in the area of Baranja and

12     Vukovar."

13             And then someone says:  "Around 30.000 of them."

14             And he says:

15             "So, it means that we should expect the request for their return

16     to western Slavonia."

17             And President Tudjman says:

18             "That is a special problem, and we are going to concentrate on

19     it."

20             And if we go to the next page on the English Mr. Valentic says:

21             "Yes, I am only warning you because I think this is one of

22     important problems, as well as economic issues."

23             And then President Tudjman says:

24             "The next thing I wanted to say is that we should and we could

25     put it like this - Serbs that come from Bosnia and from other places,

Page 27275

 1     they should leave."

 2             And someone says:  "Yes."

 3             And Mr. Valentic says:  "What, together with our Serbs?"

 4             And President Tudjman says:

 5             "Together with our Serbs, and we have to be very flexible about

 6     it because of the international community.  We should suggest do replace

 7     them with" --

 8             Sorry, this is the next page in the B/C/S.

 9             "We should suggest to replace them with Croats in Vojvodina and

10     Serbia."

11             And then someone says:  "But we cannot write it down."

12             And President Tudjman says:  "What?"

13             And Mr. Milas says:

14             "Why?  That option has been carried out always after the war."

15             And then President Tudjman says:

16             "Look, it is better not to complicate life for them and for us."

17             And then Mr. Milas says:

18             "That is a so-called option that exists in all international

19     agreements after the First World War."

20             Now, I understand you were not at this meeting, but as a member

21     of the Croatian leadership and as someone deeply involved in demographic

22     and population issues, I presume you were aware that the Croatian

23     leadership was considering exchanging the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia for

24     Croats in the Vojvodina and Serbia and conducting a population exchange.

25             Did you know about that?

Page 27276

 1        A.   No, I didn't know that.  But having read this now, I believe that

 2     you've missed the point of this topic.

 3             Here they talked about Serbs who were not Croatian citizens and

 4     who could not become citizens of Croatia.  They did not meet the

 5     conditions.

 6             So these were Serbs from Bosnia who came to the Danube region of

 7     Croatia.  This is what is stated in the first sentence.  So these are not

 8     Croatian citizens, and they had no conditions to apply to acquire the

 9     Croatian citizens.  So this is my understanding, but I obviously have to

10     make a reservation because I wasn't present at the meeting.  In the first

11     sentence somebody said what about Serb from Bosnia?  So this was the

12     point, the Serbs from Croatia stayed in Croatia.  They are Croatian

13     citizens.

14        Q.   Well, if we could go to the previous page in the B/C/S.

15     President Tudjman does say that:

16             "We should put it like this, Serbs that came from Bosnia and from

17     other places, they should leave."

18             And then Mr. Valentic says:  "What, together with our Serbs?"

19             Now that reference to "our Serbs" can only mean a reference to

20     Croatian Serbs; right?

21        A.   I wasn't present at the meeting, so I cannot comment on the

22     detail, but I was here drawn to the fact that the President talked about

23     Serbs who came there.

24             But as I said, I wasn't present, so I do not have the full

25     picture.  But later on I was personally charged with reintegration of the

Page 27277

 1     Croatian Danube region.  I was, myself, president of the commission for

 2     reintegration, and this is the only successful reintegration example

 3     worldwide, where the Serbs stayed and Croats came back.

 4             So when you asked me if I knew what -- that there was a plan to

 5     move them out, I know that there was no plan to move them out, but the

 6     plan was for them to stay.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we go to 65 ter 4661, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, how much time your next topic take,

10     approximately because we're at a point --

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This is the same topic, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Same topic, yes.  Because we have to take a break

13     soon.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   Now, this, Mr. Radic, is a transcript of a meeting you had with

16     President Tudjman on the 28th of January, 1996.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 7 in the English and

18     page 28 in the B/C/S, please.

19        Q.   And right at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, Mr. Radic, you

20     say:

21             "My logic in thinking this over is to find the quickest way of

22     returning the Croats to Vukovar."

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we turn the page.

24        Q.   "This is the question I have been asking myself, hence the idea

25     was at what pace can we return the Croats?"

Page 27278

 1             And then if we go to the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, you

 2     say:

 3             "It would be good if we could issue written decisions in advance

 4     to the people that we wish to ... part of this is an idea that we force

 5     some of the residents of Posavina who will not be returning to Posavina,

 6     into that space, because I see no other way of placing it under our

 7     control but to ..."

 8             And then the President" --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Counsel, could you give us a page

10     reference on that.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, it's the next page in English.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Oh.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I apologise.

14        Q.   And then the President says:

15             "Or to exchange these Serbs for our Croats in Backa."

16             Now Backa is an area in the Vojvodina in Serbia; right?

17        A.   Yes, Backa is in Vojvodina.

18        Q.   And here you and President Tudjman are discussing ways to

19     increase the number of Croats and reduce the number of Serbs in

20     Eastern Slavonia by, for example, forcing Bosnian Croats from the

21     Posavina into that area, or exchanging Serbs in Eastern Slavonia for

22     Croats in the Vojvodina.

23             Is that right?

24        A.   The first part of this conversation that you read is that I note

25     that I don't really expect that Croats would really return to that area,

Page 27279

 1     that native Croatians, those from Vukovar, would not be coming back in

 2     the same way that the Serbs from Vojnici would not be coming back.  So we

 3     have empty apartments, and at the same time we have Croats from Posavina

 4     who are somewhere.  It's better then for them to go to Vukovar than

 5     somewhere else.  But on the margins, we're also referring to those

 6     people, those Serbs who do not wish to accept Croatian authority.  We had

 7     that earlier when Croats from Backa and Srijem exchanged their homes with

 8     Serbs from Western Slavonia.  This was not something that was encouraged

 9     by us, but this was something that was initiated on their part.  I know

10     many examples of Serbs, even from Zadar, who were JNA officers and had

11     lovely houses in Zadar.  They escaped from Croatia not during Storm but

12     before.  They came to Vojvodina, and then they exchanged houses with the

13     Croats in Vojvodina.  They moved to Vojvodina, and the Croats went to

14     Zadar, for example.  But this was before the peaceful reintegration.

15             I told the President, on the basis of facts, my concerns that

16     many Croats who spent eight years being as displaced persons in Zagreb

17     would not want to go back to Vukovar but would stay in Zagreb because

18     they already had jobs in Zagreb, their children were going to school.

19     This was something that happened in large numbers.  It was not individual

20     during the war, another life happens, where then preconditions are

21     created for a person not to come back.

22        Q.   Just to go back to an earlier part of your answer.  You said you

23     knew plenty examples of Serbs, for example, from Zadar, who had lovely

24     houses in Zadar, they escaped from Croatia, they came to Vojvodina, and

25     then they exchanged houses with the Croats.

Page 27280

 1             But President Tudjman here isn't talking about people who have

 2     already left the areas that they lived in, exchanging houses.  He is

 3     talking about exchanging people; right?

 4        A.   No.  What he is talking is that we had the experience from

 5     five years before, or three years before, that, when the Croatian came

 6     into power, the person who was in the JNA or somewhere, they're not going

 7     to stay in Croatia.  They left Zadar, they left Vojnic, and they would

 8     also leave Vukovar.  This is what we're talking about.  Once we establish

 9     power, we know.  We have the experience.  Persons like that left before

10     and they're going to go any way.  So if they're going to go, it would be

11     better to have them exchange their property, then have this peaceful

12     reintegration.  We were talking about empty properties -- well, look, all

13     the policemen in Croatia were Serbs.  I don't know ten Croat policemen in

14     Croatia.  So most of them left.  Not all of them, but many of them were

15     brought there from other areas.  They're not natives, and we're not even

16     referring to the JNA here.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, I'm looking at the clock.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's fine, Your Honour.  This is a good time.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  For scheduling purposes, I would like to invite the

20     usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

21             We'll have a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, as far as time is concerned.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I think I need about another

25     20 minutes.

Page 27281

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  20 minutes.  Yes, that makes it approximately the

 2     two sessions, as you announced.

 3             If you could save a bit more time, that would be appreciated, but

 4     you will not take much time after the break.

 5             We'll have a break and resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             If we could look at P2536, please.

12        Q.   Mr. Radic, the document that's about to come on your screen is a

13     text of a speech that President Tudjman gave in Vukovar, at the Vukovar

14     railway station, on the 8th of June, 1997.  And according to the text,

15     there was a Croatian government delegation there.

16             Do you happen to recall now whether you were present at this

17     speech?

18        A.   Absolutely, yes, I remember.

19        Q.   Now, if we could go to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the

20     B/C/S.

21             And this is the first full paragraph in the B/C/S, and it's the

22     third paragraph in the English that begins:  "Ladies and gentlemen ..."

23             And President Tudjman says:

24             "Ladies and gentlemen, all those Serbs who are citizens of

25     Croatia, who have taken Croatian citizenship and who are living in this

Page 27282

 1     county and the neighbouring Osijek-Baranja county, and the entire

 2     Danubian area, if they want to return to their homes in western parts of

 3     Croatia from Pakrac to Knin, they will be allowed to return.  About

 4     14.500 have already returned.  If they do not want to return, we shall

 5     give them compensation so that they can go wherever they wish."

 6              "Out of humanitarian reasons Croatia will resolve individual

 7     cases of Serbs who fled Croatia, despite the fact that I, as president,

 8     personally invited them to stay.  Out of humanitarian reasons we will

 9     resolve their cases so they can return to Croatia to rejoin their

10     families.

11             "Of course, there can be no question of 200.000 or 150.000 people

12     returning, because then we would again have conflict and war.  Nobody in

13     the world can force us to do that.

14             "In any case, they themselves - 90 per cent of them - do not wish

15     to return.  But such is history.  After World War II around one and a

16     half million people - those so-called [sic] Turks and Muslims - left this

17     region for turkey, and around 1 million Greeks went to Greece, and so on.

18             "Following World War II over 12 million people have been

19     displaced throughout Europe.  Not every evil is wholly evil.  Out of

20     every evil, some good may come.  So, let us, first of all, create

21     conditions for a peaceful life for the Croatian people, the Serb and

22     other ethnic communities in Croatia.  Let us create conditions for

23     normalisation of good-neighbourly relations between Croatia and Serbia

24     and Yugoslavia along the lines of - as I wrote 20 years ago -

25     Scandinavisation of the area based on mutual recognition of nations and

Page 27283

 1     mutual respect, and then ethnic minorities will enjoy complete freedom

 2     and quality."

 3             When President Tudjman says there is no question of 200.000 or

 4     150.000 people returning, he is referring to the Croatian Serbs living

 5     outside Croatia at that time.

 6             Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.  He is saying that there is no likelihood that all of the

 8     150.000 people would come back, because a large number among them is of

 9     people who were directly connected to the aggression on Croatia.  He is

10     aware that those who were commanding or participated in the aggression

11     against Croatia would not return.  I mean, this is realistic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Again, you've gone beyond the question that I asked,

13     so please focus on answering just the specific question.

14             So when he says -- and when he says:

15             "There's no question of these Croatian Serbs returning, because

16     then we would again have conflict and war," that reflects his view that

17     it would result in a strategic threat to Croatia if these people were

18     allowed to return; right?

19        A.   Absolutely.  If the officers of the JNA would return, of course,

20     we would be threatened.  I don't see anything that would be disputable

21     then.

22             He said that some people would return.  15.000 or so.  But not

23     all of them, first of all, because they did not wish to return, and,

24     secondly, because we did not wish for the aggressors to come back.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

Page 27284

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, again there is a translation issue,

 2     and I apologise to Ms. Gustafson, but there's a word that the witness is

 3     using that is not in the English translation but is in the original.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And?

 5             MR. MISETIC:  It's right before the 150 or 200.000.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.

 7             In the original text it -- translation of the text?  Is that --

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  If you look at --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The original is the English just --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The original is the English.

12             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sure that President Tudjman spoke in Croatian,

13     so I don't know ...

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Right, but this text came from an English report,

15     and we translated into Croatian.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Then we would have to check exactly, because this

17     is it precisely the dilemma.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- could you point at where the difference,

19     in your view, is, Mr. Misetic.  Because if it is not a problem between

20     Croatian and English, then it may be a problem between English and

21     Croatian.

22             MR. MISETIC:  In Croatian it says:

23             "We cannot talk anymore about all 150 or 200.000 returning."

24             And in the English it says:

25             "We cannot talk about 150 to 200.000 returning."

Page 27285

 1             I think there is a difference.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And, Your Honour, I apologise, I believe that

 3     these are both originals.  We found them separately.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Both originals.  So then we have a problem, because

 5     nowhere in the bottom it says that the authoritative is --

 6             Okay.  That is on the record, now, that we are looking at two

 7     different versions and which one refers to return of all, and then the

 8     number, whereas the other does not.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:

11        Q.   Now just going back to an answer you just give, Mr. Radic.  You

12     said:

13             "He said that some people would return, 15.000 or so."

14             Was that number 15.000, was that a number that was considered an

15     acceptable number for return?

16        A.   No, no.  It would have been better if more people were to have

17     returned.  At that time I was the minister for returns, so it would have

18     been better for more people to return.  But, obviously, it was necessary

19     for the conditions to ripen and to be created for larger numbers of

20     people to return.  I personally would not be happy with 14 or 15.000 only

21     returning.  I would prefer for this figure to be bigger.

22        Q.   So when you referred to the number 15.000, that wasn't your view,

23     that was a number President Tudjman used; is that right?

24        A.   No.  I quoted what President Tudjman said at the time in Vukovar,

25     and he said 14.500.  You're asking me to comment on the

Page 27286

 1     President Tudjman's speech which he gave.  I didn't give any speech at

 2     the time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, let me tell you how I at least

 4     understand this line.

 5             About 14 and a half thousand have already returned.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Your Honour, I was referring to an answer

 7     the witness gave.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if that's the case, that was unclear to me,

 9     but --

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'll just move on.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if it was clear to everyone, let's proceed.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   And, Mr. Radic, when President Tudjman talks about 12 million

14     people being displaced after World War II and then says out of every evil

15     some good may come, he's referring to the population displacements after

16     World War II as a good that came out of the evil of that war; is that

17     right?

18        A.   President Tudjman is a historian; I'm an engineer.  I cannot

19     really comment on these historical numbers and theories.

20        Q.   Fair enough.  And yesterday you were asked questions by the

21     Chamber on this general topic, and you said that you wanted as large a

22     number of people to return as possible, and you said that this included

23     Serbs and that increasingly reached the conclusion that the correct thing

24     to do was to offer everyone to return.

25             Now, at this time, in June of 1997, it was not the view of the

Page 27287

 1     leadership that everyone should return, or that the -- it was not the

 2     view of the leadership that all the Croatian Serbs outside of Croatia

 3     should return, and that is reflected by President Tudjman's speech;

 4     right?

 5        A.   That is correct, with the explanation that, in order for somebody

 6     to return, at least two steps have to be made, accept Croatian

 7     citizenship, become a Croatian citizen, and to submit a request for

 8     return.  Return is a question of free will.  It's not something that can

 9     be a result of force.  We cannot force somebody to return.  They have to

10     take Croatian citizenship and submit a request to return.

11             Out of this 150 to 200.000 do not wish or did not wish to be

12     Croatian citizens.  They don't want that still today, 15 years after

13     these events.

14        Q.   Well, the Chamber has heard quite a bit of evidence -- sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson, we are moving further and further

16     away from what was the -- the subject matter of the examination-in-chief.

17     We focussed very much on what was said, especially in 1995.  Not to say

18     that we heard a bit about later developments, but several times, the

19     Chamber said, What happened afterwards is a different matter than what

20     was discussed in mid and late 1995.

21             Now, we are not only looking at what happened later but also on

22     what was said at that time.  Some of the matters, I mean, individual or

23     mass return, having dealt with already quite considerably and where,

24     apparently, this witness has -- I wouldn't say no knowledge but limited

25     knowledge, and it certainly moves away further and further from what the

Page 27288

 1     Chamber had on its mind.

 2             Do you have any other questions which brings us closer again --

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would like to move to the 8th -- sorry, 11th

 6     August 1995 VONS meeting, which is P2673.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and you said you would need approximately

 8     20 minutes.  Would that be your last topic?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Two brief topics, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please try to do it as briefly as possible.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 20 in the English and

12     page 47 in the B/C/S -- oh, sorry, I apologise.  We've uploaded a full

13     English translation.  I'm not sure if it has been linked into e-court.

14             The doc ID of the full English translation is 01870803 --

15     0187-0803-ET-1.  If that could be brought up alongside the B/C/S.

16             And if we could have page 47 in the B/C/S, which should be

17     12 pages before this one.  And page 20 in the English.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I'm sorry, and pardon me if I'm behind

19     here.  But I only get a 17-page document, and I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that Ms. Gustafson just referred to a full

21     translation having been uploaded, and that's what she's dealing with now.

22             Is that correctly understood, Ms. Gustafson?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I hope so, yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That is at least what is on her mind, whether what

25     is on our screen is the what on her mind is ...

Page 27289

 1             MR. KEHOE:  In the spirit of trying to follow along, it's just a

 2     bit difficult, and maybe I could just -- excuse me.

 3             I'm going to get the assistance of our Case Manager.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  We need to go back 12 pages in the B/C/S.  It

 5     should be page 47, but I'm not ... I may have made a mistake.

 6             There we go.  And if we could move to the bottom in the English.

 7        Q.   Mr. Radic, this is you speaking right after Operation Storm on

 8     the 11th of August --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Counsel, I'm sorry.  I don't mean to

10     interrupt.  What page are we talking about in the English?  I have this

11     uploaded, but --

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It's the 20th page.  There are a number of

13     different page numbers at the bottom of the page because it's a number of

14     different pieces of different translations, it was disclosed --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It's on our screen now.  And it's page 8 in the hard

16     copy version, which allows you to find it.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   Here, Mr. Radic, you're talking about the fact that:

20             "The full effect of Operations Flash and Storm is that expelled

21     persons are returning to their homes, 120.000 persons, Croats from those

22     areas are still expelled persons."

23             And in the next paragraph, you talk about a detailed analysis

24     aimed at creating conditions as soon as possible for returns.

25             And if we go to the next page in the English, you discuss three

Page 27290

 1     waves of Croats to return.  The first wave will be those places where

 2     houses have remained intact, houses of Croats that had been settled by

 3     Serbs.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we go to the --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we on the right page in English?  I think the

 6     hard copy -- yes, now we are.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  There we go.

 8        Q.   And then you talk about the second surge.  And that's at the

 9     bottom of the page and moving to the next page in the B/C/S.  And that's

10     Croats returning to liberated apartments and houses in areas near to

11     where their destroyed houses are.  And about halfway through that

12     paragraph, you talk about the third group, the third wave, which is

13     return to those villages or small Croatian towns that were totally

14     destroyed, such as Sveti Rok, Lovinac, Saborsko, et cetera.

15             And if we go to the next page in the B/C/S and the bottom of the

16     page in English, you're speaking again.

17             And in the next page in the English, right after you refer again

18     to Lovinac and Sveti Rok, you ask that there be a meeting in a small

19     group to agree precisely what places it will be, what points in a

20     strategic sense to fill with people in the coming days.

21             And you say:

22             "It is most urgent, most important in places where the return can

23     take place in a month at the most."

24             And you talk about beginning instruction in schools.

25             Now, here you describe these three waves of Croats that will be

Page 27291

 1     returned to these liberated areas as urgently as possible.  And the

 2     Chamber has heard evidence that quite a number of Croats did start moving

 3     into these areas quite soon after Operation Storm.

 4             So my question is:  Were you successful, were you able to move in

 5     quite a number of Croats in these three categories as quickly as you

 6     indicated that you aimed to do in this transcript?

 7        A.   No, not even close.

 8        Q.   Well, in a transcript that you were shown the other day of the

 9     5th of October government session, the one that was in the binder that

10     you took, you said that you been able to settle 8.000 Croats in the areas

11     of Vojnic and Vrginmost.

12             Is that an example of you achieving some results in this area of

13     returning people to the area after Operation Storm?

14        A.   That is one example where we had settled displaced persons from

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I was actually doing my best to give you a

16     shorter answer, but now you're evidently looking for an explanation.

17             The programme of return was proceeding much slower than we

18     envisioned that -- a week after Storm in an ideal enthusiastic kind of

19     situation, as expected, that a person who had spent a few years away form

20     his home, in some hotel or another apartment, couldn't wait for the

21     moment to return to his home.  But I saw that this was not like that,

22     because those five years of living somewhere else created many new

23     circumstances.

24        Q.   Are you able to recall now approximately how many thousands of

25     Croats you had been able to bring back into the area by, for example, the

Page 27292

 1     5th of October, when you referred to the Croats in Vojnic and Vrginmost.

 2        A.   No, I cannot remember that.  But I remember well that, at the end

 3     of the government's term of office, after five years of working we said

 4     that we had managed to return 200.000 people to their homes, that we had

 5     created the conditions and restored or reconstructed the homes for that

 6     number of people.  But I really cannot remember the exact figures for

 7     that period, for which period.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gustafson.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  That's all the question I have.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radic, for answering my questions.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I would, just as a housekeeping matter, ask

12     that this full translation be replaced for the one in e-court, and I also

13     neglected to tender 65 ter 4661.

14             MR. KEHOE:  I take it that's the newspaper article; is that

15     right?  I take that back.  It's a presidential transcript of

16     January 28th.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's right.

18             MR. KEHOE:  No objection, Judge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, leave is granted to replace an

20     incomplete translation by the complete translation in relation to ...

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  2673?  That leave is granted.  Could you please

23     assign a number to 65 ter 4661.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P2714.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 27293

 1             Mr. Radic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe.

 2     Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

 3             Mr. Kehoe, first of all, we have to conclude today five minutes

 4     earlier than normal.  Would you please keep that in mind.

 5             Would you please also keep in mind that from the examination by

 6     the Chamber and then by the cross-examination, it turns out that on

 7     various matters that the same issues arise again, and what the Chamber

 8     would like that avoid is that by taking another approach, we end up with

 9     the same answers which would then primarily emphasise that from whatever

10     point of view you look at it, you would get similar answers, and I think

11     that the Defence should avoid that.  We're here not to emphasise the

12     answers we've already heard, but, rather, to have the evidence primarily

13     tested within the guide-lines the Chamber gave for cross-examination of

14     Chamber witnesses.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President, thank you, and in that vein, I'll

17     use a Latin expression "festina lente."  And I will try to move quickly

18     but not too quickly and avoid topics that have come up before.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In Greek it is speude bradeos.

20             MR. KEHOE:  I never took Greek, Judge, unfortunately.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

22        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Radic.

23             I would like to cover some topics, and as the President just said

24     we're not going to repeat everything we did in the past.

25             But I would like, for one moment, to contextualise some of these

Page 27294

 1     conversations.  And I'm talking about the conversations that began with

 2     you and President Tudjman and others immediately after Operation Storm.

 3     We've seen some discussion on 462 both yesterday and today which took

 4     place just days after Storm, 11 August 1995.

 5             But I would like do put into context a series of events and your

 6     mindset, at least, in talking to President Tudjman as to what you're

 7     talking about at that particular time.

 8             Now this morning you had mentioned that you had had some

 9     experience as a result of Operation Flash and the situation in

10     Western Slavonia, going back to May/June of 1995.

11             Now, in Western Slavonia, there was in fact a large element of

12     the Serb population who voluntarily left Western Slavonia after

13     Operation Flash, didn't they?

14        A.   Absolutely.  So here in front of us we have the minutes from one

15     or two meetings, but in those days, I personally spoke to

16     President Tudjman for at least 20 times concerning different topics.  You

17     are mentioning the situation in Western Slavonia, but we can also say

18     that many Serbs left other parts of Croatia as soon as Croatia proclaimed

19     independence.  I believe as many as 20.000 Serbs left Zagreb in the

20     period after the proclamation of independence because they simply could

21     not accept Croatia as their country, as their state.

22             So we spoke about the overall context of all the events that

23     happened during the war.

24        Q.   And I would like to focus our attention, at least initially, on

25     the experience of the Republic of Croatia in Western Slavonia, prior to

Page 27295

 1     Operation Storm.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  And if could I bring up on the screen 65 ter 520,

 3     which is a report of the Security Council dated 9 June 1995.  Excuse me,

 4     65 ter 520.  Yes, that's it.

 5        Q.   As you can see -- just waiting for the B/C/S.  As you can see,

 6     Mr. Radic, it is a UN report.  And I would like to turn to the fourth

 7     page in the English, which begins -- and third page in the B/C/S which

 8     begins with the heading: Sector West.

 9             And in that area, in the end of the first paragraph I will begin

10     to read their analysis of the UN which notes that:

11             "... the Croatian government has sought to encourage Serbs to

12     remain in the sector and has issued personal documents, including

13     citizenship papers and some passports to those who have applied for

14     them."

15             Paragraph 15:

16             "Despite the evident efforts of the Croatian government to

17     achieve high standards of respect for the Serbs' human rights in

18     Sector West and to discourage them from moving into Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19     an atmosphere of fear prevails, and only a few hundred are likely to

20     choose to stay in the sector."

21             Now that ultimately became the reality, that Serbs in an

22     enterprise called Operation Safe Passage, left the area under the

23     auspices of the UN.  Isn't that right?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer into evidence

Page 27296

 1     65 ter 520.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection, Your Honour.

 3        A.   I recall that this is an UN report from about this time in

 4     evidence already with a D number.  I can double-check.  I'm not sure if

 5     it's this one, though.  But there is no objection.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  I think, if I may, there is a Mazowiecki report in

 7     that -- is about that time-frame, and this is a different report.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, his document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D2020.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D2020 is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Now let us go to post-Operation Storm where -- where

14     President Tudjman is talking to international leaders about the

15     likelihood of Serbs returning, and I want to show you a series of

16     documents before I ask you this, and I do think if we move through this

17     expeditiously, we can finish this area before we have to leave for the

18     day.

19             And the first conversation I would like to talk to you about is

20     P449, which is a minutes of a meeting on the 18th of August, 1995, with

21     the President and Ambassador Holbrooke of the United States,

22     General Clark of the United States, as well as Ambassador Galbraith.

23             And if I might just have one moment to get the pagination on this

24     correctly -- correct, excuse me.

25             MR. KEHOE:  The reason the pagination is off a bit,

Page 27297

 1     Mr. President, is that there was a portion of this that was initially put

 2     into evidence and then another portion of it was tagged on thereafter.

 3     So the pagination at the bottom of the pages doesn't necessarily equate

 4     to what it is in e-court.

 5             It is page 33 in B/C/S.

 6        Q.   And let me read to you at the top of the page.  And this is 17 in

 7     English.

 8             Let me read you the comment by Ambassador Holbrooke, and I will

 9     tell you at the top of this page in the B/C/S is -- this is

10     Ambassador Holbrooke speaking to the President.

11             And he says:

12             "If you could just bring those people back, if could you hold a

13     speech and say that the war is over, to return, most of them will not

14     return.  But tell them to return, emphasise it.  At least mention that

15     they should return.

16             President Tudjman:

17             "I would be very content if about 10 per cent of them returned."

18             Ambassador Holbrooke:

19             "All right, tell them to return.  Give them compensation ..."

20             Now, the last document that I'd just like to refer to before I

21     ask you a few questions is Ambassador Galbraith's diary, which is P459,

22     and this is for the entry on September the 15th.  And in English, it

23     should be in e-court 46 of 76.

24             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, P458.

25             It is the fifth tab in B/C/S.  Tab number 5 in B/C/S.  And page

Page 27298

 1     46 in the English.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Unfortunately, that's not the right page,

 4     Mr. President, bit if I can just read it in English and we can just move

 5     along, because I'm just going to read a sentence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   In his diary, Ambassador Galbraith recounts a conversation with

 9     Mr. Sarinic.  And in his diary, he said he notes that he told

10     Mr. Sarinic:

11             "I also noted that not many would want to return, at most 20

12     per cent."

13             Now, the conversation with Ambassador Holbrooke, a public

14     conversation with an ambassador of another country, he is --

15     President Tudjman is talking about 10 per cent coming back, and

16     Ambassador Galbraith is talking about 20 per cent coming back.

17             Now, in these conversations that the government was having with

18     Ambassador Galbraith and with other international leaders, did anyone,

19     any of these international leaders suggest to you, given the fact that

20     80 per cent were not going return, what the Republic of Croatia was

21     supposed to do with all this vacant property?

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm just wondering if a foundation could be laid

23     as to this witness's contacts with international leaders.

24             MR. KEHOE:  I think, Mr. President, you in fact asked questions

25     about international leaders having some influence in changing the Law on

Page 27299

 1     the Temporary Takeover of Property from 30 to 90 days, et cetera, and I

 2     certainly would ask this witness if he knows directly, in conversations

 3     with international leaders or in conversations with Croatian leaders.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we are talking about -- primarily about the

 5     international community, but that -- let me just see ...

 6             Until now, you have referred to the conversation with

 7     Ambassador Galbraith.  If there are any others you have on your mind,

 8     please specify.  If not, we could invite the witness to ask whether he is

 9     aware of any discussions with other international leaders on this

10     subject.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   Can you answer the President's question in that regard?

13        A.   I was aware of this information, that high representatives of the

14     United States were under the impression that not more than 20 per cent

15     were to return.  I also personally met with many ambassadors at the time

16     who shared similar opinion.  Their judgement was that not more than that

17     number were to return.

18        Q.   With that number in mind, that equates to 80 per cent of the Serb

19     population not coming back.  Now, in conversations with these

20     international leaders, did they ever explain to you what the Republic of

21     Croatia was supposed to do with property owned by 80 per cent of the

22     Serbs who were not going to come back and who was going to live in these

23     areas?

24        A.   The situation was somewhat different, because they allowed us to

25     offer our solution, our proposal, and then they -- they supported it.

Page 27300

 1     For many of them it was acceptable that we suggested that the property

 2     would be best preserved if we gave it for temporary use, in a way in

 3     which we explained already in this Chamber.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Radic, the first conversation that we talked to you

 5     about was the minutes held at the Presidential Palace where there -- and

 6     this is in P462.  We don't need to bring up right now.  I'm sure you

 7     recall that conversation.  And it's a conversation with the President,

 8     with you, with minister Susak, with Prime Minister Valentic that took

 9     place on 11th of August.

10             But that conversation that takes place on 11th August is -- that

11     conversation concerning the temporary takeover law is being conducted

12     with the belief of the parties that the Serb population is not going to

13     come back.  Isn't that right?

14        A.   Absolutely, that's right.  From the first moment, we had this

15     impression which was furthermore supported by the representatives of the

16     international community, such as you mentioned yourself.

17        Q.   So this conversation not a conversation in the context of keeping

18     the Serb population out, but, rather, The Serb population is not going to

19     come back.  What are we going to do with this property, all this vacant

20     property, especially in light of the security concerns with the ongoing

21     war against the combined Serb forces.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   That is absolutely right.  Even the conversation that I had with

23     the President on the 22nd of August, starts with me saying, President, we

24     have to preserve the properties.  And he say, Yes, of course, we have to

25     preserve all the properties in the Republic of Croatia.

Page 27301

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radic.  We have to break off now, pursuant to the

 2     President's instructions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

 4             Mr. Radic, I give you the same instructions as I gave to you

 5     yesterday, that is, that you should not speak with anyone about your

 6     testimony whether already given yesterday and today or still to be given

 7     tomorrow.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00, although

 8     in Courtroom III.

 9             We adjourn, and we resume on -- one second.

10             The question was put to you whether you would keep the folders.

11     If you would like to keep them, if you would want to re-read what is in

12     there, that's fine.  If you would rather say, Let's not lose it, I'll

13     give it back to the Tribunal, then we'll receive it.

14             MR. KEHOE:  On that score, is it possible - again this is a large

15     transcript of P464 that Ms. Gustafson went through - if there's no

16     objections to any parties of giving a copy in Croatian.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, apparently.  I'm looking at

18     Ms. Gustafson who is nodding no objection.

19             Then this can be -- in the appropriate way be given to the

20     witness.

21             We will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 26th of February, 9.00,

22     Courtroom III.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of

25                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.