1 Thursday, 25 February 2010 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, et al. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Good morning to you, Mr. Radic, as well.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 WITNESS: JURE RADIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
18 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to ask a few additional questions in
19 relation to the statement you've given to the Gotovina Defence.
20 In paragraph 24 of that statement, you mention that accommodating
21 the population of Kijevo in Knin and the reconstructions of new houses in
22 Kistanje, which were used to accommodate citizens.
23 Could you tell us a bit more. I think you mentioned it yesterday
24 a few times as well, the reconstruction of houses in Kistanje, when, for
25 whom, how many. Could you give us some details about this, new houses in
1 Kistanje and housing people from Kijevo in Knin. Perhaps we start with
3 Before you answer this question I'd like to remind you that the
4 solemn declaration you gave yesterday is still binding. That is, that
5 you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6 Mr. Radic.
7 A. I think that the construction of apartments or houses in Kistanje
8 is the best example with which we wished to resolve a number of problems
9 that we had at the same time. At the same time, we had expelled Croats,
10 people who were expelled from their homes. Then we had Croats and
11 Bosniaks from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Croats from Serbia
12 have people who had left their homes in Croatia and for the most part had
13 gone to Serbia
14 After Oluja, and a large portion of Croatia was liberated, there
15 was a large number in Kistanje --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you there. I'd first like -- I
17 specified my question, when, how many. If we could first go to the facts
18 and then whether it's a good example of A, B, or C and what exactly --
19 first, I'm interested in knowing the facts of this reconstruction of
21 A. In Kistanje, we built a new part of a settlement with 150 houses,
22 if I remember correctly. Completely new ones in a field. They were
23 completely equipped with all the facilities, infrastructure, and this is
24 where we had the assistance of the government of the United States,
25 through a fund of theirs. They invested in the construction of the water
1 works and the electricity supply.
2 After the houses were completed, we placed people there who were
3 occupying temporarily property that had been abandoned.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you when that was. When did you
5 start reconstructing and when were these 150 houses ready.
6 A. About 150 houses, yes. Well, it's difficult for me to recall the
7 exact date. But it was sometime -- let's say we began a year after
9 After Storm, right away, we started to prepare the development
10 plans. We were planning a few villages like that. There was a
11 settlement we were planning near Gracac. There was one near Donji Lapac.
12 Unfortunately, this one was never built. And there were several examples
13 I mentioned three large ones with more than 100 houses but there were
14 several smaller ones in different areas.
15 So after Storm, we began to develop the plans but the
16 construction of a village with 150 houses requires a lot of time and a
17 lot of money, of course.
18 As far as can I remember now, I think that we started about a
19 year after Storm with this construction, and then in a year, or a little
20 bit more, well, proof of that and this is something that I remember well,
21 is that the ambassador of the United States at the time was
22 Mr. Montgomery, and so we were distributing keys in a public ceremony to
23 people who were transferred then from temporarily occupied premises so
24 that they could return to Kistanje. I think Kistanje now is a very good
25 example of co-habitation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's a good example of co-habitation,
2 could you tell us what at this moment, approximately, then the balance
4 A. I don't know at this point in time. I did go to a sort of
5 celebration there. I was invited to go about three years ago. A Serb
6 was the mayor at the time, and on the basis of that, I conclude that the
7 Serbs were the majority to go and vote. So I assume that the ratio of
8 people living in Kistanje right now is perhaps 50/50. I also know when
9 there are elections, people frequently are organised from Serbia. They
10 come by buses from there in order to vote so perhaps that was a decisive
11 factor. But like I said yesterday I haven't been on this kind of work
12 for the past ten years. I'm no longer doing that work, so now I am just
13 really stating my impressions about the current situation.
14 JUDGE ORIE: 150 houses approximately were constructed. Do I
15 understand that those who were temporarily housed in Kistanje or from
16 elsewhere, that they moved into those houses?
17 A. People were transferred to the newly built houses who were
18 previously temporarily placed in abandoned property in Kistanje and its
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that be mainly Croats or ...
21 A. For the most part Croats, yes. I think almost over 90 per cent.
22 There was some Bosniaks among them. But from what I remember now, the
23 bulk of them were Croats. For a number of years they had been in
24 privately owned homes of Serbs who had left Croatia. We emptied those
25 houses and freed them up for the Serbs who had left them before to be
1 able to return there.
2 Kistanje is alive again. It's a very nice neighbourhood now with
3 a lot of children. I feel very comfortable there when I go and visit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do I understand -- do you have any data, then,
5 on Serbs, then, returning? And were there programmes for reconstruction
6 of their houses as well? Could you tell us in factual terms what
7 happened there. Because if I hear that people came from buses -- with
8 buss from Serbia
9 back in their houses, and if you need buses, then at least a number, a --
10 not just one or two, but -- could you tell us what, then, happened with
11 the houses that were -- that were left in order to move into the new
12 constructed houses? What happened with the abandoned houses?
13 A. When I said "buses," this referred to a portion of the
14 population. A portion did come back. I will speak about an example that
15 I am familiar with.
16 A family left one house. They had grandfather and grandmother,
17 father and mother, and children. This is really important. It's
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Examples are sometimes
20 illustrative; sometimes not illustrative of the overall picture. At this
21 moment, I'm primarily seeking to have information which allows me to have
22 the overall picture rather than one example. Could well be that it is
23 very much representative for the whole of it, but it could also be that
24 it is the exception. So therefore, I'd rather refrain from listening to
25 examples and rather have clear facts, figures, for the overall picture.
1 A. All Serbs whose houses were vacated had the option of returning.
2 A number of them during the time that they had spent outside of Croatia
3 managed to get jobs, their children were attending school, let's say
4 somewhere else, in Belgrade
5 their work. So a number of people came to Kistanje. Perhaps older
6 people came back. This is why I talked about grandfathers and
7 grandmothers who --
8 JUDGE ORIE: For the interpreters, could you please slow down.
9 Mr. Misetic also assists me in making the job for the interpreters still
11 Mr. Radic, you said, "perhaps older people came back."
12 Do you have figures? How many -- how many --
13 A. I don't have the figures. I didn't say perhaps all of them came
14 back. All of them could have come back and those who wanted to come back
15 did come back. This is not a rule. But taking Kistanje as an example,
16 elderly people who had retirement pensions who had an option of returning
17 but didn't have any children in school somewhere else at that moment, so
18 they didn't have that problem, they returned. Those others who continued
19 to live outside of Croatia
20 JUDGE ORIE: You said, Those who wished to come back did come
22 Well, Kistanje was a village with, well, quite a number of
23 inhabitants. Was any research done on whether they wished or not, or is
24 it just that you conclude from the return of some, you can't give us the
25 data, that returned and said they wished to return, that you concluded
1 that those who wished to return did return? Is that -- I mean, what's
2 the basis exactly for your statement? That those who wished to return
3 did return.
4 A. I'm drawing the conclusion on the basis of the fact that
5 everybody had the opportunity to submit an application to return, and for
6 reconstruction, we reconstructed the houses. I don't know what else one
7 could do in order to get people to come back.
8 So I conclude on the basis of administrative procedure that those
9 who wanted to come back did come back.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say if they're not -- if they did not
11 apply for return, they apparently had no wish to return. Is that,
12 briefly, what you're telling us?
13 A. That was my conclusion. However, there is still the option for
14 these people to return.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move away from that.
16 Do you know whether the figure of Serbs that, meanwhile, have
17 returned is published anywhere, even if you do not know it by heart? Is
18 there any publication as to the present situation or the situation as it
19 developed over time?
20 A. No, I am not aware of that. Again, I have not been in politics
21 for the past ten years. I'm involved in something completely different
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that leaves, still, the time open from
24 1999 to 2009, where perhaps would you have had information about the
25 period, 1995/1999.
1 A. Absolutely. Absolutely, on the basis of what I can remember.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your statement, you mentioned the national
3 programme for demographic renewal.
4 Now this Chamber has received a lot of evidence on all kind of
5 programmes and developments. But a programme by this very name, I think
6 we haven't -- we count find it at least. Therefore, I would like to hear
7 from you what that programme, under this name, exactly was. Briefly,
8 please, so that we have a -- that we know where to place it. When was it
9 developed? What did it consist of?
10 A. This is a document that is not initially connected to the wartime
11 events. When we established the Croatian state in 1990, there were no
12 longer reasons which had led to the fact that -- that one half of ethnic
13 Croats were in Croatia
14 frequently political reasons from Communist times. At the very beginning
15 when we were establishing the Croatian state, and I actually began to do
16 this as early as 1992 when I was minister of education and then I
17 continued as the minister for development and reconstruction. We defined
18 a national programme of demographic renewal which has a few basic
19 principles. The first one, to stimulate population growth. Croatia
20 a negative population growth. It had it then and it still does.
21 At the time we adopted measures which referred to all the
22 citizens of Croatia
23 group, encouraging families with more children. They were child
24 supplements and things like that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I asked to you to be brief. I do understand that
1 part of the programme was to stimulate families having more children so
2 as to not have a negative population growth. Yes, other parts -- when
3 was the programme developed? When was it put on paper?
4 A. The programme was developed from 1992 until 1995 or 1996. I
5 think in 1996 it was adopted by the assembly. 1996. I have to mention
6 three facts at least the first one to stimulate families with more
7 children. The second point was to encourage the settlement of empty
8 swaths of area of Croatia
9 measure was to encourage immigration, the return of Croats who, during
10 the Communist period, left for Germany
11 so that was the main concept of the programme. It was unanimously
12 adopted by the Assembly. It is being applied still today.
13 It was followed by a series of laws on areas of special benefit,
14 then the laws on islands. If the islands were sparsely populated, then
15 laws on hilly terrain. But in any case, these laws applied to all
16 Croatian citizens.
17 I'm just going to mention one more fact. This first group
18 stimulating the birth-rate and families with more children. At the time
19 we had a large number of Roma who wanted to come to Croatia from other
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, at this moment, the Chamber has no
24 further questions for you.
25 Perhaps briefly, Mr. Kay, the Chamber looked at the material
1 yesterday. You provided the 61 pages of which approximately little bit
2 over 20 pages were about de-mining. What the Chamber was seeking was the
3 link between the time-limits set for return, et cetera. We -- I know a
4 lot more about de-mining now, about how to organise it, 2.000 people,
5 ten years, how to pay them, either privately to be done or not. But I
6 didn't find any link to time-limits set for return, and, as a matter of
7 fact, it seemed to very much a very long-term matter.
8 I suggest that if the parties agree that no such thing is found
9 in there, and where I would be surprised if either Prosecution or any
10 Defence team would argue that de-mining was not a major problem. I would
11 expect everyone to accept that after such a war period that de-mining was
12 a huge problem, very expensive problem to -- problem which was very
13 expensive to resolve than it did need a lot of organisation and a lot of
14 -- brought a lot of problems.
15 If the parties would agree on that, then I would leave it at that
16 and not have another 25 or 61 pages in addition into evidence.
17 MR. KAY: Within that document, which is why I knew of it, there
18 is an matter right at the end that refers to General Cermak, and that was
19 why I was aware of the subject matter, and it was something that we had
20 in our mind to bar table, because it was relevant for the appointment
21 issue. I don't know whether Your Honour saw that passage and its --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I went through all of the 61 pages. I can't say
23 that I read them line by line, but that is it not what the Chamber was
24 looking for, of course, because the issue was not Mr. Cermak and
1 MR. KAY: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The issue was the time-limits set for return, being
3 explained by de-mining concerns. Therefore, if you want to take any
4 action -- but what the Chamber was looking for was not found in there.
5 And may I take it that there is it no disagreement that de-mining
6 of such a large area would take quite a lot of efforts and that there's
7 no dispute about that?
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: No dispute, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, there was some information in there,
11 such as a large number of people killed, 400 killed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I -- I included that in the huge problems
13 when I was talking about what wages to pay -- of course, the beginning
14 was -- the question was 400 people injured or killed, and then it's clear
15 that many were killed. So, therefore, there is apparently no dispute
16 about the seriousness of the situation where there are a lot of mines,
17 and what it takes to deal with that. There are, of course, there is
18 other information as well as where those mines would be found, whether
19 there would be mines where people would normally move around which seems
20 to be -- receive a -- well, a bit of a negative answer. But the Chamber
21 was not looking for the details and the problems of de-mining. If you
22 want to put that on our table, then it should be in a different context
23 and it is not in response to what we were seeking yesterday, that is,
24 documentary corroboration of what the witness told us, that the one month
25 to the three months was also caused by de-mining problems.
1 MR. KAY: I suppose it's a chicken and egg situation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But that is all reasoning. That is all reasoning.
3 I no where see anyone saying, Let's stop them for another month because
4 we have still a lot of de-mining to do. The link is -- can be on our
5 minds but is nowhere expressly discussed.
6 MR. KAY: I suppose in that form, but it may have been obvious to
7 the speakers that the problem itself caused by de-mining was part of the
8 very problem that they were dealing with generally with the return. It
9 may not have been expressed as a temporal matter, and I have not seen
10 anything in relation to that, but the actual generality of the problem
11 being, to the speakers minds, being obviously an effecting factor.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do see your point. It becomes now more or
13 less argumentative rather than -- and then of course, there could be a
14 lot of arguments, such as if you need 20.000 people for ten years, why
15 would you then extent from one month to three months? And this is all
16 discussed after the moment that those time-limits have been set. We're
17 talking about December 1995. But let's not -- the Chamber, having looked
18 at it, doesn't find a direct answer to its question there, and therefore,
19 will leave it as it is. But, of course, if the parties want to take any
20 other initiative, then you have put already quite a bit on the record,
21 Mr. Kay.
22 MR. KAY: I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. KAY: Shall I bar table the document? Would that be a
25 convenient route rather than --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then certainly not the whole of the document,
2 I would say, because it is just item 2 of the agenda. So that saves
3 another 35 pages.
4 You can consider that. Perhaps Ms. Gustafson would -- would like
5 to respond now or in the future.
6 The Chamber, at this moment, having looked at it, takes no
7 initiative to have it in evidence and waits whatever will be submitted to
9 Ms. Gustafson, are you ready to cross-examine, Mr. Radic?
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, you will now be cross-examined by
12 Ms. Gustafson. Ms. Gustafson is counsel for the Prosecution.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Just as a preliminary matter we have, more out of
14 habit than anything, released our cross-examination documents. There was
15 no procedure on that issue indicated by the Chamber, and I don't know if
16 the Chamber has a view on that or not, but I just wanted to indicate that
17 that was something that we had done.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think that --
19 MR. KEHOE: We're prepared to do same. I assume that we were
20 going to follow the same procedure that we had previously. So I would
21 just adopt the procedure laid out by Ms. Gustafson.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Your good example is followed, Ms. Gustafson -- will
23 be followed.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. If we could go to P462, page 16 of
1 the English and page 25 in B/C/S.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
3 Q. And good morning, Mr. Radic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. I'd like to go back to --
6 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Ms. Gustafson. I don't know if the
7 parties have lost the LiveNote. I appear to have. I don't know if
8 others have. On my screen. Is this one working?
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: I've lost it too.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We all lost it.
11 Could we work on the other screen for the time being and be
12 informed about a quick restoration of our facilities.
13 Then please proceed. If at any time it causes too big problems,
14 then we'd like to hear.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, I'd like to go back to the discussion from the
17 11th of August, 1995 about the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property
18 that was being discussed at that session. And you looked at that
19 document yesterday.
20 And, again, I'd like to draw your attention to this part of the
21 transcript, where you speak and you say:
22 "Nothing is more important than this, nothing is more important
23 in Croatia
24 don't know, we don't have a report on this, but I don't know if you know
25 that Vojnic ... has [sic] only 51 inhabitants, today it's a town of
1 15.000 people, and tomorrow we can fill it up with 15.000, in addition,
2 Lapac has 14 inhabitants, 14 Croats ..."
3 Just stopping there for a moment, when you said Vojnic has only
4 51 inhabitants and Donji Lapac has only 14 inhabitants, 14 Croats, now,
5 according to the 1991 census, there were precisely 14 ethnic Croats in
6 the town of Donji Lapac and 51 ethnic Croats in the town of Vojnic
7 since you used these same figures in your speech, I'd just like to ask
8 you to confirm that you were referring here to the number of ethnic
9 Croats in those places, according to the 1991 census.
10 Is that right?
11 A. I guess so, given that this was a very short time after the
12 Storm, I had no data about members of other ethnicities who may have
13 stayed. I would have guessed that some Serbs had stayed as well, but
14 this was very short time after the Storm, and we did not have any new
15 data on the population there.
16 Q. And when you said that -- you used the present tense when you
17 said "there are 51 inhabitants in Vojnic and 14 in Donji Lapac," did you
18 mean that the Croats in those towns had been there all along, or did you
19 mean that they had returned to those places after Operation Storm?
20 A. I did declare that I will speak the truth and only the truth, and
21 that it would not be my guess-work so I cannot completely remember what I
22 thought at that time. But I guess that I thought the 51 would now come
23 back, given that now the conditions have been met for them to come back.
24 Q. So, at this point, you weren't sure if they had come back but you
25 thought those Croats would soon return to those villages. Is that -- is
1 that how I'm to understand your answer?
2 A. That's correct. Because I knew I did receive reports that the
3 buildings, the apartment buildings that were owned either by JNA or some
4 corporations, such as Hrvatske Sume, that they were free and they were
5 intact so it was possible for people to come back.
6 Q. Thank you. If I could just ask you to try to limit your answers
7 to the precise questions that I have, and if I want more information,
8 I'll ask you, just because I have limited time. Thank you.
9 And also in this speech we looked at this language before in
10 parenthesis. If you look at the screen, it might assist you.
11 In parentheses it says: "(It's more than the number of houses
12 ...)" And you thought that the parentheses indicated that that was
13 somebody else speaking there in the middle of what you were saying?
14 And then right after that you say:
15 "I agree, but it's strategically so important and it's in such a
16 position that we must repair the houses, Gojko, and put Croats there,
17 such is the position of the place."
18 Now you used the word -- the name Gojko there, and it seems to me
19 that it may have been that it was Mr. Susak who said: "It's more than
20 the number of houses," and that's why you said you agreed, but you
21 must -- "... we must repair the houses, Gojko ..."
22 A. No. Looking at this now, it seems to me that this is not an
23 entire sentence that was spoken by Gojko. So I probably commented or
24 responded to the entire sentence, and this is just one portion of it. I
25 can't remember what the full sentence looked like. It says here, "it's
1 more than the number of houses," but it seems that more was said after
2 this. And I assume I heard the entire sentence. And whoever was making
3 this transcript did not put in the entire sentence.
4 So I do not know what this comment of mine actually refers to.
5 Q. But do you agree that when you said the name Gojko that you were
6 talking -- that it Mr. Susak who had said something in the middle of what
7 you were saying here?
8 A. I'm almost certain there was no other Gojko at the meeting, apart
9 from Mr. Susak. But I really cannot confirm what was it that he really
10 said, on the basis of what is written here.
11 Q. Okay. Well, I'd like to concentrate on what you said which was:
12 "I agree but it is strategically so important and it's in such a
13 position that we must repair the houses."
14 Now, you're talking about repairing houses here, and I take it
15 from that that you understood, at least at the time, that there were
16 houses in Donji Lapac that were damaged or destroyed that needed to be
17 repaired so that Croats could move there.
18 Is that right?
19 A. There is no doubt that all the houses that used to belong to
20 Croats before the war were destroyed during the occupation. In the
21 occupied territory, I did not find a single house that used to be owned
22 by a Croat who was expelled that was not burned down. Apart from some of
23 them that were used for other purposes.
24 So in Lapac and in Vojnic there was a small number of Croats
25 prior to the war, but their houses were destroyed whilst they were
1 expelled. So I said let us accommodate them now temporarily in the
2 state-owned apartments but let us immediately start reconstructing their
3 houses so that they can move to their houses rather than stay forever in
4 the properties that were not theirs. This is my understanding of what I
5 said here.
6 Q. But you wanted to move far more than just the 14 Croats who'd
7 lived in Donji Lapac before into Donji Lapac. You wanted to move a large
8 number of Croats there because it was a strategically important location,
9 as you told the Trial Chamber yesterday, right?
10 A. There is no doubt about this. As I said yesterday, in Vojnic,
11 Lapac, and Gracac, we had members of the JNA which attacked Croatia
12 they left Croatia
13 belonged to the Republic of Croatia
14 Croatian army so that they move there, rather than stay in Zagreb
16 Q. Mr. Radic, you're not talking here about moving 15.000 HV members
17 into Vojnic. You're talking about moving 15.000 Croats there, aren't
19 A. Yes. But I'm just trying to explain what I referred to. I also
20 thought about people who worked for the company Hrvatske Sume, Croatian
21 forests. I also thought about teachers, about doctors, a teacher of
22 mathematics from Vojnic left. He used to live in an apartment that was
23 owned by the school and we needed new teachers there. This is what we
24 discussed yesterday.
25 Q. Now yesterday you were asked about some comments from this
1 meeting that suggested that the Law on Property, the Law on the Temporary
2 Takeover of property would be aimed at guaranteeing persons who were
3 granted property for temporary use, that they would not be expelled if
4 the owner returned, so that the refugees would not return.
5 And you said that some people thought that way, but you thought
6 differently, and you said you always took care of one type and the other
7 type of persons. That was at page 22.
8 By one type and the other type of persons, were you referring
9 there to Serbs and Croats?
10 A. I was referring to different types of refugees and displaced
11 persons. Because we always had a number, though be it a small number of
12 persons amongst the refugees and displaced person who were Croats or
13 Bosnians or Serbs. So in no document did we distinguish between persons
14 on the basis of their ethnicity. But even today I tried to explain what
15 we had in mind when we had -- when we said that everybody would be taken
16 care of.
17 So when we offered temporary accommodation for displaced Croats
18 from Bosnia
19 out, but we would find other accommodation for them in order to be able
20 to return those houses to -- to refugees who came back.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Again, if you could just try to answer
22 very precisely just the question I'm asking without going into a lot of
23 examples because I just simply don't have time to hear all of these
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could turn to page 18 of this document, in
1 the English, and page 27 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. Now, I'd like to you look at the second speaker, which again is
3 you. And you say:
4 "We have good houses, intact houses, who do we keep them for?
5 And Mr. Valentic says:
6 "So move them into the houses, and we will provide for that by a
7 law or decree in the coming days?"
8 And Mr. Vrdoljak says:
9 "So they must know that if they move into the house we will
10 not ..."
11 And then Mr. Milas says:
12 "Mr. President, it doesn't even need to be that way. You put
13 everything under the state's sequestration and give guarantees to those
14 inside that nobody will touch them. The state deals with them, and we
15 put that also for these ..."
16 And then somebody says: "We did."
17 And then Mr. Seks says:
18 "President, we did put it into the law, for the second reading,
19 but the people that move into a house have ownership security. They
20 don't want temporary use, they must invest, repair, keep it in order.
21 They want to own it?"
22 And if we go to the next page in the B/C/S, President Tudjman
23 says: "Yes, well, that's clear. It's in our interests too."
24 Now, here, when Mr. Seks refers to ownership, security and that
25 people don't want to temporary use, they want to own it, and
1 President Tudjman responds, Yes, that's clear, that's in our interest
2 too, President Tudjman here is one of those people who thought that the
3 property law should be aimed at guaranteeing that people who are granted
4 these properties for use would not have to leave, if the owner returned;
6 A. Your Honour, the Prosecutor asked me that I try to be short, but
7 I assume the answer is always at least twice as long as the question, so
8 your question took several minutes, so I assume that my answer would be a
9 bit longer than that. I hope can agree with this.
10 Yesterday I think I was clear enough. During any discussion,
11 discussion on any topic, including this one, there were different ideas
12 that were voiced. Some people did suggest that we should sequestrate all
13 the property, and that's it. But after this meeting and additional ten
14 meetings we adopted conclusions and the law. And the wording of that law
15 and a the spirit of that law was that the property would be secured that
16 nobody would touch the private property, and that it would be returned to
17 the rightful owners once they come back and once all the necessary
18 conditions are met.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we go to P463 again, please.
20 Q. Mr. Radic, this is the transcript of the meeting from the 22nd of
21 August. Again, you looked at this one yesterday.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 2 in the English and
23 page 4 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. And here again you're talking about returning people to the
25 territory. And you say in the third paragraph where it begins: "The
1 second group ..."
2 You say:
3 "The second group is the people who can go to the deserted houses
4 near their own houses. We're having a lot of problems here, they are
5 offering resistance. How should this be done, we simply can't find a way
6 to force our people to do it. Some are eager to go, for example
7 Kijevljani, in most of the cases, accepted to go to Knin. But the people
8 from Banja region won't go to Petrinja. You see Saborski, we had a
9 discussion in Plaski today, and Saborski has got nothing at all, and
10 Plaski is whole. They say I am not going to move twice."
11 And President Tudjman says: "Why would they move twice?"
12 And if we go to the next page you say: "Today over there, and
13 tomorrow to Saborsko.
14 And President Tudjman says: "Well, let them stay there.
15 And you say:
16 "They wouldn't. People are a bit tough about that?"
17 And President Tudjman says:
18 "Wait, is he afraid that he wouldn't be safe?
19 And you say:
20 "He's afraid that he wouldn't be safe, and he's afraid some Serb
21 might come tomorrow. That's one thing. And second, he would rather go
22 to his own house over there. I would look at in some way, but he has to
23 come temporarily. We'll have to come up with some order or something to
24 be a bit hasher with this in order to take the people there."
25 Now, Plaski was in 1991 a largely Serb village, and Saborsko was
1 a largely Croat village; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they're both in Ogulin municipality. And here you and
4 President Tudjman are agreeing that the people -- the Croats from
5 Saborsko, which is destroyed, should just stay in the Serb houses in
6 Plaski, and you are complaining that the Croats from Saborsko don't want
7 to do that. They want to return from their homes.
8 Is that a correct understanding of this passage?
9 A. The beginning of the passage when it says that Saborsko has none,
10 it means that it is destroyed completely. Saborsko is no more. The
11 Serbs leveled it to the ground. We had people from Soborksi accommodated
12 in hotels in Dalmatia
13 them in those hotels in Dalmatia
14 them. I emphasise that, temporarily. When we're talking about moving
15 twice, it's a question of then temporarily going to abandoned property,
16 and we would need at least a couple of years to rebuild Saborski. It is
17 unbelievable. The church was raised to the ground, they took the stones
18 of the church away so that it could never be rebuilt. So the people were
19 not very happy, and they were not willing to accept this intermediary
20 step. We needed to get them out of the hotels in order to start off our
21 tourist season. So that's why we wanted them to move to the abandoned
22 property. That's also a way of preserving this property. If it is
23 abandoned too long, it begins to get run down.
24 So they would be moved twice. First moved to a house abandoned
25 by a Serb, and then after their houses are rebuilt, then they would move
1 to their own houses. I believe that this is very clear.
2 Q. It's clear that you wanted -- that -- that these people didn't
3 want to move twice; you said that. And President Tudjman says, Well, let
4 them stay there. He's talking about having them stay in the Serb houses
5 in Plaski, isn't he?
6 A. Again, in Plasko, just like in other parts, there is was a small
7 number of homes that were priority property. I keep repeating that and I
8 will do so.
9 A large number of apartments in Plasko were not privately owned,
10 but they were owned by the Croatian state or state institutions. So when
11 the President says, Let them stay there, that's what he is thinking of.
12 Not only in this conversation but in 100 other conversations we always
13 repeated that and implemented that as a principle, private property is
14 inviolable, and we will preserve that. This conversation that we are
15 quoting here is based on my own and the President's noting that we must
16 prevent the destruction and the burning of homes and houses.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, Plaski was a village of about 2200 people. Do you
18 know how many apartments there were in Plaski versus privately owned
19 homes? Do you have that figure?
20 A. I don't. There were both, private houses and apartments. This
21 is data that can be easily checked.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go now to page 4 of the English and
23 page 6 in the B/C/S. And it's at the bottom of the B/C/S where
24 President Tudjman says:
25 "Jure, regarding these returns, we as Croatia should go for
1 inviting people to come back and paying for their trips from Argentina
3 And if we turn the page in the B/C/S.
4 Q. "We should organise some charter flights or ships and tell them
5 they could choose, give them houses, give them land, even take some kind
6 of poll on what they would be interested in. We have to offer them such
7 a possibility, but the state should pay for that."
8 And you say: "It won't cost us a thing."
9 And then President Tudjman says:
10 "That would mean a thousand people, and they would enter the Serb
11 houses, et cetera."
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could now go to page 22 of the English
13 and page 33 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. And here at the top of the page in the B/C/S and near the middle
15 in the English, it is you speaking again. And the second sentence
17 "Secondly, we have to focus on return of the Croat refugees from
19 And President Tudjman asks if they have region status there.
20 You say: "In Germany
21 The President: "Granted by Germany."
22 If we go to the next page in the English, and you say: "By
24 And President Tudjman says: "We can go with that. Germans will
25 really gladly offer to organise a planned return."
1 And you say: "We can do that with Germans. I talked to their
2 Minister Scheiber. He even offered us some money for each returnee."
3 The president: "That is all right."
5 "Those relations can be strengthened and they can be returned?
7 "Jure, create a project now, say, we offer apartments, land in
8 this and this areas, et cetera, come back."
9 And you say:
10 "Okay, we will take care of it in accordance with instruction of
11 the government. They have softened it just a little bit because
12 obviously the legal aspect of that is --"
13 And President Tudjman interrupts and says: "Which one?"
14 And now if I could just ask to you read the next line, because I
15 think there might be a confusion in the translation. If could you read
16 that out in Croatian, where you say, According to present instruction ...
17 Could you read that line, please. It should be near the bottom
18 of that page.
19 A. It will not be given as ownership according to the current
20 proposal but for use so that the world or people wouldn't ...
21 And then the following page.
22 Q. And then if we turn the page in the B/C/S, President Tudjman
23 says: "For how long?"
24 And you say --
25 A. For ten years.
1 Q. And you say:
2 "To use it for ten years, which is not bad. During that period
3 man has to live there because someone might want to sell it. After
4 ten years, man would become owner. There is a point in that."
5 Now, you're talking here, when you're talking about what's going
6 on in the government, and you have to soften it because of the legal
7 aspects and it will not be given in ownership but for use, you're
8 referring here to the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property, is that
9 right, that was being discussed by the government at the time?
10 A. This conversation has been transcribed quite imprecisely. I see
11 the sentences are not complete. They start in one way. There's -- the
12 conversation started with a Croats from Australia. The President had an
13 idealistic idea about the programme of the democratic renewal --
14 demographic renewal, which had nothing do with the war, but he worked
15 with it. And then we moved to the topic of the displaced persons from
17 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm not asking you about everything you saw here. I
18 had a very specific question about whether when you referred to what was
19 going on in the government, the need to soften it because of the legal
20 aspect, and you referred to the world, and it won't be given in ownership
21 but in use, that a reference to the Law on the Temporary Takeover of
22 Property, that was then being discussed by the government; right?
23 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, I need to interrupt. Mr. President, just
24 in the spirit of clarity, I'm not certain, and I fully comprehend the
25 answer by the witness in the sense that there is some lack of clarity in
1 our transcript, and just for certainly the Chamber's sake, and for our
2 collective sake, if there could be some question by the Chamber as to
3 what may or may not be clear, it would be helpful.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But Ms. Gustafson is inviting the witness to answer
5 the question rather than to --
6 What was read to you, what was put to you did Ms. Gustafson, was
7 that about a discussion which -- in which the Law on the Temporary
8 Takeover of Property was discussed. That was the question.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not only that. At the
10 time, both in the government --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... first establish
14 was the discussion about that law. Now whether there was another matter,
15 that's second. Simply, was this a discussion in which - perhaps not
16 exclusively - the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property was
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was discussed, as well as a
19 series of other documents that we were preparing at the time. At the
20 time I was preparing the programme of return, the principles of return,
21 the reconstruction programme. A whole range of projects, not only that
22 one law. But, of course, that law was on the agenda as well. I cannot
23 say. I would lie if I were to say that at that point in time
24 President Tudjman and I were discussing exclusively that document at that
25 point in time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But the portions put to you by Ms. Gustafson were
2 primarily focussing on that law. Is that -- that's apparently what
3 Ms. Gustafson would like to know.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be sure. I cannot confirm
5 that from this conversation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. And when you said, According to present instruction, it won't be
9 given in ownership but in use, and you refer to the world, are you
10 referring to the concern that the international community would not
11 accept a law that simply transferred the ownership of Serb's property to
12 either the government or to Croats?
13 Is that what you're referring to?
14 A. It's beyond dispute that the international community would not
15 accept that, but it is also indisputable that we would not adopt anything
16 like that in that form. So it was not only just a question of the
17 international community.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You are repeatedly explaining what apparently you
19 want to explain. Ms. Gustafson simply asked you whether the reference to
20 the world was a reference to the international community, which might not
22 Now, whether you had other reasons to do the same thing, that's
23 not what Ms. Gustafson is asking you. Ms. Gustafson is asking you when
24 you used those words, whether you had with the world on your mind the
25 international community which, as you testified, would not have accepted.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON:
2 Q. And, Mr. Radic, also in this passage --
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that --
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Oh, pardon me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We still need an answer.
6 You said also -- but you would agree that the reference to the
7 world was the reference to the --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree. The
9 international community.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. And, Mr. Radic, when you said to President Tudjman that you had
14 to focus on the return of the Croat refugees from Germany, 50.000 of
15 them, were those Bosnian Croat refugees you were referring to?
16 A. Mostly they were Croats from Croatia. A certain proportion were
17 Croats from Bosnia
18 example, from Slunj which was at the centre of these event, they went to
20 meeting with the German minister for development who informed me that a
21 large number of people came and through their friends, family, who were
22 in Germany
23 which Croat actually came from Bosnia
24 went to Germany
25 So it is hard to tell exactly which Croats they were.
1 Q. Okay. So you're not sure.
2 Now, the Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property was discussed,
3 as we saw, after Operation Storm. But the procedure for this law was
4 initiated quite a bit before Storm, and it was contemplated that such a
5 law would be passed several months before Operation Storm. Is that
7 A. Right. Before Storm, there was Flash, we had liberated the area
8 of Western Slavonia a few months before Storm. There was a similar
9 situation, the scale of which was larger after Storm, actually, occurred
10 in Western Slavonia after Flash operation. And this was in May. Storm
11 was in May --
12 Q. Mr. Radic --
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... and Flash was in June.
14 Q. Thank you. Please, again, try to keep your answers as short as
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Can we go to 65 ter 846, please.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, this is a session of the VONS held on the 30th of
18 June, 1995. And the main subject discussed at this meeting is a visit by
19 President Tudjman and other state representatives to Australia and
20 New Zealand, and here discussed measures aimed at bringing Croatian
21 emigres to live and settle in Croatia
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 7 of the English and
23 page 15 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. Now, here you're speaking and -- about something like ten lines
25 down, you say:
1 "The main thing is how to deal with that man there, the Croat who
2 is there, how to make possibilities to bring at least some of them here,
3 with the goal to bring as many ... here as we can. It is kind of a
4 coincidence that we will discuss it today in parliament, probably it will
5 be scheduled for today. If not, it will be on the very next day, the law
6 that we have discussed about for a long time, at urgent procedure, to
7 talk about Serb's houses and cottages and Croatian state will take over
8 the ownership over these objects in certain way.
9 "On government session, we have discussed it yesterday and the
10 day before in ... cabinet, we will present the resolutions - how to
11 provide the operational plan for using these objects. Well, we are
12 talking about several dozens of thousand houses, several dozens of
13 thousand houses, if we are talking about cottages, if we are talking
14 about deserted houses, and now in this action ... Flash but many more."
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to the next page in the B/C/S.
16 Q. "We really have to create the most serious strategy how to deal
17 with these problems. Probably according to international law, it would
18 be some temporary solutions, but temporary which will under such
19 circumstances, and as time goes by, will become permanent, and we will
20 be" --
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: "And we will be able to bring our people back,
23 people that have been forced out from Bosnia, but many more we are
24 mentioning today, who will come back from Australia. So, it is not
25 related only to houses, we are talking about properties, so starting
1 today, after the implementation of that law, we have the opportunity to
2 provide complete properties to be used temporarily. We have to work on
3 that, on the government session also and in the inner cabinet within the
4 government's department [sic]. We have to discuss the issues, to avoid
5 this operation becoming automatically a goal at international level, but
6 to present it as a positive step forward."
7 Now, here you're talking about the law that eventually became the
8 Law on the Temporary Takeover of Property, and you discuss the fact that
9 this law would be a way to bring Bosnian Croats and Croats from the
10 diaspora into Croatia
11 taken over, the property of Serbs. Is that right?
12 A. In your question, you left out just one word, which I have used
13 at least 20 times in this brief passage, and that is the word
14 "temporary." Yes, so it all stands, we will take over that property. By
15 law we will preserve it. It will still remain private property if it was
16 private property at first, and then it would be given for temporary use.
17 So that word "temporary" is the key word here. This was accepted
18 in the law and that is the form in which the law was adopted.
19 Q. Well, you said, Temporary, which will under such circumstances,
20 and as time goes by, will become permanent.
21 So what you mean here is that a Croat from Australia will come to
23 labelled a temporary situation, but it will become permanent, and that
24 Croat will say in that house. That's what you mean here; right?
25 A. They will remain permanently in Croatia. As to whether it would
1 be in that house or some other house, time would show. Today -- up to
2 now time has shown that a number of Serbs exchanged or sold their houses.
3 No person had their property confiscated. There was always an exchange
4 or a sale that occurred.
5 Q. And earlier you had referred --
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 If I could tender 65 ter 846.
9 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
12 exhibit number P2711. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P2711 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm about to move to
15 another topic, so if the Chamber prefers, we can take a break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you don't think that you deal with it in the
17 next five minutes, then it's best to take the break now.
18 Will take a break and resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Radic, yesterday you were asked by the Chamber whether you
24 could point to a time between August 1995 and December 1996 when there
25 was some general call to inhabit the country, whether of Croat or Serb
1 ethnicity. And in your answer you referred to the Law on Areas of
2 Special State
3 salaries. And you said:
4 "There is not a single article in it which would actually
5 identify people according to their ethnic backgrounds. Simply this was
6 an attempt to revitalize these regions."
7 And that was at page 40 of yesterday's transcript.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to P2698 now, please.
9 Q. Mr. Radic, a document is about to come up on your screen. And
10 I'd like to you confirm that this law called the Law on Areas of Special
11 State Concern, was the one that you were referring to.
12 A. Yes, this is the one I had in mind.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 7 and page 4 in the B/C/S,
15 where we could see Article 7 of this law.
16 Q. And paragraph 2 of Article 7, near the bottom of the page, sets
17 out the categories of population that will be stimulated in the areas of
18 special state concern.
19 And the first you can see is: "Citizens" -- Croatian citizens
20 who have various expert professions and occupations.
21 The second is citizens who are unemployed or have no
23 And if we turn the page in the B/C/S, the third category is
24 Croatian emigres, returnees from abroad.
25 And the fourth category is those Croats who have been expelled
1 from Serbia
2 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 So when you said yesterday that there wasn't a single article in
4 this law which would identify people according to their ethnic
5 background, there actually were a couple of provisions in this law that
6 identified people according to their ethnic background; right?
7 A. If I could just see the previous page once again, in Croatian,
9 Q. [Microphone not activated] Certainly. If we can go back, please.
10 A. Yes. Article 7 describes the incentive measures for settlement,
11 and here it says citizens of the Republic of Croatia
12 citizens of the Republic of Croatia
13 about settlement of those people who may not be citizens of the Republic
14 of Croatia
15 this area, and prior to this, it describes incentive measures for all the
16 citizens of the Republic of Croatia
17 So certainly there is no exclusion provision of any kind.
18 Q. Well, this law was neither intended -- it was not intended to
19 either encourage or even allow Croatian Serbs to return to these areas.
20 This was about stimulating the settlement of Croats into these areas,
21 wasn't it?
22 A. No. Quite the contrary. I have to say I disagree with you. My
23 position is quite the contrary.
24 The goal of this law was for all the citizens of the Republic of
1 citizens of the Republic of Croatia
2 occupations who can contribute to the economic development of the area.
3 So we are talking about all the citizens of the Republic of
5 Q. Why doesn't it say, then, all the citizens of the Republic of
7 various professions and occupations. And then it says: "Citizens of the
8 Republic of Croatia
10 Those are two very specific categories of Croatian citizens. And
11 then the rest of the article describes categories of ethnic Croats.
12 A. All other articles of this law talk about returnees. So
13 everybody who used to live in that region before. And on top of that, in
14 this Article 7, we also talked about settling of those people who did not
15 live in that area before but they were unoccupied at the time,
16 unemployed, or they were of professions that were relevant for that
17 region at the time.
18 But prior to this, we listed all those who might come back and
19 benefit from this law.
20 So Article 7 simply describes one segment, one segment of people
21 who might come and settle there in addition, and they did not live there
22 before. But even in this Article, paragraph 1, says: "Citizens of the
23 Republic of Croatia
24 Q. Can you please refer me to the provision of this law that talks
25 about returning the people who used to live in that region before.
1 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Mr. President, I think it might be easier
2 if the witness is given a hardcopy in Croatian so he can review. I don't
3 know how long the actual law is.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson will provide him with it. And if the
5 witness from his recollection can't answer the question, then he will
6 have an opportunity to look at that it during the break, the next break,
7 and then ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember this law well and all
9 the previous articles. Even here you can see that some settlements are
10 listed, in which life as such will be stimulated.
11 So this is the law that deals with all the people who live in
12 this area who can come back, who are citizens of the Republic of Croatia
13 and who are entitled to incentives.
14 If you allow me a second, I might find a provision.
15 Q. Mr. Radic, I have very limited time. So I'm going ask you to put
16 the law away for now, you can look at it in the break, and I'm going move
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could please go to 65 ter 7574.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me can I answer with
20 one single sentence. I found the answer to your previous question, if
21 Your Honours' allow me.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the one single sentence is granted. Please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Article 1 of this act,
24 which says:
25 "This act determines the areas of the Republic of Croatia
1 which reconstruction and development will be incentivised."
2 So this is Article 1 of this act.
3 And Article 2 says:
4 "These areas are determined in order to remove the consequences
5 of the war and to accelerate the return of refugees and displaced
7 We used to describe Croats who moved away as displaced persons,
8 as refugees referred to Serbs.
9 So in the first two Articles, have you the answer to your
11 MS. GUSTAFSON:
12 Q. Mr. Radic, refugees there did not refer to Serbs, did it? That
13 referred to refugees from Bosnia
14 consider Croatian Serbs living outside of Croatia to be refugees, did
16 A. They were refugees equally, and refugees were also Serbs from
18 Q. If you could look at the document on your screen now.
19 This is a report from the HINA news agency dated the 4th May,
20 1996, right around the time that this law was passed. And if you could
21 look at where the text after the word "ZAGREB" in all capital letters.
22 "At today's press conference, deputy prime minister and minister
23 of Development and Reconstruction, Jure Radic, spoke about a bill on
24 areas of special state care in which allotting of houses, apartments, and
25 land for agriculture, tax exemptions, and custom privileges, and higher
1 wages are stimulating measures. It is one of the strategic laws of
2 long-term importance, since we are correcting historical injustice, the
3 minister remarked and mentioned that in 1880, 1217 inhabitants lived in
4 Knin, 613 of them Croats, and 435 Serbs. But in 1991 there were 12.331
5 inhabitants, 1660 of them Croats, and 9.867 Serbs. He mentioned examples
6 of a complete disappearance of some Croatian settlements, and he stressed
7 that from the demographic, economic, and other points of view, the law
8 covers the whole territory of the Croatian state, although it is
9 specifically related to two groups of areas: Areas next to the state
10 border, which were occupied until 1995, and their centre is not more than
11 15 kilometres far from the state borders [sic]; and areas which were
12 occupied and do not belong in the first group."
13 Now, first -- do you recall --
14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel.
15 Mr. President, we had a 66(B) from the Office of the Prosecutor
16 concerning a variety of documents, and we did receive some disclosure,
17 but we never, I do not believe, received this from the OTP.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: I can't tell you off the top of my head. I can
20 look into it. But I don't think this falls under the request. Because I
21 don't believe it falls into any of the categories that were requested.
22 MR. KEHOE: Well it certainly does fall into the statements of
23 the media which was requested and was disclosed in other instances by the
24 OTP, so certainly it falls into the same category.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, no that wasn't the request. The request
1 was statements that refer to particular topics, none of which are
2 discussed here.
3 MR. KEHOE: No, I think --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's, at this moment, the document is there. What
5 to do, let's not spend, at this moment, in court, time on whether there
6 was any violation of any obligation by one of the parties at this moment.
7 Not to say that we'll not look into the matter, but not fully litigate it
8 at this moment.
9 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, the -- my first question is, do you recall giving this
12 statement to the press; and is this report accurate, to the best of your
14 A. No, I do not remember that, and having read this now, I can
15 already see that this news report is rather imprecise, as the news
16 reports usually are.
17 But, at that time, on a daily basis, you had a dozen of different
18 information reported in the press concerning our work. So I do not
19 recall this particular instance precisely.
20 Q. Okay. Well, it gives quite specific and precise numbers of
21 people who lived in Knin in 1880 versus 1991, and they attribute that
22 information to you.
23 Looking at it now, are any of those figures incorrect, as far as
24 you know?
25 A. No, I don't believe that they are incorrect. But I can neither
1 confirm these numbers nor deny them. I believe that they do reflect the
2 situation as it was 100 years ago and 15 years ago.
3 Q. So you have no reason to doubt that you did provide these figures
4 as --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, we have two different matters.
6 First, whether the -- the witness says, I don't remember this interview
7 or this statement to the press. And then he said, I have no reasons to
8 doubt the numbers.
9 And then in the next question you say, Therefore you have no
10 doubt that you gave these numbers. That is mixing up two things. So you
11 should first specifically ask the witness, Did you ever, in a press
12 conference, make a comparison between ethnic composition in 1880 and
14 I mean, you say, I don't remember. You say it is imprecise. Did
15 you ever compare, in terms of numbers, the ethnic composition of the
16 population of Knin in 1880 with the composition in 1995?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
19 This link was missing in your suggestion.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. And do you recall referring to this law as a strategic law aimed
22 at correcting a historical injustice?
23 A. No, I cannot remember any such details that I may have said
24 during the press conference. In that period that I was a minister, I
25 probably held about 1000 different press conferences, but, generally
1 speaking, as a rule, journalists provided their impressions, and I never
2 read them afterwards. At least 50 per cent of all the news reports were
3 very imprecise. I used to have -- and I still have a rather negative
4 experience with journalists, and I would never take any news report as a
5 trustworthy document.
6 Q. Okay. Well, you said you couldn't remember any such details. Do
7 you have any specific reason to doubt that you referred to this law on
8 this occasion as aimed at correcting a historical injustice?
9 A. I can neither doubt it or not. I simply do not remember the
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could I tender this document, 65 ter 7574.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President we do have an objection to it, so
14 if the Chamber would MFI
15 issue because we pulled up a message that we sent to the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be MFI'd.
17 Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2712. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps the status of marked for identification.
20 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Can we go to 65 ter 7573, please.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, this is another press report from about a year
23 later, 16 April 1997
24 left hand column and the first full paragraph there under the name, I
25 believe, of the author, Miroslava Rozankovic.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could move it over -- there is some text
2 cut off on the left-hand side in the B/C/S, and perhaps --
3 Q. And the title of this article is: In May another offer to settle
4 abandoned Croatian areas.
5 And the first paragraph says:
6 "Some 50.000 Croats expelled from BiH, Vojvodina, Srijem, and
7 Kosovo have so far been accommodated in the areas of special state
8 concern. From Kostajnica to Glina and Gvozd on one side; and on the
9 other from Benkovac, Obrovac, and Karin, across Northern Dalmatia
10 where there are 30 babies born a month. Represented by the minister of
11 development and reconstruction, Dr. Jure Radic, Croatia
12 would readily accept its every expelled citizen, as it is obliged to do
13 according to the constitution. This state is ready to accept also Croats
14 expelled from the BiH, unless they have the possibility to return to
15 their homes, because they are also Croatian citizens. As a matter of
16 fact, Croatia
17 from abroad, it managed to accommodate as many as half a million refugees
18 and expellees. Croatia
19 and we are all obliged to help in this matter."
20 And then it says those were the words of Minister of
21 Reconstruction and Development, Mr. Jure Radic.
22 Now, this Article written about a year after that law was passed,
23 states that some 50.000 Croats from Bosnia and Serbia
24 accommodated in areas of special state concern. And is -- my question
25 is, is that information accurate, as far as you can recall?
1 A. Well, I can't give any precise numbers, but I believe that this
2 is right. And nearly everything that is stated here, I would restate
3 today again.
4 Q. So you agree with the passage that I read out and have no reason
5 to doubt that you said those words at that time; is that right?
6 A. Yes, I believe this is correct. There were about 50.000 people
7 expelled from Bosnia and Herzegovina who could not return to their homes.
8 Therefore, we provided them with properties that were, for the most part,
9 state owned, so that they could live there.
10 Q. Now, this article doesn't say anything about Serbs from the area
11 returning to their homes. There's just a passage at the end about how
12 Serbs will sell their property in Croatia.
13 And my question for you is: Can you -- are you able to tell the
14 Chamber specifically how -- or even approximately how many Croatian Serbs
15 had returned to this area between May 1996, when this law was passed, and
16 April 1997, when you gave this statement?
17 A. Even here, you warned me on a couple of occasions that I
18 shouldn't describe the entire situation in every single answer I give.
19 So probably here, in this particular interview or press conference I gave
20 statement about the people who came from Bosnia and Herzegovina, who were
21 expelled from Bosnia and Herzegovina. But, at this point, I can say that
22 in that period of time you referred to the number of Serbs who returned
23 was very small. Certainly much smaller than the 50.000 Croats who came
24 there. Later on, the numbers changed; but at that time, that number was
25 very small, indeed.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could I tender this document, please,
2 Your Honours.
3 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
5 Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2713. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P2713 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Could we go to P464, please.
10 Q. Mr. Radic, the document that's about to come up on your screen is
11 a transcript of a meeting you had with President Tudjman on the 23rd of
12 August, 1995. And that's one day after the meeting you had, on the 22nd
13 of August, that you looked at yesterday, the one where you had the map.
14 And this is a meeting that President Tudjman held with certain
15 military officials, and you attended it, and it related to demographics
16 and the placement of various military facilities and military units.
17 And I'd like to go to page 2 in both languages, please.
18 And this is President Tudjman speaking here, part way down this
19 first paragraph, after the pause, three dots in English he says:
20 "It may well be, if we find a proper way for one of the most
21 effective components of state policy to solve our essential problem
22 today, and that is Croatia
23 the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Development and Reconstruction,
24 Dr. Radic, to come to this meeting and talk about the demographic
25 situation in Croatia
1 And then a few lines down, he says:
2 "On the other hand, in order to ... as soon as possible - today
3 it is not so much a matter of changing the kind of population as of
4 populating certain areas, certain places, certain areas."
5 And then he asks you to talk about the situation.
6 And if we move down to the bottom of the page, you thank the
7 President. And then you say:
8 "I think that all of us know that after the liberation of Croatia
9 the biggest problem in Croatia
10 reasons there are fewer and fewer Croats every day. One reason is that
11 many people have emigrated or were forced out in the past for political
12 or economic reasons."
13 Now, just pausing there for a moment, when you say there's fewer
14 Croats every day and you talk about people emigrating or being forced out
15 in the past, is that another reference to the historical injustice that
16 has caused a -- that caused a reduction in the number of Croats over the
17 past, say, 100 years?
18 A. Yes, yes, they are mentioned, especially during Communist rule.
19 Q. And if we could go to the next page. And this is you speaking
20 again, and about six lines down there's a sentence that begins:
21 "But the worst part of this very, very" -- "the worst part of
22 this," sorry, "is a very, very unfavorable distribution of population,
23 that is, of the population that we do have. That is why we have areas
24 that are almost completely empty in the Croatian territory, where there
25 are almost no Croats."
1 And then a few lines further down there's a sentence that begins:
2 "Today ..."
3 And you say:
4 "Today we have analysed in detail the liberated territory and
5 determined the sequence of demographic priorities, that is, the sequence
6 of the territories that are strategically important for Croatia according
7 to where there are no Croats, so that we might try in various ways to
8 populate these areas. In this sequence, the critical territory is the
9 one in the narrowest part of Croatia
10 elsewhere wanted Croatia
11 view, the priority areas in terms of building up the population includes
12 the former municipalities of Vrginmost, Vojnic, and part of Karlovac
13 municipality. That is the territory of Petrova Gora and around that
14 mountain. In these three municipalities before the war, here on this
15 map, where it is marked bright red, this is where only 4.259 Croats
16 lived, while there were 26.298 Serbs. This then is an almost completely
17 empty territory and the number one national priority is to populate this
18 territory with Croats and attempt everything possible to create a
20 My first question, Mr. Radic, is: When you refer to the number
21 of Croats living in this area around Petrova Gora and the number of
22 Serbs, those are the numbers from the 1991 -- or based on the 1991
23 census. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where you say here that -- that this is the -- this is a
1 critical territory in the narrowest part of Croatia where the planners in
3 point of view, the priority areas are the municipalities of Vrginmost,
4 Vojnic, and Karlovac, here you are explaining the need to fill up these
5 strategically important areas with Croats as a way to protect Croatia
6 from the strategic threat that you talk about here, the threat of being
8 Is that right?
9 A. That's right. This is an area -- you were reading, and then you
10 stopped before a key sentence, which states that this was a consequence,
11 the fact that this space is empty, of Greater Serbia-conceived policies,
12 while it was deliberately preparing the aggression, this space was
13 emptied. So when we look at today's structure of Croatia, perhaps it
14 would be a little bit of an anticipating to foresee that all the people
15 would return to their houses.
16 There are too few inhabitants. Any inhabitants -- this is being
17 said at a military session. And this was the thinking while thinking of
18 establishing military units, the thinking was to place a military unit in
19 to one of those areas. We had empty areas, empty accommodation, so it
20 was necessary to bring people from there. Not only from the sentences
21 but from the context you can see that it would be simple to bring the
22 Croatian Army there tomorrow and accommodate them in those apartments,
23 which are empty, and were previously in the possession of the Yugoslav
24 People's Army.
25 Q. Just now you mention the fact that there were too few
1 inhabitants. But in this passage, you focus on the fact that there were
2 only 4.259 Croats and you say: "The number one national priority is to
3 populate this territory with Croats."
4 Here you're not talking about inhabitants in general. You're
5 talking about moving Croats into these areas, aren't you?
6 A. We always have to stay in the context of the story. Why I would
7 talk to the military leadership about the return of the Serbs? I spoke
8 about that in a different place. I spoke about that to the government.
9 Each type of meeting has its own topic. Here we're talking about
10 locating military units. Why we would put them in Zagreb? I said let's
11 go to Vojnic, where we have enough space and the area is empty. We would
12 need -- when talking about education, we would say, Let's send teachers
13 there is. When we're talking about doctors, then we would talk about a
14 specific location where you would need to send doctors.
15 So, depending on the type of meeting, that would be the topic
16 that would be discussed, as appropriate.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, it was discussed about moving certain military
18 facilities into these areas, but that was a way to bring Croats into
19 those areas to fulfil the larger goal. And I'd like to go back a page,
20 again, to where -- in this document, to where President Tudjman says,
21 near the end of his speech, after he says, "Today it is not so much a
22 matter in the change of the kind of population as of populating certain
23 areas," he says:
24 "This means, if you put large commands, training institutions,
25 and so on, in certain places, dozens and hundreds of people will go there
1 who will have to have families and so on, and immediately the situation,
2 the life, and so on, will be different."
3 President Tudjman here is talking about moving military units and
4 institutions into these areas as a means to fulfill the larger goal of
5 populating these areas with Croats; right?
6 A. I didn't find that here, what you were reading here. I could not
7 follow it on my page as having the President say it in quite that way.
8 He said the opposite. Not that we -- not that we're having demographic
9 problems now, but we don't have people anymore.
10 Q. Well, it's the last few lines of the second-last paragraph, where
11 President Tudjman is still speaking, right in the middle of the page.
12 But I'm not interested in pursuing this point.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to --
14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Mr. President. I would ask that the
15 witness be allowed to look at that, get himself oriented on this page,
16 and answer the question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the witness is entitled to answer the question.
18 Ms. Gustafson, could you guide him to where he may find the
19 line --
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Have you found -- sorry.
21 Q. Have you found the passage?
22 A. If you're asking about it, it says today it is not so much a
23 matter of changing the kind of population as of populating certain
25 So we're not talking so much about changing the population but of
1 populating certain places.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We have to give the interpreters the opportunity to
3 translate the words you and the others are speaking.
4 Ms. Gustafson.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. That's right, Mr. Radic, because, right now, in this area, there
7 was essentially nobody. And as you said, the number one national
8 priority was to populate this territory with Croats; right?
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go back again to the next page.
10 A. The first priority was populating the area. At first it was not
11 realistic to expect the displaced Serbs to return within two, three, or
12 five days. And since this was so, it was necessary to bring those
13 people, those citizens that we did have available, so that the area is
14 populated. And the most important thing, the military units, some
15 10 kilometres away from across the border, were still there where the war
16 had not been ended. Mladic was still operating with his military units,
17 only some 10 kilometres away, across the border.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
19 MR. MISETIC: I apologise, Mr. President, there is a phrase that
20 the witness continues to use that I think -- he may want to repeat just
21 so we're sure on the interpretation of the phrase when the -- the
22 reference in page 50, line 23, "not realistic to expect the ..."
23 something Serbs.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you -- I read part of your answer and then ask
25 you to repeat again what you then said.
1 You said:
2 "The first priority was populating the area. At first it was not
3 realistic to expect ..." And then you were talking about apparently
4 persons returning.
5 Could you repeat, what persons you refer to? So not realistic to
6 expect the ... to return.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation], first of all, it's not realistic
8 to expect that the Serbs who had lived in that area and who left the area
9 from the time of Storm to return in the short-term. It is not realistic
10 to expect some of them to return at all. Which ones? Those who had
11 taken part in the armed aggression against Croatia, members of the
12 Yugoslav People's Army, members of the paramilitary units, and so on and
13 so forth.
14 So our estimates and the estimates of the international community
15 were that it was not realistic that such people would return. This is
16 what is being said in this sentence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we are primarily verifying the
18 translation and properly understand what you said.
19 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, back to what you said about this bright red area
22 on the map that you appear to have again at this meeting. You talk about
23 the territory of Petrova Gora, which includes the former municipalities
24 of Vrginmost, Vojnic, and part of Karlovac, and you say this is the part
25 marked bright red.
1 Now, this is the part of the territory where, the day before, you
2 and President Tudjman, had talked about not even 10 percent of Serbs
3 being there ever again; right?
4 A. I drew yesterday on the map the area that I had shown to
5 President Tudjman when we were talking about the idea of not having more
6 than 10 percent of Serbs in the future. So I'm staying on the map that I
7 showed yesterday.
8 At the meeting of the military leadership the map was evidently
9 more precise than the one that we used during our internal conversation
10 the day before. So this more precise map, I think the area covered was
11 not identical. What we're talking about here is a smaller part of larger
12 area. The day before with President Tudjman, I talked about the area
13 between Krupe and Una. And here actually we're talking about two
14 municipalities, the municipality of Vojnic
15 state quite precise figures.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, what Ms. Gustafson asked you is whether
17 these municipalities, that -- whether that was part of the territory
18 where you and President Tudjman had talked about in the context of the,
19 not even 10 per cent.
20 From a very long answer, I take it that a simple "yes" would give
21 us the information Ms. Gustafson is seeking. Because in a rather long
22 explanation, you say it was a smaller part, that was already included in
23 the question; and it was about the territory you and President Tudjman
24 talked about, which was already in the question as well. So a simple
25 "yes" would have given us, perhaps, less detailed information but would
1 certainly have answered the question, because summarizing what you said,
2 it is a yes, if you carefully look at the question.
3 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could go to the
5 next page, please, of this document.
6 Q. And this is you speaking again, Mr. Radic. And you say:
7 "This is a critical point. The area below this, the Slunj area
8 where Croats should be returned is on the same crisis level. It is also
9 quite empty but luckily, there were no Serbs there or there were very
10 few. Therefore, from our point of view, this territory is on the same
11 level, this red and blue area in the narrowest part of Croatia where
13 Now when you say "luckily there were no Serbs or very few Serbs
14 there," that's a reference to the fact that it will be easier to populate
15 this part of the territory with Croats, because there were very few Serbs
16 there before.
17 A. No. When I said "luckily," luckily in this area there were fewer
18 aggressors. We're talking about a couple of days after Storm.
19 Colloquially speaking, when we're talking about Serbs, at least a half of
20 them were aggressors in Croatia
21 people in Slunj. Unfortunately, though, Slunj was completely destroyed.
22 Q. Well, unlike the areas of Vrginmost and Vojnic, which were
23 predominantly Serb in 1991, Slunj was - I'm looking now - about
24 64 per cent Croat and about 29 per cent Serb in 1991; right?
25 A. I assume so. I have no reason to doubt that fact.
1 Q. And can you tell me specifically the circumstances you're
2 referring to that caused you to conclude that there were fewer aggressors
3 in this area? Specifically.
4 A. Absolutely. It wasn't the Croats who were attacking Croatia
5 There was a small number -- I mean, I don't understand what the point of
6 your question is. I didn't understand, of course, that the Croats from
7 Slunj were not attacking Croatia
8 completely destroyed it.
9 Q. Well, I asked you whether, when you said there were fewer Croats
10 in Slunj -- or, sorry, fewer Serbs or very few Serbs in Slunj, if that
11 was a reference to the ethnic breakdown of Slunj, essentially, and you
12 said, No, there were more aggressors there. And I would like to ask you
13 specifically the circumstances you were talking about that caused you to
14 conclude there were more aggressors there.
15 A. I don't understand your question --
16 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some confusion. I do understand the
17 witness to say, that if it's -- if you're lucky that there are not many
18 Serbs, that since the witness told us that the Serbs were the aggressors,
19 that means that there are less aggressors as well. And to that extent,
20 put Serbs on an equal footing with -- with aggressors.
21 Now, if Serbs are the aggressors, that's at least how I
22 understand it, that's it's not primarily on the basis of ethnicity that
23 you are happy that there are less, but since this ethnicity appeared to
24 be the aggressors, that you were happy with less aggressors.
25 It's a bit -- perhaps a bit of a semantic issue. But this is how
1 I understood your testimony, and this is also how I understood your lack
2 of understanding of the follow-up question.
3 Ms. Gustafson.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Radic, moving on to the next paragraph on this page you say:
6 "The next priority, the third on the scale, depending on whether
7 we should include into our considerations the territory of Herceg-Bosna,
8 or Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could turn the page.
10 Q. "... the third priority, the third on the scale, depending on
11 whether we should consider the territories of Herceg-Bosna and Bosnia
13 "Therefore, if the liberated territory around Livanjsko Polje,
14 Glamoc, Kupres, Grahovo, and Drvar is populated with Croats in the
15 future, then the area around Knin would become of smaller significance."
16 Now, Mr. Radic, here you're explaining that if the areas in
18 that helps to protect the areas around Knin, because it would be further
19 into the depth of Croatian-populated territory.
20 Is that right?
21 A. Yes. At the time, that area was freed by the Croatian Defence
22 Council and in the strategic sense of looking at Croatia there were no
23 major defence threats if Croats were on the other side of the border. As
24 opposite to the other border where Serbs were on the other side of the
25 border and where a serious war was still continuing. So this is a
1 conversation before the Dayton Accords.
2 Q. And this part of Bosnia
3 Grahovo, and Drvar - that in 1991 that was an area with a heavy majority
4 of Serbs; right?
5 A. That is correct. But generally speaking the population there was
6 very sparse. And similar to the situation in Croatia, many of them were
7 members of the Yugoslav People's Army in these areas next to the border.
8 Q. And by this point, in August of 1995, most of the Serbs from
9 those municipalities had left, in connection with their liberation by
10 Croatian forces and Bosnian Muslim forces; is that right?
11 A. Yes. The situation was similar to that in Croatia.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to P463 now.
14 Q. And now, Mr. Radic, we're going back to the conversation you had
15 the day before with President Tudjman, the one that you looked at
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 35 of the English, and
18 page 55 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. Now, here, Mr. Radic, at the top of the page, you're talking to
20 the President. And you say:
21 "You did a perfect job, history will be the judge of that.
22 Still, the coming period is very important. You have to prepare Croatia
23 for the future time, that is the main task. Croatia has to avoid facing
24 the situation like Yugoslavia
25 And then it trails off.
1 And you continue:
2 "That often happens after the period characterised by the strong
3 personalities. That is very important. We have to create conditions to
4 prevent Croats from ..." and it trails off again.
5 And you say:
6 "It was a beautiful picture to see the people from Varazdin and
7 Split entering ... Knin together. On the one wall in Kupres, the
8 message, 'Cedo, you will not come back' can be seen. Our future has to
9 be built on such things ..."
10 Now, the name Cedo, short for Cedomir, is a typical Serb name;
12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, if I may.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 One second.
15 MR. MISETIC: I think the witness has also picked up on it, but
16 there is now a --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then if there is something that the witness picked
18 up, then we'll invite him, rather than you at this moment.
19 Yes, a question was put to you, and is there anything --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two remarks on my behalf.
21 This may be a mistake where it says "Kupres" because prior to that you
22 can see on a wall in Knin. And I said that the people from Varazdin and
24 will not come back."
25 But the point I wanted to make to the President was that Croats
1 from different areas were together, and it is actually in a dialect, "you
2 will not come back," in a dialect of Zagorje, a region in Croatia
3 said here, Even Croats from Zagorje, and one of the accused here are from
4 Zagorje, so they came to Knin together with people from Split. So we are
5 talking about unity of different areas of Croatia.
6 This is what my point was. I wanted to underline that people
7 from Varazdin who speak in Kajkavian dialect of Croatian wrote on the
8 wall, "Cedo you will not come back," [B/C/S spoken], but this is in the
9 dialect; that is my point.
10 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, he has explained what I was going to
11 say, so that's fine.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I took it that ...
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm confused here.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So am I, a bit.
15 Could you perhaps, then, clearly explain what those words, "Cedo
16 you will not come back," mean exactly.
17 Who or what is Cedo? And could you please better explain that.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cedo meant Chetnik. So you can
19 translate it into, "Chetnik, you will not come back." You will not
21 So colloquially speaking the word "Cedo" was used to designate
22 Chetnik. So this was the worst possible version of occupier of Croatia
23 But as I said, the point of this conversation I had with the
24 President was for me to explain to him that the units that came to Knin
25 were not only for -- from Dalmatia
1 a unity of all the Croatian areas.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you agree with me that, "Cedo, you will not
3 come back," is language which could be understood in various ways?
4 Occupier, don't come back; or Chetniks - that is a derogatory word for
5 people of a certain ethnicity - don't come back?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, whoever read this
7 message understood this in one single way, and this was, Occupier, you
8 will not return. So there were different names for Serbs, but if you
9 said "Cedo," it -- it meant Chetnik. It is similar in Croatian.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, but you say it would be
11 understood by everyone as "occupier." I asked you whether you would
12 agree with me that the language in itself, not referring to occupier but
13 to Chetniks, could also be understood as a reference to Serb population.
14 Not to say that -- you say what you intended to say, but I'm asking
15 whether you agree with me that the language in itself is not unambiguous.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to say. We would have
17 to analyse it more in depth. Possibly there could have been people who
18 could understood it in different ways; there, I agree with you. But the
19 majority of people at that time in Croatia
20 referring strictly to the occupiers.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yesterday you told us that it was difficult
22 for you to tell us what was on other people's mind. But here you can
23 tell us what -- I'm not arguing about this, but --
24 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Could we go to page 24 of the English
1 and page 36 of the B/C/S, please.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, this is a portion of the transcript where you and
3 President Tudjman talk about the division of Bosnia.
4 And you say -- and this is at the top in the B/C/S and in the
5 middle in the English:
6 "Look, we can get Kupres back. It is unreasonable that they do
7 not want to return but still stay in the hotels. They say that some hill
8 above them has not been liberated yet. They call it Demirovac, which is
9 directly above Kupres. As I was told, there were Serb villages in this
10 area, which are now being settled by the Muslims. Our people refuse
11 that. We have to find a way to return people over there. Kupres, it is
12 not strategically my priority, but this hinterland of Dubrovnik, that is
13 also important question. We have to keep Stolac Croat, probably Trebinje
14 if ..."
15 And then you say: "This is the priority, just as Petrova Gora as
17 And President Tudjman says: "If we could do something with
19 And you say: "That will be difficult with the Muslims."
20 And President Tudjman says: "The best solution is to make a deal
21 with Muslims. On the other hand, our strategy has to focus on keeping
22 them close to us and convert them to Croats gradually. That will be very
23 difficult, but not as with Serbs today, because Serbs had Belgrade and
24 power; they won't."
25 Now, first of all, you're describing that you're having trouble
1 moving the Croats from Kupres back to Kupres, because there are Muslims
2 living in areas where Serbs used to live, and the Croats from Kupres
3 don't want to move back for that reason.
4 Is that right?
5 A. Kupres was majority populated the by Croats prior to the war, and
6 an I knew a lot about this situation because they spent their refugee
7 years in Baska Voda, which is my place of birth. So I talked to them on
8 many occasions, and I said to them as soon as the conditions are met,
9 please go back home. And then they said they didn't want to go back
10 because the Demirovac was still occupied by Serbs. Serbs fired still on
11 Kupres from Demirovac, and this is what they said. They said this is why
12 we are staying still in hotels in Baska Voda. So I told the president
13 here, Let us do something about this because their houses are empty, and
14 they should be able to go back. Why stay in the hotels?
15 Q. Well, earlier you said that the Serb population had left this
16 area, and it had been liberated. And in this passage, you say that:
17 "There are Serb villages which are now being settled by Muslims
18 and our people refuse that."
19 A. When I say "our people do not want to," I meant our people do not
20 want to go back to their homes. Not settle other areas. They do not
21 need other areas since they have their own homes there.
22 Q. Now, here, again -- or here President Tudjman refers to the
23 strategy of keeping Muslims close and gradually converting them to
24 Croats. And he contrasts that with the Serbs who had Belgrade and power.
25 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I would just ask that the
1 translation of that word has been translated and "converts to Croats."
2 But there may be a challenge to that. And if we look in the original,
3 perhaps the witness can explain what he think that is that means.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Perhaps the witness could just read that sentence
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If could you guide the witness then --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the President meant.
8 He spoke about this often. He said that Muslims in Bosnia were a
9 strategic partner to Croats. And when he said "to Croatise them," he
10 meant to make them more European so that the Muslims in Bosnia
11 with Croats, should become elements of the western civilisation. This is
12 what I think I can say to make it as simple as possible.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON:
14 Q. Okay. And If you could also just read that sentence out, the
15 second sentence of President Tudjman's speech that begins, "On the other
16 hand ..."
17 A. "That will be very difficult. They will not be easy, but it will
18 be an easier problem than it is -- than the Serbs are to today because
19 the Serbs had Belgrade
20 Do you want me to comment on this?
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that when you refer to the second sentence
22 that it is a sentence which may not be the second sentence in Croatian,
23 because at least I do see a full stop after -- in the beginning.
24 You are invited to read where it says: "On the other hand, our
25 strategy has to focus ..."
1 Could you please read that portion slowly.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, so the second half of the
3 first sentence which says:
4 "But strategically we have to count on the fact that there is no
5 other way but to carry the Muslims on our backs and to gradually Croatise
7 I believe I explained what this means in my answer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that's clear now what is in the
9 original language. One sentence is translated as two separate sentences.
10 I don't think that's the problem, but that caused the confusion.
11 Please proceed.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Yesterday you were shown a transcript from December of 1996 that
14 had to do with the reintegration of Eastern Slavonia and how the Serbs --
15 what to do with the Serbs in that area. And there was discussion about
16 buying their properties versus allowing them to return.
17 Do you recall that general discussion?
18 A. Yes, I recall that discussion from yesterday.
19 But yesterday I wasn't aware that we spoke about
20 Eastern Slavonia
21 from there.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Now, if we could go to P466, please.
23 Q. And this is a transcript from the 30th of August, 1995
24 a preliminary question: At this time, meaning the late August 1995, the
25 only part of Croatia
1 Eastern Slavonia
2 Is that right? And if could you please answer with a yes or no,
3 that would be helpful.
4 A. No. There were also other parts of Croatia, for example, the
5 region around Delnice. The Serbs stayed there throughout the war as
6 loyal citizens of Republic of Croatia
7 there, so my answer is no. Srpska Morovica [phoen] and the surrounding
8 region, the Serbs had majority there throughout the aggression, and these
9 Serbs were on the side of Croatia
10 Q. And if you could just briefly say what part of Croatia that area
11 is, and roughly how many Serbs lived there at the time.
12 A. This is a region between Ogulin, northern side of the mountain
13 Bijelo Lacica [phoen], there was about a dozen villages with several
14 thousands Serbs who were majority there. I visited them at the time. I
15 assisted in the reconstruction of an Orthodox monastery there after the
16 war, and I know that they stayed there as loyal citizens of Croatia
17 throughout the war.
18 Q. Okay. If we could go to page four of the English and page 8 of
19 the B/C/S here.
20 Now, Mr. Radic, you were not present at this meeting. I would
21 just like to show you a short passage from it.
22 It starts where Mr. Valentic is speaking. And that's at the
23 bottom in the English. And here they're talking about the terms of a
24 peaceful settlement in Eastern Slavonia.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the right page in English?
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: I think so, Your Honour. It's at the bottom of
2 the page, Mr. Valentic speaking. At the top in the B/C/S.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we get the remainder of the text in B/C/S
4 on the next page.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: No, I believe it's at the top in the B/C/S.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, now I see it. Thank you.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. And Mr. Valentic says:
9 "I do not know much about these problems, but I know from our
10 department, because it is often mentioned that there is a big number of
11 Serbs from Western Slavonia that live in the area of Baranja and
13 And then someone says: "Around 30.000 of them."
14 And he says:
15 "So, it means that we should expect the request for their return
16 to western Slavonia
17 And President Tudjman says:
18 "That is a special problem, and we are going to concentrate on
20 And if we go to the next page on the English Mr. Valentic says:
21 "Yes, I am only warning you because I think this is one of
22 important problems, as well as economic issues."
23 And then President Tudjman says:
24 "The next thing I wanted to say is that we should and we could
25 put it like this - Serbs that come from Bosnia and from other places,
1 they should leave."
2 And someone says: "Yes."
3 And Mr. Valentic says: "What, together with our Serbs?"
4 And President Tudjman says:
5 "Together with our Serbs, and we have to be very flexible about
6 it because of the international community. We should suggest do replace
7 them with" --
8 Sorry, this is the next page in the B/C/S.
9 "We should suggest to replace them with Croats in Vojvodina and
11 And then someone says: "But we cannot write it down."
12 And President Tudjman says: "What?"
13 And Mr. Milas says:
14 "Why? That option has been carried out always after the war."
15 And then President Tudjman says:
16 "Look, it is better not to complicate life for them and for us."
17 And then Mr. Milas says:
18 "That is a so-called option that exists in all international
19 agreements after the First World War."
20 Now, I understand you were not at this meeting, but as a member
21 of the Croatian leadership and as someone deeply involved in demographic
22 and population issues, I presume you were aware that the Croatian
23 leadership was considering exchanging the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia for
24 Croats in the Vojvodina and Serbia
25 Did you know about that?
1 A. No, I didn't know that. But having read this now, I believe that
2 you've missed the point of this topic.
3 Here they talked about Serbs who were not Croatian citizens and
4 who could not become citizens of Croatia. They did not meet the
6 So these were Serbs from Bosnia
8 Croatian citizens, and they had no conditions to apply to acquire the
9 Croatian citizens. So this is my understanding, but I obviously have to
10 make a reservation because I wasn't present at the meeting. In the first
11 sentence somebody said what about Serb from Bosnia? So this was the
12 point, the Serbs from Croatia
14 Q. Well, if we could go to the previous page in the B/C/S.
15 President Tudjman does say that:
16 "We should put it like this, Serbs that came from Bosnia
17 other places, they should leave."
18 And then Mr. Valentic says: "What, together with our Serbs?"
19 Now that reference to "our Serbs" can only mean a reference to
20 Croatian Serbs; right?
21 A. I wasn't present at the meeting, so I cannot comment on the
22 detail, but I was here drawn to the fact that the President talked about
23 Serbs who came there.
24 But as I said, I wasn't present, so I do not have the full
25 picture. But later on I was personally charged with reintegration of the
1 Croatian Danube region. I was, myself, president of the commission for
2 reintegration, and this is the only successful reintegration example
3 worldwide, where the Serbs stayed and Croats came back.
4 So when you asked me if I knew what -- that there was a plan to
5 move them out, I know that there was no plan to move them out, but the
6 plan was for them to stay.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we go to 65 ter 4661, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, how much time your next topic take,
10 approximately because we're at a point --
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: This is the same topic, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Same topic, yes. Because we have to take a break
14 MS. GUSTAFSON:
15 Q. Now, this, Mr. Radic, is a transcript of a meeting you had with
16 President Tudjman on the 28th of January, 1996.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 7 in the English and
18 page 28 in the B/C/S, please.
19 Q. And right at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, Mr. Radic, you
21 "My logic in thinking this over is to find the quickest way of
22 returning the Croats to Vukovar."
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we turn the page.
24 Q. "This is the question I have been asking myself, hence the idea
25 was at what pace can we return the Croats?"
1 And then if we go to the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, you
3 "It would be good if we could issue written decisions in advance
4 to the people that we wish to ... part of this is an idea that we force
5 some of the residents of Posavina who will not be returning to Posavina,
6 into that space, because I see no other way of placing it under our
7 control but to ..."
8 And then the President" --
9 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Counsel, could you give us a page
10 reference on that.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, it's the next page in English.
12 MR. KEHOE: Oh.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: I apologise.
14 Q. And then the President says:
15 "Or to exchange these Serbs for our Croats in Backa."
16 Now Backa is an area in the Vojvodina in Serbia; right?
17 A. Yes, Backa is in Vojvodina.
18 Q. And here you and President Tudjman are discussing ways to
19 increase the number of Croats and reduce the number of Serbs in
20 Eastern Slavonia
21 Posavina into that area, or exchanging Serbs in Eastern Slavonia for
22 Croats in the Vojvodina.
23 Is that right?
24 A. The first part of this conversation that you read is that I note
25 that I don't really expect that Croats would really return to that area,
1 that native Croatians, those from Vukovar, would not be coming back in
2 the same way that the Serbs from Vojnici would not be coming back. So we
3 have empty apartments, and at the same time we have Croats from Posavina
4 who are somewhere. It's better then for them to go to Vukovar than
5 somewhere else. But on the margins, we're also referring to those
6 people, those Serbs who do not wish to accept Croatian authority. We had
7 that earlier when Croats from Backa and Srijem exchanged their homes with
8 Serbs from Western Slavonia. This was not something that was encouraged
9 by us, but this was something that was initiated on their part. I know
10 many examples of Serbs, even from Zadar, who were JNA officers and had
11 lovely houses in Zadar. They escaped from Croatia not during Storm but
12 before. They came to Vojvodina, and then they exchanged houses with the
13 Croats in Vojvodina. They moved to Vojvodina, and the Croats went to
14 Zadar, for example. But this was before the peaceful reintegration.
15 I told the President, on the basis of facts, my concerns that
16 many Croats who spent eight years being as displaced persons in Zagreb
17 would not want to go back to Vukovar but would stay in Zagreb because
18 they already had jobs in Zagreb
19 This was something that happened in large numbers. It was not individual
20 during the war, another life happens, where then preconditions are
21 created for a person not to come back.
22 Q. Just to go back to an earlier part of your answer. You said you
23 knew plenty examples of Serbs, for example, from Zadar, who had lovely
24 houses in Zadar, they escaped from Croatia, they came to Vojvodina, and
25 then they exchanged houses with the Croats.
1 But President Tudjman here isn't talking about people who have
2 already left the areas that they lived in, exchanging houses. He is
3 talking about exchanging people; right?
4 A. No. What he is talking is that we had the experience from
5 five years before, or three years before, that, when the Croatian came
6 into power, the person who was in the JNA or somewhere, they're not going
7 to stay in Croatia
8 also leave Vukovar. This is what we're talking about. Once we establish
9 power, we know. We have the experience. Persons like that left before
10 and they're going to go any way. So if they're going to go, it would be
11 better to have them exchange their property, then have this peaceful
12 reintegration. We were talking about empty properties -- well, look, all
13 the policemen in Croatia
15 brought there from other areas. They're not natives, and we're not even
16 referring to the JNA here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, I'm looking at the clock.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's fine, Your Honour. This is a good time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: For scheduling purposes, I would like to invite the
20 usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
21 We'll have a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, as far as time is concerned.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I think I need about another
25 20 minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes. Yes, that makes it approximately the
2 two sessions, as you announced.
3 If you could save a bit more time, that would be appreciated, but
4 you will not take much time after the break.
5 We'll have a break and resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 If we could look at P2536, please.
12 Q. Mr. Radic, the document that's about to come on your screen is a
13 text of a speech that President Tudjman gave in Vukovar, at the Vukovar
14 railway station, on the 8th of June, 1997. And according to the text,
15 there was a Croatian government delegation there.
16 Do you happen to recall now whether you were present at this
18 A. Absolutely, yes, I remember.
19 Q. Now, if we could go to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the
21 And this is the first full paragraph in the B/C/S, and it's the
22 third paragraph in the English that begins: "Ladies and gentlemen ..."
23 And President Tudjman says:
24 "Ladies and gentlemen, all those Serbs who are citizens of
1 county and the neighbouring Osijek-Baranja county, and the entire
2 Danubian area, if they want to return to their homes in western parts of
4 14.500 have already returned. If they do not want to return, we shall
5 give them compensation so that they can go wherever they wish."
6 "Out of humanitarian reasons Croatia will resolve individual
7 cases of Serbs who fled Croatia
8 personally invited them to stay. Out of humanitarian reasons we will
9 resolve their cases so they can return to Croatia to rejoin their
11 "Of course, there can be no question of 200.000 or 150.000 people
12 returning, because then we would again have conflict and war. Nobody in
13 the world can force us to do that.
14 "In any case, they themselves - 90 per cent of them - do not wish
15 to return. But such is history. After World War II around one and a
16 half million people - those so-called [sic] Turks and Muslims - left this
17 region for turkey, and around 1 million Greeks went to Greece
18 "Following World War II over 12 million people have been
19 displaced throughout Europe
20 every evil, some good may come. So, let us, first of all, create
21 conditions for a peaceful life for the Croatian people, the Serb and
22 other ethnic communities in Croatia
23 normalisation of good-neighbourly relations between Croatia
24 and Yugoslavia
25 Scandinavisation of the area based on mutual recognition of nations and
1 mutual respect, and then ethnic minorities will enjoy complete freedom
2 and quality."
3 When President Tudjman says there is no question of 200.000 or
4 150.000 people returning, he is referring to the Croatian Serbs living
5 outside Croatia
6 Is that right?
7 A. Yes. He is saying that there is no likelihood that all of the
8 150.000 people would come back, because a large number among them is of
9 people who were directly connected to the aggression on Croatia. He is
10 aware that those who were commanding or participated in the aggression
11 against Croatia
12 Q. Thank you. Again, you've gone beyond the question that I asked,
13 so please focus on answering just the specific question.
14 So when he says -- and when he says:
15 "There's no question of these Croatian Serbs returning, because
16 then we would again have conflict and war," that reflects his view that
17 it would result in a strategic threat to Croatia if these people were
18 allowed to return; right?
19 A. Absolutely. If the officers of the JNA would return, of course,
20 we would be threatened. I don't see anything that would be disputable
22 He said that some people would return. 15.000 or so. But not
23 all of them, first of all, because they did not wish to return, and,
24 secondly, because we did not wish for the aggressors to come back.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, again there is a translation issue,
2 and I apologise to Ms. Gustafson, but there's a word that the witness is
3 using that is not in the English translation but is in the original.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And?
5 MR. MISETIC: It's right before the 150 or 200.000.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look.
7 In the original text it -- translation of the text? Is that --
8 MR. MISETIC: Yes. If you look at --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: The original is the English just --
11 JUDGE ORIE: The original is the English.
12 MR. MISETIC: I'm sure that President Tudjman spoke in Croatian,
13 so I don't know ...
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Right, but this text came from an English report,
15 and we translated into Croatian.
16 MR. MISETIC: Then we would have to check exactly, because this
17 is it precisely the dilemma.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could you point at where the difference,
19 in your view, is, Mr. Misetic. Because if it is not a problem between
20 Croatian and English, then it may be a problem between English and
22 MR. MISETIC: In Croatian it says:
23 "We cannot talk anymore about all 150 or 200.000 returning."
24 And in the English it says:
25 "We cannot talk about 150 to 200.000 returning."
1 I think there is a difference.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: And, Your Honour, I apologise, I believe that
3 these are both originals. We found them separately.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Both originals. So then we have a problem, because
5 nowhere in the bottom it says that the authoritative is --
6 Okay. That is on the record, now, that we are looking at two
7 different versions and which one refers to return of all, and then the
8 number, whereas the other does not.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON:
11 Q. Now just going back to an answer you just give, Mr. Radic. You
13 "He said that some people would return, 15.000 or so."
14 Was that number 15.000, was that a number that was considered an
15 acceptable number for return?
16 A. No, no. It would have been better if more people were to have
17 returned. At that time I was the minister for returns, so it would have
18 been better for more people to return. But, obviously, it was necessary
19 for the conditions to ripen and to be created for larger numbers of
20 people to return. I personally would not be happy with 14 or 15.000 only
21 returning. I would prefer for this figure to be bigger.
22 Q. So when you referred to the number 15.000, that wasn't your view,
23 that was a number President Tudjman used; is that right?
24 A. No. I quoted what President Tudjman said at the time in Vukovar,
25 and he said 14.500. You're asking me to comment on the
1 President Tudjman's speech which he gave. I didn't give any speech at
2 the time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, let me tell you how I at least
4 understand this line.
5 About 14 and a half thousand have already returned.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, Your Honour, I was referring to an answer
7 the witness gave.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that's the case, that was unclear to me,
9 but --
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'll just move on.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- if it was clear to everyone, let's proceed.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON:
13 Q. And, Mr. Radic, when President Tudjman talks about 12 million
14 people being displaced after World War II and then says out of every evil
15 some good may come, he's referring to the population displacements after
16 World War II as a good that came out of the evil of that war; is that
18 A. President Tudjman is a historian; I'm an engineer. I cannot
19 really comment on these historical numbers and theories.
20 Q. Fair enough. And yesterday you were asked questions by the
21 Chamber on this general topic, and you said that you wanted as large a
22 number of people to return as possible, and you said that this included
23 Serbs and that increasingly reached the conclusion that the correct thing
24 to do was to offer everyone to return.
25 Now, at this time, in June of 1997, it was not the view of the
1 leadership that everyone should return, or that the -- it was not the
2 view of the leadership that all the Croatian Serbs outside of Croatia
3 should return, and that is reflected by President Tudjman's speech;
5 A. That is correct, with the explanation that, in order for somebody
6 to return, at least two steps have to be made, accept Croatian
7 citizenship, become a Croatian citizen, and to submit a request for
8 return. Return is a question of free will. It's not something that can
9 be a result of force. We cannot force somebody to return. They have to
10 take Croatian citizenship and submit a request to return.
11 Out of this 150 to 200.000 do not wish or did not wish to be
12 Croatian citizens. They don't want that still today, 15 years after
13 these events.
14 Q. Well, the Chamber has heard quite a bit of evidence -- sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, we are moving further and further
16 away from what was the -- the subject matter of the examination-in-chief.
17 We focussed very much on what was said, especially in 1995. Not to say
18 that we heard a bit about later developments, but several times, the
19 Chamber said, What happened afterwards is a different matter than what
20 was discussed in mid and late 1995.
21 Now, we are not only looking at what happened later but also on
22 what was said at that time. Some of the matters, I mean, individual or
23 mass return, having dealt with already quite considerably and where,
24 apparently, this witness has -- I wouldn't say no knowledge but limited
25 knowledge, and it certainly moves away further and further from what the
1 Chamber had on its mind.
2 Do you have any other questions which brings us closer again --
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would like to move to the 8th -- sorry, 11th
6 August 1995
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you said you would need approximately
8 20 minutes. Would that be your last topic?
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Two brief topics, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then please try to do it as briefly as possible.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 20 in the English and
12 page 47 in the B/C/S -- oh, sorry, I apologise. We've uploaded a full
13 English translation. I'm not sure if it has been linked into e-court.
14 The doc ID of the full English translation is 01870803 --
15 0187-0803-ET-1. If that could be brought up alongside the B/C/S.
16 And if we could have page 47 in the B/C/S, which should be
17 12 pages before this one. And page 20 in the English.
18 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I'm sorry, and pardon me if I'm behind
19 here. But I only get a 17-page document, and I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Ms. Gustafson just referred to a full
21 translation having been uploaded, and that's what she's dealing with now.
22 Is that correctly understood, Ms. Gustafson?
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: I hope so, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That is at least what is on her mind, whether what
25 is on our screen is the what on her mind is ...
1 MR. KEHOE: In the spirit of trying to follow along, it's just a
2 bit difficult, and maybe I could just -- excuse me.
3 I'm going to get the assistance of our Case Manager.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: We need to go back 12 pages in the B/C/S. It
5 should be page 47, but I'm not ... I may have made a mistake.
6 There we go. And if we could move to the bottom in the English.
7 Q. Mr. Radic, this is you speaking right after Operation Storm on
8 the 11th of August --
9 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Counsel, I'm sorry. I don't mean to
10 interrupt. What page are we talking about in the English? I have this
11 uploaded, but --
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: It's the 20th page. There are a number of
13 different page numbers at the bottom of the page because it's a number of
14 different pieces of different translations, it was disclosed --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's on our screen now. And it's page 8 in the hard
16 copy version, which allows you to find it.
17 MR. KEHOE: Thank you.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON:
19 Q. Here, Mr. Radic, you're talking about the fact that:
20 "The full effect of Operations Flash and Storm is that expelled
21 persons are returning to their homes, 120.000 persons, Croats from those
22 areas are still expelled persons."
23 And in the next paragraph, you talk about a detailed analysis
24 aimed at creating conditions as soon as possible for returns.
25 And if we go to the next page in the English, you discuss three
1 waves of Croats to return. The first wave will be those places where
2 houses have remained intact, houses of Croats that had been settled by
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we go to the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Are we on the right page in English? I think the
6 hard copy -- yes, now we are.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: There we go.
8 Q. And then you talk about the second surge. And that's at the
9 bottom of the page and moving to the next page in the B/C/S. And that's
10 Croats returning to liberated apartments and houses in areas near to
11 where their destroyed houses are. And about halfway through that
12 paragraph, you talk about the third group, the third wave, which is
13 return to those villages or small Croatian towns that were totally
14 destroyed, such as Sveti Rok, Lovinac, Saborsko, et cetera.
15 And if we go to the next page in the B/C/S and the bottom of the
16 page in English, you're speaking again.
17 And in the next page in the English, right after you refer again
18 to Lovinac and Sveti Rok, you ask that there be a meeting in a small
19 group to agree precisely what places it will be, what points in a
20 strategic sense to fill with people in the coming days.
21 And you say:
22 "It is most urgent, most important in places where the return can
23 take place in a month at the most."
24 And you talk about beginning instruction in schools.
25 Now, here you describe these three waves of Croats that will be
1 returned to these liberated areas as urgently as possible. And the
2 Chamber has heard evidence that quite a number of Croats did start moving
3 into these areas quite soon after Operation Storm.
4 So my question is: Were you successful, were you able to move in
5 quite a number of Croats in these three categories as quickly as you
6 indicated that you aimed to do in this transcript?
7 A. No, not even close.
8 Q. Well, in a transcript that you were shown the other day of the
9 5th of October government session, the one that was in the binder that
10 you took, you said that you been able to settle 8.000 Croats in the areas
11 of Vojnic and Vrginmost.
12 Is that an example of you achieving some results in this area of
13 returning people to the area after Operation Storm?
14 A. That is one example where we had settled displaced persons from
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was actually doing my best to give you a
16 shorter answer, but now you're evidently looking for an explanation.
17 The programme of return was proceeding much slower than we
18 envisioned that -- a week after Storm in an ideal enthusiastic kind of
19 situation, as expected, that a person who had spent a few years away form
20 his home, in some hotel or another apartment, couldn't wait for the
21 moment to return to his home. But I saw that this was not like that,
22 because those five years of living somewhere else created many new
24 Q. Are you able to recall now approximately how many thousands of
25 Croats you had been able to bring back into the area by, for example, the
1 5th of October, when you referred to the Croats in Vojnic and Vrginmost.
2 A. No, I cannot remember that. But I remember well that, at the end
3 of the government's term of office, after five years of working we said
4 that we had managed to return 200.000 people to their homes, that we had
5 created the conditions and restored or reconstructed the homes for that
6 number of people. But I really cannot remember the exact figures for
7 that period, for which period.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. That's all the question I have.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic, for answering my questions.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: And I would, just as a housekeeping matter, ask
12 that this full translation be replaced for the one in e-court, and I also
13 neglected to tender 65 ter 4661.
14 MR. KEHOE: I take it that's the newspaper article; is that
15 right? I take that back. It's a presidential transcript of
16 January 28th.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's right.
18 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Judge.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, leave is granted to replace an
20 incomplete translation by the complete translation in relation to ...
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: 2673? That leave is granted. Could you please
23 assign a number to 65 ter 4661.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P2714. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
1 Mr. Radic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe.
2 Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
3 Mr. Kehoe, first of all, we have to conclude today five minutes
4 earlier than normal. Would you please keep that in mind.
5 Would you please also keep in mind that from the examination by
6 the Chamber and then by the cross-examination, it turns out that on
7 various matters that the same issues arise again, and what the Chamber
8 would like that avoid is that by taking another approach, we end up with
9 the same answers which would then primarily emphasise that from whatever
10 point of view you look at it, you would get similar answers, and I think
11 that the Defence should avoid that. We're here not to emphasise the
12 answers we've already heard, but, rather, to have the evidence primarily
13 tested within the guide-lines the Chamber gave for cross-examination of
14 Chamber witnesses.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you, and in that vein, I'll
17 use a Latin expression "festina lente." And I will try to move quickly
18 but not too quickly and avoid topics that have come up before.
19 JUDGE ORIE: In Greek it is speude bradeos.
20 MR. KEHOE: I never took Greek, Judge, unfortunately.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radic.
23 I would like to cover some topics, and as the President just said
24 we're not going to repeat everything we did in the past.
25 But I would like, for one moment, to contextualise some of these
1 conversations. And I'm talking about the conversations that began with
2 you and President Tudjman and others immediately after Operation Storm.
3 We've seen some discussion on 462 both yesterday and today which took
4 place just days after Storm, 11 August 1995.
5 But I would like do put into context a series of events and your
6 mindset, at least, in talking to President Tudjman as to what you're
7 talking about at that particular time.
8 Now this morning you had mentioned that you had had some
9 experience as a result of Operation Flash and the situation in
10 Western Slavonia, going back to May/June of 1995.
11 Now, in Western Slavonia, there was in fact a large element of
12 the Serb population who voluntarily left Western Slavonia after
13 Operation Flash, didn't they?
14 A. Absolutely. So here in front of us we have the minutes from one
15 or two meetings, but in those days, I personally spoke to
16 President Tudjman for at least 20 times concerning different topics. You
17 are mentioning the situation in Western Slavonia, but we can also say
18 that many Serbs left other parts of Croatia as soon as Croatia
19 independence. I believe as many as 20.000 Serbs left Zagreb in the
20 period after the proclamation of independence because they simply could
21 not accept Croatia
22 So we spoke about the overall context of all the events that
23 happened during the war.
24 Q. And I would like to focus our attention, at least initially, on
25 the experience of the Republic of Croatia
1 Operation Storm.
2 MR. KEHOE: And if could I bring up on the screen 65 ter 520,
3 which is a report of the Security Council dated 9 June 1995. Excuse me,
4 65 ter 520. Yes, that's it.
5 Q. As you can see -- just waiting for the B/C/S. As you can see,
6 Mr. Radic, it is a UN report. And I would like to turn to the fourth
7 page in the English, which begins -- and third page in the B/C/S which
8 begins with the heading: Sector West.
9 And in that area, in the end of the first paragraph I will begin
10 to read their analysis of the UN which notes that:
11 "... the Croatian government has sought to encourage Serbs to
12 remain in the sector and has issued personal documents, including
13 citizenship papers and some passports to those who have applied for
15 Paragraph 15:
16 "Despite the evident efforts of the Croatian government to
17 achieve high standards of respect for the Serbs' human rights in
18 Sector West and to discourage them from moving into Bosnia-Herzegovina,
19 an atmosphere of fear prevails, and only a few hundred are likely to
20 choose to stay in the sector."
21 Now that ultimately became the reality, that Serbs in an
22 enterprise called Operation Safe Passage, left the area under the
23 auspices of the UN. Isn't that right?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer into evidence
1 65 ter 520.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection, Your Honour.
3 A. I recall that this is an UN report from about this time in
4 evidence already with a D number. I can double-check. I'm not sure if
5 it's this one, though. But there is no objection.
6 MR. KEHOE: I think, if I may, there is a Mazowiecki report in
7 that -- is about that time-frame, and this is a different report.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, his document shall be assigned
10 Exhibit D2020. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D2020 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Now let us go to post-Operation Storm where -- where
14 President Tudjman is talking to international leaders about the
15 likelihood of Serbs returning, and I want to show you a series of
16 documents before I ask you this, and I do think if we move through this
17 expeditiously, we can finish this area before we have to leave for the
19 And the first conversation I would like to talk to you about is
20 P449, which is a minutes of a meeting on the 18th of August, 1995, with
21 the President and Ambassador Holbrooke of the United States,
22 General Clark of the United States, as well as Ambassador Galbraith.
23 And if I might just have one moment to get the pagination on this
24 correctly -- correct, excuse me.
25 MR. KEHOE: The reason the pagination is off a bit,
1 Mr. President, is that there was a portion of this that was initially put
2 into evidence and then another portion of it was tagged on thereafter.
3 So the pagination at the bottom of the pages doesn't necessarily equate
4 to what it is in e-court.
5 It is page 33 in B/C/S.
6 Q. And let me read to you at the top of the page. And this is 17 in
8 Let me read you the comment by Ambassador Holbrooke, and I will
9 tell you at the top of this page in the B/C/S is -- this is
10 Ambassador Holbrooke speaking to the President.
11 And he says:
12 "If you could just bring those people back, if could you hold a
13 speech and say that the war is over, to return, most of them will not
14 return. But tell them to return, emphasise it. At least mention that
15 they should return.
16 President Tudjman:
17 "I would be very content if about 10 per cent of them returned."
18 Ambassador Holbrooke:
19 "All right, tell them to return. Give them compensation ..."
20 Now, the last document that I'd just like to refer to before I
21 ask you a few questions is Ambassador Galbraith's diary, which is P459,
22 and this is for the entry on September the 15th. And in English, it
23 should be in e-court 46 of 76.
24 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, P458.
25 It is the fifth tab in B/C/S. Tab number 5 in B/C/S. And page
1 46 in the English.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. KEHOE: Unfortunately, that's not the right page,
4 Mr. President, bit if I can just read it in English and we can just move
5 along, because I'm just going to read a sentence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. In his diary, Ambassador Galbraith recounts a conversation with
9 Mr. Sarinic. And in his diary, he said he notes that he told
10 Mr. Sarinic:
11 "I also noted that not many would want to return, at most 20
12 per cent."
13 Now, the conversation with Ambassador Holbrooke, a public
14 conversation with an ambassador of another country, he is --
15 President Tudjman is talking about 10 per cent coming back, and
16 Ambassador Galbraith is talking about 20 per cent coming back.
17 Now, in these conversations that the government was having with
18 Ambassador Galbraith and with other international leaders, did anyone,
19 any of these international leaders suggest to you, given the fact that
20 80 per cent were not going return, what the Republic of Croatia
21 supposed to do with all this vacant property?
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm just wondering if a foundation could be laid
23 as to this witness's contacts with international leaders.
24 MR. KEHOE: I think, Mr. President, you in fact asked questions
25 about international leaders having some influence in changing the Law on
1 the Temporary Takeover of Property from 30 to 90 days, et cetera, and I
2 certainly would ask this witness if he knows directly, in conversations
3 with international leaders or in conversations with Croatian leaders.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are talking about -- primarily about the
5 international community, but that -- let me just see ...
6 Until now, you have referred to the conversation with
7 Ambassador Galbraith. If there are any others you have on your mind,
8 please specify. If not, we could invite the witness to ask whether he is
9 aware of any discussions with other international leaders on this
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Can you answer the President's question in that regard?
13 A. I was aware of this information, that high representatives of the
14 United States were under the impression that not more than 20 per cent
15 were to return. I also personally met with many ambassadors at the time
16 who shared similar opinion. Their judgement was that not more than that
17 number were to return.
18 Q. With that number in mind, that equates to 80 per cent of the Serb
19 population not coming back. Now, in conversations with these
20 international leaders, did they ever explain to you what the Republic of
22 Serbs who were not going to come back and who was going to live in these
24 A. The situation was somewhat different, because they allowed us to
25 offer our solution, our proposal, and then they -- they supported it.
1 For many of them it was acceptable that we suggested that the property
2 would be best preserved if we gave it for temporary use, in a way in
3 which we explained already in this Chamber.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, the first conversation that we talked to you
5 about was the minutes held at the Presidential Palace where there -- and
6 this is in P462. We don't need to bring up right now. I'm sure you
7 recall that conversation. And it's a conversation with the President,
8 with you, with minister Susak, with Prime Minister Valentic that took
9 place on 11th of August.
10 But that conversation that takes place on 11th August is -- that
11 conversation concerning the temporary takeover law is being conducted
12 with the belief of the parties that the Serb population is not going to
13 come back. Isn't that right?
14 A. Absolutely, that's right. From the first moment, we had this
15 impression which was furthermore supported by the representatives of the
16 international community, such as you mentioned yourself.
17 Q. So this conversation not a conversation in the context of keeping
18 the Serb population out, but, rather, The Serb population is not going to
19 come back. What are we going to do with this property, all this vacant
20 property, especially in light of the security concerns with the ongoing
21 war against the combined Serb forces. Isn't that right?
22 A. That is absolutely right. Even the conversation that I had with
23 the President on the 22nd of August, starts with me saying, President, we
24 have to preserve the properties. And he say, Yes, of course, we have to
25 preserve all the properties in the Republic of Croatia
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. We have to break off now, pursuant to the
2 President's instructions.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
4 Mr. Radic, I give you the same instructions as I gave to you
5 yesterday, that is, that you should not speak with anyone about your
6 testimony whether already given yesterday and today or still to be given
7 tomorrow. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00, although
8 in Courtroom III
9 We adjourn, and we resume on -- one second.
10 The question was put to you whether you would keep the folders.
11 If you would like to keep them, if you would want to re-read what is in
12 there, that's fine. If you would rather say, Let's not lose it, I'll
13 give it back to the Tribunal, then we'll receive it.
14 MR. KEHOE: On that score, is it possible - again this is a large
15 transcript of P464 that Ms. Gustafson went through - if there's no
16 objections to any parties of giving a copy in Croatian.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, apparently. I'm looking at
18 Ms. Gustafson who is nodding no objection.
19 Then this can be -- in the appropriate way be given to the
21 We will resume tomorrow, Friday, the 26th of February, 9.00,
22 Courtroom III
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of
25 February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.