Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27767

 1                           Wednesday, 24 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, while the witness is being

12     brought, I just wish to inform Court I believe I miscalculated yesterday

13     when I gave you my estimate.  I should have said three to four sessions

14     when I said two to three session.  My apologies.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we will see how matters developed and the time

16     granted always depends on the efficiency with which the cross-examination

17     is conducted.

18             Still, there seems to be a chance, although less certain now,

19     that we would conclude the testimony of this witness in two days.  That

20     might now -- we might need Friday as well.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Sacic.

25             We will turn into private session.

Page 27768

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Page 27769











11 Pages 27769-27779 redacted. Private session.















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18                           [Open session]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very grateful to you,

20     Mr. President.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             Ms. Mahindaratne, you may proceed.

24             Mr. Sacic, will you now be cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne.

25     Ms. Mahindaratne is counsel for the Prosecution.

Page 27781

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sacic.

 5             Now yesterday you discussed the advance of the special police

 6     forces during the period 4th August to 8th August.  And it was your

 7     testimony that you were with the units that advanced towards Donji Lapac

 8     from Mazin through Gornji Lapac, and this is for the record, at

 9     transcript 27757.  Isn't it correct that Mr. Markac, too, accompanied the

10     force advancing towards Donji Lapac on 7th August?

11        A.   Ms. Prosecutor, yes, he was there with me.  But he was toward the

12     middle or the rear of the column.

13        Q.   And is it correct that you and General Markac entered Donji Lapac

14     about the same time, perhaps 15, or 10 to 20 minutes apart, but about the

15     same time?

16        A.   Yes, with a high degree of certainty I would say that what you

17     have stated is correct.

18        Q.   And this is on the 7th of August; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, as we said yesterday.

20        Q.   Now the Trial Chamber has received evidence that once Donji Lapac

21     was captured by the special police, a small logistics base was set up in

22     Donji Lapac, and I refer to testimony of witness Janic P553, page 127,

23     139 to 140.

24             Is that correct?

25        A.   Correct, Ms. Prosecutor.

Page 27782

 1        Q.   And the Trial Chamber also received evidence that a forward

 2     command post was set up in a house at the cross-roads between

 3     Gornji Lapac and Donji Lapac toward Kulen Vakuf; is that correct?

 4             For the record P553, page 166.

 5        A.   My apologies.  I really apologise.  Can you repeat your question.

 6     I didn't fully understand the first part of it.

 7        Q.   The Trial Chamber has received evidence that a forward command

 8     post, a temporary forward command post was set up between Gornji Lapac

 9     and Donji Lapac on a cross-road.

10        A.   I suppose you're discussing the 8th of August, after we entered

11     Lapac.  Is that right?

12        Q.   That's correct.  After you entered Lapac, that's correct.

13             Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15             At that point, I set up my forward command post precisely on --

16     at the location of Boricevac in the direction of Kulen Vakuf.  But

17     Mr. Markac was not there.

18        Q.   Now do you recall after entering Donji Lapac on 7th August, on

19     the 7th August itself, Mr. Markac had a meeting with member of the

20     UNPROFOR in Donji Lapac?  Do you recall that?

21        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

22        Q.   About what time was that on the 7th?  Approximately, roughly.

23        A.   I suppose it was around 14 -- or between 1430 and 1530.  Perhaps

24     even as late as 1600 hours.  But I'm not sure.

25        Q.   Now the Trial Chamber has also received evidence that on the 7th,

Page 27783

 1     after Donji Lapac was captured, there was a meeting conducted in

 2     Donji Lapac with the unit commanders, where you were present.  Is that

 3     correct?  Do you recall that meeting?

 4        A.   I presumed this must have happened right after entering

 5     Donji Lapac, so it could have been 1430, 1500 hours.  Certainly as a

 6     commander, as the Chief of Staff, the intention would to be immediately

 7     congratulate the subordinates on their great military success.  That's

 8     for sure.

 9        Q.   And was Mr. Markac present at that meeting?

10        A.   I do suppose that he shared in the joy, just as I did, and that

11     he was present.

12        Q.   Now -- now, is it correct that the special police forces remained

13     in that area, Donji Lapac, Gornji Lapac, Boricevac - pardon my

14     pronunciation - till 9th August, until the area was handed over to the

15     HV Home Guard units?

16        A.   Esteemed Madam Prosecutor, from personal experience, I can tell

17     that you very soon, some 30 or 40 minutes after our entry into

18     Donji Lapac, I personally gathered all the available forces who were

19     physically and mentally fit and upon receiving approval from

20     General Markac, I set out for the state border with them.  All the

21     available forces, in other words, followed me, and the rest of the forces

22     had to be deployed along strategic points along the length of the road,

23     to ensure unhindered traffic and possibility for -- for our vehicles

24     along Boricevac -- Donji Lapac, Boricevac, and Kulen Vakuf.  And I'm

25     convinced that in Donji Lapac, save for the logistics base which had

Page 27784

 1     several logistics officers and men in charge of maintaining the

 2     communications system and the security detail, there weren't more than 40

 3     or 50 men there.  But this is my approximation.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sacic, I appreciate it's been some time since 1995, and

 5     perhaps your recollection isn't clear.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If could I have a minute.

 7        Q.   Would you agree with me that part of the special police forces

 8     remained in Donji Lapac on the night of 7th August, not just a small

 9     handful of people but quite a significant number remained in Donji Lapac.

10     On the night of 7th August.

11        A.   Madam Prosecutor, from what I remember, all the important forces

12     went along with me for that important mission of securing the state

13     border.  The men who remained behind were not that numerous, and they had

14     to have been deployed around Donji Lapac.  That's what I would say was

15     the case since that would have been the logic employed by the commander,

16     and this is confirmed by the facts.

17        Q.   Let me just remind you, Mr. Sacic, what you said in 2005, and

18     that might refresh your memory.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And Madam Registrar, if could I have 65 ter, I

20     believe, 7556, please.

21        Q.   This is your 2005 video-recorded interview, Mr. Sacic.  And if

22     could you go to page 61.  Page 61.

23        A.   Very well.  I can see it.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Perhaps page 60, Madam Registrar.  I'm sorry,

25     we are on the correct -- correct page.

Page 27785

 1        Q.   Do you note what have you said there.  You are you asked the

 2     question, Did the special police of the MUP ever conduct any of -- I'm

 3     sorry.  You go on to say:

 4             "No, we weren't in charge of that, and than night, we ... I left

 5     with the main part of the troops towards Boricevac, maybe some 100 to 200

 6     people, no more than that stayed behind."

 7             And then you were asked:

 8             "And where were they?  Where did you leave them?  In Lapac or in

 9     the position where you had been?"

10             And if could you move to the next page.  Page 62.

11             "No, they were around Lapac, in Lapac, around that.  Around the

12     house of the police station, there was the medical team ..."

13             So, now do you recall about 100 to 200 members of the special

14     police remained in Lapac the night of 7th August?

15        A.   Fifty to a hundred, as is stated here.  But today I would say

16     even fewer.  Well, in theory, complete with the medical teams, there

17     could have been up to 100.

18        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that General Markac spent the night of

19     7th August in Donji Lapac?

20        A.   I don't know about that.  I'd -- I'm inclined to think that he

21     did he not, that he had left, since he had other duties to attend to.  I

22     think -- no, I don't think.  I'm sure that he went back to the Gracac

23     staff, since there were major activities taking place on that day.  But

24     these are only my assumptions.  I didn't see him.  I certainly did not

25     see him spend the night -- stay behind and spend the night in Lapac.

Page 27786

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, what we see on our screen now, on

 2     the 27th, the interview on the 27th, that is, the first day of the two

 3     days of interviews.  I see on line 12 that Mr. Sacic answered the

 4     question in which the name of Mr. Markac appears, although the

 5     interpretation was, to some extent, inaudible, and in order to better

 6     understand this portion of the statement, where, apparently, those who

 7     were transcribing could understand, could hear the answer in the original

 8     language, I'd like to seek whether we could have access to the content of

 9     that.  And I would invite a native speaker just to read slowly the first

10     part of the answer so that we know at least what we're talking about.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, might I just suggest that the

12     witness just read lines 12 through 15 himself.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Can you see on your screen, Mr. Sacic --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you please slowly read what was recorded at the

17     time as your answer, starting on line 12, continuing to line 15.  Could

18     you slowly read that.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "And I don't know anything else

20     because I really left quite soon.  You should further discuss it with

21     General Markac, with the police, when the ordinary police arrived,

22     whether it was that same evening, when the Croatian Army arrived in

23     Lapac, that's another matter that needs to be looked into.  I don't know

24     that."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, you may proceed.

Page 27787

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Now, when I questioned you about if Mr. Markac spent the night of

 3     7th August in Donji Lapac, you said that he probably did not.  Let me

 4     remind you, Mr. Sacic, what you have said in 2005 when you were

 5     interviewed.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Madam Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 7576,

 7     please.  And if you could take me to page 121.  121.

 8        Q.   You can you follow, Mr. Sacic, this is what you say:

 9             "And I was with the troops all the time, and even General Markac

10     was with me later on.  In the afternoon, when we arrived Gornji and

11     Donji Lapac and I spent the night in a village there, Boricevac, there,

12     towards border with Bosnia and Herzegovina, towards Kulen Vakuf ..."

13             And if you could take the page down:

14             "And General Markac stayed in Donji Lapac."  And you further go

15     on to speak about this.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If we could go to 65 ter 7556, please.

17        Q.   Let me show you other parts of your statement.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  7556.

19        Q.   This is the same interview, Mr. Sacic, but different tapes.

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.  Fine, what is it that I have to confirm?

21        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... let me also show you.

22             And then if you could move to page 33 of this section:

23             "And when you arrived in Donji Lapac, do you recall what time of

24     the day it was?

25             "Yes, of course.  It was afternoon.

Page 27788

 1             It was 4, 4.30, sometime between 4.00 and 4.30."

 2             And Madam Registrar, if you could go down.

 3             "Okay, and would it be fair to say based on what you previously

 4     said that General Markac wouldn't have gone into Donji Lapac until it was

 5     considered secure, safe?"

 6             "That's not the rule."

 7             And if could you move on to the next page:

 8             "He didn't really have a choice.  He couldn't go back anymore.

 9     He had to go where the majority of forces were.  He couldn't stay in

10     Gornji Lapac, so he came to Donji Lapac.  They were bombing there, and he

11     couldn't go to Gornji Lapac.  He wanted to come to Donji Lapac."

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   So in 2005, what you said is that Mr. Markac stayed back in

14     Donji Lapac.  But today you're saying that that wasn't the case.  So do

15     you want to reconcile your testimony with what you said back in 2005?

16        A.   I will, yes, Madam Prosecutor.  When I was giving my statement at

17     the time, what's not certain is whether I was really put specific

18     questions.  But I can tell you that what I've stated today is something

19     that I'm deeply convinced of.  General Markac had no reason whatsoever to

20     stay in Donji Lapac throughout that time, and he definitely -- I'm sure

21     he did not say there, and I'm sure that he went back the same evening as

22     I was advancing toward Kulen Vakuf.  He, for a number of other reasons

23     related to the Main Staff, had to leave Donji Lapac because there was no

24     reason for the Commander-in-Chief to stay there.  I was speaking about

25     all -- the overall forces in general who remained under my command until

Page 27789

 1     the 9th of August in that area.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Now, did you learn that, at some stage, after special

 3     police entered Donji Lapac that it was destroyed?  That houses and

 4     property were set on fire.

 5        A.   When -- while I was there, up until the 9th of August, and I say

 6     this with great certainty.  And I mentioned this yesterday, there was no

 7     need for me at all to enter Donji Lapac, so I didn't observe that because

 8     I had to be in my staff, the forward command post, I had to be there

 9     physically because we were under attack, and I had there everything that

10     I needed, logistics support and so on, because all of that was -- all

11     those requests would come to me, so that I really did not know anything

12     about the destruction.  That was something that was not the focus of my

13     interest.  My task there was crucial to repeal the attack and to prevent

14     the advance of -- of some troops of the Army of Republika Srpska.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Madam Registrar, can we move on this same

16     document to page number 57, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Sacic, and you were questioned about this issue in 2005.  And

18     let me read back what you said then.  Page 57.

19             This is what you said:

20             "Later, several days later, on 9th, I heard it was burned, that

21     something was burning there."

22              "On the 9th, yes."

23              "But the special police most certainly did not take part in

24     that, but I believe that whilst the special police were on the outskirts

25     of the town and certainly some of them were going into the town, when the

Page 27790

 1     town was damaged."

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And then if could you move to page 59.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, sorry to interrupt.  For the sake

 4     of completeness, I think we should read line 30, or the English

 5     translation of line 30 of that previous page.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please follow that suggestion.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             At page 30 it says:

 9             "Probably you, because of that exchange of fire, that artillery

10     exchange of fire."

11             That was at line 30.  And if could you move to page -- not 60,

12     page 59.  59.

13             You say Donji Lapac was -- you were asked the question:

14             "Donji Lapac was destroyed, though?"

15             And your answer is, next page, please:

16             "That's fact now.  And now it is well known."

17             "I heard that, I heard that now, later."

18             So, Mr. Sacic, this is on video record of what you said in 2005,

19     and your testimony is that on the 9th, you heard that Donji Lapac was

20     burning, and then you went on to say that it's a fact that it is

21     destroyed.

22             So can you explain to the Trial Chamber as to why you have since

23     then changed your mind about what you knew then.

24        A.   No, I haven't changed my mind.  I personally saw the burning, and

25     I said that yesterday before this Chamber.  I saw a building that was on

Page 27791

 1     fire.  It was the police station building.  I also saw that there were

 2     some vehicles on the side of the road because of the artillery attacks.

 3     And also that there were -- there was glass, broken glass.  But it wasn't

 4     destroyed, and it was -- the road was passable.

 5             However, I said there that that was the fact then, which is what

 6     I learned much later from newspaper articles and so on.  So that's what I

 7     meant when I said "it's a fact that it was destroyed."

 8             But, on the 9th, the 8th or, rather, the 9th, as you say, I say

 9     that I probably didn't have any direct knowledge, any personal knowledge,

10     because I don't even remember going to Donji Lapac then.  Simply, there

11     was no need for me to go there.  But after some time, whether this was

12     already in Gracac when I was at the headquarters or maybe a month, two,

13     or three later, I learned from reports probably that it had been

14     thoroughly destroyed.

15        Q.   Mr. Sacic, I didn't suggest that on the 9th you saw Donji Lapac

16     burning, but what you had said in 2004 -- five was that you heard -- on

17     the 9th, you heard that Donji Lapac was burning.  That -- that's correct,

18     isn't it?

19        A.   That could be correct.

20        Q.   I take it that when you say "that could be correct," that is

21     correct.  Is that right?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.  That someone could have said that to me, that

23     is probably correct.  That someone came up to me and said, Listen, there

24     is something burning in Gracac, that this happened on the 8th or 9th,

25     yes, that could be so.  That -- it's probably how it was.

Page 27792

 1        Q.   Mr. Sacic, I think you said in your answer that there is

 2     something burning in Gracac.  I believe you meant to say Donji Lapac.

 3        A.   Yes, Donji Lapac.  I apologise.  Donji Lapac.

 4        Q.   Now, having heard this, and you said later on you learnt that

 5     Donji Lapac was thoroughly destroyed, did you or did General Markac

 6     conduct any inquiries as to who burnt or destroyed Donji Lapac?

 7        A.   I certainly was not the one.  Whether the General did, you have

 8     to ask him.  But I know for a fact that I did not take any action in that

 9     respect.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sacic, if you have any knowledge, even if it

11     would be hearsay, we'd like to hear your answer.  You don't have to tell

12     Ms. Mahindaratne who she -- she should ask this question.  She asked the

13     question from you.  You didn't investigate, from what I understand.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But have you any knowledge, either direct or

16     indirect, in relation to any inquiries conducted by others than yourself?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please tell us what you know about it.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know, because I think I

20     heard this information in -- at the headquarters in Gracac or in Zagreb,

21     after a while, perhaps three or four weeks later, I learned from the

22     chief of logistics, Mr. Branislav Bole, who was, undoubtedly, in

23     Donji Lapac on that day, who said that, on that day, sometime in the

24     evening, this was late, which means that I wasn't there, but this is all

25     second-hand information, hearsay.  This is according to how Bole

Page 27793

 1     remembered that.  So members of the Croatian Army came from somewhere,

 2     and they were very noisy.  Allegedly, they were even surprised, these

 3     Croatian Army members, that our logistics unit was there.  So that would

 4     be all.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sacic, the question was about whether you are

 6     you aware of any inquiries or any -- I understood - Ms. Mahindaratne,

 7     please correct me when I'm wrong - whether in any way this was

 8     investigated, whether any inquiries were made as to who did this.

 9             Now your answer was what you heard a couple of weeks after

10     that --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.  That's right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Sacic, you said three or four weeks later Mr. Bole was

15     talking about what happened in Donji Lapac that night.

16             So is it correct that there was a discussion at the Gracac

17     lawyers about the burning in Donji Lapac?  Is that the result of Mr. Bole

18     talking about as to how this came about?

19        A.   It's possible.  And I say this was just a possibility, that this

20     was either in Gracac or in Zagreb.  But where exactly, I can't tell you,

21     and I can't even tell you when exactly this happened, whether, as I said

22     a few moments ago, whether this was immediately following the events or a

23     couple of weeks later, I'm not sure.

24        Q.   Mr. Sacic, my question is, what led to Mr. Bole giving that

25     explanation?  Was there some query made or a discussion about Donji Lapac

Page 27794

 1     burning on 7th night either by you or someone else, General Markac, the

 2     inner control branch?  Was there some discussion?  That's what I'm asking

 3     you.

 4        A.   Now I understand what you mean.

 5             Well, I assume that I must have asked Bole something about it, so

 6     I would have had some information about Gracac being in this condition.

 7     In other words, that it was burning, and I assume that it was a logical

 8     question, that it sounded logical -- that it was a logical question for

 9     chief, Bole, because he was the only one who was there, as far as I know.

10     He did not speak of this on his own initiative, spontaneously.

11        Q.   Again, Mr. Sacic, you mentioned the word "Gracac" there.

12     Information about Gracac.  I presume you meant to say Donji Lapac.

13        A.   Yes, of course, Donji Lapac was on fire.  I apologise.

14        Q.   So --

15        A.   I will do my best to be as focussed as I can, but I can't promise

16     that I won't misspeak again.  But please correct me.

17        Q.   Now you just said that, chief Bole was the only one who was

18     there, as far as I know.

19             Are you not aware that Mr. Janic, the chief of the anti-terrorist

20     department, was present in Donji Lapac the night of 7th August?

21        A.   As far as I can remember, he wasn't with me at the time.

22     However, as the other forces, as I mentioned today, were deployed along

23     the road, it is quite possible that he, as my deputy, actually commanded

24     those forces on the road between Gornji and Donji Lapac, although,

25     frankly speaking, I can't really remember that.

Page 27795

 1        Q.   Now, you said, Mr. Sacic, that to your knowledge there was no

 2     investigation into the burning in Donji Lapac.  Do you know if, in fact,

 3     at least a report was called from either Mr. Bole or Mr. Janic or any

 4     other person who was in Donji Lapac regarding the burning?

 5        A.   I think that during my preparations for this evidence, I ran into

 6     -- I found the report by Branislav Bole while reviewing the documents and

 7     archives where he said -- where he described the arrival of the Croatian

 8     Army forces in Lapac.  However, I certainly do not remember such a report

 9     from 1995 or 1996.  I did not notice it then.  Such a report does exist,

10     and it is in the special police archives.  It would have had to be there.

11        Q.   So, to your knowledge in 1995, you didn't see this report,

12     Mr. Bole's report?  You saw it only in preparation for this evidence.

13        A.   Well, I'm almost absolutely sure that that's how it was.  I'm

14     almost sure.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Madam Registrar, may I have P586, please.

16        Q.   Mr. Sacic, is this the report you saw in the archives when you

17     were preparing for this examination, where you said this was -- you

18     haven't seen this in 1995?

19        A.   Yes, this is it, certainly.  No doubt about it.

20        Q.   Now, this report is addressed to you.  And it is your testimony

21     that this report was not submitted to you in 1995?

22        A.   And that's quite understandable.  Some time had elapsed.

23        Q.   Mr. Sacic --

24        A.   And I'm glad that you have it here --

25        Q.   Mr. Sacic, my question is, it was not submitted to you.  I mean

Page 27796

 1     you don't have to give me explanations as to why that could be.  Just,

 2     yes or no.

 3        A.   If it says that it was filed in Zagreb on the 2nd of November

 4     [as interpreted], 1995, to the chief Zeljko Sacic, that must have been

 5     shown to me, it must have been on my desk.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  On the 2nd of

 7     October.

 8        A.   And I thank you for refreshing my memory.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

10        Q.   Mr Sacic, my question is today, don't speculate whether it was on

11     your table or what the document says.  Your -- you do not have a

12     recollection of receiving this document in 1995.  Isn't that correct?

13        A.   No, that's not correct.  Now you've just refreshed my memory, and

14     now I believe that I did receive it.  In fact, I'm quite certain because

15     Bole would not have written it subsequently.

16        Q.   Mr. Sacic, I asked you several times about whether you had

17     received a report from Mr. Bole.  You vehemently denied and you, in fact,

18     testified here just now that you saw this document in the archives when

19     you were preparing for this examination which you said that did you not

20     see in 1995.  Now suddenly your memory seems to have --

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   -- been jogged to the point you suddenly remember this.

23        A.   That's right, and that is very logical.

24             You recall that I said that she had reported this to me orally,

25     so I did have some recollection, and I even cited from the contents.  But

Page 27797

 1     it's illogical.  And there is really nothing at issue here.  There is no

 2     reason why I would try to conceal anything, and I appreciate your jogging

 3     my memory, because, had I wanted to actually conceal this, then in I

 4     wouldn't even have mentioned that Bole told me something about it orally.

 5        Q.   Now, do you recall receiving a report from Mr. Janic about what

 6     happened in --

 7        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember.  Certainly not.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Madam Registrar, may I have D556, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When you said "certainly not," did you intend to say

10     that you certainly did not see it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't remember, that I can't

12     recall.  Certainly can't recall, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

15        Q.   Mr. Sacic, this report you can see, by Mr. Janic is addressed to

16     you, but you have -- you said you haven't received it.  And you didn't

17     know about --

18        A.   No, no, I have to intervene here.  I said that I could not

19     remember it, and that's a major distinction.  As I can see, I did receive

20     it, but I could not actually remember it today.

21        Q.   Mr. Sacic, there you can see on the top right-hand corner of that

22     document there is an handwritten -- there's handwritten text.  And it

23     says:  "Call General Markac and informed him of ..."

24             And perhaps it is more legible in the Croatian, the original

25     document.  Do you know whose handwriting is?

Page 27798

 1        A.   Certainly.  That is unfortunately my handwriting, and I really

 2     have a bad handwriting.

 3        Q.   So -- now, I asked you about discussions about what happened in

 4     Donji Lapac on 7th, whether Mr. Markac and -- whether you discussed,

 5     Mr. Markac discussed, whether someone else discussed, and you could not

 6     recall.

 7             Now can you explain to the Trial Chamber why that entry means.

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   What exactly did you inform Mr. Markac?

10        A.   Well, on what is in this document, obviously, that's what I

11     informed him because it says there, "Call General Markac and inform him

12     on the incident, the burning."

13             And certainly it is quite certain that I did not keep this in my

14     desk drawer.  Although I don't recall exactly the very act and how I

15     informed him, how I did that.  But it says here, in my handwriting, that

16     I did do it.

17        Q.   So the reason for you to inform Mr. Markac about the content of

18     this report is obviously because Mr. Markac and you must have had a

19     discussion about the burnings in Donji Lapac on 7th August night; isn't

20     that correct?

21        A.   On the 7th of August, on the 7th of August, you mean?

22        Q.   Mr. Sacic, my question is: the reason you informed Mr. Markac the

23     contents of this document is because there must have been a discussion

24     between you and Mr. Markac about what happened in Donji Lapac on the 7th

25     night, not that your discussion took place on the 7th August, but what

Page 27799

 1     happened, the incident of burning that took place on 7th August.

 2        A.   Yes.  Well, I suppose that that's exactly the reason, because

 3     obviously this concerned me.  Someone had advised me of this.  Someone

 4     had obviously told me to seek reports on why and how it was captured, and

 5     how the Croatian Army joined up the special -- with the joint --

 6     special police, and whether, on that occasion, there were -- there was

 7     some torching or some problems, and obviously that was the reason why

 8     such -- these reports were submitted to me.  And it is certain that that

 9     triggered my, as it says there, "call General Markac," calling him to

10     inform him of it.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now, to your knowledge, was there ever an investigation by

12     any element of the Ministry of Interior into -- as to -- to -- establish

13     as to who burnt the property in Donji Lapac?

14        A.   If we could call this report from Bole and from Janic, those

15     would be arguments confirming that there was an on-site investigation

16     initiated, but whether --

17        Q.   Mr. Sacic, please, I'm not asking you to analyse these documents.

18     My question is: to your knowledge, was there an investigation conducted

19     by any element of the Ministry of Interior, either fundamental police,

20     crime police, or the special police as to what happened in Donji Lapac?

21     That's my question.

22        A.   Thank you, Madam Prosecutor.  As far as I know, it wasn't, but my

23     knowledge has to do with what I can recall.

24        Q.   Mr. Sacic, I am working against the clock, so I would be grateful

25     if you confine your responses to my question.

Page 27800

 1             Now --

 2        A.   I will do my best.

 3        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has received evidence, Mr. Sacic, that

 4     90 per cent of the houses along the road between Gracac and Donji Lapac

 5     had been burnt down and destroyed, and, in fact, members of the special

 6     police were present in the area while dwellings were still ablaze.  I'm

 7     referring to evidence at -- at P2359, paragraph 42, transcript page

 8     number 16761, 764, 765, and 770.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Is that between Gracac and Donji Lapac?  Is that

11     the question?

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct.  If Mr. Kuzmanovic is going to

13     say anything, I -- maybe it might be proper for the witness not to be

14     present.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  I think that Mr. Kuzmanovic was

16     verifying whether he well understood your question.

17             Is that ...

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether there's any possible confusion.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Correct, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question has been answered.

22             Could you please repeat the question so that the witness can

23     answer the question.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25        Q.   Mr. Sacic, did you hear my question?  Shall I ask again?

Page 27801

 1             The Trial Chamber has received evidence that 90 per cent of the

 2     houses along the road between Gracac and Donji Lapac had been burnt down

 3     or destroyed and members of the special police were seen present in the

 4     area, while the -- the houses, the property, were still ablaze.

 5             Now, your testimony is that you, in fact, advanced with the

 6     units.  And my question is: did you -- what did you do about this?  Did

 7     you see special police members standing in front of burning houses?

 8        A.   No, absolutely not.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             I think the methodology is that the witness should not put

12     someone else's testimony before him without asking him those questions

13     first.  I think that is what we have been doing in the past, and I know

14     there have been citations to the record that counsel has made.  I don't

15     necessarily disagree with providing citations to the record, but I think

16     the procedure is to ask the witness first what his recollection was and

17     then put the information that the counsel wants to put to the witness on

18     what other people said.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it could be debatable whether the earlier

20     testimony of the witness about damage, whether that would already cover

21     this.  That is not entirely clear.  But, Ms. Mahindaratne, you're

22     encouraged as is the practice before this Chamber to first ask the

23     witness without referring to evidence the Chamber has received.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before the break I

Page 27802

 1     just have one more question.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sacic, 90 per cent is a significant amount of property that

 3     one would not miss out if it is destroyed.  Can you explain to the

 4     Trial Chamber as how you, you know, having advanced with your units,

 5     could miss out such a large amount of destruction?

 6        A.   Very simply, it means that they did not happen at the time I was

 7     there or when I was going back.  That could be the only reason, otherwise

 8     I would have observed them.

 9        Q.   Did you see or did hear about such a destruction later on, having

10     gone back to Gracac after your work in the area?

11        A.   Yes, I did, but not in Gracac.  In 1996, 1997, and 1998, this was

12     widely written about in Croatia.  But at the time I was there, thank God,

13     this was not to be seen where I was moving about.  But if 90 per cent of

14     the houses were aflame whilst I was present there, well, I would have

15     gone up in flames together with them, I suppose.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I believe that is a suitable

17     time for the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we will resume at quarter

19     past 4.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, excuse me.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Before we continue, I need to make -- put

25     something on the record with regard to the citations provided by counsel

Page 27803

 1     in one of the previous questions.  If that's okay with you, Your Honour.

 2             I have an objection about the methodology under which this

 3     questioning began, and I have the relevant examples to show why this

 4     questioning is misleading.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Kuzmanovic, if it is about summarising

 6     what the Chamber received as evidence, where Ms. Mahindaratne made

 7     reference to transcript pages and to certain documents, documentary

 8     evidence, then we'd like to hear from you at a later stage, not

 9     necessarily now where she went wrong.  I hope that you first did inform

10     her that you were dissatisfied with the examples you want to give to the

11     Chamber.

12             Now if there is any issue about that, you know that we usually

13     take the following, a party who puts to a witness what was received as

14     evidence by this Chamber, if there is any doubt as to the accuracy of the

15     representation, then, immediately intervene and ask the party to put to

16     the witness exactly what the evidence was.  If it is -- I did understand

17     that at least at one of the occasions where Ms. Mahindaratne gave rather

18     detailed sources, it was a P exhibit number, it was a witness statement,

19     she referred to the paragraph, she further referred to certain transcript

20     pages.  Then if there is any reason not to accept that as a sufficient --

21     sufficiently accurate reference, then we go to the source, and then we

22     look at that.  If that is the issue --

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  This is the issue, Your Honour, and it took me

24     a while, obviously, to look, and what's I was doing over the break,

25     looking at the transcript references and at the P exhibit reference,

Page 27804

 1     referring to the testimony of Witness 82.  And it's not that -- the

 2     question which is the Trial Chamber has received that 90 per cent of the

 3     houses --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I thought that you would -- I also tried to

 5     immediately find the sources, and my problem is that I have to do other

 6     things at the same time apart from doing my background research.

 7             Ms. Mahindaratne could, we -- Mr. Kuzmanovic, as matters stand

 8     now, I take it that we'll have a look that those sources.

 9     Ms. Mahindaratne is now put on notice that there was a problem.  We will

10     resolve that in the course of the further examination of the witness.

11             And, Ms. Mahindaratne, please carefully consider whether the way

12     in which you presented that evidence, and it was P25 --

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  2359.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  2359 -- oh, now our transcriber has simultaneously

15     three numbers, and she wonders whether we were all -- it was 23.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  59.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll check that.

18             And Ms. Mahindaratne, you are put on notice that whenever you

19     summarise in a question the evidence, that you should do it with

20     100 percent accuracy.  If not, first of all, there will be objections,

21     and, of course, what the Chamber expects the parties to do is, on the one

22     hand, that are you really accurate, and, on the other hand, that if it is

23     a fair summary that there will be no objections, so not unnecessarily go

24     back to the source.  But it is up to you.  You'll find the objections

25     which you have asked for.  You are advised not to ask for any objections.

Page 27805

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Advice taken, Mr. President.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, if could you also -- because then I

 4     would find time.  The paragraph was 40 ...

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  42, Mr. President.  And can I repeat the

 6     PD [sic] transcript reference numbers if Your Honour --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I can look them up, and -- in e-court.  So

 8     perhaps we first proceed.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Sacic, one -- just one question on that previous subject we

11     were on.  Now we saw from Mr. Bole's and Mr. Janic's report that there

12     was a suggestion that the destruction in Donji Lapac -- the persons

13     responsible for the destruction there Donji Lapac could be members of the

14     HV.

15             Now, did you or Mr. Markac report that to the military police or

16     any military authority?

17        A.   I did not, most certainly.  That's the short answer.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Sacic, is it correct that members of the special police are

20     not authorised to take or drive civilian vehicles?  In their official

21     capacity, in the course of -- you know, after Operation Storm, in the

22     liberated territory, the abandoned civilian vehicles, were they

23     authorised to take them or drive them, use for their purposes?

24        A.   They would have to provide substantial reasons for it.  For

25     instance, that it was for the purposes of the service, that they had to

Page 27806

 1     reach a location urgently and didn't have their own means of

 2     transportation, and they could use the vehicle only for as long as it was

 3     urgently needed.  And this is provided for in the Law on Internal Affairs

 4     which relates to the use of citizens's vehicles, but these are

 5     exceptions.

 6        Q.   Was there any -- any situation or any arrangement within the

 7     special police where members of the special police were asked to drive

 8     abandoned vehicles from one location to the other?  Not for urgent

 9     purposes but just drive them to designated locations.

10        A.   This was possible.  However, this went through our logistics

11     department, Mr. Branislav Bole, or, if some other special police unit was

12     involved of a certain police administration, then, notification had to be

13     made immediately of a vehicle which was in disrepair or left abandoned by

14     the roadside, the individuals involved could make the vehicle

15     operational, make sure that it is up and running, but the relevant police

16     administration had to be informed of it forthwith.

17        Q.   Now you were shown yesterday some photographs by the Chambers one

18     picture was of a person hot-wiring a car.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Madam Registrar, if I could have P234,

20     please.

21        Q.   And, in fact, you were shown -- do you recall that you were shown

22     those photographs even in 2005 by the investigators of the Office of the

23     Prosecutor.  Do you recall seeing this -- one picture is on the screen

24     now.  And if we could --

25        A.   Yes.  I remember.

Page 27807

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Madam Registrar, if we could move to the

 2     next page.

 3        Q.   Do you recall you were shown this picture?  And if you could

 4     also --

 5        A.   Yes, of course, I do remember.

 6        Q.   And if you could move to the next picture also, please.

 7             Do you recall when you were shown these pictures that you

 8     informed the -- the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor that

 9     members of the special police were not authorised to use civilian

10     vehicles, unless in an emergency to transport wounded civilians?

11        A.   Well, you can see that what I've been saying today is along those

12     lines.  In other words, yes, I do remember that.

13             But if I may add the following.  The lawyer who was with me at

14     the time reacted to this - I remember this well - and asked the

15     investigators when these photographs were made.  The investigator told us

16     that it was either on the 7th or the 8th of August, I'm not sure.

17             In any event, the upshot is that I was not physically in Gracac

18     at the time.  I can -- I'm telling you this just as an aside, to let you

19     know what happened during the interview.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Sacic, this Trial Chamber has received evidence that

21     members of the special police were seen looting in the centre of Gracac

22     on 8th August, and I'm referring to P321, paragraph 29, paragraph 30, and

23     31 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 30 and 31.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'm not asking the questions here,

Page 27808

 1     but the question should be, Did you see anyone living in Gracac?  And

 2     depending on what the answer is, then confront him with the evidence,

 3     supposedly.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, isn't it true that I referred to

 5     the practice in this courtroom -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I apologise, Mr. President, that was -- I will

 7     rephrase, and I'll get back.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  And as I said before, objections are

 9     best avoided by not asking for them.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  My fault.  My apologies.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

13        Q.   Mr. Sacic, are aware of members of the special police looting in

14     Gracac?

15        A.   Never.  Never.

16        Q.   This Trial Chamber has heard evidence that, on the 8th of August,

17     members of the special police were seen looting in the centre of Gracac

18     where, in fact, the special police headquarters is located.  So what do

19     you have to say about that?  How is that that type of conduct could occur

20     in the very location where your headquarters are located?

21        A.   I simply I can't believe that this would be true.  That's my

22     response.

23             They had a very clear instruction that they should not engage

24     there looting and that they should conduct themselves in accordance with

25     the rules of engagement and with laws of war and laws applicable in

Page 27809

 1     peacetime.  If anybody did do this, then he did it without any approval.

 2     These were looters who should have been sanctioned.

 3        Q.   And to your knowledge was any member of the special police

 4     sanctioned, punished for looting in Gracac or anywhere else during

 5     Operation Storm -- or, actually, after Operation Storm was completed,

 6     after the territory was liberated?

 7        A.   I can't remember.  Truly, I can't recall there having been

 8     proceedings against a member of the special police and who had been found

 9     to have looted through a disciplinary proceedings.  Perhaps the Zadar

10     police station may have had such proceedings, but I don't remember

11     anything else.  It could have been something connected with the Zadar

12     special police unit, but I can't really be sure whether this happened at

13     that time and at that place, that a commander punished his member of the

14     special police unit for having done something, this is not something that

15     I can remember.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Sacic, do you recall seeing property in Gracac, in

17     Gracac or outside Gracac, burning after the special police headquarters

18     was set up on the 5th?

19        A.   In the outskirts, well, when I arrived there on the night of the

20     5th, a house could be seen on fire at night-fall somewhere out in the

21     outskirts.  You couldn't see the house.  You could see the fire.

22             Our commanders received clear instructions.  General Markac told

23     me expressly, and I told all the commanders expressly in Gracac when --

24     as soon as we gathered there, that no cases of looting, torching, or

25     anything else irregular would be tolerated, that regular security needs

Page 27810

 1     to be enforced as soon as possible.  So now the special units arrived on

 2     either the 5th late during the day or early on the 6th.  I know that the

 3     military police arrived on the 6th, and the commander of the military

 4     police came to report to me as a chief of the sector.  I told him the

 5     same, that the military police should make sure that no sort of arson or

 6     anything like that occur.

 7        Q.   Mr. Sacic, the Trial Chamber has received evidence, in fact, that

 8     on the 8th of August, there were -- there was property burning in Gracac

 9     as well as on the outskirts of Gracac.  Now what do you have to say about

10     that.  Because not withstanding you are saying, it seemed to have

11     continued even on the 8th of August?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm sorry to intervene, Your Honour, we now have

14     now -- the Trial Chamber has received evidence and would like to know

15     specifically -- [Overlapping speakers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could --

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  P321, paragraph 29.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you put that to the witness.  You will

19     understand that I have no clear recollection what P231 [sic],

20     paragraph 29 says.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  P321, Mr. President, that is

22     Mr. Vanderostyne's statement.  I will be very precise.

23        Q.   Mr. --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you put to him what he says in

25     paragraph 29, if you put that to the witness, then ...

Page 27811

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

 2             P321.  It's should be P321.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it is ... yes.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Your Honour wishes me to read exactly that, or

 6     can I make just make the suggestion.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there are two ways of doing it: either to read

 8     the relevant passage to the witness, or to read it for yourself and make

 9     sure there is no inaccuracy in the summary of that evidence.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

11        Q.   Mr. Sacic, a witness has testified to this effect before the

12     Trial Chamber:

13             "Upon entering Gracac I saw several houses that were just set on

14     fire.  There was smoke all over the outskirts."

15             Now, this is on 8th August.  Can you please explain to the

16     Trial Chamber as to how three days after the completion of the offence

17     property could be burning in Gracac and on the outskirts of Gracac

18     notwithstanding that the special police headquarters was located in

19     Gracac?

20        A.   Yes, Madam Prosecutor.  This is surprising, indeed, that houses

21     were on fire.  But I cannot answer your question why this happened

22     because I wasn't there.  And nobody informed me at a later stage that

23     these houses had been on fire there.  If there was no military activity

24     where houses were used as shelter which would lead to them being on fire,

25     then they should not have been aflame.  Or unless there had been

Page 27812

 1     artillery fire or unless an installation was there.  But what -- all

 2     these stories are perhaps superfluous now.

 3        Q.   To your knowledge, were any investigations conducted by the

 4     fundamental police, or the crime police, or the special police about

 5     destruction and burning of property in Gracac?

 6        A.   Yes.  I am aware of it but not from personal experience.  I

 7     wasn't present, but I heard most definitely that some investigating

 8     bodies, either the ordinary uniformed police or the military police,

 9     arrested an arsonist in Gracac who had been driving in a vehicle and

10     caused a house to be on fire.  When did this happen?  On the 8th, I'm not

11     sure.  Maybe it did; maybe not.  When he was arrested, I don't know.  But

12     this is a story that stayed with me, and it should be recorded somewhere.

13     There should be a record of it somewhere of this individual on a

14     motorbike, in fact, so --

15        Q.   And from what you heard was that individual member of the special

16     police or civilian police or the military or a civilian?

17        A.   Well, I couldn't really tell with certainty whether he was a

18     special police, a soldier, or a civilian.  But I know for certain that he

19     was on a motorbike because that was as much a bizarre detail, so it

20     stayed with me.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic -- yes, Mr. Mikulicic.  I'm still

22     thinking in -- in what I heard from the Markac Defence -- [Overlapping

23     speakers]

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just for sake of fairness,

25     could the witness be presented with paragraph 33 of the same statement

Page 27813

 1     which is also referring to the centre of Gracac.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are you invited, Ms. Mahindaratne, to put that

 3     to the witness, and if Ms. Mahindaratne would not do so, then I take that

 4     you will do it in cross-examination.

 5             Now, therefore, you know what will happen, Ms. Mahindaratne, if

 6     you don't do it, so therefore please consider to follow the suggestion.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will do it, Mr. President, at the risk of

 8     losing time.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  Page 10 in English, third sentence.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Okay.

11        Q.   Mr. Sacic, of course, you said you were not there.  But I -- at

12     the invitation of the Defence I'm going to read another part of what the

13     witness said.

14             You want me to read paragraph 33, Mr. Mikulicic, is that what you

15     said?

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, yes.  I'm referring to the third sentence of

17     the paragraph, 33.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  "Between Gospic and Gracac 50 kilometres

19     everything was destroyed.  There was looting in several places.  Burning

20     was not going on in the centre of Gracac at that time.  There were no

21     civilians.  In Gracac I saw men in khaki uniforms who said that they were

22     with the MUP.  Later on, at a press conference in Zagreb, Ivan Tolj had

23     said this is normalisation, within quotes, 'I could not understand

24     that.'"

25             I just read that to you, Mr. Sacic, at the invitation of the

Page 27814

 1     Defence.  I don't have a question -- [Overlapping speakers]

 2        A.   Yes, and that's what I observed.

 3             Would you tell me what it is that you expect of me.

 4        Q.   I don't have a question in relation to that.  I only read it.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I am moving into the area which

 6     has to be examined under closed session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One clarification as far as the last answer is

 8     concerned.

 9             You said that's what you observed after Ms. Mahindaratne had read

10     to you that between Gospic and Gracac, 50 kilometres, everything was

11     destroyed, there was looting in several places, burning -- one second,

12     please.

13             Burning was not going on in the centre of Gracac at that time.

14             So by confirming that this is what you observed, there are two

15     elements.  First, is the description of the destruction between Gospic

16     and Gracac, 50 kilometres, everything destroyed, looting in several

17     places.  That is one part of what she read to you.  And the other part

18     was that burning was not going on in the centre of Gracac at that time.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, absolutely not.  350 kilometres

20     between Gospic and Gracac, even with my knowledge of geography, that is a

21     bit extreme.  Just that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be a problem of translation.

23             Between Gospic and Gracac, 50 kilometres.  So for that part of

24     the country, everything destroyed, looting, several places.  But no

25     burning going on in Gracac.

Page 27815

 1             Now, what did you observe?  Did you observe the destruction and

 2     the looting as well as no burning in the centre of Gracac; or was it one

 3     of these elements that were read to you, one or more?

 4             Did you observe large destruction between Gospic and Gracac,

 5     50 kilometres?  Did you observe that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see looting in several places?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see it, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just trying to clarify your answer where you

10     said, That's what I observed.

11             Then I may I take it --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, 350 ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, it is about 50 kilometres, not 350.

14     But did you want to confirm that you did not see -- that you did not

15     observe burning in the centre of Gracac at that time?  Is that what you

16     confirmed?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, what I'm confirming is that

18     first I saw on the screen before me that it said 350 kilometres, nothing

19     else.  And now I don't see any of that anymore.  But the Madam Prosecutor

20     did say 350 kilometres, and then she corrected herself and said 50.  Am I

21     right?  Did I hear you well just a moment ago?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We are talking about 50 kilometres.

23             Please proceed with your answer.  What did you now confirm from

24     what was read to you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I did not see any destruction

Page 27816

 1     or looting.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  And burning?  No burning in Gracac?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, no, for sure.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So, as a matter of fact, you confirm not what was

 5     read to you, apart from the last portion.  That is, that did you not

 6     observe burning in the centre of Gracac.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I saw, as I mentioned a couple

 8     of minutes ago a house burning.  But I don't even know what day this

 9     refers to.

10             This is a completely new statement that completely confuses me.

11     I apologise, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think matters are sufficiently clear in this

13     context.

14             We move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27817











11 Pages 27817-27858 redacted. Private session.















Page 27859

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             We will adjourn and resume tomorrow, the 25th of March, quarter

19     past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom I, but for the public already to

20     know that it is extremely likely that we will move into private session

21     almost immediately after we have started.

22             We stand adjourned.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

25                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.