1 Tuesday, 30 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 1.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. May we have the appearances, please,
10 starting with the Prosecution.
11 MR. STRINGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.
12 Douglas Stringer appearing with my colleague Alexis Demirdjian; intern,
13 Antonio Garza; and Case Manager, Thomas Laugel.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. For the Defence, please.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. For the Defence of
16 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. If there is nothing else. Yes,
18 Mr. Demirdjian.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon to you, too.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That is good afternoon indeed. It is good to
22 see some familiar faces in the courtroom.
23 Before we bring in the next witness, Mr. Savic, I'd just like to
24 raise a preliminary matter. When the Trial Chamber ruled upon the
25 Rule 92 ter motion in relation to Mr. Savic, if you will remember, there
1 were a number of associated exhibits, two of which at the time were not
2 yet on the Rule 65 ter list of exhibits. Those two exhibits were added
3 in our -- well, we proposed them in our second motion, and you ruled on
4 the 19th of October in your decision that these documents were admitted
5 on the Rule 65 ter list. Just for the record, these are 65 ter 5866, and
7 So just for the sake of completeness, I just wanted to put that
8 on the record, that when we will be tendering these associated exhibits,
9 these two will be tendered, and they are now according to your ruling on
10 the Rule 65 ter list.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And that is all.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Could the witness be escorted in,
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Thank you --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the
19 Tribunal. First of all, do you hear me in a language you understand?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please tell us your name, your date of birth, and
22 your ethnicity, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Borivoje Savic,
24 2nd of February, 1949. I'm a Serb.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to read the solemn
1 declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I
2 need to point out that the solemn declaration that you are about to make
3 does expose you to the penalties of perjury should you give misleading or
4 untruthful evidence to this Tribunal. Would you now read the solemn
5 declaration, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 THE WITNESS: BORIVOJE SAVIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may sit down.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, your witness.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Savic.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. Mr. Savic, it is correct to say that you have given statements to
18 the Office of the Prosecutor in 2002 and 2003?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. You testified in the case against Stanisic and Simatovic in the
21 year 2009?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During the course of this summer, in July and August, you met
24 with members of the Office of the Prosecutor?
25 A. That is correct, yes.
1 Q. And as a result of these meetings, a new statement was prepared
2 for the purposes of this trial.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At this time could I ask for 65 ter 05868 to be
5 displayed on the screen. That is tab 71, Your Honours.
6 Q. Mr. Savic, do you recognise the cover page of this document?
7 A. I do, yes.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And can we scroll to the bottom of this
9 statement in the B/C/S version, all the way down. Very well.
10 Q. And at the bottom left corner, is that your signature?
11 A. It is, yes.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And could we go to page 2, please, in the B/C/S
14 Q. Now, on this second page and every other following page, I
15 believe that your signature appears also at the bottom; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And can we go to the last page, please.
19 Q. At the top of the last page, Mr. Savic, do we also see your
20 signature under the Witness Acknowledgement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, before signing this statement, were you given an opportunity
23 to read this statement?
24 A. I was, yes.
25 Q. And before signing this statement, were you given an opportunity
1 to make amendments to the statement?
2 A. Yes, we did make some changes. Minor ones, names and just some
4 Q. Very well. And when you arrived in The Hague yesterday, were you
5 given a copy of this statement to read once more?
6 A. I did get it, yes, and I did read it again.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, with regards to the answers recorded
8 in your statement, would you give the same answers in the courtroom
9 should you be asked the same questions?
10 A. I would, yes.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, at this time may I ask to tender
12 65 ter 05868, which is the statement, the 92 ter statement of Mr. Savic,
13 as well as the associated exhibits.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: It should be assigned Exhibit P50. Thank you.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And I assume that the associated exhibits will
17 receive their numbers in due course.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: The memo will be circulated later on.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Savic, in addition to your statement, I have some additional
22 questions in relation to topics that are in your statement. Now, as I
23 explained to you before, you can assume that the parties and the Judges
24 have read your statement. Therefore, when I ask you additional
25 questions, you don't need to give us the entire context, but you can
1 restrict yourself to the specific question.
2 Now, in your --
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Witness -- Mr. Savic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to hear it a
7 little better. Can I have it a little bit louder, the sound. [In
8 English] Okay. Okay. [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Savic, in the initial part of your statement you talk
11 about the creation of the SDS and your relationship with members of the
12 party. I would like to show you a document which is 65 ter 2887 at
13 tab 52. Can you see the document on the screen, on the left side of the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you -- do you recognise this document?
17 A. I do. It's a list of the boards, board members, and it's
18 something that I drafted for my own records. These were the boards that
19 we were establishing at the local level.
20 Q. Now, when you say the local level, which region specifically
21 would that be?
22 A. The local board would be a local commune or a village around
23 Vukovar. For example, we have Vera. This is a village in the area of
24 Vukovar, and we see the president, secretary, treasurer. Then we have
25 Sotin, which is the next locality. These are all locations around
1 Vukovar or it could be a local commune if we're talking about the town.
2 Q. Okay. Now, you told us that these were established at the local
3 level. When was the document itself prepared?
4 A. This is from 1990-1991, as the boards were being established in
5 order to have some sort of record and to know where the board members
6 were. I drafted this shortly after the boards were established in order
7 to have a record of the membership and also for purposes of
9 Q. Okay. Now, on page 1 at the right side of the B/C/S and English
10 versions, we see, for example, the local commune of Negoslavci.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In English we need to droll down a little bit,
12 please. Thank you very much.
13 Q. Now, we see the name of the president here. Are you familiar
14 with this person?
15 A. Boro Bogunovic was the president. The first president,
16 incidentally, was Nebojsa Uvalic. However, after an intervention of some
17 kind, Boro Bogunovic was appointed in his stead, who actually in my
18 opinion was already a police insider. Then they said that they intended
19 for Boro to be put there because he was better there, and then we just
20 said, Well, you can appoint whoever you like. Do whatever you want.
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the next page in the English
23 version -- in the B/C/S version, page 2. And in the English version,
24 that is page 3.
25 Q. Now, in the B/C/S version on -- I believe it is on the top
1 right-hand corner, we see the membership of the Vukovar local commune?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is that your name there?
4 A. Yes. The seventh in line is me.
5 Q. And below that we see the village of Pacetin, and this is
6 where -- this is Goran Hadzic's village. Could you tell us, if we scroll
7 down a little bit in the B/C/S version, please. And in the English
8 version we need to move to the right a little bit. Very well.
9 First of all, are you familiar with the second name,
10 Miomir Crnogorac?
11 A. I am, yes. Miomir Crnogorac was from Pacetin. He lived there,
12 and he was a member of the Pacetin board.
13 Q. And did Mr. Crnogorac later on occupy any functions in the SBWS
15 A. He was from Western Srem. I think that he was a minister of
16 energy or commerce, more or less that. I don't know if it was commerce
17 or energy. I don't know which ministry, but he was in the board -- in
18 the government.
19 Q. And still under Pacetin, we see two persons bearing the last name
20 Hadzic. Are these related to Mr. Goran Hadzic?
21 A. There are a number of Hadzic families in Pacetin. Goranka Hadzic
22 is Goran's sister. Slobodan Hadzic, I think they just have the same last
23 name, but they're not related. So it's only Goranka, and she was Goran's
25 Q. Very well. And just to clarify matters here, Goran Hadzic
1 himself does not appear on this list?
2 A. Goran Hadzic was the president of the Municipal Board, so there
3 was no need for him to be a member of the board in Pacetin. It's a
4 different case with me. In Vukovar, people simply did not dare join in,
5 get involved in the party work, so in my local commune, in order to fill
6 in the required numbers, I was a member of the board. There's only that
7 difference, excuse me. In the villages the situation was quite
8 different. People were more free, and it was more simple to establish
9 the boards.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask for this document to be
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2887 shall be
14 assigned Exhibit P51. Thank you.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, in relation to Goran Hadzic himself, in your statement at
17 paragraph 22, you explain that you knew him through his father and that
18 your wife was a teacher in the village of Pacetin. Could you tell the
19 Trial Chamber how long have you known Goran Hadzic?
20 A. Since his high school days. I think that in that period he was a
21 pupil in the Vinkovci gymnasium. So maybe he was 17 or 18 years old. So
22 that's since when I've known him.
23 Q. And how would you describe the relationship between your
25 A. It was good. We respected one another. We got on well together.
1 Our relations were quite normal.
2 Q. Before getting involved in politics in the early 1990s, was
3 Goran Hadzic involved in any organisation?
4 A. He was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and he
5 was elected in the 1991 elections for a deputy -- as a deputy of the
6 Vukovar Municipal Assembly.
7 Q. Okay. And in 1990 when he joined the SDS party, could you tell
8 the Court what was the level of his education?
9 A. He had graduated from the high school in Vinkovci.
10 Q. And to your knowledge did he obtain any other degrees later on?
11 A. I really don't know.
12 Q. That's fine. Now, at paragraph 62 of this statement, you start
13 describing the events that happened at the Plitvice Lake on the
14 31st of March, 1991, and that you were detained for about three days
15 during this arrest, which also involved Mr. Hadzic. Now, you discuss at
16 paragraph 70 of your statement how your ties with Mr. Hadzic were broken
17 after the Plitvice incident and that he came under the influence of
18 Milosevic following these events. I would like to show you a video, and
19 this is 65 ter 4 -- sorry, 4809. It is listed at tab 57.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And for the interpreters the video bears the
21 ERN V000-1388. Now, Your Honours, this clip lasts seven or eight minutes
22 and we'll see how long we need it. Okay it's 65 ter 4809.3.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
25 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Savic, do you recognise the speaker?
1 A. Yes. That is Goran Hadzic.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] As a president of the
4 Municipal Board which you belong to, it is my duty to say something about
5 our Vukovar Municipal Board even though there are many topics we are
6 going to discuss later on. Our party was established on 10th of June
7 last year in Vukovar and 19 boards had been established since then.
8 Today the party has 21 boards and I congratulate you on establishing your
9 two local boards. We have faced many problems in our party. You are
10 familiar with them and you know who caused them. However, we managed to
11 get over them and we should thank our current leadership for uniting us
12 and helping us achieve unity. We are stronger and united now. As a
13 people we have never looked to God, not left to right. We always knew
14 that we were stronger together and we have relied on that. That's why we
15 always sang that song 'We are stronger together.' I would like to tell
16 you now something about the programme that we discussed at the beginning.
17 As you know, at our rallies our main goal was united Yugoslavia, united
18 Yugoslav People's Army. These are our goals even today. We have
19 remained on the path of St. Sava, and I wish you all the best for this
20 holiday today."
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just pause here for a second.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Savic, first of all, we heard Goran Hadzic say here that
23 local boards were created in -- last year. So which date would you say
24 this video was recorded roughly?
25 A. January 1971. This was St. Sava's day, and when I look at it
1 more carefully, I think that this is Borovo Naselje settlement and the
2 forming of the board, and I can see that he's talking about two boards in
3 the same day. We would establish two or three boards in the same day
4 depending on the preparations. Then we would implement that immediately.
5 I think that this is Borovo Naselje.
6 Q. I think there may be a little error in the transcript at page 11,
7 line 25. It reads January 1971. Is that what you said, Mr. Savic?
8 A. Yes, January 1971. This is what I said. If we're talking about
9 a year. Since the establishment, then that would be that.
10 Q. Sorry, it's the 1971 that I'm having a hard time with. Is that
11 the right year?
12 A. Well, now I'm confused. If it was St. Sava's day, then it was
13 January. Then it must be 1971, 1971. 1991.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you for clarifying that, because --
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Very well. Let's carry on here. So you said it's
17 Borovo Naselje, January 1991.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] As our great Serbian academician,
20 Matija Beckovic, would say, 'St. Sava walked the path and everyone barked
21 at him, but let's not forget that. Let's follow his road.' It is not
22 the time to talk about the organisation of the party and its work right
23 now. I would rather say a few words about our current problems, because
24 I think that it is not the time for big speeches. We Serbs from Croatia
25 are free-thinking democrats by conviction. We even had radicals before
1 the war here, but where are we now? We found ourselves in a situation
2 where we have to split into two parties due to the politics of one
3 nation, to divide into Serbs and Croats. For us as people, it comes as a
4 shock. We're not nationalists. Our views are broader, and we have to
5 accept this as a fact and organise ourselves. I believe and I'm sure
6 that everyone who watched TV two nights ago felt the same as me. This is
7 what I think. Not even 80.000 Serbs could we manage to find in the world
8 and persuade them to talk badly about other people. And others have
9 80.000 machine-guns in their possession ..."
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just stop.
11 Q. Sorry. I'm stopping the video here for a second. What do we see
12 here on this image?
13 A. There is this image and underneath the image we can see the
14 writing St. Sava.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] 80.000 machine-guns in their
18 possession and they keep them so they could use them against us. It's
19 ridiculous. 1941 happened and 1941 happened -- 1945 happened too. Then
20 in 1971, we thought we would forgive them. It would never happen again.
21 But I'm telling you now ..."
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
23 Q. Sir, did you recognise some of the people we showed so far, under
24 the flag at the desk?
25 A. I recognise Mile Vukas, who was from the local commune in Borovo.
1 A member of the board there. I recognise some of the faces, and to my
2 great surprise I can actually recognise myself too.
3 Q. Are you on this -- on this still?
4 A. Yes. That's me in the middle. But I don't remember any details.
5 There's nothing really specific that I can say apart from what we have
6 seen and heard. This is the session at which the board was established.
7 Judging by the clothes I'm wearing, I had just arrived. I had been
8 underway somewhere or I was about to travel somewhere. You see that most
9 people are wearing their everyday clothes unlike me, but it's very
10 difficult for me to think back and recall the exact details where I'd
11 been off to, where I'd just arrived from, or indeed where I would soon
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. Play the rest of the video here.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] If the Croatian people do not
16 publicly renounce on their Ustasha policy, we will propose through our
17 Serbian National Council that we cut all ties between Serbs and Croats.
18 A perfidious policy pursued since the 1850s, since the time of
19 Ante Starcevic has now reached its final stage but they were not that
20 perfidious. They let -- had they pursued their perfidious policy for
21 another couple years, the Serb people would not have managed to unite.
22 They can do nothing to us now. In the work of our party at a regional
23 level, republican federal level, we face problems. Let me tell you why:
24 Because we are democrats. We have not thought about things they had said
25 and we thought whether or not they really meant it. However, I thank
1 them for that. We are united and there will be no division within the
2 party. We understood that people should talk to each other, but there is
3 no dialogue with people who are not people with inhuman people. I would
4 not discuss this anymore. I would like to invite you to join the
5 Serbian Democratic Party instead. You don't have to become members of
6 the party, but you have to follow its policies and participate in its
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. Mr. Savic, we just heard a moment ago Goran Hadzic saying that:
10 "If the Croatian people do not renounce their Ustasha, we will
11 propose through our Serbian National Council to cut all ties between
12 Serbs and Croats."
13 Now, in your statement at paragraph 132 and 133, you described
14 the use of the word "Ustasha." Was it usual for Mr. Hadzic to use this
16 A. Every now and then. Nevertheless, may I explain. These are
17 activities that were triggered by the daily goings-on in terms of
18 politics. When people spoke publicly, they spoke based on what they'd
19 seen on TV, what they'd read in the papers, and so on and so forth. One
20 had to take every opportunity to garner applause, to be publicly
21 acclaimed. So it was a perfectly normal type of register to use when
22 addressing an audience depending on the audience, the people who were
23 actually there. So, yes, one tended to use that kind of expression at
24 the time. It was very difficult to convince people. When you spoke
25 about the Ustasha, you actually were helping the Croatian side. The
1 Croats had their own platform. They were pursuing that platform. They
2 were telling us openly what they would do, and we needed our own
3 platform, too, instead of following the Croats or indeed anyone else.
4 I myself opposed these unnecessary acrobatics and making daily
5 political references like this during these speeches. I tried to exert
6 my influence to keep people from using such expressions.
7 Q. And why would you try to influence people to keep from using such
9 A. You see, if you think about the idea behind the establishment of
10 the board and the Serbian Democratic Party in this area, the idea was
11 mine and mine alone. I tried to talk to the people in Vukovar, the whole
12 town. I must have talked to about 300, 400 people. I informed them all
13 about what it was that it would be doing and that we were aiming to get
14 the party off the ground, but not a single time did I ever use the word
15 "Serb" during my contacts with these people. But each and every one of
16 them told me invariably, You know I'm a Serb. As soon as someone told me
17 that, You know I'm a Serb, what that meant to me is that there was
18 nothing more for me to expect from that particular person. I should
19 meddle no more. I'll just try to help as much as I can. So it was all
20 moving in that general direction. And then we started canvassing the
21 villages around the town itself where the atmosphere prevailing there was
22 very different and people were acting a different way. They were somehow
23 freer, and we in turn were freer to do our work.
24 Q. I would like to -- we can remove this clip now. I would like to
25 show some of the stills so we could help us identify some of the people
1 on the video.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we have on the screen 65 ter 4809.4.
3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Before going to another topic,
5 Mr. Savic, I would like to go back to the Ustasha terminology.
6 If I understood you correctly, and please tell me if I did, the word
7 "Ustasha" coming from Goran Hadzic is a pejorative term for Croats;
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
10 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I won't
11 ask a second question, because I was going to ask you if at that time
12 Croats themselves would call themselves Ustasha. Where there were Croats
13 that would call themselves Ustasha?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The Croats were not referring
15 to themselves as Ustasha, but I believe you've heard a lot already about
16 the Ustasha and about the Chetniks. These were two very backward
17 movements among the Serbs and among the Croats respectively. During the
18 Ustasha time, half of Croatia was under Italy. The Chetnik movement in
19 Serbia split the nation up into two halves. You had the Partisans on the
20 one hand and the Chetniks on the other. And what this led to was a
21 fratricidal war. So these are two backward movements politically and
22 ideologically speaking. So the ideologues behind these movements were
23 Communists. That's what it means. They were particularly skilful at
24 manipulating these Ustasha and these Chetniks.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. That was
1 very clear. Thank you.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [No interpretation]
3 Q. [In English] And just to follow up on His Honour's question,
4 Mr. Savic, what does this speech tell us in relation to Goran Hadzic's
5 views at the time?
6 A. What can I say about his views? As soon as we were set up as a
7 board, obviously there was a lot of focus on us by other services
8 operating in the area, some legal, some illegal. Nevertheless, the
9 ground was covered by a network of these services. Goran, nevertheless,
10 was president, and he had a certain freedom in terms of who he was
11 getting in touch with and how he was talking to people. At that time and
12 while we were still primarily in the town itself, we were still quite
13 united, as simple as that. But I was the first to fall under the
14 influence of these services and agents operating there, but I refused to
15 settle for any of the arrangements that were on offer, particularly those
16 across the Danube.
17 I can explain that, and it's simple enough really. The
18 Serbian Democratic Party had a platform, and the platform covered the
19 Republic of Croatia in territorial terms. We were to operate in the
20 Republic of Croatia, and we would be a party to Croatia's parliamentary
21 life. I did not believe that it was in our interest to link up with
22 anyone in Serbia or any other service. It was often said that the
23 Croat-Serb issue was the heart of the matter in terms of how the crisis
24 might be resolved. Nevertheless, this was really an issue between Zagreb
25 and Belgrade. That's what it was. The Serb-Croat issue was not
1 something for the Serbs in Croatia. The Serbs in Croatia were an issue
2 for Croatia, a democratic issue that Croatia had to come to terms with.
3 And that, I think, is the simplest explanation if you want to understand
4 the direction that our work as a party took at the time.
5 Q. Very well. Can you see the -- the image, going back to this
6 video, on this screen?
7 A. Let me see.
8 Q. The image might be a little bit blurry. I don't know if you can
9 identify anybody on this picture.
10 A. This is Mile Vukas, the man on the left at the edge of the table,
11 who appears to be writing something. The one with the moustache. He's
12 sitting at the edge of that table.
13 I don't recognise the rest. Nevertheless, having watched that
14 footage a minute ago, I caught a segment where I could recognise
15 Vukcevic, Professor Vukcevic. And now understand one thing.
16 Professor Vukcevic and I were off to another meeting right after this
17 one, and that's why I was waiting for the Assembly to conclude, and I am
18 talking of Borovo of all places.
19 Q. Yes. Can we go perhaps to page 6 of this set of photos. Is this
20 the same person you were telling us earlier?
21 A. Yes, that's right. That's Mile Vukas.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we have a set of eight or nine
24 photos. Perhaps it would be useful to just identify this person with the
25 letter A. Maybe the usher can help us marking this picture with the pen.
1 Q. Perhaps in the top right-hand corner of this image you could
2 write the person's name.
3 A. Mile Vukas; right?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. My hand's a bit unsteady.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. If we could see --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see what I wrote, can't
8 you? My hand was at an awkward angle, but I think you can actually read
9 what I wrote, can't you? Or perhaps you want me to write it all over
10 again, do you?
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
12 Q. I think it's on the record as well as. So it'll be fine.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could seize image and if I could tender
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 4809.4, page 3 in e-court
17 marked by the witness shall be assigned Exhibit P52. Thank you.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the next page. I'm sorry. The
19 next one. No. We already saw that one. And the last one, please.
20 Q. The person to the right of this image, who would that be, if you
22 A. The face is familiar, but I can't remember his name. I can't
23 remember his name. He left Vukovar, so I haven't seen him for a very
24 long time.
25 Q. Okay. So you just mentioned Professor Vukcevic. We hadn't
1 discussed him earlier. Is he in any of these images or was he in the
2 video-clip that you saw earlier?
3 A. I did catch sight of him just very fractionally. He was to my
4 left somewhere.
5 Q. Okay. Moving on, you just mentioned the work of the party. I'd
6 like to show you another document which is at tab 10, that is 65 ter
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And, Your Honours, I'm just reminded that the
9 video-clip that we just viewed hasn't been tendered. Perhaps I could
10 make a submission after the first break about this video, because it's
11 about an hour, and we would be seeking to tender the entire video. So at
12 this stage perhaps we can mark it for identification.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: You would not be seeking --
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We would be seeking to tender the --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: The entire.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: -- entire. Yes. It's a clip of about seven or
17 eight minutes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The entire video is about an hour.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: You see. So perhaps we could mark it for
22 identification now and I will make a submission after the first break.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's mark it for identification.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: What is the 65 ter number of the entire video,
1 Mr. Demirdjian?
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The entire video is 65 ter 4809.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: 4809.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Registrar tells me that they don't have it.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: They don't have the whole video. Okay for now
9 let's just tender the clip and we'll deal with the whole video later.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Marked for identification or just marked?
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: For admission, full admission.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, video-clip under 65 ter 4809.3
14 shall be assigned Exhibit P53. Thank you.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Savic, do you recognise this document?
17 A. Yes. This is the platform of the Serbian Democratic Party
18 Regional Board for Slavonia and Baranja.
19 Q. And when you say Slavonia, Baranja, does that apply to both
20 Slavonias? Both eastern and western?
21 A. Yes. We just tried to keep it short, so we said Slavonia and
22 Baranja, which includes both east and west. We wanted to avoid using any
23 really long names like the Communists did.
24 Q. Now, at the top of this page we could see that it was -- it was
25 prepared at a session of the 3rd of February, 1991, in Lipik. Could
1 you -- just to situate ourselves could you tell the Trial Chamber where
2 Lipik is.
3 A. It's right next to Pakrac. It's a thermal resort from
4 Austro-Hungary. It's very old. So the meeting was held there because
5 they actually have a hall that was big enough to hold all of us, all the
6 candidates, and on the 3rd of February that was where we assembled to
7 establish our board.
8 Q. Now, on this page we can see that's the programme of the work of
9 the SDS, and I'd like to bring your attention to item number 2. In the
10 English version could we scroll down a little bit. Thank you very much.
11 Under item 2, in the second paragraph of item 2 it is written
12 here that:
13 "In the present order of things and relations, any kind of
14 contact with the party in power in Croatia is out of the question until
15 the abolishment of the legal institutional and other norms and practices
16 which deprive the Serbian people of their rights."
17 Now, in what context was this issued, Mr. Savic?
18 A. As we were preparing for the multi-party elections in Croatia,
19 during that time the Croatian Democratic Union was set up as a party that
20 was meant to unite all Croats and their interests and also to articulate
21 the interests of the Croatian people. The party was set up first and
22 foremost in order to finish the work -- the groundwork laid by the
23 Communists. Their approach was quite open about one thing, the Serbs in
24 Croatia, and this was always seen as something of a problem for the
25 Croats, the percentage of Serbs -- Serbian population in Croatia. They
1 were loud and clear about this, that we would have our rights taken away,
2 our property taken away, that we would be driven out and eventually
3 liquidated. So what they ended up doing, they had been very up front
4 about it previously. So you have to see this story against that
5 background. First came the constitutional changes. The Serbs saw some
6 of their rights taken away pursuant to the new constitution. People were
7 angry and dissatisfied as they were being manipulated by both sides at
8 the same time. So this is the background against which you must see
9 these things.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if we could go to page 3 in the B/C/S
11 version, and that is page 4 in the English version. Under item 7 -- in
12 the B/C/S we need to scroll down a little bit. Yes. Thank you.
13 Q. Now, by this time, this is the 3rd of February, 1991, we see here
14 that the SDS is working actively to establish Serbian autonomy. Was this
15 an item that was high on the agenda already at the time?
16 A. Well, you know, amid all this chaos and everything that was going
17 on, it was very difficult to prioritise. A platform and our positions
18 really depended on how the political situation continued to evolve.
19 Would Croatia secede and become independent? Would there be a
20 confederation? Or would there be a third solution in terms of localising
21 the existing crisis? No serious discussion on our political status could
22 possibly take place. The pendulum kept swinging between political
23 autonomy, territorial autonomy, and so on and so forth, but in practical
24 terms it was all on a day-to-day basis and it was impossible to define
25 what course events would take.
1 Q. And who -- who received this -- this document or who was it
2 meant -- who was it meant to be written for?
3 A. This document, the party platform, was drafted by Milun Karadzic,
4 who was secretary of the Slatina board. He was very active, an elderly
5 gentleman who tended not to move about too much, but we spent most of our
6 time travelling around. So it was up to him to draft the platform. But
7 it wasn't really carefully designed platform. It was just a spur of the
8 moment thing, a sudden inspiration. We were the first movement, and then
9 we had to set ourselves up as a proper political party. Therefore, we
10 needed as many documents as we could possibly get and as much political
11 material to legitimise our position as a political party.
12 Q. And who was the document distributed to?
13 A. Candidates were appointed at the Assembly meeting who were people
14 from Municipal Boards. Mr. Hadzic from Vukovar and Mr. Bogunovic as
15 well. A number of others, too. All of the delegates were familiar with
16 the platform. They were shown the platform and served a copy.
17 Milun Karadzic was in charge of the Presidency's work. I was a member of
18 this Presidency. The entire board was familiar with this.
19 There was another noteworthy situation. Mr. Hadzic and
20 Mr. Bogunovic were the names put forward as members of the board.
21 Following the Assembly meeting, I had come under a lot of pressure by
22 Veljko Dzakula, Ilija Sasic, and someone else whose name escapes me.
23 They wanted me to join the board as well. I said, Goran is the board
24 president. Bogunovic has now been appointed. There's no need for me to
25 join. Nevertheless, they were adamant that I should join as well.
1 I'm not sure what their intentions were, but they were very
2 unhappy about me not joining, but that's what it was. The people who
3 were appointed eventually became board members, and that was that.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I offer this document, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 102 shall be
7 assigned Exhibit P54. Thank you.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. Now, in your statement, Mr. Savic, you explain how after the
10 events at the Plitvice Lakes your ties with Mr. Hadzic were broken. Did
11 you have any contacts with him following this incident?
12 A. We were in the prison hospital in Zagreb for two days separately.
13 On the first day I had a meeting with Degoricija and assistant justice
14 minister, Hajdukovic. The second day, the minister of the interior
15 Mr. Boljkovac and his assistant came, and we agreed then that we should
16 go home, that they would escort us. After that, I was brought home and
17 they left me there. So we didn't have any more direct contacts for a
18 couple of days at least. I was not free to move around. I had to be
19 careful. I had to be careful where I went, why I went. Simply the goal
20 was for me to be expelled from Vukovar. There was a lot of noise in the
21 media. There was a lot of pressure. There were attacks on the house by
22 telephone and in all other possible ways, but I stayed.
23 Q. And after your release, what happens to the -- what happened to
24 the SDS party?
25 A. Many things began to change quickly after that, and things moved
1 along quickly. I couldn't get involved with that that much anymore. All
2 the activities were taken over by Vukasin Soskocanin within the party,
3 who was the president of the board in Borovo. That was the biggest board
4 that we had. From time to time they contacted me about co-ordinating
5 activities and tasks, but within a couple of days, actually, I was told
6 by the people from the HDZ board in Vukovar that an order had arrived
7 about my liquidation. Why did I say the HDZ? Because very often the HDZ
8 is discussed in a negative context as the party exclusively to blame for
9 everything that happened. However, the Vukovar board and the people in
10 Vukovar there, I was in very good terms with them. Even before I take
11 over the board I contacted them. I asked them what they thought about
12 it, and they were in favour of it. They said, Well, something has to be
13 tried. We have to try something. So they reported to me from the board,
14 and they said, You know that now no harm will come to you from us, but
15 there are a lot of people who have been brought in from the outside, so
16 just be careful where you go.
17 After that, I was summoned by the Croatian radio Zagreb,
18 Mirjana Rakela, the editor, called me and asked if I was willing at 1630
19 hundred hours on the 2nd of May to participate in a programme that would
20 be broadcast live on radio Zagreb. I cannot remember the name of the
21 programme anymore. And then she said, Mr. Savic, you will be broadcast
22 live. Everything you say will be broadcast live. She was very willing
23 to go through with this. I said, Well, I cannot tell you anything right
24 now about this but let's talk in a couple of days, but as far as I'm
25 concerned, there's no problem.
1 After that -- so this was planned for the 2nd of May. So one day
2 I received information that Mr. Hadzic was in Zagreb to see the assistant
3 minister of the interior, Mr. Degoricija. I didn't know anything about
4 this, so I was a little surprised about it, even though he had the
5 right -- in any case, I think Degoricija invited him to come. Simply I
6 was a bit reluctant. I didn't insist about anything. I didn't want to
7 create any problems about this, particularly because there was a
8 completely different order that had come about myself. So I then just
9 took it a notch down about all of these activities, or I controlled
10 myself, in any case.
11 Q. And to wrap up on the topic, what happened to the political
12 activities of the SDS party during the summer of 1991? Did it continue
13 carrying out its activities?
14 A. There was a lot of pressure already after the formation of the
15 Serbian National Council. People were falling away. There was a
16 parallel group of people who introduced themselves as a constituent
17 organ. They were saying that the party could not be a constituent organ
18 and the Serbian National Council would take over all the functions in
19 this area.
20 Q. Very well. Moving on to a slightly different topic, at paragraph
21 123 of your statement, you explain that a retired JNA general,
22 Radojica Nenezic, had recommended Goran Hadzic to Slobodan Milosevic to
23 make him the man who would represent the SBWS. Could you tell the Court
24 when this took place?
25 A. Since I was first offered to go to Belgrade for talks but I
1 didn't go, but in any case, I controlled who would go and through whom
2 this -- these contacts would proceed. So Goran proceeded in this way.
3 We contacted. We spoke openly. We were together. We drove together a
4 lot, and I asked him, What does it mean to get close to Milosevic in this
5 way, and what does it mean to you to go to Belgrade? And he said to me,
6 Well, listen. Milosevic is a true Serb. He is a good man. He doesn't
7 have any major political ambitions. Let's just have this resolve itself
8 and then he will step back. And it was all a lot of nonsense. I mean, I
9 didn't really go into it whether he would stop with his activities or
11 Secondly, anyone who went to Belgrade, they would always say, I'm
12 going to see Milosevic, but the road to Milosevic through -- leads
13 through some alternative ways, through the SPS political party or the old
14 retired functions from the Military Intelligence Service, the KOS. So
15 this Nenezic was a person from this area. He was quite correct in his
16 conduct, popular among people. So at one time when we met each other
17 during the summer and we met each other at his initiative, he told me
18 that he regretted very much recommending Goran and for -- and I can tell
19 you he even died with this burden. He was very unhappy and very sad that
20 things had taken this turn.
21 So there was this line through which probably some other people,
22 too, did it. I mean, there were more lines to Belgrade than telephone
24 Q. Thank you. I'm skipping a little bit ahead in time, sir, because
25 I want to show you a video so you can help us identify a few individuals.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask for 65 ter 04982 to be played on
2 Sanction. Okay. So that's 04982.1, and the ERN is V000-6733. We can
3 start playing it from the beginning.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
6 Q. Can you see the video on your screen, Mr. Savic?
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 Q. Now, we showed you this video yesterday. Is it correct you saw
9 this for the first time yesterday?
10 A. That's right, yes.
11 Q. Okay. And it is correct to say you're not able to identify the
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. I'll ask you to help us with some of the people we see on the
15 screen. Do you recognise this person right here?
16 A. Yes. This is Milan Martic.
17 Q. What do we see behind him? What's the emblem there?
18 A. Well, that ought to be some kind of emblem with eagles. This is
19 one of those Serbian insignia. It's some sort of Serbian insignia. I
20 would often say that whoever would make something up, they would
21 immediately implement it. So this is the same with this symbol. I think
22 it says "Baranja" on it or something. There is a name on the -- on the
23 symbol, but I cannot really tell what it is.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. It says "Krajina," I think. Captain First Class Mladic. I think
1 that the person in the glasses behind him is Frenki Simatovic in the
2 second row. Jugoslav Kostic is in the first row. I don't know this
3 older man next to Mladic. Vojin Susa is behind in the second row next to
4 Frenki. Mile Paspalj, Goran Hadzic. I cannot recognise the person next
5 to Goran. I simply don't know who that is. And here is Jaja, chief of
6 the Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem security service, Stevo Bogic.
7 Q. Very well. Perhaps we could at this time pull up the stills we
8 have from this video so you can mark the individuals with letters so we
9 can record this. So this would be which 65 ter number? 4982.2 for the
10 stills. Yeah.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours?
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you intend to tender only stills or the video
13 as well.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In this case, Your Honour -- in this case,
15 Your Honour, we will tender the stills. We will have another witness to
16 identify the location and the time, et cetera. Thank you.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. On this first still, maybe if you can
19 mark the first person to the left with the letter A and tell us who that
20 person is on the record.
21 A. This is Mr. Hadzic.
22 Q. Okay. Maybe with the assistance of the usher redo that letter A,
24 A. [No interpretation].
1 Q. I know it's not very easy on the screen, but let's give it a shot
3 A. Mm-hmm. This is not the best thing for me. I cannot manage to
4 do this. It's not working.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would a circle work?
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We will have two circles on this image, that's
7 the problem. But we can say person to the left, person to the right.
8 Q. Very well. Who is the person on the far left in the first row?
9 Okay. Well, yes.
10 A. Mr. Goran Hadzic is on the left. That's marked by the letter A.
11 It was supposed to be a letter A. On the right-hand side is Stevo Bogic,
12 marked with a B. So this is not the person right next to Goran but the
13 one -- the second person from -- standing from him.
14 Q. Very well.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can I ask for this image to be admitted and
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4982.2, e-court
19 page 1 marked by the witness, shall be assigned Exhibit P55. Thank you.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And can I ask to go to the next page, please, in
21 this set of photos.
22 Q. Yes. And can you tell us in this image next to Mr. Hadzic who is
23 the person there?
24 A. Mile Paspalj.
25 Q. Very well. Can we go to the very last page, please. And I'm
1 sorry -- how can we do this?
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Perhaps we could tender the image we just saw
3 with the comment that it's Mr. Paspalj. The whole set. Okay. Let me
4 just deal with this one too. On this picture I would need the assistance
5 of the usher to mark a few persons, please.
6 Q. You already gave us some comments while watching the video. Can
7 you mark the individuals again starting from the far left, the persons
8 that you recognise with the letter A, B, C, and D, if possible.
9 A. This is Captain First Class Mladic.
10 Q. Very well. Who else do you recognise?
11 A. I don't know the person standing next to him, but the person next
12 to that one is Jugoslav Kostic. Are we going to use A and B again?
13 Q. Yes. And for the individuals behind that you were talking about
14 you can use the letters C and D?
15 A. Frenki Simatovic is behind, then. That's C. And Vojin Susa is
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Can we capture this image as well.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Very well, admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 4982.2 page 9 marked by the
20 witness shall be assigned Exhibit P56 thank you.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
22 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier Stevo Bogic, Mr. Jaja. To your
23 knowledge, you already told us his function. You said he was head of the
24 state security. Now, how long did he remain in that position, to your
1 A. I really don't know for how long, but I know that Goran boasted,
2 saying that the appointment of Mr. Stevo Bogic for chief of security
3 service would guarantee peace in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and
4 Western Srem. That's what he said. Bogic was a problematic person, a
5 provocateur, somebody who might even threw out from meetings, sometimes.
6 And once at a meeting with some people were Belgrade at one time when I
7 prompted him a little bit he said, Do you know that he threw me out of
8 meetings? And I said, Yes. And as for you and me, nothing has changed
9 there. I don't why Goran appointed him. I don't know what his reasons
10 were, but there it is.
11 Q. Very well. Can I show you a document. It's at tab 38. It's
12 65 ter 05869. Now, you can see that this is a list. It says here "List
13 of salary payments." On the next page in a moment we will show you the
14 date of this document. You can see the list of members here. You have
15 president of the republic, Goran Hadzic, and under number 7 you still see
16 Mr. Stevo Bogic.
17 Can we go to page 2, please. In English as well. Do you see the
18 date on this document, Mr. Savic?
19 A. Yes. The 15th of June, 1992.
20 Q. Now, you were -- you were still in the region at the time in
21 1992. Does it fit with your recollection that Mr. Bogic was still a
22 member of the government at that time?
23 A. I think that he was, yes. In 1992, I was in Vukovar, in my
25 Q. And I apologise. Could we return to the first page. Now, you
1 see the list of ministers and by this time I assume that this is the
2 government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; is that correct?
3 A. I think that I saw Knin at the bottom. I think that this would
4 be the Knin people, because Paspalj, Zdravko Zecevic, this is all Knin.
5 The prime minister. Paspalj was a speedily elected president of the
6 Assembly when the Vance-Owen Plan was supposed to be signed. They
7 brought him from the forest and appointed him to be as the president of
8 the Assembly, because some document needed to be signed. He is a
9 forestry engineer. Then you have Dzakula. He was the president of the
10 municipality. I think that he was doing something in the Red Cross.
11 That's Knin. It's Knin. Bogic, Stevo, then that's the government of the
12 Serbian Republic of the Krajina then. Because we had so many Assemblies
13 and governments that's now it's very difficult to tell which one is
14 which. Then this is the Republic of the Serbian Krajina after it was
15 formed up there in the village. Then Stevo was the chief of the security
16 service of the Krajina then. Koncarevic, Ilija; Veljko Vukelic. I know
17 all of these people from the list and I know where they are, but I don't
18 know what they were doing. Well, here the secretary of the government,
19 Dusan Starovic, Jelica Radmila, secretary of the Assembly but this is the
20 government of the Krajina.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I offer this document, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before we take the break -- sorry.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5869 shall be
25 assigned Exhibit P57. Thank you.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just before we take the break, Your Honours, can
2 I clarify one answer the witness just gave.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Of course.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
5 Q. You mentioned that Paspalj was speedily elected president of the
6 Assembly when the Vance-Owen Plan was supposed to be signed. Is that
7 correct? Is that what you meant by it?
8 A. Yes, yes. Babic was against that. He didn't want to sign it. I
9 don't know exactly what this was about, but anyway, that was the
10 principle of how they resolved problems, to find somebody from the area,
11 no matter who, no matter what, and then if they appointed -- if they
12 agreed and were appointed, if a signature was necessary, then they would
13 immediately proceed towards appointing that person.
14 Q. And I just wanted to clarify. For the plan, you said Vance-Owen.
15 Is that the right name of the plan? Because we're in 1992 here.
16 A. Some of the peace agreements. Don't hold me exactly to the word.
17 I mean I just said Vance-Owen like that. It was one of the peace
18 agreements that was used then as a pretext to appoint Paspalj as the
19 president of the Assembly and the Vance-Owen Plan was not there in 1991.
20 That's -- that's right.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Maybe this is an appropriate time, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: How long will you need after the break,
23 Mr. Demirdjian?
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have one video and two maps to show, so I
25 would expect about 15 minutes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. Witness, we'll take -- Mr. Savic,
2 we'll take the break now and come back at 3.30. You will be escorted out
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.00 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can the witness be escorted in, please. Thank
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I've been informed that I have
11 about seven minutes left on the time we estimated, so I'll try to wrap it
12 up as quickly as I can.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Mr. Savic, in your statement, at paragraph 140, you explained the
18 organising of volunteers who were sent from Serbia to the area of
19 Vukovar. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can I show you the next video-clip, which is 65 ter 4873.1, and
22 the ERN is V000-2233.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Anchor: As previously announced,
25 Goran Hadzic, president of the Serb region of Slavonia Baranja and
1 Western Srem, is in our studio. Good evening.
2 "Goran Hadzic: Good evening.
3 "Anchor: When did you arrive in Belgrade?
4 "Goran Hadzic: Well, I arrived last night.
5 "Anchor: Can I ask you as a reporter what the current situation
6 in the theatre of war is?
7 "Goran Hadzic: Well, the situation is much clearer
8 military-wise. We have a big part of free liberated territory in our
9 area, that is the whole of Baranja, Western Srem from Vinkovci in the
10 direction of Sid and the bigger part of this Osijek field. That is
11 between Osijek and Vukovar. Vukovar is currently blocked. We expect
12 denouement of the situation in Vukovar any day. We are capable of
13 dealing with this quickly but we are thinking of human lives and taking
14 care that this will be done slowly and securely with as few casualties as
15 possible; that is, we do not want any casualties.
16 "Anchor: Do you have information on events in Vukovar? Do you
17 have information on Serb people in Zagreb?"
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. I just pause it here for a second.
19 Q. Here Mr. Hadzic is mentioning that some parts of the territory is
20 free. Vukovar is still blocked. Could you situate for the Trial Chamber
21 around which time this interview would have taken place?
22 A. This interview might have occurred just before the fighting in
23 Vukovar ceased, which was sometime on the 18th or the 19th. So I would
24 place this sometime back in early November 1991.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Let's play the rest of the clip.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Do you have any information on the
3 Serb people in Zagreb?
4 "All communications lines are down. There are no phone lines
5 available and people cannot talk to their families.
6 "As I said, I'm not concerned with the military issue. I am
7 positive a final solution will follow. I am, however, concerned about
8 some information I personally received from some of our services. They
9 tell me what the situation is in Zagreb and we know what happened in
10 Vukovar, mass crimes against the civilian population. We will
11 interrogate perpetrators and bring them to face a court a law, a national
12 court. I'm certain they will be punished accordingly for their misdeeds.
13 It is no use whining. This is neither asked nor expected of us. The
14 Serbs never whine. Serbs should fight and will fight to protect their
16 "You have already appealed to all able-bodied men to return to
17 their homes and join their comrades who are already on the front line.
18 Was the appeal successful?
19 "The appeal was success fell in every way. A number of our
20 combatants who fled have now returned. They are now fighting along the
21 front lines. We also called in volunteers from Serbia irrespective of
22 their party affiliations, Serbs to join or ranks and fight with Serb
23 insignia for the Serbian people who are at risk. They came. I will take
24 this opportunity to thank all of them to came to fight. The group from
25 Belgrade stands out. They are always on the first lines of combat. They
1 fight and they are killed just like us but do not hesitate to go all the
2 way and win."
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
4 Q. Now, at this clip at the last section we hear Mr. Hadzic talking
5 about the volunteers who joined from Serbia. Having regard to what
6 you've said in your statement, to your knowledge who on the side of the
7 SBWS was co-ordinating -- co-ordinating or responsible for the reception
8 of the volunteers?
9 A. The Territorial Defence board of Vukovar was set up in Sid. This
10 boards would spend their days registering people who came over from
11 Vukovar to register with the board. They would give them weapons. They
12 would give them appropriate clothes to wear, and they would take them to
13 Vukovar. So the Territorial Defence Staff of Vukovar in Sid was in
14 charge of doing that for everyone from -- from our area. That is from
15 the Vukovar area.
16 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber who was in charge of this
17 staff in Sid?
18 A. Dusko Filipovic was the commander, and Slobodan Grahovac was the
20 Q. And at paragraph 142 of your statement, you mentioned that
21 Borislav Bogunovic was also at the headquarters in Sid. What was his
22 role there?
23 A. The staff was housed on the premises of the Socialist Party of
24 Serbia in the town centre of Sid. Day-time activities proceeded as per
25 usual. Sometimes Boro Bogunovic, Kertes and other people would visit
1 during the times that I was there. So these, roughly speaking, would be
2 the people who dropped by. Boro Bogunovic was minister of the interior
3 of the Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem. I suppose that was the
4 capacity, official capacity in which he appeared there.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I offer this video, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4873.1 shall be
8 assigned Exhibit P58. Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
10 Q. The last topic that I'd like to deal with, Mr. Savic, is the
11 issue of Lovas, where you explain in your statement that you stayed there
12 for several weeks in October and November 1991. Now, it is correct to
13 say you stayed there until the end of the operations in Vukovar; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you indicated that you knew a number of people there, and
17 you've indicated also a number of locations in paragraph 150 onwards of
18 your statement. What I would like to do is mark these locations on an
19 aerial image we will be displaying on the screen. That is 65 ter 6276 at
20 tab 64. And with the assistance of the usher I hope we can mark some of
21 these locations.
22 Are you able to situate yourself on this map, Mr. Savic?
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. First, could you indicate with a line the main road leading into
25 Lovas on this map.
1 A. The main road leading into Lovas is on the left-hand side of the
2 screen. So this is the main line leading all the way into Lovas town
3 centre or village centre.
4 Q. Okay. In your statement you mention a police station. Are you
5 able to locate the police station on this map?
6 A. The police station was here, in the middle of the village. You
7 go up to access the village, and the police station was the first
8 building on the left. The house used to belong to someone, a person who
9 used to work in Germany. It was a new house, well equipped. It would
10 not have been right for the police not to enjoy an appropriate degree of
11 comfort, would it.
12 Q. Now, I know it's a little bit difficult. Would you be able to
13 mark it with -- let's start with number 1 this time instead of letters,
14 see if that could make it easier.
15 A. This is number 1, in which case that should be over here.
16 There's a bit of a blot here now.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could the usher perhaps help us clean that up
18 and write number 1 again.
19 Q. Could you just mark number 1 there without putting a line.
20 A. There you go, number 1.
21 Q. Then you also mention that when the government had meetings in
22 Lovas, they held meetings in a building next to the police station. Can
23 you mark that with a 2.
24 A. It was right across the way from that building. There was a
25 residential building there containing also some business premises. It's
1 a building that belonged to the Lovas co-op. It was right across the
2 way. There was some separate rooms on the ground floor, and a grocery,
3 whereas the last two floors were reserved for residential flats.
4 Q. You also mention that shortly after the takeover of Lovas a
5 headquarter was established by Ljuban Devetak. Where would that be
7 A. That building and those premises were used for the purposes of
8 the staff as well. There was enough room there, and that building was
9 used for everything that was going on.
10 Q. Okay. Can you say -- when you say that building, do you mean the
11 building you marked with number 2 just now; is that right?
12 A. Number 2, yes.
13 Q. Okay. And are you able to locate the Zadruga building on this
15 A. The workshop and the machine factory as well as the kitchen, it
16 was down the street from that building in the opposite direction towards
17 the lower corner of this photograph. It was right here. You can see
18 that there are actually some hangars there.
19 Q. And did the JNA have any headquarters in Lovas?
20 A. The JNA were using a house that is further down the street from
21 the police station. It was here somewhere, also to the left and further
22 down the street from that house.
23 Q. And just for the record, you've marked the JNA house with the
24 number 4; is that right?
25 A. Number 4, yes.
1 Q. And again for the record, you marked the Zadruga as number 3.
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. You also mention in your statement that the JNA had a check-point
4 at the entrance of the village. Is that visible on -- would that be
5 visible on this map?
6 A. That would be on the left-hand side of this image. So this is
7 the start of the access road, and you can see the co-op facilities here.
8 It's a large-scale yard. You can see a number of hangars there. There's
9 a silo over here, and this is where the check-point was, on the -- right
10 next to the gate that people used to access the yard.
11 Q. Could you mark that area with the number 5.
12 A. [Marks]
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Very well. Is that visible enough,
14 Your Honours? Okay. Can I ask to mark this document as well.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 6276 marked by the witness in
17 court shall be assigned Exhibit P59. Thank you.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
19 Q. And my last question on this topic, at paragraph 193, you state
20 that Goran Hadzic -- you had seen him in Lovas. Can you indicate to us
21 how many times you had seen him in Lovas?
22 A. Goran was sometimes there. We met several times, even along the
23 access road. We would exchange greetings, that sort of thing, but I
24 never attended any meetings there. I don't know who he was with. I
25 suppose with Ljuban, but he would sometimes come and, yes, I did see him
2 Q. Just to be clear, you were there during the months of October and
3 November? Is that -- would that be right, or can you specify how long
4 you were in Lovas?
5 A. I was there until the cessation of hostilities in Vukovar. As
6 soon as one could go to Vukovar, I went immediately.
7 Q. Okay. And you told us that you didn't -- you don't know who he
8 was with when he came to Lovas. Did you know what he was doing when he
9 came to Lovas?
10 A. When I saw him, he was on his own. We met twice at the very
11 gate. We just greet each other. He would go his way, and I would go
12 mine. That's what happened. I never really asked any questions as to
13 his reason for being there.
14 Q. Very well. And you were saying that you never attended meetings
15 there. To your knowledge were there meetings in Lovas?
16 A. I know there were some dinners and lunches that Ljuban organised
17 for the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem or individual
18 ministers. He was particularly fond of organising parties for Jaja. I
19 don't know of any other meetings except for the 2nd of October. I think
20 a government meeting took place on that date. I was in charge of
21 organising that meeting. The objective of that particular meeting was
22 for the government to show up in this area, the government from Erdut.
23 All the people from the villages across the area were assembled. This
24 was harvest season, but they didn't have anything to use in terms of
25 equipment or anything like that. So we talked about the harvest mostly.
1 That was the subject discussed at the meeting and people came from as far
2 afield as Erdut, about seven or eight of them. If you need their names I
3 could enumerate them for you. I think there are actually minutes from
4 that meeting that are available somewhere.
5 Q. Yes, and those minutes are mentioned in or statement. I just
6 want to clarify. When you say Ljuban, can you give us his last name?
7 A. Ljuban Devetak. Whenever I say Ljuban, that's who I mean.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, that's all I ask. I'm told that I
10 have to mention something for the record in relation to the clips. If I
11 may be given a second.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I'll deal with it after the next
14 break just to clarify. It's in relation to the video-clips and as
15 associated exhibits. I'll get back to you.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Cross-examination.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savic, good afternoon. My name is
22 Zoran Zivanovic and I represent Mr. Hadzic in the proceedings.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. You answered a question by my learned friend the Prosecutor,
25 saying that you gave two statements to the OTP, one in 2002, the other in
1 2003; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. You also testified in the Stanisic case, did you not?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Previously you had met with the Prosecutor twice in order to
6 prepare you for your testimony in that case in 2008 and 2009, had you
8 A. Yes, indeed.
9 Q. Finally, we see this new consolidated statement from you which
10 the Prosecutor has shown you and which you signed. I will be asking you
11 a series of questions in relation to that amalgamated statement. I will
12 tell you right off it was very difficult for me to distinguish some
13 things based on that statement, namely the things you said which you know
14 by means of direct knowledge, direct experience, meaning you actually
15 heard or saw something yourself on the one hand and on the other your own
16 views, your own positions and theories which you somehow acquired at the
17 time. So it was very difficult for me as I was reading your statement to
18 keep the two apart.
19 Now this statement has been admitted into evidence. You make a
20 total of 74 references to Slobodan Milosevic in that statement in a total
21 of 39 different paragraphs of your statement. What I want to know is
22 this: Did you ever actually meet Slobodan Milosevic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You gave the first two statements in 2002 and 2003 at a time when
25 the Milosevic trial was underway before this Tribunal. Did the OTP call
1 you as a witness in that case?
2 A. No, they didn't.
3 Q. I also noticed that you make several references to
4 Vojislav Seselj in your statement, Vojislav Seselj and his acolytes or
5 members of his party, a total of 53 references in a total of 25 different
6 paragraphs throughout your statement. Did the OTP ever call you to
7 appear as a witness that at that case?
8 A. No, they didn't.
9 Q. Based on your testimony in the Stanisic and Simatovic trial, I
10 noticed that you were asked an explicit question by one of the Defence
11 counsel, I believe, and you said that you were never directly in contact
12 with either Stanisic or Simatovic. Is that true?
13 A. Yes that's true.
14 Q. When you say that, does that mean, Yes, that's true, that's what
15 I said, or, That's true, I was never directly in contact with either of
17 A. I was never directly in contact with either of them.
18 Q. There is something I'd like to ask you first just to shed light
19 on some of your movements following the 2nd of May, 1991. I'm reading
20 your statement and I get the impression that up until that time, the
21 2nd of May, you were living in Vukovar. Am I right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is the day you left for Serbia; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us exactly where you settled down when you arrived
1 in Serbia on the 2nd of May? Where did you live?
2 A. In Sabac, in my parents' home, also in Odzaci, in a studio that I
3 got from the Hypol general manager, Mr. Knezevic. He allowed me to use
5 Q. How long were you in Sabac for, roughly speaking?
6 A. My mother was there and I would come and go. It's really
7 difficult to pinpoint a time period. I would go there every couple of
8 days, whenever I needed some rest. Whenever I needed to calm down a
9 little, that was what I would go. So it wasn't something definite. It
10 was whenever I needed to go, that's when I went.
11 Q. So you were not in Sabac all the time?
12 A. No. No. Mostly I moved from Vojvodina in Backa Palanka to
13 Apatin, Sombor. That's the area that I moved in.
14 Q. I asked you where you lived. Does that mean you also lived in
15 Backa Palanka, Apatin, Sombor, in Odzaci, or you lived in a specific
17 A. Well, between Backa Palanka, Odzaci, Sombor, there's only half an
18 hour distance. When I was in my studio apartment, I was in Odzaci, and
19 all these other places I went to on day trips.
20 Q. In other words, you lived in Odzaci, and from time to time would
21 go to visit your mother in Sabac, and you went to other places as well.
22 A. That's right. That's right.
23 Q. Can you tell me how long were you in Odzaci?
24 A. I think until late May 1991. Until the 20th of May, let's say.
25 Then I moved to Belgrade.
1 Q. Did you rent an apartment there or did you live --
2 A. In Belgrade I lived either in a hotel or I would just go to
3 Sabac. I had some sort of accommodation. I mean, we were putting up
4 refugees in a place in Zvezdara. There was a kindergarten that we were
5 given for our use, so very often I was up there in that kindergarten.
6 There were dorms that were prepared for refugees. That was a working
7 kitchen. That's it, more or less. But if I stayed in the centre late,
8 then I would sleep in one of the hotels there, most often in the
9 Union Hotel.
10 Q. So from time to time you stayed at the Union Hotel. From time to
11 time you were at this refugee centre in Zvezdara.
12 A. Or I went to the Hotel Moskva.
13 Q. The Hotel Moskva too?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you there by yourself? I know that you have a wife. Did
16 you arrive there with your wife or were you by yourself?
17 A. I was by myself then. My wife was with me for a certain period
18 of time when I was at the medical military hospital, then I transferred
19 her in March to get out of all of that crowded area, but for a brief
20 period of time she stayed with me at the Hotel Moskva where we were
22 Q. I'm sorry, when you say March are you talking about 1991 or 1992?
23 A. 1991. I'm talking about 1991. This is all 1991.
24 Q. And what was the fuss in March 1991?
25 A. When I left the prison hospital, when I came home, there were
1 attempts to attack the house. There were telephone threats, all of these
2 things, and my health wasn't all that good either. However, I could not
3 go for treatment to the city hospital. I had to go to Belgrade, and I
4 was at the Military Medical Academy for a week.
5 Q. I'm asking this because you said that this was in March. I
6 understood that you were released from prison in Zagreb in April.
7 A. Yes, yes, April. You are correct.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly asked not to overlap
9 because of the translation.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I just want to round off this part. So in this period from the
12 20th of May you were in Belgrade. Were you by yourself or were you with
13 your wife?
14 A. I was by myself.
15 Q. And your wife remained in Croatia?
16 A. She stayed in my father's or her father's house in Borovo Selo.
17 THE INTERPRETER: It's not clear what the witness said.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you say that it was your father's or her father's house?
20 A. It was her father's house in Borovo Selo.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Savic, as you are both speaking the same
22 language and that has to be translated, you should try to avoid
23 overlapping. So please wait until you can see that on the screen the
24 translation has finished before you answer the question of Mr. Zivanovic.
25 Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And how long did you stay in Belgrade? Can you please tell me
5 A. [Interpretation] Until October. October or November. When the
6 staff in Sid was established, the Territorial Defence Staff, that's when
7 I transferred to Sid. This was in late October, early November. I don't
8 recall the exact date.
9 Q. And when this Territorial Defence Staff in Sid was formed, you
10 went there, and you slept in Sid practically.
11 A. Yes. I had a friend in the village of Adasevci in front of Sid
12 as you take the highway. That's where I would sleep.
13 Q. And in your answer to a question by the Prosecutor, you said that
14 for a while you were in Lovas. Can you just tell us when it was exactly
15 that you were staying in Lovas? When did you leave Sid and go to Lovas?
16 A. Well, I can't really give you the dates, but when the Tovarnik,
17 the action in Tovarnik and Lovas stopped, when the combat actions in that
18 area stopped, that's when I went to Lovas.
19 Q. If these dates are correct or the approximate time periods,
20 October, November, that means that you went to Lovas after staying in Sid
21 or in this village of Adasevci for a while; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, yes. Afterwards.
23 Q. And think that you said that you stayed in Lovas until Vukovar
24 was liberated, when you returned to your house.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you please tell me, Mr. Savic, before you joined the
2 Serbian Democratic Party, you were a member of the League of Communists
3 of Croatia?
4 A. Yes, just like the majority of people were.
5 Q. Are you able to tell me why you decided to leave the League of
6 Communists of Croatia and join the Serbian Democratic Party?
7 A. Well, in a single-party system, everyone is a member of the
8 party. That applies to the League of Communists as well. And the main
9 reason is the membership fee, the membership dues. My ideological
10 leanings are not of Communist type. Even in my last term of office,
11 actually, I was at the post of the secretary of the local organisation.
12 When I was appointed secretary of the local organisation, and when I was
13 supposed to give a speech, I said something to this effect: Evidently,
14 the party has reached an end, because a term of office was given to me.
15 That seems to be the end of the party. And I will not regret being the
16 person to dig a grave for the party. So then the other members wanted me
17 to face disciplinary proceedings, and then I said I didn't know of any
18 secretary who had sent himself for a disciplinary procedure.
19 What am I trying to say? For ten years there had been a general
20 crisis in the state, a crisis of Communism, actually. The party had used
21 up all of its credits. It had to hand over power, and it was the most
22 difficult thing for them to do, to hand over or to give up their power.
23 So it was evident that there would be turbulent changes, especially
24 because after the elections in Croatia where the Party of Democratic
25 Action, actually the League of Communists changed its name to the Party
1 of Democratic Changes, party the SDP, and they got the vote of all the
2 Serbs in the elections and then simply left them high and dry. The Serbs
3 were no longer necessary following the elections in a multi-party system.
4 The Serbian Democratic Party was established in Knin. It won seats in
5 the parliament. It became a parliamentary party. Its area of activity
6 was the Republic of Croatia, and in some estimate of mine it seemed
7 logical that we would need to join in these activities. So this is the
8 only reason. There was no major sadness or regret at leaving the
9 League of Communists of Yugoslavia, no.
10 Q. Well, one thing is odd in this answer of yours. If you were not
11 a person with Communist convictions, why did you have to join the party
12 at all?
13 A. Well, because of the membership dues. Like I said, the party
14 exerts pressure on you to join, because they want you to pay the
15 membership dues. So it wasn't even complicated to join the party. You
16 could do that on the spot in the course of a day, so ...
17 Q. And did that bring any privileges with it perhaps?
18 A. Well, the privileges went to the political establishment. I was
19 working. I didn't have any political ambitions, and I didn't expect any
20 privileges that would come to me from the party, no.
21 Q. But the fact that you accepted to become secretary of the party
22 organisation, I mean, that is an official function after all,
23 particularly in a situation where you don't share those convictions. But
24 on the other hand, would that give you some privileges? Did party
25 secretaries receive any privileges from the Communist Party?
1 A. Well, the party disappeared silently. It was no longer there.
2 After the elections, the party just disappeared from view.
3 Q. Well, I'm saying this because I understood from your answer that
4 the party changed its name and that it was called the
5 League of Communists of Croatia Party of Democratic Changes. So it
6 didn't disappear. It stayed, but it had a modified platform and a
7 different name?
8 A. After the election and the election of the new municipal
9 leadership, the president of the municipality was Slavko Dokmanovic.
10 Slavko Dokmanovic was my colleague who also worked in the Vupik
11 enterprise. I tried to provide a kind of guideline to Slavko Dokmanovic
12 so that his direction of activity would be Zagreb, because a lot of
13 information was already coming from Belgrade data of the intelligence
14 type and so on, but he told me, Nobody wants to receive me in Zagreb. I
15 tried through one of my friends who was a representative in the Croatian
16 Assembly from our list from Vukovar to try to see with Racan whether it
17 was possible for someone to receive him, and he literally told him -- he
18 told me, I went to see Racan. He's making some sort of calculation with
19 4 million German marks in order to purchase mortars and he said he
20 doesn't want to talk to me.
21 Well, the Communists in any case tacitly transferred their power
22 to the HDZ, and this changeover of power was very quick and very quiet.
23 Q. In 1989 or in 1990, but I think that it was in 1989, the
24 multi-party system was introduced in Croatia, so there were a lot of
25 parties. Can you please tell me why was it that you chose the
1 Serbian Democratic Party in particular?
2 A. Well, I explained a little bit before what the position of Serbs
3 in Croatia was, especially after the decision to embark on multi-party
4 elections and after the HDZ became active. The party began to spread a
5 very unfavourable climate. There was a lot of fear. They publicly
6 attacked Serbs, and that was the only topic that mobilised the party in
7 the elections that it was participating in. And so when it became an
8 open fear that the Serbs, and it would be -- was quite normal to try to
9 encourage people to get out of the blockade and to try to start thinking
10 in a different way. So I cannot go for the Croatian parties when -- when
11 they don't need me. Perhaps in some normal circumstances that would be
12 possible. I mean, if somebody tells you, I don't need you. You don't
13 need to bother with me, why would I offer myself up to them? So then the
14 natural choice in that situation seemed to be the
15 Serbian Democratic Party.
16 Q. You said, I think at pages 16 and 17 of today's LiveNote, that
17 you spoke to about 300 or 400 people, that there was fear among them,
18 that they were afraid of political involvement with the
19 Serbian Democratic Party, I assume you meant.
20 I would like to ask you the following question: Who were they
21 really afraid of, or what were they afraid of?
22 A. I believe that I've shared that with you already. There was a
23 large-scale attack on Serbs by the political leaders of the states.
24 People somehow believed that by not becoming involved, by doing nothing,
25 they would be best protected and eventually saved. It was very difficult
1 to convince people that what was being said was actually true and that
2 these actions would be taken, although just to be perfectly clear about
3 this, I fully understood the strategy of the Croatian Democratic Party,
4 the period that was defined as Croatia's silence, which was roughly the
5 same time as the happening of the people in Serbia, as they called it.
6 This was an interesting moment in time, because Croatia as a
7 country defined its political objective and its general direction for the
8 future, and they said this in no uncertain terms. It's not something
9 they were trying to conceal. They received international support for
10 their goals. They publicly spoke about the fact that they enjoyed the
11 support for their future actions.
12 Those of us living alongside Croats were fully aware of this. We
13 all knew that the Croats wanted an independent state, an independent
14 country, which as a desire was something that I viewed as natural, and I
15 respected that. I said so many times that we were told this in public,
16 so many times, which I appreciated. The only thing I didn't appreciate
17 is those who said they would be standing up for me, defending me. Now,
18 that was something that I couldn't understand. Why would someone defend
19 me and protect me when I needed no defending or protecting. So it was
20 the defenders who actually played a much more prominent role in this than
21 the Croats.
22 Now, we the Serbs, and this is why I fail to understand the
23 policies pursued by Belgrade, the Serbs failed to capture this moment of
24 social change. In a democracy, what really matters is the numbers. They
25 were the largest single group in Yugoslavia, and obviously they would
1 lead any changes, and obviously they would have been the first to
2 organise elections. Why weren't they in pure historical terms? Well
3 that's a different matter altogether, isn't it?
4 Q. But that is beyond the scope of my question.
5 A. Yes. I'm just trying to explain.
6 Q. In your statement to the OTP in 2003, you spoke in detail about
7 these attacks on Serbs. You said that after the 2nd of May and what
8 happened at Borovo Selo, these attacks became more intense. We have
9 information suggesting that Serbs were being fired from their jobs
10 throughout the area, and I think you said that too. Some were even
11 killed, some were threatened, and so on and so forth. Was that the
12 reason that the people you spoke to, the 3- or 400 persons that you
13 mentioned were afraid to get politically involved?
14 A. Yes, absolutely, an enormous fear.
15 Q. The Prosecutor showed you some video footage today, and you were
16 asked about the concept of Ustasha. I know that your family were not in
17 Croatia during the war, and I know that that is not where you hail from
18 originally, but we have information suggesting that among the people who
19 were living there, there were many persons who had very unfortunate
20 memories of that time. I'm talking about World War II, people whose
21 families had been killed by the Ustasha during World War II. I'm sure
22 you've heard of these instances as well, haven't you?
23 A. Yes, yes. That is certainly true, but I would like to explain
24 something else. That period was never sufficiently clarified.
25 Q. Yes, but I'd rather we just don't go into that now. We don't
1 want to be explaining this now.
2 A. Yes, but this is something that is abused, so we're looking at an
3 abuse here.
4 Q. Likewise, we heard about people who survived, but they still had
5 these unpleasant memories about the fates met by their families, and our
6 people were wary of this emerging Independent State of Croatia, lest
7 something might happen again, the same sort of thing that happened back
8 in World War II. Did you ever come across people feeling that way?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I did, and I said so, didn't I.
10 Q. You know that between the two wars, during that time there were
11 some Ustasha organisations, not in Yugoslavia, abroad for the most part.
12 But are you aware that in 1989 or 1990, some members of those
13 organisations arrived back in Croatia and began to organise themselves?
14 A. Yes, but the Communists were still in power at the time; right?
15 Q. Yes. That's what I'm talking about.
16 A. Yes. The borders were opened up, and all those who wished to go
17 back were free to do so. That's what the propaganda was like at the
18 time. That's true.
19 Q. So we may therefore conclude that groups like that existed in
20 Croatia at the time, didn't they?
21 A. Yes, but nobody was even trying to conceal their existence.
22 Everyone knew that those people were there.
23 Q. The Ustasha groups, is that who you mean?
24 A. Well, let me tell you, all the immigrants come back were labelled
25 as Ustasha.
1 Q. May I just --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you trying to control the witness?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Sorry.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. There's something else that I would like to ask you. I know that
7 not everyone, not every person who had gone on aboard was an Ustasha and
8 whoever said this was the case was certainly wrong. That is most
9 certainly not the case, but my question is very specific. I'm talking
10 about 1989, 1990. Were there any Ustasha groups in Croatia? I'm talking
11 about groups. I'm not saying that everyone who moved back to Croatia
12 from somewhere else abroad was automatically an Ustasha. I'm asking you
13 about the existence of any groups like that.
14 A. People who had previously lived abroad for a long time were now
15 returning, those who wished to return and those who had good reason for
16 returning. Were they members of a Ustasha organisation or not is not
17 something I can say. When we are talking about immigrants, then let's
18 cover the whole category. Some people came back of their own free will,
19 some were duped into going back, but I think, yes, it would be logical to
20 see the whole thing in terms of people going back, those who wished to go
21 back and were now finally free to go back.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I hesitate to rise, but this has
24 been happening for the second time now. I think we should be very
25 careful when putting questions to the witness not to give evidence. It
1 is all right to put questions, but comments such as, People were most
2 certainly wrong about this or that position, I think -- I would advise
3 that counsel be careful about not putting his side of the story but
4 putting questions to the witness rather than giving evidence.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that I could put the leading question to
6 the witness, and I could lead him in cross-examination.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So I wasn't talking about emigres here. You were living in
10 Croatia at the time, and you would have been able to tell. Is that what
11 people said publicly? Were any rallies like that held? That's what my
12 question was about, about the nature of any rallies. I'm not asking you
13 whether somebody who attended a meeting came from abroad or not.
14 A. Yes, that was my understanding of your question, and that's what
15 determined my answer, but coast was now clear for any organisations that
16 wished to start operating. That much is certain.
17 Q. You've just explained that in your understanding the Serbian
18 Democratic Party was operating in Croatia and that was the way it should
19 be. So it should look to Zagreb. Based on your statement, I see that
20 sometime in May 1990, you went to Belgrade to be there for the meeting at
21 which the Serbian Democratic Party was established in Belgrade, so I'm
22 wondering about this opinion of yours. Does this opinion go back to that
23 time or did you form that opinion at later stage?
24 A. I'm talking about the Serbian Democratic Party in Knin. It was
25 under the control of the State Security Service in Serbia. The setting
1 up of the board in Belgrade was interpreted as an activity performed by
2 people from the area of Knin, Dalmacija, Lika, and so on and so forth,
3 but living in Belgrade. So that's who the border's being set up for.
4 Q. There's something else that I'd like to know. At the time
5 Yugoslavia was a single country. I don't know if there were any
6 restrictions to the effect that a political party was only allowed to
7 operate in a certain area and not throughout the former country. Hence
8 my question, I assume the meeting in Belgrade was perfectly legal and the
9 Party of Democratic Action was free to set up its own boards wherever it
10 chose to, the same thing that applied to the work of any other political
11 party at the time. Wasn't that the case, sir?
12 A. We know what the platform was and that's what I'm telling you.
13 As long as Yugoslavia was single and intact -- there are different
14 interpretations of that to begin with. But it would have been pointless
15 to get Yugoslavia involved. I'm talking about our side, the
16 Serbian Democratic Party. Each newly founded political party has its own
17 territory and ground that it covers. Is that not right?
18 Q. Did you actually say that at the meeting of the Serbian
19 Democratic Party in Belgrade when the Serbia board was established? Did
20 you stand up? Did you speak up that this wasn't right, that this wasn't
21 the way it should be, that the Serbian Democratic Party should only
22 operate in Croatia and that it wasn't right for its board to be
23 established in Belgrade of all places?
24 A. I was there as an observer. I had no right to take part in the
25 actual work of the meeting. They followed an agenda with speakers on it,
1 and they had all these things that they would do, but I had no right to
2 be involved in the discussion of that meeting, and that's not what I was
3 after anyway. What I was after was meeting up with Raskovic in order
4 talk to him and see if there was anything that we could do together to
5 enhance the work of our party in Slavonia.
6 Q. Was that the first time you met Raskovic?
7 A. Yes, that was the first time.
8 Q. You knew that on the 17th of February that same year, the
9 Serbian Democratic Party had been established in Knin and that he was its
10 president, did you not?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. You knew that party's platform, did you not?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And you told him at the time that you wanted a board established
15 in Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, did you not?
16 A. Yes, Slavonia and Baranja. The term "Western Srem" was only
17 mentioned later on, but during our original conversation, we talked about
18 Slavonia and Baranja.
19 Q. Do you know one thing about the platform of the
20 Serbian Democratic Party? Among other things, it talks about the
21 establishment of territorial autonomy. Should that be the option chosen
22 by the population at a referendum?
23 A. I said that all these things about autonomy had to do with how
24 things went elsewhere in Yugoslavia. Would Croatia emerge as an
25 independent country? Would there now be a confederation or a different
1 form of organisation? So the autonomy issue and the right to autonomy
2 very much hinged on these other contiguous developments.
3 Q. Are you aware of a political motto held by Raskovic at the time?
4 He said the number of Serbs in Croatia should be the same as the number
5 of Croats in Yugoslavia.
6 A. I can't remember that. It's not a platform. It's probably
7 something that he said at a rally.
8 Q. Yes, but I believe this was misinterpreted. My question was
9 misinterpreted, hence I'll repeat it. Raskovic's motto was Serbs should
10 be in Croatia to the same extent that Croatia is in Yugoslavia.
11 A. I think this is probably something that he exclaimed at a public
12 rally or something like that. It wasn't a proper political platform.
13 But there's one thing I would like to add if I may. We are in no
14 position to impose an ultimatum on Croatia. Croatia as a country had its
15 own constitution, its own laws, and it was supposed to make room for
16 others too. If it denied some political rights to the Serbs, then they
17 had to include the Serbs in some other category. Okay. So ethnic
18 minority was the category chosen. The status of an ethnic minority might
19 be debatable, but amid all the chaos that reigned at the time, it was the
20 way in which this was done that was perceived as particularly
21 humiliating. Nevertheless, the times being what they were, there was
22 nothing much you could do about it. You had to wait for the whole thing
23 to calm down a little, and we had to wait for a better moment, a better
24 time to discuss these things in circumstances that were back to normal.
25 That's why we were in no position to impose an ultimatum on Croatia as a
1 country. This is how you see us, so this is what we'll do back to you.
2 No, that was impossible.
3 Q. Can you just tell me this, please: What do you mean when you say
4 when better times come, a better moment? That's what you said, something
5 to that effect, better circumstances. Which circumstances would that be,
6 because on one hand you have Croatia seeking independence, secession from
7 Yugoslavia. On the other hand, you have Serbs in Croatia who don't want
8 that. So what would be these better times that were supposed to come?
9 A. Sir, there was a clash between two concepts and between two types
10 of people, those who saw a solution of that chaotic situation within a
11 legal framework and those who saw that solution through the use of any
12 type of ammunition, as powerful as possible. That would be it put
13 simply. That's what the conflict was about. That's what everything
14 resolved around. But in a situation that was so chaotic, for you to
15 define your political goals and your rights was impossible.
16 Our position should have been to work to reach a legal framework.
17 Of course the Serbs did not accept the state as it was. They had their
18 rights. They had their property within their own state, so who was
19 saying that they were not wanted in at that state? First of all, let's
20 see that.
21 Q. Are you trying to say the following: That there was a problem,
22 that the problem should have been resolved through legal means but that
23 there were people who were misusing that? Are you saying that?
24 A. Well, also the separation within the state should have been
25 resolved by legal means, because in a -- in a situation where a state is
1 trying to split up, there are no legal solutions for such a problem.
2 Q. Just one more question before the break. Are you aware that in a
3 referendum the Serbs voiced their position on the secession of Croatia
4 from Yugoslavia?
5 A. Well, I implemented that referendum in Vukovar. In the building,
6 in the office in the centre of town was where that referendum was
8 Q. Well, this is not what I was asking you.
9 A. Well, I will tell you now. I simply have no confidence in
10 referendums whose results are 98 or 99 per cent in favour. That would be
11 my answer to your question.
12 Who initiated the whole holding of the referendum, and why was
13 this done? In any case, we did a hundred crazy tasks which were imposed
14 on us regarding political rights.
15 Q. Well, can you just tell me this: You have already said that you
16 voiced your distrust in relation to such a referendum.
17 A. Absolutely.
18 Q. The one that was implemented by the Serbian Democratic Party.
19 A. Well, can you -- yes, yes. I'm just going to tell you one more
21 Q. Just one more question and then we will finish before the break.
22 And you, at that time, did not leave the Serbian Democratic Party even
23 though in a way you knew and you asserted that this referendum was not
24 proper, that the results of the referendum were not accurate?
25 A. I'm not a person who gives up. I just follow the manipulation as
1 it develops, and I'm aware of the manipulation that somebody would impose
2 on me, but I have to do something.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We can have a break, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Mr. Savic, we will take the second break
5 now and come back at 5.15. You will be escorted out of the courtroom
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 4.47 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 5.17 p.m.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: While the -- while the witness is brought in --
12 while the witness is brought in, we have a short oral ruling to put on
13 the record. It's about joint motion seeking admission of agreed
15 On the 19th of October, 2012, the Prosecution and the Defence
16 filed a joint motion seeking admission of 56 documents. One document
17 designed as Rule -- designated - sorry - as Rule 65 ter number 00809 has
18 already been admitted as Exhibit L3. The Chamber finds that the
19 remaining documents are relevant and have probative value and shall be
20 admitted and marked. The Registry is directed to assign exhibit numbers
21 beginning with P and L as outlined in the motion.
22 The Chamber notes that there was a typographical error in Annex A
23 to the motion and the document listed as ordinal number 12 should have
24 Rule 65 ter 00358.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savic, I wanted to put one more question to
4 you about your stay in Serbia after the 2nd of May, 1991. Are you able
5 to tell me what you did when you were in Odzaci? What were you doing?
6 What were you busy with?
7 A. Bosko Perosevic was the president of the municipality in Odzaci.
8 We knew one another. We tried to organise assistance for the refugees,
9 and in co-operation with him and Brana Crncevic, that's what I did.
10 Q. And what did this assistance or aid comprise? Specifically, what
11 is it that you did?
12 A. Well, I was trying to bring in medicines. Look, everybody knew
13 me. I received a truck full of medicines from the Sabac pharmaceutical
14 industry, for example. There was help from the municipality of Zrenjanin
15 and other neighbouring municipalities. And then we transferred that
16 across to Borovo, and since we had medical solutions from Sabac, we would
17 provide the hospitals along -- that to the hospitals by the -- using the
18 Danube River. This is more or less what I did.
19 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you were collecting medicines
20 and other types of assistance in Serbia and then you were sending it to
21 Borovo and other parts of Croatia.
22 A. Also, we were sending it to centres that were receiving refugees.
23 For example, there was certain schools along the Danube River bank where
24 they were receiving refugees. For example, there was a location in
25 Vajska, and we gave this help there.
1 Q. On the 2nd of May, 1991, when you went there, I don't think that
2 there were any refugees in Serbia. The war hadn't started then.
3 A. They had already starting appearing after the 2nd of May. We had
4 a ferry in Borovo Selo, something that I arranged with Novakovic, because
5 there they were working with small boats, but we obtained a proper ferry,
6 and the wave of refugees already was beginning to cross over the Danube.
7 Q. And what was your reason to move to Belgrade? I think you said
8 that you went there sometime in June or after the 20th of May.
9 A. Because I didn't feel safe, personally, in Odzaci. One morning
10 at approximately 7.00 a.m. somebody began to knock on my door. My
11 neighbour said, You left your car. You parked it and it was in the way.
12 But when I come to the building, I always park in a place where I don't
13 bother anyone.
14 I let the water run in the toilet in the bathroom, and I said,
15 I'm having a shower. I will come down shortly, come downstairs. And I
16 took a shower, I got my things, and after a certain period of time I went
17 out, went to my car, and I went to Belgrade.
18 Q. And so you didn't go back there to sleep, did you?
19 A. Yes, that's right, I didn't.
20 Q. And this thing that your neighbour said, you took that as some
21 sort of threat against you; is that right?
22 A. Yes, yes, I did. I had very, very sharp instincts.
23 Q. On three occasions in your statement, and you didn't mention
24 this, but in your statement you mention three times that you were
25 supposed to be killed. I can read that part of your statement back to
1 you. This is paragraph 171. You said that this happened that day when a
2 body -- when the body of Vukasin Soskocanin was taken out of the
3 Danube River, and you said that this was ordered by Milosevic, that this
4 Kertes was supposed to carry this out and that Ljubo Novakovic was an
5 accomplice in all of this. Well, we know who Milosevic is, but can you
6 explain to us what Kertes was doing? Who was he at that time?
7 A. Kertes was always God. He was a man who was a close associate of
8 Slobodan Milosevic. He was involved in everything that had to do with
9 personnel policy in the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. He
10 was involved in all issues of any kind of assistance whatsoever, and he
11 controlled that area, simply speaking.
12 Q. I have information that at that time he was assistant of the
13 federal minister of the interior. Do you agree with me?
14 A. Yes, yes. I agree. It's quite possible.
15 Q. And Ljubo Novakovic, who was that?
16 A. Ljubo Novakovic was the president of the Backa Palanka
17 municipality. To us the municipality was a place to meet. Goran would
18 stop by there, Vukasin. Everybody from the area would come by. That's
19 where our meeting place was.
20 Q. And you managed to avoid this because you didn't go to the bank
21 of the Danube River, which you said in your statement. Instead you went
22 to Odzaci; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So if you can explain to me how do you explain the fact that such
25 powerful people at the time, Milosevic as the president of the state at
1 the time, Kertes's assistant, Ministry of the Interior and as you said
2 God for that area, do not carry out what was planned, this alleged murder
3 against you and that you managed just to evade that by going away and
4 leaving, going some 10 kilometres farther?
5 A. I always had more information. The way in which
6 Vukasin Soskocanin was liquidated was something that I was familiar with.
7 I know that the divers attached him to a -- a piece of wood, a log, and
8 he could not float up. So at a meeting that Kertes was presiding over,
9 he asked me to give my support to him, because there were about 50 people
10 from that area. They were talking about arms sales and for this to be
11 settled. At the beginning of the meeting, Trifun Ivkovic came in from
12 Sremska Mitrovica he was, and I don't need to repeat what is in my
13 statement. Trifun Ivkovic is a major provocateur, and you always have to
14 analyse the things he says and does between the lines. The fact is that
15 I didn't want to be a president, and I didn't want to be involved in
16 anything. And then he asked the question, Why is Goran the president
17 when we agreed that it should be Boro? In the meantime Ljuba Novakovic
18 brought a paper to me on which it said that near Novo Selo, this is a
19 village right on the bank of the Danube River, a body has floated up, and
20 so that I should go and see to check if that's Vukasin Soskocanin. So
21 what would you think after something like that? I told Kertes, All
22 right. I'm leaving now. And I told Ljuba, I don't have a car. And he
23 said, Well, my driver will take you. And so when we set off, I told him,
24 You drive me to Odzaci. And the police was already there on the left
25 bank of the Danube, and the executors of the act were together with the
2 I am not guessing, but that is the way. This is how they get rid
3 of people. Why would I go and check something that I know for a fact was
4 impossible? Well, that's my conclusion.
5 Q. This is the first time you mentioned the fact that the
6 perpetrators were there on the riverbank. The perpetrators of what
8 A. The perpetrators or the executors of death penalties. It wasn't
9 about swimming, that's for sure.
10 Q. In other words, you have been sentenced to death by someone from
11 that group you refer to. Okay. And now these people are here, and they
12 are supposed to execute your sentence. Is that what you're talking about
13 when you say "perpetrators"?
14 Mr. Savic, you were driven to Odzaci by Ljubo Novakovic's driver;
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. He probably said where he drove you to.
18 A. Yes. I told him to say that, Tell Ljubo that you dropped me off
19 at Odzaci.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, if you would allow -- you seemed
21 to ask the witness:
22 "In other words, you have been sentenced to death by someone from
23 that group you refer to. Okay. And now these people are here and they
24 are supposed to execute you -- your sentence. Is that what you're
25 talking about when you say 'perpetrators?'"
1 And then without asking for -- without waiting for an answer, you
2 go about:
3 "Where you were driven to Odzaci by Novakovic's driver; right?"
4 So now I'm -- aren't we missing something here?
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: When you say:
7 "In other words, you have been sentenced to death," do you mean
8 the witness or do you mean a person in general?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I mean about the witness.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That the witness was sentenced to death. It was
12 his testimony as far as I --
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- understood.
15 Q. [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question: Did you say that you
16 were, as a matter of fact, sentenced to death?
17 A. Yes. That's my assessment, which I believe to be correct, and
18 that's what I said.
19 Q. And these perpetrators were there in order to execute you, to
20 carry out this death sentence?
21 A. We'd be speculating, wouldn't we. But why else would they want
22 me to go to the riverbank? Listen, I'm not paranoid. My anti-war
23 activity was very unpopular. Even the government -- when the government
24 was set up for Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, they banned [Realtime
25 transcript read in error "banded"] all of their members from talking to
1 me. I knew what this was about, and this wasn't the first time I faced a
2 situation like that, starting with Plitvice and you can take it from
4 Q. This is precisely what I wanted to ask you. How do you explain
5 the fact that these perpetrators were there to carry out your own death
6 sentence on the banks of the Danube. How come they didn't drive over to
7 Odzaci later on, because they knew that you were there. It's a well
8 known fact. It was known to Ljubo Novakovic, for example, who you define
9 as one of the people involved, an accomplice.
10 A. This was still not a time of large-scale executions, which is
11 what came later on as the conflict escalated. It's about taking
12 advantage of someone's gullibility, getting that person killed as
13 smoothly and as trouble free as possible. I can tell you how they
14 liquidated Soskocanin. It is not a subject that is unfamiliar to me.
15 It's not something that I couldn't cope with.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have a small intervention for the transcript,
17 Mr. Zivanovic. At page 73, line 6, when the witness says, "when the
18 government was set up for Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, they
19 banned," I think the word "banned" is misspelled there. I just wanted to
20 put that on the record.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you. Thank you to my learned friend.
22 Q. [Interpretation] You said that you were banned or forbidden in
23 terms of communicating with the members of the government. It's about
24 the interpretation. That's why I'm asking.
25 A. Yes, I was banned.
1 Q. Now that we have come to that, in paragraph 191 of your
2 statement, and if that's required, I can always go back to the original
3 text if you want me to. You can see it on your screen too. It's 5868.
4 You said you were on a list of persons to be killed. This was
5 ordered by the service, and the government members were banned from
6 contacting you.
7 A. A list. Okay. I did not see a list. Banned from contacting me,
8 that's what the government members themselves told me, you see. The way
9 in which persons were selected to be liquidated, I don't know. Maybe
10 that too is an interpretation matter. So -- list. I wouldn't say me, a
11 list, no. But it's a fact that all those who opposed the way in which
12 the area was operating - I'm talking about Slavonia, Baranja and
13 Western Srem and the area right across the Danube - all those were
14 undesirable in terms of staying there. They didn't want them there any
15 more. That's a fact.
16 Q. But at the time you weren't in the area, were you, when the
17 government was set up, if I understand you correctly.
18 A. Everybody in that area knows me. It doesn't matter if I'm
19 physically there at a certain point in time or not. Do you understand
20 that? I had lots of contacts with people from across the river starting
21 with the municipal presidents, Backa Palanka, Sombor, factory managers,
22 doctors, lawyers. I would practice once a month. We would meet at
23 Banja Junakovic more often than not. And then we would meet there, then
24 I would explain to them at these meetings how they could best help us.
25 So I was co-ordinating. This was about co-ordinating different tasks.
1 So to come back to this, it's an area in which I'm a familiar
2 face. In anybody wants to know anything, if there's anything they need
3 to raise, they get in touch with me. They ask the question. As for me
4 physically staying in that area, because this is what I'm talking about,
5 and where else should I go after all?
6 Q. You said the government members told you that any contact with
7 you was banned. Can you specify which government members told you that?
8 A. Bogdan Vorkapic was one of them. I think he was the economy
9 minister, something like that. Milos Vojnovic was another. He was the
10 justice minister. He was a nice lad. Our relations were great. And
11 that's all I remember. But I don't think it takes more people than that.
12 It's quite enough if one person says it. I hadn't even known about this,
13 but I met Bogdan Vorkapic in Belgrade at Terazije. I was about to ask
14 him a question and there he was running away from me and I said, Bogdan,
15 hold it right there. I want to ask you a question. And he says
16 literally, Listen, I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to talk to you. It's
17 not that I was necessarily greatly taken aback by this. I said, Okay.
18 Fine. Let it be, if that's the way it is. It's not that I was pressing
19 him or anything. I wasn't actively seeking contact anymore after that.
20 Q. He and this other man, Vojnovic, did they perhaps tell you that
21 your name was marked for liquidation, that the service ordered your
22 killing, in other words?
23 A. No. Why would I ask them such a question? And it's not really
24 something that they would have been told anyway. They are just doing
25 their jobs, and this is something external. It was extraneous to their
2 Q. So who was it that told you about the fact the service had
3 ordered you to be killed?
4 A. Well, I told you my instincts were alive and well. It's not that
5 I went rummaging about or asking questions, you see. I wasn't nosing
6 around. It was just the general impression I got based on my contacts
7 with different people. I knew how far I was allowed to go, but there is
8 no need to insist on this point. There's no need to push this point.
9 It's just something that my instinct told me, and I tried to steer clear.
10 This was nothing that stood out at the time, nothing particularly
12 Q. In paragraph 180, of your statement, you also say that you were
13 informed in July 1991 by Djordje Bozovic, also known as Giska --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, just in case you're moving to
15 another topic, we have heard several times that the discussion was about
16 the service, the service having ordered this, and having banned -- I
17 suppose, banned the witness as well. Could we clarify with the witness
18 which service we are talking about just for the record.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I will, Mr. President. Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savic, you make numerous references also in
21 the paragraph that I just mentioned and elsewhere in your statement to
22 "the service." Could you please be more specific about what this means.
23 What do you mean by "the service"? What is the context for that
24 particular usage?
25 A. Well, the only service that I could possibly mean in this context
1 were that being the State Security Service.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: The State Security Service of?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbia. That's what we're talking
4 about, aren't we?
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Paragraph 180 of your statement, you say that in July 1991,
8 Djordje Bozovic, also known as Giska, offered to help you if you ever
9 felt threatened in Belgrade, and then one night he warned you that you
10 should escape because there were threats coming from Hadzic, he
11 suggested, but your take on it was that the threats actually originated
12 from Knin, the people in Knin. So the first thing that I wish to
13 clarify, if you look at this paragraph, you'll see a reference there to a
14 man named Borcevic. Is that the same person or is this a typing mistake?
15 A. Djordje Bozovic. I think that's who we're talking about.
16 Q. So that's the same person, Djordje Bozovic?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Did that person perhaps tell you anything about why you were
19 encountering these difficulties, why you were receiving threats?
20 A. Giska was the commander of the volunteer brigade belonging to the
21 SPO. He was one of the state perpetrators, so to speak, as well as
22 Arkan, Martic, and the others. I asked him why he wasn't with Arkan.
23 Since they had this guard, why wasn't he with them. And he said, They're
24 all Communists over there, and I had no business being with then.
25 When I came to Belgrade after Plitvice, I told you about my
1 instinct; right? I have feelings, you know. I know that the way I
2 pursued my own peace mission was at odds with the historical moment. So
3 I pleaded with him. I said, You're moving about in these circles. I
4 have to tell you, I'm not feeling particularly safe in Belgrade. I don't
5 have anybody in particular that I can name, but I assume we're talking
6 about a certain type of people who are in the know, you know, and they
7 exchange a lot of info. So you see, you're actually the only guy around
8 here that I trust so I'm telling you this. Just let me know. No need to
9 ask any further. Everything after that is up to me.
10 I was sleeping at the union, and he came about 10.00. He said,
11 Listen, bro, because that's how we talked to each other, he said, Get up.
12 Get ready to leave. You've got to be off this very minute.
13 Do you want me to go on or -- so I said to him, Who is this from?
14 He said, Goran. And I said, Well, you know what? I don't buy it for a
15 minute. It's not Goran, but okay. There are all sorts of people doing
16 all sorts of things here, but all I can do is the next morning first
17 thing I'll check what this is about. And he said, I'll stay with you
18 till next morning, and we did, as a matter of fact.
19 I left for Matica that morning to see Brana Crncevic.
20 Brana Crncevic and I were sitting in the same office. Actually, I was
21 sitting in his office. And I said, Could you please call Radmilo. I
22 want to talk to him. So Radmilo showed up in no time at all. The
23 shortest time possible it would have taken him to get there from the
24 government building. So he realised that we knew each other. So this
25 was a man I trusted and there was nothing I couldn't share with him.
1 So we greeted each other and he said, Well, where have you been?
2 What's up? And I said, Listen, aren't you surprised to see me still
3 alive, and he said, Well, what on earth do you mean? And then I told him
4 the whole story about what transpired and then he said, I know nothing
5 about that. I really can't confirm. Be that as it may, if there's
6 anything that needs doing, I'll give you hand.
7 So that was that. And then I told him, Listen, I have three
8 lawyers in Belgrade. I have left my materials and documents evenly
9 distributed with these three. So no matter who ends up being the one
10 doing it, these lawyers have my permission to use these materials and
11 actually publish them.
12 So that's how the whole thing ended in the roughest of terms.
13 Q. Well, you mentioned this material. Can you please tell me
14 whether the material refers specifically to these events which could then
15 present some sort of danger to you? Is that something that happened in
16 1990 or 1991?
17 A. Well, it's just a bluff. There was no material at all. However,
18 in that situation, you know what it means to publish something. And even
19 if you say that you have something, people think that you do have it, you
20 know? So, well, you know, there's a saying that depending on the market,
21 the goods are like that.
22 Q. So in this period from the 2nd of May until June, your life was
23 in danger, you're saying, from members of the security service. Is that
24 what you're saying? Am I correct?
25 A. Yes. Let's assume that. Actually, I assumed that. I don't know
1 as to what sort of service it was. I mean, there were many of those who
2 were there for liquidations. I mean, there were some informal
3 condemnations to death, not just from the service.
4 Q. And the reasons for that were your political beliefs or your
5 opposition at the time to the policies that were implemented in
6 Yugoslavia or Serbia?
7 A. Well, I was spreading anti-war ideas, and would I always say that
8 the Croats have the right to do what they're doing, and then they would
9 say, Well, what are you talking about the Croats? And I would say,
10 Well, they have the right to do that. Why are you bothering me with
11 Croats and it's a fact that we're there and we're not in Croatia. Why
12 don't you clean up your own house first? That was more or less what I
13 said. I'm not somebody who would keep quiet. I would tend to provoke
14 discussions from -- with people. So that's what the discussion and the
15 stories were about.
16 Q. Mr. Savic, you know that in 1991, there were many opponents of
17 Slobodan Milosevic's policies; right?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. You know that on the 9th of March, 1991, there were major
20 demonstrations which were attended by over 100.000 people?
21 A. But there were many more who respected his policies.
22 Q. You mean at the demonstrations or are you saying generally
24 A. Generally speaking. Those who had power in their hands would
25 determine the direction that things were moving in.
1 Q. I know that in those demonstrations there were many political
2 parties participating from Serbia at the time and these parties had many
3 followers. Are you aware of that?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Can you explain to me? You see, I don't know at that any of the
6 people who took part in the demonstrations, the leaders of those parties,
7 those prominent figures who had a large number of followers. I don't
8 know that any of them were killed either by Milosevic or by any of those
9 secret services. So I wanted to ask you what was your reason for
10 believing that the regime was so angry at you? You didn't have an army
11 behind you or a political party. You didn't have a large number of
12 followers and so on and so forth.
13 A. Well, I don't think that I rated highly enough for something like
14 that, but they did acknowledge that in the area where I worked I did have
15 a certain amount of influence, that I had a large number of people who
16 trusted me to whom I did not lie and with whom I didn't play any
17 politics. In that area, I still have people. Many of my friends paid
18 with their heads because of that. This is why I withdrew, because of the
19 people who trusted me. I told them, Don't touch any of these people any
21 So you cannot really compare the political scene in Belgrade.
22 This is something that is co-ordinated and done. All of those parties at
23 one point in time were in the opposition, and at one point became the
24 organs of power, but they all had the same master. The
25 League of Communists split into a lot of parties, but they did it in such
1 a way that everybody was ours.
2 I mean, if you look at Vuk Draskovic, did he do better because he
3 was just beaten instead of being killed?
4 Q. Well, I'm not going to deal with what you said about Draskovic in
5 any way, but I wanted something else now. You just said that you told
6 someone, Don't touch them. Who did you say this to?
7 A. I said that to Radmilo Bogdanovic at the time when we were
8 sitting at Brana's: Please don't touch people who trust me. I am
9 getting out of all of this. I am not interested in this. You can reach
10 Vienna if you want, wherever you like, but I'm no longer interested in
11 any of this.
12 I always had contacts with whomever I wanted to, and in Belgrade
13 they would always tell me that all the doors were open to me, but I
14 didn't go to any of these doors. You understand.
15 So like I said, I'm not a paranoid person and so on, but it's
16 quite normal in certain circumstances to think about oneself, and this is
17 not something that should dwell on a lot. That's what the circumstances
18 were like at the time. I managed to come out of all of that. This is
19 not some major topic for discussion, you know, but I left Belgrade and
20 went to Sid because it was not safe for me in Belgrade anymore. Then I
21 left Sid, then I went to Lovas because it was not safe for me in Sid
22 anymore. Simply this was my assessment. That's how I was moving, you
24 Q. You said that you spoke with Radmilo Bogdanovic and that you said
25 this to him, not to touch these people who shared your beliefs. Is this
1 something that he was intending to do? Was it your impression that -- I
2 thought that he came to your summons because you felt threatened that
4 A. In any case, Radmilo Bogdanovic was a person whom I trusted. I
5 already said that. So when I tell him something, I expect in view of his
6 range of activities and his people and everything, I tell him so if
7 there's any need for anything further. Let him explain, you understand?
8 I don't think that he's the one doing all of this, and leading in all
9 these matters, but he has a broad circle of people, so it's something
10 that should be put through their ears. I mean, it's not something that
11 was specifically aimed in any way.
12 Q. You told us here that you went to Sid in late October sometime, I
13 think, and that you sheltered in Sid because you felt threatened in
14 Belgrade. Before you left for Sid, did you have any threats or was there
15 any reason for you to feel in danger from anyone or anywhere?
16 A. Matica had a warehouse in Belgrade at the fair where the
17 assistance was collected and passed on. I was working on that, and a lot
18 of our people from the Slavonia area were working there. Since weapons
19 and weaponry was also sent out from that warehouse, I didn't get involved
20 in that. Simply people were doing that. And they, those people who were
21 dealing with that, were in contact with the services, and they would be
22 regularly reporting back to me what was going on, who was coming and
23 going without any major insistence on my part. And at one time I was at
24 the -- in the warehouse and a friend came by and he said, A friend wants
25 to see you. All right. Let's get in the car. We went to the
1 Knez Mihajlova Street. I don't know which number, but it was a different
2 building from the federal SUP building when you enter. Actually, it was
3 the Knez Milosa Street, not the Knez Mihajlova Street. And I went to
4 these premises and colonel, a colonel appeared, Colonel Djokovic, who at
5 the time was the deputy chief of the Military Intelligence Service KOS.
6 It was some sort of stage like that. So we greeted each other. We
7 introduced one -- ourselves and he said, You don't have to say anything
8 to me. I know everything. Meaning we don't have time. There's no time
9 for nothing. And he said, Tell me what you are intending to do. I said,
10 I'm not intending to do anything. I'm waiting for the fighting to stop
11 and then I am going home. And he said, Well, do you know that you cannot
12 go there? You're not allowed to go there. You mustn't go there. I
13 said, Well, all right. Then you know that I will go. If you know that I
14 am not allowed to go there, then you know that I will also go there. And
15 he said to me, Listen, the only thing that I can help you with -- well,
16 do you have any weapons? I said, No, I don't. He said, The only thing I
17 can help you with is to give you weapons. What are you going to do with
18 the weapons? I said, Look, I don't have any weapons. I don't want to
19 have anything to do with that, and if I did receive any weapons it would
20 only be with an accompanying permit. And he said, All right, what do you
21 want? There was a large number of things on offer and I said, All right,
22 just give me a Skorpion. I mean, I didn't know much about it but a
23 Skorpion was a status symbol, so I received this Skorpion. He said,
24 Well, I don't have any ammunition but you can get some at the fair. Take
25 a box. And so what I was supposed to do? They were controlling
1 everything. Was I supposed to ask him what all this was about, what was
2 going on? You understand? General Nenezic, whom I used to visit at his
3 home and we would meet regularly, he always used to say to me, Be
4 careful, you're being followed. He is an old KOS person. He knows all
5 these principles. My car was broken into in front of the Sumatovac. My
6 bag was taken, my files, everything that was in the car. Everything that
7 was inside. So what was I supposed to check further? I don't have time
8 or any need to check anything. I have my own path and I have an instinct
9 that guides me.
10 Q. And when you received this Scorpion you went to Sid?
11 A. After a couple of days. After a couple of days there was
12 something like this that a staff was being formed in Sid and that they
13 were going to commit a massacre, that they were going to push people
14 there to get killed. That was the assessment of General Nenezic. I told
15 him, Listen, I will go to Sid and I came to Sid with only one sole
16 objective and that was to try to prevent some major casualties from
17 occurring or from some put up conflicts or clashes from breaking out.
18 Q. At the time, what was General Nenezic? What was his rank?
19 A. Well, he was retired. He was retired. However, every Friday he
20 would go to see Milosevic. Well, I don't know Milosevic had a couple of
21 these generals in an advisory role. I don't know exactly. Well, for
22 consultations and things like that, and he told me openly, You know this
23 is not some kind of mystique surrounding this whole area. So when
24 this -- when I was there when he would come back from Milosevic, he would
25 call me and then he would tell me everything that was discussed. And on
1 one occasion he came and he told me the Vozd, the ruler is very
2 dissatisfied. The situation is not very good at all and then he
3 mentioned all the problems, the situation, and then he said and I told
4 him that I have a man who can resolve these matters. I'm literally
5 retelling you the conversation between us. There was no influence on my
6 behalf, no urging or anything like that.
7 And then when he asked who, I told him about you, and he just
8 laughed and didn't say anything. And he would always stress to me, I
9 always treat you as my protege but I never push you. It's your decision
10 whether you want to do something or not. So these were my relationships
11 with people.
12 Q. And when did you have this conversation with General Nenezic
13 before you went to Sid?
14 A. Yes, before I went to Sid. I cannot give you an exact date. I
15 simply couldn't remember everything, dates, you know. But this was just
16 before. After that, I went to see General Simovic. Are you interested
17 in --
18 Q. You talked about that in your statement.
19 A. Well, I don't want to take your time, but I can just continue.
20 Q. At the time when you talked with General Nenezic, do you remember
21 how old he was, what is his state of health?
22 A. Well, he was an elderly man. And he wasn't in the best of
23 health. However, he was very down and he was very much affected by the
24 situation. He was very unhappy because of the situation in the region,
25 and he always used to say all the people that I had contacts with, yes,
1 they were members of the party, but they were not Communists. He would
2 always be saying, Why are they still holding on to these Communists?
3 They are an anathema to the whole world but they're still propagating
4 these political beliefs and trying to spread them. This is what he said.
5 Q. When General Nenezic said that in this alleged conversation with
6 Milosevic that he had a person who could resolve the situation and
7 suggested yourself, do you know what he was thinking of? In what way
8 could you resolve the situation? General Nenezic knew some of your
9 positions your views?
10 A. All of them.
11 Q. So are you able to tell us how was it exactly that you were
12 supposed to resolve the situation then in October 1991?
13 A. Then I have to go back to General Simovic and then that would be
14 the answer to this. And then he asked me he said, Do you want to go to
15 General Simovic? The agreement was that he should be in charge of the
16 cadre policy for that area. Of course I cannot refuse him everything. I
17 said, All right, I will, and he was even surprised. And he said, You
18 really want to? I said, Yes, in an hour I'm going to be at
19 General Simovic's.
20 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Why was he surprised?
21 A. Because I never wanted nobody and I never wanted to listen to
22 anybody and he was really pleasantly surprised. And I already told you
23 that in the end I actually agreed to do that only because of him.
24 Q. Just one moment. Since we're already on this topic, in other
25 words, he didn't even expect that you would accept something like that;
1 is that right?
2 A. That's right. I set aside that hour on purpose to prepare the
3 situation at General Simovic's, and I know. I will explain my reasons.
4 So in one hour I was in front of the government building, and I came to
5 General Simovic directly to his desk without any controls. I mean even
6 the door was open.
7 Q. Just for the transcript, could you please tell us what was
8 General Simovic's position at the time?
9 A. He was the defence minister, the minister of defence.
10 Q. Of Serbia or of Yugoslavia?
11 A. Of the FR Yugoslavia, Yugoslavia. But actually he, a sinner,
12 wanted to make a Serbian Army while he was in the post of the minister of
13 defence of the Yugoslavia, but this is a different situation. General
14 Simovic was sitting at his desk surrounded by a lot of papers. There was
15 a conference table behind him of some 10 to 12 chairs and there was a
16 person sitting at the table and he said to me, In 15 minutes I have to
17 send a report to the president, so can you please talk to this man here.
18 I told him, General, sir, I came to talk to you, and if you don't have
19 time, I'm sorry, but I don't have time either. The gentleman who was
20 sitting behind him said to me, How can you be talking to the General like
22 I said, I'm sorry, I was very polite, I don't know what your role
23 is here. He said, Well, I'm his adjutant. I said, I'm sorry, but
24 adjutants are not at my level. And then he said, You think that we don't
25 know what it is that you want. It's all clear to us. I told him, Look,
1 listen --
2 Q. Excuse me for interrupting, but when he said, What it is that you
3 want, did he mean you personally or a group that you were representing?
4 A. He meant me personally. Let me explain. This person was Zvonko,
5 Milosevic's advisor. Milosevic had two advisors. Well, fine leave it
6 be. I'll remember later on. It was a person from Kosovo. And I said to
7 him, You know something? I'm surprised frankly you know what everybody
8 else wants you just don't know what it is you want yourself. So I stood
9 up and left. As simple as that. Having conducted a conversation like
10 that, do you think you can be entirely safe? Secondly, within that one
11 hour that I was there Milosevic had dispatched Zvonko his advisor to be
12 there, and there wasn't much that I could offer. I was always one to
13 offer solutions, but simple ones. It -- it wasn't about any great
14 mysteries, you know. These are matters that could have been resolved
15 after talking for no more than 15 minutes.
16 Q. But could you please share that with us? What exactly did you
17 tell General Nenezic so that he then put your name forward to Milosevic
18 as the man who could take care of the situation?
19 A. It's not that I told him anything. He knew the whole situation.
20 He knew all the people there, what they were doing, where they were
21 going. It's not like he needed me to tell him or indeed to advise him.
22 He was looking into those things. He knew. The KOS has a thousand
23 different services. It's hard to tell them apart. It's hard to know
24 who's doing what. Who knows. But every day the KOS, every morning
25 receives a report from the people out in the field. Colonel Djokovic
1 gets these reports submitted every day, local reports, about certain
2 localities so he reads these and I'm able to guess the actual locations
3 for each and every one of these reports and he said, You're totally
4 insane. How can you know these things? And I said, Well, I know the
5 situation. But one thing that I can tell you is they had all the info.
6 They knew exactly what was going on.
7 Q. It's not information that I had in mind. I was more wondering
8 about the solutions.
9 A. But you're asking me why did he do that and how could he know
10 that. It was based on the information that he had and that's what he
11 based his recommendation on.
12 Q. We'll not discuss this at length because we know about these
13 events at Plitvice. We know about your arrest and Goran Hadzic's arrest
14 on the 1st of March, 1991. We know that the Croatian police gave you
15 very rough treatment, both you and Goran Hadzic, and both of you were
16 actually injured as a result of the treatment you received on the hands
17 of the Croatian police. What I want to know is did you receive any
18 treatment for those injuries?
19 A. We were not arrested at Plitvice. What you call an arrest was
20 not really an arrest. We were ID'd. I told them who we were and what we
21 were doing, and they clearly said to us that we were the target of their
22 attack. I had been listening in on the co-ordination conducted by the
23 police officers on the one hand and the centre on the other, and at one
24 point the centre asked that we should be sent back. It was a decision
25 taken by someone or other, and we said, Okay, let's be off a bit sooner.
1 So this was mistreatment, mistreatment of which I was the target. And
2 Goran Hadzic could tell, because they said, Don't touch this guy, touch
3 the fat one, the other one over there, which I found a bit ridiculous but
4 there you go. I was able to neutralise any consequences of this attack
5 because I was mentally prepared for this you see.
6 All this harassment, all these blows that I received, all I was
7 trying to do was to remain standing and remain conscious. It was -- in
8 the morning it was cold so I was trying to take in as much oxygen as I
9 could with my mouth wide open. So I did all of this preemptively to do
10 what I could to withstand. I survived the mistreatment. Once the
11 peaceful integration had been completed and when doctors arrived at the
12 Vukovar Hospital, I went to see an ear, nose and throat specialist. I
13 had some medical documentation from the military hospital in Belgrade,
14 but I wanted to have something official, black and white, from the
15 Vukovar Hospital as well. There was a young doctor there ear, throat,
16 and nose, he said, Let's take this one step at a time. So he looked at
17 my nose and he said, Jesus Christ what have you been through? And I
18 said, Why? And he said, Everything inside your nose is shattered.
19 Nothing is really in its place. Nothing is where it belongs, and then I
20 explained briefly just to spare him any lengthy explanations whereupon he
21 drew up a two-page report, medical report detailing his medical
22 examination and explaining everything that he found. The next time I was
23 there the doctor was gone and I said what became of that doctor and he
24 said he got a transfer. So I no longer went. I should assume that he
25 had been transferred because of that report, although it's not something
1 that he did because I pushed him to do it. It was a matter of simple
2 ethic for him to write up that report I expect.
3 As far as the physical aspect is concerned, you know I try to
4 keep in shape and I generally look after myself.
5 Q. You believe that the doctor was transferred because he wrote up
6 that report for you about your injuries; right?
7 A. Who else could it possibly have been?
8 Q. And what do you think? You say that you were not arrested at
9 Plitvice, and you say that you of all people were the target of that
10 particular attack, you Boro Savic, as opposed to Goran Hadzic.
11 A. Well --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat his
13 answer. Interpreter's note.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Savic, the interpreters asked that you repeat
15 your answer. Could you do that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What am I supposed to interpret?
17 Can they tell me what they want from me?
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're certainly not asked to interpret anything,
19 Mr. Savic. You -- I suppose it's about the last question -- it's about
20 the last question Mr. Zivanovic -- yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Can you assist?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'll repeat the question: Why do you think that you of all
23 people were the target of that attack and not Mr. Hadzic?
24 A. Yes. As I said, because of my peace-related activities and
25 views. The people who were more desirable at the time were aggressive
1 people who would taunt others which would eventually lead to conflict.
2 And there were such people around. As for the action at Plitvice,
3 Ilija Sasic and Veljko Dzakula knew about this. They were with us at the
4 Obrovac meeting because we arrived at Plitvice directly from Obrovac.
5 And then they left through Bosnia. But I always took the main roads. So
6 we drove back through Plitvice, and we all know what happened. Other
7 than that, there was no excuse for that to cause for something like that
8 to happen. We weren't there to taunt anyone.
9 Q. You say that Mr. Dzakula and Sasic knew about the action or the
10 operation. Which action? Something that was done by the Croatian side
11 or the Serb side?
12 A. The activities at Plitvice. That's what they knew about.
13 Q. You mean the action by the Croatian police?
14 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I mean, and that's all I could possibly
15 mean because there was nothing else happening apart from that, the police
16 action taken at Plitvice.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: When do you wish to finish?
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: This is the moment Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: So if it's appropriate for you, we will excuse
21 the witness now. Mr. Witness -- Mr. Savic, as you are aware of, your
22 testimony did not come to an end, so you will be back in the Tribunal but
23 in another courtroom, but it will be no problem, tomorrow morning at
24 9.00. I have to warn you that in the meantime, you are not allowed to
25 speak to anybody about your testimony, and you're not allowed to speak in
1 generally -- in general, sorry, with any of the parties as long as your
2 testimony is not ended. Do you understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Thank you.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. The usher will escort you
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: We reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
8 Courtroom II, if I'm not mistaken. Court adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.30 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day
11 of October, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.