1 Monday, 5 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning. Good morning to everyone in and
6 around the courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, may -- could you call the case. Sorry.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Can we have the appearances starting
11 with the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
13 Douglas Stringer, Matthew Olmsted, Rachel Friedman, and Case Manager
14 Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And for the Defence.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
17 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Can we go into closed
19 session, Mr. Registrar.
20 [Closed session]
11 Pages 932-963 redacted. Closed session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Stringer.
3 MR. STRINGER: I was looking for just one quick moment to raise
4 one issue, and there's a minute left on the clock, so I wanted to just
5 mention it because it hasn't been raised yet. The Prosecution is in the
6 process of attempting to recover, if I can put it that way, from the
7 recent news that we'll be sitting throughout the entire month of January
8 instead of just the first week, which had been the initial plan. We
9 wanted to inform Your Honours that we are now retooling the schedule on
10 that basis. It does affect us in two potentially significant ways in
11 terms of the planning that we had already worked into the system in
12 obtaining remaining amalgamated 92 ter statements, which is generally
13 something that has to happen in the field and there's the translation
14 issue, and then of course the filing six weeks in advance before the
15 witness comes, and then there's also the issue of the translations,
16 because now we're moving witnesses into January, and it affects how we
17 had been planning sort of the assembly line, if I can put it that way, on
18 the translations. And we will -- we will be able to manage all that.
19 I'm not -- I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but it does
20 present significant changes from what we had been planning previously.
21 I've been asked to mention to the Chamber that for scheduling
22 purposes, if we could find out sooner, of course it's obviously in the
23 Chamber's hands, what would be the three days that the Chamber would not
24 be expecting to sit during January, because it's not clear whether those
25 are three days in a row or whether they'll be sort of sprinkled in
1 different places. And with the pace we expect to be moving, it -- it can
2 really shake things up if we insert a two- or three-day break in the
3 middle of things. And just to lightly suggest that if the Chamber was
4 minded, the week of January 14th would be one that we could take a
5 tremendous -- we could benefit tremendously if actually the Chamber were
6 to not sit that week, or if we could put those three days that the
7 Chamber intends to take off into that week, we could sit the first week
8 as planned, the week of the 7th of January, perhaps have an off week
9 then. It would enable us to make a lot of progress on the work that I
10 described before on the 92 ter statements, and if we're taking three days
11 off in -- at some point, I just wanted to suggest that that would be a
12 good week for the Prosecution and its sort of logistics for what would be
13 the remainder of the Prosecution case.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer. We will discuss this
15 and come back to you as soon as possible. Court adjourned.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before we go back into closed session,
19 Mr. Stringer, we decided to grant your request for the week of
20 14 January. So we won't sit that week.
21 Can we go into closed session now.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 967-977 redacted. Closed session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your next witness, Mr. Stringer, is in private
22 session -- no, is in open session but with voice and face distortion and
23 pseudonym; right?
24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. My colleague Ms. Friedman
25 will be leading that witness, and we understand that a short break is
1 required for the technology to be set up.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's indeed why -- why I asked, Mr. Stringer.
3 So we need to take a break for 20 minutes to set up whatever is needed to
4 have this testimony with voice and face distortion.
5 Mr. Olmsted, are you wondering about the documents? We'll come
6 to that right after the next break. Unless -- unless you want to -- to
7 tender something. I don't know.
8 MR. OLMSTED: Yes. Well, Your Honours, if the Trial Chamber is
9 inclined to admit his 2001 statement, the Prosecution would request that
10 the revisions to that statement, 65 ter 5644, also be admitted, because
11 you need to look at them together.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that the proofing note?
13 MR. OLMSTED: That's the proofing note, yes, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: We understood that much, that that would be your
15 question, Mr. Olmsted. So we'll come back to that after the break.
16 MR. GOSNELL: If I may say, Mr. President, we would not object to
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Court adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, can we go into closed session for
22 a moment.
23 [Closed session]
11 Pages 980-982 redacted. Closed session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Good morning, Mrs. Witness. Thank
17 you for coming to The Hague to assist this Tribunal. First of all, do
18 you understand me in a -- do you hear me in a language you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you please -- no. Let's -- pseudonym sheet
21 right now?
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. The pseudonym sheet is 65 ter 6342.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: While this is brought up, Mrs. Witness, I need to
24 point out to you that you are about to give the solemn declaration by
25 which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. That solemn
1 declaration that you are about to make exposes you to the penalties of
2 perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to the
4 Could you please read out the solemn declaration now.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may sit down.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: On the screen you will see what we call a
10 pseudonym sheet with your name and date of birth on it. Are these
11 informations correct?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's correct.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: One more question. What is your ethnicity,
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Serb.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Just to reassure you, your voice is
17 distorted, your face is distorted, and we will -- no one in the courtroom
18 will use your name. We will refer to you as Mrs. Witness or Witness 099.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Friedman, your witness.
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. So will the pseudonym sheet receive an
23 exhibit number?
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6342 shall be
1 assigned Exhibit Number P127, admitted under seal. Thank you.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 WITNESS: GH-099
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to the ICTY?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would ask is that 65 ter number 2405 be
11 displayed on the monitor. This is a statement dated 14 April 2000. And
12 on the English version, can we see the bottom of the page, please.
13 Q. Witness, do you recognise this to be the statement that you gave
14 and your signature at the bottom?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And prior to testifying today, did you have an opportunity to
17 review a translation of this statement in your language?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is there anything in that statement that you no longer -- that is
20 not accurate or that you no longer remember?
21 A. Well, there is one passage towards the end of the statement that
22 I don't recall at all.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: Would the court officer please turn to page 6 in
24 the English and 5 in the B/C/S.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's this passage towards the
2 MS. FRIEDMAN:
3 Q. Can you read the first few words of the passage? Unfortunately,
4 we don't have paragraphs numbers, so just read the first few words.
5 A. "Sometime after this event, I planned -- I wanted to see
6 Goran Hadzic. I wanted to tell him what had happened in the village, and
7 in particular, what had happened with my husband, and asked him for
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. Do I need to read the rest?
11 Q. No, no. That's enough. The entire paragraph that you reviewed,
12 that's the paragraph that you no longer remember?
13 A. I don't remember that.
14 Q. And with respect to the rest of the statement, if you were asked
15 the same questions today, would you provide the same answers?
16 A. I would.
17 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
18 accuracy and truthfulness of your statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 2405 into evidence
21 under seal.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
24 Exhibit Number P128, admitted under seal. Thank you.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN:
1 Q. Ma'am, during the war, did the population of Erdut need permits
2 to move around?
3 A. Well, permits were needed to leave the town. We were facing the
4 Serb side, and to cross the border we had to have a permit. But the
5 children were going to school to Serbia, and every day I had to collect a
6 permit at the staff so that they would be able to go to school.
7 Q. So is it your evidence that you obtained a permit to cross into
8 Serbia every day?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In your statement, you describe how you and other women from
11 Erdut were brought to the training centre that would be used by Arkan in
12 order to prepare it for his arrival and that you then stayed and worked
13 there for some time.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: If we could please have -- I see P128 is still on
15 the screen. Can we have page 3, please.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I'm sorry, there's a
17 characterization on the record now that's been made that's not reflected
18 in the witness's statement. I know it's being translated to the witness
19 and therefore I think that the mischaracterization ought to be corrected.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I do not believe there is a mischaracterization.
21 We could ask the witness perhaps to remove her headphones or I could
22 quote directly from the statement. It would just take a little more
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness, do you understand English?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Then could I ask you to take off your headphones,
3 So, Ms. --
4 MR. GOSNELL: Perhaps it would help if I just said what the
5 mischaracterization is. It would be used for Arkan. There's no
6 indication that the witness had any contemporaneous knowledge that at the
7 time she was preparing the centre that Arkan would arrive. That's
8 something that she discovered later.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: I think that's a fair interpretation of the
10 question. She was preparing the centre that would later be used for
11 Arkan. Both of those elements are in her statement.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, I don't think any harm is done by you
13 asking the witness whether at that moment she knew that it was in
14 preparation of Arkan's arrival. So please do so.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness, you may put your headphone on again.
17 MS. FRIEDMAN:
18 Q. Ma'am, at the time that you were preparing the Erdut Training
19 Centre, did you know that Arkan would be using it later?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, could I -- I'll direct your attention to page 3 of your
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's at the top in English. In the B/C/S it's in
2 the middle of the page. It's page 2 in the B/C/S. My apologies.
18 Q. I'd like to now ask you about what you would observe once Arkan
19 had arrived at the training centre. When you worked there, did you
20 always begin work at the same time every day?
21 A. For the most part, yes.
22 Q. And what time was that?
23 A. I think it was at 6.00 in the morning, the first shift, from 6.00
24 until 1.00. That was the first shift. And then the second from 1.00
25 until 9.00.
1 Q. When you would -- when you were there for the first shift, did
2 you observe Arkan's men gathering?
3 A. The review was every morning at 6.00, then the flag would be
4 raised. I don't know anything else other than that.
5 Q. Were you able to see that happening?
6 A. Yes. We would see that from the kitchen window.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: I'll now ask our Case Manager, Mr. Laugel, to play
8 a clip from 65 ter 4766. This is tab 21, the fifth page, but what we're
9 going to tender is going to be only that page of the transcript, not the
10 first 4. And the relevant time code is 33:08 to 36:53.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can the video be shown, Ms. Friedman?
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, it can.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Publicly, I mean.
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. I've just -- we're just going to pause
18 it for a moment.
19 Q. Ma'am, did you recognise the location that this clip was filmed?
20 A. Yes. This is in the TO centre.
21 Q. When you say "TO centre," is this the same centre you've spoken
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what is the unit that is standing at attention? Who is this
1 A. I don't know how you mean. What unit?
2 Q. Did you recognise any of the uniforms that the men were wearing?
3 Not necessarily in where we've paused, but in the ceremony leading up to
4 this point.
5 A. Well, this is the uniform that his guard wore, the suits with the
6 four S insignia on their sleeve.
7 Q. Whose guard are you referring to?
8 A. Arkan's guard.
9 Q. Did you recognise the flag that was raised in this clip?
10 A. Yes. It's the Serbian flag.
11 Q. And what was the hymn that was being played?
12 A. The Serbian hymn "Lord Give Us Justice."
13 Q. Does this footage reflect what you would see in the morning from
14 the kitchen window as you described?
15 A. I don't understand what it is that you would like me to say.
16 Q. My apologies. I'll rephrase. Was what you saw in this video
17 familiar to you? Have you seen this before in real life?
18 A. Yes. That was the customary thing in the morning. The review,
19 the line-up, it was the usual thing that happened.
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: Now, I'd like to skip the next 30 seconds or so,
21 where just the flag is raised completely, and we're just going to move to
22 about one minute in of this clip and play it again for another 30 seconds
23 or so.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] We are a Serbian Army, each and
1 every one a believer!"
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you. I skipped a bit too far. Let's go
3 back. Yes.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Everybody is held accountable for
6 their deeds in their time. You, soldiers of the Serbian Volunteer Guard,
7 are accountable to the Serbian people of today. You know that this is a
8 time of a 21st century inquisition and that they want us either converted
9 or killed today. And you, soldiers of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, you
10 have the honour to defend our Serbian people today."
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, who is the man speaking in this video?
13 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
14 Q. And is this -- do you recognise the location?
15 A. Yes. That's the centre, the TO centre.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: And, Your Honours, the rest of the video-clip has
17 a chant sung by Arkan and his men, we've moved there before, but I don't
18 think it's necessary to play it in court. I would like to include it in
19 the part that's tendered and you will have the transcripts before you.
20 So I would tender this clip of 65 ter 4766 into evidence.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Registrar tells me that the video file has --
23 has been given to him with a .01 number; correct?
24 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes, that's right.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's the one?
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: It's just -- yes, exactly. It's one clip from
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: In e-court, Ms. Friedman, we have the 65 ter
5 number without the .01.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose that's the entire video.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. Well, it's only -- in e-court it's the
9 surrogate sheet and it's for the whole video because 65 ter 4766 we would
10 still like the 65 ter number to exist for the whole video, and we may
11 tender different clips as we proceed in trial. So now we've -- the DVD
12 that we've provided has just the clip, the .1, and that's what we're
13 tendering at this time, or .01.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you happy with that, Mr. Registrar?
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: As soon as you upload .01 into e-court,
17 Ms. Friedman, we will give it an exhibit number.
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Okay. Can it be marked at this time, perhaps?
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Does that help?
20 MS. FRIEDMAN: I thought it might help to resolve it without
21 spending more court time later on admission, presuming that the only
22 thing barring admission is that we admit it we could.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's admit -- marked for identification
24 pending uploading into e-court.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4766.01 shall be
1 assigned Exhibit Number P129, marked for identification pending upload in
2 e-court. Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN:
5 Q. Having worked in the kitchen, ma'am, can you describe the kind of
6 food that Arkan's men would have?
7 A. The food was good. I don't think that they lacked anything.
8 They had plenty of everything.
9 Q. Did you observe the level of discipline, if any, that Arkan used
10 with his men?
11 A. You could say that the discipline was like steel. Everybody
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: Could we now have 65 ter 485. That's tab 4. It
14 is a report dated the 25th of October, 1991. Oh, I don't have it on my
15 screen. Is it on the other screens already? Okay. And can we have
16 page 2, please.
17 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the middle of the page,
18 paragraph beginning "The food for volunteers is first class," and it
20 "The food for the volunteers is first class. There is meat,
21 fruits, and all sorts of sweets in abundance."
22 So was this typical or different for what the people in the town
23 had available at the time?
24 A. I think they had more. People of meagre means could not afford
25 to have things like that at home. We couldn't afford it. We didn't have
1 things like that. We had what we had running in our yards.
2 Q. Now, the same paragraph also states:
3 "Before the training begins in the morning, the Serbian church
4 flag is raised, and the hymn 'Boze Pravde' is played."
5 Is that the same hymn that we heard in the video-clip?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The document then states:
8 "There is an immaculate discipline in the centre. Arkan himself
9 beats one who disobeys. Most of the volunteers are criminals."
10 You already testified to the strict discipline. Now, the last
11 part about them being criminals, did Arkan or anyone else ever tell you
12 where his men were from?
13 A. Arkan himself, when he came, said that there were people from all
14 levels of society and that they all had to behave decently, and if anyone
15 had any problems, they should personally address them to him.
16 As far as we were concerned, in the kitchen we never had any
17 problems. They were very, very disciplined.
18 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 485 into evidence.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P130. Thank
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Ms. Friedman.
23 Witness, please, on the transcript, page 62, line 3, you said
24 that the food was good and that you don't think that anything was missing
25 and that food was provided in abundance. Could you tell me if you know
1 where this abundance of food came from when elsewhere there was hardly
2 any food at all?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We don't know. They would bring in
4 the food and his men would unload it and unpack it.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Friedman, the Registrar tells me that the
7 video-clip has now been uploaded, so we can admit it and mark it and
8 remove the MFI notation.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 (redacted) What does
14 Dvorac mean?
15 A. Dvorac, palace. It belonged to a Czech count, and this is where
16 the Erdut wine cellars were located. In the village the name Dvorac,
17 palace, remained in use.
18 Q. Was the Dvorac within the same area as the training centre?
19 A. It's very close, yes. The cellars are practically next to the
20 centre, and then the castle is a little bit farther along.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN: I will now ask Mr. Laugel to play a clip from
4 65 ter 4822. So this clip is 4822.01, and the time code is from 15:38 to
5 16:39. The relevant page of the transcript is page 3 at tab 29.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] 'The Belgrade economy is ready to
8 provide full support for Serbs in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,'
9 Milorad Unkovic stated in Erdut today. While talking to representatives
10 of this region's government --"
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, it went kind of quickly, so I'm just going to ask you a
13 couple of questions. Do you recognise, first of all, the room that this
14 is set in?
15 A. Yes. That is the Dvorac dining hall.
16 Q. And did you recognise the man who appeared before this one? If
17 you need us to go back, let me know.
18 A. I think that that's Unkovic. I don't remember it quite well, but
19 now when I listen to this clip that was broadcast on television, I can
20 see that the camera focuses on him as if that was him. I don't remember
21 his face. I just know by his first and last name that it was him.
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would just like to go back to 15:46 on this clip
23 and just pause it there for a moment. Yes.
24 Q. The man on the left, is that the one who you believe to be
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: And we can continue now with the video-clip.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Mayor of -- Unkovic. While talking
5 to representatives of this region's government, Unkovic said, among other
6 things, that it was Belgrade's intention to aid reconstruction of
7 destroyed villages and cities in the Serbian region, especially Vukovar,
8 in the shortest possible time. On the occasion of the Belgrade
9 delegation's visit, president of the Serbian region government
10 Goran Hadzic said assessed that this was one of the signs that people had
11 not been left to themselves. Hadzic said he believed that all Serbian
12 countries, Vukovar as well, would shortly be rebuilt and all conditions
13 for normal functioning of important living points all over Slavonia,
14 Baranja and Western Srem would be provided in the shortest possible time.
15 With regard to the most recent ..."
16 MS. FRIEDMAN:
17 Q. Now, who is the man speaking to the reporters on the screen?
18 A. Goran Hadzic.
19 Q. Can you identify also the man in the left of the frame?
20 A. Yes, that is Arkan.
21 Q. And do you recognise the location?
22 A. Yes. This is in Erdut at Dvorac.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: I tender this clip into evidence, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4822.1 shall be
1 assigned Exhibit Number P131. Thank you.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: And can we now have 65 ter 6251. That's tab 42.
3 Q. Do you recognise this location?
4 A. Yes. That is Dvorac.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can this be admitted in the record?
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6251 shall be
8 assigned Exhibit Number P132. Thank you.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN:
10 Q. Ma'am, in the statement that you have affirmed today, you
11 describe three encounters with Hadzic.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we go into private session, please.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 1000-1002 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MS. FRIEDMAN:
23 Q. Ma'am, when did the Croats first start to leave Erdut?
24 A. I think it was on the 1st of August. They left on that raft, on
25 that boat to Osijek. It was an organised departure.
1 Q. And was there -- did there come a point in time later that the
2 civilians were being -- that the Croats were being rounded up and
4 A. Again, they took them by bus to Osijek. The bus had someone on
5 it with a list who went through the whole bus with that list, and then
6 they were bused to Osijek.
7 Q. How did you find out about these people that were being gathered
8 and bused to Osijek?
22 Q. Why did you feel safer there?
23 A. My parents were Orthodox Serbs. They would not simply break in
24 there, because it's a Serb house.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Friedman.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to return now to
8 private session.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 1006-1007 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The number of your document,
6 Ms. Friedman?
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: 914, please. Tab 6.
8 Q. Ma'am, it is similar to the last document we looked at. I just
9 wanted to ask whether you have had a chance to look at these records --
10 this record as well and whether you knew the people mentioned.
11 A. I know. I know them, yes.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: I'd like to have this document admitted as well.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As P134. Thank you.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN: And the final similar record is 65 ter 935, tab 7.
16 Can we have that on the screen, please.
17 Q. Do you recognise the civilian who has signed this document,
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And do you know who moved into his house?
21 A. Well, I remember the face, but I can't tell you the name now. It
22 eludes me this minute, but I know the man.
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: I tender this into evidence.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P135. Thank
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 MS. FRIEDMAN:
4 Q. And do you know -- the person whose face you remember, do you
5 know what his job was, the one who moved into the home in question?
6 A. I think he was on the security detail, whether at the centre or
7 at Dvorac, I don't know, but one of the two. He was in uniform.
8 Q. Now, did people move into the homes of the Croats who left?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Where did they come from?
11 A. I think most were from Western Slavonia, but also people from
12 Osijek. The bulk came from Western Slavonia, from Slatina onwards.
13 Q. And did they come individually or -- from Western Slavonia or in
14 an organised fashion?
15 A. I don't know that they came in an organised fashion. Perhaps a
16 few families who knew each other and helped each other move from the same
17 place, but that would be it.
18 Q. And were most of the people -- what ethnicity were most of the
19 people arriving from Western Slavonia?
20 A. Mainly Serb, but there were mixed marriages among them too.
21 Q. Was there a commission or a group of people within the local
22 community of Erdut who were responsible for settling those who came from
23 Western Slavonia to Erdut in these homes?
24 A. I don't know who that could be, but I believe they reported to
25 the staff. Now, who assigned them from there on to various positions,
1 I -- I wouldn't know.
2 Q. The staff, which staff are you referring to?
3 A. Well, the staff was in the former local commune of Erdut. Now,
4 what affairs they were in charge of, I don't know exactly, but they were
5 called the staff. It operated regularly next to the police station. It
6 was called the Territorial Defence Staff, and that's where we picked up
7 those permits, for instance, the laissez-passer.
8 Q. Was there any particular person who was in charge of those
9 coordinating the assignment of houses?
10 A. I don't know exactly who that was.
11 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we please return briefly to private session.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 1011 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: And can we now have 65 ter 3098.02. And this is,
7 just for your reference, page 208 of the original collection.
8 Q. Ma'am, please take a look at the page in B/C/S, and then we'll
9 move on to page 2 in B/C/S. It's two separate pages, just to give you a
10 quick glance at both. We can move to page 2 now.
11 And do you recognise the names of the people on these two pages
12 that moved into -- into another house in Erdut?
13 A. Yes, I know both names.
14 Q. Where were they from?
15 A. I think that they were from a place called Lisicine. This is
16 probably also somewhere around Slatina. I know that he was a forestry
17 engineer, and Madam Marija was a Croat, and she also worked in the Erdut
18 vineyards. Mr. Djuro did not work. This was a private home with a lot
19 of land around it, and he was busy with the garden, with the vineyard,
20 with the livestock, and the lady worked. She was the only one who worked
21 in the Erdut vineyards. This is Josipa Grasteka [phoen] 47. They were
22 in that house. The owners were Rozalija Bence and Joska Josip Bence.
23 Q. The owners you've just mentioned, those are the people who lived
24 in the home before they arrived? It was their home?
25 A. Joska was taken away. I don't know who took him away. I think
1 he's dead now. And Mrs. Rozalija, she went to Osijek.
2 Q. And the couple that moved in, was the husband of Serb ethnicity?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is Joska, is that a nickname for Josip?
5 A. Perhaps. I'm not sure. But I think, yes, that his name was
6 Josip, but we all called him Joska.
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: I would like to tender 3098.01 and 3098.02 into
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 3098.01 shall be assigned
11 Exhibit Number P136. And 3098.02 shall be assigned Exhibit Number P137.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN:
14 Q. Now, just looking at the record, some of it has not yet been
15 transcribed, so I think it will be there, but in case not, I would like
16 to ask you to repeat the full first name and last name of the original
17 owners of the home.
18 A. Rozalija Bence and Josip Bence.
19 Q. And by this point in time, had the majority ethnicity of Erdut
21 A. Yes. The elderly Croats returned to their homes. The younger
22 ones mostly stayed in town. For the most part, the elderly came back.
23 Q. Sorry, I should have clarified. What I mean is the -- the period
24 that was the summer of 1992, after the groups of Croats had left, as you
25 described, and people from Western Slavonia were living in the homes that
1 were vacated, at that point in time, had the majority ethnicity in Erdut
2 changed and what was it?
3 A. Yes. It was then predominantly the Serbs who were there.
4 Perhaps there were a few Croats, but I couldn't tell you the exact number
5 of Croats that stayed. Some of them did, though, yes.
6 Q. Was Arkan still in the region at the time?
7 A. I think so, yes. I'm not sure now when he left.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Can we have 65 ter 1155. This is tab 8.
9 Q. This is a decision assigning land to Arkan. It is signed by a
10 man named Djordje Dokic. Do you know who that is?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. What was his job at the time?
13 A. I think that he was there in the local commune. I think the name
14 was -- or the staff, but I didn't know, actually, that he had such
15 powers, as we would say.
16 Q. Was he also involved in the assignment of the houses to those
17 arriving from Western Slavonia?
18 A. I think so, yes, but I cannot be quite sure, because I haven't
19 seen any documents to date or any signatures. This is just something
20 that we assumed happened. This is the first time that I'm seeing any
21 document and a signature.
22 Q. And the land that's referred to here, the Orasje local commune,
23 do you know that area?
24 A. I do, yes.
25 Q. Did Arkan build a facility there?
1 A. Yes. There was a building that was constructed. There was also
2 supposed to be a petrol station, but it was never completed. The
3 building is there, though.
4 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, I tender this document into
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P138. Thank
9 MS. FRIEDMAN:
10 Q. Ma'am, can you describe what it was like to be in a mixed
11 marriage before the war and what it was like during?
12 A. Before the war it was the normal thing. We were a mixed
13 community, so there was nothing out of the ordinary with that. I wasn't
14 the only one in that situation. During the war, it was difficult. If
15 your husband was Serb or a Croat, depending on who - how can I put
16 it? - was being targeted, it was difficult for us.
17 Q. Were those in mixed marriages targeted in any way as well?
18 A. I couldn't say that they were all targeted, but I wasn't the only
19 one with problems. There was a colleague who was a Croat and her husband
20 was a Serb, she also had problems.
21 Q. What problems did she have?
22 A. She was brought in for questioning. They would check their
23 passport if -- her passport if she had travelled anywhere. Her parents
24 had a small bomb lobbed at them. The mother died shortly after that.
25 After the Medak Pocket fell, our people were for some three or
1 four weeks subject to military duty in the reserves, I think. And then
2 her husband returned before this period expired, and then when everyone
3 else returned from the Medak Pocket, there was a bomb thrown at their
4 house. The whole front of the house was demolished. It collapsed. Her
5 mother-in-law, an elderly woman, happened to be sitting in the front room
6 there and thank God nothing happened to her.
7 My colleague had a house with a yard. It was an old Serbian type
8 of house, some 200 years old, and they destroyed it.
9 Q. Just as a final question, then, can you tell the Chamber about
10 the impact that the war had on your husband and the other Croats who
11 remained in Erdut.
12 A. I believe that it was very difficult for them. It was difficult
13 for me as a Serb, so I can only imagine how hard it must have been for
14 them, for somebody to be calling you out on something that you had
15 nothing to do with.
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you, ma'am. I have no further questions at
17 this time.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Friedman.
20 I see the time, so we will release you as a witness, ma'am. Your
21 testimony finishes here. We thank you very much for coming to The Hague
22 to assist the Tribunal -- oh, yes, of course. I'm sorry. You will have
23 to come back tomorrow for cross-examination and redirect. I was a little
24 bit -- or much too fast.
25 I have to remind you that your testimony is not ended, which
1 means that you are still under oath, and that means that you are not
2 allowed to discuss your testimony with anybody, and you are not allowed
3 to speak at any -- or with any of the parties. Do you understand?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The Court Usher will now escort you
6 out of court.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic or Mr. Gosnell, how long will your
9 cross-examination take? Do you have a specific idea for the moment?
10 MR. GOSNELL: I sent an estimate earlier today by e-mail of
11 1.5 to 2.5 hours. I believe that that estimate still stands.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
13 Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day
16 of November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.