121106ED

Page 1018

1 Tuesday, 6 November 2012

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Can we have the appearances starting

11 with the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13 Douglas Stringer, Rachel Friedman, Sarah Clanton, and Thomas Laugel for

14 the Prosecution.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. For the Defence, please.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Zoran Zivanovic and

17 Christopher Gosnell for the Defence. Thank you.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Hadzic. Problem with the

19 translation or with the microphone?

20 Is it okay now, Mr. Hadzic? Is it okay now, Mr. Hadzic?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The witness may be brought in. Thank

23 you. Just -- yeah. Closed session to start with, but before we do that,

24 Mr. Registrar, I think Mr. Stringer has something to raise.

25 MR. STRINGER: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

Page 1019

1 Just to alert the Trial Chamber, potential scheduling difficulties for

2 this week and next week, and there was an exchange of information with

3 the Defence last night about it, and we thought it would be best to bring

4 it to the Chamber's attention now while we're still in the earlier part

5 of the week.

6 There's the potential -- and it depends upon when the next

7 witness begins, but there's a decent chance that the next witness will go

8 over into next week, and I'm talking about GH-016, who is on our schedule

9 is scheduled to start, actually, in the next session today, and that may

10 happen, but accounting for the full -- if the Defence uses the full

11 eight hours of cross, if there is some redirect, we could easily go over.

12 And so the point there was to raise with the Chamber the possibility of

13 keeping in mind whether an extra session at some point along the way this

14 week might enable us to finish this witness so that he could go home and

15 not have to stay over the weekend for, you know, the first block or so on

16 Monday.

17 And then potentially the more significant issue relates to the

18 first witness on the calendar for next week who is GH-015, and I believe

19 he's actually going to be travelling soon. The Prosecution asked the

20 Defence last night how much time they anticipated to use for cross of

21 this witness. He's down as a 92 ter witness with one and a half hours of

22 direct, and we've done our scheduling based upon sort of the default

23 cross-examination time of three hours. Now the Defence have indicated

24 they want to ask for six or seven hours of cross. For the Prosecution

25 that raises two points.

Page 1020

1 First is, a few weeks we had asked whether it's possible to get

2 an earlier indication when the Defence would be asking for significantly

3 more time for cross-examination, because if those requests are granted,

4 it just pushes everything off. We -- we do all the scheduling per block,

5 and it's all on the basis of sort of the default times that we anticipate

6 for cross-examination, and in the case of GH-015, if in fact that

7 cross-examination time is doubled or even more, then it would knock the

8 following witness, 093, off entirely for next week, because we cannot

9 alter the schedule for the videolink witnesses who then start on the

10 15th of November, next Thursday. So it's all quite a domino effect.

11 You know, I'm sure counsel will want to make his submissions on

12 the amount of time and why they need the time for cross, and that's

13 obviously in Your Honours' hands. We don't take much of a position on

14 that other than to say that it causes real scheduling difficulties for us

15 when we don't find out until quite a late stage that the Defence will be

16 seeking significantly more time for cross.

17 And so those are the issues, and we can talk about them with

18 Your Honours' legal officers during the break if they'd like more

19 information, but I didn't want to take too much court time on it, but

20 this is the situation at present.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer. You didn't mention

22 GH-021, who is actually scheduled for Friday and who I suppose would then

23 go over to the next week by all means, which would eventually mean that

24 GH-015 could, depending on the Defence's request and the Court's

25 decision, take the rest of the week.

Page 1021

1 MR. STRINGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I was just looking at the

2 calendar we've already updated, and I need to go back to --

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have -- sorry. I have a schedule in which

4 after GH-016 there is one more witness on Friday, GH-021.

5 MR. STRINGER: GH-021 was the subject of an e-mail that was sent

6 to Chambers late last week. We're in public session. I don't know --

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, we are.

8 MR. STRINGER: -- that I can say much more other than --

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, I'm with you.

10 MR. STRINGER: We have moved that witness down to

11 November 19th --

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

13 MR. STRINGER: -- to fill in for the videolink that now will not

14 be happening on that day.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.

16 For the Defence? Mr. Zivanovic.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. As a first -- as to the

18 Witness GH-016, I'd like to say that we are opposed to the proposal of

19 the Prosecution for extra hours in this week, because we have the

20 session, we planned our activities according to this schedule, and we --

21 we submit that such schedule should be changed only if some extraordinary

22 circumstances request so.

23 In our view, it is not -- travel itinerary of a witness could not

24 dictate the change of such schedule if exceptional circumstances does not

25 exist, and in our view there is no such circumstances.

Page 1026

1 Q. Now, I understand that you weren't there at the time; were you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. But you came back to Erdut a few days later, around the

4 7th or the 8th of August; is that right?

5 A. No. I returned on the 15th or the 16th of August. Those two

6 weeks I spent in Osijek with a colleague of mine, and I still continued

7 to go to work. I returned on the 15th or 16th of August.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Friedman.

9 MS. FRIEDMAN: We just want to verify that the statement which

10 was admitted under seal is not being broadcast. It's not. Okay. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. GOSNELL:

13 Q. But do I understand correctly that you first came back to Erdut

14 on around the 7th or the 8th of August from Serbia?

15 A. No. That's not when I came back from Serbia. I probably arrived

16 earlier from Serbia, but I know for sure that I continued to work those

17 two weeks in Osijek, (redacted) and I returned on the

18 15th or 16th of August. That I know for sure.

19 Q. And when you did return to Erdut, how many Croatians or how many

20 Croats from Erdut had left as far as you could observe in respect of

21 those who still remained there?

22 A. I think most people left on that float, that raft.

23 Q. When you say "most people," and I completely understand that it's

24 difficult to be exact and I don't ask you for exact numbers, but do you

25 have a sense as a percentage how many of the Croatian civilians would

Page 1027

1 have left by the time you returned?

2 A. I cannot tell you with certainty. I have absolutely no

3 orientation in time, and I cannot say things that I don't know.

4 Q. Did your husband or any other relative talk to you about how the

5 JNA took over Erdut?

6 A. I don't remember. I think I was still in Novi Sad, and I saw on

7 TV that the army had entered Erdut. I think that's how it was.

8 Q. And you say that sometime in August in your statement at page 2

9 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S, which we can turn to.

10 MS. FRIEDMAN: May I just suggest, I have a clean copy of the

11 witness's statement. Perhaps I can hand it to her.

12 MR. GOSNELL: That would be kind. Thank you.

13 Q. Now, ma'am, you say here that you were contacted by some people

14 from the Erdut Crisis Committee, Krizni Stab, and you testified yesterday

15 about the Territorial Defence Staff, and my question for you is: Was

16 this -- was this Crisis Committee, as far as you know, part of the

17 Territorial Defence Staff?

18 A. I've said that I don't know exactly what they were called. It

19 could have been the Crisis Staff. No. How did I call them? Territorial

20 Defence Staff. Maybe I was confused. I don't know exactly now whether

21 they were called Crisis Staff or something else. I cannot testify now

22 exactly to that.

23 Q. There is a slightly different formulation in the B/C/S

24 translation of your statement which I'll just speak to you and you can

25 tell me whether it makes any difference at all, and the words in the

Page 1028

1 B/C/S version are "Kriznog staba u Erdutu," and the version that appears

2 in the English is "Crisis Committee (Krizni Stab)." Does that difference

3 mean -- help you understand or clarify what you meant by Crisis Staff?

4 A. In my eyes it's one and the same thing.

5 Q. And in your statement you say you don't recall who it was who

6 approached you. Is that right? You don't recall who it was who came to

7 you from the Crisis Committee?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. And why did you think that they could call you for the work

10 obligation, what you refer to in Serbian as "radna obaveza." In your

11 mind at the time, what gave them the authority to come and say, Please

12 come and do this work?

13 A. That's how they approached everybody. We were told that we have

14 a work obligation, and that is why we did not receive a proper salary.

15 We received coupons, and all our able-bodied people were obliged to

16 report for this duty.

17 Q. Now, in your statement from the year 2000, which is -- which you

18 have there in front of you, the place where you went to clean and prepare

19 is described as the training centre, the TC. Do you see that down at the

20 bottom of page 2?

21 A. No.

22 Q. It would be the second-last paragraph. Well, in English the

23 passage reads:

24 "When I was contacted by some people from the Erdut Crisis

25 Committee (Krizni Stab) and was ordered to report to the training centre

Page 1029

1 for the so-called forced labour."

2 Have you found that sentence in the B/C/S version?

3 A. I have.

4 Q. And yesterday during your testimony at pages -- for the Judges

5 and my learned friends, page 990 and 992, you referred to the centre as

6 the TO centre. Do you remember yesterday referring to it as the

7 TO centre?

8 A. Well, before the war it was called the Territorial Defence

9 centre, and it was within the municipality of Osijek. Well, now, did I

10 use the name that was in use before the war or the one that was in use

11 during the war, I'm not sure, but in essence it's one and the same thing.

12 Q. Right. That's very helpful. It was just a difference, and I was

13 seeking to clarify that for the Judges.

14 Did you still consider it to be part of the TO when you went

15 there to clean it?

16 A. I didn't think about it at all. We came there because we were

17 told to do so. I wasn't giving much thought to how it was called. It

18 wasn't important to us.

19 Q. And you say at the bottom of page 2 in the English, which should

20 be page 2 as well as of the B/C/S, the second-last paragraph:

21 "We were ordered to clean the centre, but no one told us who

22 would be accommodated there."

23 Can you recall who it was, leaving aside who approached you from

24 the Crisis Committee, can you recall who it was who ordered you to clean

25 the centre?

Page 1030

1 A. No. The first and last name, no.

2 Q. And at page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S, you say:

3 "While we were still preparing the TC, I remember that I saw

4 Goran Hadzic who came in together with some of his men."

5 Do you remember how many men were with him at that time?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And the word that you use in your statement, at least as it's

8 translated in English, is that Mr. Hadzic inspected the centre. Can you

9 explain a little more precisely what it was you observed Mr. Hadzic

10 doing? Did he, in fact, inspect the centre?

11 A. I can't call it an inspection. I can tell you that he went

12 through the place, but how long he stayed there or if he stayed at all, I

13 don't know.

14 Q. And during the time that you were cleaning the centre and before

15 Arkan arrives with his men, and for that matter, even before Mr. Hadzic

16 moves in, which is a few days after this visit by him to the centre, can

17 you tell us whether anyone else was staying there at that centre?

18 A. No, I don't remember.

19 Q. On page 3 of the B/C/S, the third full paragraph down in the

20 middle of the page, and in the second paragraph from the bottom of page 3

21 of the English, you say:

22 "Some Serb reservists were also based at the TC in the beginning

23 and they wore JNA drab green old-fashioned uniforms."

24 It's not clear in this sentence when you say "in the beginning,"

25 precisely when in the beginning you're referring to. Now that you've

Page 1031

1 seen this, can you remember when it was that the JNA reservists arrived

2 or were there or were present at the training centre?

3 A. Well, I don't know when any of these people came. They were two

4 separate buildings. This building was new. It was a stand-alone

5 building. And there were a couple of old buildings. And I suppose they

6 must have been accommodated in the old buildings. I know that they

7 weren't in the new building. The one that we were cleaning. There was

8 no army there. Arkan was the only one who could have been there, not the

9 army.

10 Now, when any of these people came and went, I don't remember. I

11 don't even think I knew that precisely at the time, let alone 20 years

12 later.

13 Q. But you know what reservists are?

14 A. Well, I knew that they were the army, because they wore military

15 uniforms. They didn't have camouflage uniforms such as the ones worn by

16 the Arkan's army. That was what distinguished them. Other than that,

17 nothing else.

18 Q. Did you see or observe whether they had a commander who was

19 present, or were they just there on their own without a commander?

20 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

21 Q. And how many rooms in the TO centre were there for accommodation?

22 Taking all the buildings together, do you know approximately how many

23 rooms there were for accommodation?

24 A. No. I never entered that building.

25 Q. Do you know how many rooms there were in the -- what is called as

Page 1032

1 the new building?

2 A. Truly, I don't know.

3 Q. Now, you say in your statement at page 3 of the English and from

4 page 2 to 3, I think it starts at the bottom of page 2 on the B/C/S, that

5 Mr. Hadzic at some point returns and moves in to one of the rooms in the

6 new building; is that correct?

7 A. Can you tell us where I can find the portion you're asking me

8 about?

9 Q. Yes. It's the very last paragraph starting at the bottom of

10 page 2 in B/C/S. And it's the first paragraph on page 3 of the English.

11 It should be the last two sentences of that paragraph, so I think in the

12 B/C/S that would be on page 3.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Friedman.

14 MS. FRIEDMAN: Yes. I think the witness should be reminded to --

15 refer to the hard copy, because on the screen, the English on the

16 right -- she seems to be referring to the screen. I think it's

17 confusing.

18 MR. GOSNELL:

19 Q. Ma'am, if you like, you can use the pages in front of you.

20 That's a copy of your statement in your own language. Perhaps --

21 A. Can you please read out the beginning of the paragraph so that I

22 can find it?

23 Q. Yes. Yes. In B/C/S it says, "Dok smo jos sredivale." It should

24 be just at the very top of page 3, ma'am. The last couple of sentences.

25 A. Yes, I can see it now.

Page 1033

1 Q. Now, my question is: Do you recall when it was that Mr. Hadzic

2 moved out of the new building? Do you have any recollection of that?

3 A. I don't know, no.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. All right. Well, let me take you to another passage in your

7 statement, if I may. Hopefully we'll find it more easily. And I'll

8 start by giving you the reference in B/C/S. It's on the bottom of page 4

9 of that statement right in front of you. Bottom of page 4, beginning

10 "nesto posle ovog." And, ma'am, you can use the hard copy, the pages in

11 front of you, if you wish. It might be easier.

12 In English this is at page 5. It's the second full paragraph, in

13 the middle of the paragraph.

14 And the sentence that I want to draw your attention to is this

15 one, you say:

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Do you see that passage?

23 A. I do.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1034

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

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4 A. I have to read through this, I'm afraid.

5 Q. Take your time. There's no rush.

6 A. Here goes: The premises of Dvorac, the building we're talking

7 about, were used by the Erdut Winery. However, some of the rooms were

8 placed at the disposal of the government, and I think that Hadzic used

9 the suite, but I really cannot orient myself in time. Since when, up

10 until which point, I really can't.

11 I worked at the winery for a very short period of time. Even

12 when I would see them there, I didn't know where they had come from and

13 where each one of them spent nights. I did see them there, but I can't

14 tell you whether one of them slept at the TC, the other one at Saponja,

15 and still another at the winery. I can't.

16 Q. Well, that's fair enough, ma'am, and thank you very much. Now,

17 you describe in your statement the arrival of Arkan at the training

18 centre, and you say that he told you -- and, ma'am, for this you don't

19 need to really look at your statement. You said that Arkan -- that will

20 make it easier, actually. You said that Arkan came in and told you that

21 he was the commander of the Territorial Defence training centre; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, did he by any chance mention by whom he had been appointed

25 to that position? If anyone.

Page 1035

1 A. No. No. The only thing he said was, I'm the commander of the

2 centre as of today, and I am to be obeyed. That's it.

3 Q. And did he -- how long after that, if you can recall, did his men

4 arrive? Or did he arrive with his men?

5 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

6 Q. When he -- when you first saw Arkan in the kitchen and he

7 announced who he was, was it on that same day that all of his men also

8 arrived, or did they also come -- or did they come later?

9 A. We didn't see them come or how many there were. I really don't

10 have an idea at all now as to how many men there were.

11 Q. And you then describe that at some point later, Badza arrives; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I understand it may be very difficult to remember this

15 detail, but do you have any sense of approximately how many men were part

16 of this group who were with Badza?

17 (redacted)

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Page 1036

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3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed.

4 MR. GOSNELL:

5 Q. Do you know what unit Mr. Pecic or Major Pecic, what unit was he

6 a part of, if you know, or at that time? Do you know what unit he was a

7 part of?

8 A. Well, he was with the army, because he was a JNA major, a trained

9 one who had graduated from the military academy. That was his

10 profession. And as I said, I saw him very rarely. I left the centre and

11 the winery quite soon. I never worked at the winery again up until the

12 15th or the 16th or 17th of November when the thing in Vukovar happened.

13 Q. Was he intelligence or infantry or artillery? Do you have any

14 sense of what service he was serving in?

15 A. No. No. I never asked about it.

16 Q. And do you have any recollection of how long he was -- he stayed

17 in Erdut during this period of time? Was he there into 1992?

18 Sorry, ma'am. Perhaps that was not clearly translated. I was

19 asking you as far as you can recall --

20 A. I apologise.

21 Q. That's fine. As far as you can recall, do you remember whether

22 Mr. Pecic or Major Pecic was still in Erdut into 1992?

23 A. I don't remember that. He didn't call on me when he was leaving.

24 Q. Ma'am. Could you take a look at the top of page 4 of your

25 statement in front of you in the B/C/S. And in English it is the middle

Page 1037

1 of page 4. And here's what you say --

2 MR. GOSNELL: And for this I believe we do need to go into

3 private session, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MR. GOSNELL:

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Page 1039

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9 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Registrar tried to tell you, Ms. Friedman,

10 that while the witness's microphone is open, you shouldn't open yours.

11 MS. FRIEDMAN: I understand completely, but her image is being

12 broadcast, so -- I completely understand the Registrar's correct. It's

13 just that we should be in private session.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let me see that.

15 Private session, please.

16 [Private session]

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Page 1040

11 Pages 1040-1042 redacted. Private session.

Page 1045

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2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we go into private session, please.

3 [Private session]

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Page 1046

11 Pages 1046 redacted. Private session.

Page 1047

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

20 MR. GOSNELL:

21 Q. Now, in your statement you say that in February 1992, your

22 husband was arrested by Arkan.

23 MR. GOSNELL: I think understand the circumstances that's safe

24 for public session, Mr. President.

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Page 1048

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9 MR. GOSNELL:

10 Q. Well, let me just read to you from your statement, and perhaps

11 we're talking about two different events. It's on page 6 of the English

12 and page 5 of the B/C/S.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, wouldn't it be better to go in

14 private session out of an abundance of caution.

15 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.

17 [Private session]

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Page 1049

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13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17 MR. GOSNELL:

18 Q. I have just one more question for you, ma'am. We were informed

19 that you did not wish to meet with representatives of the Defence, and

20 you were under absolutely no obligation to do so, and I wouldn't want to

21 suggest otherwise, but just out of curiosity, could you tell us why you

22 didn't wish to meet with us?

23 A. I must say I expected this question. The lady Prosecutor asked

24 me if I wanted to and said it was my decision alone, and I said I would

25 if I am mentally prepared for it. So the only reason is my health. I