Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1420

 1                           Monday, 19 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             May the record reflect that this late start is due to technical

 8     problems.  Could you call the case, Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances starting

12     with the Prosecution, please.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14     Douglas Stringer, Alexis Demirdjian, and Case Manager Thomas Laugel for

15     the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Zoran Zivanovic and

18     Chris Gosnell for the Defence.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  We go into closed session.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1421











11 Pages 1421-1459 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 1460

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10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So OTP calls its next witness, which is 091.  Is

14     that right, Mr. Demirdjian?

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  75, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  75.  Yes, indeed.  Sorry.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for coming

19     to The Hague to assist the Trial Chamber.

20             First of all, do you hear me in a language you understand?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please tell us your name, your date of

23     birth, and your ethnicity?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Miladinovic.  2nd February,

25     1955.


Page 1461

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And your ethnicity, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to read the solemn

 4     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

 5     have to point out to you that the solemn declaration that you are about

 6     to make does expose you to the penalties of perjury should you give

 7     misleading or untruthful evidence to the Tribunal.

 8             Please read the solemn declaration now.

 9                           WITNESS:  MILAN MILADINOVIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

14             Mr. Demirdjian, your witness.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could this be turned up, please?

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  The witness needs the volume to be turned

18     up.  He --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Great.

21                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Miladinovic.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Sir, it is correct to say that you have been met by the Office of

25     the Prosecutor in May of 2001 and that you gave a statement on that

Page 1462

 1     occasion; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pull up the statement, please?  It is

 4     65 ter 2449.

 5        Q.   And you will see, Mr. Miladinovic, the statement appear on the

 6     screen in front of you to your right.  On the right-hand side you will

 7     see, I believe, the English version, and on the left-hand side you will

 8     see the statement in the Serbian version.  Do you see them?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now in 2001, when you gave this statement, it was first written

11     in English and it was read back to you in your language; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And at the bottom of the English version --

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we could scroll down.

15        Q.   I believe that your statement appears there.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now you were also met by members of the Office of the Prosecutor

18     in September this year; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And we discussed matters relating to the content of your

21     statement; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now in relation to this statement you gave in May 2001, is this

24     statement -- does this statement accurately reflect your evidence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1463

 1        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today in the courtroom,

 2     would you give the same answers?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, could I ask for the witness's

 5     statement to be admitted, along with the associated exhibit?  There is

 6     one.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2449, witness's

 9     statement, shall be assigned Exhibit P267.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12        Q.   Mr. Miladinovic, when you arrived in The Hague, you were also

13     shown the proofing note which was made in September when you were visited

14     by members of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you read this statement.  You were given an opportunity to

17     review it; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you had one clarification to make in relation to this

20     proofing note, and I will ask you a question about it now.  In your

21     statement you make references to the -- to where Goran Hadzic was

22     stationed in Dalj.  Now the proofing note states that he was stationed in

23     the department store near the main street, and I think you wish to

24     correct that.  Could you tell us where he was stationed in Dalj?

25        A.   Next to the department store there is the shop of

Page 1464

 1     Bozidar Masaric, just next door to the department store.

 2        Q.   And is that where he had -- where he was stationed?

 3        A.   Yes, that's where he was supposed to be stationed.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Now at page 3 of your statement you explain, and you

 5     describe the attack on Dalj on the 1st of August, 1991.  And you say

 6     that:

 7             "We knew that the attack would be launched on 1 August 1991, but

 8     we were not sure about the time."

 9             Can you first of all clarify --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Could you first of all clarify for the Trial Chamber who you mean

12     when you say "we," "we knew the attack would come"?  Who do you mean by

13     "we"?

14        A.   Well, we in the village.  Most everyone already knew that there

15     would be an attack.

16        Q.   And how did you know that the attack was imminent?  How was that

17     information conveyed to you?

18        A.   Well, there was a number of people who constantly commuted to

19     Borovo and Dalj and through them the news reached us.

20        Q.   And could you tell the Trial Chamber who were these people?

21        A.   Well, they were closer to the SDS, those people who travelled

22     unhindered even by the Croatian police at the time, so they were able to

23     go back and forth.  And it's from them we learned that an attack was

24     coming.  We didn't know exactly when but we knew it was coming.  The

25     rumour was all around the village.

Page 1465

 1        Q.   Now during the attack where were you exactly?

 2        A.   I was at home.

 3        Q.   And what did you hear during the attack exactly?

 4        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean?

 5        Q.   Sorry.  Let me take you to your statement at page 3.  You say

 6     that the attack started at 4.00 in the morning:

 7             "... and later on I learned that the assault was launched from

 8     the direction of Borovo."

 9             So perhaps the better question is:  Did you hear anything during

10     the attack?

11        A.   Well, we could hear the shooting when the attack began.

12        Q.   And again coming back to my question about who knew about the

13     attack, you told us that the SDS members conveyed this information to

14     you.  Did they inform -- well, who did they inform?  Did they inform

15     everyone in the municipality or members of -- oh, yeah.

16        A.   No, the -- that was not the case that anybody informed anybody.

17     It's those people who were on good terms with everyone.  People shared

18     the news and that's how eventually we all learned that an attack was

19     imminent.

20        Q.   Now after the attack, you mention that -- in your statement at

21     page 3, you mention the creation of the TO staff in Dalj and you explain

22     that the commander was Pavle Milovanovic.

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   Now on this page you also provide a number of names.  And I'd

25     like to bring your attention to the name Djorde Calosevic, aka Briga.

Page 1466

 1     Did you know this person before the war?

 2        A.   I knew him.  Not that well, but I knew him.  He wasn't in Dalj

 3     all the time.  He was in Bosnia for a while.  Then he came to Dalj.  Then

 4     he worked for a while in Osijek.  I knew him slightly.

 5        Q.   And here you say that when the TO staff was created he became --

 6     or was involved, actively involved with the TO command; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And could you tell us whether -- well, what was his role, if you

 9     know, in the TO command?

10        A.   I think he was president of the municipality.  At that time Dalj

11     was a municipality.

12        Q.   Do you know whether he's still alive today?

13        A.   I think he is.

14        Q.   And do you know where he lives?

15        A.   I know that he's across the border in Serbia but I don't know

16     where exactly.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now you mention at page 4 of your statement that you

18     kept working for IPK Dalj after the attack of the 1st of August; is that

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Were you asked to join the Territorial Defence?

22        A.   No, no.  Nobody asked me.

23        Q.   So you remained an employee of IPK Dalj; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you tell us who your superior was in IPK Dalj?

Page 1467

 1        A.   My superior was Dragan Lovric.

 2        Q.   And was he -- did he remain your superior after the attack?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And could you tell the Trial Chamber where your offices were in

 5     Dalj?

 6        A.   Within the compound in one of the offices.

 7        Q.   And could you tell us where the compound was located in Dalj?

 8        A.   The company itself is not far from the railway station, on the

 9     periphery of Dalj, as you go towards Osijek.

10        Q.   I would like to show you a map.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Which is 65 ter 6241.  And this is at tab 9.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Miladinovic, you will see in a moment a map or an aerial

13     image of the village of Dalj, and with the help of the usher I would like

14     you to identify the location of IPK Dalj.  Do you see the map in front of

15     you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Very well.  Are you able to locate the IPK workshop and the

18     offices on this aerial image?

19        A.   Here.

20        Q.   Can you circle it?  Okay, can you place a -- can you circle the

21     area of the IPK workshop?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And this is the office which is near the railway station; is that

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1468

 1        Q.   Can you mark with a number 1 where the railway station is, if you

 2     are able to see it on this image?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And for the sake of the completeness, could you mark the IPK with

 5     number 2.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask for this image to be seized and

 8     marked, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please, Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6241, marked by the

11     witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit P269.  Just for the record,

12     the associated Exhibit 2450 was assigned Exhibit P268.267.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   Sir, later in your statement - and I will come to that - you talk

16     about the events at Lovas farm, and you mention hangars where people were

17     kept from Vukovar.  Are those hangers visible in this image?

18        A.   The hangar is at Lovas.  You mean that one?

19        Q.   I mean the hangars where people were brought from Vukovar.  You

20     state in your statement that people were held in Dalj.

21        A.   Those are the hangars.

22        Q.   So this is the same location that you had marked as number 2 in

23     the previous image; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 1469

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We don't need to tender this image.  We already

 2     have it on the record.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, after the JNA and the TO took control of Dalj, you told

 4     us that -- well, can you tell us first of all what happened to the

 5     non-Serb population in Dalj?

 6        A.   I don't understand.

 7        Q.   Let me rephrase my question.  You explained to us that on the

 8     1st of August there was an attack on the town and that the TO staff was

 9     created.  After this 1st of August, can you tell the Trial Chamber what

10     happened to the non-Serb population, so the Croats, Hungarians,

11     et cetera?

12        A.   They were in labour platoons.

13        Q.   And did they all remain in Dalj?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So did there come a time where non-Serbs from Dalj were taken

16     somewhere by boat?

17        A.   The only people who left Dalj -- the only non-Serbs who left Dalj

18     went to Osijek from Aljmas by that ship.

19        Q.   And what proportion of the non-Serb population left from Aljmas

20     by ship?

21        A.   I think 90 per cent left.

22        Q.   Now, at page 3 of your statement, you mention a man by the name

23     of Milorad Stricevic and you indicate that he was put in charge of

24     interrogation of non-Serb villagers, those who remained in Dalj.  Can you

25     tell us when you heard that Stricevic was put in charge of

Page 1470

 1     interrogations?

 2        A.   Yes.  Well, that was on the second day, when those people from

 3     the SDS came from Bogojevo [as interpreted], they immediately set upon

 4     deciding who's going to be whom in the village.

 5        Q.   And just to be perfectly clear, what do you mean by "the second

 6     day"?

 7        A.   I mean the second day of the attack.  It was known immediately

 8     who was going to be in charge of questioning, another one was president

 9     of the municipality, a third one was the main man in the village.  That

10     was the second day after the attack, when the municipality was being

11     established.

12        Q.   Very well.  Before the conflict, did you know where Stricevic was

13     from?

14        A.   Stricevic was from Dalj.

15        Q.   Okay.  And when you say in your statement that he was in charge

16     of interrogations, could you tell us what you heard about these

17     interrogations?

18        A.   He was in charge of interrogating those people who had been

19     arrested, who had been on the Croatian side and were then arrested.  He

20     was in charge of conducting their questioning, to get them to say some

21     things about Croatian plans.  That's, I believe, what the questioning

22     concentrated on.

23        Q.   And did you hear about how he conducted this questioning?

24        A.   Well, the questioning was normal between Serbs and Croats.  The

25     questioning was the sort of questioning you have when there is a war

Page 1471

 1     going on.  There were beatings and so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   I'd like to move on to the part of your statement where you

 3     explain how you were ordered to bury bodies in a few instances.  The

 4     first instance you mention is the five bodies that were discovered on the

 5     road to Trpinjska Cesta.  You explained this was in September or October,

 6     and you explained in your statement as to how you helped digging a hole

 7     for the burial of five Croats.  Now, in your statement you say that when

 8     you were helping out with the burial, you did not know the reasons, but

 9     you later learned that these men were killed by Arkan.  Could you tell

10     the Trial Chamber how much time after the burial of these five Croats you

11     learned of Arkan's involvement?

12        A.   Well, I learned about it.  When I finished work, when I returned

13     home in the village, it was known that Arkan was heading towards Vukovar,

14     that he killed those people and left them in the cornfields.

15        Q.   So you say you learned this when you returned home in the

16     village.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Just to establish the time-period, how much time after you

19     returned to the village did you hear about this?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, it was in the morning at around 9.00.

21     I was digging.  My shift ended about 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon.

22        Q.   Now you mention that you were asked to help out with this burial

23     by, again, Mr. Djordje Calosevic.  Did Mr. Calosevic make any comments

24     during the burial?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection.  We have no notice of the content of

Page 1472

 1     this testimony in the proofing note or the statement.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let me get back to that, Your Honours.  I'll

 4     strike that question for now.

 5        Q.   Mr. Miladinovic, I'd like to move now to the events at -- that

 6     you describe about the Lovas farm.  Now in this second -- in this

 7     instance you explain that you were ordered by Pavle Milovanovic to drive

 8     your excavator to Lovas farm; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask that we display on the screen

11     65 ter 6242, which is at tab 10.

12        Q.   Mr. Miladinovic, we are going to now look at another aerial image

13     of the area around Dalj.  In the meantime, could you tell us what is the

14     distance generally between Dalj and Lovas farm?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  4 kilometres or 2 or 3 kilometres.  Not more

16     than that.  3 kilometres.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can I ask that we zoom a little bit on the

18     bottom half.  And scroll all the way down.

19        Q.   On this aerial image, Mr. Miladinovic, are you able to locate

20     Lovas farm, roughly?

21        A.   This part here.  Here it is.

22        Q.   Could you mark that, please.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It keeps zooming in, I think, instead of

24     marking.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's it.  This area here.

Page 1473

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we zoom up, please, before the witness marks

 2     it.  Thank you.

 3             So let's zoom in again the bottom half, just to have a bit of

 4     perspective.  A little bit more.  Just a little bit more.  Okay.

 5        Q.   Can you mark it now, Mr. Miladinovic.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And can you tell us which road you took with the excavator to

 8     make your way to Lovas farm?

 9        A.   You can't see it here.  You can't see it in this photograph, but

10     it would be more or less here.  From the beginning and then in this

11     direction.

12        Q.   Now we see that Lovas farm is located close to the river and

13     you've made a little marking to the right.  So we see a marking to the

14     right and we see a main road.  You did not take the main road.  Is that

15     what you're saying?

16        A.   Well, when you go from Dalj to Borovo it's on the left.  Now it's

17     to the right when you go towards Dalj.  I'm referring to the farm.

18        Q.   And just to make this clear, which road do you take to go from

19     Dalj to Borovo?

20        A.   When you go from Dalj to Borovo, the farm is on the left-hand

21     side.

22        Q.   Okay.  And is that the road you took?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can I ask this map to be marked, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1474

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6242, marked by the

 2     witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit P270.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Now when you arrived at Lovas farm, sir, you tell us that along

 6     with Milovanovic there are two men there.  I should say three, sorry.

 7     You mention Mr. Zeljko Pajic and man named Calosevic, aka Fafrika, and

 8     you mention a third man whose name you did not know.  Starting with

 9     Zeljko Pajic, can you tell us who he was and what functions he occupied

10     in Dalj?

11        A.   They were in the SDS.  As for his function, I don't know what his

12     official position was but I do know that he was a member of the SDS.

13        Q.   And you say you don't know his function.  Did you know which

14     organisation he worked with -- sorry, he worked for?

15        A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

16        Q.   And the second person, Calosevic, whose nickname is Fafrika, can

17     you tell us who he was?  Did you know him?

18        A.   They were also in the SDS.  They were closer to the SDS, together

19     with Pajo, so naturally they performed all those duties together with

20     Pajo.

21        Q.   Now you say in your statement that once you arrived you saw

22     bodies lying on the ground and that it appeared that they were killed

23     only recently.  When you arrived there, how were the -- well, how were

24     the bodies?  Where were they?

25        A.   Yes.  They were on the grounds of the farm scattered around, very

Page 1475

 1     recently killed, allegedly.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And if we could pull up, actually, 65 ter 6278.

 3        Q.   You will see now, sir, an image of this area.  You have already

 4     marked or drew a sketch of this, so I will not ask you to indicate again

 5     every location.  Do you recognise this image, first of all?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And can you tell us what it is?  What are we looking at?

 8        A.   Well, this is the farm.  The grounds of the farm.  This is the

 9     area where the bodies were buried.  This is where I buried them.

10        Q.   Now show us the entrance of the farm?  Can you mark it with a

11     number 1.

12        A.   I didn't understand that.  What location were you referring to?

13        Q.   The entrance to the farm.

14        A.   The entrance.  Somewhere here.

15        Q.   And when you entered the farm, in which area were the bodies

16     located?

17        A.   The bodies were even further away on the grounds of the farm.  If

18     I can show you like this, it would be somewhere around here.  That's

19     where the bodies were located.

20        Q.   Could you mark that with a number 2.

21        A.   When you enter the farm, you pass by an office, and you turn

22     left.  There was a sort of field toilet there, and that's where these

23     bodies that had been killed were scattered, in the vicinity of that

24     toilet.

25        Q.   Right.  And this area, could you mark it with a number 2, please.

Page 1476

 1        A.   I am to mark it with number 2, the location where the bodies were

 2     found?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Now the road that we see on this image from where you enter Lovas

 6     farm, can you tell us which road is this?

 7        A.   Well, the road is here.  You enter the farm from the road.

 8     That's how I entered with the excavator.  There is an asphalt road here

 9     behind the office and in front of the office, and you can use it -- or,

10     you can travel down this road to get as far as the field toilet.

11        Q.   Let me rephrase that.  I am talking about this road that we see

12     from where you entered.  Where you marked the number 1, there seems to be

13     a road going from north-south.  Could you tell us what that road is?

14        A.   This road continues to Osijek.  This one goes on to Borovo, and

15     the one to the left leads to Osijek.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I have about ten more minutes.  Is

17     this the appropriate time for the break or?

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, it is, but we should clarify about the road

19     because I am not sure that the witness understood what -- what you were

20     exactly asking.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Right.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You were asking about the road that goes from the

23     top of the image to the bottom.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  But we'll come back to that after the --

Page 1477

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Sure.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- after the break.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And in the meantime, maybe we could seize the

 4     image --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, okay.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  -- to make sure we don't lose the information

 7     and mark it.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6278, marked by the

10     witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit P271, marked for

11     identification.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Witness, we will take a break now and come back at 12.45.

14     The Court Usher will escort you out of court.  Thank you.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.  Please proceed.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Mr. Miladinovic, the image should still be on the screen before

23     you.  We just wanted to clarify this main road again.  You told us that

24     it goes to Borovo and to Osijek.  So where would Borovo be located in

25     relation to this area?

Page 1478

 1        A.   Borovo is somewhere here.

 2        Q.   For the record, you're pointing towards the south; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now going north, which is the first village that one would

 5     encounter?

 6        A.   There are no villages out to the left or to the right.  There is

 7     only Dalj and Borovo.  But this road on the left leads to the village of

 8     Klisa -- or, rather, Vera, but that is 4 or 5 kilometres away.  Not more

 9     than that.

10        Q.   So you told us there is only Dalj and Borovo.  So just to be

11     clear:  This road going north to south, is that the Dalj to Borovo road?

12        A.   Yes, towards Dalj.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now in your statement at page 5, you tell us that you

14     learned that the people that you had buried at -- by the Lovas farm

15     belongs to a group of Croats who had been brought from Vukovar and who

16     were held in the IPK hangars.  Now I would like to ask you, were you

17     present when the people were brought at the hangars in Dalj?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And could you tell us how these people were brought from Dalj?

20        A.   To Dalj or from Dalj?

21        Q.   How these people were brought to Dalj from Vukovar.

22        A.   By bus.  By buses.

23        Q.   Okay.  Could you tell us how many buses you saw?

24        A.   I don't know.  I would say that there were about ten buses.

25        Q.   And when these buses were brought to Dalj, you tell us that they

Page 1479

 1     were brought to hangars of IPK Dalj, how many hangars are we talking

 2     about here?

 3        A.   How many hangars there were?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   There were four hangars.

 6        Q.   And were you there when people were taken from the buses into the

 7     hangars?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us who was overseeing this operation?

10        A.   The army was overseeing it.

11        Q.   And did you see any members of the army?

12        A.   Well, yes.  They were there by the buses when they were getting

13     out.

14        Q.   And can you tell us how were people taken into the hangars?  How

15     was this organised?

16        A.   Well, as the buses arrived, the men were taken to one hangar and

17     the women to another.

18        Q.   Very well.  The last topic that I would like to deal with is --

19     well, slightly related to this.  You explained to us that the people held

20     in the hangars were held for one night.  Do you know where these people

21     were taken on the following day?

22        A.   Well, on the following day they went to Novi Sad.  That's what

23     they said.  To the SPENS hall.

24        Q.   Now during the rest of 1991 and during the course of 1992, to

25     your knowledge, were there other operations whereby Croats were

Page 1480

 1     transported out of Dalj?

 2        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 3        Q.   Were there situations where Croats left Dalj?

 4        A.   Well, I think there were some who went to Osijek for Christmas,

 5     or, rather, they were driven out.  That was the second time.  Driven out

 6     by those who were -- played prominent roles in Dalj.

 7        Q.   And can you explain to the Trial Chamber how they were driven

 8     out?

 9        A.   Well, at Christmas for some reason, for the purpose of looting

10     and because of the houses, it was necessary for all the Croats to be

11     driven out of their houses and taken to Osijek.  This was organised.

12     They were taken there by bus.  They were put on the buses and driven to

13     Osijek.

14        Q.   How did you learn about this?

15        A.   Well, it was well known.  One could see the buses that were

16     there, and people went to the Croatian houses and forced them to get on

17     the buses and go to Osijek.

18        Q.   And you say that this was done by people who played prominent

19     roles in Dalj.  Did you see on those occasions who these people were?

20        A.   No, I couldn't see who they were.  Pajo and his close associates,

21     his assistants, were those who were most important there.

22        Q.   Thank you for answering my questions.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's all I ask, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             The last exhibit, Mr. Demirdjian, the Registrar tells me that it


Page 1481

 1     is MFI'd.  No?

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  P271.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, I see it here.  It says "marked for

 5     identification."  But I was asking to tender it in full.  I think that

 6     perhaps we were expecting more markings at the time, but we can tender it

 7     in full at this time.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Admitted and marked.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, Mr. Miladinovic, I

11     just want to clarify something.

12             In the transcript, page 59, line 40 -- or lines 40 to 44, you

13     mention the army that was overseeing the operation that was taking people

14     out of the buses and placing them in hangars.  Which army are we speaking

15     about?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the army that was in Vukovar.

17     The regular army.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Could you remind me what the name

19     of this regular army is, in fact?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what you mean

21     when you say "what was its name."

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Was it -- well, in fact, each army

23     has a name.  What kind of force was present there?  It belonged to which

24     government, in fact?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was the JNA, the


Page 1482

 1     Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Cross-examination.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. -- or good afternoon, Mr. Miladinovic.  My name

 7     is Christopher Gosnell.  I represent Mr. Hadzic and I will be asking you

 8     just a few questions.  If there is anything that is not clear, please ask

 9     me for further clarification or specification.  Do you understand that?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to move closer to

12     the microphone, please.

13             MR. GOSNELL:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, the interpreters are asking whether you could

15     speak -- perhaps you could move the microphone closer to your mouth.

16             Now, sir, just to pick up on the last subject that you were being

17     asked about by the Prosecutor, and this was some Croats being forced out

18     at around Christmas time, according to you.  Do you remember us just

19     speaking about that a couple of minutes ago?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you recall that when you were speaking to the Prosecutor

22     before your testimony that you recalled that this was actually around

23     Easter 1992 and not Christmas.  Is it correct that it was Easter 1992

24     that this occurred?

25        A.   I don't know exactly whether it was Christmas or Easter.  I think

Page 1483

 1     it was Easter.  I don't know for sure but I know it was holiday time.

 2        Q.   Back in August 1991 or the summer of 1991, you say that you knew

 3     that there was an attack coming against Dalj.  How long before the attack

 4     occurred did you know that that was going to occur?

 5        A.   That day, in the evening, around 6.00, 7.00 p.m. already, the

 6     whole village already knew from those people who travelled constantly to

 7     Borovo and Dalj.  We heard it from them.  The story spread around the

 8     village and people talked, of course, and everybody soon knew there would

 9     be an attack at such and such a time.

10        Q.   So it was just the day before that you learned of this impending

11     attack on Dalj; is that correct?

12        A.   That same day around this -- around 6.00, 7.00 p.m., and the

13     attack came the next day.  Yes.  So it was the day before.

14        Q.   Amongst Serbs, what political parties were active in the summer

15     of 1991?

16        A.   The SDS and the HDZ.

17        Q.   And the HDZ would be a party to which Croats primarily were

18     members, correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was there any party other than the SDS on the Serbian side?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   And what percentage of - and I know you can't be exact, and

23     that's fine - but what percentage of the adult population, as best you

24     can surmise based on what you knew at the time, were members of the SDS?

25     Was it a high percentage or a low percentage?

Page 1484

 1        A.   I think at that time the SDS had a higher percentage.

 2        Q.   Would you say that you knew very many people who were members of

 3     the SDS?

 4        A.   I don't understand what you mean by did I know them.  Almost all

 5     the Serbs were affiliated with the SDS.  You didn't have to know somebody

 6     personally.  If you knew he was a Serb, he was in the SDS or a follower

 7     of the SDS.

 8        Q.   Earlier today at page 50 of your testimony you referred to some

 9     individuals from the SDS in Bogojevo coming to Dalj on the second day

10     after the attack.  Do you remember saying that?

11        A.   No.  From Bogojevo, no.

12        Q.   Well, let me read out what you said and perhaps a correction is

13     in order.

14        A.   All right.

15        Q.   So the question that you were asked at page 50 was:

16             "Can you tell us when you heard that Stricevic was put in charge

17     of interrogations?

18             "A.  Yes.  Well, that was on the second day.  When those people

19     from the SDS came from Bogojevo, they immediately set upon deciding who

20     is going to be whom in the village."

21             Was that answer -- was that what you said, or was perhaps your

22     answer inaccurately recorded?

23        A.   Not from Bogojevo, from Borovo.  From Borovo.  Those people came

24     and the important positions were immediately filled.  Nobody from

25     Bogojevo had anything to do with it.

Page 1485

 1        Q.   And when you say "those people," does that include

 2     Pavle Milovanovic?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now you mentioned during your testimony at page 46 a certain

 5     Djordje Calosevic who becomes, according to you, the president of the

 6     Dalj municipality.  Do you remember that, referring to him as the

 7     president of the Dalj municipality?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that he assumed that position after the creation

10     of the RSK?

11        A.   He was immediately appointed to the top position in the

12     municipality, president of the municipality.  The other one was the

13     commander of the village.  And these people elected each other, those

14     people who had come from Borovo as refugees who did not dare stay in

15     Dalj.

16        Q.   And by "immediately," you mean immediately after the

17     1st of August when Dalj was taken over by the JNA and the TO; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Are you sure that there was a municipality in existence at that

21     time in August, September, October?

22        A.   I think it immediately became a municipality at that time.

23        Q.   You also refer in your statement and in your testimony to a

24     Calosevic who had a nickname Fafrika.  Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1486

 1        Q.   Am I right in saying that this Fafrika is different from the

 2     Djordje Calosevic who later became president of the municipality?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember whether -- do you remember Fafrika's first name?

 5        A.   Zoran Calosevic, I believe.

 6        Q.   Earlier today you testified at page 50 that -- you were asked

 7     what percentage of non-Serbs left Dalj at the time of its take-over by

 8     the JNA and the TO.  And you said that 90 per cent left.

 9             Do you remember that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you said that they were taken away on a boat from Aljmas; is

12     that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, did these village leave Dalj after Dalj -- after control of

15     Dalj had been assumed by the JNA and the TO or did they leave in advance

16     of the control being seized by the JNA and the TO?

17        A.   They left before.  Let me explain.  When the attack began, they

18     left - all of them - as a group.  It was probably organised before that

19     they should leave as soon as the attack begins.  From Aljmas to Osijek,

20     they got onto a trailer-truck or several trailer-trucks and went to

21     Osijek.

22        Q.   And was the ZNG or the Croatian police involved in organising

23     this movement of Croatian civilians from Dalj to Aljmas?

24        A.   That I don't know.  Really.

25        Q.   Do you know whether there was any co-ordination or agreement

Page 1487

 1     between the JNA and anyone on the Croatian side in respect of this

 2     organised evacuation?

 3        A.   I don't know that either.

 4        Q.   At page 2 of your statement you say, and I quote:

 5             "When we had to go to work in the fields, we had to get a permit

 6     from the TO Dalj.  At that time, the TO was practically fully controlling

 7     the life in the village."

 8             Now can you tell us, please, in a little bit more detail in

 9     concrete terms how you mean that the TO was fully controlling life in the

10     village?

11        A.   They were like the authorities.  Everything you wanted to get

12     done, you had to report it to them first so that they should know where

13     we are, what we are doing, and so on.

14        Q.   How long did that situation last that the TO was fully

15     controlling the life in the village?

16        A.   They were always in control, except that later the JNA took over

17     control of the entire area.  But they remained in their role as the main

18     authority along with the JNA.

19        Q.   Well, did you get a sense that sometime in 1992 there was a

20     greater civilian presence in Dalj?

21        A.   No, not particularly.

22        Q.   Was the TO controlling the police in Dalj from August 1991

23     through to the end of the year?

24        A.   Yes.  They were in charge of everything.

25        Q.   Now you say in your statement at paragraph 10, which is on

Page 1488

 1     page 3 --

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  And this is my informal paragraph numbering, I

 3     don't think anyone else has it.

 4        Q.   -- that you learned that Zeljko Cizmic was appointed as the

 5     Dalj milicija commander.  How did you come to learn that?

 6        A.   Everything that went on immediately became common knowledge.  You

 7     could hear Tom was appointed, this Dick was appointed, that Harry was

 8     appointed the other thing.  It's a small village.  People talk.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Is it safe to say that that's also how you knew that these

10     other individuals listed on page 3 as members of the police, the Trbic

11     brothers, Sinisa Glodic, Gojsovic, you learned this through word of mouth

12     that they were members of the police?

13        A.   Yes, the same.

14        Q.   Now just looking at page 3 of your statement, you list these

15     members of the police, the Dalj police, and then you say:

16             "Later on I learned that Milorad Stricevic was put in charge of

17     the interrogations of non-Serb villagers who remained in Dalj and the

18     surrounding villages."

19             And then you list Milinkovic, Gojsovic, the brothers Trbic,

20     Sinisa Glodic, as people who assisted Milorad Stricevic with his work.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So as far as you knew, is it fair to say that the police was

23     co-ordinating with Stricevic?

24        A.   I believe that was so.

25        Q.   Do you know whether Cizmic was also helping Mr. Stricevic?

Page 1489

 1        A.   I think so.

 2        Q.   And was he also participating in these interrogations of non-Serb

 3     villagers?

 4        A.   That I couldn't say.  I don't know.

 5        Q.   Well, how do you know that these particular individuals listed in

 6     your statement, how do you know that they were assisting Stricevic with

 7     these interrogations?

 8        A.   They had vehicles.  They went around and brought people into

 9     custody.  You could see them driving around the village.  They had some

10     sort of power compared to ordinary citizens in villages.

11        Q.   Do you know where these interrogations were taking place?

12        A.   In the centre of Dalj at the Dom.  You know, I can't remember

13     now.  What is it?  The hall of culture.  It's a large building and that's

14     where they were stationed, where he had his offices.

15        Q.   Is that where the TO headquarters was located?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Is that also where Cizmic was based?

18        A.   Cizmic was at the police station because Dalj has a police

19     station.

20        Q.   How far from the police station was the Dom Kulture?

21        A.   About 500 metres.

22        Q.   Did you ever learn that there was a detention facility of any

23     sort in the Zadruga building near the Orthodox church?

24        A.   I heard there was something there, but who was held inside, I

25     don't know.

Page 1490

 1        Q.   When did you hear that?

 2        A.   As the days went by after the attack, people who had some sort of

 3     power, they were looking for office space, and that's how we learned --

 4     we learned who was where.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm not sure that I understand your answer.  Did anyone

 6     tell you that there was such a facility?

 7        A.   It's not that anyone specifically told me.  All of this was

 8     within the centre, about 100 metres from the Dom.  It was in plain sight

 9     and you could also hear and see that there are some people there, that

10     they are moving about.  Later on we also learned that there was some sort

11     of prison there, too, that some people were held inside.

12        Q.   Do you know who was running that facility or in control of that

13     facility?

14        A.   I don't know that.

15        Q.   Do you know whether Stricevic was interrogating individuals

16     there?

17        A.   As far as I know, he had his office at the Dom.  It was not

18     actually a proper office, it was some sort of room, where he questioned

19     people.

20        Q.   I believe you said earlier today -- well, first of all, I'll ask

21     you to confirm:  Do you know that these interrogations included beatings?

22        A.   I heard that.

23        Q.   All right.  And did you hear that Stricevic beat people in his

24     office at the TO?

25        A.   I told you, from what we heard from people who were closer to it

Page 1491

 1     all, he was doing that.  Yes.

 2        Q.   Well, I suppose my question is this:  Would it have been easier

 3     to conceal beatings at the Zadruga detention location than to conceal

 4     them in the TO headquarters, based on what you know of where people lived

 5     and how close people were to these various locations?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I don't know whether ...

 7        Q.   Did it appear to you that Cizmic and Milovanovic were in a

 8     relationship of subordinate to superior?

 9        A.   I don't know which one of them was superior to the other.  They

10     collaborated.  I know that much.  But which of them had the higher

11     position, I don't know.

12        Q.   Now you say at page 4 of your statement that you learned that the

13     Lovas farm, located by the road between Savulja and Dalj, was taken over

14     by the TO from Borovo Selo.  Do you remember having said that the farm

15     was taken over by the TO from Borovo Selo?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you just explain for us why it was the Borovo Selo TO that

18     took over the farm rather than the Dalj TO?

19        A.   Since it was them who liberated us, then they took over the

20     property.

21        Q.   Why didn't those who were running the Dalj TO take over the

22     Lovas farm?

23        A.   I don't know these things.

24        Q.   At page 3 of your statement, you describe -- well, actually, it's

25     at page 4 of your statement, you say that:

Page 1492

 1             "One day Djordje Calosevic arrived with a truck and brought four

 2     elderly Croats from Dalj prison ... to dig a grave."

 3             And you spoke a little about that earlier today.  Can you recall

 4     how long before the fall of Vukovar that event occurred?

 5        A.   I don't understand what you're driving at.  What do you mean

 6     "before the fall"?

 7        Q.   Well, we've heard other evidence in the case that suggests that

 8     Vukovar was -- fell, was defeated by the JNA and other forces on or

 9     around the 19th of November, and I'm sure that you recall this event.  Do

10     you remember Vukovar falling?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  So my question is:  In relation to this event where

13     Djordje Calosevic shows up with some elderly prisoners to bury a grave,

14     how long before the fall of Vukovar did that occur?

15        A.   I don't know exactly but perhaps ten days before the fall of

16     Vukovar.  While the fighting was still ongoing for Vukovar, it was in

17     that same period, perhaps ten days before.

18        Q.   You say that you later learned that Arkan was responsible for

19     killing these individuals.  Do you know whether at the time Arkan was

20     participating in this --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know whether at the time that he killed these individuals

23     he was participating in the attack on Vukovar?  Did you hear that as well

24     or did you not hear that?

25        A.   No, I didn't know that.

Page 1493

 1        Q.   Now you say here that Calosevic brought four elderly Croats from

 2     Dalj prison.  What place are you referring to when you say "Dalj prison"?

 3        A.   There, at the Dom, next to Stricevic.  There was also a large

 4     room next door like a detention facility where he interrogated people.

 5        Q.   And that's where those elderly prisoners came from?

 6        A.   I don't know where they came from.  I believe they were local

 7     people from surrounding villages.  I'm not sure but I think they were

 8     residents of the surrounding villages.

 9        Q.   You were asked how far Lovas farm is from Dalj.  Approximately

10     how far is Lovas farm from Vukovar?

11        A.   Some 6, 7 kilometres.

12        Q.   And you say that you - this is at the top of page 5 of your

13     statement - that you "saw a man making a list or something like that.  I

14     did not know him and I also cannot describe him, but I'm sure that he was

15     not from Dalj."

16             Casting your mind back to that event, can you at least tell us

17     whether he was wearing civilian clothing, or military clothing, or some

18     combination of the two?

19        A.   Civilian clothing.

20        Q.   Did you hear him say anything?

21        A.   I didn't get off the excavator.  When I arrived there I remained

22     in the excavator.  They loaded everything.  So I didn't get off the

23     excavator at all.

24        Q.   Did it appear from you -- to you from your vantage point on the

25     excavator that he was issuing orders to the other individuals who were

Page 1494

 1     there?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   So he was just standing off to one side observing; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   He was making some sort of notes.  And as he was writing all

 6     these things down, these two loaded everything up and I did what I did.

 7        Q.   And you say here at the -- in the third paragraph of page 5 that:

 8             "I also heard that these people were killed by the TO from

 9     Savulja."

10             Can you recall who told you that they were killed by people from

11     the Savulja TO?

12        A.   Well, when I arrived at the farm --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

14     sentence.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I knew them, they approached

16     me and said that they were from Savulja, that they had waited for them

17     there and killed them.  Because there is a hangar in front and they spent

18     the night there, and then on the following day, allegedly, they were

19     killed.

20             MR. GOSNELL:

21        Q.   Witness, you said something at the very beginning of your answer

22     that was not captured by the interpreters.  Could you try to say that

23     again, please?

24        A.   There was a guard at the farm before I arrived there.  As I knew

25     him - he is from Savulja - he showed me where there were holes, where I

Page 1495

 1     was to take the bodies to, and he told me about this at the same time.

 2        Q.   And as far as you know, was the Savulja TO part of the

 3     Borovo Selo TO or was it somehow autonomous?

 4        A.   I think they were together in Borovo Selo.

 5        Q.   You say in your statement at page 2 that tension was growing in

 6     early 1991 and that people were losing their jobs and being replaced by

 7     unqualified person of Croatian background, especially in the police

 8     force.

 9             Do you remember that happening?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And what exactly was going on?  Who was being brought in to take

12     these positions?

13        A.   Well, mostly employees, workers from the reserve forces.  So they

14     were from the reserve police forces and had to work.  So they were

15     employees, Croats from work.  Whoever wanted to, for example, could join

16     up.  He'd be a policeman.  He didn't have to work and would be paid.

17        Q.   And did there come a time when it was unsafe for Serbs to go out

18     at night-time?

19        A.   Well, yes.

20        Q.   Can you explain why that was?

21        A.   How should I explain it?  For example, most people knew everyone

22     else, so they knew what a certain person was like, what sort of

23     tendencies he had, and such people would receive weapons and would roam

24     around the village with these weapons, threaten whoever they wanted to

25     threaten.  So naturally the situation wasn't safe.

Page 1496

 1        Q.   I just have a few questions about -- further questions about the

 2     situation after Dalj was taken over by the JNA and the TO.  And --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- the Prosecution has given us a note of what you said to them

 5     in September, and what -- that note says that:

 6             "When asked whether he was asked to join the TO, he answered that

 7     he," that's you, sir, "he wasn't asked to join the TO.  He answered only

 8     later when the fighting had already ceased did it become mandatory for

 9     him to join the TO."

10             Do you remember when it was that it became mandatory for you to

11     join the TO?

12        A.   Well it became mandatory about two months later, when things had

13     quietened down, and then we had to join the JNA or the TO and the JNA had

14     to be together.  We had to go.  We were called up and we had to join up,

15     join the Territorial Defence but under the auspices of the JNA.

16        Q.   So two months after the take-over of Dalj, which was on the

17     1st of August, would you agree with me that that's roughly around the end

18     of September or the beginning of October 1991?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you recall whether you ever heard that there was a decision of

21     the SFRY presidency that had anything to do with that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And in concrete terms, what did you do after you were called up?

24     Were you carrying a weapon with you?  Did you engage in any armed combat?

25     What did it mean that you were called up?


Page 1497

 1        A.   I personally wasn't called up because I worked where I worked.

 2     There was a lot of work.  So I didn't go anywhere for a year because I

 3     had to work, and in a certain sense, it's almost as if I had been a

 4     member of the army.  How should I put it?  It's as if I'd been working

 5     there or as if I'd been in the TO, but there was nothing else for me to

 6     do apart from work.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No further questions.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             Anything in redirect?

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just a few questions, Your Honours.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

12        Q.   Mr. Miladinovic, at page 68 today of the transcript you were

13     asked about the TO controlling the police force in Dalj.  Do you remember

14     that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now you explained that the TO was in charge of everything in the

17     town.  However, what relationship, if any, do you know -- what was the

18     relationship between the TO and the police?

19        A.   I don't understand your question.  What do you mean when you say

20     "what was the relationship"?

21        Q.   Did you see the TO and the police interact?

22        A.   Well, they probably interacted since they were responsible for

23     Dalj.  They must have co-operated.

24        Q.   And did you see this?

25        A.   No, I didn't.  I didn't get involved in that.

Page 1498

 1        Q.   You were later on asked about the Zadruga building, and you were

 2     specifically asked whether it was easier to conceal beatings at the

 3     Zadruga building as opposed to the TO headquarters.  Do you remember

 4     that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, first of all, can you tell us where the Zadruga building is

 7     located in Dalj?

 8        A.   Well, it's about a hundred metres from the police building in the

 9     direction of the Danube, and about 200 metres from the hall, so it's all

10     very close.

11        Q.   And how far was the TO headquarter from the police building?

12        A.   Well, it's the same because the TO was in the hall and they were

13     all there in that hall, the TO and everyone else -- or, rather, the staff

14     and everyone else.  So it was 100 metres or 200 metres to the police, and

15     then it was about a hundred metres from the police to the other location.

16     So it's all in the same area.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And I apologise, I have one more question to ask you

18     in relation to the previous topic when you were asked about the TO and

19     the police interacting, and you said that you didn't get involved in

20     that.  Now, how did you come to your conclusion earlier when you were

21     asking -- when you were answering questions from the Defence in relation

22     to the TO and its control over the town?  How did you come to that

23     conclusion?

24        A.   Well, whenever something was needed, Pajo had to be asked about

25     the matter.  He was the main person.  And with regard to police issues,

Page 1499

 1     he had to be addressed as well.  So Pajo was the key figure and nothing

 2     could be done without him.  The police couldn't do anything without him

 3     and we in particular, the local inhabitants, could not do anything

 4     without contacting him.

 5        Q.   And when you mean that you couldn't do anything without

 6     contacting him, what was required from him to do something?

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, objection.  At some point

 8     questions do get a little too vague, and I think that one was extremely

 9     vague.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let me try to rephrase, Your Honour.

11        Q.   You told us the local inhabitants couldn't do anything without

12     contacting him.  What kind of things was Mr. Milovanovic contacted about?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What kind of topics or issues would people go to with him?

15        A.   Well, whenever something was needed.  If you want to cross over,

16     you needed to get his authorisation.  If you wanted to do something at

17     home, if you had to perform work outside the territory of the village,

18     you had to inform him so that they knew where you were.  So it was

19     nothing of great consequence but you had to contact him so that he knew

20     where you were and so that he was aware of the fact that you were going

21     somewhere and so on.

22        Q.   Very well.  Now you told -- you answered earlier to my learned

23     friend's questions that you joined the TO in October; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Between the attack on the 1st of August and the time you joined


Page 1500

 1     the TO in October, how many times did you interact with Mr. Milovanovic?

 2        A.   I didn't have much contact with him.  It was only when necessary.

 3     For example, if someone had been killed and had to be buried, well, then

 4     on such occasions, yes, I would have contact with him.  Perhaps on two or

 5     three occasions, because I worked in the company, we worked throughout

 6     the day, so I didn't have time to move around.  Work started at 6.00 or

 7     7.00 in the morning, so I didn't have much contact with him.  But if he

 8     needed me, well, then, yes, he might contact me.

 9        Q.   Thank you for answering my questions, Mr. Miladinovic.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's all I ask, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Miladinovic, I have just one question of you.

14     At page 50, line 4, of today's transcript, you answered a question about

15     the non-Serbs who left Dalj and went to Osijek from Aljmas with that

16     ship.  My question is:  Where did that ship come from?  Who organised it

17     for those people to be able to board it and go to Osijek?

18        A.   I don't know.  It was only later when the Croats returned that we

19     heard that there was a ship waiting in Aljmas.  And when the attack

20     started that morning, because the area where the Croats are in a majority

21     is a little separate, but that entire area withdrew in the direction of

22     Aljmas, and they then boarded the ship.  But I don't know who organised

23     all of this.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             Sir, we thank you for your coming to The Hague to assist the


Page 1501

 1     Tribunal with your testimony.  You are now released as a witness and the

 2     usher will escort you out of the courtroom, and we wish you a safe

 3     journey back home.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We have more or less ten minutes left.  Is there

 7     anything we can do for the moment?  Any questions, requests, procedural

 8     matters?

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, the next witness can start

10     tomorrow morning.  There are no procedural matters from our side.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Nothing from the Defence?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Nothing, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day

16                           of November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.