Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1639

 1                           Monday, 26 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

11     starting with the Prosecution.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I'm Lisa Biersay on

13     behalf of the Prosecution, and with me, we have Case Manager

14     Thomas Laugel as well as my colleague Matthew Gillett.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

17     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic, we understand that

19     there is an issue we have to address.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Sorry.  Yes, Your Honour.

21     Mr. Hadzic would address to the Chamber in private session, please, for

22     some --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 1640











11 Pages 1640-1642 redacted. Private session.
















Page 1643

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There are no protective measures for this

10     witness?

11             MS. BIERSAY:  No, Your Honour.  Just to give the Court an idea of

12     the schedule today, I will be conducting the direct for the first

13     witness.  My colleague Ms. Clanton will be conducting the direct for the

14     second witness, and the third witness will be handled by my colleague

15     Ms. Dennehy.  Then I will return for the last witness of the week.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  And if I may seek the Court's guidance on one

18     matter.  It pertains to which statements are part of the witness's 92 ter

19     package.  In our motion we had asked that his 1995 statement, as well as

20     the one-page de minimis supplement be part of his package, and if that

21     were granted, we would only use 30 minutes.  And if we were only allowed

22     to proceed with the 1995 statement, we would ask for 45 minutes in order

23     to get those corrections on the record.  And I read the decision as

24     permitting us to tender both the statement and the supplement, but in an

25     abundance of caution, I wanted to make sure that I understood that


Page 1644

 1     correctly.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           [Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And for the Court's reference, that would be tab 1

 5     and tab 3.  There is a tab 2 as well.  That's the numbered -- the one

 6     with numbered paragraphs.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You read the decision correctly, Ms. Biersay.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I take it you can hear me in a language you

12     understand.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell us your name

15     and your date of birth and your ethnicity, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zeljko Cirba.  I was born on the

17     3rd of January, 1964.  I'm a Croat.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to read the solemn

19     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  With

20     this solemn declaration, you expose yourself to the penalty of perjury

21     should you give misleading or untruthful information to the Tribunal.

22     Would you now please read the solemn declaration the usher will give you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very well.  You may be seated.


Page 1645

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           WITNESS:  ZELJKO CIRBA

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

 6                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

 7        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Cirba.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   You can hear me well?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And are you comfortable where you're seated?

12        A.   I am.  Thank you.

13        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to 1995.  Do you remember

14     meeting with representatives from the Tribunal's Office of the

15     Prosecutor?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And as a result of that meeting, do you remember signing a

18     written statement?

19        A.   I do.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Turning now to tab 1.  May I please ask the

21     Registrar to display the English original of 65 ter 2228, which is dated

22     16 December 1995.

23        Q.   Mr. Cirba, if I could direct your attention to the screen before

24     you.  Do you recognise that document, the one on your right?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 1646

 1        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

 2        A.   This is the statement that I provided to the investigators of

 3     this Tribunal.

 4        Q.   If I could direct your attention to the bottom of that page.  Do

 5     you see a signature that you recognise?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And whose signature do you recognise?

 8        A.   My own.

 9        Q.   Did you sign each page of this statement?

10        A.   I did.

11        Q.   And in preparation for your appearance today, have you had an

12     opportunity to review a translation of this statement in a language that

13     you understand?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When you reviewed your statement in your language, did you find

16     anything that you wanted to correct?

17        A.   There were a few corrections that I wanted to make, and we did

18     make them.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Turning now to tab 2.  May I please ask the

20     registry for 65 ter 2228.1, which is the same as 65 ter 2228 but with

21     handwritten paragraph numbers.  And may I ask for some assistance, if

22     it's agreeable to counsel, to provide Mr. Cirba with a hard copy of the

23     numbered statement.  Thank you.

24             And for the benefit of the Court, we will first go to page 5 in

25     the English, which is page 4 in the B/C/S.

Page 1647

 1        Q.   Mr. Cirba, directing your attention to paragraph 14.  Do you have

 2     paragraph 14 before you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And towards the end of that paragraph, there is a sentence in

 5     parentheses:  "(The Serbs always fired at the cars passing there.)"  Did

 6     you want to change the word "always"?

 7        A.   Yes.  I wanted to replace it with the word "often."

 8        Q.   Now directing your attention to paragraph 31, which is page 9 in

 9     the English version and page 7 in your version, Mr. Cirba.  In that

10     paragraph you mention that Mato Sabljak was abducted from Lovas and that

11     he was still missing.  Do you have more current information on

12     Mr. Sabljak?

13        A.   That's correct.  He was found in a mass grave, and then he was

14     buried in Lovas.

15        Q.   And when was his body found?  If you remember.

16        A.   I don't know exactly when that was.  In any case, it was after

17     the 1998.

18        Q.   Now, directing your attention to May of this year, did you meet

19     with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor to review the very

20     statement that you're looking at?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Turning now to tab 3.  May I please ask the

23     registry for 65 ter 2790, the English original dated 10 May 2012, the

24     first page, please.

25        Q.   Do you recognise the document that's being displayed on the right

Page 1648

 1     side?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

 4        A.   This is a supplement to my statement, the one that I provided to

 5     the investigators of The Hague Tribunal.

 6        Q.   And again directing your attention to the bottom of the page, do

 7     you recognise any of the signatures there?

 8        A.   Yes, my own.

 9        Q.   Have you reviewed this supplement in your language?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And was the supplement accurate?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And with the corrections that you made to the 1995 statement, is

14     that accurate as well?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   If you were asked questions about the material contained in the

17     2012 clarification and in your 1995 statement, would you provide in

18     substance the same information?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Are these two statements truthful?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders

23     65 ter 2228, which is the 1995 statement, as well as 2228.1, which is the

24     version with paragraph numbers added, and finally 2790, which is the

25     2012 supplement.

Page 1649

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the original statement 2228 shall

 3     be assigned Exhibit Number P287.

 4             The statement with numbered paragraphs 2228.1 shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit Number P288.

 6             And the supplement statement under 65 ter 2790 shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit Number P289.  Thank you.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cirba, I'd now like to ask you some questions about your

10     written evidence.  First I'd like to direct your attention to

11     paragraph 32, and in paragraph 32, you describe a mass grave at the

12     Catholic cemetery in Lovas.  When did you first receive information about

13     that mass grave?

14        A.   In 1991 and 1992.

15        Q.   And when was the exhumation of that mass grave actually

16     conducted?

17        A.   In 1997, in the month of June or perhaps July.

18        Q.   And why did it take so long to have the exhumation carried out?

19        A.   That part of the state was under occupation.  Therefore, no

20     exhumations were possible at the time.

21        Q.   And when you say "occupation," by whom?

22        A.   By the Yugoslav People's Army.  At that time, the Serbs had

23     proclaimed the so-called Krajina.

24        Q.   Now, did you attend this exhumation, any portions of it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1650

 1        Q.   And why was that?  Why did you attend?

 2        A.   I was the head of the municipality, and as the head of that

 3     municipality, I did not attend only that exhumation.  I was also in

 4     Lovas, Tovarnik, Vukovar, Jelas, and in many other places where

 5     exhumations took place.

 6        Q.   Could you spell the name of the village that you gave after

 7     Vukovar.  Is it Jelas?  Did I say that correctly?

 8        A.   Jelas is actually a forest near Lovas.  One mass grave was

 9     discovered there at the beginning of 1998, one was discovered at the end

10     of 1998, and a few individual graves.  In Tovarnik there was a mass

11     grave.  In Vukovar there was a big mass grave containing over 900 bodies,

12     and there were quite a few individual graves in Lovas, in the place

13     itself, at the cemetery, in the houses, and we also found bodies

14     scattered around the village of Lovas.

15        Q.   Do you know whether these bodies were identified?

16        A.   Yes, most of them.

17        Q.   And do you know the ethnicity of the people who were recovered,

18     the bodies that were recovered?

19        A.   In Lovas there were mostly Croats and other non-Serbs, namely,

20     Hungarians and others.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Turning now to tab 15, may I ask the registry for

22     65 ter 2222.

23        Q.   Do you recognise this document, Mr. Cirba?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

Page 1651

 1        A.   This is a list of the villagers of Lovas who were buried in a

 2     mass grave.

 3        Q.   Is that the same mass grave that you discuss in paragraph 32 of

 4     your statement?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could go to the next page, please.

 7        Q.   How many bodies were recovered from this mass grave?

 8        A.   Sixty-eight.

 9        Q.   Now, I direct your attention to page 2 of this exhibit, and I

10     note that there are 66 names.  Which names are missing from this list?

11        A.   A person named Kucinic from Tovarnik, and Ante Luketic from

12     Sotin.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2222

14     into evidence.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P290.  Thank you.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, turning to tab 8, may I ask the registry for

18     65 ter 2223.  And this is a 92 ter package associated exhibit.  And if we

19     could focus on the first name, Jonak Rudolf.

20        Q.   Mr. Cirba, this document lists Rudolf Jonak as being buried in a

21     mass grave.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Was he found in a mass grave?

24        A.   No.  He was found at the entrance to the graveyard, to the left.

25     Immediately to the left.

Page 1652

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, we won't tender that at this moment as

 2     it will be an associated exhibit and admitted that way.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Cirba, I'd like to direct your attention to your

 4     discussions in your statement about people who were fleeing from other

 5     villages and coming to Lovas.  From which villages were people fleeing?

 6        A.   People were fleeing from Sotina, Berko [as interpreted],

 7     Tovarnik, Ilaca, Tompojevac [as interpreted] and many other places.

 8        Q.   Could you spell the name of the place that you said after Sotina.

 9     Is it Berak or is it something else?

10        A.   Berak, B-e-r-a-k.

11        Q.   And what was the majority ethnicity of those villages you've just

12     listed?

13        A.   The majority were Croatian, but there was a part where it was

14     mixed.  There were more Croats, but there were some Serbs.  In Sotin

15     there were more Croats than Serbs, but there were other ethnic groups and

16     so on and so forth.  In all the places I have mentioned, the majority

17     were Croats, non-Serbs.

18        Q.   When the Croats fled to Lovas from Sotina, did they explain what

19     was happening in Sotina that made them leave?

20        A.   They were afraid, because the Yugo army had infiltrated the area.

21     There was shelling.  There were casualties.  Some people came to harm.

22     People fled to Lovas because they were afraid, and they wanted to go

23     beyond that area and reach Croatia.

24        Q.   And when you say "the Yugo army," what do you mean by that?

25        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 1653

 1        Q.   Speaking of Sotin, were you in Sotin for any event in July or

 2     August of 1991?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And what was the occasion?

 5        A.   There was a funeral of a citizen whose name I think was

 6     Drazen Luketic.

 7        Q.   And what happened when you went to this funeral?

 8        A.   There were planes flying over Sotin.  They opened fire,

 9     machine-gun fire on the site where the funeral was being held probably in

10     order to scare people.  A rocket was launched on a bus or something like

11     that.  This was on the road leading to Tovarnik or, rather, to the

12     crossroads, to Ilok.  There was a lorry at the crossroads and a bus, and

13     a rocket was launched at it.

14        Q.   Were you able to observe the village of Sotin in September or

15     October of 1991?

16        A.   Yes, very briefly.

17        Q.   What did you see, if anything?

18        A.   Houses that had been fired at, houses hit by shells to a certain

19     extent, and there was almost no one in the street.  So the people who had

20     remained there were afraid, and unfortunately, many casualties were

21     subsequently sustained.

22        Q.   When the Croats fled to Lovas from Ilaca, did they explain what

23     was happening in Ilaca that made them leave?

24        A.   It was because of the same things that happened in Sotina.  The

25     damage that was inflicted, the destruction.

Page 1654

 1        Q.   When Croats fled to Lovas from Berak, did they explain what was

 2     happening in Berak to make them leave?

 3        A.   The reason was the same:  Destruction, detaining people, killing

 4     people, fear.

 5        Q.   And when the Croats fled to Lovas from Tovarnik, did they explain

 6     what was happening in Tovarnik that made them leave?

 7        A.   The reason is the same as in the case of these other places I

 8     have mentioned.  There were a lot of casualties, aggression.  Many people

 9     were killed.  The tragedy was immense.  There was a lot of fear.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  May I ask the registry how much time I have

11     remaining.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Shall we ask the Registrar how much you used?

13             MS. BIERSAY:  I think I could do the math that way as well,

14     Your Honour.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has used 24 minutes

16     so far.  Thank you.

17             MS. BIERSAY:

18        Q.   On -- at some point in October, you -- as you describe in your

19     statement, you left and went to Ilok; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And on the 17th of October, 1991, you left Ilok as well; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   When you were in Ilok for the time that you were there, were

25     there other Croats who had fled from other areas and were now in Ilok?

Page 1655

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And could you describe for the Trial Chamber from which villages

 3     you learned that these Croats were coming from?

 4        A.   Croats had come and non-Serbs as well from Sotina, Lovas,

 5     Tovarnik, Ilaca, Tompojevac, Bapska, Sarengrad, Mohova, and many other

 6     places.

 7        Q.   And do you know why they came to Ilok?

 8        A.   They went to Ilok because they were afraid to remain in their

 9     places, because of fear.  The same things happened in Berak, Sotina,

10     Tovarnik, Ilaca, and unfortunately, in Lovas later on.  People were

11     afraid.  The places would be infiltrated.  I'm referring to the Yugo army

12     again and their cronies.  They would destroy the place.  Many people came

13     to harm and finally they were driven out, so they went there because they

14     were afraid.

15        Q.   And why Ilok and not somewhere else?

16        A.   They couldn't go any further.  Everything was blocked off, cut

17     off.  Ilok was the last place people would reach.  It was a mousetrap, as

18     I have said.  It wasn't possible to go any further.

19        Q.   Can you approximate the number of people who left Ilok when you

20     did on the 17th of October, 1991?

21        A.   It's difficult for me to give an estimate.  It would be between

22     10- and 15.000, in my opinion.

23        Q.   And could you describe the scene of that mass departure to the

24     members of the Trial Chamber.

25        A.   People were told that a convoy was setting out in the morning,


Page 1656

 1     and people then arrived in the area of the vicinity of the bridge.  They

 2     were searched there.  There were some sort of lists, and some people were

 3     separated.  People then entered cars, buses, lorries, tractors with

 4     trailers, whatever they had available, and they went to Croatia via

 5     Lipovac.  It was terrible and very sad.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time I have no further questions, and I

 7     have no further time, I think.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, how about the 92 ter package?  Are

11     you tendering it?

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So the Registrar will mark them and

14     circulate a memo about it.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Cirba.  My name is

20     Zoran Zivanovic, and I am defending Goran Hadzic in these proceedings.

21        A.   Good day.

22        Q.   Mr. Cirba, in your statement, I noticed that you weren't present

23     in Lovas when this incident with the minefield occurred.

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And I also saw that you weren't in Lovas when the

Page 1657

 1     Yugoslav People's Army and, as you said, their cronies or helpers, when

 2     they launched an attack on Lovas on the 1st of October, they shelled it

 3     and they entered Lovas.

 4        A.   The attack on Lovas was on the 1st of October.  I was there on

 5     that occasion.

 6        Q.   I apologise.  I didn't mean the 1st of October.  I meant the

 7     10th of October.

 8        A.   Correct.  You are right.

 9        Q.   On the 10th of October you weren't in Lovas, when there was the

10     shelling and when the JNA entered Lovas.

11        A.   Correct.  I wasn't in Lovas on the 10th of October, but in the

12     previous period when there was the shelling of the church and so on and

13     so forth, I was there.

14        Q.   You told us in your statement that in 1990, at the first freely

15     held elections in Lovas, the Croatian Democratic Alliance won the

16     election, the HDZ?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   You said that after the elections, you became the president of

19     the Lovas local commune.

20        A.   Of the Assembly of the local commune.

21        Q.   The Assembly of the local commune.  At the time you were a member

22     of the HDZ?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you said that the situation in Lovas, the political

25     atmosphere, in fact, was calm, but the Serbs and the former Communist

Page 1658

 1     delegates were boycotting the newly elected authorities.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Mr. Cirba, I have some information here that relates to that

 4     period in Lovas.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 2803 is the number of the exhibit

 6     on our list.  It's exhibit number 1.  I don't think it is necessary to

 7     broadcast it to the public.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me for interrupting.  I just wanted to make

10     sure I understood the procedure.  As the Trial Chamber will note, this is

11     a -- is it counsel's intention to broadcast the document to the witness?

12     And if so, we would oppose that.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think it -- in my opinion, it should not be

14     shown to the public and to the witness.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, Mr. Zivanovic, we'll do that.  Just one

17     moment.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And I also understand that the person from whom the

19     statement originates will not be identified to the witness.  I understood

20     that was our protocol for using these types of documents.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  I wouldn't do that.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] We have information according to which sometime

25     in the second half of April or perhaps at the end of April 1990, a

Page 1659

 1     meeting was held in the village of Bogdanovci, a meeting of local HDZ

 2     representatives.  It was convened by Tomislav Mercep.  Do you know

 3     anything about this?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Could you tell us whether you attended that meeting?

 6        A.   It wasn't a meeting.  It was just a matter of people socialising,

 7     but I was there.

 8        Q.   We also have information according to which during that period

 9     Tomislav Mercep was the coordinator of all HDZ activities in the

10     municipality; is that correct?

11        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't involved in those structures.

12        Q.   According to the other information we have, the meeting was held

13     in the local commune in the village of Bogdanovci, and about

14     30 presidents and vice-presidents of local HDZ branches attended it.

15        A.   No.  I wasn't present at that meeting.

16        Q.   Do you know who attended the meeting from Lovas?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Do you perhaps know Jovo Milas?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell us what he was at the time?  What sort of position

21     did he have in the HDZ?

22        A.   He was president of HDZ, and he was a lawyer.

23        Q.   Do you know Josip Gracanac?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What was he at the time in Lovas?

Page 1660

 1        A.   I don't know.  I think he was -- I don't know.

 2        Q.   Do you know Marin Vidic, aka Bili?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did he have a position of any kind in the HDZ in Lovas?

 5        A.   I think he was a member of the HDZ committee.

 6        Q.   Did any of the persons who attended the meeting inform you of the

 7     subjects discussed at the meeting, what happened at the meeting?  Did

 8     they tell you anything about this?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   At the time, were you in contact with those people or were you on

11     bad terms with them?

12        A.   No.  We were on good terms, but we didn't discuss that subject

13     matter.  As the president of the local commune I was involved in certain

14     other affairs, and it concerned utilities, organisation, and so on and so

15     forth.  That was the work involved in the local commune.

16        Q.   When you say that you were involved in other affairs, what sort

17     of affairs were these people involved in?  Do you know anything about

18     that?

19        A.   You'd have to put that question to them.  They were performing

20     their professional duties.  Mr. Milas was a lawyer.  Mr. Josip was

21     unemployed at the time.  Marin Vidic worked in the community as an

22     agronomist.  That's what I know.

23        Q.   I'm asking you whether you knew what sort of things they did as

24     HDZ members.  I'm not asking you about their normal duties.

25        A.   I said they were HDZ members.  There was an HDZ committee, but I

Page 1661

 1     wasn't present at the meeting, so I don't know.  I wasn't a member of the

 2     committee.

 3        Q.   If they didn't inform you, did anyone else inform you of the fact

 4     that on that occasion Tomislav Mercep - I'm speaking about the meeting in

 5     Bogdanovci - Tomislav Mercep said that according to the instructions he

 6     had received from the central HDZ organs in Osijek, the HDZ would be

 7     subject to military organisation?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Do you know that at the time a decision was taken according to

10     which some sort of technical service was to be established as part of

11     this idea?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And as for a military service?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   As for a medical service?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   According to the information in my possession, after the meeting

18     in Bogdanovci, a meeting was held in the village of Lovas, and it was

19     attended by certain individuals.  I'll ask you whether you know them.

20     Mijo Kolic or, rather, Nikolic?

21        A.   I know Kolic not Nikolic.

22        Q.   I apologise.  Franjo Krizmanic?

23        A.   I know him.

24        Q.   Branko Krizmanic?

25        A.   I know him.

Page 1662

 1        Q.   Josip Badnjak?

 2        A.   Badnjak, no.  Badanjak perhaps.

 3        Q.   Badanjak, I apologise.  Josip Filic?

 4        A.   I know him.

 5        Q.   Ivo Madzarevic?

 6        A.   I know him.

 7        Q.   Keser also known as Braca?

 8        A.   I think I know whom you are talking about, but I'm not sure.

 9        Q.   Tomislav Rendulic?

10        A.   I know him.

11        Q.   And Franjo Mujic?

12        A.   I know him.

13        Q.   And do you know that these people and the three persons I

14     mentioned earlier on then went about establishing a military, technical

15     and medical service in the village of Lovas?

16        A.   No.  I'm not aware of that.

17        Q.   You told us that the village of Lovas had about

18     1.400 inhabitants, I believe.  1.441 -- 1.661, I apologise, at the time,

19     and 1.441 of them were Croats?

20        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

21        Q.   Could you tell us approximately how many HDZ members there were

22     in Lovas?

23        A.   I don't know.  I don't know that information.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  "You told us that

25     there were 1.681 inhabitants," not 1.661.

Page 1663

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

 2        Q.   Could you tell us the following.  You were the president of the

 3     local commune in Lovas at the time.  Many people from the HDZ were

 4     involved in these activities I have been describing and you knew nothing

 5     about it.  How is that possible in such a small place?  How can such a

 6     thing happen?

 7        A.   I was involved in the duties I have told you about.  Up until

 8     Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May -- well, after that event the

 9     Crisis Staff -- a Crisis Staff was established.  I was a member of the

10     Crisis Staff then, and then I had more information on the situation in

11     the village and contact with the Serbs that I have mentioned.  We had a

12     lot of such contact up until that point in time, and as the president of

13     the local commune, I together with all the other inhabitants of the

14     village strove to ensure that nothing happened in Lovas.  So after the

15     HDZ victory in Lovas, all the Serbs who had certain official positions

16     retained them.  Moreover, some of these positions were subsequently

17     confirmed.  I have mentioned that.  Nothing ugly happened, and any

18     incident that could have occurred, well, we tried to deal with such

19     incidents.  That concerned going to negotiations, daily contact that was

20     established, and this was very important, I think.  All we wanted was

21     peace.  We didn't want harm to come to anyone.  We wanted to protect each

22     other.  And I was also referring to the meeting with Mr. Lovric.

23        Q.   With regard to these activities that I mentioned, they took place

24     in April.  The event in Borovo village was on the 2nd of May, and these

25     preparations, I assume, occurred before the events in Borovo village.

Page 1664

 1     But what I want to ask you is the following:  When you say that a

 2     Crisis Staff was established after the events in Borovo village at the

 3     beginning of May, let's say --

 4        A.   In the course of May.

 5        Q.   In the course of May, yes.  Sir, did that Crisis Staff have a

 6     technical service, a medical service, a military service?

 7        A.   The Crisis Staff had to ensure that everyone in Lovas protected

 8     each other.  That was its main role, and the members of the Crisis Staff,

 9     Mr. Krizmanic, Mr. Rendulic, myself, and many others frequently attended

10     meetings, went to negotiations, spoke with people, tried to calm things

11     down.  We quite simply wanted to ensure that peace prevailed in the

12     village of Lovas.  We didn't want any harm to come to anyone.  We all

13     strove to achieve this objective, and no Serbs came to harm of any kind.

14     Especially when people were coming from villages that had been torched,

15     when there were people who were being killed, people passing through

16     cornfields with their young children to reach our place, all we did was

17     to try to ensure that no harm came to anyone.  That was our priority, but

18     naturally there were also guards that had been set up around the place.

19     We had summoned all the inhabitants of Lovas to join in and to ensure

20     that we were able to protect each other.

21        Q.   Tell me, please, were some lists of people compiled at the time,

22     and those were the people that would be involved in the protection of the

23     village?

24        A.   Yes.  There were guards around the village, at the entrance to

25     the village.  Sometimes they were mounted, sometimes not, but those

Page 1665

 1     guards existed in the entire municipality of Vukovar.  The -- we were

 2     afraid that somebody might storm into the village and cause problems.

 3     Those guards were very benevolent.  They let people through and really no

 4     harm ever came to anybody, as far as I know at least.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, are you still trying to get an

 6     answer to your question whether that Crisis Staff had a medical service,

 7     a technical service and a military service?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, yeah.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You're still on that topic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you this:  Within the

12     Crisis Staff was there a technical service?

13        A.   Within the framework of the Crisis Staff there was no technical

14     service.  If you're asking about a medical service, yes, we did have a

15     doctor, Dr. Kacar, who was a Serb.  He was a very fair person, very, very

16     fair.  And together with a few women who were nurses and who wanted to

17     assist him, they worked in the old school as of the end of September, and

18     they helped people who had arrived from Tovarnik and who were wounded

19     there.  So they were administered first aid and all the other necessary

20     medical service.

21        Q.   Very well.  That was in the month of September, but we are still

22     talking about the months of April and May.  According to the information

23     that I have, in the village of Lovas, the head of the medical service was

24     Franjo Mujic and then Branko Krizmanic.

25        A.   I've never heard that before.  Dr. Kacar was the head of our

Page 1666

 1     medical service.  He was the only doctor that we had, so he was the only

 2     one capable of occupying that position.  The other two are not doctors,

 3     those people who you have just mentioned.  One is an electrician, and the

 4     other is a worker in a company, a maintenance worker.

 5        Q.   According to the information that we have, the task of the

 6     medical service was to get supplies for being able to assist the wounded

 7     in the future.  They were tasked with obtaining medicines and medical

 8     supplies that would be necessary in case of a future conflict.  However,

 9     my question is this:  Those two, were they members of the Crisis Staff,

10     Franjo Mujic and Branko Krizmanic?

11        A.   I'm not sure.  I don't know.  I believe that there were

12     12 members of the Crisis Staff.  I can remember some of them off the top

13     of my head, and as of -- for the others, my memory would have to be

14     jogged.

15        Q.   What about Markica Gracanac or Marko Gracanac, was he a member of

16     the Crisis Staff?

17        A.   I can tell you the names of those that I remember.  Jozo Milas,

18     Mr. Madzarevic, Mr. Rendulic, Mr. Krizmanic, myself, Djuka Filic, and

19     several others.  Twelve altogether, but my memory would have to be

20     jogged.  It is possible that the gentleman that you've just mentioned was

21     also a member, but I don't remember.

22        Q.   When you said Madzarevic, did you mean Ivo Madzarevic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   What were his tasks in the staff?  According to the information

25     that I have, he was the head of the military service in Lovas?

Page 1667

 1        A.   No.  It wasn't a military service.  There was no military

 2     service.  However, he was one of the men who assigned people to the guard

 3     duty.  All citizens - Croats, Serbs, and Hungarians - were invited to

 4     join the village guard.  Some of the Serbs did indeed join, because we

 5     had explained to them that we wanted to keep watch and guard each other

 6     and protect each other.  That's how things were.

 7        Q.   According to the information that we have, the military service

 8     that was set up after the meeting in the village of Bogdanovci was

 9     supposed to train the armed members of the HDZ and to build a concept of

10     warfare in the municipality of Vukovar in case the independent state of

11     Croatia was not established peacefully.  That's the information we have.

12        A.   Unfortunately, I don't share the same information.  I don't know

13     anything about that.

14        Q.   I apologise.  Ivo Madzarevic was not the head of the military but

15     of the technical service, and Marko Gracanac was the head of the military

16     service according to the information that we have.

17        A.   I don't know anything about that.

18        Q.   Since you were a member of the HDZ in Lovas, can you remember how

19     many Serbs were members of the same party?

20        A.   Several, as far as I can remember.

21        Q.   How come that only a few Serbs joined the HDZ, why not more?

22        A.   I don't know.

23        Q.   As a member of the HDZ and as the president of the local commune

24     in the village of Lovas, were you not interested in finding out?

25        A.   My job was different.  My job was to treat everybody equally, and

Page 1668

 1     I did at the time.  I do now.  When I was the president of the local

 2     commune and the president of the municipality and now that I'm the deputy

 3     prefect of the county, Partisan membership is everybody's right, and

 4     everybody can join any party or not join any party at all.  That's

 5     everybody's choice.

 6        Q.   Well, when you advocated the equality of all the citizens

 7     irrespective of their ethnic affiliation, did it not strike you as odd

 8     that there is a disbalance between Croatian HDZ membership and the Serb

 9     membership of the HDZ?

10        A.   At the time there were other parties as well, so the citizens

11     could opt for any of them.  There was the HSLS, the Peasants' Party, and

12     many other parties existed.  So not everybody was a member of the HDZ.

13     Just as today people have every right to be members of any party or not

14     to have any party affiliation at all.

15        Q.   At that time you were on good terms with all the citizens of the

16     Serb ethnicity who resided in Lovas, I assume.

17        A.   Yes, I was.

18        Q.   You had frequent contacts, both official and non-official.

19        A.   Of course.  We played football together.  We talked.  We

20     socialised.  We worked together.  Everything was normal.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear from them, that they had objections towards the

22     HDZ and its policies?

23        A.   No, never.  We talked about things that were more important at

24     the time.  When there was no imminent threat of war, we had other

25     problems that we had to deal with concerning electricity, water, rubbish

Page 1669

 1     collection, roads and things like that.  Later on we talked not once

 2     about ways to protect each other.  For example, when women and children

 3     were sent to the coast, everybody went, Serbs and Croats.  When we had

 4     talks with Mr. Lovric, we were all there and we said to both ethnicities

 5     that nothing should happen to them.  When the members of the guard

 6     arrived in Lovas in July, they did not encounter a single problem.  No

 7     houses were searched.  Nothing happened.  And everybody knows that well,

 8     and if they want to tell the story correctly and in a fair manner, that's

 9     what they're going to tell you.

10        Q.   I apologise.  I'm still talking about the months of April and

11     May 1991.  Do you know that the Crisis Staff or one of its services at

12     that time obtained two kilos of explosives?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know that at the time the manufacture of explosives was

15     organised in Lovas?

16        A.   No, I don't know that.

17        Q.   Did you ever hear that some explosive devices were used to

18     intimidate the Serbian population in Lovas?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, there was one incident.  Somebody threw

20     something into Mr. Devcic's courtyard.  I believe that that was all.

21     There was no damage.  We don't know what happened.  The police were

22     called.  They did their job, and I don't know what the result of the

23     investigation was.  That's all I know about incident.  Although you did

24     not ask me, I believe that there was a farm belonging to a man whose name

25     I can't remember in the direction of Vukovar.  There was a problem there,

Page 1670

 1     but I don't know what that problem was.  Every time the police

 2     intervened, I don't know the outcome of any of the investigations.  After

 3     those incidents again we sat down, we discussed the situation.  We

 4     condemned those incidents and the perpetrators thereof and we insisted

 5     that the police should be called to do their job and to punish those who

 6     were responsible, because those situations were in favour of nobody.

 7     That's why we tried to prevent them and avoid them.  And after that

 8     everything was back to normal.

 9        Q.   Do you know that in July or perhaps in August 1990, 1990, I'm

10     talking about the year 1990, on the premises of the Vukovar HDZ, a

11     meeting of the Municipal Board of the HDZ was held pursuant to the

12     instruction -- instructions of the central HDZ board in Osijek, and that

13     meeting was called by Tomislav Mercep?  Do you know anything about that?

14        A.   No, I don't.  At that time, I was merely a member of the party,

15     nothing else.  I was not a member of any party structure at a higher

16     level.  I was just a member of the organisation.

17        Q.   Do you know that already at that time a decision was taken about

18     the establishment of volunteer detachments?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You don't know either, I suppose, that the main criterion for

21     recruiting people into those volunteer detachments was that they were

22     supporters of the HDZ in its endeavour to create an independent state of

23     Croatia.

24        A.   No, I don't know that.

25        Q.   Was that the political option of the HDZ, to create an

Page 1671

 1     independent state of Croatia?

 2        A.   The political option of all the citizens of Croatia was to create

 3     a state.  At the beginning there would have been a confederation of

 4     Yugoslavia.  I don't know the details.  Those were political negotiations

 5     at the very top of the state.  We did not have a say in any of that, nor

 6     did anybody actually consult us about any of that.

 7        Q.   When you say that the political option of all the citizens of

 8     Croatia was to create an independent state of Croatia, do you also imply

 9     Serbs?

10        A.   Sir, there was a referendum, and the referendum showed how many

11     citizens wanted an independent state.  I believe that the result was

12     about 90-plus per cent.  That means that the citizens of Croatia were

13     invited to participate in the referendum and decide on that, and based on

14     that, I conclude that that was the will of the majority.  You can check

15     the result, obviously.  Some didn't participate, some voted differently,

16     but a majority was in favour of creating an independent state of Croatia.

17        Q.   No.  I'm just asking about what you know.  According to what you

18     knew at the time, how did Serb -- Serbs vote in the referendum?  Did they

19     also opt for the independent state of Croatia?  I believe that there were

20     over 10 per cent of Serbs residing in Croatia at the time.

21        A.   I really don't know how people voted.  It was a secret ballot.

22     You could just say yes or no, and you did it secretly, unbeknownst to

23     others.

24        Q.   So when you answered that all Croatians of citizens -- all

25     Croatian citizens were in favour of an independent state of Croatia, you

Page 1672

 1     can't say exactly how many were against, how many did not participate and

 2     what the position of the Serbs was?  Am I right?

 3        A.   I told you that everybody could vote in the referendum.  Every

 4     citizen of Croatia was invited to vote the way they wanted.  There is

 5     information as to how many voted, how many voted against, how many voted

 6     in favour, and how many did not participate in the referendum.  I can

 7     tell you exactly how I voted.  I don't know how the others did.

 8        Q.   Did you hear at the time that the Serbs actually boycotted that

 9     referendum, that the Serbian political parties invited the Serbs to

10     boycott the referendum and that the Serbs really did not vote in that

11     referendum?

12        A.   I don't remember.

13        Q.   Do you know that in 1990, in the months of either July or August

14     when a decision was taken -- or, rather, did you observe that in your

15     midst that there was an increased demand for permits to carry weapons?

16     Did you notice that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Do you know that a certain number of citizens from Lovas reported

19     to join those volunteer detachments?

20        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say "volunteer detachments."

21        Q.   A while ago I said that at a meeting in Vukovar there was a

22     decision according to which volunteer detachments were to be established.

23     That was August 1990.  And HDZ supporters were to be members, and they

24     were to be armed.  I'd like to know whether you heard that in July or

25     August and subsequently that such a volunteer detachment was established.

Page 1673

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   We have information according to which Marko Gracanac formed such

 3     a detachment in Lovac with 120 members.  Since you lived in Lovas, is it

 4     possible that you were not aware of fact?

 5        A.   You mean there were 120 men bearing arms or they were members of

 6     the detachment?  I don't understand what your question is.

 7        Q.   I'll repeat my question.  I said that Marko Gracanac established

 8     such a detachment with 120 members.

 9        A.   I'm not aware of that.

10        Q.   Have you heard that in 1990, it was suggested that force should

11     be used to dispel a meeting that was to be held by the Serbian Democratic

12     Party on the 1st of May at the Adica site, the Adica tourist site?

13        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

14        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that in April and May 1990, at meetings

15     of the HDZ Municipal Committee initiative was launched to establish a

16     certain amount of control over the Serbian population in the territory of

17     Vukovar municipality, and Lovas is part of that municipality?

18        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I said that I was not a member of any

19     committee.

20        Q.   But you were an HDZ member.  I assume that you also had certain

21     duties as a party member, especially since you were later elected to

22     become president of the local commune, I assume that it was on the basis

23     of the results that you attained in the HDZ.

24        A.   Yes, but I wasn't a member of the committee, of any committees,

25     and I have described my duties, the duties that I performed during the

Page 1674

 1     period that you're referring to.

 2        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that in the village of Bogdanovci, a

 3     review of the volunteer troops was held?

 4        A.   I saw that on television, but as to what exactly happened --

 5        Q.   That was in September 1990.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Are you aware of the fact that there was a review of a volunteer

 8     detachment in Lovas?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   According to the information we have, it's not only that there

11     was such a review but the entire HDZ Executive Committee was present.

12        A.   I'm not aware of any reviews.

13        Q.   Do you know that buses and cars were used to transport a

14     detachment from Lovas with volunteers to go to the review in Bogdanovci?

15        A.   I don't know how many people went.  There were probably some

16     people who went.  As to whether it was a review or meeting, what exactly

17     happened, I don't know.

18        Q.   According to the information we have, between 1.500 and

19     2.000 volunteers participated in that review from various places, not

20     just from Lovas.

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   Another question:  At the time you worked in Lovas?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Where?

25        A.   In the agricultural cooperative Lovas.

Page 1675

 1        Q.   Do you know that at the time the Lovas agricultural cooperative

 2     provided cash loans to members of the HDZ?

 3        A.   That's the first time I've heard about that.

 4        Q.   In that same cooperative, Jozo Milas worked with you.

 5        A.   Yes.  He was a lawyer.  I was a trainee agronomist.  I worked for

 6     a year and my contract was then terminated.

 7        Q.   According to the information we have, the agricultural

 8     cooperative in Lovas then handed out cash loans to a certain number of

 9     HDZ members who were at the same time members of a volunteer detachment.

10     Officially the loan was to be used to buy livestock or agricultural

11     equipment, but in fact, it was agreed that the money should be used to

12     buy weapons.  Do you know anything about this?

13        A.   No.  The Lovas cooperative, like many other cooperatives,

14     provided loans for the agricultural sector and so on and so forth, but

15     I'm not aware of what you have said.

16        Q.   At the time, Rendulic Adam was the director of the cooperative.

17        A.   Yes, that is correct and that is still the case today.

18        Q.   According to our information, as part of this agreement approval

19     was given for 50 or 20 such loans, the amount of which was between 6- to

20     7.000 dinars.  That was the price of a rifle at the time.

21        A.   I don't know.

22        Q.   Do you perhaps know whether Franjo Mujic received a loan of any

23     kind from the agricultural cooperative?

24        A.   I don't know.  I had nothing to do with that.  I was an

25     agronomist and worked in the fields, unfortunately very briefly.

Page 1676

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I think it is the time for the

 2     break.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It is indeed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             Mr. Witness, we take the first break now.  We will come back at

 5     11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cirba, I'll now move on to the period

14     between the 10th and 15th of September, 1991.  Several weeks before the

15     shelling of Lovas, we also have information according to which at that

16     time on the premises of the municipality of Vukovar -- or, rather, in the

17     Secretariat for National Defence weapons were distributed to HDZ members

18     and members of the volunteer detachments.  Do you know anything about

19     this?

20        A.   No, I don't.

21        Q.   According to that information, the following went to those

22     premises to take over weapons from Lovas:  Antun Vidic, Nikica Maric,

23     Mile Hodak, Stipo Filic, Josip Filic, and perhaps some others for whom we

24     don't have precise information.  I would first like to know whether you

25     know these citizens of Lovas.

Page 1677

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know that they received these weapons, that they went to

 3     Vukovar, to the premises of Vukovar municipality, to the premises of the

 4     Secretariat of National Defence in order to receive these weapons?

 5        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

 6        Q.   According to our information, the first two Kalashnikovs that

 7     arrived in Lovas were distributed to Jovo Milas and Josip Gracanac.  This

 8     was in January 1991.  Are you aware of that?

 9        A.   No.  You'd have to ask them about that.

10        Q.   And we have information according to which three or four

11     Kalashnikovs were distributed to members of the HDZ Executive Committee

12     in Lovas.  Are you aware of that?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Here the names mentioned in addition to the two I've already

15     mentioned, the names mentioned are Josip Badanjak, Branko Krizmanic,

16     Franjo Mujic, Ivo Madzarevic, Markica Gracanac, Josip Filic, and

17     Franjo Krizmanic.

18        A.   I know them.

19        Q.   I'll show you another document, D4 on the Defence list.  It's in

20     English but I'll read it out and you will hear the interpretation.  I'll

21     just read out the first paragraph.

22        A.   I apologise.  I just want to put my glasses on.

23        Q.   Yes, no problem.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's not the document.  It's

25     from our list, 1D141.  It's the fourth document on our list.  It's to the

Page 1678

 1     right.

 2        Q.   It's in English and I'll read it out.  The title is:  [In

 3     English] "Army controls Bosut, Danube river territories."

 4             [Interpretation] And I'll only read the first paragraph which I'm

 5     interested in and then we will discuss it.

 6             [In English] "15 October, TANJUG.  All places between the Bosut

 7     and Danube rivers are from today under the control of the Yugoslav

 8     People's Army units and the Serbian reservists, army sources have

 9     stated."

10             [Interpretation] What I would like to know is since at the time,

11     15th of October, you were in the area, not in Lovas but you were in the

12     area, what I'd like to know is whether this information is correct.  Does

13     it reflect the situation on the ground at the time, or at least the

14     situation in the area that you were in at the time?

15        A.   As far as I know, this information is from the 15th of October,

16     1991.

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   Ilok left or fell on the 17th of October, so it wasn't occupied

19     at the time.  I don't know about the other places.  The other places were

20     up to Lovas.  There was Opatovac, everything else was occupied.  Muhovo

21     remained, Sarengrad and Bapska up to Ilok remained.  I'm not sure whether

22     those places were also under occupation or, as it says here, under JNA

23     control.  Ilok wasn't because we left Ilok on the 17th.  I know the other

24     places.

25        Q.   I think this is what it says in the same paragraph.

Page 1679

 1             "[In English] They went on to say that the Croatian forces have

 2     been completely destroyed in this area and are only holding Ilok now.

 3     However, according to an agreement between JNA representatives and the

 4     Croatian forces, the town should be handed over to the army on

 5     17 October."

 6             [Interpretation] Is this the reflection of the situation as it

 7     was at the time?

 8        A.   I know that there were negotiations about Ilok.  However, I don't

 9     know how they went, but I know that we left Ilok on the 17th.  On the

10     15th, Ilok was still in the hands of the Croatian authorities.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document into evidence.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number D15.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we have D3, tab 3, 1D140.  Tab 3.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] My last question, Mr. Cirba, do you know that a

16     trial was on in Belgrade for crimes committed in Lovas against a large

17     group of people?  I believe that you testified in that case, did you not?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   I'm going to read some of names from here and ask you whether you

20     remember them.  Ljuban Devetak, Milan Devcic, Milan Radojcic,

21     Zeljko Krnjaic.  I won't go on.  Is that the case?

22        A.   Yes, that's the case.

23        Q.   According to what you know, were they found guilty and sentenced

24     in that case?

25        A.   We attended the reading of the first instance Trial Chamber

Page 1680

 1     decision.  The 14 accused were all found guilty, but I can't remember how

 2     many years they were each sentenced to.  I don't remember.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document into evidence.  It

 4     is an orally announced judgement, not in the written form, but it is

 5     orally pronounced by the War Crime Chamber of the High Court in Belgrade.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  May I inquire the purpose for which it's being

 8     tendered?  Is it being tendered to show the fact that there was a

 9     judgement or is it being tendered for the substantive information

10     contained in it?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  For both purpose.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  We would object to it being tendered for

13     substantive evidence, but we would not object to it being tendered to

14     show the fact that there was, in fact, a proceeding and the outcome of

15     that proceeding, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I do not understand the point of this objection.

18     I don't know whether the Prosecution stated that these persons are not

19     guilty for this crime described in this judgement, or I really cannot

20     understand the point.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  If I may.  My point is that to the extent that

22     there are substantive issues and fact findings that this Trial Chamber

23     has to make, that this document will not supersede those findings.  So

24     this document, when admitted, we believe should be admitted for the

25     purpose of saying, yes, there was a proceeding, these people were

Page 1681

 1     charged, and they were found guilty, but not for -- and I haven't had a

 2     chance to read it in detail.  Not for all the individual findings that

 3     are made with respect to each person.  That's the nature of the

 4     objection.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could you explain to us the

 7     relevance of the document.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The relevance of this document is in that because

 9     these people were found guilty and convicted for -- both for the attack

10     on Lovas on 10 of October, 1991, and for incident in minefield, which is

11     a part of indictment in this case.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry, Ms. Biersay.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Not a problem, Your Honour.  If that is the purpose

14     for which it is being tendered we do not object to that.  What we would

15     object to is if Mr. Zivanovic pointed to pages 2 or 3 and said, "We

16     believe that the Trial Chamber should accept each and every finding made

17     by another court."  So if it's just the fact of the conviction and the

18     charges, then we do not have an objection.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have never said that this Trial Chamber must

20     accept anything from this -- from this judgement.  It is on you to

21     assess -- to properly assess this evidence.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number D16.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.


Page 1682

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Cirba, I'd like to thank you.  I have no further questions

 3     for you.

 4        A.   Thank you also, thank you.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Redirect, Ms. Biersay.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Very briefly.

 7                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

 8        Q.   I just wanted to ask you, Mr. Cirba, on page 31, line 12, of the

 9     temporary transcript, you mentioned someone named Devcic.  You said

10     something was thrown -- it's not in your statement.  It was when you were

11     testifying and that page number is just so that everyone else knows where

12     it is.  You mentioned the name Devcic.  You said something was thrown in

13     his courtyard.  Do you know the first name of this Devcic?  And the

14     reason --

15        A.   I believe that his first name is Bozo.

16        Q.   So it's just to confirm.  It's not the Mica Devcic that's in your

17     statement at paragraph 17, or is it?

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  It was not part of my cross-examination.

20     I never asked anything about Devcic.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  You're absolutely right.  You did not -- counsel

22     did not ask, but in the witness's response he said the word -- it was

23     thrown in the courtyard of Devcic, and I'm clarifying to whom is he

24     referring.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

Page 1683

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   So what we have on the record is the last name Devcic, and I just

 3     want to know if you know the first name, and if it's related to the

 4     Devcic that's in your statement.

 5        A.   Bozo Devcic.  He is Mica's father, Milan Devcic's father, a Croat

 6     by ethnicity.

 7        Q.   And if I understand you correct, Mica -- when you say the word

 8     "Mica," is that a short name for Milan?

 9        A.   Yes.  I repeat.  We're talking about a Croat, Bozo Devcic.

10     Something was thrown into his courtyard.  I don't know what.  And his son

11     is Milan Devcic.  I suppose that his nickname is Mica, because we knew

12     him as Mica.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Nothing further, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Cirba, this brings your testimony

15     to an end.  We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the

16     Tribunal.  You're now released as a witness.  The court usher will escort

17     you out of the courtroom, and we wish you a safe journey back home.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.  Your Honours, with the Court's

22     permission, I wanted to seek guidance on some proposed 65 ter exhibits.

23     Specifically, we -- in our fifth motion, we sought to add some material.

24     We have spoken to the Defence, and regarding three of the items they do

25     not have any objections.  We anticipate that perhaps we will be using


Page 1684

 1     them for the upcoming witnesses, so I thought I would see with the

 2     Trial Chamber if the Trial Chamber is willing at this time to consider

 3     the admission -- sorry, adding to our 65 ter exhibit list proposed

 4     exhibit 6350, which is a video of some relevant areas in Lovas; 6351,

 5     which are pictures taken at the same time and also of Lovas; and 2508A,

 6     as in apple, which is a photo album.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the Defence does not object; is that right?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So those three documents can be added to your

10     65 ter list, Ms. Biersay.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you very much.  And finally, Your Honours,

12     there are some logistics involved in switching positions with my

13     colleagues, and I just apologise in advance for -- for that.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No problem.

15             Can we bring in the next witness, Ms. Clanton?

16             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  First of all, can you

20     hear me in a language you understand?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell us your name,

23     your date of birth, and your ethnicity.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivan Mujic, 1954, Croat.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1954?  Do you have a precise date?


Page 1685

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of September.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are -- you are about to read the

 3     solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the

 4     truth.  I have to point out to you that by taking that declaration you

 5     expose yourself to the penalty of perjury should you give misleading or

 6     untruthful information to the Tribunal.

 7             Could you now read the solemn declaration, please, the usher will

 8     give you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           WITNESS:  IVAN MUJIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, your witness.

16             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Examination by Ms. Clanton:

18        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mujic.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   If you have any difficulty hearing me, please let the Court know

21     right away.

22             Do you recall giving a statement to investigators of the ICTY?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask that 65 ter 2235, a statement

25     dated the 6th of February, 1996, be placed on the monitor.  This is tab

Page 1686

 1     number 1.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mujic, do you recognise this as the statement you gave?

 3        A.   I do.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  And if we could scroll to the bottom of the first

 5     page in English.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

 7        A.   Yes.  It is my signature.

 8        Q.   And prior to testifying today, did you have an opportunity to

 9     review a translation of this statement in a language that you understand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today that you were asked

12     when you gave the statement, would you give the same answers?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

15     accuracy and truthfulness of this statement?

16        A.   I do.

17             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution tenders

18     65 ter 2235 into evidence.  We would also like to tender 65 ter 2235.1

19     into evidence, which is at tab 2.  This is the same statement of the

20     witness, but we've added paragraph numbers for ease of reference to both

21     the English and B/C/S versions.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, could I just make a suggestion.

23     There won't be any objection in respect of adding paragraph numbers to

24     any statement that's tendered as long as that's the only change.  So if

25     it's agreeable to the Prosecution, just to reduce the number of documents

Page 1687

 1     we have in court, we could just go with the .1 document, but it's up to

 2     the Prosecution.  I'm just offering that as a suggestion.

 3             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, I think that's a good idea.  The

 4     reason we had wanted to tender both 2235 and 2235.1 is that the original

 5     is the one that the witness has signed.  We've marked the PDF with his

 6     signature on it.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the .1 has no signature on it.

 8             MS. CLANTON:  It does.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It does also.  Okay.  So we can just admit the

10     numbered one; is that right?

11             MS. CLANTON:  Yes.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The numbered statement under 65 ter 2235.1 shall

14     be assigned Exhibit Number P296.  Thank you.

15             MS. CLANTON:  And, Your Honours, for ease of reference for the

16     witness, I would like to suggest that we provide him with a paper copy of

17     the numbered statement, if the usher could assist.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask that 65 ter 06276, which is an

20     aerial image, be placed on the monitor in front of the witness, please.

21     This is tab 3.

22        Q.   Mr. Mujic, I'm first going to ask you a few questions about what

23     you observed in Lovas right after the town was occupied.  First, do you

24     recognise the town depicted in this image?

25        A.   I do.

Page 1688

 1        Q.   What is the name of this town?

 2        A.   Lovas.

 3        Q.   Now, at paragraphs 8 and 9 of your statement, it says that on the

 4     11th of October, 1991, Milan Radojcic forced you to drive your minibus to

 5     transport JNA reservists.  They were located at the outskirts of the town

 6     and you took them into the village.

 7             Would you be able to use a marker with the usher's assistance,

 8     please, to mark with an X the place where you picked up the reservists.

 9        A.   I don't see the farm here.  It is somewhere here in this part.  A

10     bit further up from the Borovo factory.  It is the Lovas farm belonging

11     to the agricultural combine of Lovas.

12        Q.   Do you see the Borovo factory in this picture?

13        A.   The Borovo factory and its perimeter are somewhere around here.

14        Q.   And approximately how far is the agricultural building that you

15     said is not on the map, how far is that from the Borovo factory that

16     you've just pointed out?

17        A.   The Borovo factory plot and the Lovas cooperative farm are

18     adjacent to each other.  They border on each other effectively.

19        Q.   Thank you.  It appears that you've marked with a star, which is

20     fine for my purposes.  And the star marking, if you could confirm,

21     indicates the place where you think the agricultural building is located.

22     Is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

24        Q.   In the same paragraph of your statement, you said that the

25     reservists set up check-points, including at the home of

Page 1689

 1     Jelena Antolovic.  Can you mark her house with an A.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And what ethnicity was Jelena Antolovic?

 4        A.   Croatian.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement, it says that you took

 6     reservists from the agricultural building to the village centre three

 7     more times.  Could you please use the marker to mark the other locations

 8     where you took the reservists with the letters B, C, and D.

 9        A.   [Marks].  I don't see Mlinska Street anywhere here but it's

10     somewhere around here, in this part here.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 10 of your statement you said that there

12     was a tank at each location.  Were there tanks stationed in other parts

13     of Lovas?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Please indicate with --

16        A.   Yes.  At every check-point there was a tank, a lorry full of

17     ammunition, and there were anti-armoured vehicles and APCs at various

18     locations all around the village.

19        Q.   Mr. Mujic, were there tanks stationed in other places in Lovas or

20     only at the check-points that you just marked for us?

21        A.   I saw the tanks only at the check-points, and as for the other

22     vehicles that I mentioned, those were smaller-sized military vehicles,

23     so-called transporters.

24        Q.   And do you know where these JNA reservists that you were

25     transporting came from?

Page 1690

 1        A.   From their conversation, I gained the impression that they were

 2     from Kragujevac, Valjevo, and other places in Serbia.  I did not talk to

 3     them myself directly, but I heard what they were saying.

 4        Q.   And after you transported these reservists and saw them

 5     establishing the check-points that you've marked on the map, did you

 6     believe that you were free to leave Lovas?

 7        A.   No, I did not think that I was free to go anywhere from Lovas.

 8             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would

 9     like to tender 65 ter 06276 as marked by the witness into evidence.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P297.  Thank

12     you.

13             MS. CLANTON:

14        Q.   Next, Mr. Mujic, I'd like to ask you about what you saw during

15     your work obligation which you've described at paragraph 14 of your

16     statement.  What neighbourhood of Lovas did you go to for your work

17     obligation?

18        A.   As from the 12th of October, I was supposed to report every

19     morning at 8.00 to the courtyard of the mechanical workshop of the Lovas

20     agricultural cooperative in Kralja Tomislava Street.  We all came there

21     and that's where we were assigned work by Mr. Milan Radojcic and his

22     assistant whose name I believe was Tepavac.

23        Q.   And where did they send you on these assignments?

24        A.   To various places.  One day we went to the farm and we took out

25     the engine from the combine and took it to the mill so they could use it

Page 1691

 1     to start the mill, and then one day we went to the farm of the PIK.  That

 2     was a sort of youth operation.  And we took metal beds apart and took

 3     them to Lovas to the building of -- where the municipality is now.  One

 4     day we gathered mattresses, pillows, and blankets and took them to those

 5     same premises where the Dusan Silni Detachment would later go to sleep.

 6        Q.   And other than these mattresses that you mentioned that were

 7     taken, what did you see happening to other Croat property in Lovas?

 8        A.   I saw that various goods were used.  They took items from

 9     garages.  They took privately owned cars from garages, from yards.  They

10     used a blue lorry to transport household appliances.  They would load

11     these appliances onto the lorry and take them away.

12        Q.   And in paragraph 14 of your statement, you state that you saw a

13     large double bus in Lovas with Novi Sad plates and that there were

14     paramilitaries nearby.  Who were these paramilitaries associated with?

15        A.   When I was passing down the street, I saw that in the yard there

16     was a big bus, not a double-decker bus, but it was an articulated bus.

17     We called it a Harmonika.  It had Novi Sad registration plates, and given

18     what they said, I understood that White Eagle members had come.  They

19     were Mirko Jovic's men from the Serbian Party of Renewal, something like

20     that.

21             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, for the next document I would like to

22     move into private session.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

24             MS. CLANTON:  I would ask that 65 ter --

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Hold on, please.


Page 1692

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1693











11 Pages 1693-1697 redacted. Private session.
















Page 1698

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MS. CLANTON:

 6        Q.   Mr. Mujic, how many men died from their injuries in the

 7     minefield?

 8        A.   Twenty-one.

 9             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask the court officer to please

10     bring up 65 ter 2226.1 and have that placed on the monitor before the

11     witness.  This is tab 5.

12        Q.   Mr. Mujic, have you seen this list before?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you agree that this is a list of persons who were killed in

15     the minefield?

16        A.   Yes.  Those are the persons.

17        Q.   Mr. Mujic, when we met, you marked your initials "IM" in the left

18     margin next to a number of the victims.  What does this signify?

19        A.   It means that I saw these dead people with my very own eyes.

20             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, at this time we'd like to tender

21     65 ter 2226.1 into evidence.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We don't have an English translation of the list,

25     Ms. Clanton?

Page 1699

 1             MS. CLANTON:  We have an English translation of 2226 but not of

 2     the version that was marked by the witness.  He marked it in his own

 3     language.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  In -- Mr. Registrar.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This document will be marked for identification

 7     until you upload the English translation of the other one --

 8             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- with this one so that we have a translation of

10     the text.

11             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MS. CLANTON:

14        Q.   Mr. Mujic, I'm going -- sorry.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P299, marked

16     for identification.  Thank you.

17             MS. CLANTON:

18        Q.   Mr. Mujic, I'd like to briefly ask you a few questions about the

19     medical treatment you've received.  This is touched on in paragraph 44 of

20     your statement.  It says that you were sent to Sremska Mitrovica hospital

21     in Serbia.  What part of your body was operated on in Sremska Mitrovica

22     hospital?

23        A.   My stomach because my intestines had been damaged as a result of

24     the shrapnel.

25        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of the majority of the patients in the

Page 1700

 1     hospital?

 2        A.   They were mostly of Serbian ethnicity, or they were combatants

 3     from the front in Croatia.  They had been wounded.

 4        Q.   Other than the treatment that you received from your doctor, how

 5     were you treated by some of these other patients that had come from the

 6     front?

 7        A.   I don't understand.

 8        Q.   If you could tell us, please, what kind of treatment you

 9     experienced from other patients or staff at the hospital.

10        A.   The doctor and the staff treated me correctly, but the other

11     patients, on some occasions they did establish contact with me but most

12     of them didn't.

13        Q.   And how would you characterize this contact?

14        A.   On one occasion a patient called Ivan Rusin addressed me, and he

15     said that he had been wounded at the Vupik farm known as Ora.  This was

16     between Lovas and Sotina.  His unit was present there -- or, rather, his

17     unit had been mobilised as a -- Hungarians, Croats and so on as ethnic

18     minorities, and they were sent to attack Vukovar, and they refused to do

19     so, and they holed up in the farm, and JNA planes bombed them over a

20     period of several days.  So there were many persons who were killed and

21     wounded.  He lost his leg there and was wounded in the back by shrapnel.

22        Q.   Mr. Mujic, was your family able to visit you in the hospital?

23        A.   No.  Throughout that time period, I didn't see anyone from my

24     family, neither my wife nor my children.

25        Q.   And was your doctor concerned about your well-being at this time?

Page 1701

 1        A.   Yes, he was.  He asked me on a number of occasions whether I had

 2     anyone, where my family members were.  I said I didn't know where they

 3     were.  I said that they had remained in Lovas and that I did not know

 4     whether they were still alive or not, and if they were alive, what sort

 5     of a situation they were in.  He expressed his concern and said he would

 6     try to assist me.  His name, the doctor's name was Nemanja Ljubisic.  He

 7     is the surgeon who operated on me.

 8        Q.   Was he concerned about what was going to happen to you?

 9        A.   He was.  At the end of my treatment, he said that pressure was

10     being put on him to release me.  So some people whom he did not name

11     wanted to put me in a camp or a prison, that's what he said, and he said

12     that he was concerned because my health was very poor, and he was afraid

13     that some of the blows might harm me and that I might not survive such

14     blows.

15        Q.   And do you know the name of the camp he was concerned you would

16     be released to?

17        A.   He didn't mention a camp, really.  He assumed that they would

18     take me to Sremska Mitrovica to a prison or a camp, but they were always

19     talking about some sort of a camp in the territory of Serbia.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Where were you moved after you left the

21     Sremska Mitrovica hospital?

22        A.   Dr. Ljubisic told me that he had arranged things.  He asked a

23     colleague of his in the rehabilitation centre in Stankamen to take me to

24     some centre, to transfer me to some centre.  So I think it was on the

25     1st or the 2nd of December that they found accommodation for me in the

Page 1702

 1     medical section together with Ivan Rusin and a combatant called Stevan

 2     Simic.  So we were transferred to Stankamen.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Stari Slankamen.

 4             MS. CLANTON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Mujic, is Stari Slankamen a town in Serbia or in Croatia?

 6        A.   In Serbia, on the banks of the Danube.

 7        Q.   And at Slankamen who did you see?

 8        A.   When I was taken to Slankamen, they put me in a room.  Several

 9     minutes later Zeljko Krnjaic entered the room.  He is a Serb from Lovas

10     and he was using crutches to walk.

11        Q.   And what did he say to you?

12        A.   When he entered the room, he immediately said:  So it's you.  If

13     he was your brother, I killed him immediately, but I'll see what I'll do

14     about you.  I'll see what my kum will say about you.  Milorad [as

15     interpreted] Vorkapic, Silja, who is your former friend.

16             Milan, not Milorad.

17        Q.   He mentioned that if he were your brother, he would kill you.

18     Did he talk about any other killings?

19        A.   He bragged that he had killed over 200 Ustasha, including

20     Mato Sabljak from Lovas, whom he killed in the Tovarnik police station.

21     He was very brazen.  And he said that he killed him because Mato

22     apparently had said once that the other would have to move from Lovas

23     only because he was a Serb.

24        Q.   Do you know why he confessed to you that he had committed these

25     killings?

Page 1703

 1        A.   He said that he could talk to me because I would not remain

 2     alive, and he said, If your former friend Silja Vorkapic says so, you

 3     will swim in the Danube, and he pointed to the river through the window.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Mujic, after you left Slankamen --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, before you move on, could you

 6     clarify what exactly this man said when entering the room, because it's

 7     not really clear on the record.  He immediately said, "So it's you.  He

 8     was your brother.  I killed him immediately."

 9             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Mujic, you've heard the Judge's comment.  If you could

11     clarify when Mr. Krnjaic came into the room exactly what he said to you.

12        A.   He recognised me, but he said, If it were your brother instead of

13     you, I would kill him straight away.  Given it was me and not my brother,

14     he said he would see about me, what would happen to me.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MS. CLANTON:

17        Q.   And, Mr. Mujic, you've told us that when you returned to Lovas in

18     December, you spent a very short time there.  I believe it was three

19     days.  What did you think would happen to you if you stayed in Lovas?

20        A.   I knew I had to leave that hell as quickly as possible, because I

21     didn't know who would come and what they would do to me after all I had

22     been through.

23        Q.   Who was in charge in Lovas at this time?

24        A.   Paramilitary units like Dusan Silni and all sorts of volunteer

25     groups.  The number one person in the village was Ljuban Devetak with his

Page 1704

 1     assistants Milan Radojcic [Realtime transcript read in error "Rendulic"]

 2     and Milan Devcic who were his right-hand men.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  I'm aware of the time, Your Honour --

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Excuse me.  I notice a potential transcript

 6     problem.  I'm not sure if the Prosecution wishes to correct it now or

 7     whether they will leave it to me, but in respect of one of the names that

 8     was just mentioned.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Should we go into private session?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  No, Mr. President.  It's not a private session

11     issue.  It's merely a name that may have been misrecorded or misstated.

12             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, thank you.  If I could please clarify with the

13     witness.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, please do.

15             MS. CLANTON:

16        Q.   Mr. Mujic, could you please give us the name of the person who

17     was the assistant to Ljuban Devetak?  I believe it was two names.

18        A.   Yes.  I mentioned Milan Radojcic, which was recorded as Rendulic,

19     which is incorrect.  And the other name that I mentioned was the name of

20     Milan Devcic.

21             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.  I have two more questions, Your Honour,

22     but I can pause now if you prefer.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break now.  Mr. Witness, we'll

24     take a break and come back at 12.45.  The court usher will escort you out

25     of the courtroom.  Thank you.

Page 1705

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Clanton.

 7             MS. CLANTON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mujic, before the break we were speaking about your ultimate

 9     departure from Lovas in 1991, and you stated that you were concerned what

10     was going to happen to you and what people might do to you.  Do you know

11     what happened to some of the Croats who stayed in Lovas after you left?

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection for the same reason that I interposed an

13     objection earlier.  There's no notice to my knowledge of this testimony

14     in the witness summary or in the witness statement.  Any such indication

15     that there is is in the notice -- or the proofing note that was sent

16     around last night extremely late.  So I would object.

17             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, if I may.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, please.

19             MS. CLANTON:  The witness in his statement in paragraph 44

20     explains that he returned to Lovas after being away for several months

21     and that he only stayed for about three days and he gives us information

22     about the date of his departure.  I'm only asking for him to give us any

23     information he has that's relevant to the reason why he felt he had to

24     leave and what he learned about the situation in Lovas at the time he

25     felt he had to leave.

Page 1706

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we have no objection to the first

 2     question, why he left.  We would object to the second question, the

 3     second part of the question.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection overruled.  Please proceed,

 6     Ms. Clanton.

 7             MS. CLANTON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Mujic, would you like for me to repeat the question?

 9        A.   Yes, please.

10        Q.   You've told us that when you returned to Lovas, you were worried

11     what was going to happen to you and what people might do to you.  Do you

12     know what happened to some of the Croats who stayed in Lovas after you

13     left on December 16th?

14        A.   Yes.  I was concerned because given what my wife had said, there

15     were still paramilitary units in the area, and it would be best for us to

16     leave.  And therefore, on the 16th of December, my wife, my two children

17     and I left and went to the free territory of Croatia.  And while I was in

18     hospital in Zagreb, I learned that during the period prior to Christmas,

19     many crimes had been committed against Croats in Lovas.  There was

20     Madzarevic, Djuka Radocaj and so on, they were imprisoned in a cellar.

21     They were maltreated.  They drilled holes in their feet.  They used

22     pliers to extract their teeth.  Madzarevic was badly beaten and he lost

23     several teeth.  They put salt on open wounds in his mouth.  I learned

24     about that because they were in the hospital in Zagreb and inhabitants of

25     ours who were there visited them and myself.  And it was in the

Page 1707

 1     conversation, in the course of conversations, that we came to learn about

 2     all of these things.

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Mujic, these people who you've described, you've told us

 4     what happened to them and that you saw them when you were in Zagreb in

 5     the hospital.  Do you know how it was that they left Lovas?

 6        A.   They were beaten, and the local authorities moved them out

 7     en masse.  There were a lot of women and children, and those beaten

 8     people, they forced them to sign some documents, and they moved them out

 9     and sent them away to the free territory of Croatia.

10             MS. CLANTON:  At this time, Your Honour, I have no further

11     questions.

12             There's one technical matter.  During the break our Case Manager,

13     Mr. Laugel, provided the English translation to the document that was

14     MFI'd earlier.  For the record, I would indicate that the B/C/S version

15     has the annotations, the English does not, but if that could be admitted

16     into evidence at this time, please.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  MFI status lifted.  Thank you.

18             MS. CLANTON:  I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Cross-examination.

20             MS. CLANTON:  I apologise.  Does it need to have an exhibit

21     number at this time?

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It has one, hasn't it?

23             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It is Exhibit P299.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Gosnell.


Page 1708

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

 3        Q.   Good day to you, sir.

 4        A.   Good day to you as well.

 5        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell.  I represent Mr. Hadzic in these

 6     proceedings, and I'll just be asking you a very few questions today.  If

 7     anything is not clear, feel free to ask for a clarification.  Do you

 8     understand?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Now, you were a driver in Lovas during these events, and you have

11     a sense of some distances between places by road.  Could you tell us how

12     far it is from Lovas to Tovarnik by road approximately?

13        A.   About 7 kilometres.

14        Q.   And how much further would it be from Tovarnik to the Serbian

15     border by road?

16        A.   Not far.  Perhaps 2 or 3 kilometres if not less than that.  In

17     any case, it's very close.

18        Q.   And leaving aside road distances, how far would it be as the crow

19     flies from Lovas to the Serbian -- to the closest point where you could

20     cross into Serbia?

21        A.   As the crow flies, of course it is much closer, but our

22     agricultural fields are separated from the Serbian fields on the other

23     side.  I don't know how far or close it is, but I know that the distance

24     is much shorter than if you were to go by road.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P297 on the screen, please.

Page 1709

 1        Q.   Sir, this is the aerial image that you saw earlier and that you

 2     marked.  From point B, is it possible to walk south towards Serbia and to

 3     reach the border?

 4        A.   It is possible.  There is a dirt road there.

 5        Q.   And how far would that be from point B to the Serbian border?

 6        A.   I really can't say.  I was never a farmer.  I never -- or seldom

 7     took that road, but I don't think it's far.

 8        Q.   Would you agree that it would be about 3 kilometres?

 9        A.   Possible.

10        Q.   Sir, yesterday during your conversations with the Office of the

11     Prosecutor you indicated to them that there was a ZNG unit based in the

12     old school building in Lovas at some point; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you tell us when that unit arrived?

15        A.   I don't know the exact date, but it was sometime during the

16     summer, perhaps in July or August, but they did not stay long.  They

17     stayed for a very short while.

18        Q.   Approximately how many men were part of this unit?

19        A.   I believe that they were the size of a squad, up to 30 men, or a

20     platoon, rather.  I was never inside their premises.  I never counted

21     them, but that's how I remember it.

22        Q.   But did you --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, could you ask the witness for a

24     year, July or August?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 1710

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 2        A.   In 1991.

 3        Q.   And did you ever see members of this unit outside of where they

 4     were staying at the old school building?

 5        A.   No.  No.

 6        Q.   Do you have any indication or knowledge as to their activities

 7     while they were in Lovas?

 8        A.   I did not monitor those activities.  I didn't know anything about

 9     them.  They were billeted there.  They were there during the day.  I

10     don't know whether they went somewhere during the day or at any time.  I

11     don't know.

12        Q.   Did they ever assist you with the check-points that you say in

13     your statement you participated in manning?

14        A.   Yes, I did man the check-points, and they never participated in

15     those check-points, only our locals were there, and they had hunting

16     rifles as weapons.

17        Q.   You never saw any members of this unit engaging in patrols around

18     the town?

19        A.   Well, they did walk around the village.  They would go to the

20     local cafe.  They would be here and there, but I never saw them

21     patrolling.

22        Q.   Is it your testimony that you never saw them outside of the old

23     Zadruga building with their weapons?

24        A.   As I've already told you, they would go to the cafe.  They did go

25     through the village, but they did not act in an organised fashion.  It is

Page 1711

 1     possible that some of them were carrying weapons when they did that, but

 2     I can't tell you that for a fact.  I can't tell you that I saw them or

 3     who I saw doing that.

 4        Q.   I have to correct my last question, Mr. President.  It was the

 5     old school building, not the old Zadruga building.

 6             Sir, did you see these individuals wearing uniforms?

 7        A.   Yes.  That's the guys that I'm talking about.  They were billeted

 8     in the old school, and I did see them wearing uniforms.  They -- they did

 9     have their personal weapons, but I did not see them acting in an

10     organised manner doing anything in the village.  I did them -- did see

11     them going to the cafe as individuals, yes.

12        Q.   When you say "personal weapons," are you referring to -- well,

13     what are you referring to when you say "personal weapons"?  What kind of

14     weapons?

15        A.   As far as I could see, they had rifles, semi-automatic and

16     automatic rifles.

17        Q.   And you never spoke to any of these individuals?

18        A.   I did.  Of course I did.  There were several of them who were

19     locals who were members of those units.  I knew them, and I did talk to

20     them, but I was never part of that unit, so we did not actually discuss

21     the unit matter -- matters.

22        Q.   You say some of the individuals were local.  Am I correct in

23     understanding that some of them were not local?

24        A.   Yes.  Some of them were not locals, but I don't know those men,

25     so I can't say anything about those men who were not locals.

Page 1712

 1        Q.   Well, did the people you do know or did know who were in the

 2     unit, did they tell you anything about who these non-locals were?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did the people you did know who were in the unit tell you that

 5     weapons had been brought to Lovas as part of the establishment of this

 6     unit there?

 7        A.   No.  I didn't have anything to do with them.  They came.  They

 8     brought their weapons, and then when they left, they took the weapons

 9     away with them.  I don't know what else to tell you.

10        Q.   Did anyone to your knowledge from the Crisis Committee ask that

11     they participate in manning roadblocks or otherwise defending the town?

12        A.   I know nothing about that, because I was not a member of the

13     inner circle of the Crisis Staff.  Therefore, I was not privy to any such

14     decisions, if there were any such decisions, nor could I take part in the

15     passing of such decisions.

16        Q.   And when did this unit leave Lovas?

17        A.   I don't know the date.  I believe that it was still summer.  It

18     may have been in the month of August perhaps, but I don't know.  I really

19     did not pay much attention to that at the time.

20        Q.   Well, are you sure that they weren't there in September?

21        A.   I don't think so, because in the month of September we could not

22     leave the village.  So I don't think that they were in the village in the

23     month of September.

24        Q.   But there was a build-up of Serb forces around or near Lovas in

25     August and September; is that right?

Page 1713

 1        A.   Yes.  I heard about that.  On several occasions Lovas was

 2     attacked or, rather, it was targeted by cannon shells.  I don't know what

 3     kind of shells those were, but the village was shelled several times.

 4        Q.   Was there any shooting in addition to shelling from the Serb side

 5     or was it just shelling?

 6        A.   Just shelling.

 7        Q.   And you're saying that this unit left just as this shelling

 8     begins.  Is that your testimony?

 9        A.   No.  I think that they left the village even before the shelling.

10     I can't be a hundred per cent sure, but that's what I think.

11        Q.   At paragraph 3 of your statement - and you can look at it there

12     in front of you, sir, if you wish - you say that there was a -- a gradual

13     build-up, military presence and artillery, "and we were aware that the

14     village of Sotin had been attacked.  There was also a demand from the JNA

15     to surrender all weapons, but there was nothing to surrender."

16             Can you tell us when this demand to surrender weapons was made by

17     the JNA?

18        A.   That happened on several occasions.  Our representatives,

19     together with some other local Serbs, went to attend the negotiations.  I

20     don't know when those negotiations started, but there were several rounds

21     of them.  I don't know when it was -- or, rather, I don't remember when

22     those negotiations were taking place.

23        Q.   Were these negotiations taking place at the same time that there

24     were check-points being manned by Croats in the village?

25        A.   Yes.  Croats manned check-points at entrances and exits from the

Page 1714

 1     village all the -- all the time up to the 10th of October.  A few days

 2     before the 10th of October, they stopped manning those check-points.

 3        Q.   So you're saying that the check-points were in existence right up

 4     until the time of the Serb attack; is that correct?

 5        A.   A few days prior to the 10th of October those check-points were

 6     dismantled and disbanded, because the JNA and the Serb forces insisted

 7     that we should surrender our weapons.  We hesitated.  Some wanted to

 8     surrender the -- the hunting rifles that we had.  Some were against that.

 9     So we simply stopped manning the check-points because we knew that it was

10     just a matter of days when the village would be -- be attacked.  We did

11     not have the necessary power to defend ourselves, so the village was

12     simply left at the mercy of the powers that be.

13        Q.   During the negotiations with the JNA, if that was the view of the

14     Croat side, did you or representatives of the Crisis Committee invite the

15     JNA into the village?

16        A.   No.  Nobody invited them to come to the village.  In view of all

17     the developments, we realised and we were certain that the JNA was no

18     longer our military, that they sided up with the Serbs and that they were

19     no longer our friends, that they did not come to protect our people.

20        Q.   Did you indicate that the check-points that were being manned had

21     been dismantled?  Was that conveyed to the JNA?

22        A.   I don't know whether they learnt about it.  We never informed

23     them.  We tried to deal with our own problems.  We tried to see how we

24     would save our women and children and frail and elderly.  We tried to see

25     how we would save ourselves.  That was our main preoccupation.

Page 1715

 1        Q.   And in doing that, in protecting yourselves and the women and

 2     children, isn't it true that you tried to maintain control of Lovas for

 3     as long as possible?

 4        A.   Well, it was only normal, but we simply lost steam.  Lovas had

 5     been encircled for a long time.  We did not have electricity.  We were

 6     simply forced to look -- look after number one, to look after our own

 7     families.  We were under a lot of pressure.

 8        Q.   Were any white flags raised above the town before the attack by

 9     the JNA on Lovas?

10        A.   No.  White flags and bands around our arms, that was ordered to

11     us by those who entered the village on the 10th of October.  So all

12     Croatian houses had to put a white sheet on their gates, and the Croats

13     at the same time were ordered to mark their sleeves with a white band as

14     a sign of recognition.

15        Q.   Sir, my question was -- about the white flags was related to

16     whether or not there were any visible indications given by the

17     townspeople of Lovas that they were surrendering to the JNA.  Were there

18     any such indications given by members of the town -- by the inhabitants

19     of Lovas to that effect?

20        A.   As far as I know, no such thing happened.

21        Q.   Now, you say in your statement at paragraph 6 that -- and this is

22     describing when you emerge from the basement that you have taken refuge

23     in, and you say --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You say:

Page 1716

 1             "Outside on the road, I saw a person in the uniform of a JNA

 2     captain together with a man named Milan Radojcic, who was also wearing

 3     the uniform of a JNA captain and was holding a handgun.  I was very

 4     surprised to see this, because Radojcic was a Serb from the village of

 5     Lovas with a house there."

 6             And then you say:

 7             "As far as I was aware, his uniform was regular JNA and not

 8     reservist."

 9             Now, my first question is:  Do you know whether there are any

10     differences between a JNA reserve uniform and a JNA active-duty uniform?

11     Is there a difference?

12        A.   Before all of those developments, at one point in time I was a

13     reservist myself, a member of the JNA reserve.  I had been issued with an

14     olive-drab JNA uniform, the thicker kind.  On the 11th, around noon,

15     Milan Radojcic came into the courtyard of a neighbouring house.  That

16     house belonged to Anka Krizmanic, and we heard a shot, and somebody was

17     crying out, Is there anybody there --

18        Q.   Sir, excuse me, can I just cut you off.

19        A.   Yes, go ahead.

20        Q.   I was just for the moment interested in whether or not you know

21     whether there is any difference between a reserve uniform of the JNA and

22     a regular active-duty uniform of the JNA.

23        A.   I think that an active-duty uniform is made of somewhat better

24     material, somewhat thinner material.  He was in a shirt, and he had three

25     stars on his epaulettes, and I knew that that represented the rank of a

Page 1717

 1     captain.

 2        Q.   Well, could a reserve officer have a rank of captain and have

 3     three stars on their epaulette?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I know that a JNA captain was discerned by the

 5     three epaulettes -- the three stars on the epaulette.  That's all I knew.

 6        Q.   Well, all I'm getting at, sir, is just to try to understand what

 7     your basis was for believing at the time that he was an active member of

 8     the JNA instead of -- instead of a reserve member of the JNA.  Was it on

 9     the basis of his uniform?

10        A.   Yes.  And I found it strange that he was a captain, be it a

11     reserve or an active-duty officer.  I saw those men wearing all sorts of

12     different uniforms or parts of uniforms.  So at first -- my first thought

13     was to wonder how come that he was a JNA captain, because I knew him

14     personally.  He was a Lovas local.  We always had a very good

15     relationship before those developments.

16        Q.   So you don't know whether he was active duty or reserve at this

17     time.  Is that a fair conclusion to your testimony on this?

18        A.   Well, one could say so, but it's true that he had three stars and

19     the rank of a captain.  That is true.  As to whether he was a reserve

20     officer or an active-duty officer, I'm not sure whether that is all that

21     important now.

22        Q.   At paragraph 8 of your statement, you say -- you describe being

23     directed by this Montenegrin captain who was in the JNA, that he directed

24     you towards an agricultural field on the outside of the village and

25     opened the door of a store where there were many reservists inside.  I

Page 1718

 1     just want to make it absolutely clear, because it's not clear from the

 2     statement.  These are JNA reservists; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And at paragraph 10, you stay you returned to this field three

 5     times, and you took them to various locations in the village where they

 6     set up check-points to prevent people entering or leaving.

 7             Is it correct to say that you understood that the JNA was

 8     controlling the perimeter of Lovas at this point?

 9        A.   Yes.  That was my impression.  When I was driving them around,

10     the impression I gained was that they were carrying out checks, providing

11     security at the entrance and exit to -- from the village.

12        Q.   So they were checking those who came in and they were checking

13     those who went out; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And in particular, they were controlling a check-point on the

16     road leading south to Tovarnik; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was there a tank at that particular check-point?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And that was the case throughout the time that you were in Lovas;

21     correct?  Until you left on the 18th.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Was that the case when you returned in December?

24        A.   I didn't notice it then.  I returned home.  I didn't go anywhere

25     until I left on the 16th again, until I left the village.  All I know is

Page 1719

 1     that when I was driven to an area behind the village, by the farm at the

 2     exit from the village, there was a check-point, but I didn't see who was

 3     manning it.  I didn't see their insignia, their uniforms or anything like

 4     that because I just passed by.

 5        Q.   At paragraph 30 of your statement, which is at page 6 of the

 6     English, but you can refer to the numbers -- the paragraph numbers there

 7     in front of you, you have just finished describing these terrible events

 8     at -- where the beatings occur in the yard of the Zadruga building, as I

 9     understand it.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you say here at paragraph 30:

12             "Milan Rendulic (Buva), a Croat, and Ilija Kresojevic, a Serb,"

13     appear to arrive there.

14             And then you say:

15             "They ordered the group that I was in to get into pairs in a line

16     and we were immediately flanked either side by this special unit."

17             Just again to make your statement absolutely clear, when you say

18     "by this special unit," do I understand that the special unit you're

19     referring to is the special unit you describe in the paragraph before,

20     paragraph 29?  Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And why was a Croat involved in participating on the Serbian side

23     when he arrived there?

24        A.   He wasn't involved.  It was his choice.  His wife was a Serb,

25     Koviljka Japundzic, and his brother-in-law was Milan Devcic -- rather,

Page 1720

 1     his son-in-law was Milan Devcic, who was the chief of police in SAO

 2     Krajina, in Lovas.  So he sided with -- with them probably because he

 3     cared about these people.

 4        Q.   Were there any other Croats that you knew of who were fighting on

 5     the Serb side?

 6        A.   No, I didn't notice any such cases.  I didn't say he was fighting

 7     on the Serbian side, but he somehow joined them and took action with

 8     them.

 9        Q.   Well, do you know what unit he was a member of?

10        A.   No, I didn't know anything about that.  He and Ilija Kresojevic

11     entered the yard of the workshop.  They were wearing the uniforms of the

12     reserve JNA force.  Naturally they had semi-automatic rifles that they

13     had slung over their shoulders.

14        Q.   So you say that they were wearing the uniforms of the reserve JNA

15     force.  Did he have any markings to indicate his rank?

16        A.   No.  I didn't notice any such markings.

17        Q.   At paragraph 42 of your statement, which is page 7 of the

18     English, you say that you managed to get onto the road and a truck being

19     driven by Milan Vorkapic arrived, "and we were put on board the truck and

20     taken firstly to Tovarnik and then to Sid where we had to wait for some

21     sort of medical treatment."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you remember whether the truck you were on was accompanied by

24     any other vehicle?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1721

 1        Q.   What was the vehicle and who was inside?

 2        A.   It was a privately owned vehicle that they had taken from

 3     Milko Keser.  It was a Zastava 124, a red one, I believe, and there were

 4     two members of the paramilitary unit, or Chetniks, as we would say.  They

 5     were armed.  And Milan Vorkapic, also known as Trnda, was driving the

 6     lorry and they were escorting us.  They drove behind the lorry and they

 7     did so as far as Sid.

 8        Q.   You say paramilitary unit or Chetniks.  Do you know which unit --

 9     what unit specifically are you referring to?

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know, because I heard nothing about that.

11     The village was full of those units, and we didn't know whether they were

12     military units or paramilitary units.  Their insignia were of different

13     kinds.  They had mixed uniforms, parts of uniforms, so the markings on

14     their caps were also different, and therefore we didn't know which units

15     they belonged to.  And in addition, our position was such that we didn't

16     even dare look anyone in the eye in order to avoid beatings, let alone

17     look at someone in order to try and determine which unit that person was

18     a member of.

19        Q.   Could these people have been members of the JNA?

20        A.   I don't think so.

21        Q.   And as you were driving between Tovarnik and Sid, did you stop at

22     the border with Serbia?

23        A.   We only stopped in Tovarnik, somewhere in the centre.  They

24     opened the rear end of the lorry.  I saw someone in a white overall

25     appear, and I think there was a nurse with him --

Page 1722

 1        Q.   Sorry, sir, to just focus you.  I'm not so interested in what

 2     happened in Tovarnik because that's already in your statement.  The

 3     question is whether between Tovarnik and Sid you stopped at any

 4     check-point at the Serbian border --

 5        A.   I'm not sure, but I wouldn't say so, but I don't know.  We were

 6     concerned with ourselves.  We were all wounded.  I had been seriously

 7     wounded.  So there's some details that I haven't remembered even if I saw

 8     them.

 9        Q.   That's completely understandable, sir.  And on the return -- on

10     the return trip from Sid to Lovas, do you remember whether you stopped at

11     the border?

12        A.   I don't think so, but again I'm not certain.

13        Q.   And at any other time that you took that road between Tovarnik

14     and Sid -- well, first of all, did you ever take that road at any other

15     time, let's say before October 10th, between Tovarnik and Sid?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   When --

18        A.   No, no.  I took that road on the 21st of September when Tovarnik

19     was attacked or, rather, shelled, and on that occasion I drove the bus to

20     Tovarnik in order to fetch children, women, and the elderly who were

21     afraid as a result of that shelling.  So on that day I went to collect

22     several elderly persons, women and children, and bring them back.  That

23     was the last time I was in Tovarnik.

24        Q.   When you were evacuated for medical treatment to

25     Sremska Mitrovica, did you travel by that road from Tovarnik to Sid and

Page 1723

 1     then into Serbia?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you recall on that occasion whether there was a check-point at

 4     the border that you had to stop at?

 5        A.   I think there were check-points, but I don't think we stopped

 6     because it was a medical vehicle that was being used to drive us to our

 7     destination.

 8        Q.   And when you returned to Lovas in December, did you go via Sid

 9     and Tovarnik?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   On that occasion, did you have to go through a border post or a

12     check-point between the Serbian and Croat side?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14        Q.   And what did you observe there at that time?

15        A.   Well, there was a check-point.  You had to show certain

16     documents, passes, that sort of thing.

17        Q.   And as far as you could tell, who was in charge of that post or

18     check-point?

19        A.   I don't know who controlled the check-point.  I didn't even

20     notice this because I was very afraid, so I wasn't really paying

21     attention, so I could not say.

22        Q.   Now, when you went to the hospital in Sremska Mitrovica, do you

23     know the name of the hospital, the exact name of the hospital?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Just waiting for a translation.

Page 1724

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Was it a military or a civilian hospital?

 3        A.   I think it was a civilian hospital.  I was in the surgical ward,

 4     and I was operated on that very same day.

 5        Q.   And during your stay at this hospital, you have described having

 6     a conversation with someone of either Hungarian or Croatian ethnic

 7     extraction, and you say that they told you that they had been sent to

 8     attack Vukovar and that they had holed up in a farm.  This is at page 61

 9     of today's transcript.  They were holed up in a farm and that JNA planes

10     bombed them over a period of several days.  Is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you believe that story?

13        A.   It's not that I believed it.  I knew when these planes bombed

14     that area.  We heard about that, or we heard it because it was in the

15     vicinity.  It was close to our place.  The planes made a lot of noise,

16     and there were these very forceful explosions, but we knew that there was

17     a unit there, because several days earlier they came to our farm in order

18     to get some drinking water.

19        Q.   And was it at that time that you learned that this was a unit

20     composed of Croats and Hungarians?

21        A.   No, I didn't know that at the time.  I found out about that in

22     the hospital.  This wounded person whose name is Ivan Rusin told me about

23     that.  He told me that they were supposed to launch an attack on Vukovar

24     but their commander didn't want to do so and they sent the planes in to

25     bomb them.  That's true because I know about this bombing because later,

Page 1725

 1     after the event, some of us were curious so we went there by motorbike

 2     and saw that everything had been bombed.  There was a lot of blood, and

 3     that gentleman told me that according to his information, there were

 4     quite a few men who had been killed and a lot of men who had been wounded

 5     there, and they had been taken to hospitals throughout Vojvodina.

 6        Q.   So you're saying that what happened was that this unit mutinied

 7     and refused orders to attack or participate in the attack on Vukovar; is

 8     that correct?

 9        A.   According to what this gentleman in Mitrovica said, yes, that is

10     correct, and I believe what he said.

11        Q.   All right.  So you heard about the mutiny part from him, but you

12     did yourself see or were aware of the bombing of the unit; correct?

13        A.   Yes, I knew about it.  We all heard -- heard it, and later, once

14     they had all fled, we saw that there had been a lot of bombing at that

15     place, and there were a lot of -- there was a lot of residential housing

16     that had been destroyed.

17        Q.   So had this unit comprised of Croats and Hungarians taken

18     residence in these residential houses?  Is that where they had taken

19     refuge?

20        A.   They had found accommodation there.  As to where they were

21     sleeping and who exactly, I don't know, but they stayed there for a

22     certain period of time until these planes of theirs attacked them,

23     because the Vupik, the agricultural unit, had accommodation there for

24     seasonal workers.  So there was accommodation that was available.

25        Q.   You said earlier today -- or you described to us earlier today

Page 1726

 1     your discussion with a Zeljko Krnjaic.  Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you say that he bragged about killing 200, and this is in

 4     quotation marks, "200 Ustasha," and --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the word you used in your testimony earlier today at page 63

 7     was that he was bragging.  Do you -- did you believe the story that he

 8     had killed 200 Ustasha?

 9        A.   Well, I believed it, because knowing them -- and it wasn't just

10     in Lovas.  They probably waged war in other battle-fields.  And on the

11     10th of October they entered Lovas and they killed people in their houses

12     and in the streets, and therefore, since I knew that that was the case, I

13     thought that anything was possible.  Because Krnjaic, on the

14     10th of October, entered Lovas, and 22 locals from Lovas were killed on

15     that day for no reason.  This was done in the houses, in the yards, in

16     the streets, et cetera.

17        Q.   And what unit was he a member of?

18        A.   I don't know.  I didn't pay attention to that.  I don't have any

19     information about that.  They were all members of some sort of units, but

20     I don't know.

21        Q.   And you met him in this rehabilitation centre in Serbia when he

22     told you this story; correct?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And who -- who were the patients at this rehabilitation centre?

25        A.   Well, I don't know.  On the whole there were combatants from the


Page 1727

 1     Serbian side.  There were civilians as well.  So I don't have any

 2     information.  Since on the first day when I arrived there, ten minutes

 3     passed and he entered my room then, and when he told me what he did on

 4     that day and on the following day, well, in my opinion a lot of terrible

 5     things happened.  I was transferred to another room, and unknown

 6     individuals came to see me.  They were wearing white clothes.  They

 7     threatened me.  They were wearing white overalls.  They threatened me.

 8     They said I was their patient and that I would not survive.  So I was

 9     very scared.  And afterwards, sometime later, the duty doctor in that

10     ward came to see me and to examine me, and she noticed that I was very

11     scared, and she only asked me whether anyone had come to see me.  I no

12     longer had any reason to remain silent.  I said yes, and I told her

13     everything.  And she told me to wait a while, and she said that she was

14     going to see her boss.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. Mujic, thank you very much for your testimony.

16     Your Honours, I have no further questions.  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Any redirect?

19             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

20                           Re-examination by Ms. Clanton:

21        Q.   Mr. Mujic, a moment ago Defence counsel asked you about this unit

22     that you were aware of that was made up of minorities, Hungarians and

23     Croats.  What kind of unit was this?

24        A.   It was a unit that had been mobilised.  It consisted of the

25     reserve forces of the JNA and they were from Sremska Mitrovica.

Page 1728

 1        Q.   And can you tell us the name of the area they were accommodated?

 2        A.   It was at the Vupik farm, the agricultural complex.  That's where

 3     they had been provided with accommodation.  That's where there were

 4     machines for agricultural work.  There were the workshops, the offices,

 5     and there was accommodation there for seasonal workers as well.  At one

 6     point in time, I can't remember the year, perhaps it was after 1980,

 7     there was a youth action in the former Yugoslavia, a youth work action,

 8     and there were quite a lot of facilities for accommodation as a result.

 9     So the beds, et cetera, remained in Vupik.  And one day after Lovas had

10     been occupied, we were taken there so that we could take some of the

11     beds --

12        Q.   Mr. Mujic, if I could ask you --

13        A.   -- to the premises of the local commune --

14        Q.   If I could ask you to stop there, please.  This Vupik farm that

15     you've described, is this close to the village of Lovas?

16        A.   It's between Lovas and Sutina.  It's perhaps 5 kilometres from

17     Lovas.  By the road.  By the Tovarnik-Lovas-Sutina road.

18        Q.   And do you recall what month the accommodation -- this facility

19     was shelled?  Or bombed?

20        A.   It was sometime towards the end of September.

21             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, this brings an end to your

25     testimony.  We thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.


Page 1729

 1     You're now released as a witness.  The court usher will escort you out of

 2     court, and we wish you a safe journey back home.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, the Bench's secret services informed

 6     me that this was your very first witness examination in court.  Is that

 7     right?

 8             MS. CLANTON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, we certainly wouldn't have noticed if we

10     hadn't been told.  Congratulations, Ms. Clanton.

11             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is there anything else for the moment?

13             MR. OLMSTED:  No, Your Honour.  We notice that there is a few

14     minutes left in the session, but given the time, we actually had the next

15     witness sent back to the hotel.  So if we could start tomorrow.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Nothing else to be addressed,

17     Mr. Zivanovic?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Court adjourned.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day

22                           of November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.