1 Wednesday, 28 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, may we have -- can we -- sorry. Can you call the
8 case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
15 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
16 Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, Lisa Biersay and Case Manager
17 Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. And for the Defence.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And just to tell you, my computer doesn't work.
23 I have technical problems.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We'll look into that.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, the technician is on his -- the
2 technician is on his way. Can we, in the meantime, start with the
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I follow the transcript on the
5 middle computer --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- on the screen. Thank you.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness may be brought in.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just for the record, the Registrar received two
12 video-clips, 65 ter numbers -- that were -- the ones that were tendered
13 yesterday, 65 ter numbers 35 -- sorry. 6350.2. And 6350.3 and they have
14 been given Exhibit Numbers P305 and P310 respectively.
15 Good morning, Mr. Witness. You may sit down.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would remind you that you're still under oath.
18 Ms. Biersay.
19 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
21 WITNESS: GH-095 [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I wanted to ask you some questions about the minefield killings
2 you described yesterday.
3 When the Valjevci explained to you how to disarm the mines, was
4 that before or after the first explosion?
5 A. After the first explosion.
6 Q. Was that explanation before or after the detainees lay dead in
7 the clover field?
8 A. They were all -- already dead, in the field.
9 Q. Yesterday you explained the method that was given to you for
10 disarming the mines. The explanation that you were given, could you have
11 used the method they described to you, holding hands with the other men,
12 and sweeping your feet in front of you?
13 A. No. We were crawling forward, and as we came to a mine, we had
14 to disarm it.
15 Q. How long did it take for you and the other men to disarm the
17 A. About an hour and a half, approximately.
18 Q. Where were the dead bodies during this hour and a half that you
19 were disarming the mines?
20 A. Both the dead and the wounded were behind us, but they were still
21 there in the field.
22 Q. How many explosions were there total?
23 A. There was one. And then, after all that, as we were loading the
24 wounded and the dead onto the lorry, there was another explosion of a
25 small anti-personnel mine.
1 Q. So, if I understand correctly, you and the others disarmed the
2 mines, and there was still one that was there and that went off; is that
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. You describe in your testimony yesterday Stjepan Pejic. I
6 believe you said that his toes were blown off?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I also believe that you say that that happened while he was
9 helping the wounded off of the field; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. He was helping Ivica Mujic who was wounded during the first
11 round of shooting. And then he stepped on that small anti-personnel
13 Q. So it was Stjepan Pejic who was helping Mujic.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, what, if anything, were you wearing on your arm when
16 you were marched to the minefield?
17 A. All of us had white pieces of cloth around our arms.
18 Q. Was that by choice, wearing those white pieces of cloth?
19 A. No, not really. We had to. That was pursuant to an order by the
20 military and the local Serbs.
21 Q. When was the next time you went to the minefield?
22 A. On the following day, in the morning, we went there in order to
23 load the bodies of our dead friends onto a lorry.
24 Q. Who told you to do that?
25 A. Our local Serbs in the village.
1 Q. Do you recall how many of -- of you went to collect these bodies?
2 A. There were either six or seven of us.
3 Q. Did anyone escort you to the minefield or did you go on your own?
4 A. We had escorts. They were local Serbs. And there was a lorry
5 which was driven by Milan Vorkapic, also known as Trnda. He was parked
6 on the road. They were there next to the lorry and we entered the
7 minefield, and we recovered the bodies of our dead friends one by one.
8 We used a ladder to load the bodies onto the lorry.
9 Q. I would like to take you back just a few steps.
10 The local Serbs who escorted you to the minefield to recover
11 bodies, were they armed or unarmed?
12 A. They were armed and uniformed. They wore JNA uniforms.
13 Q. As you were going down that hill again on the second day, do
14 you --
15 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Ms. Biersay.
16 Mr. Witness, in response to your last answer to counsel's
17 question, how, then -- if I understood you correctly, the local Serbs
18 wore JNA uniforms. How then was it possible to distinguish the,
19 quote/unquote, local Serbs from the members of the military?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our local Serbs put on JNA uniforms
21 later on, and those that were standing on the side wore very colourful
22 uniforms. They were not uniforms. Some of the garments were civilian,
23 and the others were military clothing.
24 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir.
25 Yes, Ms. Biersay.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, if I could take you back. The day after your
3 friends were killed in the minefield, you're going to collect the bodies,
4 and you start walking down the hill. Do you remember the first time you
5 saw the minefields on that second day with the dead bodies of your
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What went through your mind when you saw that scene?
9 A. It was very painful. Bosko Bodjanac was the first one who was
10 loaded onto the lorry on the curb. When we arrived there -- we had
11 passed there the day before, and then Pejic stepped on a mine. We were
12 afraid. It was a daunting prospect of entering that minefield once
13 again. But we had to, we had to load the bodies onto the lorry.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, could you please repeat the name of
15 the first body, the man -- you loaded on the truck. Bosko -- what was
16 his last name?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bodjanac.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 MS. BIERSAY:
20 Q. After the bodies were loaded onto the lorry, what happened to the
22 A. The lorry returned to the entrance into the village and stopped
23 before the check-point that was manned by reservists. The driver parked
24 it there, and it remained there for two days. We passed through the
25 check-point and returned to the village. We went back to our regular
1 work duties. The lorry was there for two days. And then they dug out a
2 hole in front of the church, and some of the villagers unloaded the
3 bodies from the lorry and threw them into that hole, which then became a
4 mass grave.
5 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, who -- when you say "they dug out," who dug
6 out the hole in front of the church?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Croat who had an appropriate
8 piece of machinery. He had an excavator. He dug out that hole in the
9 cemetery. And then our lads, locals, unloaded the bodies from the lorry
10 and buried them in that hole.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
12 MS. BIERSAY:
13 Q. Mr. Witness, do you know who made the decision that the bodies
14 would be buried in that place? Was it the friend who had the excavator
15 or was it someone else?
16 A. I don't know who decided. In any case, there was an empty space
17 among all the other existing graves. That's where the hole was dug out,
18 and that's where they were buried.
19 Q. Were they later removed from this burial site?
20 A. No. It was only when we started returning in 1996 or 1997 they
21 were recovered from the graves. Actually, an exhumation took place, and
22 their bodies were taken to the forensic institute in Zagreb.
23 Q. You described yesterday that the house of Keser was being used as
24 a police station. Do I understand that correctly?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How far was that police station from the minefield?
2 A. Approximately 600 to 700 metres.
3 Q. When they brought the lorry of the dead bodies, you said, to the
4 check-point, was that closer to the centre of the village or was that
5 farther from the centre of the village?
6 A. They got closer. The centre of the village, at that point, was
7 some 200 metres away.
8 Q. And what was the distance from where the truck with the dead
9 bodies was parked for two days, from that point to the police station,
10 how far was that distance?
11 A. Again about 200 metres. Boro Keser's house which housed the
12 police is in the centre, and the lorry was parked some 200 metres away.
13 And it was also some 50 metres away from the check-point manned by
14 reservists who were standing there at the entrance to the village.
15 Q. While you were in Lovas, was there any investigation ever
16 conducted into the killings in the minefield?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were there any investigations into any of the killings of Croats
19 in the village of Lovas?
20 A. No.
21 MS. BIERSAY: Turning now to tab 7, if I may ask the Registry to
22 display admitted Exhibit P293.287.
23 Q. Mr. Witness, you had an opportunity to -- to look at this
24 document on your screen. Do you recognise what that document is?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what is it?
2 A. My friends who got killed in the minefield.
3 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to number 10, which, I believe,
4 is on the second page in the -- in the English.
5 The name there, Bosko Bodjanac, now it says there that he was
6 killed in a -- in the minefield.
7 A. Bosko was killed before we reached the minefield. He was killed
8 on that curve on the road. But he was also buried in the same mass
10 Q. And directing your attention to number 4, which is on page 1 in
11 the English, Josip Turkalj.
12 A. Josip was in the minefield, but he was shot in the back. I
13 suppose that the bullet wounded him in the spine. That's why he kept on
14 repeating that he had lost his legs. He was also put on a truck in order
15 to be taken to the hospital; but later on, we heard that he had succumbed
16 to his wounds on the way to the hospital.
17 Q. Directing your attention now number 9, Marko Vidic, and that name
18 would appear on page 2 in the English.
19 A. Yes. I can't remember what exactly happened. The man is dead,
20 but somehow I cannot recall him as having been with us in the minefield.
21 I simply -- I'm -- I must have forgotten about that.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, after the minefield killings on October 17, did the
23 Croatian population in Lovas increase or did it decrease?
24 A. It decreased.
25 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how that happened?
1 A. Expulsions started. The women and children whose husbands were
2 not there were told that they had to leave the village. They had to sign
3 a piece of paper to the effect of leaving their property to the
4 SAO Krajina. They signed those documents, and they went in the direction
5 of Sid. That was the only place they could go to, and, from there, they
6 would either go to Bosnia or to some other parts of Croatia via Bosnia.
7 They did what they could from there on.
8 Q. You described that there were women and children who were told
9 that they had to leave the village. Were men also told that they had to
10 leave the village?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did there come a time that you left Lovas?
13 A. Yes. I left Lovas on the 24th of December. Mr. Grkovic had told
14 me that I would be brought in. Those people who were brought in were
15 first beaten and they still had to leave. He told me that I would be
16 brought in. I spent that night with my family in the village because I
17 was afraid that they would find me at home and bring me in. Then I took
18 the first transportation in the morning to go to Sid, and from there, I
19 went to Croatia.
20 Q. Did you leave alone?
21 A. No, with my family. My wife, my children, and my mother.
22 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, if I could have one moment to confer
23 with my colleague.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, the Prosecution has no further
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Witness. My name is
7 Zoran Zivanovic, and I am defending Mr. Hadzic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I wanted to ask you something. The name of someone who was
14 wounded was mentioned several times. He was wounded when the second mine
15 exploded. I think his surname has been incorrectly recorded in the
16 transcript. So could you tell us what his surname is, in fact?
17 A. Stjepan Pejic stood on a mine and he was leading Mujic.
18 Q. Is his surname Pejic or Peulic?
19 A. Peulic. I'm sorry. Peulic.
20 Q. Thank you. You remember that on the 23rd of November, 2007, you
21 gave a statement to the county court in Vukovar.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It's 1D152; Defence Exhibit 1D152. I'm not going to ask you
24 anything about the contents of that statement and what you said there,
25 but only about one part where you mentioned the statement that you gave
1 to The Hague Tribunal. I believe you can have a look at page number 3 of
2 your statement.
3 Just a minute so that we can zoom in. It will be easier to read.
4 Page 3.
5 There's a gap between two paragraphs and it says: When the
6 witness was asked, the witness said that he had an objection to the
7 translation of the record of his statement that he gave to investigators
8 from The Hague Tribunal in 1996.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So what I wanted to ask you is: When you gave your statement to
11 investigators from The Hague Tribunal, did you give that statement in the
12 Croatian language?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And were you immediately shown that -- that statement in Croatian
15 or in English?
16 A. The statement was given to me here in The Hague in Croatian.
17 Q. When you say "in The Hague," was it given in 1996 or later when
18 you came --
19 A. When I came to the Tribunal. When I came here.
20 Q. According to my information, that must have been in 2003.
21 A. I think it was later than that.
22 Q. So could you tell me when you had objections to the translation
23 when you were shown the translation?
24 A. When I had the videolink, it appeared that certain interpretation
25 mistakes or translation mistakes may have been made. Here I see that I
1 said that there was some mistake that was made in the -- in the record.
2 Q. Very well. In any event, did you tell the investigative judge
3 from the Vukovar County Court that you objected to the translation of the
4 record of your statement that was given to The Hague Tribunal
5 investigators in 1996?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. So did you discuss this statement with the investigative judge at
8 the county court in Vukovar?
9 A. No. I just said that there was something that I failed to say.
10 I said that I had a pass in the name of my mother. 4795, military post.
11 I said it would be photocopied but that document wasn't included anyway.
12 It's a pass that people were given who would leave the -- that people who
13 would leave the village could use in order to go and work in gardens, in
14 yards and so on and so forth. So this pass, MP 4795 --
15 Q. Just tell me, when you say that that pass was taken from you in
16 order to make a photocopy of it, who took it from you?
17 A. The investigator in Primosten which is where I was a refugee.
18 Q. Do you mean an investigator from The Hague Tribunal or an
19 investigator from --
20 A. From The Hague Tribunal.
21 Q. He returned it to you.
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. Could that be the pass that you mentioned signed by someone
24 called Kovac?
25 A. Yes, Marko Kovac. Anyone who had leave the village to work in
1 the fields would receive such a pass. They couldn't pass through the
2 reservists' check-points without that pass. My mother kept it in her
3 wallet and that is how we had that piece of evidence with us.
4 Q. Tell me now, with regard to these people who would leave the
5 village in order to perform labour, and I'm speaking about the Croats
6 now, did they also have to wear those white arm-bands?
7 A. Yes. That was obligatory. They had to have these white
9 Q. Very well, sir. In conclusion, with regard to what it says in
10 your statement given to the county court in Croatia, with regard to the
11 objections you had to the transcript, well, that is not, in fact,
12 something you said.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the establishment of village guards, the
15 village guards that were set up in Lovas. You said that this took place
16 after the incident in Borovo village.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you obtain information on the incident in Borovo village,
19 on the details, on the details of what happened there?
20 A. We would watch television and, of course, you can see everything
21 on the news. So it was by watching television.
22 Q. Did you know that, at the time, most of the inhabitants in Borovo
23 village were Serbs?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you knew that there was a clash in Borovo Selo between the
1 Serbs from Borovo Selo, on the one hand, and the Croatian police, on the
2 other hand?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you know whether the Croatian police were from Borovo village
5 or had they come from somewhere else to Borovo Selo?
6 A. All we heard was what we heard on television, that a bus full of
7 policemen came to Borovo Selo and that they launched an attack on Borovo
9 Q. I'm asking you about this because I can see some significant
10 differences between Borovo village and Lovas. There was a Croatian -- a
11 bus with Croatian policemen and an attack was launched in Borovo village.
12 That's what the media in Croatia said; whereas in Lovas, most of the
13 inhabitants were Croats. It wasn't -- there was no danger that a bus of
14 Croatian police might be attacked there. So why was the incident in
15 Borovo village the reason for which the guards in Lovas were mounted?
16 A. Well, I wasn't that familiar with everything. All I knew was
17 that there was such an incident. I'd learnt about it over the
18 television. Our leaders wanted guards to be mounted. I wasn't involved
19 in politics and so on. I was an ordinary citizen. I was working in
20 Borovo. The company went bankrupt. I tried to find work on the private
21 market to feed my children. I wasn't interested in politics at all. I
22 abided by the decisions taken in the village. I tried to fit in.
23 Q. When say that the leaders took this decision, can you tell us who
24 these leaders were in Lovas, the leaders who took that decision?
25 A. Well, our people from the village who were in the village
1 committees. In every village, there are certain leaders.
2 Q. Do you perhaps remember their names?
3 A. Zeljko Cirba, Markica Gracanac, Ivica Mujic, I think.
4 Franjo Mujic. Those were the people.
5 Q. Were you involved in the guards? Did you ever participate in the
6 guards that were mounted?
7 A. Yes, on several occasions.
8 Q. What sort of instructions were you given when you went on guard
9 duty? What did you have to control, to check?
10 A. There were exits from the village on two sides. There was an
11 ordinary path from the field out of the village. I had a hunting rifle,
12 dual-barrel hunting rifle. They gave it to me in the evening; I returned
13 it in the morning. Quite simply, if someone was entering the village one
14 had to report on this. Guard duty was mounted at night usually. Nothing
15 much was done in the course of the day.
16 Q. Who did you have to report to if someone appeared?
17 A. There was always someone on duty in the municipality, someone to
18 whom one could submit a report.
19 Q. And how would you do this? I don't believe had you any mobile
20 phones at the time.
21 A. No. There were two of us. One would go up there by foot - it
22 was perhaps 5- or 600 metres away - and would make a report. There were
23 no mobile phones at the time.
24 Q. And the other person was to detain the person who was coming.
25 A. Well, that would have been difficult to do with a hunting rifle.
1 Q. Tell me, can you tell us from whom you received those
2 instructions about what you had to do at the check-point?
3 A. From Nikica Maric.
4 Q. Did you perhaps hear that around 1990 in Lovas, immediately after
5 the HDZ committee had been established, a decision was taken on
6 organising the HDZ along military lines?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Could you tell us whether you heard that in 1990, because of
9 weapons obtained in Hungary, some citizens in Lovas were arrested,
10 including Nikica Maric?
11 A. No.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 1836 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. What was the role of the guards once the war started in the
22 autumn of 1991, in the months of September and October, and especially
23 during the attack on Lovas?
24 A. It was just a matter of prevention. We did not have any arms.
25 We knew that with the hunting rifles and the four or five automatic
1 rifles we had, we could not stop anybody. It was just to raise an alert
2 and to warn the villagers if something was happening. There was -- there
3 were no plans for putting up any organised resistance because we did not
4 have the means to do so.
5 Q. According to the information that we have, in 1990, in Lovas, a
6 volunteer detachment was set up in Lovas. It numbered about 120 men. Do
7 you know anything about that?
8 A. No. I heard that here at the Tribunal when I was here the first
10 Q. According to that information, that detachment was set up by the
11 HDZ. Those who were members of the HDZ were members of that detachment.
12 They supported the HDZ policies.
13 A. I don't know anything about that. If any such thing did occur,
14 then only those who were involved knew about that.
15 Q. Well, you see, Lovas is a very small place. It had about
16 1400 Croats all together before the war, as far as I understood it.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If a volunteer detachment was set up, and if it numbered 120 men,
19 one would assume that every tenth villager of Lovas was involved in that
20 detachment, i.e., that every tenth member of the Croatian community was
21 involved. Would it be possible for something like that to go unnoticed
22 by others?
23 A. I don't know about others. I certainly was not interested in
24 that. I stood guard only two or three times, when I was told to do so,
25 and that was the end of my involvement in all that.
1 Q. Do you know that in the village of Bogdanovci, a review was held
2 with all the volunteer detachments from the region participating. There
3 was a total of 1500 to 2000 members of the volunteer detachments and the
4 volunteer detachment from Lovas also participated. The 120 men from that
6 A. I also heard that here at The Hague Tribunal, and then I
7 discussed the matter with some of the villagers and they confirmed that.
8 But I was not in attendance so I can't say anything about that.
9 Q. And now I would like to ask you about the operation that the
10 Yugoslav People's Army and the others, reservists, the Territorial
11 Defence and the Dusan Silni unit carried out on the 10th of October,
12 1991, targeting Lovas.
13 Was there any armed resistance put up against that operation?
14 A. No, no such thing happened.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at 1D161. It
16 is an exhibit on our list.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
18 MS. BIERSAY: I am rising just to understand the protocol that
19 we're using. I understand that when we're using prior -- when we're
20 using this type of information, it shouldn't be displayed to the witness
21 and the source of the information shouldn't be disclosed. That's what I
22 understood the -- the protocol to be in handling this type of
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have no -- yes, Mr. --
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I understood that it is protocol for the eventual
1 witness before the Tribunal but this person is not on the list either of
2 Prosecution or Defence.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have no idea what -- what this is about. I
4 have something in -- oh, no. I have nothing on my screen. So I don't
5 know what -- what this exhibit is.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 1D161. Anyway, I do not object, if this document
7 should not be -- be published.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
9 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, I can't speak about the -- the
10 substance of this document because I don't have it in -- in English. And
11 I apologise if -- if I do, but I don't see that I do. And we received
12 this just this morning, and I haven't been able to confirm that we have
13 an English version of it.
14 But what I understood the guide-lines to be from the
15 Trial Chamber is that to the extent that there are propositions to be put
16 to a witness, the propositions themselves should be put to the witness
17 and not the source from which the propositions are coming.
18 So if, for example, to use an example, if Defence counsel wants
19 to use a statement of a witness, he does not put the witness -- the
20 statement before the witness, one, and he does not say, This is a
21 statement from a witness, what do you have to say about that. Just to
22 give a very simplistic example.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is correct, but I still don't know what this
24 is. Do we have an English translation, Mr. Zivanovic?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Translation is pending, is still pending.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Then we'd object to the use of the document at this
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would use just three sentences from this
4 document -- just two sentences, Your Honour, from this document, and I
5 wouldn't tender this document into evidence.
6 MS. BIERSAY: The position that I am now in is that I can't
7 assess those three sentences in light of the whole document.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, could you put the question to the
10 witness without using the document?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I already --
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose it's a piece of information you have.
13 So give him -- give the witness the information and ask whether he --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Actually, I already put the question to him. It
15 is related to the armed -- armed resistance on 10th of October --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, but --
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- and I would -- to confront the witness with
18 another statement of -- with another statement, opposite statement.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, then, you have information going in the
20 opposite side and tell the witness.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: And please repeat your -- your question, because
23 I'm sure that, in the meantime, the witness has forgotten about it.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I do, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'm not saying your name because you are a
1 protected witness.
2 Sir, you see, we received the following information from a
4 The struggle for our village, Lovas, lasted for not more than a
5 few hours, four or five all together. The resistance and defence was
6 carried out by members of the ZNG including our locals, i.e., all of them
7 are -- were locals. And all of those who were fighting, i.e., who
8 defended the village, eventually withdrew in the direction of Ilok.
9 A. All I can say is that there was no resistance. From the moment
10 infantry fire was opened, I was in the centre of the village, some 600 or
11 700 metres from the entrance into the village, which is in Opatovac. It
12 took them about 15 or 20 minutes to get to the centre of the village.
13 I'm not even questioning the person who provided that statement. He has
14 his opinion; I have mine. I cannot comment upon another person's
15 statement that I do not support. I stand by what I know and what I saw.
16 Q. Do you know that there were ZNG members in Lovas?
17 A. I know that they arrived and they spent a few days in Lovas, some
18 dozen of them, and they disappeared in the same way they came. I don't
19 know where they went to.
20 Q. Were there any locals among them?
21 A. As far as I could see, they were all lads unknown to me.
22 Q. According to what you know, what did they do in the village? Why
23 were they in the village? What was their mission?
24 A. I know that they were driving around. They spent some time in
25 the cafe. I did not see them engaging in any particular activities
1 during the few days that they were there.
2 Q. Where were they billeted? Where did they sleep?
3 A. In the old school.
4 Q. Do you know that when the JNA volunteers and other Serb forces
5 entered the village of Lovas that one of the volunteers got killed?
6 A. No, I don't know that. I only heard that later Vorkapic got
7 killed. Milorad Vorkapic was killed by a grenade at the farm somewhere
8 around there. Allegedly, he actually activated a grenade himself.
9 Q. I'm talking about the 10th of October, the day when the JNA
10 entered the village.
11 A. Yes, I understand, but I don't know that anybody was killed on
12 that day.
13 Q. You testified about JNA soldiers, about reservists, about the
14 Territorial Defence, about the members of the Dusan Silni unit. So let
15 me ask you this: At that time do you remember, do you know, as a matter
16 of fact, whether one could make a distinction between a regular,
17 active-duty JNA soldier and a reservist?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you help us with that?
20 A. Regular soldiers were all young lads who were well groomed,
21 clean-shaven; whereas reservists, we were all reservists at the time. We
22 all had love handles. We had longer hair. They all sported five-pointed
23 stars on their caps, both the regular army and the reservists. The
24 Dusan Silni unit, the local Serbs, some of them wore civilian trousers or
25 civilian jackets. Some had militia caps without any insignia on them.
1 Some were without caps. Some had civilian clothes. They were all armed.
2 Well, it was not difficult for anybody to tell that they were not regular
3 active-duty soldiers but, rather, a paramilitary formation. When the
4 Valjevo men first appeared, they were all tall and strong. They had
5 camouflage uniforms, they had ammunition belts and weapons, and one could
6 easily tell that those were experienced soldiers, as it were. That they
7 were not rookies.
8 Q. On several occasions, we have mentioned men from Valjevo and
9 Valjevci. For the benefit of everybody in the -- of everybody in the
10 courtroom, let's just say that Valjevo is a town in Serbia; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And now I'm moving on to the topic of the minefield.
13 As you were being driven in the direction of the clover field,
14 you all sported pieces of white cloth, as you told us.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I believe that you were in the middle and that the soldiers
17 were on your flanks and that later on you swapped places.
18 A. Yes. They told us to swap places because if the Ustasha opened
19 fire, they should first fire at us. We were like their living shields of
21 Q. You explained to us what the purpose was of the white pieces of
22 cloth on the Croatian houses, but what was the purpose of the pieces of
23 white cloth on your arms?
24 A. So everybody would know that we were Croats. Because when you
25 look at two men, you can't tell whether they're a Serb or a Croat. That
1 was the only sign of distinction. To say that we were Croats, that we
2 were slaves that had to work for the others.
3 Q. And I'm putting that in a context. Just a while ago, you told us
4 that people who went to work on their fields also sported those white
5 arm-bands. Would that perhaps be a sign that those were the villagers of
7 A. No. We had to wear those arm-bands in the village and in the
8 gardens that were about 500 metres away from the boundaries of the
9 village. They would never allow a husband and a wife, together with
10 their children, to leave. They would not allow the entire families to go
11 out of the village and give them an opportunity to escape. For example,
12 I never went with my family. My mother would go, and she also had to
13 wear that white cloth on her arm.
14 Q. Did you hear anyone saying that sniper fire was being opened on
15 the JNA from a forest called Jelas, I think?
16 A. There were such rumours. These men in uniform would say that,
17 the reservists and the others. They said that fire was being opened on
18 them, and so on and so forth, but they were also opening fire in the
19 village all the time. So we, in the village, didn't really know who was
20 opening fire and from where.
21 Q. When they took you to that clover field, were you told that you
22 were, in fact, going there because sniper fire was opened on them at
23 night and so on?
24 A. They said we were going to that part of the village to see if
25 there were any Ustasha there. They said they were taking us there as
2 Q. If I have understood you correctly, the purpose of these white
3 rags was in order to make sure that Croatian forces could see that you
4 had these distinguishing marks?
5 A. Whatever we did in the village, all the people had to wear these
6 white arm-bands.
7 Q. Yes, I've understood that.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic, but I didn't.
9 Mr. Witness, do you mean all the people; or do you mean all the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the Croats.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [No interpretation]
14 MS. BIERSAY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the translation for the
15 last --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises: Could I please see
17 Exhibit 158. 1D158.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We exactly expected to cross-examine this witness
19 tomorrow. Or not tomorrow but on Friday.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Didn't -- didn't we agree to have the
21 cross-examination only start today not yesterday?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. But in this arrangement, translation
23 service was not included.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So -- so is this, again, a -- a document
25 for which the translation is pending?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And is it now on the screen or is this the
3 previous one?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. It is on the screen. No, it is not
5 previous document.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, no, it's another one, indeed.
7 Ms. Biersay.
8 MS. BIERSAY: I'm just concerned that the Trial Chamber hasn't
9 made a decision about whether or not this document can be shown to the
10 witness, and I believe it's already on his screen.
11 Could we -- could we perhaps turn off that screen while we
12 discuss that document, because I would object to its use because I don't
13 know what it is.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just say this is not a witness statement.
16 It is it only Official Note. But ... okay.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, do you have a problem with this
18 document not being translated?
19 MS. BIERSAY: I do because I don't understand it. And I -- I --
20 I won't understand what's going on.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, your last remark about the
22 translation services, do I understand you correctly that it would have
23 been translated -- or it will be translated by tomorrow?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know. It all depends -- doesn't depend
25 on me.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: So whether you start your cross-examination today
2 or tomorrow wouldn't really make a difference.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think we -- we're not here -- we do not have
4 sitting tomorrow but the day after tomorrow.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: The day after. But even then, that wouldn't make
6 a difference, would it?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Actually, I expected that the -- by the Friday
8 the document would be translated. But, anyway, I'm not make the problem.
9 I'll not put this document to the witness. And --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Actually ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, could you indicate whether you
14 have other such documents that are pending translation?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No. Not at the moment. Except the documents
16 already mentioned here.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I could use this document with another witness
19 when -- when the translation come.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed. Thank you.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'd now like to ask you the following, since you were in the
23 village all the time.
24 What would your assessment be of the relationship between the
25 JNA, or, rather, its officers who arrived in the village and the others?
1 I mean the paramilitary units and so on. In other words, was it your
2 impression that they could influence the conduct of the members of those
3 paramilitary units?
4 A. They mounted guards around the villages, the reservists did that,
5 and these others did whatever they wanted. Some would go to empty houses
6 and loot the property. They'd take things that they needed in the
7 centre. At night they would appear and take people away. Since there
8 was a curfew at around 5.00, they didn't prevent anyone from doing things
9 of that sort. At least I didn't hear anything of that. They had the
10 green light to do whatever they wanted, in my opinion, and we were sort
11 of surrounded in the village. That was the impression that I had. We
12 were being guarded.
13 Q. Were you under the impression that they could have used a red
14 light instead of giving them the green light? Could they have prevented
15 them from doing such things?
16 A. Yes, they could have.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions for you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, re-direct?
20 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:
22 Q. Mr. Witness, you were asked some questions about the ZNG coming
23 to Lovas. Do you recall those questions?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you recall when they came to Lovas?
1 A. Well, sometime at the beginning of July.
2 Q. Of what year?
3 A. 1991.
4 Q. You described that Croats had to wear the white arm-bands when
5 they went to work in the fields. Could you clarify for the Trial Chamber
6 whether they were allowed to work in their own fields or were they
7 working in other fields?
8 A. On other fields.
9 Q. And the items that they collected or what they took from the
10 fields, what did they do with them; do you know?
11 A. Usually they would pick corn with people who were killed [as
12 interpreted]. These were put in private containers - they didn't have
13 this at their disposal - or they would transport it to the farm, to the
14 agricultural co-operative, and the corn would also be put in silos there.
15 The produce would also be put in the silos that were there.
16 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honours. I have nothing further.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have a question I'd like to put
21 to you to clarify something. It relates to document P293, and then 287.
23 Mr. Registrar, could we see the document. If I'm not mistaken,
24 it is the list of persons who were killed in the minefield.
25 That's it. We have the document on the screen now.
1 I asked to see this document because I don't know where the
2 contradiction is. In the transcript, on page 9, line 23, it seems to me
3 that we are discussing the incident that took place on the
4 17th of October, 1991; whereas in this document, 293.287, when we read
5 the first line, it says on the 18th of October, 1991.
6 Mr. Witness, could you tell me exactly when this incident in the
7 minefield took place?
8 A. On the 18th of October, 1991.
9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. So I see that there
10 was mistake in the transcript.
11 Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, I have a follow-up question about
13 this list of names about the people that were killed in the minefield.
14 You said to the Prosecution -- to the Prosecutor that you seem
15 unable to remember that number 9 of the list, Marko -- yes, Marko Vidic
16 was among the people killed that day.
17 So that leaves 20 other names you looked at. My question is:
18 The other names, do you remember them being killed in the minefield? Do
19 you remember them as being among the dead bodies you loaded on the truck?
20 So can you confirm that those 20 people are 20 people killed in
21 the minefield?
22 A. Yes. As for Mr. Vidic, I know he is dead, that he was buried,
23 but I just can't remember having seen him in the minefield. Perhaps it's
24 my mind playing tricks on me. I know he was killed and that he was
25 buried, though.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
2 Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to an end, so you are
3 released as a witness. We thank you very much for coming to assist the
4 Tribunal. The court usher will now escort you out of the courtroom, and
5 we wish you a safe journey back home. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: I see it about time for the break. Mr. Stringer,
9 what will happen after the break?
10 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the next witness arrives this
11 afternoon. He doesn't live in Europe. He is travelling all night. So,
12 regrettably, we don't have a -- the next witness here and ready to begin
13 to testify. He will be the fifth witness for the week. We have moved a
14 little faster through the cross-examination than anticipated. And so
15 this witness will be on -- his direct will be shortened a little bit to
16 ensure that he can finish his testimony on Friday, but we do not have the
17 witness here and ready to go at the moment.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: This is not the first time this happens. I don't
19 know whether the fact that the Defence had to start their
20 cross-examination one day before they anticipated has anything to do with
21 it, but could I suggest to the Prosecution to try to avoid this kind of
23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. We -- we absolutely will do
25 It's -- during the earlier phase of the trial, the Defence
1 cross-examinations were going longer than expected. I think the last few
2 days they've gone shorter. It's a bit scary for us to try to book more
3 than five witnesses into a single court week, especially when they're
4 coming from very long away, very far away, which this witness is and he
5 is missing work. So that is a long way of saying that we are well aware
6 of the Chamber's views on this, and we will endeavour to make sure that
7 we don't have much down time.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 Does the Defence have a view on this proposition?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I made my cross estimates on the
11 basis that all areas that I intended to include in it will be permitted.
12 However, two very important areas, two very important areas -- areas of
13 my cross-examination related to two documents are excluded, and because
14 of that, my cross estimate was not valid anymore.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you exclude two? I thought it was only one.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, two. First it was a statement of one
17 witness. I can --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- say his name in private session, if you like.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: But you asked --
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And the second is the Official Note.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, the Official Note, I agree, but --
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And before that it was something that I quoted to
24 the witness but with no possibility to -- to analyse this document --
25 document with him.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.
3 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, also being behind -- well, also
4 being under steady pressure in the world of translations, it's difficult,
5 we understand, for the Defence to take a lengthy document of any kind,
6 such as a witness statement, and to have the entire document translated
7 when it may be that they just want to use a part of it for cross. As the
8 Chamber has heard, the concern is that in that situation, the Prosecution
9 is not necessarily in a position to -- to see the context in which the
10 particular excerpt is being used.
11 We will -- we would propose -- I guess, the Prosecution's view is
12 that we can try to be more flexible so long as it's -- it's not a
13 frequent situation, but where there are lengthy exam -- witness
14 examinations, only a part of which they want to use on cross, it may be
15 that the Prosecution can revise its position and to not object to a part
16 being used so long as the interpreters read it out so that it can be
17 interpreted, and if, perhaps, the Prosecution could then have time to
18 examine the document and to come back to it in re-direct. But, again,
19 that would probably also involve coming back to a document that's not
20 been fully translated. Some of these Belgrade and Osijek witness
21 testimonies are lengthy, and when they are a testimony of somebody who is
22 not a witness in this case, it's just something that on the priorities
23 for translation doesn't always rise so high.
24 It may be that the parties can find a way to try to work through
25 this so that the Defence is able to use more of its documents on cross.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, the first document, this is the
2 lengthy one?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is three-pages document, but I did not intend
4 to use all three pages. Just some of -- some parts of these documents --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- and to put the witness some questions relating
7 to --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: And the second one?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- these parts.
10 And the second one is Official Note of military security.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: One page?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: One or two pages.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
14 Mr. Stringer, would a -- a break -- the break, or a break of
15 one hour helpful for you to -- I don't say translate but to know what is
16 in the documents so that after that, we could give Mr. Zivanovic a go for
17 his cross?
18 MR. STRINGER: Yes. We were going to propose -- we think it's a
19 good idea.
20 I don't know if I could suggest if we know, if we had an idea
21 what part of the longer document counsel has in mind that we could look
22 around that. The second one is just a one-page document.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So you could start with the one-page
24 document. And, in the meantime, Mr. Zivanovic could provide you with one
25 highlighted second document, let's say, the longer one.
1 Would half an hour suffice or would you prefer an hour?
2 MR. STRINGER: I think ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Okay. Let's hope that the witness is not
5 on his way to the hotel.
6 So an hour?
7 MR. STRINGER: An hour would be good, yes --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
9 MR. STRINGER: -- Mr. President. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So let's -- 11.30. Would that be okay?
11 MR. STRINGER: Yes.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned. We will come back at 11.30.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are the parties ready to continue?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The witness may be brought in.
20 We will have to break at the normal time due to commitments
21 before we knew this -- this would happen.
22 MS. BIERSAY: Do you mean at 2.00, Your Honour, or ...
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: No. I mean at 12.15 --
24 MS. BIERSAY: Ah, I understand.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- for half an hour.
1 MS. BIERSAY: One question, Your Honours. I wondered if it was
2 the Trial Chamber's intent to -- to give him the oath again or simply do
3 something else.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would suggest to tell him that he is still
5 under his oath. But if anybody feels that this is not appropriate and
6 that I should take an oath again --
7 MS. BIERSAY: I will tell the Trial Chamber that as is our usual
8 practice -- could we hold the witness just for a minute?
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
10 MS. BIERSAY: I'm very sorry. Just to let the Trial Chamber know
11 that as it is our usual practice, we meet with the witnesses afterwards,
12 and our interpreter and our investigator met him, but I -- I wasn't
13 present, and I don't think anything was discussed. Usually it is to
14 thank them for coming and so forth. So I don't know if that contact
15 would require a ...
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you see any problem by just saying to the
18 witness that he is still under his oath, Mr. Zivanovic?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours. But I would ask him whether he
20 discussed any topic from his examination and from his testimony with the
21 investigator in the meanwhile.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Could the witness be brought in, please.
23 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, I could ask that the Court ask those
24 questions so that he doesn't get the impression he has done something
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. I think that's what Mr. Zivanovic meant.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please be seated, Mr. Witness.
4 We're very sorry for the inconvenience, Mr. Witness, and for the
5 somewhat unusual things that are happening for the moment.
6 After -- after going out of court, and I don't know whether you
7 left the Tribunal immediately or not, did you -- did you speak to anyone
8 from the Prosecutor's office?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: No. Are you satisfied with the answer,
11 Mr. Zivanovic?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I am. Thank you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, is it possible for me to ask a
15 question to clarify? Perhaps he didn't understand fully the question.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: What question would you like me to ask,
17 Ms. Biersay?
18 MS. BIERSAY: Whether after he -- that there's nothing wrong if
19 he had contact, but if he met with an interpreter and anyone that he had
20 met during proofing. There's nothing wrong with that but just to ask.
21 Maybe he just didn't fully understand.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Mr. Witness, as we told you that this was
23 the end of your testimony, you were able to talk to anybody. Now that we
24 have this particular kind of thing happening, we have to ask you whether
25 you -- you spoke, in the meantime, with an interpreter or anyone that you
1 had contact with during the proofing after your testimony, so in the last
2 hour. Did you? Did you see anyone?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two persons who
4 interpreted and a gentleman who was involved in the proofing. But that
5 really didn't take long. Perhaps a minute or a couple of minutes. We
6 did not discuss the case at all. They just greeted me and thanked me,
7 and, after that, somebody came to tell me that I would have to come back
8 into the courtroom.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So what -- the important thing you mention is
11 that you did not discuss the case and your testimony with these people;
12 is that right?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So there are a few more questions that
15 will be put to you, Mr. Witness, and I would remind you that for those
16 reasons, you are still under your oath -- under the oath. You
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 WITNESS: GH-095 [Re-called]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Again, good morning to you, sir.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I would like to ask you, first of all, whether you know some
3 people from the village whose names are Berislav Filic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Anton Pavosevic [phoen].
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Markica Gracanac?
8 A. Yes, but the name is Grcanac.
9 Q. Yes, Grcanac, I apologise. Branko Krizmanic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Franjo Mujic.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Jozo Milas.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We know that there are two names, Markica Grcanac and
16 Marko Grcanac. Are we talking about one and the same person or are these
17 two people?
18 A. Those two people are a father and a son.
19 Q. I have already told you that we have heard about a volunteer
20 detachment numbering some 120 men that was set up in Lovas. According to
21 the information that we have - and this is it our Exhibit 2803, which was
22 used in private session - this is on page 103 of the English transcript.
23 We heard that Markica Grcanac was the commander of that volunteer
24 detachment numbering 120 people in Lovas. Do you know that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Do you know anything about the two kilos of explosives that were
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know anything about the manufacture of explosive devices?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And what about cash loans that were given by the agricultural
7 co-operative in Lovas?
8 A. I don't know anything about that. I was not an employee of the
9 co-operative. I was unemployed at the time, so I really don't know
10 anything about the business operations of the agricultural co-operative.
11 Q. Well, you see, I did not mean that you were either a beneficiary
12 of that loan or that you were the one who granted those loans on behalf
13 of the agricultural co-operative. But do you know whether some other
14 villagers of Lovas were granted those loans amounting to 5- or
15 6.000 dinars that they could use for the purchase of agricultural
16 equipment? Did you hear about that about any of your neighbours or
18 A. I know that some of the co-operating farmers could be granted
19 loans from the co-operative in order to purchase equipment or seeds or
20 things like that, but those people had to have a co-operation agreement
21 with the agricultural co-operative.
22 Q. Do you know that those funds were used to purchase weapons?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I am going to share with you some information that's from 1D152,
25 which should not be publicly broadcast. The document is being translated
1 as we speak.
2 I already showed you one part of this.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It should not be on the screen of the ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: It -- it's not broadcast, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay. Okay.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Let me jog your memory. This is the information
8 that we are privy to, according to which the struggle for Lovas lasted
9 for not more than a few hours. You already answered that part of my
10 question. It says here that all those who participated in the fighting
11 were actually locals.
12 Further on, according to the same information, those who did not
13 participate in the fighting, in practical terms, those were elderly
14 people, women and children, they remained in the village. Those who
15 participated in the fighting withdrew in the direction of Ilok. That's
16 what we established. You will remember that, won't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When that fighting broke out, i.e., when the JNA and other
19 formations entered the village, did people withdraw from Lovas?
20 A. Yes, they did. All those who resided on the edges of the village
21 escaped and left the village.
22 Q. How many of -- of those people were there?
23 A. About 60 per cent of the total population.
24 Q. When you say "60 per cent of the total population," do you really
25 mean the total population or the Croatian population?
1 A. The Croatian population. Two or three days, we realised that the
2 people were simply not there, and we knew that they had fled.
3 Q. Is it correct, then, that only the elderly, the women, and the
4 children, remained in the village and that those who had participated in
5 the fighting fled?
6 A. As far as I know, there was no fighting at all. Some younger
7 people remained, including myself, with families, but the majority were
8 the elderly, the women, and the children. They were the ones who
9 remained in Lovas.
10 Q. According to the information that we have, the first who entered
11 the village was a unit comprising some 80 men. Apparently it was a
12 police unit. However, that those were only the villagers of Lovas.
13 A. There were villagers, but there were other -- some unknown
14 people, as well as some people I knew, but they were not from Lovas but
15 from some other places.
16 Q. When you say that the locals of Lovas entered, does that mean
17 that they were previously not in Lovas?
18 A. Yes. That means that they had left before.
19 Q. Do you know why?
20 A. I don't.
21 Q. Since the situation was rather calm in Lovas, didn't it strike
22 you as odd that some Serbs were not there?
23 A. Yes, we knew that they were missing. They simply disappeared.
24 We didn't know where they had gone to.
25 Q. Did anybody question their whereabouts?
1 A. If anybody did, the answer was always: We don't know where they
3 Q. Did anybody try to find out why they had left?
4 A. No, nobody said anything. Nobody said why they left, when they
5 had left, where they had gone to.
6 Q. When those locals, or some of those locals, returned as members
7 of the unit that entered Lovas, could they immediately notice that
8 approximately 60 per cent of the Croats who had lived in Lovas before the
9 war were no longer there?
10 A. Yes. They could see that because they inspected one house after
11 the other, and they could immediately see which houses were abandoned.
12 Q. Did they question the reasons for which so many people left
14 A. I don't know. I wouldn't know that.
15 Q. Nobody asked you personally?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Furthermore, according to the information that we have, the Serbs
18 from your region more or less joined the police, the courts, the local
19 authorities; is that correct?
20 A. I don't know who stated that, but there was an equal
21 representation, and there were no tensions or anything to distinguish the
22 Serbs from the Croats in that respect.
23 Q. In a nutshell, there was a proportionate representation of the
24 Serbs and Croats in the police, judiciary, and so on and so forth?
25 A. I can't talk about any proportions or ratios. I really can't.
1 Q. With this regard, this document continues to say:
2 We allowed them that. After the elections, for about a year and
3 a half, we continued to live normally.
4 When it says here "we allowed them to do that," do you know who
5 was it -- please, I did not finish my question. Could you allow me to
7 Do you know who was it who allowed the Serbs in Lovas to find
8 employment with the police, the courts, the local authorities?
9 A. No.
10 Q. After the elections.
11 A. No. I only know that we continued to live peacefully, without
12 any tensions, without any tugs of war or skirmishes or anything.
13 Q. When it says here "after the elections," this is a reference to
14 the elections at which the HDZ was victorious in Lovas.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I assume that if somebody says, We allowed them that, it
17 would have been a member of the HDZ; right?
18 A. Probably.
19 Q. Thank you. And now let me move to another document, which is
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I do not whether the document should be
22 broadcasted or not.
23 MS. BIERSAY: We don't object to it being broadcast.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
25 Q. [Interpretation] We will have a document -- document on the
1 screen so you will be able to look at it.
2 This is a document which was compiled by the Ministry of Defence
3 of the Republic of Serbia on the 22nd of March, 2007. This is an
4 Official Note about a piece of information that was received from a
5 citizen. You can see the name of that citizen, as well as all the other
6 personal data.
7 He says that, on the 21st September 1991, he became the commander
8 of the Territorial Defence of the 4th Operations Zone, that the
9 mobilisation of some of the elements of the 4th Operations Zone was
10 carried out on the 16th and 17th September, 1991 - in other words, that
11 some of the units were mobilised - and he says when the hand-over took
12 place between him and the former commander. We are interested in the
13 part where he says that the units of the Territorial Defence of the
14 4th Operations Zone, pursuant to an order of the Republican Staff of the
15 Territorial Defence of Serbia, were joined with the operations units and
16 they were resubordinated to them.
17 Let me ask you: Do you understand the term "resubordinated"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you explain?
20 A. That means that they were subordinated to somebody who issued
21 them orders.
22 Q. Further on, it says that the TO units did not get assigned their
23 zone of responsibility. They did not independently carry out combat
24 activities. Their main purpose -- and you can follow all that on the
25 screen, whatever you prefer.
1 A. I prefer listening to you.
2 Q. Their main purpose was to maintain order, to prevent looting, and
3 to assist with the establishment of authorities, and all that was done
4 while they were parts of operative units and while they were under the
5 operative unit's command.
6 I would like to shed some light on that. The TO units that
7 arrived in Lovas, did you and the citizens of Lovas know that their task
8 was to maintain order, prevent looting, and assist with the establishment
9 of authorities?
10 A. I'm not familiar with the name of this person. And whatever you
11 have just said, they said everything right the opposite. They terrorised
12 people, they looted. They did just the opposite to what is mentioned in
13 this order. They did just the opposite.
14 Q. I'm coming to Lovas. Furthermore, it says, at the beginning of
15 October, I believe on the 7th of October, I submitted - I apologise - I
16 took the TO Lajkovac and TO Ljig detachments to carry out tasks in the
17 general sector of Tovarnik. Let's just explain. Are you familiar with
18 Lajkovac and Ljig? Do these names ring any bells?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You don't know that they're in the vicinity of Valjevo?
21 A. I know that is there Irig close to us. I don't know about any
23 Q. According to our information, those places are in the general
24 area of Valjevo.
25 Further on, it says:
1 My task as commander, as the TO commander of the 4th Operations
2 Zone, was to carry out mobilisation, to train people, to bring the unit
3 into the sector, to the command post of the 2nd Infantry Motorised
4 Brigade in Tovarnik. And I was supposed to hand over the unit to the
5 brigade commander.
6 Do you know whether, at the time, there was indeed a JNA unit in
7 the area; and, if there was, what unit was that?
8 A. I don't know. They didn't tell us. I only know that the
9 military post was 4795, because documents were stamped with that stamp.
10 Q. And later, he says the later fate of the unit and their
11 engagement depended on the plan of the commander of the 2nd Infantry
12 Motorised Brigade.
13 It says the brigade commander decided that the anti-sabotage
14 detachment should be sent to the Cakovci village and the Ljig Territorial
15 Defence company and the Lajkovac Territorial Defence company should be
16 sent to the village of Lovas.
17 On that very same day, members of the Ljig TO company and the
18 members of the anti-sabotage detachment transferred to Lovas or Cakovci,
19 and the TO from Lajkovci, on the following day in the morning, moved to
20 Lovas. And then he says that, together with the members of the Ljig TO
21 company, he went to Lovas and assisted the company commander. He
22 mentions his name. He assisted in deploying the unit in the village and
23 then returned to Tovarnik and reported to the commander of the
24 2nd Infantry Brigade and continued to Valjevo.
25 Were you aware of this information about these units that were,
1 in fact, in Lovas? That's what I'm interested in.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now this brings us to the incident that occurred. It says that:
4 About seven days later, I took some of the TO units from the
5 4th Operations Zone to rotate in the territory of Eastern Slavonia. And
6 on that occasion, I visited my units in the village of Cakovci and in the
7 village of Lovas. I arrived in Lovas in the evening and I established
8 contact with Lieutenant-Colonel Dimitrijevic from the Valjevo TO staff.
9 Does this name mean anything to you? Lieutenant-Colonel
11 A. No, it's the first time I've heard the name.
12 Q. You saw some active-duty JNA officers and active-duty TO officers
13 in Lovas when you were there.
14 A. Yes. The only name that I know is Marko Kovac. That is the only
15 name of an officer that I, in fact, know.
16 Q. Tell me, does that mean that you don't know of any others, of any
17 other officers? Does that mean that there were no such officers or that
18 they were present but you did not know their names?
19 A. I did not know their names because a lot of them arrived and
20 passed through, and these were people I did not know.
21 Q. The person who gave the statement then says that:
22 On that occasion, Dimitrijevic complained to me because snipers
23 were opening fire on them at night from the direction of the Jelas
25 My question is, once again, whether you heard -- I don't mean
1 from this officer, but whether you heard from the members, from the local
2 Serbs or from members of the Territorial Defence or from someone else
3 that they had this problem with snipers.
4 A. No, I heard nothing about it. We were in our houses at night.
5 We couldn't move around. You could hear shooting, but this was mostly in
6 the village itself. And they didn't provide us with any information.
7 They didn't tell us that someone was opening fire on them or anything of
8 that sort.
9 Q. And could you please tell me something else: Where is that Jelas
10 forest located in relation to the clover field, which is where you were
11 taken to later?
12 A. It's about a kilometre and a half to 2 kilometres away.
13 Q. Does that mean that if you were going from Lovas towards the
14 Jelas forest you would pass by this field on your way there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He goes onto say that he told that officer that no action to
17 search the field was to be taken without the authorisation of the
18 commander of the 2nd Infantry Motorised Brigade, but some Captain
19 Markovic reacted and said that some sort of action should be taken.
20 Have you heard of that name?
21 A. No, I haven't. The only name I know is Marko Kovac. The only
22 officer's name I know is Marko Kovac. As for the other officers, I don't
23 know them.
24 Q. He then says that he provided Devetak with information, that he
25 hadn't been spoken to. He went to see the company commander of the Ljig
1 TO. And when he went to Lovas on the 21st of October, 1991, that was the
2 next time he went there, so that the Valjevo TO could be rotated, he was
3 then informed about locals who had been killed in the village, in the
4 minefield, and he was told that the entire procedure was under the
5 authority of the security organs of the 2nd Guards Infantry Motorised
6 Brigade and the 1st Guards Infantry Battalion.
7 What I'm interested in is: When this happened, after the event,
8 did anyone from those organs who were supposed to be involved in this
9 procedure to determine what had happened in the minefield, did anyone
10 from those organs speak to the locals from Lovas, to the local Croats
11 from Lovas, to some of those, in fact, who had been taken to the
12 minefield and who had been wounded or who, in fact, hadn't been wounded
14 A. As far as I know, no one spoke to anyone.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is his Official Note on the
17 [In English] At this moment I would tender this document into
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Marked for identification is the proposal, I
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
23 MS. BIERSAY: I spoke to counsel originally and I had said that
24 on principle I didn't have any objections to it being tendered. However,
25 I'm afraid this is not the right witness. He has said the first
1 paragraphs contains wrong information, and in all the paragraphs after
2 that, he said that he can't confirm anything, not the names, not the
3 information. So I don't think this witness has laid a sufficient
4 foundation for it to be admitted. But I don't have a problem with it
5 being MFI'd for later use with a proper witness, but the MFI status would
6 not be on the basis of a lack of translation, in my view.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think we would MFI pending another
8 witness if -- if -- if there is no nexus between this witness and the
10 There is another solution, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is no nexus between this witness and the
12 witness who provided this information, but there is a close nexus between
13 testimony of this witness and information provided by this person.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Again, I can only refer to the record. The first
15 paragraph was read to the witness, and he said the information about them
16 being there to prevent certain crimes is absolutely wrong and that they
17 did the opposite.
18 He was asked about the information provided in this document
19 about Tovarnik. He said he didn't know.
20 He was asked about this -- I'm sorry, my Cyrillic is --
21 Dimitrijevic or -- that name. He said he wasn't familiar with that
22 person. In the next paragraph about Jelas, he was asked if he was
23 familiar with the sniper firing. He said he didn't. And that that
24 continued. He confirmed nothing in this document.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, the document fails -- fails nexus,
2 and it will not be admitted through this witness.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that the witness -- that's your decision,
4 okay. I will not comment. Okay. Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement, you said that 70 locals went
6 from Lovas to Ilok. Well, today, in fact, you said 60. But that's not
7 the point of my question. But I noticed that, amongst other things, you
8 said that prior to the meeting -- in fact, could you have a look at your
9 statement. It's the second paragraph.
10 It says that an officer -- or, rather, it says that an ultimatum
11 was issued to the local inhabitants of Lovas, and it says it was decided
12 not to mount any resistance because that would have been ineffective.
13 And in the second paragraph you say:
14 I mustn't forget to say that immediately prior to the meeting of
15 the local inhabitants, one day earlier several Croatian policemen from
16 Ilok came to the village and they collected the Kalashnikovs, a few
17 Kalashnikovs that we had, and they took them to Ilok.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you tell us something about these Kalashnikovs. What do
20 you know about them?
21 A. I didn't see them, but I know that people said that the police
22 arrived and they took several Kalashnikovs.
23 Q. Did they take them from anyone?
24 A. I don't know. All they said is that they appeared and left with
25 those Kalashnikovs. I assumed that the Kalashnikovs were in the
1 municipality building because of the guards that were being mounted. I
2 didn't see them. As I said, I had a hunting rifle.
3 Q. Does that mean that there were others who would mount guard and
4 who had these Kalashnikovs on them?
5 A. I didn't see them.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, would this be an appropriate time?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, we will take the second break. We
9 will have to take that because of earlier commitments during the break.
10 We will be back at 12.45. You will be escorted out of the courtroom now.
11 Thank you.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] I'll now put a few questions to you about the
20 incident in the minefield. And, to be more specific, about the time when
21 the first mine was activated.
22 In your statement, you said the following -- in the Croatian
23 version it's on page 6, paragraph 3.
24 You said that after you had covered about 10 metres, someone
25 cried out and said that he had seen a wire and then an explosion was
2 What I would like know is whether you could tell us, how much
3 time passed between the point when someone said that he saw a wire until
4 the time that the explosion was heard?
5 A. Perhaps a second or two.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic --
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry?
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- page 6, paragraph 3 of what?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Of B/C/S.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: B/C/S of what?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Of -- of the witness statement.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Can we have it on the screen?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just, Your Honour, I tell you what is the
14 paragraph in English.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, is it the 1996 statement to the --
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 1996 statement -- statement is dated the 6th and
18 7th February 1996. It is --
19 MS. BIERSAY: It's 65 ter number --
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
21 MS. BIERSAY: -- 3253.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 243 -- or 213. I cannot read properly.
23 MS. BIERSAY: It's tab 14, I believe, from the Prosecution, and
24 it's 65 ter number 3253, if that assists.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I think it ...
1 Yes, we have it on the screen. It is page -- it is page 6 in
2 B/C/S, and ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
4 MS. BIERSAY: So -- tab 9, 65 ter number 2236. Let's see if
5 that's the one you have in mind.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a precise purpose to
7 go back to this statement? This is a viva voce witness. We do agree,
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. That's the statement I refer to.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I wanted to put the witness -- to -- to put some
12 question related to the event of 18 of October to the witness. If it is
13 not necessary, I will not do it -- do that.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, it's up to know whether it is necessary or
15 not. I'm just a little bit surprised by the fact that you go to a prior
16 statement while the witness gave ample testimony about this in court.
17 But go ahead.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, we shouldn't use this statement, okay, I
20 Q. [Interpretation] In any event, you mentioned the time when the
21 first mine was activated and what I'm interested in, irrespective of what
22 you said in the statement, is how much time elapsed from the time when
23 someone shouted out and said that he seen a mine until the point in time
24 when the mine exploded, and I believe your answer was that it was a
25 second or two.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please tell me how far you were from the place where
3 the first mine was activated?
4 A. About 10 to 15 metres away.
5 Q. And here you say that Ivan Kraljevic accidentally activated the
6 first mine.
7 A. Yes. That is what first occurred to me. At that point in time,
8 that's what I thought, and I still believe that that was the case.
9 Q. I have another question about the subsequent clearing of the
10 minefield. I believe that you said that you received instructions,
11 according to which, once you a noticed a wire, you -- to inform them of
12 the fact and everyone were to lie down on the ground -- everyone had to
13 lie down on the ground until the person who had spotted a mine managed to
14 deactivate it.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that warning was issued by a soldier.
17 A. Yes. One of those who were up there on the road.
18 Q. Once the mines were disarmed, you went up to the road. I believe
19 that that was done according to the instructions. Once you disarmed the
20 mines, you were supposed to bring them up to the roads, to the soldiers.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you see that the clover at some places in the field, did you
23 see that from the position on the road? Did you see that the clover was
24 trampled on?
25 A. Yes, you could see four tracks where the lines had been laid.
1 The road was about 3 or 4 metres above the field, and you could see
2 clearly that somebody had walked through the field and left their traces
3 in the form of four lines.
4 Q. When you were walking through the clover field and you said that
5 the clovers were about 30 centimetres high, did you not see the same
6 thing, that the clovers were trampled on at places?
7 A. Only when we arrived and when the first mine went off, we saw the
8 passages through the clover field, we saw the thin wires. It was only
9 then that it dawned on us that the field had been mined.
10 Q. And then you drew a logical conclusion that there were other
11 places where the clovers were trampled on, where mines had been laid.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And let me put just one more question to you. It concerns the
14 part of your statement in which you stated that you were walking in the
15 direction of the minefield, escorted by soldiers, and that you acted as
16 human shields for those soldiers.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that continued until you reached the clover field.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And, later on, when you reached the clover field, what happened
21 to the soldiers? Were they still with you? Did they go elsewhere?
22 A. They remained standing on the road. We were spread. We turned
23 right. They remained on the road. They made us face the forest. One
24 group came after us, some ten or 15 of them, and the others remained
25 standing on the road.
1 Q. When you say that they made you face the forest, are you talking
2 about the forest called Jelas?
3 A. They -- we did not face the forest because the forest was about
4 1 to 1 and a half kilometres away from the minefield, but they were
5 facing that direction, the direction of the forest.
6 Q. But was it Jelas forest?
7 A. Jelas forest is about a kilometre and a half from the minefield
8 so we could not see the forest because it was in a depression. We
9 couldn't see it. We just faced that direction, the direction of the
10 administrative building of the agricultural co-operative.
11 Q. I just wanted to make sure that we're talking about that forest
12 or some other forest.
13 A. No. Jelas forest is about a kilometre and a half away from that
15 Q. Just one -- one more time. Let's clarify this.
16 Although the forest was about a kilometre or a kilometre and a
17 half away from the minefield, it was still Jelas forest; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And just one more thing, and I believe that it is going to be my
20 last question.
21 Those soldiers that remained behind you once you reached the
22 clover field and when they made you face the clover field with Jelas
23 forest in the distance, where were those soldiers? Not the ones on the
24 road but the others.
25 A. They were behind our backs, some ten to 15 metres behind us.
1 Q. In practical terms, you were no longer acting as their human
2 shield; right?
3 A. We were in front of them.
4 Q. At a distance of some ten to 15 metres?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. I have nothing further.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
8 questions for this witness. Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 Anything in re-direct, Ms. Biersay?
11 MS. BIERSAY: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, this time it's for real, this is the
13 end of your testimony. You're now released as a witness and we wish you,
14 once again, a safe journey back home. Thank you very much.
15 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Nothing else on the agenda?
18 MS. BIERSAY: Not on behalf of the Prosecution.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Not on behalf of the Defence. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of
24 November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.