Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2037

 1                           Tuesday, 4 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.45 a.m.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 5     courtroom.

 6             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

11     starting with the Prosecution.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13     Douglas Stringer with Matthew Olmsted, Francois Braun, and Case Manager

14     Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

18     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             The witness may be brought in.  Thank you.

22             I think the best thing to do is to keep the breaks at the same

23     time as usual so that we don't have to think and just go on routine.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Rendulic.  Please be seated.


Page 2038

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you, too.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Rendulic, I remind you that you're still on

 4     your oath.

 5             Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           WITNESS:  ADAM RENDULIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rendulic, yesterday I asked you about the

11     military organisation of the HDZ in the territory of Vukovar municipality

12     and the village of Lovas.  This would have started in April 1991.

13             I'm now going to read some of the information that we have at our

14     disposal.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is tab 1 from the Defence list.  It's document

16     2803.  It should not be broadcasted or shown to the witness.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] You're not going to see the document on your

18     screen due to our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  I can't give you the

19     source of the information.  However, I'm going to read to you something

20     from page 1, both in English and in Serbian.  I'm not going to read who

21     the participants in the meeting were.  I told you when the meeting was

22     held and where in the village of Bogdanovci.  And this is what we heard:

23              "The meeting was chaired by Tomislav Mercep.  He told us at the

24     beginning that he had received instructions from the HDZ in Osijek that

25     we should start organising ourselves as a military organisation within

Page 2039

 1     the framework of the HDZ.  In that the technical service should be set up

 2     and at the beginning that service will arm the most trusted members of

 3     the HDZ which will be the first recruits of the Croatian army that needs

 4     to be established in a later stage.

 5             "Tomislav Mercep appointed Josip Gazo head of this service.  The

 6     military service which was also formed at the meeting was to train the

 7     armed HDZ members in handling weapons, as well as draft a war strategy

 8     for the territory of Vukovar municipality in case the creation of an

 9     independent Croatian state did not proceed peacefully.  Stjepan Rados was

10     appointed head of the service.

11             "Vlado Rimac was appointed head of the medical service.  The task

12     of this service was to collect medical supplies and store them at certain

13     locations in the town of Vukovar, as well as to prepare mini-hospitals or

14     medical centres.  All this had to be done illegally and in secret places

15     because, at that time, it was illegal for the HDZ to carry out such

16     activities placement.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, at this stage the Prosecution would

19     like to object to the form of this question which is going on quite some

20     time.  The Defence counsel is reading something into the record,

21     something into the record that is not before this Trial Chamber, that

22     obviously this witness has never seen or heard before.  How is the

23     witness after hearing this lengthy recitation from something going to

24     answer a question?

25             I think Defence counsel simply needs to put a proposition to this

Page 2040

 1     witness in a simplified form, in a way that the witness can answer the

 2     question.  It should not be a compound, lengthy, diatribe on an issue,

 3     which is what we have now before us.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, may I ask -- may I add to that,

 5     without taking a position yet, that the questions you seem to want to ask

 6     the witness have already been asked and answered by the witness.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, in part, Your Honour.  I would just like to

 8     put the witness information in its entirety, or in this part of -- about

 9     the organisation of this military -- military organisation in Lovas.  I

10     would read him also this part of information and put him some questions

11     related to this particular piece of information.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But what is -- what is the -- what is the use of

13     giving the witness information we seem to know that he doesn't know

14     about?  Because that's already what he answered.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's correct.  He said that he doesn't know

16     anything about the military organisation of HDZ.  However --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or medical or technical.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Right?  The three components.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I wanted to put him some -- some particular

21     information from this document related to Lovas and to ask him if he

22     knows this piece of information.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             If the witness may just remove his headphones, I want to discuss

Page 2041

 1     this particular document, and I don't believe the witness needs to hear

 2     what I have to say.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, do you understand English?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I then ask you to remove your headphones,

 6     please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has additional

 9     concerns with regard to this particular document.  We understand it to be

10     a confession that was taken of a witness while he was under duress in

11     detention back in 1991.  The document was supplied by Defence counsel in

12     another case before this Tribunal, and so that raises another concern

13     about reading extensive portions of it into the record because it opens a

14     door to a litigation of the validity of this particular document.

15             And that is another reason we do not believe it should be read

16     simply into the record.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This document is provided from the Prosecution.

19     And, as far as I know, it is on the Prosecution Rule 65 ter list.  We do

20     not have any indication that the document was provided by force or any

21     unpermitted means.

22             And the source of this document, I wouldn't mention it before the

23     witness.  The source of this document is also on the Prosecution list.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, every document that's on our 65 ter

25     list is there for various reasons, not because we vouch for its

Page 2042

 1     reliability or anything else on it.  This particular document was

 2     disclosed under our obligations under Rule 66(A), and it was put on our

 3     65 ter list just as a convenience for the Trial Chamber and for the

 4     Defence.  I think the Defence counsel knows very well where this document

 5     comes from, and I won't say anything further on that.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would just add that we have no indication from

 7     the Prosecution to this moment that this document was provided by force

 8     or -- and -- and that's it.  Okay.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, you -- you may put questions,

11     specific questions to the witness and give him the information you need

12     to give him in order for -- for him to answer the questions, but you

13     should not read in those lengthy documents into the record this way.

14             Mr. Witness, you can put your headphones on.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Yesterday I read out a number of names and I will repeat them

18     today.  You were familiar with all those names but one.  According to our

19     information, they implemented the decision on the military organisation

20     of the HDZ in Lovas.

21             Let me give you the names:  Mijo Koljic, Franjo Krizmanic,

22     Jozo Milas, Josip Grcanac, Branko Krizmanic, Marin Vidic, Josip Badanjak,

23     Josip Filic, Ivo Madzarevic, Braco Keser.

24             Yesterday you told us, when I asked you about Duka Filic, that

25     that person did not exist in Lovas, or at least you didn't know about

Page 2043

 1     that person?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   However, yesterday, on page 1956, you spoke about somebody called

 4     Djuka Pilic or at least that's what we have on the transcript.

 5        A.   There is no Djuka -- there is no Duka Filic, there is

 6     Djuka Filic, yes.

 7        Q.   Djuka Filic exists?

 8        A.   Yes, Djuka Filic does exist in Lovas.

 9        Q.   What's his name?

10        A.   Djuka.

11        Q.   That's his real name?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Among the names I read out yesterday there was also

14     Tomislav Rendulic.  Are you two related?

15        A.   No, we're not related.  We bear the same family name, but we're

16     not related.

17        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned on page 1961 that, at one point in time,

18     some anti-tank mines were delivered from Ilok to Lovas and they were then

19     returned.

20             I would like to ask you who was it who sent them to you?

21        A.   They arrived from Ilok.  I don't know who sent them.  In any

22     case, somebody brought them over from Ilok to Lovas.

23        Q.   Who was it who brought them over?

24        A.   I don't know who brought them over.  They arrived in the course

25     of a night.  I don't know who brought them.  I already told you what

Page 2044

 1     transpired sometime in the month of July.  They were just there.

 2        Q.   How were they transported?

 3        A.   By vehicles.  By vehicles.  You could not carry them on foot,

 4     could you?  And that's how they were returned as well.

 5        Q.   What vehicles?  Whose vehicles?

 6        A.   I don't know whose vehicles those were.  They arrived in the

 7     course of a night.

 8        Q.   Were you present when they were returned?

 9        A.   Yes, I was present when they were returned.  I believe that the

10     police came on the 29th of September and that's how they were returned.

11        Q.   Who received them in Lovas?

12        A.   I don't know who was on duty in the Crisis Staff on that day.

13     Whoever it was received those mines.

14        Q.   Do you know where they were stored?

15        A.   In the local commune office.

16        Q.   Who guarded them?

17        A.   Nobody special.  They were under lock, but it -- they were not

18     specially guarded.

19        Q.   How come that the mines were returned to Ilok?

20        A.   First of all, they were not needed in Lovas.  That's why they

21     were under lock.  And then when -- after the agreement was reached with

22     the army to hand over all the weapons, the mines were part of that

23     agreement.

24        Q.   But when you say the agreement with the army, I thought that the

25     army wanted you to hand over your weapons to the army and those mines

Page 2045

 1     were not handed over to the army.

 2        A.   I told you that on the 28th we handed over some of the weapons,

 3     but the army never came to collect those weapons.

 4        Q.   On the 28th, you turned over the weapons you had?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   But you kept the mines.

 7        A.   And the weapons.  Everything remained there.  The army didn't

 8     take anything.

 9        Q.   But you didn't even offer them to hand over the mines.

10        A.   It was understood that we had to turn over everything we had.

11        Q.   From your evidence, I understood - and that's also the

12     information I got independently - that two or three Kalashnikovs

13     remained, some hunting weapons.

14        A.   There were pistols as well.

15        Q.   But nobody mentioned that there were mines, anti-tank mines.

16        A.   It was understood.  If you're handing over one kind of weapons,

17     you're handing over all of them.  That's also included in the weapons.

18        Q.   Perhaps you did not understand my question.  What I'm putting to

19     you - and you may answer as you see fit - what I'm saying is that,

20     according to the information we have, and according to your evidence so

21     far, the army was never told you had mines in Lovas.

22        A.   I don't know.  Maybe somebody told them.  In any case, they did

23     not seek those weapons or anything else.

24        Q.   It's also my understanding that they did not come to pick up the

25     weapons they had been shown, those couple of Kalashnikovs and hunting

Page 2046

 1     rifles.  However, nobody ever told them that there were anti-tank mines

 2     as well.  Maybe they would have taken a different stance if they had

 3     known about the mines.

 4        A.   They knew about everything.  Whether they wanted to take it over

 5     or not, I don't know.  They knew everything that was going on in Lovas.

 6     I am absolutely sure they had all the information.  As I told you

 7     yesterday, they knew when the lights were on in a particular house.

 8             There's no chance they didn't know about that.  The army had very

 9     good information about what was going on in Lovas and everywhere else.

10        Q.   Are you trying to say they had information about those mines as

11     well?

12        A.   I believe so.

13        Q.   Since you went to talk to the representatives of the army, when

14     you said that Lovas has no weapons worth mentioning, nothing but those

15     hunting rifles, a Kalashnikov here and there, or a pistol, were they able

16     to understand from your words that you were deceiving them because you

17     had anti-tank mines?

18        A.   I don't know what they understood, but they were saying there was

19     too much of everything, which, in fact, was not true.  There were just a

20     few rifles.

21        Q.   Do you think that their awareness of the anti-tank mines may have

22     been a factor in their decision to attack Lovas?

23        A.   They attacked Lovas just as any other village.  They had that

24     objective and the same scenario for every village.  Sotin had nothing and

25     was attacked.  Another village also had nothing and was attacked.

Page 2047

 1     Tovarnik also was attacked without having any weapons.  That scenario

 2     worked everywhere.

 3        Q.   Where do you get your information about the supply of arms in

 4     Sotin, Tovarnik, Ilaca, and other places?

 5        A.   I told you I went to Sotin often because my late brother, cousin,

 6     lived there.  In Tovarnik and in other places, I also knew what was going

 7     on because I had my affairs through the co-operatives.  And people talked

 8     what was going on.  Especially when Vukovar was shelled, we knew that the

 9     war had begun.  People were discussing things.  They were discussing

10     what's best to do, et cetera.  I knew all that.

11        Q.   How could you know that Sotin did not have anti-tank mines as

12     well, for instance, or Tovarnik, or Ilaca, all the other places you

13     mentioned?

14        A.   I can know that only from talking to people.  I don't know for a

15     fact.  I claim they did not have any of these things because it was

16     impossible for people even in bigger places in Croatia, especially in the

17     small ones like that, to get that kind of weapon.

18        Q.   I'm not talking about big weapons now.  I'm talking about

19     anti-tank mines specifically.  They are meant to destroy tanks, APCs,

20     et cetera.

21             Is it your evidence that the surrounding places that you

22     mentioned - Sotin, Tovarnik, Ilaca - did not have them?

23        A.   They did not.  Because tanks passed through Sotin, passed through

24     Ilaca.  None was ever damaged.  Tanks passed by Lovas as well.  Nothing

25     ever happened.  Not a single mine was used so that cannot be a pretext

Page 2048

 1     for attacking these villages, especially Lovas.  It cannot be a pretext,

 2     an excuse for killing 68 people, civilians.  And since some died of their

 3     wounds later, the total number of casualties was eventually 72.

 4        Q.   I did not ask you whether the mines were ever used.  I asked you

 5     whether they existed.  I understood you as saying that those other places

 6     did not have the mines.

 7        A.   I infer you are trying to say that the army used it as a reason

 8     for attacking these villages.

 9        Q.   I put it as a question to you, and you are answering it the way

10     you are answering it.  I want to know how to understand your answer.  Are

11     you saying that the kind of mines that were available in Lovas were not

12     available in other villages, or you don't know?

13        A.   I suppose they did not have them.

14        Q.   I want to know, then, why those mines were given to Lovas, if

15     they were not given to other places.  Why Lovas, in particular?

16        A.   I don't know.  Probably because, at that time, Lovas belonged to

17     the Ilok area.  Other villages are farther from Lovas.  In terms of

18     police work, Lovas was connected with Ilok.

19        Q.   You remember you gave a statement to OTP investigators.  We could

20     even look at it.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's 2217.  Tab 9.  It's from

22     8 November 1995.

23        Q.   You recall that statement?

24        A.   I gave more than one.  Now I see that it was on the

25     8th of November, 1995.

Page 2049

 1             I don't know what it was about.  It was about Ljuban Devetak and

 2     this other man, Arandjelovic.  But I think it was before the Zagreb

 3     District Court and this was given to investigators.  Yes, now I remember.

 4        Q.   Let me ask you first:  Did you give a statement to OTP

 5     investigators only once?

 6        A.   I think it was only once, but it may have been more than once.

 7     It was a long time.  But it was in 1995 when we came to Zagreb as

 8     refugees.  It may have been more than once.

 9        Q.   Could we look at page 2 in your statement where you say that in

10     Lovas a Crisis Staff was set up.  You testified about that yesterday

11     here.

12             Could you first tell me, this Crisis Staff in Lovas, who was it

13     subordinated to?  Did it receive instructions from anyone?  To whom did

14     it report?

15        A.   I don't think it reported to anyone.  The Crisis Staff decided on

16     its own direction and what they would do at a particular moment in time.

17        Q.   Do you know whether there was a Crisis Staff in Vukovar?

18        A.   I believe there was a Crisis Staff everywhere.

19        Q.   Do you know who was on the Crisis Staff and who was at the head

20     of the Crisis Staff in Vukovar?

21        A.   In Vukovar?  I don't know.  Apart from Mercep in Zadar, I don't

22     know anything -- apart from Mercep and Blago Zadro, I don't know anyone.

23        Q.   Was there a connection between the Crisis Staff in Lovas and the

24     Crisis Staff in Vukovar?

25        A.   I suppose so because it was the same territory.  It was the

Page 2050

 1     former municipality of Vukovar.  At that time, we were still part of the

 2     municipality of Vukovar.

 3        Q.   When you say "probably," does it mean you're not sure?  You are

 4     just assuming or you know it for a fact?

 5        A.   I know there was some talk about the situation in Vukovar and the

 6     topical issues, the problems that were arising.  I can say, for instance,

 7     we got information from that Crisis Staff in Vukovar that a meeting was

 8     held in Pacetin of the Serbian members of the League of Communists, and

 9     one person from Lovas attended that meeting in Pacetin.

10        Q.   You testified yesterday on page 1962 that you joined the

11     Crisis Staff in June or May 1991.

12        A.   I believe it was the end of June 1991.

13        Q.   And you joined the Crisis Staff at the invitation of the

14     secretary of your co-operative, as you said.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What's that man's name?

17        A.   Jozo Milas.

18        Q.   He was president or chairman of that Crisis Staff.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   He was also president of the Executive Board of the HDZ in Lovas.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell me now who actually set up that Crisis Staff in

23     Lovas?

24        A.   The local commune and the HDZ.  Because the HDZ had just won the

25     elections, and it charted the policies in the village, and, of course, it

Page 2051

 1     set up the Crisis Staff, not as a political party but as the leader of

 2     the local commune, because the leaders of the local commune were members

 3     of the HDZ.

 4        Q.   About the local commune, I don't know if we were clear yesterday.

 5     We have information that the president of the local commune was

 6     Zeljko Cirba.

 7        A.   Yes, we confirmed that.

 8        Q.   I told you yesterday that we have information that the leadership

 9     of the HDZ - namely, its Executive Board - implemented the decision on

10     military organising in Lovas and set up the military medical service.

11     You did not tell us that, but we have information about it.

12             It's on page 2 of the document that was not broadcast or shown to

13     the witness.  In English it is on page 2, straddling page 3.

14             It enumerates the people from Lovas who attended the meeting

15     where the decision on military organising was made.  You see, when you

16     compare the names of those people, on one hand, and I read you some of

17     those names yesterday, when you compare them to the names of the members

18     of the Crisis Staff you listed in your statement, I see that it's the

19     same group of people, apart from you.  You were not present at that first

20     meeting when the decision was made on military organising by members of

21     the HDZ.

22        A.   Are you talking about Bogdanovci?  I wasn't there.

23        Q.   Yes.  And I did not have occasion to read to that you passage.

24     After Bogdanovci, after that meeting, that decision was implemented in

25     Lovas, and also the technical, military, and medical services were

Page 2052

 1     established, and there was a meeting held about that in Lovas where

 2     members of the Executive Board of the HDZ adopted that decision.  I've

 3     already read out the names to you.  There's no need to repeat them.

 4             But when I compare that list of names and the list of names of

 5     the members of the Crisis Staff you mentioned in your statement, it's

 6     practically the same group of people.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you talking about the meeting

 9     in Lovas?

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, just one moment.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  The Prosecution objects to this line of questions.

12     It's, again, been asked and answered.  And what counsel is now suggesting

13     is really an argument.  It is not putting a question to this witness.

14     And I repeat our concern that they are presenting information as if it is

15     it in the record or is part of this evidence in this case.  These are

16     allegations and he simply should put a question to the witness.  Did this

17     in fact occur, are you aware that this occurred?  Not saying this

18     happened and this happened and then ask for the witness to comment on it.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I just like to put to the witness that the same

20     people who are in Crisis Staff he talked about, he spoke about in his

21     statement, are the people who are in this document shown to the Chamber

22     and known to the Prosecution and from -- the document from the

23     Prosecution exhibit list.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.  And what is your question

25     about that?  Was your question about those people, the members of the HDZ

Page 2053

 1     Executive Board being the same as the members of the Crisis Staff?

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, that's correct.  And it is -- it is in --

 3     I -- I wanted to put the witness such coincidence between these members

 4     from the HDZ Executive Board and the Crisis Committee where he was

 5     included.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But there is no question.  What is the question?

 7     Or -- or ... what is the question you wanted to ask the witness about

 8     this?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  My question was about -- my previous

10     question was about constitution, how the Crisis Committee was

11     constituted, how it was established.  And if I have to air my further

12     line of questions, I do it, but not before this witness.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So ...

14             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think we are done with this.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Okay.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, before I ask you to proceed, Mr. Zivanovic,

19     may I remind you, as well as the witness, to pause after the questions

20     you ask, Mr. Zivanovic, and the answer you give, Mr. Rendulic, in order

21     to allow the interpreters to follow the course of action.  Thank you.

22             Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] From the information that we have, and our claim

25     that the Crisis Staff that you testify about exist -- pre-existed your

Page 2054

 1     membership and that it was first established during the meeting of the

 2     HDZ board in Lovas which happened towards the end of April 1991.

 3             Do you have anything to add to that?

 4        A.   You said that a technical service was set up, as well as a

 5     medical service.  There was no military organisation.  They were just

 6     guards around the village.  The medical service was headed by

 7     Slobodan Kacar, who was a Serb.  He was also the head of the outpatient

 8     clinic and he also had a nurse, and they were the only medical service

 9     that we had.  And that Slobodan Kacar was our doctor in Lovas, and he was

10     a Serb.

11        Q.   The setting up of the Crisis Staff, could that have provoked the

12     Serbs in Lovas?

13        A.   I don't think so.  We said yesterday that we had set up the staff

14     to co-ordinate activities, to be the catalyst of activities in Lovas.  It

15     was supposed to inform both the Serbs and the Croats what was going on.

16     That's why we organised that meeting with the Serbs in Mirko Lovric's

17     house.

18             As I already told you yesterday, at that meeting we were told

19     that we shouldn't be afraid, that we should protect each other, and that

20     we should endeavour to maintain normalcy in our lives.

21        Q.   How many Serbs were there in the Crisis Staff?

22        A.   I don't know whether Djuro Prodanovic was a member of the

23     Crisis Staff.  However, Djuro Prodanovic and Milan Tepavac were always

24     with us.  They were involved in all our contacts, in all negotiations.

25     The Crisis Staff activities were very transparent.  The meetings that

Page 2055

 1     were held at the local commune were attended by a lot of people who were

 2     not members of the Crisis Staff, especially towards the end of that

 3     period when the situation got more compounded.

 4        Q.   In your statement you didn't mention a single Serb as a member of

 5     the Crisis Staff.

 6        A.   As I say, I don't know whether Djuro Prodanovic was a member of

 7     the Crisis Staff or not.  I don't know.  Milan Tepavac as well.  I don't

 8     know whether they were just invited guests or members of the

 9     Crisis Staff, but they were always with us.

10        Q.   You never mentioned that before.

11        A.   I don't know.  Nobody probably asked me about that.

12        Q.   Well, I would like to invite you to look at your statement.  You

13     mentioned all the people who were members of the Crisis Staff.

14        A.   I gave you the names of the Croats who were members of the

15     Crisis Staff.  Nobody ever asked me about the Serbs.  There's another

16     statement of mine, talking about the meeting that was held on the 28th or

17     the 29th which was attended by the Serbs, including Milan Tepavac and

18     Djuro Prodanovic.  That was a meeting that took place after our meeting

19     with the army.  We wanted to discuss what to do after that meeting with

20     the army.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, just one moment, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Looking at your last answer, I can see that

Page 2056

 1     nobody asked you about the Serbs.  Are you saying that when you spoke to

 2     the investigators of this Tribunal they asked you only about the Croats

 3     who were members of the Crisis Staff?

 4        A.   I told you which Serbs went with us to the negotiations that took

 5     place in July.  There were two Serbs there, and there was one Serb who

 6     accompanied us to Sid, and those two meetings took place in July and

 7     August.  And I told you that all -- the Serbs were also with us.

 8        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, I never asked you that.  I did not ask you who went

 9     with you to the negotiations with the JNA.  I asked you who the Serb

10     members of the HDZ Crisis Staff were.  And the distinction is very clear.

11     On the one hand, there are negotiators; on the other, there are members

12     of the HDZ Crisis Staff.  That was my question.  You answered the way you

13     could.

14        A.   Well, I can also tell you that the Serbs wilfully distanced

15     themselves from the assembly of my company.  All of a sudden, they

16     stopped taking part in the work of our organisation.  When I asked them

17     how come they didn't come to the meeting, they had all sorts of excuses.

18     They were sick or something else.

19             The only people who wanted to be engaged both in the Crisis Staff

20     and in the company were Djuro Prodanovic, Milan Tepavac, and

21     Milan Miljkovic.  Those were the three Serbs who were actively involved.

22     All the rest just distanced themselves for no reason at all, for reasons

23     known only to them.

24        Q.   Could the reason have been their information about a military

25     organisation in Lovas?

Page 2057

 1        A.   There was no such thing.  What argument do have you to support

 2     that claim?  We only had civilian village guards.  That was all.

 3        Q.   You know, we have that information, and I put it partly to you.

 4     We're familiar with that.  But I know that the Serbs in Lovas knew a lot

 5     more than we do.  Therefore, I believe that that -- all that information

 6     may have been very disturbing, which is why they distanced themselves and

 7     withdrew from all those bodies and activities that you have just

 8     mentioned.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, are you giving testimony now?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Of course not.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What -- what is your question to the witness,

12     then?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  My question was -- my question was already put to

14     the witness, about the -- that the Serbs were disturbed with the events

15     in Lovas, as regards the military organisation of the HDZ.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the answer was given; right?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You also mentioned those guards around the village of Lovas.  You

21     said that they had hunting rifles.  There were only two men with two

22     hunting rifles.  Is that what you said?  I can tell from your facial

23     expression that was not the case but could you please answer my question.

24        A.   I said that there were several people with hunting rifles for

25     which they had licences.

Page 2058

 1        Q.   We're talking about those guards that were set up at check-points

 2     around Lovas.

 3        A.   Yes, at check-points.

 4        Q.   Were those check-points manned by two guards each?

 5        A.   Sometimes there were two; sometimes there were five.  But those

 6     three just came to keep the other two company, to socialise with them on

 7     those check-points, as it were.

 8        Q.   And they would spend the whole night there.

 9        A.   Those whose turn it was to keep guard, they would come after

10     dinner.  They -- or they would bring food and drink, and they would kill

11     time.  And then when they got bored, those who didn't have to be there

12     just went, and those who had to stay, stayed for the whole night.

13        Q.   They had arms; right?

14        A.   Yes.  They had hunting rifles or -- some of them had carbines as

15     well.  For example, as a hunter, I myself had a hunting rifle and a

16     carbine.

17        Q.   You told us that those guards were set up after the incident in

18     Borovo Selo.  Could you please be more specific?  How did that incident

19     in Borovo Selo influence the setting up of the guards in Lovas?  I know

20     that there is a major difference between Borovo Selo and Lovas.  In

21     Borovo Selo, the majority population was Serb; and in Croatian [as

22     interpreted] it was Croat; do you agree?

23        A.   Yes.  But that was a municipality, and for something like that to

24     happen in one municipality, and for the -- for 13 police officers to be

25     killed just like that, randomly, you can imagine how that incident

Page 2059

 1     reflected on the entire municipality of Vukovar.  This rose a lot of

 2     concern among the population when they learned that legally appointed

 3     officers were killed in one village of their municipality, and I'm

 4     talking about the village of Borovo Selo.

 5        Q.   You are probably familiar with all the details.  Two buses full

 6     of Croatian police officers came from Vinkovci to Borovo Selo and this

 7     resulted in an armed conflict with 13 casualties.

 8             Do you know that?

 9        A.   Well, I believe that there was just one bus, not two buses.

10     However, I have to tell you this, and I have to tell the Trial Chamber

11     something that is not part -- is not part of my statement.  Already in

12     the month of January 1991, I saw Chetniks in Borovo Selo with a friend of

13     mine who was a Serb, Vaskrsije Vuksanovic.  He asked me, in Vukovar, to

14     take him to his brother in Borovo Selo because his brother had cancer.  I

15     took him, I drove him to Borovo Selo, to a street close to the sawmill.

16     I left him there.  He visited his brother.  He returned from the house

17     very quickly.  I was in the car.  And as we were leaving Borovo Selo,

18     there is a pub on the left-hand side.  Some people may be familiar with

19     that, with that pub.  I believe the name is Kod Cadje.  I went to that

20     pub together with Vaskrsije.  He wanted to stand me a drink.  We entered

21     the pub and I was astonished when I saw a person with a cockade on his

22     head, and between his legs he had an M-48 rifle and he was staring at us.

23     I asked my friend, Vaskrsije, the Serb, he was my colleague, he was an

24     agronomist, he was the head of the -- of a company in Tovarnik, and I

25     asked him, What is this?  And he told me, Let's have a drink and leave

Page 2060

 1     and then I'll tell you what this is all about.

 2             After we had that drink, we left the pub.  We got into the car,

 3     and on the way to Vukovar he told me, Here, in Borovo Selo, there are

 4     about 20, if not more, of paramilitaries who had arrived.  I asked him,

 5     When did they arrive?  And he said, I believe that they arrived before

 6     new year.  And I asked him, What are they doing here?  And he said, I

 7     don't know.  They arrived a day -- they imposed an obligation upon the

 8     villagers.  They live at the football pitch, that is where they're

 9     stationed, and they imposed an obligation upon the villagers to feed

10     them.  Every day a couple of families have to bring them food and drinks,

11     and I can tell you that the population is already a bit fed up with that.

12     They're not very happy about the whole situation.

13             And this is what he told me about that paramilitary formation

14     that had arrived before the new year, 1991.  Everybody knew about that.

15             And now you're asking me how come we set up guards and why people

16     in our village -- why their mind was not at rest.  We had to control who

17     was entering, both Serbs and Croats.  It was simply -- as simple as that.

18        Q.   Did that friend tell you why those people were not arrested?

19        A.   Well, when the police came, they were killed.

20        Q.   This event you are talking about happened in January.

21        A.   January or February.

22        Q.   And the other thing happened in May.  I'm interested why were

23     those people not arrested in the meantime.  Did that friend tell you?

24        A.   He did not tell me.  The question is:  Who knew about it?  I

25     don't know why they were not arrested, but they were there.  I saw one of

Page 2061

 1     them.

 2        Q.   You say "when the police came."  Are you trying to say the police

 3     came to arrest them?

 4        A.   The police came to free the Croat policemen who were held captive

 5     in Borovo Selo.  They came with the intention of releasing them, because

 6     the paramilitaries in Borovo Selo must have taken them prisoner.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, but according to my information, those two Croat

 8     policemen who came first to Borovo Selo the day before were released,

 9     unhurt.

10        A.   No, they were held prisoner, and they were later released.

11        Q.   And were they released?

12        A.   I don't know what happened.  But 13 policemen were killed there.

13     I don't know when they got out.

14        Q.   At any rate, the risk that existed in Borovo Selo did not exist

15     in Lovas.  There was no danger of a busload of Croat policemen coming

16     only to be attacked by the locals.

17        A.   Yes.  But a busload of paramilitaries could have come from Sid

18     because we were on the border with Serbia.

19             There's only a road between us, a 5-metre-wide road.  We could

20     also fear that paramilitaries would come to Lovas, and it was quite

21     justified to set up guards to at least check entries and exits.  It was

22     in our mutual interest.

23        Q.   Tell me, what would those two guards with hunting rifles do if a

24     busload of paramilitaries, indeed, came from Sid?

25        A.   They would be able to give us a sign that something was going to

Page 2062

 1     happen.  Of course, nobody could do anything for real, just as we were

 2     unable to do anything when they organised the massacre later.

 3        Q.   But this is what I understood yesterday from you:  The whole

 4     point of these check-points around Lovas manned by those guards was just

 5     to observe who was coming and going.

 6        A.   Yes, it was a stability measure, not a defence measure.

 7        Q.   I suppose that the locals in Lovas were aware that those two men

 8     with hunting rifles could not stop anyone from coming in.

 9        A.   That was not even the intention, to start any fight.  That's why

10     we had no military units, no military groups.

11        Q.   You said yesterday that Serbs were, in fact, happy these

12     check-points existed.

13        A.   Those whom I talked to were.

14        Q.   What did those check-points give them?  We now see that those

15     check-points did not provide any effective protection.  Not even from a

16     couple of armed people, let alone a bigger military power.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Gentlemen, please remind, you should pause

18     because the interpreters can't follow.  The court reporter can't follow.

19     Thank you.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you tell us what were they happy about?

22        A.   It was psychological for both ethnic groups.  Anyone could come

23     to the village, robbers, looters.  Anyone.  Especially after the

24     Borovo Selo incident when all sorts of groups started roaming around.

25        Q.   Do you know that after the incident in Borovo Selo, a wave of

Page 2063

 1     violence against Serbs in Vukovar and the surrounding areas started?

 2        A.   I'm not aware about Vukovar.  I'm talking about Lovas and the

 3     villages in the Ilok area that I visited.  There were no problems between

 4     Serbs and Croats.

 5        Q.   We also have information from the same source - that's page 9 of

 6     the Serbian version; page 6, paragraph 2 of the English version - that at

 7     this meeting of representatives of the Municipal Board of HDZ Vukovar

 8     with presidents of the local branches of the HDZ and representatives of

 9     technical services, the proposal was unanimously accepted on the

10     reorganising of the technical services into ...

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the last bit.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Into a service of internal security in local communes.

14             According to this information, these services were tasked with

15     monitoring and taking care of the Serbs who were deemed to be a threat to

16     the HDZ.

17             Do you know that something like that was organised, this internal

18     security service in Lovas?

19        A.   I know nothing about the meeting you refer to.  I told you I was

20     not a member of the HDZ.  I know nothing at all about that meeting.  And

21     I first hear of that word, "internal security," in terms of small places

22     like Lovas.  I know that there was talk about internal security services

23     at the level of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   According to our information, one group of HDZ members suggested

25     that the houses of Serbs should be searched.  Vorkapic's, Lovric's,

Page 2064

 1     Krnjic, Kacar, Tepavac houses.

 2        A.   I don't know that it was proposed, but I know that it was not

 3     done, especially the Kacar house because Dr. Kacar was the head of our

 4     medical services.

 5        Q.   And according to this report, another group suggested that Serbs

 6     should be talked to, and I think that a meeting was organised at Mirko --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the name.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Was a mixed commission formed at that meeting?

11        A.   I attended the meeting.  I know everything that was agreed there.

12     There were agreements about co-existence, normal functioning, normal life

13     in the village, without creating any problems, one for another, but I

14     don't know about the setting up of any commission.

15        Q.   We also have information - not regarding this meeting at

16     Mirko Lovric's house but the previous meeting I mentioned about setting

17     up an internal security service - that it was decided that certain Serb

18     houses be put under surveillance, and this surveillance to be done by

19     their neighbours, their Croat neighbours.  So, as a result, Franjo Mujic,

20     Jakob Balic, Josip Balic supposed to keep the Vorkapic house under

21     surveillance.

22        A.   I don't know about that.  Perhaps that happened.  Because stories

23     were making the rounds that the JNA was coming and placing weapons in

24     Serb houses.  Whether there was any truth in that, I don't know.  But the

25     story was that a JNA truck deposited some weapons at Rado Sedlar's house.

Page 2065

 1     I don't know whether it's true but I know that the story was circulating.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I noticed that the witness

 3     supposed that your question was:  Do you know about this?  But you didn't

 4     even ask.

 5             Could I ask you to put precise questions to the witness, please.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My question was:  Do you know anything about that surveillance by

 8     Croat neighbours of Serb houses?

 9        A.   I know only what I told you.

10        Q.   Do you know, concerning what you just said, that military

11     vehicles allegedly were bringing weapons to certain houses - let me just

12     see the name of this man - Sedlar.  The Sedlar house, for instance.  Was

13     this discussed at Crisis Staff meetings?

14        A.   No.  People talked.  Not only in Lovas but in other places with a

15     Serb population.  It was said that weapons were being brought.

16        Q.   Did the Crisis Staff make a decision about that?

17        A.   The Crisis Staff never made a decision on that issue because it

18     was something that was just talk, in the air.

19        Q.   Would a truck bringing weapons be able to easily pass the

20     check-points unobserved?

21        A.   It would be observed.  But, as you said yourself, what could

22     two men with hunting rifles do about it?  And we also thought that we

23     should not react to the army.

24        Q.   I understood these people at the check-points were not supposed

25     to react.  They would just note that a truck passed and they would

Page 2066

 1     possibly inform the Crisis Staff.

 2        A.   That's the same thing I said.  Their job was just to inform us

 3     what was going on.  Not only about trucks but also Serbs coming from

 4     Novi Sad to visit their families.  All we knew was that these people were

 5     in the village, and that's it.

 6        Q.   When you say "we knew," you mean the Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   Yes.  The guards reported it to us.

 8        Q.   But I suppose they would also report to you that a military truck

 9     went into the village, if it had.

10        A.   They certainly would.

11        Q.   You see, according to this information we have, a number of those

12     people we discussed before, when talking about what needs to be done,

13     favoured the use of fire-arms and explosives without any warning against

14     anyone who opposes that policy; whereas others allegedly said that those

15     opponents should first be given a warning and that weapons should be used

16     only if they resist or refuse.  Was this discussed by the Crisis Staff --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness -- oh, I'm sorry.  But just pause

18     before answering, please.

19             Mr. Olmsted.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             I just need a clarification.  Defence counsel referred to

22     "opposes that policy."  I have been trying to follow this line of

23     questioning, but I don't know what that policy is.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would be more clear if I read -- read out

Page 2067

 1     two sentences, just two sentences.  It would be very, very clear.

 2             And I would omit -- I would omit the names.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   According to this report, the method was also a matter for lively

 6     debate where some advocated the use of fire-arms and explosives without

 7     warning, while moderates - and I'm going to omit the names - said that

 8     people should be warned first.  And then, if they refuse to surrender and

 9     offer resistance, weapons could be used then.  The method of work for

10     people from internal security was not decided.  It was left to the

11     individual conscience of everyone.

12             My question is:  Did you, at the Crisis Staff, hear about or

13     discuss such decisions?

14        A.   I don't know that things like that were discussed at the

15     Crisis Staff.  I don't know who the weapons should have been used

16     against.  In Lovas, everything was normal.  Even the Serbs, who were less

17     numerous than Croats, why should have anyone have used weapons against

18     them?  There was no reason.  There was no need for any such debates to

19     take place.  At least this is what I know.  Who was it in Lovas that we

20     should have used arms against?

21        Q.   It says here that arms were supposed to be used against some --

22     against some of the Serbs that lived in Lovas, but if you say that

23     nothing -- no such thing was discussed by the Crisis Staff, then fine.

24             According to the information that we have, the -- that some

25     2 kilos of explosives were brought to Lovas.  Do you know anything about

Page 2068

 1     that?

 2        A.   What kind of explosives are you talking about?  What do you mean

 3     when you say "2 kilos of explosives"?  I really don't know.

 4        Q.   This is also -- that explosive was supposed to be used for

 5     crafting explosive devices and intimidating Serbs.

 6             Do you know that in Lovas there were any attacks on the property

 7     of the Serbs and the Serbs themselves?

 8        A.   No.  I can corroborate that by an analysis.  When paramilitaries

 9     entered Lovas, and when they interrogated people in Lovas - and I'm

10     talking about their police - they called a friend of mine who is now

11     deceased.  I'm sure that you will find it in their records.  When they

12     asked him - Ivica, Ivica Sabljak - Can you tell us what the Croats wanted

13     to do to the Serbs in Lovas?  And I answered them, he says, Have any of

14     the window-panes on any of the Serbs' houses broken?  And Ivica says, No.

15     The one who interrogated him was Milan Devcic.  He said, Let him go, let

16     him go home.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I refer to page 2 and -- page 3 -- page 2,

18     paragraph 1, of the English version of the first document, document --

19     which is not shown to the witness or -- and broadcast.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm a little bit confused, Mr. Zivanovic.  Do you

21     intend to tender that document?

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  Just that you could follow -- follow what

23     part of document I refer to.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And one more question, but the witness should

25     perhaps take his head -- headphones off for just one moment.

Page 2069

 1             Please, Mr. Rendulic.  Could you take your headphones off?

 2             You're referring, Mr. Zivanovic, to this document as a report.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Twice you said "this report."

 5             So what is it exactly?

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is -- it is a statement.  And because of that,

 7     I did not ask to be tendered into evidence.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may I just mention that we are also

10     concerned about that word of "report" because it seems to lend some

11     credibility to the document.  And when you present to a witness, We have

12     a report, that says this, the witness has never seen the report, doesn't

13     know who issued the report, they're going to be in a position where they

14     feel like they are somehow having to explain away a report that might be

15     official or might not be.

16             Our position has always been just put the question to him without

17     referring to a report or to a statement or anything else.  You can simply

18     say, Were you aware of 2 kilograms of explosives?  And if he says no,

19     move on.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, in the B/C/S I mentioned "document."  I

21     don't know if it is translated as "report."  It is not report.  It is

22     actually a statement.  And refer to the pages --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So could I --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- so that my friends from the Prosecution and

25     the Trial Chamber could see what I refer to.  It is only purpose why I

Page 2070

 1     refer to some pages of this document which is really very [overlapping

 2     speakers] ...

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I ask you to -- in your next questions, to

 4     refer to -- only refer to information we have.  Would that be okay?

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 7             Mr. Rendulic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, do you know that an explosive device was thrown

12     into the courtyard of the Devcic family?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I refer to the transcript page 1669 through 1670,

14     and 1682 to 1683.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that.  But that

16     Bozo Devcic is not a Serb.  He's a Croat.  It was a Croat house.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   What about Milan Devcic?

19        A.   Milan Devcic was his son.

20        Q.   Do you know if he was perhaps responsible for some crimes

21     committed in Lovas?  I'm talking about the son.

22        A.   Yes.  Milan Devcic was convicted in Belgrade earlier this year.

23        Q.   Do you know whether he was tried as a member of a military or a

24     paramilitary formation set up on the Serbian side or perhaps on the

25     Croatian side?

Page 2071

 1        A.   He was tried as a member of a paramilitary Serb unit.  However,

 2     he was previously a member of the Croatian police.  He left the Croatian

 3     police, and like everybody else, he went in search for a new job.  At the

 4     time when all that was happening, when this whole thing involving the

 5     explosives was happening, nobody knew where Milan Devcic was.

 6        Q.   You mean when that explosive was thrown into his father's house?

 7        A.   Yes.  Nobody knew whether he was still on the Croatian side or

 8     whether he crossed over to another side.

 9        Q.   Do you know that a farm belonging to Dobrivoje Katanski was also

10     blown up?

11        A.   No.  That was not in Lovas.  That was outside of Lovas in Jelas

12     forest.  That Katanski was not a villager of Lovas.  He actually resided

13     in Belgrade full time.

14        Q.   I assume that the fact that he resided in Belgrade was not a

15     reason to blow up his farm.

16        A.   Of course not.  I never said that.

17        Q.   Do you know whether the house belonging to Ljubisa Todorovic was

18     first looted and then set on fire?

19        A.   I don't know that it was looted or set on fire.  I was on good

20     terms with Ljubisa.  Ljubisa had enjoyed a very decent and normal

21     treatment in Lovas.  A year ago, the two of us attended the same wedding.

22     He never complained about anything.  He never told me anything to that

23     effect.  He never told me that his house was looted.  I simply cannot

24     believe that it was, that anybody would have done that, that it would

25     have occurred to anybody to do that.

Page 2072

 1        Q.   You say that it was not looted.  Or are you saying that it was

 2     neither looted nor set on fire?

 3        A.   I can't remember that it was looted.  I'm sure that it was not

 4     looted.  I don't know whether it was set on fire or not.  I -- I can't be

 5     sure of that.

 6        Q.   Do you know anything about the house belonging to

 7     Milorad Novakovic?  Was that house looted and set on fire?

 8        A.   Milorad Novakovic.  Milorad Novakovic was an employee of my

 9     company at that time and he still is.  He lived with his parents.  I'm

10     trying to reconstruct the situation.  That house was never touched.  His

11     brother still lives in that house, and Milorad lives in another house.  I

12     really wouldn't know.  Both his brother and himself still live in Lovas,

13     and they were both employees of my company until his brother got sick.

14        Q.   Do you know anything about Rajko Lovric's house?  Was that house

15     looted and set on fire?

16        A.   I have to laugh.  Rajko Lovric's house is still intact.  His

17     house is still in the centre of the village.  The municipality purchased

18     his house in order to replace it by a new building.  But the house is

19     still there.

20             Now you can see how many erroneous information circulate around.

21     You can come to Lovas.  You will see that house.

22        Q.   Are you saying that that house was never looted or are you saying

23     that it was not set on fire?

24        A.   It was not looted or set on fire.  I've told you.  Come to Lovas.

25     You will see it for yourself.

Page 2073

 1        Q.   In any case, when I am looking at the instance of throwing an

 2     explosive into the courtyard of Milan Devcic's father's house and the

 3     setting on fire of Dobrivoje Katanski's farm, you say about

 4     Ljubisa Todorovic that you are not sure whether his house was set on fire

 5     or not.  Can you tell us, when you spoke to a colonel whose name was

 6     Zelimir Petrovic in the month of September, did you have an impression

 7     that he believed you when you said that the situation in Lovas was calm?

 8        A.   I believe so, yes.

 9        Q.   And do you think that the army was aware of those incidents?

10        A.   I believe so.  They heard a lot of things, so I suppose that they

11     were aware of those things as well.

12        Q.   In any case, on that occasion, you did not mention those

13     incidents that had occurred in Lovas; right?

14        A.   No.  I must tell you that if, indeed, those incidents did happen,

15     the military would have known about that.  They would have asked us about

16     those things because they asked us about more banal things, and they

17     didn't ask us about those incidents.  Maybe that -- if those incidents

18     did happen, maybe they occurred after our conversation with the army,

19     after the month of October, because if they had happened before, I'm sure

20     that the representatives of the army would have inquired about those

21     incidents.  And they didn't.

22        Q.   And now tell me, please, you said that some of these incidents

23     did actually happen.  And now from your previous answer, I understand

24     that you said that if those incidents had happened in the first place.

25     Can we be more specific?  Let's start with the three incidents that I've

Page 2074

 1     just mentioned.  Are you saying that they did happen?  For example, that

 2     incident involving the courtyard of Milan Devcic's father.  Did that

 3     happen?

 4        A.   Yes.  I did hear about that, that an explosive device was thrown

 5     into that courtyard.

 6        Q.   And then when we mentioned Dobrivoje Katanski, as far as I

 7     understood you, you said that his farm was indeed blown up; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that happened.  But I don't know when and whether the

 9     military knew about that incident when we talked to them.  If that

10     happened prior to that meeting, the military would have inquired about

11     that incident because they inquired about more banal things than that.

12        Q.   Maybe they didn't want to ask you about that because they were

13     putting your sincerity at test.

14        A.   I really don't know what they were doing and what they wanted to

15     do.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Speculation, calling for speculation,

17     Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] When did you learn that Milan Devcic was

20     involved in the Serb military formations?

21        A.   I learnt about that when I went to Sid for negotiations.  I

22     bumped into him.  He was a member of those paramilitary units in

23     Tovarnik.

24        Q.   Nobody knew about that in Lovas before that?

25        A.   I don't think so.  We could only speculate, like we did about

Page 2075

 1     everybody else.

 2        Q.   And you say that you cannot rule out the possibility that that

 3     explosive device was thrown into his father's house after the talks that

 4     you had with Colonel Zelimir Petrovic?

 5        A.   I said that I don't know.  I don't know when that happened.  I

 6     don't know who did it.  There were a lot of speculations.  Maybe it was

 7     just a provocation, and that provocation could have come both from the

 8     Serbian as well as from the Croatian side.  It's just a speculation.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, i would change the topic and maybe

10     it is time for a break.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

12             Mr. Witness, Mr. Rendulic, we'll take the first break.  Come back

13     at 11.00.  You will be escorted out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rendulic, we also have information that in

24     July/August 1990 at a meeting of HDZ presidents and those three services

25     I've already mentioned, a decision was made to establish volunteer

Page 2076

 1     detachments, and a decision was made to form platoons within those

 2     detachments.

 3             Do you know anything about the setting up of volunteer

 4     detachments and those platoons?

 5        A.   I don't know about volunteer detachments or platoons.  I know

 6     what I said about guards.

 7        Q.   We also have information that a volunteer detachment of 120 men

 8     was formed in Lovas, commanded by Markica Grcanac.

 9        A.   I think that's completely inaccurate.  Because that

10     Markica Grcanac would not have been able to do that.

11        Q.   Do you know if there was some sort of review held of a volunteer

12     detachment from Lovas in the presence of about 50 people and all members

13     of the board of the HDZ in Lovas?

14        A.   I would have heard about it.  And there are other people who

15     would know better than I.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked again to not start

17     answering before the question is over.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, the interpreters ask once again to

20     pause after Mr. Zivanovic's question.  I know it's difficult, so I remind

21     you from time to time.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  But I jump

23     ahead of myself and get carried away and hasten to answer.  Thank you for

24     this reminder.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2077

 1        Q.   Do you know that some kind of review was held of volunteer

 2     detachments in Bogdanovci village involving a volunteer detachment from

 3     Lovas?

 4        A.   I don't know about Bogdanovci.  Because, I tell you, I was not

 5     part of these units and I know very little about what went on in

 6     Bogdanovci.

 7        Q.   According to the information we have - that's transcript

 8     page 1674, lines 2 through 4 - it was broadcast on TV.

 9        A.   I really don't know about that.

10        Q.   So you know nothing about volunteer detachments and the

11     detachments -- sorry, platoons within those detachments?

12        A.   I told you, I know only about civilian guards around the village.

13        Q.   You probably remember that you testified before the Higher Court

14     in Belgrade - the War Crimes Chamber - in the Lovas case.  That was on

15     the 25th of February, 2009.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D148, please.  It's tab 4, I think.

17             [Interpretation] Could we move to page 75 in B/C/S and page 69 in

18     English.

19        Q.   You were asked by counsel, Gradimir Nalic, and you answer:

20             In Lovas there was a Crisis Staff and then those platoons on duty

21     were organised.  Those platoons were made up of civilian population.

22             Counsel:  How many men in one platoon?

23             Answer:  I don't know depends on the platoon.  10 to 15,

24     depending on how people joined.

25             You remember this evidence you gave?

Page 2078

 1        A.   Just a minute.

 2             You didn't read where Gradimir Nalic says:

 3             How many platoons were needed in one shift to guard the village?

 4             I maybe mentioned platoons, but only platoons guarding the

 5     village, not the kind of unit that you mention.  This was something Nalic

 6     said.

 7        Q.   What are these platoons that guarded the village?

 8        A.   I've already told you.  We had to have a roster for this guard

 9     duty so that everyone should know when they are on duty.

10        Q.   In other words, they were organised into platoons.

11        A.   Squads, platoons, I don't know.  But we had to have a schedule, a

12     roster.  Who goes on guard when.  And Nalic asked how many of these

13     platoons were needed to guard the village.

14        Q.   As far as I can see, he asks you:

15             Do you know, in view of the organisation, the chain of command,

16     how was it organised below you?  Was it organised into platoons,

17     companies, squads in your village?

18             And then you answer how each community organised themselves, and

19     then you speak about Lovas.

20        A.   I -- you see, it says here:

21             "We did not stand guard in platoons.  We stood guard by

22     check-point."

23             That's my answer to this counsel who was questioning me.

24        Q.   At any rate, platoons existed.

25        A.   Platoons, or squads, I really don't know.  We called them

Page 2079

 1     platoons because we know what a platoon means.  We had done our military

 2     service in the JNA.

 3        Q.   You have said that the co-operative, while you were the general

 4     manager, gave loans to its co-operants.  And we have information that the

 5     agricultural co-operative in Lovas made a certain number of loans in cash

 6     to a number of HDZ members who were simultaneously members of volunteer

 7     detachments.  And these loans were, in fact, made for the purpose of

 8     purchasing weapons.

 9             Do you know anything about this borrowing -- this lending?

10        A.   No loans were ever given specifically to buy weapons.  In its

11     business with co-operants from Opatovac, Lovas, even Tovarnik, the

12     co-operative provided loans much earlier and continued in 1991 for

13     production, livestock breeding and farming.  We also gave loans to some

14     of our co-operants for other purposes.  When telephone lines were being

15     built, we provided loans of 1200 German marks.

16        Q.   You don't have to describe all the things you financed.

17     Concentrate on my question.

18             According to the information we have, these loans were officially

19     made for the purchase of agricultural inputs or livestock, but that

20     money, because these were cash loans, were used to buy weapons.

21        A.   If that were true, there would have been much more weapons.  Yes,

22     there was an increased demand for cash loans at that time, and we only

23     later found out why.  People were speculating, making profit.  The

24     inflation was high, so people went to Serbia and Bosnia, bought

25     German marks, returned to Croatia, and within 10, 15 days, they would

Page 2080

 1     have made 10, 15 per cent profit on the foreign exchange differentials.

 2     But we never gave anything for the purchase of weapons.  Whether anybody

 3     bought weapons, I really don't know.

 4             May I just add.  That man you mentioned yesterday,

 5     Ivo Madzarevic, you refer to him as some technical service for supplying

 6     weapons.  Before our talks with the army, he bought a hunting rifle in

 7     Sid.  I asked him about it, and he said, Yes, all this commotion will

 8     pass, and I will still have my hunting rifle for hunting purposes.

 9             That's how weapons were bought, because had you to obtain a

10     licence first.

11        Q.   At any rate, you don't know if any of those who got cash loans

12     used them to buy weapons later or not.  That's how I understood your

13     answer here.

14        A.   Well, if -- excuse me, may I?

15             If there had been mass purchase of weapons, then there would have

16     been many more weapons at the time when we were supposed to turn them

17     over.

18        Q.   My information is that it involved 15 to 20 such loans, and they

19     amounted to 6- to 7.000 dinars.  But if you don't remember those details,

20     tell me.

21        A.   I don't remember the amount.  I said loans were provided much

22     earlier, and we still provide them, cash loans for production purposes.

23        Q.   Do you know that Jozo Milas and Josip Grcanac collected foreign

24     currency in Lovas to buy weapons again?  That's our information.

25        A.   I don't know.  You say they could have bought them using those

Page 2081

 1     loans.  Then why would they go around begging?

 2        Q.   If only a certain number of loans was given, obviously other

 3     people did not apply for them or did not qualify for them.

 4             I'm asking you, independently of loans, do you know that these

 5     two people, Milas and Grcanac, collected money from citizens, foreign

 6     currency to buy weapons?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to repeat his

 8     answer.  He started it again too early.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you repeat your answer,

10     please.

11             Mr. Witness -- just -- just one moment.  You can see when you

12     should start talking.  That is, when, on the screen, the typing stops.

13     That means that the interpreter has finished and the court recorder has

14     finished.  So that could be helpful for you.

15             So could you now repeat your answer, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I'm an

17     operative.  I have never been before courts much, and in operative work

18     you have to be quick.

19             I said I don't believe Milas and Grcanac collected that money

20     because they didn't need to.  If there were loans, as you say, why would

21     they go around begging to buy weapons?  Milas worked in our company and

22     Grcanac worked in Vukovar.  I don't know where would they find the time

23     to go around collecting money to buy weapons.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, Mr. Rendulic, this was a really

25     simple yes-or-no question.  I mean, a question you could answer with:

Page 2082

 1     Yes, I know that they did, or yes, I do not know that they did.  And

 2     obviously you don't know -- you -- you don't know about it; is that

 3     right?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know that sometime between the 10th and 15th of September,

 7     1991, weapons were distributed in Lovas?

 8        A.   I don't know that weapons were distributed.

 9        Q.   According to our information, 20 Kalashnikovs were delivered to

10     Lovas at that time.

11        A.   I apologise, but I must say something.

12             If things had been purchased with the help of loans and if those

13     had been delivered to Lovas, how many weapons would have ended up in

14     Lovas?  A lot, I suppose.  I really don't know.

15        Q.   Does that mean that you don't know anything about the delivery of

16     the 20 Kalashnikovs to Lovas in the month of September 1991?

17        A.   I don't know, and I don't think so.

18        Q.   And now, tell me, please, you know that the Serbian Democratic

19     Party existed in Croatia at that time.  Were there any members of that

20     party in Lovas?

21        A.   I really didn't know that there was a Serbian Democratic Party,

22     and I didn't know who its members were.  I'm not aware of its existence

23     in Lovas either.

24             Are you talking about the SDS, the so-called SDS?

25        Q.   You really don't know that that party existed in Croatia?

Page 2083

 1        A.   I knew that it existed in Croatia, but I didn't know that it

 2     existed in our area, in our region.

 3        Q.   Yesterday, as part of your testimony, you said that there was no

 4     police in Lovas, on pages 1951 to 1954.

 5             Let's look at the same exhibit that is on the screen.  Page 70 in

 6     B/C/S; and pages 63 and 64 in English.

 7             Again, Attorney Gradimir Nalic asked you this:

 8             "Tell me, please, how did it happen that the temporary Ilok MUP

 9     police station ... was there, was it not ... in a school?

10             "Witness Adam Rendulic:  Because we asked for it ... we were

11     quite insecure.  We had nothing to defend ourselves with.  We saw what

12     was going on, that those military and paramilitary troops were constantly

13     passing through, and actually the population was alarmed and fled.  And

14     so in order to alleviate the pressure on Ilok, they too asked for a

15     branch to be established there so that the people would feel more

16     secure."

17             The next question:

18             "... what duties did they perform, this branch with 10 to

19     15 men ... in the village?  They did not simply sit in the school, I

20     presume."

21             And you said:

22             "Well, they did not.  They patrolled the village."

23             And later on you say that they drove around in civilian vehicles

24     and that they wore chequer-board signs on their uniforms.

25             Yesterday you testified that there were no police in Lovas

Page 2084

 1     itself, but, rather, that the police officers from Lovas would go to

 2     Tovarnik and some other places where they worked.

 3             My impression is that what you stated in front of the

 4     Higher Court in Belgrade contradicts your testimony yesterday.

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  But you have to put that in time.  Yesterday we talked

 6     about two different time-periods.  The early one, after the events in

 7     Borovo Selo, in May; and these particular policemen arrived towards the

 8     end of September at a time when we negotiated with the army.  We

 9     requested for a police detachment to be sent to Lovas to provide the

10     villagers with a higher level of security.  We wanted to make sure that

11     the arrival of the army would not cause unexpected events and to prevent

12     the locals of Lovas from fleeing to Ilok.

13             I told you yesterday that a lot of the population, after our

14     negotiations on the 28th, left and went to Ilok.  That's why we asked for

15     the policemen to come.  They were billeted in the school because the

16     school was closed, and those police officers stayed for a few days and

17     then they returned to Ilok, from which they had come from in the first

18     place.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could we have a precise reference

20     of -- from the transcript where the witness would have said that there

21     were no policemen from Ilok coming to Lovas but going to other places.

22     Because in -- in this -- here -- here, the witness seems to have said

23     that they patrolled Lovas.  Didn't the witness say the same, in other

24     words, yesterday?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yesterday he said there was --

Page 2085

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Precise reference, please.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I said yesterday, precise reference, pages 1951

 3     through 1954.  He said that there was no police which was in -- in Lovas.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which was stationed in Lovas.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  There was no station in Lovas.  There was

 6     no standing police in Lovas.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Does he say the contrary in this document?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I understood it that they stayed in a

 9     school -- in the school in Lovas.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  His answer is:  Well, they did not.  They

11     patrolled the village.  Nothing else.  And you read the answer.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  There is a question -- I'll read it in the B/C/S.

13             [Interpretation] Tell me, please, how come that the Ilok police

14     found themselves in the -- in a school?  Are you referring to the Lovas

15     school?

16             "Because we wanted them to come.  We did not feel safe."

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday you did not talk about the year 1991.

20     You talked about the year 1990; right?

21        A.   Let's take things slowly.  Yesterday we talked about the year

22     1991.  However, prior to our talks with the army which took place in

23     September.  Up to then, there were no police in Lovas.  I had just told

24     you, and I don't want to go over the same grounds again, we invited the

25     police to come after our talks with the army, and I told you why we did

Page 2086

 1     that.

 2        Q.   After the contacts with the army, after your initial contacts,

 3     and after you invited the police, after the police arrived, did you

 4     inform the army that you had requested the Ilok police to come to Lovas?

 5        A.   Obviously you did not understand me.  I told you that the police

 6     was invited after our talks with the army.

 7        Q.   My impression was that you had several rounds of talks with the

 8     military in September 1991, that you did not have just one round of

 9     talks.

10        A.   We talked on two occasions, on two different days:  On the 27th,

11     and on the 28th of September.

12        Q.   And after that second day, after the 28th, you invited the Ilok

13     police to come to Lovas; right?

14        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

15        Q.   And now let's look at the part which concerns the attack on

16     Lovas.

17             I would like to ask you something in very general terms.  Since

18     you served in the army, you should know this.  Could you distinguish

19     between a regular recruit and a member of the Territorial Defence?

20        A.   It was not easy, but, yes, you could distinguish between the two.

21     Mainly by behaviour and by appearance.  Regular recruits, soldiers, were

22     more controlled and better groomed, whereas the members of the

23     Territorial Defence were a bit more unruly, and in terms of their

24     appearance they were not young lads.  They were mostly middle-aged men,

25     so one could conclude that they belonged to paramilitaries rather than to

Page 2087

 1     the regular military.

 2        Q.   Would you agree with me if I told you that members of the JNA

 3     serving their compulsory service looked better groomed, that they -- they

 4     were clean-shaven, that their haircut was neater, in comparison with the

 5     others?

 6        A.   Yes.  That's exactly what I meant and what I said.

 7        Q.   I'm not going to talk about the prior shelling of Lovas.  I will

 8     go straight to the 10th October 1991, i.e., to the time when the attack

 9     was carried out and when the JNA entered Lovas.

10             At that time, you were in your house.  You were hiding until noon

11     or thereabouts, and then you left your house, if I understood you

12     properly.  You said that there was no armed resistance put up against

13     that attack on Lovas.

14             Could you please explain how you knew that, seeing that you were

15     in your cellar?  How could you know what was happening outside and around

16     the village?

17        A.   The reason I know that was that a prior agreement had been

18     reached that -- that after the Sid talks, we realised that we did not

19     have the strength to resist the army and that we should not do it at all,

20     and that was generally accepted.

21        Q.   Well, that was the agreement prior to the attack.  However, my

22     question was different.  Are you claiming that there were no skirmishes,

23     that there were no armed conflicts, or whether there was just an

24     agreement that those should not happen?

25        A.   I'm sure that there were no armed conflicts.

Page 2088

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D168.  It is tab 8.  161, sorry.

 2     Tab 8.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, this should be something that's not

 5     shown to the witness but simply put to him.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.  Yeah, yeah.  That's correct, it should not

 7     be broadcasted or shown to the witness.

 8             [Interpretation] I'm looking for the second page in B/C/S; and in

 9     the English version, it is the last paragraph on page 3.

10        Q.   This is a report that we obtained, and I'm going to read a

11     paragraph from it.

12             "Fighting for our village, Lovas, lasted several hours, four to

13     five hours all together.  The resistance and the defence was put up by

14     members of the ZNG, among whom there were also our own locals, i.e., they

15     were all locals of Lovas.  And all those who fought, i.e., who defended

16     the village, withdrew towards Ilok.  Those of us who did not participate

17     in the fighting, we were all civilians, the elderly, women, and children,

18     remained in the village."

19             This is a piece of information that we have from which you can

20     conclude that there was fighting around the village and that, after four

21     or five hours, the fighting stopped and defenders withdrew.

22             Can you comment?

23        A.   I'm trying to control myself and help the work of the

24     interpreters.

25             I had to laugh.  Again, this is incorrect, and this is not

Page 2089

 1     truthful, like so many things before.

 2        Q.   How can you know that from the point of view of your cellar where

 3     you were hiding?

 4        A.   I was not in the cellar all that time.  We were all, or most of

 5     us, in one place.  I told you yesterday, we were at Badnjara [phoen], all

 6     those who went to Ilok later on.  The women, the children, mostly

 7     civilians, and none of the defenders or those who participated in

 8     fighting were in Lovas.

 9             I apologise.  Even the Crisis Staff that we discussed and the HDZ

10     members had not been in Lovas for three or four days prior to that.  They

11     had left for Ilok even before.

12        Q.   You say they left for Ilok.  Does that mean that was before the

13     attack on the 10th of October?

14        A.   Yes, before.

15        Q.   Did you have occasion once you left Lovas to meet at least once

16     for -- with Jakov Balic, for instance?

17        A.   Not only Jakov Balic, but also with some other men who had gone

18     out with their hunting rifles and pistols.  They were in my sector, some

19     200 metres away, while I was in the cellar.

20        Q.   Was Tomo Balic one of them?  Was he amongst them?

21        A.   Tomo Balic, he was in Vukovar.  He wasn't even in Lovas.

22        Q.   What about Sinisa Pavlicic?

23        A.   Sinisa Pavlicic at the time was just a young lad.  He was a kid.

24        Q.   What about Josip Conjar?

25        A.   Well, as for Josip, I can't really remember.

Page 2090

 1        Q.   You see, we have information that they had all taken part in the

 2     fighting.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I refer to the page, transcript page 1755, lines

 4     15 through 25.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] I'd like you to tell us one more thing to do

 6     with the funeral in Sotin that you mention, the funeral of a relative of

 7     yours.

 8             You told us that he was a civilian, in fact.  Please just

 9     reply --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So he was not a member of any military formation or the police or

12     the ZNG?

13        A.   No.  They were just part of the patrols or guard details at the

14     check-points, like Milo and Vaso.

15        Q.   And you said that he was killed in the fighting in

16     Borovo Naselje.  I believe this was the engineers' club or so, in that

17     building or around that building.

18             Did anyone explain to you why it was that in order to defend this

19     building in Borovo Naselje, he was called to come, he was asked to come

20     from Sotin, and get there as a civilian?

21        A.   I don't know why he was called up but he was not the only one who

22     left.  From that check-point where they were, and this was in the

23     direction of Vukovar, the check-point on the road, they were asked to

24     come and assist at the technical club, or technological club, in

25     Borovo Naselje in order to help to push out the paramilitary forces or,

Page 2091

 1     as they referred to them, Chetniks, from that building towards

 2     Borovo Selo.

 3        Q.   Were there enough men in Borovo Naselje itself to resolve that

 4     problem so that your relative, for instance, as a civilian, had to be

 5     called up to take part in the defence?  Weren't there enough police and

 6     ZNG members there?

 7        A.   I've already said that he was not the only one who went there.

 8     There were ten or 12 of them who left the check-point, the check-point

 9     towards Vukovar, and this engineers' club belonged to Vukovar town, and

10     we know how few defenders there were in Vukovar at the time to defend the

11     entire area of both Vukovar and Borovo Selo.

12        Q.   The group that your relative was in who left, they were all

13     civilians; right?

14        A.   Yes, they were all civilians.

15        Q.   And they were armed?

16        A.   Yes.  Well, some of them had -- they had various, different

17     weapons.

18        Q.   You told us that many local people in Lovas had weapons and that

19     they had permits for those weapons.  You recall that?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, Your Honours, that misstates his testimony.

22     I think he stated that about 30 to 35 people had weapons, but ...

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You said that of some 30 to 35 people; right?  Was that your

25     assessment, or did you know exactly how many men had permits to carry

Page 2092

 1     weapons?

 2        A.   Well, as I was a hunter myself and -- I was able to learn that

 3     information from the sports club that I was a member.

 4        Q.   There were also pistols, if I'm not mistaken.  So this was not

 5     your standard hunting weapon, was it?

 6        A.   Well, obviously, you're not familiar with these things.  Each

 7     hunter has a permit for side-arms in order to fire that shot of mercy,

 8     the mercy shot, so I, too, had a pistol as a hunter.

 9        Q.   You are aware of these 30 to 35 permits that were issued to the

10     members of the hunting club; correct?

11             Now, do you know whether the Ministry of Interior in Vukovar

12     issued permits to people who are not hunters?

13        A.   I wouldn't know anything about that, but it was possible to

14     obtain a weapon, to request a permit, and once it was assessed that they

15     were entitled to it, then the permit would be issued to such a person.

16        Q.   You said on page 1981 that the military knew about the permits

17     issued by the police.  Do you recall that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Why is it that you thought that the army would know about the

20     permits issued by MUP in Vukovar?  Permits to carry weapons.

21        A.   Well, we knew because a number of policemen who worked in

22     Vukovar, most of them Serbs, knew this, and they checked the files to see

23     who had weapons and who didn't.  And, on the other hand, a lot of people

24     bought hunting weapons in Sid.  That's where I got my weapon.  There was

25     a company called Jelen.  So, more or less, we all went to Sid to buy

Page 2093

 1     weapons, which is in Serbia.

 2        Q.   In other words, you believed that the Serbs who worked -- who

 3     were employed at the Vukovar MUP provided information to the military

 4     through unofficial channels about the number of permits issued and to

 5     whom they were issued.

 6        A.   Well, you could put it that way, but it was no secret.

 7        Q.   Well, it was not a secret to whom?

 8        A.   Well, to anyone.  People publicly carried their weapons, and you

 9     could see in public when they went hunting.

10        Q.   In other words, you believed that the army could know about this

11     because people knew generally who it was who had weapons and then they

12     would report this to the -- to the army, information of that nature?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Yesterday you talked about the circumstances in which volunteer

15     Djordjevic was killed.  He took part in the operation in Lovas on the

16     10th of October.  So I would like to ask you - because you were not

17     present yourself - where you got the information how all of this

18     transpired?

19        A.   When we arrived in Ilok, of course, we exchanged information

20     about everything that had happened and how it went, and that's when I

21     learned about this paramilitary and how he got killed.

22        Q.   Can't you tell us who you got this information from?

23        A.   Well, I couldn't really tell you specifically because this

24     happened on the -- on the way out of the village towards Opatovac, so it

25     wasn't in the village itself that it happened.  And, there, I was told,

Page 2094

 1     during the talks with the army, when they told me, Well, we can't control

 2     what's going on in the fields, we can only keep under control what was

 3     happening in the village.  And now to point out specifically who it was

 4     who told me that, I can't really recall because there were a lot of us

 5     who had fled to Ilok.

 6        Q.   When you say that you told the army that you could not guarantee

 7     for events outside the village in the fields, what was it that you're

 8     referring to?

 9        A.   Well, of course, around Lovas there were fields, cornfields and

10     vineyards and so on, so all these things could have happened some 100 or

11     150 metres away from the village.

12        Q.   Very well.  But the defence of Lovas then would not be organised

13     within the houses themselves, but, rather, outside of the village

14     itself - at least that's my understanding - because it would -- one could

15     infer from this that the defence would not be put up from the houses

16     themselves but, rather, from the villages that were around -- from the

17     fields that were around the village.

18        A.   Well, Mr. Zivanovic, I know what your task is, but I've already

19     said that there was no defence.  The defence had just fallen apart on the

20     29th of September, when we had those talks with the military.  We knew

21     that there was no chance of putting up any resistance.  There were no

22     check-points anymore.  Nothing.  Everyone had already left.  And there

23     was nothing left around the villages anymore.  Because, had it been so,

24     had there been checks, the paramilitaries wouldn't have been able to

25     reach -- to come close -- to come up close to the village during the

Page 2095

 1     night.  Because when the artillery attack was over, they moved from the

 2     very houses on the outskirts of the village.

 3             So had there been some guards overnight, they would have been

 4     able to see this, and then they could shoot in the air to let us know

 5     that there were paramilitaries there, that they were already in those

 6     Serb houses.  And, of course, in that case, people would have fled during

 7     the night and not have been caught in their sleep, as it were.

 8        Q.   Well, I would just like to clarify one thing here.

 9             When you said to the representatives of the JNA that we couldn't

10     guarantee for what was going to happen outside the village in the fields,

11     that should be taken as you being unable -- you being unable to guarantee

12     there would be no resistance in the villages.  I'm not saying that that's

13     what happened, but I'm just saying when you said to the representatives

14     of the JNA, We guarantee that there won't be any resistance from the

15     village but we can't provide the same guarantees for the meadows around

16     the village, then that could be understood as -- that there would be

17     resistance around the village from the fields; correct?  So I'm not

18     talking about what happened on -- on the day of the 10th of October

19     itself.

20        A.   Well, again, this is -- you're putting something I didn't say to

21     me.

22             We were not talking about resistance.  We were talking about

23     possible incidents from the time when there were these negotiations going

24     on because we knew that there could be incidents on the border itself and

25     then the army would have an excuse to intervene.  But we never talked

Page 2096

 1     about any resistance.

 2        Q.   I believe that yesterday you mentioned the name of this man who

 3     was wounded and who then fired his pistol and shot the volunteer

 4     Djordjevic.  The name was not recorded in the transcript so could you

 5     please repeat it now.

 6        A.   Well, I mentioned Antun Sabljak, whose nickname was Rodjo.  He

 7     was the first man who was killed, but this was outside of the village

 8     when he tried to flee in his car.  I also said that yesterday.

 9        Q.   I was looking at this list shown you by the Prosecutor yesterday,

10     the people who were killed on the 10th of October, and I didn't find his

11     name.  I'll try to find it.  I don't have much time left.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  I don't have the exhibit number, but the

13     65 ter number is 5062.

14             And perhaps I can speed this whole process up by referring

15     Defence counsel to number 16 on that list.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit Number P315, admitted under seal.

17     Thank you.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  15, yeah.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Will we have it on the screen?  Thank you.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is page 3, as far as I recall.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] And please look ...

22             Could we just zoom in on the list.

23             I don't see Antun Sabljak on this list, among the victims,

24     casualties.

25             At any rate, I won't dwell on this list anymore.

Page 2097

 1             I wanted to clear up just a few more matters with you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, shouldn't we give the witness the

 3     opportunity to check the list and say whether --

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, of course.  Yes, of course.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- it's there or not [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  Sorry.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] You have looked at the list, haven't you?

 8        A.   Where?  My screen is off.

 9             Tomo Sabljak is the name.  We called him Antun.  It's under 17,

10     Tomo Sabljak.  But I don't think this is right.  I think his name is

11     Antun Sabljak, nicknamed Rodjo.  You can check and you will find his name

12     on all the lists of casualties from Lovas.

13             The person who made this list made a mistake.  His name is Antun

14     and they abbreviated it to Tomo.

15        Q.   At any rate, the name Antun Sabljak is not on the list, is it?

16     Do you agree?

17        A.   That's that person.  I'm sure.  And it's verifiable on all lists.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We should like to at P320.  These

19     are referendum results for Ilok.

20        Q.   You've said you don't believe that there were two factions in

21     Ilok, after seeing a video, and you can see it from these results.

22             It's on page 2018 of the transcript.

23             When you look at these results, it turns out that 260 people

24     turned out for the referendum out of the total indicated here -- sorry.

25     Out of the total of 5600, 2.684 turned out.  940 voted for, and 2.619

Page 2098

 1     voted against.  I would say that there were, in fact, two groups of

 2     citizens.

 3        A.   Where do you see who voted for?  I see that the number of ballots

 4     indicating against is 2.500-something.  Where do you see for?

 5        Q.   It's not very legible here but in the translation you can see the

 6     number 240 voted for.

 7        A.   Perhaps.

 8        Q.   Doesn't this tell you that there were, indeed, two groups of

 9     citizens.  One was against the proposal --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, for and against what?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I tried to -- I try to clarify it with the

12     witness.

13             [Interpretation] Could we now look at P319.

14        Q.   You see, there are two questions posed at the referendum.  One

15     was:  Are you in favour of surrendering the totality of weapons and

16     signing an agreement with the JNA?  And the second question is:  Are you

17     in favour of collectively moving out in view of the situation?

18             To be quite honest, I don't know whether the results that I

19     showed you before were for the first, or the second, or for both

20     questions together.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, Mr. Zivanovic, you're turning back to your

22     yesterday's question about the two factions, on the basis of this; right?

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But if I remember this well, your question

25     yesterday about two factions was about one faction being in favour of

Page 2099

 1     putting up resistance; and the other faction being against that.

 2             Is my memory correct?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't recall that it was related to Ilok.  I --

 4     I don't know ... maybe -- maybe I am wrong.  Sorry.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So what -- what exactly is your question about

 6     the two factions?  Two factions --

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  My question is that -- my question is if he --

 8     sees the results of the referendum, could he draw the conclusion that

 9     there were two factions of citizens in Ilok.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  With regard to the question whether to surrender

11     arms and whether to move out of Ilok?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't know what was the result of what

13     question.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One of those two?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Not about putting up resistance.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no, no.  It was not the question in the

18     referendum.  Sorry.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour.  Mr. President, I share your

21     confusion because the video we showed yesterday, that was the issue that

22     was brought up by Mr. Hadzic, whether they would surrender or not.  And

23     so I understand the confusion.  But if the issue is only whether some

24     people voted for surrendering their arms and others voted for leaving,

25     that's -- we have no problem with that question.

Page 2100

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So, my question is just this:  I really don't know which of these

 4     two questions featured at the referendum.  But in any case, don't you see

 5     from the results that there were two groups of citizens?  One group of

 6     citizens was in favour; the other was against.  Whatever the question

 7     was.

 8        A.   Of course.  First of all, not everyone turned out for the

 9     referendum, as these things usually happen.

10             Second, not all Croats moved out of Lovas.  Some stayed.  The

11     same thing happened in Ilok.  Some wanted to move out of their homes, and

12     some wanted to stay.  And most of the people who stayed were Slovaks.

13     But you cannot talk about separate factions.

14        Q.   And my last question concerns the evidence you gave yesterday;

15     namely, that, on the road leading out of Ilok, some people had seen

16     Slavko Dokmanovic.

17             I've gone through your previous statements given to the OTP, and

18     before the District Court in Zagreb in 2003, and your testimony before

19     the Higher Court for War Crimes, and I noticed you never mentioned that

20     before.

21        A.   I did not.  Nobody asked me about it.  And I believed it wasn't

22     important because -- but I would have liked to have seen him because we

23     knew each other well.  Of course, he is dead now.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rendulic.  I have no further questions.

25        A.   Welcome.


Page 2101

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I did check my memory on the two

 2     faction issue, and I refer you to page 75 of the yesterday's transcript,

 3     where you asked:

 4             "He mentions that:  'In Ilok, one wing offered to surrender while

 5     the other extreme wing will not allow it.'  Were there two wings or

 6     factions ..."

 7             And in the next question you say:

 8             "Was there any faction that was in favour of armed conflict or of

 9     entering into armed resistance against the JNA?"

10             So that's quite a different question about factions than the one

11     you put to the witness today.  Do you agree?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I agree, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Olmsted, I suppose after the break you will have re-direct

15     questions?

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Very limited, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

18             Mr. Witness, we'll take the second break now.  We come back at

19     12.45.  You will be escorted out of the courtroom.  Thank you very much.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]


Page 2102

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:

 4        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, I have a few questions to clarify some issues that

 5     came up during your cross-examination.  I promise I'll try to be quick so

 6     you can finish with your testimony very soon.

 7             The issue of loans was raised by the Defence today.  You were

 8     asked a number of questions about loans that the Lovas co-operative would

 9     give to the community.

10             Can you tell us, when a person received a loan from the

11     co-operative, did they have to provide proof that they were going -- they

12     used the money for the purposes that the loan was provided?

13        A.   Yes.  Not a single loan was provided without a contract, and the

14     contract stipulated for what purpose the loan is given, and any producer

15     that benefitted from a loan had to repay in kind.  If it was given for

16     livestock, for farming, they would repay in kind.  Only in exceptional

17     cases did they repay in money.

18        Q.   And in 1990 and 1991, was there any problem with this issue?

19     Were people using their funds for purposes that were outside the

20     agreement, or were they able to establish that they used it for the

21     proper purpose of the loan?

22        A.   As far as I know, they did not use loans for other purposes, and

23     people could not repay in kind because of the war that began in 1991.

24        Q.   Why did the co-operative continue to provide loans in 1991?

25        A.   Well, we kept lending as long as we were able to continue

Page 2103

 1     operating.  When the war began, the co-operative ceased to be active, and

 2     that included a cessation of lending, and the entire operation.

 3        Q.   And when you said "when the war began, the co-operative ceased to

 4     be active," when was that?  What month?

 5        A.   All the way up to the 1st of October we thought and hoped that

 6     nothing much would happen.  There would be no war.  The whole situation

 7     would calm down and that the things that later happened would not.  By

 8     the time I left, there was no work going on in the co-operative or in the

 9     village.

10        Q.   Had you known that Lovas would be attacked by the JNA or other

11     Serb forces, would the co-operative have continued to provide loans up

12     until October?

13        A.   If we had known, of course, we wouldn't.  We would have saved the

14     money or transferred it somewhere.

15        Q.   Now, yesterday at transcript page 2031, you mentioned that a ZNG

16     unit was located at the Vupik farm.  Do you recall saying that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you tell us, where was that Vupik farm located?

19        A.   The headquarters was in Vukovar.  And this was a local branch in

20     the municipality of Opatovac.

21        Q.   So the Vupik farm that had a ZNG unit at that time was in

22     Opatovac?

23        A.   Opatovci.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Opatovac, correction.  Opatovac.

25             MR. OLMSTED:

Page 2104

 1        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  Now, if you know, how long was

 2     this ZNG unit at that location?  For what period?

 3        A.   Very briefly.  I think I said yesterday that there was an air

 4     attack on that area, and luckily that unit had left before the attack.

 5     That must mean that they were gone by July, mid-July.

 6        Q.   Now, today you were asked a number of questions about the police

 7     who came from Ilok at the end of September of 1991 to help patrol,

 8     maintain peace in the village of Lovas.

 9             Can you tell us, first of all, how many police came from Ilok at

10     that time?

11        A.   I think it was ten to 15 policemen, but not to maintain law and

12     order.  There was law and order.  We invited them so that if

13     paramilitaries or the army come, they should protect us and give moral

14     support to the population so it doesn't flee to Ilok.  At that time, we

15     still had peace and order.

16        Q.   Were they brought to fight the JNA if they came into the village?

17        A.   How would ten people stand up to them?  There was never any

18     mention of any forces in Lovas, civilian guards, or those ten policemen

19     opposing the army that far outnumbered anything we could muster.  And I

20     saw that with my own eyes when I went for talks in Sid.

21        Q.   You mentioned today that they left a few days after they arrived

22     and returned to Ilok.

23             Can you tell us, did they leave before or after the shelling

24     began in Lovas?

25        A.   Long before the attack.  They returned because they said

Page 2105

 1     themselves:  What are we doing here?  We can't stand up to the army.

 2     Part of the population of Lovas had already left.  It's peaceful here.

 3     We have no business here.  And it -- I talked to them myself.

 4        Q.   Today the Defence counsel put to you that you were in your cellar

 5     the whole time on the morning of the 10th of October, and you clarified

 6     that you were, in fact, not in your cellar the whole time that morning.

 7             Can you tell us, whether you were in your cellar or outside your

 8     cellar, were you able to observe what was going on in your neighbourhood

 9     on the 10th of October?

10        A.   When the first shells started falling around 7.20, I was in my

11     cellar.  But when the shelling stopped, I went outside.  My neighbour

12     called me and said, Adam, come and see my -- the grandfather died.

13     Milan Latas; I mentioned him before.  And then my father came.  We

14     started talking about what we were going to do.  Unfortunately my father

15     was also killed later.  I said, I don't know.  Let's go back inside.

16     Perhaps there would be more shelling.  Such provocations happened before

17     and then this woman said --

18        Q.   Mr. -- yes.  I'm sorry.  I don't mean to interrupt you but I just

19     want to finish up very quickly here.  I just was asking you whether --

20     wherever you were that morning, were you able to observe what was going

21     on in your neighbourhood?

22        A.   I was able to see from the door of the cellar of my

23     father-in-law.  I was looking for a moment to run away.  I had already

24     gone outside and then returned.  And my neighbour said, There's shooting

25     from all sides.  And those were these dum-dum bullets that were very

Page 2106

 1     loud.  We saw all kinds of military uniforms, green and camouflage, and

 2     even people in workers' overalls.

 3        Q.   And while you were inside or outside, did you see any armed

 4     resistance by the Croat citizens of Lovas?

 5        A.   I've already said this to the opposing counsel.  There was no

 6     resistance.  Resistance was impossible.  General panic prevailed after

 7     the shelling, and even those at the Crisis Staff who said that we had our

 8     own territorial units formed, they themselves fled a few days later.

 9     That's why we formed that body to calm the situation down, to calm the

10     citizens, et cetera.

11        Q.   On the morning of the 10th of October, where were the Croat

12     citizens who were still in Lovas that morning?  Where were they during

13     this attack?

14        A.   Most of the population - it was 7.20 - people were still inside

15     their homes.  The children were still in bed.  There was no -- not much

16     work going on those days, so people mostly stayed at home.

17        Q.   And when the attack -- attack began, did they remain in their

18     homes?

19        A.   No, they scattered.  Each to a different side.  They were all

20     over the village.

21        Q.   And you testified that you were in your cellar.  Were you -- were

22     other citizens in their cellars as well?

23        A.   Those who had cellars, they were in the cellars.  My neighbour of

24     whom I spoke yesterday, the lady with two young children, she did not

25     have a cellar.  That's why she hid in my cellar.  And only a few seconds


Page 2107

 1     after she found shelter in my cellar, a shell exploded in front of her

 2     house.  So if she hadn't been as quick as she was, she would have died,

 3     together with her two children.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Rendulic, this brings your testimony to an

 8     end.  We thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  You

 9     are now released as a witness.  The court usher will escort you out of

10     the courtroom, and we wish you a safe journey back home.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

12     Will you allow me to say something at the end of my testimony?  Which

13     will not be part of my testimony.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to thank

16     you very much for carrying out such a responsible task.  Thank you very

17     much for everything you will do in this very responsible and important

18     work you do for the benefit of the peace and justice in the world.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Zivanovic, I do not blame you

21     for any of the questions that you put to me, because I know this is your

22     job.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.  The court usher will

24     now --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, I would


Page 2108

 1     like to thank everybody, and goodbye.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I'll turn over the podium to my

 4     colleague Mr. Gillett for the next witness.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The next witness may be brought in.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Could -- can you

 9     hear me in a language you understand?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Yes, I can.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             Can you please tell us your name, your date of birth, and your

13     ethnicity.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tomislav Rukavina.  I was born on

15     the 6th of February, 1964, and I am Croat by ethnicity.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to make the solemn

17     declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.

18     That implies that you commit yourself -- your expose yourself to the

19     penalty of perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the

20     Tribunal.

21             So can I now ask you to read the solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV RUKAVINA

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]


Page 2109

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may sit down.

 2             Mr. Gillett, your witness.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Gillett:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rukavina.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   Sir, did you give a statement to the Prosecution of this Tribunal

 8     in 1996?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10             MR. GILLETT:  I would ask that 65 ter 2234.1, which is an ICTY

11     witness statement, be placed on the monitor in front of the witness.

12             Your Honours, the Prosecution's uploaded a version of the

13     statement with paragraph numbers added, because the previous copy did not

14     have these, for ease of reference.  And that should be tab 1A of your

15     binder.

16             Now, if it is agreeable to counsel, could I provide the witness

17     with a hard copy of his statement, since I will be referring to it on a

18     number of occasions.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We agree.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the document in front of you to be the

23     statement that you gave in 1996 and to have your signature on it?

24        A.   I do.  And I -- I also recognise my signature.

25        Q.   And when you gave the statement in 1996, was it read to you in

Page 2110

 1     your language?

 2        A.   Yes, it was.

 3        Q.   And when you came to The Hague this week to testify, were you

 4     given the opportunity to read the statement and make corrections to it?

 5        A.   Yes, I was able to do that.

 6        Q.   Now, I understand you have a small number of corrections to make.

 7             Firstly, I understand that you would like to correct the spelling

 8     of the last name of the individual who's referred to as Bora Tomicic on a

 9     number of occasions in the statement.  How should that name be spelt?

10        A.   Boro Tomic.

11        Q.   Next, I understand that you'd like to correct the reference at

12     paragraph 11, and that's pages 2 to 3 of the B/C/S copy; page 3 in the

13     English.  This is the reference to:

14             "All of the women and children being evacuated from Bapska in the

15     period of 2nd August to 16 August 1991."

16             I understand that all of the women that were asked if they wanted

17     to leave, left, but some women did not want to leave and remained in

18     Bapska; is that correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Next, I understand that the date that is listed in your statement

21     for when Boro Tomic came with the ultimatum from Barjaktarevic and the

22     date when you went to the negotiations, which is listed as

23     27 September 1991, needs to be clarified; and at a later point in your

24     statement, you refer to the ultimatum being read on 27 or 28 or

25     29 September.

Page 2111

 1             So my question is:  What was the date on which you received the

 2     ultimatum and had negotiations with the JNA about it?

 3        A.   I provided my statement five years after the events so I wasn't

 4     entirely sure what date it was.  That's why I hedged my answer around the

 5     27th, 28th, or 29th.

 6             The exact date, finally, was the 28th.

 7        Q.   And, finally, I understand that you'd like to clarify a point

 8     about the negotiations that you had with Major Barjaktarevic, and this is

 9     referred to at paragraph 17, which is page 3 of the B/C/S; page 4 of the

10     English.

11             There, it states that when you went for the negotiations on the

12     border, you told him that the people in Bapska had no weapons to

13     surrender.  However, is it correct that you had hunting rifles, the

14     people in Bapska had hunting rifles?

15        A.   That is correct.  But people had permits to carry those arms,

16     which means that those weapons were not illegal, but, rather, legal.  And

17     that's why we considered there was no need for us to hand those weapons

18     over.  They had been purchased with our own money, and they were used

19     exclusively for sporting activities, i.e., for hunting.

20        Q.   And did you tell Major Barjaktarevic that you had these hunting

21     rifles?

22        A.   Yes, we told him that.

23        Q.   Aside from those clarifications, is there anything else you'd

24     like to change in the statement?

25        A.   I believe that that would be all.

Page 2112

 1        Q.   And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the

 2     information in the statement?

 3        A.   I do.

 4        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions about these same issues

 5     today, would you give the same answers?

 6        A.   Indeed, I would.

 7             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution tenders

 8     the statement which is 65 ter 02234, as well as 02234.1, which is the

 9     numbered version.  And they can be admitted publicly.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think the numbered version would suffice,

11     Mr. Gillett.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Absolutely.  We're happy with that being admitted.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If no objection from the Defence.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P324.  That's

17     only the numbered version.  Thank you.

18             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Rukavina, what was the ethnic composition of Bapska

20     prior to the conflict in 1991?

21        A.   Bapska was a nearly ethnically pure Croatian village.  There was

22     a very small percentage of Serbs; perhaps 1 or 2 per cent.

23        Q.   Now, looking at paragraphs 8 and 9 of your statement, which

24     should be on page 2 to 3 in B/C/S, and page 3 in English, you refer to

25     raids carried out by Chetniks into villages.  Which villages were raided

Page 2113

 1     by the Chetniks?

 2        A.   They raided the villages that had fallen before Bapska.

 3     Dzelatovci, Nijemci, Tovarnik, Ilaca, Slakovci, Tompojevci, and the other

 4     villages that were there, including Sotin, of course.  From the people

 5     who lived close to Ilok we learned the facts of those events.

 6        Q.   And how close are these villages to Bapska?

 7        A.   None of them were more than 20 to 25 kilometres away.  They were

 8     all close to each other.

 9        Q.   When the Chetniks raided these villages, how did they treat the

10     inhabitants of the villages?

11        A.   They treated them inhumanely.  There was torture, killings,

12     rapes, and other such things.  That is what we heard from the people

13     themselves.  We heard their statements.

14        Q.   And these raids that you've referred to in the various towns,

15     when did they occur, approximately?

16        A.   On the 8th and the 9th -- or, rather, in August, September, and

17     October.  Eventually Ilok and its surroundings were raided.

18        Q.   And some of the villages that you referred to having fallen

19     before Bapska, were these raids carried out before you received the

20     ultimatum in Bapska?

21        A.   Yes, before we received the ultimatum.

22        Q.   Referring to this ultimatum which is described in your statement,

23     you state that, at paragraph 13, Boro Tomic arrived with it.  Did you see

24     the written ultimatum?

25        A.   I did.  I personally received it.

Page 2114

 1        Q.   And was it handwritten or typed?

 2        A.   Handwritten.  And there was a signature on it.

 3        Q.   And whose signature was on it?

 4        A.   Major Slobodan Barjaktarevic.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Apologies.  Could we get 65 ter 418.1 on the

 7     screen.

 8        Q.   Do -- do you recognise the document that you see on the screen?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   And what is it?

11        A.   Yes, that's that.

12        Q.   Do I understand that's the ultimatum?

13        A.   Yes, that's the ultimatum, right.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, a -- a version of the ultimatum was

15     admitted into evidence yesterday but it was somewhat difficult to read

16     because it had been sent by fax.  So we've located this version which has

17     the same handwriting, and we would suggest that this could be linked in

18     e-court to the already admitted version, and this way we wouldn't

19     interfere with the already admitted version but we would have a clear

20     version in B/C/S for the witness to read.  If that's suitable to

21     Your Honours, and if there's no objection from the Defence.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If you could repeat the exhibit number,

24     Mr. Gillett, then we will do as you ask.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.  The 65 ter number of the document currently

Page 2115

 1     on the screen is 418.1.  The exhibit number of the other version that was

 2     admitted is P316.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is linked now.  Thank you.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Mr. Rukavina, if we could look at the second paragraph of the

 7     document in front of you, just before the numbered points start -- sorry,

 8     the second paragraph before the numbered points begin.

 9        A.   Mm-hm.

10             MR. GILLETT:  If we could zoom out a little bit.  Yes.

11        Q.   Now, it states that the residents of your village of Bapska have

12     been peaceful so far.  Is that correct, that the people of Bapska had

13     been peaceful prior to receiving this ultimatum?

14        A.   They were peaceful.  They did not provoke anybody, and they did

15     not instigate anybody to do things.

16        Q.   And what did the JNA threaten to do if you didn't comply with

17     this ultimatum?

18        A.   According to them, they would eliminate us from the face of the

19     earth.  They said that they -- that we would no longer exist on the map

20     of the earth.

21        Q.   And would it have made a difference if you had complied with the

22     ultimatum and handed over the weapons that you had?

23        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think that things would have been

24     different.  If anything, they would have been worse.

25        Q.   Why would things have been worse?

Page 2116

 1        A.   Because they would have freer hands to commit the same kinds of

 2     crimes they had committed in the other villages.

 3        Q.   Now, in your statement, you explain how, after receiving this

 4     ultimatum, you had negotiations with Major Slobodan Barjaktarevic and

 5     that during those negotiations, you asked whether the JNA could protect

 6     the village of Bapska.  How did he respond to your proposal?

 7        A.   That's correct.  I asked him that.  And he answered me that he

 8     did not have any such possibility, that his hands were tied.

 9        Q.   Could the JNA have protected Bapska from the Serb paramilitaries

10     if they wanted to?

11        A.   I believe so.  It was up to them whether they were willing to do

12     that or not.

13        Q.   Then why did he refuse to do so?

14        A.   Most probably because they were not that well connected.  There

15     was no link between them.  And let me explain.  Between paramilitaries

16     and the so-called JNA.

17        Q.   Why would the lack of connection between them prevent the JNA

18     from stopping the paramilitaries attacking Bapska?

19        A.   I don't know.  I was not present.  I was not one of them.

20        Q.   What weapons or arms did the JNA have?

21        A.   A range, from infantry weapons to artillery, and even planes.

22     The whole range, the artillery included mortars, and tanks, and cannons.

23        Q.   And what weapons did the paramilitaries have?

24        A.   They mostly had light weapons, automatic rifles, Zoljas.  The

25     kind of things that they could carry.

Page 2117

 1        Q.   So I'm trying to understand why the JNA, with these weapons,

 2     could not have prevented the paramilitaries from attacking Bapska.

 3        A.   Most probably because their objective was to drive us away.  They

 4     wanted to create a territory where they could be stationed and left in

 5     peace to prepare for further attacks on Vukovar.

 6        Q.   Now, you described the ensuing attack on Bapska in your

 7     statement, and you -- you go on at paragraphs 23 and 24 of your statement

 8     to describe the evacuation of women and children to the Kordos forest

 9     after the JNA started shelling on 4 October 1991.  How many women and

10     children were in that group that were evacuated?

11        A.   I can't tell you exactly.  It was a large group, in any case.

12        Q.   Was it in the tens or the hundreds?

13        A.   Several hundreds.

14        Q.   Were any members of this group armed?

15        A.   No.  There were only elderly people, women, and children in that

16     group, and none of them were armed.

17        Q.   And you state that the JNA was shelling the convoy of women and

18     children.  How did you know that?

19        A.   I know because my wife was in that convoy, and she told me

20     everything later, when we met.

21        Q.   Turning now to paragraph 25 of your statement.  That is page 4 in

22     the B/C/S; page 5 in the English.

23             You described the tanks coming into Bapska and destroying a

24     number of buildings.  On what day did this occur?

25        A.   The attack took place on the 4th.  That's when the shelling

Page 2118

 1     started, and they entered Bapska on the 5th of October.

 2        Q.   And you state that they targeted the church tower.  Was this a

 3     Catholic or Orthodox church?

 4        A.   It was a Catholic church.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 06227 placed on the

 6     monitor, please.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise this location?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   And what is it?

10        A.   The church in Bapska.  But that's not what it looked like on that

11     day.

12        Q.   And what damage was done to the church when it was attacked?

13        A.   They fired at the belfry, and the bells were scattered all over

14     the place.  And a shell -- another shell hit the church itself.

15        Q.   And has it been rebuilt since then?

16        A.   You can see from this picture that it has been repaired since.

17             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, could we have that -- we would tender

18     that -- that document, 06227.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P325.  Thank

22     you.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now have document 06228 placed on the

24     monitor, please.

25        Q.   Do you recognise this aerial view?

Page 2119

 1        A.   Yes, that's the village of Bapska.

 2        Q.   And in your statement, you describe how the JNA tanks targeted

 3     the bank.  Is it possible to mark where the bank is located in Bapska?

 4             MR. GILLETT:  And if the witness could please have assistance to

 5     do that.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can mark it.

 7             MR. GILLETT:

 8        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Could you mark that with an A.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Could we erase that and try again and put an A.  Sorry, my

11     apologies.  I should have specified earlier.

12        A.   All right.

13        Q.   Could we mark an A where the bank is located?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And could you please now mark a B where the church is located.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And in your statement, you mention that a number of houses and

18     other buildings were -- were destroyed.  Could you put Xs where you

19     recall there being any buildings or houses that were destroyed, apart

20     from the ones you've already pointed to.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And did you see those houses where you've placed Xs?  Did you see

23     that they had been destroyed or hit by weapons?

24        A.   I did.  And we even tried to put out the fire on some of them.

25     They had been torched.

Page 2120

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would tender that for admission.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P326.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, was there a military threat to the Serb forces coming from

 7     the church?

 8        A.   No, there was nothing there.

 9        Q.   What about from the bank?

10        A.   Only the safe box.  But I don't know whether there was anything

11     in the safe.

12        Q.   Sorry, was there a threat from the safe box, or -- why would that

13     present a threat?

14        A.   I thought perhaps there was money in the safe, nothing else.

15        Q.   And -- and why would that be significant, if there was money in

16     the safe?

17        A.   It's not significant.  Perhaps I thought that would be the reason

18     why they were shooting.

19        Q.   And final question on this map, was there any threat from the

20     column of people that went to the Kordos forest that you said were

21     shelled?  Was there any threat to the JNA to -- from that?

22        A.   I don't know what threat there could have been.  There were only

23     elderly people, women and children.

24        Q.   Sir, at paragraph 29 of your statement, you mention that a group

25     of the inhabitants from Bapska left to Sid, and this was around the same

Page 2121

 1     time as the attack on Bapska.

 2             Why did this group of people go to Sid?

 3        A.   A man, Croat, came to Bapska and said that people could leave via

 4     Sid, via Bosnia, and get to Croatia.  People believed him and set out

 5     towards Sid, but they didn't go far because they ended up in the sports

 6     hall.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that the Prosecution goes to put some

 9     questions to the witness which are not in his statement and in summary,

10     witness summary.  And we are informed about this line -- this information

11     last night at 8.45 -- 8 -- yes, 8.45.

12             So I would object to this line of questioning.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, it is correct that there is

14     information in the proofing note that has been provided, that I intend to

15     ask the witness about it.  This relates to the information in

16     paragraph 29 of his statement, where he refers to the group of people who

17     went to Sid and were detained in the partisan sports hall, and we wanted

18     to inquire to what happened in these people as a follow-up to what is in

19     his statement.  And we provided notice of the information that came out

20     in the proofing session on this issue.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, what happened to the people who were, as you say in your

24     statement, detained in this partisan sports hall in Sid?

25        A.   Some managed to get out with the help of their friends and get to

Page 2122

 1     Croatia via Bosnia; whereas some people were turned back to Bapska as a

 2     human shield going before military units.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  This part of statement about the shield

 5     has not mentioned anywhere in the witness statement and in witness --

 6     witness summary.  And we are only informed about it from --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The speaker is kindly requested to generate

 8     less noise while speaking.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- the proofing note delivered last night at

10     8.45.  We have no time to investigate these allegations.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could you please read the

12     interpreter's note in the transcript.

13             You seem to make paper -- noise with the paper.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I was not aware that I was so loud.

15             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gillett.

17             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, President.

18             If I could just add that I have already mentioned that this was a

19     follow-up question from what is in paragraph 29 of the statement.  And

20     the Defence will almost certainly be cross-examining on Thursday, so I

21     think they will have a bit of extra time to prepare for this.  I have

22     asked the questions that I intended to ask him about this subject.  I'm

23     not going to be delving into further detail about it.  So that is the sum

24     total of that issue.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

Page 2123

 1             MR. GILLETT:

 2        Q.   Now, turning to paragraph 31 of your statement, which is on

 3     page 5 in the B/C/S and English, you state that paramilitary troops

 4     killed four people in Bapska on 15 October.  Were these victims military

 5     or civilian people?

 6        A.   All of them were civilians.

 7        Q.   You also state that the paramilitary groups burned five houses.

 8     How do you know they burned those houses?

 9        A.   Because some people from Bapska remained in the village, and,

10     later, when we got to Ilok, I heard about that.

11        Q.   Later in your statement, at paragraph 35, you state that after

12     escaping from Bapska, ten of the -- after you had escaped from Bapska,

13     ten of the inhabitants were killed.  I'm trying to understand:  Were

14     these ten people that were killed separate from the four that were killed

15     that you mention at paragraph 31 of your statement?

16        A.   That's correct.  That's a separate group.

17        Q.   And were these people civilians or military?

18        A.   Also, all of them were civilians.

19        Q.   In the same paragraph, you state that 80 houses were destroyed.

20     What ethnicity were the owners of those houses?

21        A.   All Croats.

22        Q.   Now, aside from the specific references in paragraph 35 to

23     killing and destruction of property, were -- after you had left or

24     escaped from Bapska, were the inhabitants mistreated in any other ways?

25        A.   That's right.  They were mistreated, abused.  They were driven in

Page 2124

 1     the trailer of a tractor and tumbled.  Their movement was restricted.

 2     They had to report every day.  They were mistreated in many other ways.

 3        Q.   Did they have to carry out work assignments?

 4        A.   Some of the younger people who remained were rounded up, all of

 5     them, and taken to dig trenches for the army.

 6        Q.   And where were those trenches located?

 7        A.   They were taken towards a place called Lipovac, and that's where

 8     they did the digging.

 9        Q.   And was this a safe activity to carry out?

10        A.   Certainly not.  It couldn't have been safe.  Croats were ahead of

11     you; behind you were Serbs.  It -- it could not have been safe.

12        Q.   And when you say "Croats were ahead of you; behind you were

13     Serbs," why would that make it unsafe for the people digging trenches?

14        A.   Well, if they don't kill -- get killed from one side, they can

15     get killed from the other side.

16             MR. GILLETT:  I see we're right about the time that we're

17     scheduled to finish and I'm about to turn to a couple of documents, so

18     maybe we should break here, if it suits Your Honours, or I'm happy to try

19     in the remaining 30 seconds.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are at that time exactly, Mr. Gillett.  Thank

21     you.

22             Mr. Witness, this is the end of today's hearing.  Your testimony

23     did not come to an end, so that you will have come back tomorrow morning

24     at 9.00 -- oh, I'm sorry.  Thursday, at 9.00.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]


Page 2125

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is it Thursday afternoon?  Okay.  My mistake

 2     again.  It's Thursday afternoon, Mr. Witness.

 3             So I remind you that you are still on your oath.  That means that

 4     you can't discuss your testimony with anybody, and you can't talk at all

 5     to any of the parties.

 6             Do you understand?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Understood.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The court usher will escort you out

 9     of the courtroom now.  Thank you very much.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

13                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

15                           December, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.