1 Thursday, 24 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, would you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
14 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton; intern,
15 Agnieszka Bugaj; and case manager, Thomas Laugel.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Chris Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 The witness may be brought in. Closed session, please. Thank
23 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 Ma'am, you have protective measures, pseudonym and voice
14 distortion and face distortion -- no voice. Okay, face distortion.
15 Pseudonym and face distortion. Therefore, we won't mention your name and
16 we will address you as "Witness," simply as "Witness." You are about to
17 read the solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell
18 the truth. I must point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself
19 to the penalties of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful
20 information to the Tribunal.
21 Could you now read the solemn declaration the usher will give
22 you, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: GH-107
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness, Ms. Clanton.
5 MS. CLANTON: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MS. CLANTON: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I ask the court usher
8 to please show the witness 65 ter 06382, not to be broadcast. And this
9 is --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: For the personal data of the witness, wouldn't it
11 be better to go into private session, Ms. Clanton?
12 MS. CLANTON: Yes.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Because you will probably ask some questions
14 about her career and so on?
15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, this is simply the pseudonym sheet.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, I know, but afterwards, wouldn't you ask
17 some questions that would better be asked in private session?
18 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I was going to not do that
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So pseudonym sheet, not broadcast. Can we
21 do that?
22 Examination by Ms. Clanton:
23 Q. Ma'am, the Court has ordered certain protective measures with
24 respect to you and your evidence, including a pseudonym and image
25 distortion. If you could please look at the pseudonym sheet that appears
1 in front of you. Without reading anything on the sheet in front of you,
2 can you tell us if it is your name that appears.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is
5 that your date of birth?
6 A. It is.
7 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I'd like to tender the pseudonym
8 sheet, 06382, into evidence under seal, please.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1018. Thank
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 MS. CLANTON: Can I ask the court officer to please bring up
14 65 ter number 02389 at this time, not to be broadcast. I would also like
15 to ask the usher to provide a hard copy to the witness, please.
16 Q. Witness, did you give a statement to representatives of the ICTY
17 in June 1999 in Osijek?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you recognise this as your statement?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If you could please look at your screen at the English version in
22 front of you and tell me if you recognise the signature at the bottom of
23 the page.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Whose signature is that?
1 A. Mine.
2 Q. And before testifying today, did you have a chance to review a
3 translation of this statement in your own language?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. CLANTON: And for the next question I'd like to go into
6 closed session, please -- private session.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
8 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Ma'am, with the corrections that you've just indicated, are you
20 satisfied that the information contained in your written statement is
21 accurate and correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And again, with the corrections we have just made, if you were
24 asked the same questions today, would you provide the same answers?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And finally, now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you
2 affirm the accuracy and the truthfulness of your statement?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would
5 like to tender 65 ter 2389 and the associated exhibit 2388 into evidence
6 under seal. We've also prepared the redacted version of the statement,
7 which is 65 ter 02389.1, which may also be admitted. The associated
8 exhibit is at tab 3.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: The confidential statement shall be assigned
11 Exhibit Number P1019, admitted under seal. The public redacted version
12 of the statement shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1019.1. And the
13 associated exhibit, 65 ter document 2388 shall be Exhibit Number 1020.
14 Thank you.
15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, the associated exhibit should also be
16 admitted under seal, please.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we do that, Mr. Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 MS. CLANTON:
21 Q. Ma'am, if you feel that answering any question would reveal your
22 identity, you may indicate your concerns about answering that question
23 publicly, that is, in open session.
24 Before the war began, what was the ethnic composition of Klisa?
25 A. 10 per cent Croat, 90 per cent Serb.
1 Q. And how far from Klisa is the town of Celije?
2 A. I would not know now exactly how many kilometres, but it's not
3 far by road.
4 Q. What happened in Celije in the summer of 1991?
5 A. We saw thick smoke, a lot of smoke, and we knew something
6 terrible had happened.
7 Q. What was the ethnic composition of Celije?
8 A. It was 100 per cent Croat.
9 Q. What happened to the Croats of Celije?
10 A. Some were killed and some managed to escape.
11 Q. What impact did this destruction of Celije have on you and the
12 local Croat population in Klisa?
13 A. That caused great fear.
14 Q. And in Klisa in 1991, were there any changes that you observed in
15 respect of the people who you saw in the village?
16 A. When the troops started coming in, our local people changed
17 completely. It was not the same population as before.
18 Q. These troops that came in, what was their ethnicity?
19 A. Serbs.
20 Q. What information did you hear about where they came from?
21 A. It was said they came from Belgrade, Kragujevac, Nis.
22 Q. And how were they dressed?
23 A. A variety of uniforms because there were all sorts of troops, the
24 Yugoslav People's Army and those paramilitary units.
25 Q. And a moment ago you mentioned the Serbs who were from Klisa.
1 How were these local Serbs dressing at this time?
2 A. The men wore those military uniforms.
3 Q. Did you hear that the local Serbs who wore the military uniforms
4 belonged to or were linked with any armed units in the area?
5 A. Yes, because they were all together. They went around together.
6 They drove around in cars together.
7 Q. Have you heard of Arkan and his men or Arkan and his volunteers?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you hear that the local Serbs in uniform had any connections
10 with these units?
11 MR. GOSNELL: Objection, leading.
12 MS. CLANTON:
13 Q. What did you hear in the village about who the local Serbs were
14 associated with?
15 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, objection. The -- actually, the
16 witness's potential answer has now been contaminated by the leading
17 question, hasn't it? So I object --
18 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I can ask the question --
19 MR. GOSNELL: I object to both the questions and I would suggest
20 that even a neutral answer [sic] now is going to contaminate the answer.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
22 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do carefully.
24 MS. CLANTON:
25 Q. Witness, what did you observe about the behaviour of these local
1 Serbs and Serbs who had just come to the region?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where were they meeting?
4 A. Well, they got together and some moved into the houses of Croats
5 who had left, and others had a building that used to be a co-operative or
6 a warehouse.
7 Q. Do you know if they went to any other towns?
8 A. Well, they drove around everywhere. They did not really walk
9 about. They drove around, but where they went I wouldn't know.
10 Q. Do you know the names of any of the towns where they went?
11 A. Those Serbian villages around -- between us and Vukovar, so they
12 probably went to those Serbian villages.
13 Q. Can you provide us with any names?
14 A. Tenja.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I'd like to move into private session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 2744-2746 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask that 65 ter 06373, a
23 photograph, be placed in front of the witness. This is at tab 4.
24 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise the road and the building in this
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know the name of the road?
3 A. It's Vukovarska Street.
4 Q. And what town is this in?
5 A. Klisa.
6 Q. And the gate and the building that are visible on the left side,
7 do you recognise those buildings?
8 A. I can't see any buildings depicted in this photo.
9 Q. Do you see the gate?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you know who owns the property that is behind the gate?
7 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So the exhibit is admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1021. Thank
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 MS. CLANTON: I think we need to go back into private session,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 2751 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 MS. CLANTON: I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Clanton.
9 Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
11 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Mr. Hadzic in these
14 proceedings and I have just a very few questions for you today. If any
15 of my questions aren't clear, please feel free to ask me to elaborate or
16 clarify. Do you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 65 ter 00978, please. And this was
19 on tab 7 of the OTP's original exhibit list. And I'm interested, in
20 particular, in zooming in on the paragraph immediately after the first
21 full subheading, and that subheading reads:
22 "The arming of the Serbs, barricades."
23 And that's on page 2 of the English at the very top of the page,
24 and in the B/C/S it should be down there starting at the bottom of the
25 left-hand column. Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
1 Q. Now, ma'am, I just want to ask you about some details surrounding
2 what was going in Klisa before this event that you've been talking about
3 today. And here it says that:
4 "Klisa village, next to the Osijek airport, is a village with
5 12 Croatian and more than 100 Serbian houses. Even though in Trpinja -
6 the neighbouring village is, just like Klisa, on the road to Vukovar -
7 barricades were set up as early as in May, the Serbs from Klisa delayed
8 setting them up until 24 August."
9 Now, as far as you can recall, is that correct, that barricades
10 were not set up in Klisa until the 24th of August?
11 A. I really can't remember any of the dates.
12 Q. And there's an individual who is reported as having made a
13 statement in this article and it's someone named Josip Horvat. Do you
14 know Josip Horvat?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He is reported here as saying at some point that I saw -- and I
18 "'I saw that the Serbs were arming themselves and where they
19 unloaded and stored automatic weapons. When I told this to our Guards at
20 the airport, they replied several days later that they had received an
21 order from Osijek that they must not disarm the Serbs ...'"
22 Now, what I want to ask you about this is whether you know
23 whether there were Guards present at the Osijek airport at any time, May,
24 June, July, August 1991?
25 A. I don't know, I don't.
1 Q. Do you know whether there were Guards or any armed Croatian
2 forces at all anywhere in the area of Klisa, in the vicinity?
3 A. In Klisa, the only armed people were the Serb army. I don't know
4 about anybody else.
5 Q. And when is it that the Serb army arrived there?
6 A. Sometime after Celije. Celije was set on fire and then things
7 started happening gradually. I really don't know when that happened in
9 Q. Well, a little bit further down in this article it says:
10 "Three days after the barricades were set up in Klisa, the
11 Yugoslav Army began to arrive with tanks, personnel carriers, guns, and
12 mortars. And on the fifth day, there were more than 700 reservists in
13 the village."
14 Now, you've already testified about the arrival of the JNA, but
15 in terms of numbers, do you have any idea whether that's -- that number
16 would be correct, approximately? Were there 700 reservists in the
17 village by that time?
18 A. Yes, yes. The village was full of troops. I couldn't believe my
19 eyes when I saw so many people there.
20 MR. GOSNELL: May we have P311, please, which is tab 3 of the
21 Prosecution's original list. I didn't expect that marking to be there.
22 That's not on the version of P311 that I have. In any event, I don't
23 think it's important, but perhaps we could zoom in somewhat on the area
24 around the -- what's marked there as the Osijek airport. Just a little
25 bit, maybe one click, maybe one more. That's perfect. Thank you very
2 Q. Now, ma'am, here on this map we do see Klisa. And is that an
3 accurate representation of where Klisa is --
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And can you help us understand, to the best of your recollection,
6 after the arrival of the JNA troops, where was the -- if there was at
7 all, where was the boundary line approximately between where the Serb
8 forces were and where the Croat forces were? Can you describe that for
10 A. Osijek, near Nemetin, this is where the Croats were. Tenja was
11 in the Serb hands, Klisa as well, Bobota, Pacetin, Bijelo Brdo -- now you
12 have moved the map. Can you leave it like this? Thank you. Serbs held
13 Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Trpinja, Silas. They burned down Celije. Laslovo
14 was also occupied. Please slow down, don't move the map so fast.
15 Antunovac was a Croatian village, it was occupied. Tenja was a Serb
16 village. Antunovac was a Croatian village but occupied.
17 Q. Ma'am, if I could just assist. I think there's a problem with
18 the screen because it seems to be focusing in when you touch the screen.
19 So perhaps what we can do is zoom back out a little bit.
20 MR. GOSNELL: I'm not sure if the Registrar can help and just
21 zoom in a little bit more up in the top half of the document -- yes,
22 that's perfect. Let's just leave it there.
23 Q. And, ma'am, if you could just describe that again but this time
24 without touching the screen in front of you, it will be easier.
25 A. The Serb army occupied Tenja. Klisa was occupied. Vera was a
1 purely Serb village. I can't see Bobota here, it's on the other side,
2 but I'm not touching anything. Antunovac was a Croatian village, people
3 fled from it. And then Bijelo Brdo was a predominantly Serb village.
4 People fled from Sarvas.
5 Q. So at this time was Tenja within Serb territory or was it in
6 Croat territory?
7 A. It was Croatian territory; however, it was occupied by the Serbs.
8 Q. Do you mean by that that there was some kind of a boundary
9 between Klisa and Tenja where there were opposing Serb and Croat forces
10 but that --
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Perhaps you could explain that a little further because
13 I'm not sure that I understand.
14 A. Let me put it this way. The Serbs occupied Tenja. Klisa was
15 also occupied, and they co-operated, Serbs from Tenja and Serbs from
16 Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Silas, and all the other surrounding places, they
18 Q. So would it be right to say that at this time, in
19 October/November 1991, that Serb forces held Tenja?
20 A. It was occupied. Tenja was under the Serb occupation.
21 Q. And do you know whether there was any infiltration by Croatian
22 forces through that front line, through -- into the area that was held by
23 Serb forces?
24 A. I don't know that. I really wouldn't know.
25 Q. And you were asked the question by the Prosecutor whether your
1 husband was co-operating with or procured supplies for Croat forces, and
2 you said the answer to that was no. Do you know whether there was anyone
3 in Klisa village who was assisting Croat forces?
4 A. No, no. Nobody in Klisa had any weapons or any assistance. We
5 were a minority there. There were just a few Croat houses.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, about the map, the unmarked version
7 of this map is, as the Registrar kindly told me, 65 ter number 6329.
8 Wouldn't it be appropriate to have that one -- I don't know if we still
9 need it on the screen, but that we -- that you would tender this one
10 rather than work on a marked version.
11 MR. GOSNELL: I think that's quite a good idea, Mr. President.
12 In fact, in order to make the record absolutely clear, it's been
13 described well, but nonetheless, to make the record clear I think I'd
14 like to bring up 06329.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: There it is.
16 MR. GOSNELL: And if we could zoom in to approximately where we
17 had the zoom with the other map. I think that's good.
18 Q. Madam Witness, could I kindly ask you, with the assistance of the
19 usher, to take a pen and mark on the map where it is that there was the
20 limit between Serb forces and Croat forces in November 1991.
21 A. I could not know exactly. I wasn't there. All I know is that
22 they entered Osijek. How far, though, I don't know. They entered
23 Osijek, but how far they went in depth I wouldn't know. I know they held
24 Tenja, the Serbs, but in the territory between Osijek and Tenja, how far
25 they went I don't know.
1 Q. Well, instead of having you mark specifically, because it seems
2 that you don't know -- you don't have the answer to the question with
3 that level of precision, so let's not have you mark, but let me just ask
4 you a couple of more specific questions. You've already said that
5 Antunovac -- you said that according to your information, according to
6 what you know -- knew, Antunovac in November 1991 was in Croat hands;
8 A. I don't know the exact date when Antunovac was occupied. I know
9 it was occupied, but I can't tell you the date.
10 Q. Well, in the fall of 1991, leaving aside any precise or specific
11 date, was Antunovac in Croat hands?
12 A. I don't know the dates. I can't tell you. It developed in such
13 a way that I know they occupied it, but I can't you when. I'm not sure.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Witness, who do you refer to when you say
15 "they occupied"?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that map. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 And I won't tender it in any fashion.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 MR. GOSNELL:
22 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you mention in your witness statement at
23 page 1 of the English -- at page 2 of the English and at page 3 of the
24 English, a certain Rajko Mizdrak, and he's mentioned several times. And
25 last night we received information from the Prosecution that on the basis
1 of their conversations with you, they understood that Rajko Mizdrak was
2 training at Arkan's training centre. Is that correct?
3 A. There was talk about that. People said that. I wasn't there to
4 see it, but people said that's true.
13 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, could you repeat that for the public
22 record, please.
23 MR. GOSNELL:
24 Q. Madam Witness, thank you very much for coming to testify.
25 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
3 MS. CLANTON: No, Your Honour.
4 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 Madam Witness, this brings your testimony to an end. Thank you
16 for coming to assist the Tribunal with your testimony. You are now
17 released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey back home. The
18 court usher will escort you out of court in closed session.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [Closed session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
4 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. Just to suggest that the next
5 witness is ready. It involves a bit of a personnel change within the
6 team, and it's possible we could take the break a few minutes early and
7 come back after the break, then, and be all situated for the next
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: By all means, Mr. Stringer, we have to take the
11 break for the voice distortion that this witness has. So we'll take the
12 break and come back at 11.00. Court adjourned.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.
16 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. There is one matter that we
17 wish to raise before the next witness is brought in. If we could go into
18 private session briefly.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
20 [Private session]
10 [Closed session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Witness, as you have protective measures, we will refer to
24 you as -- simply as "Witness" or "Mr. Witness," just to avoid mentioning
25 your name. You should also be aware of the shielding of your identity
1 while in open session, and whenever you need to say something that could
2 reveal your identity, you can just indicate to us that we have to go into
3 private session.
4 Now, you are going to read the solemn declaration, by which
5 witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I have to point out to
6 you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury
7 should you give untruthful or misleading information to the Tribunal.
8 Can I now ask you to read the solemn declaration the usher will give to
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: GH-103
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness.
17 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, President, Your Honours.
18 Could we please get 65 ter document 6380 on the screen but not
19 publicly broadcast.
20 Examination by Mr. Gillett:
21 Q. Sir, do you see your name and date of birth on the sheet in front
22 of you?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. GILLETT: Could we admit that into evidence, please.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1022, admitted
2 under seal. Thank you.
3 MR. GILLETT: Could we now get 65 ter document 3258 on the
4 screen, please. And at this point, could I ask for some assistance to
5 hand the witness a hard copy of his statement as we proceed through it.
6 Thank you.
7 Q. Looking at the statement, sir, do you recognise this -- sorry,
8 firstly, did you give a statement to the representatives of the Office of
9 the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May 2012?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. And do you recognise this to be the statement that you gave?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And were you given the opportunity to read the statement in your
14 own language before you signed it?
15 A. I was.
16 Q. And this week in The Hague, have you again been given the
17 opportunity to read your statement in your own language?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Now, I understand there are some corrections to be made to the
20 statement and I'm going to go through those. Firstly, at paragraph 18,
21 the last sentence refers to as many as 4.000 shells hitting Vukovar
22 Hospital per day. And I understand that this figure is too high.
23 So my question is: What would you like to say about the
24 intensity of the shelling of the Vukovar Hospital?
25 A. Well, a couple of thousand fell daily, up to 2.000. I made a
1 little mistake there because when I read I was not able to see whether it
2 was my mistake or the interpreter's mistake, but it was not 4.000. It
3 was up to 2.000 a day.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, can I ask you to talk slowly so as
5 to give the interpreters the opportunity to follow correctly. Thank you.
6 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Next, is it correct that at paragraph 19 of your statement you
8 wanted to remove the terms "the warehouse" so that the sentence would
10 "Those who had received medical assistance, they were moved to
11 the nuclear shelter in Borovo Komerc to make room for new patients."
12 A. Yes, that's right. That was a technical error. It should have
13 read "shelter," not "warehouse." I only noticed when I re-read the
15 Q. Next, in relation to paragraph 30, I understand you wanted to
16 correct the reference to Captain Sasa arriving with two Chetniks called
17 Nedjeljko Vojnovic and Bogdan Kuzmic. Is it correct that there were two
18 Chetniks with Captain Sasa in addition to Nedjeljko Vojnovic and
19 Bogdan Kuzmic?
20 A. There were two Chetniks together with Captain Sasa. And this
21 Vojnovic and - what's the name of the other one? - Kuzmic, they were
22 employees of the hospital, except that Kuzmic was wearing a uniform
23 because already in June or July he had left the hospital and was no
24 longer working there.
25 Q. Thank you. Other than that, are there any more changes that need
1 to be made to the statement?
2 A. I don't think so.
3 Q. And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if you were asked about these same matters today, would you
6 give the same answers?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, we tender the 65 ter statement 3258.
9 We also have a public redacted version, 3258.1, that we would tender at
10 this time.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before we do that, Mr. Gillett, there is kind of
12 a problem with the annex to the statement which are a series of
13 photographs marked by the witness, and they're uploaded in e-court in
14 black and white. Markings almost invisible. We were wondering whether
15 you have the coloured version available.
16 MR. GILLETT: As always, you've predicted the next topic.
17 Indeed, these are the associated exhibits, and as you observed, the
18 copies that came out were in black and white. We've also -- have the
19 originals that he marked in a previous case in colour that we included on
20 the exhibit list, and we've included an additional list that we made,
21 which is 03258.2, which links each of the coloured versions that he
22 originally marked in previous proceedings with each of the pages of the
23 black and white photos that were annexed to his current statement so that
24 you can easily tell which one is which. So we would ask that they're all
25 admitted for the interests of simplicity.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: And you're sure that now on your exhibit list
2 there is a coloured version of these photographs? Because when we looked
3 into it, there was a black and white version of the photos in it with no
4 markings at all.
5 MR. GILLETT: There should indeed be a colour version. And, for
6 example, if we went to 65 ter 02620, I believe that that will be a colour
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have that on the screen just to make
10 MR. GILLETT: I believe the markings are clearer to see on this
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
13 Sorry. The statement is admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The confidential statement shall be assigned
15 Exhibit Number P1023, and the public redacted version shall be assigned
16 Exhibit Number P1023.1. Thank you.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. GILLETT: And I understand that in the usual procedure, with
19 the court officer we'll address the associated exhibits. And if there's
20 any more information required about the coloured versions of the photos,
21 we can provide that.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. GILLETT: Much obliged.
24 Q. Now, sir, turning to the substance of your statement, I'm going
25 to ask you some additional questions about the shelling of Vukovar.
1 Firstly, at paragraph 10 of the statement you say that in August 1991,
2 the JNA shelled civilian targets in Vukovar and that your apartment was
3 hit. Aside from your apartment, what other civilian locations were hit
4 at this time?
5 A. That was a settlement of four-storey and two-storey buildings.
6 They bombed that from the air. My building was hit and the building
7 facing mine, that one burnt down almost completely; and at the other end
8 of the street another building was hit.
9 Q. Were you given any form of warning before these shells hit your
10 building and the buildings around it?
11 A. No, we had no warning and we were not expecting it because they
12 were targeting only military installations or those of strategic
13 importance, the silo, the castle, and the secondary school because that's
14 where the members of the Croatian Home Guard were located.
15 Q. In your statement you say prior to this shelling in mid-August,
16 they had been targeting military locations and that this was the first
17 targeting of civilian locations. And my question, to clarify: Why did
18 you not expect a warning before there would be shelling of civilian
20 A. We were not expecting it. We thought they would not target
21 civilian buildings, but that started at Mitnica itself. They started
22 targeting civilian buildings in Mitnica and then all over the town. We
23 were really unprepared. We thought they would not target civilians. We
24 thought they would only concentrate on the location where the members of
25 the Croatian Home Guards Corps were.
1 Q. And during the attack on Vukovar, while it was being shelled, did
2 the inhabitants try to flee the city?
3 A. Some tried, but it was difficult. You see, we were encircled.
4 All around Vukovar were Serbian villages and there were roadblocks and
5 barricades there. It was almost impossible to leave Vukovar.
6 Q. Now, in your statement at paragraph 26 and the preceding
7 paragraphs, you described the JNA and paramilitaries arriving at the
8 Vukovar Hospital, and specifically at paragraph 26 you describe realising
9 that you were going to have to leave Vukovar and being upset. Now, why
10 did you have to leave the city in which you had grown up?
13 can go where they want to, to Croatia or Serbia. I was very sorry to
14 even contemplate leaving my town because I grew up there, I lived there
15 all my life, and I was very sad.
16 MR. GILLETT: Can we get a redaction at page 37, line 5 to 6,
17 about the supervisor.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, can we? Thank you.
19 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
20 Q. And you mentioned you were sorry to have to leave the town of
21 Vukovar, but why did you have to leave the town of Vukovar? Why couldn't
22 you stay there?
23 A. We were told that nobody could stay, only Serbs could stay,
24 employees of the hospital of Serbian ethnicity.
25 Q. And who did this message come from or who was telling you you
1 were no longer allowed to stay in Vukovar?
2 A. Sljivancanin.
3 Q. And who is Sljivancanin?
4 A. Major. Veselin Sljivancanin, major, I think, by rank.
5 Q. Turning again to your description of the JNA and military --
6 paramilitaries arriving at the hospital --
7 MR. GILLETT: And could we go into private session for this next
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 2772 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
15 MR. GILLETT:
16 Q. Moving to paragraph 47 of your statement, in this paragraph you
17 mention that while you were on the bus at the JNA barracks and while this
18 threatening behaviour was occurring, one local Chetnik said that:
19 "The ones that Neso had put on the list cannot be saved. Things
20 will not end well for them."
21 What did he mean that things would not end up well for these
23 A. Well, that they would kill them.
24 Q. And how did he know this, that they would kill them?
25 A. You know, I suppose that all those who were in the barracks,
1 those paramilitaries, they all knew what would happen. I can't be sure
2 of that, but that's what I assume and eventually that's what happened.
3 Q. And to clarify, when you say "would kill them" and "that's what
4 would happen," which killing are you talking about?
5 A. Well, what do you mean? What are you asking me? For example,
6 when we saw that list -- and I will -- I believe that we will come back
7 to that later. When we were on our way back to the hospital, they had
8 already killed one of the hospital staff, a man who had worked in the
10 Q. What I'm asking, to clarify, is when you mentioned they would
11 kill them, I'm asking -- and you said that this is what happened, where
12 were the victims killed, aside from this one individual, I'm talking
13 about the group.
14 A. That person was killed in the hospital, Ivan Bozak. We already
15 said that. He was killed in the hospital.
16 Q. Sorry, not the individual, but all the other people, where were
17 they killed?
18 A. At Ovcara. They were taken from the barracks to Ovcara. They
19 were all executed there. Perhaps only five or six managed to save
20 themselves. I know some of their names, I can tell you who they were.
21 Q. It's okay for the meanwhile. Now, during proofing yesterday you
22 were shown a video and I'm going to ask you some questions about some
23 parts of that video.
24 MR. GILLETT: Could we now get video 04892 on the screen. And
25 the first clip is going to be at 0 minutes and 43 seconds through to
1 0 minutes and 47 seconds.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. GILLETT:
4 Q. Do you recognise any of the people in this shot?
5 A. I recognise Mr. Veselin Sljivancanin.
6 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to 51 minutes, 54 seconds, to
7 51 minutes and 59 seconds.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. GILLETT: Can we pause there.
10 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this picture?
11 A. I recognise a few of them. Those were all civilians from the
12 Mitnica. I also lived there which is why I know all of them well.
13 Q. And what are they doing?
14 A. They are walking to a collection centre, as far as I know.
15 Pilip Karaula was its commander and the other one was Zdravko Komsic.
16 They negotiated with the international community - I suppose that the
17 guy, the blond guy, that was standing next to the community [as
18 interpreted], came from the international community - and with the army
19 and they agreed a surrender. And all the civilians from the Mitnica were
20 to be protected. They are now walking to a collection centre and from
21 there they were all transferred to Mitrovica. I even saw them leaving.
22 MR. GILLETT: If we could now play clip 52 minutes and 12 seconds
23 through to 53 minutes and 18 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I have nothing left. But please be
1 honest with me! Tell me honestly, don't say the things that are not
2 true. Tell me only the truth.
3 "We are innocent.
4 "What are the conditions like in the town?
5 "[In English] The town is totally broken. We have nothing. The
6 houses are burned ... the hospital ... we did not have for three months,
7 no food, no water, no medical things. They have killed all our friends
8 and we are not guilty. We didn't want the war, we only love people. We
9 don't kill them and we still don't hate. We still don't hate.
10 "[Interpretation] My heart is broken."
11 MR. GILLETT:
12 Q. The conditions in Vukovar that this girl describes, including the
13 lack of medical supplies and the lack of food, is that consistent with
14 what you experienced in Vukovar?
15 A. Precisely so. At the hospital we had some supplies, but those
16 who were hiding in the basements of private houses, they had very little
17 food. Guard members supplied us with pigs and cows that roamed the
18 streets of the city, but there was no water. We could not kill them and
19 skin them in a very safe way. But the hospital had experts who examined
20 the meat, so we had food. We didn't have bread, though.
21 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and
22 15 seconds, and play the clip through to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and
23 29 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. GILLETT: Could we pause there.
1 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this shot?
2 A. This is our doctor, our dentist, and her father.
3 Q. And what are these people doing?
4 A. These people are in the centre of Vukovar. They lived there.
5 And over bullhorns they were informed to go to the Velepromet collection
7 Q. Why were they told to go to the Velepromet collection centre?
8 A. Well, I really wouldn't know that. That's how things were
9 decided. The men were separated from the women and from the Serb
10 citizens. They separated the Serbs and they set them free, whereas
11 people of Croatian ethnicity and other ethnicities were treated
12 differently. The men were separated from the women. And you will see
13 later that the men were then sent to some hangars.
14 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to the clip 1 hour and 12 minutes
15 and 36 seconds, through to 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 0 seconds.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. GILLETT:
18 Q. Who are these soldiers? How would you describe them?
19 A. I would say that they were paramilitaries because they were not
20 completely clad in uniforms. JNA soldiers had different uniforms. Their
21 uniforms were complete. They were neat, clean-shaven. They looked like
22 the real army, and here in the clip you can see that their uniforms are
23 not complete. One part of their uniform was of one kind and the other
24 part of the uniform was of a different kind.
25 MR. GILLETT: Could we now go to clip 1 hour, 22 minutes, and
1 25 seconds, to 1 hour, 22 minutes, and 37 seconds.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. GILLETT:
4 Q. Do you recognise this location?
7 with this company. They were wholesalers, and I was in the warehouse and
8 in this courtyard at least once a week.
9 MR. GILLETT: Can I get a redaction of the line 23 to 24 , where
10 he states his position, please.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So ordered.
12 MR. GILLETT: And we're going to now turn to the final part of
13 this video which is the final exhibit I'm dealing with here. If we could
14 go to clip 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 24 seconds, through to 1 hour,
15 39 minutes, and 40 seconds.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. GILLETT:
18 Q. First, what building is this?
19 A. This is the hospital. This is the main entrance to the new
21 Q. And what are all the people doing outside?
22 A. These are civilians. When Vukovar fell, civilians came from all
23 over the place and arrived at the hospital because they thought they
24 would be safe there, that nobody would touch them if they were in the
1 Q. And did that turn out to be correct, that they would be safe and
2 untouched at the hospital?
3 A. Well, it was correct; however, the agreement with the JNA and the
4 Red Cross from Vukovar was that they would come to fetch them and
5 transport them. A list of all those who were there and who were loaded
6 onto the trucks and taken to Velepromet.
7 MR. GILLETT: Could we now play clip 1 hour, 53 minutes and
8 47 seconds, through to 1 hour and 54 minutes.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. GILLETT:
11 Q. What are these two rooms that were shown?
12 A. That was the only true atomic shelter in the hospital. It
13 consisted of two separate rooms and that's where infants were.
14 Q. And could you describe briefly the conditions at the hospital?
15 A. The conditions were terrible. When that shell hit the hospital,
16 it shattered all the window-panes on the -- all the new hospital
17 buildings. All the patients had to be lowered into the basement because
18 there were no conditions for them to stay on any of the floors. It was
19 terrible. The shell fell and the detonation was so strong that it
20 shattered all the window-panes. It destroyed all the doors and windows.
21 The patients could not be guaranteed safety, which is why they had to be
22 lowered to the lower floors in the basement.
23 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, we would now tender this video 4892
24 for admission into evidence.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1024. Thank
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
4 MR. GILLETT: And that concludes my questions on direct. Thank
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. My name is Zoran Zivanovic
11 and I represent Goran Hadzic in these proceedings. I have a few
12 questions for you that arise from your statement and your testimony so
13 far. First of all, I wanted to ask you, or rather, I would like to shed
14 some more light on the things that you have spoken about here today. On
15 page 32, you said that about 2.000 shells a day fell on the
16 Vukovar Hospital?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I wanted to ask you whether you're sure about the figure?
19 A. I can't be sure. Nobody can be sure. I know that from early
20 morning, from 7.00 until 11.00, that one shell hit the hospital every
21 minute and that's how I made my calculations. If you calculate the
22 number of hours -- although the shells fell even during the night but not
23 so many. The shelling was constant; it just didn't stop.
24 Q. According to my rough estimate, that would mean that there was
25 one shell every half a minute?
1 A. Approximately so.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come
3 closer to the microphone and could the counsel be instructed to switch
4 off his mike when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness and Mr. Zivanovic, two things. You
6 both should, as you speak the same language --
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: As you both speak the same language and in order
9 to assist the interpreters, you should stop after question and before
10 answering, so as to allow the interpreters to follow.
11 Second, Mr. Zivanovic -- and the witness could eventually be
12 attentive to that too. Mr. Zivanovic's microphone has to be shut off
13 before you start answering because through that microphone there is no
14 voice distortion. Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned Mitnica during your testimony.
18 Could you please explain the term. What does the term denote?
19 A. I remember Mitnica as a child. I don't know how to explain the
20 word "Mitnica" to you. Do you know what Mitnica is? It was like a
21 border crossing. That's what "Mitnica" stands for. I wouldn't be able
22 to answer your question precisely. This is the name that has been known
23 for ages for that part of the city.
24 Q. Is that part of the town at the very entrance into Vukovar?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. Could you please tell us whether that part of the city was
2 actually the last part of the city that the Yugoslav People's Army
3 occupied during the operations around Vukovar?
4 A. I wouldn't know that. I was in the hospital. I can't tell you.
5 I was in no position to know whether it was the first one or the last
6 one. I don't know. I can't answer that because I was in the hospital
7 all the time.
8 Q. And you did not hear that even later?
9 A. No, I did not. But I think that it was among the first -- that
10 there were negotiations with the army and the international community and
11 Pilip Karaula and Zdravko Komsic, who were the commanders of Mitnica,
12 they negotiated a surrender on a condition that civilians wouldn't be
13 touched. They surrendered their weapons, but they made it conditional on
14 the civilians being protected.
15 Q. Do you know if that was immediately before the arrival of the
16 troops at the Vukovar Hospital?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. On page 37 of today's transcript, you said, inter alia, that you
23 knew that you would be leaving Vukovar when the JNA arrived. That's on
24 page 37 of today's transcript. In paragraph 26 of your statement it says
25 the same.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 24 of your
3 statement, to the sentence where you say:
4 "Later I heard that Major Sljivancanin said that the hospital
5 staff could stay and continue working. Most of the Serb personnel
6 decided to stay."
7 You stated earlier today that Major Sljivancanin said that only
8 Serbs could stay.
9 A. I may have misspoken, only Serbs.
10 Q. You heard that?
11 A. No. I was the last one to leave. I don't know whether you read
13 Sljivancanin had already held a meeting with the medical staff when the
14 auxiliary services had already been separated from the rest of the
15 hospital staff, and I mean clerks, drivers, and others, they were the
16 ones who were taken to the buses that unfortunately ended up at Ovcara.
17 And the load included slightly wounded patients. Somebody came to tell
18 us that we were the last to leave. We didn't know what was going on.
19 Then I saw Mr. Sljivancanin in a meeting. And then we were taken out.
20 There were three to four soldiers in a gauntlet on each side. They
21 searched us. They were probably looking for weapons or I don't know
22 what. And then we were loaded onto buses.
23 MR. GILLETT: Sorry, could we get a redaction page 50, line 5,
24 the location where the witness worked. In general, the fact that he
25 worked at the hospital I don't think is problematic, but the specific
1 location within the hospital, we tried to draw that line.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gillett, when asking the -- let's -- sorry,
3 let's go into private session, please.
4 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Tell me, please, was it said in the morning at the meeting that
2 you didn't attend and those who attended the meeting passed that message
3 on to you?
4 A. Precisely so.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. On page 39 of today's transcript - you don't have that on the
10 screen but it doesn't matter - you stated that there were two MUP members
11 bearing the same name, Ivan, and in your statement you mention one of
13 A. Actually, both of them.
14 Q. Yes, you mention both of them, but one of them was also known as
16 A. You misunderstood me, I apologise. There were two Ivans who were
17 MUP members and they secured the old hospital building. The third guy
18 called Ivan, Ivan Bozak, was at the gate. He was our doorman. He was a
19 hospital employee. The first two were not hospital employees. They were
20 MUP members who provided security for the hospital building.
21 Q. Could you please tell me, if you know, of course, why was this
22 person's nickname special?
23 A. May I? Yes, I may. I don't know. There was a special school.
24 That means that he was a bit retarded, that he was not like anybody else.
25 That's why we called him Specijalac. That's why he could work at the
1 gate as doorman and he worked together with Bogdan Kuzmic, who allegedly
2 ended up killing him. They were both porters.
3 Q. On page 40 of the transcript you said that you knew, or rather,
4 assumed that these people would be executed, those who were singled out.
5 Could you explain why didn't it occur to you that they could be sent to
7 A. Because when we were taken to the barracks by those buses,
8 paramilitaries, Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and the real army met us,
9 although there were less actual army troops. And there were also
10 high-ranking officers. I don't know whether it was Mrksic and Radic. I
11 think they were there but not Sljivancanin. And they went around with
12 knives and threatened us, telling us that they would slit our throats.
13 They told one of our colleagues that they would rape his wife, et cetera.
14 Q. Did I understand you correctly? One of the officers was reading
15 from a list the names of people who were to be returned to the hospital?
16 A. Yes, you understood me correctly. I mean, I assume -- I don't
17 know what kind of rank he had but it was a high rank. He went around the
18 buses because a list was made at the hospital. Dr. Ivankovic had asked
19 Sljivancanin's permission to make a list of employees of the hospital
20 from supporting services, specifying that these people had no weapons,
21 et cetera, and they should be returned. However, not everybody from that
22 list was returned because the fifth column in the hospital - that's my
23 opinion - deleted some names because I know that my wife put certain
24 names on that list and those people were deleted. They were not called
25 out at the barracks, which means that the list was shortened in the
1 hospital itself. It's not the same list that Dr. Ivankovic received in
2 order to convey to Sljivancanin. I don't know if you understood me. If
3 necessary, I'll repeat.
4 Q. Let's clarify one more thing. You said you went to Velepromet
5 once a week to get supplies?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was that before the war?
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, all that has to be redacted.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You said at several points in your statement -- you mention the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and also members of the
19 Yugoslav People's Army. I noticed there is no reference in your
20 statement to reservists. Do you know that in the operations around
21 Vukovar, the Yugoslav People's Army used not only the conscripts doing
22 their regular military service but also recruits of older age groups that
23 were recruited from the reserve force, the so-called reservists?
24 A. This is the first time I hear about it.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, the Registrar tells me that we have
2 some problems with the fact that you answer too fast while the microphone
3 is still open. That causes problems because then we have to redact
4 everything. So if you could please make a pause before you start
5 answering the question. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'll be more careful.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you know, generally speaking, that in the Yugoslav People's
9 Army, not only during the Vukovar operation but always, there were people
10 who had already done their military service and then received a war-time
11 assignment in the event of war or military drills?
12 A. I knew that before the war they called up reservists from time to
13 time, but I was not thinking about that in the context of this war
14 because, honestly, I never did my military service - I was declared
15 unfit - so I didn't give it any thought.
16 Q. Then it is probably difficult for you to distinguish the uniform
17 of reservists from the uniforms of others who belonged to what you called
18 paramilitary forces?
19 A. Probably. This is the first time I actually hear this
20 suggestion. I had never given any thought to reservists, but I know that
21 they were JNA because they looked like real soldiers. They were properly
22 dressed in uniform, clean-shaven, whereas the others were unkempt and
23 unshaven and looked any which way. The soldiers were better in every
25 Q. Let me go back to your statement. Look at paragraph 35 of your
1 statement. You said, among other things, that between 9.00 and
2 10.00 a.m., one of the medical assistants told you to go to the main
3 entrance to the ER and going down the hallway you noticed that the
4 patients who used to be in the hallway were missing. Does it mean that
5 they had already been taken out of the hospital, put on buses, or taken
6 in some other way?
7 A. Those more lightly wounded had been taken away, whereas those
8 with serious injuries had already put -- been put on ambulances that went
9 with us, with the convoy.
10 Q. Do you know at the time when you were going out, was the convoy
11 with the lightly injured still there or had it already left?
12 A. Because I was in that convoy with those five/six buses because
13 they had been put on buses and regrettably they ended up in Ovcara, those
14 lightly wounded. They were first taken to the barracks, and after the
15 reading out of this list, some of us were returned, which was no
16 guarantee that we would be released. Serb employees of the hospital
17 first had to guarantee for us that we also worked for the hospital and
18 did not have any weapons.
19 Q. In other words, at that time you were not put in the convoy with
20 other hospital employees but with the lightly injured?
24 supporting staff, all of them were taken away.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please. 60 -- page 56, line 13
1 and 14, I'd say 15 also to be redacted, please.
2 And, Mr. Witness, to make the business with the microphones work,
3 because I noticed that it still doesn't, could I ask you after each
4 question of Mr. Zivanovic to count in your head to five and then start
5 answering. By that time, the microphone will be off and the interpreters
6 will have finished their translation. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I'm sorry, I have no
8 experience with this. I'll do my best.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Let us go --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I see the time. Would this be an
12 appropriate moment?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. Witness, we will take our second
15 break of the day and come back at 12.45. We go into closed session now
16 and the court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.
17 [Closed session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, may I remind you to
4 count to five before answering. Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let us just repeat. After leaving the
8 hospital, you got on a bus where there were both employees of the
9 hospital and people lightly injured. Were there also on the same bus
10 members of the Croatian Home Guards Corps?
11 A. I'm sorry.
12 No, but with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to clear up
13 about the reservists. At the barracks there was not a single reservist
14 because all of them were young and half of them were men from Vukovar.
15 Q. Reservists are usually men who are mobilised in extraordinary
16 situations such as an immediate threat of war or war time. Do you know
17 that such mobilisations were also carried out in the territory of
19 A. I don't know, but I don't think so. I believe that they
20 self-organised. Just as Croats organised themselves to defend Vukovar,
21 the Serbs organised themselves as well.
22 Q. Let us go back to that bus. Could you tell us in your estimate
23 what time was it when you got on the bus?
24 A. Well, between 10.00 and 11.00. I can't tell you exactly. It was
25 20 years ago, but it was between 10.00 and 11.00 because we had just
1 distributed breakfasts and we from the kitchen were the last to come and
2 we were put on the bus in a group. Everybody else was already on the
4 Q. You said in your statement that those buses ended up at the
5 barracks in Vukovar. Tell me, approximately how much time did it take
6 you to get to the Vukovar barracks?
7 A. About 20 minutes. If everything had been normal, we would have
8 gotten there sooner, but since Vukovar was destroyed, streets were
9 covered in debris, piles of debris, and those were not regular buses.
10 They were military buses with those wooden seats and they moved slowly.
11 It was difficult to move through all that.
12 Q. You said that when the buses arrived at the barracks, there were
13 people around the buses threatening those on the bus, and among those
14 people there were also officers who did nothing to stop the others. I'd
15 like to know, in your estimate, were those officers able to prevent that
16 if they had wanted to?
17 A. Of course they were able to. They just didn't want to. You see,
18 if somebody is a high-ranking officer, they had some authority. But they
19 just let it happen. When that bus was put together, when the group was
20 put together to be returned, they made us go through a gauntlet and they
21 were hitting us with bats, with clubs. And there was an officer there, a
22 high-ranking officer, who didn't lift a finger.
23 Q. [Microphone not activated].
24 In paragraph 45 of your statement you said that a JNA officer got
25 onto one of the buses at one point, and when he got on the bus everybody
1 went quiet. When you said "quiet," do you also mean the people around
2 the buses -- look up that paragraph if you will.
3 A. I understand your question. I didn't mean that the crowd outside
4 suddenly went silent, but those on the bus because they were waiting to
5 see whom he would call out. And he also looked for Dr. Emedi,
6 Dr. Farkas, Dr. Kucjanovic [phoen], journalist Esterajher, and some other
7 people. Some prominent people from Vukovar, he wanted us to tell him
8 whether we knew where those people were.
9 Q. [Microphone not activated]
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I believe you also mentioned Sinisa Glavasevic among them?
17 (redacted). He was
18 lightly wounded somewhere around his ear or his nose. That was the last
19 time I saw him.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will have to redact a few lines there in 60,
21 5, 6, 7, and 8, or something or thereabouts, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you tell me whether that officer was also looking for
24 Sinisa among the others?
25 A. He did not look for Sinisa Glavasevic, just the other people I
1 mentioned. They were all in the same profession except for
2 Mr. Esterajher, who was a reporter for the Vukovar Radio. All the others
3 were doctors.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please, Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
8 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 46 I see that in addition to all
9 these other names you also mention Sinisa Glavasevic. Is that a mistake?
10 A. Perhaps. You see, that was 20 years ago. It could be an error,
11 but it's possible also that he was looking for him too. I'm certain
12 about the others but I'm no longer certain about Sinisa Glavasevic.
13 Q. Can you tell us how long did you stay at the barracks? How long
14 did the bus you were on stay at the barracks and how long was it before
15 you moved to the other bus?
16 A. About half an hour, no more than 45 minutes, because as soon as
17 we arrived that crowd gathered who threatened us with knives, et cetera.
18 Then this official came, or officer, Mrksic, Radic, I can't remember who
19 it was because I didn't know these people then. He called out names. It
20 was very quiet. And everyone would move as soon as they got called out
21 to the other buses. And the troops made a gauntlet. They had pieces of
22 wood, clubs, metal pipes, et cetera, and they hit us with whatever they
24 Q. In paragraph 51 of your statement you mentioned that from the bus
25 in which you arrived a total of 25 people got out. You say that some
1 others remained on the bus and you give us their names. Now, let's clear
2 this up. These people whom you name, are those the ones who stayed or
3 the ones who moved with you to the other bus?
4 A. When we got there with that list from the hospital, we were not
5 sure, as I said before, that we were going to be released. We thought
6 that Serb employees of the hospital would have to guarantee for us that
7 we didn't have any weapons, whereas those people who remained, there were
8 two employees of the hospital, Marko Vlaho and Mirko Vlaho, and the rest
9 were not employees of the hospital. Marko Vlaho and the other man, I
10 have a mind freeze now, those two men named Vlaho, they were employees of
11 the hospital. But when the war began, since we had Serb drivers who left
12 their jobs, needed to be replaced and they came. And nobody could give
13 guarantees for them because the other staff of the hospital could not
14 provide guarantees for them. That's why they stayed behind and they
15 ended up at Ovcara.
16 Q. I believe that we have just spoken at cross-purposes. I meant
17 the events at the barracks because I believe that paragraph 51 of your
18 statement refers to that. You can take a look. And that's the time when
19 you arrived to the barracks on the buses and you were transferred onto a
20 different bus. I believe that that's where you were transferred to a
21 different bus, a total of 25 people who would later on be returned to the
22 hospital. I'm interested in the names that you mentioned in
23 paragraph 51. Did those people remain on the bus that brought you to the
24 barracks or were they transferred together with you to the other bus that
25 would return to the hospital?
1 A. I apologise. I was looking at the transcript and I was not
2 listening to you. Can you please repeat your question.
3 Q. Let us look at paragraph 51 of your statement. You say that a
4 total of 25 people were taken off the bus. You're talking about the bus
5 that arrived from the Vukovar Hospital and it reached the barracks and
6 you were among those 25 people. Did I understand you correctly?
7 A. No, you did not. There were around 25 people who were taken from
8 all the buses and put onto one bus. We were taken to the hospital. The
9 Serbian staff of the hospital had to provide guarantees that we had not
10 been carrying weapons.
11 Q. In other words, in paragraph 51 you mentioned the names of the
12 people. Did those people remain on the bus from which you were taken
14 A. Jozo Adzaga remained, Miroslav Vlaho, and the other Vlaho whose
15 first name was Mato. And let's see who else. Another man whom I didn't
16 know, I didn't know his name, I know that he had worked at the Jugopetrol
17 company before the war and that when he was on the bus together with us,
18 when we reached the hospital he was accused of having killed Jovo Rakica,
19 who was a well-known tradesman in Vukovar, and he was among those who
20 were then taken back.
21 Q. [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I will no longer insist on any further explanations. You
1 mentioned a name [as interpreted] whose nickname was Bulidza. That's in
2 paragraph 54 of your statement. Was he on the bus which took you from
3 the barracks to the hospital?
4 A. Yes. That Bulidza was a staff member at the hospital before the
5 war. He was a butcher in the kitchen.
6 Q. And now could you please tell us something about -- you said in
7 paragraphs 55 through 63. You described the return to the Vukovar
8 Hospital, the journey to the hospital itself. And in paragraph 57 you
9 mention Major Sljivancanin. Was he there when the bus arrived from the
10 barracks to the hospital?
11 A. Yes, he was. He was in the hospital all that time, for as long
12 as the convoy did not depart. He was the person in charge. He was the
13 one who said: This one can go. If somebody guaranteed for a certain
14 person, then he would be let out from the bus and allowed to go to
15 Ivo Lola Ribar Street, where the buses were forming the convoy. There
16 were some ten ambulances, or perhaps even 15 ambulances, that transferred
17 seriously wounded. There was staff members there. I don't know how many
18 buses were there. I joined them at the end of the day. There was also
19 the International Red Cross there and the international community
21 Q. [Microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What was the time of day when the separation took place, when
1 people were separated into two different convoys, the one that stayed
2 behind and then, I suppose, was taken towards Ovcara and the other that
3 you joined? What was the time of day when that separation into two
4 convoys took place?
5 A. We were returned -- you asked me about the time when we left.
6 That was between 10.00 and 11.00. We stayed there around half an hour,
7 up to 45 minutes, then we returned. Some individuals got off.
8 Sljivancanin would approve who could leave, who could not, based on
9 guarantees, and that may have taken no longer than an hour. Then we
10 crossed to the other side, to Ivo Lola Ribar Street, but the convoy did
11 not depart straight away. I don't know what it was waiting for. It
12 probably departed perhaps an hour to an hour and a half after all of
13 those developments.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You're now talking about the convoy that you joined, the convoy
18 that would later go to Sremska Mitrovica; right?
19 A. Precisely.
20 Q. Tell me this: Could you see what was going on with the other
21 convoy in which some people stayed, did it depart about the same time you
22 did or earlier?
23 A. No, we could not see them because we were on a different side of
24 the street and we were on a different side of the hospital.
25 Q. Just one more thing that I would like to clarify and it concerns
1 the shelling that I already asked you about, that was one of my first
2 questions. Could you please tell me, how long did shelling last? How
3 many days, how many weeks or months? You spoke about the shelling of the
4 hospital and you said about 2.000 shells fell on the hospital on a daily
6 A. That was in the month of August. I don't know on what date it
7 started and it lasted until the fall of Vukovar. It was uninterrupted.
8 During the night it was not so frequent. From 11.00 in the evening until
9 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning shells did not fall so frequently. During
10 the day they were falling on the hospital non-stop, all the time.
11 Q. I'm trying to do my math. It arises from that that about
12 180.000 shells fell on the hospital. If something like that had
13 happened, I don't know what would have remained of the hospital.
14 A. Sir, you misunderstood me. Even if shells were falling in the
15 centre of the city we could hear it in the hospital. Thousands upon
16 thousands of shells fell on the hospital and in the entire city. That
17 shelling was intermittent, it did not stop. It was constant.
18 Q. I may have not understood you properly. I thought that you said
19 that 2.000 shells fell on the hospital every day. It seems that you had
20 in mind the entire city, but it did have an impact on the hospital. Is
21 that what you were saying?
22 A. No. I'm saying that at least a thousand shells fell on the
23 hospital every day. In general terms, Vukovar was shelled for three
24 months without any interruptions, with some breaks from 11.00 in the
25 evening until 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning when shells did not fall
1 constantly, although they did.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions for you.
3 A. Thank you.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. GILLETT: A couple of questions. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Gillett:
8 Q. Witness, firstly, at transcript page 53, line 16, you mentioned a
9 term "fifth column," this is on the transcript. Could you describe who
10 were the fifth column and what that term means when you use it?
11 A. In the hospital those were Serb staff members. We shared
12 whatever we had, cigarettes and everything else. And when Vukovar and
13 the hospital fell, then those people, individuals of Serb ethnicity,
14 pointed their fingers at certain other staff members. They pointed them
15 to Captain Sasa and Major Sljivancanin and laid accusations against them
16 for God knows what.
17 Q. Thank you. Second question: In relation to these people, the
18 Vlahos, in paragraph 32 of your statement you referred to a Marko Vlaho
19 and you say he survived and lives in Zagreb. Then at paragraph 58 you
20 refer to a Miroslav Vlaho and Mato, M-a-t-o, Vlaho, and you say that they
21 stayed on the bus at the hospital when you got off the bus. So I'm
22 trying to establish, because on the transcript before it wasn't entirely
23 clear whether there were two or three Vlahos.
24 A. There were three persons by the same name. Marko Vlaho was the
25 oldest, he was Miroslav Vlaho's father. The other Vlaho - what was his
1 name? - was the oldest Vlaho's nephew. They were both drivers.
2 Marko Vlaho was the driver who was taken out on the night when
3 Captain Sasa entered the hospital.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gillett, the way you phrased the question at
5 67, 8, you say:
6 "In relation to these people ..."
7 When I go to the previous question I would think that this is
8 about those Serb people referred to as the fifth column, but I think they
9 are Croats, aren't they?
10 MR. GILLETT: Indeed. That was not my intention to link it to
11 the previous question.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. GILLETT: And that was my final question on re-direct. Thank
14 you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for
18 you. I'm referring to the transcript page 62, mainly page 62. You spoke
19 about the buses who took the hospital staff from the Vukovar Hospital to
20 the barracks - that's the word in English, I believe. And 25 people from
21 your bus returned from the barracks to the hospital because, according to
22 you, according to your testimony, there were some Serb employees who
23 could guarantee that those people, I believe that they were Croats, had
24 not been carrying weapons.
25 My question is this: Are you saying that the only reason why a
1 Croat member of hospital staff was taken to the barracks and then from
2 there was returned to the hospital was a guarantee provided by a Serb
3 member of hospital staff that that Croat had not been carrying arms? Is
4 that the only reason? Was there any other reason?
5 A. Partly. I don't think that you understood me properly. First of
6 all, those were hospital staff members who were returned because
7 Major Sljivancanin received a list, and those were not all people from my
8 bus. They were gathered from all of the buses. There were five or
9 six buses. The high-ranking military officer called our names and we
10 came from all the buses, some 25 or 30 of us. And then when we arrived
11 in front of the hospital, then our colleagues, local Serbs, had to
12 guarantee that we had not been carrying arms. That's how it happened.
13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. I thank you. Can we
14 say that, for example, if a Croat had a Serb wife that guarantees were
15 understood? Was it automatic? Could a Serbian wife guarantee that her
16 Croatian husband did not carry arms?
17 A. Yes, it was automatic. If the wife guaranteed for him, he would
18 be set free. But there were also Serbian doctors. For example, a
19 pharmacist provided guarantees for me and for my brother. She was a Serb
20 and she guaranteed for the two [as interpreted] of us.
21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you
22 for your clarifications regarding guarantees.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I noted just one error in transcript. The
1 witness said that three persons, the pharmacist guarantees for three
2 persons, not for two.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you mention three persons? Did you mention
4 three persons, Mr. Witness? Could you repeat, please?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosnic, who was the head of
6 our hospital pharmacy, was a Serb. We were on very good terms. We
8 (redacted). She
9 guaranteed for the three of us.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Sorry about that, but this will have to be
11 redacted. I should have asked for private session.
12 If that is all -- Mr. Gillett.
13 MR. GILLETT: Just a quick technical matter to hopefully help
14 with the -- with the associated exhibits there was a video-clip and the
15 65 ter number should be 4798.2. It was not one that we saw in court
16 today, but it was associated with the statement. And also, there is a
17 list uploaded in e-court which links the numbers of the coloured photos
18 that are easier to see with the black and white photos which are attached
19 to the statement, and we've put that as 3258.2. And so if they could be
20 admitted along with the statements, I believe it would assist when it
21 comes to analysing this material.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Isn't that a rather complicated way of getting
23 this straight, Mr. Gillett? Wouldn't it be easier if you would tender
24 again the statement with coloured photos annexed to it rather than make
25 all these loops?
1 MR. GILLETT: We thought this was the easiest way to proceed
2 because when the statement was taken, he signed copies that were in black
3 and white, and these colour photographs are from the previous proceeding
4 and easier to see.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So ordered.
6 Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to an end. We thank you
7 very much for your assistance. You are now released as a witness, and
8 once in closed session, the court usher will escort you out of court.
9 Thank you very much. We wish you a safe journey home.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [Closed session]
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.24 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
22 February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.