1 Thursday, 7 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to -- good morning to everyone in
6 and around the courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, may we -- could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
14 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
15 Douglas Stringer, with Sarah Clanton and Thomas Laugel and intern
16 Mr. Vros Zigic for the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 For the Defence. Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
22 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President. We had intended and
23 forget to mention ahead of time that there was -- there were two
24 preliminaries matters with respect to this witness that we wish to raise
25 or Ms. Clanton needs to raise before the witness is brought in.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: We need to go into private session for that?
2 MR. STRINGER: For the second one, yes.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's start with the first one then.
4 MS. CLANTON: Good morning, Your Honour.
5 And as was in a proofing note that I provided yesterday, and I
6 would like to notify the Court that in the course of reviewing the Mrksic
7 transcripts of this witness, we discovered that there was a mistake in
8 the interpretation into the English version of an answer he gave in his
9 Mrksic testimony. We were able to review the B/C/S audio with the
10 witness and also with our language staff and confirmed that there is a
11 mistake in the English interpretation.
12 This is part of his 92 ter statement, his Mrksic testimony, and
13 therefore we provided the parties with the information on what he
14 actually said in B/C/S as well as a corrected English translation.
15 If you would like, I can refer to the precise page and line
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. And -- and in -- in the 92 -- sorry. Is
18 it now corrected in the 92 ter statement that we have --
19 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, it's a testimony. And we have to I
20 think speak further to the Registry about how to correct the official
21 English translation, the official transcript.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's what I was wondering about. You're saying
23 you provided it to the parties, but how -- how would it get to us?
24 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, we provided a proofing note we wanted
25 to raise this a preliminary matter and to note that there is problem with
1 the English. This is not something that the witness can really comment
2 on because he doesn't speak English. It's something that we discovered
3 through the course of proofing and were able to confirm that the mistake
4 is simply to do with the interpretation at the time.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Anything from the Defence on --
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 So then we go into that private session, please.
11 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Witness, can you tell us your name and date of birth and your
24 ethnicity, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragutin Berghofer.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your date of birth.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 29th of October, 1940. Born in
3 the town of Osijek.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And your ethnicity, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croat.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to read the solemn
7 declaration by which witnesses commitment themselves to tell the truth.
8 I need to point out to you that you expose yourself to the penalties of
9 perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this
11 Can I now ask you to read the solemn declaration the usher will
12 give you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: DRAGUTIN BERGHOFER
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You maybe be seated. Thank
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton, your witness.
21 Examination by Ms. Clanton:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berghofer.
23 A. Good morning. Good morning.
24 Q. Did you testify here in The Hague in March 2006 in the case
25 against Mile Mrksic, Veselin Sljivancanin, and Miroslav Radic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And since you arrived here in The Hague, have you listened to the
3 audio recording of your testimony in that case?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did you recognise that audio recording as your testimony?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today that you were
8 asked at that time, would you provide the same answers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
11 accuracy and truthfulness of your audio -- or your testimony in the
12 Mrksic case?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution would
15 tender 65 ter numbers 04458, 04459, and 04460 into evidence under seal.
16 These are at tabs 1 to 3. We'd also seek to tender the associated
17 exhibits which are at tabs 4 through 9.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I probably missed something. Could you tell us
19 why it should be under seal.
20 MS. CLANTON: Because, Your Honour, in the prior proceedings,
21 part of his evidence was given in private session due to the nature of
22 the discussion.
23 We will be providing the Court with a public redacted version of
24 his testimony shortly.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4460 shall be
3 assigned Exhibit P1065 under seal.
4 65 ter document 4459 shall be assigned Exhibit P1066.1065, under
6 65 ter document 4458 shall be assigned Exhibit P1067.1065,
7 admitted under seal.
8 65 ter document 2828 shall be assigned Exhibit P1068.1065.
9 65 ter document 2643 shall be assigned Exhibit P1069.1065.
10 65 ter document 2640 shall be assigned Exhibit P1070.1065.
11 65 ter document 2644 shall be assigned Exhibit P1071.1065.
12 65 ter document 3038 shall be assigned Exhibit P1072.1065.
13 And 65 ter document 2645 shall be assigned Exhibit P1073.1065.
14 Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
16 MS. CLANTON:
17 Q. First, Mr. Berghofer, I want to tell you that today when I refer
18 to your evidence in the Mrksic case from 2006, I will refer to it as your
19 Mrksic testimony. I will not say each time the names of the other two
20 persons, Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic, simply because it's easier to
21 refer to it as the Mrksic testimony.
22 In addition, I will be providing page numbers to the English
23 translation of your testimony. You do not need to follow anything on
24 paper, but please just listen to the questions.
25 And as the Chamber has admitted your Mrksic testimony, I'm only
1 going to ask you questions today on a small number of topics.
2 First, I want to ask you about the testimony that you gave in
3 Mrksic about the buses that took you to the JNA barracks on the 20th of
4 November, 1991.
5 In the Mrksic case, when you gave evidence - and this is at
6 transcript page 5280 - you gave evidence that on 20th of November, 1991,
7 you left the hospital in Vukovar in a convoy of six buses.
8 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask Mr. Laugel to please play a
9 clip from 65 ter 4986. This has ERN V000-6801. This is at tab 12.
10 We've prepared a clip from the longer video and the 65 ter number of the
11 clip is 04986.1. The relevant time code is from 1 hour, 38 minutes, and
12 50 seconds, to 1 hour, 39 minutes and 39 seconds. We're not asking that
13 the audio of this video be played or tendered at this time. It's only
14 for the images.
15 And I would first like to ask Mr. Laugel to play the video and
16 pause at approximately 2 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. CLANTON: For the record, we have paused at 1 hour, 38
19 minutes, 54 seconds.
20 Q. Mr. Berghofer, do you recognise the bus in this still image?
21 A. Yes. Those are those buses.
22 Q. And when you say "those buses," can you tell me where you've seen
23 this bus before?
24 A. They were standing in front of the hospital.
25 Q. And do you recognise the bridge that this bus is crossing?
1 A. Yes. That is the so-called wooden bridge, although it was not
2 made of wood, but that's what people have been calling it for the past 50
3 years or so. The wooden bridge, "drveni most."
4 Q. And what is the name of the river that is underneath the bridge?
5 A. Vuka.
6 Q. And who was on this bus?
7 A. I was. And all of those who were at the hospital, as prisoners.
8 Q. So where was this bus coming from?
9 A. From the direction of the hospital, moving towards Belgrade.
10 Q. Was it mostly men or women on the bus?
11 A. As far as I know, there was only one woman in the bus with her
12 son, and that is Dragica Tuskan.
13 Q. I'm now going to ask Mr. Laugel to play a bit more. Please keep
14 your attention focussed on the left-hand side of the screen.
15 And I would like to ask Mr. Laugel to pause at 1 hour, 39
16 minutes, and 2 seconds, please.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Mr. Berghofer, what do you see entering the screen in this still
21 A. On the right-hand side, I see Dr. Bosanac; I think that's her.
22 Q. Mr. Berghofer, if you could please look at the picture that's on
23 the left half of your screen, and I'd like to ask you if you see -- what
24 you see entering the picture on the left half of your screen.
25 A. By the bus, on the left-hand side - I mean, on this left-hand
1 picture - it seems as if the next bus is entering, getting into the
2 picture, on the right-hand side. Yes.
3 Q. And do you know where the second bus was coming from?
4 A. One following the other. If I was in the fourth bus, then these
5 three were in front of me, and two behind me.
6 Q. Mr. Berghofer, where was the place that the bus went?
7 A. Well, you see, it's the centre of town. And then we were moving
8 on, say, another 400, 500 metres straight, and then they turned to the
9 right. That is the road to Negoslavci and the barracks.
10 MS. CLANTON: I'd like to play to the end of the clip, which is 1
11 hour, 39 minutes, 39 seconds.
12 Q. And, again, Mr. Berghofer, when the screen splits, please focus
13 your attention on the left side of the screen.
14 A. All right.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Buses are moving.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I've asked our Case Manager to bring the image
20 back up. Just one moment, please.
21 Mr. Berghofer, who is the taller man standing towards the left of
22 this photograph?
23 A. That is Major Veselin Sljivancanin. But, of course, I recognised
24 him once I had been released, when I was in Zagreb, when I was watching
25 TV. That's the man who was in command at the Vukovar Hospital.
1 Q. Mr. Berghofer, where is Major Sljivancanin standing when this
2 footage is being taken?
3 A. It is -- well, the people of Vukovar call it the newer bridge,
4 but it's actually the wooden bridge is newer than this one. But this
5 bridge in the centre of town was built before the wooden bridge. Say,
6 that is 300 kilometres away. They are 300 metres.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's correction.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 300 metres apart in the centre of
10 MS. CLANTON:
11 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, can you identify, provide the name of the
12 bridge that is visible in the left portion of this shot? Behind
13 Mr. Sljivancanin.
14 A. Well, we, the people of Vukovar, since that really used to be a
15 wooden bridge, that was the only bridge that we crossed after the Second
16 World War.
17 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, if you were standing on this new bridge, the
18 one that you just described where Sljivancanin is standing, would you be
19 able to see the wooden bridge?
20 A. Yes, you can see it. I told you, it's roughly 300 metres. Maybe
21 it's not even 300 metres. You can see a person normally. You can see
22 anyone you know well. I mean, I cannot say just anyone, but if you know
23 someone well you can see them, recognise them, and also you can
24 communicate with them. You can shout from one bridge to the other.
25 Q. And in this video-clip, who is Major Sljivancanin speaking to?
1 A. I personally always called him "Mirovnjak," the peace maker. The
2 Croatian television also played that. And this Sljivancanin almost
3 grabbed him and threw him into the water, but this man made such an
4 effort. Of course, I don't speak English, but then there was a
5 translation, and also you could see the hand gestures, and you know all
6 of that. You know what Veselin Sljivancanin's response was.
7 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, do you know what organisation the person he
8 is speaking to worked for?
9 A. I think he was an Englishman. That's what I found out later.
10 But you know what? The Red Cross was in Mitrovica. Then in Vukovar
11 there were different international institutions, UNTAES, and -- but I he
12 was the first one who was in charge of protecting the wounded and
13 civilians. That's what I think.
14 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, you described a few moments ago that you saw
15 television footage when you were released from prison and that you were
16 then able to recognise the person who you saw in the hospital as
17 Veselin Sljivancanin.
18 Do you believe that this was the footage that you saw when you
19 were released?
20 A. Well, yes. But I saw him after two years, after two and a half
21 years, after I had been set free once I got a television set.
22 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would
23 like to tender 65 ter 04986.1 into evidence.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1074. Thank you.
2 MS. CLANTON:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, I would like to ask you a question about what
4 it was like in Vukovar in November 1991. Towards the middle of
5 November 1991.
6 MS. CLANTON: I'd like to ask Mr. Laugel to please play a clip
7 from 65 ter 04799. And this is going to be 04799.2. The ERN is
8 V000-1131. This is listed at tab 10. We have prepared a clip that is
9 approximately a minute and a half long. The relevant time code from the
10 main video is 1 hour, 24 minutes, and 5 seconds, to 1 hour, 25 minutes,
11 and 30 seconds, and the transcripts for this video have been uploaded and
12 released in e-court and are available under that 65 ter number.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... from all the buildings and from
15 all the flats. I don't feel sorry for myself or the flat, I feel sorry
16 for all the flats...
17 "... and from all the roofs ...
18 "... about those weapons buried behind the shelter, you know...
19 "... behind the shelter ... they also buried the uniforms...
20 "... they burnt in the hospital, all of those who are in the
22 "... show us where that is.
23 "Behind the shelter there's a door in ...
24 "Hang on a minute, let us calm down so that we can tell these
1 "They have probably mined it?
2 "Yes. No, no.
3 "We don't know if they mined it or not.
4 "Pap Tomislav is, you can check this, the biggest criminal ... I
5 don't know whether he's been hit ... in the hospital.
6 "He did not come yesterday ... but now we've heard that
8 "Pap Tomislav?
9 "Pap Tomislav, the biggest criminals, Dosan, Molnar, Dane, Korac,
10 Ivan, who insulted me because I'm a Serbian woman...
11 "Go on, who else?
13 "Go on. You name more of the men that you know.
14 "Agan, that Korac, Ivica ... all of the Molnars ... then a man
15 from Zagorje, put civilian clothes on and went to the hospital.
16 "All right.
17 "And there were more civilians who shot at us.
18 "They all changed their clothes. That boy of 17 ... they were
19 firing from our apartments.
20 "Get ready, the Ustashas have come here right from Germany ...
21 where is Europe now?"
22 MS. CLANTON:
23 Q. Mr. Berghofer, what town is this being filmed in?
24 A. That is at the bridge that we call the new bridge, Novi Most or
25 grand hotel that stands right in front of the bridge.
1 Q. And without using their names, can you tell me if you recognise
2 the women who are shown in this video-clip?
3 A. Well, I knew both of them, and I never had any difficulties with
4 them. I believe that I was even on speaking terms with the blonde lady.
5 We would exchange hellos and -- as a craftsman I also had contacts with
6 them. But let's say that I am acquainted with both of them.
7 Q. And what ethnicity are they?
8 A. Well, the blonde one just said that she was of the Orthodox faith
9 and Serb ethnicity.
10 Q. And do you see -- can you please tell the Court who they're
11 talking to.
12 A. It's the Vukovar Territorial Defence. They were now telling each
13 other who they had seen so that, on this side, these reservists started
14 speaking about Tomislav Pap as being the brother of that other man. This
15 other individual mentioned Molnar, then still another mentioned Ivica and
16 Dosen. They're all people from Vukovar, locals, reservists who knew
17 these other men that the woman mentioned and named.
18 Q. Mr. Berghofer, the men that the woman mentioned and whose names
19 you just provided, Tomislav Pap, Molnars, Dosen, what ethnicity were
20 these people?
21 A. As far as I know about the Dosens, they were Croats. As for
22 Molnar, I can also claim that he is a Croat. And most probably
23 Tomislav Pap was as well, judging by his name, although that can be no
24 guarantee. There are names that both the Orthodox people and the Croats
25 have. But I'm guessing, since he was Dr. Bosanac's right hand man, that
1 he was a Croat.
2 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, what happened to Tomislav Pap?
3 A. I met Tomislav Pap in the hangar at Ovcara.
4 Q. And did you ever see him after the 20th of November, 1991?
5 A. Never again.
6 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time, we'd like to tender
7 65 ter 04799.2 into evidence, please.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Registrar tells me there is only an English
10 transcript for this clip. No B/C/S. If that's no problem for the
11 Defence --
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1075. Thank you.
15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, there is a B/C/S transcript, and we
16 will make sure that that is uploaded and released in e-court as soon as
17 possible. It may actually be attached to the English transcript.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
19 MS. CLANTON:
20 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, I'd like to move to a different subject. I
21 want to ask you about your familiarity with the facility that you
22 identified as Velepromet in the Mrksic case. In the Mrksic case you were
23 shown aerial photographs, this is at transcript page 5309, the Mrksic
24 transcript, and you indicated that you had been taken very briefly to
25 Velepromet on the 20th of November, 1991, and then again on the 21st of
1 November, 1991.
2 The question I want to ask you is: Had you known of this place
3 called Velepromet before those dates?
4 A. But, of course. I was a neighbour, as it were. I lived 500
5 metres away from Velepromet.
6 Q. So would it be fair to say that when you arrived there on
7 November 20th and on November 21st, 1991, it was familiar to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. CLANTON: I'd now like to ask Mr. Laugel to play a clip of
10 65 ter 04798.3. The ERN is V000-1130. This is at the list at tab 11.
11 Your Honours, I prepared a clip which is approximately 40 seconds
12 long, and the relevant time code for the main video is 36 minutes, 54
13 seconds, to 37 minutes, 28 seconds. We're not asking that the audio of
14 this video be used. I'd simply like to show it for the images.
15 And if Mr. Laugel could play it and first pause at 37 minutes and
16 5 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 Q. Mr. Berghofer, do you recognise the woman who's being shown in
19 this video?
20 A. Yes. She is an inhabitant of Vukovar. The mother of Zvonko
21 Ilis [phoen] who I met at Ovcara and who was subsequently killed.
22 MS. CLANTON: Now I'd like to play a bit more. If Mr. Laugel
23 could please play it and pause 37.08.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 Q. Mr. Berghofer, in this still image, do you see anybody that you
2 A. The man in the middle is Bratso, Wilhelm. To the right, the tall
3 bearded -- moustached man is Plajner.
4 Q. And just to clarify for the record, is this -- the man with the
5 moustache in the still image at 37:08, this is the person who appears
6 second from the right?
7 A. The second man from the right. The -- the man to the right is
8 Ostojic. To the left is also an old inhabitant of Vukovar, but I simply
9 can't remember his last name at present.
10 Q. Mr. Berghofer, the person you have identified with the moustache,
11 could you please state his name again for the record?
12 A. Plajner. He was with me in Mitrovica. He was in charge of the
13 room in Sremska Mitrovica. He was from Mitnica.
14 Q. When you say that he was in charge of the room, does that mean
15 that he was one of the guards or one of the soldiers or one of the
17 A. He was one of the inmates.
18 Q. Now I'd like for Mr. Laugel to play this clip to the end.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MS. CLANTON:
21 Q. Mr. Berghofer, do you recognise where this video was taken?
22 A. At Velepromet, on the right-hand side as you enter the compound.
23 It was a storage facility, and you had around 15 of such facilities.
24 They were containers, as it were.
25 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, at this time we'd like to tender
1 65 ter 04798.3 into evidence, please.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1076. Thank you.
4 MS. CLANTON:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, I'd like to leave the topic of Velepromet and
6 move onto another subject.
7 I want to ask you a small number of questions about the persons
8 who you saw in the hangar at Ovcara on the 20th of November, 1991.
9 First, I would like to ask you a few questions about a document,
10 and I would like to ask the Court Officer to please pull up 02640.1. I
11 would also like for the court usher to provide you with a hard copy,
13 Mr. Berghofer, do you recognise the handwriting on this document?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. And whose handwriting is it?
16 A. As far as I know, it's mine.
17 Q. Mr. Berghofer, if you could please look at the top of the page
18 and, again, towards the middle on the right and tell me if you recognise
19 the signature on that page.
20 A. Yes. It's mine.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, in the Mrksic case, you testified about a
22 similar list. This was at transcript page 5301 to 5303. I'd like to ask
23 you, if you can confirm, that the names that are listed on the left-hand
24 side of the page, from numbers 1 to 30, are the names that you provided
25 when you testified in the Mrksic case.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And now I see on the right-hand side that there are additional
3 names in your handwriting. Can you tell me, where did you see these
4 people who were listed on the right-hand side?
5 A. I saw them at Ovcara. Some of them were my neighbours and others
6 were my pals, and my peers. There is maybe 50 more of these, but I
7 couldn't remember all the family names.
8 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, when did you add the names to this list?
9 A. The ones on the right-hand side?
10 Q. Yes, the ones on the right-hand side.
11 A. This morning.
12 Q. And when you added the names to the list, did you do it from
14 A. That's right.
15 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time we'd like to ask that 65
16 ter 02640.1 be admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit 1077. Thank you.
19 MS. CLANTON:
20 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, I want to move on from the topic of Ovcara
21 and ask you a few questions about your imprisonment at Sremska Mitrovica.
22 You've already given evidence in the Mrskic proceedings, and we have a
23 limited time today, so I'm only going to ask you a few questions.
24 On what day did you arrive at Sremska Mitrovica?
25 A. On the 22nd of November, 1991.
1 Q. And on that day, where did you leave from?
2 A. From the Vukovar barracks.
3 Q. And how did you get from the Vukovar barracks to
4 Sremska Mitrovica?
5 A. By Cazmatrans bus. It's the big one. And if you're asking about
6 the trip from the barracks to Sremska Mitrovica, it was a red Cazmatrans
7 bus with the Bjelovar licence plates, a long bus.
8 Q. And approximately how many people were on this bus with you?
9 A. About 17 or 18, as far as I recall. Dr. Sadika boarded the bus
10 in Negoslavci. There was another woman, aged about 45, and -- that's the
11 two of them. I'm not sure about the third one, but there were three
13 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, you mentioned that someone boarded in
14 Negoslavci. Was this the only stop on the bus?
15 A. Yes. That was the only place where the bus stopped, at
16 Negoslavci. Dr. Sadika and Slobodan Nikolic got on the bus.
17 Q. And were all the passengers on the bus civilians?
18 A. All of them.
19 Q. Were there any other people on the bus who were not civilians?
20 A. No. The person who was in charge of the journey and then Djuro,
21 who I knew well, was the driver, and then there was this one who was
22 wearing a light green olive suit of sorts. It could be a dress suit and
23 not necessarily a military uniform. I'm sorry, so this last one, I'm
24 talking about, he was in charge of that trip.
25 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, did you feel that you were free to get off
1 the bus at any time before arriving at Sremska Mitrovica?
2 A. There was no possibility whatsoever for you to get out of that
4 Q. And in the Mrksic case, you described for the Court getting off
5 the bus and running the gauntlet, and this is at transcript page 5379.
6 I would like to know if prior to getting off the bus if you saw
7 anyone in Sremska Mitrovica area who was from the Vukovar area or the
8 surrounding villages of Vukovar?
9 A. As far as I remember, next to Sremska Mitrovica there was a
10 school or a gym. I saw a great many of our women there, and among them,
11 there was Dusko Ostojic. They were circling round that gym. They were
13 Q. Mr. Berghofer, to clarify for the record, was Dusko Ostojic a man
14 or a woman?
15 A. A man. Dusko Ostojic. The father of the man whom I recognised
16 in the hangar in Vukovar who was standing on the right-hand side with
18 Q. And approximately how old was Dusko Ostojic at the time?
19 A. He must have been 65 or 66.
20 Q. And as I said before, you've testified about the gauntlet and the
21 beatings. I'd like for you to briefly describe for the Court the
22 mistreatment and the injuries you received on the 22nd of November, 1991.
23 A. I don't think it will be possible to describe it that way. But
24 let me just say this: Horrible, horrible, horrible.
25 Q. Were you injured in these beatings?
1 A. Well, I have difficulties with my leg to this day. It's
2 thrombosis. But I wasn't the only one. They -- there wasn't just one
3 man who was beating us. They were all beating us. But there was this
4 one man, Dusko, he was very much into beating. You couldn't even compare
5 him to a lion. He was beating us even harder than that.
6 Q. And after this beating, did you receive medical treatment for
7 your injuries?
8 A. Well, there was Gajic who was putting bandages on -- on me. I
9 seemed -- I was all black and blue, like I'd been sun-bathing in the
10 Hawaii days. I was barefoot for four or five months. My knees are no
11 good. I can't watch -- I can't read newspapers. And I cannot bear to
12 watch movies about the war. Well, that's all. I apologise.
13 Q. Mr. Berghofer, this person named Gajic, who was he?
14 A. He was a friend of mine from Mitnica. He was also one of the
15 defenders of Vukovar.
16 Q. Mr. Berghofer, you described in your Mrksic testimony that a man
17 named Soljic was killed, and this is at transcript page 5380 and 5474. I
18 want to ask you: How was Soljic killed?
19 A. When we got onto the handball court, we had to take our clothes
20 off. Previously, we had been beaten as we were going through the
21 gauntlet. They forced us to strip ourselves naked. They were beating
22 us, especially Dusko who was savagely beating us, and he must have hit
23 the man pretty hard because he could not be roused again. For instance,
24 I fainted on a couple of occasion but I always came to.
25 This man, Niko Soljic, was not panic-stricken at all. Now, there
1 was this one man who was mocking us together with Dusko, whereas there
2 was this other man who told Dusko, How can you treat them this way? And
3 then they took my shoes away. So all of the four and a half months I
4 spent at Sremska Mitrovica I was bare foot.
5 Q. How close were you to this person who died, Niko Soljic, and how
6 far away were you sitting or standing from where he was?
7 A. Right next to me.
8 Q. And you mentioned that yourself and other people fainted from the
9 beatings. How did you find out that Soljic was dead and it was not just
10 that he had fainted?
11 A. Well, since I would get up during the beatings. But I would like
12 to note that they did not beat the people on the right as much as they
13 beat us. Like this one who attacked me. And then when we were supposed
14 to go upstairs, I was carried, but then this man never got up. So, of
15 course, he froze. That's why Dusko said, Look, this guy had lots of
16 ice-cream to eat.
17 Q. Mr. Berghofer, did any person at the prison ever talk to you
18 about Mr. Soljic being killed?
19 A. Not with me.
20 Q. Did you ever hear people talking about Mr. Soljic's killing?
21 A. I don't know. I know this young man, Ularik, a neighbour, gave a
22 statement. They were related in some way, and he went out there to give
23 some statement.
24 Q. And what do you mean by giving a statement. What was Ularik
25 asked to do you?
1 A. Well, you know how things go. That he fell and died. I don't
2 know what the exact text was that the little guy signed over there. I
3 don't know what they asked him. I know that they took him away once so
4 that he would give some statement.
5 Q. When you say "the little guy," who are you referring to?
6 A. Well, there was this little guy in the same room where I was. It
7 was a room 3 by 3. He was like 16 years old. That's why I'm saying this
8 little guy. He lived in Slavija, in that building.
9 Q. And just to clarify, what is the surname of the person that you
10 referred to as the little guy?
11 A. Ularik is his last name.
12 Q. And you've said that Ularik was taken and that there was text
13 that he signed and a statement. Can you tell me what that was about?
14 A. Well, nothing more than that. It's not that he talked about it.
15 It's not that I listened properly. I didn't really have an opportunity
16 to listen properly because there were 152 of us in the room, or 154.
17 Q. When he was taken - and I know that you don't know all the
18 details because the room was very crowded as you say - but when Ularik,
19 this young guy, was taken, and asked to give a statement, what event was
20 this statement about?
21 A. Well, first, the question was, who knew him. And then the young
22 boy said that they were related or that somebody was somebody's
23 godparent, and then I guess he went to their office.
24 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, when you say that the first question was who
25 knew him, who are you referring to when you say "him"?
1 A. Well, the late Soljic, Niko.
2 Q. And just to clarify what you've just said. Can you confirm that
3 you've told us that the question was asked who was related to the late
4 Niko Soljic and that is why this person named Ularik was giving a
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Berghofer, a few moments ago you, you described the room
8 that you were in. You said it was room 3-3. Can you describe the size
9 of the room and the number of people who were kept there?
10 A. I know there were 154 or 152 of us. And they never knew exactly
11 how many there were. And every day they came to count us. They would
12 put us on one side, and then we'd run over to the other side, and then
13 they'd count again. And that room was, well, say, 12 metres, 13 metres
14 by 5 and a half or 6 metres. It's hard to say. It's a big room. There
15 weren't any beds there. We slept there but I could personally could not
16 lie on my back, but also the people who were next to me couldn't either.
17 We were packed like sardines. You know, the fish.
18 Q. Yes. Mr. Berghofer, how often were you able to shower at
19 Sremska Mitrovica?
20 A. I am sorry. What do you mean, "shower"? There was water. I
21 should note that. There was central heating. I'd like to note that
22 Sremska Mitrovica was empty as far as that facility was concerned, that
23 camp, prison, whatever. And then it was only once that I went to take a
24 shower. When I came to the room that was 2 by 1 metres, but that was 45
25 days later.
1 Q. Mr. Berghofer, if you remember, can you provide the Court with
2 the names of some of the people who you remember being with you? Just a
4 A. Well, I can. There was this Plajner. Well, there was lots of
5 people. Buljan, Zeljko. He was there.
6 Q. Mr. Berghofer, was there anyone who you had seen at Ovcara who
7 was with you at Sremska Mitrovica?
8 A. In that room, yes. There was Cakalic, there was Guncevic, and
9 there was myself.
10 Q. Were there any women and children in this room?
11 A. No, no. No. Not in our room. No one.
12 Q. Were there women and children in another room?
13 A. Yes. I do apologise. Well, there was this young boy in the room
14 3 by 3, say, he was like 12 years old. He was there with his father.
15 They did want to send him home, however he didn't want to leave without
16 his father. And there were women there because there was this woman that
17 kept shouting, Daddy, where are you? Come help.
18 Q. Mr. Berghofer, in your Mrksic testimony you said that
19 Goran Hadzic came one time to the prison and that he said that it was
20 stinking very badly, that there was a very strong stench, and this is at
21 transcript page 5381. I'd like to ask you: What was causing the smell
22 in the room?
23 A. It is true that Mr. Hadzic came to the 3 by 3 room, but it's also
24 true that we stank. I have to state it in such vulgar terms because
25 simply we hadn't had a shower for three months. And also a month and a
1 half after that.
2 Q. When you say "a month and a half after that," do you mean a month
3 and a half -- what month and a half time-period are you referring to?
4 A. Well, I'm calculating it now. From the 22nd of November, say,
5 until the 15th of January. I'm just speaking sort of off the cuff now.
6 It is a -- it is correct. I mean, the first date. But then the second
7 one, was it the 20th or the 15th of February 1992? But then all of a
8 sudden, we could bathe when we were in the 2 by 1 room.
9 Q. Okay, Mr. Berghofer. I'd like to ask you at about the time that
10 Mr. Hadzic came to the prison, what was the condition of the prisoners in
11 that room.
12 A. Well, you see, they were being taken out for interrogations all
13 the time. There were also younger men. That's why they had to go.
14 Whereas, we got some old uniforms of the former JNA, and we had to wear
15 them. These were trousers and jackets.
16 Q. Mr. Berghofer, approximately what time, what month, do you
17 believe that Mr. Hadzic came to Sremska Mitrovica? Not an exact date but
18 an approximate date.
19 A. December, the 20th or the 21st. In 1991.
20 Q. And how did you know that the person who was there was
21 Goran Hadzic? How did you recognise him.
22 A. Well, Mr. Hadzic knows very well where he had his picture taken.
23 Starting from Plitvice, although he was about 500 kilometres away from
24 his own town, Vukovar. And now we call that bloody Easter, we, the
25 people of Vukovar call it that. And that's when there were pictures of
1 Goran Hadzic all over. And then I also knew him by sight as a younger
2 man. We never exchanged greetings. But I was a guest at Bobota and I
3 think I saw him watching a game or something like that. But that was in
5 Q. And at the time that he was in the prison, do you know what
6 position he held?
7 A. I did not know then. I cannot say.
8 Q. And when he was in the prison, how far was he standing from where
9 you were?
10 A. Right next to me. Right next to me. So the man came, and we all
11 gathered around and we wanted to hear what he had to say. Can I tell you
12 what he said?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. He came in and, of course, he was wearing a military uniform.
15 Somehow it was different from the other SNB ones. He looked left and
16 right, and he said this: "Why don't you let these people go home?" And
17 after that, he left.
18 Q. Mr. Berghofer, was there anybody else standing with Mr. Hadzic at
19 this time?
20 A. My neighbour, Rajak, as far as I can remember. He wore a sort of
21 captain's uniform. He was a young boy, 26, 27. Very nice uniform, brand
22 new. I think he had the rank of captain. But it's been a long time.
23 It's hard to remember. Young man; however, his house is the fourth house
24 next to mine, so that's how I know him.
25 Q. And a moment ago, you've told us what you remember Goran Hadzic
1 saying when he was standing next to you in the Sremska Mitrovica prison.
2 I want to ask you if this was the only time that you ever heard
3 Goran Hadzic talking about prisoners, including those at
4 Sremska Mitrovica.
5 A. Yes. That's the only thing I heard coming from his mouth. He
6 and I, both of us, living creatures. That's it.
7 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I didn't mean to limit to what you heard him say
8 when he was physically in your presence. Did you ever hear this kind of
9 statement from Hadzic, not necessarily when he was standing next to you
10 as a living creature talking to you.
11 A. Oh, yes. I had already been set free and for a year and that
12 place where those six buses were, when they were leaving the hospital,
13 that's the street that was called Bozidar Adzija or Sapudl, and then this
14 journalist, well, usually it was the Novi Sad television that made an
15 effort to take pictures of us and interview him. And this is what he
16 said, at least that's what it looked like on the picture: "All of those
17 Ustashas should be returned so that the Serb people could try them here
18 in Vukovar."
19 Q. Mr. Berghofer, just to clarify, when did you see this footage,
20 this journalist you've described speaking to Hadzic? When did you see
21 this interview?
22 A. Well, let's say, 1993. End of 1992. Let me say it wasn't only I
23 who bought a TV set. I imagine some of my friends also had TV sets so we
24 saw that, but I cannot tell you what date it was. At any rate, he was on
25 TV several times so the Croatian TV kept replaying that.
1 Q. Mr. Berghofer, you've just stated, and I'm going to say this
2 quotes, "that --" this is at transcript page 29, line 23:
3 "That all of those Ustashas should be returned so the Serb people
4 could try them here in Vukovar."
5 When you heard this, what did it make you think about what you
6 heard at Sremska Mitrovica?
7 A. Well, in Sremska Mitrovica, well, sort of in a friendly way when
8 he saw how miserable we were. How badly we stank. He was among us and
9 he was aware of that, that we were not all war criminals. Not everybody
10 who was in that room was a war criminal. But then there was this other
11 statement when he was his own people, and it wouldn't have been
12 convenient for him to defend some Croats because he is under pressure
13 from his open people, so these are two completely different opinions and
14 two completely different utterances.
15 MS. CLANTON: No further questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. My name is
21 Zoran Zivanovic, and I am Defence counsel for Mr. Hadzic in these
23 A. Good morning. Pleased to meet you.
24 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you in relation to your
25 testimony today.
1 First of all, I would like to draw your attention to this video
2 footage that was shown to you by the Prosecutor. It's page 14 of our
3 transcript. And you had the opportunity of seeing two women and a young
4 man in civilian clothing talking to soldiers, people in JNA uniforms.
5 And they were referring to the names of different persons who had
6 allegedly done some bad things to them.
7 Now, this is what I'd be interested in: Among these people in
8 uniform, did you recognise anyone?
9 A. I cannot guarantee anything, because you know what? As soon as
10 you put a uniform on, you can no longer recognise a man. And, you know,
11 all of these were young men and they could have been my sons. They were
12 25 or 27 at the time.
13 Q. At any rate, may I conclude that you did not recognise anyone who
14 was wearing JNA uniforms in that footage talking to those two woman and
15 the young man?
16 A. No, no. Only those women. Had I been able to watch the footage
17 longer, maybe I could have deciphered some more. But all these are
18 younger people. Well, I certainly know their mothers and fathers; but,
19 as for them, I cannot say.
20 Q. There's another thing I wanted to take a look at. Actually, I'd
21 be interested in hearing whether you had an opportunity of reading the
22 list of missing persons from Vukovar, from the Vukovar Hospital, after
23 you had been released; that is to say, when all of this was over and
24 until you testified later?
25 A. Never, until then, except when I was in Belgrade with
1 Mr. Vesko Krstajic. I had to put circles around those of the names who I
2 had recognised.
3 Q. I'm asking you that precisely because now when you communicated
4 with the Prosecution, there was that list that you had compiled earlier
5 on and you added a few names to that list, I think five or six names, and
6 I'm simply interested in how that happened. How come you remembered
7 those names after 20 years and even more than 20 years?
8 A. Mr. Zivanovic, if you knew how vividly I still have them in my
9 mind. I still see their images. But I know Pinter, that's the first one
10 I added. He was a friend of mine for 40 years, I mean born then. Then
11 this Misel. I kept talking about Misel -- I mean, sorry, I kept talking
12 about a French man. But I thought that that was a nickname, "Francuz,"
13 frenchman - I know this is not your question - but when Kemo was looking
14 for him. And now as Simunic, Pero, is concerned, I think that he was on
15 that first list way back. And then Jarabak, I remember that name.
16 Stanko Duvnjak was a policeman. Then Vukojevic, Slaven. Then the young
17 Zivkovic. Whereas, this Kacic, he was 15 or 16 years old. They simply
18 grabbed him from his mother because -- in hospital because he was a
19 well-developed boy and they put him on the bus.
20 Believe me, Mr. Zivanovic, there's more of them, but I'm always
21 surprised when I come here. Believe me, I'm never prepared. Now this
22 list that I'm holding in my hands, it's Mr. Moore who forced me. I mean,
23 in two and a half minutes I had to scribble this down, although there is
24 this name -- actually, there is this list I have at home, when I came
25 home, 1991, 1992, when I came from prison.
1 Q. Another thing. On page 21 of the transcript today, you said that
2 all the people who were on that bus that went to Sremska Mitrovica, that
3 all of them were civilians. As I read your testimony in the Mrksic case,
4 I note that you said there, among other things, that were in the
5 204th Brigade, and you also said what battalion, what company you
6 belonged to. So now I'd be interested in hearing in whether there were
7 other people who were in a position that was similar to yours, among the
8 people that you marked as civilians.
9 A. Mr. Zivanovic, you know what it was like in our situation in
10 Vukovar. Whoever had been in a cellar made sure that he got the status
11 of a defender of Croatia. Ljubo --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.
13 THE WITNESS: -- was on the bus and he managed to get that status,
14 and then also Zeljko Buljan, and he had allegedly even been wounded.
15 Sinisa Veber also managed to get that. Although, believe me, when I look
16 at these names here, some of them didn't even bring a glass of water
17 either to one or the other. If nothing else, at least in the beginning I
18 participated at the radio station and then in logistics. And then there
19 are others, too. Vili Karlovic, for instance. He is from Zagreb. He
20 came to help out. He came from Zagreb. He's a participant too, isn't
22 Then who else? Let me try to remember now. Guncevic, Stjepan.
23 And you need an automatic rifle to get him to come and testify, but he
24 has the status of a Croatian defender. Whoever survived Vukovar was
25 given the status of a defender of Croatia.
1 Q. Now could you please clarify this for us. Does that mean that
2 people who were civilians who did not take part in any military units in
3 any way, did they -- or, rather, were they included in the 204th Brigade
4 and its different companies and battalions, or were these people who had
5 been actually deployed in these units but did not take part in direct
6 combat or, rather, were not at the front line where the fighting took
8 A. Well, as far as I know even this young boy, Ularik, aged 16, even
9 he was a defender of Vukovar.
10 But let me tell you once again, Mr. Zivanovic, maybe these
11 people, I mean, maybe I underestimated them now and maybe I offended them
12 in some way now. I didn't mean to. But maybe they were also involved,
13 maybe they were engaged by some of their commanders. Maybe they were
14 supposed to bring water at least or food.
15 So there's always some work drive that was under way during the
16 defence of Vukovar.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you. I think this is time for a break,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Indeed. Thank you Mr. Zivanovic.
20 Mr. Berghofer, we take our first break now. We'll come back at
21 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of court. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, there is Prosecution motion to add
25 missing pages to exhibit numbers 987 to 992. Adding missing pages.
1 Could you give us your position or tell us when you could give us your
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No objection, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: No objection. Thank you. Then the motion is
5 granted, as prayed. Thank you.
6 Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Please proceed.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you spoke about the gauntlet that you
13 and the others who got off the bus had to pass through when you arrived
14 in Sremska Mitrovica. Is my understanding correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you didn't know the people who were there, are you able to say
17 what the formation was that they belonged to? Did they wear uniforms?
18 Were they in any way identifiable?
19 A. Well, they had their uniforms as prison guards, as doormen. They
20 were people working for the Sremska Mitrovica prison.
21 Q. You also spoke of the beatings that the inmates at
22 Sremska Mitrovica suffered. You also mentioned Dusko. Presumably he is
23 from Vukovar. That's where you know him from.
24 A. Mr. Zivanovic, I didn't know a single person there. I wouldn't
25 be able to tell you that it was Dusko had it not been for his friend who,
1 when he saw Dusko beat the other one unconscious and when I fainted, he
2 said to him, "Dusko, how can you act in this way?" And this was only
3 through hearing him say this, Mr. Zivanovic, that I knew that the man was
4 called Dusko.
5 Q. Tell me, were they also prison guards or were they some other
7 A. They were prison guards.
8 Q. I'd like to ask you about the video footage you viewed after your
9 release from prison when you got a TV set and, according to you, it would
10 have been 1992 or 1993.
11 You said that you saw Goran Hadzic being interviewed. You also
12 mentioned that it was close to the place where these six buses were, and
13 my understanding is that this should have been in Vukovar; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. We don't have that video footage, but we do have footage which
16 shows roughly what you were talking about. However, the footage was
17 taken in Sid. That's why I'd like to ask you the following: Are you
18 sure that the footage was made in Vukovar and not in Sid, the one you
19 were referring to?
20 A. Well, you see, Mr. Zivanovic, we were discussing the street where
21 the buses used to stand, the street next to the hospital, and we used to
22 call it next to "Crvani Magazin." This was roughly 200 metres away from
23 the hospital. It was just that street where buses used to stand back in
24 the day.
25 Q. In other words, you mean to say that this footage was filmed in
1 that same place where the buses used to stand, although, of course, it
2 was filmed sometime after that event with the buses.
3 A. Precisely.
4 Q. Based on what you heard Mr. Hadzic say, tell us, please, did
5 Goran Hadzic say in that footage, if you remember, that these people who
6 committed crimes should be tried in Vukovar and that, in the second and
7 third instance, they should be tried in Yugoslavia?
8 A. Well, he didn't say that much. It was just two or three points
9 that he made. He said that these people should be brought back. These
10 Ustashas should be brought back to Vukovar so that the Serbian people can
11 put them on trial. So that's roughly what I heard. But, you know, this
12 was quite a few years ago.
13 Q. Did you say this was a few years ago or quite a -- a few, many
14 years ago?
15 A. No. Well, I -- it's been a long time. What I wanted to say was
16 that this wasn't the only footage of Mr. Hadzic giving a statement to a
17 team, a TV crew from Serbia or elsewhere. There were a great many other
18 such clips on the Croatian TV.
19 Q. Do you recall whether in that same footage Mr. Hadzic said, in
20 addition to what you told us, that it is better to release 100 people who
21 are guilty than convict one innocent man?
22 A. No, I didn't hear that.
23 Q. This is your fifth time testifying before the Tribunal. A couple
24 of days ago, you were able to have a look at your testimony from the
25 Mrksic case.
1 I'm interested in one portion of your evidence in that case where
2 you were put a question and gave an answer. This is Exhibit 4460, pages
3 67 and 69. This was your testimony on the 3rd of March.
4 You said that nobody from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic
5 of Croatia prepared you for testimony; do you recall that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us, in relation to your testimony in The Hague - and
8 I don't mean today, I mean previously - did you have any contacts at all
9 with the Ministry of Defence of Croatia?
10 A. As far as I remember, and I remember well, never. No, not at any
12 Q. According to the information that we have, your first contact
13 with the OTP and their investigators was in 1994/1995. Am I right?
14 A. Yes, yes. That was in the Vinkovci police building or whatever
15 you wish to call them. It wasn't something that anybody dared talk
16 about, but I did talk to them.
17 Q. When you say that it wasn't something that one was allowed to
18 talk about, do you mean that there was somebody forbidding that?
19 A. I don't know if it was Mr. Williams or Niemann. Please don't
20 hold me to that. My state had no business interfering with my testimony
21 in The Hague. It was a public secret. I'll tell you that I didn't -- I
22 wasn't allowed to say if I had told these gentlemen anything, because my
23 state did not have the right to put any sort of pressure on me when it
24 came to this Tribunal in The Hague.
25 Q. Is my understanding of what you're saying correct: Does this
1 mean that these two persons from the Tribunal told you that you should
2 not be talking about this with people from the Croatian state
4 A. Well, yes. Roughly along those lines. How can I explain this to
5 you? This was not an issue to be bandied about. It was nobody's
6 business to advise me on this, and if I recall correctly they came back
7 for four visits. They even came to see me at my home, and on their way
8 there was this accident that they had with a tram.
9 Q. And in 1996 you gave a statement before this Tribunal here in
10 The Hague for the first time; is that right?
11 A. Yes. Roughly like that.
12 Q. You see, we do have this statement of yours. This is
13 Exhibit 4455. It was given on the 27th of March, 1996. And I suppose
14 you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You see on page 17 in e-court of this statement of yours, you
17 said that at one point a high official, a senior official came to the
18 hangar where you were who mistreated some of the prisoners. And you
19 described what it was exactly that he was doing. This isn't important.
20 But you did say that was a high-ranking official. You didn't name him
21 though. Do you recall that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your later testimonies, you claimed that this high-ranking
24 official was Slavko Dokmanovic; do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell me what was the reason why you did not say that it
2 was Slavko Dokmanovic, if you knew that it was him, already back in -- on
3 the 27th of March, 1996?
4 A. In fact, I would need the assistance of -- of the Judge now, in
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Berghofer.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I allowed to say?
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're allowed to speak, yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Zivanovic, at the time I was
10 giving the statement, I was told that I should not name the high-ranking
11 official at that point who was seen at Ovcara. Rather, when the cameras
12 were turned off and the journalists stepped out, they came back into the
13 room and said, Mr. Berghofer, who was the high-ranking official whose
14 name you did not say a moment ago?
15 And then I said, Slavko Dokmanovic. And it all took place on
16 that same day, at an interval of 30 minutes.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And can you tell who was it who said that you shouldn't name the
19 person, that you should withhold it from the Court?
20 A. I think it was the Judge in charge. It was a public hearing, the
21 journalists were present, and I suppose that it was done so that this
22 would not go out into the public domain, that it would remain hidden
23 within the four walls.
24 Q. Can you tell me when was it that, as you said, the Judge in
25 charge told you to proceed that way?
1 A. Those who conducted the interview with me knew this. And before
2 I got into the courtroom, they told me that I should not mention him.
3 That's why I referred to him as a high-ranking official from the
4 municipality of Vukovar. And that was the end of that quotation.
5 And then, 30 minutes later, when the room or the hall, whatever
6 you wish to call it, was emptied of journalists and TV people, I gave
7 that testimony that you have in front of you now.
8 Q. You know, I'm a bit puzzled by your explanation. Normally
9 confidential information is given in closed sessions that would exclude
10 the presence of journalists and the public in general. But this is your
12 A. Well, that's it. That's precisely it.
13 Q. You see, this is what I find odd about it. And, please, if you
14 can explain it.
15 On the 27th of March, 1996, the transcript of this statement of
16 yours, page 17, before you gave the statement you took an oath that you
17 would be telling the truth and not withhold any information in response
18 to questions. I wonder now, that after having taken the oath, you
19 adhered to this piece of advice, whoever it was who gave it to you, that
20 this was -- who told you that this was something that shouldn't reach the
21 public and should stay in closed session?
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please.
23 Mr. Zivanovic what do you read in -- in the oath? What do you
24 read -- read in the oath?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see that he was sworn.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is the first -- the first page of the -- of
3 this evidence.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you read it for me, please, rather than.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: From the transcript, no.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, okay.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: There is --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's -- it's -- the --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers].
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's the transcript in the court? It's the
11 transcript of a court session?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, yes.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Okay. But then is there anything --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is there anything --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This is 4455.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is there anything specific in the oath about not
18 withholding information?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know, but --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, that's what you're telling the witness.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I -- as far as I know, it is usual for any sworn,
22 for any solemn declaration, or -- or maybe I -- I misunderstood it.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, the question is -- the question is what a
24 witness can understand when reading that solemn declaration.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah. I'll clarify it with him, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Witness, could you please tell us whether you remember whether
4 you gave a solemn declaration on that occasion, the occasion that I was
5 asking you about. Did you state that you will say the truth? Do you
6 remember that?
7 A. I remember that, but it wasn't this room. It was a bigger room.
8 And there was glass also. And there were journalists behind me.
9 Q. Do you remember the declaration? Can you remember the wording of
10 that declaration?
11 A. Tell me what declaration you're talking about?
12 Q. That you will be telling the truth. Were you asked to take a
13 solemn oath to say that you would speak the truth?
14 A. Yes, I remember that. Just like now. But it was only 30
15 minutes. Help me with this: They had to turn off the TV cameras to be
16 there without journalists. I mean, I'm just there to listen, not to
18 Q. Tell me, how did you understand this solemn declaration of yours
19 to tell the truth? Did that mean that if you knew certain information
20 that is important, and that information is that you recognised a man who
21 tortured prisoners there, was your understanding that you were not
22 supposed to say that? Did you think that that would fit into this solemn
23 declaration that you took?
24 A. Well, yes, it does fit in. I don't see the difference between 25
25 minutes, 30 minutes. I point it out. That's what they told me. Until
1 the cameras went off and until the journalists were no longer there. I
2 mean, how I can explain this to you?
3 I wasn't a secret witness. Things were normal, out in the open.
4 However, in order for the big public not to be reached, well, I told you
5 what happened. A high official from the municipality of Vukovar was
6 there. And, before that, they told me that I should not say that until
7 that happened so that oath of mine, as far as I know, includes both one
8 and the other. Mr. Zivanovic, there's a 30-minute difference. Not six
10 Q. Can we now look at 2298. That is number 3 from the Defence list.
11 You see, this is a document of the Ministry of Defence of the
12 Office of the Assistant Minister. And you see your name and surname
13 there as the subject of this document, and it has to do with some
14 information concerning your testimony.
15 Can we take a look at page 2 now. Page 2 of this document.
16 You see what it says here. It says that during 1994 and 1995,
17 there are names of persons who spoke to you, and it says what was
18 discussed on that occasion. It also says -- actually, there's that name,
19 Dokmanovic. It also says what happened in 1996, that you had telephone
20 communication with The Hague. Then the content of this communication.
21 Details of your departure and so on.
22 So I'd like to know whether you provided the Ministry of Defence
23 with this information.
24 A. No, no. Look, I was surprised when I saw this. Something
25 similar. And I thought that, to this day, my state did not know that I
1 was in The Hague because I did not contact anyone. It was only with your
2 colleagues from Belgrade that I had to go to Zagreb, I think three times,
3 or twice, where I said the same thing about Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic. So I
4 mean, I didn't understand you. I didn't understand you. I mean, had you
5 told me, telephone, Zagreb, The Hague, I mean, I never had anything to do
6 with that. I just repeat who was with us at Ovcara, who beat us, if I
7 recognised that, and then I have been saying one and the same thing all
8 the time.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move onto the next page,
11 Q. You see here it says that you were heard on the 28th of March and
12 that before you entered the courtroom, names are mentioned here, some
13 names have been crossed out, and you were told that during the first part
14 of your questioning you should not mention the name of Slavko Dokmanovic
15 because journalists were present. That is precisely what you have been
16 telling us now.
17 Tell us whether you conveyed this information to the Ministry of
18 Defence of Croatia?
19 A. No. Because there are some things here that are not correct.
20 Q. Could you tell us what is incorrect?
21 A. Well, look what it says here. Cakalic until he fainted. After
22 an hour, Berghofer, along with eight other men was taken away from
23 Ovcara, whereas others were thought to be in a position to commit
24 suicide. He mentioned Emil Cakalic and Guncevic, Stjepan, who is at the
25 blue lagoon, "Plava Laguna."
1 Well, look, it's true. We know all the time -- we've always
2 known who survived Ovcara. I don't know where you got this and I don't
3 know where the gentleman from The Hague got this. I mean, I really don't
4 know. But, look, I co-operate with them. Mr. Williams, it says here,
5 well, yes, I gave statements, and I noted that the gentlemen came to
6 Vinkovci about three times while I was a displaced person, and then they
7 allegedly came to Osijek from the Tribunal in The Hague, from their
8 office, I don't know how to put this. So there are many things here that
9 I do not think are in dispute at all.
10 Q. All right. Thank you.
11 A. You're welcome.
12 Q. We're going to look at another document.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is the next document -- or,
14 rather, it is document 2232. It's the next document on our list. That's
15 not the document. That's for sure. 2322; I beg your pardon.
16 Q. This is also a letter that the Ministry of Defence sent to
17 President Tudjman in 1998. And it refers to the activities that were
18 taken with a view to protecting the interests of the Republic of Croatia
19 before the International Criminal Tribunal.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
21 MS. CLANTON: Excuse me, could you please direct me to where this
22 is on the Defence list?
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is document number 2.
24 MS. CLANTON: On the list that I see, that's 65 ter 1535 which I
25 believe is a different document.
1 Perhaps the Registrar can tell me if I'm incorrect.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe I have not updated list, but it must be on
3 our list. 2322.
4 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I don't see the document on the
5 Defence list that was sent through at the beginning of the cross. I just
6 want to --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I -- for myself, I'm trying to find the Defence
8 list, and I don't find it.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So it is not on this list, Mr. Zivanovic
11 [Microphone not activated]?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Not at the last list, yes.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Not at the last list, a previous one?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm very sorry. Not at this last one, at a
16 previous one?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It is -- it is an error in -- from our
18 part. Okay.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
20 MS. CLANTON: This is a 35-page document that we haven't seen on
21 any list, and I would ask that we have the opportunity to look at it
22 before he is able to ask the witness about it because it should have been
23 notified to us at the beginning of his testimony this morning.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would after the break be okay?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No -- I would just say that I would refer just to
1 one sentence of this document, not a whole.
2 MS. CLANTON: I think it would be more appropriate for us to be
3 able to see the context of the one sentence. Having not seen the
4 document, I would like to review it.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would after the break be okay?
6 MS. CLANTON: Sure.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would you wait with your question until after the
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- break --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- Mr. Zivanovic?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: However, it is the last issue on -- in my
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's the last issue in your cross-examination.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which would take how long? Just a few minutes?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Five minutes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Five minutes. Maybe --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: And then what do we expect for re-direct?
24 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I have to consult with my colleagues.
25 I don't think we would have much, if anything, on re-direct. I would
1 still, though, like the opportunity to look at the document even if it --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Shall we take a half an hour break now
3 then and come back for that last question of -- or, no. I first -- I
4 should ask first do we have another witness?
5 MR. STRINGER: Yes. The next witness is here and ready.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. STRINGER: My microphone is not activated.
8 Mr. President, I'm informed that the next witness is here and
9 she's ready, and so if we could take the half-hour break now, I'd suggest
10 we could come back and take the last few minutes to complete the witness
11 and then continue with the next one.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we'll take the break.
14 Mr. Witness, we'll take an early break, come back at 12.10. The
15 court usher will escort you out of court. Thank you.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.39 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton, while we're waiting for the witness,
21 the translation problem you mentioned in the -- in the proofing note. We
22 don't have that on the record yet; right? I mean, the -- the -- the
23 right translation? How -- how can we have that on the record?
24 Eventually by tendering the proofing note, but I don't know whether the
25 Defence will object to that?
1 MS. CLANTON: Mr. President, Mr. Stringer would like to address
2 you on this point.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
4 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, what we could propose to do is if the
5 Defence is in agreement about the correction that needs to be made,
6 because we've indicated precisely what that is, and we can -- perhaps
7 they can listen to the audio, if they would like to do so themselves.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 MR. STRINGER: If the Defence is in agreement, then perhaps we
10 could read into the record now, or today, or tomorrow, what the parties
11 believe the correction needs to be. Ultimately because it's an official
12 transcript from a different trial and the transcript from the other trial
13 will have to be corrected by CLSS, so that once the translation is -- or
14 the transcript is officially corrected, then we can, perhaps, substitute
15 the corrected transcript for the one that's now in evidence, and for
16 the -- in the meantime, until that takes place, if the parties are in
17 agreement as to the language at issue, that could be read into the
18 record, just as a way to put it as a placeholder.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: I understand you to say, Mr. Stringer, that,
20 basically, the issue isn't ready yet to be read into or, whatever, into
21 the record to be on the record. You still need -- or the Defence needs
22 time to check your -- your translation.
23 MR. STRINGER: Yes. We haven't heard from the Defence, and I
24 don't even know -- we could -- we could provide them with the audio now,
25 but I don't know that they've had a chance to listen to the audio or to
1 the particular segment yet.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic -- sorry.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We could check it this afternoon, or tomorrow,
4 and got back to you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. That's good. Thank you.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I failed to introduce a member of
8 our team, Ms. Lea Bataillard, who joined us meanwhile.
9 And, also, I would tender the document used with the witness. It
10 is from our list, 2298.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit D31. Thank you.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, I will now show you another document by the Ministry of
15 Defence. That's 2322. Dated the 4th of June, 1998.
16 It's a report by the Ministry of Defence addressed to the
17 president, Franjo Tudjman, as you will see, about the activities
18 undertaken by the ministry in order to protect the interests of the
19 Republic of Croatia vis-a-vis the ICTY in The Hague.
20 We will look at one short portion of the report. This is
21 paragraph 5 at page 14 in the B/C/S version, which is page 22 in the
22 English version.
23 Right at the top of the page is paragraph 5, that's in the B/C/S
24 version, which reads that:
25 "The service participated in the preparation of Prosecution
1 witnesses in the event that the indictment against Mrksic, Radic, and
2 Sljivancanin would be confirmed and in the trial against Dokmanovic,
3 (Vilim Karlovic, D Berghofer, Marin Vidic, aka Bili)."
4 I will go back to the question that I put to you once already.
5 Before the 4th of June, 1998, did you have any contacts with the Ministry
6 of Defence and did it prepare you for your testimonies in these two
8 A. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Zivanovic, no, never. I had
9 never been together with Vilim Karlovic and Marin Vidic, Bili.
10 Q. Would you please repeat the last names that you mentioned. Now
11 it is all right.
12 You see, it was not my understanding on the basis of this text
13 that you were all at the Ministry of Defence at the same time. Rather,
14 what they say here is that they participated in the preparation of
15 Prosecution witnesses. They named the three of you, which does not mean
16 to say that all three of you weren't present there at the same time.
17 They could have been working with each of you separately.
18 A. Should I answer?
19 Q. Please, go ahead.
20 A. Thank you. See, not even my surname is properly spelled here.
21 My assumption is that some of them referred to my name as well. From
22 what I remember, the Ministry of Defence does not even know that I'm
23 alive. Who -- what would I be -- why would I be of any importance to
24 Zagreb? So I really don't know what this is all about.
25 Q. Very well. In that case, I thank you for your answers. I have
1 no further questions for you.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Only first page of this document and the
3 paragraph 5 of -- 5 of the same document. Not whole document.
4 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour?
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Clanton.
6 MS. CLANTON: I believe that Defence counsel has used the
7 document and in the record it shows that he has asked him a question
8 about that one line, which has been asked and answered. I don't believe
9 that the foundation has been laid to admit this document into evidence.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In our submission it is impeachment material. It
12 is very relevant for assessment of witness -- witness testimony and
14 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, the witness has confirmed that he
15 never seen the document and he doesn't know anything about it. He was
16 asked about the one proposition, and he answered a question about it.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, rather than impose on you to file
20 a new and -- new document, we think that everything you want to tender is
21 on the record, so we don't need the document anymore. So we will not
22 admit -- yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In that case, I withdraw my -- my request.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. And you finished your
25 cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
3 Ms. Clanton, re-direct?
4 MS. CLANTON: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Re-examination by Ms. Clanton:
6 Q. Mr. Berghofer, earlier today Defence counsel asked you questions
7 about a hearing that you participated in in 1996, in March of 1996. This
8 was a hearing what was held in The Hague, and you described for the
9 Chamber that when you came for this hearing, you testified, and it was in
10 public and that there were reporters there; is that correct?
11 A. You mean for this Tribunal here? In 1996?
12 Q. Yes. At this Tribunal in The Hague.
13 A. In relation to Slavko Dokmanovic?
14 Q. In March of 1996, when you came here for this hearing that
15 Defence counsel asked you about and you said that there was a senior Serb
16 official present in the hangar in Ovcara. Do you recall, as you've
17 stated, I want to make sure that you remember that this was a public
18 hearing and that there were reporters there for the first part of it?
19 A. Yes, it was public. The room was big, but that the Defence
20 counsel asked me that, that's something I can't remember. I only
21 remember that I got from the person in charge in transmission that I
22 should proceed that way. Do you know how it was that Mr. Klein caught
24 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, when that hearing ended, did the reporters
1 A. Yes. And the cameras were switched off. That's what they told
3 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Berghofer, do you remember that on that day -
4 that would have been the 27th of March, 1996 - that you received any news
5 about your family in Croatia?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what news did you receive about your family in Croatia?
8 A. My wife's husband died.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Wife's father died, interpreter's correction.
10 MS. CLANTON: Thank you.
11 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, did you receive that information when you
12 were here in The Hague?
13 A. Yes, right here. I was told by the presiding officers, officer,
14 I'm sorry, you know, apologising for the fact that that's how things were
15 and expressing sympathy.
16 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, this Presiding Judge or officer who expresses
17 sympathy to you, was this when you came back for the closed session
19 A. Yes, I think that's how it happened.
20 Q. And do you remember that the Presiding Judge in that case said to
21 you that because of the terrible circumstances facing your family and
22 this being a very difficult time, that the Tribunal would like to hear
23 immediately from you and that way, without delay, you could get on a
24 plane and return to your family in Croatia?
25 A. If that is correct, when I came back to give that other statement
1 30 minutes later, there wasn't much more that I could say. I was done in
2 a minute or two.
3 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, when you came back for this hearing, this
4 discussion with the Judges and the Prosecutor that took place 30 minutes
5 afterwards, is that when you answered the questions about
6 Slavko Dokmanovic and provided his name to the Chamber?
7 A. Yes. But, Your Honours, at the time, I didn't already know.
8 Actually, I think it was the very moment that I learnt that the person
9 died. So it all happened in the space of one or two minutes.
10 Q. And, Mr. Berghofer, when you came back to the Tribunal in 1998,
11 do you remember being present in the case of Slavko Dokmanovic in
12 February 1998 and giving evidence in that case?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And, at that time, did you answer all of the questions that you
15 were asked accurately and truthfully?
16 A. I did. And I even saw him.
17 Q. You saw him in the courtroom; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Berghofer, I'm going to change subjects. In your
20 cross-examination Defence counsel has asked you about meetings or
21 discussions or sharing of information with the Croatian services,
22 including the Ministry of Defence, and you've been given a chance to see
23 two documents that have your name in them.
24 What I want to ask you is that every time that you've testified
25 before this Tribunal, have you testified based on your memory accurately
1 and truthfully?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Have you ever been asked by the authorities in Croatia, including
4 in the Ministry of Defence, to give them information about what you knew
5 about Ovcara in order that they would have that related to your testimony
6 at The Hague?
7 A. Only in Zagreb, at a court when the gentlemen from Belgrade came
8 and I had to give a statement similar to the one I gave here. Also when
9 I attended individual hearings about certain specific war crimes, which
10 took place in Vukovar, but that didn't have to do with Ovcara.
11 As far as Ovcara is concerned, I know that nobody ever asked me
12 anything about it because they don't know the exact number that was
13 there, in fact.
14 Q. I want to ask you to pause there. These proceedings that you
15 mentioned in Zagreb and Belgrade, these are local proceedings, and in
16 those proceedings you did not interact with anybody from the ICTY, the
17 Prosecutors or the Judges; is that correct?
18 A. That's correct.
19 MS. CLANTON: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Berghofer, this brings your testimony before the Tribunal to
23 an end. You are now released as a witness. We thank you for coming to
24 The Hague to assist the Tribunal, and we wish you a safe journey home.
25 The court usher will escort you out of court. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, if we could have just a moment to
4 switch places, please.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Of course.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon, Madam Witness.
8 Do you understand me in a language -- do you hear me - sorry - in
9 a language you understand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 Could you tell us your first name and name, date of birth, and
13 ethnicity, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Samira Baranjek, 21st of February,
15 1966, in Vukovar, Muslim.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to give the solemn
17 declaration by which witnesses compel themselves to tell the truth. I
18 point out to you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the penalties
19 of perjury should you give untruthful information to the Tribunal.
20 Can I ask you to read now the solemn declaration the usher will
21 give you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: SAMIRA BARANJEK
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Rachel Friedman for
3 the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your witness, Ms. Friedman.
5 Examination by Ms. Friedman:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Baranjek.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Where did you live in November 1991?
9 A. In Vukovar.
10 Q. And were you married at the time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was the name of your husband?
13 A. Ivan Baranjek.
14 Q. Did you and your husband have children?
15 A. Yes, two daughters.
16 Q. And what are their names?
17 A. Tamara and Ivana Fransiska.
18 Q. How old were your daughters in November 1991?
19 A. Tamara was 7; and Ivana Fransiska was six months old.
20 Q. Were you employed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was your husband employed?
23 A. Yes. My husband worked at the city -- Vukovar Hospital.
24 Q. What was his job there?
25 A. Nurse.
1 Q. And other than working as a nurse, how else would your husband
2 spend his time?
3 A. Well, he painted. He was a poet. Also did sculpture. Published
4 two books.
5 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
6 A. Croat. Catholic.
7 Q. Did you or your husband know Goran Hadzic before the war?
8 A. I just knew him by sight, but my husband knew him a bit better.
9 Q. How did your husband meet him?
10 A. Well, he came to the hospital, Hadzic, and my husband worked at
11 the TVC department, and he was asking for help for someone close to him,
12 I don't know who it was, who was a patient at the hospital.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
14 be asked to speak into the microphone? Thank you.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN:
16 Q. Ma'am, did you hear the comment? The interpreters would like you
17 to move a little bit closer to the microphone so that we can hear you
19 A. Mm-hm.
20 Q. And after this first acquaintance between your husband and
21 Goran Hadzic, do you remember, first of all, approximately when that was?
22 A. Could you please repeat that question?
23 Q. Yes. When your husband and Goran Hadzic met at the Vukovar
24 Hospital, do you remember what year that was or approximately what year?
25 A. 1988 or 1989, I'm not sure.
1 Q. And after that first meeting, did they continue to have contact?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you describe what was -- how they interacted.
4 A. Well, my husband read poetry on Radio Vukovar, the then-Radio
5 Vukovar. Mr. Hadzic was also involved in poetry. He actually wrote
6 poetry, and he wanted his poetry to be read as well.
7 Q. And was your husband -- did your husband help him in any way have
8 his poetry read?
9 A. Yes. It went through the director of Radio Vukovar; my husband
10 was on good terms with him. So then some of his poetry was read there as
12 Q. And did you ever have a chance to see Goran Hadzic during this
13 time that he knew your husband?
14 A. Well, I saw him a few times because in the house where we lived,
15 my husband had a studio, and Mr. Hadzic came a few times to his studio
16 and that's where they looked at paintings, read poetry.
17 Q. Can you say -- well, was it a few times that you saw him?
18 A. Yes, three or four times.
19 Q. And did your husband tell you anything about Hadzic, like where
20 he was from or what job he had?
21 A. Yes. He said to me that he worked at some warehouse in Pacetin.
22 Q. Now, did the escalation of the conflict cause you at any point to
23 leave your home?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And when did that happen?
1 A. In October 1991, when Vukovar was bombed.
2 Q. Where did you go?
3 A. Then I went to the Vukovar Hospital, together with my husband and
4 children. Actually, my husband worked at the hospital, and I went to the
5 shelter there.
6 Q. How long were you at the hospital?
7 A. Well, about 15 days. Fifteen days at the shelter in the
9 Q. And where did you go after that?
10 A. Then my husband was in charge of the wounded. They took them to
11 Komerc, Borovo, and then I went there with my children because there was
12 a shelter there as well.
13 Q. And what did you do while you were in the shelter?
14 A. Well, I took care of my children. I visited the wounded and
15 helped as much as I could. My husband did his job.
16 Q. How many people were taking shelter in that location?
17 A. In Borovo Komerc, there were a lot of people. I could not give
18 you the exact number, but there were a lot of them.
19 Q. And other than Borovo Komerc, were there other locations nearby
20 where people were taking shelter?
21 A. Yes, within the factory itself. That's where people also sought
23 MS. FRIEDMAN: I will now ask Mr. Laugel to play a clip from
24 65 ter 4789.2. The time code is 23:18 to 25:55, and it's at tab 4. I
25 will ask Mr. Laugel to begin playing the clip at 25:20 and pause at
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "Overnight, the army had closed off the northern part of Vukovar
4 where the hospital lies. Better delay the evacuation. The Red Cross
5 convoy was turned around, and their delegate didn't like it.
6 "We got used to better collaboration from the JNA before
7 yesterday than I'm getting today.
8 "He found the army commander unsympathetic.
9 "You're not welcome if you don't ... and his soldiers were killed
10 this night also. It's war here.
11 "The war that had destroyed the town had recked the hospital and
12 for today's operation the army was in charge. The major moved out the
13 300 civilians, mostly Croatians, who'd sheltered in the hospital grounds.
14 They were the first to leave. But the main part of the operation was the
15 transfer of 420 hospital patients, most of them stretcher cases, which
16 sheltered in the basement under fire and under siege for two months.
17 Also, ten mothers and their newborn babies born in appalling conditions.
18 The evacuation has hindered by the suspicion not just between Serbs and
19 Croat but between the federal army and the International Red Cross. The
20 Red Cross protested again.
21 "As you may notice, the International Committee of the Red Cross
22 is completely unable to perform the task that was entrusted to it by the
24 "The major rejected the protest out of hand: The Red Cross, he
25 said, was walking around town trying to control the units of the
1 Yugoslav Army.
2 "And there was another setback for the hospital staff, the real
3 heroes and heroines of Vukovar, when their patients had to wait for hours
4 before the destination was known. The main road to Croatia was blocked
5 by heavy fighting. Instead the convoy headed east to a hospital in
6 Serbia, where the wounded will spend the night."
7 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, we -- this is actually the point
8 where I intended to start, but we let it go for that minute and a half or
9 so since it is relevant to the trial and not too long. But I'm just
10 going ask Mr. Laugel to continue playing the clip.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 "And at a factory near Vukovar where the Croats had held out
13 till the last, the army was rounding up a thousand civilians and 500
14 former soldiers. There is a massive and forced migration of people going
16 MS. FRIEDMAN: Okay. And now I'll -- I'll now just ask
17 Mr. Laugel to play a still from what we just saw at 25:20 so that we can
18 have the witness's comment on that. Sorry, 25:36.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "The army was rounding up a thousand civilians and 500 former..."
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: In any event, I apologise for the technical
24 Q. Ms. Baranjek, in the location that we saw in the second part of
25 the clip, did you recognise that location and did you recognise any of
1 the people?
2 MS. FRIEDMAN: And just for the record, that time code 24:25.
3 Q. Sorry, Ms. Baranjek.
4 A. Yes, Mrs. Katica, who was with us at Komerc, and then she went to
5 the Borovo factory.
6 Q. So the location that we saw, the building that we saw, did you
7 recognise that building?
8 A. That's Borovo Naselje, yes.
9 Q. And do you know when it was that the people came out of the
10 shelter as was depicted in the video?
11 A. The 19th of November, 1991. It was during the morning hours, up
12 to midday. From the Borovo factory.
13 Q. And do you know where they were taken from there?
14 A. I don't know about them. I don't know where the buses went. I
15 know from what the lady knew that they went to Velepromet Vukovar, but I
16 didn't see that.
17 Q. Which lady are you referring to?
18 A. Mrs. Katica, the one I mentioned a moment ago, the one wearing a
19 red coat that is here in this footage.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1078. Thank you.
25 MS. FRIEDMAN:
1 Q. And, Ms. Baranjek, did those of you in the Borovo Komerc shelter
2 surrender as well?
3 A. Yes. But we got out of Komerc only later in the afternoon,
4 around 4.30.
5 Q. And what led you to come out of Komerc around 4.30?
6 A. Not 1430.
7 Q. Yes. 4 --
8 A. 1630. Komerc had been bombed. They were throwing tear gas, it
9 was on fire, and we had to go out. Before that, the army was calling out
10 to us to get out. This started from the early morning hours, they were
11 using loud-speakers.
12 Q. And when you went outside, what type of armed forces did you see,
13 if you were able to recognise them?
14 A. Yes. It was the regular army, the JNA, mostly younger soldiers.
15 And behind the Komerc fence further down there were paramilitary forces
16 in civilian clothing, in uniform, camouflage, armed.
17 Q. And what did they do when you came out?
18 A. The army or?
19 Q. Yes, the army.
20 A. Nothing. The army people told us to stand in a column. First,
21 the women and children got out, and after that, they carried out the
22 wounded. So we were all standing in a column.
23 And the JNA didn't do anything bad to us.
24 Q. How long were you standing in that column?
25 A. Well, for an hour and even longer. Until the buses arrived.
1 Q. Were you taken anywhere from there by bus?
2 A. No. From there, we had to go on foot because the paramilitary
3 forces that were there and these armed men in front did not allow the
4 buses to get through, so then we had to walk along the road 3 kilometres,
5 perhaps even more than that, to Trpinska Cesta, in a column.
6 Q. At Trpinska Cesta, did you then board the buses?
7 A. Yes. That's where we boarded the buses.
8 Q. How many buses were there?
9 A. Well, there were quite a few columns of buses and trucks. I
10 boarded the third bus, if you look it from the beginning.
11 Q. Where did that bus take you?
12 A. They drove us along from Trpinska Cesta, through the village of
13 Vere, across fields into Borovo Selo.
14 Q. Were there any other vehicles escorting the buses?
15 A. Yes. At the very head of the column, there was a military
16 vehicle. It was called a Pinzgauer.
17 Q. And where did the buses ultimately arrive?
18 A. They arrived in front of the elementary school in Borovo Selo.
19 Q. Did you observe anything about the area outside and around the
21 A. Yes. Opposite the school, there is a sports ground now -- or,
22 rather, when we arrived there, there was a big bulldozer there. Probably
23 there was something that was being worked on there. I don't know.
24 Q. And did -- were you together with your family on the bus?
25 A. Yes. I, my husband, and the children.
1 Q. Can you describe what happened when you got off the bus.
2 A. Well, when we got off the bus, a policeman from the time met my
3 husband, and he knew him, but he started beating him. And he ordered me
4 to go into the school.
5 Q. Did the man -- sorry.
6 When you arrived in the elementary school, was that then on the
7 evening of November 19th?
8 A. Yes. It was already dark by then.
9 Q. And before we get into the details, can you just tell us when you
10 eventually left the school? How long were you in the school?
11 A. All night. And I left the school only the next evening.
12 Q. When you arrived in the school, was anything taken from you?
13 A. Yes. In front of the school, there were men, women; the local
14 population. They were spitting at us. They were taking away our bags,
15 looking for weapons purportedly. They took off the jewellery that we
16 were wearing. They took it off us. And they took our other valuables.
17 Q. And once you got into the building, were you free to move around?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What type of forces were in the building then? What type of
20 people were controlling what you did?
21 A. Well, there were quite a few local people there who lived in the
22 village, and there were people from elsewhere. People that I didn't
23 know. But they all had some kind of uniforms. Also, there were caps
24 with cockades. Different ones. With weapons ...
25 Q. Did you see Goran Hadzic in the elementary school?
1 A. Yes. He came afterwards, when I was still standing in the
2 hallway waiting to be registered.
3 Q. And where exactly did you observe him? You were in the hallway.
4 Where was he?
5 A. He passed through the hallway and entered the gym of that school.
6 Q. And did you see or hear him do anything in the gym?
7 A. Yes. When he walked in, he had actually walked in with some of
8 his people. He was shouting. He was ordering them to do something. He
9 asked who various people were. He entered the gym. Some people were
10 already introducing themselves. They were basically being interrogated.
11 Q. Did you hear him say anything specific that you can recall?
12 A. Yes. When he entered the gym, he said that everybody would be
13 questioned and whoever is not guilty would be allowed to go home.
14 Q. And did he himself question anybody?
15 A. Well, I don't know whether he was questioning anybody because I
16 didn't hear that, but he was inside and he was looking for some people.
17 He asked, there were two people in white coats, and he said, Is Baranjek
18 there as well?
19 That what is what I did hear. I heard that myself.
20 Q. Did you hear any response to the question whether Baranjek was
22 A. No.
23 Q. And, at this time, did you -- were you able to see or hear where
24 your husband was?
25 A. Yes. I heard that he was in the gym. And I also heard his voice
1 when he was introducing himself, but I couldn't see him, because I was
2 standing on the side.
3 Q. And did you hear Hadzic say anything to the men who had brought
4 you to the school?
5 MR. GOSNELL: Objection. That's a leading question.
6 There's nothing to establish that he said anything.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Friedman.
8 MS. FRIEDMAN: Well, the question is just whether she testified
9 to what he said to the people who were being held in the gym, and I was
10 asking whether he said anything to those who brought them into the gym.
11 MR. GOSNELL: What's been suggested in the question is that
12 Hadzic said anything to this individual. That's suggestive.
13 MS. FRIEDMAN: I could phrase the question as what, if anything.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
15 MS. FRIEDMAN:
16 Q. What, if anything, did Hadzic say to the people that brought you
17 into the school.
18 A. The police - that was then called milicija - that entered the
19 premises, at the point Mr. Hadzic was shouting at them, telling them to
20 go out and not to interfere in his work.
21 Q. Now, did there come a time that you moved somewhere else -- that
22 you were taken somewhere else in the building?
23 A. Yes. A lady came, and since I was standing on the side with my
24 children, she took me to a smaller room where otherwise the janitors had
25 a small room of their own where they'd ring the school bell. There was a
1 table there, two or three chairs, and there were radio transmitters on
2 the school desks in there.
3 Q. And what were -- what happened in that room?
4 A. The lady put down my name, the names of the children, my
5 ethnicity. She wrote down my particulars.
6 Q. And did anybody else come into the room?
7 A. Mr. Hadzic came into the room later. He entered briskly
8 arrogantly. He asked me, Where is your husband? He took the radio
9 transmitter, the radio set - what's it called? - to talk.
10 Q. And did he talk into the radio set?
11 A. Yes, he was shouting, laughing. He was shouting euphorically,
12 "Belgrade, Mladjo, send reservists over. Vukovar has fallen. I can head
13 for Osijek tomorrow."
14 MS. FRIEDMAN: I will now ask Mr. Laugel to play a video-clip, 65
15 ter 4896.1. The time code for this clip is 23:29 to 24:03 and it's at
16 tab 13. And I will ask to ask to play from the beginning and then to
17 pause for a moment at time code 23:37.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, this isn't an objection. There was a name
19 mentioned, I believe, by the witness, is not reflected in the transcript.
20 It pertains to the alleged conversation or speaking into the radio
22 MS. FRIEDMAN: Thank you.
23 Q. So before we play the clip, Ms. Baranjek, did you hear when
24 Mr. Hadzic was speaking into the radio, you mentioned a particular person
25 that he was speaking to. Can you repeat that name, please.
1 A. Mladjo.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It happened four days ago when we
5 were liberating Borovo Selo [as interpreted], my units."
6 MS. FRIEDMAN:
7 Q. Ms. Baranjek, do you recognise the person that's seen in the
9 A. It's Arkan.
10 Q. He mentioned the location Borovo Naselje. Where is that
12 A. I don't know. I don't know. The building can be seen a bit.
13 There is a residential building in the background, but where exactly it
14 is, I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, he says he's speaking about liberating
16 Borovo Naselje, and I just wanted to know whether any of the buildings
17 that you've mentioned today are located in the vicinity of
18 Borovo Naselje?
19 A. Yes, it's Borovo Naselje. The column that was in front of the
20 factory, all of that is Borovo Naselje.
21 Q. And can we now play the rest of the clip, please.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Is it a serious wound?
24 "No, it's a light wound, and I returned to the front line
25 immediately, so I have not been absent from the front line at all.
1 "There is a hole in the gun as well.
2 "Yes, this is a hole. This is how it was, there is a hole. This
3 is a small-calibre sniper. It's over and forgotten now.
4 "What next?
5 "Well, we go on. We go to Osijek, Osijek."
6 MS. FRIEDMAN: And Your Honours, we tender this 65 ter 4896.1.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1079. Thank you.
9 MS. FRIEDMAN:
10 Q. Ms. Baranjek, returning now to Hadzic's presence in the room with
11 the radio communication, was there anything else that you he heard him
12 say while he was there?
13 A. Yes. He asked the lady who was writing my particulars down, who
14 was registering me, how many doctors were there in the school.
15 Q. And did she respond to him?
16 A. Yes. She said that there was Dr. Remedi and Dr. Matic-Kutuzovic
17 who needed transportation for Novi Sad.
18 Q. And was there any other conversation between them?
19 A. No. Again, he called on the radio set and said, "Braco, send
20 cars over. There are no cars in the village."
21 Q. And what happened after that? Did you remain in this room?
22 A. No. The lady took me out, together with the children. We passed
23 a corridor and stepped into a classroom where there were already women
24 and children. There were about 20 of us.
25 Q. Was anybody guarding the room?
1 A. Yes. There was a guard in front of the classroom. We were in
2 the classroom, and he would lock the door.
3 Q. And did anybody go in and out of the room during the night?
4 A. Can you repeat your question?
5 Q. Did anybody go in and out of the room during the night.
6 A. Yes. This same lady came into the room and brought some milk for
7 the children. Mr. Hadzic also entered the room.
8 Q. Can you describe what he did or said while he was in the room.
9 A. He asked who -- is Baranjek's wife here. I responded. He looked
10 at me and went out. Actually, before that, he asked me, "Where is your
11 husband?" And I replied, "You saw him in the gym."
12 Q. And were any women taken out of the gym -- sorry, of the
14 A. Yes. Quite a few women were taken out for questioning in another
16 Q. When they returned, how did they look when they returned?
17 A. Beaten up.
18 Q. And did they call the women out by pointing at them, or did they
19 call them out by name?
20 A. They called them out by name because they had a list.
21 Q. Were you able to see the list?
22 A. Yes. I saw the list when I was standing by the door and talking
23 to the guard. My first and last name were crossed out with a red marker.
24 I wasn't taken out for questioning at all.
25 Q. Now, did you see Hadzic at any other point during your time in
1 the elementary school?
2 A. Yes, I saw him two or three more times when he was passing
3 through the corridor and entering the classroom where the questioning was
4 taking place. I was asking to be let out, and the guard who was guarding
5 our classroom let me and another woman out to have a cigarette in front
6 of the door there, and that was when I saw Hadzic pass by. I heard him
7 yell at his people, telling them to do their job, and I don't know what
8 else he was shouting about.
9 At any rate, he was shouting at them, at his own people.
10 Q. What led you to conclude that they were his own people?
11 A. Because everybody was obeying him.
12 Q. And other than what you saw, is there anything else that you
13 heard from the women with you about Hadzic's actions or what he said that
15 A. Yes. There was a grandmother, an elderly woman who was sitting
16 in the corridor. She said that -- in fact, all of us heard moans coming
17 from that room. But the grandma there was an eye-witness to all that
18 happened out there. We didn't spend that much time in the corridor.
19 Q. What did she tell you?
20 A. She told me about my husband. When he was being questioned in
21 that room.
22 I saw him pass by because I was still in the corridor at the
23 time. He got into that classroom. Afterwards, the grandma said he was
24 carried out of that room in a bloody blanket.
25 Q. You said that you left the school the day after you arrived, on
1 November 20th. Where did you go?
2 A. They asked us if anybody had anyone in Serbia, in Vojvodina. I
3 said that I had my mother's family there in Vojvodina, in Odzaci.
4 Several among the women there, including myself, said that they would be
5 going there. They told us to wait. It was the young man who was
6 guarding us in that room who told us that.
7 Q. And did you -- when you left the school, did you -- were you
8 indeed taken to Odzaci in Vojvodina?
9 A. Yes. We were taken there. I got off the bus, but I didn't go
10 where we were supposed to be going. It was some sort of the collection
11 centre. Together with my children and a friend, a girlfriend of mine, we
12 went further down that road, went to a pastry shop, sat there for a
13 while, and then continued the journey on our own.
14 Q. Who was in charge of the buses that brought you there?
15 A. A man in a camouflage uniform took us out of the school. He
16 escorted us to the bus. He told the driver -- in fact, they had stuck a
17 paper, a Red Cross paper, onto the bus. He was armed. I don't know him.
18 He got on the bus with us and journeyed with us.
19 Q. Were there other -- other than this guard, were there men on the
21 A. Can you repeat your question? I didn't understand.
22 Q. You travelled on the bus with some of the other women in the
23 classroom. And were there also any men on the bus?
24 A. No. There was just the driver and the armed man wearing a
25 camouflage uniform.
1 Q. And you said earlier after you got off the bus you continued the
2 journey on your own. Where did you ultimately end up?
3 A. It was dark. My girlfriends and I got out of the bus together
4 with the children. We headed down the road, came across a pastry shop,
5 and stepped in. The man asked us where we were coming from. We told
6 him. He gave us a cup of coffee. He gave milk to the children. We were
7 waiting for a bus. But it was late. There was no bus coming. So,
8 ultimately, a man took us there. I was going to --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the name of the
11 MS. FRIEDMAN:
12 Q. Ma'am, where was the place you were going to?
13 A. Odzak in Vojvodina.
14 Q. Did there come a time that you returned to Vukovar?
15 A. No. Only after the war.
16 Q. Do you remember what year it was?
17 A. 1998.
18 Q. Did you ever see your husband again after leaving the school in
19 Borovo Selo?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And did you fill out a missing person form with the ICRC in
22 relation to your husband?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Would you like to pause for a few moments, ma'am?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay.
2 I would ask that the Court Officer to please display 65 ter 3390,
3 which is tab 2.
4 And, Ms. Baranjek, I direct your attention to the monitor. And
5 if you do want to take a break at any point, just let us know. But we
6 are almost finished my questions.
7 So is this -- do you recognise this to be the questionnaire that
8 you filled out?
9 A. Yes. I apologise, I don't see too well now because I left my
10 glasses in the other room, but that's the form.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MS. FRIEDMAN: And can we now have page 3. And if we can just
13 zoom in, then, on the bottom of the page.
14 Q. It says on the bottom that the last information is that your
15 husband was killed by a man who is named here as Braca Zivanovic. And I
16 wanted to ask whether that is correct information as far as what you know
18 A. No. That was the statement I gave after I'd just arrived in
19 Zagreb. But that was not the man.
20 Q. How did you -- what made you write this man down at that time?
21 A. He resembled the policeman who was beating him. And my
22 girlfriend then told me that that was his name. However, later on, I
23 found out that it was not the same person.
24 Q. Do you know the name of the person who was beating him?
25 A. No. I don't know it today.
1 MS. FRIEDMAN: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 3390
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1080. Thank you.
5 MS. FRIEDMAN:
6 Q. Did you subsequently hear anything else? Do you have any other
7 information about what happened to your husband?
8 A. I don't have any information. There were many stories rumoured,
9 many things happened, but I haven't heard anything, haven't found out
10 anything to this day, and not a single bone has been found.
11 Q. And what has -- can you describe the impact that his
12 disappearance has had on you and your daughters.
13 A. It is very hard. Ivana Fransiska was very young. She doesn't
14 remember anything. Tamara remembers some details like seeing dead bodies
15 along the way as we were passing by, how her father was being beaten, and
16 some other details.
17 I, of course, remember a bit more than that.
18 Q. Thank you for providing your testimony.
19 MS. FRIEDMAN: I have no further questions at this time,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Baranjek, I would like to ask you one
22 follow-up question.
23 You told us that Mr. Hadzic, I think, at three different
24 moments - in the gym, in the classroom, in the room where the radio
25 transmitters were - asked for your husband, where he was.
1 Do you know why he was particularly looking for your husband?
2 Did he ever say something to that effect?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know why he was
4 looking for him.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 Mr. Gosnell.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
8 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent
9 Mr. Hadzic here in these proceedings. I'm going to have a few questions
10 for you today and probably tomorrow morning as well. If anything I ask
11 you is not clear, you don't understand, please free to ask me for
12 clarification. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Am I right in understanding, ma'am, that you have given two
15 different statements regarding the events that you've described here
16 today. One statement, as I understand it, you gave in May of 2000 to
17 some Croatian police investigators; and then, again, in 2012, on the 26th
18 and 27th of July, you then gave a follow-up statement to an investigator
19 of the Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. GOSNELL: And could we have, please, 65 ter 03389 on the
23 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise that this is the statement that you gave
24 to the Croatian police?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 MR. GOSNELL: And if we could go down to the last page, the end
2 of the document, please.
3 Am I correct, ma'am, that that is your signature there above
4 where it says "report submitted by," and then it says your name?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And before you did sign it, did you have an opportunity to read
7 it in full?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Can you explain how that worked, that you signed it but you
10 didn't have a chance to review it?
11 A. Because there were more of us giving statements. The police was
12 there with us. Mistakes happened. A record is -- was made of something
13 that didn't happen to me. It was something that I had heard.
14 Q. Well, I -- I -- I'm not sure I understand. Things you heard but,
15 nevertheless, you reported accurately to the police what you had heard
16 during your interview with the police; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. It was written in such a way as -- that it appeared that
18 those were my words explaining what had happened to me; whereas, it was
19 something that I had heard happened to others, and, as such, it wasn't
20 valid before a court.
21 Q. Well, perhaps we can -- to cut this matter short or to get beyond
22 this, we could have a look at 05961; 65 ter 05961.
23 And this, ma'am, coming up on the screen in front of you is your
24 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in July 2012.
25 Now, during that discussion with the investigator of the Office
1 of the Prosecutor, did you then have the opportunity to go through your
2 police statement from the year 2000?
3 A. Yes. And those things were mentioned. I mean, actually, the
4 translation wasn't good either.
5 Q. What do you mean, "the translation wasn't good either"?
6 A. Well, when they read it out to me, it wasn't good. Because
7 sports hall and gym is not one and the same thing, "sportska dvorana" and
8 "teretana," and that's what was written in the statement, and then I said
9 so, and then that had to be corrected. And then it also had to be
10 corrected, I mean, the thing about the policeman or the member of the
11 milicija, whatever, his name, I mentioned that too.
12 MR. GOSNELL: Well, could we have page 5, please, of this in the
13 English, and ...
14 Could be page 5, could be the last page -- should be the
15 second-last page in the Croatian version.
16 Q. Now, ma'am, you say here you signed the document. That is your
17 signature, is it not?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And you say:
20 "This statement has been read over to me in the Croatian language
21 and it is true to the best of my knowledge and recollection."
22 Is that right?
23 A. Yes, yes, yes. Once the things that were not written down
24 properly were corrected.
25 Q. So you had a full opportunity to review your statement from 2000
1 and the corrections that you wished to make in July 2012, you made in
2 this statement, in 2012; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please go back now to 03389.
5 Q. Now, ma'am, what I'd like to do with you is just walk through the
6 sequence of events and touch on a few details that the Prosecution did
7 not touch upon. And if we go over to paragraph 5 of this statement which
8 is from 2000. As I understand the sequence of events that you describe
9 here, you say that on the 19th of November, at around 1630 hours, as
10 you've said here today, you left the Borovo komerc building, and then it
11 was at about 1930 hours that you set off on foot towards what's called
12 Mali Raj; is that correct?
13 A. I don't know what time it was. It was already dark, but I
14 thought approximately that it was about two hours that we walked.
15 Q. And then you arrive there at this place called Mali Raj, and
16 there's an important sentence here. It says:
17 "On this occasion" --
18 Let me go back two sentences. You have a sentence that says:
19 "I stood by the third bus," and, ma'am, you've described today
20 that indeed you did get on the third bus, "and at that moment my husband
21 Ivan came up. The investigator who had searched Ivan's house in --"
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "-- in 1971 was hitting the side of the bus with his truncheon,
25 Let me just stop there. That's correct, is it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you say:
3 "On this occasion, that is on 19 November, 1991, the same man was
4 about 40 to 55 -- 45 to 50 years old wearing a military police uniform,
5 olive-drab in colour, with a white belt and shoulder strap and a grey
6 police cap with a star."
7 Is that all correct?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And this individual whom you describe here, when you say the same
10 man, is it correct that this man had come and harassed your husband some
11 20 years earlier?
12 A. Yes. He was an investigator at the then-milicija.
13 Q. And just to jump ahead out of the sequence of events, you
14 remember that you then go to the Borovo Selo elementary school. You got
15 off the buses, and you described seeing a policeman there. Is it correct
16 that that policeman is the same man whom you describe here as wearing the
17 white belt?
18 A. Yes. He was at the head of the column in that Pinzgauer and he
19 met us at the bus door, and he started beating my husband straight away.
20 And my husband was holding a six-month-old child at the time.
21 Q. If we can turn the page in the English, please. Down towards the
22 end of paragraph 5. You say here that:
23 "At 2030 hours, our bus stopped outside the elementary school, so
24 that the entrance was on our right."
25 And then down at paragraph 6 you say:
1 "After I had taken the child, the investigator began hitting Ivan
2 on the kidneys with his truncheon and shouting, 'Fucking bastard. I have
3 been waiting since 1971 to do this.'"
4 Is that the event that you were describing, where the
5 investigator beats your husband?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then after this event, if we go down to paragraph 7 - and I'm
8 terribly sorry, madam, to have to go through this sequence of events with
9 you, it says that you entered the -- the school foyer, and today you have
10 used the word "hallway," I think. Are the hallway and the foyer one and
11 the same place?
12 A. The hallway, the entrance into a school, whatever you call it. I
13 don't know. It's a biggish area. It's in a school.
14 Q. And what you say here in this statement is that there were tables
15 set up and they told you that they were looking for weapons. Let's just
16 stop there.
17 Do you remember that that's what happened when you went into the
18 hallway, that they told you that they were looking for weapons?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But instead of taking weapons, they -- they took your jewellery.
21 A. Yes. Everything that was valuable.
22 Q. And then you say here in paragraph 7 of your statement at about
23 2100 to 2115 hours, you were taken down from the foyer by a woman with
24 reddish curly hair to the cellar. Do you remember that detail that you
25 were taken from the hallway down to the cellar?
1 A. Yes. Just that woman. Her name is Senija.
2 Q. And earlier today when you were describing a room where there
3 were radio sets, is it correct that ...
4 I'm sorry, could you repeat the name that you just mentioned.
5 Senija, Senija. Her husband's name is Braco and they had a restaurant
6 called Carda. They knew my mother, both she and her husband, and I
7 recognised her when I came to the village, but she did not recognise me
8 because I was very little when she came to my mother's.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Could we turn the page, please, of the English.
10 Q. Now, can I ask you, first of all, did you consider it curious
11 that radio sets had been set up underground presumably where they might
12 not receive the best might -- they might not have the best transmission
13 or reception?
14 A. It is not underground. It is just three or four steps from the
15 hallway. It's not a cellar.
16 Q. Well, this may be one of those translation issues. The statement
17 from the year 2000 says that it was a cellar. But you're saying it
18 wasn't a cellar?
19 A. Yes. It was not a cellar. Because this room is just three or
20 four steps lower than the hallway, whatever you call it.
21 Q. Can I ask you, when you gave your statement in the year 2000 to
22 the Croatian police, was there anyone in particular that they were
23 interested in? Was there any person who they had in mind as a suspect?
24 A. Yes. They were showing me people's photographs, photographs of
25 persons that I saw at the school in Borovo Selo, but actually I didn't
1 know them personally. But it was there that I heard their names.
2 Q. Was Goran Hadzic one of the individuals in whom they were
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did they mention his name first during your interview with
6 them, or did you mention his naming first?
7 A. No. After my statement, they showed the photographs. They
8 weren't looking for him first. After they took my statement, then they
9 showed us pictures, asking who knew who. Who was at the school.
10 Q. And did -- did they show you a picture and say, That's
11 Goran Hadzic. Do you recognise him? Is that how it went?
12 A. No. No, they showed us photographs, and they asked, "Who is this
13 man?," "Who is that man?," "Who is this man?," and then I said who it was
14 that I recognised. I'd say the name and surname. And if I did not know
15 a person, then I'd say that is such and such a person, but I heard at the
16 school that this was his name.
17 Q. And if you had something to say about any of these suspects,
18 including Goran Hadzic, this was information that they were very
19 interested in; correct?
20 A. Could you please repeat that? I did not quite understand.
21 Q. They were very interested in any information you might have had
22 about Mr. Hadzic; correct?
23 A. Yes, they were interested in everything.
24 Q. And once you gave an indication that you had information about a
25 particular person, including Mr. Hadzic, they would press you for all the
1 information that you knew about that person; is that right?
2 A. I would like to note that before I looked at the photographs and
3 before they asked me about anybody, I gave a statement as to what it was
4 that happened to me at the school.
5 Q. Well, all I'm asking is, once you did mention Mr. Hadzic and his
6 activities, if they were confused, if they weren't clear, did they seek
7 further clarification from you about what you knew about Mr. Hadzic's
9 A. Again, I'm telling you, no one asked me about any details. First
10 they took my statement on what had happened to me at the school. Then
11 they showed me pictures of persons. And then we were supposed to say
12 what their names were.
13 Q. What you say here in this statement from 2000 to the police is,
14 and I quote in paragraph 7:
15 "At the time we were being registered, Goran Hadzic strutted into
16 the room wearing camouflage uniform with an unbuttoned shirt with no rank
17 or cap and approached a radio set and contacted Novi Sad, as far as I
18 could hear, but the only thing I heard clearly was his words: 'We'll
19 speak later. It's all right.'"
20 A. Yes, that was at the very beginning when he came in. Then he
21 called again and then he was laughing and saying, "Belgrade, Belgrade,
22 Mladjo, send reservist. Vukovar has fallen. I can go on to Osijek
23 tomorrow." Those are his words that I heard because this is a small
25 Q. And you would have heard those words clearly because he was
1 shouting, correct?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And yet you say here in your 2000 statement that the only thing I
4 heard clearly was his words, "We'll speak later. It's all right." Why
5 didn't you include the other words that you say now that you heard
7 A. I don't know. I don't know why it wasn't written down then. I
8 don't know. Because I spent half an hour in that room, and he was in
9 that room for about ten minutes.
10 Q. He was this in that room for ten minutes. You heard him --
11 apparently now you say he had two conversations, one with Belgrade, one
12 with Novi Sad. You say now that he said the forces should push towards
13 Osijek. And this was all in the context of an investigation by Croatian
14 police into Goran Hadzic, and you're saying that they simply omitted
15 these details from your statement in 2000?
16 A. I don't know against whom an investigation was being carried out,
17 and I wasn't interested in that at all. I went to the Red Cross to look
18 for my husband, and I wasn't looking at who had been convicted and who
19 they were looking for and ...
20 MR. GOSNELL: I see the time, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
22 Madam Witness, we finish at 2.00 for the day. Your testimony is
23 it not ended yet. You will come back tomorrow at 9.00. You're still
24 under oath, which means that you cannot discuss your testimony with
25 anybody, and you cannot talk at all with any of the parties.
1 Do you understand?
2 Thank you. The court usher will escort you out the court now.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of
8 February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.