1 Tuesday, 9 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
14 the Prosecution Douglas Stringer, Alex Demirdjian, Thomas Laugel,
15 Marija Bukovac.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, very briefly. At the end of the
23 day yesterday when you asked us to clarify the witness's answer as to
24 whether she said no, I was told after court she may have said something
25 else. Would it be possible to ask the Registry to provide the parties
1 with the audio- or video-clip at the break so we review that part of her
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Registrar?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I will have to inform the parties
5 during the course of the hearing. Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 WITNESS: VESNA BOSANAC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Dr. Bosanac. May I remind you that
12 you are still under oath.
13 Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Dr. Bosanac.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I hope you had time to rest last night despite the work we gave
19 you. Did you manage to review the binder we had prepared, including the
20 19 faxes and documents which were part of your book?
21 A. Yes, I reviewed it all.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I realise that the Defence didn't get to look at
23 the binder. Would they like to look at it just to ensure that it is
24 accurately reflecting the list of documents we wish to tender?
25 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, please.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
2 Q. And, Doctor, while the Defence is looking through the binder,
3 could you tell us whether you recognise these letters and faxes and
5 A. Yes, I reviewed it all.
6 Q. Okay. And are these documents which either were sent by you --
7 or first of all, could you tell us what was in that binder for the
8 Trial Chamber?
9 A. That binder contains copies of faxes that I wrote and sent out
10 from Vukovar, and there are notes on my telephone calls and appeals that
11 I communicated by telephone.
12 Q. And these are similar to those that we have seen in the court
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At this stage if there is no objection, I would
17 like to read on the record the 65 ter numbers of these faxes and notes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: No objection, Mr. Gosnell?
19 MR. GOSNELL: None, Mr. President. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 So the first one at tab 7 is 65 ter 467.13. The second one at
23 tab 8 is 467.14. The next one at tab 9 is 467.16. At tab 10, 467.17.
24 We then have at tab 11, 467.19. At tab 14 we find 467.3. At tab 15 we
25 find 467.5. Tab 10 [sic] we have 65 ter number 482. At tab 24 we have
1 65 ter 501. At tab 27 we have 65 ter 516. At tab 28 we have 65 ter 518.
2 At tab 30 we have 65 ter 562. At tab 32 we have 65 ter 580. At tab 36
3 we have 65 ter 602. Then at tab 21 we have 65 ter 486. At tab 25,
4 65 ter 502. At tab 22 we have 65 ter 490. At tab 17 we have 65 ter
5 467.7. And at tab 6 we have 65 ter 467.12.
6 Your Honours, our application is to tender all these exhibits.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, at line 19 --
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- you said tab 10, 65 ter 482. Either the 65
10 ter number is wrong or the tab number should be 20.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is 20, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, okay.
13 So these documents are admitted and marked. Do we get the
14 exhibits numbers now or later, Madam Registrar?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the documents will be Exhibit P1442
16 up to and including P1450. I will communicate to the parties the
17 individual exhibit numbers.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
19 Please continue, Mr. Demirdjian.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Q. Doctor, yesterday you mentioned that you were not the only one
22 sending faxes, and you mentioned particularly that the police station was
23 sending faxes along its line; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would like to show you one or two of these faxes.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We would like to display now 65 ter 87.1,
2 please. And in the English version it would be at page 32, and in the
3 B/C/S it's page 20. Yes.
4 Q. Doctor, you should be able to see a fax dated the 6th of October,
5 1991. Do you see that in front of you?
6 A. I see it.
7 Q. And this seems to be sent from the police station in Vukovar to
8 the police station in Cakovec. Could you just briefly tell us where is
10 A. Cakovec is a town located in north-west Croatia, and from the
11 Cakovec police station during the aggression on Vukovar, police officers
12 from Cakovec and Varazdin and some other town were deployed in Vukovar.
13 So I suppose this fax was sent to Cakovec for that purpose, to keep them
14 informed on the circumstances under which the policemen from Cakovec were
16 Q. Thank you for that. Now, on this page, towards the bottom in
17 both the B/C/S and the English version there is a reference to the
18 Eltz castle. Can you tell the Court what exactly is the Eltz castle?
19 A. The castle of Eltz Counts is in the centre of Vukovar on the
20 right bank of the Danube, and inside it - before the war and nowadays -
21 is located the museum the town of Vukovar.
22 Q. Now, was there anything in particular in the area of the Eltz
23 castle during the conflict at least at that time, in October 1991?
24 A. During the war, in the basement of that Eltz castle the art was
25 placed, taken from the upper floors to the basement, and the archive of
1 the museum was also placed in the basement of that castle.
2 Q. And are you aware of what purpose was the Eltz castle used for
3 during the months of October and November 1991?
4 A. I was never there in that period, so I don't have exact
5 information of the purpose for which that basement was used.
6 Q. Very well. Now, in the immediate vicinity of the Eltz castle
7 were there any buildings of particular significance?
8 A. Opposite the castle, below the road, there was a basement; and on
9 the other side of the road in that basement, wine cellars were located
10 from before the Second World War. It was a very solid basement where
11 many civilians found shelter during the aggression on Vukovar and the
12 shelling attacks.
13 I was there looking for places where we could make a safe shelter
14 to house the wounded for whom we had no more room in the hospital. That
15 basement was safe and sturdy, but it had neither electricity nor water so
16 that we, the hospital staff, abandoned the idea of using it as a shelter.
17 However, it was used by many civilians from the surrounding buildings and
18 houses who were looking for a safe place. For the a while the Croatian
19 Radio Vukovar operated from that basement.
20 In the immediate vicinity of that basement there was an atomic
21 shelter where the Defence commander had his headquarters. At the
22 beginning it was Mile Dedakovic, and later it was Branko Borkovic.
23 Q. Now, in relation to this shelter you were mentioning, during the
24 conflict how safe was it in that shelter?
25 A. It was rather safe, especially below the road. It was a very
1 good roof. However, the entrance into the basement was often targeted by
2 shelling, and I remember very well on the 15th just before the fall of
3 Vukovar one shell hit the entranceway, killing nine people including one
4 nurse who worked in our physical therapy department, Mrs. Aleksandar, her
5 husband who worked in the post office, their 3-year-old child. Emil
6 walked to the hospital and died there.
7 Q. And in terms of the nine people killed on that occasion, can you
8 tell the Court what was their status, as to whether they were civilians
9 or members of the defenders?
10 A. They were all civilians, but I remember I read something about
11 that incident in a magazine published by the Yugoslav Army that the
12 captain, I think Radic, got a commendation because he managed to hit the
13 entrance into an Ustasha shelter with an artillery shell, and it was
14 actually describing the event, that event in which civilians were killed.
15 I read that piece just after I arrived at the prison in Mitrovica.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go to the next page both in the
18 English and the B/C/S, please.
19 Q. Doctor, here we see that a number of people are listed who sought
20 assistance at the medical centre in Vukovar. Could you tell us how this
21 list was compiled?
22 A. That list, as I said before -- a police clerk Branko Lukenda was
23 in charge of making a list of the wounded every day, and Tomislav
24 Hegedus, the policeman, was making lists of the dead; and they would send
25 out those reports on a daily basis to their superiors, to the competent
1 institutions in the police force.
2 Q. And do you recognise the name at the bottom? I believe it says
3 Chief Zvonimir Rados. I believe in English it's on the third page.
4 A. He was a policeman in that police administration in Vukovar in
5 charge of sending that information to other stations.
6 Q. Very well. Now, in this bundle there's another fax that I'd like
7 to show you which is on page 1 both in English and in B/C/S. Yes. This
8 time you should be able to see a fax from the 21st of October, 1991. And
9 it appears at this time the police station has sent this fax to the
10 Ministry of Interior in Zagreb. Looking at this list, Dr. Bosanac, it
11 appears again that there is a report about the number of people brought
12 to the hospital. Is this similar to the one we saw just a minute ago?
13 A. Yes. I recognise the names of those wounded JNA soldiers,
14 Pavle Teofanovic and Sasa Jovic, and you can see this list also comes
15 from the police, sent to the MUP in Zagreb.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we scroll to the bottom of the page in the
17 B/C/S version, please, and could we go to the next page in the English
18 version. Yes.
19 Q. This one, too, is signed by the same person, Zvonimir Rados; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes, as far as I can see.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I would ask that this bundle of
23 faxes which is 65 ter 87.1 be admitted. There's 23 pages in B/C/S. All
24 of them are similar in content. You see a list of names of persons who
25 sought assistance at the medical centre, and it is signed by the chief of
1 the police station, and they are dispatched to other police authorities.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: So this is a bundle of faxes. How many exactly?
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: There are 23 pages, Your Honours. I believe
4 it's one page per fax in the B/C/S version.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: And it's under one 65 ter number?
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Under one 65 ter. The originals -- the original
7 65 ter, 87, has 123 pages. We've made a selection of only 23 pages just
8 for purposes of showing -- or illustrating the point, and these are,
9 yeah, individual pages and under one bundle, as they are all similar in
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: But even isn't that a little bit odd to tender
12 that as one document?
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we could -- we could split them;
14 that is not a problem. I just thought because they're of similar nature,
15 it's the same topic pretty much. It's --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
17 MR. GOSNELL: If I could briefly state the Defence's position in
18 respect of the bundle. One thing is the list of injured which is
19 provided by individuals related to the MUP who are monitoring what is
20 going on at the hospital, and another thing that's included in this
21 bundle is an extensive description of military activities. I don't
22 believe this witness knows anything about that, can't vouch for it, can't
23 enhance its reliability. Those portions I don't think should be
24 admitted, that's for sure. So I'm not quite sure how the Defence
25 proposes -- or the Prosecution proposes to deal with it. If they want to
1 admit just the two faxes that they've shown to the witness, there would
2 be no objection to that; but as for the remainder, we would object.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Might I make a proposal then, that we put it on
4 the record now, that the purpose for tendering these exhibits is to
5 strictly show that through the police station faxes were sent recording
6 the patients who sought assistance at the medical centre and strictly for
7 that purpose. And, Your Honours, we can perhaps before the second break
8 split those individual faxes into sub-numbers if that could satisfy.
9 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: These documents will be admitted for the purpose
11 you indicated, Mr. Demirdjian, after you split them. I think that would
12 be preferable.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We'll do that. Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Excuse me, Mr. President, just to be clear. Are
16 we -- do I understand that what has been provisionally admitted are just
17 the two faxes that have been shown to the witness?
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, the entire bundle.
19 MR. GOSNELL: The entire bundle.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: But only for the purpose indicated by
21 Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Doctor, I would like to move to the end of the -- well, to the
1 fall of Vukovar basically. Could you tell us when you learned about the
2 end of the battle, if I can put it that way.
3 A. I spoke every day to the minister of health, and I was aware that
4 in Zagreb, in a hotel, negotiations were going on about the evacuation of
5 the hospital and the evacuation of civilians from Vukovar. Apart from
6 that, I was present at the police, at the defence headquarters, wherefrom
7 I sent faxes and appeals. So I was aware that very soon there would be
8 an evacuation of all of Vukovar and the defence would fall. I did not
9 know exactly when that would happen. All I knew was that the plan was to
10 begin evacuating the hospital on the 18th of November.
11 Q. And around this time were you aware of what the Croatian
12 defenders were doing?
13 A. I don't know exactly what you mean.
14 Q. Let me be more clear. You said that you learned about it
15 through -- through the fact that there were negotiations in Zagreb and
16 that there would be an evacuation of the civilian population. Let me put
17 it this way: Did you go to the police station or the defence
18 headquarters around the 17th or the 18th of November?
19 A. Yes, I did go on the 17th November to the defence headquarters,
20 and there I found Marin Vidic, the police chief. They were talking to
21 individual commanders at various defence points. They were discussing
23 Q. I apologise. The record reflects here that you said "I found
24 Marin Vidic, the police chief." I believe you wanted to enumerate two
25 separate people; is that right?
1 A. No. The police chief, who was Stipo Bole, and Marin Vidic;
2 that's what I said.
3 Q. And the record shows his last name as "Bole"; is that correct?
4 A. P, P-o-l-e. Stipo Pole was the police chief.
5 Q. Now, around this time you told us - you saw earlier yesterday a
6 fax of the 15th of November - that the civilian population started coming
7 to the Vukovar Hospital. What happened on the 17th and 18th of November
8 in relation to the civilian population?
9 A. People from the surrounding buildings and houses came to the
10 hospital. I tried to explain to them that there is no room in the
11 hospital, there's no possibility to accommodate them, they should wait to
12 be evacuated in their own homes. But people were afraid because the
13 shooting was still going on, and everybody kept coming to the hospital.
14 We had no food, no water. All we could offer was tea and toast to the
15 children. And we were very busy preparing the wounded for evacuation,
16 preparing the documentation, preparing immobilisation for purposes of
17 transport, putting plaster casts on limbs. We were expecting the
18 International Commission of the Red Cross and European Monitors to come
19 in the morning of the 18th to begin the evacuation.
20 Q. Now, you just told us you were expecting the International
21 Commission of the Red Cross and the European Mission to come to the
22 hospital on the morning of the 18th. What led you to believe that this
23 was to be the case?
24 A. I spoke overnight with Professor Hebrang by phone, and he said in
25 the morning on Monday at 8.00 there would be two ICRC teams coming to the
1 Vukovar Hospital.
2 Q. Now, the evacuation itself didn't take place on the 18th; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, who, if anyone, did you speak to on the 18th once you found
6 out the evacuation was not taking place on that day?
7 A. Again I called Minister Hebrang, and I got him on the line. He
8 told me that the ICRC had sent a message that they were indeed in Vukovar
9 and would be at the hospital but that their -- they were currently busy
10 with evacuating civilians in the southern part of town. I again called
11 the European Commission at the I Hotel, and I got some European observers
12 around 9.00 on the line who said that they were in Negoslavci village and
13 that they were unable to arrive as the Yugoslav Army could not guarantee
14 protection and safety, but that they would be arriving as soon as they
16 Q. Now, on that day, on the 18th of November, was there any
17 agreement between the parties in relation to the evacuation?
18 A. That night between the 17th and the 18th, the agreement was
19 signed in the I Hotel in Zagreb. It was signed by Georges-Marie Chenu,
20 as the representative of the European Mission; then
21 Professor Andrija Hebrang, as the minister on behalf of the Croatian
22 government; and General Andrija Raseta, on behalf of the JNA.
23 Q. Very well. If you can give me a moment, please.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we have -- could we have 65 ter 601 at
25 tab 35, please. Thank you.
1 Q. Doctor, we have a document in front of us. Do you recognise what
2 this is?
3 A. Yes. That is the agreement, one of the drafts. I saw one which
4 its heading had a logo of the ICRC. That was a copy of the agreement
5 which I only saw after I was released from prison. I didn't see it
6 before that.
7 Q. Now, on this document at item number 1 we see that the parties
8 involved here are the representatives of the Republic of Croatia, the
9 JNA, the ICRC, Medecins sans Frontieres, Maltese Cross. Does that
10 actually reflect your -- the information you had at the time?
11 A. Yes, that was the information I had, which was that evacuation
12 would begin on the 18th of November organised by the ICRC,
13 European observers, the MSF, and the Maltese Order. The idea was that
14 the Maltese Order -- a convoy be organised with their assistance on the
15 Danube in order to evacuate the wounded and civilians. That was the
16 information I had, although I did not believe they would be able to reach
17 Vukovar by the Danube and on a boat, because there was firing nonstop
18 across the Danube from tanks and cannons.
19 Q. Now, at item number 4 in the second part of that paragraph, there
20 is a mention here that both parties will provide suitably equipped and
21 manned ambulances, and we see here numbers of seriously ill and wounded
22 patients. We see the number of 40 here, 40 seriously ill, and remaining
23 360 or so casualties. Are these numbers an accurate reflection of the
24 number of patients at the hospital on the 18th of November?
25 A. Yes. Those were the figures I notified Professor Hebrang about
1 concerning the type of wounded and ill we had. The 40 were intensive
2 care patients who had been wounded just a few days before that, and the
3 360 were the rest who were on their beds in the basement, and shelters.
4 Q. Now, under number 6 we see here that the Republic of Croatia and
5 the JNA will recognise the neutrality of the Vukovar Hospital during a
6 period covering the evacuation and that the hospital will be put under
7 the protection of the ICRC, who will advise both parties of the period of
8 neutrality. Is this something that you were informed about when speaking
9 with Minister Hebrang?
10 A. Yes, I was. I expected that the ICRC would arrive at the
11 hospital as well as the European observers so that the wounded and sick
12 as well as the staff would be evacuated irrespective of the JNA presence;
13 however, in the next several days it turned out not to be true.
14 Q. Now, what did the presence of the EC monitors and the ICRC and
15 the Maltese Cross mean to you at the Vukovar Hospital?
16 A. It meant that the wounded and medical staff would be evacuated in
17 a safe way and that it would offer a kind of protection from the
18 aggressors who had been attempting to destroy us for the past three
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, Your Honours, may I ask to tender this
22 document, please.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 601 will be Exhibit P1461.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
3 Q. Now, you told us that the evacuation did not take place on the
4 18th and you were able to speak with Minister Hebrang and a member of the
5 ECMM. What was then said about the evacuation on that day since it had
6 not taken place on the 18th?
7 A. Minister Hebrang told me that there were daily meetings and that
8 if not on the 18th, they would definitely be there on the 19th, that is
9 to say the ICRC and the European observers. The European observers told
10 me that they would arrive as soon as they were able to.
11 Q. Now, did they arrive at all during the course of the day on the
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Moving on to the 19th of November now, what were you
15 expecting to happen on the morning of the 19th?
16 A. We expected that it would take place on the 19th, but still no
17 one came that morning. Around 9.00 a.m., I managed to get ahold of
18 General Raseta in Zagreb by phone, who told me that evacuation would
19 begin shortly and that Colonel Mile Mrksic was in charge of that area. I
20 asked him where I could find him, and he said that he would find me.
21 Around noon, I received information from people who were in town
22 that the army had entered it and that they were at the bridge. I came to
23 the closest bridge to the hospital, but I did not see any ICRC staff
24 there. I could only see military APCs and reservists as well as
25 different members of paramilitary forces. I asked them where the ICRC
1 was, and one of them told me - and he was their superior on that APCs -
2 that they didn't know anything about it and that it was their task to
3 evacuate people only as far as the bridge and not beyond. It had to do
4 with a part of town --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of
6 that part of the town.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that I returned to the
8 hospital, and when the first JNA representatives appeared in front of the
9 hospital, I came out, and I asked that the ICRC and ECMM be present.
10 There was a JNA officer who told me that there was no ICRC or ECMM in
11 town and that they were in Negoslavci. I asked that I personally be
12 taken there so that I can get in touch with them.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
14 Q. Just a second, please, Doctor --
15 A. Before that I asked him --
16 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Earlier you were mentioning
17 that -- you asked them where the ICRC was at the bridge and one of them
18 told you who was their superior and that they didn't know anything about
19 it and that it was their task to evacuate people only as far as the
20 bridge and not beyond. And then you mentioned it had to do with a part
21 of town and the interpreters didn't catch the name of that part of town.
22 Could you tell that -- please tell us what that was?
23 A. The bridge I was at is a railroad bridge spanning the part of the
24 town where the hospital is and Priljevo which is a settlement inside the
25 town itself.
1 Q. Very well. Now, you were telling us that you asked to be taken
2 to Negoslavci. Did that happen?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us how far is Negoslavci from the hospital?
5 A. I can't be precise. Around 7 or 8 kilometres, I think.
6 Q. Okay. And who took you to Negoslavci?
7 A. A JNA officer in a military vehicle.
8 Q. And once you arrived in Negoslavci -- where in Negoslavci did he
9 take you?
10 A. He took me in front of a family home where there was a sign which
11 said "Staff." I met Colonel Mile Mrksic there.
12 Q. And when you met Mile Mrksic, how long did your interaction with
13 him last?
14 A. Perhaps half an hour.
15 Q. Okay. Can you describe to the Judges what was discussed during
16 this half-hour conversation with Mile Mrksic?
17 A. I asked him about the ICRC and the ECMM. I asked about hospital
18 evacuation. He told me that he was unaware of it all. I told him that
19 General Raseta had signed an agreement on behalf of the JNA. He said
20 that Raseta may well have signed it but that Raseta didn't know what was
21 going on in the field and that only he could decide on evacuation. I
22 told him that the situation at the hospital was very serious, that there
23 were many wounded and that there were wounded soldiers there, that there
24 was no water, that people were out of food and medication and that
25 evacuation should occur as soon as possible. He said that it was
1 possible to evacuate people via Sid and Adasevci, which is a village
2 which is in Serbia next to the Zagreb-Belgrade highway. I insisted that
3 the agreement be honoured and that evacuation should take place along the
4 Bogdanovci-Marinci-Nustar route. It was my information that ambulances
5 awaited there and buses to evacuate the lightly wounded and civilians.
6 He said then that it would only be possible to do that on Wednesday,
7 because they would have to de-mine a part at Zidine. At the time I
8 didn't even know what it meant. It turns out Zidine was a military area
9 near Nustar.
10 Q. Doctor, you say here that Mrksic said it would only be possible
11 to do that on Wednesday. Could you perhaps place us --
12 A. Yes, the 20th.
13 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, I understand from what you just told
14 us that he didn't agree with the route. What did he say about the
15 remainder of the items, in relation to the evacuation agreement, which
16 you were informing him about?
17 A. He told me --
18 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry --
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, Dr. Bosanac.
20 MR. GOSNELL: I'm not sure that the last element has -- depending
21 on how it was translated to the witness, I'm not sure it's accurate to
22 say that she was informing him about the agreement.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I can rephrase that. I can rephrase that,
24 because earlier the Doctor did say that she informed Mr. Mrksic of the
25 substance. But let me put it that way.
1 Q. Doctor, earlier you told us that you were informing Mile Mrksic
2 of the existence of the evacuation [sic]. You told us you were expecting
3 the ECMM and the ICRC to be present. You've now told us he didn't agree
4 with the route to be taken. What was said, if anything, about the other
5 aspects of the agreement?
6 A. He said that the ICRC and ECMM would shortly arrive at the
7 hospital. I told him we were expecting them as it was contained in the
8 agreement. Then the driver returned me to the hospital.
9 In the village, at the end of the road I saw a vehicle of the
10 ECMM, and I asked the driver to take me there to get in touch with them.
11 However, he said he would need to ask for permission to do so, and he
12 went inside the staff building. When he returned, he said he was ordered
13 to take me back to the hospital. So I wasn't able to establish contact
14 that day with the ECMM or the ICRC in Negoslavci. I was returned back to
15 the hospital.
16 Q. Now, on your way back --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian --
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, at line 7 of page 19, you asked:
20 Doctor, earlier you tell us that you were informing Mile Mrksic about the
21 existence of the evacuation.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Agreement.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think you meant agreement, right?
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The agreement. Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
2 Q. Now, Doctor, on your way back to the hospital, did anything in
3 particular happen?
4 A. Yes. It was important for me. En route back to the hospital I
5 met my mother who was moving on foot with a group of people around town.
6 She could barely walk. She was dragging her headscarf in the dust, and I
7 asked that she be picked up with -- by car and -- actually, to be taken
8 in the car that we were in, and she came back to the hospital with us.
9 She told me then that they were driving all civilians to the Velepromet
10 compound and that my father and mother-in-law had already been taken
12 Q. Doctor, I'd like you to take a look at the next footage which is
13 at 65 ter 4986.3, at tab 21. That is, tab J for the interpreters, and it
14 will start at the 1 hour, 33 minutes, and 44 seconds mark. And I believe
15 we can start, yes.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Driver: ... most of the civilians
18 have already been evacuated, you know. Today ... you saw it when they
19 arrived --
20 "Doctor Bosanac: Wait, that's my mum. Just a moment, please.
21 Where is Granny Milica" --
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
23 Q. What do we see here, Dr. Bosanac?
24 A. That is the moment as I was returning from Negoslavci when the
25 car was stopped so that I could take my mother with me.
1 Q. And the -- I mean, we will see more in a second, but in relation
2 to the soldier who's accompanying there, on the left side of his shoulder
3 what do you see on his shoulder?
4 A. I can't really see it well, but it must be some kind of rank.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let's keep playing the clip, please.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Doctor Bosanac: -- and the
9 "Mom: ... they came to the gas station in a red car.
10 "Doctor Bosanac: Where, which gas station?
11 "JNA Officer: This gas station, everybody's being evacuated,
12 later ...
13 "Doctor Bosanac: Please, can you take me back, those are my
14 mother and father-in-law.
15 "JNA Officer: Everybody is being evacuated. They are going to
16 Velepromet, that's why we are evacuating them.
17 "Doctor Bosanac: To Velepromet?
18 "JNA Officer: Bogdan, can it --"
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. I hear the -- someone says, "Bogdan" -- well, first of all, can
21 you tell us what you see on this image?
22 A. It is the footage of a conversation between the JNA officer and
23 myself and Bogdan Kuzmic, who is in military uniform with a helmet on.
24 Q. In which part of the screen can we see Bogdan Kuzmic? You can't
25 really mark it, if you could just tell us.
1 A. On the left side in this still.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we still play it.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Bogdan Kuzmic: Listen good, she is
6 my neighbour, once was and always will be.
7 "Doctor Bosanac: Don't get upset, Bogdan, everything will be all
8 right ...
9 "JNA Officer: Can you see to it, her father and mother-in-law
10 have gone to the gas station?
11 "Doctor Bosanac: ... you know where that is ..."
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
13 Q. Now, we just saw a soldier tapping you on your back. Who was
15 A. I can't see that. Bogdan Kuzmic lived near to my apartment
16 building, and before the war he worked at the reception in the hospital.
17 Q. We'll rewind this just a little bit to make sure who the person
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: A little bit more, please.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
23 Q. So I just wanted to identify who was the person tapping you on
24 your back there.
25 A. I recognise that it may be Bogdan, although I cannot see clearly
1 or recall things off the cuff.
2 Q. That's fine. Thank you, Doctor. Now, this took place, as you
3 described, right after you had met with Mile Mrksic; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. When I returned to Vukovar.
5 Q. And did the JNA officer who is at the right, were you aware of
6 which unit he belonged to?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask to tender this clip,
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4986.3 will be Exhibit P1462.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
15 Q. Now, Doctor, earlier you told us that before leaving the hospital
16 for Negoslavci the first JNA soldiers had arrived. Upon your return, can
17 you tell the Court who was in control at the hospital?
18 A. What do you mean, in control? I was still the manager of the
20 Q. Very well. You were still the director of the hospital on that
21 day; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, I would like you to look at the next clip which is 65 ter
24 4989.4 at tab 99. For the interpreters, it is tab F.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "They could have gone home, if they
2 were allowed to, but we are in the war and there is no chance that a
3 slightly wounded person might go home; they have to stay and wait for
4 evacuation. The biggest problem is that [indiscernible] was done today,
5 but then again it was not done, and we hope that tomorrow it will finally
6 be carried out because we have here the first [indiscernible] gangrene,
7 infections, there is no water ... you will see it for yourselves. The
8 things that are --"
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
10 Q. Doctor, who are you talking to, do you know?
11 A. I was addressing those JNA officers who had come that afternoon
12 to the hospital, but there was still no ICRC, only in the early afternoon
13 did Major Sljivancanin come to the hospital. I believe he's not in this
14 footage. I saw him first in the yard of the hospital, and he started the
15 evacuation of civilians from the hospital. I protested and insisted that
16 the wounded be the first to be evacuated once the ICRC arrives; however,
17 he was very resolute. He was adamant and arrogant, and he said that from
18 that moment on he was in charge of the hospital and he had to evacuate
19 civilians first. That was on the Monday, the 19th, around 7.00, and only
20 around 7.00 p.m. did the first representative of the ICRC arrive at the
21 hospital, Mr. --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did for the hear the name.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
24 Q. Doctor, let me clarify a few little bits the answer you just gave
25 us. First of all, at the beginning of your answer you told us that
1 Major Sljivancanin started the evacuation of the civilians from the
2 hospital. Are you aware of where he was taking the civilians from the
4 A. At that time I didn't know. I learned later that they took
5 everyone to Velepromet.
6 Q. And then towards the end of your answer, you said this was Monday
7 the 19th, around 7.00.
8 A. No, it was not Monday. It was Tuesday. Tuesday, the 19th.
9 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, around what time did
10 Major Sljivancanin begin this evacuation of the civilians?
11 A. In the afternoon, around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m. I don't know exactly,
12 but it was still in daylight, soon after I returned from Negoslavci.
13 Q. And around what time did the representative of the ICRC arrive?
14 A. Around 7.00 p.m., also accompanied by Major Sljivancanin.
15 Q. Thank you. And the interpreters didn't catch the name of the
16 ICRC representative. What was his name?
17 A. Bossinger or Borsinger. I don't know exactly how to spell it.
18 You'll find it probably in the earlier documents.
19 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before I move on, Your Honours, may I ask for
21 this clip to be tendered, this was 65 ter 4989.4.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the clip will be Exhibit P1463.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
1 Q. May I show you now, Doctor, the next clip which is 4989.6 at
2 tab 99. And that is tab G for the interpreters.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Djuro Srenk: There is no water --"
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Pause, please. Sorry.
6 Q. Before we move on, Doctor, do you recognise this individual on
7 the screen?
8 A. This is our handyman from the technical staff of the hospital,
9 Djuro Srenk was his name.
10 Q. And how long had he worked for the hospital at the time, in
11 November 1991?
12 A. A number of years. I can't say exactly, but a number of years.
13 He was the handyman at the hospital.
14 Q. Okay. And between the months of September and November was he
15 also working at the hospital?
16 A. Yes. He worked throughout at the hospital.
17 Q. And can you tell the Court whether Mr. Srenk is still alive?
18 A. No. He was killed at Ovcara.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can you play the rest of the clip, please.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Djuro Srenk: -- we have no water.
22 It is a disease cesspool, up to 500, 700 ... How long has it been, since
23 they arrived? There are maybe a thousand patients and these are the
24 people who all go to the toilet there."
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this short clip which
1 was 4989.6.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4989.6 will be Exhibit P1464.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. And can we play the next clip which
6 is 4989.10 at tab 99. And this is tab H for the interpreters.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: As a Frenchman, what are
9 you doing in Vukovar?"
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Pause here.
11 Q. Do you recognise this person, Dr. Bosanac?
12 A. It's a patient, Jean-Michel Nicolier, who was a volunteer on the
13 Vukovar defence, and he was at the hospital as one of the wounded waiting
14 for evacuation like everyone else.
15 Q. And do you know with a happened to him?
16 A. He was also taken away on the 20th November, but I don't think he
17 has been identified to date as one of those killed at Ovcara. I think
18 he's still on record as a missing person.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we keep playing the rest of the video,
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Jean-Michel Nicolier: I came as a
23 volunteer and we lost. This is the first time I see them this close to
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
1 Q. Now, do you recognise the soldier who just entered the image at
2 this time, which is at 20 seconds of this clip?
3 A. Yes, that's Bogdan Kuzmic.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. Let's keep playing.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: Are you afraid?
7 "Jean-Michel Nicolier: I'm not afraid. Soldiers are soldiers.
8 I am a soldier as well. Of course, there are stupid people on all sides.
9 What can you do? That's the way it is. I cannot, just because I'm
10 French, pass 'in between the raindrops.' If I hadn't seen all this, I'd
11 be gone a long time ago. But I'm here and I'll stay here, for better or
12 worse ... in the good and the bad. There."
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
14 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this clip which is
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, 4989.10 will be
19 Exhibit P1465.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
21 Q. And can I show you a last clip which is 4989.11 at tab 21, and
22 for the interpreters that is tab I. The clip, I believe, will be in
23 German but we have transcripts both in B/C/S and English.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Ivan Herman: I don't know what was
1 happening, who was with whom, how, and so on ... I don't know anything."
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Pause.
3 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this person?
4 A. Yes. That's also one of the wounded people. Herman was his
5 name, wounded in the leg. He was at the hospital as well awaiting
7 Q. Was Herman his first or last name?
8 A. His last name. Ivan Herman is his full name.
9 Q. Very well. And do you know what happened to him?
10 A. I'm not sure any more whether he was identified as one of the
11 victims from Ovcara - I'm not sure - or he's still recorded as missing.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We can keep playing the video.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: Do you know what the
15 city is like now?
16 "Ivan Herman: I know, I know. It's destroyed."
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
18 Your Honours, may I tender this last clip which was 4989.11.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P1466.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
22 Q. Now, Doctor, you explained that at 7.00 Mr. Borsinger from the
23 ICRC arrived with Mr. Sljivancanin. Can you tell us what you -- well,
24 what was your interaction with both these men at that time?
25 A. Apart from the two of them, there was also one physician and an
1 interpreter, a woman interpreter. I said the conditions in the hospital
2 were very hard, that we had been awaiting the evacuation for a week, that
3 we had prepared everything. They asked me if I had a list of people. I
4 said yes, we had made a list of all the wounded, complete with diagnosis.
5 They asked us to hand them those lists and we did. I thought, in fact,
6 that the ICRC would need only one list and we could keep the rest;
7 however, Major Sljivancanin insisted to get all the copies of the lists.
8 He asked if we also had a list of the staff. I said no. It hadn't
9 seemed to us necessary. So we made a list of the staff that evening.
10 Mr. Borsinger said, after touring the hospital and after they saw
11 what the situation was like, he said they had to leave and they would
12 come back the next morning, which surprised me quite a lot because I
13 expected them as the ICRC, once they arrived, to stay and take care of
14 the hospital. However, he said he had to leave and he would be back at
15 8.00 the next morning.
16 Q. Did he expect -- did he explain to you why he had to leave?
17 A. He didn't tell me anything. He just said he had to leave. I had
18 expected them to stay, but he said they would be back in the morning and
19 had to return to Belgrade. That worried me very seriously after
20 everything we had gone through, but considering that he had seen the
21 situation with his own eyes and we had turned over all the lists of the
22 wounded, I certainly wasn't expecting that the evacuation would not be
23 handled by them and that everything that later happened would happen.
24 Q. Now, did he -- what choice did he have to stay at the hospital
25 that evening?
1 A. Of course he could have stayed at the hospital, and we expected
2 him to. I don't know what he discussed with Sljivancanin and what
3 Sljivancanin had told him, but if I had been in his shoes, I would have
5 Q. Now, when you were touring the hospital with him, you said he saw
6 the situation. Who else was with you and Mr. Borsinger?
7 A. There was Sljivancanin and that Swiss doctor.
8 Q. Very well. How long did he stay at the hospital that evening?
9 A. About an hour, I think.
10 Q. Very well. And was there any discussion in relation to the
11 evacuation agreement?
12 A. Of course, but as I said, he still left. It's obvious that
13 everybody interpreted that agreement in their own way. I don't know what
14 organising evacuation meant to him. It would be a good idea for this
15 Court to call him as a witness.
16 Q. Now, can I ask you to look at the next video-clip which is 65 ter
17 4989.5 at tab 21. And for the interpreters it is tab K. Yes.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Nicolas Borsinger: We are --"
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
21 Q. Do you know who this person is?
22 A. Yes, that's Borsinger.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. Let's keep playing.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Nicolas Borsinger: We are present
1 here to remind the warring parties of the humanitarian measures that need
2 to be undertaken for this kind of operation to proceed properly."
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
4 Q. Now, Doctor, with -- with the end of the conflict you talked to
5 us about the fact that there was an evacuation agreement and that the
6 possibility of an evacuation was always there.
7 A. I can't hear the interpreter.
8 Q. Can you hear me now?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you told us earlier that there was word of an evacuation in
11 the days leading to the fall of Vukovar. How do you interpret the words
12 that we have heard now where Mr. Borsinger is saying that the ICRC's
13 present here to remind the warring parties of the humanitarian measures
14 to be undertaken in this kind of operation?
15 A. I cannot comment. I don't know what he meant by that. It's
16 obvious that he as the ICRC representative did not implement the
17 evacuation agreement that was endorsed in Zagreb by the ECMM.
18 Q. Now, when he left that evening, what did he tell you about the
20 A. That he would be back the next morning at 8.00.
21 Q. And did he tell you for what purpose he would return the next day
22 at 8.00?
23 A. To carry out the evacuation.
24 Q. And when you heard that he said that he would return to carry out
25 the evacuation, what did that mean to you at that moment?
1 A. I hoped that things would happen like he said.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this clip which is
3 4989.5, please.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4989.5 will be Exhibit P1467.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
7 Q. Now, after he left that evening, was anything in particular
8 taking place at the hospital?
9 A. Yes. First of all, Sljivancanin came looking for a lady doctor
10 to see if she was at the hospital. Then he took her away for an
11 interview. Then an officer came for me. A JNA officer came to take me
12 somewhere for an interview, and he took me again to Negoslavci. There I
13 was interrogated by Sljivancanin and another -- I don't know what he was
14 exactly. A man wearing a black uniform. Perhaps he was an investigator
15 or a policeman, I don't know. At any rate, they were questioning me
16 there; it lasted for about an hour. They questioned me about the
17 whereabouts of the Vukovar defence commanders, their identity. I
18 expected to be taken back to the hospital; however, they did not take me
19 back. They left me to spend the night at Negoslavci, at the schoolhouse
20 which they used as a military hospital and a barracks. I saw a lot of
21 troops there. I stayed there until 6.00 a.m., when they picked me up
22 again and took me away in a military vehicle where Marin Vidic was there,
23 and they took me back to the hospital on Wednesday, on the 20th, around
24 6.00 that ...
25 Q. May I return to this questioning that you referred to by
1 Sljivancanin. You said that he asked you about the whereabouts of the
2 Vukovar defence commanders. In what way did he behave towards you?
3 A. He was arrogant. I said I had no idea where the defence
4 commanders were or who they were. He was very angry, very arrogant. He
5 wanted to know who had killed his young soldiers, and I asked in my turn
6 why he had brought them to Vukovar in the first place. He was very
8 I asked to be taken back to the hospital, but they refused. They
9 said it was dangerous to drive by night, and they left me in Negoslavci
10 until the morning. I later heard that that night many people were taken
11 away for interrogation. Some of them never returned, like Branko Lukenda
12 and Tomislav Hegedus, men who worked for the police. They were taken
13 away that night, and they never returned. Nobody knows where they ended
15 Also, our medical technician Marko Mandic was taken away that
16 night. Nobody knows where he ended up or where his grave is.
17 Q. And you told us that you heard that many people were taken away.
18 Were you informed of who took them away?
19 A. As far as Marko Mandic is concerned, I heard Bogdan Kuzmic was
20 the one who took him away. I heard that from Marko's wife. I don't know
21 about the others. They were probably taken away by some members of the
22 army as I was taken by them to Negoslavci.
23 Q. Now, earlier we saw footage with Bogdan Kuzmic at the hospital.
24 You also told us that Veselin Sljivancanin was at the hospital. Could
25 you give an idea to the Court as to how many JNA soldiers or officers
1 were present at the hospital on the afternoon of the 19th?
2 A. Around 20.
3 Q. Very well. And where did you see these soldiers or officers?
4 A. The soldiers were posted at the entrance to the hospital, at
5 different entrances to the hospital, and they walked around the hallways,
6 the yard.
7 Q. And you're saying they were posted at the entrances of the
8 hospital. For what purpose?
9 A. Well, even before I went to Negoslavci the first time when that
10 first officer came to the hospital, I asked if they were able to
11 guarantee safety to the hospital pending the arrival of the ICRC. And
12 back then he posted those soldiers - they were military police officers -
13 at the entrances to the hospital, and they were there throughout the time
14 that I was there until they took me away to detention on the Wednesday,
15 the 20th.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Your Honours, I notice the time.
17 It might be an appropriate moment for the break.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Dr. Bosanac, we'll take the first break and come
19 back at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of the court. Thank
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: While the witness is being brought in, let me
3 update you in relation to the motion that we're filing this morning. We
4 are in a position to file within the next hour or so. If I do finish my
5 examination-in-chief before the end of the day, I suspect that we can
6 begin cross-examination with the possibility of me doing further
7 re-examination-in-chief tomorrow morning once the Defence has had the
8 time to read and digest our motion, respond to that. Would that be an
9 acceptable procedure?
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell?
11 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I suppose that would be the only possible
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: So you expect to finish your examination-in-chief
14 before the end of the hearing today?
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm hoping to.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're hoping to,
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I'd like us to go now to the morning of the 20th of
24 November. You told us that that morning you were taken back by car with
25 Marin Vidic. Can you tell us again at what time exactly you returned to
1 the hospital on the morning of the 20th of November, 1991?
2 A. It was precisely 6.00 when the driver came to pick me up with a
3 JNA vehicle. He took me back to the hospital. I was back there at
4 around 6.30.
5 Q. Very well. Now, on that morning what was the situation in
6 relation to shelling and artillery fire which you described throughout
7 the months of October and November? What was the situation on the
8 morning of the 20th of November?
9 A. On the 20th in the morning there was no more shooting any more.
10 I couldn't hear any detonations or shooting.
11 Q. And I failed to ask you this earlier, but what was the situation
12 on the 19th of November in relation to shelling and shooting?
13 A. I didn't hear any explosions or shells on the 19th either. It
14 was a quiet time as regards explosions and shooting.
15 Q. And in your assessment, what was -- what were the conditions in
16 relation to an evacuation on the 19th? Were there conditions actually?
17 A. I think there were conditions in place, preconditions in place.
18 If the ICRC and ECMM had come on the 18th, as had been agreed upon, on
19 the 19th evacuation may well have been possible.
20 Q. Very well. Now, returning to this issue of the 20th, you said
21 that it was at 6.30 to be precise that you were back at the hospital.
22 What happened at the hospital at that moment?
23 A. I was in my office waiting for the ICRC. The phone rang several
24 times. There was a JNA officer with me in the office who would not let
25 me answer it. He answered every call, responding that he was an officer
1 of the victorious army and that I could not answer the phone.
2 Q. Very well. Now, did anything specific happen shortly after
3 this -- what you just described?
4 A. An officer arrived asking which large room could be used to hold
5 a meeting with the staff. The only larger room was the casting room
6 where there were no patients. I was taken there, by which time all of
7 the staff had been brought there as well, or most of them, most of the
8 people working at the hospital in Vukovar. It was there that
9 Major Sljivancanin gave a speech in the presence of another five military
10 persons who were introduced to us as military doctors. The JNA had its
11 own VMA, which is the Military Medical Academy. The physicians in
12 question were in JNA uniform. Sljivancanin said that as of that day, the
13 hospital would be under the competence of the VMA and that all of the
14 staff who were gathered there could decide whether they wanted to remain
15 working in the hospital or if they wished to be evacuated.
16 Q. Now, around about what time did this meeting take place?
17 A. At 7.30. As far as I recall.
18 Q. And how long did it last?
19 A. Half an hour. I was returned to my office at around 8.00. I sat
20 there for a while. A JNA representative arrived and said that
21 Marin Vidic and I were to go with him. Marin Vidic was with me in the
22 same room.
23 The two of us went outside, walked down the line of the medical
24 personnel who were lined up outside awaiting evacuation. I was convinced
25 at the time that we were going to be taken to a range and evacuation, but
1 we were actually taken to a detention unit in the barracks, the JNA
2 barracks in Vukovar.
3 Q. Now, that morning, which -- which international organisation, if
4 any, were present at the hospital?
5 A. I didn't see anyone then.
6 Q. You told us that Sljivancanin said that as of that day the
7 hospital would be under the competence of the military hospital. During
8 this meeting, were you aware of what was happening outside the room?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you told us a moment ago that when you left, you saw the
11 staff lined up waiting for the evacuation. Was there anything else that
12 you noticed at that moment?
13 A. No. We went past the line of medical personnel to the military
14 vehicle which took us away.
15 Q. Very well. Now, you say that you were then taken with
16 Marin Vidic to the JNA barracks. How much time did it take from the
17 hospital to the barracks?
18 A. Ten to 15 minutes, I think.
19 Q. Very well. And where were you taken once you arrived at the
21 A. To a room on the first floor. A military policeman was inside
22 and stayed there throughout while we were seated there.
23 Q. And how long were you held in that room?
24 A. The whole day.
25 Q. Who, if anyone, visited you in that room?
1 A. A JNA representative came and brought in some food, some cold
2 cuts, but other than that no one came to talk to us until that evening.
3 Q. And were you able to speak to the international monitors or the
4 ICRC on that day?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Doctor, I'd like to show you a clip now which is 65 ter 4989.9 at
7 tab 21. For the interpreters, that is tab N.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "So you [indiscernible] you can worry also about his soldiers who
10 are [indiscernible] killing today. It's not your attitude" --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't find it under N.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
13 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with this footage?
14 A. I saw it later upon my arrival in Zagreb.
15 Q. And are you -- can you tell us where this is taking place, where
16 this footage was filmed?
17 A. It was taken somewhere in the centre of town, to the -- to the
18 right is Mr. Borsinger, and to the left is Major Sljivancanin.
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we keep playing the video -- before we do
21 that, did we locate the translation for the interpreters?
22 Okay. It is indeed under tab N. Do the interpreters have the
23 transcript which starts at 10 minutes, 57 seconds?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. I believe that the first two seconds
1 might have been missing but it is correct. Let's keep playing it.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "You're not welcome.
4 "Veselin Sljivancanin: [Interpretation] Sir, my soldiers lost
5 their life here tonight. Sir, there's a war here.
6 "Nicolas Borsinger: All we knew was that there was a convoy
7 leaving the hospital and at the same time they are trying to deny us
8 access to the hospital and that ... so, in such circumstances we couldn't
9 but ask what is really going on
10 "Veselin Sljivancanin: [Interpretation] [indiscernible] behave
11 the way before me [indiscernible] security and peace and you're causing
12 problems for me. If you don't like it, go ahead and go back. Go where
13 you like it. I'm ashamed that you're treating me this way. I gave you
14 everything you asked for."
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
16 Q. Doctor, the previous evening you told us that you saw Borsinger
17 and Sljivancanin at the hospital; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How would you compare -- well, first of all, how was he speaking
20 or addressing -- or how was Sljivancanin addressing Borsinger that
21 evening when you saw them?
22 A. What do you mean how? In a rather normal tone. He didn't shout
23 like in the last clip.
24 Q. Very well. And did you recognise anybody else on that video-clip
25 besides Sljivancanin and Borsinger?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this clip which is
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4989.9 will be Exhibit P1468.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
8 Q. Now, Doctor, earlier we saw the evacuation agreement, and you
9 read out the part which dealt with the principle of neutrality. How was
10 this applied on the 20th of November, 1991?
11 A. It wasn't.
12 Q. And can you explain to us how it wasn't?
13 A. Well, it wasn't, because neither the ICRC nor the ECMM were
14 present on the morning the 20th when Major Sljivancanin said that as of
15 that moment on the hospital was under the competence of the JNA and the
17 Q. Very well. I'd like you to take a look at the next clip which is
18 65 ter 4799.11. This is at tab 91. For the interpreters it should be
19 tab O.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Nicolas Borsinger: This went on
22 for quite a long time. I would just like to say that last night -- in
23 fact yesterday afternoon, we made agreement with the JNA which was
24 represented by General Raseta and the Croatian government. The object of
25 this agreement was to neutralise the Vukovar Hospital in accordance with
1 Article 15 of the Geneva Convention. I will go into detail about this
2 agreement. The objective was for it to come into force at 20:00 hours
3 last night on the 19th of November. According to this agreement, access
4 to the hospital and surrounding buildings was limited to patients and
5 military personnel as the first category; the second category were
6 civilians who did not participate in the war; the third category was the
7 medical staff; and the fourth was the delegates of the International Red
8 Cross. Point three prohibited bringing any military equipment into the
9 hospital. Gentlemen, you know and you can see what actually happened
10 here. Except for these four categories of the people we -- of people we
11 mentioned, no one else was allowed to enter the hospital unless they had
12 a permit issued by the International Red Cross. You saw how this
13 agreement was sought. Secondly, we said that the hospital needed to be
14 clearly marked with a red cross. The last item is exceptionally
15 important because it says that the Croatian authorities and the JNA will
16 provide full co-operation with the International Red Cross in order to
17 implement the agreement. You probably noticed that the International
18 Committee was -- or, rather, was not able to carry out the task it was
19 entrusted with, and therefore it cannot be held responsible for this
20 morning's events. And now I do not know, because I was prevented from
21 entering the hospital area."
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We can pause here.
23 Q. Doctor, that morning could you -- did you know who exactly took
24 you from the hospital to the JNA barracks?
25 A. A JNA officer. I don't know what his name is or what his rank
2 Q. And are you aware of who was -- who was in charge at that moment
3 of the JNA officers at the hospital?
4 A. Major Sljivancanin was.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask for 4799.11 to be
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 4799.11 will be Exhibit
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
11 Q. Doctor, on that day were there any members of your family at the
13 A. Yes. My mother was there, as well as my in-laws.
14 Q. And could you tell the Court what happened to them on that day?
15 A. My mother said that a soldier came in the hospital and said that
16 all of those who could walk should go out. My father-in-law came out of
17 the basement where they had been awaiting evacuation. He was elderly and
18 sick and had problems with his legs. He went outside to stretch his legs
19 and was taken away. For a long time he was considered missing, until he
20 was identified in 1996 as having been killed at Ovcara. My mother and my
21 mother-in-law came out with the rest of civilians and went to Zagreb.
22 When I came after a prisoner exchange, I found them in Zagreb.
23 Q. And, Doctor, you told us that your father-in-law was killed at
24 Ovcara. For the record, could you tell us his name?
25 A. My father-in-law's name was Dragutin Bosanac. When he was being
1 identified, we saw a forensic medical report in the English language.
2 His identification was carried out by American pathologists. In the
3 identification report, one could clearly see that he was the person in
4 question given his previous ailments and the artefacts found next to his
5 skeleton, as well as clothes, home keys, some documents he had with him.
6 The cause of death was through wounds to the head.
7 Q. Now, Doctor, we know what happened to name of patients and
8 persons, other men from the hospital on the day of the 20th of November.
9 I would like to ask you of those who were later found to be killed at
10 Ovcara, were there any staff members of the hospital?
11 A. Yes. At Ovcara during exhumations, 200 bodies were dug out. Out
12 of those, 193 have been identified. Among them there were the wounded
13 and defenders and civilians and hospital staff, including Djuro Srenk
14 whom you saw in the footage. On top of that there were some youngsters,
15 minors, a nurse's son, a cleaning lady's son and husband who worked at
16 the hospital during the war. Basically everyone who was taken from the
17 hospital. It isn't all of them, though, because even to date 58 persons
18 are still being sought out of those taken from the hospital. It includes
19 33 wounded persons and civilians, policemen such as Branko Lukenda and
20 Tomislav Hegedus, and then the medical technician Marko Mandic. Two
21 hundred and ninety-six people are still missing from the town of Vukovar;
22 out of that number, 58 of them were taken from the hospital.
23 Q. Doctor, at this time I would like to show you a document.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before I do that, Your Honours, what I'm about
25 to show is the list of identified victims from the Ovcara mass grave.
1 Prior to the witness coming to the court, I did ask her to identify which
2 of those were hospital staff members and family members of the hospital
3 staff. So this is a list that is pre-marked. I've shared this
4 information with the Defence so that we save time in the courtroom rather
5 than having the witness mark them one by one. I just want to ensure that
6 before I proceed that this is accepted by the Defence and by the Chamber.
7 MR. GOSNELL: We've agreed to that.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. May I display the
10 document on the screen?
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is 65 ter 5846.1. The original 5846 was
13 at - let me tell you the tab - tab 107. Very well. Can we enlarge this?
14 Thank you.
15 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the list you see in front of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Very well. First of all, could you tell us what this -- what the
18 markings we see in handwritten form are?
19 A. They represent how these people were related to the medical staff
20 in the hospital. The first person is the husband of a lady who worked in
21 the hospital. Then the one marked with HS, Ilija Asadjanin, he was a
22 driver working for the hospital; Ivan Bainrauh was a mechanical engineer
23 who was the head of technical personnel at the hospital. Josip Balog was
24 the son of our laundry woman; he was 16 at the time. Dragutin Balog was
25 the laundry woman's husband and Josip's father. He was a sick man. He
1 had cancer of his throat and he had a prosthesis, and on my permission
2 they were accommodated at the hospital together with the laundry lady.
3 Q. Doctor, for the understanding of the Trial Chamber, could you
4 tell us what FHS and what HS stand for?
5 A. FHS stands for family hospital staff. HS stands for hospital
7 Q. Okay. So FHS, family hospital staff, means that these were
8 members of the family of the hospital staff member, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we turn to the next page, please. Do we see three more
11 markings on this page?
12 A. Yes, Tomislav Baumgertner was the son of one of our nurses. He
13 was born in 1973, which means that he was 17. Then Dragutin Bosanac, my
14 father-in-law. Tomislav Bosanac is a relative, a nephew of my husband
15 who was accompanying his wounded wife. She was a nurse and she was
16 seriously wounded at the hospital at that time. I personally cautioned
17 Major Sljivancanin that the seriously wounded always have somebody to
18 accompany them, and this Tomislav was accompanying his seriously injured
19 wife, but he was taken away anyway and executed at Ovcara.
20 Q. Let's look at one more page. Can we go to the next one, please?
21 Here we see two more markings at page 3.
22 A. Ivan Buovac was a driver. Petar Furundzija was the husband of
23 one of our employees.
24 Q. Very well. And is it correct to say that on the remaining pages
25 we also have these two terms, HS and FHS, used throughout the document?
1 A. Yes. We discussed this before this trial.
2 Q. And could we go to the last page, page 12. On this page we see
3 two more markings, and we see on one of the patients that the name
4 Dominik Zeravica has been circled. Can you tell us if there's anything
5 particular about this victim?
6 A. Concerning this victim, there is a nota bene of the commission
7 for the missing. He was identified by DNA analysis; however, the family
8 did not accept this finding. So the commission still has him on record
9 as a missing person.
10 Q. Very well.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I make an application to
12 tender this marked version which is 5846.1.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 5846.1 will be Exhibit P1470.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
17 Q. Now, Doctor, are you able to tell us how many of the killed
18 persons at Ovcara were hospital patients?
19 A. We still don't know about many of them. Not all have been
20 identified out of the 193. Ninety-two were wounded according to what we
21 know today. Considering all the medical records from the Vukovar
22 Hospital have still not been returned and our -- and are somewhere in the
23 archive of the military court in Belgrade, all that we know for sure is
24 that the list of the wounded made on the 20th November that we were able
25 to send to the Ministry of Health, and according to the lists in the
1 notebooks that were returned to us two years ago with the mediation of
2 the President of Serbia, that was when a smaller part of our
3 documentation was returned, including notebooks of the head nurse giving
4 exact information about all the wounded, complete with the date of
5 admission and the reason why they were admitted.
6 Q. Doctor, out of the identified 193 victims, do you know out of
7 that number how many were hospital patients?
8 A. Ninety-three, I said.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Could we display the 65 ter 636,
10 which is at tab 43.
11 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this document?
12 A. This is a list of the wounded from the Vukovar Hospital who have
13 been identified at Ovcara. From all the identified -- from all the
14 available information I prepared this list for one of the trials here in
15 The Hague.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the next page. Yes.
17 Q. We see the continuation of this list going down up to -- well, in
18 the B/C/S version to 75, I believe. Yes.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And can we go to the third page, please. Yes.
20 Q. Yes. And the very last name here is at number 97, I believe. Is
21 that number accurate, Dr. Bosanac?
22 A. Yes, the number is accurate, except that we did not have
23 documentation for all these persons showing that they were wounded, but
24 we do know that they were taken from the Vukovar Hospital.
25 Q. Okay. If we go to page 4, which is the next page in both
1 versions, can you tell us what we are looking at here?
2 A. This is a questionnaire that we filled during the war concerning
3 all wounded persons, and we sent it to the main medical staff at the
4 Ministry of Health so that by 6 November we were able to e-mail this
5 data. After that date the communications broke down and we were unable
6 to send any more lists of the wounded that way.
7 Q. Now, we see here the name of the person, gender, date of birth,
8 et cetera, and then we see if they have a hospitalisation diagnosis.
9 Could you explain to us what is the diagnosis, please?
10 A. "Vul explos genus sinos," that means a blast wound to the left
11 knee and lower leg. The data was entered on the 21st of October, 1991.
12 Q. And how were you able to prepare this certificate? Specifically,
13 how were you able to collect this information in relation to the wound?
14 A. This data was entered in fact based on the medical documentation
15 that we had for every patient. The description of the condition,
16 doctor's findings, et cetera. The problem was with those who were
17 brought in after the 6th of November. We were no longer able to enter
18 that kind of information and their medical records were taken away and
19 still had not been returned. All of the information we have about them
20 comes from those notebooks, the notebooks from the head nurse that we got
21 back only two years ago, and from those notebooks we were able to fill in
22 some more information, and the medical records have still not been
23 returned to the Vukovar Hospital.
24 Q. Now, at the beginning of this document, the first thing we saw
25 was a list of the wounded with 97 patients, and now we see a casualty
1 certificate. Is there a casualty certificate in this bundle for every
2 patient listed from 1 to 97?
3 A. From one of the previous trials here in The Hague I prepared
4 protocols, and in the cases where we had death certificate, I was able to
5 include it as well as the photograph with the personal details for every
6 person that I was able to get from the association of mothers searching
7 for their missing sons and fathers from lists of camp inmates. So I
8 prepared these search protocols for those persons who were at the time
9 detained, dead, or missing.
10 Q. Doctor, in relation to my specific question, I was asking you
11 whether there is a similar casualty certificate for every one of the 97
12 listed people at the beginning of the document?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask to tender this document.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 636 will be Exhibit P1471.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
19 Q. Now, Doctor, you explained to us earlier that on the 20th of
20 November you were kept at the JNA barracks the entire day. What happened
21 to you next?
22 A. On Wednesday, the 20th November?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. In the evening of the 20th at the barracks I was interrogated for
25 the first time. There were video cameras there. I was questioned about
1 what went on at the Vukovar Hospital during the war. After that,
2 together with Dr. Njavro and Anto Maric [as interpreted] I was taken in a
3 police vehicle to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica. In the morning of the
4 21st, very early, I was brought to that prison.
5 Q. How long were you kept in the prison in Sremska Mitrovica?
6 A. About three weeks, perhaps a little less.
7 Q. And on the 20th of November -- oh, sorry, on the 21st of
8 November, were you informed as to why you were taken to
9 Sremska Mitrovica?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And upon your arrival at Sremska Mitrovica, where were you taken
13 A. At the prison there was an officer of the Yugoslav Army who said
14 I had been brought there to be investigated about the situation in
16 Q. And once you arrive at the -- at the prison, where were you taken
18 A. I was taken to a room -- in fact, Dr. Njavro, this
19 Ante Maric [as interpreted] and I were taken there together. Dr. Njavro
20 was forced to stand against the wall looking down and with his hands
21 behind his back, whereas Anto Aric [as interpreted] was severely beaten
22 by the prison guards. That shook me up terribly, and I protested with
23 the commander of that prison over the beating. I underwent the procedure
24 of questioning. That first night I spent in the solitary cell, and as of
25 the next day, the afternoon of the next day, the 21st of November, and
1 the two and a half weeks that followed I was in a room with 86 women from
3 Like all the prisoners, I had a very hard time there. I had to
4 write a statement describing all that happened in Vukovar. I wrote a
5 116-page statement. That statement is also available to this Court, and
6 it was only at one of the previous trials that I was able to see it
7 again, here in The Hague.
8 The last two days I was taken from Mitrovica to the military
9 investigation prison in Belgrade where a procedure was instituted against
10 me. However, they did not prove any charges. I had an assigned duty
11 counsel, and the only thing they charged me with was that I sent out
12 appeals and reports the world over --
13 Q. Doctor --
14 A. -- describing how the Yugoslav People's Army was an aggressor,
15 criminal army. That was the charge against me. However, I was released
16 as part of a prisoner exchange.
17 Q. Can I take you back to the beginning of that answer where you
18 told us that you were -- well, that Anto Aric was severely beaten by
19 prison guards. Are you able to tell the Judges to which institution the
20 prison guards belonged to?
21 A. Ante Aric, not Maric but Aric, beginning with an A.
22 Q. Yes. And are you able to tell the Judges to which institution
23 the prison guards belonged to?
24 A. I can't. I don't know. They were prison guards.
25 Q. And you spoke to the commander. Did you know to which
1 institution he belonged?
2 A. The Yugoslav People's Army.
3 Q. Now, you told us briefly about the conditions, that you were held
4 in a cell the first night and that you were held with 86 women from
5 Vukovar. Can you describe this second room, I suppose? Where were you
6 held exactly with 86 women from Vukovar?
7 A. It was a large room, like a large classroom or a small gym where
8 we slept on the floor, on mattresses. And there was also a smaller room
9 next door with toilet and washing facilities.
10 Q. And are you able to tell the Judges how large was this room?
11 A. Sixty-six -- well, I don't know exactly how large it was. It was
12 perhaps 20 by 30 metres.
13 Q. And can you tell the Court how much food you were provided during
14 your detention?
15 A. We received food in large cauldrons and pots, stews with peppers
16 and stuff, very tasteless, stinking food, sometimes bread and tea.
17 Q. And could you tell the Court about the hygienic conditions during
18 your detention?
19 A. Bad. I told you there was only this one bathroom with cold
20 water. It was impossible, horrible conditions.
21 Q. You also told us that you gave a lengthy statement. Can you tell
22 us who you gave this statement to?
23 A. Every day I was interrogated by an officer of the Yugoslav Army
24 who introduced himself as Captain Branko. I don't know if that was his
25 real name. At any rate, he questioned me every day.
1 Q. Just in relation to his rank, did you say Captain Branko?
2 A. Yes. That's how I understood it.
3 Q. And how was this statement prepared?
4 A. I wrote it in longhand. He put questions to me, and I answered
5 those questions. I had to sign every page, and he put a number and each
6 page. I wanted to write in that statement everything that I had written
7 earlier in my appeals, but he told me not to write it when I wanted to
8 but at the end of the statement. He said I should just focus on
9 answering the questions. I cannot remember exactly, but in fact I
10 believe -- I believe that statement is in existence somewhere.
11 Q. Yes. And could you tell us generally how you were treated by
12 Captain Branko?
13 A. Well, compared to the others, he treated me rather well. They
14 did not mistreat me mentally or physically. I was able to say everything
15 I wanted to. I was able to smoke as much as I wanted to, which was
16 important to me.
17 Q. Now, you told us that you were held in a room with other women.
18 Were there men held at the prison in Sremska Mitrovica?
19 A. Well, most of the prisoners were men. When I was brought there I
20 didn't actually know that, but I heard in one of the following days from
21 the women with whom I shared that room how they had ended up there. They
22 were from Sajmiste and from Mitnica, and they told me how their sons and
23 husbands had been brought there.
24 I cleaned the corridor with another woman, and I saw a lot of
25 bandages and bits of plaster casts, and I thought that there must be some
1 wounded people there. However, I later found out that nobody from the
2 hospital had been brought there. Instead, the wounded from other
3 shelters, from Borovo Komerc had been brought there.
4 There were among the women the sick and infirm. There were women
5 with smaller children. There was one woman with very little children.
6 Q. Now, in relation to the men, were you aware of the conditions
7 under which they were kept?
8 A. I know that. I was able to see that for myself, and I heard
9 things from others and read reports. My husband was there. They were
10 severely beaten and mistreated. I could hear by night the screams, the
11 cries, and I kept protesting with this Colonel Branko over the treatment
12 of prisoners. They were physically mistreated. They were starved.
13 There is plenty of testimony about that that you can get if you
14 want to.
15 Q. Doctor, just before we take the break, now you said
16 Colonel Branko and originally we heard Captain Branko. Which of the two
17 is it?
18 A. I don't know. I really don't know what his rank was. I think he
19 was a captain, but I don't know really. Perhaps you can find out from
20 other witness statements, because he interrogated a lot of people. I
21 can't remember. I think he was a captain, and the Colonel was the one
22 who took us into the prison, the one who was the prison commander.
23 Q. And one final question before the break. Do you know
24 approximately how -- the age of this Captain or Colonel Branko?
25 A. I can't say precisely. Around 50, perhaps, at that time.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, is this the time for the break?
2 No. We have another 15 minutes. Sorry. Okay.
3 Q. I apologise, Dr. Bosanac, for having given you false hope, but we
4 have another 15 minutes before the break.
5 Now, during your detention, were you visited by anyone?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell us --
8 A. I visited -- I was visited by European observers,
9 European Monitors, perhaps a week into my stay at that prison. Those
10 monitors who were supposed to come to the Vukovar Hospital that day
11 instead came to see me at the prison. A meeting was organised, attended
12 by representatives of the prison, myself, and they the monitors. I can't
13 remember anything particular about that meeting except that I saw five or
14 six of them in those white and blue uniforms of the ECMM. And I was
15 visited also by representatives of the ICRC. In fact, they visited
16 everyone. They took down messages addressed to families and brought some
17 lists where families indicated details necessary for the search. There
18 was also a visit from physicians from Belgrade who came from the
19 Military Medical Academy in Belgrade, high-ranking officials.
20 Q. Now, in relation to the beginning of your answer, you mentioned
21 European observers or monitors. Are you aware of what was the purpose of
22 their visit?
23 A. I believe they wanted to see for themselves who exactly was kept
24 in that prison, where I was in view of our previous correspondence. On
25 the second day of my stay in that prison, it was a Friday, the 22nd, I
1 heard on the radio -- the women in the prison had a radio, so I heard
2 that the Vatican was searching for us. I heard it on a show at 7.00,
3 Radio Vatican broadcasting in Croatian. They were searching for
4 Dr. Sinisa Glavasevic [as interpreted] from the Vukovar Hospital. They
5 were looking for priests and nuns. That was the first sign that somebody
6 does know where we are after all and that they were looking for us.
7 Q. Doctor, the record reflects that you said that: "They were
8 searching for Dr. Sinisa Glavasevic from the Vukovar Hospital"; is that
10 A. No, no. Physicians from the Vukovar Hospital and
11 Sinisa Glavasevic, who was a journalist.
12 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Now, could you tell us a
13 little bit about the circumstances of your release from
14 Sremska Mitrovica?
15 A. After a bit over two weeks of interrogation, on a Sunday the
16 prison warden or prison commander came and said that I should pack up and
17 that I was to be sent onwards. I was assigned to a bus where some other
18 prisoners were, including my husband. We were taken to the ministry --
19 military investigating prison in Belgrade where I spent another two days,
20 after which I was exchanged alongside others as part of a prisoner
21 exchange. We were exchanged for certain members of the
22 counter-intelligence service from Zagreb who will -- who were called the
23 Labrador Group as far as I remember. We were put on a plane and flew
24 from Belgrade to Zagreb.
25 Q. Now, during the period of your detention, what charges, if any,
1 were brought against you?
2 A. During my stay in Mitrovica, I wasn't charged with anything. I
3 simply had to draft a statement and answer questions about the wounded,
4 the burials. When I was in Belgrade for the two days, I was being
5 accused for -- of sending appeals and setting up health care during the
6 aggression against Vukovar as well as for having drafted appeals that I
7 sent out to the world saying that the JNA was an aggressor army. It has
8 been my argument consistently and still is, saying it was a criminal
10 A military court of sorts was put up there, and I became a bit
11 scared at the time, thinking that it would prolong my stay in detention.
12 Defence counsel was appointed ex officio, and he approached me in a very
13 calm way. He was a military person, and he said that I shouldn't be
14 worried, that I will not spend a long time in jail because I was only
15 charged --
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. -- with a verbal offence.
18 Q. Now, Doctor, I'd like you to take a look at the next document
19 which is 65 ter 5128, at tab 106. Doctor, do you see the document on the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, this document is dated the 11th of December, 1991, and at
23 the top here it indicates that Dr. Vesna Bosanac, yourself, and
24 Dr. Juraj Njavro were released on the 10th of December in a prisoner
25 exchange. Is that accurate?
1 A. That is correct, but I still can't find the part you read out.
2 Yes. Now, I see it.
3 Q. Very well. Now, in the B/C/S version can we go to page 2. We
4 can remain on page 1 in the English version.
5 At the top of the page in the B/C/S version you can see here that
6 there is a paragraph which says that there is still no further news of
7 the journalist Sinisa Glavasevic.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Earlier you mentioned to us that when the EC monitors visited you
10 they were looking for hospital doctors and Sinisa Glavasevic. Do you
11 know why Mr. Glavasevic was -- why people were looking for him?
12 A. I don't. I suppose that similar kind of appeals were sent for
13 him as was done with regard to myself, Dr. Njavro, and other hospital
14 doctors. I believe appeals were sent by our colleagues and friends. By
15 the same token, journalists were probably looking for Sinisa Glavasevic.
16 He reported daily over the radio and fax messages, sending reports to his
17 association of journalists. I suppose that is way they asked that he be
18 released as well as Branimir Polovina, who was with Sinisa Glavasevic.
19 They worked for the Croatian Rade Vukovar.
20 Q. In fact, if we turn to page 1 in the B/C/S version. Yes, here in
21 the middle of the page you can see a list of five names starting with
22 yours, Dr. Njavro, followed by Sinisa Glavasevic, Branimir Polovina who
23 you just mentioned, as well as Marin Vidic-Bili. Do you know what
24 happened to him because I believe you told us he was also taken to
25 Sremska Mitrovica with you?
1 A. Yes, Marin Vidic-Bili [Realtime transcript read in error
2 "Vidovic"] was taken to Mitrovica. He was imprisoned there the whole
3 period until he was exchanged on the 13th [Realtime transcript read in
4 error "3rd"] of August, 1992, when most were exchanged. It was a large
5 exchange following a series of negotiations. Many Vukovar citizens had
6 been exchanged earlier, say in December and then in May 1992. I took
7 part in all of those exchanges because we were constantly looking for
8 those who were missing, and I was also looking for members of my
9 father-in-law's family. I looked for many people and travelled around
10 the globe to Brussels, London, Washington in the US, as well as in
11 Zagreb. When I was there, I worked as an advisor for humanitarian issues
12 in the Ministry of Health. I took part in many a negotiation.
13 Marin Vidic was exchanged as part of the large exchange on the 13th of
14 August, 1992.
15 Q. Just one clarification, Doctor. At the beginning of the answer
16 you told us you were exchanged on the 3rd of August. Now you're saying
17 the 13th. Are you aware of the exact date?
18 A. No. No. The 13th.
19 Q. And just a clarification --
20 A. Or the 14th. There was one single exchange in August 1992.
21 Q. At the beginning of your answer, I see the name has been recorded
22 as Marin Vidovic, but you did clarify it's Marin Vidic.
23 A. Marin Vidic.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this document?
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 5128 will be Exhibit P1472.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May this be an appropriate time for the break,
3 Your Honours?
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: It is.
5 Dr. Bosanac, this is our second break. We will come back at
6 12.45. The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Demirdjian, please continue.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Doctor, I'd like to ask you a question in relation to a matter I
15 asked you earlier today, so I will take you back to before your detention
16 in Sremska Mitrovica. If you remember earlier, I asked you what was the
17 situation on the 19th and the 20th in relation to the shelling. Do you
18 remember that question?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you able to assist the Court in telling us what was the
21 situation on the 18th of November?
22 A. In the morning on the 18th, things were quiet. It was a nice
23 sunny day, much like today. We were all awaiting evacuation. However,
24 no one reported, no one came, and then shelling started. They were --
25 the shells were coming from the left bank of the Danube. The explosive
1 devices flew over the hospital and town. I don't know where they landed.
2 It wasn't like any other day. There was less shooting, but still there
3 was shelling on the 18th. On the 19th and the 20th, it was completely
4 quiet. There was no more shelling.
5 Q. Now, you said that the shelling was coming from the left bank of
6 the Danube on the 18th of November, and they flew over the hospital. Do
7 you know in which direction they were -- they were firing?
8 A. Towards Bogdanovci.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the second name. We
10 didn't catch it.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is in the south-west part of
12 town. I don't know exactly where the shells landed. I only know they
13 did not land on the hospital.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
15 Q. After Bogdanovci you mentioned another village which wasn't
16 captured by the interpreters. Can you repeat that?
17 A. Marinci is the closest village to Bogdanovci, towards Nustar.
18 Q. And do you know why the shelling began again on the 18th of
20 A. I really don't know. Later on it was my impression that the
21 shelling was done so that evacuation would not occur that day, as an
22 excuse, because the ECMM observers who called me on the phone told me
23 that they couldn't pass through as the JNA could not guarantee their
24 safety since there was still combat. I really don't know why.
25 Q. Very well. I'd like to take you to the period after or following
1 your release from the prison in Sremska Mitrovica. Could you tell the
2 Court once you were flown from Belgrade to Croatia what did you do. Did
3 you take up any functions?
4 A. I began working in the Ministry of Health as an advisor for
5 humanitarian issues. I remained director of the medical centre of
6 Vukovar in exile.
7 Q. And as part of your role as an advisor on humanitarian issues,
8 what were you doing?
9 A. My most important job was to look for those who were detained and
10 missing and the wounded from the Vukovar Hospital. Then I was trying to
11 assist all displaced persons, and I assisted in the setting up of the
12 work of medical staff in exile as well as other tasks.
13 Q. As part of your work to look for those who were detained and
14 missing and wounded from the Vukovar Hospital, how were you able to work
15 on this part of your function?
16 A. I worked a lot in the process of taking statements and testimony
17 of those who had been detained and who had gone through the evacuation
18 process from Vukovar. I also continued drafting appeals on the topic of
19 what was happening with the wounded and their fate. I was often on the
20 road visiting Lord Carrington, Cyrus Vance, Amnesty International in
21 London. I went to Brussels and Paris to see Kouchner. I participated in
22 the negotiations conducted by the ICRC with the Serbian Red Cross or of
23 the then former Yugoslavia. It had to do with identifying those who were
24 detained in Serbia.
25 I attended all exchanges. I talked to many people, many
1 detainees who were released. I wrote about it. I drafted reports. I
2 held meetings with different organisations which were looking for the
3 missing and detained.
4 Q. Very well. Now, you mentioned a moment ago that you participated
5 in negotiations conducted by the ICRC. In which -- in what kind of a
6 forum was this -- were these negotiations being held?
7 A. Negotiating commissions were set up in Geneva and in Budapest and
8 in Hungary. I read their reports, and for a while in the summer of 1992
9 I was also a member of one such commission.
10 Q. Are you aware of when these negotiations were initiated?
11 A. These negotiations were initiated as early as December 1991.
12 Based on the work of those commissions and negotiations, detainees were
13 being released from many prisons already in 1991 and then in 1992.
14 Q. Very well. May I show you one of the minutes of such meetings.
15 It is 65 ter 6402, at tab 115.
16 Doctor, do you see these minutes on your screen?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. They indicate that these were held on the 2nd of April, 1992, in
19 Pec. Can you tell us where Pec is located?
20 A. Pec is a town in Hungary close to the Croatian border.
21 Q. Very well. Now, first of all we see representatives of various
22 parties. The first participants we see here are under the header
23 Federal Executive Council. Can you tell us of which state or country
24 that is?
25 A. I suppose they were from the former Yugoslavia, as far as I can
1 see from the names, although I don't know them personally. I know the
2 members of the Croatian delegation.
3 Q. Okay. And could you tell us very briefly who are the members of
4 the Croatian delegation?
5 A. Dr. Ivan Simonovic, he was a member of the commission on behalf
6 of Croatia. He is a lawyer by profession. Nenad Javornik was the
7 secretary of the Croatian Red Cross. Ms. Dubravka Horvat was also from
8 the Croatian Red Cross. Ivica Kopjar was the secretary of the Croatian
9 Red Cross in Osijek. Dr. Davor Strinovic is a pathologist from the
10 school of medicine of Zagreb university. He is an identification expert.
11 Q. Now, towards the bottom of the page we see representatives of the
12 Yugoslav People's Army. Are you familiar with the names here?
13 A. The names are familiar, although I don't know any of them
14 personally. I only met those people at meetings that I attended on two
15 occasions as part of the commission.
16 Q. Okay. And at the bottom of the page we see the representatives
17 of the ICRC. I think in the B/C/S version you only see one name the
18 other two names are on the next page. Are these names that you are
19 familiar with?
20 A. Yes. I know personally this Paul Bonard who regularly took part
21 in these meetings, and he was later involved in that large exchange of
22 prisoners in August 1992.
23 Q. Thank you. I'd like to take you to page 5 in both the English
24 and the B/C/S version. In the B/C/S version we need to scroll down to
25 the bottom part of the page. All the way down, please. Thank you very
2 Doctor, do you see item number VI, "Information on the wounded of
3 Vukovar Hospital"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, here it is recorded that Dr. Simonovic commented that
6 Croatia's side was unsatisfied with data received on wounded in
7 Vukovar Hospital, and he indicates here that according to incomplete
8 lists, it is considered that there were 390 wounded at the
9 Vukovar Hospital.
10 What can you tell us about this number and about what
11 Dr. Simonovic is saying here?
12 A. I told you when we discussed this -- Dr. Hebrang and I when we
13 talked on the phone discussing how many ambulances and vehicles needed to
14 be prepared for the evacuation of the hospital, I told you that there
15 were around 450 patients and wounded in the Vukovar Hospital, including
16 360 wounded and 46 very seriously injured who were immobile and lying in
17 the intensive care unit, and the total of people in Vukovar Hospital was
18 700 or so. It's probably based on that information that Dr. Simonovic
19 was seeking lists of all those patients and wounded awaiting evacuation.
20 Q. Now, if we go to the next page in the B/C/S version. We can stay
21 on the same page in the English version. In the top part of the page you
22 see that there is a -- in the B/C/S version you can go to the top. Yeah.
23 There is a record here saying that:
24 "According to Dr. Simonovic, complete lists were handed over by
25 Dr. Bosanac to Major Sljivancanin, in the presence of witnesses as well
1 as a notebook and a computer with complete information."
2 Can you give the Trial Chamber your comments in relation to this
4 A. I think this record is not quite accurate, because I did not hand
5 over the computer or the medical records. I handed over to Mr. Borsinger
6 in the presence of Mr. Sljivancanin all the lists of patients and
7 wounded, whereas the computer and the medical records were all in my
8 office awaiting evacuation. In the meantime when I was taken away, I
9 came back. I learned that all this documentation was taken to Belgrade,
10 because I saw in a Serbian weekly called Ilustrovana Politika an
11 interview with a Dr. Stankovic from Belgrade, a pathologist who conducted
12 identifications in Vukovar, and in that newspaper story and the
13 photographs in it I saw that they had in their possession our computer
14 which had remained at the hospital after they took me away.
15 Q. Now -- yes. I'd like to take you to the bottom of that page in
16 the B/C/S version, and in the English version we need to go to the next
17 page, please.
18 Do you see at the bottom of the page that there's a section where
19 Colonel Starcevic -- well, his words are reported? Do you see that
20 portion there at the bottom?
21 A. I see what's written at the bottom, that the Vukovar Hospital be
22 given neutrality; however, this agreement was not accepted by the JNA
23 because the ICRC required exclusive access to the hospital. The JNA came
24 into the hospital and found 100 armed men who did not have a single --
25 and I can't see what else is written because it's the end of the page,
1 but what is written here that there were 100 armed men in the hospital is
2 not true.
3 Q. Very well. Just -- yes. You can see the rest of that paragraph
4 there on the top of at that page. And it continues in saying that --
5 A. And there was no reason for them to be in the hospital, the
6 example being Karlo Crk, director of the Vupik factory from Vukovar whose
7 name was on the list of medical staff.
8 First of all, it's not true that there were 100 armed people.
9 Second, this Karlo Crk was in the hospital as a civilian. He had been
10 working in the police preparing food, because before the war he worked at
11 the slaughterhouse in Vupik as head of the slaughter-house, and he was
12 preparing food and meat both for the police and the army, the
13 Croatian Army, and the hospital. He was a civilian. He was not armed.
14 Q. Now, two paragraphs below that there's a sentence which reads as
16 "Colonel Starcevic asserted that Major Sljivancanin never got
17 the said lists."
18 What can you tell us about that? You told us earlier that you
19 handed over the lists to Mr. Borsinger?
20 A. Yes, I did hand it over to Mr. Borsinger in the presence of
21 Sljivancanin, the lists of patients and wounded, whereas the list of the
22 medical staff was prepared by the administrator of that council, and the
23 next morning I was taken away. So I don't know whether they had the list
24 of staff or not.
25 Q. Very well. At the -- can we go to the next page in the B/C/S
1 version. We can stay on the same page in the English version. And we
2 can scroll down towards the bottom of that page. I'm sorry, this is not
3 what I'm looking for in the B/C/S version. I'm looking for page 7 in the
4 B/C/S version. Oh, we were already on that page. My apologies. Yes.
5 And in the English version, can you scroll down to the bottom of that
6 page. Yes. Thank you very much.
7 Now, you see that here there are -- there's a section of this
8 record which includes proposals made by Dr. Simonovic, and under number 2
9 he proposes that the agreement on the neutralisation of the hospital --
10 so he states that it was indeed signed by General Raseta and Hebrang, and
11 he proposes to call for a hearing Major Sljivancanin, Dr. Bosanac, and
12 Colonel Vojnovic.
13 Now, first of all we have heard about Major Sljivancanin and we
14 have heard about Dr. Bosanac. Are you aware of who Colonel Vojnovic was?
15 A. I don't know the man personally, but I believe that this
16 Colonel Vojnovic was supposed to take over the hospital on behalf of the
17 Military Medical Academy. When that meeting was organised on the 20th, I
18 believe I heard from Dr. Njavro that the man's name was Colonel Vojnovic.
19 Q. Now, was there ever a hearing which included both
20 Major Sljivancanin and yourself?
21 A. No.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this document,
23 please, it's 65 ter 6402?
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 6402 will be Exhibit P1473.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
3 Q. Now, Doctor, you did mention to us earlier that you took part in
4 some of these meetings. When was the first time that you took part in a
5 meeting of this commission?
6 A. I first participated in one in the summer. I believe it was the
7 6th of June, 1992, because I saw these reports, and I saw that the last
8 item concerned the wounded from Vukovar who could not be identified.
9 Nobody could tell what became of them. It was a time when I was heavily
10 involved in attempts to find out what had happened to the wounded. I
11 looked everywhere, and I insisted with Professor Hebrang and Mr. Kostic,
12 who was a member of the delegation to Geneva, that they include me in
13 these negotiations. So on these two occasions I participated. I
14 suggested that experts be brought before that commission, this
15 Dr. Stankovic who performed identifications, as well as Dr. Strinovic, so
16 that they provide a report on the identification of the dead. I also
17 proposed that the commission hear as witnesses people who had been on
18 those buses from the hospital, Emil Cakalic and Stjepan Guncevic, that
19 they should also attend a session of that commission in Hungary.
20 Q. And, Doctor, it is correct that records or minutes of these
21 meetings are also available?
22 A. I believe they are.
23 Q. Now, throughout this time after your release and in early 1992,
24 what information was available in relation to the fate of the patients
25 and the staff from the Vukovar Hospital?
1 A. In view of the fact that the ICRC and services involved in
2 searches were not providing any answers about any of the persons who had
3 been taken away from the Vukovar Hospital and were still missing, and I
4 know this from personal experience because we were looking for my
5 father-in-law, I had a very strong suspicion that they were no longer
6 alive. And those witnesses who had been released as part of an exchange,
7 Emil Cakalic and Stjepan Guncevic, told me that they had seen my
8 father-in-law in that hangar at Ovcara along with some other people I
9 knew, but they were not on any ICRC lists or any other lists of other
10 services involved in the search for missing persons, and we never got any
11 confirmation from them.
12 Q. Now, when did Emil Cakalic and Stjepan Guncevic provide this
13 information to you, at what point in time?
14 A. After they were released from prison. I see it's written
15 Stjepan Guncevic here. After spending time in that hangar in Ovcara,
16 they were taken back to Velepromet or perhaps Moditeks or one of those
17 collection centres, and after that they spent time in prisons in Serbia
18 and they were released. After they were released, I discussed it with
20 Q. I'm not sure if I see the date or the month. Are you able to
21 help us with when approximately this was that they were released from
23 A. I believe it was in May 1992, but I believe there is precise
2 Q. Now, were you able to have access to the Vukovar area after your
3 release from prison?
4 A. No. I went back to Vukovar for the first time in 1996.
5 Q. And what information, if any, did you have during 1992 in
6 relation to what was occurring in Vukovar itself after your release from
7 Sremska Mitrovica?
8 A. Yes. As I said, we had information from people who were coming
9 out of Vukovar either via Hungary or had been released as part of
10 exchanges with prisoners.
11 Q. And with regards to early 1992, did you receive any information
12 as to what was happening in Vukovar town itself?
13 A. I found out that a Serbian government was established in Vukovar,
14 that everybody who stayed behind was subjected to torture, many Croats
15 were driven out, and I remember in particular one journalist who was in a
16 sort of work camp where they were made to bury the dead. Also, the
17 husband of a nurse came. He was part of a group that was burying the
18 dead, and he brought some lists.
19 We received some information from people who belatedly came out
20 of Vukovar. An elderly woman who was the mother-in-law of one of our
21 nurses came to see me and said that she also had her husband taken away,
22 that he was killed, her child was taken to Serbia. We had all sorts of
23 information about the torture people were subjected to in that period in
25 Q. And, Doctor, you explained to us a little earlier that you
1 continued sending appeals following your release. Can you look at the
2 next document which is 65 ter 5902 at tab 108, please.
3 No, I'm sorry. This is the I don't think document. Could you
4 please take it down. Just give me a moment, please.
5 [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: My mistake, Your Honours. This is actually
7 65 ter 1037, at tab 52.
8 Q. Doctor, do you recognise this document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It's dated the 22nd of April, so clearly after your release. Can
11 you tell us the circumstances surrounding the sending of this appeal?
12 A. Yes. That's something I sent after those two women had come to
13 see me, saying how that nurse and that man, her husband, were killed.
14 They wanted me to do something if I could to try to protect the people
15 who had stayed there, and that's how I came to sign this appeal.
16 Q. Who did you send it to?
17 A. There was an office in Zagreb at that time, a UN field office,
18 dealing with humanitarian issues, covering UNHCR and UNCRO. We sent it
19 to them.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this document.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 1037 will be Exhibit P1474.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this concludes my
25 examination-in-chief at this time. As announced earlier, depending on
1 developments this afternoon, we may decide to re-open our
2 examination-in-chief tomorrow in relation to the DVD that Dr. Bosanac
3 provided us over the weekend.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Gosnell.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Bosanac.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Mr. Hadzic here, and
11 I'm going to ask you a few questions. I'm afraid we're going to run over
12 into tomorrow. If any of my questions are not clear or you wish to have
13 further clarification, feel free to ask me and I'll do my best. Did you
14 understand that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, I'd like to start at the outset by asking you some questions
17 about the evacuation of patients and civilians from the hospital on the
18 19th and the 20th of November, and to start with that, I'd like you to
19 take a look again at the evacuation agreement.
20 Could we have P1461, please, which is Prosecution tab 35.
21 Now, ma'am, you've already testified about this document that's
22 coming up in front of you. Do you remember when you first saw this
23 document as such?
24 A. I saw it as such for the first time after I was released from
25 prison. I did not see it back in Vukovar.
1 Q. And is my understanding correct that it was Dr. Hebrang who was
2 giving you information about the content of this agreement?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, I'd just like to focus your attention on a few matters that
5 were not addressed by the Prosecution, and if we look at paragraph 1, it
6 indicates the various parties to the agreement. Did Dr. Hebrang, as you
7 can recall, specifically inform you that it was the JNA that was a party
8 to this agreement?
9 A. Yes. He told me that General Raseta was representing the
10 Yugoslav People's Army.
11 Q. It says there at paragraph 2:
12 "The Republic of Croatia and the YPA undertook to guarantee a
13 cease-fire in the area of Vukovar Hospital and along the agreed
14 evacuation route."
15 Now, let me just pause there. Did Dr. Hebrang inform you that
16 the cease-fire was supposed to cover not only the hospital but also the
17 entirety of the evacuation route?
18 A. He did not tell me that in precisely those terms, but he said
19 that agreement had been signed and the shooting would stop, the attacks
20 would stop, and that the evacuation would begin under the auspices of the
21 ICRC and the European Monitoring Mission.
22 Q. Well, did he inform you in general terms that the parties were
23 responsible for ensuring the security of the evacuation convoys?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And paragraph 2 goes on:
1 "This guarantee would cover both regular forces and irregular
2 units in the areas in which they would respectively have responsibility
3 for the evacuation operation."
4 Now, thinking back to the time, and I know that it's a long time
5 ago, but do you remember whether Dr. Hebrang informed you that this
6 agreement covered not only the JNA as such, but it also covered all what
7 are described here as irregular units that might be associated with the
9 A. He did not explain to me so precisely every article of this
10 agreement. He only said that the hospital would be neutralised, and he
11 asked me how many medical and other vehicles needed to be prepared for
12 the evacuation and that everything would be organised by the ICRC and the
14 Q. And looking down at paragraph 4 of this agreement, it says:
15 "The YPA will provide suitable military vehicles for the movement
16 from Vukovar to Zidine."
17 Was it your understanding that the patients would be physically
18 transported in JNA vehicles?
19 A. Yes. That was my understanding. As for the route, Vukovar
20 Prilevci, Bogdanovci and Luzac pertained to in item 3 as the one to be
21 taken and I also understood that they were to be transferred by vehicles
22 to Nustar where they were supposed to be moved to the ambulances and
23 buses provided by the Ministry of Health of the Republic of Croatia.
24 Q. Thank you, Dr. Bosanac.
25 MR. GOSNELL: I'm finished with that document; it can be removed
1 from the screen.
2 Q. Now, Dr. Bosanac, as I understand from your testimony earlier
3 today, you ventured out of the hospital on the morning of the 19th of
4 November, and you talked toward a railroad bridge. Do you remember that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then when you arrived at the railroad bridge you saw what you
8 described as reservists as well as different members of paramilitary
9 forces. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did these paramilitary forces include individuals wearing
12 long beards?
13 A. There was a military truck full of different soldiers. Some had
14 military uniform, olive-drab uniforms. There were people in civilian
15 clothes. They differed. I didn't recognise anyone. When those people
16 saw us approaching, since I wasn't going alone,
17 Marin Bilic [as interpreted] was with me and Senka Vuko who was a medical
18 radiologist and acting as interpreter on that occasion since we expected
19 to encounter ICRC representatives there, when they saw us, given the fact
20 that she and I were in our white medical coats, they called one of their
21 superiors, telling them that we appeared there.
22 One of them who was in an olive-drab uniform and a helmet
23 resembling --
24 Q. Can I just ask you to pause there so I can take this in pieces
25 because you're giving a lot of information, and I'd like to focus if I
1 can on a few specific points.
2 Are you all right, Dr. Bosanac?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you okay to continue?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that these various -- these different soldiers were in a
7 truck. Were they in a truck together, all these different soldiers in a
8 truck together?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And -- and was that a JNA truck?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said that they called one of their superiors. Could you
13 describe the superior?
14 A. Yes. He was an olive-drab uniform and he wore a helmet like one
15 of those we saw in the footage. I saw several such trucks on the road
16 called Priljevo that could be seen from the railroad bridge. I saw quite
17 a few people getting onto those trucks as ordered by those soldiers. The
18 superior officer or soldier asked who we were. I said we came from the
19 hospital and that we were looking for the ICRC. He said that there was
20 no ICRC there. I asked him if he could use a phone to call someone who
21 could provide us with information as to the whereabouts of the ICRC; he
22 said he couldn't.
23 Q. Doctor, could you ask you to pause there. This superior, was he
24 wearing a JNA uniform?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And do you remember his rank?
2 A. No.
3 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D252, please, which is Defence
4 tab 29, and if we could have page 28 of this document. This is an
5 interlinear transcription, or it's a transcription which contains both
6 the B/C/S and the English on the same pages.
7 Q. Now, Dr. Bosanac, this is a portion of a statement that you
8 behave in 1993 to a Canadian investigator who, as I understand it, was
9 acting on behalf of the ECMM. Do you remember having given a statement
10 like that in 1993 to a Canadian investigator?
11 Let me correct myself. Let me --
12 A. I probably did. I can't recall. I don't remember. I do
13 remember providing certain statements at the school of medicine in their
14 department of information, but I don't know what the purpose of it was.
15 Q. Well, here's what's recorded in this interview, this transcript
16 of your interview which was taken about two years after the events, and
17 you're describing this particular encounter and you say:
18 "A captain appeared. They addressed him as captain."
19 Does that refresh your memory that it was a JNA captain who was
20 the superior?
21 A. Perhaps, but I really don't remember. Probably. When I gave
22 this statement in 1993, perhaps my recollection was better. I do
23 remember, though, that it was a soldier or an officer belonging to the
24 JNA who told us then that there was no ICRC there and that we should
25 return to the hospital. He said he couldn't reach them because his job
1 was evacuation only up to the bridge, and beyond the bridge, which was
2 the area where the hospital was, was not within his responsibility
3 according to his words. That's what I recall.
4 Q. Did you understand that this captain was acting as the superior
5 for all of these soldiers who you saw in the truck?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you see any bearded soldiers - and when I say "bearded," I
8 mean paramilitary soldiers with long beards - did you see any such
9 individuals sitting on JNA APCs?
10 A. You mean at that moment when I was at the bridge or otherwise?
11 Q. On that occasion.
12 A. I can't say that I saw bearded men on that occasion, but I could
13 see that they were all unkempt and unshaved, but I did see these true
14 paramilitaries with beards and knives. They were also in JNA vehicles.
15 One such person actually went along with us en route to Negoslavci.
16 Q. When you were -- when you were taken to Negoslavci by the JNA
17 officer; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You're saying that one of these long-bearded paramilitary
20 soldiers accompanied you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, after this incident at the railway bridge, as I understand
23 it you returned to the hospital and you waited there; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then at around 12.00 or 12.30, a military vehicle arrived
1 carrying JNA soldiers; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you spoke to someone who presented himself as the commander
4 of these JNA soldiers; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And on that occasion you asked him to post someone at the
7 entrance to the hospital?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did he tell you that he was going to post a military
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see the military policeman?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How was he dressed?
15 A. In an olive-drab uniform, but they had white leather belts.
16 Q. And amongst that -- amongst the soldiers who arrived on that
17 occasion, which you've said is around 12.00 or 12.30 in front of the
18 hospital, how many of them were dressed as such with white belts?
19 A. I don't remember exactly, say four or five.
20 Q. And can you tell us how many soldiers in total there were who
21 arrived there at that occasion?
22 A. Around 15, although I don't remember exactly. I do know that
23 immediately after the jeep with the commander arrived, I talked to him
24 and then returned to the hospital to tell my colleagues, the doctors,
25 that I was to go to Negoslavci and then I left. I don't know how many
1 arrived and how many there were.
2 Q. And then you went and had this conversation with Colonel Mrksic
3 in Negoslavci. I won't ask you to go over that entire episode in detail,
4 but I do have one or two points of clarification to ask you.
5 Was it your impression when you arrived and started speaking to
6 Colonel Mrksic about the need to evacuate patients from the hospital that
7 this was the first he had heard of it, or was it your impression that
8 Colonel Mrksic was already informed that an agreement had been reached
9 for the evacuation of patients?
10 A. I think he had been informed. I think he had been, because he
11 told me that if we insisted on the route Bogdanovci-Marinci-Nustar he had
12 to de-mine the area of Zidine. At that moment I didn't know what Zidine
13 was. He said it was their military training ground and that he would
14 have to de-mine a part of it. That's how I knew he must have been aware
15 of the agreement.
16 Q. And was it your impression that Colonel Mrksic considered himself
17 responsible for carrying out the evacuation of the hospital?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And is that in fact consistent with everything that you had heard
20 from General Raseta about how the evacuation was to be carried out, that
21 it was to be carried out under the supervision and control of
22 Colonel Mrksic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, as I understand it, you then returned to the hospital, and
25 am I right that you arrived at the hospital around 3.00 p.m.?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were the military policemen still guarding the entrance to the
3 hospital when you arrived?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many did you see performing that function, guarding the
6 entrance to the hospital?
7 A. Four.
8 Q. Were they armed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were they allowing anyone to enter the hospital?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who?
13 A. All those who so wished, such as Bogdan Kuzmic and many others
14 who walked throughout the hospital. I recall an incident in the evening.
15 It was on the 19th in the evening. Marko Mandic came to tell me that
16 there was some ruckus at the entrance. I came out, and I could see some
17 men in military uniform trying to enter the hospital, but the military
18 policemen wouldn't let them through. There was a lot of noise. As it
19 turned out, some members of the so-called White Eagles wanted to enter,
20 including the son of a doctor of ours.
21 When I came outside, the doctor came out of the out-patient
22 clinic, and he told me -- he told them that they could let his son
23 through, and he told me to go back to my office and that he was to take
24 care of hospital safety.
25 I recall that incident, recalling that they didn't let in just
1 anyone. It was on the 19th in the evening before I was taken to
2 Negoslavci for the second time.
3 Q. And what time, if you can recall, was it that you saw
4 Major Sljivancanin in the hospital for the first time?
5 A. I saw him for the first time in the afternoon, around 4.00 or
6 5.00 p.m., by which time I had returned from Negoslavci.
7 Q. And you testified earlier today that he said that from that
8 moment on, I quote:
9 "He was in charge of the hospital and he had to evacuate
10 civilians first."
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did he tell you on that occasion that he was evacuating civilians
13 to Velepromet?
14 A. No. He just said that he had to evacuate civilians. I heard
15 that it was actually taking place from Zeljka Zgonjanin who was on the
16 first floor making a list of civilians. She told me that they were
17 taking out men and taking them away while they left the women behind. In
18 other words, they were separating men from women, and I came out into the
19 yard to see what was going on. It was then that I encountered
20 Major Sljivancanin.
21 Q. Could we have page 46 of the document that's on the screen,
22 please. And again, Dr. Bosanac, this is your interview in 1993, and I
23 want to see if this will refresh your -- your memory about whether Mr. --
24 Major Sljivancanin told you that he was taking these civilians to
1 And if we could scroll down the page. And I'm just going to read
2 the English, but of course you can follow along in the B/C/S.
3 "Zeljka came to me in the office to come because there was panic
4 there. I went there and saw that they were going down out of the main
5 entrance to the new hospital. The army was taking them in trucks which
6 were lined up along the side of Gunduliceva Street."
7 Now, let's just stop there. Is it true that the civilians were
8 being loaded beyond trucks?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were those JNA military trucks?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then you go on:
13 "They first took away the men, and that was why there was a
14 commotion, because the women were crying and shouting, and that is when I
15 first saw Sljivancanin. 'What are you doing? Why are you taking these
16 people?' He said they were going to Velepromet, and he was constantly
17 telling these people, 'You will be able to go wherever you want. The
18 Yugoslav federal army has liberated you. These men are only going to
19 have their names taken. You will meet again at Velepromet.'"
20 Now, having read that, Dr. Bosanac, does that refresh your memory
21 that Major Sljivancanin expressly told you that he was taking those
22 people to Velepromet?
23 A. Probably. I know I heard for the first time of Velepromet when I
24 met my mother en route back from Negoslavci. She told me that my in-laws
25 were taken to Velepromet. So probably it was the case, although I don't
1 recall it precisely. He did say that they were being taken there to be
2 registered, but it was a farce, because many of them were killed at
3 Velepromet too. The fact is that the ICRC was not in charge of
4 evacuation, neither the evacuation of the hospital or of civilians. The
5 ECMM was not in charge either. It was all done -- it was all arranged by
6 Major Sljivancanin, the JNA, and the paramilitary troops that were
7 alongside them.
8 Q. And let me pick up on that last item, the paramilitary troops.
9 Do you remember on this occasion when you saw civilians being taken out
10 of the hospital on the afternoon of the 19th of November? Did you --
11 under the supervision of Major Sljivancanin, did you see paramilitary
12 troops participating in that?
13 A. As the civilians were being taken away and put on the trucks?
14 No. They were reservists like Bogdan Kuzmic and others.
15 Q. Could we have --
16 A. Now, whether they were paramilitary or something else, I don't
18 Q. Could we have 0247 -- excuse me. Let me repeat that number.
19 65 ter 02742, which is Defence tab 11. And this would be paragraph 82 in
20 both the English and the B/C/S.
21 Now, we're looking for paragraph 82 in the B/C/S.
22 Now, Dr. Bosanac, this is what you said in your statement that
23 was prepared for your testimony in the Seselj case, and you signed this,
24 and this -- in this paragraph, what you say is:
25 "She," and you're referring to Zeljka Zgonjanin, "she told me she
1 did not know what to do because there was --"
2 A. Just one moment. Can you check whether it is on the screen,
3 because I don't see that.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Can we adjust the position of the B/C/S? It's
5 slightly cut off. It's a question of the margins being cut off. I can't
6 see the left side of the document, and I'm sure that Dr. Bosanac can't
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which item is that? Which
10 MR. GOSNELL: If we could just very slightly move the left
11 document a little bit towards the left. Yes. That would be perfect.
12 We're getting there. Yes, that's it.
13 Q. Dr. Bosanac, it should be the very top paragraph on the screen in
14 front of you. And what you say there is --
15 A. Number 82, is that what you're talking about?
16 Q. Yes, the very top paragraph on the screen.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "She told me she did not know what to do because there was panic
19 upstairs since JNA soldiers were separating the men from their families.
20 Vidic went up with her to see what was happening, and I got out and saw
21 the JNA which was in charge of the operation. Apart from them, I saw the
22 Territorial Defence members amongst them, also the Chetniks who were
23 nervously walking around looking to recognise Croatian soldiers, and I
24 cannot assume what their intentions were."
25 Dr. Bosanac, does that refresh your memory that not only did you
1 see JNA soldiers separating men and removing them from the hospital, but
2 that also there were, as you described them, TO members and, as you say
3 here, Chetniks?
4 A. Yes. Although I can't read everything because it's too small. I
5 can't make out everything that's in the document.
6 Q. Well, can you read the portion I've read, and do you agree that
7 that's what's there?
8 A. I can read the following:
9 "Vidic went upstairs to see what was happening, and I got up and
10 saw the JNA which was in charge of the operation. Apart from them, I saw
11 Territorial Defence members among them, also Chetniks who were nervously
12 walking around looking to recognise Croatian soldiers, and I cannot
13 assume what their intentions were."
14 I can read that. I can't recall exactly when I provided this
15 statement. I suppose I --
16 Q. Dr. Bosanac, what's actually most important, and I'm sorry to
17 interrupt you, what's most important is as you sit there now, can you
18 remember on that day, on the 19th of November, can you remember that you
19 saw not only JNA soldiers separating civilians from their families, you
20 also saw what you describe here as Chetniks and TO members?
21 A. I repeat that I saw members of the TO and of paramilitary forces.
22 One such man drove a road in the same car with us. I can't recall
23 whether I saw them by the truck when people were being --
24 Q. Dr. Bosanac, I'm terribly sorry to interrupt again, but I'm just
25 talking now about in the hospital on the afternoon of the 19th when the
1 civilians are being removed. Did you see Chetniks doing that?
2 A. No. I didn't see them being taken away by Chetniks. I did see
3 them being directed to the trucks by the soldiers, and I also saw TO
4 members. They were not young soldiers, conscripts, but reservists such
5 as Bogdan Kuzmic.
6 Q. And this entire operation was being directed by
7 Major Sljivancanin?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this wasn't a question of Major Sljivancanin just allowing
10 this to happen. This was something that was being actively ordered and
11 directed by Major Sljivancanin; is that right?
12 A. I wasn't present there non-stop. I said what he told me when I
13 asked about it. Major Sljivancanin was very arrogant at the time. He
14 told me that it was none of my business, that he was in charge, and that
15 he was going to implement it.
16 Q. And by saying that he was in charge, wouldn't you infer that that
17 meant that he was responsible for removing those civilians?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat, please.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is how I understood it.
20 MR. GOSNELL:
21 Q. And he was very resentful of what he perceived to be your
22 invention in the matter, wasn't he?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. GOSNELL: I see the clock, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
1 Dr. Bosanac, this is the end of today's hearing. We will
2 continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. I remind you that you're still under
3 oath, which means that you cannot discuss your testimony with anybody,
4 nor can you talk to any of the parties. Thank you very much.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day
9 of April, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.