1 Thursday, 11 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. May we have the appearances, please,
11 starting with the Prosecution.
12 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
13 the Prosecution Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, Thomas Laugel, and
14 Kai Leung.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
17 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The witness may be brought in.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 WITNESS: VISNJA BILIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Madam Bilic. I would remind you
23 that you are still under oath.
24 Mr. Gillett.
25 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
1 Examination by Mr. Gillett: [Continued]
2 Q. Now, yesterday when we left off we were discussing the
3 United Nations report which is 65 ter 5499, and you have already
4 explained that the bodies mentioned at paragraph 348, at Velepromet, are
5 the same ones that you discussed earlier that were moved to the new
6 cemetery in Vukovar. So that answers my final question on that document.
7 MR. GILLET: And at this stage we'd tender that 65 ter document
8 5499, which is the United Nations report.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 5499 shall be assigned
11 Exhibit P1513, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, my final question, Ms. Bilic, in your expert report at
14 section 15, you describe mass graves as places where three or more
15 victims are illegally buried without markings or measures or respect for
16 the remains. In the report you then also go on to talk about people
17 exhumed from individual graves, and I'm wondering, what were these
18 individual graves like typically?
19 A. When it comes to individual graves, we're talking about places
20 from which the mortal remains of one or two persons were exhumed. In a
21 majority of those cases, those places were not marked as places of
22 burial. Also, there was no documentation about the persons whose mortal
23 remains were buried in those individual graves.
24 Q. Thank you, Ms. Bilic.
25 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, those -- that completes my questions
1 on direct examination.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Zivanovic for cross.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, are Ms. Bilic. My name is
7 Zoran Zivanovic, and I represent Goran Hadzic in these proceedings. I
8 have a few questions about your report, which is P1490. We'll start with
9 chapter 1.
10 In that report you say that in 1991 a commission was set up for
11 dealing with people who were taken prisoner of war during the conflict.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that -- that commission in 1993 merged with the other
14 commission and formed a new commission for detainees and missing persons.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the way I understand from your CV, it seems that in 1993, you
17 joined the work of that commission which subsequently changed names and
18 finally was given the name that it nowadays bears.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Can you now tell me, please, according to the definition of the
21 commission that I mentioned first, who did that commission consider a
22 prisoner of war?
23 A. Detainees or prisoners of wars were those persons who were
24 detained during the homeland war, i.e., those persons who were in
25 prisons, camps, and detention facilities.
1 Q. When you say in prisons, camps, and other such places, do you
2 also imply, do you also comprise such prisons and detention camps in
4 A. The aforementioned commission primarily dealt with the exchanges
5 of prisoners, which means that within the purview of that commission,
6 there were also exchanges of those persons who were detained at holding
7 centres in the Republic of Croatia as well as those who were kept in
8 prisons and detention camps in the previously occupied territories of the
9 Republic of Croatia in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and in Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina.
11 Q. Does that mean that the commission was also an institution that
12 had authority in the non-occupied part of the Republic of Croatia where
13 detainees had been kept by the Croatian armed forces during the conflict?
14 A. As I've already told you, the main task of that commission was to
15 organise exchanges of prisoners on both sides. At this moment I don't
16 have in front of me the decree on the setting up and the purview of the
17 commission, so I'm not sure whether the commission was authorised to
18 control the treatment of prisoners of war in the prisons and holding
19 centres in the Republic of Croatia. However, I know for a fact that the
20 commission did not keep records of those persons who were under the
21 authority of the Republic of Croatia in respect of the armed conflicts.
22 Q. Did the commission carry out searches of persons who were
23 considered prisoners of war and of whom it was thought that they were
24 kept in such prisons?
25 A. That was the purview of -- of the commission for searching
1 missing persons. The other commissions that -- the second commission
2 that you mentioned at the beginning. In 1993 those two commissions were
3 merged, and they continued functioning as one body which became a
4 commission of the government of Croatia for missing persons and now --
5 and nowadays this is the administration for missing and detainees.
6 Q. Let me ask you, you personally, were you involved in the problem
7 of searching for persons who went missing and who may have been detained
8 in the territory of the Republic of Croatia?
9 A. From 1993 when I started dealing with these tasks, I was involved
10 in all of the tasks that had to do with the searches for missing persons,
11 including such persons for which there was some indicia that they may
12 have gone missing in the territory of the Republic of Croatia
13 irrespective of where that may have happened.
14 Q. That means even those that may have been captured by the Croatian
15 armed forces?
16 A. Yes, that would have included them as well.
17 Q. Could you please tell me within the framework of your tasks and
18 duties, did you communicate, did you visit prisons and other such places
19 where such persons were detained?
20 A. I never visited prisons or any other places where prisoners of
21 war were accommodated or detained. Prisons and similar places and
22 supervision thereof was carried out by the International Commission of
23 the Red Cross in the Republic of Croatia which had such a mandate. They
24 identified the situation, and they reported to the Administration for
25 Detainees and Missing Persons.
1 Q. If I understood you, the Administration for Detainees and Missing
2 Persons communicated with the prisons in Croatia, or as you call it, the
3 non-occupied part of Croatia, only through that international
4 organisation and not directly.
5 A. The Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons did not
6 communicate with prisons and holding centres individually. It
7 communicated with the authorised administration in the
8 Ministry of Justice which had authority over prisons; i.e., with the
9 Ministry of Defence which had authority over holding centres for
10 prisoners of war. The Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons
11 did not have any contacts nor did it have the need to communicate with
12 prisons and holding centres. As I've already told you, it was the
13 committee of the Red Cross that supervised the treatment of prisoners of
14 war in such facilities.
15 Q. In chapter 2, you spoke about the authorities and competencies of
16 the administration. You mentioned all of those territorial authorities,
17 and I noticed that one of them were exhumations and identifications of
18 mortal remains. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. I have read all of the decisions that concern the organisation
21 and jurisdiction of the commission from 1991 onwards, and I noticed that
22 one thing missing and that's autopsies. That was never part of the
23 commission's jurisdiction. Why is that?
24 A. In this specific case, we're talking about a very professional
25 work that is carried out by competent scientific institutions on behalf
1 of the administration. The administration for detainees and missing
2 signed an agreement with competent scientific and medical institutions
3 which then carry out that part of expert activities on behalf of the
4 Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons.
5 Q. I agree with your position that this is a very highly specialised
6 activity. However, it is also my impression that this highly specialised
7 activity should involve the identification of missing persons,
8 particularly when it comes to DNA analysis. How come identifications are
9 within the purview of the administration and autopsies are not?
10 A. Yes, autopsies are within the purview of the administration,
11 because the administration carries out a series of activities that
12 concern the identification of mortal remains. It organises or rather it
13 organised the collection of ante-mortem information. It organised
14 collection of post-mortem information. It collects operative information
15 about the possible identity of those persons. It collects referential
16 samples for DNA analysis. The administration also carries out
17 preliminary identification of mortal remains. The administration also
18 organises the final identification of mortal remains. It maintains
19 records of all the identified persons, and finally it collects and merges
20 all the documents concerning all the identifications. Autopsies are
21 therefore an integral part of forensic processing of mortal remains, and
22 that documentation is also stored by the Administration for Detainees and
23 Missing Persons.
24 I apologise. When it comes to the final identification of mortal
25 remains, an activity that is co-ordinated and organised by the
1 administration for detainees, and missing persons is something that is
2 carried out by competent scientific and medical institutions in
3 co-operation with the victims' families.
4 Q. Could you just clarify this part of your answer where you said
5 that the administration carries out preliminary identifications. What is
6 that supposed to mean?
7 A. That means the following: Regarding all missing persons, the
8 administration has in its position ante-mortem data, data concerning the
9 life of the person. After the processing of mortal remains, the mortal
10 remains are delivered to the Administration for Detainees and Missing
11 Persons. The administration compares ante-mortem data with post-mortem
12 data and compares them with the circumstances of the finding of the
13 mortal remains and other operative information, and in that way it
14 narrows down a short list of persons to whom these mortal remains could
15 belong. This information is then delivered to the competent scientific
16 and medical persons for them to determine how well founded or not these
17 assumptions are. After that, families are invited for identification
18 with a proviso that, as I wrote in my report, currently all mortal
19 remains are subjected to DNA analysis.
20 Q. I would like to somehow establish the scope of your examination.
21 In view of your training as described in your CV, to what extent are you
22 able to answer individual questions concerning autopsies, DNA analysis,
23 exhumations, et cetera? In other words, I listened yesterday to your
24 testimony wherein you gave us collective information about all these
25 things and described what is written in those findings. That's something
1 we can see for ourselves. But I'm interested, for instance, are you able
2 to answer questions that concern a specific autopsy report? Why, for
3 instance, the conclusion is what it is about the cause of death, let's
4 say, the time of death, et cetera?
5 A. Regarding questions concerning autopsy reports and their
6 findings, I cannot answer them. I can answer questions concerning
7 organisational aspects, the methodology of the work of the Administration
8 for Detainees and Missing Persons, and the results of our work. As for
9 medical findings, this is a very technical job that is within the
10 competence of forensic medics, and I believe you had an expert witness
11 here who testified about this and that was Professor Davor Strinovic.
12 Q. That is correct, but he told us that he could only answer
13 questions concerning autopsy reports that he did himself, not reports
14 made by others. But I understand your answer, and it's all perfectly
15 clear. Would you just tell me, does the same apply to --
16 MR. GILLETT: Sorry to interrupt. I don't recall at this stage
17 Dr. Strinovic limiting himself to only reports that he had personally
18 conducted, and I believe if you look at the reports that were admitted
19 through him, there were a number that were conducted by other persons.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I put this question to Dr. Strinovic in my
21 cross-examination, and I cannot say what was part of transcript, but
22 during the break I could identify it.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Would you be kind to tell me one more thing. Does the same apply
1 to DNA analysis and their findings; for instance, why a person has been
2 identified in precisely that way based on the material that was gathered,
3 or would you be also unable to answer questions about DNA?
4 A. Of course I can't answer questions about that part of the work.
5 I can only speak about organisational aspects and results.
6 Q. You said yesterday that you attended a certain number of
7 exhumations on the ground, and I wanted to ask did you have an active
8 role on those sites where exhumations were conducted, or were you just an
10 A. In view of the fact that the Administration for Detainees and
11 Missing Persons organises exhumations and co-ordinates the participants
12 in the process, of course, I, as an officer of this administration,
13 played an active part.
14 Q. Could you just describe that role that you had? I'm talking
15 about the work on exhumation sites.
16 A. I'm talking about communication with other participants in the
17 process of exhumations, with representatives of international
18 organisation, as well as representatives of the competent bodies in
19 charge of searching for missing persons from Bosnia and Herzegovina and
20 the Republic of Serbia who in some cases also attended the exhumations.
21 Furthermore, my role also involved sometimes collecting additional
22 information from families of people suspected of being in the graves,
23 et cetera.
24 Q. Did family members of the potential victims attend the
25 exhumations themselves?
1 A. In most cases, no, except at one stage where identifications of
2 mortal remains were carried out on exhumation sites themselves or when
3 personal items were displayed on site for purposes of identification.
4 That was the case of Vukovar, the new cemetery, and Bacin Skela where
5 some mortal remains were identified on site. Then in a certain number of
6 cases of those found in Brkus [phoen], Sarvis Dol [phoen], and Bilje, I
8 Q. You mentioned the new cemetery at Vukovar. You said, if I'm not
9 mistaken, yesterday that that was a secondary grave, that some mortal
10 remains from Velepromet were reburied there. They were reburied at the
11 new cemetery in Vukovar in December.
12 A. Vukovar, the new cemetery, is a very particular grave. In a way
13 it can be treated as a secondary grave because that's where mortal
14 remains from Velepromet were transferred there in 19 cases,
15 Trpinjska Cesta 11 cases, Galisov Dol [phoen] 28 cases, Petrovacki Atar,
16 36 cases. However, in addition to those mortal remains transferred for
17 primary graves, there were also mortal remains in the Vukovar new
18 cemetery of people found in the streets of Vukovar, found in the area of
19 Bogdanovci, a total of 938.
20 Q. You mentioned yesterday -- you listed, rather, the organisations
21 with whom your administration co-operates for the purpose of determining
22 whether the missing persons on your list are still missing. That's page
23 3756 of the transcript. And I noted that in listing all these
24 organisations you did not mention courts. Does it mean you have no such
25 communication with courts in Croatia, of course?
1 A. We have communication with courts in Croatia and we have very
2 close co-operation with courts considering that all exhumations of mortal
3 remains that are carried out are carried out pursuant to a court order.
4 However, in the part of the work that concerns checking and
5 cross-checking records, I must admit that we did not take advantage of
6 this mechanism, and I'm not really sure how useful that mechanism would
7 be in determining whether a person is possibly alive or not when we have
8 at our disposal other mechanisms and other sources of information that
9 are up-to-date and of very high quality.
10 Q. I had occasion to take a look at certain Croatian regulations
11 that concern declaring missing persons dead, and I see that it is within
12 the jurisdiction of courts. I'll show you one decision that proves that,
13 which is 1D273 from our list. You will see it on the screen presently.
14 It concerns a person. It doesn't have to be broadcast. I'm not sure to
15 what extent this needs to be public. We will see the translation
16 presently as well.
17 You see, this is a ruling of the Municipal Court in Vukovar
18 declaring or establishing that a certain person is dead. The ruling also
19 establishes the date of death, and we see from this that it is the court
20 in Vukovar that has jurisdiction over establishing somebody's death and
21 the date of their death. That's why I wanted to ask you, do you know out
22 of all those persons that the administration found to be dead, how many
23 have been actually declared dead by a court ruling?
24 A. I do not know how many of them have been declared dead by a court
25 decision, but it is a fact that some have been declared dead for the
1 purposes of allowing families to exercise their rights. The families,
2 for instance, are unable to treat issues of marital status or issues of
3 inheritance as long as a person is on record as missing. That's why in
4 some cases families instituted proceedings before a court to have a
5 person declared dead.
6 This document illustrates this very well. This concerns a
7 certain Niko Soljic who was declared dead by a court ruling so that the
8 family can exercise some of its rights, but the fact is that we took over
9 the mortal remains of Niko Soljic from Sremska Mitrovica in 1999 or year
10 2000, considerably after he was declared dead by a court decision.
11 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm not specifically interested in
12 that -- this person, and we don't have to go into so much detail. I just
13 wanted to illustrate by showing this document that it is the courts,
14 actually, that declare a certain person dead, and as you say, it's for
15 the purpose of allowing families to exercise their rights to benefits and
16 other rights. And I believe that for these purposes, it matters only --
17 not only that the person is dead but also to establish the date of death
18 as is the case here. So I'd like to know whether and how your commission
19 or administration established the date of death.
20 A. The administration didn't establish the date of death. The date
21 of death is indicated in the declaration or certificate of death issued
22 by the competent scientific medical institution.
23 In a case such as this where we have court proceedings involved,
24 it is the court that determines the date of death. And if you allow me
25 to comment on this case, this case proves exactly what I've been saying.
1 In some cases, although it is not in dispute that persons were missing,
2 families had them declared dead in order to be able to exercise certain
3 rights, and they did so before a court of law.
4 Q. I understood yesterday that all persons who were missing and who
5 were declared dead, at least I believe that was your evidence, and you
6 will correct me if I am wrong, I believe you said all of them had certain
7 rights, all those persons who went missing in the armed conflict and were
8 later found to be dead, except there was a distinction between defenders
9 and civilians in terms of rights. So I concluded that all the people who
10 applied before a court to have a family member declared dead also had a
11 vested interest in having them declared dead, regardless of the fact that
12 somebody was a defender and somebody was a civilian.
13 A. In most cases what was at issue was inheritance, and that does
14 not depend on the status of the person because both families of civilians
15 and families of defenders have the same rights as far as inheritance is
16 concerned. So the families are not interested in having somebody
17 declared dead in terms of status. It usually concerns an issue of
18 marital status or inheritance. For instance, the spouse of a missing
19 person cannot remarry until her husband is declared dead; that is to say,
20 until the moment he has been found and identified.
21 Q. In other words, are you saying that one can exercise those
22 rights, that family members can exercise their rights irrespective of the
23 status of the missing persons, be it civilian or a defendant and that it
24 don't have to be based on a court ruling?
25 A. I apologise. I don't understand your question. I'm not sure
1 that I understand you.
2 Q. Let me repeat. Does this mean that the families of missing
3 persons could exercise their rights even without a court ruling that that
4 missing person died?
5 A. You mean in the matters of inheritance or marital status?
6 Q. No, I don't mean inheritance matters.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the counsel be advised
8 not to overlap because we won't be able to interpret. Could the witness
9 start from the beginning.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Bilic, you are -- you and Mr. Zivanovic are
11 overlapping and that causes a problem for the interpreters. Could you
12 start again your answer to Mr. Zivanovic's last question, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. We're talking about
14 the following: According to the laws which are in effect in the Republic
15 of Croatia, including the law on the rights of homeland war veterans and
16 the law on the rights of military and civilian invalids of war, which
17 deals with the status rights of civilians, prescribe certain rights which
18 may be exercised by the families of those persons which are considered
20 A special category are the rights of those persons who have been
21 declared dead or killed. Within their scope, the rights of the families
22 of the missing persons are almost identical to the rights of those who
23 have been declared dead or killed. This means that from the aspect of
24 the rights that arise from the death of their families, the families are
25 not motivated to have the missing persons declared dead, if not from the
1 aspect of those rights that I previously mentioned, and those are the
2 inheritance rights and marital matters.
3 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, yesterday you spoke about the
4 questionnaire, and you said that you participated in its drafting -- or,
5 rather, in its design, and that you also participated in the training of
6 the personnel that collected information about the missing persons. That
7 is on page 3755 of yesterday's transcript.
8 Could you please tell us whether those questionnaires were filled
9 out by family members personally, those who were looking for their
10 members of family, or were those questionnaires filled out by those
11 persons who had been trained to collect information?
12 A. The information was collected by the trained personnel of the
13 Red Cross. It was within their job description to possess knowledge,
14 know-how and experience in communicating with the families of the missing
15 persons. The questionnaires we filled out based on the information which
16 was provided to them by people searching for their family members. Every
17 questionnaire had to be signed by the family to confirm the accuracy of
18 the information contained therein. Questionnaires were also signed by
19 the officials of the Croatian Red Cross that filled out those
21 Q. This means that the questionnaires were filled out by people who
22 were trained to fill them out.
23 A. They had to have undergone training.
24 Q. And you participated in that training?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. On line 1 -- could you please look at P2324, a Prosecution
2 exhibit. While we are waiting for the document to appear, as far as I
3 could understand you, yesterday you stated that the administration
4 searched for all the citizens of Croatia who had gone missing in armed
5 conflict irrespective of their ethnic background or religious
6 affiliation; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. It seems that the two pages done not correspond to each other,
9 i.e., the translation that we see on the screen does not correspond to
10 the B/C/S original. Could we perhaps go to the following page, maybe
11 that will help, or perhaps even one page further. Let's go to the
12 following page quickly. Now we have both versions.
13 Could you please tell me, when it comes to this questionnaire,
14 how come -- what was the reason why ethnic background was included in it?
15 How would such information be of help in searching for a living person
16 and especially of a dead person?
17 A. As I've already told you yesterday, information on ethnic
18 background was considered general information. This is customary
19 information normally used in questionnaires. It is even used by the
20 International Committee of the Red Cross. I apologise. When we're
21 talking about the design of the questionnaire, you will find it in my
22 report, and I testified to that effect yesterday, that in designing it we
23 used the questionnaire produced by the United Nations Centre for Human
24 Rights, the search centre, and the ICRC questionnaire. That
25 questionnaire which was our starting point in designing our own
1 questionnaire also contains information about ethnic background, the
2 ethnic background of the missing person.
3 Q. In other words, in was taken over from the form used by the ICRC?
4 A. Amongst other institutions that use such questionnaires. The
5 ICRC is one of them.
6 Q. What about item 14? Was that also taken over from that same
8 A. I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
9 Q. Why then was that included in this form, because I don't see how
10 this can help in searching for a missing person or somebody's mortal
12 A. I agree with you. I agree with you, but at that moment it was
13 included. I really can't remember what were the underlying motives 20
14 years ago to have it included, but I agree with you that it really cannot
15 help the search process. The only thing I can say is that I absolutely
16 do not remember any case where religion was used. It was never analysed.
17 It was never used.
18 Q. When you say that this information was never used or analysed, do
19 you mean that the administration has never used it or analysed it, or do
20 you have in mind some other bodies?
21 A. I mean that in general terms this was not done. The missing
22 person dossiers are stored in the files of the Administration of
23 Detainees and Missing Persons, and this is the only institution that
24 these files are available, accessible to -- anybody else who wants to get
25 hold of the information has to file a request to the Administration for
1 Detainees and Missing Persons and explain the reasons for which the
2 information from those files will be used. I guarantee you that the
3 information on religious affiliations have never been used or analysed by
5 Q. Can we now go to the following page. Please look at item 18, the
6 questionnaire entry number 18. Question 18 concerns the affiliation of
7 the missing persons to an armed formation. There's a list of seven --
8 seven armed formations listed under (a) through (g).
9 What I would like to know is this: How were your staff trained
10 to be able to identify whether the missing person in question belonged to
11 one of the seven formations that are listed in here?
12 A. The information on the status of missing persons were collected
13 by the ICRC members based on the information provided by the victim's
14 family. In other words, the source of such information were the missing
15 persons' families.
16 Q. Tell me, within the framework of the examiners' training, were
17 they told how to differentiate between the seven military formations?
18 A. No, no. They relied on the families statements. Our staff were
19 not educated about that. The only logical thing was to instruct them to
20 encircle the answer provided to them by the family.
21 Q. Can we look at chapter 2 on the same page. Let's look at item 8.
22 That's question 8. It concerns forcible abduction and who did it, and on
23 the following page you see all the options. I believe that there is a
24 total of six possible options or ways to answer that question. Or even
25 more, perhaps even seven or eight.
1 How, if at all, were people who collected data educated and
2 trained? How did they instruct the families as to how to identify, how
3 to distinguish between these categories? For example, a JNA member, on
4 the one hand, and a member of the Territorial Defence of the JNA on the
5 other hand?
6 A. Just like in the case of the previous question, the source of
7 such information were families and the information that they were privy
8 to. The officials of the Red Cross staff did not instruct families how
9 to distinguish between those people who may have participated in the
10 abduction. What we envisage here is the most predictable answers. The
11 information on who was responsible for the disappearance or a forcible
12 abduction was provided by the families based on the information that they
14 Q. You see, in some cases when you look at these questionnaires, you
15 see that family members even pointed to some very specific persons who
16 abducted their family members. In many other situations they simply said
17 paramilitaries, civilians, or something along those lines.
18 What I would like to know is whether trainers were expected to
19 explain the difference to help them answer this question; for example,
20 could they be more specific and say that their family member was abducted
21 by a person wearing partly military, partly civilian uniform?
22 A. Both families and ICRC staff could opt out from this question if
23 they couldn't answer it. If they knew, when they knew, who was
24 responsible for forcible abduction, in those cases they could provide an
25 answer. Like you said it yourself, in those questionnaires that you
1 inspected, very often you have seen that the information does not have
2 that information, that they don't know the persons who carried out the
3 forcible abduction, and they leave out question number 2 where it says
4 say what you know about the aforementioned persons.
5 Q. When you worded those questions, what was expected under the
6 suggestion that one's family member was taken away by a member of secret
7 services? How could they have known that?
8 A. I don't know. There are various options. Many possibilities are
9 given. I don't even remember a single answer where that was encircled.
10 However, we try to envisage a variety of possibilities in order to
11 facilitate choices.
12 Q. Based on these questionnaires, those that were filled out, did
13 the administration carry out any checks of the data thus received from
14 those who were looking for their family members?
15 A. In what regard or in what part?
16 Q. Any.
17 A. That's a very broad question. Of course the administration
18 carried out checks on different occasions regarding the list of missing
19 persons itself which was being created based on these questionnaires.
20 Next, checks were carried out in terms of family members pertaining to
21 the part which refers to family and educational status. Information was
22 collected and kept up-to-date as regards their residence, which was also
23 necessary in order to take their blood samples and to organise the final
24 stage of identification. Furthermore, checks were also carried out to
25 obtain medical documentation in the medical institutions where the
1 families had mentioned the medical records of those missing could be
2 found. So certain checks were done that could have a specific impact on
3 resolving the cases of missing persons. They have been carried out, and
4 they still are.
5 Q. Since we don't have any information about those checks, or at
6 least for many of the people, I'll address that topic separately.
7 Now, tell me this, please: What was the date that was taken as
8 the date of disappearance if it was used as the date of death?
9 A. I have told you already that we did not determine nor do we
10 determine the date of death. It comes from the report on the fact of
11 death issued by the competent medical institution and court decision.
12 As regards the date of disappearance, perhaps if we can go one
13 page back in the questionnaire and then I can tell you precisely what
14 number it is.
15 Q. Can we go one page back, please, then.
16 A. As the date of disappearance, we relied on the piece of
17 information stated in question number 1 in the second set of information,
18 that is to say information on abduction, disappearance, or capture of the
19 person sought.
20 Q. In a number cases I could observe that that information differed
21 from the information collected on when the person was last seen alive. I
22 think -- well, I don't know what page this is, but I think it was on the
23 page after that.
24 A. It was on page 4 or 5.
25 Q. That is in the B/C/S text. I think in the English it is on page
1 5. Yes. Item 21.
2 A. I think another question from the previous page also refers to
4 Q. That may well be. Let's see. No. It's probably page 4 in
6 A. Regardless, I can try to answer. It has to do with the fact that
7 the questionnaire was drafted in late 1993, and information was gathered
8 in early 1994, which is over two years after most of these people
9 disappeared -- or, rather, most of the forcible removals had taken place
10 at that time.
11 Having in mind that the families in the meantime undertook
12 certain measures themselves, talking to different witnesses, and given
13 the fact that they obtained certain information, we envisaged an entire
14 set of questions pertaining to when the missing person was last seen
15 alive. The families cited all information they had available, for the
16 most part not citing the reliability of their sources. In most cases,
17 such information, unfortunately, were not useful in the process of
18 tracing, such as information when people tried to find their family
19 members by showing the photographs of their missing family members, and
20 then people will tell them, "Yes, I saw him there at that time."
21 In a small number of cases such information did indeed prove to
22 be true, but we could only establish that once the case file was actually
24 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you mentioned some specific cases; inter
25 alia, you said that only recently the identity of Haso Brajic has been
1 established, whose mortal remains were allegedly found in Celije.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Can you explain why it took 15 years to establish this person's
5 A. I'll try to. The person in question resided in the Republic of
6 Croatia, in Osijek. Haso Brajic was married, but he and his wife did not
7 have children. By -- well, Haso Brajic hailed from Bosnia. His
8 relatives, that is to say sisters and family members, that we had no
9 information whatsoever at the time, moved elsewhere during the war. The
10 mortal remains were treated by DNA method, but we did not have reference
11 samples. Thus we had nothing to compare the mortal remains to. We asked
12 for assistance of the competent bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina in
13 ascertaining the places of residence of his relatives and kin. The
14 moment we received such information, we asked for the assistance of the
15 International Commission for Missing Persons, who is otherwise our
16 partner in the process of identification. They took blood samples from
17 the found family members. By virtue of comparing them to the mortal
18 remains, it was established that there was a match. It was established
19 that the mortal remains found in Celije were those of Haso Brajic.
20 Q. As regards the time of his death, was it ascertained by the
22 A. The administration did not deal with that. It only had the date
23 of his disappearance at its disposal.
24 Q. Can we look at Exhibit 1964 from the Prosecution list. It is the
25 questionnaire for Haso Brajic. Can we look at page 10 in the English and
1 page 8 in the B/C/S version. Sorry, I don't think it is the page.
2 Perhaps it is page 18 in B/C/S. No. No. Page 10. Sorry. We need to
3 go back to the page that was on the screen a moment ago. That's the
4 right beige in the B/C/S version. I'm just verifying the page in the
5 English. I think it's the next page in English. Yes. That's it. We
6 have it all.
7 If you look at under (c), was the person sought ever treated in a
8 medical institution. You can see there that Haso Brajic was treated in
9 the general hospital in Osijek in 1992 and 1993. At the pulmonary
10 department in Osijek also in 1992 and 1993. On the other hand, we have
11 information that he went missing in 1991, in September. That kind of
12 data raises doubts as to his identification, in my view.
13 I wanted to ask you this: Given the fact that we do not have any
14 official information on his identification and we cannot explain how that
15 person ended up in Celije allegedly in that mass grave, although he
16 seemed to have been in Osijek in 1992 and 1993, does the administration,
17 given its policy of keeping that material, those documents, allow for any
18 checks to be carried out in cases of identifications such as this one?
19 A. I apologise. First of all, I'd like to ask if we could go back
20 to page 2 in this questionnaire for Haso Brajic.
21 Yes. The date of disappearance, it is stated unknown. Can we go
22 to page 8. I just wanted to make sure whether his family or his wife
23 ever mentioned any dates.
24 Sorry, not page 8. Page 4, where we have information on when the
25 person was seen for the last time.
1 Yes. If we look at number 29: Are there any circumstances
2 indicating that the missing person was killed or perished? And it is
3 stated "yes." A newspaper article dated the 22nd of April, 1992, from
4 the "Glas Slavonije" newspaper is cited. From this I conclude that his
5 wife, when providing information on his treatment in Osijek in the
6 hospital, she probably simply made a mistake. I apologise. That's what
7 my conclusion is, because if we here have an article published on
8 April 22, 1992, and it indicates that Haso Brajic may have been killed or
9 perished, then it can only logically be concluded that there was a simple
10 mistake when information was provided as to his treatment in the
11 hospital. He couldn't have been treated in the hospital in 1993 if in
12 1992 his wife stated that there was information indicating that he had
13 been killed.
14 As regards any additional possibilities to verify findings, this
15 case was identified through a joint project between the
16 International Commission for Missing Persons and the Administration for
17 the Detainees and Missing Persons. It is not an identification process
18 undertaken by the Republic of Croatia independently and alone. It was
19 carried out through a joint project with a renowned international
20 organisation, and their data is credibly relied on whenever DNA analysis
21 is discussed.
22 Q. I wanted to ask you something about this newspaper article given
23 the fact that you are an expert and that you work for the administration.
24 What weight does the administration and you as expert attach to a
25 newspaper piece? Judging by your answer, one would conclude that you
1 accept it as absolutely true.
2 A. It is not a question of whether I accept or whether we accept
3 newspaper articles as something that is absolutely true. What I'm saying
4 is this: If the family stated that according to a newspaper article from
5 1992 there is indicia that Haso Brajic had been killed, then that runs
6 completely against the information they provided on his treatment in 1992
7 and 1993. If he had been treated in the Osijek hospital in 1993, his
8 wife would not have stated that in 1992 he was probably dead. So we are
9 discussing facts here rather than assigning weight to a newspaper
10 article. The sequence of events is the essence.
11 Q. You yourself say that there is indicia pertaining to that
12 newspaper article, and that was the thrust of my question. What weight
13 would you assign to a newspaper article published during the war on the
14 other side of the front line; that is to say, not by people who may have
15 been eyewitnesses. You also say that the only logical conclusion is that
16 the data on his health status is inaccurate in terms of the dates of
18 What I'm trying to point out is that I think that another
19 conclusion is possible, and that is that the information contained in the
20 article is incorrect.
21 A. It's possible that some of the information is inaccurate. I
22 don't know. I can't see this newspaper article. But we are talking now
23 about time, about years. If he had been treated in the Osijek hospital
24 in 1993, then his wife would not have stated that he was possibly dead
25 since 1992. This issue is about the sequence of events.
1 Q. What did you say? He was dead in 1992?
2 A. That's question -- or, rather, the answer, the -- 29, namely:
3 "Are there any circumstances indicating that the missing person
4 was killed?"
5 And the answer is:
6 "Yes. The newspaper article from 22 April, 1992, 'Glas
8 So the newspaper article contains that information, and the
9 reference to this treatment here is in 1993.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, just one moment.
11 Ms. Bilic, the information about the newspaper article, if I
12 understand you correctly, is given by the man's wife; is that right?
13 That's an answer to the question put to her; right?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. Correct.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And the information about treatment in the
16 hospital --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's on. Just one moment. Is it okay now? Is
19 it okay now?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The information about the treatment
22 in the hospital in 1993 is also given by the wife in response to a
23 question. Is that correct as well?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So what you're saying is it wouldn't be
1 logical for her to say on the one hand there is information that he was
2 killed in 1992, and on the other hand give the information that he was
3 treated in 1993 in a hospital. Do I understand you correctly?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. And from that I conclude
5 that it must be a confusion, a mistake, and this is additionally
6 supported by the fact of the identification of the mortal remains of
7 Haso Brajic, which is consistent with the answer provided by his wife to
8 question 29.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the last page to
11 see the date when the wife of Haso Brajic provided this information.
12 Q. I suppose this is the newspaper story that you relied on, but
13 that's not what I wanted to show you. I wanted to show you this date.
14 Can you see it? Although it's rather pale, but I believe the year is
15 1994. At least we can see the year.
16 A. Correct. That is year 1994, and that was the first drive for
17 collecting information on missing person.
18 I would just like to correct one thing. We did not rely on the
19 newspaper story. The information from the newspaper story was provided
20 by Haso Brajic's wife.
21 Q. The date is 8 February 1994. Now, you just said that this
22 identification was done by the ICMP, the commission for missing persons
23 from Bosnia-Hercegovina, or was it Croatia?
24 A. The headquarters of the ICMP is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I
25 said this identification was done in cooperation between the
1 Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons and the International
2 Commission for Missing Persons in a concluded project which was called
3 Joint Project for Final DNA Identification.
4 Q. I want to know something else. Did you -- or, rather, did the
5 commission get from the other commission only the finding or did it
6 get the finding complete, all the supporting information including
8 A. The administration received from the ICMP the findings of the
9 analyses of blood samples of Haso Brajic's relatives.
10 Q. Did the administration get only the final conclusions or the
11 electropherograms underlying the conclusions?
12 A. We certainly did not get the blood samples. We got the findings.
13 Whether those findings are only figures or the electropherograms as well,
14 I don't know.
15 Q. I'm asking you this because it is very well known that the ICMP
16 does not provide this to anyone. In many situations, they were unwilling
17 to provide such things even to this Tribunal, and I don't mean this case,
18 I mean other cases, and I'm asking you this to find out whom we could
19 possibly address, you, your administration, or the ICMP?
20 A. As far as providing the findings of the analysis of mortal
21 remains including electropherograms, I can tell you that we have ICMP
22 findings. We have findings in those identification cases that were part
23 of a joint project between the Administration for Detainees and Missing
24 Persons and the ICMP. Through that joint project the mortal remains of
25 approximately 300 to 350 persons have been identified. The figure may be
1 even higher, and in more than 100 cases it was actually a confirmation of
2 findings that the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons
3 produced already which functions as a control mechanism, but we do take
4 into account all the information that concerns either the processing and
5 analysis of mortal remains and blood samples equally.
6 Q. I asked you specifically about electropherograms and you said you
7 don't know. Now you say you exchange with them all data. Now I'd like
8 to know where we stand. Do you receive also electropherograms or not, or
9 electropherograms are not included in this concept of all data that you
10 received from them?
11 A. I said that in the specific case of Haso Brajic I cannot maintain
12 at this moment that we do have in our possession the electropherograms.
13 It doesn't mean yes or no. It just means I don't know at this moment.
14 Otherwise, I maintain that we exchange with ICMP all findings and all
15 data concerning the joint project of DNA analysis of mortal remains.
16 Q. Does that mean that in other situations you do have
18 A. I believe we do in the majority of cases.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, would this be a good time?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And may I remind you for after the
22 break not to overlap, please.
23 Ms. Bilic, we take the first break, come back at 11.00. The
24 court usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Concerning the questionnaire again, that's
8 Exhibit 2324, I would like to look at page 2, item 8. It seems I need
9 page 3, question 8. This is -- this is the right one.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We just need the right page in
12 Q. The question 8 is:
13 "Who carried out the forcible taking away/capture of the person?"
14 And then we see listed various armed forces. We could say enemy
15 armed forces from the viewpoint of the Croatian armed forces, and my
16 question would be: What is the reason why no Croatian formations have
17 been listed here. None of the Croatian forces that are also listed in
18 the same questionnaire, more precisely seven of them, if you understand
19 my question.
20 A. I did understand your question. The thing is that in most cases,
21 as far as persons whose families initiated tracing requests are
22 concerned, the fact that they went missing is the responsibility of one
23 of these formations. However, under (g) we see "Other," and that leaves
24 the possibility of indicating any other formation, including some
25 formations of the Croatian armed forces if the families had reason to
1 believe that they were responsible for forcibly taking away or capturing
2 their family member. So this list makes it possible to provide any
3 answer based on the information available to the family.
4 Q. Could you tell me the reason why these formations are not
5 expressly indicated as they are indicated in that other paragraph? Why
6 aren't they mentioned by name as they are mentioned on another page?
7 A. As I've said before, most of the abductions in cases of forcibly
8 taking people away, the person who had gone missing and reported in that
9 drive in 1994 was the responsibility of the formations listed here, and
10 the possibility is also given of mentioning the Croatian armed formation
11 if that is the case.
12 Q. I would like to go back to another passage on a different page,
13 one page before this; that is, information on the membership in some
14 forces of the person sought. You see from item (a) to item (i) various
15 possibilities are listed. Can you explain to me why this does not
16 mention that the said person is possibly a member of the formations we
17 saw listed on the previous page, the Yugoslav Army, Territorial Defence,
18 paramilitaries, secret services, et cetera?
19 A. The fact is that this questionnaire on missing persons needs to
20 be viewed in the context in which it came into being. It is a good
21 instrument for collecting information wherein individual questions
22 reflect the situation that prevailed at that moment. There are also --
23 there were also some questions here that should be reformulated today
24 concerning UNPA zones and refugee status, et cetera.
25 As to your question why members of the JNA and paramilitary
1 formations are concerned or whatever you want to call them, most of the
2 missing persons who went missing in 1991 and 1992 were Croatian defenders
3 or civilians who went missing or were forcibly taken away by JNA and
4 paramilitary forces. Their families addressed the Administration for
5 Detainees and Missing Persons and initiated the procedure of the search
6 with the administration. The families of missing members of the JNA
7 addressed and contacted the competent commission for the search for
8 missing persons of the Republic of Serbia, or more precisely at that time
9 it was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, whereas members of
10 paramilitary units addressed the commission of the so-called Republic of
11 Serbian Krajina.
12 The fact is that in previously occupied territories, there was
13 also an established body that dealt with the missing persons who were
14 members of paramilitary formations or captured members of paramilitary
15 formations. The headquarters of that commission was in Knin. However,
16 one of its branches dealt with captured and missing persons in the
17 Croatian part of the Danube valley, and its headquarters was in Erdut.
18 Q. Does this mean that owing to the fact that that commission
19 existed in the territory that was at the time in the hands of the Serbian
20 forces, the administration didn't initiate any more serious proceedings,
21 as it were, to search for the members of those formations that had gone
22 missing in armed conflict?
23 A. No. That doesn't mean that. The administration actually did
24 carry out searches, but when it started procedures to collect data on
25 missing persons, an invitation was seen out to the families of those
1 citizens of the Republic of Croatia who had gone missing to report to the
2 administration and to report the disappearance of their members. That
3 invitation was published in the media on the eve of that drive, and it
4 was intended for all those citizens whose family member had gone missing
5 in the Republic of Croatia during the war.
6 The fact is, however, that at the same time, the other
7 commissions were being set up which dealt with the same issue in the
8 previously occupied territories of the Republic of Croatia. For example,
9 those para-authorities' commissions were active, and they appeared as the
10 other side in the negotiations together with us, whereas the families of
11 the disappeared members of the JNA and the TO mostly resided in the then
12 occupied areas of Republic of Croatia and sent their search requests
13 those commissions that were in charge of those issues.
14 That was the situation as it was in 1994 -- or, rather, in 1993
15 and 1994 when our questionnaires were designed and when information was
16 collected. Later on, and especially today, the situation has changed
18 Q. Let's stick to the questionnaire. I don't want to talk about the
19 situation as it is today. I apologise for having interrupted you.
20 A. No problem at all. What I'm trying to say is that this
21 questionnaire reflects the context within which it was created.
22 Q. And for that reason, if I understand you properly, this question
23 18 does not actually comprise members of various formations or, rather,
24 armed formations that are listed under 8 on the following page, i.e.,
25 members of the JNA, the police, the Territorial Defence, paramilitary
1 formations, secret services, and so on and so forth.
2 A. As I've already told you --
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one -- just one moment. We are overlapping
4 again, and, Mr. Zivanovic, as far as this is a question, isn't that asked
5 and answered extensively?
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, okay. I withdraw the question.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. And now let's look at 3747 which is another questionnaire and it
10 concerns somebody called Vinko Oroz. In English I'm interested in page
11 14. The corresponding page in B/C/S is 10.
12 There seems to be a mistake. Anyway, let's look at chapter 2,
13 question number 10. I believe that this is --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4 in B/C/S. I apologise.
15 And I believe that it should be on the last page in English.
16 Q. Please look at the entry under number 10. It says here, and it
17 is the last sentence:
18 "The person who submitted the application has learned --"
19 I apologise. It's not what I wanted to read. It's a mistake.
20 We will drop this exhibit. I have to withdraw this document. I made a
21 mistake. I apologise.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 3765 is the next document I would
23 like to look at. Page 5. I apologise. It's page 4, and the question
24 number is 21.
25 Q. It says here that this person was last seen in late February 1992
1 in Darda, in the police station there. He was recorded as somebody who
2 was killed on the 4th of February, 1992.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, what I have on the screen in
4 English is "date and hour," number 21:
5 "Date and hour when the missing person was last seen, end of
6 November 1991."
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We have in the B/C/S it is the end of
8 February 1992.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's see whether we can clarify this.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, yes, yes. It appears --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: 21. 21. Yeah. That's the one. Okay. Thank
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Did you make any checks of these allegations, i.e., that he was
15 last seen in February 1992 at the police station in Darda?
16 A. I really can't remember as I sit here. I can't remember whether
17 any checks were carried out in this specific case, especially not in
18 terms of his last sighting.
19 Q. I apologise. This question concerns this person, so if you do
20 not remember anything them, let's leave it at that. If you don't have a
21 precise answer to my question, let's not waste time.
22 A. If you're asking me whether there were any additional checks
23 carried out, I can say that I can't remember. However, when it comes to
24 this person, specifically I know that his post-mortem remains were
25 located and identified. As far as I remember, they were found in the
1 Republic of Serbia and taken over from there. I believe that we have at
2 our disposal documentation showing the time when those mortal remains
3 were taken out from the Danube River.
4 Q. I apologise. The RCMP carried out the identification?
5 A. In this case it was done by a DNA laboratory in the Republic of
6 Croatia. I would like to add the following: His mortal remains were
7 buried, if I remember it well, in Novi Sad, and then in 2002 pursuant to
8 an agreement with the commission and Republic of Serbia, we organised the
9 taking of samples from non-identified mortal remains buried in Novi Sad.
10 One of the samples that were taken were subsequent -- subsequently
11 identified as belonging to this particular person, and then by applying
12 the DNA method, his identity was established, and then the mortal remains
13 were taken over. Before we had a positive ID, we did not know what had
14 happened to that person, and we didn't know where his mortal remains were
15 buried. The control sample of non-identified persons from Novi Sad can
16 be found with the ICMP. However, these findings were arrived at
17 independently by my administration.
18 I apologise. I hope that we are talking about the exact person.
19 There are two persons by the name of Siles, Janes in Tibor. Could we
20 possibly go back -- or, rather, I have the materials in front of me.
21 With your leave, I would like to peruse the materials that I have in
22 front of me just to make sure that I'm not confused about the identity of
23 the person.
24 Q. I'm sorry, my time is limited. I just wanted to know whether the
25 administration checked these allegations. That is all. You have given
1 me a satisfactory answer when you said that you cannot be very precise in
2 terms of my question, so we will not go on analysing this document.
3 Let's now look at 31 -- 3931, which is another exhibit from the
4 Prosecutor's list.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page 4 in B/C/S
6 and page 5 in English. Question number 20. Can we go one page back.
7 Here at the bottom of the page -- I apologise. Can we go back to the
8 page that we had on the screen just a while ago. We had it on the screen
9 and then we went one page back. Can you forward one page.
10 Q. Let's look at the answer under 20, the last answer on this page.
11 It says here:
12 "His mother alleges that he was seen in Sremska Mitrovica."
13 This person, as far as I know -- or, rather, I would like to ask
14 you the same. Did you ever check whether that person was indeed in
15 Sremska Mitrovica?
16 A. For all the missing persons we checked whether they were in the
17 territory either in the Republic of Serbia or Bosnia-Herzegovina
18 depending on the case. A list of all the missing persons was submitted
19 to the competent bodies of the Republic of Serbia, especially of those
20 persons for which we had information that they may be detained in the
21 Republic of Serbia. As far as we know, we did not get a confirmation
22 that that person was in Sremska Mitrovica.
23 The only mechanism available to us for checking this kind of
24 information were negotiations, i.e., bilateral relations with the
25 corresponding commission of the government of the Republic of Serbia.
1 Q. Could we look at 4063, please. The name is Ivan Redzic. We can
2 move to page 3 and then to page 4 in B/C/S, and pages 4 then 5 in
4 Do you see here at the very bottom - again we should look at
5 question 20 - it is said that this person, on the 4th of December, 1992,
6 was seen at the Vukovar Hospital by an interpreter working for UNPROFOR.
7 The interpreter's name is indicated, and that he had surgery on his arm
8 at the hospital. When he was supposed to be taken over, he left the
9 hospital, and in May 1993 he was seen in Borovo Naselje under a different
11 A. I believe the answer to this is contained in my previous
12 explanation when I said that one set of questions focuses on when the
13 missing person was last seen, because we proceeded from the assumption
14 that -- we proceeded from the knowledge and the assumption that in that
15 interval, in the two and a half years, families have found something out,
16 and here in this case we also have a witness who was apparently together
17 with the detainees in Dalj, but in many cases this information proved to
18 be incorrect.
19 Q. I understand your answer's a general one and you've already
20 provided it before, but I'm interested in this specific situation: Did
21 you check with the interpreter of the UNPROFOR identified here? Did she
22 indeed see Ivan Redzic as we can read here?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. You testified yesterday about a French national who went missing,
25 Jean Michel Nicolier, and you said that he has the status of Croatian
1 defender, and that as far as you know this status necessarily requires
2 Croatian citizenship. I'd like to know do you know for sure that he has
3 the status of Croatian defender? Is this verified information?
4 A. As far as I know, subsequently, and I mean a couple of years ago,
5 he was granted the status of Croatian defender, but this part is not
6 within my purview. That is not the kind of information in my
7 questionnaire. So what I'm saying now is what I know from the media.
8 His family visited Croatia several times, including in order to provide
9 blood samples for DNA analysis, and as far as I remember, he was granted
10 the status of Croatian defender and included in the register of Croatian
12 Q. You said that Croatian citizenship is a requirement for that
13 status. Is that reliable information?
14 A. No, it's not reliable information. I said as far as I know I
15 believe that is so, but I'm not so familiar with regulations as to be
16 able to speak of this in any qualified way.
17 Q. You mentioned Milorad Stricevic yesterday and his identification.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. You said his family never made a tracing request in Croatia or in
20 Serbia or before the ICRC. That's on page --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the page number.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Tell me, how was the identification performed on
25 Milorad Stricevic?
1 A. By DNA analysis. The family was given the findings of DNA
2 analysis and also the findings of analysis by traditional methods, but we
3 had operative information as well indicating that among the mortal
4 remains from Daljski Atar there were also the mortal remains of
5 Milorad Stricevic. We found his relatives, including his brother. We
6 took blood samples from his brother, and based on that we established his
7 identity by DNA analysis, and those results coincided with the results of
8 traditional analysis.
9 Q. Giving evidence on this matter, you also said that year 1998
10 could not possibly be the year of his death, although it is indicated as
11 such. Can you tell me why is it impossible?
12 A. It was established that the mortal remains belonging to
13 Milorad Stricevic were found and extracted from the well in Daljski Atar.
14 As I said yesterday, the mortal remains from Daljski Atar belonged to the
15 locals of Erdut who were taken on several occasions away from their
16 homes. Closer to the bottom of the well were mortal remains of those who
17 were taken away first and thrown into the well, and then as they were
18 taken away in groups one after another, they were thrown into the well
19 group by group, so the topmost group of mortal remains was the group
20 taken away the last.
21 I do not have here information here about Milorad Stricevic, but
22 by the location of his remains in that well, it is possible to
23 approximately establish at what time his mortal remains were thrown into
24 the well, but they were certainly nowhere near the top.
25 Q. His mortal remains are designated as 1387.
1 A. Could you tell me the acronym next to the number?
2 Q. Not at this moment. But are you saying that you are not sure
3 whether his mortal remains were at the bottom or in the middle or the
5 A. Without this specific designation in front of me, I can't tell
7 Q. Then how did you establish that he was not thrown into the well
8 in 1998?
9 A. Well, that can be established, among other things, from the
10 condition of the mortal remains. The exhumation was in 1998, and if he
11 had been killed near 1998, then his mortal remains would have been better
13 Q. And to what extent were they preserved?
14 A. I don't remember exactly, but that can be established by looking
15 into the autopsy report.
16 Q. Do you remember if the cause of his death was established?
17 A. I really don't know. That's a question for forensic medical
19 Q. One last thing I would like to ask you. You said that the
20 exhumation started at Ovcara in September 1996. Could you tell us which
21 authorities were in government in that area at that time?
22 A. At that time within the process of peaceful reintegration the
23 UNTS force was present in the Croatian Danube valley area and the
24 Croatian authorities did not have full control of that territory. Did
25 not have full sovereignty there.
1 Q. Were there any Serbian authorities at that time in that place
2 during the peaceful reintegration?
3 A. I believe so, but I do not know what their mandate was exactly.
4 Q. Do you know that Hadzic was the head of that government, that
5 local government?
6 A. No, I don't know that.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I have no further questions.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In line 25, page
9 42 -- or, rather, line 24, the acronym is not UNST. It is UNTAES.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Gillett, redirect?
12 MR. GILLETT: Yes, there's a couple of matters to clear up,
14 I was going to say at the outset that my colleague said he would
15 get back to us after the break with a reference to where Dr. Strinovic
16 limited himself in terms of the autopsies he could comment on, so if
17 you're able to provide that at some point that would be appreciated.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Gillett:
19 Q. Now, Ms. Bilic, turning to some of the issues that were raised in
20 cross-examination. Firstly you were asked about the questionnaire for
21 Haso Brajic, and this is 65 ter document 1964. In that document, in the
22 section about his medical history, the Defence has raised this reference
23 to treatment in 1992 and 1993 at the Osijek general hospital. Could we
24 please get 65 ter document 1964 on the monitor, please. And if we could
25 go to page 16 of the English and page 14 of the B/C/S.
1 Now, these medical documents were attached to the missing persons
2 questionnaire. Can I ask firstly is it typical that there -- or were
3 there sometimes medical documents attached like this to missing persons
5 A. That was certainly typical if the family had any medical
6 documentation. Moreover, with every questionnaire, and that was also
7 stressed in the letter of invitation, the families were asked to provide
8 all documentation that they have, including medical records, and attach
9 it to the questionnaire, which in this case was done. There are cases
10 where we have the medical documentation and it forms an integral part of
11 the missing persons file.
12 Q. This document refers to the patient Haso Brajic being treated for
13 diabetes at Osijek General Hospital. So what would this suggest about
14 the reference earlier in the form to the treatment in 1992 or 1993? I'm
15 sorry, I should say this appears to be from the 1980s.
16 A. Correct. The date indicated here is 1981, and I believe it's the
17 same disease, diabetes. The difference is that the questionnaire
18 indicates a different period.
19 Q. And now if we go to page 4 of the English and B/C/S of the same
20 document, question 22. This lists the address when the individual was
21 last seen before he disappeared, and the address is Oraski Put near
22 Erdut. Now, if in fact he had last been seen at the Osijek General
23 Hospital, wouldn't that be listed as the address where he was last seen?
24 A. Very probably. Very probably. In that case the location of last
25 sighting would have been indicated as the Osijek hospital.
1 Q. Could we now get document 3747 on the monitor, please, and this
2 is the missing persons questionnaire relating to Janos Siles.
3 Now, in relation to this individual, a mention of the sighting in
4 1992 was highlighted, I believe. If we could get document 1D264, and
5 that was on the Defence list, and at page 1 of 1D264. And I recall that
6 you said in this case with this individual, you remembered that his
7 remains were taken over from the Republic of Serbia. If we look at
8 1D264, and it should be entry number 3, we see a markation after his date
9 of birth, N.S. 1086/91. Do you know what that indicates?
10 A. That's a designation of mortal remains, and there's also an
11 indication of the year when they were found. This year when they were
12 found was established based on the documentation that the Administration
13 for Detainees and Missing Persons received during negotiations from the
14 competent authorities of the Republic of Serbia. That is the time when
15 the mortal remains were extracted from the Danube River, after which they
16 were autopsied and buried at the Novi Sad cemetery.
17 Q. And what is the date in this case for Janos Siles, the year?
18 A. The year when the mortal remains were found -- oh, sorry. 1991.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. GILLET: If we could now get P1507 on the monitor, and this
21 was a document that was admitted yesterday, and this relates to
22 Ivan Redzic, whose state was raised at transcript page 39 of the
24 Q. Now, I note on the document referred to during cross-examination,
25 the date of disappearance for Ivan Redzic is listed as 19 November 1991.
1 If we look at P1507, which is the list of remains exhumed from
2 Dalj Catholic cemetery, we also see 19 November 1991.
3 My question is: When these bodies were exhumed, and you
4 indicated yesterday you were involved in the exhumation, how were the
5 bodies arranged? Were they in a group?
6 If we could scroll down to the bottom of the page in B/C/S. We
7 should see him at entry number 4.
8 A. Yes. The mortal remains were in a group. It is a classical mass
9 grave found at the Catholic cemetery in Dalj. The mortal remains were
10 found at a considerable depth, and above the victims from this mass grave
11 were buried persons who had died in the meantime, possibly even of
12 natural causes. In any case, above these mortal remains there were other
13 bodies buried, which made the exhumation considerably more difficult.
14 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, those were all the issues I had for
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I would just give the reference for
18 Dr. Strinovic part of evidence. It is transcript pages 2390 through
19 2393, 8 January, 8 January 2013.
20 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. There may have been some confusion.
21 When we looked at those pages, it appeared Strinovic was talking about
22 exhumations. In fact, one specific exhumation report that he said he
23 wasn't involved in drafting and -- and was not talking about autopsy
24 reports conducted by other people.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Bilic, this brings an end to your testimony.
1 We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.
2 You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home.
3 Thank you very much.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Ms. Biersay. Is the next witness
8 MS. BIERSAY: I believe -- I believe he is, Your Honour. If
9 that's the Court's preference, to go straight into it and then take the
10 break, I'm happy to oblige.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: The next witness may be brought in.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Thank you for
17 coming to The Hague to assist the Trial Chamber. First of all, do you
18 hear me in a language you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, yes.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Could you please tell us your first
21 and family name, your date of birth, and your nationality and/or
22 ethnicity, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hicham Malla. I was born in 1943
24 in Damask. I'm currently a citizen of Croatia, and I am of Syrian ethnic
25 background. I was born in Damascus.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to read the solemn
2 declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I
3 need to point out to you that by doing so you'll expose yourself to the
4 penalty of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful information
5 to this Tribunal. Can I ask you to read now the solemn declaration the
6 usher will hand to you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
10 WITNESS: HICHAM MALLA
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, your witness.
13 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examination by Ms. Biersay:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Malla.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. You described to the Trial Chamber that you are currently a
18 citizen of Croatia. Could you tell the Trial Chamber for how long you
19 have lived in Croatia.
20 A. Since 1964.
21 Q. Where did you complete your university studies?
22 A. In Zagreb.
23 Q. And what did you study?
24 A. Medicine.
25 Q. And what was your profession after you completed those studies?
1 A. I became a general practitioner.
2 Q. Could you briefly tell the Trial Chamber how it came to be that
3 you studied in Zagreb and stayed afterwards?
4 A. When I graduated, I got married. I found a job in Zagreb, and I
5 stayed in Zagreb.
6 Q. What was the nationality or ethnicity of your wife?
7 A. Croatian.
8 Q. Did you have children?
9 A. I have a daughter and a son. Two children, yes.
10 Q. Where did you live in Croatia in 1990 through 1991?
11 A. In Borovo Naselje in Vukovar.
12 Q. Where were you working in 1991, at the beginning of 1991?
13 A. At the beginning of the year I was in Zagreb. I was a resident
14 in occupational medicine.
15 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard about Borovo Naselje. Briefly,
16 could you describe where Borovo Naselje is in relation to Borovo or
17 Borovo Selo?
18 A. Borovo Naselje is a neighbourhood which was built for the staff
19 of Borovo, whereas Borovo Selo is an old village which is about 2 or 3
20 kilometres away from the new settlement known as Borovo Naselje.
21 Q. Are you familiar with the company named Borovo?
22 A. Yes. It was a huge company which had a lot of different
23 production segments, rubber production, shoe production. It even had its
24 construction part. Borovo also had its own medical centre known as the
25 Borovo Medical Centre.
1 Q. Did you ever work for that company, the Borovo company?
2 A. Yes, from 1982 when I joined as a GP.
3 Q. How many other doctors, if any, worked at Borovo?
4 A. In 1982 there were eight of us, and gradually the number grew to
6 Q. Are you able to approximate the number of employees that worked
7 for the Borovo company?
8 A. There were between 21- to 23.000 people working in Borovo, and
9 there are about 3.000 people on top of that working all over Croatia in
10 the Borovo shops and stores.
11 Q. You described that you were doing a residency in occupational
12 medicine. Were you working sometimes at the Borovo company in 1991?
13 A. Yes. Whenever necessary, when another colleague was on sick
14 leave or on holiday, I would come to help out, make up the numbers.
15 Q. In addition to being a doctor with the Borovo company, did you
16 work in any other capacity?
17 A. Yes. I was a sports physician or a -- the football club
18 physician. There was also a boxing club that I was in charge of, the
19 handball club Borovo, as well as the Borovo karate club. Those were all
20 clubs and teams which were sponsored by the Borovo factory.
21 Q. What local clubs were you the physician for?
22 A. The club's name was Sindzelic from Trpinja.
23 Q. And how did you become the physician for the Trpinja football
25 A. The president of that club in 1982 was Mr. Dokmanovic. He got in
1 touch with me. He told me that they needed a doctor part time. I
2 accepted the offer, and I continued working for the club.
3 Q. What is Mr. Dokmanovic's first name, if you remember? Well, let
4 me ask you this: When you were working as a physician for the Trpinja
5 football club, what was the nature of your contact or relationship with
6 Mr. Dokmanovic?
7 A. I served as the club's physician, and he was the president of the
8 club. We saw each other every week at games, and we socialised after
9 games, and then on Monday I would examine the players for injuries or for
10 possible treatments that had to be administered.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I didn't hear the answer of the witness on the
14 first question what is Mr. Dokmanovic's first name.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think Mr. -- the witness gave an answer,
16 but I may be wrong.
17 Did you answer that question, Mr. Malla, what Mr. Dokmanovic's
18 first name is?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer, but the name
20 escapes me. I can give you the name of his brother, but his name, no.
21 The brain's gone.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MS. BIERSAY:
24 Q. What is the name of his brother?
25 A. Jovan.
1 Q. Where did his brother work?
2 A. In the central warehouse of the Borovo factory.
3 Q. Did any other family member of Mr. Dokmanovic work at the Borovo
5 A. His wife also worked in the central warehouse.
6 Q. What contacts, if any, would you have with either the --
7 Mr. Dokmanovic's wife or brother?
8 A. We saw each other often, because we would often go to
9 Dokmanovic's home. My wife and myself went there for celebrations for --
10 for example, when we had the football club celebrations his wife would
11 attend. My wife would attend as well.
12 Q. How would Mr. Dokmanovic usually dress when you knew him back
14 A. Always in a suit, sporting a tie. He was an engineer. He was a
15 gentleman. He was also a politician, and he always wore suits. Now I've
16 remembered his name. Slavko was his name.
17 Q. And Dr. Malla, when you refer to going to the house of Dr. -- of
18 Mr. Dokmanovic, which Dokmanovic are you talking about?
19 A. Slavko Dokmanovic.
20 Q. And when you describe the clothing worn by Mr. Dokmanovic, which
21 Dokmanovic are you talking about?
22 A. Engineer Slavko Dokmanovic.
23 Q. I'd like to move towards the middle of 1991. Did there come a
24 time when you sent your children to live somewhere else?
25 A. Yes. When the school ended in the month of July, the Red Cross
1 organised the departure of our children to the coast. My son was ten and
2 a half at the time. I sent him to the coast. And my daughter remained
3 with me for another ten days or so, and then I sent her to Zagreb.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay -- sorry. Ms. Biersay, would you
5 allow me for one moment.
6 Still on Slavko Dokmanovic, Mr. Malla. The time you worked with
7 him or he was the president of the football club and you were working in
8 that football club, did you at that time know his ethnicity?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what was his ethnicity?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: And --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that whole village was a
14 Serbian village.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trpinja was a Serbian village.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is perhaps the next to my next question:
18 How did you know that he was a Serb?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the way he talked and by the
20 village he came from. Everybody knew. I was invited to their religious
21 holidays, to their religious feasts. Those were religious holidays, so
22 everybody knew who they were and what they were.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.
24 MS. BIERSAY: [Overlapping speakers].
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I see the time indeed. Thank you.
1 Mr. Malla, this is the time for our second break. Even if you're
2 in only for 15 minutes we have to take the break now. We come back at
3 12.45. The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you
4 very much.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please continue, Ms. Biersay.
11 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Dr. Malla, are you comfortably seated?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Right before the break we talked about your children, and you
15 described how you sent them out of the area where you live, which was
16 Borovo Naselje. Could you explain why you did that?
17 A. Shelling had started around Borovo and around Vukovar. War
18 activities had already started.
19 Q. And could you describe the intensity of that shelling?
20 A. For example, the kindergarten in the centre of Borovo Naselje was
21 shelled, so people were afraid, and they sent children away from
22 Borovo Naselje and Vukovar. Some left in the organisation of the
23 Red Cross and some left individually in the organisation of their own
25 Q. Did there come a time when the shelling intensified in the summer
1 of 1991?
2 A. Yes. It intensified. The biggest attack was on the 26th of
3 August, early in the morning, around 6.00 in the morning.
4 Q. Where were you when that happened?
5 A. I was at home. My wife, however, left for work in the Borovo
6 company at 6.00 in the morning.
7 Q. And on the 26th of August, 1991, what, if any, structures were
9 A. Most of the neighbourhood and the Borovo company itself. In
10 other words, individual civilian structures and the company, the factory.
11 Q. Did you go to the factory that day of the shelling?
12 A. No, I didn't. I couldn't. That's how strong the shelling was.
13 We all had to go down into an atomic shelter. I was very concerned about
14 my wife. I didn't know what was happening with her until that afternoon
15 when she was finally able to come to the company shelter herself.
16 Q. You describe going into the shelter. Could you describe which
17 shelter that was? The one that you went into.
18 A. In my own building in Borovo Naselje there were three such
19 shelters and a lot of basements. That shelter where I went to could
20 accommodate up to 400 people. It was completely under the ground.
21 Q. Did you stay in the shelter for an extended period of time?
22 A. Until the fall of Vukovar. That's how long we stayed in the
23 shelter. For three months altogether.
24 Q. And how many people were in shelter with you approximately?
25 A. Sometimes it was full to capacity of 400 people, and then their
1 number reduced to 300. They were mostly my neighbours, whole families,
2 children, elderly.
3 Q. What ethnicity or nationality were the people in the shelter, if
4 you know? Generally speaking.
5 A. They were all inhabitants of Borovo Naselje of all ethnicity,
6 Croat, Serb, Ruthenians.
7 Q. What, if anything, did you do for the sick or injured in the
8 Borovo Naselje area?
9 A. I did what I could. I couldn't do any surgeries, of course. If
10 somebody had to undergo a major surgery, I would send them to the
11 hospital in Vukovar, and if there was no room in the hospital for
12 recovering patients, they would send them to me if they were just
13 recovering from major procedures.
14 Q. Where were these people for whom you were giving care -- where
15 were they kept?
16 A. In the shelter. There were three atomic shelters which could
17 accommodate up to 1.500 people.
18 Q. Did the sick and injured stay in the atomic shelter the entire
19 time, or did they move somewhere else?
20 A. They stayed there all the time.
21 Q. I'd now like to direct your attention to the 8th of November,
22 1991. Do you remember that day?
23 A. What month is it? When you say November, what month is it? Yes.
24 On the 8th of that month, I was in the atomic shelter. That entire night
25 there was shelling. There was a major attack. And then around 8.00 they
1 called me and said that there were some people wounded in front of the
2 shelter. I took my bag. My wife went with me because I didn't have a
3 nurse. She helped me.
4 We walked from the shelter for some 20 metres, then we saw a car
5 ablaze. There was a man behind the wheel who was already dead. He had
6 been hit. And next to him was a child of some 9 years of age who was
7 wounded. I could see blood coming out of the child's chest, so I took
8 the child out. At that moment a person came out of the shelter who owned
9 a car and took the child to the hospital.
10 After that, the wife whose husband got killed in the car and
11 whose child was taken to the hospital came to see me, but she was in a
12 state of shock, so I gave her some tranquiliser. At that moment a shell
13 fell. I fainted. My wife got killed on the spot, and that patient was
14 wounded, and there were two other people who got wounded. The shell
15 blast threw me for perhaps 5 metres, which I realized only when I came to
16 after I'd fainted.
17 Q. When you -- excuse me. When you came to, what injuries had you
19 A. I was covered in blood. I was bleeding from top to bottom. They
20 drove me to Borovo Komerc, which is the Borovo warehouse. A doctor was
21 there, Dr. Emedi. They took me there together with my wife, and the
22 doctor confirmed my wife's death. He treated my wounds. He put stitches
23 on my head, and I had 43 pieces of shrapnel over my body, my back, my
24 legs. My complete body was pierced by the shrapnel.
25 Q. I'm looking at our translation, Dr. Malla, and it reads that you
1 had two to three pieces of shrapnel over your body. Is that correct?
2 A. I still have them, 43.
3 Q. Did you have two or three or did you have 43 as in 4-3? We're
4 having a problem with our -- with the pronunciation.
5 A. Forty-three pieces of shrapnel in my body, most of which were
6 removed in Zagreb, but I still have a few left in my body.
7 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber the -- where the wound
8 was on your head from the shrapnel?
9 A. The injury was here. It was stitched from here to here. I have
10 scars here, the entire back. There are many other scars on my legs. And
11 when I was leaving the camp and went to Zagreb, they took an X-ray to
12 remove the shrapnel and then they found also a fracture from number 4,
13 from C4 to C7. Not the vertebra itself but the joint between the
14 vertebrae. So there was fracture of my backbone, and I was put in a
15 plaster cast in Zagreb, a very large and solid one, for a long time.
16 Q. You said that you had stitches on your head. Did you have any
17 other kind of bandaging or anything on your head as well?
18 A. I was bandaged all over and with a net on top of the bandage.
19 The medical kind of net to fix the bandage on my head.
20 Q. Were you able to walk easily after you were hit with all the
22 A. Both my legs were injured, and I could walk only with great
24 Q. How did your patients react to you when they saw you that way?
25 A. They were extremely sorry when they saw me, because I had more
1 wounds and injuries than they. Some of them even refused to be seen by
2 me because they said I need a doctor more than they do.
3 Q. When did you and the others in the atomic shelter you described
4 to the Trial Chamber, when did you leave that shelter?
5 A. 17 November, around 4.00 p.m. The Home Guard corps advised us
6 that it's better to retreat to the company because the town will
7 certainly fall. There was a lull towards the evening. All of us
8 retreated. Some of us went to a shoe company because they had a large
9 basement, and the others went to the warehouse of Borovo Komerc.
10 Q. You describe that -- being told that it was better to retreat to
11 the company. Do you mean the Borovo company?
12 A. Yes, the Borovo company.
13 Q. And when you said that there was a lull towards the evening,
14 there was a lull in what?
15 A. There was no shooting or bombing or shelling.
16 Q. How many people would you approximate were in the basement of the
17 Borovo shoe factory?
18 A. Around 3.000.
19 Q. What was the capacity of that basement?
20 A. It was enough to hold 300 to 400 people at most.
21 Q. Did you treat anyone while you were there in the basement?
22 A. Yes, because that night three wounded persons were brought in.
23 They had gunshot wounds, not wounds from shells, because there were
24 snipers around the Borovo company and they were shooting at everyone.
25 Q. What, if anything, did you wear to identify yourself as medical
2 A. I was dressed normally, but I had a ribbon around my arm, a white
3 ribbon, rather wide, with the sign of the Red Cross on it.
4 Q. Were you the only one who wore such a band?
5 A. No. In the shelter where I was, there were another three
6 physicians, and in Borovo Komerc there were also three doctors. We all
7 wore the same armband.
8 Q. When did you leave the basement of the Borovo shoe factory?
9 A. On the 19th, the morning of the 19th, November.
10 Q. Why did you do that?
11 A. Because there was an agreement between the JNA, the Yugoslav Army
12 on the one hand, and the homeland -- Home Guards Corps, and we were told
13 that the army would let women, children, and medical personnel to go to
14 Vinkovci, whereas the others would be taken prisoner. But when we got
15 out they began separating us, men to one side, women and children to
16 another. Without asking anyone their name or their ethnicity or
17 anything, they started pushing us into buses using weapons, insulting us,
18 et cetera, and they put women and children onto trucks.
19 Q. When you say that "they began separating us," who is -- what do
20 you mean by "they"?
21 A. The Yugoslav Army, the JNA.
22 Q. Were they the only ones?
23 A. No. There were also civilians carrying weapons and
25 Q. What, if anything, did they, meaning the JNA or paramilitaries or
1 these civilians, did they do to the men before they were shoved onto the
3 A. They were beating them. They were saying, "Ustashas. We'll kill
4 you." They were insulting them in all possible ways.
5 Q. When they used the word "Ustasha," did that tell you what
6 ethnicity they thought you were?
7 A. I had lived in Yugoslavia for a long time by that time, since
8 1964, and I read the history of Yugoslavia and everything. I know that
9 there were Ustashas in Croatia before and Chetniks in Serbia before.
10 They were nationalists. Each was concerned only about their own people.
11 They called each other Ustashas and Chetniks. And if you want to insult
12 a Croat, call him a murderer, then you call him Ustasha. It was during
13 the time of the Second World War, a paramilitary or military formation
14 these Ustashas.
15 Q. In your estimation how many buses were loaded with the men who
16 had come out of the shelters?
17 A. Well, they filled the buses, and I counted nine buses, and I know
18 exactly that I was in the fifth bus in the line.
19 Q. Where did the buses go?
20 A. I saw the markings on the city buses, "Novi Sad," and I knew we
21 were going to Serbia, to Vojvodina, and they took the road to Zrenjanin,
23 Q. On your bus were there any armed guards?
24 A. There were two, one in the front and one in the back. I believe
25 they were military policemen, because they had truncheons which a regular
1 soldier doesn't have, and these men did have truncheons. So I believe
2 they were military policemen.
3 Q. What were they armed with other than truncheons?
4 A. Automatic rifles and truncheons.
5 Q. And what, if anything, did they do to the prisoners on the bus?
6 A. The same. They were showering them with slurs, calling them
7 Ustashas, saying, "We'll kill you. Keep your head down," et cetera, for
8 no reason at all, and it went on throughout the journey.
9 Q. How many prisoners were on that one bus?
10 A. More than a hundred, I believe. Literally on top of one another.
11 More than one person per seat. We couldn't even breathe.
12 Q. What pace did the bus drive from Croatia to Zrenjanin, I think
13 you said?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What pace did the buses take to get to where they were going?
16 A. We departed around 2.30 from the Borovo company, and we arrived
17 at Zrenjanin around a quarter to 8.00, which means we travelled more than
18 six hours approximately.
19 Q. As you were driving through Serb areas, were the buses greeted by
21 A. Yes, because the radio was on on the bus, and we heard war songs,
22 and we heard announcement that a caravan of 1.200 Ustashas from Vukovar
23 would be passing in such and such places. So in populated areas, when we
24 were passing through there were crowds outside throwing stones,
25 et cetera.
1 Q. When your bus stopped, where were you?
2 A. We arrived at a forest. It was dark by that time. In November
3 at 7.30, a quarter to 8.00 p.m., it's dark. Every five minutes the bus
4 would -- one bus would stop until our turn came. We stopped by a barn, a
5 pigsty, in fact, and we stopped about 20 to 30 metres away from that
7 When we were getting off the buses, we were passing through a
8 gauntlet that was made up of troops, army troops, civilians and military
9 police who were beating us with rifle butts from the moment we got off
10 the bus until we entered the barn.
11 Q. At the time that you were being beaten in this gauntlet, were you
12 still wearing the armband you just described to the Trial Chamber?
13 A. I was on the bus together with one other doctor, Dr. Karnas, and
14 two paramedics, and Dr. Karnas said we should get out together, the four
15 of us. And when they saw the red cross on our arms, they started
16 shouting "These are murderers. These are people who killed our wounded
17 to sell their organs," and they beat us even harder and tortured us even
18 more than the others.
19 Q. Did the wounds from the shrapnel that you'd sustained, was that
20 still obvious or had it all healed up?
21 A. The injuries were still visible because there were shrapnel
22 wounds on my neck and there was a scar. There was the obvious stitch on
23 the back of my head.
24 Q. And where were you hit as you were going through the gauntlet?
25 A. I covered my head with my hands, so I got most of the blows on my
1 head and my back.
2 Q. What happened once you were inside this structure, the shed --
3 the barn, sorry.
4 A. It was a large door. We were supposed to sit at the entrance
5 with our hands behind our back, head bent down, and they continued
6 beating us for -- without any reason, without even asking our names, and
7 that went on until all the buses were emptied. And that went on around
8 1.00 a.m. At 1.00 a.m., one of the prisoners who was being beaten said,
9 "Why are you beating me? I am a Serb like you." Then they ask him,
10 "What's your name?" And when he said his full name, then they left him
11 proceed into the back of that barn. He was the first to have courage to
12 say that, because there were 150 Serbs among us, and they started talking
13 one after another. Then I raised my hand. Then they asked me who I was.
14 I said I was a foreigner and a physician. And I was lucky because I was
15 sitting in the middle. And they told me, "Go back. You're not a doctor,
16 you're a mercenary." And four of them started to beat me.
17 Q. At some point did your beating stop?
18 A. No. They were beating me. I couldn't see properly because I had
19 to look down with my hands in the back, but the civilian approached
20 because I could see his trousers. I could see he was a civilian, and he
21 said, "Doctor, come with me. They won't beat you any more." At first I
22 did not respond because I did not dare believe him. I remained sitting
23 as I was. And he took me then under my arm, and he said, "Dr. Hicham,"
24 mentioning my name, "come with me." And then he took me to the inside
25 part where the Serbian prisoners were, and told the others they mustn't
1 beat me any more, and that's where I stayed until the morning alone.
2 Q. Did there come a time when you were asked to assist with the
3 medical needs of the prisoners in the barn?
4 A. The next morning while I was waiting there this young man who had
5 saved me came with a lieutenant-colonel whom I later learned was called
6 Zivanovic, and I believe he was the commander there. They were talking,
7 and then the lieutenant-colonel came up to me and said he was sorry over
8 what had happened to me, that there were murderers and Ustashas among us,
9 and he said I was lucky because that person Aleksandar had seen me. He
10 said that he was short of medical personnel, and when he got approval
11 from Belgrade, he was supposed to set up a camp there for 300 people. He
12 said, "Now I have more than 1.200, and can you work here as a doctor?" I
13 said, "I could, but I can't work alone. There are other doctors among
14 the prisoners." He said, "Let's go fetch them." So I went together with
15 him among the prisoners. I found four other doctors and one dentist.
16 All of us together were allocated a corner in the barn and five blankets,
17 and he said we should set up some kind of infirmary to examine patients.
18 Q. Were you or the rest of -- I'll call them your medical team, were
19 they continue -- did they continue to beat people who were assisting you
20 in these medical needs?
21 A. From that moment on nobody insulted me or beat me any more, but
22 other doctors were beaten, and the other prisoners got the same
24 Q. At this time turning to tab 6, 65 ter number 6395, it's a
1 MS. BIERSAY: And, Your Honours, that is a photograph that was
2 subject of the motion to add to the 65 ter exhibit list. So with the --
3 I'd like to make an oral motion to add that photograph to the list. It's
4 also part of the written motion that's been submitted to the
5 Trial Chamber.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that the written motion --
7 MS. BIERSAY: It's the eighth motion.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: The eighth one. Okay. So this is another --
9 another document or exhibit you want to submit to this witness?
10 MS. BIERSAY: Correct, Your Honour. It's on the -- it's on our
11 list to the Court as tab 6, but I'm just advising the Court that it
12 hasn't been formally admitted to the 65 ter list because a motion is
13 still outstanding.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Does the Defence have a position?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No position, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: You say no position; right?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what is it? The document is a photograph,
19 you said?
20 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Photograph of what?
22 MS. BIERSAY: I was hoping the witness would tell us.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: You would like the witness to tell. Okay.
24 MS. BIERSAY: But it's relevant to the barn.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Okay. You may add it to the 65 ter list.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time we'd ask that
2 the witness be shown tab 6, which is 65 ter number 6395.
3 Q. Dr. Malla, directing your attention to the photograph in front of
4 you, do you recognise it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What do you recognise it to be?
7 A. Barns used for pigs, and there was this trough where we slept.
8 That's where we were.
9 Q. And what name is this place known by?
10 A. Stajicevo.
11 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd ask for admission of 65 ter
12 number 6395.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1514, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MS. BIERSAY:
17 Q. In the photograph, Dr. Malla, it looks as if those two buildings
18 at the top of the photograph are attached. Were they in fact attached to
19 each other?
20 A. No, they were not attached.
21 Q. And what I'll describe as the long building and the short
22 building, in which building were you?
23 A. The one that appears shorter in the picture is the same length,
24 but you can't see it from the other building.
25 When we arrived, we were all in the same barn. By the next day
1 they had prepared the other part of the barn, and they moved 300 to 400
2 people over there.
3 Q. And you say they were all in the one barn and then moved to
4 another. Could you indicate for us by telling us whether it's right or
5 left? In which building did everyone gather as you described?
6 A. In this first one.
7 MS. BIERSAY: Could we assist the witness in marking.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 MS. BIERSAY:
10 Q. Thank you, Dr. Malla. And is that what you mean by the first
12 A. Yes. That's the first building where we were initially
14 Q. And keeping that pen, could you indicate to the Trial Chamber
15 where you and the others slept? And I'm now directing your attention to
16 the inset that you described earlier.
17 A. Here in the middle was an empty space. That's where the guards
18 were. And now you can see the troughs where some of the detainees slept,
19 whereas the others slept on both sides on the floor next to the windows.
20 There were no windowpanes, mind you. For the first ten days we did not
21 have toilet facilities, so we went -- when we had to go, we did it
22 between those people that were lying by the floor and the floor itself.
23 Now, you can imagine when over 1.000 people did that in the barn of this
24 size, you can imagine the conditions and the hygiene.
25 Q. Excuse me, Dr. Malla, I'll have to be a little descriptive. Are
1 you saying that people defecated and urinated in the same place that they
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. At some point, Dr. Malla, were you asked to gather
5 statistics on the ages of the prisoners who were at the Stajicevo camp?
6 A. Yes. Lieutenant-colonel Zivanovic asked me to prepare
7 statistical data in terms of the age of the detainees and I did that. I
8 prepared the statistical data. There were 19 children between the ages
9 of 12 and 17. There were about 470 people who were over 60 at the time.
10 Q. Now, you described when you first got into the barn how you had
11 to sit with your head bowed and your hands behind your back. What
12 instructions did the prisoners receive about where they should look or
13 how they could sit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After the first day, were there any special rules for how the
16 prisoners should conduct themselves when moving around the barn?
17 A. The detainees were not allowed to move around the barn at all.
18 When somebody had to be interrogated, they were taken out by the guards.
19 Otherwise, we were not allowed to move from the spot to which we were
20 assigned. There was no moving around.
21 Q. And what happened if people did move around?
22 A. They would be punished. They would be beaten. But everybody was
23 too afraid to make a move without asking for permission. We asked for
24 permission when we had to go to the toilet or when we wanted a drop of
25 water to drink or when we wanted to go closer to the wall to relieve
1 ourselves during the initial days.
2 Q. What was the floor of the barn made of?
3 A. The remains of a cement flooring. It was dirty. It was covered
4 with pig faeces, no windowpanes. It was a barn that had been disused for
5 15 years. There was no electricity, no lights whatsoever, no
7 Q. What happened at 5.00 a.m. in the mornings while you were at the
8 camp of Stajicevo?
9 A. They got us all up, all the detainees, and they were supposed to
10 sing the Yugoslav anthem. There's one part of the anthem that says "God
11 damn every traitor," and they were supposed to repeat that part at least
12 a hundred times because they were the traitors, and everybody who did not
13 sing would be punished by being beaten. And that was what happened every
14 day in the morning.
15 Q. How often did you see or hear dogs in the Stajicevo complex?
16 A. At first three nights in a row the civilian police came with
17 dogs, with trained dogs, and they would let them loose into the camp.
18 Q. And what did the dogs do?
19 A. They barked at us. They ran around. But they were all muzzled.
20 They were barking and gnarling and jumping. They caused fear among the
21 people. It all happened in the middle of the night 3.00 or at 2.00 in
22 the morning.
23 Q. You earlier mentioned this Lieutenant Zivanovic. Do you know
24 whether he was a JNA or military police or something else?
25 A. He was a member of the military police, but that military police,
1 they were also the JNA, I believe. I am sure that they were also the
3 Q. Were there any high-ranking military officials that you saw at
4 the camp?
5 A. I saw three. When we first arrived there and when we suffered
6 the most beating, there was one. There was an assistant of his. And
7 then when I was interrogated, that was done by a major.
8 Q. And do you know what affiliation the major had?
9 A. The JNA.
10 Q. You described to the Trial Chamber that you were no longer beaten
11 after you were chosen to organise this medical staff. I would like to
12 know if you were interrogated nonetheless.
13 A. There was a mistake. I was the only one who was not beaten from
14 then on, but the other doctors, they were beaten every day. Dr. Emedi
15 was the first one who was interrogated, one morning around 8.00. And he
16 came back around 5.00 in the afternoon. His face was swollen. Everybody
17 could see that he had been beaten. I spoke to him, and he said they
18 asked him about the Croatian guards, because he treated its members. So
19 when he couldn't answer a question, he would be beaten.
20 I was taken out for interrogation after him, but they did not
21 beat me, no.
22 Q. And where did the interrogations happen?
23 A. You can't see it in this photo. There is a little wood around
24 this complex, and there is a one-storey building which had probably been
25 the administration building for the whole farm, because there was a
1 hallway and five or six what probably had been offices, and in every
2 office there was an investigator, a person who interrogated us, and we
3 were brought there to those rooms for interrogations.
4 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to that building. Did you --
5 did there come a time that you saw someone there that you knew from
7 A. As I was coming out of the office where I was interrogated I
8 entered the hallway. The width of that was 1 to 2 metres. There were
9 two guards that were guarding me, and the group was coming from the other
10 side, and I was supposed to move, and one of the guards told me
11 Mr. Dokmanovic is coming with four escorts. And I saw him. They passed
12 me by. And I don't think that there were more than 30 or 40 centimetres
13 between my face and his face. He looked at me, but his eyes were empty.
14 It was as he had never seen me before. He just passed me by. He never
15 acknowledged me or that he knew me.
16 Q. And which Dokmanovic is this?
17 A. Engineer Slavko Dokmanovic.
18 Q. How was he dressed?
19 A. He sported military trousers. That's what I could see. And a
20 military jacket or a blouse. Some people call it a marshall jacket or an
21 artillery jacket. In any case, it had a lot of pockets and it was a
22 winter-type jacket. I have seen photos of Castro and Che Guevara wearing
23 similar jackets. Some call it marshall jackets, because I believe that
24 the marshals of the US Army wore similar jackets as part of their winter
1 Q. You said he was -- the guard told you that he was coming with
2 four escorts. Did you see the four escorts?
3 A. I apologise. It was not the guard who told me. I saw that
4 myself. He entered and there were four people accompanying him.
5 Q. And how were they dressed?
6 A. They had military uniforms, but those were camouflage uniforms.
7 Q. What, if any, weapons were they carrying?
8 A. They were armed, yes. They had automatic weapons.
9 Q. How did you feel when Slavko Dokmanovic looked you in the eyes
10 and ignored you?
11 A. I was very disappointed. First of all, he had been my friend, my
12 family friend. We had known each other for a long time.
13 Second of all, he knew I was a doctor. I treated his father when
14 he was sick, and I didn't have to, because I worked at the Borovo
15 company. I was not a -- his father's doctor. He knew that during the
16 war I was a doctor who treated everybody. I was not a defendant. I
17 never carried weapons. And in my view, he was in such a position that he
18 could have helped me to get out of there. He could have said that I was
19 a doctor who didn't have to be there, but he pretended that he had never
20 seen me before.
21 Q. At this time we're going to hopefully play some clips. Turning
22 now to tab 5, which is 65 ter number 48 -- I'll change the order, in
23 fact. Instead, turning to tab 14, 65 ter number 4886.2. And that is an
24 extract from 8 minute 58 seconds to 12 minute 32 seconds, and coming from
25 Rule 65 ter 4886, but we'll start at 11 minute, 14 seconds.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, what is the question? What is the
3 foundation for this exhibit?
4 MS. BIERSAY: I would like to play it for the witness and see if
5 he recognises the people or person depicted.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In my view it is leading.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.
9 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could now -- and I
10 see that the time code is at 11 minute 12 seconds.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Today Borovo Naselje is the most
13 destroyed and deserted town on the entire planet. We are talking to
14 Slavko Dokmanovic about that. What are we supposed to do?
15 "Unfortunately, Vukovar indeed is the most destroyed city on the
16 entire polity. A city which used to be clean, which used to have peace
17 and order is no longer. We will do everything to restore the city.
18 We're working on this very intensively in two directions. First of all,
19 we're going to organise the civilian authorities, and that will be done
20 today or perhaps tomorrow. Preparations to clean up the city and to
21 rebuild it again depend on several matters. Firstly, it is necessary to
22 improve sanitary conditions, then we'll clean up the rubble, and after
23 that we will build a new city according to an existing project. I
24 sincerely hope that this new city will never be an Ustasha city but a
25 real Serbian city where all people will live free."
1 MS. BIERSAY:
2 Q. Dr. Malla, before you is a freeze-frame from this video-clip, and
3 the time code is 11 minute, 24 seconds. Do you recognise the person in
4 that photograph?
5 A. Yes. That's Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.
6 Q. Is what he is wearing similar to or different from what you saw
7 him wearing at Stajicevo?
8 A. It's different.
9 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd move for the admission of
10 65 ter number 4486.2.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object at this point. For the purpose of
13 identification of Mr. Dokmanovic, vide-clip is enough, not the whole text
14 of his statement.
15 MS. BIERSAY: It's -- we would like to admit the clip for the
16 substance of what Mr. Dokmanovic is saying, but the witness has
17 identified the speaker as being someone he knows and who is indeed
18 Slavko Dokmanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness did not say anything about the
20 substance of his statement in this video-clip.
21 MS. BIERSAY: That's because the clip speaks for itself and he
22 doesn't need to. He just needs to identify the speaker.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1515, Your Honours.
25 MS. BIERSAY:
1 Q. Dr. Malla, was that -- when you saw Dokmanovic at Stajicevo, was
2 that the first time you had seen him in a military uniform?
3 A. No. That was the second time. The first time was around the 5th
4 of August in Trpinja. I went there to help a friend's son. She called
5 me. I was there, and on returning to the centre of Trpinja, I saw him.
6 He saw me. He asked me to have a cup of coffee with him, but I turned
7 him down because it was already late. He was wearing a uniform of the
8 JNA reserve. The trousers and the shirt that he was wearing at the time
9 were olive-drab colour.
10 Q. Dr. Malla, we have about, if I'm correct, about seven minutes
11 left, and what I'd like to do is to ask you to describe the people -- or
12 the prisoners that you treated in -- in the barn. My first question in
13 this regard, in fact, is: Were their prisoners who upon their arrival in
14 Stajicevo already were not able to walk?
15 A. Yes. Among the civilians there, there was an elderly man who was
16 paralysed. Among the civilians there was also a man with a catheter,
17 also an elderly man. There were two old men with crutches.
18 Q. Did you know these people personally?
19 A. I knew one personally but not the others. That one was from
20 Borovo Naselje, but I was not their GP. I was only a company doctor, and
21 they no longer worked there. They were too old to be workers of that
23 Q. The prisoners that you treated were -- had some of them already
24 been wounded upon their arrival at Stajicevo?
25 A. There were a lot of wounded. They needed to have their wounds
1 dressed. They needed therapy. But every day somebody else was wounded
2 as a result of beating. There were seven people among some elderly men
3 whose ribs were fractured when they had to run the gauntlet of rifle
4 butts and sticks. That's when they were injured, when their ribs were
6 Q. When you treated these people did they tell you how they had got
7 injured, for example, when they had broken ribs?
8 A. Yes. They told me that they had been beaten and that their
9 broken ribs were a result of that. I mean, it is -- it was really
10 incomprehensible. They were not all Croats. Some of them were Serbs.
11 There was an elderly man of some 70 years of age. His ribs were
12 fractured. He was a Serb. I can even tell you what his family name was.
13 He hailed from the Jeftic family. His grandson, Jeftic, was one of the
14 detainees in the camp. He couldn't breathe. He wanted to be transported
15 to the hospital to be treated there.
16 Q. Did they tell you why they were beaten? For example, let me
17 restrict my question to the Serbs --
18 A. Listen, initially when both the Croats and the Serbs were beaten
19 it was nothing but pure hatred. Okay, when there is a war there is a
20 war, but if somebody's detained, you cannot let rip on him. And then
21 people were interrogated, and they were beaten. They called them
22 traitors. If they had stayed behind in Borovo and Vukovar, they thought
23 that they had fought against them, they called them traitors, and they
24 would beat them.
25 Q. One clarifying question because we're close to the end, you said:
1 "... they were beaten. They called them traitors. If they had
2 stayed behind in Borovo and Vukovar, they thought that they had fought
3 against them."
4 Who was considered to be a traitor? It's unclear for the record.
5 A. Listen, as far as I know, there was a small number of Serbs who
6 were members of the Croatian guards, and they fought together with them.
7 They were civilians who didn't want to leave Vukovar -- or
8 Borovo Naselje. They wanted to stay in their homes, and they were
9 considered traitors because they remained living with the enemy and it
10 was a given that they had collaborated with their enemy.
11 MS. BIERSAY: I see, Your Honours. May I ask just one question
12 to clear the records before we leave.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
14 MS. BIERSAY:
15 Q. You said they wanted to stay in their homes. Are you talking
16 about Serbs or Croats when you say that?
17 A. Both Serbs and Croats, but there were also Serbs that didn't want
18 to leave. They wanted to stay in their homes. They didn't want to move.
19 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Dr. Malla.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Dr. Malla, this is the end of the hearing today.
21 You will come back at 9.00 tomorrow morning. I remind you that you are
22 under oath, which means that you are not allowed in the meantime to
23 discuss your testimony with anybody, and you are not allowed to talk to
24 any the parties. The court usher will escort you out of court, and we'll
25 see you tomorrow morning. Thank you.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day
5 of April, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.