1 Thursday, 2 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 Douglas Stringer with Lisa Biersay, Thomas Laugel, and intern
15 Marija Bukovac for the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and our intern,
20 Mr. James Foster.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 A short oral ruling. The Trial Chamber is seized of the
23 Prosecution notice concerning Exhibit P1513 and hereby grants the request
24 to replace the exhibit. The Registry shall take any necessary action to
25 implement this decision. Thank you.
1 Next witness is ready, Ms. Biersay?
2 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] I believe so,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
5 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, could I just ask if
6 anyone's having any difficulties getting into e-court or is it just me?
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you need assistance? Is it okay now?
9 MR. STRINGER: Yes, it's slow but it's now working. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 Good morning, Mr. Witness.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: With the answer you gave me, I take it you can
14 understand me -- you can hear me in a language you understand,
15 traditional question. Could you please tell us your name and your date
16 of birth.
17 THE WITNESS: My name is Petr Kypr and I was born at the
18 8th of May, 1948.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And do you want to testify in English?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. What is your ethnicity?
22 THE WITNESS: I am from Prague. I am Czech citizen and
23 originally I am Czech.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to read the solemn
25 declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I
1 must point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself to the
2 penalties of perjury should you give untruthful information to the
3 Tribunal. Could you now read the solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: PETR KYPR
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
8 Ms. Biersay, your witness.
9 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examination by Ms. Biersay:
11 Q. Good morning. Are you comfortably seated where you are?
12 A. Yes, thank you.
13 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what your current profession is.
14 A. I'm a diplomat. I am leader of analytical group and deputy head
15 of policy planning department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the
16 Czech Republic.
17 Q. And what rank do you hold?
18 A. My diplomatic rank is ambassador.
19 Q. Ambassador Kypr, I'd like to direct your attention to the period
20 of September to December of 1991. Where were you working at that time?
21 A. At that time I was posted by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as
22 the head of Czech delegation to the EC monitoring mission, and being for
23 short time in Zagreb, then I had been as a deputy head of regional centre
24 of EC monitoring mission to Belgrade.
25 Q. And for the record could you tell us the meaning of EC, you say
1 EC monitoring mission.
2 A. EC monitoring mission was a body which has been established since
3 very beginning of Yugoslav conflict, maybe to prevent the conflict. All
4 the legislation you can see in the Memorandum of Understanding between
5 Croatia, Serbia, and ECMM. ECMM in that time had been represented by
6 monitors from 12 countries, and because it was not enough, they asked
7 some other countries for support and one of these countries had been
8 Czechoslovakia in that time and as well, for instance, Canada, as my
9 colleague Cunningham was from Canada.
10 Q. What was Cunningham's position with the ECMM? And before you
11 answer that, does EC mean European Community?
12 A. Yes, EC is European Community, afterwards the name has been
13 changed to European Union.
14 Q. Now, back to Mr. Cunningham, what was his position within the
16 A. I don't know his previous position, but in the regional centre
17 Belgrade he had been the head of monitors.
18 Q. Is that referred to in short form as HOM?
19 A. HOM of regional centre Belgrade was Ambassador Michel Perrin, the
20 French ambassador, but the whole operational issue was controlled by
21 Hugh Cunningham as head of the monitors.
22 Q. And head of monitors, is that shortened to HOM in some of the
23 documents that --
24 A. Yes, it is the abbreviation.
25 Q. You touched a little bit upon the purpose for the creation of the
1 ECMM. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what was the mandate of
2 the ECMM?
3 A. Mandate of ECMM was rather limited. Our main task was to monitor
4 cease-fire or if not exist at least the situation and to help to prevent
5 bloodshed, to bring messages from one side to the other side to help them
6 to communicate each other and these supportive things like to follow if
7 there is -- there was some delegation coming from one side to the other
8 side. So we were in the convoy only to monitor the situation and to
9 confirm at least some safety of this delegation on the other side.
10 Q. What was your specific role?
11 A. My role in this mission was double. Once -- on one side I was a
12 monitor, on the other side, because I knew local languages and I could
13 speak fluently and I know the background even, so I was used for
14 interpreting in cases when it has been necessary, for instance, when we
15 didn't want to have an official interpreter from one or from the other
16 side because usually teams of ECMM were equipped by some interpreter from
17 JNA side, for instance. It was usually even liaison officer from JNA who
18 was interpreting, but in certain cases it was, let's say, more
19 independent or more safe for local people to speak directly to me than
20 through interpreter. So then I was interpreting as well. On the other
21 hand, I had to as a deputy head of mission work on preparations of tasks,
22 more or less knowing the background of the situation from the press
23 because I was following local media of both sides and trying to help
24 the -- in the preparedness to the situation which can appear.
25 Q. Have you testified before this Tribunal previously?
1 A. Yes, I have been a witness in two cases, the last one was with --
2 was the case with Colonel Mrksic and Major Sljivancanin.
3 Q. And there was a third accused in that case as well.
4 A. Yes, I know, but I don't remember the name.
5 Q. No, it's okay. You testified for four days during that case; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes, it's correct.
8 Q. You were cross-examined by three Defence attorneys; correct?
9 A. Yes, it's correct.
10 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention -- excuse me one minute.
11 You were involved with evacuations from Ilok, is that correct, in October
12 of 1991?
13 A. Yes, it is correct.
14 Q. And that was done pursuant to an agreement that was reached; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, it's correct.
17 Q. What was your participation in that evacuation?
18 A. In the -- it started or our contacts with Ilok started, I don't
19 remember exact date, but we got the message from Zagreb that there are
20 some problems in this pocket which have been surrounded by the JNA.
21 "Pocket" means few villages surrounding Ilok plus Ilok. So we went there
22 with one team to see the situation. Then we were told that people are so
23 scared that they are preparing referendum, if to stay and if to -- or to
24 go west and if to give up weapons.
25 Q. Did you say "give up weapons"?
1 A. Hand-over weapons to JNA.
2 Q. Now, you testified about this in the Mrksic case so I won't go
3 into extreme detail about this. What I'd like to do is to direct your
4 attention to the morning of the evacuation. Could you describe to the
5 Trial Chamber what you observed regarding the evacuees that morning in
7 A. It was very sad moment because I slept in the neighbourhood. We
8 didn't want to go to Belgrade, we wished to stay nearby to show that we
9 are covering the situation and to make people more safe and not raise
10 tensions. And so in the very morning the queue of these vehicles and
11 people was built, and it was a very sad moment because I went around the
12 whole queue and I saw how people were silently crying and there was
13 plenty of cars and tractors I have never seen because they wished to move
14 with whatever do they want, whatever do they have. So it was very, very
15 quiet but very depressive moment, but I didn't took part in the
16 evacuation because I had another task. So the other team came from
17 Belgrade to follow the evacuation and I went to Belgrade for another
18 task. So I have no idea what has happened afterwards, but the evacuation
19 was as I was told without many problems.
20 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to Lovas very briefly. You
21 previously testified in the Mrksic case regarding Lovas; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Why did you go to Lovas?
24 A. We got a message from -- "we" means EC monitoring mission
25 regional centre Belgrade. We got a message from EC monitoring mission
1 Zagreb that there are some problems in these villages especially in
2 Lovas. So we asked for permission to go there. Usually we were
3 supported from the JNA having the liaison officer, but in this case we
4 are told that there are some irregulars from the Croatian side and that
5 JNA cannot guarantee our safety. But because of urgency of this message
6 we got, we decided to go anyhow there.
7 Q. Ambassador Kypr, if I could interrupt for one moment. Where were
8 you when you got the message about the problems in Lovas?
9 A. I am not quite sure. It could be in Zagreb but even by mobile
10 phone to the car in Ilok directly, but I believe that it has been in
12 Q. And when you say that "we were told that there were some
13 irregulars," who told you that?
14 A. Liaison officer.
15 Q. And the liaison officer with which entity?
16 A. Means JNA, but I don't remember whom of them because they were in
17 daily contact with us.
18 Q. So you don't remember the specific person but you know it was the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you went to Lovas, did you, in fact, find irregulars from
22 the Croatian side, as you had been told?
23 A. No. We haven't found them, we haven't met them. What -- whom we
24 met there were two groups of volunteers, Serb volunteers, one group on
25 the road somewhere, the other group at the entrance to Lovas.
1 Q. Now, in your testimony and in some of the exhibits, one in
2 particular, you describe that visit so I won't cover that presently.
3 MS. BIERSAY: What I'd like to do now is ask perhaps that the
4 binder -- and this is a binder that has been approved by the Defence and
5 it contains some materials that will be relevant to Ambassador Kypr's
7 Q. Ambassador Kypr, in your Mrksic testimony you discussed events
8 and documents related to the ECMM's participation in evacuations from the
9 Vukovar area in November of 1991; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it's correct.
11 Q. One of those documents that you discussed, if we could now turn
12 to tab 27, it's 65 ter number 5125. And, Ambassador Kypr, we won't go
13 into detail for this document because it's previously discussed in your
14 testimony, but what I -- in that document there are discussions about
15 various evacuations in the area of Vukovar; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. It's the full coverage which has been done
17 afterwards, I believe, yes. Yes.
18 Q. And, Ambassador Kypr, would you be comfortable drawing an
19 illustrative map, very rough, just to indicate the various evacuations
20 that were going on in the area?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 MS. BIERSAY: Could Ambassador Kypr be assisted in just drawing
23 on a blank sheet of paper which I can provide and perhaps we can put it
24 on the ELMO.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. From Vukovar there is --
1 MS. BIERSAY:
2 Q. Could you --
3 A. -- Danube river --
4 Q. Could you put a V, perhaps, at the spot where you just called
5 Vukovar --
6 A. Yes. This is Vukovar. There is the Danube river. There is
7 Ilok. There are some villages, Bapska, Sarengrad, Mohovo. There is the
8 village Lovas, approximately, please.
9 Q. And could you describe -- let's start with the evacuations in
10 which you participated in. Where did your -- where did those convoys
11 travel from and to?
12 A. Okay. There were several convoys. Speaking about convoy from
13 Vukovar's hospital, it means convoy with wounded and sick people which we
14 were responsible to monitor. There were two convoys. First convoy went
15 in the first day and it should go directly to the point of contact in
16 Bosnia and further to Croatia, but because of some shooting on the way we
17 were told then later on that it is not possible. So convoy went to --
18 from the hospital, so it will be first convoy of wounded people. It went
19 to Negoslavci, then we were stopped and we got an information that it is
20 not possible to go further to Bosnia and then to Croatia. So we went to
21 Sremska Mitrovica, it is somewhere down, it is not in good form here, but
22 I believe that for understanding it's -- of the Court it's enough. So
23 this is Sremska Mitrovica and the first part of convoy was there
24 overnight in -- there is a garrison with a hospital and we were received
25 in this military hospital and wounded people were taken very seriously
1 and with a lot of help. During the convoy, as I do remember, one lady
2 and her baby died because of previous injuries or disease, I don't know.
3 And one man was in such a difficult condition that we have to let him be
4 here in this hospital and then he has been moved to Belgrade, I believe,
5 but it was confirmed by my colleague Dr. Schou from EC monitoring
6 mission, yes, that his health situation is such that he cannot be -- he
7 cannot be -- he cannot travel to Croatia so --
8 Q. Ambassador Kypr --
9 A. -- this was the only case --
10 Q. Excuse me --
11 A. So this is the first --
12 Q. Ambassador Kypr, one moment, please.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you spell the name of your colleague, Schou?
15 A. S-c-h-o-u, he is Danish.
16 Q. Okay. So -- this -- and you were with this convoy; is that
18 A. Yes, I have been with this convoy. Then overnight in
19 Sremska Mitrovica, other team from Belgrade came to -- and we hand over
20 the convoy to them, the first convoy, and then they followed to the
21 contact for the hand-over to Croatian side so it was somewhere Brcko, I
22 don't remember exactly the place. And we went back from Sremska
23 Mitrovica - "we" means Dr. Schou and me - we went back for another convoy
24 of wounded people and then we went directly to the place of the contact.
25 So it is the second day.
1 Q. When you say "the first day," do you mean the 20th of November?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the one W that you have there for the first convoy with the
4 wounded, that was the 20th?
5 A. This is the 20th.
6 Q. And the next one that you've now marked as 2W, that was the next
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that convoy you were also with; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And regarding -- if you could briefly just sketch the starting
12 point and the end point of the other convoys that were assisted by your
14 A. There were some more convoys for refugees. The main convoy went
15 from Marinci, this is near Vukovar somewhere here, I believe, Marinci,
16 and this convoy went on the 20th. But I don't know it personally but
17 only from reports and from what I have been told by my colleagues there.
18 So the 20th they started but they have to overnight -- to stay overnight
19 somewhere on the road. I believe that it has been in Sremska Mitrovica
20 but I don't know. So the next convoy went somewhere, it was the first
21 refugee, let's say. And then the next day, they crossed borders from
22 Serbia to Bosnia and then to Croatia.
23 Q. Where you placed an X, is that meant to be Bosnia?
24 A. Yes, the point of hand-over was mentioned -- was meant in Bosnia,
25 I believe so.
1 Q. And could you put "Bosnia" underneath that X just so that it's
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think at this point the references to Lovas and Ilok are no
5 longer relevant, so could you simply just make a line -- draw a line
6 through that.
7 A. Okay. So it was this pocket and I believe that now it's obvious.
8 Q. Okay. And does that complete the list of the evacuations that
9 you're aware of from the Vukovar area in the November period?
10 A. As I know, yes, at least what we have covered. But there were so
11 many teams and we were so busy that really I have no complete memory
12 about that because it was so exhausting to do only this convoy from
13 Vukovar that I, frankly, have no time and neither interest to follow
14 these things.
15 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we tender the illustration.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1644. Thank
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 MS. BIERSAY:
21 Q. Thank you, Ambassador Kypr, that terminates our use of the ELMO.
22 Ambassador Kypr, in your testimony you described the agreement
23 that was reached between the JNA, the Croatian government to facilitate
24 the evacuation from the Vukovar hospital; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in this regard, turning now to tab 4, which is 65 ter number
2 604, now I won't ask you many questions about this because it has been
3 discussed previously in your testimony. By what name do you refer to
4 this agreement?
5 A. It was usually named as Raseta's Agreement during our
6 negotiations, so this is the name I do remember during our negotiation
7 with JNA about the evacuation.
8 Q. And why was it known as the Raseta Agreement?
9 A. Because for the Yugoslav People's Army it was signed by
10 General Raseta who was the - how to say? - the main liaison or main
11 representative of Yugoslav People's Army in Zagreb.
12 Q. Now, the -- in the first paragraph, if we could blow that up, and
13 again we won't be going into detail but I just wanted to indicate that
14 the first paragraph describes the parties to the agreement; is that
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Are you able to see? I know that you've had eye surgery so if at
18 any time it becomes difficult, please let me know.
19 A. Thank you very much.
20 Q. And that paragraph describes the parties; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is correct.
22 Q. And was ECMM a party to this agreement described in paragraph 1?
23 A. No, the ECMM isn't mentioned in para 1, but it doesn't mean that
24 we were not involved because there was valid this Memorandum of
1 Q. And directing your attention to paragraph 7, does that address
2 the role of ECMM?
3 A. Yes, we are mentioned there and it is -- it covers our task.
4 Q. Directing your attention to paragraph 5, in your Mrksic testimony
5 you described that this agreement did not allow the JNA to remove wounded
6 prisoners of war from the Vukovar Hospital; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it's correct.
8 Q. And what was ECMM's understanding of the scope of that paragraph?
9 Who was it meant to cover?
10 A. It has to cover all those wounded or sick people undergoing
11 medical treatment in Vukovar's hospital. So it means that there were in
12 Vukovar Hospital -- there were wounded Serbs, Croats, maybe some other
13 nationalities because it was an open city before so I don't know. But
14 definitely who I know is Serbian and Croatian people were there as
15 wounded, as sick; Serb and Croat personnel as well in the hospital. So
16 it was a very mixed society, civilians, military, so all these people
17 were covered as we do understood this by this agreement, by the
18 Article 5.
19 Q. Now directing your attention to, as you describe in your Mrksic
20 testimony, the 19th of November where there were meetings held with the
21 JNA right before the evacuation from the hospital on the 20th. During
22 the November 19 meetings with the JNA, what was their view of the
23 coverage for paragraph 5 of the Raseta Agreement? Was it consistent with
24 the view of ECMM?
25 A. No, it was not consistent neither with ECMM but what was the most
1 important, it was not consistent with the agreement. First we were told
2 that prisoners of war will be removed from the hospital and that they
3 will be exchanged in appropriate time afterwards. And the second which
4 appeared to be even bigger problem, it has been that we were told that
5 there are Serb irregulars very angry with their losses in Vukovar or in
6 Vukovar battle and that JNA cannot guarantee if there is a single
7 Croatian soldier in the convoy, that they cannot guarantee the safety of
8 convoy. And "they" means irregulars will attack the convoy, they will
9 kill Croatian patients, whoever, JNA guard and as well as EC monitoring
10 mission because they are very angry and very excited.
11 Q. What was the reaction of the ECMM to this?
12 A. Colonel Cunningham, as very strong military -- strongly opposed
13 that, saying, "Look, there is Article 5 and there are some rules for
14 behaviour on the front line, Geneva Conventions, so you have to obey
15 these things which were already signed and which are valid." The same
16 behaviour was -- or the same position was taken by Dr. Schou.
17 Q. What went through your mind when you heard that the JNA planned
18 on removing wounded POWs from the convoy -- well, excluding them, I
19 should say?
20 A. I was very scared because if JNA, which is superior on this
21 territory, is saying that somebody else will do something and giving him
22 this power, it means that they are giving him even some responsibility.
23 So it -- for me it was very strange and I was really scared and -- but
24 there was nothing to do then, only to make aware our partners that there
25 is the Raseta Agreement.
1 Q. Now, I'd like to move from the agreement to the actual evacuation
2 itself. So I'd now like to move to the morning of the 20th of November,
3 1991. You and your team made your way towards the Vukovar Hospital; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when you and your team arrived in the Vukovar centre, did you
7 go immediately to the Vukovar Hospital?
8 A. No. We were stopped -- the whole convoy was stopped before the
9 bridge --
10 Q. One moment and excuse me, Ambassador Kypr. When you say "the
11 whole convoy," at that time what was the convoy composed of?
12 A. It was already prepared convoy for the evacuation. So there
13 were -- in the beginning there were some military vehicles with people
14 from local staff, let's say, some colonels and so on, so two, three
15 vehicles then. Then some other military vehicle and then our car as EC
16 monitoring mission. And behind us there were these buses, trucks, and
17 military ambulances for the evacuation of wounded people.
18 Q. There were no evacuees yet --
19 A. No, no, no, we were -- everything was prepared for evacuation and
20 we were stopped before the bridge.
21 Q. And for how long were you stopped before the bridge?
22 A. It has been as a minimum one hour and a half, but I believe that
23 it was two hours.
24 Q. And whose decision was it to stop the convoy in the place it was
1 A. It was some of the superior military. I don't remember if it has
2 been Major Sljivancanin or somebody else.
3 Q. And what was the reason given to you for stopping before the
4 bridge for approximately two hours?
5 A. Demining, demining of the area because it's -- then it is
6 dangerous for us to go through. So we have to wait until demining will
7 be finished.
8 Q. And who told you that?
9 A. Military.
10 Q. JNA?
11 A. JNA.
12 Q. From -- were you able to observe any demining activities from
13 where you were?
14 A. No, from the place we were stopped, there was not visible almost
15 anything because in front of us there were military vehicles and the road
16 is -- there is a curve. So it was not visible more and we can't see
17 anything because there were -- on one side there was a huge building
18 destroyed, some bodies were smelling there probably from this huge
19 building. On the other side there was Danube and the Hotel Danube. So
20 we were in such a place that there was not possible to see almost
22 Q. When you finally were able to move towards the Vukovar Hospital
23 and -- could you describe the situation outside of the hospital, what did
24 you see? What did you smell?
25 A. At the entrance of the hospital there were some five, maybe more,
1 sanitary wagons, ambulances destroyed by shells. On the left side of the
2 hospital there was standing a group of some 50 people, silent. Some of
3 them were in white clothes, in white like doctors or medicine sisters.
4 Then we went down to the cellar where the hospital has been for these
5 three months existing.
6 The situation outside of the hospital was very sad, especially
7 this part of the city. I do remember that because I was travelling many
8 times to the seacoast in peaceful time and it was really flourishing
9 place and one of the richest places in this area, and then there were no
10 one single tree without cut branches and one single roof untouched. The
11 whole road was usually two tracks plus some grass plus "trottoirs," so it
12 was relatively wide and the whole street was full of debris and destroyed
13 cars. Only one way for one car was there opened. So it was really a
14 sad, sad view. Then comparing to that, coming to hospital I was
15 surprised because as these conditions were like this, that they were for
16 a few months without water and electricity, they were lighting with
17 batteries from cars used as the source of electricity. So it was in
18 relatively good order and clean as much as possible.
19 In that time it was Colonel Cunningham with us as Dr. Schou and
20 me, so Colonel Cunningham visited the whole place. I went with him up to
21 the roof to see the situation there. Hospital was without military
22 presence from any side, so it was according the agreement. And then --
23 Q. Ambassador -- excuse me, Ambassador Kypr, I wanted to just stop
24 you there for a moment to ask you about your Mrksic testimony where you
25 describe that after arriving at the hospital, the ECMM was informed that
1 some people had been taken out of the hospital before you got there. Do
2 you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what the ECMM's reaction
5 was to that information?
6 A. This information -- Colonel Cunningham got this information from
7 me because I was -- I was told it by somebody in the hospital, but I
8 believe that he got the same message from the other side as well. It
9 doesn't matter. So Colonel Cunningham was aware about this situation and
10 because there was no communication at all in the down-town of Vukovar.
11 So then he went to -- went back to Belgrade to settle the situation.
12 Definitively we mentioned and we asked namely on Dr. Bosanac because we
13 have been in a contact with her before by phone and she was known and she
14 was a person of -- which could be in danger because of presentation of
15 her in Serb press.
16 Q. And when you say the "presentation of her in the Serb press,"
17 what do you mean by that?
18 A. She was presented like Dr. Mengele.
19 Q. You describe the details of the evacuation in your Mrksic
20 testimony and so at this time I'd like to move from Vukovar and go to
21 another topic. Is that okay?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. You described during your Mrksic testimony going to Lovas and you
24 also described receiving information about maltreatment of -- well, you
25 called the -- the difficult situation in Lovas and that you acted upon
1 it. In your notebook which was admitted in the Mrksic case and in this
2 case it's tab 34 which is 65 ter number 5673. And if we could go to
3 page 25 of that. Now, regarding --
4 A. No, no, no. Okay.
5 Q. Do you have it?
6 A. Yes, I have the page, 25.
7 Q. Now, what is -- now, in addition to hearing about the difficult
8 situation in Lovas, you also received information about the difficult
9 situation in Berak; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is. But it has been two months later.
11 Q. Correct. And the date of that is indicated in your notebook; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. And is that 13th of December?
15 A. I don't remember that, but if it is written here it's the right
17 Q. What information did you receive about the situation of Croats in
19 A. There was -- as I do remember, the first information was not
20 quite precise so it was only a signal that something wrong is going on in
21 the village Berak.
22 Q. When you arrive -- did you go there?
23 A. We asked for permission of JNA and, yes, we went there with our
24 liaison officer.
25 Q. And when you went there, what happened?
1 A. We were received by the local staff of JNA because probably there
2 was some unit situated. And then we have met with local mayor, I
3 believe. We were told that situation there is calm, that there are no
4 problems now at all, that there were some small clashes before, but
5 then -- but now the situation is quite normal. To confirm that, I was
6 brought to three houses of Croatian families because the village is on
7 the Serb -- was on the Serb territory, and I was brought to three
8 Croatian families and their owners confirmed that, yes, everything is
9 okay. What has scared me that their wives were standing in the corner
10 and were very sad or some of them were crying. So it repeated three
11 times in these three houses, and then I got the message that in some farm
12 of this village, in some house, big house of this village, that there are
13 some detainees. So we went to this home. There was some 50 people at
14 the age from 55 to over 80, I believe 85 or 88 was the eldest or oldest
16 Q. What was the predominant gender of the detainees?
17 A. Over 60.
18 Q. And were they men? Women?
19 A. There were more women than men, I believe 1:2 or 1:3.
20 Q. And when you say 1:3, is that a ratio?
21 A. Ratio.
22 Q. Of men to women?
23 A. Men to women.
24 Q. And did you have a chance to talk to these people?
25 A. Yes, I spoke to them. We were told that they were told that they
1 are isolated in this house because they were supportive or they could be
2 supportive to their -- to members of their families who committed some
3 attacks to -- against Serbs from these villages -- from this village.
4 Q. And did they tell you whether or not they had done that?
5 A. No, they denied that and they were -- in reality they didn't know
6 what is happening because they were not accused. They were not in
7 contact with police, neither with -- there was no any medical care. The
8 oldest lady was only laying in the bed in the house, what -- and probably
9 it was not only -- only is alive there because they have to go to bring
10 some food from what was the rest in their houses. So with guard they
11 were -- they went for some food. And a colleague of mine who was there
12 has shown me some bullets in the roof of the room they were sleeping. So
13 it means that probably it was not -- it was not the battle because the
14 bullets are usually in this level, horizontal level, not vertical one,
15 so ...
16 Q. I'd like to now turn to page 28 of that document. There is a
17 reference, it's the second block from the bottom of the page. It says:
18 "Investigation, jail, and court." And it says:
19 "Dalj SBWS."
20 Do you recall what that was in reference to?
21 A. This is because after meeting with these people, we were speaking
22 with this local representation and we were told that they are isolated
23 because of two reasons. One reason is to make them safer against the
24 aggressivity of people who were touched by this -- these attacks of the
25 Croatian terrorists and -- from their families, from the families of
1 detainees. And the second reason was to prevent them not to supply these
2 people, these terrorists, who are supposingly in the neighbourhood, in
3 forests. So this what we have been told. There was a description of
4 this explosion and who had some rifle. I don't remember details, but I
5 was told that it was investigated by the police and that it had been
6 before a court and we have to check it in the jail in Dalj which is the
7 local centre of -- region -- of local region. And what is the
8 abbreviation SBWS, I really don't remember.
9 Q. Do you know what happened to those 50 detainees in Berak?
10 A. I don't remember because I went to Zagreb afterwards so I didn't
11 follow the situation there, but I believe because we got a real promise
12 from the side of JNA that it will be settled from the side of our liaison
13 officer. So I believe that it has been settled.
14 Q. Ambassador Kypr, were you sent English audio files for your
15 testimony in the Mrksic case?
16 A. Yeah. I went through them. I listened to them all.
17 Q. And did the audios correctly reflect the testimony that you gave
18 over those four days?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was your testimony in that case truthful?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. And during that testimony you discussed many documents - we've
23 only touched upon quite a few today; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would your answers be
1 in substance the same?
2 A. Yes, I believe so. Only my memory is now a little bit weaker so
3 I will rely more on papers than seven years ago.
4 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we tender tabs 36, 37, 38, and 39,
5 which are the transcripts from the Mrksic case, and they are
6 65 ter numbers 5816, 5817, 5818, and 5819. We would also tender the
7 associated exhibits listed in tabs 1 through 35.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked. The Registrar will
10 circulate a memo with the exhibit numbers.
11 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. And thank you, Mr. Kypr.
13 MS. BIERSAY: At this time I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Thank
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
19 Q. Good morning, Ambassador. Do I understand that the pronunciation
20 of your last name is Kypr?
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Is that the correct pronunciation?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. Thank you.
24 Q. Thank you. My name is Christopher Gosnell, Ambassador Kypr, and
25 I am representing Mr. Hadzic in these proceedings. I have a few
1 questions for you. If any of my questions are unclear, please feel free
2 to ask for an elaboration or a clarification and I'll do my best. Do you
3 understand that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Now, am I correct that in the reports that you prepared and in
6 the keeping of your notebook that you did your best to be as full and
7 complete as possible in identifying the participants in the events that
8 you were observing?
9 A. Frankly not. The problem is that I was following the substance.
10 The official names and situations were usually described or make notes by
11 these people who were in the team and who were listening only one
12 version, so translated version. So usually the remarks of
13 Colonel Cunningham are better than mine because I was not following these
14 formal things. I was more behind this.
15 Q. Well, would you agree with me, then, in the course of your
16 documentation you do mention a great many names of the participants of
17 the speakers --
18 A. Of course, of course.
19 Q. -- of the people providing you with information. And the
20 question that I asked you was whether you did your best to record those
21 individuals who were providing that information?
22 A. I did my best in those circumstances because sometimes are people
23 coming and the discussion was such that I cannot take care about these
24 people. Sometimes I had a time to ask somebody to tell me who is -- who
25 is coming. On the other hand, I didn't care if somebody went out even
1 from the list. So I cannot guarantee that these people were sitting
2 there all the time.
3 Q. I understand you can't guarantee and I think you've answered my
4 question which is I believe that you did do your best; is that right?
5 A. Of course.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have Prosecution tab 11, which is 65 ter
8 Q. Now, sir, the document coming up on the screen in front of you is
9 one of the exhibits associated with your testimony in the Mrksic case and
10 it's a report dated the 8th of October, 1991. I'm right, am I not, that
11 you yourself did not personally take part in this -- in the mission
12 described in this report?
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, I just notice Ambassador Kypr looking
15 very intently at the screen and I just wanted to say that he does have
16 the binder of hard copies if that would be of assistance.
17 THE WITNESS: No, I will try to read it if --
18 MR. GOSNELL:
19 Q. But, Ambassador Kypr, just to make it easier, the binder you have
20 in front of you, sir, you could actually --
21 A. I don't think that it would be better. I have to go through the
22 translation to B/C/S because it's readable -- it's legible for me.
23 Q. Well, it's your choice. If it would be easier, you could turn up
24 the hard copy in the binder in front of you.
25 A. What I do remember, I was not a member of this team.
1 Q. But it's correct that you did visit the villages of Sarengrad --
2 A. Yes, yes, it is.
3 Q. -- Bapska --
4 A. It is.
5 Q. Sorry, Ambassador, if you can wait until I finish my question, it
6 will facilitate the transcription of the recording and then perhaps
7 observe a brief pause, otherwise our exchanges can't be recorded.
8 Am I right that you did visit the villages of Sarengrad, Bapska,
9 Mohovo, Lovas, and Opatovac on the 16th and the 19th of October, 1991?
10 A. I cannot testify or guarantee that I have been there in that very
11 day. I have been in these villages but I cannot say anything about the
13 Q. And what I'd like you to direct your attention to, please, is the
14 notation that says:
15 "1500: Meeting with JNA CDR at the Danube bridge ..." followed
16 by a meeting with the authorities of Ilok. A visit of the village of
17 Sarengrad, visit of the convent Ilok, and then again meeting with the JNA
18 CDR, north of the bridge.
19 A. Yes, this is written there.
20 Q. Now, first of all, do I understand that that is the bridge
21 connecting Backa Palanka in Serbia with Ilok in Croatia?
22 A. Yes, this is the bridge over Danube, the only in the village.
23 Q. And can you recall whether there was a JNA check-point at that
25 A. There was JNA on both sides of the bridge.
1 Q. And as you passed through with your liaison, were you -- I should
2 first ask you: Were you at all times accompanied by a JNA liaison
3 officer when you travelled in this region?
4 A. I am not quite sure. I believe that sometimes we were without
5 him in Ilok.
6 Q. And can you tell us physically how that worked when you
7 approached a JNA check-point, did your liaison officer facilitate your
8 passage through these check-points?
9 A. Yes, it was -- it was standard procedure.
10 Q. And in respect of this particular visit here and you made similar
11 visits around this time-period, do I understand correctly that in order
12 to follow this itinerary you would have to pass from JNA-held territory
13 into territory held by Croatian forces and then back into territory held
14 by the JNA in respect of Sarengrad; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it's correct.
16 Q. And physically, how again did that work crossing the lines? Were
17 you accompanied into the Croatian territory by the JNA liaison officer?
18 A. I believe that at least once there must be some JNA because we
19 were providing the monitoring of exhumation of some dead bodies who were
20 removed in one of these villages because they were buried only temporary
21 and they were moved to the cemetery in Ilok. So -- and in that very
22 time, I am sure that there was JNA present in this convoy. So at least
23 once I remember that.
24 Q. Well, let's approach this very concretely. If you were moving at
25 the bridge from Backa Palanka to Ilok and you wanted to go meet the
1 authorities, the Croatian local authorities in Ilok, did you pass a
2 conflict line, let's put it that way, between the JNA and Croat forces?
3 A. No. There was no conflict line. It was - how to say it? - maybe
4 open city in this sense. On the other hand, yes, there was certain front
5 line because what we were told by the JNA - and we saw that - that there
6 is another bridge with some mines around. So yes, the city was prepared
7 for certain defence.
8 Q. And in respect of a visit to Sarengrad by way of Ilok, on that
9 journey, a journey of that nature, would you have been accompanied the
10 whole way by a JNA liaison officer?
11 A. I don't believe it. I am not quite sure.
12 Q. Well, when you yourself went to Lovas and Bapska, casting your
13 mind back to that trip, can you recall whether throughout the duration of
14 your journey you were in the company of a JNA liaison officer?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Now, if we could turn to page 3 of this document, please. There
17 are conclusions listed. And this, sir, as you may recall is the lead-up
18 to the evacuation of Ilok. And under "Conclusions" it says:
19 "Arrangement at high level should be made to arrange an
20 evacuation as soon as possible!
21 "A team should be sent in two to three days to assess again on
22 the situation. The team should get in touch with the local authorities
23 and with the JNA."
24 Now, do I understand this notation to mean that on the Croatian
25 side you're supposed to get in touch with the local authorities and on
1 the Serb side you're supposed to get in touch with the JNA?
2 A. Yes, it is true. I don't remember contact with some local Serb
3 authorities in this case.
4 Q. And am I right in thinking that the reason why the ECMM was
5 addressing the JNA as its interlocutor was because it was the JNA that
6 was in control of the region?
7 A. At least JNA was our partner, so we were told in Zagreb: Please,
8 these are your liaison officers. We were not provided by the Serb side
9 by anybody else except of JNA liaisons. So it was the only contact even
10 to -- probably to civil authorities, through these officers.
11 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 65 ter 512.1, which is Defence tab
13 Q. Sir, do you remember - as this document is coming up - ever
14 hearing about an ultimatum issued by a JNA commander to the residents of
16 A. We were given this document by the local authorities in Ilok, and
17 I believe that it was not my team but some other team.
18 Q. Here's what it reads at items 1 to 2.
19 "Since residents of your village of Bapska have been peaceful so
20 far and have not caused any problems to JNA units, we assume that there
21 will be no problems in the future either. We request the following from
23 "1. By 1600 hours, collect all the weapons in the village and
24 bring them to Vikjaca, where a JNA organ will be waiting for you.
25 "2. If this is not done by this time, you can count on your
1 village ceasing to exist on the geographical map."
2 Now, do you remember whether there were any ultimatums of a
3 similar nature made to other villages?
4 A. I don't remember now.
5 Q. But you do remember hearing about this particular ultimatum; is
6 that correct?
7 A. I can't think more than we -- yes, we received this document and
8 I was not the person who were given and who were, let's say, informed
9 about the details of that.
10 MR. GOSNELL: We would tender this document, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
12 MS. BIERSAY: I am trying to locate our tab number, but it's
13 already part of his 92 ter package. So if I could just have some time to
14 find that document.
15 MR. GOSNELL: It's true that it does form part of another
16 document, but there's no English translation associated with this page of
17 the other document. Therefore, that being the case, I would like to
18 tender this document separately.
19 MS. BIERSAY: I believe that's one of the items that we modified
20 last week, but I'm happy to check. If we wish -- if the Court wishes to
21 admit this, then that's fine; if the Court would like just to give me a
22 few minutes to try to find the corresponding exhibit, I could do that as
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Shall we MFI it in the meantime?
25 MS. BIERSAY: No objections to that, Your Honour
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Registrar says that MFI it would cause a
3 little technical problem --
4 MS. BIERSAY: Understandably. So I believe that --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: So let's wait a few minutes and give you the time
6 to check it, Ms. Biersay.
7 MS. BIERSAY: And I believe in the meantime it could be -- that
8 it is tab 12. Perhaps in the -- during the break we could confirm it and
9 come back to the Court.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we'll hear from the parties after the
11 break about this. Thanks.
12 Just one moment, Mr. Gosnell.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, were you able to read the
15 name of the person who signed this ultimatum?
16 THE WITNESS: It's difficult to read it for me. I can't read it
17 with my eyes. Some major, but who is the person I can't see.
18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right. Thanks.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Now, Ambassador Kypr, on the 12th of October, 1991 -- and this
22 document is 05053, Prosecution tab 12, but I will not ask for it to be
23 called up. But on the 12th of October, you wrote in a report:
24 "We were supplied by both sides with a copy of an ultimatum by
25 the JNA," and this is "made on 11 October 1991 to the people of Ilok.
1 The ultimatum was under the authority of the JNA, and we were told by the
2 Ilok community that the officer in charge of the military district was
3 General Arandjelovic."
4 And then annex A of your report contains that document. Now --
5 MS. BIERSAY: I'm -- excuse me. I wondered if the witness could
6 be shown the cover of this document to see whether or not this is
7 actually his report.
8 MR. GOSNELL:
9 Q. Well, sir, if you perhaps could turn in your binder to
10 Prosecution tab 12, if there is such a --
11 MR. GOSNELL: And we might as well now bring it up on the screen,
12 Mr. President.
13 MS. BIERSAY: And conveniently, this is the same document
14 containing the Bapska ultimatum.
15 THE WITNESS: In my tab 12 I have not such a document. What is
16 there, there is a "sporazum," it means draft of agreement for evacuation
17 of Ilok or something like that. Yes --
18 MR. GOSNELL:
19 Q. Well, let's use the document on the screen in front of us, then.
20 A. Yeah, this is the first page here.
21 Q. Now, did you author this?
22 A. No, the writing is of somebody else. I am not quite sure who it
23 is, but not mine definitely.
24 Q. And your name --
25 A. Probably Mr. Waters from UK.
1 Q. And your name there up at the top, what does that indicate?
2 A. It means the leader of the team in that time. We were changing
3 in teams as leaders.
4 Q. So you participated in the events that are described in this
5 report; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. GOSNELL: And if we can turn over to page 2 and look at
8 item 2.
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
10 MR. GOSNELL:
11 Q. "We were supplied by both sides with a copy of an ultimatum by
12 the JNA made on 11 October ... to the people" --
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. "-- of Ilok. The ultimatum was made under the authority of the
15 JNA, and we were told by the Ilok community that the officer in charge of
16 the military district was General Arandjelovic. Copy of ultimatum at
17 annex A."
18 Well, let's see if there is a translation of annex A of this
19 document. Could we go to the last page, please.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the screen, sir. I think it may or may not be in your binder.
22 I'm not sure.
23 A. I have in my binder draft translation maybe of official -- but it
24 is not named as "ultimatum." It names -- the name is "agreement,"
1 Q. Except, sir, that in your report or in this report, it is indeed
2 described as an ultimatum; correct?
3 A. Yes, but it is described by the people from -- who were writing
4 that, they -- okay.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Well, could we please have 05053, please, which is
6 Prosecution -- I'm sorry, 05055, which is Prosecution tab 13. And if we
7 could please go over to -- after we've looked at the front page for a
9 Q. Is this document familiar to you?
10 A. It's not a document of my team, but generally, yes.
11 Q. You've seen this document before and you know it to be an
12 authentic ECMM document and report?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah.
14 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please go to page 4. Perhaps we should
15 start with page 3.
16 Q. Now, sir, that document there on the right-hand side of the
17 screen, is that the --
18 A. Yes, this is the same document we have mentioned as annex A
20 Q. And now I see it just disappeared.
21 A. Yes, this one.
22 Q. And is that indeed the document that's referred to in the
23 previous document which is described in the previous document as an
24 ultimatum and here we see that it's headed as an agreement?
25 A. Even in previous report it was headed as the agreement. So I
1 can't see the difference. Maybe there are some more remarks in --
2 Q. Sir, that wasn't my question and we needn't spend time on that.
3 But let's just go, if we can, to point 6.
4 MR. GOSNELL: And perhaps we could just slightly move the English
5 over so that we can see ...
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I see the time. Would this be an
7 appropriate moment or would you --
8 MR. GOSNELL: Could I just ask two or three questions and then
9 we'll be done with this document or -- I'm in the Court's hands.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: How long would you take? Depending on the
12 MR. GOSNELL: I say probably it's prudent to take the break now
13 then, Mr. President. Thank you.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
15 Ambassador, we will take the first break now. We will come back
16 at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of court. Thank you.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
22 MR. GOSNELL: Perhaps, Mr. President, I could use this time to
23 take care of a couple of housekeeping matters.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
25 MR. GOSNELL: The first being that there appears to be a slight
1 omission in the transcript at page 28, lines 6 and 7. I believe that my
2 question was whether or not that was the bridge connecting Backa Palanka,
3 Serbia, with Ilok, Croatia.
4 And the second point has to do with a document the Prosecution
5 and I have been discussing over the break. I know the Prosecution is
6 going to give their view in a moment. We do maintain the tendering of
7 65 ter 00512.1. Although it is very, very close to the document P316,
8 there is a notation on that document by a witness and there is also a
9 third page. And we would just like to have an unmarked version of this
10 document without the third page. Even though it's identical, we just --
11 for our purposes, we think it's cleaner to admit the document.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Just for completeness'
15 sake, I would also like to add that the ultimatum is part of tab 11 on
16 page 7, and it's an under seal document so we can't show it in public.
17 So P316, as mentioned by the Defence, and tab 11, page 7.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Well, Mr. President, that --
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Just one moment,
21 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, I take it when I look at your
23 exhibit list that tab 11, which is 65 ter 5050 --
24 MS. BIERSAY: That's correct.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- is not P316?
1 MS. BIERSAY: Oh, no --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I mean --
3 MS. BIERSAY: -- it's a different version.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's a different version?
5 MS. BIERSAY: Yes.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: And now the Defence asked for the admission of a
7 third version?
8 MS. BIERSAY: Essential -- that's correct, Your Honour. And
9 essentially it's -- they're asking for one page of 316, so a different
10 version of one page of P316. But we have no objections. I was trying to
11 be helpful and I may have caused more problems than helped.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, a different version of one page?
13 MR. GOSNELL: P316 is a version of this document that was marked
14 by a witness.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
16 MR. GOSNELL: And that also has a third page which indicates
17 extraneous information. It is true that this document is a part of
18 Prosecution tab 11. Nevertheless, we think it would be helpful to have
19 this document separately. If we --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which is only one page of that document?
21 MR. GOSNELL: That's correct.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: And why, if I understood you well, you're
23 referring to 5051.1.2.1? Is that correct?
24 MR. GOSNELL: I haven't checked the numeration since the
25 documents were exhibited, but that sounds correct.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that -- okay.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: So now the Registrar tells me that you tendered
4 Exhibit Number 51 -- no -- well, 65 ter number -- no, exhibit number?
5 65 ter 512.1; right?
6 MR. GOSNELL: That's right, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number D36. Thank you.
9 MR. GOSNELL:
10 Q. Now, sir, in front of us we have the -- this document which is
11 the one that is either an ultimatum or an agreement. It's been described
12 in the report as an ultimatum and here at the top we see that it's an
13 agreement. Just focusing there on point 6 -- and this again, just to --
14 for the record, this is the alleged ultimatum/agreement of the
15 11th of October in respect of Ilok. Point 6:
16 "JNA units shall take up positions in the town and set up the
17 town's command ensuring peace until the situation stabilises."
18 Now, again, just for the record, I apologise to have to interrupt
19 my question, but this is a draft translation and we say a better
20 translation of the words used is that:
21 "The JNA units shall take possession of the town and set up the
22 town's command ensuring peace until the situation stabilises."
23 Now, my question, sir, is: Do you recall that, in fact, it was
24 the JNA's intention during this time-period to take possession of the
25 towns in this area?
1 A. Definitely it is said in this document.
2 Q. Did you ever hear Major-General Arandjelovic threaten to flatten
3 Ilok to the ground if Croat forces did not surrender?
4 A. I don't remember that in these words. So I remember some
5 threatening but not in these words. Because there were -- on the other
6 side of the Danube there were tanks and it's 100 metres to the city, so
7 they can do whatever they want. There were boats on Danube as well,
8 military boats, so -- and from the other side there were as well present,
9 mean JNA, so ...
10 Q. As you've testified in the Mrksic case and now that testimony is
11 before this Chamber, there ultimately was an agreement reached between
12 the Croat side and the JNA in respect of the surrender of Ilok. And am I
13 correct that your role was purely passive; in other words, to observe
14 those negotiations and not participate in those negotiations?
15 A. Yes, you are right.
16 Q. But you did observe them; is that correct?
17 A. We were there as monitors. We were asked by local authorities of
18 city Ilok to be there to make a guarantee of their safety.
19 Q. And you were in the building where the negotiations were
20 occurring; correct?
21 A. Yes, we were in the building with drivers and with other persons,
22 but the negotiating teams were in another room.
23 Q. And you observed who entered that room; is that correct?
24 A. I don't remember if I see some persons. So it is written on this
25 agreement who made this agreement, but I cannot testify.
1 Q. But Major-General Arandjelovic was there; isn't that right?
2 A. I don't remember, sir.
3 Q. As far as you know, Goran Hadzic has no role whatsoever in these
4 negotiations; isn't that right?
5 A. I don't remember, sir.
6 Q. Do you also not remember whether there was anyone at all from the
7 regional Serbian government that had anything at all to do with these
9 A. I cannot say it because it was in a school and I am not quite
10 sure if everybody was presented to us and named. So I cannot say.
11 Q. But you know, sir, that none of your documents indicate any
12 presence at all by anyone from the Serbian district government?
13 A. Yes, it is so -- but, on the other hand, I cannot deny that so --
14 Q. So I'm correct in saying that?
15 A. Yeah.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 65 ter 5077, which is Prosecution
17 tab 20. And if we could please go over to page 2 of the document.
18 Q. Now, you say that you were only observers in respect of these
19 negotiations, but is it true that Colonel Cunningham conveyed orders from
20 the Croatian government in Zagreb to the local Croatian authorities in
22 A. I don't think that it has been an order, but yes, there was some
24 Q. What was the content of that communication?
25 A. I don't remember precisely but it is mentioned in some of reports
1 of Mr. Cunningham, so I believe that we can take it as a granted.
2 Q. Well, let's go over to page 3 of this document. And this, sir,
3 is a letter or some kind of a written communication by Ambassador Perrin
4 who is, as I understand it, defending you and Colonel Cunningham against
5 accusations by the Croatian government that you had improperly
6 facilitated ethnic cleansing and even genocide in respect of Ilok. And
7 Ambassador Perrin says - and if we can just turn over the page, please -
8 and this is a quote:
9 "Finally, when Cunningham relayed Zagreb's direct order to the
10 village senior personnel to cease and desist in any activities that could
11 be construed as aiding the evacuation, the spokesman for the villagers
12 stated, quote, 'We are totally neutral. The presence of the mission is
13 our only guarantee not to be killed -- I don't see and exit for us. We
14 are victims. We can't have control. Army can do own work. And Ilok may
15 not exist and Ilok will be same as Sarengrad and Bapska.'"
16 Now, as far as you can recall, is that right that the order that
17 Cunningham conveyed was that senior personnel should cease any
18 involvement in the evacuation?
19 A. I still can't see as an order because if it is an order, then
20 there is no evacuation, if they are obeying these orders.
21 Q. Well, the words used there are "direct order"; correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Now, you want to characterise it as an instruction, I won't argue
24 with you about that, but was it the case that this order or instruction
25 was not only to cease engaging in the evacuation, but in fact to continue
1 to fight the JNA?
2 A. I can't read it in these words, but maybe -- no, I can't read it.
3 I can't see it.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 05067, please, which is Prosecution
5 tab 18.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
7 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you. It's just a reminder that this is an
8 under seal document.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Now that I look at it, I see that's the case, so
10 perhaps it could just not be displayed.
11 Q. Sir, if you -- looking at this document, is this a document that
12 you prepared?
13 A. No, it is written by somebody else. Only probably there are some
14 remarks down on the page made by me, but I'm not quite sure. Yes,
15 Colonel Grahovac at the bridge, it is my handwriting.
16 Q. All right. Now, let's turn over to page 2, please. And at
17 point A:
18 "Contact with Colonel Grahovac at 1100 at Ilok bridge," and
19 again, just for the record, the date of this is the 19th of October,
20 1991, so this is after the evacuation of Ilok.
21 "Contact with Colonel Grahovac at 1100 on Ilok bridge. From
22 Colonel Grahovac:
23 "Ilok and villages Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo, Lovas are safe and
24 quiet and under JNA control.
25 [As read] "The JNA is going at Sunday to establish a civilian
1 municipal council. It's prohibited for the people of Ilok to get out of
2 their home from 1800 to 1700 ..."
3 Now, I want to specifically ask you about the JNA setting up a
4 civilian municipal council. Do you remember that?
5 A. No, I don't remember. I don't remember even -- I was not there
6 in that time, I believe, so I have no idea about the municipal council.
7 Q. Do you remember whether there was a curfew in effect?
8 A. I don't remember, sir.
9 Q. And this document says that these other villages are safe and
10 quiet and under JNA control, and then down at point 4 there's some more
11 discussion about those other villages. And it says:
12 "Situation in the other villages (Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo), as
13 previous reports.
14 "5. We didn't visit Lovas because darkness and problems with JNA
16 "6. Presence of plus -- or around 1 company JNA in the three
17 villages west of Ilok."
18 Now, we talked about this earlier, but am I correct in
19 understanding that on the 19th of October, 1991, as far as you knew,
20 there were JNA controls throughout this region?
21 A. Yes, according this report they were controlling that.
22 Q. And were they controlling access to these villages?
23 A. I cannot say because I don't understand, I don't know, to which
24 reports, report or reports, is referring to point 4 because there could
25 be some reports I don't know or maybe some reports from our time, I don't
2 Q. Well, I'm not so much interested in point 4, but rather point 5:
3 "We didn't visit Lovas because darkness and problems with JNA
5 Can you answer this: Do you remember whether you had any delays
6 when you were passing through these JNA controls in this area?
7 A. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I do remember that we were waiting
8 for two hours for some meeting which it should be in few minutes, and in
9 the very moment we turn over and went back to Belgrade then they came.
10 So there are different situation, and I was not there so I cannot explain
11 it and probably my testimony in that will rely only on that I can confirm
12 that this document is existing.
13 Q. Well, you were there on the 16th of October, weren't you?
14 A. I don't remember, sir.
15 Q. Well, one of your reports is dated the 16th of October and you
16 say you went to Lovas.
17 A. Yeah, if it is written in the document, but I told you that I
18 don't remember numbers. It's a problem.
19 Q. Never mind numbers, never mind dates. We know from one of your
20 previous reports that you went to Lovas. On the occasion of that visit
21 when you went to Lovas and I presume other villages, do you remember
22 being controlled at JNA check-points on your way into those villages?
23 A. What I do remember that during this way we have already mentioned
24 to Lovas when I have met with this local authority and was given by the
25 list that people, I do remember that we were alone and I can confirm that
1 because at the end of Ilok we had no coverage from JNA so I asked my
2 driver: Please stay here in Ilok because it's not necessary to risk so
3 much so we can drive the car ourselves, mean Cunningham and me. So I
4 know that in that time there was no JNA. And at the end I was
5 translating in Ilok and I do remember that this guy was insisting on some
6 translation and I couldn't found appropriate English term. So I remember
7 this, how he was insisting. So liaison officer was not there to help me.
8 So I do know these things. There is nothing I can say more.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Let's have Prosecution tab 9, which is 5037. This
10 also is under seal so it should not be broadcast.
11 Q. And this is a Telex that I'm sure you're familiar with I
12 understand from Cunningham or at least prepared by Cunningham. And on
13 page 2 there is a description of the -- what is described as the JNA
14 scenario and then there are six points. Now, I just want to move you, if
15 I may, to the very last paragraph.
16 "Another defence of the JNA was that they could not be held
17 responsible for the behaviour of the Chetniks. The monitor team is,
18 however, convinced that the JNA very closely co-operated with those
19 reservists and is of the opinion that the leadership of the JNA should
20 directly or indirectly be held responsible for their acts."
21 Now, is it correct that the irregular forces, as far as you could
22 observe them, were acting in close co-operation with the JNA, as
23 described here?
24 A. First allow me a remark, I am not quite sure that this report or
25 fax has been done by Cunningham. I believe that it's a part or the full
1 special report which has been done by the -- our headquarters by some
2 special team of lawyers. So it is -- it has -- it is not originally from
3 regional centre Belgrade. It is done by -- on an investigation which has
4 been done on all territories mission was active. So it is what I do know
5 about this document, but we can check it thoroughly --
6 Q. Well, let me just stop you there for one moment. Does that
7 investigation include reliance on the various ECMM reports that you
8 prepared and that other teams prepared?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And based on your observation, just to come
11 back to my question, do you agree with that last paragraph? Is it true
12 that the JNA very closely co-operated with those reservists?
13 A. This is how I personally perceived that. This is written by
14 military persons who were in the mission as well present, so they have
15 better sense for that. But what I felt is reservists, they have
16 sometimes even tanks, T-34 from the World War II. It's not easy for
17 private person to have it, to support it with grenades and so on. So --
18 and I do believe that JNA was superior and -- on one hand. On the other
19 hand, in Yugoslavia everywhere there were some hands hidden and people
20 were angry. So local clashes are quite -- I don't want to dare to say
21 "normal," but it could happen. So local armed units can appear by the
22 way we have mentioned Berak, for instance, so the --
23 Q. Well, sir, we'll get to Berak.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. We'll get to Berak. But am I right in respect of Ilok that the
1 only institutional authority on the Serb side with whom you had contact
2 was the JNA?
3 A. No. On the road I have met or we have met -- on the road to Ilok
4 we have met with a group of volunteers what was very visible because of
5 different uniformed -- mixed uniforms and -- okay, we passed through.
6 Q. Well, when I say "institutional authority," I mean an authority
7 presenting itself as an organised institutional force purporting to
8 exercise jurisdiction over the area. And would you agree that that was,
9 in terms of who you had contact with, only the JNA on the Serb side?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about Vukovar, and if I
12 may, I would like to have you take a look at your notebook.
13 MR. GOSNELL: And, Mr. President, since I plan to refer to this
14 notebook quite a number of times, I would like -- I prepared copies for
15 the Judges.
16 Q. Now, sir, am I correct in understanding - and this appears to be
17 the case from your notebook - that on the 18th of November, your
18 itinerary was starting in Belgrade, passing through the Serbian town of
19 Adasevci, then going to Negoslavci, where you visited the OG South
20 headquarters of the JNA. And then you went, as I understand it, to
21 Vukovar insofar as you were able to visit it and you did go to the
22 Velepromet centre. Is that itinerary correct?
23 A. I believe so. If it is written there in this form, yes, it is.
24 What -- I remember that, yes, we have been in Negoslavci; yes, we have
25 been in Velepromet; and, yes, we have been in Vukovar, not in the
1 down-town but up on the hills, because there is a down-town of Vukovar
2 near the Danube which is down --
3 Q. And that's fine, thank you. I just wanted the general itinerary.
4 And do I understand correctly - and this is a question I think you can
5 answer yes or no - that your morning started with a briefing by
6 General Maksimovic of the JNA?
7 A. If it is written, then it is granted.
8 Q. Well, maybe you should -- do you have your notebook in front of
10 A. Yes, I do have this.
11 Q. Now, if we go over to page 3 of your handwritten version, which
12 is page 2 of the typewritten version - and I apologise for this - there's
13 a heading there and in the handwritten version it's very clear, you have
14 a big heading: "Veselin Sljivancanin."
15 A. Mm-hmm.
16 Q. Now, am I right in understanding that that page in the
17 handwritten version as well as the next, one, two, three pages, all that
18 information - and this is the pages 7761 to 7764 - all of that concerns
19 information that was given to you by Major Sljivancanin?
20 A. I don't think so, sir. I cannot guarantee that because the name
21 Major Sljivancanin is written there by the other hand -- it's typical
22 Serbian version of the handwriting. And probably he came here, sit to
23 the table, sat to the table, and I gave my notebook to somebody to write
24 who is coming. So this is the name, but definitely I cannot confirm who
25 is the main person for negotiation.
1 Q. Well, there's a notation on page 04687764 about Velepromet. Can
2 I just ask you, do you recall whether Major Sljivancanin was talking to
3 you about the Velepromet centre?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Was General Maksimovic talking to you about the Velepromet
7 A. Probably, yes, but I cannot -- I have no real memory about that.
8 But we were speaking about some civilians, that they were removed, and so
9 on, and so on. So probably some refugees were mentioned. We have
10 been -- we had been probably offered to go there, so they had to tell us
12 Q. Were you -- sorry. Were you accompanied by a JNA liaison officer
13 throughout this itinerary on the 18th of November as best you can recall?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you travelled from OG South headquarters in Negoslavci
16 to Velepromet, did you observe that the Velepromet facility was under JNA
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Did you meet someone there named Berisavljevic? It's not
20 mentioned in your notes.
21 A. Berisavljevic. No, I don't remember this.
22 Q. Do you remember meeting a general or speaking to a General
23 Jerko Crmenic?
24 A. I don't remember. Maybe the sense, yes, but not the names and --
25 Q. Do you remember anything about a 5.000th Engineering Unit? And
1 that again is not mentioned in your notes.
2 A. Yes, this was the -- our report afterwards, I believe 15 days
3 after fall of Vukovar. We were there and then we have been told that --
4 but I am not quite sure if it is exactly this, but I remember that we
5 were -- we were informed about the asanacion [phoen] of situation,
6 cleaning the city, burying some 100, we were invited to the cemetery and
7 so on. So it was general information what has been done during these
8 15 days or 14 days.
9 Q. And were you told that that had been done by this 5.000th
10 Engineering Unit?
11 A. I don't remember. I do remember that there is somewhere written
12 number 5.000, but I don't remember that exactly.
13 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 00604, please, which is Prosecution
14 tab 4.
15 Q. And this, sir, is the agreement for the evacuation of the Vukovar
16 Hospital and you've talked about it already. I just want you to have
17 sight, please, of paragraph 5 and it says:
18 "The evacuation will include all those wounded or sick undergoing
19 medical treatment in Vukovar Hospital who are judged by the authorities
20 of the hospital to be fit to make the journey."
21 Now, it's right that this doesn't in terms say that Croatian --
22 wounded Croatian soldiers are to be included in paragraph 5; is that
24 A. Sir, I am not a lawyer. As I do understand that it is for me, I
25 can see there the word "all," it means all, whoever it is, whatever rank
1 or civil or military.
2 Q. Well, I don't necessarily disagree with that interpretation, sir.
3 But what I am interested in is the army's interpretation.
4 MR. GOSNELL: And, if I may, let's please have 005 -- excuse me,
5 05560, Prosecution tab 32.
6 Q. Now, am I right, sir, that this is a note of a meeting by
7 Colonel Cunningham at 2.00 on the 19th of November, 1991, and this would
8 have been at the HQ JNA Negoslavci. And you appear to be present; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, it is written there that I was there, so definitely.
11 Q. Under point 1(a) it says:
12 "Whole city, including hospital, under JNA control. Hospital
13 management replaced by JNA military doctors and personnel."
14 Do you remember that you were informed of that during that
16 A. No, I don't remember that because there were some very different
17 information coming all the time. So I don't remember that.
18 Q. And if we go over to the next page, we have item 2 -- or, excuse
19 me, subparagraph (d) and this is what it says:
20 "Paragraph 5 of fax signed by Croat and JNA auth evoked much
21 discussion. Colonel Pavkovic stated that POW would not be allowed to
22 depart as:
23 "(1) the POW are under JNA control.
24 "(2) if he did, Serb irregulars/local citizens would attack the
1 "(3) the POW would be exchanged for JNA POW at some future time."
2 Now, I just want to ask you this precise question: Was
3 Colonel Pavkovic's view that paragraph 5 did not cover these Croatian
4 wounded soldiers?
5 A. I cannot say what was the view of Colonel Pavkovic. What I can
6 say that there was a disagreement between two sides. We were insisting
7 on all and both Cunningham and Dr. Schou and the other side insisted on
8 this -- what is written there. It has been repeated many times during
9 this discussion and this position didn't convert to some common
11 Q. Considering what you had observed or were observing in Vukovar in
12 terms of JNA forces, did you have any doubt that the JNA was perfectly
13 capable of providing security for a convoy to evacuate those individuals
14 from the hospital?
15 A. There happened once that one irregular came down to the hospital.
16 On our demand JNA reacted very quickly, removed him. And so it was the
17 only conflict and it was settled in -- very quickly, otherwise I -- JNA
18 in the time we have been there was superior.
19 Q. And you testified before the Mrksic Chamber when Pavkovic raised
20 this excuse or explanation as to why these wounded soldiers could not be
21 evacuated, namely, the threat from irregulars, you said: We strictly
22 denied it, and we said that we will risk it and we wished to have the
23 convoy as it is, so with all the people.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, I'm right in saying, surely, Mr. Ambassador, that you would
1 never have proposed that if you thought there was any genuine risk to
2 these people; is that right?
3 A. It was told by Cunningham, but we agreed all. For instance,
4 about superiority of JNA, there was a discussion indirectly speaking
5 about the convoy itself. Because there was written that there will be
6 one car of JNA in front and at the end there will be only ECMM mission
7 car and there will not be any guarding car inside of the convoy or at the
8 end of the convoy. This is what I know and this is even what is written
9 in some reports.
10 Q. Did you know that by this date, namely, the 19th of November,
11 1991, there already had been a large exchange of Croatian soldiers from
12 Mitnica without that exodus or those soldiers being molested in any way
13 by these irregular forces? Did you know that?
14 A. No, sir, in that time I had no -- I was really concentrated on
15 our task.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please go back to the notebook, and this
17 would be page 7 of the typewritten version. And, Your Honours, I started
18 writing in hand the page numbers --
19 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
20 MR. GOSNELL: -- and then I recognised that there was a page
21 number at the bottom of the page.
22 Q. Yes?
23 A. Excuse me. Now I remember that there was an attack on convoy,
24 but it has been convoy of refugees and it is described in one of reports,
25 not of my team, in the coverage of convoys from Vukovar. So there has
1 been some local attack, but not with weapons, if I do remember well.
2 Q. That was in Bosnia, wasn't it?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Now, if we go to page 7 of the typewritten version of your diary
5 or your notebook, and this is at 7773, you've got a heading there that
6 says: "Colonel Pavkovic." The notation appears to say "Negoslavci, the
7 20th of November," and it says:
8 "The wounded men of paramilitary formations should stay here.
9 That is definitely the solution with General Raseta."
10 Now, am I right in thinking that that is information or that is
11 the position being expressed to you by Colonel Pavkovic?
12 A. If it is written there, I don't remember that, but on the other
13 hand, I believe that we still insisted on the written text and if there
14 is a change --
15 Q. I fully understand that, but what I'm very interested in here is
16 on the 19th you're having a disagreement or an agreement with general --
17 A. And on the 18th as well.
18 Q. And on the 18th as well you're having an argument with
19 Colonel Pavkovic and here we are on the morning of the 20th --
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. -- the day of the evacuation itself and two days after you've
22 raised it for the first time. And here we appear to have
23 Colonel Pavkovic sticking to his position, namely, that the wounded
24 soldiers are not to be included in this evacuation. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So isn't it the case here that really the concern -- and I'm
2 asking for your observation about this. Is it your view that the JNA's
3 concern about a potential threat to the convoy from irregulars was
4 genuine or do you think they were using that as a pretext for their
5 primary position was that Article 5 -- paragraph 5 of the agreement
6 simply did not entitle these wounded soldiers to be evacuated?
7 A. I don't want to guess, so it's more about an analysis than about
8 a real situation. And I cannot confirm that, yes, it was our feeling in
9 this time, but it was not based on anything else than the feeling. On
10 the other hand, I don't think that there is zero risk during the
11 evacuation. There still was some danger, but it can be -- it can be
12 settled by the JNA only to giving more guarding cars into the convoy.
13 Q. In other words, it's a risk they could have eliminated; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 05113, please, which is Prosecution
17 tab 25.
18 Q. Now, sir, this is a special report by you, I believe, covering
19 the events of the 20th and the 21st of November in Vukovar.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you give there an itinerary or what you call a time schedule.
22 And as I read it, it seems that you -- according to this at least, you're
23 stuck for about two hours, between 8.45 in the morning and 10.45 in the
24 morning, somewhere in Vukovar, but before you're granted access to the
25 hospital; is that right?
1 A. Yes, it is. I already told that it is approximately.
2 Q. And the reason given to you by the JNA was that there was
3 demining going on; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now if we go to page 2 --
6 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.
8 MS. BIERSAY: Sorry, it should be -- it's an under seal document
9 and should not be broadcast.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
11 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you. I apologise for that.
12 Q. Now, if we go down to point (c) on page 2, we again have a
13 notation which I think means approximately two hours waiting in a centre
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do I understand that parenthesis to indicate that your -- and the
17 question mark to indicate skepticism on your part as to whether there
18 really was any demining going on?
19 A. Yes, because we saw that already some JNA cars went there. So I
20 believe that if there is no movement in the neighbourhood there is no so
21 much danger of mines. So it's better to evacuate people as soon as
22 possible. But it's a military decision. I am civilian.
23 Q. So do I understand your testimony that you saw JNA vehicles
24 heading along the route towards the Vukovar Hospital from where you were
25 being delayed?
1 A. No, I haven't seen that, but I was told that, yes, there are some
2 vehicles. And when we came there, there were some.
3 Q. Now, if we can look --
4 MR. GOSNELL: Please leave the document on the screen.
5 Q. But now if we could please look at your notebook.
6 MR. GOSNELL: And this is at page 8 of the typewritten version
7 for Your Honours and for the record it's 04687774.
8 Q. And, sir, perhaps you could just look at it on your binder -- in
9 your binder.
10 A. Yeah. Can you tell me the number?
11 Q. Yes. It is 04687774.
12 A. I have no such a numbering in my --
13 MS. BIERSAY: If I may assist. I believe it is -- did you say
15 MR. GOSNELL: Correct.
16 MS. BIERSAY: Page 16 in e-court, which -- and this is the
17 notebook, correct, is that what you're referring to?
18 MR. GOSNELL: The handwritten notebook.
19 MS. BIERSAY: At tab 34.
20 THE WITNESS: So page?
21 MS. BIERSAY: 16.
22 MR. GOSNELL: I thank my colleague.
23 Q. And the part that I'm interested in is:
24 "8.30 colonel spoke with the zone commander for exchange when it
25 comes to JNA road Nustar-Marinci is completely safe. He has no contact
1 with the opposite side. He did not notice any demining from cross-road
2 in direction of Nustar."
3 I just first of all want to ask you: Who is the zone -- do you
4 have any idea who the zone commander for exchange might be?
5 A. No, I have no idea.
6 Q. And was Colonel Cunningham looking out for demining because both
7 of you were skeptical or suspicious?
8 A. No, I don't think so. We were told: You mustn't go there, so we
9 have to -- it was strict, very strict, what we can do or what not. And
10 this is what you have mentioned on this page. So this is what we have
11 been told. It is nothing of our monitoring.
12 Q. Now, let's have a look at the document on the screen in front of
13 you, sir. And if we look there at the second paragraph down and it says
14 "briefing by 1," and from page 1 we know that 1 is Colonel Pavkovic, who
15 is noted as the deputy commander of OG south. And here is what the --
16 here is the information that he appears to be giving you and this is your
18 "The wounded members of Cro paramil forces must stay here (we've
19 been told later by patients that they have been captured and left the
20 hospital before our arr. As well as some people of former personnel
21 Dr. Bosanac ..."
22 So am I right in understanding that the sequence of events here
23 is that you arrive in the centre of Vukovar, you're held up for two hours
24 at this JNA check-point, and it's during those two hours that Croatian --
25 wounded Croatian soldiers are removed from the hospital?
1 A. I can't say it. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, is that what your notes are indicating?
3 A. This is what we have been told.
4 Q. Did the JNA ever give you any explanation about the removal of
5 those wounded soldiers during the time that you were delayed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ask them?
8 A. I don't remember. I believe so, but definitely about Dr. Bosanac
9 and Colonel Cunningham settled it.
10 Q. And am I right that the only institutional authority - and again
11 I use that word "institutional authority" - the only institutional
12 authority with whom you had contact in relation to the evacuation of the
13 Vukovar Hospital, whether it be the 18th, 19th, or 20th, was the JNA?
14 A. Yes, you are right.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 0 -- well, this is the notebook, but
16 now if we could bring it up on the page or on the screen.
17 Q. And this is page 9 of the typewritten version which is 04687778,
18 sir. It should be the document you've got open right there and if you
19 just move a few more pages along. It's 7778, if you can see --
20 A. Yes --
21 Q. -- that number?
22 A. -- I can see that.
23 Q. And the notation reads:
24 "Vukovar 11/12," but am I right in believing that it indeed would
25 be the 21st of November that you were making these notes?
1 A. I think that this is the visit afterwards, these 14 days later.
2 Q. So you don't think this is the 21st?
3 A. I don't think so because the 20th was the first convoy. The
4 second convoy, I was there in Vukovar only for few hours to load the
5 wounded people and then we went to Bosnia. So I had no time for that. I
6 believe that this date up on the page, 11th of December, is right.
7 Q. Well, it may not be a major issue, but let's see if there's a
8 reference in here that might help situate us as to the date. If you can
9 turn the page to 7779.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you'll see that there there's a reference to:
12 "Still we have small Ustasha groups in cellars."
13 Now, would you agree with me that it's not very likely that there
14 were still Ustasha groups in cellars on the 11th of December, but there
15 probably were still Ustasha groups in cellars on the 21st of November,
17 A. This is what I was writing there so this is what we were told.
18 Q. Here we see, whatever the date may be, a reference to
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojinovic Milorad comm. Vukovar. And when I say
20 "comm" I mean "comm." And then there's a list:
21 Help inhabitants, keeping order and peace, asanacion of area,
22 demining, cleaning MF, sanction.
23 Am I right --
24 A. Sanitation, sanitation.
25 Q. Am I right in understanding that those are the tasks that
1 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic indicated to you were being assumed by the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that includes keeping order and peace; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about Berak, please.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And helpfully, there is a reference to your visit there in your
9 notebook and this is on page 12 to 13 of the typewritten version. And
10 this is at 7785 of your handwritten version.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now, it says there:
13 Berak 13.12.91. KPT. Mirkovic Colonel Milenkovic changed the
14 structure of the HQ TD, which says Territorial Defence, better relations
15 with JNA.
16 Do I understand this notation to me that these -- well, first of
17 all, let me ask you: Are these JNA officers, Mirkovic and Milenkovic?
18 A. Yes, I believe so.
19 Q. And do I understand that what this notation is describing that
20 they, namely Mirkovic and Milenkovic, have changed the structure of the
21 TO HQ, whatever that might be, but that that's what they've done?
22 A. As I do remember, Territorial Defence was a standard part of
23 Yugoslav army, so, yes, there were some reservists but it was an organic
24 part. So these -- this captain and colonel were standard JNA officers.
25 Q. And they were exercising command authority over --
1 A. This is what we have been told.
2 Q. And were they the ones who told you that, Milinkovic and
3 Mirkovic, if you can recall? You may not be able to recall, but can you
4 recall that?
5 A. I am not able. Maybe they were presented by liaison officer
6 like -- I don't really remember.
7 Q. And then your next notation is:
8 "Chance to go to home or to choose the place to go. Safety
9 inhabitants is guaranteed. If we find guilty of some people they will be
10 judged by the law."
11 Do I understand that essentially they are describing their
12 policy --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- in respect of Croatian civilians who are still living in the
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 06110, which is Defence tab 69. And
18 I believe that this one is probably under seal and should not be
20 Q. Now, sir, I'm not saying that you've seen this report, but we see
21 up there in the top left-hand corner that it's dated the
22 26th of February, possibly 1992. And if we just go down to the very last
23 page, which is page 4, and the document, for the record, is to the
24 1st Motorised Corps command. And down at the end it says:
25 "Authorised by the commander Lieutenant-Colonel Petar Mirkovic."
1 Is there any possibility that this is the same individual whom
2 you refer to in your notes as Captain Mirkovic?
3 A. Sir, I cannot guess.
4 Q. Let's turn back, please, to page 2, and there is a reference here
5 to Berak and that's why I'm showing you this document. And in the
6 lead-up to that reference is as follows.
7 "What all local communes in the zone of responsibility of the
8 brigade have in common is that they are disturbed by the security and
9 political situation in Boksic village.
10 "The situation in Tompojevci village is somewhat less dramatic as
11 the local commune Executive Council has been organised as one organ,
12 which is in contradiction with the principles of organisation and
13 functioning of the authorities. In addition to this, a TO platoon could
14 not be formed as ordered and regulated by the 1st Motorised Corps command
15 strictly confidential number 397/II-2 of 16 February 1992 which was
16 reported by this command in a timely fashion as requested.
17 "In Sremski Cakovci (excluding Boksic village), the local commune
18 executive councils and the TO staff of the villages of Berak and
19 Miklusevci have split up their jurisdictions and duties which means that
20 the authorities are functioning ..."
21 Now, is this consistent with your understanding that the JNA is
22 taking control of organising or reorganising TO forces in this area?
23 A. As I told you what I do know is that Territorial Defence was a
24 part of these defence structures. On the other hand, in Yugoslavia it
25 was very connected or linked together, the leadership or crisis
1 leadership, let's say. So I have no idea about these responsibilities of
2 one or the other person. What I can say as an analysis that if
3 Supreme Command headquarters in Belgrade, they know what has happened in
4 Berak, that there is some isolation camp, they can settle the situation
5 before they permit us to go there. So if they allow that, I believe that
6 at least the headquarters they have no idea about this.
7 Q. But you can't exclude -- in fact, wouldn't it be highly -- hard
8 to understand that these senior JNA officials on the ground wouldn't be
9 aware of what you describe as a detention site containing 50 elderly
10 Croat civilians?
11 A. Yes, I was speaking about headquarters in Belgrade.
12 MR. GOSNELL: Can we go back, please, to your --
13 A. But, if you allow me, sir, these detainees were guarded by a
14 civilian person or volunteer of course with weapon but partly in civil
15 clothes. He was the young guy. I remember that my Dutch colleague
16 offered him a cigarette and he said: No, no, no, I cannot smoke because
17 my wife -- my mother prohibited it. So this is what I do remember as a
18 moment from -- he was guarding these people.
19 Q. Well, did you ever see TO soldiers who weren't wearing regular
21 A. Some of them, yes.
22 Q. Those were precisely the people who were under the command of the
23 JNA; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, sir, if I turn you to your notebook again in respect of
1 Berak - and we'll have to go back, please, on the screen to 05673 - and,
2 sir, for your reference again that's 7783.
3 MR. GOSNELL: For Your Honours, that's page 12 to 13 of the
4 typewritten version.
5 Q. Now, you've testified here today about a detention site
6 containing 50 --
7 A. Around.
8 Q. -- Croatian soldiers -- Croatian civilians between the ages of 55
9 and 88 years old, I believe.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Must have been quite a remarkable and disturbing sight?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. And can you explain why this is not mentioned in your notebook?
14 A. It was not necessary. I do remember it well and you can see
15 detailed I mentioned to you so ...
16 Q. But wouldn't this event been something that you should have
17 reported up the chain of your own reporting channels?
18 A. I don't have a copy. Probably there is some report in the
19 mission where Berak was covered on, but I have no copy of that. So these
20 are only my remarks, and I am not marking, I am not writing what I do
21 remember well. So I am writing more -- I have no time to write
22 everything, so ...
23 Q. Isn't it true that when we look at all of the reports that you
24 had anything to do with, that there's no or virtually no mention at all
25 of the district government in the area?
1 A. Yes, because we were in a contact with JNA and we were provided
2 by the JNA liaison officers interpreters.
3 Q. And there's no mention at all of any contact with Mr. Hadzic, is
5 A. I don't remember that. I do remember that once we were invited
6 for some discussion to Erdut, but then it has been -- or cancelled or
7 something like that. But I have no real memory about any contact in this
9 Q. As far as you're concerned at least in the area of OG South, the
10 areas that you were visiting, the district government had no presence at
11 all; isn't that right?
12 A. I can't say it 100 per cent. I'm not sure if in Velepromet there
13 were no some people from the municipality or from the civil part of civil
14 authorities. But I'm not denying, neither confirming. But we were
15 speaking there with people in civil clothes so it's obvious.
16 Q. During your testimony in Mrksic you said and you were asked:
17 "Well, let's see if we can try and remember where you are when
18 this was being said to you."
19 And I believe this is -- concerns the 19th of November in
20 Vukovar --
21 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, sorry. I would be assisted by a page
23 MR. GOSNELL: Page 6582 to 6583 of 05816.
24 Q. And the question -- well, let's go back, let's do both questions
25 that you were asked.
1 "Now, who was telling you that the volunteers would not allow the
2 convoy to pass through, and indeed if there was a single Croatian
3 soldier/Ustasha on it?
4 "A. I don't remember. It was somebody from JNA side."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. "Q. Well, let's see if we can try and remember where you are
7 when this was being said to you. Now, who was telling you this? Was it
8 military or was it civilian?
9 "Answer" -- and this is your answer:
10 "No, military. They were on the other side from the side of JNA,
11 there were only -- only military persons. I don't remember that there
12 are some civilians."
13 A. Yes, it was about negotiation in Negoslavci. What I am
14 mentioning now, that there is only a slight possibility that in the
15 Velepromet we were speaking with people in civil clothes. I cannot say
16 more. I do remember that.
17 Q. But you can't confirm whether any of these people had anything to
18 do with the district government of the SBWS?
19 A. No, no. No idea. No idea and no remarks in my textbook.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador, for your answers.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, thank you, those are my questions.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 Ms. Biersay, do you have questions for re-direct?
24 MS. BIERSAY: I do not, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: You do not.
1 Mr. Ambassador, this brings your testimony to an end. We thank
2 you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal. You're now
3 released as a witness. The court usher will escort you out of court and
4 we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you very much.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
8 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, Mr. President, I believe I neglected to
9 tender 65 ter 06110 which I would propose now to tender, if I may. It's
10 Defence tab 69.
11 MS. BIERSAY: No objections, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned D36, admitted under seal, if
14 I'm correct.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Yeah, that's correct. Thank you.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
17 Anything else?
18 MS. BIERSAY: Not on my behalf, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we adjourn for the week --
20 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the record one correction. It should be
21 admitted as D37, not 36. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 So we adjourn for the week and we resume on Monday morning at
24 9.00 -- no, on Tuesday morning, 9.00. Court adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.13 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of
2 May, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.