1 Tuesday, 14 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 Douglas Stringer, Alex Demirdjian, Thomas Laugel, and Lucia Laporte for
15 the Prosecution.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
21 The witness may be brought in.
22 And just to be sure that it is on the record, we will not sit on
23 the 27th of May. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Theunens.
2 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's see whether we can finish your testimony in
4 this first session.
5 Mr. Gosnell.
6 MR. GOSNELL: I certainly think we can do that Mr. President.
7 Thank you. Good morning.
8 WITNESS: REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Theunens.
11 A. Good morning, Mr. Gosnell.
12 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 6122 back up on the screen, please,
13 which is the document we were looking at when we finished yesterday.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Theunens, you remember that one of the first questions I
15 asked you at the beginning of this cross-examination was whether
16 inspection is an indication of authority. And you said, well, it depends
17 on the context and please show me the context and the documents. And
18 here we have a document and a context. Do you think in this context that
19 inspecting these local TOs staffs, local communes, police stations, is
20 that an indication of authority?
21 A. Your Honours, yes, indeed. Looking at the document and paragraph
22 1 as to who will conduct those inspections, I agree with Mr. Gosnell's
24 MR. GOSNELL: If we could go please to the bottom of the page 4
25 in the English. Item 7. Yes, there it is.
1 Q. And what we see in item 7 is some support for your review about
2 the advisory function. It says the town command officers be included as
3 groups of advisors to the executive council of the municipality where the
4 town command is, et cetera. And then if we turn the page, item 8:
5 "This order shall be realised quickly and efficiently by strictly
6 adhering to the deadlines as this is a precondition for the territory of
7 the SO to be organised satisfactorily for the arrival of UN peacekeeping
9 "The civilian affairs organs, town commands, and municipal
10 executive councils are responsible for the accurate and timely execution
11 of this order."
12 Now do you see here, Mr. Theunens, that what's happening is that
13 an order is being issued by this JNA commander not only to elements of
14 the JNA but to the municipal executive councils?
15 A. Your Honour, could I -- I mean, the -- see the list -- list of
16 addressees, maybe I mentioned at the beginning of the document or maybe
17 at the end. I can only see half of a page on this screen, so ... because
18 that could be of assistance.
19 Q. There are no addressees indicated on the document.
20 A. Well, then, I mean, this would be the -- if I would agree with
21 you, it would be the first time that I see a JNA document where a JNA
22 officer is ordering municipal authorities. The proposition you make I
23 would not agree with you. I would also like to emphasise it's not quote
24 unquote my view, but it's just -- it's sufficient to read the various
25 instructions from the SSNO and the 1st Military District from November
1 and December 1991 in order to really establish that the JNA from the 20th
2 of November onwards only has a supporting role in relation to civilian
3 authority and their establishment -- and its establishment, I'm sorry.
4 That -- yeah, that the JNA has only a supporting role in relation to
5 civilian authority and its establishment.
6 Q. Could we have 6172, please. Prosecution tab 650.
7 This is from Major-General Mico Delic commander of the
8 1st Mechanized Corps. It's dated either the 1st or the 3rd of April,
9 1992. It's addressed to the commands of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 453rd,
10 Mechanized Brigade and the 252nd Armoured Brigade, and the town command
11 of Ilok and Mirkovci.
12 "Although this command, and particularly its organ for civil
13 affairs, pointed out a number of times and issued written orders
14 regulating the procedure of how the unit commands and town commands are
15 to deal with found and abandoned state and private property and
16 facilities. There have been instances of omissions and weaknesses and
17 for this reason we once again point out the following ..."
18 "Commissions should be formed with the local civilian
19 authorities to inventory and seal it; use of found appropriate and
20 facilities is within the purview of the local civilian authorities which
21 must regulate their distribution and the right to use by other persons
22 with a decision, record, and other written documents in close
23 co-operation with the town commands."
24 "Unit and town commands and particularly the organs for civilian
25 affairs and its officers must monitor the work of the local civilian
1 authorities, offering advice and guidance in the matter in order to adopt
2 the right decisions which would benefit the local inhabitants."
3 Does that appear to you to reflect purely an advisory function?
4 A. Advisory and assisting function.
5 Q. You wouldn't infer any sense of control, authority, direction in
6 respect of those activities?
7 A. I think we should make a distinction. This order is sent to a
8 number of JNA units and more specifically the organs within these JNA
9 units that constitute town commands. In relation to them, yes, there are
10 strict instructions. But overall, when it comes to the subject matter of
11 dealing with abandoned property - and there the trial can see the other
12 paragraphs of the document, for example paragraph 3 and 4 - again, it --
13 it is consistent with the earlier instructions and orders I have
14 mentioned already a few times during the past days concerning the role of
15 the JNA and its support to the local SAO SBWS civilian authorities.
16 MR. GOSNELL: We tender this document, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit D54. Thank you.
19 MR. GOSNELL: 6165, please. Prosecution tab 645.
20 Q. This is from the Command -- commander of the 252nd Armoured
21 Brigade, a certain Jovan Vuckovic. Report on the selection and
22 appointment of officers to command duties in police organs.
23 Jovan Stevic, son of Aleksandar, lieutenant-colonel in the armoured
24 mechanized unit, et cetera, has expressed a wish to be appointed Chief of
25 Staff of the Vukovar police brigade with the establishment rank of
1 lieutenant-colonel." He is now temporarily working in the 252nd Armoured
3 What is this about and what units are being referred to?
4 A. Well, Your Honours, this is what we saw in the examination; that
5 is, in spring 1992 prior to the arrival of UN peacekeeping troops in --
6 in the UNPAs, so the United Nations Protected Areas as defined by the
7 Vance Plan, the SSNO issues instructions to establish an RSK TO, i.e., to
8 restructure existing units and so on, but to come to a more uniform and
9 organised structure, and it includes also a support, I think even similar
10 support, in relation to an RSK MUP, i.e., police, and for what Slavonia,
11 Baranja, and Western Srem is concerned this also includes the transfer of
12 JNA personnel to the -- to the RSK and in this case SBWS MUP.
13 Q. And what role do you say the JNA has in the appointments?
14 A. Your Honours, we have seen documents that they appoint people but
15 at this moment I'm not sure -- I mean, if you can show me the document
16 again. I'm sorry to repeat this. This is all from the new -- I think
17 this is part of the new report and there, if I had the new report in
18 front of me, I could point you to other documents. Now I just have to
19 look at each document separately and try to recall which document I saw
20 in which trial which over a time-period of nine years is a bit of a
21 challenge. But what I'm trying to say is that I have seen documents that
22 the JNA is appointing personnel to the RSK TO. At this moment, I don't
23 recall whether the JNA or the SSNO is also appointing personnel to the
24 RSK MUP. In this document here, there is just an expression of interest
25 of a JNA member to become a member of the RSK MUP.
1 Q. And you remember that there's still an imminent threat of war in
2 effect in the SFRY as of this date; correct?
3 A. If you say so, you know, I recall a decision --
4 Q. Well, I do say so and maybe I can just -- [Overlapping
5 speakers] ...
6 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... if I can answer the question that was.
7 Your Honours, I remember that a decision is adopted at one moment
8 in time, I think it's later in 1992, to retract this imminent state of
9 war. Now, none of the documents we have seen so far, none of the SSNO
10 documents I have seen and we have discussed makes a reference to this
11 decision or to this state of imminent threat of war, so I'm not sure to
12 what extent it was really determining the events. We are looking at a
13 very de facto situation where - and again, this is something I mentioned
14 over the past days, but I think it's important to clarify it again -
15 where existing laws are being bent and adjusted in order to implement
16 certain measures and where bodies that are not foreseen in SFRY
17 legislation as SAOs and their civilian authorities and their own TO
18 legalized and -- and -- and again, so for me the determining factor is
19 not whether or not a state of imminent threat of war was really into
20 effect at that moment in time.
21 Q. We may have lost the LiveNote, Mr. President. At least as it
22 comes through the computers. If Your Honours are all right, we can
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
25 THE WITNESS: I'm fine, too.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We have it on one screen and on the other
3 screen, that's the screen that you can mark, where you can mark the
4 transcript. So we have no problem for the moment. If you don't, we can
6 MR. GOSNELL: I can proceed, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Please do.
8 MR. GOSNELL: We would tender that document, please.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Correct, Your Honours. This one has already been
11 admitted and marked as P1697. Thank you.
12 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have P1704, please, which is Prosecution
13 tab 661.
14 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
15 MR. GOSNELL:
16 Q. This is -- [Microphone not activated].
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. GOSNELL:
19 Q. This is from the civilian affairs organ of the -- well, it
20 doesn't say which unit. But they are reporting to the command of the
21 1st Mechanized Corps and they're reporting on the state of the police in
22 Mirkovci village. So again this is the same village we've been talking
23 about. It says:
24 "Pursuant to the work-plan of organs for civilian affairs of the
25 1st Mechanized Corps command an inspection and review of the state of the
1 Mirkovci police station was carried out on 15 May [sic] 1992 ..."
2 Then there is a discussion of the condition of the police
3 station. And if we could go to page 2 at the bottom we see some
4 conclusions. And the conclusion is:
5 "In terms of personnel and expertise, the police station can
6 carry out its functional duties following the withdrawal of the JNA from
7 this area, but the question of supplying the peacetime force with
8 weapons, uniforms, communications equipment, meals, and fuel needs to be
9 resolved. The personnel allocated on a temporary basis from the Serbian
10 MUP are expressing dissatisfaction with the whole system of organisation
11 of the police in Krajina and have therefore filed a request for their
12 withdrawal, which would severely undermine the police station's system of
14 So am I right that and do you know from other documents that the
15 Serbian MUP was still involved in setting up or shoring up police
16 stations in this area around let's say into May 1992?
17 A. Your Honours, I think we also addressed that during examination,
18 that is, that as is indicated in the documents up -- at least up to the
19 deployment of UN forces in the area, there was a presence of members of
20 the MUP of the Republic of Serbia in SBWS, and from my activities outside
21 ICTY, and more specifically when I was serving in peacekeeping
22 operations, in -- in the Balkans, we understood - when I say "we" that
23 was UNPROFOR - that there was still, I mean, even up to 1995, a presence
24 of members of the MUP Serbia in SBWS including as members of the local
25 Serb police.
1 Q. I appreciate your reference to your own UNPROFOR experience, and
2 I'd ask you to draw on that with my next question.
3 When you read that final conclusion, would you agree that it
4 seems that the JNA is scrutinising whether conditions are ripe for a
5 hand-over to the UNPROFOR forces? Is that the point?
6 A. Maybe it's -- it's a question of language. I mean, English is
7 not my first language, but I would word it slightly different because
8 it's not so much -- I mean, the hand-over to the UN is -- is not
9 something to decide -- or not part of the Vance Plan, I'm sorry. The
10 Vance Plan foresees demilitarisation, demobilization, and disbanding of
11 local armed structures, as well as withdrawal of the JNA and the ZNG.
12 That's one aspect of the Vance Plan. A second aspect is the deployment
13 of a lightly armed UN force. But there is no formal hand-over foreseen
14 in the Vance plan between the JNA and UNPROFOR.
15 Q. The SFRY is a party to the Vance agreement and the JNA is an
16 organ of the SFRY, so what I'm asking is do you think that what's going
17 on here is pursuant to perceived obligations by the JNA vis-a-vis the
18 Vance Plan?
19 A. What we can say is that the SFRY -- that excuse me. The SFRY
20 political authorities are concerned about the situation in -- in -- in
21 the -- in the territory covered by the RSK. And in relation then to the
22 specific paragraph, yeah, they want to know what is the -- the state
23 of -- of -- of functioning or the state of readiness is of the RSK police
24 because according to the Vance Plan this is the only armed structure the
25 Serbs are allowed to maintain in the UNPAS.
1 Q. Is it the JNA's obligation as an organ of the SFRY to ensure that
2 those conditions are fulfilled?
3 A. Again, I'm reluctant to use the word or the expression
4 "obligation" because I have seen orders, and as I mentioned earlier to
5 the JNA, to provide support to assisting in -- in -- in organising the
6 RSK TO even if it's not allowed anymore according to the Vance Plan, but
7 I haven't seen a document or I don't recall seeing a document that the
8 JNA is -- is obliged or is ordered by the SFRY political authorities to
9 ensure the -- the -- the complete state of readiness or the highest state
10 of readiness of the RSK police.
11 Q. You testified at page 4309:
12 "It was well-known that there were disputes or, in particular,
13 among the JNA, about the nature of the conflict, whether it was an
14 international or an internal armed conflict."
15 Can you tell us who thought it was an international armed
17 A. I'm not -- we would have to look at the 27th of
18 November memorandum, that is, I think we discussed it during examination.
19 That is this agreed between JNA or SFRY armed forces, the Croatian side,
20 I think there were people there from the ZNG --
21 Q. Let's bring that up for your benefit, Mr. Theunens, just before
22 you continue with your answer. It could assist you in your answer, sir.
23 A. Yeah.
24 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 00722, which is I believe Prosecution
25 tab 211.
1 Q. So there it is. I don't know if there's a particular page you'd
2 like to look at, sir.
3 A. I mean, I don't know by heart in which page this is being
4 discussed, but what I was trying to say that is that then there is a
5 reply to that, and this is in the amalgamated report, where I think the
6 member of the legal administration in the SFRY armed forces state, well,
7 irrespective of this and this and this, i.e., the memorandum, we consider
8 the conflict still an internal conflict. My reference to what I called
9 dispute or -- yeah, dispute concerning the nature of the conflict, I also
10 remember from my - and this is not from documents but from my
11 participation in witness interviews, and these witnesses were senior JNA
12 officers, that some of them stated, for example, that only after
13 October 1991, i.e., when the moratorium imposed by the European community
14 at that time on Croatia's declaration of independence of -- of 25th of
15 June 1991, when that moratorium had expired, that then, well, okay, at
16 that -- only at that moment the conflict transformed into an
17 international armed conflict.
18 You will see that in none of my reports in all those years I have
19 dealt with the question of whether it was an international or a -- or not
20 an international armed conflict because this is really outside my
21 expertise. When answering the question, I only tried to provide
22 information I had come across while working here and while reviewing
23 documents, without issuing any -- any opinion or any analysis to that.
24 Q. Does it follow from the fact that certain JNA officers considered
25 this to be an international armed conflict, as you say, that they
1 considered the SBWS region to be occupied territory?
2 A. I -- I cannot answer that question, Your Honours, because it's --
3 it's too -- I mean, first of all, it's too broad, and secondly I didn't
4 go into, I mean, when participating with these -- participating in
5 witness interviews for senior JNA officers, I didn't go into discussion
6 of whether it was national or international conflict because, again,
7 it's -- for me it's a legal issue that is outside the scope of my
8 professional activities.
9 Q. Well, you've talked about the JNA's understanding of
10 international criminal law and how that's incorporated into SFRY
11 legislation. That appears to be within what you consider the scope of
12 your report. You can't tell us whether under SFRY law if a conflict is
13 considered international, that the territory occupied in the other state
14 is considered occupied territory when the JNA is present there?
15 A. Your Honours, I -- I think I answered the question. I can -- I
16 can repeat what I consider most relevant elements of my answer.
17 That is, that I haven't seen any -- except for the comment by the
18 legal administration on this memorandum, I haven't seen any JNA documents
19 indicating that it's -- whether it's an internal or an international
20 conflict. I don't remember seeing in the various reports and orders at
21 the various levels of command SFRY armed forces, the military districts,
22 operation groups, or tactical groups any change in approach between let's
23 say the period prior to October 1991 and after October 1991, so there's
24 not much more -- not much -- anything else relevant I can say to this --
25 to your question.
1 Q. I suppose that also means that you can't tell us anything about
2 whether or not the JNA considered itself bound by any specific or
3 particular obligations based on that view that it was an international
4 armed conflict and according to me that that was occupied territory?
5 A. Mr. Gosnell, I -- I mean, I don't dispute your view because I
6 have nothing relevant to say about it for the Trial Chamber. I think
7 there are other witnesses who are better qualified to that. I mean, your
8 view on occupied territory, but the JNA did not consider itself bound. I
9 mean, please have a look at the instructions by Kadijevic, Adzic, Panic,
10 I mean, and the other generals in relation to the obligation of the JNA
11 and its subordinate forces at all times to abide by the international
12 laws of war. Maybe they don't specifically refer to the internationals
13 laws of war as a concept, but we have the 1988 regulations which were
14 valid during the conflict. We have also the various orders and
15 instructions where they talk about the need for proper treatment of the
16 civilian population, prisoners, prevent looting, and so on and so on. So
17 the JNA was aware of -- of these obligations.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have P171, please, Prosecution tab 596.
19 Q. Sir, you've looked at this document during your direct
21 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar, for that.
22 Q. And I've noticed that you're very good on occasion at noticing
23 translation mistakes.
24 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "on occasion."
25 Q. Well, I mean, sometimes I've notice that you catch translation
1 mistakes, and I'm going to direct your -- so what I'm saying is that I
2 know that you have some facility in B/C/S; is that right?
3 A. I mean, after eight years I think it's reasonable to expect that
4 one would be able to -- to understand a little bit of or at least some --
5 a little bit, yeah, sorry, of military terminology.
6 Q. Now, if we can look at the second paragraph and if you could
7 focus your attention on the B/C/S second paragraph, can you tell us
8 whether it says that the Serbian region of Baranja, East Slavonia, and
9 west Srem will be represented by the prime minister?
10 A. No, I can't. I mean, I see -- I see President Zunik Vlade and
11 ministry and so on, but, I mean, which are not so difficult to understand
12 those expressions, but I wouldn't be able to find a verb or to -- to --
13 to establish from the B/C/S what their role would be.
14 MR. GOSNELL: Could with we have the interpreters, please, read
15 the words following on from where it says "while the Serbian region."
16 I'm not sure if they have the document in front of them, the
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you give us a more precise reference on
19 the screen.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Yes. It's the second paragraph of the document.
21 And it's the words following from: "... while the Serbian region ..."
22 Perhaps --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The representative of the government. A
24 representative of the government, ministers of the interior, and national
25 defence, and the commander of the TO staff.
1 MR. GOSNELL:
2 Q. Mr. Theunens, did you hear the translation?
3 A. I think I missed the first part because I just heard the name of
4 individuals or functions, but not more.
5 Q. The interpreter translated it as a representative of the
7 THE INTERPRETER: One letter, the letter A, is missing in the
8 word representative, "Predstvnik," the letter A is missing. It's just a
10 MR. GOSNELL:
11 Q. So there appears to be a typographical error but the word is
12 nevertheless representative, aside from that typographical error.
13 A. I understand, Your Honours. I see that there is -- I mean,
14 whereas the English text refers to prime minister. Given -- based on the
15 translation we hear now, it -- in fact it should be somebody else. If I
16 understood -- yeah, I think that is the point you wish to make, but I
17 guess -- I mean, it's easy to establish. You don't need me for that.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have P17 --
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, is this as far as you go with this
20 translation error or will you tender a revised translation.
21 MR. GOSNELL: I'm not sure what the right procedure is but we
22 would make a request to CLSS for a revised translation.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think that would be appropriate, yes, indeed.
24 MR. GOSNELL: Apparently a request has already been made,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
2 MR. GOSNELL: P1710, please. Prosecution tab 586.
3 Q. Now, sir, this is -- as it's coming up on the screen, it's a
4 report by Milos Miljevic, the assistant commander for civil affairs.
5 He's a colonel in the 1st Proletarian Mechanised Division, and he's
6 reporting on the government session as it says in the subject line, and
7 just to contextualise this document, sir, you might remember that this --
8 this follows the exchange of letters between Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Belic,
9 Colonel Belic in Ilok. And there -- so this appears to be some kind of a
10 follow-up. Well, it may not be. We don't know. But in any event,
11 that's what it might be.
12 A. Yeah --
13 Q. And if we -- sorry, sir, did you want to say something?
14 A. Yeah. I mean, I think you answered the question yourself. I
15 understand that -- I mean, there's the exchange of letters of the 23rd of
16 December, 25th of December, and this is happening on the 31st of
17 December. Whether there's any link between the two, I cannot establish.
18 Certainly not when just seeing document by document on the screen. But I
19 think you answered that yourself, that we don't know.
20 Q. I appreciate that. Thank you. Now if we could go to page 2,
21 please. And you commented on this document during your direct
23 What we see -- the words that we see reported there as having
24 been uttered by the person identified as the deputy prime minister,
25 namely Bogunovic, the words that are reported as being uttered are:
1 "We do not know what our goals are. We want the structure here
2 to change. Some people do not understand military administration well."
3 Now, just looking at those words before we go on to the
4 interpretation given by the officer here, those words don't in any way
5 condone or indicate that the policy of the government of the SBWS is
6 ethnic cleansing, do they?
7 A. No. But I think the military -- I mean, the drafter of the
8 report doesn't use the expression "ethnic cleansing." He talks about to
9 change the structure of the population. He adds "at all costs," whereas
10 the deputy prime minister talks about "we want the structure here to
11 change." I can only rely on the conclusion of the drafter of the
12 document that the deputy prime minister, when using the expression
13 "structure," actually means the structure of the population. When I say
14 I can only rely on the views expressed by the drafter, then I -- of the
15 document, then I will also look at other documents, and then I see that
16 actually this -- this conclusion by the drafter of the document is
17 supported by the developments on the ground during that time-period.
18 Q. Well, developments on the ground doesn't mean it's government
19 policy, does it?
20 A. Well, we would have to look at the documents. And again, I'm
21 sorry to repeat it, but in the -- in the report I compiled in September,
22 I -- I put all the documents that were available to me and my conclusion
23 was that there was a pattern whereby the government at least condones,
24 i.e., doesn't prevent, and according to JNA officers, some members or
25 people affiliated with the SAO SBWS government actually actively
1 participate in changing the ethnic structure of the population during
2 that time-period.
3 And just to finish it, I don't think we have discussed these --
4 these reports, but the reports of the UN Secretary-General on the
5 implementation of the mandate date of the UN peacekeeping forces in
6 Croatia during 1992, I quote from a number of them, indicate or actually
7 confirm that this harassment and other pressure on members of minorities
8 is continuing throughout 1992 and even later.
9 Q. Yet none of the documents at all show that anyone in the district
10 government is in any way active - as you just said now - none of the
11 documents show that anyone from the district government is involved in
12 events of ethnic cleansing or putting pressure on Croats to leave.
13 Unless you take for -- as true the allegation that Devetak is somehow a
14 part of the district government, which we say he certainly isn't.
15 A. I mean, that's your view. You know, I would -- maybe the
16 Prosecution is going to bring up these documents again, but I don't know
17 by heart all the documents I have included in the new report so I can't
18 answer your question.
19 Q. But just coming back to the words that are reported as having
20 been said by Bogunovic. When he says we want the structure here to
21 change, and then that's immediately followed by a reference to some
22 people do not understand military administration well, doesn't it seem to
23 that you the structure that's being complained about or that needs to be
24 changed has to do with martial law in this area, which is basically what
25 I say we have?
1 A. Your Honours, yeah, I remember you referred in the previous days
2 that there was military rule, and I remember in the reply Colonel, I
3 think, Begic sends to General Hadzic on the 25th December 1991, he puts
4 military rule between quotation marks or he express some doubts about the
5 use of the expression "military rule" in reply to the letter of Hadzic of
6 the 23rd of December, 1991, now use martial law. I don't remember that
7 martial law was in effect in SBWS at that moment. Again, show me a
9 Q. Well, it's the imminent -- it's the declaration of the imminent
10 threat of war of the 1st of October, 1991, which is still in effect into
11 May, I say. But I really don't want to get bogged down in that detail.
12 What I'm going to now do is just proceed to the next couple of
13 sentences in this report because I think they're quite vital to
14 understanding what really is being expressed here. And what it says, and
15 I suggest that you've misread this, Mr. Theunens, just to be clear. What
16 it says is:
17 "These quotes illustrate that the government wants to change the
18 structure of the population at all costs. Even by pushing them under the
19 impact of artillery in the zone of intense combat activities, 'while we
20 do not know what our goal is,' can mean that 'why doesn't that army free
21 the whole of Slavonia and hand us over the authority on a plate?'
22 "His support of immigration, even in the zone of intense combat
23 activities did not cease even after the warning by a representative of
24 the Division Command that we did not recommend populating refugees to the
25 west of Tovarnik to spare them from experiencing exodus twice."
1 Now let's just understand where Tovarnik is. Isn't it right that
2 Tovarnik is a village that's close to the confrontation line with
3 Croatian forces? In fact, it's the western limit, if I can just remind
4 you, of the southern area, if you recall.
5 A. Yes. It's the south western limit, and I think it's close to the
6 highway -- I mean, where the highway cuts or crosses through Western
7 Srem. It's on the western -- south-western limit of the -- of the
8 confrontation line as it is in that time-period.
9 Q. And if you look at the passage that I just read, you see two
10 references to intense combat activities, and I suggest that that shows
11 that these two concepts are linked and that what this colonel is
12 complaining about is not that the district authorities are talking about
13 forcing Croats out of the area. He's talking about forcing the Slavonian
14 refugees to move into areas that the army considers unstable. Isn't that
15 what's being talked about here in terms of changing the structure of the
17 A. I would agree with you if there wasn't the word "even" in the
18 fourth line, or -- sorry, near the fourth line of that paragraph, because
19 for sure he is talking about immigration, i.e., the resettlement of
20 Serbian refugees from other areas. Resettlement in Eastern Slavonia,
21 Baranja, and Western Srem. But I don't think it's -- it's -- he is
22 exclusively talking about that.
23 Q. Why does the word "even" change that? Here we have the person
24 expressing alarm or he is disconcerted and that's why he uses the word
25 "even" because he is suggesting that the district government is pushing
1 people into these areas even though they're unstable. There is artillery
2 being fired there. Isn't that why he is using the word "even"?
3 A. For me, the -- the use of the expression "even" means that there
4 are -- the population structure is also changed in other matters --
5 manners, sorry, in other ways. And that -- I mean, the most serious --
6 or the most negative, ways, I'm sorry, of changing the population is by
7 pushing them under the impact of artillery according to the author of the
9 Q. Aside from this document and the previous document, have you seen
10 any indications that there were any contacts between the JNA and the
11 district government of the SBWS from August 1991 until May 1992?
12 A. I wouldn't be able to answer the question, Your Honours, because
13 I don't have the documents in front of me. I mean, all these questions
14 you are asking are referring to documents that were made available after
15 the expiration of the deadline for the submission of the amalgamated
16 report. In the amalgamated report, I think there are very few documents
17 we never -- I mean, my view is that because never obtained such documents
18 from -- from FRY or Serbia.
19 Q. Sir, you said you are not a political analyst and you have said
20 that commenting on the legal implications of the Law on All People's --
21 excuse me, on the legal implications of a declaration of imminent state
22 of war are beyond your expertise, and yet you have quite comfortably,
23 based on your review of RSK legislation, come to the conclusion - which I
24 suggest is a quasi-legal conclusion - that Mr. Hadzic as president or as
25 prime minister of the RSK becomes Commander-in-Chief of the RSK armed
2 How is it, considering that you don't speak B/C/S, you claim
3 you're not an expert in legal matters, and you don't know the political
4 background that might assist in understanding the Law on Defence that was
5 passed, how is it that you are able to come to the conclusion that the
6 provisions in that law mean that Mr. Hadzic is the Commander-in-Chief?
7 A. Could you please show me the passage in my report where I use the
8 expression "Commander-in-Chief" because I don't recall that. I usually
9 use the expression or the language used in the documents and there it's
10 "Supreme Commander."
11 Q. I'll correct myself. You did use the words "Supreme Commander"
12 and it was during your testimony here.
13 A. Well, then I would -- I think it would help to have the law in
14 front of us, and then if it says that the president of the republic is --
15 commands the armed forces in those and those conditions or is the
16 Supreme Commander, I don't think one needs to be a legal expert to
17 understand that.
18 Q. If you could go to page 370 of your report, sir, and while we're
19 doing that if we could also bring up L46, please, which is somewhere on
20 the Prosecution's list. And if we could go to page 3 of L46, which is
21 Article 6.
22 A. Yeah, what I was trying to say is that when you look at the
23 article, Article 6 of the 1992 RSK Law on Defence, it states: The
24 president of the republic leads, I mean title 1, leads the armed forces
25 in the peacetimes and in times of war.
1 I don't think it -- it requires a legal expertise to understand
2 what the role of the president then is in relation to the armed forces.
3 I think it's also -- should also be clear that, for example -- I mean, in
4 any country an officer pleads allegiance to the constitution and the laws
5 of his war. I did the same in Belgium in 1984, if I remember well.
6 Well, it wouldn't make much sense to plead allegiance to something that I
7 don't understand as a military officer, so I would be confident that
8 officers serving in the SVK or prior to that the RSK TO understood what
9 was meant by, for example, this first sentence of Article 6 without
10 having a degree in law or other legal expertise.
11 Q. Is the prime minister in a parliamentary system with cabinet
12 responsibility the Supreme Commander of the forces in that country?
13 A. Your Honour, I would have to look at the specific document
14 because each country may have its own definition and its own provisions
15 as to who is the Supreme Commander.
16 Q. So you allow that that might not be the case, that the person who
17 is the prime minister is not necessarily the Supreme Commander of the
18 armed forces?
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I think this is a fair question to
20 the witness, to be urged to answer questions about other systems he
21 didn't -- he didn't examine?
22 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I'm -- I'm attempting to explore the concept
23 as to whether the person who is identified as the senior political
24 figure, in quotation marks, must of necessity be the Supreme Commander,
25 and that was a concept that was relied on by Mr. Theunens in his direct
1 testimony when he said that Mr. Hadzic must be the Supreme Commander
2 because he was the leading political figure.
3 So it's the concept that I'm attempting to explore. I don't -- I
4 don't know what was the basis, Mr. President, for him saying that at this
6 THE WITNESS: I mean, please show me the -- please show me the
7 transcript, then, because also I -- I think I don't use expressions like
8 "leading political figure" because I -- I -- what I do when review the
9 documents is I try as much as possible to use the language or to refer to
10 the language used in the document, because I'm not going to give my
11 personal interpretation of that. It wouldn't add anything. The language
12 is pretty clear.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Theunens, for the moment your answer is based
14 on the text of that law, right.
15 THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: So, Mr. Gosnell, if there is an inconsistency in
17 the witness's answer, please direct us to the transcript.
18 MR. GOSNELL: I'm afraid I don't have the reference at my
19 fingertips, Mr. President, so I'll move on.
20 Q. But I will ask, Mr. Theunens, if you look at the screen and if
21 you compare the translation on the screen as compared to the translation
22 that you have in your report, you'll see that there's a slight
23 difference. The president of the republic in your report leads the armed
24 forces in peacetime and times of war. In the translation in front of us
25 it says the president of the republic shall head the armed forces in
1 peacetime and war.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that there are some nuances of
4 language in respect of determining whether or not someone is a
5 Supreme Commander that you may not fully appreciate. Let's just put it
6 like that.
7 A. Could we go to the top of the document, please.
8 Just the top. I just want to see the ERN. I would like to see
9 the ERN reference.
10 Yeah, I understand. I mean, I used the same reference because
11 what happens sometimes in the OTP is that different documents exist
12 several times in the system and they are translated several times but as
13 an analyst I don't necessarily know that. And here I do note that indeed
14 the language is slightly different. For me, it doesn't make a meaning
15 any different because imagine that Mr. Gosnell was right, then again I
16 would like in the Law on Defence or I would like at the Law on Defence in
17 order to find another article that would identify then who is the
18 Supreme Commander, i.e., who is the most senior political authority to
19 lead the armed forces.
20 In the absence of another article, I think that Article 6 is
21 still valid. And again from looking at the documents and also the -- for
22 example the letter by General Wahlgren, Force Commander of UNPROFOR, to
23 Mr. Hadzic at a later stage complaining about the shelling of civilian
24 locations, is addressed to Mr. Hadzic by Mr. Wahlgren because he
25 considers, I mean Wahlgren considers, Hadzic the supreme or the highest
1 political authority in the RSK. So whether he is leading or heading the
2 armed forces, as far as I am concerned there is no difference.
3 Q. Okay. Well, let's at least establish this. It's true that being
4 the leading political figure does not necessarily mean that you're the
5 Supreme Commander of the armed forces; is that correct?
6 A. I have answered that we would -- sorry.
7 We would have to look at the specific legislation of the country
8 we're referring to. And I don't like an expression like "leading."
9 Maybe it's again a language issue but if you could say -- just say, well,
10 he's the president or is the prime minister, I mean, yeah, let's use
11 official names and then see how the various laws define the competencies
12 and responsibilities of these official -- of these officials.
13 Q. Do items 2, 3, 4, or 5 of Article 6 imply any command and control
14 over the armed forces?
15 A. There's not -- no, they don't, Your Honours, because it's
16 explained in item 1.
17 Q. Can we go to page -- the next page of your report. You can just
18 flip the page, sir. And if we could please go to Article 34 in the
19 document in front of us. And I'll just pose my question without waiting
20 for it to arrive.
21 Article 34 specifies who is to exercise command and control over
22 the Territorial Defence which, at this time, is defined as the main
23 component of the armed forces. And we see the expression "command and
24 control" is used there very specifically.
25 Now why in your view, and you have expressed some caution as to
1 whether or not you're an expert in this area, and you don't speak B/C/S,
2 and you don't know the political background, but why, to the best of your
3 ability to analyse this, would it say in Article 34 "command and control"
4 and those words wouldn't be used in Article 6?
5 A. Your Honours, this is because in Article 34 we're talking about
6 the military command and control over the TO based on the political
7 guidance received from the president of the republic as it is defined in
8 paragraph 1 of Article 6.
9 Q. I thank you for that answer. But doesn't political guidance to
10 the -- isn't it possible to have a system where political guidance is
11 provided by the political authorities to a Supreme Commander and the
12 political authorities are not the Supreme Commander; isn't that correct,
13 as a matter of military doctrine?
14 A. I would -- I mean, if we're talking about the RSK as it is in
15 March 1992, because I think that's important, in light of the adoption of
16 another Law on Defence in 1993 and including the introduction of a
17 supreme defence council, if we're talking -- sorry, about the RSK in
18 March 1992, then please show me an article in the law that defines the
19 responsibility of the president differently as I have defined it -- than
20 I have defined it.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Am I all right, Mr. President, or is there some
22 guidance from the Bench?
23 JUDGE HALL: I'll alert you as to what is playing in the back of
24 my mind and what just passed sotto voce between myself and
25 Presiding Judge. That I don't know how far -- how far we're go with this
1 because the -- to the extent that the witness has already explained the
2 limitations of his expertise, isn't the -- apart from the translation
3 issues between B/C/S and English, there is certain constitutional
4 conceptual issues which seem to be wholly outside of the expertise of the
5 witness, and the -- the -- if I might personalise this, I think that you,
6 like myself, know well the difference between effective political control
7 and titular control.
8 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Judge Hall. I really take on board what
9 you said and I agree. The difficulty that we're in is that the report
10 goes into these issues, and I can now provide a transcript reference.
11 Mr. Theunens went into this at pages 4337 and 4339. So I'm in a bit of a
12 dilemma. I accept entirely what you're saying, and yet I somehow need to
13 refute what has been said.
14 THE WITNESS: But ... I -- I mean, my recollection can be wrong
15 but I think when we discussed this in examination, it was in reference to
16 the letter sent by UNPROFOR General Wahlgren, and this talks about the
17 situation in 1993 and if I'm not wrong that is after the -- the --
18 adoption of a subsequent Law on Defence of the RSK which talks about the
19 SVK as the armed force of the RSK as well as it introduces the
20 Supreme Defence Council, so we're talking about a different situation.
21 And if I remember well, then I was talking about or I was trying to
22 explain why General Wahlgren sends the letter to Mr. Hadzic. I was not
23 engaging in any legalistic discussion with Mr. Demirdjian at that stage.
24 MR. GOSNELL:
25 Q. Well, let's move forward then and try to make progress and get
1 through this.
2 MR. GOSNELL: And I'll be guided by the Bench. I understand that
3 I should proceed through and not take too much time trying to get answers
4 that I can't get.
5 So if we could have L49, please. It's a Prosecution document.
6 It's part of the package.
7 Q. This is an amendment of the 22nd of April, 1993. The important
8 part is on page 3 of the English. It's Amendment 13.
9 And the same word that we saw used in Article 6, at least in one
10 of the translations of Article 6 of the Law on Defence, is again used in
11 amendment 13, and it says:
12 "Leaves the Serbian army of Krajina in times of peace and war in
13 accordance with the RSK constitution and decisions adopted by the Supreme
14 Defence Council and presides over the Supreme Defence Council."
15 Now looking at that, can you agree with me that he is obliged,
16 the president is obliged to follow instructions of the Supreme Defence
18 A. That is correct. And he presides over the Supreme Defence
20 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have L55, please.
21 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to -- this is the decision
22 to promulgate amendment 8 to the constitution of the RSK dated the 18th
23 of May, 1992. And if we just go around to the top of page 2, it's
24 amendment 8, sub-article 3:
25 "The president of the republic of Serbian Krajina shall appoint
1 the commander of the republic of Serbian Krajina TO and shall appoint and
2 dismiss the presidents, judges, and judge jurors of military courts and
3 military prosecutors."
4 First of all, that appointment presumably would also have to be
5 directed and authorised and decided upon by the Supreme Defence Council.
6 Would you agree?
7 A. No, Your Honours, because this -- I mean, this is May 1992. The
8 Supreme Defence Council of the RSK is only introduced in April 1993. So
9 this -- we are in a different situation, and I think this is explained
10 even in the amalgamated report, so I would say it's -- it can be very
11 misleading by comparing documents from totally different time-periods
12 with each other. In April 1992, there is no Supreme Defence Council in
13 the RSK.
14 Q. Okay. That's my mistake and I apologise for that --
15 A. I'm sorry. And -- I mean, there is an error in the transcript,
16 and I'm probably speaking too fast. When I say the Supreme Defence
17 Council of the RSK is only introduced in April, I mean April 1993, not
18 1992. It's a big difference.
19 THE INTERPRETER: This witness is kindly asked to slow down for
20 the benefit of the interpreters. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 MR. GOSNELL:
23 Q. That's my mistake. But the point that I wanted to make with you
24 or ask you about in respect of this is it says: The president has the
25 power to appoint but there is no power to remove, is there?
1 A. It would be good to compare the two texts because if you can
2 appoint, I mean, it should also be explained then who can dismiss if your
3 proposition is correct. If you can -- if you would compare the B/C/S and
4 the English, maybe there's an error in the translation. Or we would try
5 to find another article in the law in this -- in this amendment
6 indicating who then can dismiss because it has to be specified. It has
7 to be put in law who has that authority.
8 Q. Can mobilisation be ordered under the Law of All People's Defence
9 by someone other than the SFRY Presidency?
10 A. Your Honours, I would ask for a more specific question. Which
11 area are we talking about? I mean, which geographic area? What
13 Q. Well, I'm just going to -- I'm going move onto another topic and
14 I'm going to come back to that.
15 And I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the
16 situation around Vukovar when it falls.
17 Could we have 00623, please. It's not on our list but this was
18 one of the two that I notified the Prosecution about yesterday.
19 Now this is from Vladimir Stojanovic, the commander of the Guards
20 Motorised Brigade.
21 "I hereby forbid the exchange of SFRY prisoners for the prisoners
22 of the armed formations of the Republic of Croatia without my
24 That's 19th of November, 1991.
25 Does that suggest to you that the JNA considers itself the
1 custodian of all prisoners who have been taken into custody upon the fall
2 of Vukovar?
3 A. I mean, yes, Your Honours. Whereby when we use the word
4 "prisoner," I prefer the language as it is used in paragraph 1 of this
5 document. Actually, I'm very grateful you show it because it's the
6 document I referred to when Mr. Demirdjian was asking me questions about
7 who would you decide about exchange of prisoners and I couldn't recall
8 the exact document, but this is the document that I refer to; that is,
9 that at that moment, i.e., 19th of November, the JNA still wants to
10 centralise any exchange of prisoners of war. And they are defined -- the
11 nature of the prisoners is identified in the document, who these people
13 Q. Do you know that Aleksandar Vasiljevic visited Vukovar in the
14 19th of November 1991?
15 A. I -- I do, Your Honours.
16 Q. Do you know that that is also not recorded in the war diary of
17 the Guards Brigade?
18 A. I think that the war diary refers to the arrival of a delegation
19 of senior officers of the security administration.
20 Now, at this moment I don't recall whether this delegation
21 includes General Vasiljevic or it is limited to the three other officers
22 of the security administration, UB.
23 Q. Now, I just have two last documents to go through and I think
24 they're highly significant, so we're going to take a little bit of time
25 with them.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please go to 1131, Prosecution tab 289.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Is counsel planning to tender the previous
3 document? Because it's not in the package.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Yes. Thank you for that. We would tender that.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 623 shall be assigned
7 Exhibit D55. Thank you.
8 MR. GOSNELL:
9 Q. Now this document appears to be from the federal secretariat for
10 the National Defence Security Administration. Is Aleksandar Vasiljevic
11 the head of this at this time?
12 A. I don't know whether he is still the head at that time because
13 which -- which -- I thought it was May 1992 but maybe I missed it now,
14 the date.
15 Q. The date is the 26th of May, 1992.
16 A. I think he has been retired by then. I mean, there was a wave of
17 early retirements and I think that General Vasiljevic was a part of that.
18 But again, I can stand corrected. I haven't looked into his career for
19 the past year. And he has also been held -- or he was arrested at one
20 movement, so he left or he was removed from the security administration
21 at one moment. I also know that he was retired at one moment. I think
22 he was retired already by the date of this document.
23 Q. If we turn the page. It's information on the crimes against
24 civilians committed by the members of the paramilitary and the volunteer
25 formations in the RSK.
1 "While carrying out the tasks from within their authorities in
2 the zone of responsibility of the JNA engaged in the territory of the
3 RSK, the organs of the security of JNA gathered a number of operative and
4 other information on the serious criminal acts (murder, theft, abuse,
5 rape, et cetera) committed by the members of the volunteer formations who
6 were, for the most part, on the strength of the TO of Eastern Slavonia,
7 Western Srem, and Baranja at the time those acts were committed.
8 "All information was immediately passed onto the local organs of
9 government, the organs of internal affairs of the Republic of Serbia, and
10 the military-legal organs, and adequate measures on identifying the
11 perpetrators, taking them before the military-legal organs, and
12 documenting all activities were taken."
13 Now just as an initial matter, as you read that, can you see that
14 a distinction is being drawn: On the one hand, information is being
15 disseminated to the local organs of government, the organs of the
16 internal affairs of the Republic of Serbia, as well as military-legal
17 organs, and it says measures are taken to take those cases before the
18 military-legal organs. In other words, doesn't it appear from that that
19 the prosecutions are going to end up before the military-legal organs but
20 that the other agencies or the other identified groups are going to
21 assist in the investigation?
22 A. Yeah. I mean, it -- it's possible.
23 Q. All right. And then on pages 2 and 3, I'm not going to read the
24 discussion there about the events involving
25 Lieutenant-Colonel Dimitrijevic and the Valjevo TO Detachment and the
1 Dusan Silni Detachment in respect of the events described there in Lovas,
2 because that's what it's about, it's about Lovas.
3 And below that description it says:
5 "1. JNA military prosecutor's office;
6 "2. Republic of Serbia HQ -- republic HQ of Territorial;
8 And, 3:
9 "Republic of Serbia under-secretary for State Security Service
10 MUP were informed on the above event in a memo by the security
11 administration of SSNO ..."
12 Now, first of all, would you agree with me that of those the only
13 prosecutorial organ that's notified here is the JNA military prosecutor's
15 A. That is correct, Your Honours.
16 Q. And there's no notation that this information should go to any
17 prosecutorial organ in the SBWS; right?
18 A. No. But then again we come to issue of dates. I haven't seen
19 any documents that by the 26th of October, 1991, there is such a
20 prosecutorial organ or structure in the SBWS bearing also in mind the
21 1st Military District order 2436-1 from 20th of November, 1991, that, as
22 I mentioned several times, for the first time mentions or identifies the
23 SAO SBWS civilian authorities as competent or relevant organs of civilian
11 Page 4650 redacted.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Theunens, I say that the remaining examples in this
3 report reflect what I've just asked you about so I'm not going to go
4 through it.
5 MR. GOSNELL: But I would tender this document, Mr. President.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Again, it's part of the package, Your Honours,
7 so we'll note that there's no objection on the admission of this
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you Mr. Demirdjian.
10 MR. GOSNELL: Just one last example, it's D17, Prosecution tab
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I suppose you will not deal with
13 this document in two, three minutes.
14 MR. GOSNELL: Not likely, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would it be appropriate to do it after the break.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, please, Mr. President. And I would only have
17 ten minutes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
19 And just awareness, Mr. Demirdjian, how long would you need?
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yesterday I announced about 15 to 20 minutes,
21 now I'll say 20 to 25 based on what we heard this morning.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Theunens, we'll take the first break.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: In the remaining time, there is an issue about
3 Mr. Gosnell, that's the -- the one where we had a translation
4 problem. You submitted to the interpreters, and then you said that there
5 was a request for review pending; right?
6 MR. GOSNELL: That's my information, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. But is that your request or is that OTP's
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is our request.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So it your request --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It was submitted last week.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. It is your request and it is with regard
13 to the translation of -- of the word that is translated as "prime
14 minister"; right?
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Because there is another -- another
17 request pending from the Prosecution for which we -- I think we still
18 wait for the answer, or did you give the answer?
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Oh. Your Honours, that was -- yes, let me get
20 back to you after the break. I believe that the issue sorted itself
21 because the version that I had was a non-revised version.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Right. Yeah, yeah.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In e-court is the revised version now, so I
24 think that that's closed. That issue is closed.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: And there is another issue with that same
1 document. It was apparently temporarily put under seal until the
2 Prosecutor advises otherwise. You should deal with this matter as well,
3 Mr. Demirdjian, and tell us whether it should be -- should stay under
4 seal or whether it can go public.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is in relation to P171 still.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's still in relation to P171.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: All right. We will consult during the break,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Defence will file a motion, I would say, by
12 the end of -- of the week for that revised translation? Would that be
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: For this particular document.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: This particular document.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, as far as I know.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. And, Mr. Demirdjian, you will tell us
18 after the break about the seal -- under seal or not.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, I will consult during the break,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, while the --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Who's first?
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: While the witness is being brought in, I can
3 inform you that Exhibit P171 does not require any protective measures any
4 longer. We have received an answer.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In addition for as to the same exhibit, we did
8 not ask the correction of the translation until last break. It had to be
9 asked on 9 of May, but I apologise for misinformation.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would that mean that we would have to wait a
11 little bit longer to have the review?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's been asked. It's been asked.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We asked it during the break.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's not urgent in that way. Thank you.
18 Yes, Mr. Theunens.
19 Mr. Gosnell, please proceed.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Could we have D17, please. D17. That's Prosecution tab 291.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, this is a document from the State Security
23 Department centre Belgrade dated the 27th of May, 1992. And it appears
24 to be connected to the previous document we looked at, as it says
25 there -- it refers to information received from the security
1 administration on the -- on the previous day.
2 And then if -- you can just see there that item 1, again,
3 concerns the incidents at the village of Lovas. And if we turn the page
4 to page 2, at the bottom of the discussion about the events in Lovas, it
6 "We think that the military prosecutor would have the authority
7 for the possible criminal procedure against these persons."
8 And then if we go to item 4, it says -- it describes an incident
9 in a village called Jankovci. I don't know the location of that. It's
10 not -- it doesn't -- it's not material to my question. And it says:
11 "The conclusion is that the responsibility lies with: Buha Risto
12 as the TO company commander, Carevic, Jovan, a member of the TO,
13 Dragojevic, Petar, also a member of the TO. This action of
14 intimidation ... was carried out on the order of the company
15 commander ... the possible criminal procedure would come under the
16 authority of the military prosecutor's office."
17 Now do you agree that it's very clear when we look at all these
18 examples that it's the opinion of both the SSNO, and here we see a
19 civilian organ, that crimes committed by members of the TO fall within
20 the jurisdiction of military justice for prosecution?
21 A. Irrespective of the two documents in -- according to doctrine, it
22 would -- it is correct given the Law on Military Prosecution and the Law
23 on Military Courts of 1977. I just want to highlight that in the
24 document here from the State Security, Serbia, conditional wording is
25 used, i.e., they say that the criminal -- possible criminal procedure
1 would come. I don't know why they write that, you know. I haven't been
2 able to establish. But otherwise I agree with your proposition.
3 Q. In most countries, are crimes committed by a member of the armed
4 forces in relation to armed conflict within the exclusive jurisdiction of
5 military justice?
6 A. That is probably the case. I mean, if we would have to look
7 again as I said earlier to a similar general question to the specific
8 legislation. But as for SFRY, it is clear -- I mean, we discussed those
10 Q. I'm done with that document. Thank you. Now if we could just
11 have a look at two provisions of ...
12 If we could have a look at L10, please. And this is Law on All
13 People's Defence. And I just want to take you briefly to two provisions,
14 if I may. And if we could go to page 11 of the English, which is
15 Article 23.
16 Now there it describes work obligation. Can I just ask you,
17 Mr. Theunens, is -- there's nothing unusual or strange or out of line
18 with prescribing a work obligation for civilian citizens in a time of war
19 in terms of what you know about military doctrine in general?
20 A. I see these articles in the 1982 All People's Defence law,
21 Your Honours, but I don't remember seeing any JNA documents covering the
22 1991/1992 conflict in Croatia mentioning work obligation, so there's not
23 much I can say except for reading the article together with you.
24 Q. Well, we're not going to go back to our previous discussion about
25 the entities that are covered by the Law on All People's Defence, but it
1 includes local communes, doesn't it?
2 A. It does. But of course when it's mentioned in 1982 or any other
3 SFRY law, it refers to recognised entities and recognised local communes.
4 As I mentioned before, the status of some declared entities like the SAOs
5 and their subordinate local structures is a complex matter, and again I
6 have explained how the SFRY political and military leadership tries to
7 handle these things. Another complicating factor is the appearance of
8 these politically affiliated volunteers/paramilitary groups well as
9 groups maintaining special relations with the Ministry of Interior of the
10 Republic of Serbia. All these kinds of additional groups and structures
11 were not foreseen in the SFRY legislation, let alone the 1982 All
12 People's Defence law.
13 Q. Article 71, page 39 in the English.
14 This article is about mobilisation. In the event of an attack on
15 the country or an immediate threat of war or in other emergencies,
16 socio-political communities, self-management organisations and
17 communities, et cetera, shall take and carry out, implement measures and
18 mobilise their forces and resources according to plans for defence."
19 Again -- and then just to go down:
20 "In the event of an attack on the country, communities,
21 organisation, and organs listed in paragraph 1 of this article shall
22 carry out mobilisation even without an explicit order."
23 Would you agree that these communities, whatever may be their
24 legal status, and you have discussed that in your previous answer, would
25 you agree that this mobilisation can occur even without an order from the
1 SFRY Presidency?
2 A. Your Honours, the article is clear, but the -- the -- the legal
3 status, i.e., whether these entities are recognised or not is the key
4 provision because otherwise anyone -- I mean, a football club could
5 declare mobilisation but it wouldn't make sense because a football club
6 is not a legally organised entity in the wider concept of All People's
7 Defence, and that is also my understanding of the SAOs, at least
8 initially, until the various additional decisions are adopted during fall
10 Q. Did the Ministry of Defence of the SBWS have any physical
11 manifestation in the region of the SBWS? Did it have a building? Did it
12 have a telephone? Did it have an office? As far as you know.
13 A. I would like to ask for clarification, Your Honours. About which
14 time-period are we talking?
15 Q. Any time in 1991.
16 A. I understand that a decision is adopted by the Great Assembly
17 concerning the competencies of the Ministry of Defence in -- and this is
18 done in October 1991, but I haven't soon any documents concerning the
19 implementation of this decision and I don't recall other -- as what you
20 call physical manifestations of the existence of the Ministry of Defence
21 of the SBWS in fall 1991.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, thank you very much for your forbearance.
23 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, that concludes my cross-examination.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
25 Mr. Demirdjian, re-direct.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Your Honours, before I commence my re-examination, would this be
3 an appropriate moment to tender the report and the errata sheets if
4 there's no objection?
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
6 MR. GOSNELL: I suggest that we deal with this at the end.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's deal with it at the end.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Theunens.
10 A. Good morning, Mr. Demirdjian.
11 Q. I will try to be very brief. During the first day of
12 cross-examination if you remember you were asked a number of questions
13 with respect to Arkan's subordination to the JNA. Do you remember that?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Now there's one document that was shown to you. This is
16 Exhibit D27.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display it on the screen, please.
18 Q. And if you'll remember, you'll see it in a moment, we will have
19 to go to page 4 in the English version and that is page 8 in the B/C/S
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now -- so page 4 in English and page 8 in the
22 B/C/S. Thank you.
23 Q. Now you'll remember that this was a certificate signed by Arkan
24 and you've seen this. There's the header of the TO training centre in
1 Now, Mr. Theunens, based on this document, are you able to tell
2 us whether this document was addressed to anyone in specific?
3 A. Could we scroll on the B/C/S to the bottom, please.
4 I mean, the -- it is certificate. There's no specific addressee
5 included. But I know that these kind of certificates were used for --
6 to -- to support request for compensation, in particular if it concerned
7 somebody who had been injured during the war.
8 Q. And now this is part of a bundle of about 11 pages I believe.
9 The Defence didn't show you a cover page. Could we put it to page 1 in
10 both versions, please.
11 Mr. Theunens, have you seen this type of form in reviewing
13 A. It -- it does remind me to a personnel files of members of the
14 special purpose unit of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of
15 Serbia, I mean the layout, but I'm into the 100 per cent sure, I mean,
16 because those documents I only saw them -- I mean these kind of documents
17 when I testified in the Stanisic/Simatovic trial and I was handed over a
18 CD with documents from the Defence and I believe that similar documents,
19 i.e., personnel files of members of the special unit, the purpose unit of
20 the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia were -- were included
21 in that CD.
22 Q. Now if we go to the next page in both versions under item number
23 3, "Information on Wounding," you see here under number 2, the date and
24 the place, 2nd of August, during combat operations in Tenja. I think
25 this was covered during your examination-in-chief -- during your
1 cross-examination. And if we now go to the very next page, under item
2 number 4, "Opinion and Conclusion," in the B/C/S version it's a
3 handwritten note, and in the English here we see:
4 "He is living with three other members of his family in a 50
5 square metre flat. His father is retired. He is unemployed. He has to
6 attend rehabilitation for the next three months. His financial situation
7 is difficult.
8 "Approved assistance of 5.000 dinars," in Belgrade, 16
9 December 1991.
10 Now there is a name here, assistant Suzana Kerovic. Her position
11 or organisation is not indicated. Again, does this conclusion give you
12 any indication of which institution would have issued this document?
13 A. No, it doesn't, Your Honour. If it would have been the JNA I
14 would have expected some heading or some stamp from the JNA. But, again,
15 probably there are other documents in the file that may be of assistance
16 in order to clarify this matter.
17 Q. And have you seen any documents or similar documents which
18 provide financial assistance to wounded or injured, in this case, Arkan
20 A. Yes, Your Honours. Referring again to these personnel files of
21 members of the special purpose is unit of the Ministry of Interior for
22 Republic of Serbia, and these decisions were then issued to the best of
23 my recollection by the competent authorities of the Republic of Serbia
24 and not by the JNA.
25 Q. And are you familiar with the term Captain Dragan Fund,
1 Mr. Theunens?
2 A. Yes, Your Honours.
3 Q. What is that, in a nutshell?
4 A. I'm not entirely able to answer the question. I know that
5 Captain Dragan kept records. I mean, similar documentation of members of
6 volunteer units, whereby some of these people in 1991 were, for example,
7 members of -- of Seselj's volunteers or affiliated with volunteer groups
8 that were linked one way or the other to the SRS or that maintain contact
9 with the SRS war staff, whereby one would see that the same individuals
10 would later identified as members of the special purpose unit of the
11 Ministry of Interior of Republic of Serbia. I understand that this
12 Dragan fund was used, yeah, to regulate requests for compensation for
13 these individuals but I -- that's all can I say about it.
14 Q. Thank you. And a final question on this issue.
15 What system or regulation is provided in the SFRY armed forces
16 with respect to financial assistance to soldiers?
17 A. I -- I wouldn't be able to do so because I -- I don't recall
18 that -- having looked at such provisions, I don't believe that it was
19 included in the All People's Defence law, but on the other hand I have
20 included in my report documents concerning the attitude of Republic of
21 Serbia towards volunteers/paramilitaries, and I think that what is what
22 we are talking about here because this is -- discusses a member of a
23 non- -- a unit that was not foreseen in doctrine of All People's Defence.
24 Q. I'm moving to another topic now at pages 4431 onwards of the
25 cross-examination, if you remember, you were shown a central intelligence
1 agency map of the Eastern Slavonia. I believe this was admitted as
2 Exhibit D38.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could display that on the screen.
4 Q. And while this is coming up, Mr. Theunens, do you remember that
5 you answered -- at least part of your answer was that this map was
6 created based on open-source material; is that right?
7 A. That -- that is correct. And further details can be found in
8 the -- in the introduction to, I think, part one of this report, "Balkan
10 Q. Now, the Defence asked you whether you would agree that this map
11 accurately represents the units that appeared to be there. And I just
12 warranted to bring your attention to the following. It appears at least
13 in the top right-hand corner here that the letter X refers to a brigade.
14 If we can just zoom on that top right-hand corner there.
15 Yes, do you see the letter X?
16 A. Yeah. These are the -- the standard symbols like NATO country
17 use -- I'm sorry I touched the screen, but that NATO countries use to
18 depict units on a map.
19 Q. Very well. We can zoom out now.
20 And I would like you to --
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we zoom to the central part of this map,
23 Q. Do you see in the area of Vinkovci on the right-hand side of the
24 line, you have a 3 Guards Brigade and a 2 Guards Brigade. Have you
25 encountered or have you seen any documents suggesting that such units
1 were deployed in that area? Or employed.
2 A. Yeah. I mean, the potential confusion comes from the fact that
3 there was only one Guards Motorised Brigade in the SFRY armed forces;
4 however, the Proletarian Guards Mechanised Division would also have
5 guards brigades but those were guards mechanised brigades, so there is a
6 difference between the nature of the unit. So there is not necessarily
7 an error in the map but the use of the words "guards" needs to be
9 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
10 Now after the map was shown to you, you were asked by my learned
11 friend whether the map reflects, if you'll remember, that OG North and OG
12 South were separated, and you answered that it's possible. You can draw
13 your conclusions based on this map, and you can answer it again based on
14 the map you see in front of you.
15 Now, putting aside all these arrows and units that we see on the
16 screen, you did explain during your examination-in-chief - and this was
17 at page 4200 - that the JNA controlled the bridges over the Danube at the
18 three entry points.
19 Do you remember that part of your examination?
20 A. I did, Your Honours. I mean, they start to control them at one
21 moment in time in summer 1991. Or even earlier, I think, late spring
23 Q. Do you -- in view of your answer just now and on the document
24 that you have collected, could you tell the Court what was the level of
25 communication between OG South and OG North?
1 A. Just to -- do you mean the level of exchange of information.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Or --
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. I mean, we would have to look at the specific documents
6 because -- I mean, from a doctrinal point of view they should have been
7 in contact with each other because they're neighbouring units. And again
8 given the situation in the area where there are reports of infiltration
9 by members of ZNG and other Croatian forces, it's really imperative that
10 they -- not only that they talk to each other as neighbouring units but
11 there would also be a physical contention, i.e., maybe that they can see
12 each other or that the weapons of the neighbouring units, i.e., north --
13 OG North, south, OG South, that they can cover the same area to avoid
14 gaps, but I think we would -- I mean, we would have to look at the
15 specific documents.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, on that note, could we display 65 ter 6010
17 which is at tab 547.
18 THE WITNESS: While we're doing it, can we see because I don't
19 remember seeing a date on the map or whether it covers a time-period or
20 not, so -- because that's also important to keep in mind in order to
21 assess the usefulness of this map.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Perhaps if we're able to display the last
23 document. I don't believe there is a date but let's take a quick look.
24 Perhaps I missed something.
25 MR. GOSNELL: It'll appear on the legend.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: On the legend. Thank you.
2 Well, if we can zoom on the top right-hand corner.
3 THE WITNESS: Sorry to interrupt, but --
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
5 Q. Yes, I believe you have dates with respect to the boundaries at a
6 certain point in time, and --
7 A. Yeah, it's -- sorry, I can read. It shows like this -- sorry. I
8 think it's December 1991 so ... I can read this position: Shown as of
9 December 1991 which I would say is of limited use if you want to
10 understand what's happening around Vukovar because by then the
11 Guards Motorised Brigade has been withdrawn and OG South has been
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So let's look very briefly at 65 ter 6010,
15 please. Yes, I believe we have the English version on the screen. Thank
16 you for that.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Theunens, do you see here that this is a document of the
18 command of the 12th Corps on the 6th of October 1991 in the village of
19 Dalj. And I'd like to take your attention to item number 2A:
20 "The command of OG South launched attacks according to a previous
22 And there's a detailed explanation with the involvement of the
23 assault detachments here.
24 Now, this is just one document and there will be more, but can
25 you tell us based on this document on the 6th of October how you would
1 assess the quality of the communities between those two units?
2 A. Well, from doctrinal point of view, a unit has to be aware of the
3 activities of a neighbouring unit. I think it's -- the reasons are
4 obvious also given my previous -- my answer to a previous question.
5 Now, again, in the course of military doctrine, this information
6 would be provided by the command of the 1st Military District. There
7 would be regular meetings between -- I mean, held at the command of the
8 military district where commanders or representatives of the commanders
9 of the various subordinate units would be present to receive instructions
10 from the command of the 1st Military District for operations as well as
11 to discuss the situation and there, of course, they would conduct a
12 liaison and during operations they should also be in contact with each
13 other for the reasons I explained.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Theunens.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this is a new document. May I
16 apply to tender it, 65 ter 6010.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1720. Thank you.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. I'll move to a different topic, Mr. Theunens. At page 4443
21 during cross-examination you were shown Exhibit P103, which I would like
22 us to display on the screen now, and this document dealt with, if you'll
23 remember, a report that Arkan had destroyed a Catholic church in the
24 village of Erdut.
25 Thank you.
1 Now at the bottom of the page we see the sentence there -- this
2 is the document of the 1st of October 1991 from the security organs of a
3 military unit -- yes.
4 And at the bottom of the sentence here, do you see the sentence,
5 the last three lines, and it read -- and I'm going to read it slowly for
7 "Arkan had completely destroyed a Catholic church in the village
8 of Erdut and the church tower was destroyed before that, during the JNA's
9 takeover of Erdut."
10 Now, during your cross-examination, the Defence asked you whether
11 you were disputing that the last sentence on page 1 referred to the
12 takeover of Erdut on the 1st of August by the JNA.
13 Looking at the document - and I'd like to bring your attention to
14 the word "and" in the middle of that sentence - what is your view with
15 respect to the incidents that are being referred to here?
16 A. I'm trying to understand the purpose of the comma between "that"
17 and "during," because I think that would -- I mean, I haven't -- I don't
18 have any other or any specific recollection as to when the church was
19 destroyed. I have a recollection that the tower was destroyed during the
20 takeover because there were allegedly ZNG members hiding in it, and --
21 to -- to which were considered threat by the JNA. But I have no specific
22 recollection as to when Arkan destroyed the church. So that's all can I
23 say it is -- I mean, you could say that it was after the takeover, but
24 the comma is in my view is misleading.
25 So I can't answer the question.
1 Q. All right. I'll move onto the next topic, Mr. Theunens.
2 If you'll remember during your cross-examination this was at
3 pages 4463 onwards, you were asked within the context of the events in
4 SBWS when do combat operations end in OG North. Do you remember that
6 A. I do, Your Honours.
7 Q. And you answered that your interpretation of the documents led
8 you to conclude that the JNA had taken control of Dalj on August 1st.
9 I want you to take a look at Exhibit P1690, which is at tab 544
10 of the Prosecution list.
11 Again, this is a document of the Command of the 12th Corps on the
12 28th of September, 1991. Under the first header you see that
13 Colonel Belic is appointed commander of the operations group. And I'd
14 like to take your attention to item number 2:
15 "The OG commander is tasked with consolidating forces north of
16 Vukovar, blocking exit from Vukovar from the north and preparing to lift
17 the siege of Vukovar."
18 Could you tell us, based on this document and other documents
19 that you have seen, what is the mission of OG North at that stage, at the
20 end of September 1991?
21 MR. GOSNELL: Objection. That's vague, very vague, given the
22 composition of OG North.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, Your Honours, I'm trying to be as
24 non-leading as possible in this stage. I'm focussing on the information
25 we have in this document with respect to what OG North is being assigned
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if the question refers to the
3 OG North that is discussed in this order, well, I think the paragraph is
4 clear. It's to prevent Croatian forces from exiting Vukovar via the
5 north. Also -- I mean, consolidating forces means that you extend your
6 control, your -- I mean, your -- finalise your deployment and then you're
7 ready to operate while deployed in the area north of Vukovar which is
8 the -- I mean, the area is not specified but it's north of Vukovar. And
9 I spoke about blocking the exit, I mean preventing forces -- Croatian
10 forces from exiting or from leaving Vukovar via the north. And then also
11 assisting the other JNA forces in lifting the siege -- what is called the
12 siege of Vukovar, i.e., by the parts in Vukovar that are under Croatian
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
15 Q. And if you look at the bottom of this document at item 7, it
16 talks about the command of the 12th Corps being responsible to provide
17 logistical support.
18 And then item number 8 which says:
19 "Relocate the command post to the sector of the village of
20 Borovo Selo."
21 Now what does that tell you with respect, again, to my earlier
22 question of the mission or perhaps the focus of OG North at the time?
23 A. Well, overall, I mean, the geographic focus is north of Vukovar.
24 Q. Thank you. And might I show you one more document on this issue,
25 which is at 65 ter 6016, at tab 552.
1 Mr. Theunens, this is one of the new documents, and this is with
2 respect to the formation of a tactical group. We discussed this during
3 your examination-in-chief. It is issued by the Command of the 12th Corps
4 on the 9th of October, 1991. Could you look at the first sentence:
6 "To unify operations of all forces engaged in the attack on
7 Borovo Naselje in Borovo and to ensure further completion of planned
8 tasks ...," and then we see the order itself.
9 You know, with respect to the last document we saw. In light of
10 the content of that last document, what is your view of the -- again, the
11 focus of OG North or TG North at the time?
12 A. Well, for this order, it -- I mean, it's specified in the first
13 sentence. It's Borovo Naselje, which is actually between Borovo Selo and
14 Vukovar, and I would say that this corresponds with the area -- I mean,
15 generally speaking the area in order -- north-west of Vukovar.
16 Q. Very well.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this is a new document. May I
18 apply to tender it.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1721. Thank you.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
22 Q. I'll move onto my next topic, Mr. Theunens.
23 You were asked -- you were shown exhibit -- sorry. 65 ter 460
24 you were shown yesterday, I believe. And it was with respect to an order
25 from Zivota Panic to send a number of units including the Vojvodina TO.
1 And at the time the Defence pointed to you that there was no mention of
2 the SBWS TO in this order.
3 Yes, we can see it on the screen right now.
4 And you explained in response that at the time the local Serb TO
5 in SBWS was not recognised and that's how you explained the absence of a
6 mention of the SBWS TO here.
7 Now, are you able to assist the Trial Chamber, based on the
8 amount of documents you have seen with respect to the operations in
9 Vukovar, for what purpose were the local Serb TO used during the combat
11 A. Your Honours, there is an order from OG South, if I remember well
12 it's the number 235-1 from the 14th of October, where it is stated that
13 TO Petrova Gora and Leva Supoderica are to be used as guides which makes
14 sense because the local -- members of the local Serb TO, i.e., those
15 originating from the area, know the area better than the members of the
16 Guards Motorised Brigade and this is particularly important in the
17 context of urban warfare as it was by that time in the outskirts of
19 From other documents, just summarising them, we also see that the
20 TO is used to control the terrain, i.e., the rear area, because the JNA
21 units of -- are used on the front line. I mean, those are the main
22 missions I remember at this stage.
23 Q. You anticipated my next question, Mr. Theunens.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And, on that note, if we could display on the
25 screen 65 ter 353, which is at tab 92 of the Prosecution's list.
1 Q. Now, you see on the screen that this is a document issued by the
2 Guards Motorised Brigade Command on the 1st of October, 1991, command
3 post in Negoslavci. Do you see that on the screen?
4 A. I do, Your Honours.
5 Q. Mr. Theunens, just to place us back in the context, when did the
6 Guards Motorised Brigade arrive in the area of Negoslavci?
7 A. Your Honours, end of September 1991, early October. Because -- I
8 mean, the resubordination order which is discussed on page 442 dates from
9 the 29th of September. By this resubordination order the
10 Guards Motorised Brigade is resubordinated from the SSNO to the
11 1st Military District.
12 Q. So this would be have been -- am I correct to say that this is
13 about a day or two days later after the arrival of the Guards Motorised
15 A. Yes, Your Honours. And it's, in my recollection, one of the
16 first orders by the Commander of the Guards Motorised Brigade for
17 operations of his unit in the wider Vukovar area and at that time
18 Colonel Mrksic is not yet the commander for OG South.
19 Q. Can I take you to page 2 in the English version. We can remain
20 on the same page in the B/C/S version.
22 Now, you see here -- I apologise. There's a mention here to the
23 Leva and Desna Supoderica and --
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we scroll down a little bit more, please.
25 I apologise. I may have had the wrong version of the document.
1 Can we go to the next page. Can we scroll down a little bit more.
2 Just give me a moment, please.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And maybe I can use this to -- sorry, to
4 correct my -- the order, I was referring to 235-1, is not from the 14th
5 of October, but it's the 29th of October and this is discussed on page
6 457 of my report.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a moment, please.
8 It appears that my handwriting was playing tricks on me too, as
9 my learned friend earlier today.
10 It is page three. At the bottom of that page, please. Look, we
11 are there. Thank you. Thank you.
12 Q. Do you see the paragraph here? It says:
13 "Bring up infantry sections at the achieved line during the night
14 before first light on 2 October with guides from Petrova Gora ... TO
16 Now, is this what you were referring to earlier with respect to
17 the use of local Serb TO?
18 A. Indeed. And I -- excuse me.
19 Indeed, Your Honours. And I have explained why the
20 Guards Motorised Brigade was doing that.
21 Q. Now, the paragraph before that, paragraph 2, suggests -- well, it
23 "The Gmtbr will conduct a blockade and assault on Vukovar."
24 And in the seconds line it says:
25 "In co-operation with Vukovar TO units (Petrova Gora) ..."
1 Now, I'd like you to explain to the Trial Chamber, if you're able
2 to form a view, as to how the Guards Motorised Brigade arriving on the
3 29th or 30th of September would have established a contact with the local
4 Serb TO in Vukovar.
5 A. Well, Your Honours, I haven't seen specific documents on that,
6 but, again, from a doctrinal point of view, there would have been
7 meetings between the members of the -- I mean, the relevant members of
8 the Guards Motorised Brigade, i.e., members of the command, battalion
9 commander, company commanders, and commanding officers of local Serb TO
10 unit -- units, I'm sorry, in the respective areas or zones of
11 responsibilities of the companies, the battalions of the Guards Motorised
12 Brigade. So there would be meetings at the level of the command as well
13 as at the the lowest unit level so that everybody knows everybody and
14 that they can also co-ordinate their operations in view of conducting
15 operations, I mean, and implementing the three principles of command and
17 Q. Very well. I'll move onto my penultimate topic. I believe it is
18 yesterday, at page 4589, that you were shown Exhibit D48.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could have that up on the screen, please.
21 Q. You'll remember that the Defence were asking as to why these
22 appointments here are being made by -- at the SSNO level. If you
23 remember that was the question yesterday. And we see a number of
24 colonels, lieutenant-colonels, six of them in fact, that are being
25 assigned to the towns of Mirkovci and Tenja.
1 And you answered that if they came outside the 1st Military
2 District, then that could have been an explanation as to why it's the
3 SSNO that issues that order because the 1st Military District cannot
4 order officers, et cetera.
5 Now, I'd like you to look at one of the new documents. It's at
6 65 ter 6074.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this document was not on our list.
8 I believe that it might assist in answering the witness, his request
9 basically to see a document about the appointment of the officers.
10 So 65 ter 6074.
11 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I haven't even had sight of the document. I
12 mean ...
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours, and I agree. It's not on our
14 list but it arose from the witness's answer yesterday, and I believe it
15 would help the witness in forming his view why this document was issued
16 by the SSNO. This is not a topic that we appreciated would be raised in
18 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I -- I don't like to be technical,
19 Mr. President, but if this was known yesterday we should have received an
20 e-mail last night or this morning, and having not even had ten minutes to
21 look at the document, much less consult, I object to its use.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm in your hands Your Honour.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would think that Mr. Gosnell has a point there,
24 Mr. Demirdjian.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I -- I agree, Your Honours. But, again, if
1 further cross-examination is necessary after the break I would have no
2 objection to that. Again, I'm in your hands. If it assists you to help
3 complete --
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would that solve the problem eventually,
5 Mr. Gosnell?
6 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's your call.
8 MR. GOSNELL: I'm extremely loathe to suggest that any further
9 questions on my part would be something anyone in this room would
10 appreciate, so I would suggest it's not an available or appropriate
11 remedy and we should just not use this document and move on.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, I would not object to additional
13 questions. But if we're down to that, I can move, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please ask your question without showing the
15 document, if that's appropriate or relevant.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yeah. It would be very difficult for
17 Mr. Theunens to answer the question without seeing the document and the
18 appointments made. It's not a major issue, Your Honours. I will move
19 on. That's fine.
20 Q. This morning, Mr. Theunens - and this is my last topic, it is -
21 at page 18, line 13, you were asked by my learned friend, or you were
22 told that none of the documents that you have reviewed at all show that
23 the district was involved in ethnic cleansing or putting pressure on
24 Croats to leave. Do you remember that question?
25 A. I do, Your Honours.
1 Q. I would like you to look at Exhibit D51 which the Defence showed
2 you during their cross-examination.
3 We see here the cover page from the Command of the 1st Mechanized
4 Corps. And this document is sent to the 1st Military District. I would
5 like you to go to page 4 in the English version, which is page 3 in the
6 B/C/S version. And if we could zoom on item number 10 which was shown to
7 you by my learned friend.
8 Sir, in the middle of this paragraph, do you see the sentence
9 that starts with the word "because"?
10 A. In -- in paragraph 10 or is --
11 Q. Yes, item 10, line 6:
12 "Because of distrust and what is happening to Serbs who remain in
13 Western Slavonia ..."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, indeed, I see it.
16 Q. Very well. And the sentence continues:
17 "And with the tacit consent of the government of the SAO Slavonia
18 and the assistance of the prominent members of the government, the
19 so-called co-ordinators and ministers, they are placing a certain
20 pressure on the local inhabitants to make them move out voluntarily."
21 Now, sir, with respect to the question that was asked this
22 morning in the documents you have reviewed, what is your view with
23 respect to the involvement of the Serbian district?
24 A. Your Honours, I have answered that question but I can repeat it
25 and I will try to be as brief as possible.
1 That is that based on my review of JNA documents, a pattern
2 develops whereby pressure is exercised on members of the population.
3 This consists mainly of minority members of the population, even of
4 ethnic groups that were not directly involved in the conflict. I
5 remember seeing a document concerning -- sorry, a JNA document with a
6 need to protect Ruthenians and Ukrainians, but they were not a faction or
7 a party in the conflict between Croatian forces and JNA forces and
8 related forces under the latter's command, and this pattern consists of,
9 yeah, pressure, whereby this is condoned or even supported or there's
10 even active involvement of people affiliated with the SAO SBWS government
11 or even members of that government. And this pattern continues also
12 after the official withdrawal of JNA in spring 1992 and the latter
13 conclusion is based on the reports by the UN Secretary-General on the
14 implementation or the resolutions regulating the activities of the UN
15 peacekeeping forces, UNPROFOR, in -- in the UNPAS in view of the
16 implementation of the Vance Plan.
17 Q. Now, we've seen one document which was tendered by the Defence.
18 Allow me to show you one last document, I promise. It is 65 ter 6145 at
19 tab 634.
20 This is a document of the 19th of March of the 1st Mechanized
21 Corps, and I would like you to go to the next page.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And, Your Honours, in all fairness to the
23 Defence, this is a document they did object to during my
24 examination-in-chief with respect to the involvement of the Serbian
25 district. However, my learned friend has dealt with that issue now in
1 his cross-examination, and I would like to use this document at this
3 Q. Now, do you see here at the top of the page under item number 6,
4 Novica Gusic, who we have seen writing numerous reports from the
5 1st Mechanized Corps writes again:
6 "The moving out of the local population is being organised by the
7 local civilian authorities with supervision and security provided by the
8 IS/expansion unknown/of the government of the SO Baranja, Eastern
9 Slavonia, and Western Srem. The person in charge is Ziko Vevcevic."
10 And again, Mr. Theunens, how does that compare with the document
11 we just saw, the previous document?
12 A. Yeah, Your Honours, this document is consist with the previous
13 document and the others, other documents I reviewed which led me to draw
14 the conclusion concerning the pattern I have identified.
15 Q. Thank you for answering my questions, Mr. Theunens.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we tender this document.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1722. Thank you.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This concludes my re-examination, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Expert Witness Theunens, I
24 have one last question for you. It concerns the Supreme Command of the
25 armed forces and its decisions in the territory concerned.
1 You remember at the beginning of your testimony, I asked you a
2 question about the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the
3 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or, as we call it - I'm looking
4 for the acronym in English - SFRY. And you explained very well that the
5 Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY consisted of the
6 Presidency which, in turn, was comprised of the presidents -- no, the
7 president of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and delegates from
8 the six republics and the two autonomous provinces.
9 Now, regarding the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia with
10 its constitution of 1972, the Supreme Command over the army is in the
11 hands of the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the
12 presidents of republics. So there is a difference. What attracted my
13 attention is the collective nature of this Supreme Command. The
14 president always acts with the consent of the delegates from republics.
15 Can you tell me, based on your research and studies and your
16 expertise, whether you have found in any of the documents, such as
17 transcripts from their sessions, the sessions of the Supreme Command of
18 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or perhaps those of the
19 republics, whether you found any documents bearing on JNA actions or
20 operations, or perhaps the new army of the new Federal Republic of
21 Yugoslavia called the VJ, any operations concerning the district of
22 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, or the Serbian Republic of Krajina
23 in the period between 1991 and 1993?
24 In other words, were you able to see in your research that the
25 authorities of the geographic area concerned by the indictment
1 participated in the decision-making concerning the involvement of the JNA
2 in these activities and the activities of the paramilitaries?
3 A. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 I think your question, if I understood it well, covers several
5 aspects. Starting with the last aspect, i.e., the presence of members
6 of -- of local Serb authorities be it in Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina, I
7 do remember seeing some documents concerning sessions of I would call it
8 what remains of the SFRY Presidency from spring 1992. I call it what
9 remains of the SFRY Presidency because by that time obviously the
10 representatives of Slavonia and Croatia are not part anymore of the
11 SFRY Presidency, and in these documents, I mean, they mention the
12 presence of Mr. Martic and/or Mr. Karadzic, and I believe - but I would
13 need to see the document - I also believe Mr. Hadzic.
14 These documents or these sessions of what remains of the
15 SFRY Presidency concern the preparation of the territory covered by the
16 SAOs and subsequently the RSK in Croatia for the deployment of the UN
17 peacekeeping forces which includes, I mean, the various aspects
18 concerning again preparing the JNA for its withdrawal, the creation of --
19 or the formalisation, the formal creation of a RSK TO and related issues.
20 At the same time, I think the other aspect of your question
21 concerns orders concerned -- by the SFRY Presidency and later the FRY
22 Presidency on the activities of the JNA and subsequently the VJ in the
23 SAOs and subsequently the RSK. I have also seen such documents whereby I
24 think the focus there was mainly -- I mean, the various minutes, the
25 focus is mainly on the provision of support to the local Serb defence
1 structures and also, for example, General Panic highlights the dependency
2 of the local Serb defence structures on the assistance from FRY by that
3 time. I mean, after April 1992. We also saw that during at least one
4 session the participation of volunteers/paramilitaries in the conflict in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina in April May 1992 is being discussed, and this is
6 interested in the context of your question because these are similar
7 groups as those or even the same groups as those that were active in the
8 area covered by the SAO SBWS in fall 1991.
9 So I'm not sure whether I covered each of the aspects you raised
10 in your question, but these are at least the documents concerning the
11 activities of the SFRY and subsequently FRY Presidency I recall.
12 And maybe just to complete, I don't recall seeing, for example,
13 that members of the SAO leadership or local Serb authorities in Croatia
14 or Bosnia-Herzegovina -- I mean, I -- I -- that -- I mean, they cannot
15 impose decisions on what the JNA or they cannot impose their views as
16 what the JNA should be doing or not be doing or what later the VJ should
17 be doing or not be doing, because as you say the decisions are taken in a
18 collegial manner. But for spring 1992, there I do recall documents where
19 members of local Serb authorities are present and also expressed certain
20 views. But I -- it is -- I don't recall the extent to which their views
21 were dominating or -- or prevailing in the decision-making process.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, expert
23 Witness. You have, indeed, answered my entire question. Thank you for
24 taking the trouble to answer additional questions.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Theunens, I have two questions -- two
1 questions of you.
2 Could we have document with 65 ter number 500 on the screen,
4 This document with this -- which is signed by Momir Talic is
5 about engagement of and co-ordination with TO units in the zone of
6 responsibility of the 5th Corps.
7 What I would like to know is: What is or what was in late 1991
8 the zone of responsibility of the 5th Corps; do you know? And with zone
9 of responsibility, I'm referring to the geographical zone.
10 A. Your Honours, by that time the 5th Corps is the main JNA unit
11 conducting operations in Western Slavonia, and they have been redeployed
12 due to the events -- I mean, the headquarters which prior to the events
13 in Croatia was in -- in -- in Zagreb has been redeployed by that time to
14 Banja Luka in Bosnia-Hercegovina, so they are basically covering the
15 area -- covered western Bosnia-Herzegovina and fighting in -- in Western
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
18 And the second question is about uniforms, Mr. Theunens. I don't
19 know if you know about the uniforms of the different parts of the Serbian
20 forces engaged in the region.
21 Are there elements by which uniforms of JNA regular conscripts on
22 one hand and reservists on the other? Military police, TO, and
23 paramilitary can be distinguished by, let's say, observant ordinary
24 people? I don't have whether you have that information in your
25 documents, but ...
1 A. Your Honours, I -- I don't have any pictures, I think, included
2 in my reports on the uniforms, but I think I can provide some assistance
3 I hope.
4 The JNA traditional uniform was an olive-drab uniform. One
5 single colour. And the most distinct mark was the red cross -- oh, no,
6 sorry, the red star, not the cross, the star on the helmet or on the
7 little cap they were wearing. Military police would be distinguishable
8 because they wear white belts. To my recollection, TOs - I mean the
9 official TOs - would wear similar uniforms. Also, if you notice that the
10 Guards Motorised Brigade - and I'm not sure whether this was already at
11 the outset of their presence in Vukovar or during their operations in
12 Vukovar, but they received or they started to wear camouflage uniforms
13 which were quite unique at that time for the JNA forces operating in
15 And then, of course, the big problem were the volunteers and
16 paramilitaries whereby they were often wearing a mixture of JNA and other
17 uniforms, whatever they could find. They would wear party insignia be it
18 on caps. I mean, like Seselj's volunteers, for example, some of them
19 would wear fur caps with the Chetnik symbol on it or they would wear
20 these symbols on other parts of the uniform. At the same time you have
21 the Arkan -- or members of Arkan's group which were seen in camouflage
22 uniform but they are all the same uniform. I mean, very disciplined
23 impression compared to at least what we saw in the local Serb TO. And
24 they would also have a -- often an insignia on their shoulders indicating
25 their allegiance. They wouldn't have any Yugoslav symbols.
1 Some reference is made to -- in documents to Arkan's volunteers
2 wearing black uniforms or black overalls. I remember seeing that myself
3 when I visited Erdut in 1990 -- in August 1993. And for the later
4 period, I mean, after April 1992, the SVK -- excuse me, the RSK TOs
5 officially demobilised but you still see people in mixture of uniforms in
6 the area covered by the RSK.
7 At the same time then there is also the PJM, so the special
8 police, and they wear blue tiger stripe uniforms which was a very
9 distinct feature. And then when the SVK is established in -- after
10 November 1992 - I mean formally established, the law dates from May 1992
11 but the actual implementation is after November 1992 - they wear
12 camouflage uniforms with again an SVK insignia on the shoulder.
13 But the big problem is for the volunteers and paramilitaries
14 except Arkan and Dragan, of course, but the others they wear a mixture of
15 uniforms and insignia, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Theunens.
17 Anything triggered by the Judges' questions?
18 Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] With regard to the transcript,
21 there's something I would like to point out. There's some mistakes that
22 have been made with regard to what I said. When I said the Socialist
23 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, for example, and I can see that in the
24 transcript it says the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. When I spoke
25 about federal republic I see it says the Socialist Federal Republic of
1 Yugoslavia. So I'm saying this for the sake of the transcript.
2 And then with regard to the constitution of the Federal Republic
3 of Yugoslavia, I see that there's a mistake in relation to the date
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Theunens, this brings us to the end of your
7 testimony. Thank you very much for assisting the Tribunal. You are now
8 released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey home or wherever you
9 go to right now.
10 Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you very much.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: As for the expert report and the documents,
15 unless there is no objection for the -- from the Defence, the Trial
16 Chamber would like to have written submissions.
17 MR. GOSNELL: Certainly no objection from us, Mr. President. No
18 objection to that procedure at all.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: So which means that you will object to the
20 admission and -- of documents and report? Is that -- is that correct
22 MR. GOSNELL: I -- I can say there will be an objection to some
23 of the documents, that's for sure. I think there is still further
24 consultation required before I can take a position on the report itself.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Then we will wait for your written
2 Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can I just get a clarification as to whether
4 there will be submissions both on the report and the documents? Is there
5 an objection to -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, I heard a yes for the documents, there will
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: And a maybe for the report.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. And for --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's right, isn't it, Mr. Gosnell?
12 MR. GOSNELL: That's quite correct. Thank you very much,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
16 And with respect to the documents, Your Honours, I don't know how
17 we could do this but it would be very helpful if we had an indication of
18 what is being objected to at this stage in order for us to provide you
19 with you a reasoned submission --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's one of the reasons why we are asking for
21 written submissions, Mr. Demirdjian. So --
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- I suppose that will happen that way.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay.
25 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for intervening, Mr. President.
1 Last week, and maybe we're talking about a separate batch of
2 documents, I believe that we received guidance from the Trial Chamber
3 that the parties were going to confer and that the Defence was going to
4 identify documents to which it objected. And then once that -- the
5 parties had conferred and documents had been identified to which there is
6 objection, then that product would come to the Chamber, and I had the
7 impression that it was -- that proposal had been warmly received by the
8 Chamber. I don't know whether we're being told something different now.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Certainly not, Mr. Stringer.
10 The Trial Chamber is always in favour of discussion between
11 parties before taking official positions.
12 Thank you.
13 We'll take the break and come back, let's say, 1.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have a new witness, I take.
17 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. The new witness is being
18 brought in. And just for the record to note now Ms. Lisa Biersay in with
19 the Prosecution together with legal intern, Ivana Martinovic.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: You can hear me in a language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you tell us your name, your date of birth,
2 and your ethnicity, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Stoparic. The 17th of
4 January, 1968. I am of Serbian ethnicity.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 You are about to make the solemn declaration, by which witnesses
7 commit themselves to tell the truth, and I have to point out to you that
8 by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury should you
9 give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.
10 Can I please ask you to write -- to read the solemn declaration
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: GORAN STOPARIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stoparic, also for coming to
17 The Hague to assist the Tribunal. You may be seated.
18 Ms. Biersay, your witness.
19 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Ms. Biersay:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stoparic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. And I see you adjusting. Are you comfortably seated, or is there
24 something we can do with the chairs to assist?
25 A. Everything's fine.
1 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Stoparic, giving a statement to investigators
2 from this Tribunal in November of 2003?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you sign that statement on 24 November 2003?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it fair to say that you have provided additional statements to
7 the Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you've also previously testified before this Tribunal;
11 A. On a number of occasions.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, I apologise in advance to you and the
13 interpreters who have to listen to my cough. I'm very sorry about that.
14 Turning now to the 2003 statement, in that statement you describe
15 your deployment as a volunteer in the former Yugoslavia; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Turning now to tab 1, please.
18 MS. BIERSAY: May we have 65 ter number 5977 displayed for
19 Mr. Stoparic.
20 Q. And, first, when it comes I'll ask to you look at the right side
21 of your screen.
22 So now directing your attention to the right side of your screen
23 which is a -- an English document, do you recognise this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What do you recognise it to be?
1 A. That's my statement from 2003, I believe, yes.
2 Q. And directing your attention to the bottom of that page, do you
3 recognise a signature at the bottom?
4 A. Yes. I can recognise my own signature.
5 MS. BIERSAY: Now if we could turn to page 23 of the English
6 version. If we could go one more -- right. On the right, I now have the
7 B/C/S version.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MS. BIERSAY:
10 Q. We're trying to get you the right page the -- of the English.
11 Okay. Now on the right of your screen, do you see a signature
12 that you recognise on page 23 of the English version?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And whose signature do you recognise that to be?
15 A. It's mine.
16 MS. BIERSAY: In a minute, I will ask for tab 11, which is 65 ter
17 number 6329.1.
18 Q. And that's just a reference to the -- to the Court, Mr. Stoparic.
19 And now directing my attention to you, Mr. Stoparic, I'd like you to
20 summarise your relevant whereabouts from summer of 1991 to the end of
21 1993, to orient the Trial Chamber specifically on a map.
22 And I'll ask you to mark that map.
23 MS. BIERSAY: And if we can give some assistance to Mr. Stoparic
24 in that regard.
25 And now turning to tab 11, 65 ter number 6329.1. And, for the
1 record, it is a map of the southeast part of Croatia with a bit of
2 north-west Serbia depicted.
3 Q. So, Mr. Stoparic, I thought what we could do here is for you to
4 mark and number each place that you've been to and I'll ask you the
5 specific questions in that regard.
6 Now, you describe in your November 2003 statement that in summer
7 1991 you were in Sid, Serbia; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. That's where I live.
9 Q. And could you please draw a circle.
10 A. It's Sid.
11 Q. We're conferring because we are hearing another interpretation in
12 our headphones. Just one minute. Let's try it again.
13 Could you now draw a circle around Sid and put a number 1 next to
14 it, please.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And could you write number 1 next to -- just outside of that
17 circle, if you can. I know it's tricky with that pen.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. From Sid you went to Tovarnik, Croatia, according to your
20 statement; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would kindly ask my colleague to avoid leading
24 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, this is covered in his statement. I'm
25 merely trying to be efficient.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed. Ms. Biersay.
2 MS. BIERSAY:
3 Q. And now, Mr. Stoparic, if you could draw a circle around
4 Tovarnik. If can you see it.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And -- exactly. You've numbered it number 2.
7 Could you describe to the Trial Chamber in what capacity you went
8 to Tovarnik?
9 A. Well, I was a volunteer in the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,
10 Baranja, and Western Srem.
11 Q. To what JNA brigade was that Territorial Defence of the SBWS
12 attached in Tovarnik?
13 A. At the time, there was a motorised brigade from Kraljevo but I
14 don't know its number. It was the Motorised Kraljevo Brigade.
15 Q. From Tovarnik you went to Ilaca, Croatia; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you please draw a circle around Ilaca, writing number 3 to
18 it, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. In what capacity did you go to Ilaca?
21 A. In the same capacity as in the case of Tovarnik. I was a member
22 of the Territorial Defence of the SBWS, or, rather, I was a volunteer for
23 that body.
24 Q. And for the record, Ilaca, I-l-a-c-a.
25 From Ilaca, Mr. Stoparic, you went to Djeletovci; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And could you now please draw a circle around Djeletovci, writing
4 number 4.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And in what capacity did you go to Djeletovci?
7 A. Yet again, I was a volunteer within the Territorial Defence of
8 the SBWS.
9 Q. And do you recall approximately when you were in Djeletovci, on
10 this occasion?
11 A. It was probably at the beginning of September, but I don't know
12 exactly. I've forgotten.
13 Q. From Djeletovci you then went to Lipovaca in Serbia; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now I know that Lipovaca is not on the map. Are you able to
17 locate it, drawing an X in the approximate area.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And could you draw the number, I believe we're now at number 5,
20 next to that X.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. And in what capacity were you in Lipovaca?
23 A. Well, we were still volunteers for the TO of SBWS there.
24 However, we were provided with training. The volunteers were brought up
25 to strength. And then we were renamed. In fact, we were told we would
1 be under the command of the Guards Brigade. It would no longer be called
2 the Kraljevo Brigade. We would no longer be under the Kraljevo Brigade.
3 And then we were to be sent to Vukovar. That's what was said.
4 Q. And from Lipovaca, Serbia, where did you go next?
5 A. Our next destination was Vukovar, or to be more precise,
6 Petrova Gora. First went to Velepromet and -- well, that, in fact is
7 Petrova Gora.
8 Q. When you were in Vukovar, in what capacity were you operating?
9 A. In Vukovar, we joined the Leva Supoderica detachment or unit.
10 And as a detachment, we were under the command of the Guards Brigade.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stoparic. Just one moment, please.
12 MS. BIERSAY: I just looked up and saw that we -- but it's not
13 operative; is that correct? The private ... okay.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct. Thank you.
15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
16 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Stoparic.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Why is that on, Mr. Registrar.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's a good reason. It's broken.
20 MS. BIERSAY:
21 Q. Mr. Stoparic, could you now draw a circle around Vukovar
22 numbering it, I believe that we are now at number 6.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. What was your position within the Leva Supoderica?
25 A. Well, first we arrived at Velepromet where we were issued with
1 new uniforms and we were taken to Nova Ulica from there. That was the
2 name of the place, Nova Ulica, or New Street.
3 Q. Did you have a specific role with respect to Leva Supoderica?
4 Did you have a title?
5 A. For the first three days I was the commander of a detachment, and
6 then up until the end of the war I was a platoon commander.
7 Q. And over --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I was first a squad
9 commander and subsequently a platoon commander.
10 MS. BIERSAY:
11 Q. When you were a platoon commander, over how many squads did you
12 have responsibility?
13 A. Well, there were three squads, I think. Between 38 and 40 men I
14 would say.
15 Q. And when you say "38 to 48 [sic] men," do you mean in each squad
16 or total.
17 A. In total. In the platoon.
18 Q. Now, after Vukovar you were deployed to Bosnia and Herzegovina;
19 is that correct?
20 A. I was in Bosnia and Herzegovina as a volunteer for the Serbian
21 Radical Party, which was also under the command -- it was also under the
22 command of the JNA.
23 Q. I won't ask you to mark that. Now, after Bosnia and Herzegovina
24 you returned to Sid; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. I returned to Sid.
1 Q. And could you put a number 7 next to the number that's already
2 there for Sid, which was your starting point.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. After Sid, you went to Djeletovci again; is that correct?
5 A. Well, yes. I was then a member of the Skorpions unit and their
6 base was in Djeletovci. But I also went to Bosnia with that unit.
7 Q. And at this time could you write, please, the number 8 next to
8 the number that you already have for Djeletovci.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, you describe that you were deployed to -- with the Skorpions
11 to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Could you, in a very summary fashion, tell
12 the Trial Chamber where you went after leaving Djeletovci, Croatia?
13 A. Well, we went to two areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We went to
14 the Bihac battle-field and the other battle-field was the Trnovo
15 battle-field in the vicinity of Sarajevo, in the surroundings of
16 Sarajevo. In fact, there were three areas. There was another one in
17 Velika Kladusa in Cazinska Krajina, the Cazin Krajina.
18 Q. And after Bosnia, where did you go?
19 A. Well, after Bosnia, I went to Djeletovci again and then to Sid
20 and then I was in the JSO reserve force. We returned to the Slavonia,
21 Baranja, and Western Srem again. But that was prior to the Erdut
22 Agreement, and we weren't engaged in combat activity of any kind.
23 Q. Could you explain what you mean by "JSO reserve force." What
24 does JSO stand for? If you -- if you know.
25 A. Well, the JSO is a special unit. They used to call them or they
1 would usually call that unit the Red Berets. And I went from Sid to Tara
2 to Hotel Amerika. We were provided with significant training there, and
3 we were then sent onto Krajina from there. Or, rather, to Slavonia,
4 Baranja, and Western Srem. The JSO was also a unit that belonged to the
5 state security of the Republic of Serbia.
6 Q. When did you end your military career?
7 A. It was in Kosovo in 1999.
8 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, the Prosecution would tender both the
9 marked version of 65 ter number 6329.1 as well as the unmarked version.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The 65 ter document 6329.1 unmarked map shall be
12 assigned Exhibit P1723.
13 And the marked version of this document shall be assigned
14 Exhibit P1724.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. BIERSAY:
17 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, I'd like to go back to your 2003 statement.
18 So if we could go back to tab 1, 65 ter 5977.
19 Now, regarding your November 2003 statement, in preparation for
20 your testimony in the Stanisic and Simatovic case in December of 2010,
21 you had an opportunity to review the statement in your own language; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And based on your review, an amendment to this 2003 statement was
25 prepared in order to make it more accurate; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You made some corrections to the November 2003 statement, and
3 that -- those corrections were recording -- recorded in a separate
4 document and submitted for your review; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. BIERSAY: Now if we could please turn to tab 2. 65 ter
7 number 5976, please.
8 Q. Now, this is a bilingual document. Do you recognise this
9 document, Mr. Stoparic?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?
12 A. Well, those are the amendments that I made.
13 MS. BIERSAY: And if we could scroll to the bottom of that page,
15 Q. Do you recognise the initials at the end of that document?
16 A. Yes. They are my initials.
17 MS. BIERSAY: Now for the record --
18 Q. This is not directed at you, Mr. Stoparic.
19 MS. BIERSAY: For the record this amendment also covers some
20 corrections to a 2005 statement which is not relevant for these
22 There's a second page to this document. Could we please see it.
23 And scrolling to the bottom of this page 2.
24 Q. Do you recognise the initials on that page?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And whose initials do you recognise them to be?
2 A. Mine.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, in relation to this case, the Hadzic case, you
4 again reviewed your November 2003 statement; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you have some additional corrections that you wanted made
7 to that statement?
8 A. I don't know. I think there were no corrections to make.
9 Q. Well, perhaps the word "correction" is not the appropriate word.
10 MS. BIERSAY: Could we turn back to tab 1. 65 ter 5977.
11 And if we could now go to the second page in the -- the English.
12 Specifically going to paragraph 6.
13 Q. In paragraph 6, Mr. Stoparic --
14 MS. BIERSAY: If we could look at the B/C/S version. Thank you.
15 Q. It describes that you joined the volunteers sometime in July of
16 1991. Regarding the July date, is there anything that you'd like to
18 A. Yes, that was probably the end of August or the beginning of
19 September. I'm wrong about -- I was wrong about July. That's too early.
20 Q. And now I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 7.
21 MS. BIERSAY: And the B/C/S -- yes, it's there as well. In
22 paragraph 7, it would be page 3 in the English.
23 Q. You say "TO volunteer," which TO are you referring to in
24 paragraph 7?
25 A. Well, at that time the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja,
1 and Western Srem was established. I mean that TO. It's simply shorter
2 to say just "TO" but I refer to TO SBWS.
3 MS. BIERSAY: And now if we could turn to paragraph 9.
4 Q. Towards the end of that paragraph, the -- the third sentence
5 before the end, it starts: "We were subordinated ..."
6 Do you see that sentence, Mr. Stoparic?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. So it reads:
9 "We were subordinated to the 1st Guards Brigade of the JNA."
10 And this is in reference to your time in Tovarnik. Are there any
11 modifications that you'd like to make to that sentence?
12 A. Yes, that was my mistake. It should read a brigade from
13 Kraljevo. We were not under the Guards Brigade at that time. So I was
14 wrong saying the Guards Brigade. I should have said "a brigade" or "the
15 brigade from Kraljevo."
16 MS. BIERSAY: And now if we could turn to paragraph 17, which is
17 on page 4 of the English. I believe 6 of the B/C/S. 5.
18 Q. The third line, it says:
19 "We were withdrawing from Krajina ..."
20 And I wondered if you could describe to the Trial Chamber what
21 you mean by "Krajina" in that paragraph?
22 A. Well, that's the district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
23 I always referred to it as Krajina, for short. But there was also a
24 Knin Krajina. I usually call them Krajina, but I mean the district of
25 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Now turning to paragraph 32, which I believe is
2 B/C/S, 9, page 9, and English page -- also 9. Oh, excuse me, it's 7.
3 Q. In this paragraph, Mr. Stoparic, you refer to the -- the saving
4 of what's described as a member of the ZNG Croatian National Guard called
5 Damir Lorenzo. Do you see that name?
6 A. Yes. However, I described here the incident where he was abused
7 a little and then rescued, and I thought he was called Damir Lorenzo.
8 However, three years ago I was watching on the Internet a trial before
9 this Tribunal and I saw a man from Croatia, Captain Velin Karlovic, and I
10 recognised him. So it's not Damir Lorenzo. It's that Veljko Karlovic.
11 And I heard him, watching the trial, describe the same event.
12 Q. Now directing your attention to paragraph 52 --
13 MS. BIERSAY: Which is page 11 in the English. And perhaps ...
14 Q. I know that you corrected this in a 2005 statement, Mr. Stoparic.
15 But because we're using the 2003 statement, we have to address it here.
16 Directing your attention to paragraph 52.
17 A. Well, it says at some point I visited the camp in Buna in
18 Podvelezje where volunteers of the radical party were. Actually, I was
19 never there. That's what I corrected. I have never been there.
20 Q. And now directing your attention to paragraph 75, which in
21 English is on page 15.
22 Specifically, I'd refer you to the last part of that sentence.
23 Can you see it in your own language on the screen, Mr. Stoparic?
24 A. Yes, I know. I remember. Here I corrected this part where I
25 joined the Skorpions. There were 200 men. I thought 30 per cent were
1 without experience, 30 per cent were experienced, and 30 per cent were
2 undergoing training in Kula and Tara.
3 What is written here is "Frenki's Red Berets." No, that was not
4 the case. They were just sent there for training. That's where the
5 mistake is. What it says here is "directly from the Red Berets," which
6 is not true. Our men went there for training.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, with those modifications that you've just
8 made, in light of the 2010 amendment, if the Trial Chamber considers your
9 2003 statement in conjunction with the 2010 amendment and the
10 modifications you've made here, would they have an accurate and truthful
11 account of your evidence?
12 A. The Chamber would have a reflection of my testimony which, as far
13 as I know, is truthful and accurate. That is what I have experienced.
14 Q. I'd now like to ask you some additional questions, Mr. Stoparic.
15 First, regarding paragraphs 6 and 41 of your statement, you
16 discuss the nationalist idealogy and propaganda that was happening in the
17 former Yugoslavia in 1991.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MS. BIERSAY: I would now like to play for you what is at tab 94.
20 65 ter number 470.1, and it's a clip from 16 minute and 50 seconds to
21 17 -- we won't start it just yet -- to 17 minute, 34 seconds. And it is
22 from the BBC documentary, "The Death of Yugoslavia." And this is -- the
23 specific clip that's being played is believed to have been during the
24 early part of 1991.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "To this end, extremist allies of President Milosevic set about
2 provoking a conflict between the Serbs and Croats."
3 MS. BIERSAY:
4 Q. Did you recognise the speaker?
5 A. Yes. That's Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian
6 Radical Party.
7 Q. Have you ever met him in person?
8 A. Yes, in Sid. We did not talk on that occasion, but we shook
9 hands when he visited, and for a while I was a member of that party.
10 Q. And now --
11 A. But we talked here in the courtroom. That's where we got to know
12 each bother better.
13 Q. And by that you mean in the Seselj case?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'd now like to direct your attention to this clip pertaining to
16 Plitvice in April of 1991. And it's tab -- tab 97. 65 ter 4990.1.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The Serbian people live here. This
19 is Serbian land. And will forever remain Serbian. Since the decision
20 about establishing the SBWS, he called historic, Dr. Seselj said the
21 following: This, you are the people who are supposed to defend Serbian
22 borders. He promised that nobody -- Serbs in Croatia will not be left on
23 their own. You are heroically led by Dr. Milan Babic. He called
24 traitors those who divide the Serbian people, agents of foreign
25 intelligence services like Ante Markovic are the only ones who believed
1 there are greater problems today and more important things than defending
2 and protecting you. They are selling you to Tudjman. You will not be
3 sold. Instead of calming the crowd, Seselj delivered the following
4 message to the people: We send a message to the Ustasha regime in
5 Croatia: There have been enough Serbian heads that rolled from Ustasha
6 hands. We will avenge Serbian blood."
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. Before I ask you to comment, Mr. Stoparic, could we play it again
9 but without the -- the translation. Just for a moment.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MS. BIERSAY:
12 Q. Do you recognise the person speaking at 23 seconds?
13 A. Yes. That's Vojislav Seselj.
14 Q. And the person standing next to him, do you recognise that
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, these two clips that we've heard these two
18 speeches, how does this compare to the type of propaganda you describe in
19 your statement?
20 A. Well, you have to know that I described it as propaganda after
21 the war. At that time, it was not propaganda to me. At that time, I saw
22 it as a patriotic speech. Seselj delivered many similar speeches.
23 Depending on the year in which he spoke, they varied a little, but -- I
24 don't know what you want me to tell you.
25 Q. Just answering the question the -- in the manner that you find
1 fit is good enough.
2 Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether Seselj was the only one
3 making such speeches?
4 A. No. At that time, there was a number of politicians speaking
5 about the threat of the Serbian people, such as Vuk Draskovic. But
6 Seselj was the one who most influenced my decision to join in the war
7 effort. I thought at the time that he was telling the whole truth, that
8 everything he was saying was true, and, at that time, I didn't even know
9 Serbian history so well. That's what I mean.
10 Q. Mr. Stoparic, in your statement, you describe the -- what's
11 referred to -- I'd like to find the exact wording.
12 You describe that in -- in May 1991, after the events in
13 Borovo Selo an office opened in the local community centre in Sid.
14 Now, before I ask you follow-up questions to that, I'd like to
15 take a look at tab 94, which is 65 ter number 4770.1, and this is a
16 different part. Now we'll look at clip 20 minute, 27 seconds, to 20
17 minute, 47 seconds. And again, it's also from the BBC documentary, "The
18 Death of Yugoslavia."
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "... for protection.
21 MS. BIERSAY:
22 Q. Now, based on what you know about the events, is Mr. Seselj
23 referring to the same Borovo Selo events that you describe in your
25 A. There was only that one incident in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of
1 May, I believe. After that, the war started. But that's the event that
2 he was referring to, yes.
3 Q. In paragraph 6, you describe going to the office of the TO, and
4 you also describe it in paragraph 4, and this office is the recruitment
5 office for the TO SBWS in Sid.
6 Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you
7 heard on the radio about this office before you went in?
8 A. That office was in a building in the centre of Sid. That
9 building housed socio-political organisations, including political
10 parties, Radio Sid, et cetera. The Territorial Defence of the Slavonia,
11 Baranja, and Western Srem had their offices there. That was written on
12 the door and that's where people gathered who had fled Croatia.
13 Yes, there was a Radio Sid, but I understood Radio Sid to say
14 that people who are from Croatia should report at those premises. I
15 didn't understand that people from Serbia could report and apply too.
16 Q. And who was making the statements about people from Croatia
17 reporting to the premises of the TO SBWS?
18 A. Well, there were many activists there, beginning with Seselj's
19 Chetnik movement which later became the Radical Party. I was told by
20 Veljko Petric, and later I saw it for myself and heard it from various
21 people. On the radio, it was announced by the news caster as some sort
22 of press release or statement.
23 Q. Do you know who -- whose press release or statement it was? Or
24 what party that release or statement came from.
25 A. Considering that Seselj's members of the Radical Party were in
1 that building too, it was from somebody from the Chetnik movement or the
2 Radical Party or perhaps the TO of SBWS. But I think it was Seselj's
4 Q. Where geographically was the recruitment office for the TO of
5 SBWS in Sid, Serbia?
6 A. In my town, in Sid, it did not say recruitment office. It was
7 written on the door "TO SBWS," but it was said that that's where people
8 should report and that's where I reported to join. It was in the centre
9 of Sid.
10 Q. What party, if any, was on the first floor of that building?
11 A. The Socialist Party, the Serbian Radical Party, Radio Sid was on
12 the top floor. And there were probably more political parties with
13 offices there, but I can't remember the others. Some shared offices.
14 When the SBWS people left, then the Serbian Radical Party and the
15 Socialist Party had the entire floor to themselves.
16 MS. BIERSAY: Perhaps this would be a good time to tender some of
17 the exhibits that I showed to the witness, Your Honours.
18 At this time we tender the clip from tab 4, 65 ter number 4770.1.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1725, thank you.
21 MS. BIERSAY: And, Your Honours, it would be our intention to
22 combine those two clips. We'd split them up, but just the one exhibit
23 number for the two parts that we played. Just so that the record is
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we do that, Mr. Registrar.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. You do it.
3 MS. BIERSAY: So you'd prefer to have two separate numbers for
4 each part --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Not necessarily. If you combine the two clips.
6 MS. BIERSAY: It has been combined, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: It has been combined.
8 MS. BIERSAY: Yes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Does that satisfy you, Mr. Registrar?
10 MS. BIERSAY: And if it hasn't been, we will certainly do so.
11 It has been combined, from what I understand.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Then we have to -- is it -- we have given
14 it an exhibit number, right?
15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
16 And then the next one would be tab 97, 65 ter 4990.1.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1726, thank you.
19 MS. BIERSAY: And I am mindful of the time, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, this is the end of the hearing
21 today. We will have you back tomorrow morning at 9.00. That means that
22 you're not released as a witness and that you are not allowed to discuss
23 your testimony with anyone, and you are not allowed to talk to any of the
25 Do you understand?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
3 The court usher will escort you out of town -- sorry, out of the
4 courtroom, and we will see you tomorrow at 9.00.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: If there is nothing else to be discussed, court
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of May,
10 2013, at 9.00 a.m.