1 Wednesday, 15 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
12 May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,
14 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
15 Douglas Stringer, Lisa Biersay, Thomas Laugel, and Ivana Martinovic for
16 the Prosecution.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
18 For the Defence. Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
22 The witness may be brought in.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Stoparic. Let me remind you
25 that you are still under oath.
1 Ms. Biersay, please proceed.
2 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 WITNESS: GORAN STOPARIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stoparic.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Yesterday we ended when you were discussing the building where
9 you went to to register as a volunteer with the TO of the SBWS.
10 And this morning, I'd like to pick up on that. And specifically
11 I'd like you to describe to the Trial Chamber the people that you saw and
12 recognised on the day that you went to register.
13 A. Well, the man who I believe was the main person in that office
14 who in the end gave me some sort of certificate was called Filipovic.
15 There were other people there. There were some women in uniform who were
16 making coffee. But that man, Filipovic, I believe, was person number one
17 because when I came I produced my ID, and he said, I don't need your ID.
18 You have to give me your military service book. I didn't have it on me,
19 so I went back home and brought back my military service book because he
20 said the JNA does not allow people who have war-time assignment in their
21 military service book to register. I did not have a war-time assignment,
22 so I was able to register. Then I went to the other building, which was
23 the seat of the peacetime TO. That's where I got a uniform and I got a
24 weapon in an area of Sid called Vasariste.
25 Q. If we could just step back for one moment. Do you recall what
1 Mr. Filipovic was wearing at the time you were in the recruitment office?
2 A. Every time, when I saw him later, including on TV, he was wearing
3 a red jacket. That's how I remember him.
4 Q. You described him as the main person. Did you recognise any
5 other individuals associated with the government of the SBWS?
6 A. I knew all those people. They are from the area. I didn't know
7 this Filipovic, but I knew other people. Some were from Tovarnik or the
8 environs. From the locality. The man who was linked to the government,
9 among others, was a man called Grahovac. I saw him several times too.
10 Q. At this time, turning to tab 18, please, which is 65 ter number
11 443. And it's dated 18 October 1991. And this document was previously
12 discussed with the witness just before Mr. Stoparic.
13 I'd like to direct your attention to the upper right-hand corner
14 where it lists the place and the date. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And --
17 A. Yes. It -- it's probably that certificate or a document made in
18 Sid on 18th of October, 1991, Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and
19 Western Srem.
20 Q. And at the bottom, there is a -- it says "for the chief" and the
21 signature Dusan Filipovic. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Now, directing your attention to the middle of that document, it
25 "The remaining part of the unit is registered with the commander
1 of the unit.
2 "Commander Milan Lancuzanin is responsible for the activities of
3 the unit."
4 And it's referring to the Leva Supoderica detachment. Do you
5 recognise the name Milan Lancuzanin?
6 A. Yes, that's my commander. That was my commander at the time.
7 Milan Lancuzanin, also mean as Kameni.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd move for the admission of 65 ter
10 number 443 please. 65 ter number 443.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't know how the Registrar does this, but he
13 tells me that this is a document part of the Theunens package.
14 MS. BIERSAY: Exactly. And I did mention that it was used with
15 him. As we did with Mr. Theunens where documents that were specifically
16 discussed individually were moved for admission, this separate, and I
17 think because the witness is able to speak about it, it can be admitted
18 separately from the package. Once the package is prepared for
19 consideration, we'll already have a P number for it and it won't be
20 before the Court for consideration.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah. Okay.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1727. Thank you.
23 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
24 Q. You described that you received your weapon from the peacetime --
25 excuse me, your uniform from the peacetime TO. Is that correct? Did I
1 understand that correctly?
2 A. No. That's what I said, but I meant that in that building of the
3 local commune of Sid there were offices even before the war of the
4 Territorial Defence, and from their depots we got uniforms, the old
5 uniforms, the old type. We called them SNB. That means
7 Q. And which TO are we talking about now when you say there are
8 offices even before the war of the Territorial Defence? Do you mean the
9 SBWS or another TO?
10 A. That's most probably the Yugoslav TO or the TO of the Republic of
11 Serbia. I don't know how it was divided then. In my mind, it was the
13 Q. When you went to receive your weapon, what forces were present?
14 A. The Yugoslav People's Army. There was a non-commissioned officer
15 who distributed weapons to us from a case on top of a truck. It was
16 conserved weapons in their lubricant. We had to clean them first. And
17 there by the depots a unit was formed that was headed by Zeljko Krnjajic.
18 He had a deputy named Vojkapic. I was one of the men who received
19 weapons there who tried the weapons to test them to see if they work
21 So it was the Yugoslav People's Army that provided us with
23 Q. Now you describe in your statement that you later went to
24 Tovarnik. Could you describe the -- the convoy that went from Sid to
25 Tovarnik with volunteers?
1 A. We did not go to Tovarnik in a convoy of vehicles. Instead,
2 coming halfway, we got off the Pinzgauers and we deployed in a line: One
3 vehicle, a man, then one vehicle, one man. And then getting closer to
4 Tovarnik we got hand-grenades, and the shooting already started there.
5 Q. And when you say coming halfway, what do you mean? Coming
6 halfway of what? From the journey from Sid to Tovarnik?
7 A. You see, Sid and Tovarnik are very close to one another. From
8 the centre of the village, I can see the square in Tovarnik. It's about
9 5 or 6 kilometres, so somewhere halfway is the border between Serbia and
10 the territory of Tovarnik, which is Croatia. So we were standing right
11 there at the border, and that's where we fanned out.
12 Q. Now, you say that from Sid you could see the square in Tovarnik.
13 Where there any landmarks that you could specifically see from Sid?
14 A. I said that to describe how close it was. You could see the
15 tower of the church. Every village has a church and the type of church
16 depends of the ethnic community which is in the majority there. That's
17 what I meant to say, that we were very close.
18 Q. When you went from Sid to Tovarnik, did you have your weapon with
20 A. I had my automatic rifle, I had a knife that comes with it, I had
21 a combat set of ammunition, and I believe a gas mask as well. And the
22 hand-grenades we received when we were already close to the village of
23 Tovarnik, just before the shooting started.
24 There was a NCO from the Royal Motorised Brigade who distributed
25 hand-grenades to us.
1 Q. Mr. Stoparic, when you say "NCO," what do you mean by that?
2 A. I said officer, and NCO is a non-commissioned officer up to the
3 rank of warrant officer. Second-lieutenant and lieutenant are already
4 officers. I meant the person who works in the army is -- with a
5 mid-level education is an NCO. Those with a high education, with
6 degrees, they are officers.
7 Q. When you participated in the takeover of Tovarnik in September of
8 1991, who are the company commanders of the Territorial Defence of the
10 A. I know about the one to which I belonged. That was
11 Zeljko Krnjajic. I don't know about the others. I don't know who
12 commanded what unit.
13 In that area, even locals of Serb ethnicity joined. The first
14 day they received weapons or they already had weapons. So it's all a bit
15 of a blur. I know about my unit. The commander was Krnjajic and his
16 deputy was Vojkapic. My platoon commander was somebody from Novi Sad. I
17 know his name only, Sasa.
18 Q. From who did you and others in your unit receive orders while you
19 were in Tovarnik?
20 A. From Krnjajic. He issued orders. Or Vojkapic, his deputy.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, in paragraph 12 of your statement --
22 MS. BIERSAY: And, for reference, it is 65 ter number 5977.
23 Q. -- you -- and we don't need to look at it, but you describe
24 seeing many dead bodies of Croatian civilians in the streets of Tovarnik.
25 And my question is: How did you know that those people were Croatians?
1 A. I also saw a Serb woman. I knew it was a Serb woman because she
2 was the grandmother of a friend of mine in Sid. I knew because that
3 village -- I mean, when I say "I knew," I assumed because that village
4 was -- I don't know the exact percentage, but equally populated in an
5 equal ratio between Serbs and Croats, and I suppose that if those bodies
6 were Serb, then their families would have removed the bodies already,
7 taken them away. Since they were lying there, I thought they were
8 Croats. And there were two or three in uniform among them. Uniforms of
9 the Croatian army or police, I don't know.
10 Q. Where were most of these bodies that you saw?
11 A. You have never been in a war, so you don't know, but we went
12 through yards. I saw some bodies in the yards of houses, and the next
13 day I saw several bodies near the petrol station, and the military police
14 was guarding them.
15 Q. Do you know when or how these civilians were killed?
16 A. I don't know. But during the first day of combat operations,
17 there were no bodies there. We passed by the petrol station, but when we
18 went back the next day, they were there.
19 Q. And what information, if any, did you have about what had
20 happened to those people whose body you saw?
21 A. Well, somebody killed them, executed them, or whatever. Maybe
22 the soldiers had taken them out of their own gardens and yards, but I
23 don't believe so. They would have put them on a truck if they had
24 removed then. They were just lying there.
25 Q. I'd now like to move from Tovarnik to Vukovar.
1 Mr. Stoparic, how long before the fall of Vukovar did you arrive
3 A. I arrived in September from the Lipovaca camp and stayed there
4 until the end. I don't know how long that was.
5 I received two months' salaries for that period. Now, how long
6 exactly I spent there, I don't know. They might have overpaid me, like,
7 by five or six days. Anyway, it counted as two months' salary.
8 I had a certificate that I received at Velepromet that I was a
9 member of Leva Supoderica, stating the period when I was at Vukovar.
10 However, a warrant officer took that certificate from me when he was
11 paying out my salary, so I don't know exactly how many days.
12 Q. Where were you paid?
13 A. In Belgrade, at Topcider. It's the barracks of the
14 Guards Brigade.
15 Q. Mr. Stoparic, could you list the -- for the Trial Chamber the
16 forces that were present in Vukovar when you were there, the ones that
17 you knew of.
18 A. Yes, those that I knew about. We were there, the unit of
19 Leva Supoderica. There was the Guards Brigade. In our sector, there was
20 also the Territorial Defence. I will say TO for short. Don't ask me to
21 say every time Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
22 Srem. There was the TO. There were two commanders there. One was
23 Stanko Vujanovic, one was Miroljub. I forget his last name now, but I'll
24 remember it later. That was on our side where I was involved in combat
25 operations. On the other side, there was the Arkan's units and probably
1 the Novi Sad corps. I don't know about any others. There were probably
2 reservists there too. Maybe there were more volunteer groups but I don't
3 know their names and I didn't run into them.
4 Q. When you say "on our side, and then you say "on the other side,"
5 what do you mean by "our side?
6 A. I arrived in Vukovar from the direction of Negoslavci.
7 Petrova Gora. There were other axes, such as Sotin. I believe the
8 operations in Vukovar were divided into south and north. I was on the
9 south side, and I believe those groups in the north were working on the
10 other side of the city. We from Leva Supoderica did Sveto Naselje,
11 Petrovo Brdo, and such.
12 MS. BIERSAY: Could we now please have tab 8, which is 65 ter
13 number 6317, on the screen, please. And this should be a Google map of
14 the Vukovar area that was generated last year.
15 Q. And what I'll ask you to do, Mr. Stoparic, is to identify some
16 locations of the relevant forces that you just described.
17 A. Yes, but it doesn't have to be 100 per cent correct. It's going
18 to be roughly about my unit.
19 Q. Right. But one minute. But one minute, Mr. Stoparic. I just
20 wanted to ...
21 Can you -- can you see clearly those areas that you are familiar
22 with? Just in general.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. So, for example, you describe the south and the north.
25 Could you perhaps draw the dividing line of those two sections?
1 A. I'll draw a dividing line showing the part of the city where I
2 did not go. I believe it's something like this.
3 Q. And which side were you on for the -- the south?
4 A. I can mark where our headquarters was and where we spent the
5 nights when we were not in action. This is Nova Ulica, Nova street, so
6 it's somewhere here, and we slept in these houses around. Two houses
7 here were used as a headquarters. One was a small depot and one was the
8 headquarters of the command.
9 Q. Now if could you draw a circle around those dots that you've made
10 and draw a line to the side and just put number 1 so that later we can
11 follow what the markings are.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. So the houses. And you described Vujanovic as being a commander.
14 Where was he located primarily?
15 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly where he was based. I don't
16 know. But I know where his men were deployed. I can show you that. I
17 know where they held the lines.
18 Q. And where is that, if you could please mark it.
19 A. If this is the 1st of May Street, then they held the line from
20 here to here. Or maybe even up to here. So this sector.
21 Q. And could you mark that with a number 2. I see that you've
22 circled it.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Is Leva Supoderica also a neighbourhood of the Vukovar area?
25 A. As far as I know, there were two neighbourhoods. One was called
1 Leva Supoderica, another was Desna Supoderica. Other neighbourhoods were
2 Petro Gora, Mitnica, and others, and I think it's to the left from where
3 we were.
4 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber -- well, first let me ask
5 you: Did you have a chance to see the Petrova Gora neighbourhood?
6 A. That's how I came to this street. I mean, I went by way of
7 Petrova Gora. Actually, all of this is Petrova Gora, I think. The
8 houses, they were well-preserved. They were not completely destroyed.
9 Anyway, they were inhabitable. They didn't leak. I think that all of
10 this was Petrova Gora.
11 Q. And do you know what the predominant ethnicity was of the
12 Petrova Gora neighbourhood?
13 A. I'm not certain because the whole city was mixed. But I think
14 that by chance it was the Serbs who were the majority in Petrova Gora.
15 But don't take my word for it. There were both Croats and Serbs in the
16 town, but there were also Slovaks and Hungarians and so on. I do
17 believe, though, that the Serbs had the largest share in Petrova Gora.
18 Q. And do you know on this map where the SBWS TO forces were
20 A. Depending on where activities were launched, they were always
21 next to us. We were doing things, they were doing things. Not sure what
22 you mean. I showed you where the front line was at some point. Of
23 course, it moved. But what I described was the situation during the
24 first week. This is the 1st of May Street here, and that's where the
25 front line was. Although I can't see the name of the street here, but
1 this should be it.
2 Q. Could you describe for the Trial Chamber the structure of combat
3 deployment for actions.
4 A. The organisation was as in any other army. There were companies,
5 platoons, squads, and the army would present us their plan. It was
6 usually Captain Zirojevic [phoen] who came to us, or Captain Radic. They
7 would bring aerial maps and then the table of code-names to use, and then
8 they would say where they would -- artillery preparation, where we would
9 go in. We would usually be in the middle, and Miroljub and Stanko would
10 be on the left and right sides respectively.
11 Q. When you say "we," do you mean the Leva Supoderica detachment?
12 A. Yes. Under the command of Kameni. I mean the Leva Supoderica
13 detachment. Because, as far as I know, officially we were volunteers of
14 the Guards Brigade. The TO was separate. Of course, they also had links
15 with the JNA. But most of us at Leva Supoderica were from outside, from
16 Serbia. Although there were locals too. The commander was a local. And
17 there were also other people from the area, the town and the surrounding
19 Q. Regarding Captain Radic, could you describe with what unit or
20 brigade he was with.
21 A. He was an officer of the Guards Brigade. I'm not sure now
22 whether it was the 1st Guards Brigade or whatever the exact name was.
23 I'll simply stick to Guards Brigade. At the time he was a captain.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Stoparic, in your statement, you describe
25 Stanko Vujanovic and Miroljub Vujovic, and I notice that sometimes when
1 you're speaking you refer simply to Stanko and Miroljub, am I correct
2 that when you use those first names, you're referring to those two
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And this is not for you, Mr. Stoparic. I'm trying to fill in the
6 transcript. So you describe in your statement Stanko Vujanovic and
7 Miroljub Vujovic. That's just for the record.
8 When you had these meetings, were Stanko Vujanovic and
9 Miroljub Vujovic always there on time?
10 A. Stanko would mostly come on time, but Miroljub always came late
11 and sometimes didn't come at all. Stanko came more often. Where the
12 headquarters was, I believe that one of the houses close was his own
13 private house. He came often. But when -- whenever there was a meeting,
14 when we would -- we would try to agree how we would go about things,
15 where we would attack, he would always come late. He had his own
16 headquarters because, you know, the TO is actually not the main player in
17 war. It's the JNA. And the TO also had responsibilities toward the
18 district and who knows what they had to do. But that's probably how
19 things were.
20 Q. I'd now like to direct your attention to the day you were serving
21 as a duty officer at the command post of Leva Supoderica. Do you recall
22 that morning?
23 A. Yes. On that day, or, rather, that evening, Ovcara happened.
24 Q. And while you were at the command post, do you recall receiving
25 some urgent phone calls in the morning?
1 A. Well, you see, our commander and many officers, that is, all
2 company commanders, had left for Belgrade. They weren't there. They
3 weren't in Vukovar as all. They went to see Seselj at the Radical Party.
4 And Miroljub called and asked for Kameni a number of times. Then we gave
5 him the phone number of the place where Kameni was and probably he called
6 him there. He didn't call us any longer. Because we had this
7 military-style telephone at our headquarters and Motorolas.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, we still have that marked map on the
9 screen. Is that okay with you?
10 MS. BIERSAY: For now, yes, Your Honour. I will go ahead and
11 tender it now and we can come back to it if need be.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1728.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 MS. BIERSAY:
16 Q. When did you see Kameni that day?
17 A. In the evening, when he got there. Before that, I spoke to him
18 on the spoken. Because I was a duty officer day and night and he had
19 taken everybody else with him, so there was no one to relieve me. I
20 tried a number of times to contact him but he was not available. And he
21 told me, Well, do stay on for a little longer and then there will be
22 someone to relieve you. And then Kinez came, Mare, Djo, Ceca, these are
23 the nicknames of our officers. I will give you their true names later.
24 I may have forgotten some names but I remember most of them.
25 Later he asked for the count of men, and then I went to see the
1 platoon commanders or squad commanders to inquire, and then I gave him
2 the information. And Kameni said, I'm not interested in those who are
3 absent with leave because some did have leave to go and see their
4 families. He was interested in those who had gone AWOL.
5 Q. Mr. Stoparic, you said those names very quickly when you were
6 discussing people who were with Kameni. Could you repeat them again,
7 please, and say them a little bit more slowly so that we can record them
8 on the record.
9 A. All right. Kameni, that's Milan Lancuzanin, the commander. He
10 was accompanied by the commander of the 1st Company, Kinez. His true
11 name is Predrag Milojevic. The 2nd Company commander, I forget his name
12 but we called him Ceca. And there was another commander whose true name
13 I also forget but we called him Mare, and one more commander who we
14 called Mali Djo, little Joe. I may remember some names later, but we
15 usually call each other by nicknames so that's why I remember those
17 Q. What does the nickname Kinez mean?
18 A. Kinez, it means the Chinese in English, or Chinaman. He had
19 almond eyes.
20 Q. I'd like to now direct your attention, and I'd like you to
21 actually see it so you know what I mean. This is tab 1, your statement,
22 65 ter number 5977. And in the English, it would be on page 8,
23 paragraph 36.
24 Now in 36 --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you very much for the reminder.
2 Q. There's a sentence that reads:
3 "They returned around noon."
4 Do you see that sentence? And you're talking about Kameni, Ceca,
5 Kinez, and Djo. And when you say they returned around noon, where did
6 they return to?
7 A. Probably to Vukovar because he called me. He couldn't have
8 called me from Belgrade using a Motorola. Or, actually, that's wrong. I
9 called him a number of times, and then once he actually answered.
10 Q. And then -- so if I understand you correctly, they returned
11 around noon to the Vukovar area, and that's where you believe they
12 contacted you by Motorola?
13 A. Not all. Only the commander, Kameni. I saw them on that
14 evening, when they all came to the headquarters.
15 Q. And how -- how is it that, in your mind, you're giving the time
16 of when they came to the headquarters?
17 A. Well, you see, it was November. Around 5.00 it -- it gets dark.
18 Maybe even earlier. But I'm not sure I really understand your question.
19 You mean based on what I know that they actually -- actually came in the
20 evening? Well, because it was evening. It was dark.
21 Q. So you remember --
22 A. The lights were on.
23 Q. You remember the time, is that --
24 A. That's what I remember, yes. I don't know what else to say.
25 That's how I remember it.
1 Q. Now, when you first began answering the question, you said it was
2 the day of -- or the day of the Ovcara killing. How soon did you learn
3 about the Ovcara killings?
4 A. I didn't know back then or at that moment. But I asked Kameni,
5 What's happening? Why do you need the numbers of those present? And
6 then he said, Things are happening that shouldn't be happening. And a
7 few hours later, the first rumours arrived about large-scale executions.
8 I didn't know it was about Ovcara though. Only on the following day I
9 learned that the site of the killings was Ovcara.
10 Q. Mr. Stoparic, I'd now like to fast forward --
11 A. And, excuse me, a soldier of mine also told me - a platoon
12 commander - he said that he had been at Ovcara and that he had killed
13 people with his knife. I didn't believe him, of course. But now he is
14 convicted. He got 20 years' of imprisonment in Belgrade.
15 Q. What is his name?
16 A. Djordje, Soskic. He was in my platoon. I was his platoon
18 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Stoparic, in either 2002 or 2003 when
19 you had a meeting with Kameni, Ceca, and Kinez?
20 A. Well, I didn't really socialise with Kameni, but we met every
21 day. We lived in the same town. He had a number of cerebral strokes
22 though and he was an invalid, and he would always call me or a relative
23 of his when he to go somewhere because he was afraid of going by car on
24 his own. So I was there to help him with his private affairs, and once
25 rumours started spreading that the Ovcara incident would be taken to
1 court in Serbia, they started meeting to decide what to say when the
2 police started interviewing them. Kinez was even interviewed and
3 connected to a polygraph. I think, though, that most of what they said
4 was actually true. Of course, I don't really know what happened at
5 Ovcara because I didn't see any of that.
6 Q. Did Kameni have a point of view about what was to be said about
7 the time that he arrived at the command post where you were?
8 A. I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but they must have
9 arrived at the command post earlier and that they had been at Ovcara and
10 seen what was happening, that Kameni tried to save a neighbour but
11 Miroljub didn't let him. And Kameni told his people, Let's get out of
12 here. And that was the story.
13 And I can neither corroborate nor deny it because I wasn't there.
14 But I told you when he came to the headquarters, it was evening-time.
15 And during the day, we spoke to each other, that's true. But what really
16 happened there, I can only suppose and stick to the Belgrade judgements.
17 They were all convicted, all but one who was acquitted. Everybody else
18 was convicted. Mare was acquitted, I think.
19 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] If I could have one
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, I'd like to play a clip. It's found
23 at tab 95, and it's 65 ter number 4885.1. And I will be playing this
24 without the sound.
25 And after watching parts of this clip, then I'll show some stills
1 and ask Mr. Stoparic if he recognises the people.
2 Q. So, Mr. Stoparic, we'll just let this -- this run and then I'll
3 ask you about it at the end.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MS. BIERSAY: Pause it, please.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry -- sorry. I don't why this clip is without
8 sound. It has the sound.
9 MS. BIERSAY: It does have a sound. I'm not asking Mr. Stoparic
10 to opine on the contents. It's merely for identification of the people.
11 And if the -- I believe the interpreters do have the transcript that we
12 delivered, but I'm not asking Mr. Stoparic about the sound.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. BIERSAY:
16 Q. I'd like to talk about the very last image that we saw in this
18 MS. BIERSAY: And, for the record, this clip goes from 02 hours,
19 49 minutes, 21 second, to 02 hours, 49 minutes, 37 seconds; and then to
20 02 hour, 52 minute, and 25 seconds to 02 hour and 59 minutes and 37
22 Q. Just re-playing it because what I'd like to do is freeze at the
23 very end and ask if you recognise anyone. I know you recognised some
24 people in this part, but we don't talk about this right away.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MS. BIERSAY:
2 Q. Mr. Stoparic, do you recognise the person at 02 hour, 52 minutes,
3 and 45 seconds?
4 A. Yes. This is the man who I mentioned who boasted to me. I was
5 his platoon commander. His name is Djordje Soskic and he is from
7 Q. What is he wearing because there are two men in that frame?
8 A. Well, yeah, one of them is a civilian and the other is wearing a
9 short jacket probably from some house. It's -- we called this kind of
10 jacket spit-fire jacket. It was called, you know.
11 He was a soldier but he was wearing a civilian jacket over his
13 Q. And at this time we tender 65 ter number 4885.1.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Out of abundance of caution, Ms. Biersay, which
15 one of the two persons did the witness identify? Because that's not
16 clear from his answer.
17 MS. BIERSAY: Perhaps I can assist with the next exhibit, which
18 will be 4885.2, the stills. That may assist.
19 I wanted to freeze it here because this is actually a better
20 image than the still I'm about to show --
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, but I'm sure the witness knows who he is
22 talking about. But is the man he names the civilian or the military
23 person with the helmet?
24 MS. BIERSAY:
25 Q. Mr. Stoparic, the man that you named, is he on the right or the
1 left of this frame?
2 A. It's the man on the right, wearing a helmet.
3 Q. And is that the man who was in -- over whom you had command, who
4 told you about Ovcara?
5 A. Yes, yes. Djordje Soskic, nicknamed Zordze, Djordje.
6 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we tender 65 ter 4885.1.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, with or without transcript? Because
9 this -- this 65 ter number has both.
10 MS. BIERSAY: Correct. Without the transcripts, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1729. Thank you.
13 MS. BIERSAY: And now if we could turn to 65 ter number 4885.2,
15 Q. Mr. Stoparic, directing your attention to page 1 of this exhibit,
16 and specifically to the left, the man that we see in that left corner, do
17 you recognise that man?
18 A. Yes. It's Predrag Miljevic, nicknamed Kinez, commander of the
19 1st Company of the Leva Supoderica Unit. You can see why they called him
20 Chinaman; he has slit eyes.
21 Q. Mr. Stoparic, would you be so kind as to take that electronic pen
22 and circle the person you just described.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And I think in order --
25 MS. BIERSAY: We have several more pages, but I think in order to
1 capture the mark I'll have to tender this page now. If it works
2 technologically, I can wait to the end as well.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, so --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm just wondering whether we are adding
6 documents unnecessary. I mean, there's only one -- one person in the
7 left corner of this picture. So what is the marking -- what is the use
8 of the marking?
9 MS. BIERSAY: If the Court does not find it helpful, then I'm
10 happy to move onto the next -- to the next one.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think it's helpful.
12 MS. BIERSAY: So if we could now move to the second page of this
14 Q. Do you recognise anyone in this still?
15 A. Yes. The one on the far left is the man nicknamed Ceca. He was
16 also a commander in the Leva Supoderica Unit.
17 MS. BIERSAY: And is the Trial Chamber satisfied that it's
18 properly identified?
19 And the next page, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here -- can I -- can I speak.
21 MS. BIERSAY:
22 Q. Yes, please.
23 A. On the far right we see again Ceca, the man from the previous
24 picture. The one on the left is Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni,
25 wearing eyeglasses.
1 Q. And by eyeglasses, do you mean dark glasses, sun-glasses?
2 A. Yes. That's Milan Lancuzanin, aka Kameni. And the one on the
3 right is the man from the previous photograph, nicknamed Ceca.
4 MS. BIERSAY: And the next page, please.
5 Q. Do you recognise anybody in this still?
6 A. Yes. This is Topola. Again, I forget his real name. The man
7 wearing this hat who's -- like has his hand on the child's head is
8 Topola, in the centre of the picture.
9 Q. And if we could now move to the next page, please. And I know
10 it's a bit blurry, but do you recognise anyone in this one?
11 A. Yes. That's Djordje Soskic.
12 Q. Thank you Mr. Stoparic.
13 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, we tender 65 ter number 4885.2.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1730. Thank you.
16 MS. BIERSAY:
17 Q. Mr. Stoparic, I have a clarifying question.
18 Previously when we were discussing the -- the meetings, the
19 briefings, held with Captain Radic, and I will read it to you. It says:
20 "The TO is actually not the main player in war. It's the JNA.
21 And the TO also had responsibilities toward the district and who knows
22 what they had to do."
23 When you say "toward the district," what do you mean by that?
24 A. When I say who knows what they had to do, I meant to say God
25 knows what other duties they had. And as for the district, at that time,
1 they had formed an autonomous district and they had their own government
2 or a Crisis Staff, that's what I meant. They participated in the war and
3 it's basically from that Territorial Defence that the police force was
4 later established and the Army of the Serbian Krajina. The TO was the
6 MS. BIERSAY: And now moving to tab 99, which is 65 ter number
7 4809.7, and the time code runs from 00 to 3 minutes and 39 seconds.
8 Q. So I'm going to ask that the video be played. And at some point,
9 I'm going to pause it and ask if you recognise the -- the background
11 [Video-clip played]
12 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This is the first session of the
13 government held in our future capital of our Serb region of Slavonia,
14 Baranja, and Western Srem, regarding the conclusions in addition to those
15 connected with the normalisation of life and the restoration of the
16 normal situation. One of the basic conclusion is the prisoners, Ustashas
17 with blood on their hands may not leave the territory of the SBWS. They
18 cannot go to Serbia ..."
19 MS. BIERSAY: At this I asked that the video be paused.
20 Q. Do you recognise the background of this image?
21 A. Yes. That's my town, Sid. This is the municipal building. Next
22 to it is the police building.
23 Q. And --
24 A. Unless the street name is changed, this could be Sava Sumanovic
25 Street or it could be Karadjordjevo Street. I haven't lived there for a
1 long time so I don't know, but this is the centre of the town.
2 Q. And do you recognise the military uniform in that still?
3 A. Yes. That was the TO SBWS uniform. It was the -- the green
4 fatigues. I remember when they issued this uniform.
5 Q. I'd ask that we continue playing this video.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Reporter: ... because Serbia is a
8 state which is not at war. Also, the troops that assisted in the
9 capturing, they're not real soldiers, they're paramilitaries. Only our
10 people of our Serb region which is recognised can try them. The appeals
11 court would perhaps be at the Yugoslav level, the federal level, but the
12 first instance trial would be here before our authorities. The agreement
13 is with the military authorities that they would remain in some of our
14 camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar, since one group was already taken
15 to Sremska Mitrovica. I undertook the task to return these people, if
16 they can be called humans at all, to return them there and to put them to
17 trial. How do you estimate the total number of those members of the
18 Croatian paramilitaries? We have -- hear different figures: 200
19 surrendered two nights ago, approximately 1 .000 today, so what numbers
20 are we talking about?
21 "Hadzic: I believe the number is close to 3.000, roughly 3.000
22 of mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are still many hiding among
23 the civilians. However, there are many honest people as well. Our
24 primary task is to investigate everything and not to let anyone who is
25 innocent get hurt or harassed. It's better to have culprit slip through
1 than to harm somebody innocent. That is our task and we have our own
2 legal and police authorities, so we'll work to prevent any prosecution of
3 innocent people.
4 "How is the establishment of the civilian rule in Vukovar going
6 "Well, today was the first step. We have been prepared for this
7 event. Unfortunately was overly optimistic thinking that Vukovar was not
8 to devastated. Today, when I saw it, I think there no words to describe
9 it. Literally. There is not a single undamaged house. There are even
10 bodies still strewn in the street; thus, we first have to have our
11 Ministry of Health and our medics or the vets prevent contagion, remove
12 those corpses, and then we have to start normalising life. The people
13 who carried out this fight on their backs, those are people from
14 Petrova Gora, without them this struggle of ours for Vukovar would have
15 been lost. I'm using this opportunity to thank them for what they've
16 done. We've scheduled our next meeting for tomorrow with one group of
17 ministers and the representatives of those people to find bodies to -- to
18 found bodies, to establish civilian rule in town. It's agreed with
19 military authorities that civilian authorities will soon take over.
20 "Does it imply that you will take off your uniform soon?
21 Hadzic: Well I'm the representative of the Serb people, elected
22 by the Serbs. If the Serb people who appointed me believe that the
23 borders are now satisfactory I will take off my uniform, but I personally
24 believe that I should keep it on for some time yet."
25 MS. BIERSAY:
1 Q. Mr. Stoparic, reference was made to the people from Petrova Gora.
2 To whom do you believe this to refer to?
3 A. Well, he said it: TO from Petrova Gora.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, at this time we'd ask that this clip
5 be marked for identification. I understand that it was not in the bundle
6 of videos yet received by the Registrar.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: And is that why you asked it to be marked for
9 MS. BIERSAY: Correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, okay.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1731, marked for
12 identification. Thank you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.
14 MS. BIERSAY:
15 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether Leva Supoderica was
16 associated with any political parties?
17 A. When I just arrived, I didn't know that. However, at the lineup
18 Kameni told us, although there was another officer who was there. I was
19 not sure at the time who was the real commander the first two days.
20 There was another officer, Zoran Paripovic, nicknamed Tito. The two of
21 them were the main two. They said that most of the men were sent by the
22 Serbian Radical Party from Serbia. I was not one of those. But I found
23 out then that the Serbian Radical Party organised volunteer groups, and
24 later I became myself a member of such volunteer units in other areas of
25 Yugoslavia later.
1 Q. In this context I'd now like to turn to tab 93, which is 65 ter
2 number 4760.1.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, for one moment, Your Honour.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MS. BIERSAY:
7 Q. Before we play that video, I'd like to ask you some questions
8 about who co-ordinated the organisation of the SRS volunteers and to send
9 them to other areas. Do you recall who in the SRS was responsible for
11 A. You see, at the HQ of the party in Belgrade, there was a Crisis
12 Staff during the war. And in that Crisis Staff there was
13 Zoran Drazilovic and Ljubisa Petkovic. Ljubisa Petkovic, I believe, was
14 the head of the Crisis Staff and he was the co-ordinator. He organised
15 the volunteers.
16 Q. And could you describe to the -- the -- the Trial Chamber how
17 they were actually moved from Belgrade to other places where they were
19 A. First, you go to Belgrade, to that Crisis Staff, and then a file
20 is opened for you; that is to say, if you are a new-comer. They take
21 your ID and they take down your personal data, including specific
22 features, such as birth marks, tattoos, et cetera, and from there you go
23 to Bubanj Potok which is the barracks of the JNA near Belgrade, and there
24 we undergo a short training. We get equipment and weapons. And from
25 there, I departed twice from that same place, we went through the
1 airport, and from there to the Banja Luka airport and the Bihac airport.
2 That's how we travelled. Sometimes we travelled by bus to Herzegovina.
3 It depends.
4 Q. And now turning to tab 93, 65 ter number 4760.1. And my
5 intention is to play the -- the clip, and perhaps towards the end I will
6 stop it to ask you if you recognise anyone.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Well, good look. Maybe a good
9 mediator for these conflicts would be if not Arkan then, for example,
10 Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian Radical Party. He has not
11 reached Mostar yet, but today he stayed on Mount Romanija.
12 "Reporter: On the first day of the referendum
13 Dr. Vojislav Seselj, the Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda and the president of the
14 Serbian Radical Party, arrived today in Republika Srpska. As soon as he
15 arrived he crossed the Drina river, he went to visit our defenders on the
16 first line of defence. Afterwards, he visited Knezina, a village and
17 monastery in free Serbian Romanija, the oath of the new Serbian Chetnik
19 "Unknown man: Order number 124. As the only Chetnik Vojvoda
20 directly engaged in the present-day struggle for the liberation of the
21 Serbian people and following the tradition of Serbian Chetniks, for
22 exceptional achievements in this war, great heroism, and proven arts of
23 war of the most distinguished Chetnik commanders I hereby pronounce ...
24 "Report: Romanija, a mountain that does not speak to its
25 enemies, rejoiced at the oath of 18 new Vojvodas, an oath it had not
1 heard for 50 years.
2 "The Vojvodas: I swear as the Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda ..."
3 MS. BIERSAY:
4 Q. I ask that the video be paused, Mr. Stoparic, and referring to
5 your statement in paragraph 5, you described that there were 19 SRS
6 Vojvodas and you describe what was required in order to become a Vojvoda
7 that you had to have 500 volunteers under your control. Is this
8 consistent with the proclamations of the Vojvodas that you describe in
9 your statement in paragraph 5.
10 A. Well, I heard that figure, 500, from Kameni when he became a
11 Vojvoda. He was saying that there should be no less than 500 volunteers
12 so that they can be raised at any time. But Seselj did not give this
13 title only to commanders. Also to politicians, people from the Crisis
14 Staff, including the Ljubisa Petkovic and the current present of Serbia,
15 Tomislav Nikolic. Not all of those who received the title had been in
16 the war. Some of them would not survive two minutes of combat.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 A. In Seselj's opinion, they deserve it for other reasons. Here on
19 the photo we see Kameni.
20 Q. And you're specifically discussing 1 minute and 27 seconds. And
21 what -- where is Kameni?
22 A. In the centre. He is holding the candle lower than the men
23 around him.
24 Q. And --
25 A. Fair hair. Not one with the dark hair, the one with fair hair.
1 Q. Was he named as a Vojvoda before or after Vukovar?
2 A. Not before Vukovar. Nobody was given the title before. It was
3 after. First of all, they had to deserve this honour.
4 MS. BIERSAY: If we could please continue the video.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Seselj I swear to God and
7 Saint Sava.
8 "The men repeat.
9 "Seselj: That I will fight with all my might for the freedom of
10 the Serbian people.
11 "The men repeat.
12 "Seselj: And the restoration of a unified Serbian state in the
13 Balkans which will encompass all Serbian lands.
14 "The men repeat the oath.
15 "Seselj: So God help me.
17 "Good luck and bless you. May God give you a long life.
18 "Reporter: One can trust, then, that it's indeed going to be so.
19 The rank of Chetnik Vojvoda was bestowed on these Serbian heros from all
20 Serbian areas: Zdravko Abramovic; Branislav Vakic; Srecko Radovanovic;
21 Slavko Crnic; Nedeljko Vidakovic; Slavko Aleksic; Mitar Maksimovic,
22 Manda; Miroslav Vukovic, Cele; Milika Dacevic, Ceko; Tomislav Nikolic;
23 Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni; Zoran Drazinovic, Cica; Jovo Ostojic; Ljubisa
24 Petkovic; Todor Lazic; Mirko Blagojevic; Dragan Cvetkovic; and
25 Branislav Gavrilovic, Brne."
2 MS. BIERSAY:
3 Q. In addition to Kameni, did you recognise anybody else in that
4 video we just saw?
5 A. Yes, many. Apart from Seselj there was Drazilovic,
6 Ljubisa Petkovic, Tomislav Nikolic, those who I know by name. Then
7 Vojvoda Manda from Ugljevik, then the one from Sarajevo. I recognise all
8 of them. I just can't give you their names now. Later on I saw them in
9 various theatres of war. Others were very often on television.
10 Blagojevic was there. Mirko from Bijeljina. Then Branislav Lakic from
11 Nis. I recognised many of them. But they are wearing those long beards
12 and they're all -- they all look the same in this picture.
13 Q. And for the Vukovar operations, which ones did you recognise from
14 that specific operation?
15 A. Kameni. Although some other Vojvodas said later they had been at
16 Vukovar. Maybe. But not in my sector. Even the one from Nis, the
17 Vojvoda from Nis. He was also in Vukovar. But out of all those
18 radicals, Kameni was the main one for me. He was my commander but also a
19 better man, as far as I'm concerned. And I knew him better.
20 Q. And at this time we tender 65 ter number 4760.1.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1732. Thank you.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 MS. BIERSAY: And I do see the time, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Biersay.
1 Mr. Stoparic, this is the moment we take the first break. We
2 will be back at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of the
3 courtroom. Thank you.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
8 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness
9 to be brought in, I understand that the Registrar has now received the CD
10 containing the clip for MFI 1731, and so I believe now it can receive an
11 exhibit number.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: That will be 1731 --
13 MS. BIERSAY: Correct.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- Mr. Registrar. Okay. Thank you.
15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.
18 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Stoparic, I'm hoping that the remaining of my questions will
20 take about 20 minutes or so. I want to quickly talk about Velepromet,
21 then move to a brief discussion on the Skorpions, and then I will show
22 you a video, so that's where I'm going.
23 In your 2003 statement in paragraph 38, you mentioned that you
24 had not heard of a meeting held at Velepromet in which Goran Hadzic
25 participated, and my question to you is: Did you ever have occasion to
1 see anyone connected with the SBWS government in Velepromet, in general?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The question is vague.
3 MS. BIERSAY: Well, I suppose we could see if the witness
4 understood it, and I'm happy to clarify, if need be.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah. Okay. Would you be more precise, the
6 question would become leading, wouldn't it?
7 MS. BIERSAY: Indeed.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
9 MS. BIERSAY:
10 Q. So, Mr. Stoparic, did you ever see any representatives of the
11 SBWS government in Velepromet?
12 A. Well, the TO commanders and the like. But as for government
13 officials, I didn't really know them all. I would have recognised
14 Goran Hadzic if I had seen him. Filipovic, Grahovac too, and another man
15 I would certainly recognise but I forget his name.
16 I did go to Velepromet to get cigarettes and movement permits in
17 the area of combat activity and permits to leave Vukovar, but I don't
18 really remember seeing any one of these people.
19 Q. Was there an office for the SBWS government in Velepromet?
20 A. During the war, I don't know. There was some warehouses there.
21 There were soldiers and the TO. Probably some civil administration, too.
22 But if it was the government or whether it was administration at town
23 level, there were various people. There was even a kitchen. Some sort
24 of administration, yes, but I'm not sure about the level they were at.
25 I'm speaking about the period of combat activity. I don't know about any
1 later time.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stoparic. I'd now like to move to your time at
3 Djeletovci with the Skorpions, and very briefly could you describe to the
4 Trial Chamber what armed force -- to what armed force the Skorpions
5 belonged? I know there's a complex history but if you could just make it
6 as short as possible.
7 A. Officially speaking, the Skorpions were part of the Army of the
8 Republic of Serbian Krajina. The commander was General Loncar, or
9 Loncarevic. There were also security forces from Serbia who came in
10 often and people were trained there. There were security structures, the
11 police, and we even had a working relationship with the oil industry of
12 Krajina. Once I received an envelope from them with German marks, then
13 some money went to Belgrade in Yugoslav dinars, and I also received money
14 from a third source, that's the commander, or sometimes he would give me
15 petrol, a barrel or two, or other times he would give me German marks.
16 It was complicated.
17 The basic task at the Djeletovci base was holding our position.
18 There was the Bosut river and that was a natural border between the
19 then-district of SBWS and the rest of Croatia, and we protected the oil
20 terminal there. And our secondary tasks were connected with our going to
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But after the Skorpions were disbanded and then we
22 gathered again, we even went to Kosovo.
23 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 72 of your
24 statement. You talked about the Tigers being based in Erdut and the Red
25 Berets, the JSO, being in Ilok, and the Skorpions in Djeletovci. Who was
1 in charge of the Tigers?
2 A. Arkan. And the JSO, they were at Ilok, in a wine cellar in the
3 direction of Sid called Pajzos. They had a base there, too. It was on
4 the very border between Serbia and Croatia. Pajzos is situated on the
5 very border, so a part of the base would be in Serbia and another part in
7 Q. I'd like to --
8 A. There was a --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
10 of his answer.
11 MS. BIERSAY:
12 Q. Could I ask you, Mr. Stoparic, for the benefit of the transcript,
13 could you repeat the last thing that you said.
14 You were discussing Pajzos being on the very border, partly in
15 Serbia and another part in Croatia.
16 A. That's where the members of the JSO were or whatever they called
17 themselves at the time because they were changing names. JSO was the
18 last name. And their commander was Franko Simatovic, and they were
19 directly under the state security administration. They were part of the
20 state security.
21 Q. You describe also in paragraph 72:
22 "We were all" -- "we were all right along the border with
24 Why was the deployment concentrated along the border with Serbia?
25 A. Because -- actually, it wasn't an observation of mine. I heard
1 it from people. Because you can always go into action, leave fast, and
2 return fast. Their actions probably weren't public.
3 Q. And when you say "leave fast and return fast," what do you mean
4 by that?
5 A. Well, because you can never say that the unit belongs to SBWS.
6 They're in Serbia and officially they don't take part in the war
7 activities. That's where they were along the border.
8 Ilok itself is a town in Croatia. On the other side of the
9 river, there's Backa Palanka in Serbia. And the Skorpions went a bit
11 Q. Mr. Stoparic, have you ever met Milan Martic?
12 A. Yes, twice. At two different periods. Once I met him when he
13 came to visit us. We were in an improvised base near Gospic. And the
14 second time it was in the surroundings of Livno in a nearby village.
15 Mount Dinara, that region. That's where I saw him for the second time.
16 Q. I'd now like to play a video and ask you if you recognise any of
17 the speakers. And I'm now moving to tab 98, which is 65 ter number
18 4990.2. And, for the record, it's from 1 hour, 1 minute, and 1 second,
19 to 1 hour, 2 minute, and 52 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MS. BIERSAY: I'd like to -- we did deliver some transcripts and
23 I'm wondering -- I just wanted to confirm if the interpreters have the
24 transcript pertaining to this video-clip.
25 THE INTERPRETER: We have just found it.
1 MS. BIERSAY: So at this time we'll begin from the beginning.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Anyway, the questions are becoming
4 more specific: Did Arkan attend the government session where the
5 minister of defence was discussed? In which capacity? Who brought his
6 unit and is his unit for combat or for creating public order and peace?
7 "Answer: This is a string of questions. I can answer all.
8 Indeed, Arkan was present at the government session. And before the
9 beginning of the government session everyone knows I requested that only
10 the ministers be present because we were discussing important issues, but
11 the prime minister replied telling me that if I met Mr. Raznjatovic, he
12 was a member of the government. I was astonished and asked if we was
13 with internal affairs or defence. I didn't know. I made a small joke.
14 No, he said, he's the special advisor to President Hadzic. President
15 Hadzic himself confirmed that he was a special advisor and that he was
16 entitled to attend this session. All I could do was go along with it.
17 As far as his volunteer units are concerned, they're welcome in the
18 Republic of Serbian Krajina to fight same as all the other volunteers."
19 MS. BIERSAY:
20 Q. And the image that is on your screen, Mr. Stoparic, do you
21 recognise that man?
22 A. This is Mr. Milan Martic.
23 MS. BIERSAY: And at this time we'd move for admission of 65 ter
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object because there is no nexus between
2 the statement of Mr. Martic and witness evidence. And for the purpose of
3 recognition, video still is enough.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
5 MS. BIERSAY: Our position is that the witness has spoken about
6 Arkan Tigers when in Djeletovci in 1993. And here we have Milan Martic,
7 a man whom he's met, who he recognises, who is speaking about the
8 connection between Goran Hadzic and Arkan. So we believe it's directly
9 relevant to the topics covered in his statement.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: But there was no nexus between evidence of this
11 witness and the -- the statement about relations between Goran Hadzic and
12 Milan Martic from this video.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Objection sustained.
15 Ms. Biersay, you'll have to try to get this one in through
16 another witness.
17 MS. BIERSAY: I understand, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Stoparic, you spent 1991 to 1997 in the various armed forces
19 throughout the former Yugoslavia. How does Vukovar stand out in your
20 total war experience?
21 A. Well, it's no secret. This was the first serious experience.
22 Tovarnik was my first action, but it doesn't carry such weight. Vukovar
23 was worst. When I went to Bosnia and the local commanders would learn
24 that I was a veteran of the Vukovar theatre, they would always treat me
25 with respect. Vukovar was worst. Even in Kosovo while NATO was bombing,
1 it wasn't so bad as in Vukovar. Or perhaps it's just my impression.
2 Q. At this time, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter number 5977, the
3 2003 statement, as well as 5976, which is the addendum.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would object because this
6 statement is incomplete because --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which one, the first one?
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: First one.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 5977. Because the witness gave additions to his
11 statement on 10 December 2003, and he gave many corrections and
12 clarifications of this particular statement in approximately more than 20
14 So I see it is -- it was not addressed by the Prosecution. And I
15 have only -- it is in our tab, Defence tab 4, I only have a redacted
16 version of these additions, and I don't know whether the witness signed
17 these additions or not but ...
18 MS. BIERSAY: The first question regarding corrections and
19 additions, the witness addressed all additions -- all corrections in
20 the -- which is 65 ter number 5976, they were tendered together in the
21 Stanisic and Simatovic case without tendering the -- the material that
22 Mr. Zivanovic is discussing, which was not signed by the witness as our
23 record indicates, and he has made his fresh corrections to the -- the
24 statement here in this courtroom.
25 Now, are there topics that were addressed in either -- in
1 subsequent statements? Yes. But are we seeking to elicit those
2 additional bits of information? No, we're not. And so we think, as far
3 as the accuracy of his statement, it is it now accurate as he has
4 described it to the Trial Chamber with what he has described in this
5 courtroom and with the addendum. And that's how they also proceeded in
6 the Stanisic and Simatovic case.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: The rest seems to be material eventually for
8 cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I'll use it. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the statement under 65 ter number
12 5977 shall be assigned Exhibit P1733.
13 And the addendum with the 65 ter number 5976 shall be assigned
14 Exhibit P1734.
15 Thank you.
16 MS. BIERSAY: And that concludes my direct examination,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Biersay.
19 Mr. Zivanovic, when you -- when you use that other statement or
20 those corrections, I would remind you of our practice not to admit other
21 statements. So if you use it, you'll read it into the record. So -- the
22 questions you ask will comprise what is -- whatever is in -- in those --
23 in those corrections, and we'll get the answers from the witness.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I'll comply with your orders. Thank you.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stoparic. My name is
3 Zoran Zivanovic. I am the Defence counsel of Goran Hadzic in this trial.
4 I will start with what we spoke about just now. I have a
5 Prosecution document dated 10 December 2003 entitled annex to your
6 statement of your -- of the 21st to 24th December -- or November 2002.
7 It's document number 1D322.
8 I only have the English version. I don't know if it was
9 translated. But let me ask you if you remember that in December 2003,
10 you spoke to representatives of the OTP about your statement that you
11 gave from the 21st to the 24th of November, which you also spoke about
12 and had an opportunity to read it.
13 Do you remember that you spoke to them; and did you then clarify
14 or correct some things in your statement?
15 A. I don't really remember each and every conversation, but if you
16 scroll down and if I see the names of the investigators, I'm sure I'll
17 remember. I mean, I do remember but I would remember more easily if
18 could I see the names of the investigators.
19 Q. The names are mentioned here are Gerry Sexton and Dorian Barag.
20 Do you remember this interview? I'm not going to ask you about each and
21 every paragraph. I'll limit myself to some things that are interesting
22 to us and concern your statement.
23 First of all, I'm interested in the correction to paragraph 4.
24 I'll read it out to you in English and you will then hear:
25 [In English] "I don't know exactly when the TO SBWS office in Sid
1 was opened, but I'm sure it was after May 1991 and the events in
2 Borovo Selo."
3 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] I'm having a problem
4 with my microphone, I think ...
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Probably my fault again, Ms. Biersay.
6 MS. BIERSAY: This one seems to be working.
7 I -- I rise just to say that I have a B/C/S version, I believe,
8 of this document, which I'd like to have the record reflect is an
9 internal memorandum which is why it was redacted because it was not a
10 witness statement reviewed by the witness but meant for internal
12 I'm happy to give this to either Mr. Zivanovic or to the witness,
13 if it would assist either one of them, as it is in B/C/S.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, it will be very helpful, indeed.
15 MS. BIERSAY: So I think perhaps for the witness, it may be best.
16 Now I think it is, as it is in B/C/S, I -- I think that's ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 4?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC:
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. You want me to explain what I meant by this?
21 Q. [Interpretation] Yes. Or, in other words, since it differs from
22 paragraph 4 in your statement because I believe you said there that the
23 office was opened in May 1991.
24 Now you said that it was actually after the events in May, so it
25 may have been another month. That's what I mean.
1 A. Yes, I can do that. I learned of the existence of that office
2 after May. I don't know the exact date, but I am convinced that I only
3 learned of it after May. It may have been in June.
4 Q. You see in paragraph 6 of your statement, you explained precisely
5 what you've just discussed, not in the document you were just given but
6 in paragraph 6 of your statement. That's P5977.
7 You explained here that they asked you to produce your military
8 service book and if you happened to have a war-time assignment written in
9 there, you would not have been accepted as a volunteer.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Can you tell me on what basis do you know that you would not be
12 eligible as a volunteer in that case. Did they tell you that?
13 A. I came to that office. I hadn't taken with me my military
14 service book, only my ID, and the man turned me back and said that I
15 should bring my military service book. And he told me that the
16 Yugoslav People's Army doesn't know when they would call up -- whether
17 they would call me up into the reserve. They had their system of
18 war-time assignments. They could call me up at any time if I had a
19 war-time assignment. However, I didn't have one. And then the man said
20 if the army did not assign you in advance as a reserve, then we can
21 accept you.
22 Q. One more thing from your experience and the experience from other
23 men you knew, was it a requirement to be accepted as a volunteer to have
24 done your military service?
25 A. In the TO of SBWS, I'll explain to you what the rules were.
1 They did their job very professionally. They wanted you to
2 produce your military service book and they complied with all the
3 military regulations of the JNA. Later on, things changed. Among the
4 Seselj's volunteers in Bosnia, there were people who had never served in
5 the army, et cetera. However, in this office where this man Filipovic
6 worked, he wanted to be sure that you didn't have a war-time assignment
7 because if you had one then the army could call you up at any time as a
8 reservist. I was accepted because I did not have a war-time assignment.
9 Q. When you say that later on they started inducting everyone
10 including people who did not -- who never served in the army, et cetera,
11 that was later in 1992, right, in Bosnia?
12 A. Yes, that did not happen in the district. In the district there
13 was no more war after Vukovar. These things happened later where there
14 was absolutely no control. In the district it was according to the
15 rules. I had to produce my military service book.
16 Q. Now would you please look at your statement, paragraph 7. This
17 same statement, paragraph 7, where it says that your status as a
18 volunteer lasted for one week. And after that, you got a military
19 call-up paper from the JNA. You said you were required to report to the
20 1st Guards Brigade. However, yesterday you corrected it and said it was
21 the Kraljevo Brigade not the Guards Brigade.
22 A. I did not correct that. You want me to answer?
23 Q. Yes. Just wait for the interpretation.
24 A. I'm talking about that first week or perhaps ten days. I
25 focussed on the one week, the first week when I was a member of the TO of
1 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and the main commander for us was
2 the Kraljevo Brigade. After that, we went to Lipovaca, where from we
3 would go later on to Vukovar. That's when Mr. Grahovac came. And he
4 said that this Kraljevo Brigade would no longer be there. Instead a
5 Guards Brigade from Belgrade will be coming. And those who want to go on
6 in the war would be under the Guards Brigade from Belgrade. He listed us
7 all, and he said that we would get official summons at our home address.
8 And after the war, I went home and, indeed, they delivered this summons
9 by courier service. And later on, we were under the Guards Brigade. And
10 officially we would have been reservists of the Guards Brigade.
11 Q. Let's clarify one thing. When you say that your status as
12 volunteer lasted approximately one week, which period would that be? Do
13 you count from the moment when you reported to the Territorial Defence in
14 Sid and the week after, or some other period?
15 A. Well, I counted from the day when we departed for Tovarnik and
16 until Djeletovci. Now, within the first three days when we got equipment
17 and weapons, it took us two or three days to form platoons, to clean our
18 weapons, so I was there in this base in -- in Tovarnik. I believe one
19 week passed between that and Tovarnik.
20 Q. You were there in that period when the action took place in
21 Tovarnik. And during those days, your unit was subordinated to the
22 Kraljevo Brigade?
23 A. I believe it was a motorised brigade. It probably had a number,
24 but I don't remember it.
25 Yes, we were there. We were subordinated to them. Their
1 officers were in command.
2 Q. That's, in fact, a JNA unit.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'm asking you this because on page 6 there is an omission,
5 because you said not Kraljevo Brigade. You said Kraljevska Brigada and
6 it was interpreted as "Royal Brigade."
7 Just tell me one more thing. Before you departed for Vukovar,
8 you received an official military call-up from the JNA to report to that
9 Guards Brigade; correct?
10 A. I don't remember the date. I was already in Vukovar. But when I
11 returned from Vukovar, from the war, when I returned home, my brother
12 showed me that paper. However, at Lipovaca I had already signed some
13 paper and Grahovac required us to sign it. He said you are not cannon
14 fodder. You have certain legal rights as volunteers. You know that
15 volunteers and reservists have the same status. The only difference is
16 that reservists were called up, and volunteers volunteered. But legally
17 we had the same rights. The same status.
18 Q. And that's in fact what you said in this addendum to your
19 statement. We can go back to 1D322. That's what you were just given in
20 the B/C/S version. It says:
21 "The call-up papers from the JNA were delivered by courier
23 Can you read this paragraph?
24 A. Which paragraph?
25 Q. 7.
1 A. I see it says here by post.
2 Q. Yes. And in the other paper it says by courier service.
3 A. It's usually the courier service and Sid has one. They deal with
4 these things because the post does not always work perfectly.
5 Q. And you say here that, on this basis, you were on an equal
6 footing with all the other reservists of the JNA.
7 A. Yes. And I received my salary for the service in Vukovar from
8 the JNA.
9 Q. I believe you named the person from whom you received your
10 salary. You said you were given it at the barracks of the 1st Guards
11 Brigade, but I think in para 23, in the last paragraph, you gave the name
12 of the officer from whom you received your salary. It's the last
13 paragraph because paragraph 23 has two paragraphs?
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Biersay.
15 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 I rise because I'm getting a bit lost in which document we're
17 talking about. When you say in -- you said in paragraph --
18 Mr. Zivanovic, paragraph 23, in which -- which document are we?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 1D322.
20 MS. BIERSAY: So it's now the memorandum.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
22 MS. BIERSAY: I would be assisted if perhaps when you're
23 referring to it to say memorandum just to --
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers].
25 MS. BIERSAY: -- just to keep it -- it would just assist the
1 record and me trying to find which section you're discussing. Thank you.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Is that correct? Do you remember that name?
4 A. Yes, Captain Zirojevic. I asked for him. He came out and he
5 sent me to a warrant officer whose name I don't know. The warrant
6 officer gave me a certificate and he paid out my salary on the basis of
7 that certificate.
8 Q. In your statement, you stated that when you volunteered you were
9 issued the old-type JNA uniform. Was that uniform significantly
10 different from the uniforms of reservists?
11 A. How shall I explain this? The old uniform is the sturdy, very
12 warm uniform. The reservists' uniforms were the same but made of a
13 different fabric. But they were basically the same. The camouflage
14 uniforms were not common at that time, although I later received at
15 Velepromet a camouflage uniform consisting of the top and the bottoms,
16 and the hat.
17 Q. I'm asking about the time when you volunteered. Was it -- was
18 the difference between those two uniforms very -- very obvious so that
19 you could easily tell reservists from soldiers?
20 A. No. We were, if I can say, tongue and cheek, we were all like
21 Easter eggs. Reservists usually had their uniforms ready and they kept
22 them at home.
23 Q. You mentioned in your statement, and you mentioned today in your
24 testimony, two names. The first one was Slobodan Grahovac. You were
25 shown a document -- maybe I'll show it again to you later.
1 I'd like to know, because I believe you said he had some
2 connection to the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Do
3 you know this first-hand or did you hear it from someone?
4 A. The signature on that document is Filipovic's, not Grahovac. I
5 remember when I came to the office of that man, Filipovic, I believe his
6 name was Dusan, I used to see him on TV even back in Sid, he was
7 something in that government. I don't know what exactly. But maybe I'm
8 mistaken. I believe that he was some sort of minister or something. Or
9 he -- he became a minister later, unless I'm very confused.
10 Q. That's precisely why I'm asking. It's in paragraph 19 of your
11 statement. Although you amended it later in the memorandum. I'm asking
12 you this because our information is that Slobodan Grahovac played
13 absolutely no part in the government of SBWS at the time when it was a
14 district or at the time when it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
15 That's the reason why I'm asking, because in paragraph 19 of the
16 memorandum, the document you're looking at, you said that he was
17 presented to you as the minister of defence of SAO Krajina.
18 My question is: Who presented him or who introduced him to you
19 as the minister of defence, if you remember.
20 A. I remember his face very clearly. He was wearing the same
21 uniform, those same fatigues, and that's the first time in my life that I
22 saw a Heckler gun. There were two instructors there, one from
23 Backa Palanka and the other one was nicknamed Djani, I don't
24 know from where, and they introduced him to us. I know that after the
25 war, this Grahovac worked in the customs service or maybe in the state
1 security, and there was a report that he was hurt or killed in a traffic
2 accident. But from that time, I remember that he was presented to us as
3 a minister. Even the defence minister. But that is not necessarily
5 Q. Let us now look at P1727. That is the document which bears
6 Filipovic's signature. I see that he signed this on behalf of the chief.
7 I don't know whether he was the chief or somebody else was the chief
8 because we have different information about him too.
9 If we could just see the top of the B/C/S version. I'm
10 interested in this date, 18 October 1991. There is a stamp on the
11 left-hand side. What does this mean? What is written in the centre,
12 OP and then STO. We know that STO is the Territorial Defence Staff. But
13 what is OP?
14 A. Operative maybe ... I don't know, really.
15 Q. If you don't know, that's all right. I'm asking you because we
16 know about the so-called TO Staff of Vukovar from all the documents we
17 have seen, and we know of another staff, or other headquarters in
18 Vukovar. You mentioned Vujovic and Vujanovic and we have information
19 about the fact that the previous commander was Dusan Jaksic. So I wanted
20 to see if we could clarify this matter, whether these were two distinct
21 staffs or maybe the same staff in two places at various times or maybe
22 one subordinated to the other?
23 A. Well, there had to be a staff. In Vukovar it's a town staff, and
24 certainly there must have been one for the whole district, but I really
25 don't know how they were connected and whether they co-operated at all.
1 Q. I would like to see the bottom of the document because there's a
2 name there. Can you read this name?
3 A. Marko Ceprnja. I heard of that man.
4 Q. Do you know that before the war he also worked at the Vukovar TO?
5 A. No, I don't know that. But that name did pop up. I mean, there,
6 on the front line. I believe that he even supplied some stuff to us,
7 such as cigarettes.
8 Q. When did you first meet Milan Lancuzanin?
9 A. When we were lined up on that occasion. When I came from
10 Lipovaca. I first met him and that man Ubi [as interpreted] Paripovic.
11 Although, I know that he was in Tovarnik too, but I don't remember him
12 from there.
13 Q. And that was in Vukovar. So I met him in Vukovar?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. I see that later he called you often because he fell ill and
16 asked you for assistance. So it is my impression that you grew quite
17 close, that you were good mates.
18 A. Yes -- actually, I built his house.
19 Q. Was that after the war?
20 A. Yes. Yes, after the war in this district of ours. Later on,
21 there was also the war in Kosovo. But it was around 2000 or so.
22 Q. But do you know that up until the war, he lived in Vukovar?
23 A. Yes, of course. I also know his father and his brother. I was
24 in his house in Vukovar. It's in Leva Supoderica. I also went to his
25 father's place who lived by Novi Sad. I forget exactly where. And I
1 was -- I was at his brother's house and know his wife and her family.
2 Q. You probably know that when the war broke out, he and his family
3 fled Vukovar and went to Serbia.
4 A. Yes. He was returning to Vukovar the same way as I went there,
5 through Tovarnik.
6 Q. You mean he was returning as a volunteer; right?
7 A. Yes, a volunteer or TO. Anyway, a member of the armed forces.
8 What exactly he was, I don't know.
9 Q. You said that you know that he was also at Tovarnik involved in
10 the activities around Tovarnik, although you didn't meet him then.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know when he returned to Vukovar, when arrived there?
13 A. I found him in Vukovar when I arrived there, so I wouldn't know.
14 He may have told me, but I didn't -- I don't remember. Anyway, he came
15 there before me.
16 Q. I'm asking you this because according to the information that I
17 have, on this very day indicated here, the 18th of October, he arrived
19 A. That's possible. Or, rather, I'm not really convinced ...
20 maybe -- maybe earlier.
21 Q. At any rate, you don't know the exact date.
22 A. No.
23 Q. You said that you had been appointed commander of the
24 1st Platoon in this Leva Supoderica Unit. And you said that on the 20th
25 of November, you were the duty officer at headquarters. I would like to
1 know whether these duty shifts were a common thing in the Leva Supoderica
3 A. Yes, there would always be duty shifts. When the commander was
4 there, he had certain people who dealt with some matters. I was a
5 platoon commander and I was more in charge of hands-on stuff. There were
6 also the communications there, and the staffs, so if Radic or Zirojevic
7 came, somebody had to be there to call in the commander if he is out on
8 the front line. You understand? It's normal procedure anywhere.
9 Q. And according to the rules that was an officer, so -- or not a
10 private, such as probably a company commander?
11 A. Yes. And, as a rule, they were locals, from Vukovar. The --
12 they were familiar with the terrain. I was duty officer only once
13 because nobody else was there.
14 Q. Does that mean that before that you were never duty officer?
15 A. Yes. I did stay at the staff sometimes overnight, when we knew
16 that there was no activity planned, but it was not a usual thing to have
17 me there. I remember this instance because it took so long.
18 Q. I'm interested in something else. We'll get back to this
19 specific instance. I would like to know what you, as duty officer, but
20 I'm not referring specifically to the day when the Ovcara events
21 happened, but more generally, in principle, what were your duties? What
22 were you supposed to do?
23 A. Not allow everybody to enter. When somebody comes with some
24 request, asking for cigarettes or ammunition or something, then you go to
25 the warehouse. You issue ammunition or Zoljas. And if there's an
1 incident, such as a row, you take care of it. If somebody drinks
2 alcohol, these were the things you would deal with. And the usual staff
3 affairs, so you don't decide about anything. You don't take any
4 decisions. And when there are people you don't know, you have to ask who
5 they are and where they were going. It's something like a sentry.
6 Q. You also had means of communication, such as a Motorola and an
7 induction telephone.
8 A. Yes. And a power generator and a battery-powered TV set because
9 the houses we were staying at didn't have electricity.
10 Q. This induction telephone, is that a land-line telephone?
11 A. Yes. You have to lay a phone line from point A to point B, and
12 then -- that's how it works. But it's the worst communications line
13 because these wires can break.
14 Q. But it's the safest.
15 A. No. Actually, according to military doctrine, courier
16 communication is safest. But these were -- this was the hardware that
17 the JNA had at the time.
18 Q. Let me ask you about this: When you were duty officer, did you
19 have communication with other units, such as JNA units or other units in
20 that sector?
21 A. There were two documents. One was a list of codes. So when you
22 set up a communication, then you use these code-names and people would
23 understand. So it wasn't a very long list of codes, but there were --
24 there was a number of codes anyway. It was line communication.
25 Q. Let me ask you one more thing: The duty officer, did he make
1 notes of the events during his duty shift?
2 A. No. You would brief the commander orally if there was an
3 incident. If there was none, nothing.
4 You must understand that we didn't become officers by attending
5 Military Academy. We didn't have much paperwork. We were more or less
6 self-proclaimed. The army did accept my rank eventually, but when I
7 served in the army, I didn't attend the reserve officers' school.
8 Q. And the duty shifts, how long were they roughly?
9 A. Your shift was either a day-time shift or a night-time shift.
10 But, on that day Kameni had gone are all the mainly officers and just
11 said I should stay on duty. Although there were the squad commanders
12 there, so I don't know why they didn't do the job.
13 Q. So, roughly speaking, a duty shift would last up to 12 hours;
15 A. A regular duty shift, yes.
16 Q. I'm asking because many things can happen in 12 hours, so it is
17 probably more convenient to write things down because it's easy to forget
18 things so you wouldn't be able to brief the commander.
19 A. When somebody called, you make a note of it. And the line wasn't
20 used for private conversations anyway. So if anybody called and the
21 commander was out, and I must tell you that Kameni was not
22 self-proclaimed guy. He was a brave man. And we didn't use Motorolas
23 often in some periods because anybody can listen in. In that case, you
24 go to the other person in person. But I didn't use these means of
25 communication so often because I was a combat man.
1 Q. During these duty shifts was there communication with other
2 units, such as these assault groups of the JNA?
3 A. Well, you know, I don't know everything about being a duty
4 officer. It happened by chance that I was duty officer on that
5 unfortunate day, and I didn't know about Ovcara. I only learned about it
7 There was this man by the name of Slobodan Katic. Whenever he
8 was present he was at the communications centre, so he was best informed
9 about who was doing what and where.
10 Q. Just one more question. What was Katic's job in your unit?
11 A. He was a kind of officer but he didn't have any subordinates. He
12 didn't have a platoon. He considered himself assistant commander. He
13 was a radical from Belgrade. He was very active in the Radical Party,
14 and, in that sense, he was in contact with them. When I joined the unit,
15 I had no idea it had anything to do with a political party. Only later
16 did they start distributing applications to join the party, and Katic was
17 something like a political figure, and he was Kameni's friend, whether
18 he -- they went back a long time or not, I don't know. But when they
19 were there, they socialised a lot.
20 Q. Let me now go into your clarifications about Tovarnik. You said
21 that you saw many corpses at Tovarnik on the street or in the gardens and
22 you supposed that they were Croats because they were not buried. Maybe
23 due to the fighting, even if those dead bodies were Serbian bodies, they
24 couldn't be buried because of the fighting?
25 A. I knew the one woman was Serbian. There may have been some
1 Serbian dead bodies among the ones I saw, but the ones on the tarmac
2 certainly were not Serbian bodies. The military police guarded them.
3 And I saw two murders with my own eyes, and I know that they weren't
4 Serbs. One man's name was Mate, I think. He was killed by
5 Zeljko Krnjajic. And his wife was killed by Predrag. One of them is now
6 being tried for Lovas and the other is at large. They killed this
7 married couple personally.
8 Q. That's in your statement.
9 A. That's how it happened.
10 Q. You also say that the military police was guarding a couple of
11 Croatian bodies near the petrol station. Why do you believe that those
12 were Croat bodies?
13 A. That was the second day. All the Serbs who had fled had returned
14 by that time. And if those bodies were from a Serb family, the families
15 would have picked them up. We also didn't find anyone in Ilaca.
16 Everybody had fled. We didn't find anybody. We did not have to fight
17 apart in the artillery preparation before we went in. That's why I
18 believe that they were Croats. Or perhaps other non-Serbs. Because if
19 it was somebody whose family was around, they would have been collected.
20 Q. I'm asking you because the other bodies were not guarded by the
21 military police. Did it perhaps occur to you that the military police
22 was guarding Serb bodies until they are collected?
23 A. I understand what you're driving at. It would have been a
24 possibility but for the fact that on the first day when I was at the same
25 place, there were no bodies, and the next day there was not a single
1 Croat soldier in that area who would have killed those Serbs. They may
2 have been victims of a general crime. It was complete chaos, anarchy.
3 Q. Was it perhaps your impression that the military police was
4 guarding bodies in order to secure a -- an on-site investigation?
5 A. That would have been possible. That would have been the most
6 realistic option.
7 Q. Just one more question before the break: Do you know what
8 Zeljko Krnjajic did before the war?
9 A. Before the war? I don't know. After the war, he was a police
10 officer in Sid. He even served in Kosovo as a policeman. But before the
11 war, I don't know. I had contacts with him and talked with him because
12 he also bought a house in the Sid municipality, in Asica village, and I
13 went there because we knew each other from the time when he was my
14 commander. But he never mentioned what he did before the war. I believe
15 he comes originally from Lovas.
16 Q. Did you hear that he was a policeman even before the war?
17 A. No. You see, after that brief war in Tovarnik, he became the
18 commander of the police because the police force was formed and the
19 civilian administration immediately after. And if he had, indeed, been a
20 policeman before the war and graduated from the police academy, now I
21 understand why he was named police commander.
22 But one thing is sure: He was in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May,
23 in his own words.
24 Q. My information is exactly the opposite. He may have said that
25 but ...
1 A. Maybe. That's what he told us. Because he had a camouflage
2 uniform on when we were in Sid and were receiving weapons he and Vojkapic
3 were the only ones who had experience and the only experience could have
4 been Borovo Selo, and said that he was in Borovo Selo himself unless he
5 was in the Foreign Legion.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it is time for a break.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: It is, indeed, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 We will take the break until 12.45, Mr. Stoparic. The court
9 usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
12 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. [Interpretation] When you were talking about the Territorial
18 Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, do you know who, in fact,
19 was the commander of that Territorial Defence at the time when you were
20 in Vukovar?
21 A. I don't know. But I heard later that it was General Badza.
22 Q. When you say "General Badza," do you mean Radovan Stojicic,
23 nicknamed Badza?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know roughly where he was working, what was he -- his
1 other job at the time, from which structures he came?
2 A. He was part of the special units of the state security of the
3 Republic of Serbia, the so-called SAJ. I don't know his entire career,
4 but, for a while, he was there too. I don't know the rest. I first
5 heard of the man when there was a strike in some mine and he went to deal
6 with it with his special unit.
7 Q. When you were speaking about Slobodan Grahovac, you said that, to
8 the best of your knowledge, he was also a member of the police. Did you
9 mean the police of the Republic of Serbia?
10 A. After the war in Vukovar, yes, that's what I heard. Or perhaps I
11 heard it on radio or television. I'm not sure whether it was the police
12 or the state security. I'm a bit confused. Maybe he was in the customs
13 service, also. I don't know all the places where he worked afterwards.
14 Q. Let's just be clear: Are you talking about Serbia or the
15 Republic of the Serbian Krajina where he worked in the police or the
16 state security or the customs service?
17 A. Serbia was still part of the federal state, along with
18 Montenegro. That's what I mean.
19 Q. So you don't mean Krajina?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I'm asking you because we have information --
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [In English] I refer to the page 613, lines 16 to
23 19, there Grahovac -- [Interpretation] that Grahovac was the Chief of
24 Staff in the Territorial Defence.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. What remained in my
1 head was that he was some minister. But sometimes you get confused about
2 these things. You take a lie for the truth, sometimes you are given
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Maybe he was falsely presented to you. I'm just saying we don't
6 have information that he was a minister in the government.
7 A. He did not introduce himself as such. Other people said he was a
9 Q. Mr. Stoparic, you said that before coming into the courtroom, you
10 had read this statement you have before you. That's 5977, with the
11 corrigendum 5976. And you said that to the best of your knowledge it's
12 all true and accurate when you were asked so by the Prosecutor. I'd like
13 to draw your attention to paragraph 36 in that statement. You will see
14 soon the B/C/S version on the screen too.
15 What we see here is the same thing you said in your testimony,
16 that you personally had not been at Ovcara but you know certain details
17 about the killings committed there and that, on that day, Kameni, Ceca,
18 Kinez, and Djo went to the war staff of the Serbian Radical Party in
19 Belgrade. However, you say here in your statement:
20 "They returned around noon."
21 And today, you said they returned that evening when it was
22 already dark. Since you said yesterday you had read your statement and
23 you stood by it and your testimony today was different on this point, I'd
24 like to know if you can explain this.
25 A. These words "around noon" don't have to be correct. It could
1 have been 1.00 p.m. I'm not sure whether it was 12.00 or 1.00 p.m. But
2 I spoke to Kameni on the Motorola.
3 Q. In other words, around 12.00 or 1.00 p.m., you spoke to him.
4 Does it mean you talked to him in person or not?
5 A. No, I just spoke to him. He asked me, in fact, he said, I know
6 you've been there a long time, but stay on some longer. And they
7 returned into the evening.
8 Q. You see, in your statement, in the sentence after that, it says:
9 "I was the duty officer. When Kameni and the others came back
10 from Belgrade I noticed that they were very anxious ..."
11 So I want to know if you did not see them around noon when they
12 returned, how were you able to notice that they were anxious?
13 A. You see, I spoke to him around noon, and when he returned that
14 evening, in my mind, he had returned from Belgrade.
15 Q. Are you trying to say that they were anxious at that time? Did
16 they all come back together, the four of them, or just Kameni?
17 A. All of them. Well, I was able to see that they were nervous,
18 worried. He asked very briskly that we establish our manning strength,
19 and we had been in combat together. I was able to see that he was
21 Q. You see, you say in the next sentence:
22 "Kameni said they were going to find Miroljub."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So when did he go to find Miroljub? That evening or that day at
1 A. I'm trying to quote Kameni, to quote what he said when I received
2 my task to establish the manning strength. He also said, You don't have
3 to go find Miroljub yourself. I'll go.
4 From the moment when we spoke on the Motorola until they
5 returned, I don't know what, in the meantime, was going on with Miroljub.
6 Later on, it turned out that Miroljub was with them. I don't know why he
7 had to go find Miroljub. He was furious with that Miroljub.
8 Q. Well, try to explain to me why did he say, Don't go look for
9 Miroljub. Why would you look for Miroljub in the first place? At least
10 that's what it says in the record.
11 A. He didn't say that to me. He said they would go to find
13 Q. Did he say why?
14 A. He probably did, but I had already left to establish the manning
15 strength. They stayed behind. And when I came back, there were many
16 more people there. I asked him, What's going on? What's all the
17 commotion about? And he said, Something is going on that shouldn't be
18 happening. He didn't say, Something happened. He said, Something is
19 going on that shouldn't be happening. And the next day, it was clear.
20 Q. I believe it's very important what you say here. In the next
21 sentence already it says when they left for Ovcara to look for Miroljub,
22 they remained there for two or two and a half hours, and when they
23 returned to the command, they ordered you to go to the unit urgently and
24 find out where everyone is. From your statement, it follows that they
25 went to Ovcara and stayed there for two or two and a half hours,
1 returned, and it was then that Kameni gave you the order to find out
2 where the troops from your unit were?
3 A. Kameni told me himself that they had been at Ovcara for a while.
4 And that's certainly true. There's no need for him to lie. After
5 Ovcara, they came to headquarters. That's true as well. Whether or not
6 they went to see Miroljub again, I don't know. They said they would.
7 I may have mixed things up when I made my statement. I --
8 sometimes we -- I spoke from memory, and sometimes I said what we agreed
9 I would say at Zemun in case we were questioned about Ovcara.
10 Q. In a word, what we read in paragraph 36 is partly untrue.
11 A. Well, I explained. When I spoke I amalgamated both versions into
12 one. That's why there's a problem, not only with you but also with the
13 Prosecutor. Things had to be clarified for the Prosecution too.
14 Q. You're aware that you're giving evidence under oath. Did Kameni
15 go to find Miroljub, as you say in your statement, around noon when he
16 arrived and stayed for two or two and a half hours and gave you that
17 order, or did he set out to find Miroljub in the evening hours, and
18 Vujovic too?
19 A. When I saw him in the evening, he said that he would go to find
20 Miroljub. And before that, he was there as well. I don't know whether
21 he actually went there at night. And, frankly speaking, I asked him that
22 after the war, and he answered, yes, that is -- yes, I saw things but I
23 didn't kill anyone, and I left.
24 Q. I find that understandable if you went there around noon or
25 within those two and a half hours he stayed, nothing was happening of
1 that kind. But when he went there in the evening, then the situation was
2 quite different. That's why I'm asking you whether he went there around
3 noon, the way it says in your statement, or if he went there in the
4 evening -- actually, he arrived in the evening and after that went there?
5 A. The real truth is that we spoke around noon or 1.00 and that he
6 came in in the evening and -- well, the evening. I don't know. It may
7 have been around 6.00 or maybe even 5.00 because it was winter time. And
8 he ordered me to establish the manning strength and that he would go to
9 find Miroljub. Whether he actually did, I don't know. He says he
11 When he went there, I don't know. Perhaps it was a scheme to
12 confuse me. It was suspicious to me when he ordered me to establish the
13 manning strength because that was the first time ever since we arrived
14 to -- at Vukovar.
15 Q. In other words, this part of your statement where you say that
16 Kameni arrived at noon with these four -- or with these three members of
17 your unit is not true?
18 A. I said that he arrived in Vukovar around noon because we spoke by
19 means of our communication lines, and I saw him in person in the evening.
20 That's to the best of my recollection. They also confused me with
21 their -- with those meetings we had. What should we say, and, you know,
22 that stuff, unfortunately. So I got confused.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 5979.
24 Q. Do you recognise this text?
25 A. This is my handwriting. Yes, I recognise it.
1 Q. Tell us when this was drafted? There's no date here.
2 A. Well, I think in 2004. Or 2005 maybe. I'm not sure.
3 Q. Here in this statement, you speak about the meeting you had with
4 Kameni and three other former members of that unit. Tell me how long
5 after that meeting did you draft this statement? Can you remember that?
6 A. Over a year, I think. Well, no, not really. Maybe even two
8 Q. Did anybody ask you to write this statement?
9 A. An investigator, I think. I can give you the name, if necessary.
10 Paolo Pastore.
11 Q. Let us now take a closer look at this statement. Let's start
12 with paragraph 1.
13 It says that before the investigation in Serbia, you met
14 Lancuzanin and that he invited you to meet Ceca and Kinez as well. Tell
15 me, how come people knew that there would be an investigation in Serbia
16 on the -- about this event? Because 12 years or who knows how much had
18 A. I don't know but Kameni knew. He must have learned that from
19 someone from security service. When we went to those interviews, I
20 couldn't suggest them what to do because I wasn't there with them. But
21 later on, people were brought in some six months or so later because I
22 know that Kinez came to Sid after he had been interviewed in Belgrade on
23 which occasion he had to take a lie detector test.
24 Q. How many times did you meet to discuss these things?
25 A. Well, we went to Mitrovica to Ceca's place and then went to Ruma
1 to Kinez's place, and then we also spoke in the railway station bar. And
2 after some time we went to Belgrade, all of us together, and met Djo.
3 There was also an attorney and some other people I don't know. And there
4 was a man who was at the TO at the time. His nickname was Djani.
5 Actually, it was either he or a relative of his, because that Djani
6 lived abroad for a while.
7 And then Kinez came to see us once, because I told you that I was
8 one of the -- the people who built Kameni's house and we were just
9 finishing a part of the work, I remember. He had already been brought in
10 by the police and had to take the lie detector test, and then he would
11 tell us how he faired. Later Kameni also was summoned. In Sid, there
12 were inspectors that came for him. At the time, Kameni also was
13 interviewed by ICTY investigators.
14 Q. Kameni was interviewed by ICTY investigators. Is that what he
15 told you or did he hear that from the -- from Tribunal investigators?
16 A. No, no. No. I actually escorted him when he was going there,
17 and he took an attorney with him because he was a suspect. And when he
18 returned from Belgrade, I think that he even told me that the interview
19 had been videotaped. Nobody told me here. He told me.
20 Q. So you met once when Kameni said that there would be an
21 investigation. Then you met once in Belgrade when that Djani was
22 present, and that you met once when Kinez took the lie detector test, and
23 once later, when Kameni went to be interviewed by ICTY investigators.
24 That was four times?
25 A. No, no. I met Kameni daily. Almost daily.
1 Q. I'm referring to these four situations, not your daily meetings
2 with Kameni.
3 Did you speak about the events at Ovcara on each of these four
4 occasions? Did you consult as to what you should say once the
5 investigation begins?
6 A. When Kameni went to be interviewed by the investigators, we
7 didn't discuss that. But, otherwise, yes, we spoke about Ovcara. We
8 spoke about Sljivancanin. We even called him from the cafe. There was a
9 special system in place. You -- you had -- we called him and wait for
10 three rings and only then would he answer the phone. He hadn't been
11 arrested yet. We all liked the man; Sljivancanin I mean. The
12 Prosecutors once told me that they wanted me to testify in his trial but
13 I refused. However, they didn't insist. There was no way of making me.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: They would have been
15 able to make me testify.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. When you spoke about Ovcara, why was it necessary to communicate
18 with Sljivancanin?
19 A. I didn't speak to him. They spoke to him on the phone. But when
20 they did, they only said hello. They didn't speak about serious matters
21 because everybody was scared to death of being wire-tapped.
22 Q. Do you know why they wanted to set up contact with him rather
23 than other officers?
24 A. They, especially Ceca and Kameni, liked him and socialised with
25 him as long as it was possible, before he was indicted, that is. They
1 had a good relationship with him. I don't think that they socialised
2 because of Ovcara. They just socialised.
3 Q. And when -- why did they stop?
4 A. Well, because of prison. Mr. Sljivancanin was here and they were
5 also arrested. Some were convicted, some were quitted. Kameni was first
6 convicted to 20 years and that was raised to five. Kinez got 20 years.
7 I don't remember what happened to Ceca. The older man from my platoon, I
8 showed him in that picture, he also got 20 year, Soskic. It was all for
9 Ovcara. Maybe they socialise now. Now both Kameni and Sljivancanin are
10 free men.
11 Q. Do you know why you had this coded system wherein you would ring
12 three times and only then would he answer? Why was that necessary?
13 A. Ceca knew that. Kameni did not have that number. Because they
14 were looking for Mr. Sljivancanin. It's not only our services that were
15 after him. There were also foreign services after him. We were
16 especially afraid of manhunts and bounty hunters. Everything exists in
17 the Balkans, and ultimately he was arrested. He was in hiding basically.
18 Q. So it was all before he was arrested.
19 A. Yes. Not long before, because things were already under way
20 then. There were arrests and wartime -- war crimes prosecutions.
21 Q. You say that the OTP asked you to be a witness in the
22 Sljivancanin case and you refused.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us why?
25 A. At that time, I was preparing for some other case, perhaps
1 Seselj, I'm not sure, when I was contacted by the Prosecutor working on
2 Sljivancanin case. I refused, and I already explained. I told you that
3 they had ways to make me testify. The Trial Chamber could issue a
4 summons, but they didn't do that. They didn't ask the Trial Chamber to
5 issue a binding order. And, anyway, I did not refuse impolitely. I just
6 said that if I had a choice, I would not like to take part in that trial.
7 Q. I know that you testified before this Tribunal in a number of
9 A. And you must note that it was always in public. I insisted on
11 Q. That's true. Why were you reluctant to testify in the
12 Sljivancanin case, in particular, unlike all the other cases where you
13 did testify?
14 A. It's a bit personal, but I have more respect for that man than
15 for all the others. I believe that he, too, is a casualty of what
16 happened. That's my opinion. Although he was found guilty by this
17 Court, but it's my right to still have my opinion. He is more humane, a
18 better human being, although I don't know him that closely. We are not
19 friends. It's just my personal opinion about him as a person.
20 I told you, if they really wanted to have me testify, you know
21 they had ways. A Judge issues a binding order and then I would have had
22 to appear or they would have put me in prison for several months for
23 contempt of court. Although, in his case, I would have chosen that over
24 testifying against him.
25 Q. In other words, you would have rather been convicted for contempt
1 of court than testifying against Sljivancanin?
2 A. Yes. And I would still have testified against all the others.
3 And I would always testify in public session. Except -- except in the
4 case of rape victims, everybody should testify in public, even insiders
5 because in the end we'll all be judged.
6 Q. Did you understand the proposal to testify in Sljivancanin as the
7 Prosecution attempt to convict him and have you help them convict him?
8 A. That's -- that was not my thinking. I just did not want to be a
9 part of it. I did not want to be a part of anything that had to do with
10 him. I did not want my name linked or mentioned anywhere in the
11 Judgement. Although, as I say, they have ways. They had ways to make me
12 testify. But I simply see that man differently. Although I did not get
13 to know him very well, but I did see him on the front line. Or perhaps I
14 was influenced by being friends with Kameni, or his being friends with
15 Kameni. In any case, that's how it is.
16 Q. But didn't it occur to you that by testifying in that case,
17 considering that you have a high opinion of Veselin Sljivancanin, you
18 would have helped his Defence, and you would have perhaps assisted the
19 Court in getting a better understanding of him as a person and the events
20 that occurred there.
21 A. Yes. But they did not contact me. From what I understand, both
22 parties are able to contact witnesses; right?
23 Q. You mean to say the Defence team did not contact you?
24 A. I believe not.
25 Q. But you, as a witness, you could have said a lot of good things
1 about him even as a Prosecution witness because the Prosecution was not
2 forcing you to say anything against Sljivancanin.
3 A. No. They do not impose anything to you. They listen to what you
4 have to say. There is no coaching, no instruction, just as with the
5 Defence teams. But I just did not want to appear in that trial as
6 Prosecution witness. I probably would have been reluctant to appear as a
7 Defence witness too. I just didn't want my name in that Judgement. And
8 this changing of hats is also not me. It's -- the best thing, I believe,
9 is to be neutral. And I did not consider myself as an expert or an
10 important witness who would have -- who would have been able to help him
11 or prove his guilt.
12 I may have said something -- some things in my evidence in a
13 confused way because that's how I lived them.
14 Q. Did you testify in the Vukovar trial in Belgrade?
15 A. No. You mean when Kameni was the accused? No.
16 Q. Were you called as a witness there?
17 A. You know, by that time I had left Serbia. It's no secret that I
18 was in the witness and victims unit in the relocation programme. Maybe I
19 was difficult to reach. Maybe they were not able to find me. I
20 testified in Belgrade twice but that had nothing to do with the SBWS. It
21 had to do with Kosovo and with the Trnovo incident in Sarajevo. I
22 testified without any protection measures. We did not have a system of
23 protection measures anyway, at that time. Once I testified from here by
24 videolink but it all concerned the Skorpions.
25 Q. Did you perhaps testify in the Lovas case?
1 A. No. I was in Lovas before the war. People who live in Sid in
2 that part of the Krajina know that there was a shop there where the boss
3 was a man called Dule, and on very good terms we bought household
4 appliances there on loan, and during the war I went only once. We came
5 by car to the entrance to Lovas and went to back. I did not go to Lovas
6 during the war.
7 Q. You see on page 1 of your statement towards the bottom. It's the
8 second page in English. You say that Milan Lancuzanin on that occasion
9 when you met up at the railway station in Ruma, the conversation started
10 when he said that Ovcara will be prosecuted in Serbia and that
11 General Vasiljevic was set up at a trial in The Hague to blame that crime
12 on the Territorial Defence of Vukovar and a certain number of volunteers
13 from Leva Supoderica only to prove Sljivancanin's non-involvement in that
15 A. Those were not my words. I was just trying to convey what he
17 Q. Could you make this a bit clearer. How did you understand what
18 Kameni said on that occasion, that General Vasiljevic was put up to it
19 at -- at the trial in The Hague?
20 A. Of course I know who General Vasiljevic is. He was the chief of
21 the counter-intelligence service, and many of those involved in the war
22 react to every mention of him with distaste and even revulsion. Don't
23 ask me why. I watched his testimony in the Milosevic trial. I really
24 wanted to see it, so I watched on the Internet. You know, there are
25 conspiracy theories everywhere. I don't have a particular opinion. It
1 could have been the way he described it. Perhaps not. I'm just saying
2 what Kameni told us. All of us there are absolutely convinced that
3 Sljivancanin is not guilty for what happened there. And despite his
4 conviction, I have the right to think so.
5 Q. I'm not questioning your opinion. It's just that from your own
6 words here, it follows that Vasiljevic was put up at the trial in
7 The Hague to blame this crime on the TO Vukovar and the volunteers for
8 the single purpose of proving Sljivancanin's non-involvement in Ovcara.
9 When you say somebody was put up to do something, that implies
10 that the person did not testify truthfully but gave false evidence in
11 order to blame some things on one group of people rather than others.
12 A. My opinion is - my opinion was - that Serbia and Yugoslavia were
13 prepared to do anything to prove that they were not involved, or their
14 members were not involved. And to prove, instead, that the Territorial
15 Defence and others were guilty, in fact. I believe that is so. And
16 Vasiljevic is the spy master. A spy remains a spy. But that's how I
17 remember Kameni's words at that meeting. To me, it also sounded like a
18 conspiracy theory.
19 Q. Further below, you say that he even said - we're still talking
20 about Kameni - that the trial in Serbia will follow that theory. This is
21 some kind of forecast how the trial in the Ovcara case in Serbia will
22 proceed. Did you follow that trial?
23 A. Yes, in the media. Yes, I followed the reporting because many
24 people I knew were involved. And what is said about the line the trial
25 would take, it's -- it means that marginal people would be convicted,
1 perpetrators, as if nobody in the top echelons knew anything. And that's
2 why Kameni was afraid, because he considered himself a low-level
4 Q. And then he says:
5 "Namely, if it is proven, which I personally don't doubt would
6 happen, that the crime was committed by members of the TO and the
7 volunteers without the knowledge of the JNA, that will deflect all blame
8 from Sljivancanin. He said that it was the purpose of the Serbian state
9 to have anonymous people convicted of that crime rather than officials
10 and officers because if the so-called Vukovar three, Mrksic, Radic, and
11 Sljivancanin, are convicted or characterised as involved in any way, then
12 the state of Serbia would have to recognise its involvement in its -- in
13 that conflict and that would mean paying a huge damages to the Republic
14 of Croatia. As he explained, our grandchildren will be born indebted to
15 the state of Croatia."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When he was saying that, did you have the impression that he
18 received that information from somebody else?
19 A. I don't know. He seemed to have some knowledge. Otherwise, how
20 would he have been able to talk like this?
21 Perhaps I did not use his exact words when I described it because
22 I didn't have a Dictaphone with me, but I tried to the best of my ability
23 to convey what he said. The gist is there. And to me it all seemed very
24 personal, very heart-felt, all this talk about war damages. And, now, in
25 fact, we have a tribunal like that in this international tribunal.
1 Q. Could you please explain the following sentence to me, the one in
3 "During my conversations with the inspectors in charge of the
4 Ovcara case, I got the impression that they know in detail what and how
5 this crime happened. I realised this from the questions they were asking
6 me. Then they correctly described people I knew and their role in it
7 all, and they had other crimes in Bosnia for some of these individuals.
8 Since they could not establish this after so many years, they therefore
9 must have collected the information immediately following the crime and
10 put it all aside."
11 Is this your comment?
12 A. After trial in Belgrade, and I still had not seen a single ICTY
13 investigator, a judge accorded me one month of protection, but it so
14 happened that they didn't have a police unit capable of doing that, so
15 some police officers investigating war crimes were assigned to me. They
16 took me to a hotel, and that's where they spoke to me like this. This is
17 my account of what they were saying.
18 They know all names, they know all details, some of which I
19 didn't know. And this is my conclusion from that conversation with these
20 police officers whose task it was to protect me, and eventually they
21 brought me to The Hague on a plane.
22 They were also interested in Ovcara and Djordje Soskic. They
23 even knew when I went to see Soskic in Krusevac after the war. They knew
24 even that. That's why I wrote these words.
25 Q. On the following page in English, I see that all three put
1 forward suggestions as to what the story should be like if they come
2 under investigation of either the Serbian judiciary or the Prosecution of
3 The Hague Tribunal.
4 You go on to say that Kinez emphasised that it would be best if
5 they told the truth but that Ceca did not agree. Ceca said, Kinez, the
6 truth is what we now agree it is, and Ceca insisted on avoiding at all
7 costs any involvement of the JNA by emphatically saying that they only
8 saw uniforms of the Vukovar TO there."
9 A. Yes, that's what Ceca was saying. Although a JNA uniform didn't
10 mean a thing. TO members also wore the same uniforms. Volunteers.
11 Q. Is that in accordance with what Kameni had said before, that any
12 responsibility of JNA members should be avoided so that there should be
13 no negative consequences for Serbia as regards war damages?
14 A. Kameni didn't like that scenario, that he is convicted and that
15 Serbia needn't pay anything after that. But he was convinced it would
16 happen that way.
17 Q. Tell me now what was the difference between what Kinez had said
18 that, you should all say the truth, and Ceca's position that by no means
19 anyone should speak about the JNA's involvement?
20 A. Neither Ceca nor Kinez put forward their truth in my presence
21 because, after all, I don't even know what that truth is. Ceca said a
22 number of times, Well, we needn't involve Stoparic. He wasn't there with
23 us. I even thought of leaving, but it would have been silly. None of
24 them ever said that they killed anyone, this time included.
25 Q. You said that this thesis about the uniforms of TO Vukovar was
1 accepted by all three of them. Do you happen to know if they repeated
2 that in the trial?
3 A. I don't know. When I went to Mr. Seselj's trial, once he
4 mentioned that trial. But the transcripts and all that is something I
5 cannot access. Maybe it can be found on some public site, but I never
6 looked for it. I do believe that Kameni took this line of defence that
7 he had indicated then.
8 Q. On the following page, you say what the conclusion was, what they
9 had -- what they agreed on. Now you're saying that they were at a
10 meeting in the staff or headquarters of the SRS and that Miroljub called
11 them to return to Vukovar urgently. That they arrived in the afternoon,
12 as you say here, that they sought out Miroljub and found him at Ovcara,
13 that Kameni tried to take one of the prisoners out but Miroljub didn't
14 allow it. When the killing began, Kameni gave the order to immediately
15 get out of there - I mean the members of your unit - and that Miroljub
16 tried to prevent him, and that this was what they had agreed on that they
17 should say in case they were interrogated.
18 Based on what we read here, what, in fact, is not true?
19 A. The events at Ovcara, what Miroljub told Kameni, and the rescue
20 of that neighbour, I have no way of knowing if that's true. It is true
21 that they came from Belgrade and that I spoke to them over the radio or
22 the phone, and that they came in, in the evening.
23 Everything else, apart from these facts, are things I don't know.
24 These are mostly Kameni's words. Kameni said that everybody
25 should say that.
1 Q. On the following page, there is a statement of reasons, and you
2 mark them with asterisks, and the second asterisk -- at the second
3 asterisk, you say that this is a -- this is why they came up with this
4 story. They say they only found members of the TO at Ovcara, in fact,
5 they emphasised this:
6 "This was Ceca's idea and it was composed into the story."
7 It was put into the story.
8 A. Yes, Ceca insisted on this. I can only make assumptions as to
9 his reasons.
10 Q. When you say that this was Ceca's idea, to me it sounds like it
11 doesn't really reflect what in fact happened there?
12 A. When we're looking at the these photographs, we also saw Ceca. I
13 recognised him. He was wearing a JNA uniform. That may be one of his
14 reasons. I can only make assumptions.
15 Look at the photograph. You will see that he was wearing a new
16 camouflage JNA uniform. Not everybody had such uniforms at the time.
17 Yes, he was the one who insisted that this should be said.
18 Q. Let's take a look at the next bullet point or asterisk.
19 "Talking about how men were removed from vehicles, they agreed
20 that if anyone should ask what type of vehicle they were, they would say
21 tractors and tractor-trailers without mentioning JNA vehicles."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That's also what they agreed to say.
24 A. Yes. Everything that had to do with the JNA was Ceca's idea. I
25 don't know why he insisted on this JNA so much.
1 Q. You may know - at least to the extent you followed the Vukovar
2 trial - there was much insistence on tractors and tractor-trailers.
3 A. I mostly followed through the media and the media didn't really
4 cover all the details, so at the trial they were mentioning tractors.
5 Q. My question is merely because you said that you followed the
6 Ovcara trial in Belgrade and probably the Ovcara here in this -- before
7 this Tribunal, that it was nearly always said that the victims were taken
8 away on tractor-trailers. You may have noticed that.
9 A. I don't remember. I had limited means of following the trial in
10 Belgrade, and I'm not sure when I wrote this, when exactly I wrote this.
11 Possibly the -- the trial had already begun. Or maybe the investigation
12 was under way. I can't really tell.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stoparic. I have finished examining you.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President. I have finished with
15 my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
17 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, we have no re-direct at this time.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: No re-direct. Okay.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stoparac, this is -- Stoparic, sorry. This
22 is the end of your testimony before the Tribunal. We thank you very much
23 for coming to The Hague to assist us. You're now released as a witness.
24 The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom, and we wish you a
25 safe journey home.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of May,
5 2013, at 9.00 a.m.