Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4712

 1                           Wednesday, 15 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10     Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

12             May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

13     please.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15     Douglas Stringer, Lisa Biersay, Thomas Laugel, and Ivana Martinovic for

16     the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

18             For the Defence.  Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

22             The witness may be brought in.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Stoparic.  Let me remind you

25     that you are still under oath.


Page 4713

 1             Ms. Biersay, please proceed.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           WITNESS:  GORAN STOPARIC [Resumed]

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Stoparic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Yesterday we ended when you were discussing the building where

 9     you went to to register as a volunteer with the TO of the SBWS.

10             And this morning, I'd like to pick up on that.  And specifically

11     I'd like you to describe to the Trial Chamber the people that you saw and

12     recognised on the day that you went to register.

13        A.   Well, the man who I believe was the main person in that office

14     who in the end gave me some sort of certificate was called Filipovic.

15     There were other people there.  There were some women in uniform who were

16     making coffee.  But that man, Filipovic, I believe, was person number one

17     because when I came I produced my ID, and he said, I don't need your ID.

18     You have to give me your military service book.  I didn't have it on me,

19     so I went back home and brought back my military service book because he

20     said the JNA does not allow people who have war-time assignment in their

21     military service book to register.  I did not have a war-time assignment,

22     so I was able to register.  Then I went to the other building, which was

23     the seat of the peacetime TO.  That's where I got a uniform and I got a

24     weapon in an area of Sid called Vasariste.

25        Q.   If we could just step back for one moment.  Do you recall what

Page 4714

 1     Mr. Filipovic was wearing at the time you were in the recruitment office?

 2        A.   Every time, when I saw him later, including on TV, he was wearing

 3     a red jacket.  That's how I remember him.

 4        Q.   You described him as the main person.  Did you recognise any

 5     other individuals associated with the government of the SBWS?

 6        A.   I knew all those people.  They are from the area.  I didn't know

 7     this Filipovic, but I knew other people.  Some were from Tovarnik or the

 8     environs.  From the locality.  The man who was linked to the government,

 9     among others, was a man called Grahovac.  I saw him several times too.

10        Q.   At this time, turning to tab 18, please, which is 65 ter number

11     443.  And it's dated 18 October 1991.  And this document was previously

12     discussed with the witness just before Mr. Stoparic.

13             I'd like to direct your attention to the upper right-hand corner

14     where it lists the place and the date.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And --

17        A.   Yes.  It -- it's probably that certificate or a document made in

18     Sid on 18th of October, 1991, Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and

19     Western Srem.

20        Q.   And at the bottom, there is a -- it says "for the chief" and the

21     signature Dusan Filipovic.  Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   Now, directing your attention to the middle of that document, it

24     reads:

25             "The remaining part of the unit is registered with the commander

Page 4715

 1     of the unit.

 2             "Commander Milan Lancuzanin is responsible for the activities of

 3     the unit."

 4             And it's referring to the Leva Supoderica detachment.  Do you

 5     recognise the name Milan Lancuzanin?

 6        A.   Yes, that's my commander.  That was my commander at the time.

 7     Milan Lancuzanin, also mean as Kameni.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we'd move for the admission of 65 ter

10     number 443 please.  65 ter number 443.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't know how the Registrar does this, but he

13     tells me that this is a document part of the Theunens package.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Exactly.  And I did mention that it was used with

15     him.  As we did with Mr. Theunens where documents that were specifically

16     discussed individually were moved for admission, this separate, and I

17     think because the witness is able to speak about it, it can be admitted

18     separately from the package.  Once the package is prepared for

19     consideration, we'll already have a P number for it and it won't be

20     before the Court for consideration.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.  Okay.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1727.  Thank you.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

24        Q.   You described that you received your weapon from the peacetime --

25     excuse me, your uniform from the peacetime TO.  Is that correct?  Did I

Page 4716

 1     understand that correctly?

 2        A.   No.  That's what I said, but I meant that in that building of the

 3     local commune of Sid there were offices even before the war of the

 4     Territorial Defence, and from their depots we got uniforms, the old

 5     uniforms, the old type.  We called them SNB.  That means

 6     olive-green-grey.

 7        Q.   And which TO are we talking about now when you say there are

 8     offices even before the war of the Territorial Defence?  Do you mean the

 9     SBWS or another TO?

10        A.   That's most probably the Yugoslav TO or the TO of the Republic of

11     Serbia.  I don't know how it was divided then.  In my mind, it was the

12     TO.

13        Q.   When you went to receive your weapon, what forces were present?

14        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.  There was a non-commissioned officer

15     who distributed weapons to us from a case on top of a truck.  It was

16     conserved weapons in their lubricant.  We had to clean them first.  And

17     there by the depots a unit was formed that was headed by Zeljko Krnjajic.

18     He had a deputy named Vojkapic.  I was one of the men who received

19     weapons there who tried the weapons to test them to see if they work

20     correctly.

21             So it was the Yugoslav People's Army that provided us with

22     weapons.

23        Q.   Now you describe in your statement that you later went to

24     Tovarnik.  Could you describe the -- the convoy that went from Sid to

25     Tovarnik with volunteers?

Page 4717

 1        A.   We did not go to Tovarnik in a convoy of vehicles.  Instead,

 2     coming halfway, we got off the Pinzgauers and we deployed in a line:  One

 3     vehicle, a man, then one vehicle, one man.  And then getting closer to

 4     Tovarnik we got hand-grenades, and the shooting already started there.

 5        Q.   And when you say coming halfway, what do you mean?  Coming

 6     halfway of what?  From the journey from Sid to Tovarnik?

 7        A.   You see, Sid and Tovarnik are very close to one another.  From

 8     the centre of the village, I can see the square in Tovarnik.  It's about

 9     5 or 6 kilometres, so somewhere halfway is the border between Serbia and

10     the territory of Tovarnik, which is Croatia.  So we were standing right

11     there at the border, and that's where we fanned out.

12        Q.   Now, you say that from Sid you could see the square in Tovarnik.

13     Where there any landmarks that you could specifically see from Sid?

14        A.   I said that to describe how close it was.  You could see the

15     tower of the church.  Every village has a church and the type of church

16     depends of the ethnic community which is in the majority there.  That's

17     what I meant to say, that we were very close.

18        Q.   When you went from Sid to Tovarnik, did you have your weapon with

19     you?

20        A.   I had my automatic rifle, I had a knife that comes with it, I had

21     a combat set of ammunition, and I believe a gas mask as well.  And the

22     hand-grenades we received when we were already close to the village of

23     Tovarnik, just before the shooting started.

24             There was a NCO from the Royal Motorised Brigade who distributed

25     hand-grenades to us.

Page 4718

 1        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, when you say "NCO," what do you mean by that?

 2        A.   I said officer, and NCO is a non-commissioned officer up to the

 3     rank of warrant officer.  Second-lieutenant and lieutenant are already

 4     officers.  I meant the person who works in the army is -- with a

 5     mid-level education is an NCO.  Those with a high education, with

 6     degrees, they are officers.

 7        Q.   When you participated in the takeover of Tovarnik in September of

 8     1991, who are the company commanders of the Territorial Defence of the

 9     SBWS?

10        A.   I know about the one to which I belonged.  That was

11     Zeljko Krnjajic.  I don't know about the others.  I don't know who

12     commanded what unit.

13             In that area, even locals of Serb ethnicity joined.  The first

14     day they received weapons or they already had weapons.  So it's all a bit

15     of a blur.  I know about my unit.  The commander was Krnjajic and his

16     deputy was Vojkapic.  My platoon commander was somebody from Novi Sad.  I

17     know his name only, Sasa.

18        Q.   From who did you and others in your unit receive orders while you

19     were in Tovarnik?

20        A.   From Krnjajic.  He issued orders.  Or Vojkapic, his deputy.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, in paragraph 12 of your statement --

22             MS. BIERSAY:  And, for reference, it is 65 ter number 5977.

23        Q.   -- you -- and we don't need to look at it, but you describe

24     seeing many dead bodies of Croatian civilians in the streets of Tovarnik.

25     And my question is:  How did you know that those people were Croatians?

Page 4719

 1        A.   I also saw a Serb woman.  I knew it was a Serb woman because she

 2     was the grandmother of a friend of mine in Sid.  I knew because that

 3     village -- I mean, when I say "I knew," I assumed because that village

 4     was -- I don't know the exact percentage, but equally populated in an

 5     equal ratio between Serbs and Croats, and I suppose that if those bodies

 6     were Serb, then their families would have removed the bodies already,

 7     taken them away.  Since they were lying there, I thought they were

 8     Croats.  And there were two or three in uniform among them.  Uniforms of

 9     the Croatian army or police, I don't know.

10        Q.   Where were most of these bodies that you saw?

11        A.   You have never been in a war, so you don't know, but we went

12     through yards.  I saw some bodies in the yards of houses, and the next

13     day I saw several bodies near the petrol station, and the military police

14     was guarding them.

15        Q.   Do you know when or how these civilians were killed?

16        A.   I don't know.  But during the first day of combat operations,

17     there were no bodies there.  We passed by the petrol station, but when we

18     went back the next day, they were there.

19        Q.   And what information, if any, did you have about what had

20     happened to those people whose body you saw?

21        A.   Well, somebody killed them, executed them, or whatever.  Maybe

22     the soldiers had taken them out of their own gardens and yards, but I

23     don't believe so.  They would have put them on a truck if they had

24     removed then.  They were just lying there.

25        Q.   I'd now like to move from Tovarnik to Vukovar.

Page 4720

 1             Mr. Stoparic, how long before the fall of Vukovar did you arrive

 2     there?

 3        A.   I arrived in September from the Lipovaca camp and stayed there

 4     until the end.  I don't know how long that was.

 5             I received two months' salaries for that period.  Now, how long

 6     exactly I spent there, I don't know.  They might have overpaid me, like,

 7     by five or six days.  Anyway, it counted as two months' salary.

 8             I had a certificate that I received at Velepromet that I was a

 9     member of Leva Supoderica, stating the period when I was at Vukovar.

10     However, a warrant officer took that certificate from me when he was

11     paying out my salary, so I don't know exactly how many days.

12        Q.   Where were you paid?

13        A.   In Belgrade, at Topcider.  It's the barracks of the

14     Guards Brigade.

15        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, could you list the -- for the Trial Chamber the

16     forces that were present in Vukovar when you were there, the ones that

17     you knew of.

18        A.   Yes, those that I knew about.  We were there, the unit of

19     Leva Supoderica.  There was the Guards Brigade.  In our sector, there was

20     also the Territorial Defence.  I will say TO for short.  Don't ask me to

21     say every time Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

22     Srem.  There was the TO.  There were two commanders there.  One was

23     Stanko Vujanovic, one was Miroljub.  I forget his last name now, but I'll

24     remember it later.  That was on our side where I was involved in combat

25     operations.  On the other side, there was the Arkan's units and probably

Page 4721

 1     the Novi Sad corps.  I don't know about any others.  There were probably

 2     reservists there too.  Maybe there were more volunteer groups but I don't

 3     know their names and I didn't run into them.

 4        Q.   When you say "on our side, and then you say "on the other side,"

 5     what do you mean by "our side?

 6        A.   I arrived in Vukovar from the direction of Negoslavci.

 7     Petrova Gora.  There were other axes, such as Sotin.  I believe the

 8     operations in Vukovar were divided into south and north.  I was on the

 9     south side, and I believe those groups in the north were working on the

10     other side of the city.  We from Leva Supoderica did Sveto Naselje,

11     Petrovo Brdo, and such.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we now please have tab 8, which is 65 ter

13     number 6317, on the screen, please.  And this should be a Google map of

14     the Vukovar area that was generated last year.

15        Q.   And what I'll ask you to do, Mr. Stoparic, is to identify some

16     locations of the relevant forces that you just described.

17        A.   Yes, but it doesn't have to be 100 per cent correct.  It's going

18     to be roughly about my unit.

19        Q.   Right.  But one minute.  But one minute, Mr. Stoparic.  I just

20     wanted to ...

21             Can you -- can you see clearly those areas that you are familiar

22     with?  Just in general.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  So, for example, you describe the south and the north.

25     Could you perhaps draw the dividing line of those two sections?

Page 4722

 1        A.   I'll draw a dividing line showing the part of the city where I

 2     did not go.  I believe it's something like this.

 3        Q.   And which side were you on for the -- the south?

 4        A.   I can mark where our headquarters was and where we spent the

 5     nights when we were not in action.  This is Nova Ulica, Nova street, so

 6     it's somewhere here, and we slept in these houses around.  Two houses

 7     here were used as a headquarters.  One was a small depot and one was the

 8     headquarters of the command.

 9        Q.   Now if could you draw a circle around those dots that you've made

10     and draw a line to the side and just put number 1 so that later we can

11     follow what the markings are.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   So the houses.  And you described Vujanovic as being a commander.

14     Where was he located primarily?

15        A.   Well, I cannot tell you exactly where he was based.  I don't

16     know.  But I know where his men were deployed.  I can show you that.  I

17     know where they held the lines.

18        Q.   And where is that, if you could please mark it.

19        A.   If this is the 1st of May Street, then they held the line from

20     here to here.  Or maybe even up to here.  So this sector.

21        Q.   And could you mark that with a number 2.  I see that you've

22     circled it.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Is Leva Supoderica also a neighbourhood of the Vukovar area?

25        A.   As far as I know, there were two neighbourhoods.  One was called

Page 4723

 1     Leva Supoderica, another was Desna Supoderica.  Other neighbourhoods were

 2     Petro Gora, Mitnica, and others, and I think it's to the left from where

 3     we were.

 4        Q.   Could you describe to the Trial Chamber -- well, first let me ask

 5     you:  Did you have a chance to see the Petrova Gora neighbourhood?

 6        A.   That's how I came to this street.  I mean, I went by way of

 7     Petrova Gora.  Actually, all of this is Petrova Gora, I think.  The

 8     houses, they were well-preserved.  They were not completely destroyed.

 9     Anyway, they were inhabitable.  They didn't leak.  I think that all of

10     this was Petrova Gora.

11        Q.   And do you know what the predominant ethnicity was of the

12     Petrova Gora neighbourhood?

13        A.   I'm not certain because the whole city was mixed.  But I think

14     that by chance it was the Serbs who were the majority in Petrova Gora.

15     But don't take my word for it.  There were both Croats and Serbs in the

16     town, but there were also Slovaks and Hungarians and so on.  I do

17     believe, though, that the Serbs had the largest share in Petrova Gora.

18        Q.   And do you know on this map where the SBWS TO forces were

19     located?

20        A.   Depending on where activities were launched, they were always

21     next to us.  We were doing things, they were doing things.  Not sure what

22     you mean.  I showed you where the front line was at some point.  Of

23     course, it moved.  But what I described was the situation during the

24     first week.  This is the 1st of May Street here, and that's where the

25     front line was.  Although I can't see the name of the street here, but

Page 4724

 1     this should be it.

 2        Q.   Could you describe for the Trial Chamber the structure of combat

 3     deployment for actions.

 4        A.   The organisation was as in any other army.  There were companies,

 5     platoons, squads, and the army would present us their plan.  It was

 6     usually Captain Zirojevic [phoen] who came to us, or Captain Radic.  They

 7     would bring aerial maps and then the table of code-names to use, and then

 8     they would say where they would -- artillery preparation, where we would

 9     go in.  We would usually be in the middle, and Miroljub and Stanko would

10     be on the left and right sides respectively.

11        Q.   When you say "we," do you mean the Leva Supoderica detachment?

12        A.   Yes.  Under the command of Kameni.  I mean the Leva Supoderica

13     detachment.  Because, as far as I know, officially we were volunteers of

14     the Guards Brigade.  The TO was separate.  Of course, they also had links

15     with the JNA.  But most of us at Leva Supoderica were from outside, from

16     Serbia.  Although there were locals too.  The commander was a local.  And

17     there were also other people from the area, the town and the surrounding

18     villages.

19        Q.   Regarding Captain Radic, could you describe with what unit or

20     brigade he was with.

21        A.   He was an officer of the Guards Brigade.  I'm not sure now

22     whether it was the 1st Guards Brigade or whatever the exact name was.

23     I'll simply stick to Guards Brigade.  At the time he was a captain.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, in your statement, you describe

25     Stanko Vujanovic and Miroljub Vujovic, and I notice that sometimes when

Page 4725

 1     you're speaking you refer simply to Stanko and Miroljub, am I correct

 2     that when you use those first names, you're referring to those two

 3     people?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And this is not for you, Mr. Stoparic.  I'm trying to fill in the

 6     transcript.  So you describe in your statement Stanko Vujanovic and

 7     Miroljub Vujovic.  That's just for the record.

 8             When you had these meetings, were Stanko Vujanovic and

 9     Miroljub Vujovic always there on time?

10        A.   Stanko would mostly come on time, but Miroljub always came late

11     and sometimes didn't come at all.  Stanko came more often.  Where the

12     headquarters was, I believe that one of the houses close was his own

13     private house.  He came often.  But when -- whenever there was a meeting,

14     when we would -- we would try to agree how we would go about things,

15     where we would attack, he would always come late.  He had his own

16     headquarters because, you know, the TO is actually not the main player in

17     war.  It's the JNA.  And the TO also had responsibilities toward the

18     district and who knows what they had to do.  But that's probably how

19     things were.

20        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to the day you were serving

21     as a duty officer at the command post of Leva Supoderica.  Do you recall

22     that morning?

23        A.   Yes.  On that day, or, rather, that evening, Ovcara happened.

24        Q.   And while you were at the command post, do you recall receiving

25     some urgent phone calls in the morning?

Page 4726

 1        A.   Well, you see, our commander and many officers, that is, all

 2     company commanders, had left for Belgrade.  They weren't there.  They

 3     weren't in Vukovar as all.  They went to see Seselj at the Radical Party.

 4     And Miroljub called and asked for Kameni a number of times.  Then we gave

 5     him the phone number of the place where Kameni was and probably he called

 6     him there.  He didn't call us any longer.  Because we had this

 7     military-style telephone at our headquarters and Motorolas.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, we still have that marked map on the

 9     screen.  Is that okay with you?

10             MS. BIERSAY:  For now, yes, Your Honour.  I will go ahead and

11     tender it now and we can come back to it if need be.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1728.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MS. BIERSAY:

16        Q.   When did you see Kameni that day?

17        A.   In the evening, when he got there.  Before that, I spoke to him

18     on the spoken.  Because I was a duty officer day and night and he had

19     taken everybody else with him, so there was no one to relieve me.  I

20     tried a number of times to contact him but he was not available.  And he

21     told me, Well, do stay on for a little longer and then there will be

22     someone to relieve you.  And then Kinez came, Mare, Djo, Ceca, these are

23     the nicknames of our officers.  I will give you their true names later.

24     I may have forgotten some names but I remember most of them.

25             Later he asked for the count of men, and then I went to see the

Page 4727

 1     platoon commanders or squad commanders to inquire, and then I gave him

 2     the information.  And Kameni said, I'm not interested in those who are

 3     absent with leave because some did have leave to go and see their

 4     families.  He was interested in those who had gone AWOL.

 5        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you said those names very quickly when you were

 6     discussing people who were with Kameni.  Could you repeat them again,

 7     please, and say them a little bit more slowly so that we can record them

 8     on the record.

 9        A.   All right.  Kameni, that's Milan Lancuzanin, the commander.  He

10     was accompanied by the commander of the 1st Company, Kinez.  His true

11     name is Predrag Milojevic.  The 2nd Company commander, I forget his name

12     but we called him Ceca.  And there was another commander whose true name

13     I also forget but we called him Mare, and one more commander who we

14     called Mali Djo, little Joe.  I may remember some names later, but we

15     usually call each other by nicknames so that's why I remember those

16     better.

17        Q.   What does the nickname Kinez mean?

18        A.   Kinez, it means the Chinese in English, or Chinaman.  He had

19     almond eyes.

20        Q.   I'd like to now direct your attention, and I'd like you to

21     actually see it so you know what I mean.  This is tab 1, your statement,

22     65 ter number 5977.  And in the English, it would be on page 8,

23     paragraph 36.

24             Now in 36 --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 4728

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you very much for the reminder.

 2        Q.   There's a sentence that reads:

 3             "They returned around noon."

 4             Do you see that sentence?  And you're talking about Kameni, Ceca,

 5     Kinez, and Djo.  And when you say they returned around noon, where did

 6     they return to?

 7        A.   Probably to Vukovar because he called me.  He couldn't have

 8     called me from Belgrade using a Motorola.  Or, actually, that's wrong.  I

 9     called him a number of times, and then once he actually answered.

10        Q.   And then -- so if I understand you correctly, they returned

11     around noon to the Vukovar area, and that's where you believe they

12     contacted you by Motorola?

13        A.   Not all.  Only the commander, Kameni.  I saw them on that

14     evening, when they all came to the headquarters.

15        Q.   And how -- how is it that, in your mind, you're giving the time

16     of when they came to the headquarters?

17        A.   Well, you see, it was November.  Around 5.00 it -- it gets dark.

18     Maybe even earlier.  But I'm not sure I really understand your question.

19     You mean based on what I know that they actually -- actually came in the

20     evening?  Well, because it was evening.  It was dark.

21        Q.   So you remember --

22        A.   The lights were on.

23        Q.   You remember the time, is that --

24        A.   That's what I remember, yes.  I don't know what else to say.

25     That's how I remember it.

Page 4729

 1        Q.   Now, when you first began answering the question, you said it was

 2     the day of -- or the day of the Ovcara killing.  How soon did you learn

 3     about the Ovcara killings?

 4        A.   I didn't know back then or at that moment.  But I asked Kameni,

 5     What's happening?  Why do you need the numbers of those present?  And

 6     then he said, Things are happening that shouldn't be happening.  And a

 7     few hours later, the first rumours arrived about large-scale executions.

 8     I didn't know it was about Ovcara though.  Only on the following day I

 9     learned that the site of the killings was Ovcara.

10        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I'd now like to fast forward --

11        A.   And, excuse me, a soldier of mine also told me - a platoon

12     commander - he said that he had been at Ovcara and that he had killed

13     people with his knife.  I didn't believe him, of course.  But now he is

14     convicted.  He got 20 years' of imprisonment in Belgrade.

15        Q.   What is his name?

16        A.   Djordje, Soskic.  He was in my platoon.  I was his platoon

17     commander.

18        Q.   Did there come a time, Mr. Stoparic, in either 2002 or 2003 when

19     you had a meeting with Kameni, Ceca, and Kinez?

20        A.   Well, I didn't really socialise with Kameni, but we met every

21     day.  We lived in the same town.  He had a number of cerebral strokes

22     though and he was an invalid, and he would always call me or a relative

23     of his when he to go somewhere because he was afraid of going by car on

24     his own.  So I was there to help him with his private affairs, and once

25     rumours started spreading that the Ovcara incident would be taken to

Page 4730

 1     court in Serbia, they started meeting to decide what to say when the

 2     police started interviewing them.  Kinez was even interviewed and

 3     connected to a polygraph.  I think, though, that most of what they said

 4     was actually true.  Of course, I don't really know what happened at

 5     Ovcara because I didn't see any of that.

 6        Q.   Did Kameni have a point of view about what was to be said about

 7     the time that he arrived at the command post where you were?

 8        A.   I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but they must have

 9     arrived at the command post earlier and that they had been at Ovcara and

10     seen what was happening, that Kameni tried to save a neighbour but

11     Miroljub didn't let him.  And Kameni told his people, Let's get out of

12     here.  And that was the story.

13             And I can neither corroborate nor deny it because I wasn't there.

14     But I told you when he came to the headquarters, it was evening-time.

15     And during the day, we spoke to each other, that's true.  But what really

16     happened there, I can only suppose and stick to the Belgrade judgements.

17     They were all convicted, all but one who was acquitted.  Everybody else

18     was convicted.  Mare was acquitted, I think.

19             MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] If I could have one

20     moment.

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, I'd like to play a clip.  It's found

23     at tab 95, and it's 65 ter number 4885.1.  And I will be playing this

24     without the sound.

25             And after watching parts of this clip, then I'll show some stills

Page 4731

 1     and ask Mr. Stoparic if he recognises the people.

 2        Q.   So, Mr. Stoparic, we'll just let this -- this run and then I'll

 3     ask you about it at the end.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Pause it, please.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry -- sorry.  I don't why this clip is without

 8     sound.  It has the sound.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  It does have a sound.  I'm not asking Mr. Stoparic

10     to opine on the contents.  It's merely for identification of the people.

11     And if the -- I believe the interpreters do have the transcript that we

12     delivered, but I'm not asking Mr. Stoparic about the sound.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. BIERSAY:

16        Q.   I'd like to talk about the very last image that we saw in this

17     clip.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And, for the record, this clip goes from 02 hours,

19     49 minutes, 21 second, to 02 hours, 49 minutes, 37 seconds; and then to

20     02 hour, 52 minute, and 25 seconds to 02 hour and 59 minutes and 37

21     seconds.

22        Q.   Just re-playing it because what I'd like to do is freeze at the

23     very end and ask if you recognise anyone.  I know you recognised some

24     people in this part, but we don't talk about this right away.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 4732

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, do you recognise the person at 02 hour, 52 minutes,

 3     and 45 seconds?

 4        A.   Yes.  This is the man who I mentioned who boasted to me.  I was

 5     his platoon commander.  His name is Djordje Soskic and he is from

 6     Krusevac.

 7        Q.   What is he wearing because there are two men in that frame?

 8        A.   Well, yeah, one of them is a civilian and the other is wearing a

 9     short jacket probably from some house.  It's -- we called this kind of

10     jacket spit-fire jacket.  It was called, you know.

11             He was a soldier but he was wearing a civilian jacket over his

12     uniform.

13        Q.   And at this time we tender 65 ter number 4885.1.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Out of abundance of caution, Ms. Biersay, which

15     one of the two persons did the witness identify?  Because that's not

16     clear from his answer.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Perhaps I can assist with the next exhibit, which

18     will be 4885.2, the stills.  That may assist.

19             I wanted to freeze it here because this is actually a better

20     image than the still I'm about to show --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, but I'm sure the witness knows who he is

22     talking about.  But is the man he names the civilian or the military

23     person with the helmet?

24             MS. BIERSAY:

25        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, the man that you named, is he on the right or the

Page 4733

 1     left of this frame?

 2        A.   It's the man on the right, wearing a helmet.

 3        Q.   And is that the man who was in -- over whom you had command, who

 4     told you about Ovcara?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  Djordje Soskic, nicknamed Zordze, Djordje.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we tender 65 ter 4885.1.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, with or without transcript?  Because

 9     this -- this 65 ter number has both.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Correct.  Without the transcripts, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1729.  Thank you.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could turn to 65 ter number 4885.2,

14     please.

15        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, directing your attention to page 1 of this exhibit,

16     and specifically to the left, the man that we see in that left corner, do

17     you recognise that man?

18        A.   Yes.  It's Predrag Miljevic, nicknamed Kinez, commander of the

19     1st Company of the Leva Supoderica Unit.  You can see why they called him

20     Chinaman; he has slit eyes.

21        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, would you be so kind as to take that electronic pen

22     and circle the person you just described.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   And I think in order --

25             MS. BIERSAY:  We have several more pages, but I think in order to

Page 4734

 1     capture the mark I'll have to tender this page now.  If it works

 2     technologically, I can wait to the end as well.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, so --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm just wondering whether we are adding

 6     documents unnecessary.  I mean, there's only one -- one person in the

 7     left corner of this picture.  So what is the marking -- what is the use

 8     of the marking?

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  If the Court does not find it helpful, then I'm

10     happy to move onto the next -- to the next one.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't think it's helpful.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  So if we could now move to the second page of this

13     exhibit.

14        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in this still?

15        A.   Yes.  The one on the far left is the man nicknamed Ceca.  He was

16     also a commander in the Leva Supoderica Unit.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  And is the Trial Chamber satisfied that it's

18     properly identified?

19             And the next page, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here -- can I -- can I speak.

21             MS. BIERSAY:

22        Q.   Yes, please.

23        A.   On the far right we see again Ceca, the man from the previous

24     picture.  The one on the left is Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni,

25     wearing eyeglasses.

Page 4735

 1        Q.   And by eyeglasses, do you mean dark glasses, sun-glasses?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's Milan Lancuzanin, aka Kameni.  And the one on the

 3     right is the man from the previous photograph, nicknamed Ceca.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And the next page, please.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise anybody in this still?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is Topola.  Again, I forget his real name.  The man

 7     wearing this hat who's -- like has his hand on the child's head is

 8     Topola, in the centre of the picture.

 9        Q.   And if we could now move to the next page, please.  And I know

10     it's a bit blurry, but do you recognise anyone in this one?

11        A.   Yes.  That's Djordje Soskic.

12        Q.   Thank you Mr. Stoparic.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, we tender 65 ter number 4885.2.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1730.  Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I have a clarifying question.

18             Previously when we were discussing the -- the meetings, the

19     briefings, held with Captain Radic, and I will read it to you.  It says:

20             "The TO is actually not the main player in war.  It's the JNA.

21     And the TO also had responsibilities toward the district and who knows

22     what they had to do."

23             When you say "toward the district," what do you mean by that?

24        A.   When I say who knows what they had to do, I meant to say God

25     knows what other duties they had.  And as for the district, at that time,

Page 4736

 1     they had formed an autonomous district and they had their own government

 2     or a Crisis Staff, that's what I meant.  They participated in the war and

 3     it's basically from that Territorial Defence that the police force was

 4     later established and the Army of the Serbian Krajina.  The TO was the

 5     basis.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  And now moving to tab 99, which is 65 ter number

 7     4809.7, and the time code runs from 00 to 3 minutes and 39 seconds.

 8        Q.   So I'm going to ask that the video be played.  And at some point,

 9     I'm going to pause it and ask if you recognise the -- the background

10     location.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] This is the first session of the

13     government held in our future capital of our Serb region of Slavonia,

14     Baranja, and Western Srem, regarding the conclusions in addition to those

15     connected with the normalisation of life and the restoration of the

16     normal situation.  One of the basic conclusion is the prisoners, Ustashas

17     with blood on their hands may not leave the territory of the SBWS.  They

18     cannot go to Serbia ..."

19             MS. BIERSAY:  At this I asked that the video be paused.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the background of this image?

21        A.   Yes.  That's my town, Sid.  This is the municipal building.  Next

22     to it is the police building.

23        Q.   And --

24        A.   Unless the street name is changed, this could be Sava Sumanovic

25     Street or it could be Karadjordjevo Street.  I haven't lived there for a

Page 4737

 1     long time so I don't know, but this is the centre of the town.

 2        Q.   And do you recognise the military uniform in that still?

 3        A.   Yes.  That was the TO SBWS uniform.  It was the -- the green

 4     fatigues.  I remember when they issued this uniform.

 5        Q.   I'd ask that we continue playing this video.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Reporter: ... because Serbia is a

 8     state which is not at war.  Also, the troops that assisted in the

 9     capturing, they're not real soldiers, they're paramilitaries.  Only our

10     people of our Serb region which is recognised can try them.  The appeals

11     court would perhaps be at the Yugoslav level, the federal level, but the

12     first instance trial would be here before our authorities.  The agreement

13     is with the military authorities that they would remain in some of our

14     camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar, since one group was already taken

15     to Sremska Mitrovica.  I undertook the task to return these people, if

16     they can be called humans at all, to return them there and to put them to

17     trial.  How do you estimate the total number of those members of the

18     Croatian paramilitaries?  We have -- hear different figures:  200

19     surrendered two nights ago, approximately 1 .000 today, so what numbers

20     are we talking about?

21             "Hadzic:  I believe the number is close to 3.000, roughly 3.000

22     of mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are still many hiding among

23     the civilians.  However, there are many honest people as well.  Our

24     primary task is to investigate everything and not to let anyone who is

25     innocent get hurt or harassed.  It's better to have culprit slip through

Page 4738

 1     than to harm somebody innocent.  That is our task and we have our own

 2     legal and police authorities, so we'll work to prevent any prosecution of

 3     innocent people.

 4             "How is the establishment of the civilian rule in Vukovar going

 5     on?

 6             "Well, today was the first step.  We have been prepared for this

 7     event.  Unfortunately was overly optimistic thinking that Vukovar was not

 8     to devastated.  Today, when I saw it, I think there no words to describe

 9     it.  Literally.  There is not a single undamaged house.  There are even

10     bodies still strewn in the street; thus, we first have to have our

11     Ministry of Health and our medics or the vets prevent contagion, remove

12     those corpses, and then we have to start normalising life.  The people

13     who carried out this fight on their backs, those are people from

14     Petrova Gora, without them this struggle of ours for Vukovar would have

15     been lost.  I'm using this opportunity to thank them for what they've

16     done.  We've scheduled our next meeting for tomorrow with one group of

17     ministers and the representatives of those people to find bodies to -- to

18     found bodies, to establish civilian rule in town.  It's agreed with

19     military authorities that civilian authorities will soon take over.

20             "Does it imply that you will take off your uniform soon?

21             Hadzic:  Well I'm the representative of the Serb people, elected

22     by the Serbs.  If the Serb people who appointed me believe that the

23     borders are now satisfactory I will take off my uniform, but I personally

24     believe that I should keep it on for some time yet."

25             MS. BIERSAY:

Page 4739

 1        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, reference was made to the people from Petrova Gora.

 2     To whom do you believe this to refer to?

 3        A.   Well, he said it:  TO from Petrova Gora.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, at this time we'd ask that this clip

 5     be marked for identification.  I understand that it was not in the bundle

 6     of videos yet received by the Registrar.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And is that why you asked it to be marked for

 8     identification?

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, okay.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1731, marked for

12     identification.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:

15        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether Leva Supoderica was

16     associated with any political parties?

17        A.   When I just arrived, I didn't know that.  However, at the lineup

18     Kameni told us, although there was another officer who was there.  I was

19     not sure at the time who was the real commander the first two days.

20     There was another officer, Zoran Paripovic, nicknamed Tito.  The two of

21     them were the main two.  They said that most of the men were sent by the

22     Serbian Radical Party from Serbia.  I was not one of those.  But I found

23     out then that the Serbian Radical Party organised volunteer groups, and

24     later I became myself a member of such volunteer units in other areas of

25     Yugoslavia later.

Page 4740

 1        Q.   In this context I'd now like to turn to tab 93, which is 65 ter

 2     number 4760.1.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, for one moment, Your Honour.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. BIERSAY:

 7        Q.   Before we play that video, I'd like to ask you some questions

 8     about who co-ordinated the organisation of the SRS volunteers and to send

 9     them to other areas.  Do you recall who in the SRS was responsible for

10     that?

11        A.   You see, at the HQ of the party in Belgrade, there was a Crisis

12     Staff during the war.  And in that Crisis Staff there was

13     Zoran Drazilovic and Ljubisa Petkovic.  Ljubisa Petkovic, I believe, was

14     the head of the Crisis Staff and he was the co-ordinator.  He organised

15     the volunteers.

16        Q.   And could you describe to the -- the -- the Trial Chamber how

17     they were actually moved from Belgrade to other places where they were

18     deployed?

19        A.   First, you go to Belgrade, to that Crisis Staff, and then a file

20     is opened for you; that is to say, if you are a new-comer.  They take

21     your ID and they take down your personal data, including specific

22     features, such as birth marks, tattoos, et cetera, and from there you go

23     to Bubanj Potok which is the barracks of the JNA near Belgrade, and there

24     we undergo a short training.  We get equipment and weapons.  And from

25     there, I departed twice from that same place, we went through the

Page 4741

 1     airport, and from there to the Banja Luka airport and the Bihac airport.

 2     That's how we travelled.  Sometimes we travelled by bus to Herzegovina.

 3     It depends.

 4        Q.   And now turning to tab 93, 65 ter number 4760.1.  And my

 5     intention is to play the -- the clip, and perhaps towards the end I will

 6     stop it to ask you if you recognise anyone.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Well, good look.  Maybe a good

 9     mediator for these conflicts would be if not Arkan then, for example,

10     Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian Radical Party.  He has not

11     reached Mostar yet, but today he stayed on Mount Romanija.

12             "Reporter:  On the first day of the referendum

13     Dr. Vojislav Seselj, the Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda and the president of the

14     Serbian Radical Party, arrived today in Republika Srpska.  As soon as he

15     arrived he crossed the Drina river, he went to visit our defenders on the

16     first line of defence.  Afterwards, he visited Knezina, a village and

17     monastery in free Serbian Romanija, the oath of the new Serbian Chetnik

18     Vojvodas.

19             "Unknown man:  Order number 124.  As the only Chetnik Vojvoda

20     directly engaged in the present-day struggle for the liberation of the

21     Serbian people and following the tradition of Serbian Chetniks, for

22     exceptional achievements in this war, great heroism, and proven arts of

23     war of the most distinguished Chetnik commanders I hereby pronounce ...

24             "Report:  Romanija, a mountain that does not speak to its

25     enemies, rejoiced at the oath of 18 new Vojvodas, an oath it had not

Page 4742

 1     heard for 50 years.

 2             "The Vojvodas:  I swear as the Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda ..."

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   I ask that the video be paused, Mr. Stoparic, and referring to

 5     your statement in paragraph 5, you described that there were 19 SRS

 6     Vojvodas and you describe what was required in order to become a Vojvoda

 7     that you had to have 500 volunteers under your control.  Is this

 8     consistent with the proclamations of the Vojvodas that you describe in

 9     your statement in paragraph 5.

10        A.   Well, I heard that figure, 500, from Kameni when he became a

11     Vojvoda.  He was saying that there should be no less than 500 volunteers

12     so that they can be raised at any time.  But Seselj did not give this

13     title only to commanders.  Also to politicians, people from the Crisis

14     Staff, including the Ljubisa Petkovic and the current present of Serbia,

15     Tomislav Nikolic.  Not all of those who received the title had been in

16     the war.  Some of them would not survive two minutes of combat.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   In Seselj's opinion, they deserve it for other reasons.  Here on

19     the photo we see Kameni.

20        Q.   And you're specifically discussing 1 minute and 27 seconds.  And

21     what -- where is Kameni?

22        A.   In the centre.  He is holding the candle lower than the men

23     around him.

24        Q.   And --

25        A.   Fair hair.  Not one with the dark hair, the one with fair hair.

Page 4743

 1        Q.   Was he named as a Vojvoda before or after Vukovar?

 2        A.   Not before Vukovar.  Nobody was given the title before.  It was

 3     after.  First of all, they had to deserve this honour.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could please continue the video.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Seselj I swear to God and

 7     Saint Sava.

 8             "The men repeat.

 9             "Seselj:  That I will fight with all my might for the freedom of

10     the Serbian people.

11             "The men repeat.

12             "Seselj:  And the restoration of a unified Serbian state in the

13     Balkans which will encompass all Serbian lands.

14             "The men repeat the oath.

15             "Seselj:  So God help me.

16             "Amen.

17             "Good luck and bless you.  May God give you a long life.

18             "Reporter:  One can trust, then, that it's indeed going to be so.

19     The rank of Chetnik Vojvoda was bestowed on these Serbian heros from all

20     Serbian areas:  Zdravko Abramovic; Branislav Vakic; Srecko Radovanovic;

21     Slavko Crnic; Nedeljko Vidakovic; Slavko Aleksic; Mitar Maksimovic,

22     Manda; Miroslav Vukovic, Cele; Milika Dacevic, Ceko; Tomislav Nikolic;

23     Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni; Zoran Drazinovic, Cica; Jovo Ostojic; Ljubisa

24     Petkovic; Todor Lazic; Mirko Blagojevic; Dragan Cvetkovic; and

25     Branislav Gavrilovic, Brne."

Page 4744


 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   In addition to Kameni, did you recognise anybody else in that

 4     video we just saw?

 5        A.   Yes, many.  Apart from Seselj there was Drazilovic,

 6     Ljubisa Petkovic, Tomislav Nikolic, those who I know by name.  Then

 7     Vojvoda Manda from Ugljevik, then the one from Sarajevo.  I recognise all

 8     of them.  I just can't give you their names now.  Later on I saw them in

 9     various theatres of war.  Others were very often on television.

10     Blagojevic was there.  Mirko from Bijeljina.  Then Branislav Lakic from

11     Nis.  I recognised many of them.  But they are wearing those long beards

12     and they're all -- they all look the same in this picture.

13        Q.   And for the Vukovar operations, which ones did you recognise from

14     that specific operation?

15        A.   Kameni.  Although some other Vojvodas said later they had been at

16     Vukovar.  Maybe.  But not in my sector.  Even the one from Nis, the

17     Vojvoda from Nis.  He was also in Vukovar.  But out of all those

18     radicals, Kameni was the main one for me.  He was my commander but also a

19     better man, as far as I'm concerned.  And I knew him better.

20        Q.   And at this time we tender 65 ter number 4760.1.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1732.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  And I do see the time, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

Page 4745

 1             Mr. Stoparic, this is the moment we take the first break.  We

 2     will be back at 11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the

 3     courtroom.  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness

 9     to be brought in, I understand that the Registrar has now received the CD

10     containing the clip for MFI 1731, and so I believe now it can receive an

11     exhibit number.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That will be 1731 --

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Correct.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- Mr. Registrar.  Okay.  Thank you.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I'm hoping that the remaining of my questions will

20     take about 20 minutes or so.  I want to quickly talk about Velepromet,

21     then move to a brief discussion on the Skorpions, and then I will show

22     you a video, so that's where I'm going.

23             In your 2003 statement in paragraph 38, you mentioned that you

24     had not heard of a meeting held at Velepromet in which Goran Hadzic

25     participated, and my question to you is:  Did you ever have occasion to

Page 4746

 1     see anyone connected with the SBWS government in Velepromet, in general?

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The question is vague.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Well, I suppose we could see if the witness

 4     understood it, and I'm happy to clarify, if need be.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.  Okay.  Would you be more precise, the

 6     question would become leading, wouldn't it?

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Indeed.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:

10        Q.   So, Mr. Stoparic, did you ever see any representatives of the

11     SBWS government in Velepromet?

12        A.   Well, the TO commanders and the like.  But as for government

13     officials, I didn't really know them all.  I would have recognised

14     Goran Hadzic if I had seen him.  Filipovic, Grahovac too, and another man

15     I would certainly recognise but I forget his name.

16             I did go to Velepromet to get cigarettes and movement permits in

17     the area of combat activity and permits to leave Vukovar, but I don't

18     really remember seeing any one of these people.

19        Q.   Was there an office for the SBWS government in Velepromet?

20        A.   During the war, I don't know.  There was some warehouses there.

21     There were soldiers and the TO.  Probably some civil administration, too.

22     But if it was the government or whether it was administration at town

23     level, there were various people.  There was even a kitchen.  Some sort

24     of administration, yes, but I'm not sure about the level they were at.

25     I'm speaking about the period of combat activity.  I don't know about any

Page 4747

 1     later time.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stoparic.  I'd now like to move to your time at

 3     Djeletovci with the Skorpions, and very briefly could you describe to the

 4     Trial Chamber what armed force -- to what armed force the Skorpions

 5     belonged?  I know there's a complex history but if you could just make it

 6     as short as possible.

 7        A.   Officially speaking, the Skorpions were part of the Army of the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina.  The commander was General Loncar, or

 9     Loncarevic.  There were also security forces from Serbia who came in

10     often and people were trained there.  There were security structures, the

11     police, and we even had a working relationship with the oil industry of

12     Krajina.  Once I received an envelope from them with German marks, then

13     some money went to Belgrade in Yugoslav dinars, and I also received money

14     from a third source, that's the commander, or sometimes he would give me

15     petrol, a barrel or two, or other times he would give me German marks.

16     It was complicated.

17             The basic task at the Djeletovci base was holding our position.

18     There was the Bosut river and that was a natural border between the

19     then-district of SBWS and the rest of Croatia, and we protected the oil

20     terminal there.  And our secondary tasks were connected with our going to

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But after the Skorpions were disbanded and then we

22     gathered again, we even went to Kosovo.

23        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 72 of your

24     statement.  You talked about the Tigers being based in Erdut and the Red

25     Berets, the JSO, being in Ilok, and the Skorpions in Djeletovci.  Who was

Page 4748

 1     in charge of the Tigers?

 2        A.   Arkan.  And the JSO, they were at Ilok, in a wine cellar in the

 3     direction of Sid called Pajzos.  They had a base there, too.  It was on

 4     the very border between Serbia and Croatia.  Pajzos is situated on the

 5     very border, so a part of the base would be in Serbia and another part in

 6     Croatia.

 7        Q.   I'd like to --

 8        A.   There was a --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

10     of his answer.

11             MS. BIERSAY:

12        Q.   Could I ask you, Mr. Stoparic, for the benefit of the transcript,

13     could you repeat the last thing that you said.

14             You were discussing Pajzos being on the very border, partly in

15     Serbia and another part in Croatia.

16        A.   That's where the members of the JSO were or whatever they called

17     themselves at the time because they were changing names.  JSO was the

18     last name.  And their commander was Franko Simatovic, and they were

19     directly under the state security administration.  They were part of the

20     state security.

21        Q.   You describe also in paragraph 72:

22             "We were all" -- "we were all right along the border with

23     Serbia."

24             Why was the deployment concentrated along the border with Serbia?

25        A.   Because -- actually, it wasn't an observation of mine.  I heard

Page 4749

 1     it from people.  Because you can always go into action, leave fast, and

 2     return fast.  Their actions probably weren't public.

 3        Q.   And when you say "leave fast and return fast," what do you mean

 4     by that?

 5        A.   Well, because you can never say that the unit belongs to SBWS.

 6     They're in Serbia and officially they don't take part in the war

 7     activities.  That's where they were along the border.

 8             Ilok itself is a town in Croatia.  On the other side of the

 9     river, there's Backa Palanka in Serbia.  And the Skorpions went a bit

10     deeper.

11        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, have you ever met Milan Martic?

12        A.   Yes, twice.  At two different periods.  Once I met him when he

13     came to visit us.  We were in an improvised base near Gospic.  And the

14     second time it was in the surroundings of Livno in a nearby village.

15     Mount Dinara, that region.  That's where I saw him for the second time.

16        Q.   I'd now like to play a video and ask you if you recognise any of

17     the speakers.  And I'm now moving to tab 98, which is 65 ter number

18     4990.2.  And, for the record, it's from 1 hour, 1 minute, and 1 second,

19     to 1 hour, 2 minute, and 52 seconds.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd like to -- we did deliver some transcripts and

23     I'm wondering -- I just wanted to confirm if the interpreters have the

24     transcript pertaining to this video-clip.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  We have just found it.

Page 4750

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  So at this time we'll begin from the beginning.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Anyway, the questions are becoming

 4     more specific:  Did Arkan attend the government session where the

 5     minister of defence was discussed?  In which capacity?  Who brought his

 6     unit and is his unit for combat or for creating public order and peace?

 7             "Answer:  This is a string of questions.  I can answer all.

 8     Indeed, Arkan was present at the government session.  And before the

 9     beginning of the government session everyone knows I requested that only

10     the ministers be present because we were discussing important issues, but

11     the prime minister replied telling me that if I met Mr. Raznjatovic, he

12     was a member of the government.  I was astonished and asked if we was

13     with internal affairs or defence.  I didn't know.  I made a small joke.

14     No, he said, he's the special advisor to President Hadzic.  President

15     Hadzic himself confirmed that he was a special advisor and that he was

16     entitled to attend this session.  All I could do was go along with it.

17     As far as his volunteer units are concerned, they're welcome in the

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina to fight same as all the other volunteers."

19             MS. BIERSAY:

20        Q.   And the image that is on your screen, Mr. Stoparic, do you

21     recognise that man?

22        A.   This is Mr. Milan Martic.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we'd move for admission of 65 ter

24     5990.2.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 4751

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object because there is no nexus between

 2     the statement of Mr. Martic and witness evidence.  And for the purpose of

 3     recognition, video still is enough.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Our position is that the witness has spoken about

 6     Arkan Tigers when in Djeletovci in 1993.  And here we have Milan Martic,

 7     a man whom he's met, who he recognises, who is speaking about the

 8     connection between Goran Hadzic and Arkan.  So we believe it's directly

 9     relevant to the topics covered in his statement.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  But there was no nexus between evidence of this

11     witness and the -- the statement about relations between Goran Hadzic and

12     Milan Martic from this video.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection sustained.

15             Ms. Biersay, you'll have to try to get this one in through

16     another witness.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  I understand, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you spent 1991 to 1997 in the various armed forces

19     throughout the former Yugoslavia.  How does Vukovar stand out in your

20     total war experience?

21        A.   Well, it's no secret.  This was the first serious experience.

22     Tovarnik was my first action, but it doesn't carry such weight.  Vukovar

23     was worst.  When I went to Bosnia and the local commanders would learn

24     that I was a veteran of the Vukovar theatre, they would always treat me

25     with respect.  Vukovar was worst.  Even in Kosovo while NATO was bombing,

Page 4752

 1     it wasn't so bad as in Vukovar.  Or perhaps it's just my impression.

 2        Q.   At this time, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter number 5977, the

 3     2003 statement, as well as 5976, which is the addendum.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would object because this

 6     statement is incomplete because --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which one, the first one?

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  First one.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  5977.  Because the witness gave additions to his

11     statement on 10 December 2003, and he gave many corrections and

12     clarifications of this particular statement in approximately more than 20

13     paragraphs.

14             So I see it is -- it was not addressed by the Prosecution.  And I

15     have only -- it is in our tab, Defence tab 4, I only have a redacted

16     version of these additions, and I don't know whether the witness signed

17     these additions or not but ...

18             MS. BIERSAY:  The first question regarding corrections and

19     additions, the witness addressed all additions -- all corrections in

20     the -- which is 65 ter number 5976, they were tendered together in the

21     Stanisic and Simatovic case without tendering the -- the material that

22     Mr. Zivanovic is discussing, which was not signed by the witness as our

23     record indicates, and he has made his fresh corrections to the -- the

24     statement here in this courtroom.

25             Now, are there topics that were addressed in either -- in

Page 4753

 1     subsequent statements?  Yes.  But are we seeking to elicit those

 2     additional bits of information?  No, we're not.  And so we think, as far

 3     as the accuracy of his statement, it is it now accurate as he has

 4     described it to the Trial Chamber with what he has described in this

 5     courtroom and with the addendum.  And that's how they also proceeded in

 6     the Stanisic and Simatovic case.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The rest seems to be material eventually for

 8     cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I'll use it.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement under 65 ter number

12     5977 shall be assigned Exhibit P1733.

13             And the addendum with the 65 ter number 5976 shall be assigned

14     Exhibit P1734.

15             Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  And that concludes my direct examination,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

19             Mr. Zivanovic, when you -- when you use that other statement or

20     those corrections, I would remind you of our practice not to admit other

21     statements.  So if you use it, you'll read it into the record.  So -- the

22     questions you ask will comprise what is -- whatever is in -- in those --

23     in those corrections, and we'll get the answers from the witness.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I'll comply with your orders.  Thank you.


Page 4754

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Stoparic.  My name is

 3     Zoran Zivanovic.  I am the Defence counsel of Goran Hadzic in this trial.

 4             I will start with what we spoke about just now.  I have a

 5     Prosecution document dated 10 December 2003 entitled annex to your

 6     statement of your -- of the 21st to 24th December -- or November 2002.

 7     It's document number 1D322.

 8             I only have the English version.  I don't know if it was

 9     translated.  But let me ask you if you remember that in December 2003,

10     you spoke to representatives of the OTP about your statement that you

11     gave from the 21st to the 24th of November, which you also spoke about

12     and had an opportunity to read it.

13             Do you remember that you spoke to them; and did you then clarify

14     or correct some things in your statement?

15        A.   I don't really remember each and every conversation, but if you

16     scroll down and if I see the names of the investigators, I'm sure I'll

17     remember.  I mean, I do remember but I would remember more easily if

18     could I see the names of the investigators.

19        Q.   The names are mentioned here are Gerry Sexton and Dorian Barag.

20     Do you remember this interview?  I'm not going to ask you about each and

21     every paragraph.  I'll limit myself to some things that are interesting

22     to us and concern your statement.

23             First of all, I'm interested in the correction to paragraph 4.

24     I'll read it out to you in English and you will then hear:

25             [In English] "I don't know exactly when the TO SBWS office in Sid

Page 4755

 1     was opened, but I'm sure it was after May 1991 and the events in

 2     Borovo Selo."

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  [Microphone not activated] I'm having a problem

 4     with my microphone, I think ...

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Probably my fault again, Ms. Biersay.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  This one seems to be working.

 7             I -- I rise just to say that I have a B/C/S version, I believe,

 8     of this document, which I'd like to have the record reflect is an

 9     internal memorandum which is why it was redacted because it was not a

10     witness statement reviewed by the witness but meant for internal

11     purposes.

12             I'm happy to give this to either Mr. Zivanovic or to the witness,

13     if it would assist either one of them, as it is in B/C/S.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, it will be very helpful, indeed.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  So I think perhaps for the witness, it may be best.

16             Now I think it is, as it is in B/C/S, I -- I think that's ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 4?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   You want me to explain what I meant by this?

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Yes.  Or, in other words, since it differs from

22     paragraph 4 in your statement because I believe you said there that the

23     office was opened in May 1991.

24             Now you said that it was actually after the events in May, so it

25     may have been another month.  That's what I mean.

Page 4756

 1        A.   Yes, I can do that.  I learned of the existence of that office

 2     after May.  I don't know the exact date, but I am convinced that I only

 3     learned of it after May.  It may have been in June.

 4        Q.   You see in paragraph 6 of your statement, you explained precisely

 5     what you've just discussed, not in the document you were just given but

 6     in paragraph 6 of your statement.  That's P5977.

 7             You explained here that they asked you to produce your military

 8     service book and if you happened to have a war-time assignment written in

 9     there, you would not have been accepted as a volunteer.

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Can you tell me on what basis do you know that you would not be

12     eligible as a volunteer in that case.  Did they tell you that?

13        A.   I came to that office.  I hadn't taken with me my military

14     service book, only my ID, and the man turned me back and said that I

15     should bring my military service book.  And he told me that the

16     Yugoslav People's Army doesn't know when they would call up -- whether

17     they would call me up into the reserve.  They had their system of

18     war-time assignments.  They could call me up at any time if I had a

19     war-time assignment.  However, I didn't have one.  And then the man said

20     if the army did not assign you in advance as a reserve, then we can

21     accept you.

22        Q.   One more thing from your experience and the experience from other

23     men you knew, was it a requirement to be accepted as a volunteer to have

24     done your military service?

25        A.   In the TO of SBWS, I'll explain to you what the rules were.

Page 4757

 1             They did their job very professionally.  They wanted you to

 2     produce your military service book and they complied with all the

 3     military regulations of the JNA.  Later on, things changed.  Among the

 4     Seselj's volunteers in Bosnia, there were people who had never served in

 5     the army, et cetera.  However, in this office where this man Filipovic

 6     worked, he wanted to be sure that you didn't have a war-time assignment

 7     because if you had one then the army could call you up at any time as a

 8     reservist.  I was accepted because I did not have a war-time assignment.

 9        Q.   When you say that later on they started inducting everyone

10     including people who did not -- who never served in the army, et cetera,

11     that was later in 1992, right, in Bosnia?

12        A.   Yes, that did not happen in the district.  In the district there

13     was no more war after Vukovar.  These things happened later where there

14     was absolutely no control.  In the district it was according to the

15     rules.  I had to produce my military service book.

16        Q.   Now would you please look at your statement, paragraph 7.  This

17     same statement, paragraph 7, where it says that your status as a

18     volunteer lasted for one week.  And after that, you got a military

19     call-up paper from the JNA.  You said you were required to report to the

20     1st Guards Brigade.  However, yesterday you corrected it and said it was

21     the Kraljevo Brigade not the Guards Brigade.

22        A.   I did not correct that.  You want me to answer?

23        Q.   Yes.  Just wait for the interpretation.

24        A.   I'm talking about that first week or perhaps ten days.  I

25     focussed on the one week, the first week when I was a member of the TO of

Page 4758

 1     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and the main commander for us was

 2     the Kraljevo Brigade.  After that, we went to Lipovaca, where from we

 3     would go later on to Vukovar.  That's when Mr. Grahovac came.  And he

 4     said that this Kraljevo Brigade would no longer be there.  Instead a

 5     Guards Brigade from Belgrade will be coming.  And those who want to go on

 6     in the war would be under the Guards Brigade from Belgrade.  He listed us

 7     all, and he said that we would get official summons at our home address.

 8     And after the war, I went home and, indeed, they delivered this summons

 9     by courier service.  And later on, we were under the Guards Brigade.  And

10     officially we would have been reservists of the Guards Brigade.

11        Q.   Let's clarify one thing.  When you say that your status as

12     volunteer lasted approximately one week, which period would that be?  Do

13     you count from the moment when you reported to the Territorial Defence in

14     Sid and the week after, or some other period?

15        A.   Well, I counted from the day when we departed for Tovarnik and

16     until Djeletovci.  Now, within the first three days when we got equipment

17     and weapons, it took us two or three days to form platoons, to clean our

18     weapons, so I was there in this base in -- in Tovarnik.  I believe one

19     week passed between that and Tovarnik.

20        Q.   You were there in that period when the action took place in

21     Tovarnik.  And during those days, your unit was subordinated to the

22     Kraljevo Brigade?

23        A.   I believe it was a motorised brigade.  It probably had a number,

24     but I don't remember it.

25             Yes, we were there.  We were subordinated to them.  Their

Page 4759

 1     officers were in command.

 2        Q.   That's, in fact, a JNA unit.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I'm asking you this because on page 6 there is an omission,

 5     because you said not Kraljevo Brigade.  You said Kraljevska Brigada and

 6     it was interpreted as "Royal Brigade."

 7             Just tell me one more thing.  Before you departed for Vukovar,

 8     you received an official military call-up from the JNA to report to that

 9     Guards Brigade; correct?

10        A.   I don't remember the date.  I was already in Vukovar.  But when I

11     returned from Vukovar, from the war, when I returned home, my brother

12     showed me that paper.  However, at Lipovaca I had already signed some

13     paper and Grahovac required us to sign it.  He said you are not cannon

14     fodder.  You have certain legal rights as volunteers.  You know that

15     volunteers and reservists have the same status.  The only difference is

16     that reservists were called up, and volunteers volunteered.  But legally

17     we had the same rights.  The same status.

18        Q.   And that's in fact what you said in this addendum to your

19     statement.  We can go back to 1D322.  That's what you were just given in

20     the B/C/S version.  It says:

21             "The call-up papers from the JNA were delivered by courier

22     service."

23             Can you read this paragraph?

24        A.   Which paragraph?

25        Q.   7.

Page 4760

 1        A.   I see it says here by post.

 2        Q.   Yes.  And in the other paper it says by courier service.

 3        A.   It's usually the courier service and Sid has one.  They deal with

 4     these things because the post does not always work perfectly.

 5        Q.   And you say here that, on this basis, you were on an equal

 6     footing with all the other reservists of the JNA.

 7        A.   Yes.  And I received my salary for the service in Vukovar from

 8     the JNA.

 9        Q.   I believe you named the person from whom you received your

10     salary.  You said you were given it at the barracks of the 1st Guards

11     Brigade, but I think in para 23, in the last paragraph, you gave the name

12     of the officer from whom you received your salary.  It's the last

13     paragraph because paragraph 23 has two paragraphs?

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Ms. Biersay.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             I rise because I'm getting a bit lost in which document we're

17     talking about.  When you say in -- you said in paragraph --

18     Mr. Zivanovic, paragraph 23, in which -- which document are we?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  1D322.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  So it's now the memorandum.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  I would be assisted if perhaps when you're

23     referring to it to say memorandum just to --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

25             MS. BIERSAY:  -- just to keep it -- it would just assist the

Page 4761

 1     record and me trying to find which section you're discussing.  Thank you.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Is that correct?  Do you remember that name?

 4        A.   Yes, Captain Zirojevic.  I asked for him.  He came out and he

 5     sent me to a warrant officer whose name I don't know.  The warrant

 6     officer gave me a certificate and he paid out my salary on the basis of

 7     that certificate.

 8        Q.   In your statement, you stated that when you volunteered you were

 9     issued the old-type JNA uniform.  Was that uniform significantly

10     different from the uniforms of reservists?

11        A.   How shall I explain this?  The old uniform is the sturdy, very

12     warm uniform.  The reservists' uniforms were the same but made of a

13     different fabric.  But they were basically the same.  The camouflage

14     uniforms were not common at that time, although I later received at

15     Velepromet a camouflage uniform consisting of the top and the bottoms,

16     and the hat.

17        Q.   I'm asking about the time when you volunteered.  Was it -- was

18     the difference between those two uniforms very -- very obvious so that

19     you could easily tell reservists from soldiers?

20        A.   No.  We were, if I can say, tongue and cheek, we were all like

21     Easter eggs.  Reservists usually had their uniforms ready and they kept

22     them at home.

23        Q.   You mentioned in your statement, and you mentioned today in your

24     testimony, two names.  The first one was Slobodan Grahovac.  You were

25     shown a document -- maybe I'll show it again to you later.

Page 4762

 1             I'd like to know, because I believe you said he had some

 2     connection to the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Do

 3     you know this first-hand or did you hear it from someone?

 4        A.   The signature on that document is Filipovic's, not Grahovac.  I

 5     remember when I came to the office of that man, Filipovic, I believe his

 6     name was Dusan, I used to see him on TV even back in Sid, he was

 7     something in that government.  I don't know what exactly.  But maybe I'm

 8     mistaken.  I believe that he was some sort of minister or something.  Or

 9     he -- he became a minister later, unless I'm very confused.

10        Q.   That's precisely why I'm asking.  It's in paragraph 19 of your

11     statement.  Although you amended it later in the memorandum.  I'm asking

12     you this because our information is that Slobodan Grahovac played

13     absolutely no part in the government of SBWS at the time when it was a

14     district or at the time when it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

15     That's the reason why I'm asking, because in paragraph 19 of the

16     memorandum, the document you're looking at, you said that he was

17     presented to you as the minister of defence of SAO Krajina.

18             My question is:  Who presented him or who introduced him to you

19     as the minister of defence, if you remember.

20        A.   I remember his face very clearly.  He was wearing the same

21     uniform, those same fatigues, and that's the first time in my life that I

22     saw a Heckler gun.  There were two instructors there, one from

23     Backa Palanka and the other one was nicknamed Djani, I don't

24     know from where, and they introduced him to us.  I know that after the

25     war, this Grahovac worked in the customs service or maybe in the state

Page 4763

 1     security, and there was a report that he was hurt or killed in a traffic

 2     accident.  But from that time, I remember that he was presented to us as

 3     a minister.  Even the defence minister.  But that is not necessarily

 4     correct.

 5        Q.   Let us now look at P1727.  That is the document which bears

 6     Filipovic's signature.  I see that he signed this on behalf of the chief.

 7     I don't know whether he was the chief or somebody else was the chief

 8     because we have different information about him too.

 9             If we could just see the top of the B/C/S version.  I'm

10     interested in this date, 18 October 1991.  There is a stamp on the

11     left-hand side.  What does this mean?  What is written in the centre,

12     OP and then STO.  We know that STO is the Territorial Defence Staff.  But

13     what is OP?

14        A.   Operative maybe ... I don't know, really.

15        Q.   If you don't know, that's all right.  I'm asking you because we

16     know about the so-called TO Staff of Vukovar from all the documents we

17     have seen, and we know of another staff, or other headquarters in

18     Vukovar.  You mentioned Vujovic and Vujanovic and we have information

19     about the fact that the previous commander was Dusan Jaksic.  So I wanted

20     to see if we could clarify this matter, whether these were two distinct

21     staffs or maybe the same staff in two places at various times or maybe

22     one subordinated to the other?

23        A.   Well, there had to be a staff.  In Vukovar it's a town staff, and

24     certainly there must have been one for the whole district, but I really

25     don't know how they were connected and whether they co-operated at all.

Page 4764

 1        Q.   I would like to see the bottom of the document because there's a

 2     name there.  Can you read this name?

 3        A.   Marko Ceprnja.  I heard of that man.

 4        Q.   Do you know that before the war he also worked at the Vukovar TO?

 5        A.   No, I don't know that.  But that name did pop up.  I mean, there,

 6     on the front line.  I believe that he even supplied some stuff to us,

 7     such as cigarettes.

 8        Q.   When did you first meet Milan Lancuzanin?

 9        A.   When we were lined up on that occasion.  When I came from

10     Lipovaca.  I first met him and that man Ubi [as interpreted] Paripovic.

11     Although, I know that he was in Tovarnik too, but I don't remember him

12     from there.

13        Q.   And that was in Vukovar.  So I met him in Vukovar?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   I see that later he called you often because he fell ill and

16     asked you for assistance.  So it is my impression that you grew quite

17     close, that you were good mates.

18        A.   Yes -- actually, I built his house.

19        Q.   Was that after the war?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, after the war in this district of ours.  Later on,

21     there was also the war in Kosovo.  But it was around 2000 or so.

22        Q.   But do you know that up until the war, he lived in Vukovar?

23        A.   Yes, of course.  I also know his father and his brother.  I was

24     in his house in Vukovar.  It's in Leva Supoderica.  I also went to his

25     father's place who lived by Novi Sad.  I forget exactly where.  And I

Page 4765

 1     was -- I was at his brother's house and know his wife and her family.

 2        Q.   You probably know that when the war broke out, he and his family

 3     fled Vukovar and went to Serbia.

 4        A.   Yes.  He was returning to Vukovar the same way as I went there,

 5     through Tovarnik.

 6        Q.   You mean he was returning as a volunteer; right?

 7        A.   Yes, a volunteer or TO.  Anyway, a member of the armed forces.

 8     What exactly he was, I don't know.

 9        Q.   You said that you know that he was also at Tovarnik involved in

10     the activities around Tovarnik, although you didn't meet him then.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you know when he returned to Vukovar, when arrived there?

13        A.   I found him in Vukovar when I arrived there, so I wouldn't know.

14     He may have told me, but I didn't -- I don't remember.  Anyway, he came

15     there before me.

16        Q.   I'm asking you this because according to the information that I

17     have, on this very day indicated here, the 18th of October, he arrived

18     Vukovar.

19        A.   That's possible.  Or, rather, I'm not really convinced ...

20     maybe -- maybe earlier.

21        Q.   At any rate, you don't know the exact date.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   You said that you had been appointed commander of the

24     1st Platoon in this Leva Supoderica Unit.  And you said that on the 20th

25     of November, you were the duty officer at headquarters.  I would like to

Page 4766

 1     know whether these duty shifts were a common thing in the Leva Supoderica

 2     unit?

 3        A.   Yes, there would always be duty shifts.  When the commander was

 4     there, he had certain people who dealt with some matters.  I was a

 5     platoon commander and I was more in charge of hands-on stuff.  There were

 6     also the communications there, and the staffs, so if Radic or Zirojevic

 7     came, somebody had to be there to call in the commander if he is out on

 8     the front line.  You understand?  It's normal procedure anywhere.

 9        Q.   And according to the rules that was an officer, so -- or not a

10     private, such as probably a company commander?

11        A.   Yes.  And, as a rule, they were locals, from Vukovar.  The --

12     they were familiar with the terrain.  I was duty officer only once

13     because nobody else was there.

14        Q.   Does that mean that before that you were never duty officer?

15        A.   Yes.  I did stay at the staff sometimes overnight, when we knew

16     that there was no activity planned, but it was not a usual thing to have

17     me there.  I remember this instance because it took so long.

18        Q.   I'm interested in something else.  We'll get back to this

19     specific instance.  I would like to know what you, as duty officer, but

20     I'm not referring specifically to the day when the Ovcara events

21     happened, but more generally, in principle, what were your duties?  What

22     were you supposed to do?

23        A.   Not allow everybody to enter.  When somebody comes with some

24     request, asking for cigarettes or ammunition or something, then you go to

25     the warehouse.  You issue ammunition or Zoljas.  And if there's an

Page 4767

 1     incident, such as a row, you take care of it.  If somebody drinks

 2     alcohol, these were the things you would deal with.  And the usual staff

 3     affairs, so you don't decide about anything.  You don't take any

 4     decisions.  And when there are people you don't know, you have to ask who

 5     they are and where they were going.  It's something like a sentry.

 6        Q.   You also had means of communication, such as a Motorola and an

 7     induction telephone.

 8        A.   Yes.  And a power generator and a battery-powered TV set because

 9     the houses we were staying at didn't have electricity.

10        Q.   This induction telephone, is that a land-line telephone?

11        A.   Yes.  You have to lay a phone line from point A to point B, and

12     then -- that's how it works.  But it's the worst communications line

13     because these wires can break.

14        Q.   But it's the safest.

15        A.   No.  Actually, according to military doctrine, courier

16     communication is safest.  But these were -- this was the hardware that

17     the JNA had at the time.

18        Q.   Let me ask you about this:  When you were duty officer, did you

19     have communication with other units, such as JNA units or other units in

20     that sector?

21        A.   There were two documents.  One was a list of codes.  So when you

22     set up a communication, then you use these code-names and people would

23     understand.  So it wasn't a very long list of codes, but there were --

24     there was a number of codes anyway.  It was line communication.

25        Q.   Let me ask you one more thing:  The duty officer, did he make

Page 4768

 1     notes of the events during his duty shift?

 2        A.   No.  You would brief the commander orally if there was an

 3     incident.  If there was none, nothing.

 4             You must understand that we didn't become officers by attending

 5     Military Academy.  We didn't have much paperwork.  We were more or less

 6     self-proclaimed.  The army did accept my rank eventually, but when I

 7     served in the army, I didn't attend the reserve officers' school.

 8        Q.   And the duty shifts, how long were they roughly?

 9        A.   Your shift was either a day-time shift or a night-time shift.

10     But, on that day Kameni had gone are all the mainly officers and just

11     said I should stay on duty.  Although there were the squad commanders

12     there, so I don't know why they didn't do the job.

13        Q.   So, roughly speaking, a duty shift would last up to 12 hours;

14     right?

15        A.   A regular duty shift, yes.

16        Q.   I'm asking because many things can happen in 12 hours, so it is

17     probably more convenient to write things down because it's easy to forget

18     things so you wouldn't be able to brief the commander.

19        A.   When somebody called, you make a note of it.  And the line wasn't

20     used for private conversations anyway.  So if anybody called and the

21     commander was out, and I must tell you that Kameni was not

22     self-proclaimed guy.  He was a brave man.  And we didn't use Motorolas

23     often in some periods because anybody can listen in.  In that case, you

24     go to the other person in person.  But I didn't use these means of

25     communication so often because I was a combat man.

Page 4769

 1        Q.   During these duty shifts was there communication with other

 2     units, such as these assault groups of the JNA?

 3        A.   Well, you know, I don't know everything about being a duty

 4     officer.  It happened by chance that I was duty officer on that

 5     unfortunate day, and I didn't know about Ovcara.  I only learned about it

 6     later.

 7             There was this man by the name of Slobodan Katic.  Whenever he

 8     was present he was at the communications centre, so he was best informed

 9     about who was doing what and where.

10        Q.   Just one more question.  What was Katic's job in your unit?

11        A.   He was a kind of officer but he didn't have any subordinates.  He

12     didn't have a platoon.  He considered himself assistant commander.  He

13     was a radical from Belgrade.  He was very active in the Radical Party,

14     and, in that sense, he was in contact with them.  When I joined the unit,

15     I had no idea it had anything to do with a political party.  Only later

16     did they start distributing applications to join the party, and Katic was

17     something like a political figure, and he was Kameni's friend, whether

18     he -- they went back a long time or not, I don't know.  But when they

19     were there, they socialised a lot.

20        Q.   Let me now go into your clarifications about Tovarnik.  You said

21     that you saw many corpses at Tovarnik on the street or in the gardens and

22     you supposed that they were Croats because they were not buried.  Maybe

23     due to the fighting, even if those dead bodies were Serbian bodies, they

24     couldn't be buried because of the fighting?

25        A.   I knew the one woman was Serbian.  There may have been some

Page 4770

 1     Serbian dead bodies among the ones I saw, but the ones on the tarmac

 2     certainly were not Serbian bodies.  The military police guarded them.

 3     And I saw two murders with my own eyes, and I know that they weren't

 4     Serbs.  One man's name was Mate, I think.  He was killed by

 5     Zeljko Krnjajic.  And his wife was killed by Predrag.  One of them is now

 6     being tried for Lovas and the other is at large.  They killed this

 7     married couple personally.

 8        Q.   That's in your statement.

 9        A.   That's how it happened.

10        Q.   You also say that the military police was guarding a couple of

11     Croatian bodies near the petrol station.  Why do you believe that those

12     were Croat bodies?

13        A.   That was the second day.  All the Serbs who had fled had returned

14     by that time.  And if those bodies were from a Serb family, the families

15     would have picked them up.  We also didn't find anyone in Ilaca.

16     Everybody had fled.  We didn't find anybody.  We did not have to fight

17     apart in the artillery preparation before we went in.  That's why I

18     believe that they were Croats.  Or perhaps other non-Serbs.  Because if

19     it was somebody whose family was around, they would have been collected.

20        Q.   I'm asking you because the other bodies were not guarded by the

21     military police.  Did it perhaps occur to you that the military police

22     was guarding Serb bodies until they are collected?

23        A.   I understand what you're driving at.  It would have been a

24     possibility but for the fact that on the first day when I was at the same

25     place, there were no bodies, and the next day there was not a single

Page 4771

 1     Croat soldier in that area who would have killed those Serbs.  They may

 2     have been victims of a general crime.  It was complete chaos, anarchy.

 3        Q.   Was it perhaps your impression that the military police was

 4     guarding bodies in order to secure a -- an on-site investigation?

 5        A.   That would have been possible.  That would have been the most

 6     realistic option.

 7        Q.   Just one more question before the break:  Do you know what

 8     Zeljko Krnjajic did before the war?

 9        A.   Before the war?  I don't know.  After the war, he was a police

10     officer in Sid.  He even served in Kosovo as a policeman.  But before the

11     war, I don't know.  I had contacts with him and talked with him because

12     he also bought a house in the Sid municipality, in Asica village, and I

13     went there because we knew each other from the time when he was my

14     commander.  But he never mentioned what he did before the war.  I believe

15     he comes originally from Lovas.

16        Q.   Did you hear that he was a policeman even before the war?

17        A.   No.  You see, after that brief war in Tovarnik, he became the

18     commander of the police because the police force was formed and the

19     civilian administration immediately after.  And if he had, indeed, been a

20     policeman before the war and graduated from the police academy, now I

21     understand why he was named police commander.

22             But one thing is sure:  He was in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May,

23     in his own words.

24        Q.   My information is exactly the opposite.  He may have said that

25     but ...

Page 4772

 1        A.   Maybe.  That's what he told us.  Because he had a camouflage

 2     uniform on when we were in Sid and were receiving weapons he and Vojkapic

 3     were the only ones who had experience and the only experience could have

 4     been Borovo Selo, and said that he was in Borovo Selo himself unless he

 5     was in the Foreign Legion.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think it is time for a break.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It is, indeed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             We will take the break until 12.45, Mr. Stoparic.  The court

 9     usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] When you were talking about the Territorial

18     Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, do you know who, in fact,

19     was the commander of that Territorial Defence at the time when you were

20     in Vukovar?

21        A.   I don't know.  But I heard later that it was General Badza.

22        Q.   When you say "General Badza," do you mean Radovan Stojicic,

23     nicknamed Badza?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you know roughly where he was working, what was he -- his

Page 4773

 1     other job at the time, from which structures he came?

 2        A.   He was part of the special units of the state security of the

 3     Republic of Serbia, the so-called SAJ.  I don't know his entire career,

 4     but, for a while, he was there too.  I don't know the rest.  I first

 5     heard of the man when there was a strike in some mine and he went to deal

 6     with it with his special unit.

 7        Q.   When you were speaking about Slobodan Grahovac, you said that, to

 8     the best of your knowledge, he was also a member of the police.  Did you

 9     mean the police of the Republic of Serbia?

10        A.   After the war in Vukovar, yes, that's what I heard.  Or perhaps I

11     heard it on radio or television.  I'm not sure whether it was the police

12     or the state security.  I'm a bit confused.  Maybe he was in the customs

13     service, also.  I don't know all the places where he worked afterwards.

14        Q.   Let's just be clear:  Are you talking about Serbia or the

15     Republic of the Serbian Krajina where he worked in the police or the

16     state security or the customs service?

17        A.   Serbia was still part of the federal state, along with

18     Montenegro.  That's what I mean.

19        Q.   So you don't mean Krajina?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   I'm asking you because we have information --

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [In English] I refer to the page 613, lines 16 to

23     19, there Grahovac -- [Interpretation] that Grahovac was the Chief of

24     Staff in the Territorial Defence.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  What remained in my

Page 4774

 1     head was that he was some minister.  But sometimes you get confused about

 2     these things.  You take a lie for the truth, sometimes you are given

 3     misinformation.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Maybe he was falsely presented to you.  I'm just saying we don't

 6     have information that he was a minister in the government.

 7        A.   He did not introduce himself as such.  Other people said he was a

 8     minister.

 9        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, you said that before coming into the courtroom, you

10     had read this statement you have before you.  That's 5977, with the

11     corrigendum 5976.  And you said that to the best of your knowledge it's

12     all true and accurate when you were asked so by the Prosecutor.  I'd like

13     to draw your attention to paragraph 36 in that statement.  You will see

14     soon the B/C/S version on the screen too.

15             What we see here is the same thing you said in your testimony,

16     that you personally had not been at Ovcara but you know certain details

17     about the killings committed there and that, on that day, Kameni, Ceca,

18     Kinez, and Djo went to the war staff of the Serbian Radical Party in

19     Belgrade.  However, you say here in your statement:

20             "They returned around noon."

21             And today, you said they returned that evening when it was

22     already dark.  Since you said yesterday you had read your statement and

23     you stood by it and your testimony today was different on this point, I'd

24     like to know if you can explain this.

25        A.   These words "around noon" don't have to be correct.  It could

Page 4775

 1     have been 1.00 p.m.  I'm not sure whether it was 12.00 or 1.00 p.m.  But

 2     I spoke to Kameni on the Motorola.

 3        Q.   In other words, around 12.00 or 1.00 p.m., you spoke to him.

 4     Does it mean you talked to him in person or not?

 5        A.   No, I just spoke to him.  He asked me, in fact, he said, I know

 6     you've been there a long time, but stay on some longer.  And they

 7     returned into the evening.

 8        Q.   You see, in your statement, in the sentence after that, it says:

 9             "I was the duty officer.  When Kameni and the others came back

10     from Belgrade I noticed that they were very anxious ..."

11             So I want to know if you did not see them around noon when they

12     returned, how were you able to notice that they were anxious?

13        A.   You see, I spoke to him around noon, and when he returned that

14     evening, in my mind, he had returned from Belgrade.

15        Q.   Are you trying to say that they were anxious at that time?  Did

16     they all come back together, the four of them, or just Kameni?

17        A.   All of them.  Well, I was able to see that they were nervous,

18     worried.  He asked very briskly that we establish our manning strength,

19     and we had been in combat together.  I was able to see that he was

20     anxious.

21        Q.   You see, you say in the next sentence:

22             "Kameni said they were going to find Miroljub."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So when did he go to find Miroljub?  That evening or that day at

25     noon?

Page 4776

 1        A.   I'm trying to quote Kameni, to quote what he said when I received

 2     my task to establish the manning strength.  He also said, You don't have

 3     to go find Miroljub yourself.  I'll go.

 4             From the moment when we spoke on the Motorola until they

 5     returned, I don't know what, in the meantime, was going on with Miroljub.

 6     Later on, it turned out that Miroljub was with them.  I don't know why he

 7     had to go find Miroljub.  He was furious with that Miroljub.

 8        Q.   Well, try to explain to me why did he say, Don't go look for

 9     Miroljub.  Why would you look for Miroljub in the first place?  At least

10     that's what it says in the record.

11        A.   He didn't say that to me.  He said they would go to find

12     Miroljub.

13        Q.   Did he say why?

14        A.   He probably did, but I had already left to establish the manning

15     strength.  They stayed behind.  And when I came back, there were many

16     more people there.  I asked him, What's going on?  What's all the

17     commotion about?  And he said, Something is going on that shouldn't be

18     happening.  He didn't say, Something happened.  He said, Something is

19     going on that shouldn't be happening.  And the next day, it was clear.

20        Q.   I believe it's very important what you say here.  In the next

21     sentence already it says when they left for Ovcara to look for Miroljub,

22     they remained there for two or two and a half hours, and when they

23     returned to the command, they ordered you to go to the unit urgently and

24     find out where everyone is.  From your statement, it follows that they

25     went to Ovcara and stayed there for two or two and a half hours,

Page 4777

 1     returned, and it was then that Kameni gave you the order to find out

 2     where the troops from your unit were?

 3        A.   Kameni told me himself that they had been at Ovcara for a while.

 4     And that's certainly true.  There's no need for him to lie.  After

 5     Ovcara, they came to headquarters.  That's true as well.  Whether or not

 6     they went to see Miroljub again, I don't know.  They said they would.

 7             I may have mixed things up when I made my statement.  I --

 8     sometimes we -- I spoke from memory, and sometimes I said what we agreed

 9     I would say at Zemun in case we were questioned about Ovcara.

10        Q.   In a word, what we read in paragraph 36 is partly untrue.

11        A.   Well, I explained.  When I spoke I amalgamated both versions into

12     one.  That's why there's a problem, not only with you but also with the

13     Prosecutor.  Things had to be clarified for the Prosecution too.

14        Q.   You're aware that you're giving evidence under oath.  Did Kameni

15     go to find Miroljub, as you say in your statement, around noon when he

16     arrived and stayed for two or two and a half hours and gave you that

17     order, or did he set out to find Miroljub in the evening hours, and

18     Vujovic too?

19        A.   When I saw him in the evening, he said that he would go to find

20     Miroljub.  And before that, he was there as well.  I don't know whether

21     he actually went there at night.  And, frankly speaking, I asked him that

22     after the war, and he answered, yes, that is -- yes, I saw things but I

23     didn't kill anyone, and I left.

24        Q.   I find that understandable if you went there around noon or

25     within those two and a half hours he stayed, nothing was happening of

Page 4778

 1     that kind.  But when he went there in the evening, then the situation was

 2     quite different.  That's why I'm asking you whether he went there around

 3     noon, the way it says in your statement, or if he went there in the

 4     evening -- actually, he arrived in the evening and after that went there?

 5        A.   The real truth is that we spoke around noon or 1.00 and that he

 6     came in in the evening and -- well, the evening.  I don't know.  It may

 7     have been around 6.00 or maybe even 5.00 because it was winter time.  And

 8     he ordered me to establish the manning strength and that he would go to

 9     find Miroljub.  Whether he actually did, I don't know.  He says he

10     didn't.

11             When he went there, I don't know.  Perhaps it was a scheme to

12     confuse me.  It was suspicious to me when he ordered me to establish the

13     manning strength because that was the first time ever since we arrived

14     to -- at Vukovar.

15        Q.   In other words, this part of your statement where you say that

16     Kameni arrived at noon with these four -- or with these three members of

17     your unit is not true?

18        A.   I said that he arrived in Vukovar around noon because we spoke by

19     means of our communication lines, and I saw him in person in the evening.

20     That's to the best of my recollection.  They also confused me with

21     their -- with those meetings we had.  What should we say, and, you know,

22     that stuff, unfortunately.  So I got confused.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 5979.

24        Q.   Do you recognise this text?

25        A.   This is my handwriting.  Yes, I recognise it.

Page 4779

 1        Q.   Tell us when this was drafted?  There's no date here.

 2        A.   Well, I think in 2004.  Or 2005 maybe.  I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   Here in this statement, you speak about the meeting you had with

 4     Kameni and three other former members of that unit.  Tell me how long

 5     after that meeting did you draft this statement?  Can you remember that?

 6        A.   Over a year, I think.  Well, no, not really.  Maybe even two

 7     years.

 8        Q.   Did anybody ask you to write this statement?

 9        A.   An investigator, I think.  I can give you the name, if necessary.

10     Paolo Pastore.

11        Q.   Let us now take a closer look at this statement.  Let's start

12     with paragraph 1.

13             It says that before the investigation in Serbia, you met

14     Lancuzanin and that he invited you to meet Ceca and Kinez as well.  Tell

15     me, how come people knew that there would be an investigation in Serbia

16     on the -- about this event?  Because 12 years or who knows how much had

17     elapsed.

18        A.   I don't know but Kameni knew.  He must have learned that from

19     someone from security service.  When we went to those interviews, I

20     couldn't suggest them what to do because I wasn't there with them.  But

21     later on, people were brought in some six months or so later because I

22     know that Kinez came to Sid after he had been interviewed in Belgrade on

23     which occasion he had to take a lie detector test.

24        Q.   How many times did you meet to discuss these things?

25        A.   Well, we went to Mitrovica to Ceca's place and then went to Ruma

Page 4780

 1     to Kinez's place, and then we also spoke in the railway station bar.  And

 2     after some time we went to Belgrade, all of us together, and met Djo.

 3     There was also an attorney and some other people I don't know.  And there

 4     was a man who was at the TO at the time.  His nickname was Djani.

 5     Actually, it was either he or a relative of his, because that Djani

 6     lived abroad for a while.

 7             And then Kinez came to see us once, because I told you that I was

 8     one of the -- the people who built Kameni's house and we were just

 9     finishing a part of the work, I remember.  He had already been brought in

10     by the police and had to take the lie detector test, and then he would

11     tell us how he faired.  Later Kameni also was summoned.  In Sid, there

12     were inspectors that came for him.  At the time, Kameni also was

13     interviewed by ICTY investigators.

14        Q.   Kameni was interviewed by ICTY investigators.  Is that what he

15     told you or did he hear that from the -- from Tribunal investigators?

16        A.   No, no.  No.  I actually escorted him when he was going there,

17     and he took an attorney with him because he was a suspect.  And when he

18     returned from Belgrade, I think that he even told me that the interview

19     had been videotaped.  Nobody told me here.  He told me.

20        Q.   So you met once when Kameni said that there would be an

21     investigation.  Then you met once in Belgrade when that Djani was

22     present, and that you met once when Kinez took the lie detector test, and

23     once later, when Kameni went to be interviewed by ICTY investigators.

24     That was four times?

25        A.   No, no.  I met Kameni daily.  Almost daily.

Page 4781

 1        Q.   I'm referring to these four situations, not your daily meetings

 2     with Kameni.

 3             Did you speak about the events at Ovcara on each of these four

 4     occasions?  Did you consult as to what you should say once the

 5     investigation begins?

 6        A.   When Kameni went to be interviewed by the investigators, we

 7     didn't discuss that.  But, otherwise, yes, we spoke about Ovcara.  We

 8     spoke about Sljivancanin.  We even called him from the cafe.  There was a

 9     special system in place.  You -- you had -- we called him and wait for

10     three rings and only then would he answer the phone.  He hadn't been

11     arrested yet.  We all liked the man; Sljivancanin I mean.  The

12     Prosecutors once told me that they wanted me to testify in his trial but

13     I refused.  However, they didn't insist.  There was no way of making me.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They would have been

15     able to make me testify.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   When you spoke about Ovcara, why was it necessary to communicate

18     with Sljivancanin?

19        A.   I didn't speak to him.  They spoke to him on the phone.  But when

20     they did, they only said hello.  They didn't speak about serious matters

21     because everybody was scared to death of being wire-tapped.

22        Q.   Do you know why they wanted to set up contact with him rather

23     than other officers?

24        A.   They, especially Ceca and Kameni, liked him and socialised with

25     him as long as it was possible, before he was indicted, that is.  They

Page 4782

 1     had a good relationship with him.  I don't think that they socialised

 2     because of Ovcara.  They just socialised.

 3        Q.   And when -- why did they stop?

 4        A.   Well, because of prison.  Mr. Sljivancanin was here and they were

 5     also arrested.  Some were convicted, some were quitted.  Kameni was first

 6     convicted to 20 years and that was raised to five.  Kinez got 20 years.

 7     I don't remember what happened to Ceca.  The older man from my platoon, I

 8     showed him in that picture, he also got 20 year, Soskic.  It was all for

 9     Ovcara.  Maybe they socialise now.  Now both Kameni and Sljivancanin are

10     free men.

11        Q.   Do you know why you had this coded system wherein you would ring

12     three times and only then would he answer?  Why was that necessary?

13        A.   Ceca knew that.  Kameni did not have that number.  Because they

14     were looking for Mr. Sljivancanin.  It's not only our services that were

15     after him.  There were also foreign services after him.  We were

16     especially afraid of manhunts and bounty hunters.  Everything exists in

17     the Balkans, and ultimately he was arrested.  He was in hiding basically.

18        Q.   So it was all before he was arrested.

19        A.   Yes.  Not long before, because things were already under way

20     then.  There were arrests and wartime -- war crimes prosecutions.

21        Q.   You say that the OTP asked you to be a witness in the

22     Sljivancanin case and you refused.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you tell us why?

25        A.   At that time, I was preparing for some other case, perhaps

Page 4783

 1     Seselj, I'm not sure, when I was contacted by the Prosecutor working on

 2     Sljivancanin case.  I refused, and I already explained.  I told you that

 3     they had ways to make me testify.  The Trial Chamber could issue a

 4     summons, but they didn't do that.  They didn't ask the Trial Chamber to

 5     issue a binding order.  And, anyway, I did not refuse impolitely.  I just

 6     said that if I had a choice, I would not like to take part in that trial.

 7        Q.   I know that you testified before this Tribunal in a number of

 8     cases.

 9        A.   And you must note that it was always in public.  I insisted on

10     that.

11        Q.   That's true.  Why were you reluctant to testify in the

12     Sljivancanin case, in particular, unlike all the other cases where you

13     did testify?

14        A.   It's a bit personal, but I have more respect for that man than

15     for all the others.  I believe that he, too, is a casualty of what

16     happened.  That's my opinion.  Although he was found guilty by this

17     Court, but it's my right to still have my opinion.  He is more humane, a

18     better human being, although I don't know him that closely.  We are not

19     friends.  It's just my personal opinion about him as a person.

20             I told you, if they really wanted to have me testify, you know

21     they had ways.  A Judge issues a binding order and then I would have had

22     to appear or they would have put me in prison for several months for

23     contempt of court.  Although, in his case, I would have chosen that over

24     testifying against him.

25        Q.   In other words, you would have rather been convicted for contempt

Page 4784

 1     of court than testifying against Sljivancanin?

 2        A.   Yes.  And I would still have testified against all the others.

 3     And I would always testify in public session.  Except -- except in the

 4     case of rape victims, everybody should testify in public, even insiders

 5     because in the end we'll all be judged.

 6        Q.   Did you understand the proposal to testify in Sljivancanin as the

 7     Prosecution attempt to convict him and have you help them convict him?

 8        A.   That's -- that was not my thinking.  I just did not want to be a

 9     part of it.  I did not want to be a part of anything that had to do with

10     him.  I did not want my name linked or mentioned anywhere in the

11     Judgement.  Although, as I say, they have ways.  They had ways to make me

12     testify.  But I simply see that man differently.  Although I did not get

13     to know him very well, but I did see him on the front line.  Or perhaps I

14     was influenced by being friends with Kameni, or his being friends with

15     Kameni.  In any case, that's how it is.

16        Q.   But didn't it occur to you that by testifying in that case,

17     considering that you have a high opinion of Veselin Sljivancanin, you

18     would have helped his Defence, and you would have perhaps assisted the

19     Court in getting a better understanding of him as a person and the events

20     that occurred there.

21        A.   Yes.  But they did not contact me.  From what I understand, both

22     parties are able to contact witnesses; right?

23        Q.   You mean to say the Defence team did not contact you?

24        A.   I believe not.

25        Q.   But you, as a witness, you could have said a lot of good things

Page 4785

 1     about him even as a Prosecution witness because the Prosecution was not

 2     forcing you to say anything against Sljivancanin.

 3        A.   No.  They do not impose anything to you.  They listen to what you

 4     have to say.  There is no coaching, no instruction, just as with the

 5     Defence teams.  But I just did not want to appear in that trial as

 6     Prosecution witness.  I probably would have been reluctant to appear as a

 7     Defence witness too.  I just didn't want my name in that Judgement.  And

 8     this changing of hats is also not me.  It's -- the best thing, I believe,

 9     is to be neutral.  And I did not consider myself as an expert or an

10     important witness who would have -- who would have been able to help him

11     or prove his guilt.

12             I may have said something -- some things in my evidence in a

13     confused way because that's how I lived them.

14        Q.   Did you testify in the Vukovar trial in Belgrade?

15        A.   No.  You mean when Kameni was the accused?  No.

16        Q.   Were you called as a witness there?

17        A.   You know, by that time I had left Serbia.  It's no secret that I

18     was in the witness and victims unit in the relocation programme.  Maybe I

19     was difficult to reach.  Maybe they were not able to find me.  I

20     testified in Belgrade twice but that had nothing to do with the SBWS.  It

21     had to do with Kosovo and with the Trnovo incident in Sarajevo.  I

22     testified without any protection measures.  We did not have a system of

23     protection measures anyway, at that time.  Once I testified from here by

24     videolink but it all concerned the Skorpions.

25        Q.   Did you perhaps testify in the Lovas case?

Page 4786

 1        A.   No.  I was in Lovas before the war.  People who live in Sid in

 2     that part of the Krajina know that there was a shop there where the boss

 3     was a man called Dule, and on very good terms we bought household

 4     appliances there on loan, and during the war I went only once.  We came

 5     by car to the entrance to Lovas and went to back.  I did not go to Lovas

 6     during the war.

 7        Q.   You see on page 1 of your statement towards the bottom.  It's the

 8     second page in English.  You say that Milan Lancuzanin on that occasion

 9     when you met up at the railway station in Ruma, the conversation started

10     when he said that Ovcara will be prosecuted in Serbia and that

11     General Vasiljevic was set up at a trial in The Hague to blame that crime

12     on the Territorial Defence of Vukovar and a certain number of volunteers

13     from Leva Supoderica only to prove Sljivancanin's non-involvement in that

14     crime.

15        A.   Those were not my words.  I was just trying to convey what he

16     said.

17        Q.   Could you make this a bit clearer.  How did you understand what

18     Kameni said on that occasion, that General Vasiljevic was put up to it

19     at -- at the trial in The Hague?

20        A.   Of course I know who General Vasiljevic is.  He was the chief of

21     the counter-intelligence service, and many of those involved in the war

22     react to every mention of him with distaste and even revulsion.  Don't

23     ask me why.  I watched his testimony in the Milosevic trial.  I really

24     wanted to see it, so I watched on the Internet.  You know, there are

25     conspiracy theories everywhere.  I don't have a particular opinion.  It

Page 4787

 1     could have been the way he described it.  Perhaps not.  I'm just saying

 2     what Kameni told us.  All of us there are absolutely convinced that

 3     Sljivancanin is not guilty for what happened there.  And despite his

 4     conviction, I have the right to think so.

 5        Q.   I'm not questioning your opinion.  It's just that from your own

 6     words here, it follows that Vasiljevic was put up at the trial in

 7     The Hague to blame this crime on the TO Vukovar and the volunteers for

 8     the single purpose of proving Sljivancanin's non-involvement in Ovcara.

 9             When you say somebody was put up to do something, that implies

10     that the person did not testify truthfully but gave false evidence in

11     order to blame some things on one group of people rather than others.

12        A.   My opinion is - my opinion was - that Serbia and Yugoslavia were

13     prepared to do anything to prove that they were not involved, or their

14     members were not involved.  And to prove, instead, that the Territorial

15     Defence and others were guilty, in fact.  I believe that is so.  And

16     Vasiljevic is the spy master.  A spy remains a spy.  But that's how I

17     remember Kameni's words at that meeting.  To me, it also sounded like a

18     conspiracy theory.

19        Q.   Further below, you say that he even said - we're still talking

20     about Kameni - that the trial in Serbia will follow that theory.  This is

21     some kind of forecast how the trial in the Ovcara case in Serbia will

22     proceed.  Did you follow that trial?

23        A.   Yes, in the media.  Yes, I followed the reporting because many

24     people I knew were involved.  And what is said about the line the trial

25     would take, it's -- it means that marginal people would be convicted,

Page 4788

 1     perpetrators, as if nobody in the top echelons knew anything.  And that's

 2     why Kameni was afraid, because he considered himself a low-level

 3     participant.

 4        Q.   And then he says:

 5             "Namely, if it is proven, which I personally don't doubt would

 6     happen, that the crime was committed by members of the TO and the

 7     volunteers without the knowledge of the JNA, that will deflect all blame

 8     from Sljivancanin.  He said that it was the purpose of the Serbian state

 9     to have anonymous people convicted of that crime rather than officials

10     and officers because if the so-called Vukovar three, Mrksic, Radic, and

11     Sljivancanin, are convicted or characterised as involved in any way, then

12     the state of Serbia would have to recognise its involvement in its -- in

13     that conflict and that would mean paying a huge damages to the Republic

14     of Croatia.  As he explained, our grandchildren will be born indebted to

15     the state of Croatia."

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   When he was saying that, did you have the impression that he

18     received that information from somebody else?

19        A.   I don't know.  He seemed to have some knowledge.  Otherwise, how

20     would he have been able to talk like this?

21             Perhaps I did not use his exact words when I described it because

22     I didn't have a Dictaphone with me, but I tried to the best of my ability

23     to convey what he said.  The gist is there.  And to me it all seemed very

24     personal, very heart-felt, all this talk about war damages.  And, now, in

25     fact, we have a tribunal like that in this international tribunal.

Page 4789

 1        Q.   Could you please explain the following sentence to me, the one in

 2     brackets:

 3             "During my conversations with the inspectors in charge of the

 4     Ovcara case, I got the impression that they know in detail what and how

 5     this crime happened.  I realised this from the questions they were asking

 6     me.  Then they correctly described people I knew and their role in it

 7     all, and they had other crimes in Bosnia for some of these individuals.

 8     Since they could not establish this after so many years, they therefore

 9     must have collected the information immediately following the crime and

10     put it all aside."

11             Is this your comment?

12        A.   After trial in Belgrade, and I still had not seen a single ICTY

13     investigator, a judge accorded me one month of protection, but it so

14     happened that they didn't have a police unit capable of doing that, so

15     some police officers investigating war crimes were assigned to me.  They

16     took me to a hotel, and that's where they spoke to me like this.  This is

17     my account of what they were saying.

18             They know all names, they know all details, some of which I

19     didn't know.  And this is my conclusion from that conversation with these

20     police officers whose task it was to protect me, and eventually they

21     brought me to The Hague on a plane.

22             They were also interested in Ovcara and Djordje Soskic.  They

23     even knew when I went to see Soskic in Krusevac after the war.  They knew

24     even that.  That's why I wrote these words.

25        Q.   On the following page in English, I see that all three put

Page 4790

 1     forward suggestions as to what the story should be like if they come

 2     under investigation of either the Serbian judiciary or the Prosecution of

 3     The Hague Tribunal.

 4             You go on to say that Kinez emphasised that it would be best if

 5     they told the truth but that Ceca did not agree.  Ceca said, Kinez, the

 6     truth is what we now agree it is, and Ceca insisted on avoiding at all

 7     costs any involvement of the JNA by emphatically saying that they only

 8     saw uniforms of the Vukovar TO there."

 9        A.   Yes, that's what Ceca was saying.  Although a JNA uniform didn't

10     mean a thing.  TO members also wore the same uniforms.  Volunteers.

11        Q.   Is that in accordance with what Kameni had said before, that any

12     responsibility of JNA members should be avoided so that there should be

13     no negative consequences for Serbia as regards war damages?

14        A.   Kameni didn't like that scenario, that he is convicted and that

15     Serbia needn't pay anything after that.  But he was convinced it would

16     happen that way.

17        Q.   Tell me now what was the difference between what Kinez had said

18     that, you should all say the truth, and Ceca's position that by no means

19     anyone should speak about the JNA's involvement?

20        A.   Neither Ceca nor Kinez put forward their truth in my presence

21     because, after all, I don't even know what that truth is.  Ceca said a

22     number of times, Well, we needn't involve Stoparic.  He wasn't there with

23     us.  I even thought of leaving, but it would have been silly.  None of

24     them ever said that they killed anyone, this time included.

25        Q.   You said that this thesis about the uniforms of TO Vukovar was

Page 4791

 1     accepted by all three of them.  Do you happen to know if they repeated

 2     that in the trial?

 3        A.   I don't know.  When I went to Mr. Seselj's trial, once he

 4     mentioned that trial.  But the transcripts and all that is something I

 5     cannot access.  Maybe it can be found on some public site, but I never

 6     looked for it.  I do believe that Kameni took this line of defence that

 7     he had indicated then.

 8        Q.   On the following page, you say what the conclusion was, what they

 9     had -- what they agreed on.  Now you're saying that they were at a

10     meeting in the staff or headquarters of the SRS and that Miroljub called

11     them to return to Vukovar urgently.  That they arrived in the afternoon,

12     as you say here, that they sought out Miroljub and found him at Ovcara,

13     that Kameni tried to take one of the prisoners out but Miroljub didn't

14     allow it.  When the killing began, Kameni gave the order to immediately

15     get out of there - I mean the members of your unit - and that Miroljub

16     tried to prevent him, and that this was what they had agreed on that they

17     should say in case they were interrogated.

18             Based on what we read here, what, in fact, is not true?

19        A.   The events at Ovcara, what Miroljub told Kameni, and the rescue

20     of that neighbour, I have no way of knowing if that's true.  It is true

21     that they came from Belgrade and that I spoke to them over the radio or

22     the phone, and that they came in, in the evening.

23             Everything else, apart from these facts, are things I don't know.

24             These are mostly Kameni's words.  Kameni said that everybody

25     should say that.

Page 4792

 1        Q.   On the following page, there is a statement of reasons, and you

 2     mark them with asterisks, and the second asterisk -- at the second

 3     asterisk, you say that this is a -- this is why they came up with this

 4     story.  They say they only found members of the TO at Ovcara, in fact,

 5     they emphasised this:

 6             "This was Ceca's idea and it was composed into the story."

 7             It was put into the story.

 8        A.   Yes, Ceca insisted on this.  I can only make assumptions as to

 9     his reasons.

10        Q.   When you say that this was Ceca's idea, to me it sounds like it

11     doesn't really reflect what in fact happened there?

12        A.   When we're looking at the these photographs, we also saw Ceca.  I

13     recognised him.  He was wearing a JNA uniform.  That may be one of his

14     reasons.  I can only make assumptions.

15             Look at the photograph.  You will see that he was wearing a new

16     camouflage JNA uniform.  Not everybody had such uniforms at the time.

17     Yes, he was the one who insisted that this should be said.

18        Q.   Let's take a look at the next bullet point or asterisk.

19             "Talking about how men were removed from vehicles, they agreed

20     that if anyone should ask what type of vehicle they were, they would say

21     tractors and tractor-trailers without mentioning JNA vehicles."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   That's also what they agreed to say.

24        A.   Yes.  Everything that had to do with the JNA was Ceca's idea.  I

25     don't know why he insisted on this JNA so much.

Page 4793

 1        Q.   You may know - at least to the extent you followed the Vukovar

 2     trial - there was much insistence on tractors and tractor-trailers.

 3        A.   I mostly followed through the media and the media didn't really

 4     cover all the details, so at the trial they were mentioning tractors.

 5        Q.   My question is merely because you said that you followed the

 6     Ovcara trial in Belgrade and probably the Ovcara here in this -- before

 7     this Tribunal, that it was nearly always said that the victims were taken

 8     away on tractor-trailers.  You may have noticed that.

 9        A.   I don't remember.  I had limited means of following the trial in

10     Belgrade, and I'm not sure when I wrote this, when exactly I wrote this.

11     Possibly the -- the trial had already begun.  Or maybe the investigation

12     was under way.  I can't really tell.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stoparic.  I have finished examining you.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have finished with

15     my cross-examination.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, we have no re-direct at this time.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No re-direct.  Okay.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stoparac, this is -- Stoparic, sorry.  This

22     is the end of your testimony before the Tribunal.  We thank you very much

23     for coming to The Hague to assist us.  You're now released as a witness.

24     The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom, and we wish you a

25     safe journey home.

Page 4794

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of May,

 5                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.