1 Tuesday, 2 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Alex Demirdjian,
15 Thomas Laugel, Kathryn Fox.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and Andrew Seaton,
20 intern. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you so much.
22 The witness may be brought in.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Pleas be seated, Dr. Abd El Razek.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to you.
2 THE WITNESS: Good morning to you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I remind you that you are still on your oath.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Then we can proceed.
6 Mr. Demirdjian.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 WITNESS: ADNAN ABD EL RAZEK [Resumed]
9 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Dr. Abd El Razek.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Before I start, I have been requested to ask you if at all
13 possible to speak a little bit closer to the microphone or a little
14 louder because there was a difficulty in transcribing yesterday. And may
15 I also ask you, with respect to the answers to -- to focus as much as
16 possible on the question, and if details are necessary, I will ask you
17 for further description. Is that clear to you?
18 A. Sir, I'm at your disposal.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'd like to go back to an answer you
20 gave us yesterday with respect to your meeting with Mr. Hadzic.
21 First of all, I'd like to start with the people that you say you
22 saw there, and at page 6477 yesterday you mentioned that the people that
23 you saw there at the compound were those that you described as militia.
24 First of all, can you tell us how many of them you saw, roughly?
25 What was your impression of the numbers you saw?
1 A. Along the road from the entry through the building -- within the
2 building I would talk about tens of them, not less than tens or dozens
3 in -- in English.
4 Q. Okay. And yesterday you also told us - and for the record, this
5 is at page 6475 - that when you attended the meeting you were there with
6 Mr. Lubin and his wife and you mentioned also Mr. Hadzic. The record is
7 not entirely clear as to who else was there on the side of the Serbian
8 authorities. You mentioned Mr. Hadzic. Who else was there, if anyone?
9 A. Of course we also had interpreters with us and people I did not
10 recognise, armed people around, and people come in and out almost
11 continuously whispering to Mr. Hadzic or to handle paper or doing
13 Q. And when you say people coming in and out, you said that they
14 were armed people. And in which category or institution would you -- do
15 you think they -- they belonged to?
16 A. Armed people, not police, and not a military. Yesterday we were
17 talk about militia, paramilitary, armed civilians, but with
19 Q. Very well. Now, yesterday you also explained to us at page 6478
20 the response that you received from Mr. Hadzic once you had explained to
21 him what you had seen, and I'd like to go back to certain aspects of this
23 Now -- yes, I have it here in front of me. You explained that --
24 sorry. Let me just get the exact page number here.
25 Yes. First let me go to what you said. You told us here that
1 the meeting lasted about 45 minutes.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And you told -- you said:
4 "We told him our story about what's happening at night on ethnic
5 cleansing, forced expelling people, forced deportation."
6 Now this meeting lasted for 45 minutes. Are you able to give us
7 more details about what you said?
8 A. Our main visit or purpose of the visit is to talk with Mr. Hadzic
9 out of those activities or actions or -- military actions. We had to --
10 we did not accuse him directly, but it was with our tone clear that we
11 thought that he was the responsible. When we were discussed his
12 responsibility, but we discussed and we asked or request his help,
13 assistant, in stopping those activities at night and day. We
14 specifically talked about certain cases, particularly with that family
15 with the horses and other families that in -- in -- in the north that we
16 witnessed the departure. We talked about reports of UNMO in the south.
17 We talked about the whole enterprise of -- of cleaning the area with
18 simple words and with some examples. Our continuous request is that
19 those activities are against agreement, against the Vance Plan, against
20 the UN decision, against the Security Council decision, and against our
21 mission in -- on -- on that reason. We stressed that we are here or
22 there then for peace and helping the people, and we are not there to
23 judge them or to fight with them. We are to seek their help in stopping
24 those activities.
25 Q. Now, you then explained to us that in respect to his response,
1 you said it was strongly -- a very strong response on denying, on saying
2 not my people. Now, what was he denying?
3 A. He was also saying, Please bring me those who accuse me to tell
4 me what I did. I want the people to tell me -- or to testify or to
5 witness or to say anything that I am -- I was involved on those
6 activities. He was in total denial that he was engaged or giving orders
7 or in charge of those activities. He was strongly saying those things.
8 Q. And you -- you say here that you came to a gentleman agreement, a
9 verbal agreement, and it was not very well recorded here in the
10 transcript yesterday. Could you explain to us what was this agreement?
11 A. Yes. Within the talks and with our insistence that we are
12 seeking his help, he said okay. But there people who voluntarily leave,
13 cannot stop them. We said we don't have evidence that they leaving
14 voluntarily. Somehow -- no, I don't remember exactly the point when he
15 suggested or we suggested or both suggested that we, as UN, want to see
16 to it that people really leave voluntarily. And he said, yes, and we are
17 willing and instruct the police and ask my people to show you, to come to
18 you, to -- whenever people want to leave, local people want to leave, our
19 people and the police will come to you with -- to -- to see to it that
20 those people are leaving voluntarily. They also -- later on, they --
21 they -- we saw the forms that they filled. Of course, we could not read
22 the forms and not always we have interpreter to read the forms, but there
23 were forms with people's signature.
24 So the verbal agreement was that whenever civilians from those
25 villages want to leave the area into other areas, mostly through Osijek
1 but in the north to Hungarian areas, they will show us -- or we will be
2 able to verify that they're leaving voluntarily.
3 Q. Now, who was to co-ordinate this with you on the ground?
4 A. The police.
5 Q. And when you mean "the police," --
6 A. Local police. Not army and not armed personnel. The police who
7 is in charge of the -- or theoretically in charge of the order in those
8 places. He will come to us - the civil police, of course - with those
10 Q. Very well. Now, when did this meeting take place?
11 A. I believe some three days -- or three or four days before the
12 20th. I regret to say that I cannot exactly point the date of that
13 meeting, but it was very close to the -- the incidents on the 20th.
14 Either two days or three days before that.
15 Q. And in which part of the day did you meet with Mr. Hadzic?
16 A. Normally, not before the afternoon.
17 Q. Not not before the afternoon?
18 A. No. Not not after the afternoon, sorry. I'm sorry. Normally
19 before the afternoon.
20 Q. Are we saying noon, morning, or ...
21 A. Our meeting with the police and those who take place either
22 between 11.00 to 2.00 or 3.00, maximum. We leave the afternoon, the
23 evening, meeting with the JNA normally.
24 Q. I understand. Now, did there come a time when you met Mr. Hadzic
1 A. Yes, sir. Briefly on the -- morning of the 20th of April.
2 Q. Now, on this occasion, I will ask you to -- to expand and give us
3 the context.
4 A. Well, of course, around 9.00, I believe, some civil police from
5 Vukovar, not the chief, came to say that as we agreed, and you agreed
6 with Mr. Hadzic, and we all agreed, they are same people from our region,
7 it is not mentioned in the name of the village, want to leave voluntarily
8 to Osijek and we want you to come and to verify that they are leaving
9 voluntarily as we agreed. We discussed amongst ourselves and we said,
10 "Okay, we have to go to Mr. Hadzic office to be clear that we are in --
11 in -- in this mission as agreed." Their police person took us to his
12 office around -- I think around 9.30, 10.00, something, in the morning.
13 There was somebody in that office besides Mr. Hadzic. Something with a
14 people defence of Vukovar, something like this, from Vukovar. We asked
15 to, again, verify what -- our mission. The police talk in their language
16 with Mr. Hadzic. They talked amongst themselves. And then we were told
17 that, okay, this is the case. You are going to verify that certain
18 people, villagers from the area of Vukovar, that they are leaving
19 voluntarily. Mr. Hadzic was saying, You -- you will be escorted to meet
20 the chief police in Vukovar, that he will take you to this place.
21 So this briefly. Nothing more sophisticated than this or more
22 political than this. We took the police from Vukovar in our car vehicle.
23 We did not take the interpreter. There was the chauffeur, Mr. Andersson,
24 UN or UNPROFOR civil police, myself, and the police went to Vukovar,
25 briefly picked the chief police of Vukovar, and we were escorted to a
1 village called Marinci. Maybe it's Marincia, Marinci. We call it in
2 Marinci in simple English. I regret if the name is not exactly the --
3 the local name. I always appreciate being -- being considerate with the
4 local language and symbols.
5 We met there with -- Amir called the head of the village of
6 Marinci. We were all squeeze in a small room less than a quarter than
7 this place, one table with seven, eight people, smoking people, and we
8 were supposed to be escorted or to see the list to see the people that
9 want to leave voluntarily. We need to wait for at least two hours in
10 that room doing nothing. Even not talking because the language also
11 barrier, and I said to myself, I kept saying, Hey, what's going on.
12 We're waiting, we're waiting. For two hours. And then somebody came in
13 a rush, yes, let's go. So we were happy to leave that room and to go.
14 But then -- then sadly we came to place where some ten people, I think --
15 if I'm not wrong, six women and four men, old men, I estimate, and then I
16 was younger. For me, the age of 60 looks old. So I thought, you know,
17 the youngest was 60 was old. Today we above 60, so I thought 60 is a
18 young people. Standing, nowhere to sit. Each one holding a small bag or
19 package and look like dead people. If you ask me to describe this,
20 meaning people with no expression, no face.
21 I approach one of them. I ask him, "Are you leaving voluntarily?
22 Are you coming to leave, is what you wish?" He kept silent and then
23 said, "Yes, we want to go to our families in Osijek." After silent,
24 another two -- two three minutes, he said, "No. Yesterday, two or three
25 of my people were missed. I know that if I stay I will be missing too.
1 I want to go." I tried to engage more with him. He could not -- and, of
2 course, the escorting people start roaming around us, you know, seeing if
3 we're talking to those people. While standing there, some pick-ups, not
4 jeeps, not military jeeps, pick-ups were coming and bringing more people.
5 And after a while - and this is -- I'm now talking after a while, then it
6 was, like, ever - a bus came. In the bus, were some people. We
7 loaded -- we loaded -- ten people got into the bus, and we decided to go
8 with them. Not to go with our car. And while the car was moving, stop,
9 we saw a military -- not military, sorry. A uniform -- a civilian with
10 semi-military uniforms getting into the house, and we hear yellings.
11 Andersson was first and then after him, I after him, got into the house
12 to find out that this young man, armed young man with, I think, green
13 beret, green -- green or -- I think the green beret, is pulling out the
14 woman. And she was screaming. And she was -- initially was holding the
15 bed, then the door, then the external door, and he was pulling her and
16 she was trying to hold on with the door. So I jumped in.
17 And then I was naive and did not know how much was dangerous.
18 And I stopped and I stood between her and the armed door -- guy. I said,
19 "You don't touch her." He put his gun into my belly, start pushing me,
20 and then I told him, "If are you a man, shoot. I am UN personnel and you
21 are a criminal, shoot." Then he took the arm down and said, "You are
22 man. Oh." Then I -- I told him you don't touch this woman. He said,
23 "But she has to leave." I said okay. I looked at Andersson. We
24 decided, yes, we take her. Otherwise, if we leave here it is -- is not a
25 favour that we are doing for her. We told her to come. Get to the bus.
1 Give her some water. The gunman did not come with us. [Indiscernible]
2 did the job. We took the bus, we started driving, and then we were
3 stopped by medical ambulance, local ambulance. And two women were
4 unloaded from that ambulance. One of them was handicapped. So we need
5 to go down and to take her to the bus to secure that she is sitting up
6 comfortably as much as possible, and we keep driving.
7 By then, we have a total of 21 people. We didn't see any papers,
8 any signatures. That -- while -- while sitting back on that
9 small waiting place, I approached a police. I told them, "This is not
10 what we agreed upon. Those people are not leaving their own." Then he
11 said, "Listen, this is -- those are my orders. Those are my -- this is
12 -- those are the orders that I received. They have to go." "Who is
13 ordering you?" He hesitated, and then I ask him again and again it was
14 Mr. Hadzic, because we just came from Mr. Hadzic's office, and this is
15 not the agreement.
16 He did not give me an answer. He did not say no. He did not say
17 yes. Just something the commanders are in charge told us to go so we
18 have to go.
19 So while -- by the time we loaded those two women in the bus with
20 21 people, mostly women but some men too, we were escorted to Osijek
21 passage or bridge or minefield crossing area --
22 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, before you get Osijek, I do have a couple of
23 clarifications to ask you. We will come back to Osijek in a moment.
24 Now you earlier you told us about how you met with Mr. Hadzic
25 that morning. In your meetings, in the two meetings you've described so
1 far, how were you presented to each other?
2 A. A very good question. We present ourselves. Nobody presented us
3 with Hadzic. We never had any -- any definition or introduction with
4 Mr. Hadzic. Everybody was assumed, including ourselves, that this is
5 Mr. -- big Mr. Hadzic, the one who's in charge. The one who is the big
6 boss in that area. We never asked him to define his job. He never did.
7 And I'm not sure that he -- then we would have any clear answer, but this
8 is speculation. We did not.
9 Q. Perhaps to clarify to the Trial Chamber: Whenever you arrived to
10 the compound, how did you reach his office?
11 A. By escorting. No -- no access. I had -- we never had access,
12 free access just to go knock on his door and come in or his security in
13 the hall. It has to be co-ordinated. He has no know in advance that we
14 are coming and we will meet at the gate people who will escort us to
15 the -- to his office.
16 Q. And when you get to --
17 A. This is twice I did no -- not -- for me. I mean, the two times
18 that I went there.
19 Q. And when you get to the gate, before you are escorted how do you
20 announce your presence?
21 A. First of all, we do not go to the gate without -- without our --
22 the local police or -- we were escorted to that place with that local
23 police that indicated to us that orders is coming from Hadzic and you
24 talk to Hadzic and we ask him to co-ordinate so we come to that place.
25 Q. Mm-hm.
1 A. UNPROFOR was known as UNPROFOR. By then, the winery compound
2 that is so-called, they knew the civil police. They knew our UNPROFOR
3 military. We were, they knew, civilians but part of the team. We did
4 not feel that we need to -- to introduce our orders, with the JNA the
5 same thing. We go in there, it was clear we are who are -- who were
6 there, I mean, this is the people, the UN. Whether you call it UNPROFOR
7 or otherwise, but people of the UN who is in charge of that area.
8 Q. Okay. And you mentioned a couple of individuals. First you
9 mention the some kind of a chief of national defence.
10 A. Of Vukovar.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Do you recall his name?
14 A. I have it in my lists. If I permit, I can -- I think I can -- I
15 don't -- I have it --
16 Q. In your notebook?
17 A. I think. If I'm permitted, I think that I can look at this
18 [indiscernible] --
19 Q. Okay. Just a second. Before we do that, do you also recall the
20 name of the police chief of Vukovar who was with?
21 A. One of them is Drazic and the other one I -- I remember Drazic
22 one of them and then the mayor or the head of the village. I also have
23 his name on my list. I regret I cannot really pull it from my sleeping
24 brain this morning. And ... but it is in the list, if I am permitted I
25 can open.
1 Q. Rather than the list that you've prepared I think it is also in
2 your notebook. Would that be --
3 A. It's a note. This is not list. It's a note, but is a -- I had
4 two notes written. I had, first of all, the office things that I use to
5 write their names, telephone meeting. I had in the evening writing in
6 arabic my memoire that never was published, regrettably.
7 And then I -- when I first was testifying in New York in 1995, I
8 had a long testimony. It was mostly on Bosnia-Herzegovina but also on
9 Erdut and this. And then I re -- I looked at the whole thing and
10 re-wrote the whole thing to myself. That -- the whole incidents,
11 particularly this incidents I had [indiscernible]. Those are notes that
12 I wrote to myself, including some of them on the book, or in the --
13 whatever office. Poor office booklet.
14 Q. Now the booklet that you have in relation to your time in Croatia
15 or in Erdut, these are handwritten notes in which language?
16 A. English.
17 Q. In English.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may the witness be permitted to,
19 and we have it on our 65 ter list, to look at one of the pages of his
20 notebook. And I don't know if there's a preference for us to show it on
21 the screen or for the witness to simply look at his notebook to refresh
22 his memory with these two names.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
24 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, we will be using this notebook
25 extensively during the cross-examination. Just for the record, I do
1 want -- it's an important document. Just for the record, I just want to
2 indicate that we're not pleased that we didn't have a translation of this
3 document given its importance because we don't. There's no B/C/S
4 translation. And that does make it very difficult to do our work on the
5 Defence side.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Your Honours, it's just for the -- the
8 page that I wish to use from the notebook has the names that the witness
9 would like to refresh his memory with. It's --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's okay.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The document is 65 ter 3110. And we'll need to
12 go to page 25, please.
13 I apologise. This is not the right page. It's the next page,
14 please. The next page. Can we zoom in a little bit.
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
17 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, do you recognise these notes?
18 A. Okay. The [indiscernible] US office, the secretary people of
19 defence of Vukovar. Lazic is a civil police Vukovar. And Bentic, the
20 head of the the village.
21 Q. Just to be clear, the first name is? It's not recorded on the
23 A. Vujovic, V-u-j, it's there in Serbo-Croatian, o-v-i-c.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Vujovic.
1 Q. Vujovic. I see. So --
2 A. And the one Dragan Lazic and Milan Bentic.
3 Q. And Milan Bentic --
4 A. Head of the village. He was sitting in that room that receiving
6 Q. And when you say head of the village, that's which?
7 A. That's the -- the village Marinci.
8 Q. Very well. You can -- we can put away these notes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly pause between
10 questions and answers. Thank you.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise.
12 Q. Very well. Now we got a point where you were mentioning Osijek.
13 Can you explain to use what happened there.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly pause between
15 questions and answers. Thank you.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise.
17 Q. Very well. Now we got to the point where you were mentioning
18 Osijek. Can you explain to us what happened there?
19 A. Before we leave the [indiscernible] I -- before we getting
20 to that -- to the -- can I respond? I have to add something that I think
21 that should be significant because this later on we discuss it with the
22 general of JNA.
23 Once we receive the -- the ambulance and the procedures in, then
24 we have --
25 Q. Just a second. I believe there may be a confusion. Just a
1 second, Mr. Abd El Razek.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, I think there is as
3 misunderstanding. When we looked at your notes, the name of the head of
4 the village of Marinci is Milan -- Milan --
5 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers] [Microphone not activated]
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Papic Ba [phoen]. But if you look
7 at the transcript you said Amir something and the name was not recorded.
8 So what is it, at the end of the day?
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
10 Q. Did you get the translation?
11 A. Yeah. What is this thing? I can read it again.
12 Q. Perhaps if I can help, what was recorded -- what the --
13 Judge Mindua is asking you is that earlier the name Amir was recorded and
14 this was --
15 A. I never said Amir. There is no such a thing as Amir --
16 Q. So is --
17 A. Amir is a Bosnian name. It's not Croatian name.
18 Q. So this was not a word that you pronounced earlier?
19 A. Not a Amir. Mayor. Oh, mayor of -- I said "mayor" or head of
20 the village.
21 Q. Mayor?
22 A. Mayor. No, he was not a mayor because not -- it is not
23 municipality, the mayor. I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. I wanted to
25 the transcript to be corrected, page 7, line 25. Could you please read
1 this over again. Page 7, line 25 of the transcript.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
3 Q. Yes. Let me read it to him because he cannot see --
4 JUDGE MINDUA: Yes, please, go ahead.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
6 Q. Just to give you the first few sentences before I --
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. You said I regret the name is -- into a local name. I always
9 appreciate being considerate with local language and symbols.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And then you said we met with Amir called the head of the village
12 of Marinci. So it's not Amir?
13 A. No. It's a mayor. The mayor.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: Thank you very much.
15 THE WITNESS: Excuse me for messing that pronunciation. Is it --
16 well, some people is the mayor, in -- or mayor, but as a -- the -- the
17 English -- English is mayor. The English American is mayor. Is -- is --
18 I'm sorry. Not -- is not Amir. Not name.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Dr. Abd El Razek. May I ask
21 you to return to your question [sic]. You were specifying something in
22 relation to the ambulance and the procedures.
23 A. Yeah, after we received the ambulance and -- and -- went there
24 and -- okay, you have to -- sorry.
25 I failed to mention that we saw a -- a JNA tank roaming around
1 that area between the village and the road to Osijek. After we picked
2 the two -- actually, today I would think maybe the ambulance was
3 associated also with the tank but the tank was roaming around that area.
4 Soldiers were sitting on top of the tank smoking, laughing, and they
5 waving to us, hey. It was clear also marked the JNA mark -- army tank,
6 and we were extremely surprised to see that, and then later on we
7 confront the general with this phenomenon. So we proceeded to the Osijek
8 crossing. This is an open area where you have a small bridge and
9 continues with the water stream, not deep.
10 Approaching the bridge, mine lands in the open, very shiny,
11 very -- and in the sun they -- they would. And this is where the UNMOs,
12 our UNMOs, UN Military Observers, will co-ordinate with the Serbian
13 forces to remove them when we had permission to go in or go out. We stop
14 there, our bus, and then I saw other two or three buses coming with
15 people. I told the -- the guards, the people there, the police that was
16 there, and the armed personnel, armed -- ah, the militia, that we need,
17 before we are crossing, to consult with our headquarter. It's only 40,
18 45 minutes, both ways. Please watch for us. We'll go to our headquarter
19 and to see how we can co-ordinate the crossing.
20 We arrived firstly to the headquarter. I immediately informed
21 the general, the Belgian sector commander. We wasted no time. We took
22 the car back. By the time we arrived, the buses were gone. Who ordered
23 the buses, I don't directly -- of course, the police and the militia,
24 Serbian militia, is there pushing the bus, and they did not want their
25 drivers to drive the buses, so we have the -- in -- in the police, Dalj
1 police, Columbians, UN civil police, Columbians, who volunteered to drive
2 the bus, the buses. They took the buses. And we arrived. Here we have
3 not only as the police, the Serbian police. We have the general standing
4 there in that small. We approached the general. He first denied
5 anything to do with this. I told him, I saw your tank, and the tank is
6 there. I can show you the tank. He said he will use the gate, took only
7 five, seven minutes. My general, sector commander could not take it
8 anymore. He yelled at -- at the JNA with even harsh words, accusing him
9 of being lying, deceiting, and dishonest. And he left immediately. I
10 could not leave him alone to leave. I know that he was in really serious
11 situations. I took -- I -- I took the car with him. We came to the
12 militia, again, check post. He run through the gate, not stop, broke the
13 gate, and -- and we flew to -- to our headquarter. All the people around
14 us, we were shaking. We were really shaking. And to find out that --
15 that the total buses and others that evening, that afternoon, it was late
16 afternoon, early evening. We still have light in -- an hour or
17 something. It was becoming darker. Four hundred people. We never seen
18 people signing that they're leaving Potocari. We saw the vans go and
19 bringing people pushing them in the bus. We saw that woman that I
20 stupidly was voluntarily want to be killed by this in order to protect
21 her. And we saw the whole enterprise where people crying, panicking, old
22 people, and pushed through the boat.
23 Q. Now two small questions to clarify what you told us already. In
24 Marinci itself, who from your organisation or from the UN was with you?
25 A. Mr. Andersson, civil police, he is the deputy chief of civil
1 police on the sector. The chauffeur, our chauffeur, driver, local
2 driver, that spoke English. We have Sedan, black sedan. I don't
3 remember his -- his car. And then the police from Vukovar. The head of
4 the village. And all kind of people were not defined.
5 Q. Very well. You just mentioned a black sedan. Is that how you
6 were transported?
7 A. No, this is our car. Our -- normally this is our -- we --
8 wherever we go, within the sectors we rent cars, even in Belgrade we
9 rented. And then later on when we were more organised and established,
10 we have our own vehicles with UN flag, with UN signals, with colours,
11 blue, white, et cetera. But initially we rented cars. And chauffeurs,
12 of course, cars with drivers.
13 Q. Now, following these events, was the -- was the incident that you
14 witnessed in Marinci reported?
15 A. More than reported. The incident on -- on Marinci got us in
16 trouble. Because too many things showing that we were engaged in this
17 deportation. The drivers, the Columbian drivers to the buses. We
18 escorted the bus with Andersson with the uniforms, police. We went to --
19 to see those people. Then immediately --
20 Q. Doctor, if I may sorry to interrupt you for a second. My
21 question was -- was this reported within your -- your own chain of
23 A. You cannot miss it. This was immediately we had -- get to the
24 headquarter, I was requested to write something. Lubin to add. Lubin
25 was not witnessing but he came to that -- to that -- that place we
1 gathered later on. The general, of course, wrote his own sitrep. We
2 immediately sent to Thornberry the report, and I wrote my own report.
3 Not only to be communicated to them but also for myself. I was so shaky
4 that I need to -- to get out for myself.
5 Q. You just mentioned that this was reported to Thornberry. To your
6 knowledge, what was Thornberry doing with the reports that he was
7 receiving from your sector?
8 A. The chain of command in civil affair was Mr. Goulding in
9 New York. He was the under-secretary for peacekeeping affairs. Then it
10 was later on restructured structured. He, of course, would report to
11 Secretary-General, then Mr. Boutros-Ghali. Thornberry will report to --
12 to -- to Mr. Goulding, and the Secretary-General. And if it is needed,
13 this would be reported to Security Council by the Secretary-General, of
15 Q. And what was the relationship that Mr. Thornberry had with the
16 authorities while he was in Belgrade?
17 A. The local authority of Belgrade. Mr. Thornberry was the overall
18 co-ordinator of the civil affairs in -- in the former Yugoslavia but
19 earlier it was on the PAs in -- in -- in Croatia. Later on, of course,
20 on August, I think, that the Security Council added to -- to refer to
21 Bosnia issues. So he became overall civil affairs co-ordinator in the
22 former Yugoslavia. That type of thing. He would go to the authorities,
23 co-ordinate with the authorities, mostly civil affairs, including supply
24 and move of the UNHCR, and that it -- and their -- their support, then
25 they cross the road. They normally like to be independent, but for their
1 protecting -- protection, they were referring or coming to us to
2 co-ordinate for them.
3 I know that he -- in, while in Zagreb, he met with Milosevic at
4 least twice. I never been with him. I'm too small potato to be taken to
5 this place. I know that he met with political leader in -- in Belgrade.
6 Normally beside co-ordinating, chatting, talking about that -- the
7 future, not all the leadership in Belgrade were involved in the ethnic
8 cleansing. And not every Serb was involved in ethnic cleansing. We have
9 to be clear of this. I met very fine people in Belgrade and in -- in --
10 in the ground who were against those -- those -- those activities.
11 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, if I may show you very briefly two documents.
12 The first one I'd like you to look at is Exhibit P1387.1351 at tab 18.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Now this is a cover page. You see that it is sent from
15 Thornberry to Lubin on 20th of April. The subject relates to Dalj
16 expulsions. I'd like to take you to the next page.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And you see here that the letter of the 20th of April is
19 addressed to dear President --
20 A. A bit more --
21 Q. -- Jovic --
22 A. A bit more. Okay.
23 Q. And you see the topic here is [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 Q. Okay. Just as I complete. Before we look at the content, can we
1 go to the next page, just to see who signs this document.
2 A. Cedric Thornberry.
3 Q. And it is addressed here to Dr. Borisav Jovic, president of the
4 state committee for co-operation with the United Nations --
5 A. In Belgrade.
6 Q. Okay. So let's go back to page 2?
7 A. 1.
8 Q. Well, actually -- well, in this -- for the file it's the second
9 page, yes.
10 A. All right.
11 Q. Now you see in the first paragraph that Cedric Thornberry is
12 writing here:
13 "I have to draw your attention to the continuance of practices of
14 coercion, intimidation, destruction of property ... and finally mass
15 forcible expulsions," et cetera.
16 Now, at the time were you familiar with the fact that Thornberry
17 was reporting about these matters to the Belgrade authorities?
18 A. Yes, sir. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And while -- while in Belgrade myself, he would take the sitreps
21 that he received this morning every day or every -- then and go with the
22 sitreps to those authorities to discuss them.
23 Q. While you were in Belgrade [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 A. while also in Belgrade. And later on, of course, I was fully
25 aware of -- were all fully aware that Cedric Thornberry or the chief of
1 the civil affairs is taking care of those reports, not only from our
2 sector but from the other sectors.
3 Q. Could you look at this next document. It is Exhibit P1388.1351
4 at tab 19.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. It's coming up in just a minute, please.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can you zoom in to the -- yeah. Thank you. Can
8 we zoom in a little bit more to the top part, perhaps, of the page?
9 THE WITNESS: A bit more. Yeah. Okay.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
11 Q. You can see here on the top it says from J. Lubin to
12 C. Thornberry. "Subject: Expulsion of Civilians from Sector East." Now
13 when you arrived here, did you have an opportunity to review this
14 document? You can take a minute to look at it now, if you wish.
15 A. I think yes. I think yes. I think we did that Sunday, I think?
16 I think so. I'm not -- yeah, I think Sunday.
17 Q. Now you see here in the first paragraph it says:
18 "Today, 20 April, while following up on a request from local
19 authorities to witness and facilitate [sic] a voluntary population
20 movement from the village of Mirance (total of 21 persons) civilian
21 affairs officer Adnan Abd El Razek witnessed various events."
22 Now looking through this document, this telex, it appears, is
23 this a summary of what you witnessed that day?
24 A. I [indiscernible] all this but then I assume this is built on our
1 Q. Now how would this report have been prepared at the time?
2 A. Handwriting. Sent ...
3 Q. So it is --
4 A. And then be re-typed in Belgrade. We had very poor
5 communications system due -- but it's all we had. And I remember that we
6 had -- we would sit in the evening and write. I think that the best
7 handwriting we had among the three us -- of us was the wife of Lubin. He
8 will dictate to her and she would write the report, and we look at this
9 again and we send it.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we scroll down to -- a little bit, please.
11 Q. I want you to look at item number 8 which starts with: "JNA's --"
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- "attitude." Could you look at this and tell us --
14 A. [Indiscernible]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Would the speakers kindly not overlap and allow
16 for the interpretation. Thank you.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
18 Q. Are you able to read that paragraph 8 or shall we zoom a little
19 bit more?
20 A. No, I'm okay. Okay. Let me -- and the interpreters want us to
21 not overlap. Yeah, okay.
22 Q. What can you say with respect to what's written here in relation
23 to the JNA's attitude.
24 A. It was really shocking to see the general there. I never thought
25 that he will be there.
1 Now, they were in charge of the -- crossing the borders. Not the
2 police. Army, JNA. But this did not need -- the general told me himself
3 in order to open the crossing, apparently they knew that the whole thing
4 was orchestrated. I confronted him with the tank that I saw. I told
5 him, "I saw your tank, your soldiers laughing at us." And then I earlier
6 describe how the -- our sector commander was furious and -- and he could
7 not take it, those lies and this.
8 They explain, of course, some of is that because we are
9 approaching darkness, we have to cross. They could not wait for us to
10 come back. It's one of the -- I don't know if it's clear here, but this
11 is in my mind. He said, "Well, we have to move because meanwhile it's
12 dark and after dark they cannot move this because the mines should be in
14 Q. Now if you look at the paragraph just below that, number 9, it
16 "Above demonstrates the indifference we face. In spite of all
17 the pledged co-operation, nothing is done, and the agreement in
18 Sector East is an illusion."
19 Now who would have written those words?
20 A. Indifference is a diplomatic word. I don't think that it
21 indifference. They were engaged, involved. Orchestrating these things.
22 It cannot be curfew. Cannot be blackout. Cannot be check-points without
23 the authorities. Whom authority will know -- will notice, will
24 participate, will be part of it.
25 You cannot -- you cannot move a tank on those areas and the
1 commanders will not know. You cannot hire those buses. We did not hire
2 the buses as UN. They hired the buses. You cannot hire buses without
3 budget, people paying. You cannot have the chief of police escorting us
4 without his people know. You cannot have a chief police standing with us
5 on that small yard guarding the 11, the 10 people, without the
6 authorities involved. This is diplomatic words. This is something
7 polite or indifference. Not indifference. I disagree.
8 The things I seen with the authorities that I met, they are --
9 they were in charge. They are engaged, involved. They cannot escape
11 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, you explained to us the issue of Marinci and
12 yesterday you told us that you had seen other situations. Were you
13 familiar with the situation in Beli Manastir?
14 A. Yes, sir. I like that place as well, first of all. And I found,
15 first of all, it's comparing with Erdut, in Beli Manastir, there were
16 still a significant Serbian population. Some of them were highly
17 educated, some commercial. We could talk with people, and I had a chance
18 to talk with the people about what's coming.
19 I have to say - and to be clear - there's many of those people
20 were also expelled as Serbian from the Dalmatia area to that areas. I
21 met Serbians who were expelled or ethnic cleansed from the Dalmatia area
22 to [indiscernible]. Those I met -- not all of them, of course. Some of
23 them. They were not supporting the tactics that being used for ethnic
24 cleansing but they were saying, yes, this is happening on both sides.
25 But I also met with the officials, the head of the parliament, this was
1 what I called it, the parliament. The representative of the government.
2 We had two meetings with us with head of the battalion, the Belgian
3 battalion, Jaochim. We had long conversations with them because also
4 from that regions people were expelled. I myself was witnessed two
5 families. If I may describe.
6 Q. Please.
7 A. We had with our -- with our civil police but also we had at one
8 point still personnel of the European -- they had -- the
9 European Commission for -- or commission, I think, for -- for former
10 Yugoslavia, the people of Ambassador Cutileiro were still were in the
11 region. They reported to us, civilians, but they were threatened
12 personally by the locals. They were -- they felt that they are targeted
13 because they represent the European -- then smaller EU. And the Red
14 Cross, we had information that two families from Beli Manastir want to
15 leave to Hungary, borders with Hungary in the north. I was assigned to
16 go and escort them. I came to the bridge. Bridge was manned by
17 militias. Not police. Not an army. Searching me. Questioning me. And
18 I -- we met -- we met the two families. The car would not move. Every
19 time I tried to move the car, the fuel would go down. And then I was
20 told, explained by the chauffeur that he yesterday took it to the
21 mechanic in order to make sure that the car would run, that this is what
22 happen. They get the pipe loose. I ask them why they are leaving. They
23 said, they started with oil businesses. First of all, they blow up our
24 businesses. Then they start shooting at our houses. Then start
25 threatening us with our life. So we had no choice, no work because our
1 business was burned up. We are not safe here. So we -- we decided to
2 leave. And we contacted the Red Cross, and the Red Cross, I waited there
3 for two hours and then the Red Cross came and they told the car that they
4 could not drive and took them away from that place.
5 Our civil police witnessed other incidents that I cannot testify
6 directly that I saw, but I know that they came and report to us that
7 they -- the night before they saw people leaving. By the time the
8 battalion, Belgian Battalion was established, they start chasing them,
9 the battalion, the soldiers, the Belgians, reporting them. Those report
10 I was not in charge on and maybe they are in the sitreps, I have no idea.
11 Q. Very well. If you remember yesterday at one point you mentioned
12 to us that you saw armoured vehicles that were roaming in the area. You
13 told that they were painted in the colours of the police.
14 Could I ask you to take a look at Exhibit P380. It's at tab 28.
15 Now, Dr. Abd El Razek, we're looking at here a document from the
16 JNA dated 27th of April, 1992. So it's a little bit after your
17 departure. And it discusses here, if you can see in the first paragraph,
18 maybe we can zoom in on that very first paragraph.
19 A. Please.
20 Q. Just above the word "order" there's a reference here to we would
21 this -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 Q. Above order, where this paragraph starting with "based."
24 A. Yeah, okay.
25 Q. "Based on our order, strictly confidential, in order to equip the
1 police force of the Krajina SAO and Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and
2 Western Srem with M-60 OTs, armoured personnel carriers ..."
3 Now, I wanted to ask you what type of vehicles did you see while
4 you were there? When you were mentioning the word "tanks" yesterday.
5 A. Armoured vehicles, I know that they are various and -- and the
6 ones that they used they were more bulky. Looked like a tank. But they
7 are -- and I saw one time or twice tanks. I don't know if -- if it is
8 proper I now say I saw one time one of those vehicles coloured with the
9 police colours, the local police colours. The rest of them are coloured.
10 They are camouflaged, like literally. It was not surprising. I
11 was not -- I was not really questioning. Of course, approaching the boat
12 you -- you see more armed vehicles in that region.
13 Q. When you -- I apologise for interrupting. When you say "police
14 colours," what are we talking about? What type of colour are we talking
15 about here?
16 A. If you have photos of the police, Serbian police, is -- is
17 blueish. It's not blue blue. Is very [indiscernible]. I cannot -- if
18 you see the police colours as -- as different from the military colour,
19 you see that it is police. I don't know how to describe --
20 Q. Is there a shade perhaps of blue that you could ...
21 A. Goes to -- not like dark dark blue, something.
22 Q. Very well. We can put the document away. Now you told us
23 yesterday that you left the area of Erdut on the 21st of April and after
24 some time in Zagreb you spent the rest of the year in Sarajevo.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Is it correct to say that --
2 A. Correct, sir.
3 Q. Yes. Is it correct to say that you returned to Zagreb in early
5 A. Again, yes.
6 Q. And how much time roughly did you spend there?
7 A. In Zagreb?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I think around two months.
10 Q. And what was your assignment there?
11 A. Our headquarter, chief command in the civil affairs, the whole
12 entire operation, UNPROFOR operation, moved from Belgrade to Zagreb, and
13 in Zagreb they used to and wanted to have representative of the sectors,
14 civilians and military and civil police. At one point, I was called from
15 Sarajevo to come to Zagreb in order to facilitate the communication
16 with -- with Sarajevo and Kiseljak and all the operation -- our operation
17 in Bosnia. Incidentally, this is why I left the mission because I did
18 not like to be a bureaucrat in headquarter, but this is -- was my mission
19 is to co-ordinate the efforts of the headquarter and the communication of
20 headquarter in Zagreb and the sector commander in -- in -- in -- on the
21 field, Sarajevo and Kiseljak. Kiseljak was the head of the or the -- the
22 centre or the -- the headquarter of -- of -- of the military, of the
23 UNPROFOR military, not -- not -- not Sarajevo. Sarajevo we had small
24 contingency but Sarajevo facilitated all those meeting running between
25 the Presidency and Pale. Pale is where Mr. Karadzic was sitting and
1 Lukovic with General Mladic was sitting, and we were running among those
2 through the team of Zagreb -- of Sarajevo. This is what I did for almost
3 a year and then I moved to Zagreb.
4 Q. Now, in Zagreb what interactions, if any, did you have with the
5 local authorities?
6 A. One time I was taken with Cedric to the Presidency, to
7 Mr. Tudjman. I was just listening, writing notes. Most of the
8 interaction with Zagreb authorities were done by then through the team
9 from Geneva, Ahtisaari team and the Geneva team that's sitting with the
10 parties in Geneva. Cedric Thornberry will communicate with the locals.
11 I must admit that our presence in Zagreb did not mean that we are
12 in Zagreb politically. I mean, this was only a physical place to be used
13 and to launch from within to the sectors. We kept in -- in -- in Zagreb
14 our communications with both the sectors in -- in Croatia and the new
15 mission starting, I think, August, with the Bosnian missions.
16 Q. You just mentioned the sectors. While you were in Zagreb, what
17 was the situation like in Sector West?
18 A. Sector West was not really troublesome. Sector West was a bit
19 milder. Sector West, our -- our -- our representative in Sector West,
20 our -- the military guys was, I think, Brazilians, generally,
21 Argentino -- Brazil -- I think Brazilians, and Geneva person was civil
22 affairs, Sector West.
23 Sector West were trying to do some mediation, some -- I don't
24 know if it's wisely or loosely, but they were trying to open the highway
25 between Zagreb and Belgrade and mediated with the local Serbian
1 authority. And at one point, we were informed that they agreed that they
2 open the highway. We were all excited. But then we waited on the
3 highway. In no time, we had dozens of tractors, trucks, combines,
4 combines are the ones with the weeds, blocking the highway from both
5 sides of the highways by local farmers, Serbian farmers, that they want
6 to block the whole opening. And then we were told that while the local
7 Serbian authority authorise this, the high commander of the Serbian
8 authorities in Croatia were against the operation. So this is why they
9 blocked and definitely the whole thing was blocked.
10 Q. How were you informed about the agreement between the Serbian
11 authorities in Sector West and the Zagreb authorities to open this
12 highway? Who informed you of that?
13 A. Our sector co-ordinator. We have -- like -- like Lubin in
14 Sector East, we have someone in Sector West to co-ordinate civilian
16 Q. And you told us a moment ago that the commander of the Serbian
17 authorities in Croatia were against the whole operation.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you told who specifically?
20 A. Mr. Hadzic was mentioned, but not only Mr. Hadzic.
21 Q. Do you remember who else was mentioned?
22 A. Who is the boss of Mr. Hadzic? Milan ... there's one ... right
23 now, I -- I am failing to remember, but, yes, and it was described to
24 us -- I don't know. It's through -- not the boss of Mr. Hadzic.
25 Q. Very well. Dr. Abd El Razek before we break, I would like to
1 show you a couple of videos. And I would like you to tell us if you
2 recognise anyone in these videos. So we will have to go to Sanction.
3 The first video that I would like you to look at is
4 Exhibit P86.50. We don't need the sound. And it is from the 1 hour-57
5 minutes-and-5-seconds mark.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE WITNESS: It's Mr. Hadzic, younger.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. I've paused for -- for you to tell us that you saw Mr. Hadzic,
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Which of the individuals here is it that you're referring to?
13 A. The second row, facing the first row, and the first one with
15 Q. Okay. Starting from right to left, which one are we looking at?
16 A. Right to left. He's the first on the right, the second row.
17 Q. Very well.
18 A. If I can point here, I can --
19 Q. We have actually prepared a -- a freeze, or a still of this.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to e-court.
21 Q. And perhaps we could help you marking this image.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And display 65 ter 4924.5.
23 Q. Now, the usher will give you a pen. And if you're able to circle
24 the man that you recognised as Mr. Hadzic.
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. And do you recognise anyone else on this image?
2 A. [Indiscernible] It's blurry. I recognise this gentleman but I
3 don't recall his name. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. Next to the circle where you've identified
5 Mr. Hadzic, could you put the number 1.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And could you put the number 2 next to the person that you
8 recognise. You didn't tell us the name, I believe.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this image.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document will be P2297.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
15 And if we go back to Sanction, I would like us to now look at
16 65 ter 4896.3. There is no sound on this video.
17 So from the 24 minutes, 12 second mark. I believe it's 4896.3.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. And you can tell us to pause when you recognise someone.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sorry, this is not it. No, please stop.
22 Sorry. I apologise. It's 4845.1.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
25 Q. When you recognise someone, just tell us to pause.
1 A. Yes, okay. But, you know, can you bring me to the screen?
2 Q. We can't zoom on this one, unfortunately. Can you see it?
3 A. Well, I see Mr. Hadzic in -- and to his left, Mr. Mladic.
4 Q. So at this freeze here at the 16 second mark, could you tell us
5 from -- perhaps we start with the right, the person at the far right. Do
6 you recognise the person at the far right?
7 A. I think that he was in -- in Lukavica, Gvero something,
8 General Gvero.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And then Mladic and Mr. Hadzic. I'm not sure that the one from
11 Pale, from the parliament of Pale.
12 Q. Okay. We can keep playing.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
15 Q. Again, as soon as you recognise someone, you can tell us to
17 A. Yeah. This is from Pale, the one who speaks. Parliament. I --
18 Joseph -- okay. Okay. Far left -- oh, now, again, it is Mr. Hadzic. To
19 his left -- to his left, Mr. Mladic. And Gvero again. General again.
20 He used to replace Mladic when Mladic was away in our negotiations. He
21 also was sitting from time to time in what they call it mixed military
23 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to get the time code. 50 seconds. Okay.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you know why until now we have always been
2 looking at the small format of the clips? And now suddenly we get a full
3 screen which is much better, of course.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I just asked Mr. Laugel if we
5 could enlarge it. I think they're -- I'm sorry. Let me consult with him
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I understand, Your Honours, that in terms of
9 controlling the videos, it is better for Mr. Laugel when we have the
10 smaller version here to pause and play, et cetera, because he has to
11 toggle between screens to be able to control it. However, we can enlarge
12 it whenever necessary.
13 I don't know if this is an issue that had arisen before but --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, no. It's just because -- because I see now
15 that it is possible to have it -- to have it enlarged.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now, you say it is better for your Case Manager.
18 Is it impossible to control if it is enlarged? Because better -- for us,
19 of course, it's better to see it enlarged.
20 THE WITNESS: Of course.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we will try to display it in an
23 enlarged fashion. However, to be sure of what the time code is, we do
24 need to go back to the small -- as you can see on the screen, now we can
25 see the time code. When it is enlarged, we cannot see the time code. So
1 for purposes of the record, we will go back to the smaller version.
2 We'll go immediately back to the larger one to be able to play the rest
3 of the video if that's all right.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: By the way, I don't know -- well, this is a
5 capital sin to say, but I don't mind if the Case Manager gave us this
6 explanation himself rather than through you.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is not a capital punishment. I believe that
8 we could do that. I mean, if you're satisfied for now --
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: For now I'm satisfied.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Thank you. Next time I will give
11 the floor to Mr. Laugel.
12 Okay. We can keep playing and let's please enlarge the clip.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE WITNESS: Oh, Mr. Karadzic.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let's pause here. What's the time code for this
16 one? So that's 1 minute and 1 second.
17 Okay. Let's keep playing.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. Is there anybody else you recognised --
21 A. Is this [indiscernible]? Which is this Nikolai, to the left
22 of --
23 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Let's rewind a little bit, please.
24 A. Not this one. The one with the ... he passed away second year of
25 the war, or third year, or --
1 Q. Keep tell us -- tell us where to stop. We can play again. And
2 tell us where to freeze, when you're ready.
3 A. Okay. Freeze. This is Mr. Karadzic.
4 Q. Okay. So 1 minute, 40. Let's keep moving?
5 A. I'm not sure. This [indiscernible] Nikolai, Professor Nikolai.
6 Q. Very well. We can stop it here. Thank you for that.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this short clip that
8 we've shown.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will P2298, exhibit. Thank
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I notice the time. I may have a
13 couple of minutes after the break, but I should be finished with one or
14 two questions.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: So this is an appropriate time, Mr. Demirdjian.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, please.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Abd El Razek, this is the time for our first
18 break. 30 minutes. We'll be back at 11.00. The court usher will escort
19 you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Please be seated.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, I would like you to look at an image at this
5 moment. It is 65 ter 6248, tab 30.
6 A. All right.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
8 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, do you recognise this aerial image?
9 A. Yes. This is Erdut. And this is the area of the winery to the
10 right. Our headquarters would be up -- can I mark it?
11 Q. Yes. Could you please mark -- let's see if our usher can help
12 you with that.
13 A. Okay. I would say our area is here.
14 Q. Can you put the letter A next to that.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And the area of the winery, could you encircle the compound and
17 mark it with the letter B.
18 A. All right. B.
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we tender this image, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 6248 receives Exhibit P2299. Thank
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
1 Q. And, Dr. Abd El Razek, during your time in Erdut the area that
2 you marked with the letter A, you indicated earlier that this was a
3 military barracks; is that right?
4 A. It looks like military barracks. It's deserted area. Behind
5 this there's ruins, and it is not -- does not look like housing. Looks
6 like barracks to the right, definitely where that Belgian military
7 personnel is staying, looks like a barracks. And next to it, we have a
8 small building with -- we stationed ourselves in one room, which is three
9 by four, maybe, maximum, and some larger room we used as dining-room.
10 Q. Now between the 11th and the 21st of April, while you were in the
11 area, where were you stationed? Where did you sleep? Where did you ...
12 A. We -- further down, if I can mark it, maybe -- yeah. We have --
13 I know that civil police down from the winery, straight down, down the
14 main road, but we -- I was stationed with some of the Belgian military
15 personnel. If you go from south/north, first, second, maybe the third
16 road, somewhere in between that -- that area.
17 Q. I'm sorry, is it still possible to mark on the image?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we bring it back up, please. I apologise.
20 The marked version.
21 THE WITNESS: Oh, the marked version.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
23 Q. Just a second, please.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Maybe if we can enlarge this a bit.
25 Q. Now you said in a previous answer we stationed our -- we had a
1 small building, we stationed ourselves in one room, which is three by
2 four. Is this -- what kind of a building was this?
3 A. This is a straight building. Nothing is like -- like -- nothing
4 [indiscernible] like a hole, a big hole that's -- they -- they -- they
5 divided part of it in an office and then dining-room. The right was like
6 a hangar but this building is -- with -- with stones, not -- not
7 barracks. It looks like a hangar because I climbed over it to take
8 photos of the river.
9 Q. I believe you're, when you're talking about -- sorry. Your
10 answer earlier was when I asked you where did you -- where were you
11 stationed, where did you sleep --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- you said --
14 A. We slept down the -- the road.
15 Q. Are you able to see that?
16 A. Can I mark it?
17 Q. Yes. Yes, with the letter C.
18 A. Don't kill me if it's not correct because something like in this
19 area. Not far from the headquarter. Even -- maybe further down a little
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can this be saved --
23 THE WITNESS: All right.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: -- as a separate exhibit? Okay. Yes, I
25 apologise for this. Can we ...
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this image can override what was
2 already admitted as P2299, if that's what counsel intends to do.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Okay. If that's possible. Instead of having
4 two separate ones just have one admitted exhibit.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So this one will get that exhibit number.
6 What is it?
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: P2299.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, right? Okay. Thank you. Thank you,
9 Madam Registrar.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much.
11 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, thank you for answering my questions.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is all I have, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, in re-direct -- sorry, in cross.
16 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
17 Your Honours.
18 Q. Good morning, Dr. Abd El Razek.
19 A. Good morning, sir.
20 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Mr. Hadzic, and I'll
21 have a few questions.
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Unlike the Prosecution, I'm permitted to put some propositions to
24 you, and on some occasions if you can just answer those propositions yes
25 or no, that might move this process along more quickly.
1 Now, I understand correctly that you met Mr. Hadzic twice?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Were you with Mr. Lubin, James Lubin, on a both occasions?
4 A. No. On the first occasion. The second occasion I am with him
5 without Mr. Lubin. It was with Andersson.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 02789, please, which is Prosecution
7 tab 5.
8 Q. Sir, do you remember back in 2012 that you gave a statement to
9 the Office of the Prosecutor?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And did you answer the questions that were put to you as fully as
12 you possibly could on that occasion?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you answer them correctly --
15 A. I believe so.
16 Q. -- to the best of your ability?
17 A. I -- to the best of my ability.
18 Q. And you were being asked questions, were you not, about
19 Mr. Hadzic; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And is this document on the screen in front of you the front page
22 of that statement?
23 A. This is mine.
24 Q. So that is the front page of your statement that you gave in
1 A. This is my signature.
2 Q. And you also signed it at the end and you affirmed that it was
3 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now let's turn, if we may, to page 5, and if we look at
6 paragraph 25:
7 "We did not take notes during the meetings --"
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. "-- but Lubin would make (summary) reports or sitreps of our
10 meetings at the [sic] end of the day."
11 Now, it looks to me when I read that paragraph - and I may well
12 have misunderstood - that you also intended to refer to meetings, plural,
13 with Mr. Hadzic, but you're saying that's not correct?
14 A. I know and recall I met him twice. I recall that the second time
15 was concerning the agreement on that village.
16 Q. In any event, you're sure that on the first occasion you were
17 with Mr. Lubin?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. How long was Mr. Lubin stationed in Sector East?
20 A. I'm not sure that I'm in position to say, but I know it was
21 short. I left on the 21st of April, and I heard something maximum two
22 months later he left that mission.
23 Q. So he was there longer than you?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. He had more occasion to meet the leadership of the --
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. -- the local Serb authorities; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And what do you think Mr. Hadzic's position was when you met him?
5 A. I did not think; I was told. We were told by our people and the
6 civil police, local police, that Mr. Hadzic is overall in charge of the
7 Serbian -- not the JNA, the Serbian forces in the region.
8 Q. What position, if any, did they tell you that he held?
9 A. Leader, commander. But not -- not -- not military commander.
10 Leader, the lead, Mr. Hadzic, the big guy. I -- I said that earlier, I
11 think, in this court, that we've never been introduced officially with --
12 with -- with his title or rank and ...
13 Q. So you can't recall anyone ever having told you a specific
14 position that he held; is that right?
15 A. Well, yes, the police were saying that he is in charge of the
17 Q. Well, with respect, sir, that's not a position.
18 A. [Overlapping speakers]
19 Q. So I'm asking you, can you recall whether anyone -- whether you
20 have any information given to you at the time as to what position he
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you ever hear him referred to as a doctor?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You see, sir, I am very puzzled by your testimony --
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. -- because Mr. Lubin did come here and testify about his meetings
3 with Mr. -- with a Hadzic, but he testified categorically that the person
4 he met --
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is completely against the guide-lines, Your
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I agree, Mr. Demirdjian.
8 MR. GOSNELL: But Mr. President -- well, maybe I misunderstand
9 the guide-lines because I'm not going to ask this witness to comment on
10 his credibility, but I am, I believe - and I may be wrong, I may be
11 misunderstanding the guide-lines - but I thought that I would be
12 permitted to indicate that there is someone who was present who
13 contradicts this witness's testimony. I -- I --
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm looking at guide-line 24 which says that a
15 cross-examining party may put to a witness the evidence obtained from a
16 previous witness provided that the identity of that witness is not given.
17 And as my learned friend says it, parties are not asked -- are not to ask
18 witnesses to comment on credibility but this is not the focus. The focus
19 is the identify of that witness.
20 The damage has been done now.
21 MR. GOSNELL: But, Mr. President, Mr. Lubin was not a protected
22 witness, and --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's not -- that's not the point, Mr. Gosnell.
24 The guide-line is about two different things: (a) mentioning the identity
25 of a previous witness; and (b), questioning the witness on the stand
1 about the credibility of the previous witness.
2 So there is a (a) and a (b) --
3 MR. GOSNELL: But, Mr. President, I'm not proposing to do either
4 of those. All I wish to do is to put the evidence to the witness that
5 has been heard by Your Honours, and I think the only fair way for this
6 witness to respond or to answer is for him to, indeed, know the source of
7 the evidence. But I'm in Your Honours' hands. I --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, actually, you're out of my hands,
9 Mr. Gosnell, because the damage has been done.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, in -- in -- in your own
12 jurisdiction, would you be allowed to put a question like that to the
14 MR. GOSNELL: I -- I believe I would. But I -- I may be wrong.
15 But I believe that I would.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please continue.
17 MR. GOSNELL:
18 Q. Well, Mr. Abd El Razek, let me ask you this: Did you ever speak
19 with Mr. Lubin about the identity of the person with whom you were
20 meeting -- that you met on this occasion four days before the 20th of
22 A. Yes, sir. We all discussed the upcoming meeting with Mr. Hadzic,
23 including the sector commander, Mr. Lubin, and Mr. Zitterman the civil
24 police in charge. We often discussed what's going on -- actually, it was
25 our business, our day, and half night business because during night-time
1 we were not allowed to meet, but our day business was to talk about what
2 was going on on the territory in those area, who is who, who is doing
3 what, when, and what's happening. We are a team -- or we were a team to
4 discuss those things.
5 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Lubin say that he believed that the person
6 that you you were meeting was Dr. Mladen Hadzic?
7 A. No, I never heard about this.
8 Q. Did he tell you that the person you were meeting was part of the
9 local municipal Erdut authorities?
10 A. No. Mr. Hadzic was not local municipal that we met.
11 Q. And is it your testimony that you slept every night during those
12 ten days while you were in Sector East in Erdut?
13 A. Sleeping is one thing and staying overnight there is something
14 else. We hardly slept. But we were under curfew, and we -- every
15 evening we would go to that place. We rushed to see if we can still have
16 a warm water before the electricity will take off, and we'll sit there
17 chatting, doing whatever we could do, coffee or tea on -- on gas oven,
18 not on electric oven, and spend the night. And early in morning we were
19 happy to leave because our headquarter was more warmer and the heat was
20 properly working than our apartment.
21 Q. And you had to stay put in your location after night-fall because
22 there was a curfew in place.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And you couldn't move around during that curfew; is that right?
25 A. Correct. Except -- except when we were invited to go to the JNA
2 Q. Okay. And I'm going to come back to that occasion.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But it's right to say, then, that from dusk until dawn every
5 night during those ten days you stayed in Erdut.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. How many times, if you can recall, did you visit the Baranja
9 A. Beli Manastir? Sir? The Beli Manastir.
10 Q. Beli Manastir or the other towns in -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... Beli Manastir was my focus on visiting
12 outside Erdut. Dalj also, or Dalj, call it, was target for visiting. We
13 did Vukovar visit just for familiarity and -- and -- and to see the
14 remains of Vukovar. I believe I went to Beli Manastir three times. One
15 time coming back, we stopped at some of a small town, that we had coffee.
16 In Dalj we visited our civil police and the UNMO. And any time we go to
17 Osijek, and I went hardly twice, we'll pass through Dalj, see the -- our
18 folks, and will continue to co-ordinate with the UNMOs so we can cross
19 the mine line crossing.
20 Q. And am I right that you believed that there was a Belgian
21 UNPROFOR battalion based in the town where you were staying which you say
22 is Erdut?
23 A. No. Was no battalion. Was the sector commander was a Belgian
24 and the battalion was stationed in Beli Manastir.
25 MR. GOSNELL: Could we turn back to page 3 of the document on the
1 screen, please.
2 Q. Paragraph 11:
3 "There was a Belgian UNPROFOR battalion based in Erdut, which was
4 joined by a Russian UNPROFOR platoon of around 30 soldiers one week after
5 our arrival."
6 A. Yes, sir. With all due respect, when we went through this, I
7 re-corrected, I re -- I asked my investigator, the Prosecutor, to change
8 this, to correct this. It's not a battalion. And I did that before
9 coming to this respected court. It was some misunderstanding. The
10 chief, the commander of the sector was not the commander of the
11 battalion. The commander of the battalion was Mr. Joachim, who was
12 stationed in Beli Manastir. We had -- when we came, we had hardly seven
13 military personnel from UNPROFOR, and then we had something, 20 to 30,
14 young Russian soldiers coming the week after I arrived. The battalion
15 itself was stationed, and after I left, still there, Belgian battalion
16 commanded by Colonel Joachim.
17 Q. And Lieutenant-Colonel Joachim was based in Beli Manastir;
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Paragraph 13:
21 "In Erdut we would confer daily together with Lubin, the Belgian
22 battalion commander, and myself" --
23 A. Is incorrect. It's not Belgian battalion. It's a Belgian sector
25 Q. Is there any possibility at all that you're confused about the
1 town that you were in for at least some of your time in Sector East?
2 A. Definitely not. I -- I talked to my colleagues or your
3 colleagues in -- in -- in this respected organisation, that this is a
4 mistake. And maybe also my mistake, that I saw that, I sign it, I
5 skipped my mind to see Belgian battalion commander. Joachim never lived
6 in Erdut. The one who lived in Erdut was the sector commander, Belgians,
7 higher rank, I think lieutenant-general or general, full general. Not
8 lieutenant -- not Colonel Joachim. This I -- I -- I firmly insist on.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Abd El Razek, do you remember the name of
10 that sector commander?
11 THE WITNESS: I wrote it down, and I think I had a photo with --
12 with him, photo with his Chief of Staff, and I wrote on back of the photo
13 his name. I handed those photos to Mr. Alex. And if ... it is in his
14 hands --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: We have the document, Mr. Demirdjian?
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we do have it. We disclosed it to
17 the Defence. We haven't added it to the 65 ter list, but if it is
18 relevant we can make it available. I'm not sure if they're available in
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's not.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yeah, okay.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's not really necessary.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.
24 MR. GOSNELL:
25 Q. Mr. Abd El Razek, how would you describe your facial hair?
1 A. My facial hair? In -- in Arabic we say Krmshi [phoen], Krmshi
2 meaning it's brownish. I am the lightest in feature in my family. My
3 brothers are darker than myself.
4 Q. Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I didn't mean the colour.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. I was interested in how you groom your face. How would you
7 describe that, your facial hair?
8 A. I like myself.
9 Q. Sorry, I -- I -- it's very attractive on you, sir --
10 A. Thank you, sir.
11 Q. But I'm wondering what word you would use in English --
12 A. For my face?
13 Q. -- to describe your facial hair? Aside from an adjective or
14 description, how would you describe how you wear your facial hair?
15 A. My moustache. Many people confuse in United States with Latinos.
16 Q. And, Mr. Abd El Razek, my friend sitting next to me, how would
17 you describe his facial hair?
18 A. May I, sir? Can I?
19 Q. Well, what word would you use? And there's no need for too many
20 adjectives. We're looking for a noun, sir.
21 A. Very respected face.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Abd El Razek, I think Mr. Gosnell is trying
23 to get the difference between what you call a moustache --
24 THE WITNESS: Moustache and beard.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So --
1 THE WITNESS: It's a bearded face.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: There you are, Mr. Gosnell.
3 MR. GOSNELL:
4 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that the man sitting at the back --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Not the man immediately behind me, the man sitting at the back,
7 is he also wearing a beard?
8 A. Yes. Mr. Hadzic, always, nice beard. It used to be darker. And
9 moustache, of course.
10 Q. Do you remember that you had a telephone conversation with an
11 investigator or -- and perhaps a lawyer in 2012? Do you remember that,
12 first of all?
13 A. Telephone what? He called me home in Jerusalem to invite me to
14 the meeting, I think so.
15 Q. In June 2012 do you remember that you had a conversation with
16 Mr. Demirdjian and Mr. Versonnen?
17 A. In -- I came to this city quarter to be investigated. It starts
18 June? I think so, maybe. June. Is it June?
19 Q. Perhaps --
20 A. I spent two days with them.
21 Q. Perhaps this would be before you were speaking to them face to
22 face. Was there occasion or perhaps after or in between, do you remember
23 having a telephone conversation with some people from the Office of the
25 A. I think -- I believe Roel called me to Jerusalem. I think that
1 then -- then maybe Alex did. Some logistic people, trafficking people,
2 the ticket people. I received two, three calls to Jerusalem from the
3 city quarter to facilitate my arrival to this place.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D518, please, which is Defence
5 tab 301.
6 Q. In any event, am I right in saying that during the telephone
7 conversation, you weren't able to look at any photographs. They didn't
8 send you a fax with a photograph during the time of that conversation; is
9 that correct?
10 A. No photos. Of course, not.
11 Q. Have you seen this document that's now on the screen during the
12 course of this last weekend when you were preparing for your testimony?
13 Did you have a look at this.
14 A. I don't think that I read this thing. I seen that first -- the
15 first page on a -- the title, yes. But ... but not the details of page
17 Q. You didn't read this during the course of the weekend?
18 A. Maybe something down the pages. If you go down, I may refresh my
19 mind. That's all? One page?
20 Q. Yes, this is a one-page document, sir.
21 A. I don't recall. No. No.
22 Q. Well, leaving aside whether you saw this document, now that
23 you've looked at it, do you recall that you had a telephone conversation
24 in which you mentioned these facts to the Prosecution?
25 A. I -- if you mean the description of Mr. Hadzic, I did emphasise
1 the moustache, not the beard. That's correct.
2 Q. Well, why wouldn't you say beard if, as we've already established
3 you understand beard to be precisely how Mr. Hadzic's facial hair is
5 A. I said moustache. I emphasised the moustache, not the beard.
6 You understand what I'm saying. They asked if I can describe the man. I
7 said tall, dark, with moustache, and maybe I skipped to say beard. But
8 I -- then my correction, impression that he was tall, like I said also
9 handsome. It's not here -- written here. Pleasant face with moustache.
10 I did not describe [indiscernible]. That's true.
11 Q. So it's correct that during the conversation you did not describe
12 him as having a beard; correct?
13 A. That's, I think, correct.
14 Q. And why wouldn't you simply say he had a beard?
15 A. I don't know. It skipped my mind. I mean, you go to the human
16 mind and ask why you -- you -- you know -- you're familiar with the
17 Gestalt test, you know, I -- the first impression, the beard or the
18 moustache or the eyes or the eyeglasses. Many of my colleagues who did
19 work on their nose the first thing that they were asked they did
20 something with their eyes or glasses. I -- this is images that I don't
21 know how -- you don't have control on those things and I'm not saying
22 that it is correct or it is objectively right. This is human impression.
23 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have 4924.5, which is a Prosecution
25 Q. Did you see this picture during the weekend before you came to
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Can you remember how it was shown to you? What were the
4 circumstances? What was said about this photograph when it was shown to
6 A. I was told that I'm going to see pictures, movies, silent, and I
7 was asked if I can recognise some of those people. It is what were at
8 least believed four or five photos. I was not led to those
9 personalities. I was told please let us know if you can recognise --
10 whom you can recognise, and, to tell you the truth, I immediately
11 recognised Mr. Hadzic in the four, five photos that I was seeing.
12 Q. Did you immediately recognise him in this frame, in this video?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, to me, that's a very fuzzy image. I'd like to know how,
15 after, 22 years, 21 years, you could have instantly picked out that man
16 as being Goran Hadzic.
17 A. I did with Mladic, I did it with Karadzic. I did with other
18 people that I recognised. I told this respected court last day that I
19 have problems with names but I can visualise things for 20, 30 years.
20 As -- it's something that I have it from God. Maybe from the parents'
21 genes. But this is me. And with the names, it's difficult. Places,
22 yes, I can recognise very well. Faces, I recognise and remember very
23 well. Sometimes --
24 Q. Sorry, let me just intercede here. And one of the people that
25 you recognised on this videos was Milan Gvero; is that correct?
1 A. I think so.
2 Q. How many times did you meet Mr., or General Gvero?
3 A. Twice at least. Twice or something.
4 MR. GOSNELL: So we please have 4845.1. And for this, I'll need
5 the Prosecutor's kind assistance. And it's 50 seconds.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 MR. GOSNELL:
9 Q. Or we can just stop it there.
10 A. Yeah. Well, I tell you something. This is Mladic for sure.
11 Hadzic for sure. For Gvero, I think this is a bit different. The nose
12 is not Gvero nose. But it looks like Milan Gvero.
13 MR. GOSNELL: Perhaps we can move forward to the better image,
14 which is 50 seconds.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. GOSNELL:
17 Q. Is that Gvero there to the left of Mr. Mladic?
18 A. I thought this morning. I said maybe it's Gvero. I did say this
19 morning that I think it's Mr. Gvero. Now I re-look at him, I'm not sure.
20 Q. You have doubts now?
21 A. Yeah. Because of the nose.
22 Q. Ever heard of someone named General Momir Talic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Well, I put it to you that that is General Momir Talic and it's
25 not Milan Gvero.
1 A. Okay. Well, I have my doubts too on my recollection. I'm not
2 perfect, and I think that, you know, immediately I recognised my mistake
3 with the nose.
4 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that. Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
5 If we could have 1D518 back on the screen, please.
6 Q. Again, this is a document we were just looking at. And, sir, I
7 don't represent to you that this is your statement. This is a memo
8 provided to us by the Prosecution of the content of your conversations
9 with them, just so you understand clearly.
10 And it says there -- and this is the phone conversation memo, and
11 it says:
12 "The third person on this page is Dr. Mladen Hadzic and the
13 witness stated he had never heard of him."
14 Now that suggests to me that you had some photographs in front of
15 you. But I may be wrong. Maybe you only had a list of names.
16 Did you have a list of names or did you have --
17 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... the first testimony I never had
18 photos. The 19, 12, I never saw photos. I had only names.
19 Q. Okay. I should have read the entire paragraph to you to make
20 clear what it says. It says:
21 "The witness was provided a copy of the decision on the
22 appointment of presidents and vice-presidents. The third person on this
23 page is Dr. Mladen Hadzic and the witness stated he had never heard of
25 Do you remember looking at his name back in 2012 and telling the
1 Prosecutor that you'd never heard of Dr. Mladen Hadzic?
2 A. I think so. I think that, you know, there is confusion between
3 the doctor and Mr. Hadzic that I know. I never met the other Hadzic.
4 Q. But here you -- it's recorded that not only had you never met the
5 other Hadzic, you had never heard of the other Hadzic?
6 A. Apparently. Apparently I did not.
7 Q. Is that what told them in 2012?
8 A. I think so. I mean, I tell you something. I did the testimony,
9 I sign it, I was given the testimony to read and maybe skip a few things,
10 but at large the testimony reflects my testimony to the ... I was told,
11 asked, actually, later on, in Jerusalem, they send me names, asked me if
12 I can recognise some of those names. I replied to them, to the best of
13 my knowledge, most of names I -- I never tackled or met or knew. I
14 looked at my lists again. I have very short list of names or whatever
15 were Beli Manastir and the local -- Erdut and the area. I never met
16 beyond that or recall, discuss, or seen report beyond that other names.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
18 A. Sure.
19 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D498, please. Defence tab 288.
20 Q. Paragraph 5, this is another proofing note, and it's again a memo
21 from the Prosecution telling us what you said during the weekend.
22 A. This weekend?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. And down at paragraph 5 is says:
1 "In relation to the last paragraph of 28 June 2012 proofing note,
2 the witness states that he now recalls that there was another Hadzic
3 besides Goran Hadzic but he did not meet him. "
4 A. Yes. Now --
5 Q. Now my question -- let me get to my question: Back in 2012, you
6 had a list in front of you, which included Dr. Mladen Hadzic's name. And
7 at that time, you told the Prosecution that you had never heard of him?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Then you come here, and this weekend, which is a year later, a
10 year further away from the events --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- now you are able to recall this man. Can you help us
13 understand how and why that would happen?
14 A. Yeah. Gossips, Lubin. Sorry for mentioning that, but I was told
15 by my colleagues, not in the headquarters, that Lubin came and made
16 statements on the other -- other Hadzic. And that -- that after I had
17 the list and saying I don't recognise any names on those lists.
18 Q. So you're saying you heard something about the content of
19 Mr. Lubin's testimony and --
20 A. That --
21 Q. Let me just finish my question. And that that reminded you that
22 you had met another Hadzic named Mladen?
23 A. No. I did not say I had met. I said the name. Not met.
24 Q. That's my mistake. It reminded you that you had heard --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- of another individual named Mladen Hadzic?
2 A. Yes. Yes. And this is after I received the list from -- from
3 the colleagues.
4 Q. But even though you now recall that there was a Mladen Hadzic,
5 you -- that does not change your recollection that it was Goran Hadzic
6 you met and not Mladen Hadzic?
7 A. Correct, correct. Correct. I never met the other Hadzic.
8 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that document. Thank you.
9 Q. Am I right that Mr. Lubin prepared sitreps promptly after the
10 meetings or the events that he records in his sitreps?
11 A. Just a small correction. He wrote reports. The sitreps written
12 by the army. If it is said sitrep here it's a mistake. He's -- the
13 sitrep is a situation report done by sector commander. We as civilians
14 or civil affairs we wrote reports or mostly we helped the sector
15 commander to write a sitrep.
16 Q. Whatever they may be called, did he prepare them promptly after
17 the events described to your knowledge?
18 A. No doubt.
19 Q. Did you ever see these reports?
20 A. Some of them I helped drafting.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 05932, please, which is Defence tab
23 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, can you say the number again please.
24 MR. GOSNELL: Certainly. 05932 which is also P1389.1351.
25 Q. Now, this appears to be a communication from James Lubin --
1 A. Mm-hm.
2 Q. -- to Cedric Thornberry. It says: Situation report --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. 21 April. Does that remind you that, in fact, situation reports
5 were sent?
6 A. Okay. Is the sector commander's signature here?
7 Q. Third line down, sir.
8 A. Third line. The meeting was warmest -- this is what you said?
9 Paragraph 3?
10 Q. No, the third line down. I'm just asking you if this refreshes
11 your memory that these reports were called situation reports.
12 A. Hmm, the form looks like situation reports, right. Sitrep. But
13 the report is from -- apparently from Jim Lubin.
14 Q. Let's read paragraph 1:
15 "Because" --
16 And again, the date is for the record is the 21st of April, 1992,
17 or 1992.
18 A. Mm-hm.
19 Q. "Because of yesterday's mass expulsions (total is 128 verified by
20 CIVPOL), a letter of protest is being sent to Dr. Hadzic, president of
21 local authorities Erdut. A copy of the Jovic letter will also be
23 A. I understand the confusion here.
24 Q. Do you know, from your recollection, on the 19th or 20th or any
25 days leading up to this date, was Mr. Lubin having separate meetings
1 with -- with -- let me -- let me just complete my question -- was he
2 having separate meetings with this Dr. Hadzic, who we understand whose
3 first name is Mladen?
4 A. I can testify that Mr. Lubin did have separate meetings with
5 people as -- as I did myself too. We, in certain meetings we would go
6 together. Certain other, each one go to run the meetings. I don't
7 recall this name at all, Dr. Hadzic. And this report was written after I
8 left, on the morning I left, so I do not have any clue of the content of
9 this report at the time it was sent. Maybe later on I was seen -- shown
10 by the colleague here. But, I, at the time, I had no relation to this
11 report, and I do affirm that Mr. Lubin went -- I went from center
12 Beli Manastir to meet that parliamentarians. He was not with me. He
13 went to -- to meet all kind of people around with the sector commander.
14 We are not always -- but we co-ordinated at large. I mean, I -- this is
15 not something that I can say done behind my back, I was something in the
16 dark, no. It's true. But you're busy with your meeting. You come to
17 report on your meeting. You are exhausted with your meeting, and the
18 other one has own meeting, and we, next morning, normally before we start
19 the day, would strategize for the day and regardless of the details of
20 the day before.
21 Q. Given your experience in the ten days that you were working with
22 Mr. Lubin in Sector East, in his role as the chief of civil affairs,
23 wouldn't he seek out and try to communicate with those whom he perceived
24 to be the most senior interlocutors that he could?
25 A. Definitely, yes.
1 Q. And it's not very likely that he would have addressed, would you
2 agree with me, a letter to someone other than the most senior
3 interlocutor he had spoken to; correct?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. Could we have 05933, please, and this is P1390.1351. It's
6 Defence tab 79. If we can turn to page -- if we can just look at the
7 front page, sir, to familiarize yourself. This is a sitrep --
8 A. 22nd of April.
9 Q. The 22nd of April, 1992, from Lubin to Thornberry --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If we can now turn the page. If we go about two thirds of the
12 way down there's a sentence that begins:
13 "My rather look and detailed answer covered our numerous appeals
14 to several" -- something "auth. To control these expulsions, the
15 monitoring mechanism agreement adhered to in principle but not in fact by
16 the Erdut local government. The letter of protest to [sic] Jovic, my
17 letter to Erdut president Dr. Hadzic" -- and it goes on?
18 Again we see here, do we not, a reference to Dr. Hadzic, correct?
19 A. I assume you ask him about those things and he answer you. I
20 have no knowledge of -- of -- those report I have no control on and what
21 Mr. Lubin was saying. I committed in this court to say the truth, but
22 the truth, and only the truth, and my meeting were the two, twice with
23 Mr. Hadzic who is present in this room.
24 Q. Can you think of any reason why either you or Mr. Lubin could
25 have been confused about the person, the identity of the person they were
1 speaking to?
2 A. You don't want me to do some speculation here. You want me to
3 the truth --
4 Q. To be clear, I'm not asking for speculation. What I am asking is
5 whether there was something in the circumstances of your meetings that
6 could have given rise to that confusion. That's my question.
7 A. I would say that there's a mixture here, on -- on mixing things
8 with Mr. Lubin. And I think that Mr. Lubin mixed between Dr. Hadzic and
9 Mr. Hadzic somehow. Maybe -- maybe because the ranking. The fact that
10 he want to communicate with high-ranking locals. I cannot definitely
11 give you a convincing answer, not that I'm going around to deny the
12 answer. I can't. I honestly cannot.
13 Q. So there's nothing in the circumstances that gave rise to
14 confusion, miscommunication? There's nothing you can think of that gave
15 rise to those elements in any contacts you were having with the local
16 Serb authorities?
17 A. One thing I can tell you. Coming from New York or other culture,
18 extremely difficult with those names, extremely difficult to remember
19 those names and exactly even to write them. It took me a while to
20 consider the J as Ye and S with Hat as Sh and C -- this is -- this is
21 something really you had to learn and a long process, difficult. And my
22 handwriting also more difficult. The confusion with the names at the
23 beginning, I would say, it was I think an honest and naive mistake. But
24 later on, if it was something like a few months later I would doubt --
25 not doubt the intention but the beginning was totally confuse.
1 Q. As your superior, did Mr. Lubin do most or all of the talking at
2 the meeting that you attended with Mr. Hadzic?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Did you say anything at all?
5 A. Yes. I described things that I -- I seen. Of course --
6 Q. But for the most part, you were listening; correct?
7 A. With high-ranking, normally, and I was trained as a bureaucrat in
8 New York you let the superior talk. But in those circumstances I talked,
9 I spoke. In the boat even I spoke. Not -- no.
10 Q. During those 45 minutes -- and let's put it a different way: In
11 a meeting of 45 minutes' duration in which Mr. Lubin or someone other
12 person is speaking on behalf of UNPROFOR, wouldn't it be normal for you
13 to take a note of the conversation?
14 A. We were told not to take notes. In the boat and elsewhere. We
15 were careful. We don't want to be seen as taking notes in the boat was
16 clearly JNA ask us not to take notes. And we took it as a pattern.
17 Regrettably. But this is ...
18 Later on, I did -- we did establish with -- with -- with -- in
19 Bosnia, we established forcibly that we would take notes. But at the
20 beginning, with JNA, in that area, during my time on that area, notes
21 were not being taken.
22 Q. So no notes with the JNA. But did you take notes of
23 conversations that you had with local officials?
24 A. Not during the meeting.
25 Q. Did you make such notes immediately after the meetings?
1 A. [Overlapping speakers].
2 Q. And I use the word plural because I want to be clear: I'm asking
3 you about meetings in general with local civilian authorities.
4 A. We had to come back to the headquarter and to report verbally.
5 And then the evening sitting and write the report.
6 Q. So you did do that?
7 A. In reporting, of course. The sitrep was a reflecting what we
8 were -- what we were writing or summary of the meetings. I took some
9 notes for myself in my book later on. I took in Arabic some feelings,
10 some reflections, I had names, recollections, but certainly during
11 meeting, we were not taking notes.
12 Q. But you had an English-language notebook as well. Were you
13 keeping that English-language notebook contemporaneously? Every day were
14 you recording the events that took place during that day?
15 A. Not necessarily every day. For instance, when we came back from
16 that incident on the 20th, Marinci, I was so hurt I could not sit and
18 Q. We'll come to that even in more detail
19 but -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 A. Yeah, I know, but I -- and this is for example. And other
21 element, sir, when you come back late, meaning dark time, there is no way
22 you can write the notes. Only next morning, if you have time and not
23 rushing to another incident to write note. Because dark, no electricity,
24 cold, and you cannot write. I wrote some few things. Name -- I tried to
25 write the names in order not to forget those people. But not really
1 serious notes.
2 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have 03110, which is Defence
3 tab 286.
4 Q. Now, sir, this is your notebook --
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. -- coming up. And if we could please go to page 12. Now, sir,
7 there, at the top of the page --
8 A. My name is --
9 Q. You seem to have identified the participants in a meeting. And
10 you say CP Vukovar, his deputy, CP Osijek, head of police department, and
11 so forth.
12 A. Oh. This is the Croats. That's a meeting with the civil police
13 and internal ministry of the Croats in -- of -- of Osijek.
14 Q. So on the 14th of April, 1992, you're taking a note of a
15 conversation with some Croatian officials?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where does that meeting take place?
18 A. In Osijek.
19 Q. And you record the names of those individuals who are
20 participating, correct?
21 A. I did -- I did on the top. I'm trying to, yes, I think -- I was
22 taken by Mr. Zitterman, the civil police --
23 Q. Sir, we don't need to go into a lot of detail.
24 A. Sure, okay.
25 Q. I just want to have you confirm that, indeed, you did take a note
1 of the individuals participating and the content of the conversation.
2 A. I'm not sure that is during the meeting. That is -- yeah.
3 Q. Do you recall --
4 A. This is why the names, I re-correct the names, because we confirm
5 was this the guy, that guy, the names, and the one, two, three, four, I
6 believe I wrote it down after we came back.
7 Q. Let's go to page 19, please.
8 A. Beli Manastir, yup.
9 Q. Now, we're not going to linger on this page because you've
10 distinguished between meetings that you had with UNPROFOR and meetings
11 that you had with local officials, but it does appear to indicate a note
12 of a meeting with Lieutenant-Colonel Joachim. Now then if we turn the
13 page to 21. At the top of the page, it's written:
14 "B Manastir, 17 April, 1992. Meeting with military and civil --"
15 A. Civil police. CIVPOL.
16 Q. Does it say AUT, authorities?
17 A. Meeting, military, civ ... yeah. Military and civil affairs,
18 yeah. And civil police I think, or affairs. Oh, meeting between Joachim
19 and military and civil affairs, yes.
20 Q. You don't think that there are any local Serb officials present
21 at that meeting?
22 A. Not -- not in this meeting. This is the guide-lines that wrote.
23 Q. Let's go to the next page, please.
24 A. And maybe, there...
25 Q. Do the questions posed there at the bottom of the page posed, in
1 your view, or in the second half of the page, are they being posed by UN
2 officials or are they being posed by Serb officials?
3 A. Those are our own questions and answers. The team. Those
4 guide-lines with the Lubins.
5 Q. Do you realise that there is no notation of any of your two
6 meetings with Mr. Hadzic in your notebook?
7 A. Yes, I did notice.
8 Q. And if Mr. Hadzic is the man of importance that you believe him
9 to have been, why wouldn't you at least have taken a note of that?
10 A. I -- because this was so important that Mr. Lubin has to report
11 it to Mr. Cedric Thornberry. There is no sense of writing two notes.
12 Q. Do you remember whether you looked at the sitreps that he
13 prepared for Mr. Thornberry on those occasions?
14 A. Maybe yes; maybe no. I cannot specifically, honestly telling you
15 that that report on the meeting of Hadzic, I see that. I really honestly
16 cannot tell you that I did.
17 Q. You don't recall having looked at those reports and had it jump
18 out at you that the person identified in the reports, as far as you're
19 concerned, is the different from the person you were meeting?
20 A. Not in my report because that -- this report was 21st. I already
21 left 21st. The Lubin sitrep, the first, was 21st. I was not there
23 Q. Let's look at one reference to Hadzic that does appear in your
24 notebook. If we can go to the next page, please.
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. Now, can you read for us that paragraph below the line.
2 A. "The Martic, Martic anti-terrorist police/Erdut, he is the man
3 who given orders to the police with red parade. Practically they are
4 militias. Martic is the boss of Hadzic."
5 It's what I wrote.
6 Q. Where did you get that information?
7 A. Either from our sources, civil police, or from the UNMOs. But
8 those are -- something from internal information. Is not from people
9 outside the UNPROFOR personnel.
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. Otherwise I would mention that I will -- earlier I mentioned that
12 civil -- the police told us that Hadzic this and this, but this, no.
13 This is a note for info.
14 Q. On page 20 -- I'm sorry, on page 24, which is the next page of
15 your diary.
16 A. 20.
17 Q. This is the -- these are the events of 20th of April and we're
18 just going to look at this briefly. We're going to come back to those
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. But since we have the diary in front of us, it's timely to bring
22 it up.
23 You describe here hearing or being told that there was going to
24 be a removal, transportation of some Croats who want to leave the area.
25 And it says there:
1 "Contact was made with local civil authority and we proceeded
2 together with chief police Vukovar to the village."
3 Now do I understand correctly that your testimony is that you met
4 Mr. Hadzic on that occasion and that that's who you refer to when you say
5 "local civil authority"?
6 A. Not local civil authority. But this -- we did meet. We had to
7 proceed to that place but through a meeting with Hadzic.
8 Q. Are you saying that when you wrote down "local civil authority,"
9 you didn't intend to refer to Mr. Hadzic?
10 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
11 Q. You didn't consider Mr. Hadzic to be what you would describe as a
12 local civil authority, did you?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So why do you think would you have noted that the person you met
15 prior to going to Marinci was local civil authority?
16 A. There is a description between what's written here and what I'm
17 testifying, sir. I'm testifying that we went after we were informed to
18 Mr. Hadzic and then we proceeded to this civil authorities, including the
19 civil police in -- in -- in Vukovar and the mayor of or the head of
21 Q. Sorry. When you say there is a description between, do you
22 intend so say that there is a discrepancy between --
23 A. Discrepancy is all right. Okay. And not -- not -- not
24 necessarily negating.
25 Q. And after you left Sector East and you went to Zagreb and then
1 Sarajevo, did you hear a lot about Mr. Goran Hadzic? Did you hear his
2 name mentioned frequently?
3 A. I participated every morning in Sarajevo with Chief of Staff
4 briefing. They have two meetings at the higher level headquarter. It
5 was then the headquarter of UNPROFOR. They first meet with the sector
6 commander and CT, Thornberry, and Chief of Staff, and they have then next
7 meeting organised by Chief of Staff. With this meeting, a briefing from
8 each sector will be presented --
9 Q. And just to cut this short, were the -- did the Sector East
10 reports and presentations mention --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- Mr. Hadzic, Goran Hadzic's name frequently?
13 A. I don't think that frequently, no.
14 Q. Did you see his photograph --
15 A. Then?
16 Q. -- then while you were stationed either -- when you were either
17 travelling through Zagreb or stationed in Zagreb or stationed in
19 A. Never, never.
20 Q. You never saw his photograph?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You never saw him on television?
23 A. No. We had no television in Sarajevo.
24 Q. And between 1992 and 1995 --
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. -- did you see him on television and hear his name being
2 mentioned frequently?
3 A. I left the mission on April 1993. Went back to New York. And
4 initially I was helping the -- peacekeeping department on the situation
5 in Bosnia. Not in Croatia. So the whole activity, my activity when I
6 came from -- to New York was mostly concentrating on Bosnia, not on
8 Q. And in that context you never heard anything about Goran Hadzic
9 or saw his photographs or saw him on video?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Who was your interpreter when you met Mr. Hadzic?
12 A. A gentleman from Beli Manastir. I wrote initially his name and
13 it's in a note somewhere. Maybe here, also the notes.
14 Q. Did you consider him to be a reliable interpreter?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. No indication that he was not translating in a correct and
17 accurate fashion?
18 A. This was not my -- our impression. I trusted him and I thought
19 that he is doing a good job.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I will move on to a new topic. It
21 might be an appropriate time.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
23 Mr. Abd El Razek, this is the time for our second break. 30
24 minutes again. We will come back at 12.45. You will be escorted out of
25 the courtroom. Thank you.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
3 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I just wanted to apologise if I
4 violated the guide-lines. I did not intend to do so, or do so wittingly.
5 But I do apologise for doing that.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 Court adjourned.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Two things. Firstly, I have to apologise
12 personally for the late start of this third session. I'm the one to
13 blame. I just forgot the time.
14 Secondly, Mr. Abd El Razek, I heard you had some back problems.
15 If there is anything we can do to accommodate you, you -- you need to
16 stand for a moment, or you need a break, please tell us.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much for your concern. I appreciate
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Gosnell, please continue.
21 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Abd El Razek, I just want to look a little bit further at
23 your diary or at your notebook, and what we're going to do is look at
24 three different pages and then I'm going to ask you a question at the end
25 of these three pages.
1 MR. GOSNELL: So if we could, first of all, turn to page 7 of the
2 document on the screen.
3 Q. Now, sir, here we have three individuals identified. A
4 Mr. Sablakovic, and Mr. Milan somebody. Can you help us with what you
5 may have written there, after Milan?
6 A. VP of the local government.
7 Q. And just below the name Milan, can you --
8 A. Oh, I think this was the parliamentary. Vice-president of the
9 local government, I believe, is -- would be -- and then Slobodan is
10 the -- the interpreter. Latas was the president of the parliament.
11 Those I met in Beli Manastir. I wrote in Arabic this is a -- the man,
12 middle-aged, Milan, and I wrote on Latas old man.
13 Q. And just below the name Milan, there are four letters --
14 A. Voij is the family name. Voij something.
15 Q. Do I understand you there to be noting that he is the
16 vice-president of the local government of Beli Manastir?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Let's turn now to page 12.
19 Q. And there at the top, do I understand that you're identifying
20 those individuals as being -- what does CP refer to?
21 A. Civil police, Vukovar. His deputy, Josef Ranc [phoen], CIVPOL
22 probably. CIVPOL probably is the police force.
23 Q. So you're identifying civil police and the head of the police
24 department; is that correct?
25 A. Something like that. Yes. Those are the -- the Croatian guys
1 that we met in, yes.
2 Q. And then if we could turn now to page 26, please. Now, here we
3 have an indication of Vujovic's position as secretary of people defence
4 of Vukovar; Dragan Lazic, chief of police; Milan Bentic, head of village?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Now, sir, those are all indications or instances where you were
7 able to make a notation -- identify and make a notation of the positions
8 of various officials either on the Serbian or the Croat side; correct?
9 A. I was trying hard. It's not always easy.
10 Q. Don't you think that if you had met the president of the RSK you
11 would have noted that and you would have noted his position?
12 A. Yeah, I think I did. Not -- not necessarily in the book. I --
13 honestly, I don't have an answer, an honest answer for you. Those are
14 the things that I did. Things I did not do at that time, they have their
15 own explanation, not today, I cannot explain it today.
16 Q. Your testimony is that you went to Beli Manastir three times;
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Let's take a look at some entries in your diary about that.
20 Could we go to page 5. And this, out of an abundance of caution,
21 shouldn't be broadcast.
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Now, to be entirely fair to you, at the top of the page you've
24 got a notation, Erdut, and then you've got a notation a little further
25 down, 12 April, 5.45. There's a name which I won't utter because it
1 could be someone who has a particular status, and it says:
2 "Regarding the" something "in the Beli Manastir."
3 Can you tell us what that says without mentioning the name?
7 MR. GOSNELL: I'm sorry, we're going to -- Mr. President, I tried
8 to avoid that. I think we have to redact that reference.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Yes, I see, Mr. Gosnell.
10 I think it will be best to remind the witness the precise
11 question, Mr. Gosnell. You asked what the word is after "regarding the,"
13 MR. GOSNELL: That's correct, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Line under -- under the date 12th April.
15 MR. GOSNELL:
16 Q. Do you --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, please go ahead.
18 MR. GOSNELL:
19 Q. Do you see that Mr. Abd El Razek, there's that line. It says
20 Mr. Someone, we won't mention the name, regarding, and then what does it
22 A. The families in Beli Manastir.
23 Q. Now, it says:
24 "He is willing to meet the families, cross the bridge in Batina."
25 Now does this in any way refresh your memory that you -- well,
1 were you in Beli Manastir at this time?
2 A. I think this note with Bernard was in our office in Erdut, not on
3 the spot in Beli Manastir. We were communicating with them, and they
4 were, quote up quote, and excuse me for the expression, fleeing the area.
5 They felt as representatives of the Europeans are not wanted in that
7 Q. Let turn, if we can, to the next page which seems to have some
8 notations in respect of the 13th of April, and then it says right under
9 that first reference to 13, 4, 1992, it says a contact was made with
10 Mr. -- and we won't mention his name, Mr. Abd El Razek. Now do you
11 recall looking at these notations, were you in Beli Manastir on the 13th
12 of April?
13 A. It's written down. I omitted the EC representative. I went to
14 feed the families to the families in Hungarian in one date. It has to
15 there. It was May [indiscernible]. I think it was the date after that.
16 We met them on the bridge. I think it's the day after or something.
17 Q. And do you recall where you met these EC officials who you say
18 are based in Osijek?
19 A. Oh, I met in Erdut. The 13th of -- and April, yes
20 [indiscernible]. Okay. I think that in -- Beli Manastir, definitely
22 Q. So you're saying you did not meet them anywhere in Baranja. You
23 met in Erdut. Is that --
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. Let's go to the next page, please. Here we have the page we saw
1 before. It's referring to three -- well, actually, five officials.
2 A. Mm-hm.
3 Q. Or four officials of Beli Manastir.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Do you recall whether you got that information when you were in
6 Beli Manastir or did you get that information when you were in Erdut?
7 A. My description in Arabic indicated I did that on the spot in
8 Beli Manastir because I -- I am describing the two men, and one is
9 middle-aged and one old aged. If I wrote it later on, it's a different
10 story. Maybe yes. But I could not write the description of those people
11 without seeing them.
12 Q. And how long did it take to you travel from Erdut to
13 Beli Manastir by car?
14 A. Maximum 40. Minutes, of course.
15 Q. And if we can please go to page 12. We have your meeting with
16 the Croatian officials. Where did that occur?
17 A. With that -- and -- they could not come to the territories,
18 Osijek. Small office in, I think, the headquarters of the police or
20 Q. And did you drive directly from Erdut or did you have to pass
21 through Serbia before going to --
22 A. No, we had the crossing, with mine land or land-mined cross.
23 Q. Do you recall whether on that day, accepting that there is a
24 crossing, do you recall whether on that day you travelled directly or did
25 you travel through Beli Manastir to Osijek?
1 A. No, no. It is no sense going to -- through Beli Manastir to
3 Q. How long were you in Osijek that day?
4 A. We spent the morning and we were taken to lunch, and then we left
6 Q. And what time did you arrive back?
7 A. Not late. Something like 2.30, 3.00, or ... must be not later
8 than this.
9 Q. Page 15. This page refers to cases of protection. And on this
10 page there is a reference to Branjina and Jagodnjak. These are both
11 towns in Baranja region, aren't they?
12 A. I believe that you are saying what you know. I don't recall
13 this ...
14 Q. Well, do you recall that on the 15th you were in the Baranja
16 A. No. I'm writing about -- no. I didn't say I was there.
17 Q. I'm not saying you said you were there. Let me be very clear in
18 my question: I'm asking you whether when you look at this page and you
19 see the information that's written down there, that you wrote down --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- does that remind you that you received this information when
22 you were in the -- that you were on the spot in Beli Manastir or in the
23 Baranja region?
24 A. No. Those are -- must be cases that I wrote down in Erdut.
25 Q. And how would that information have -- how would that information
1 have come to you in Erdut?
2 A. Either civil police, mostly civil police.
3 Q. So you're saying they drove down and provided you with this
5 A. They were stationed in Erdut. They were travelling -- our civil
6 police, CIVPOL, going up to -- to Beli Manastir, come with information.
7 They'll also I have to recall, information coming us -- coming to us from
8 the European [indiscernible] in from the CRC, the Red Cross. Where is
9 the resource of this information right now? Honestly, I cannot --
10 [indiscernible] local police [indiscernible] still the same, no. I
11 cannot tell you where it is, but definitely our information came from our
12 resources, not from the local resource.
13 Q. Let's look at the next -- the notation for the next day. On page
14 20, please.
15 16th April:
16 "Our presence helped protected them," et cetera.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Were you in Beli Manastir or Baranja that day?
19 A. The 16. On the bridge, yes. 16:
20 "Today we worked to facilitate the crossing of the two familiars
21 from the" -- yes, through the Baranja bridge. The ICRC was delayed for
22 two hours, et cetera, et cetera. Yes.
23 Q. How long were new Baranja region on that day?
24 A. I arrived earlier. The whole thing took maybe three hours.
25 Q. Page 21. Next page. Top. It says:
1 "Beli Manastir, 17 April, 1992. Meeting with" -- and we've
2 already discussed that notation. How long were you in Beli Manastir that
4 A. Again, it's not -- it's three, four hours. Not more.
5 Q. Now, you've said that the meeting you had with Mr. Hadzic
6 occurred some four days before the 20th.
7 A. Something --
8 Q. And that --
9 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 Q. Let me just finish my question, please, for the assistance of the
11 transcriber. And that would make it the 16th or the 17th of April,
12 approximately. Can you help us with reference to the notations in your
13 notebook as to which of those days it was --
14 A. It could [Overlapping speakers] --
15 Q. -- that you met with Mr. Hadzic?
16 A. Could be the 18th. I -- I said, honestly, I said, few days
17 before the 20th. Now between the 14th and the 19th, this will be taking
19 Q. So you -- you can't situate that meeting --
20 A. No.
21 Q. -- with Mr. Hadzic in relation to any of the events that we've
22 just been looking at in your diary?
23 A. Yeah, I was asked before whereby in the [indiscernible]. I
24 failed to give him exact date.
25 Q. Aren't the vast majority of the entries in your notebook
1 concerning events in Baranja region?
2 A. In Baranja?
3 Q. That's correct.
4 A. I think Baranja, my experience, would go to major events. The
5 meeting with the parliamentarians, discussion, concerning the situation,
6 and it would be the -- escorting the two families. Yes. Of course, we
7 had a meeting between and after and before with Mr. -- Colonel Joachim.
8 Q. And I put it to you that there's no reference in your notebook to
9 several - let me please finish my question - to several important
10 noteworthy events of civilians leaving the area of Erdut? In fact, isn't
11 it right that there isn't a single reference other than Marinci, the
12 Marinci event, to any transportation of the civilians from the area south
13 of Erdut? Isn't that correct?
14 A. It's correct that I did not witness those things.
15 Q. That wasn't the question. The question was: Isn't it correct
16 that your notebook contains no notation at all of any of those events
17 around Erdut between the 11th of April, 1992, and the 20th of April,
19 A. Except I have, on the 11, or reporting on the 11 or the 12th, we
20 had report on the three, four incidents between the 8th, 9th -- 7, 8th,
21 9th, something, on -- on -- on deportation from Erdut, from Dalj, and
22 from other places. But yesterday I failed to pronounce the name.
23 Q. What I'm putting to you, Mr. Abd El Razek, to be clear, and to
24 give you an opportunity to respond, is that looking through your
25 notebook, virtually every notation is about events in Baranja between the
1 12th and the 20th.
2 My question for you is: Why, if you were based in Erdut during
3 that time-period, wouldn't there be notations about events around the
4 area of Erdut?
5 A. I think that we have on the horses and the two families that came
6 to complain to us. I mentioned somewhere that came to complain and we
7 discuss it with the local police, and the local police said, insisted
8 that they had no charge of those people. As a matter of fact, the local
9 police who served the people who referred us to Mr. Hadzic.
10 Q. Mr. Abd El Razek, I put it to you that you were not based in
11 Erdut for most of the time that you were in Sector East, and I put it to
12 you that you never met with Mr. Hadzic.
13 A. Sir, in this Court, I committed since day one, I am still
14 committed to tell the truth, only truth, and but the truth. I never left
15 on those ten days Erdut. I served in Erdut those ten days. My last day
16 was the incidents of Marinci. I have photos, if you wish, me in the --
17 in the headquarter. This could be verified. There is the sitreps of --
18 that mentioned my involvement in -- in the Marinci. I do not have photos
19 of every steps that I walked on that village, but I here to say the
20 truth, to tell the truth, as what I reported, I witnessed here, this is
21 what I know and believe and convey to you.
22 Q. But you've also told us that your memory of dates and names may
23 be less than perfect. So I want to ask you: Is there any possibility
24 that you have muddled who it was you met and with whom you met them?
25 A. Maybe confusing names, but I definitely not confusing the vision,
1 the faces and the people. I never confuse me seeing and meeting with
2 Mr. Hadzic.
3 Q. You didn't forget the face. How was it that you put the name to
4 the face.
5 A. When we went to meet Mr. Hadzic, we were told that we're going to
6 meet Mr. Hadzic. And we enter his office, we greet him as Mr. Hadzic.
7 Cannot be somebody else.
8 Q. You mentioned that that was an occasion when you were driven by
9 the JNA in a convoy to their headquarters, and I believe --
10 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Gosnell. Could I go back to the answer
11 to your last question.
12 The -- sir, you said that you were told you were going to meet
13 Mr. Hadzic. When you entered the office, you plural, entered the office,
14 you greeted him as Mr. Hadzic. Did he confirm that that's who he was, or
15 did anybody else in the room identify him after you entered as
16 Mr. Hadzic?
17 THE WITNESS: Sir, when you shake hands, say, Mr. Hadzic, I
18 thought there is no need for him to say, Yes, I am Hadzic. He did not.
19 But it was clear and we introduce ourselves personally and our duties to
20 Mr. Hadzic.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sorry.
22 Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
23 MR. GOSNELL:
24 Q. You drove in a convoy and I believe that you said that this was
25 during the curfew at night-time. Do you remember that testimony?
1 A. Yes, we did not drove through the convoy. We were escorted, our
2 cars were escorted through the camp, forest, into the boat.
3 Q. Can you first of all just tell us how long that drive was,
5 A. Maximum 20 minutes to the camp.
6 Q. Did you have to pass through any gates or sentries or roadblocks
7 when where you were originating and where you ended up?
8 A. I don't recall that we were stopped before the camp itself but we
9 were stopped in the entry of the camp.
10 Q. Do you remember that when you crossed the bridge towards
11 Bogojevo, that is the bridge at Erdut, was there a JNA check-point there?
12 A. Not when we were up -- had the appointment with -- we never been
13 stopped. We stopped other occasions along the road to Dalj or Osijek.
14 But we --
15 Q. Just to clarify my question. I'm referring to when you would
16 pass from Serbia into Croatia.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. At Erdut. Did you pass through a JNA check-point on either side
19 of the bridge?
20 A. There is no bridge from Erdut to Osijek.
21 Q. I was referring to the bridge between Erdut and Serbia.
22 A. Oh. Of course, of course. Eastward. Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes.
23 The term [indiscernible] was yes.
24 Q. And, sorry, I'm not sure I got your answer. Were there JNA
25 check-points on either side of that bridge?
1 A. Can I think? There was check-points. Whether, it's good
2 question whether it's JNA or -- on that bridge crossing to Serbia, I
3 believe it was either JNA, most probably yes, or police.
4 Q. And can you describe for us, please, the -- what you witnessed,
5 what you observed during this occasion which I imagine was one of the few
6 occasions when you were out at night during the curfew.
7 Well, first of all, let me confirm that. Is it true that that
8 was one of the first occasions when you were moving around after the --
9 during the curfew?
10 A. Meaning going to the meeting with -- with the boat?
11 Q. Just to be clear, my first question is, is it true that this was
12 perhaps the only occasion when you were moving around in the territory
13 during the curfew which, as we know, was from dusk to dawn?
14 A. I said earlier in this Court that one of the meeting were in the
15 night, late, and other two meetings were in between the day and night.
16 We -- not totally dark.
17 Q. Let's -- let's be clear here. I'm talking about your testimony
18 when you said you drove in cars that had their lights out and you went
19 and visited the JNA boat?
20 A. Correct, correct.
21 Q. All right. Is that the only occasion when you were driving
22 around or when you were moving around in the territory during your ten
23 days in Sector East, at night-time.
24 A. The first meeting was really late, in the dark. Other two
25 meetings were something like between 7.00 to 8.00, and initially it was
1 not so dark, but we -- we moved three times. One time through really the
2 curfew and the blackout.
3 Q. Just about those second and third times, did you perceive that
4 the curfew was in effect when you travelled on those two occasions
5 between 7.00 and 8.00 p.m.?
6 A. When we make appointment with the general, and we are escorting
7 to the general, there is no curfew. We are not restricted. We are
9 Q. I fully understand that, sir. I'm just trying to understand
10 whether on the second and third occasion, you were escorted by - am I
11 correct? - JNA vehicles?
12 A. Correct. Approaching the camp.
13 Q. And was the reason that they escorted you because otherwise you
14 were prohibited to move around at that time?
15 A. In entering the camp, was by, itself, restricted.
16 Q. But I'm not now referring to inside the camp. I'm referring from
17 your journey from wherever you originated from, whether it's UNPROFOR
18 Sector East headquarters or whether it was your house, did you have an
19 escort in the JNA for the -- that interval of your journey?
20 A. Not in the middle of the village, not from our headquarters. JNA
21 did not risk approach our -- would be escorted on the way to the camp.
22 Q. So between 7.00 and 8.00 p.m., is it your testimony that between
23 7.00 and 8.00 p.m. you were not required on those two occasions in any
24 event to have an escort?
25 A. I didn't say that. I did not say that we are not required to
1 have an escort. The escort took place anyway in the camp, approaching
2 the camp, in the camp, anyway, on the three occasions. But in the dark
3 area, was more necessarily to be escorted.
4 Q. Let me just put it this way. Did you think there was -- the
5 curfew was in effect when you travelled on the second and third occasions
6 to the JNA camp?
7 A. I think it's -- it's -- it's still early in the evening, and I --
8 I -- I think that we could -- we could manage with -- somehow manage. I
9 mean, I -- this should be a question addressed to the sector commander in
10 the civil police who took care of those businesses. I was taken to meet.
11 I was not arranging the escorting and transportation and logistic.
12 Q. And on the second occasion, or excuse me, on the first occasion,
13 that was late at night --
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. -- is it -- was it the case that the streets were deserted?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. No people walking, no cars travelling.
18 A. I -- I know -- I remember that it's curfew time. Of course,
19 there is the militia is moving there. Police moving there. But not
20 much -- you know, if you drove, you walked through Ilidza -- through
21 Erdut, sorry. Even day-time, you don't see much people, and then we did
22 not see much people around the streets.
23 Q. Didn't the police tell you that they were also prohibited from
24 moving around during the curfew?
25 A. Meaning the local police?
1 Q. Correct, the local police.
2 A. I don't recall that, no.
3 Q. Well, yesterday during your testimony, you said at 6473:
4 "And we never verified clearly who's enforcing but that the civil
5 police deny any access or any control over this or anything to do with
7 That's what you said yesterday --
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Is that correct?
10 A. I [indiscernible]. I insist on it.
11 Q. So you confirm that the police did tell you that they were
12 prohibited from moving around during the curfew?
13 A. Not on those words. They told me we have no access, we cannot
14 control those people, and they cannot be on -- on the places where those
15 people acting, whether it is because they are ordered not to be there or
16 because the curfew or because other reasons. I did not mention the
18 Q. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that they told you that
19 they had no access. Didn't you understand that to mean that they
20 considered that they were prohibited from moving around during the
22 A. Could be.
23 Q. And other than the three occasions when you travelled back and
24 forth to the JNA camp, was there any other occasion when you were moving
25 around when the curfew was in effect?
1 A. Yeah. I don't recall.
2 Q. Did any of your colleagues, according to what you heard, ever try
3 to evade the curfew? Did they ever go out at night?
4 A. First of all, there's no where to go out in that night. But,
5 secondly, I don't recall that my colleague, at least Lubins, left their
6 apartments during the curfew. I know that Mr. Zitterman, civil police,
7 lived down the street beyond our areas, and I have no idea whether he was
8 able to move or not.
9 Q. Did you hear any official of the JNA describing the curfew?
10 Anything at all about the curfew?
11 A. We complained. No answer. We complain. We said, This is not
12 right, to the JNA.
13 Q. Did those officials confirm to you that there was a curfew in
15 A. JNA, at large, try to deny any policy or activities or practices
16 on that issue. Say we're outside. This is to the local authorities
17 [indiscernible] either police authorities and the local authorities made
18 those arrangements. JNA denied that has any -- anything to do with this.
19 Q. Are you saying that they denied there was a curfew that they had
21 A. I did not say that. I said they had nothing to do with whatever
22 is happening in that territory, night or day-time.
23 Q. Did you hear or see any instances of the JNA present at
24 night-time controlling the roads? And, of course, in this case you will
25 have to rely on those three occasions that you describe that you were out
1 at night.
2 A. Between our place to the entro at the camp, we see no JNA.
3 Q. And that's a very short distance, isn't it?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. All within the outskirts of Erdut, isn't it, both where you were
6 originating from and the camp?
7 A. The camp is closer to -- what they call it -- Dalj. Down the
8 road on the way to Osijek but the east side of the road.
9 Q. And most of the intimidation and terrorisation of Croat civilians
10 was taking place at night, wasn't it?
11 A. Most probably. For instance, in -- in the bridge, Beli Manastir,
12 I saw the bullying those families, day-time.
13 Q. Well, I'm not sure why you need to rely on probabilities. Isn't
14 it the case, from what you know, that most of the harassment and
15 intimidation was going on at night-time?
16 A. This I wrote and testified that this is the case, but you ask me
17 if I have seen in the day-time. I did decide Marinci. I said on the
18 bridge of Beli Manastir I saw militia pushing those families, dominating
19 them during day-time, not night-time. Most of the reports that we have,
20 we have on raids at night-time.
21 Q. And that's why Croat civilians and individuals were so terrified,
22 isn't that correct, because of these acts of intimidation and
23 terrorisation that occurred at night?
24 A. This is how we were told by them.
25 Q. They told you that?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And is it your view that the JNA was co-operating with those who
3 were engaging in those acts of night-time terrorisation and intimidation?
4 A. As eye-witness I did not see that -- see that night-time or
5 day-time. Except for Marinci, the tank that was roaming around while the
6 people were deporting the Croats, and then to our surprise to see the
7 general coming to the spot where they left the buses. We were extremely
8 surprised because JNA did claim that they had nothing to do with it. But
9 I confronted him with the tank and he said he will investigate it.
10 Q. I'm not --
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Excuse me -- sorry. Just before this leaves the
12 screen, at page 88, line 21, the sentence in the middle says:
13 "I did decide Marinci..."
14 And I'm not sure if the word -- if the verb "decide" is correct.
15 Maybe you can have that clarified.
16 MR. GOSNELL:
17 Q. Do you see there on the screen what my learned friend was
18 referring to? Perhaps you can tell us what you said?
19 A. Just before the [indiscernible], that is not -- the statement in
20 the middle says I did decide? What do you mean I did decide Marinci?
21 Q. Well, let's just move on and say that it's a question mark for
22 the transcript.
23 Am I right, Mr. Abd El Razek that --
24 MR. GOSNELL: Unless the Prosecution insists on ...
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, since we're dealing with -- I mean, it's
1 fresh right now. Maybe you want to pose a question to -- just on that
3 MR. GOSNELL: I'll try. I'll try.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I know what the witness said but I don't want to
5 say it.
6 MR. GOSNELL: I didn't hear it so I can't say.
7 Q. But Mr. Abd El Razek, you see the context in the transcript
8 there. Can you tell what you think you may have said when you were
9 referring to Marinci?
10 A. I said about the tank that we saw the tank roaming around when --
11 particularly when after the ambulance brought those two ladies and then
12 we saw the JNA tank with the soldiers on top of the tank and then we -- I
13 complained to the general and referred to these things that he said he
14 will investigate.
15 Q. The people from what you heard who were doing the terrorisation
16 and intimidation at night-time, were they well armed, according to what
17 you heard?
18 A. You cannot shoot horses without arms. And shooting at the
19 houses, windows, doors, and then if they are the same people or not, I
20 cannot tell, but I saw them during day-time armed to their teeth.
21 Q. Did the police tell you leaving, aside the issue as to whether
22 they were permitted to go out in the curfew, did the police tell you that
23 they were afraid to conduct patrols at night?
24 A. They said two things: (a), they had no control over those; and
25 (b), not afraid but they are -- they preferred not to deal with them.
1 They cannot deal with them. They are not authorised to deal with them.
2 Q. Let's look at your statement, 02789; Prosecution tab 5.
3 MR. GOSNELL: If we could please go to paragraph 20.
4 Q. "I could distinguish between the police and the militia by the
5 way they were -- they dressed and their behaviour. The police was
6 properly uniformed, professional, organised, and relatively disciplined,
7 but the militia was disorganised, undisciplined, chaotic, not
8 professional, wearing different kinds or mixes of uniforms. I recall the
9 regular police did not like the militia and did not want to be associated
10 with them."
11 Is that all correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And the police under the terms of the Vance Plan were only
14 permitted to carry side-arms; correct?
15 A. This is beyond my testimony. I cannot -- I don't recall that I
16 had this specific provision.
17 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 05928, please, which is P1385.1351.
18 It's Defence tab 74.
19 Q. And this is a situation report, Mr. Abd El Razek, coming up on
20 the screen, from Mr. Lubin to Mr. Thornberry.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And point 1 says:
23 "Sector East HQ has received several reports of civilian
24 population expulsions during last night."
25 Is it correct that there were expulsions that actually occurred
1 at night?
2 A. Of course. Mostly at night.
3 Q. Well, let me make sure that I'm clear -- we're clear on the word
4 "expulsion." Do you think that people were moved out at night or that
5 the -- merely the intimidation occurred at night?
6 A. Both, sir. There was intimidation during night-time, shooting,
7 and there were also -- that I did not witness. Also, we -- our reports
8 that we had that they were expelled at night-time.
9 Q. Down at the bottom:
10 "Under existing circumstances, situation cannot be controlled by
11 UNPROFOR. Expulsions are during darkness."
12 Let me first ask you and if you can't answer this question,
13 that's completely fine, do you understand that -- whether UNPROFOR's view
14 at this time was that they should and were entitled to undertake patrols
15 and to control the territory even at night?
16 A. My understanding --
17 Q. Sir, let me just finish my question.
18 That they were entitled to do that but that they simple didn't
19 have the forces available to do it at that time.
20 A. The official explanation of our behaviour, our -- our failure to
21 protect the civilians in those regions was officially the lack of
22 deployment, the lack of forces, lack of manpower, lack of contingencies,
23 they can do. However, we also complained that in our headquarter
24 particularly, we are -- we cannot move but that does not mean -- I mean,
25 if we were allowed to move, then we have the contingency to do it. We
1 have only seven soldiers or military personnel, or nine -- seven to nine
2 in the headquarter. Civil police we have two, three in -- in Ilidza too,
3 and in Dalj we have seven people or something like this. No matter what
4 we decide wether it is -- we are permitted or not, we could not handle
5 the situation. I think that major claim of lack of deployment was
6 physically a factualised right, but I have my own reservation on our own
7 position, the UN.
8 Q. It says:
9 "JNA is not controlling situation and local police do not make
10 night patrols."
11 A. I understand this.
12 Q. Is that the way it was at the time?
13 A. The civil police told us they are not going after those guys.
14 Not on those words, no patrol. You know, maybe this is Lubin concept
15 of -- the police told us that we cannot chase, cannot deal with those,
16 cannot go to them, et cetera.
17 Q. And did the local police seek your assistance in terms of
18 restoring order in Sector East?
19 A. I would not say that. I would not say that they seek our
20 assistance. They --
21 Q. Well, before you go on, sir, your answer is -- well, let me just
22 first of all, can you just answer that yes or no or do you think that you
23 need to give an explanation?
24 A. No, the answer, but I would like to give an explanation.
25 Q. All right. Go ahead, please.
1 A. They could not tell us that they need our help. They will be in
2 troubles. But they handed -- their hands are tied. They cannot do
3 things. And they hinted to us to go to other authorities in order to
4 help in this matter.
5 Q. Could we have P1389.1351, please.
6 This again is a situation report from Mr. Lubin on the 21st of
7 April, 1992.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Item 3:
10 "The meeting was the warmest yet, much open discussion, offers of
11 help, and no political lectures by them. Our appeal for an early-warning
12 system was well received as was our offer to have RusBat establish
13 presence after dark."
14 Does that remind you that in fact there were police officials who
15 were eager to have assistance, in particular, with providing security at
17 A. The way the sentence says -- makes sense. The way I understand
18 and communicate with the local police, they hinted mostly on their lack
19 of ability to act, that their hands are tied. And the fact that they
20 refer us to other authorities means they hinted, maybe, either we cannot
21 do, or please do. Go and -- other authorities to do?
22 Q. You say their hands are tied. Isn't it abundantly clear that
23 they -- given that they were facing armed individuals roving around at
24 night in a JNA-imposed curfew, it's not a question of their hands tied,
25 their hands are tied by someone, they simply are not capable --
1 A. Could be.
2 Q. -- to suppress those acts; correct?
3 A. Correct. I mean, either -- listen, either they don't want to do
4 or they cannot do. In both cases, they did not do.
5 Q. And you can't say which of those two is the case?
6 A. Hard. Difficult.
7 Q. Now I want to ask you some questions about the militia as you've
8 used the term. And you've described to us how you identified or
9 understood the militia, and you've told us, if I'm stating it correctly,
10 that they were individuals wearing a mix of uniforms, usually khaki, not
11 camouflage, sometimes wearing a beret, and sometimes wearing berets of
12 green or --
13 A. Red.
14 Q. -- red colour. Is that a correct summary of how you identified
15 the militia?
16 A. Then, yes.
17 Q. Was there anything else that would assist you -- and I should add
18 one more thing which you said, which was that you saw no insignias on
19 their uniforms, correct?
20 A. This is correct.
21 Q. Is there any other way that you were able to identify this group
22 that you identify as the militia?
23 A. A lot of arms, a lot of arms, hand-grenades, arms, bullets,
24 people are loaded with arms going free in the streets, nobody stopped
25 them. I saw them in -- in -- in -- in their compound, around in the
1 winery. They were not illegitimate -- illegitimate. I mean, seeing
2 them, a force, also the check post coming down, up, they can stop you
3 anywhere, when we came back from -- from -- from the crossing with the
4 general, they almost shot us.
5 Q. Would it be fair to say that almost every adult male in
6 Sector East possessed the clothing that you've described. I cannot say
7 that. I cannot tell you. If you know better than me, fine. But myself,
8 I do not -- I did not see every adult going around with so much arms
9 around his neck and body and hands.
10 MR. GOSNELL: Let's have 1307. Defence tab 142.
11 Q. Now this is considerably later, Mr. Abd El Razek. This is from
12 October 1992. It's an UNPROFOR weekly situation assessment, military
13 information section.
14 If we go to page 2 at the bottom --
15 A. Sorry, which section is that?
16 Q. It's the HQ UNPROFOR, mil info section.
17 A. Can you enlarge it, please.
18 Q. There, at the top of the page:
19 "About 70 per cent of civilian possessed" --
20 A. Can you enlarge it, please, a little bit, if it's possible.
21 Q. "About 70 per cent" -- well, perhaps we should just turn to the
22 previous passage at the bottom.
23 Now this is a report about Sector East.
24 A. Mm-hm.
25 Q. The only way to hinder terrorism is the disarmament --
1 A. Is this 4 or 5? 5? Paragraph 5?
2 Q. Under 5.
3 A. Under 5.
4 Q. "The only way to hinder terrorism is the disarmament and
5 disbandonment of the regional milicija. It has to be followed by
6 disarmament of all civilians and," and then if we can turn the page, "the
7 local milicija which is allowed to carry only side weapons."
8 And this is really the sentence that is important: "About 70
9 per cent of civilian possess weapons at home."
10 But would you agree that there was a wide -- following the war,
11 conflict, there was a wide distribution of weapons, including rifles
12 amongst the civilian population, correct?
13 A. If I to say that as eye-witness, I would say -- I did not say --
14 I not see a whole civilians going around with arms. If it is the
15 information that was running among our headquarters is the responsibility
16 of the -- the -- the author of this documents to testify. I cannot add
17 to their sitrep, and I believe that they will not -- trying to deceive
18 anybody or trying to lie, but this is not what I witnessed in Erdut and
20 Q. Did anyone advise you while you were in Sector East or before you
21 arrived about the status of, for example, JNA reservists? Did anyone
22 tell you that there was such a group of armed individuals who would be
23 present in Sector East when you arrived there or who were present when
24 you were there?
25 A. Not JNA. I mean the reserves. I was not inform -- or we were
1 inform, actually, that the JNA is not in charge of that -- that area. If
2 it's what you mean.
3 Q. When I use the term "JNA reservists," does that mean anything to
5 A. So they are not active soldiers. They are reservists, meaning
6 they are recruited when it's needed. If it's my understanding of the
7 reservist. In -- in the -- the people I saw in the camp, they're
8 soldiers. Whether they were reservists or active duty, this I could not
10 Q. Did anyone tell you that there was still an SFRY-declared state
11 of emergency in the territory of the SFRY during those ten days that you
12 were in Sector East?
13 A. I don't recall that I met with this concept.
14 Q. Did anyone tell you that there would be a group there called the
15 Territorial Defence?
16 A. This, I read. Nobody told me. We read with sitreps before that
17 in Belgrade. But I -- nobody said and tell me, This is the information
18 that you need to know. If this is satisfy you, but this is what I -- I
19 did. We read many things. Sitreps, not many things, but some sitreps
20 while in Belgrade. Some of those things were mentioned but I cannot say
21 that I witnessed.
22 Q. Were you able to distinguish between members of the Territorial
23 Defence and members of what you've described here as the militia?
24 A. I cannot tell.
25 Q. And the same answer, I presume, would follow for JNA reservists
1 who might be activated into service at a particular time, correct?
2 A. I could only identify soldiers. I don't know with insignia, with
3 uniforms, whether they were reservists or not, I have no idea.
4 Q. But what insignia did you distinguish between a JNA soldier and
5 the militia?
6 A. The militia do not have insignia, formal one. They have all kind
7 of things. Insignia no. Police they have and in army they have.
8 Q. Did anyone tell you that according to doctrine and law that all
9 armed forces in a zone of responsibility of the JNA are deemed
10 subordinated to the JNA? Did you know that?
11 A. Well, of course, the whole implementation or the cry for Vance
12 implementation is -- was to deal with this issue and to demilitarise and
13 to recreate cease-fire areas and to get the JNA out those areas. This
14 was the purpose of our stay in that -- of our deployment.
15 Q. Did you understand that it was the JNA's responsibility to disarm
16 the people whom you've described here as militia? Did you understand
17 that that was their responsibility under the Vance Plan?
18 A. Yes, sir. And I want to -- if I recall, if I may, one of the
19 things that we were telling the general in the boat that it is his
20 responsibility to stop those guys. And he was saying, We are out of the
21 area. We have no responsibility on those areas. Theoretically, they
22 were still to be held responsible.
23 Q. They weren't out of the area, were they? You still saw a
24 significant number of JNA forces in Sector East; isn't that right?
25 A. Not -- not significant numbers. They have from time to time, I
1 saw armed -- armed carriers, tanks. I saw them more on the -- crossing
2 the bridge to Osijek and in the camp, and most of the armed people I saw
3 during those ten days around our compound or the way to Baranja were not
4 JNA soldiers.
5 Q. But they were still driving around in APCs correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And tanks?
8 A. I saw once or twice tanks in Erdut.
9 Q. And in military vehicles of other descriptions; correct?
10 A. Of course, command cars, something else, yup.
11 Q. Who was it who told you that the militia was under Goran Hadzic's
13 A. I believe the civil police, the local police.
14 Q. Who precisely?
15 A. I don't know the name, but, you know, those are the guy who
16 communicate with us. The guy that he mentioned to us in my testimony
17 that they have no control over those guys. This is the guy who told us
18 that was the guys of Mr. Hadzic.
19 Q. Where was that policeman from?
20 A. I saw him locally. Where he is coming from, I have no idea. I
21 could not verify where he where he is come from, from locally, from
22 internationally, from Belgrade, I have no idea.
23 Q. Well, where did you meet him?
24 A. In our office.
25 Q. That would be the Sector East HQ in Erdut?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. GOSNELL: I do see the clock, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Abd El Razek, this is the end of the third
4 session. We will have another one at 3.00, from 3.00 to 4.30, so let's
5 consider this as a lunch break. The court usher will escort you out of
6 the court. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 2.00 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 2.59 p.m.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, how -- how are you progressing?
13 Just to know where we are going.
14 MR. GOSNELL: I very much hope to be done in 45 minutes.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 There's a short oral ruling in -- with regard to the Defence
17 motion to admit Exhibit 1D468 filed on 27th of June pertaining to a video
18 exhibit. Defence has stated in the motion that the Prosecution has
19 affirmed it has objection to the admission of the video.
20 Is that right, Mr. -- you don't know.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, no. Just for the record,
22 Mr. Stringer has left the courtroom.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We'll deal with it tomorrow morning.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.
4 MR. GOSNELL:
5 Q. Mr. Abd El Razek, is it possible that the person who told you
6 what Mr. Hadzic was the head of used the word "milicija" to describe what
7 he was the head of?
8 A. No. Milicija, we're talking about those arm -- those civilian
9 armed people who are rushing through the houses, night-time terrorising
10 civilians. He was not talking about police or policija or milicija.
11 Q. It's not possible you made a mistake about that given the fact
12 that yesterday you testified at 6470 that you would refer to the police
13 as policea and I assume you meant policija?
14 A. Policija or police, they're not militia. Milicija is different
15 than policija, and milicija is those armed - and we defined it yesterday,
16 I'm willing to redefine it today - those --
17 Q. Sir, you don't need to redefine it.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. But the only issue is is it possible, given that you would have
20 expected the word "policija" to refer to police, that the word "milicija"
21 was used in Serb and that you drew the inference that that meant militia
22 in English. Possibly you made that error. It's just that question.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, you've described the meeting that you had with Mr. Hadzic,
25 and you testified that there were a lot of people coming and going during
1 the meeting. And that's at page 6476. And then at page 3 of today's
2 transcript you say:
3 "There were armed people around and people come in and out almost
4 continuously, whispering to Mr. Hadzic or to handle paper or doing
6 Is that description of the meeting correct, that they were --
7 these people whom you described as militia coming in and out continuously
8 of the meeting and whispering in Mr. Hadzic's ear?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. Did, at any time Mr. Lubin say, Why are all these people coming
11 in and out continuously during our meeting?
12 A. I don't recall that we interfered in this.
13 Q. And your view is that these people who were coming in and out
14 whispering in Mr. Hadzic's ear, your view is that these were a group that
15 you describe as the militia?
16 A. Most of them, yes.
17 Q. Most?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Who wasn't?
20 A. Well, also civilians coming in and out. But I described the
21 armed people who greeting us in the entry and the corridor was then full
22 of them and then some of them would come in and out.
23 Q. Why couldn't the people who, assuming that anyone did come in,
24 why couldn't they just have been Mr. Hadzic's body-guards and not members
25 of this militia?
1 A. Could be. I -- I cannot -- I -- then those are the people I
2 describe as militia. Could be guard. Could be assistant. Could be
3 acquaintance. I had no any way to verify whether they were and their
4 relation with Mr. Hadzic.
5 Q. How were the police dressed in Sector East?
6 A. Like most police. I mean, with uniform, with jackets, insignia.
7 And their hats with insignia. With "police." And there is the sign
8 "police." This is the police.
9 Q. What colour uniforms?
10 A. Not totally khaki, not military, but police -- to a blueish, to a
11 blueish. Now I cannot totally remember, but they looked like police and
12 I met later on everywhere in former Yugoslavia police.
13 Q. And the people coming in and out of the meeting to whisper in
14 Mr. Hadzic's ear, do I understand you to have said that they were
15 sloppily dressed.
16 A. Not all of them. I said -- when I asked how I describe militia,
17 I said some of them looks like sloppily dressed. I did not define those
18 who came in the office in these descriptions. I saw militia outside, I
19 saw people with a really slumpy way dressed, with a lot of, of course,
20 arms. I don't recall that in the office of Mr. Hadzic we had those
21 loose, slumpy, I don't want to say filthy but not clean clothes. I don't
22 see them in this office.
23 Q. This is a 45 minute meeting between the president of the RSK
24 UNPROFOR, according to you. Doesn't at some point Mr. Hadzic get quite
25 upset that he is being continuously interrupted by these people coming
1 into the room?
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Was anyone controlling access to the room who was allowing these
4 people to come in and out?
5 A. We were escorted into his room. We were escorted in. And I was
6 not in the position to control who is controlling the rest of the people
7 into the office.
8 Q. Was there a secretary?
9 A. Not in -- in the -- in his office. We were escorted to his
10 office, to his desk. I don't recall seeing secretary.
11 Q. And yesterday at transcript 6477, you twice referred to the
12 theories of Lombroso.
13 A. Lombroso.
14 Q. Is what you were trying to say yesterday that they looked like
16 A. No. What exactly I was saying, I don't want to use the Lombroso
17 pattern of identifying people. I'm against Lombroso. I was in
18 criminology and one of the things that we were and still modern
19 criminology totally against Lombroso, and I wanted to say I don't want to
20 term to be a Lombroso saying this ear and this nose and describe in
22 Q. But that's what you thought. You don't want to express it but
23 that's what you thought; isn't that right?
24 A. No. I said it clearly I don't want to use the feature or the
25 nose or the eyes. It's not right. I look at those people on the eyes.
1 I look at people -- I worked with people later on, with those guys. I
2 never looked at their nose or ears to see if they really fitting the
3 pattern of criminals.
4 Q. Was Mr. Hadzic smoking during the meeting?
5 A. I don't recall. There was lots of smoke in that building. I
6 don't recall seeing him smoking or not smoking.
7 Q. From that or the other meeting or from any other information, do
8 you know whether he was a smoker?
9 A. No. I have no position to see if he smoke or not.
10 Q. Do you remember during your conversation with the Prosecution in
11 2012 you told them that you believed that Hadzic smoked cigarettes?
12 A. Maybe I said that, but I don't now recall that he smoke. The
13 smoke were everywhere. You cannot escape smoking then in former
14 Yugoslavia. Everywhere you go. I had to stop people smoking in the
15 meeting with the parliamentary. In the parliament I complained, and I
16 stopped complaining even. Terrible smoking. Whether Mr. Hadzic smoke or
17 not, I cannot verify but I remember there was a lot of smoke.
18 Q. And just to confirm this, am I correct that all three of you,
19 you, Mr. Lubin, and Mrs. Lubin all entered and departed the meeting
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Now I'd like to talk to you about the events at Marinci. And how
23 was it that you first learned that morning on the 20th that there was
24 going to be a population movement? Who came and informed you of that?
25 A. Civil police from Vukovar, I believe it was told maybe his
1 deputy, came to inform us about this willing of people who to reach and
2 he referred to our agreement with Mr. Hadzic that we should come and
3 verify that they are leaving on their own, voluntary.
4 Q. So the police wasn't hiding this from you, were they?
5 A. They were not hiding for me that they are leaving forcibly. They
6 were telling us there is group of people who want to leave and they want
7 us to witness that they are leaving voluntarily.
8 Q. And on many other occasions, the police, various police officers
9 had told you that these acts of intimidation were taking place at night,
10 in particular; correct?
11 A. I would not say many occasions. And some occasions. Not many
13 Q. How many occasions?
14 A. Well, I recall in -- in three cases with the police we either
15 approached them or they approached us -- it was mostly we approached
16 them, complained at them, civil -- our civil police, and they talked to
17 us about those occasions.
18 Q. Do I recall correctly that you said that you met in total the
19 police eight times?
20 A. In total, eight times.
21 Q. Yes. During that ten days that were in Sector East.
22 A. I don't recall that I said eight times, the police. I -- I'm
23 sorry --
24 Q. How many times did you meet the police during those ten days?
25 A. I -- in our headquarter I recall three times. And then the one
1 in the morning was a brief meeting. It was not a meeting. He was
2 calling us to come and...
3 Q. Now when you first had an opportunity to speak with the Croat
4 civilians who were getting ready to be transported, was it your
5 impression that at that stage, regardless of the reasons, at that stage
6 they were terrified and that they wished to leave?
7 A. I saw in their faces the fear. I saw the panic. I saw the
8 tears. Whether then they were convinced they want to leave or not, not
9 all of them -- one of them that I talked to, spoke to, at the beginning,
10 he was reserve, and then he told me that a night earlier, a night or two,
11 night, I think, three of his people were missing, and he want to leave
12 because he's afraid of his life -- on his life, he want to leave. Then
13 he was saying, Leave us alone. We want to leave.
14 Q. So they weren't happy about leaving but they felt at that stage,
15 given what had happened, that it was, from their perspective, a
17 A. You said happy or unhappy.
18 Q. They were not happy --
19 A. Not happy.
20 Q. But I'm saying that --
21 A. But at this stage they want to leave.
22 Q. Now I want to try and understand precisely the content of the
23 understanding or agreement that you thought you had as a result of the
24 meeting with Mr. Hadzic.
25 What -- what precisely, if you can enlighten us in detail, was
1 the content of the arrangement?
2 A. Well, we argued that those people will be forced to leave. The
3 counterargument is nobody is forced to leave. People are leaving on
4 their own. And when kept -- we kept arguing that we had, people talked
5 to us, we had information from civil police, from UNMO, that people were
7 Then we said okay. We agreed on an order to verify that those
8 people leaving on their own, we come to see the people, and some of them
9 they had forms even that I could not read, that they sign forms that they
10 are leaving voluntarily, that our duty as -- as civil affairs UN to see
11 that they are leaving freely.
12 This is the agreement without provisions or ...
13 Q. So part of the arrangement that UNPROFOR wanted was that those
14 being -- those who were leaving sign these forms, indicating that they're
15 doing so voluntarily. If not happily but at least indicating that
16 they're leaving voluntarily; correct?
17 A. I didn't say that we'll see to it that they sign those papers.
18 See to it to verify that they are leaving on their own voluntarily.
19 Whether they sign or not is a different story.
20 Q. But you were looking for such papers; is that not correct?
21 A. No, we were shown some papers.
22 Q. Let me clarify. When I say "looking," you expected such papers
23 to be in existence. Correct?
24 A. We expected that people tell us they are leaving freely because
25 also the barrier of the language, and it is written in -- in -- in
1 Serbian language, and we did not have the interpretation with us on that
2 -- that village. We wanted to talk to the people and they were not
4 Q. So you considered the existence of papers to be relevant to
5 assessing the voluntariness of their departure; correct?
6 A. If the signature was not forced.
7 Q. You see, the reason I'm asking you these questions because today
8 at pages 9 to 10 when you were talking about the loading of the bus and
9 the civilians leaving from Marinci, you said:
10 "We didn't see any papers, any signatures."
11 And then you said:
12 "I told them, the police, this is not what we agreed upon."
13 Now, that passage seems to indicate to me - and you can correct
14 me if I'm wrong - that an agreement had been reached, that anyone leaving
15 is going to sign a paper, and that you're going to have an opportunity to
16 check it.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that -- is that the substance of the agreement?
19 A. The substance of the agreement that we verified that they're
20 leaving of their own. The signature should be indicating that they are
21 freely signed that things. There is no way we can in advance say the
22 signature will cover all aspect of this freely.
23 Q. I'm not suggesting that for a moment, sir. But what I am saying
24 is that it appears, at least in respect of Marinci, that you were looking
25 for those documents as an indication. Is that right?
1 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... yes. I mean, we looking for any
2 verification that those guys were leaving freely.
3 Q. And the reason that I find that significant is that you've
4 already told us that you, having spoken to them --
5 A. To one.
6 Q. Spoken to one of the group, you already knew having, spoken to
7 that one person, that they were terrified. Didn't you already know that?
8 A. If you want me to be frank and open with you, you come to that
9 place, sir. I'm sorry that I'm addressing him [indiscernible]. You come
10 to this place and you see people shaking, crying, it's not impression
11 that those are people happy, standing there waiting for the limousine to
12 take them to a nice restaurant and music. They were shaking, crying.
13 Miserable. Believe me, my heart went out to them. And whether I --
14 whether they agreed or not agreed, this is what I saw on the ground, sir.
15 Q. I don't -- I'm not questioning what you saw and that observation.
16 But what I am asking is that having observed that, you were still
17 interested to see --
18 A. [Overlapping speakers]
19 Q. Some kind of written form --
20 A. No [overlapping speakers] --
21 Q. -- in which they -- which they had signed. Is that correct or do
22 I have the order wrong?
23 A. I did not ask this gentleman if he has a signed form or not. We
24 discussed with the people who guard those people, told them this, This is
25 not what we agreed on. This is not the agreement. The agreement is
1 orderly to see those people orderly express -whether it's by paper or
2 signature or not, I cannot recall - but express their wish and will to
3 leave on their own.
4 Q. So am I right that you raised this issue --
5 A. On the spot.
6 Q. -- on the absence of forms with the policemen, after you had
7 already spoken to the Croat civilian who wanted to leave?
8 A. I'm not sure that this is the order but definitely when we talked
9 to the police about the mess or the violation of the agreement, we told
10 them we agreed that those people will express, whether it's signing -- or
11 express for me was the express their wish to leave freely.
12 Q. You see, the reason why I'm asking you about the sequence of
13 events, I do understand what you're trying to express, but at the
14 transcript today at page 8 at the end you do describe your conversation
15 with the one Croat individual who told you ultimately that he did wish to
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And then you describe going to the bus with the others. And then
19 it appears from your description that it was at the bus that you raise
20 the issue of the absence of forms with the police. Is that the sequence
21 that you can recall?
22 A. I never, in the bus, discuss it with those guards because they
23 were not with us in the bus, sir. We discuss it on the ground. Before
24 we left the bus.
25 Q. Well, I don't say that you were in the bus with them, but what
1 you say is:
2 "I approached a police" --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And let me go back and read the whole passage.
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. "By then we have --"
7 And this is at page 9:
8 "By then we have a total of 21 people. We didn't see any papers,
9 any signatures, that while -- while sitting back on that small waiting
10 place, I approached a police. I told them, This is not what we agreed
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. So I just want to ascertain: Is the part that you did not think
14 was being complied with, the aspect that was not being complied with, was
15 it the fact that you didn't have forms signed by the -- by the Croat
17 A. I would say no. I would say that we, Andersson and myself, we
18 understood immediately the crime and the scene that those guys, sorry,
19 gentlemen and ladies, those people are leaving not on their own, and if
20 it's not on their own, like the gentleman that I talk with, it was
21 fait accompli. It was not something that we could do anything with. And
22 then themselves, I don't believe except for that woman if you read my
23 earlier testimony, she was holding the bed, holding the door, holding
24 this not to leave the house. The ones that were on the ground, we had an
25 impression and through the talk of the -- a gentleman that, at this
1 point, they're going to leave. Whether they signed paper or did not sign
3 Q. In respect of those who are intent on leaving but who have been
4 unlawfully intimidated into leaving, was it UNPROFOR's policy and was it
5 your understanding that you should not allow those people to leave?
6 A. I did that again in Bosnia, and I was really told that it is
7 against, if you help the civilian to leave, against the rules of UNHCR,
8 United Nations High Commission for Refugees, I still, I told
9 Mr. Goulding, I sent him reply, I'm telling you here, I'm telling you
10 your majesty, your excellency, there are certain circumstances I learn in
11 my life, better kick out than killed. I help people at certain points
12 crossing out of their areas in order to protect in terms of their life.
13 I don't -- I never regret it.
14 Q. Now the individual who you saw who was attempting to force an old
15 lady out of her house, you described him as being a civilian in a
16 semi-military uniform at page 9.
17 Why did you describe that person in that way rather than just
18 saying, This was a person who was a part of the militia?
19 A. To meet your request, sir, to meet your complaint, sir. I don't
20 want to be obsessed with the term "militia." I still don't want to be
21 obsessed with this. I know a civilian who wore semi-uniforms, who arms
22 or has a police belt with -- with -- with arm -- army grenades, with
23 bullets, with machine-guns, with a green or red beret. In this sense, I
24 think it was a green beret -- not -- sorry. Not green beret. I describe
25 him as a person, this description. I have no problem calling him
1 militia, if you wish.
2 Q. And was this incident occurring within eyesight of the place
3 where the JNA tank was?
4 A. No. The ambulance was -- not this incidents. The tank, later on
5 we drove not far from there. We stop by an ambulance, medical ambulance
6 with two ladies, one of them handicapped. While loading those two
7 ladies, I saw the tank. Not while protecting the woman in the house.
8 The JNA tank.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, one -- one second, please.
10 Mr. Abd El Razek, you seem to correct yourself about the colour
11 of the -- of the beret. Green, red. Do you know or don't you remember?
12 THE WITNESS: I cannot say I can swear that it's red or green.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: This is my impression.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: No problem.
16 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. This...
19 MR. GOSNELL:
20 Q. And the policemen with whom you were discussing the issue of
21 the -- at -- where you confronted or came across the ambulance, now what
22 was it that you precisely were suggesting he had not done properly or
23 that -- what aspect of the agreement, in your view, he had not fulfilled?
24 A. May I correct you, sir? I did not say I saw the police or
25 discussed with the police with ambulance incidents. The only talks with
1 the police were on the sides and that we protested. Once we loaded the
2 bus and drove the bus, there was no police with us. The ambulance is
3 when we start loading the people. Andersson and myself told the guy or
4 the gentleman, the person this is not right, et cetera, et cetera. But
5 while in the bus, and we drove, first of all, followed this gentleman --
6 or this armed person to push the woman out. There was no police in that
7 section. That section, no. And the ambulance was after the incidents
8 with the woman.
9 Q. You're saying no police witnessed this event with the --
10 A. Ambulance.
11 Q. -- with the person wearing semi-military clothing?
12 A. No. Except our civil police, of course. Andersson.
13 Q. Now I just want to show you two JNA documents. There are others
14 but I won't show you those.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Can we have 06072, please. This is Defence
16 tab 295.
17 Q. Now, this is a document which I understand from the Prosecution
18 is dated the 13th of January, 1992. At least according to the
19 description that's uploaded. And if we could turn the page -- well,
20 first of all, does that reflect what you recall the layout of the street
21 plan of Marinci to have been?
22 A. You got me on this now. We came from Vukovar, we drove through
23 main road, we stop in the office, we go to that road to the end, we saw
24 those people, and we drove back to Osijek. The layout of the village,
25 beyond me, I'm sorry. I cannot say that.
1 Q. Can you recall if there was a Territorial Defence headquarters or
2 did anyone say that?
3 A. No. We went into that office they called the head of the village
4 office. Not military, not the police office. This was a civilian place.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Could we go to page 4 of the document, please. In
6 English. And I'm interested in item 7 -- well, we can go to page -- yes,
7 item 7.
8 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, can you tell me what date is that?
9 MR. GOSNELL:
10 Q. My understanding is it's the 13th of January, 1992.
11 Number 7, Ivo Kelic ran off and joined the ZNG. All his
12 belongings are in the house."
13 Now, sir, I know you haven't seen this document, but you have
14 mentioned that houses were targeted.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Those houses of non-Serbs. Did you ever hear that the JNA had
17 undertaken an inventory or a survey of houses to determine who was Croat
18 and who was Serb?
19 A. I haven't seen document. Somebody was mentioning that. It was
20 not in my main -- main interests or main document or main testimony. I
21 heard that, but I cannot verify.
22 Q. And leaving aside ethnicity, did they -- did you hear that they
23 were tracking who had gone and joined the ZNG?
24 A. This only by hearing from others, but not knowing, I have no
25 knowledge serious knowledge of this.
1 Q. Did you know that they had taken a comprehensive survey of houses
2 in the settlements where they had town commands?
3 A. No, I did not. I -- I think that, you know, those -- one of
4 those documents on one of those issues was raised in Security Council.
5 That I don't recall which meeting of Security Council. That was in the
6 air. But I cannot tell that I myself in those times was -- had any
7 access to these things.
8 Q. Could we have 06179, please, which is P1718.
9 Now, this, sir, is a JNA document dated the 25th of April, and it
10 specifically refers, I think, to the events that you witnessed. And in
11 paragraph 3, and, for the record, this is from
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Filipovic.
13 A. Okay. Who ...
14 Q. Appears to be from the 1st Mechanized Corps based in Principovac.
15 Paragraph 3 says:
16 "Specific examples were provided of two villages around Vukovar
17 and Marinci village emphasising that this was perpetrated by armed bands
18 and that this was happening regardless of the warning from the head of
19 the UN to Borislav Jovic and their talks with JNA representatives."
20 Now let me just stop there. Why are the protested or the talks
21 regarding this incident taking place with Mr. Jovic and with JNA
22 representatives, if you know?
23 A. Because the general showed himself on the crossing area to our
24 all surprise. If he shows himself on the -- on the deportation or
25 expelling area while those people were expelled, regardless of who if he
1 decided or is under control or if he -- the one order it, he is the
2 highest or was the highest rank and the highest one to be responsible for
3 what happens, regardless if his people did that or other people did.
4 Being in the region, the general rank with the buses giving to the
5 Columbian driver to move into Osijek, and prior to that a tank, a JNA
6 tank, how you could overlook their involvement in this.
7 Q. And is it also because the JNA had signed the Geneva agreement
8 which was the foundation for the Vance Plan?
9 A. I guess so. I mean, of course.
10 Q. Did you understand that to be the case, that the JNA was a party
11 with whom you as UNPROFOR had to deal because they were specifically a
12 party to the Geneva agreement and the Vance Plan?
13 A. Any agreement, sir, between countries, peoples, regions, will be
14 the officials -- with whom the officials of those agreement.
15 The UN normally with Geneva Convention and Geneva agreements and
16 all kind of agreements will be UN as the hosting party and the fighting
17 parties will be the parties to the agreement. My understanding then that
18 in the Security Council deliberation, the representative of the former
19 Yugoslavia, the ambassador in UN, was leading the deliberation of those
20 agreements with and through the UN Security Council president. JNA was a
21 major party to those agreements.
22 Q. And it says:
23 "They also expressed," and by "they" they're referring to whoever
24 was there on behalf on UNPROFOR, "also expressed amazement and a lack of
25 understanding of how it armed bands could get by JNA centuries and that
1 centuries did not check whether the people were leaving voluntarily."
2 Now this reference to "centuries" I can only assume is a
3 reference to "sentries." Did you provide information up the chain of
4 command in UNPROFOR that there were sentries at Marinci when this
5 displacement was taking place?
6 A. I did not, myself.
7 Q. But you did know that they crossed -- when they crossed into
8 Croatia, they did pass through a JNA check-point; right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Now, am I right in understanding your testimony that some members
11 of UNPROFOR actually drove the buses across the confrontation line?
12 A. Unfortunately, yes.
13 Q. How did that occur?
14 A. That -- the Serbian drivers of the buses refused to take the
15 buses to Osijek, Kiseljak knowing that they will be arrested, and
16 somehow - I don't recall and I was not because I was rushing to the
17 headquarter - somebody convinced our UNMOs, our Columbian UN soldiers to
18 drive the buses and they did. I cannot judge it today. I cannot pass
19 judgement on this, but I think it was a mistake to drive them by UN
20 drivers. And I -- I can pledge of those people that I have -- they did
21 it out of respect and trying to help the people, not knowing that they
22 are really not doing well for the agreements and for the entire
23 enterprise of UNPROFOR.
24 Q. If UNPROFOR was opposed to their transportation out of the area,
25 shouldn't those Columbians have been ordered not to participate in this?
1 A. I don't know by whom, sir. I'm telling you, on the ground, that
2 area we have UNMOs, United Nations Military Observers, and there's the
3 police of Dalj, not all of them there, the people who were on the ground
4 were very low rank, devoted, committed UN soldiers but not knowing
5 exactly. If I were them, then maybe but now definitely I would refuse to
6 do it. But you cannot -- I cannot put myself in their shoes. I cannot
7 judge or pass judgement on them. It was our fault. It was not good for
8 UNPROFOR, not was good for our images, and the Croats made it clear loud
9 on the TV all over, sir, all over Croatia and western Europe, all over
10 was this news that UNPROFOR is helping the ethnic cleansing and Lubin was
11 the first to be then accused. They skipped my name as [indiscernible].
12 Q. Mr. Abd El Razek, bad publicity is one thing. Wasn't it
13 perfectly humane for UNPROFOR in the specific circumstances that you
14 confronted in respect of those individuals at Marinci, wasn't it
15 perfectly humane to assist those people to leave under the
16 circumstances --
17 A. Yes, I --
18 Q. -- circumstances that were not within UNPROFOR's control and
19 circumstances that are not desirable? But nevertheless under the
20 circumstances, wasn't it a humane and appropriate action to facilitate
21 their departure?
22 A. I cannot agree more with you, sir, and I think -- I think this
23 morning I mentioned that the discussion with Andersson on the spot, we
24 thought we better escorted those people, preserve some of their dignity,
25 integrity to wherever the buses will take us. I'm not sure that this was
1 legally -- not in the sense of the legal implication of the agreement was
2 good, but I never regret this thing. Until today, I'm willing to stand
3 for this action.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have P380, please. This is Prosecution
5 tab 28.
6 Now, you testified earlier about the re-painting of certain
7 military equipment to --
8 A. One.
9 Q. -- have it appear as police equipment. Do you remember that
11 A. One.
12 Q. Sorry.
13 A. Only one vehicle, that's all.
14 Q. Only one vehicle?
15 A. Yes. Later on we have more information, but the ones that I saw
16 I saw only one.
17 Q. And this document in front of us is from the command of the
18 12th Corps, and the signature -- the signatory is Mr. --
19 General Biorcevic, and this document appears -- it's dated 27th of April,
20 1992, so that's after the period that you were in Sector East, and this
21 appears to be the order that is authorising the transfer of military
22 equipment or the re-painting of military equipment. Are you sure that
23 you saw a re-painted vehicle prior to the issuance of this order?
24 A. I'm sure that you have enough experience, sir, to understand the
25 approval or legal approval of a project is not always coming before the
1 production line. But I seen, as I seen, when they legalize it or order
2 it, many things that reordered came back or came later on. Is not the
3 first things that documents and orders cover up for the things that they
4 did earlier. This is my impression. And anyway ...
5 Q. And one final question and it's taking you back to the -- to
6 your -- where you were based in Erdut. You said that there was a wood or
7 a forest nearby. Do you remember that, saying that?
8 A. Forest by where? By the boat? By the boat is not Erdut. It is
10 Q. So that's where the forest was?
11 A. The camp was covered by forest. But in our area where I -- I
12 stayed in Erdut, there were ruins and some trees but not forest.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 Q. I just have one more question for you, sir.
15 When you were in Marinci and you spoke to the group of Croat --
16 the one Croat individual in the group, were you accompanied by an
18 A. No.
19 Q. And how did you manage -- I assume you don't speak --
20 A. No.
21 Q. -- Serbian?
22 A. No. Ask the question and the person answered.
23 Q. They responded to you in English?
24 A. He answered me in English, yes, sir.
25 Q. Thank you very much --
1 A. I have no interpreter then. Thank you.
2 Q. And do you have any idea the name of this person you spoke to?
3 A. Definitely not, unfortunately.
4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Abd El Razek.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Abd El Razek.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, before I begin, I sent an e-mail
11 to my learned friend and to the Trial Chamber with respect to a series of
12 four photos which Dr. Abd El Razek gave us a few days ago. Initially I
13 did not intend on using them, however, in light of the answers he gave us
14 this morning, to assist him in identifying the name of the sector
15 commander, I would seek leave to add these photos to assist him again.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you get a reaction from the Defence,
17 Mr. Demirdjian?
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I did not at this stage, Your Honours. And just
19 to clarify it, I will not seek to tender them.
20 MR. GOSNELL: There's no objection to that Mr. President.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much. These photos are at
23 65 ter 6469. We will look at them a little later.
24 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, this morning, my learned friend from the
25 Defence put to you that you were not based in Erdut during the time --
1 your time in that area. Do you recall that question?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Thank you. Could we please look at the following document. It
4 is Exhibit P1384.1351, at tab 15.
5 Now, Dr. Abd El Razek, I'm not interested in the substance itself
6 or the topic but this document is drafted by Mr. Lubin and sent to
7 Mr. Thornberry on the 17th of April, 1992.
8 And it -- it deals with issues in Beli Manastir but this is not
9 what I'm interested in. But I want you to look at paragraph 2. If you
10 look at the eighth line, line number 8 which starts with: "Constant
11 monitoring ..."
12 A. "[Indiscernible] therefore Adnan Abd El Razek will accompany..."?
13 Q. Yes. Can I ask you to read that sentence out loud starting with
15 A. "... therefore Adnan Abd El Razek will accompany me to -- re meet
16 the local officers preparatory to my location locating him in
17 Beli Manastir by weekend for as long as it takes for situation to calm,
18 realise that we cannot cover sector from headquarter, used some staff
19 will -- with periodically have to stay with battalions to establish
20 UNPROFOR credibility and ease local tensions."
21 Q. Thank you. When he writes "we cannot cover sector from HQ,"
22 which HQ is he talking about?
23 A. Erdut HQ.
24 Q. Very well. And when he talks about the fact that some staff will
25 periodically have to stay with battalions, which battalions is he
1 referring --
2 A. The Belgian Battalion there Beli Manastir.
3 Q. Very well. And finally when he writes that he will go to meet
4 local officials there, preparatory to my locating him in Beli Manastir,
5 what does this document suggest about where you were stationed until
7 A. Of course, in Erdut.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Mr. President, may I comment on this? Is it possible?
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
11 Q. If it could assist --
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: If necessary, Mr. Abd El Razek, and if relevant.
13 THE WITNESS: I highly appreciate this Court. I respect you and
14 your team. I did not want to then reply to the provocation that
15 obviously that I was not that entire testimony -- entire ten days that I
16 went to that region were hoax or I was not there. I too much respect
17 this Court to answer it in my own way. In any case, there's records of
18 the UN staff where they station everywhere, and this Court can order
19 somebody to request the UN to show the records and also where I stayed
20 overnight on this place.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
24 Q. Now, you explained today that in the Erdut headquarters, the
25 battalion commander was -- was stationed there. And yesterday, if I
1 understood you right, you explained that the sector commander would from
2 one of the national contingents present on the ground.
3 Did I understand you correctly?
4 A. I -- I think I told you Sunday --
5 Q. Yesterday in the courtroom at page 6463.
6 A. Yeah. But prior to that Sunday I noticed that it was said
7 that -- the chief of battalion, and I corrected, it's not the commander
8 of the battalion who was in Erdut but the sector commander, the Belgian
9 sector commander.
10 Now I want to elaborate on. Any headquarters of sectors will
11 contain people who represent mostly the battalions in that sector. The
12 biggest battalion then, and almost I think they are the only battalion,
13 platoon they were battalion -- but battalion, the only battalion was the
14 Belgian Battalion in Beli Manastir, and the chief of the -- the -- the
15 commander, sector commander, the chief of the sector the Belgian chief
16 due to the fact that this battalion was stationed in Beli Manastir.
17 Q. Who -- who was the -- do you remember him by name, the sector
19 A. If you look at the photo that I -- I took with him in the back of
20 the photo, there's his name.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we perhaps display it now. This is
22 65 ter 6469. Can we go to page 3, please. Very well.
23 Q. Can you tell us, Dr. Abd El Razek, what we're looking at here.
24 A. The far left, this is the commander. Myself in the middle. And
25 to my left, the far right in that photo, is the Chief of Staff. Both
1 names are behind that photo.
2 Q. And can you help us with where this picture was taken?
3 A. This is the section -- two sections got into the compound. One
4 is the military, all the equipments, and this one here is our building.
5 This is in front of their building. This setting would be typical when
6 we are too cold inside go up a little bit in the sun to warm up before we
7 go back to the -- to the internal.
8 Q. Very well.
9 A. There is the entry of the military office.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And can we now go to the next page.
12 Q. And what are we -- what are we looking at here, Dr. Abd El Razek?
13 A. Yeah. This is Venderwee, Venderwee, sector commander, and then
14 up Strilo -- Strivlink [phoen]. I'm sorry, I'm not good on names, but
15 this was Chief of Staff.
16 Q. Okay. And where was this written?
17 A. On the back of the photo.
18 Q. On the back of the photo. So this is the back of the photograph
19 we were just looking at?
20 A. This is the back of the photo.
21 Q. So these are the two names that --
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Very well.
24 A. There was no need for my name on that towards the right.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We can take away the photograph.
1 Q. I'll move onto a different topic, Dr. Abd El Razek. This morning
2 you were shown some excerpts from your notebook, if you remember. Just
3 as a curiosity, do you have the original with you here in the courtroom?
4 A. I was yesterday told not to bring it. I mean, that -- my -- my
5 handwriting thing?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Well, I -- I played good boy and didn't bring it to the court,
8 but I have it in the hotel. Ironically, I am --
9 Q. That's fine. We'll try to do with the version we have in
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we pull up 65 ter 3110, please. And can we
12 please go to page 5.
13 A. This is the internal cover and external cover is -- is leather.
14 Q. Very well.
15 A. With my notes.
16 Q. Now at page 5 here you were shown this this morning by my learned
17 friend. This is a note you took with the header: Erdut, 12th of April.
18 Can we now go to page 6. Next page.
19 Now, at the bottom of this page you're recorded on the 13th of
20 April meetings with EC members. Can you see the last sentence at the
21 bottom of your notepad. It says:
22 "The witness occasions when" -- and the sentence --
23 A. "They witness occasion" -- well, I --
24 Q. Just --
25 A. I know -- I know what I mean. But, you know, I cannot swear that
1 this is true. But witness occasion when people were deported.
2 Q. Just a second. Before you come to any conclusions. If we scroll
3 all the way down you can see that the sentence does not end here. It
4 continues. Is that right? Okay?
5 A. I guess.
6 Q. So if we go to the next page which you were shown also today,
7 page 7. Here, the sentence does not continue. We see some names --
8 A. And then another page.
9 Q. Okay. So if we go to the next page --
10 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I'm going to object to the next
11 page. I didn't show the next page, didn't ask anything about the subject
12 matter that's about to be gone into, so it's beyond the scope of the
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: What I'm trying to get at, Your Honours, is that
15 there was an inference made during the cross-examination about the names
16 that we see now on page 7, and my learned friend made a relationship
17 between this page and the one we saw before. What I want to show is that
18 page 6 continues on page 8. And what we'd like to get to is what do we
19 see now here, who these names are. That's what I'm trying to get. So I
20 will not get into the subject matter. If that's what my learned friend
21 is worried about, I will not -- and I will stop the witness if we get to
22 that. I'm not interested in the subject matter of the notes.
23 MR. GOSNELL: And I have to maintain the objection, regrettably,
24 Mr. President, because what's on page 8 doesn't in my opinion have --
25 assist in understanding the relationship between page 7 and 6, and in
1 fact my questions concern the relationship between page 7 and both page 6
2 and 5. And that's the context where you see the connection. I don't
3 think the few words on page 8 are helpful and they're prejudicial.
4 So the objection is maintained, but I'm in ...
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Perhaps I have a compromise here. I'll try to
6 deal with page 7 without going to page 8. I'll look at -- I'll questions
7 about this, the page that we have in front of us without going to the
8 next, but if it becomes necessary I'll apply again to look at the next
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
12 Q. Dr. Abd El Razek, we're looking at this page here with names.
13 Does it follow from the previous page?
14 A. I'm not trying to be funny. But when you flip the papers and you
15 have something in your mind you write -- while are you writing a report
16 and you go back and use this page and that page. Remember, this is --
17 the whole thing is not in -- in a luxury office in Manhattan in the UN
18 building. This is done in a very unorganised place, and we -- apparently
19 I wanted -- the name of those guys, and the telephones. Why they are
20 speaking. I asked the name, I wrote, and then this page was with this.
21 I remember and -- you see that I -- I tried to illuminate this things,
22 and then I had a description of those.
23 I claim that this page should not seen in any way as interrupting
24 the page before and after. This is page -- I could -- unfortunately, I
25 didn't bring with me the things. If you see in the top -- in the first
1 page, something has nothing to do with the immediate meeting when we came
2 to -- to -- to Erdut. Something else. At one point, I had to write it.
3 I wrote. But ... well, it is in the hands of -- of -- of Their
5 Q. Now, just to be perfectly clear, if you are looking at your
6 notebook and you started writing the notes that we saw on the previous
7 page with respect to your meeting with the EC monitors, where does this
8 page appear? The one that we're looking at. Where is it. Is it in
9 the -- if you're looking at your notebook --
10 A. I don't have --
11 Q. Which you don't have here.
12 A. I don't have it.
13 Q. Do you know if it's in the immediate page, next page, or where is
15 A. With what? With a --
16 Q. What we're looking at here on the screen.
17 A. Go back to the first -- to the one before.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
19 MR. GOSNELL: I can see where we're going. I have no objection
20 if the Prosecutor wants to show the page after to assist with this line
21 of questions.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm afraid that unfortunately the original would
24 have helped.
25 Q. Let me just put it this way: What we're looking at, this page,
1 is it on the flip side of the previous page or is it on a separate sheet?
2 A. Those are the same -- the same paper and I -- this is the same
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Yeah, I -- you mean if I start -- I start taking the notes or
6 writing the notes?
7 Q. No, no, no. Let's go back to the previous page.
8 A. Okay.
9 JUDGE HALL: Perhaps, Mr. Demirdjian, it would assist the witness
10 if you to hold up a pad to show him what you mean, a pad that's bound in
11 the way that says -- I follow it, but the witness may have
12 difficulties -- yes.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Now I have a pad in front of me.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The page that we're looking at --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- would it be on this side or the next on this side, can you
19 tell me?
20 A. Ah, this is what you're asking for.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And perhaps if we could zoom up on this picture.
22 Can we zoom up a little bit.
23 THE WITNESS: Well, you have to --
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Zoom all the way up, please. All the way up.
25 Q. Can you see the binding? You see the binding --
1 A. The binding in the top?
2 Q. The spirals. Yes.
3 A. Yeah. And this is coming here.
4 Q. Okay. Now let's go to the next page.
5 A. And, yeah. It's again coming down, you know.
6 Q. Very well. Are you able to assist us? Unfortunately you don't
7 have your notepad. Whether we're looking at -- a page that is on the
8 flip side of what we saw before? Are you able to assist us in any way?
9 A. I'm sorry.
10 Q. I will live with this. Let me move on to another topic.
11 A. I'm too old handle those things.
12 Q. Today at page 79 of the transcript you told us there is not a
13 single -- no, sorry, you were asked by my learned friend, it was put to
14 you, in fact, that there is not a single reference in your notebook to
15 any transportation of civilians south of Erdut. And this was a reference
16 to anything like Vukovar, et cetera. Do you recall that question?
17 A. South of Erdut. Yes.
18 Q. This was the question put to you?
19 A. Correct. Correct. And then I talked about the north and he
20 corrected me and we went back to the south.
21 Q. Can I take you to page 12 which we looked at this morning. This
22 the 14th of April notes you mentioned earlier with respect to a meeting
23 with Croatian authorities in Osijek.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Do you see under item 2?
1 A. Hmm?
2 Q. Item 2.
3 A. Item 2, yes.
4 Q. "The safety of Croatians in the sector (expulsion). 48 Almas."
5 Then after some dates you have Erdut, 84 persons. Right?
6 At the bottom of this page, under item 4, the very last line --
7 A. Four, yeah.
8 Q. If we scroll all the way down.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. The very last line. Do you see that sentence that starts with:
11 "500 expelled from Vukovar"?
12 Now just very briefly can you tell the Court how did these
13 discussions come about.
14 A. Like we being complaining about the practices of -- of -- against
15 the civilians. When we came to -- this is -- came out of the meeting
16 with the civil police of Osijek. They listed their complaints. Those,
17 for instance, if you see 48 Almas, it is 8 of April. I was not there on
18 8 of April. And this 9 of April. 9 of April on. This information came
19 from that -- from -- in the meeting with those police and internal
20 minister not only police of Osijek. This -- those are not numbers that
21 we verified, [indiscernible] definitely not.
22 Q. This was conveyed to you by whom exactly?
23 A. By those we met, chief of police and deputy or something,
24 internal minister of Osijek.
25 Q. Thank you. There are two items from the transcript that I'd like
1 you also to clarify.
2 Today at page 88, you were asked the following question:
3 "Isn't it the case from what you know that most of the harassment
4 and intimidation was going on at night-time?"
5 You answered as follows -- in fact, the beginning of you answer
6 was indiscernible but then the following was recorded:
7 "I have seen in day-time, I did decide Marinci. I said on the
8 bridge of Beli Manastir, I saw militia in day-time not night-time."
9 So, Dr. Abd El Razek, this brings me back to the word "decide."
10 Can you help us here? The sentence was recorded as: "I did decide
12 A. Makes no sense. I did decide Marinci. Maybe I did so on
13 Marinci. Decide, definitely not. And to be fair with this question, I
14 said I saw on -- on the day-time but most of the things were happening in
15 the night.
16 Q. Very well. At page 92, you were talking about the manpower
17 available at the time in the area with respect to the UN. You said the
19 "Civil police, we have two, three, in Ilidza too, and in Dalj we
20 have seven people or something like this."
21 A. Not Ilidza. In Erdut.
22 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And the last topic --
23 A. I think that I said Ilidza and then I said Erdut. Ilidza is that
24 entry on into Sarajevo.
25 Q. Just wanted to clarify that. Thank you.
1 Finally, with respect to the last topic, you were asked by my
2 learned friend today about the forms which allege that the Croat
3 individuals left voluntarily. Did you see any of these forms at the time
4 when you were there during the 11 days that you were --
5 A. Oh, yes.
6 Q. -- based in the [Overlapping speakers] ...
7 A. Oh yes. I saw forms. But not -- not with those people in
8 Marinci. No, I saw form.
9 Q. And what did these forms say?
10 A. You know, it was not really totally translated, but there's a
11 name, description, and there is something. I saw also the signature.
12 Something saying that we want to leave or a simple question. I cannot
13 right now and today telling you exactly, but I know that there is
14 information about those applicants, and there is date and signature in
15 between. I cannot recall. But something that they agree to leave. I
16 mean, those forms will indicate that those people are voluntarily leave.
17 Q. And finally how did you view such document?
18 A. Well, we went to complain that we were [indiscernible] trust
19 those documents before or when are not present to verify them.
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, that is all I ask. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I have a clarification question of
25 you before I can put a question to the witness.
1 At 66:8, 9, and further down, it's about the meetings, or the
2 meeting, that the witness said he had together with Mr. Lubin with
3 Mr. Hadzic. And you asked him -- you asked the witness whether he had
4 seen and eventually his attention being drawn to the fact -- whether he
5 had seen the sit-reports made by Mr. Lubin on this occasion and whether
6 he had seen eventually that the Hadzic in the sit-report was not the
7 Hadzic he was talking about. This is at 66:13, 14, and 15.
8 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry, Mr. President, can I confirm it's page 66 of
9 the provisional transcript?
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's page 66 on my screen, yes. But it wouldn't
11 be the first time that I almost understood that our -- our numbers are
13 MR. GOSNELL: It does seem to be the same. I see the question.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now and then you asked to pull up a
15 sit-report of the 21st of April, in which, indeed, it is said that --
16 that -- where -- where mention is made of Dr. Hadzic. Witness responding
17 that that was after he left the region.
18 Now my question is -- because I tried to locate the sit-reports
19 of -- made by Mr. Lubin on the occasion of the meeting, or meetings, with
20 Mr. Hadzic. I couldn't find them. Could you assist?
21 MR. GOSNELL: It's, I believe, 65 ter 05932.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: 65 ter ...
23 Could we have that on the screen, please. Let's see whether we
24 can find the date. 21st of April as well.
25 Now that's -- that's the one -- that's the one you asked for. So
1 the -- there is -- there -- the witness said there were two meetings.
2 One with Mr. Lubin, three or four days before the 20th of April. So I
3 take it then that we don't have a sit-report on -- on that meeting from
4 Mr. Lubin? Is that correct?
5 MR. GOSNELL: I can't answer you with certainty now,
6 Mr. President. Not to my knowledge at the moment.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
8 So basically, then, this is the one you based your question on
9 that Mr. Lubin mentioned another Hadzic, namely, Dr. Hadzic; right?
10 That's the one, and that's the only one.
11 MR. GOSNELL: There's also P1390.1351.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have that one on the screen, please.
13 So this is from the day after, the 22nd.
14 MR. GOSNELL: That's correct. And there's a reference to
15 Dr. Hadzic on page 2.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: And to a meeting with Dr. Hadzic on page 2?
17 MR. GOSNELL: No. No -- there's no --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just mentioning the name.
19 MR. GOSNELL: Correct. Correct.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. In that case, I have no question for the
22 Mr. Witness, Mr. Abd El Razek, this brings your testimony to an
23 end. We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist us. You
24 are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate this.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Have a good evening.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think there's anything else. Court
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.22 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of July,
9 2013, at 9.00 a.m.