1 Tuesday, 2 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Now we are back to
6 courtroom 1. Yes, I was informed that there was a scheduling issue.
7 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We had scheduled for the
9 9th of July to hear the testimony of General Miletic, and last Friday,
10 his lawyer advised me that General Miletic, in light of the Chamber's
11 decision to certify the Tolimir appeal concerning --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- the first part of today's hearing
13 was not reflected in the transcript.
14 Shall we continue? Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: I'll start over, Mr. President. So this is in
16 regard to General Miletic who is scheduled to testify on the 9th of July
17 and you've issued a subpoena to that effect. His lawyer has advised me
18 that General Miletic is requesting that his testimony be postponed until
19 after the Appeals Chamber decides the issue of whether a person whose
20 case is pending on appeal can be compelled to testify during this trial.
21 That's an issue that you've certified for General Tolimir to appeal and
22 we think that's reasonable, and therefore we join in his request that his
23 subpoena be postponed until after that decision is ruled on.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. And good morning
2 That's a useful backdrop to the scheduling issue I wanted to
3 raise that arises from that circumstance. I could begin by noting that
4 the rescheduling of General Miletic is hardly unexpected, given the
5 circumstances, but this is not a finger-pointing exercise. Instead, I
6 wanted to alert the Court to the scheduling concern against the backdrop
7 of what I think has been pretty remarkable scheduling throughout the
8 entire process and great efforts by both parties and what I consider to
9 be the relatively inevitable scheduling difficulties that arise as we
10 begin to approach the end of the Defence time and their options for
11 switching witnesses become -- becomes more limited.
12 In this case, to deal with the postponement of Miletic's
13 testimony, the Defence has accelerated or proposed to accelerate the
14 testimony of expert Keserovic, who had already been moved up considerably
15 from the September slot he had been assigned and about which we had been
16 notified previously. So now he is proposed as a witness for next week,
17 giving us essentially a week to prepare an expert witness's testimony.
18 As the Court, I'm sure, is aware, the preparation of expert
19 cross-examination in view of the density of materials involved is a
20 considerable logistical exercise which requires investment of both
21 resources and time.
22 We spoke to Mr. Robinson about that. As the Court is aware, we
23 have, I think to a largely unprecedented degree, been able to reach
24 accommodations where possible. In this case, he indicated that he
25 considers his options for substitution to be limited, but does agree that
1 it would be a fair approach if Keserovic's direct examination were heard
2 and then his cross-examination was postponed for a later and appropriate
3 date. At the same time, I think Mr. Robinson is concerned about
4 incurring the irritation of the Court for doing so, so we're not
5 presenting this as a fait accompli, but indicating to the Court the
6 problem that has arisen. From the Prosecution point of view, we would
7 not be provided with sufficient time to properly prepare through no fault
8 of our own. And so we think this is an appropriate accommodation,
9 provided of course that there is no attempt to do the same thing with
10 the -- any gap that might be left by postponing the cross-examination of
11 Keserovic by moving somebody else up who also generates the same problem.
12 Again, I think we're going to see more and more of this. The --
13 we were advised this morning of a shift in the witness schedule that may
14 have some impact on the scheduling of witnesses this week. We're doing
15 our best to accommodate those changes and adjust accordingly, even when
16 it involves a tremendous amount of accelerated work by the Prosecution.
17 I spoke with Mr. Costi who has the following three witnesses and he has
18 indicated his willingness to do everything possible and prevent any need
19 for an adjustment of the schedule on his part, but that's quite an
20 extraordinary effort on his part. We'll continue to do so, but we'll
21 alert the Court to situations where that really isn't possible.
22 So that's what I wanted to bring to the attention of the Court.
23 I hope the Keserovic situation can be resolved as proposed. Again, I
24 would emphasise that under these circumstances both parties agree that
25 that would be a reasonable solution.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Keserovic is an expert on what field, if you
2 could remind us?
3 MR. ROBINSON: He's a military expert concerning the activities
4 in the Krajina.
5 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation as to the submission of
6 Mr. Tieger?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. The problem is that we don't
8 have -- we were lucky to get General Keserovic to come on such short
9 notice to fill the time next week, in fact, he would be arriving this
10 weekend as would any witness who would have to testify during that time
11 slot. And so we don't have anyone to replace him and the Chamber will
12 have to be idle during the period that we had scheduled for General
13 Miletic if we don't hear his testimony, and that's why I was reluctant to
14 agree to anything with the Prosecution because that's the alternative and
15 I leave it to you. As far as we're concerned, we're proposing that he
16 give his evidence and I leave it to you to decide whether the notice that
17 we've been forced to give to the Prosecution, which is much shorter than
18 we would have liked, is still adequate for them to be able to
19 cross-examine the witness.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber will consider the issue.
21 Are there any other matters? Yes, Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Just one matter. I appreciate that the Court will
23 be considering this issue. I would simply ask that we be advised at the
24 earliest possible opportunity where things stand so we can adapt
25 accordingly. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I advised the Chamber by
4 e-mail this morning that the witness that was scheduled for tomorrow,
5 John Zametica, has now declined to testify and will not be travelling to
6 give his testimony. We filed a motion this morning for a subpoena for
7 him, but it will leave us with a shortage of witnesses this week. So I
8 just want to alert you to that and apologise for that.
9 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Robinson, thank you. I don't think you need
10 to apologise where a witness refuses to come; that's completely out of
11 your hands.
12 JUDGE KWON: But we still have Mr. Deronjic, protected witness,
13 Peric, and Mr. Andan for this week.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
16 Unless there's any other matters, we'll bring in the witness,
17 Mr. Karisik.
18 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Morning, Your Honours. Morning, everyone. I just
20 wanted to say -- alert you all in advance, I have about 35 minutes left,
21 checking with the Court staff. I wanted to tell you that I will be
22 asking, once I use that time, for approximately another half-hour. I'd
23 already told Mr. Robinson that, just so you know that request is coming.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Karisik.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please continue.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 WITNESS: MILENKO KARISIK [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
7 Q. Okay, sir, I want to focus on where we left off last week, which
8 is your trip to Zvornik on 16 July 1995 and ask you some questions about
9 that day. Now, in paragraph 38 of your statement you state:
10 "When I arrived in Zvornik, I first went to the CJB, where I was
11 briefed about the situation and problems concerning Zvornik and then I
12 went straight away to the Zvornik Brigade IKM."
13 In the following paragraph you state:
14 "I asked the commander of the Zvornik Brigade,
15 Mr. Vinko Pandurevic, to insist during the talks with the Muslim side on
16 the release of the captured police officer" --
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I think the witness has a problem with his
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karisik.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The volume of the interpretation is
21 low, so it's overpowering -- the voice of the Prosecutor is overpowering
22 the volume of the interpretation.
23 JUDGE KWON: Now do you hear me without any problems?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's better now.
25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we try again, Mr. Nicholls.
1 MR. NICHOLLS:
2 Q. Sorry about that, Mr. Karisik. I'll try again. Talking about
3 the 16 July trip to Zvornik is where we left off. In paragraph 38 you
5 "When I arrived in Zvornik, I first went to the CJB, where I was
6 briefed about the situation and problems concerning Zvornik and then I
7 went straight away to the Zvornik Brigade IKM."
8 In paragraph 39 you say that you spoke with Zvornik Brigade
9 commander Vinko Pandurevic at the IKM. And last week you said you might
10 have been there with Vasic. I just want to confirm that for you and help
11 your memory. Dragomir Vasic, in an interview on 10 June 2003, on
12 page 63, 65 ter number 25301 for my friends, stated that he went with you
13 to Baljkovica to see Mr. Pandurevic, so Mr. Vasic also says he was with
14 you that day. And he says to check with Pandurevic whether it is
15 possible to do anything regarding the exchange for the captured police
16 officer. And he said:
17 "Until that moment I think" you, Mr. Karisik, "were in
19 So you're with Pandurevic at the IKM after being briefed at the
20 police station about the problems in Zvornik. That's what I'm going to
21 ask you some questions about. First of all, let me tell you what
22 Mr. Vasic knew on the 16th when he met with you and you were briefed
23 about the problems in Zvornik. He testified in this trial -- in this
24 court in the Perisic case at T 4685 to 86 that, on the 14th of July in
25 the morning, he met with Colonel Beara in Bratunac. Colonel Beara told
2 "Q. What did he tell you, what did Colonel Beara tell you?
3 "A. He repeated that on the next -- that on the order of
4 General Mladic to him was to kill the prisoners and asked if he could set
5 aside some policemen to help carry out this task, the murders, and
6 Mr. Vasic refused."
7 Mr. Vasic continued in his testimony at 6501, that he met
8 Tomo Kovac that same morning, 14 July, in Bratunac. And he stated:
9 "Immediately after the minister's arrival, Mr. Kovac's arrival, I
10 informed him about my meeting and the content of the conversation and the
11 content actually of what I heard from Mr. Beara.
12 "Q. Did he react at all?
13 "A. The minister said that the military prisoners were under the
14 jurisdiction of the army and that was not our job, that we shouldn't
15 interfere with these matters."
16 And then in his testimony Mr. Vasic was asked again, this time by
17 the court, by Judge David, what he told Mr. Kovac. And he said -- the
18 question was:
19 "Did you refer to Minister Kovac all the details of the content
20 of your conversation with Beara in an explicit manner?
21 "A. Yes, I did precisely, the complete conversation in the
22 evening. And in the morning and in the evening I conveyed to Mr. Kovac."
23 And then the Judge asked him what Mr. Kovac said and Mr. Vasic
25 "I can also add that it was his opinion that because of the tense
1 relations between himself and Mr. Mladic and between the army and the
2 police, it was important for us that we were not authorised or that the
3 prisoners were not under our jurisdiction and that it was not really our
4 concern what was going on and not to interfere."
5 And the Judge said:
6 "Thank you very much. No further questions."
7 So on the 14th of July, two days before you go to Zvornik, Vasic
8 knows from the Main Staff security organ that the plan is to kill all the
9 prisoners in Bratunac. He explains that to your superior, the minister,
10 to who tells him: Not our concern, not to get involved. Now, you spoke
11 in the beginning about the jurisdictional differences, but as a
12 professional, is that okay, is it okay for the minister to say that it's
13 not his concern that the army is planning to kill thousands of prisoners
14 held in Bratunac?
15 A. I can only speak about my role, and as a witness I can say that
16 Vasic didn't tell me that at the time. I don't want to comment on the
17 minister's statement. Additionally, the minister never informed me at
18 the time when he told me verbally that I should go to Zvornik in order to
19 try and influence the command and Commander Pandurevic in order to
20 achieve an exchange of a captured PJP member from Doboj. As far as I can
21 remember, Vasic said that it was a huge problem in terms that the column
22 that was leaving was putting the very town in danger --
23 Q. Okay. Stop --
24 A. -- we never discussed any executions or information --
25 Q. Okay, well, you're jumping ahead to questions I haven't asked
1 yet. I'll ask it again. As a professional police officer, as a career
2 police officer, if the top level of the MUP of the RS learns of a plan to
3 murder thousands of prisoners, is it okay to do nothing? Forgetting
4 about assisting in the transport of the prisoners that day to execution
5 sites. Is it okay to do nothing?
6 A. I really had never been informed by the minister. I was not even
7 physically close to him in order for us to discuss what was wrong or what
8 was right. So in view of me not having that information at the time, it
9 is inappropriate for me to comment upon it today. Any crime that takes
10 place is wrong, that is my personal opinion. As far as the operation
11 carried out by the Army of Republika Srpska - and I said three or four
12 days ago was that I was at the staff at Pale on a completely different
13 mission relating to the Sarajevo theatre of war, you are now telling me
14 that the minister was involved in this affair related to Srebrenica. I
15 don't know anything about that and I cannot comment on the minister's
17 Q. All right. Well, when you're at the IKM with Pandurevic, that's
18 on the 16th of July, as you probably know Mr. Pandurevic has been
19 convicted in this Court and here's what the Trial Chamber found at
20 paragraph 1959. They found that assessing all the evidence, the
21 Trial Chamber was ultimately satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that
22 on 15 July, Pandurevic was told by Obrenovic about the detention,
23 execution, and burial of prisoners in the Zvornik area. So that's the
24 day before you meet with him for hours. Paragraph 1960 of his judgement
25 is similar.
1 "Based on the information conveyed to him ... Pandurevic thus
2 knew that pursuant to Mladic's order, Beara and Popovic had brought a
3 large number of prisoners from Bratunac to Zvornik where they were being
4 executed ..."
5 A. I'm sorry, could you please speak more slowly in order for me to
6 be able to understand. If Mr. Prosecutor can just slow down. He speaks
7 very fast, thus I'm not able to follow what he's saying.
8 Q. I'll put it very simply and slowly. In Mr. Pandurevic's trial it
9 was found that he knew beyond reasonable doubt by 15 July 1995 that
10 prisoners were being brought to Zvornik, detained, and executed there.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: And if I could have P00138, please.
12 Q. This is Mr. Pandurevic's report to the Drina Corps on
13 15 July 1995, the day before you met with him. And while it's coming up
14 I'll just read out the section.
15 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
16 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area as well as obligations
17 of security and restoration of the terrain."
18 So all of that backdrop I've given you is the day before you
19 spend hours with Vasic and Pandurevic in Zvornik at the IKM. Are you
20 telling me that when they briefed you on the problems facing Zvornik,
21 they didn't tell you one of the problems in addition to fighting the
22 column was the fact that they were busy executing, burying Muslim
23 prisoners and had been doing so for three days?
24 A. My answer would be absolutely not, nobody mentioned any
25 executions or burials, et cetera. I am testifying here and I am a
1 witness who cannot confirm that because, honestly, that had not been said
2 to me.
3 Q. Okay. Well, you're trying to get a Doboj policeman back who's
4 been captured. Did it occur to you in that task to say, "Hey, maybe we
5 can exchange some prisoners for him"?
6 A. My mission, so to speak, was to keep insisting that
7 Commander Pandurevic, whom I heard talking via radio with the commander
8 of the opposite side and I don't know the name of that Muslim officer, to
9 have this policeman exchanged for which purpose I was there in
10 particular. I didn't know whether there were any prisoners who can be
11 exchanged for that policeman and who these people were. They may have
12 been such prisoners, but I insisted because I came there as the member of
13 the staff and the head of the police department for -- pursuant to the
14 order of Mr. Minister to put --
15 Q. Okay. You've answered --
16 A. -- an end to the story --
17 Q. You've answered the question. So you didn't ask them -- you
18 didn't ask Mr. Pandurevic or Mr. Vasic, "Do you have any prisoners here,"
19 since Mr. Pandurevic is complaining that the day before -- he's
20 complaining in his report from the day before that thousands have been
21 brought into his area of responsibility? They didn't tell you, "Well,
22 most of the ones around here have been killed, but there were some in
23 Pilica Dom that you drove past on the way down, we could get a few from
24 there still."
25 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, that's a very difficult
1 question to answer. There's been about three questions. Most of it is
2 comment or argument. I would ask that he put a more clear question to
3 the witness.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Did Pandurevic tell you that there were prisoners available?
7 A. Pandurevic mentioned that there were prisoners somewhere on a
8 road as far as I can remember, although I cannot confirm that accurately.
9 But I was not the person who can tell the commander, and the issue of
10 exchange was under his jurisdiction at the moment, how to go ahead with
11 that. It was not my jurisdiction and my authority to tell Pandurevic
12 what to do and what not to do. I was a representative of the Ministry of
13 the Interior. I came to see the commander and I asked him to carry out
14 the exchange of this policeman, and I keep saying that that is all that I
15 knew. I couldn't influence him in terms of how he was going to proceed
16 with this exchange and I heard him talking with his counterpart, the
17 other commander.
18 Q. Okay. So again -- and we'll move on, but you'll agree with me
19 that your subordinate knew that these mass executions were going on,
20 Mr. Vasic, and Mr. Pandurevic knew that they were going on, and you were
21 briefed on the situation by them but you didn't know?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. How could he know --
23 how could he agree with him as to what Mr. Vasic and what Mr. Pandurevic
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Because I've just shown him the evidence that they
2 MR. ROBINSON: But this is not a debate. He's supposed to be
3 testifying as to what he knows, not speculating on what other people have
4 said at one time or another that they knew.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, would you rephrase the question.
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. Your testimony -- I'll just move on. You didn't know anything
9 about the murder operation even on the 16th of July?
10 A. That's correct, I didn't know.
11 Q. After spending hours with Vasic and Pandurevic?
12 A. Yes. Regardless of the time spent with them. I'm explaining as
13 a witness what I was doing in that time with Pandurevic. Vasic came back
14 soon. He was there only to show me the road. I would never have located
15 the IKM without their help.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P0522 [sic], please.
18 Q. This will just help us with the time. This is from the
19 16 July 1995, Pale police forces command staff, approximately 1500.
20 "We were informed by assistant Karisik about negotiations between
21 the commander of the VRS" --
22 JUDGE KWON: Would you wait.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. I'm just --
24 MR. ROBINSON: I think you gave the wrong number.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: P05222, please. Thank you.
1 Q. Okay. So, very simply, around 1500 hours that day you inform the
2 Pale staff about these events; right?
3 A. Allow me to read it. Can it be enlarged?
4 Yes, this is a dispatch from Pale with a staff member, one Milun,
5 I don't know exactly.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P05076, please.
8 Q. This is an intercept from half an hour later and it's from the
9 Main Staff, General Miletic most likely, based on the other evidence,
10 calling the Palma, which is Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook at
11 1530, 1529. And he says:
12 "I have to get permission from the main boss.
14 "Well, that's why I'm calling you.
15 "So from the main head of state?
17 "That's why I'm calling ... that's exactly why I'm calling."
18 Then they talk about the information they're getting. For time I
19 won't go through this in detail, but the person from the Main Staff says
20 they need Vinko to contact them right away. And our case is that this is
21 about the column going through. So the -- this is not simply about a
22 return of a policeman. There's no mention of that in this intercept.
23 The main head of state needs to give permission before anything else
24 happens. Isn't that what you were also talking about on the
25 16th of July, whether this corridor should or should not be opened to
1 allow the Muslims to pass through? Because the president's permission is
3 A. I don't want to comment on the dispatches from the Main Staff of
4 the VRS. The dispatches most likely exist, this is one of them. I don't
5 want to comment on it as an eye-witness of those events because I never
6 saw it. As for the corridor being opened, this was not within my
7 jurisdiction, it was not up to me to decide about that. It was within
8 the purview of the Army of Republika Srpska, which was in charge of the
9 entire operation including the opening up of our stretch of the front in
10 order to allow the forces to leave Srebrenica in the direction of
11 Kalesija and Tuzla. Therefore, there is no need for me to comment on it,
12 nor can I really comment who would be reporting to whom within the army
13 and what their respective competences were.
14 Q. All right. In your statement at paragraph 62, you say you don't
15 remember if you had direct contact with Mr. Karadzic that day.
16 Mr. Karadzic in this trial stated at 26265, lines 1 to 4:
17 "Thank you. Did you perhaps find out that Mr. Karisik phoned me
18 to inform me of this move of Pandurevic's?"
19 Does that help you remember that you called and spoke with
20 Mr. Karadzic directly?
21 A. This, unfortunately not. My technical capacities were very poor.
22 I was in a mountainous area and I wasn't really able to sit down and have
23 a conversation with Mr. Karadzic, truly.
24 Q. Well, you would have to go through Zvornik on the way back and in
25 Zvornik they had communications directly with Pale. You could have gone
1 right to the CJB and used either the public security or the state
2 security communication lines. But if you don't remember, then fine.
3 A. Yes, I really don't remember.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have D02002.
5 Q. You were shown this by the Defence in making your statement.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, do you have the date for the
7 transcript page 26265?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. 14 March 2012.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. All right. You discuss this in paragraphs 61 and 62 of your
12 statement. This is an intercept between somebody at the Main Staff,
13 we'll probably see it's General Miletic when he comes, and
14 General Mladic. And he says -- it's at 1615, so shortly after 45 minutes
15 later than the one we saw previously. And he says:
16 "Well, the president called a short while ago and said that he
17 had been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic had arranged passage for the
18 Muslims over to the territory."
19 And then he talks about how he said he urgently needs a report
20 from Pandurevic. So again, does that refresh your recollection that you
21 spoke with President Karadzic and gave him realtime information on what
22 was happening with the Muslims in Zvornik?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
24 JUDGE KWON: On what, Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This isn't about the Muslims in
1 Zvornik; rather, this is about the column which is making its way
2 through. And the question twists the meaning. This is about me making
3 sure that Pandurevic was not punished.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think Mr. Nicholls was referring to the column.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I was exactly, and I think it's not a fair comment
6 for him to now give his explanation of what this conversation was about
7 to the witness. Whether it is -- it is exactly about the column which
8 was in Zvornik, which was made up of Muslims. So my question was
10 JUDGE KWON: But it might have been confusing on the -- shall we
12 Do you remember the question, Mr. Karisik?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already answered the question.
14 This is of no particular assistance to me. At the IKM I didn't have the
15 communications necessary to pass on information to anyone. I especially
16 don't recall talking to President Karadzic. Perhaps somebody else, but
17 me at the time, no.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. Okay. Okay. Well, how did you get the information to
20 President Karadzic about the column which Mr. Karadzic in this trial said
21 that he was called by you and in this intercept it says that he was
22 called by you. Forget about how -- whether you spoke to him directly.
23 How did you get the information to him about the situation in Zvornik so
24 that he had it before 1615 on 16 July?
25 A. Throughout my testimony I've been saying that I was not the man
1 who was reporting on operation Srebrenica to President Karadzic at any
2 point in time. I especially don't recall about this because there I was
3 only negotiating with Mr. Pandurevic to bring about the exchange of that
4 policeman. I don't recall discussing anything with President Karadzic.
5 I only spoke in the past tense and I was to report on the Sarajevo
6 battle-field, and then I went to Bijeljina and then I was supposed to
7 attend these negotiations on the order from the minister.
8 Q. Okay. Well, again, it says here from the Main Staff to Mladic on
9 16 July at 1615:
10 "Good day, General, sir. Well, it's like this. I've just sent a
11 telegram to Toso. Well, the president called a short while ago and said
12 that he had been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic has arranged passage
13 for the Muslims over to that territory."
14 So you did report on Srebrenica events to the president; right?
15 A. You are commenting on an intercept in the Main Staff of the VRS.
16 As a witness I'm telling you that I did not report to President Karadzic
17 and I don't recall that at all. I could not, it was not possible for me,
18 because I did not have the technical requirements for it.
19 Q. You're -- just agreed to me that you reported to Pale by 1500 on
20 the situation of the policeman. Pale is where the president is.
21 A. No. That was an assertion you made. I've been telling you the
22 whole time that I did not contact President Karadzic once when it comes
23 to reporting. When I told you about the information involving the staff
24 in Pale and that short visit which I commented upon earlier on, well, I
25 did tell you what I was able to comment or to report to him about because
1 I was in charge of that Sarajevo area. At any rate, this was within the
2 competence and the decision-making power of the minister.
3 Q. All right. So when Karadzic said in this trial on 14 March 2012:
4 "Did you find out that Mr. Karisik phoned me to inform me about
5 this move of Pandurevic's and to ask me to give him protection,"
6 et cetera, that's not correct?
7 A. In my testimony I'm speaking about the role I played in that part
8 of the story. I said that I could not confirm that I informed
9 Mr. Karadzic about anything. Without wishing to comment on what the
10 president said at trial. That's a different story.
11 Q. And that's because of your technical abilities, but again I'm
12 going to press you on this. You agreed with me just a short while ago
13 that you did report to Pale at 1500 on the situation of the prisoner. So
14 you could report to Pale?
15 A. Well, evidently there is a dispatch in which I said that the
16 exchange was ongoing. Was it after my return and upon my return to the
17 base, to the HQ of the department, I can't recall. It was a long time
18 ago, but it is possible that I informed someone about the fact that the
19 negotiations were ongoing and that I was unable to bring about the
20 exchange of the policeman through the command.
21 Q. Okay --
22 A. But it's been so many years. It's difficult for me to recall and
23 there had been thousands of dispatches.
24 Q. Okay. Well, I'll move on in a minute, but are you seriously
25 saying that the highest officer in public security under Tomo Kovac goes
1 all the way down to Zvornik on the 16 July 1995 only to talk about the
2 return of one Doboj policeman, that you weren't there because of the
3 problem of this Muslim column escaping. That's why you were there,
4 weren't you, to inform the president what was going on?
5 A. There is three questions in one there. I do not accept any of
6 your assertions. I truly went there only to bring about the exchange of
7 the policeman. I repeat, the opening up of the corridor is not part of
8 my purview at all. It is within the purview of the military commander
9 and the VRS. My role was specifically defined by the minister and that
10 was to go there in order to make sure that the policeman is exchanged,
11 nothing more and nothing less than that.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I've used my 35 minutes. I'd
13 request half an hour more, and I can tell you the topics if you wish or
14 just request it.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
18 Q. All right. Now I want to -- we've talked about what the MUP
19 didn't do a bit in investigating the crimes committed in Srebrenica, and
20 you explained at the beginning about the jurisdictional issue from your
21 perspective. I want to look at what the MUP did do in relation to the
22 crimes committed in Srebrenica.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P04491, please.
24 Q. Now, this is a document that the Trial Chamber's seen before.
25 It's dated 16th of January, 1996. You'll want to read this whole thing.
1 And at the top we see MUP Ministry of the Interior Republika Srpska,
2 office of the minister, Pale. And we see public security
3 department - head, the RJB, so that's you, and it's about a Main Staff
4 dispatch. And it says:
5 "Please find enclosed the full text of a dispatch from the
6 Main Staff sector for intelligence and security ..." et cetera. "To the
7 minister of the interior, the minister, personally.
8 "Considering that we have a group of members of the 10th
9 Sabotage Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on a list of
10 individuals who have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you
11 order the Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian names and last
12 names to these individuals or with different first and last names for
13 Serbian nationals, there are 8 (eight) such individuals."
14 Tell me when you've read it.
15 A. Can I ask you to have time to read this through? It's the first
16 time I'm seeing it, you see.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Can it be blown up just a bit, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: We just collapse the English for the moment.
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. Take your time.
22 Are you still reading?
23 A. I've finished.
24 Q. Okay. Well, there's been testimony in this trial -
25 27 February 2012, Your Honours, at T 25351 - by a member of the
1 10th Sabotage Detachment, who admitted taking part of mass executions in
2 Branjevo Farm and that members of his unit took part. And that man also
3 testified that indeed around this time he went to Bijeljina and was
4 issued with a fake ID.
5 So my question to you is: Doesn't this show that this strict
6 separation between the army and the MUP regarding Srebrenica events
7 breaks down, doesn't it, when the army needs help covering up the crimes?
8 A. I wouldn't put it that way, Mr. Prosecutor. This is your usual
9 co-operation between two state agencies, specifically the intelligence
10 administration of the Main Staff headed by, from what I can tell,
11 Colonel Salapura, and the Ministry of the Interior, headed by the
12 then-minister, who as part of customary co-operation, which I'm sure had
13 nothing to do with Srebrenica, had to meet the request of issuing a
14 number of identity cards which are used in all services and is the
15 customary practice across the world --
16 Q. Okay. Let me --
17 A. -- obviously this was part of the public security department and
18 a request was sent, and it was my duty to act upon it.
19 Q. All right. Well, usual co-operation, I'm not sure how careful
20 you read this even though you had plenty of time. Is it usual
21 co-operation between the MUP and the VRS to issue false IDs to persons
22 who are on a list of individuals who have been indicted by The Hague?
23 A. In retrospect I can't tell whether the Law on Co-operation with
24 The Hague Tribunal was being applied at the time. This is for a legal
25 expert. But I do know that our duty was to implement a request coming
1 from our minister. I don't know who these individuals are, I was never
2 interested in that. I heard from you now that these were people from the
3 Main Staff and that they had to do with Srebrenica.
4 Q. Wait, wait --
5 A. -- my sphere of interest --
6 Q. Wait, you didn't hear from me -- you did hear from me -- it says
7 on this document "members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment."
8 A. To my mind, this means nothing. I don't know who members of the
9 10th Sabotage Detachment are as a member of public security. The
10 intelligence administration asked the Ministry of the Interior to pursue
11 activities that were part of your standard co-operation, and I had a role
12 to play in meeting the request sent to me --
13 Q. Okay --
14 A. -- nothing more, nothing less.
15 Q. All right. So there were eight fake IDs requested for members of
16 the 10th Sabotage Detachment. There were eight members, I'll tell you
17 the evidence shows, of the 10th Sabotage Detachment at the Branjevo
18 Farm's executions. And, if I understand you right, you're telling me
19 these IDs were issued by your department?
20 A. I don't know how many of them were issued. I wasn't following up
21 on how this was seen through. I'm discussing the dispatch now. Upon an
22 order from the minister, I am pursuing certain activities within the
23 department. I don't know how this went through, whether anything was
24 issued or how many IDs were issued. I do know that I was duty-bound to
25 pass this on pursuant to an order from the minister, that was indeed the
1 case. Now, as for the particulars, this is the co-operation between two
2 state agencies, specifically the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of
3 the Interior. I'm sure that somebody else would be better placed to
4 comment on this.
5 Q. All right. I want to now talk to you about the one and only MUP
6 investigation in 1995 in connection with the Srebrenica executions, and
7 that is the arrest and prosecution of a journalist for reporting on the
8 executions and attempting to get more of the story.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have paragraph 42, please -- excuse me.
10 65 ter 21889.
11 Q. We don't have a copy in your language, sir, so I'll just tell you
12 what this is while it's coming up. It's an article from the --
13 MR. NICHOLLS: E-court page 1, 65 ter 21889.
14 Q. It's an article from a United States newspaper called "The
15 Christian Science Monitor" from August 18th, 1995. So about a month
16 after you were at the IKM in Zvornik. And the headline is:
17 "Evidence indicates Bosnia massacre."
18 And the sub-headline is:
19 "Eye-witness reports supports charges by US of killings."
20 And the first paragraph refers to "strong evidence that a
21 massacre of Bosnian Muslim prisoners took place last month." The article
22 is by David Rohde. Now, you wouldn't have seen or known about this
23 article, right, because you didn't hear about any crimes committed
24 against Bosnian Muslim prisoners until after the war was over; right?
25 A. That's correct.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, may I tender this? It will -- I'm
2 going to ask some more questions about Mr. Rohde and this article.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I notice that a lot of different
4 articles in this document, so I think if we limit it to the first page,
5 then that's okay.
6 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with the admission at the end of
7 your --
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, that's fine, thank you --
9 JUDGE KWON: -- questions.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: -- and I agree, just this particular article
11 that's on pages 1 and 2, it should be.
12 Could I have P05227.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You're done with this article?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. For the time I don't want to go
15 through all the content. It's just to establish that it was known that
16 David Rohde had published an article alleging massacres of Bosnian
17 Muslims on August 18th.
18 JUDGE KWON: But let us see how -- yes, let's continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask. I'm not contesting
20 anything; however, I have not been allowed to tender documents of which
21 the witness has no knowledge.
22 JUDGE KWON: That's why I'm -- I suggest dealing with this later
23 on. Probably something more is coming with respect to David Rohde.
24 Let's continue.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. Now, sir, this is an article -- a report from 31st October 1995.
2 So it's approximately two months after the article I just showed you.
3 And it's from Dragan Kijac, head of RDB, to the VRS. And it is talking
4 about the arrest of David Rohde in Zvornik. Take a chance to look at it.
5 On 29th October 1995, it says in paragraph 2, he "headed for locations
6 where, according to his information, there were mass graves of Muslims
7 killed during the period of combat operations in the Srebrenica area in
8 July this year." And they found military maps, et cetera, and is
9 provided for their action.
10 So what the MUP is concerned with and focusing on a few months
11 after the fall of Srebrenica is not investigating the perpetrators of the
12 crimes, investigating what happened; it's investigating a journalist
13 who's trying to find out what happened. Right?
14 A. It is clear from this dispatch that this is information which was
15 sent by the state security department. I would not want to proffer any
16 comments. You should ask the witness who's from that department, from
17 the state security department. I've not seen this dispatch before and
18 I'm really reluctant to provide any comments on other people's
20 Q. Let me show you one more and I'll ask you.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: 65 ter 25253, please.
22 Q. All right. This document is signed by Goran Radovic. We saw
23 earlier some of his reports that were going to you early on in the
24 Srebrenica operation, and it's a detention order for David Rohde. So
25 again - I know it's not your department - but you were a very senior
1 lifetime officer in the RS MUP. Why is it that what the MUP is focusing
2 on and its only prosecution, unless you can -- in its only investigation,
3 unless you can show me another one, after the fall of Srebrenica
4 regarding the murder of Muslims is a journalist who is trying to take
5 pictures of execution sites?
6 A. Again, I will not comment upon the dispatch because this was sent
7 by the chief of the state security department. I as the chief of the
8 national security would not like to comment upon this. I've not seen
9 this before. And as far as the criminal report is concerned, I'm sure
10 that it was filed in keeping with the Law on the Movement and Stay of
11 Foreigners or some other law that concerned the journalist and the
12 journalist was doing things contrary to our laws. I'm sure that the
13 state security department filed a criminal report for that reason. I
14 really don't want to comment because I'm not familiar with the details of
15 the places that are mentioned. I'm sure that he did something that was
16 contrary to the law.
17 Q. Well, I'll show you --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was not national
19 but public security department.
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. You tell me one investigation by the MUP in 1995 into any of the
22 crimes committed after the fall of Srebrenica that you as head of public
23 security know about.
24 A. I can't say for that period shortly after the war when we still
25 did not have detailed information that you're presenting here. The
1 information that we had at that time was very weak and insufficient.
2 When it comes to war crimes during those operations were to be dealt with
3 the military prosecutor -- prosecution, it was within their authority.
4 When it -- it was difficult for the Ministry of the Interior to do
5 anything more than that during that period of time --
6 Q. Let me stop you there. I understand that when Tomo Kovac and
7 Vasic hear from somebody on the Main Staff that the Main Staff is going
8 to kill all the prisoners, that the procedure in Republika Srpska, the
9 procedure in that state, was that the military is meant to investigate
10 itself. That's what you're saying, right? You just leave it to them and
11 don't worry about it?
12 A. We as the Ministry of the Interior learned about those alleged
13 crimes that you mentioned very late, and it seems that some of those
14 crimes indeed did happen. That was within the jurisdiction of the army
15 and the military courts. When it comes to crimes that were committed
16 during all sorts of military operation, the Ministry of the Interior did
17 not have capacities to open that issue, especially in view of the belated
19 Q. Okay. Well, what about the information received immediately
20 about the role of the MUP in transporting prisoners from Bratunac to
21 Zvornik, what about the information available immediately that the MUP
22 had executed over a thousand prisoners on 13 July? Why are there no
23 reports by the MUP of the MUP's involvement in the crimes?
24 A. The MUP was resubordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska during
25 that operation. The word "resubordination" means something -- means that
1 we were a minor force that participated but the operation was commanded
2 by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. We were the
3 second-rate force, and it is obvious that something happened that was not
4 supposed to happen or was indeed happening at the time. So when I say it
5 was within the jurisdiction of the army and military courts, you must
6 understand, it has to be clear what I meant.
7 Q. Yeah, well, what I'll put to you is the reason the MUP didn't do
8 any reports on the crimes committed by the army or by members of the MUP
9 is because the MUP was part of this criminal operation and, just like the
10 army, didn't investigate itself.
11 A. I believe that the question that you are putting to me as a
12 witness is something that you should ask the minister of the interior
13 when he comes to testify.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, may I tender that document? I only
15 have a couple more questions.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. I don't think this has
17 managed to elicit any comment from the witness that either confirms or
18 contradicts his evidence and -- or the document. And going back also to
19 the newspaper article, I think it's -- falls into the same category. I
20 thought Mr. Nicholls had more of a link between David Rohde's situation
21 and this witness, but he doesn't. But he'll have other witnesses which
22 he'll have an opportunity to discuss these things with.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I have a couple more documents that don't
24 link directly to this witness, but I think it's pretty incredible and I
25 think it's fair to admit them just to show that the highest-ranking
1 official in the public security department claims not to have known that
2 the only investigation into Srebrenica was part of a cover-up.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 MR. NICHOLLS: If I can add one point, Your Honours, if you don't
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: He did comment on these documents and said he --
8 first that he didn't want to comment, but then said words to the effect:
9 I'm sure this was all legal and this was done in the way that the RDB
10 does things.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: Based upon this latest comment of Mr. Nicholls with
13 which we agree, we think we have a basis to admit these. We'll admit
14 them both. But the first one -- article is limited to the first and
15 second page. Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 21889 will be Exhibit P6422 and
17 25253 will be Exhibit P6423.
18 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. All right, sir, just a couple more questions.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 25254, please. This is again
22 from Goran Radovic to the court in Zvornik, a request to initiate
23 criminal proceedings against David Rohde. I'd like you to focus on the
24 bottom paragraph, II, where it discusses his crime, which included:
25 "In the area of the red mud dam in the village of Petkovci, he
1 shot images of the wider area of the dam with his camera although it was
2 forbidden ..."
3 Now, the dam in Petkovci is an execution site, we say. So when
4 the MUP arrests a foreign journalist who's got military maps, who's got
5 pictures of a dam because he's looking for execution sites, regardless of
6 whether his actions in taking the photos were legal under the law then,
7 you said you didn't have any information. Why does the MUP prosecute the
8 journalist instead of following up on his information and trying to find
9 out clues of what happened at the red dam? Why weren't you informed
10 about this? And I'll make the question very simple for Mr. Robinson.
11 Why weren't you informed about this in public security and told: We've
12 got to investigate a possible execution site at the red dam in Petkovci?
13 A. My answer is the same. The dispatch which was sent by the state
14 security department is something that I don't want to comment upon. I
15 was the chief of the public security department, and all the questions
16 that you have for me perhaps would be better for a witness who comes from
17 that department, from the state security department.
18 Q. Okay. Well, you worked -- you're in the diary several times,
19 many times, with Dragan Kijac, head of state security. This dispatch
20 doesn't go to you but it's in Zvornik. This man is arrested in Zvornik,
21 he's held in the Zvornik police station. Why doesn't the MUP -- I'm
22 asking you as a professional, not -- specifically this: When the MUP
23 receives information that there's a possible execution site, why didn't
24 the MUP go out there, look for shell casings, look for bone fragments
25 sticking out of the ground, look for Muslim IDs, and the other type of
1 information they could have found there, instead of prosecuting the man
2 who told them about it?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we get the reference as
4 to where does it say that in this document? He was arrested for
5 travelling with forged documents and illegal taking of photos of
6 facilities that are not supposed to be photographed.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, any response?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah, it's very clear - I don't have time to go
9 through all the documents - that Mr. Rohde and the other ones here says
10 that he was looking for these -- it says in the first document that I
11 showed that he was looking for crimes committed against the Muslims, the
12 one from Dragan Kijac. This one says he's taking pictures of the red dam
13 at Petkovci.
14 JUDGE KWON: Can you answer the question, Mr. Karisik?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not provide any further
16 comments because this concerns the state security department. This is
17 about a disciplinary procedure. It seems that a person violated the law.
18 He was a foreign national and he violated the laws and regulations which
19 concern unlawful photography of --
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- a vital object or facility such
22 as a dam --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm not sure if I understood your
24 answer. You said, "I would not provide any further comment ..." Is it
25 because it's other organ's purview or you did not know anything about it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was within the purview of a
2 different body, which is why I'm reluctant to provide any comments --
3 JUDGE KWON: Then -- no, just a second --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and on top of that, I have to
5 say that I have not seen the document before, so my knowledge of it is
7 JUDGE KWON: It was other organ's purview and you didn't see it
8 before, but you knew about it; is this what you're saying?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about this.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I was just wondering when you said
12 "knew about it," that was somewhat vague to me. Did you mean to ask him
13 whether he knew about the arrest and prosecution of the journalist or
14 about this document?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I was asking, Mr. Karisik, whether you knew or
16 heard about the arrest and prosecution of this journalist at the time?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I tender that document, Your Honours, for the same
22 MR. ROBINSON: Same objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We admitted the previous two, and on
24 that basis, we'll admit this as well.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6424, Your Honours.
1 MR. NICHOLLS:
2 Q. Okay. I'll speed it up a bit.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: 65 ter 21232.
4 Q. This is the 8th of November, 1995. Public statement.
5 "On the basis of his constitutional and legal powers, President
6 of Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, made a decision today to
7 acquit American journalist David Rohde of prosecution."
8 And it describes part of his offence as "photographing military
9 and other buildings deep in the territory of our republic." So
10 President Karadzic pardoned, abolished, acquitted, whatever you want to
11 call it, David Rohde for his crime of taking pictures of military
12 institutions like the red dam, and you still say you didn't know about
13 it, head of public security?
14 A. I was not the chief of the public security centre. I was the
15 chief of the public security department.
16 Q. Thank you. Same question.
17 A. No, no. I did not know about this public statement. This was
18 within the purview of the president of the Republika Srpska,
19 Mr. Karadzic. It is clear from the document, and I have no comment on
20 this document. He acted within the purview of his authorities and
22 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6425, Your Honours.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. All right. Last point.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have 65 ter 25259.
3 Q. This is an "Oslobodjenje" article of 15 November 1995. It's a
4 press conference with your boss, Tomo Kovac.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: And I believe, if we can blow it up, it's the
6 section on the right, that whole section on the right, that big column.
7 And if we go to page 3 of the English, please.
8 So one of the questions asked by a journalist was about arresting
9 American journalist David Rohde and Minister Kovac responded. And I
10 won't read it all. But Mr. Kovac --
11 JUDGE KWON: If you're not going to read it all, you need to make
12 sure the witness can read this.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: So that we can blow it up, if you could locate the
15 exact location.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe it's the section on the -- it's the last
17 column, if I have it right, under that heading there.
18 Q. Is that right, sir, the part -- can you read the part about
19 David Rohde?
20 A. I am still looking for the passage. The letters are really very
21 small. Where is it? Now I can see a little bit better.
22 Q. Can you see it now?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Well, what Mr. Kovac said was, in part:
25 "Your colleague was performing the most difficult form of
1 espionage for which the sentence from 3 to 15 years of prison is foreseen
2 in Republika Srpska in peace time, so consider it yourselves."
3 I'll skip a sentence.
4 "We will not and cannot accept people who are working outside of
5 their journalist etiquette and openly against my people and this state."
6 I'll skip another sentence.
7 "Rohde was lucky that the negotiations were in process so that
8 our President Karadzic released him by abolition to avoid the pressure on
9 our delegation and the Serbs being blamed for everything."
10 Have you read that?
11 A. Yes, for the most part. However, I am still waiting for a
13 Q. That's right. And I was just waiting to make sure you'd read it.
14 So my question for you is: Tomo Kovac, your boss, at the very top of the
15 MUP of the RS knows all about the David Rohde situation, he knows he's
16 been abolished. He calls what he's done a serious crime. I'm asking you
17 again, why is it -- from your perspective as a career law enforcement
18 officer, why is it that the only investigation by the MUP in 1995
19 connected to the crimes committed against Muslims after the fall of
20 Srebrenica is to prosecute a journalist?
21 A. Now you have just confirmed what I already said. This was within
22 the purview within the minister. I don't want to comment on any of his
23 interviews in principle. There is just one sentence here which I would
24 like to quote. Obviously the journalist was in breach of the law. I as
25 a professional mentioned that in one of your questions, or rather, in one
1 of the answers to your questions, and that's why he was prosecuted by our
2 judiciary organs. And I have no further comments on this.
3 Q. Well, we basically see Kovac warning other journalists not to
4 follow Rohde's example. I'll put it to you, this is just another example
5 of the MUP engaging in the cover-up of the crimes, the top of the MUP?
6 A. I don't agree with you. You will have to ask the minister what
7 it was that he stated and why, but I can't agree with you that the MUP
8 ever covered up any of the crimes.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. May I tender that,
10 Your Honours?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6426, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I take it you have some re-examination,
14 Mr. Karadzic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at
17 five past 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
20 JUDGE KWON: For the remainder of today, we'll be sitting
21 pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Lattanzi being away due to her
22 official duties.
23 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
25 Your Excellencies. Good morning to everyone.
1 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General Karisik.
3 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
4 Q. I have to remind you that since we speak the same language, we
5 have to make pauses, and feel free to warn me as well.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have 505222.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P05222.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, can you please tell us what were we requested to carry
10 out as a counter-measure in order for this captured policeman to be
11 released? I'm referring to the last paragraph. I believe that's where
12 it is stipulated.
13 A. This obviously has to do with the goodwill of the opposing side.
14 They had captive one of our police officers and I'm quite sure that along
15 with that, at least according to this dispatch, they had several
16 prisoners. I'm referring to the Muslim forces that were leaving in a
17 column or in some other location. And I'm talking about the return of
18 our captured fighters.
19 Q. Can you tell us what was our part of the bargain, of the deal,
20 what were we supposed to do in order to have our people released?
21 A. Probably opening up the corridor to free a certain distance of
22 the line in order for the forces to leave, and I spent several hours
23 looking at the civilians and soldiers crossing the line.
24 Q. There is mention in this dispatch that they wanted their
25 prisoners to be exchanged for our prisoners.
1 A. Well, I'm not sure about that specific portion --
2 Q. I'm talking about the dispatch, General. Do they mention
3 anything else in this telegram apart from our abiding by our part of the
4 deal, that is, to let them pass through?
5 A. Yes, their only goal was to get out and move towards Tuzla.
6 Q. Thank you. You mentioned several reports, or rather, pieces of
7 information, and I suppose that apart from information there is other
8 information that you have to act upon. Did you receive any such
9 information that you had to act upon?
10 A. Mr. President, I didn't quite understand your question. What do
11 you have in mind specifically?
12 Q. On page 93, last week, you said that there was information
13 containing report. What was the essence of this information? Why was it
14 called information and is there any kind of other form of information?
15 A. Well, I mentioned several information report of the state
16 security department sent to the public security department relating to
17 the movement of a large group of Muslim fighters breaking through towards
18 Tuzla and Kalesija.
19 Q. Thank you. I suppose that you saw a large number of various
20 reports and documents. Was there any mention in any of those reports any
21 executions of the prisoners?
22 A. Mr. President, throughout this whole period there was not a
23 single report, either in the form of a dispatch or any other form of
24 information report, that any executions took place in the period in
1 Q. Thank you. On pages 75 and 89 it was suggested to you on
2 page 75 --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I just wonder if Mr. Karadzic has the correct page
5 references, if he's talking about last week now, rather than page 75, if
6 he has them. It's better for the record to put the official transcript
8 JUDGE KWON: I told him last week if he has not access to the
9 updated LiveNote, it would be okay to refer to the page number for the
11 But, Mr. Robinson, if you could help us.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Dr. Karadzic doesn't receive
13 the daily transcripts in the way that we do, so he doesn't really have
14 access to the completed transcript. He's working off of the LiveNote
15 page numbers as he's hearing the testimony and making his own notes.
16 JUDGE KWON: If you could think about a way whether that
17 situation could be improved.
18 In the meantime, shall we continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But that depends on the
20 Registry, if they provide me with page numbers like all the other parties
21 have; otherwise, I receive daily page numbers, on a day-by-day basis.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So on Thursday that was on page 75. It was relating to our
24 meeting on the 11th of July, I suppose at 1530 hours, and then again on
25 Thursday, on page 89, it was suggested that Srebrenica was an
1 exceptionally important campaign - these are literally the words used by
2 the Prosecutor - and that there must have been some talk between the two
3 of us about such an important campaign. What was the situation on other
4 fronts and to what extent was Srebrenica important? In other words, what
5 was your priority? Which was more dangerous?
6 A. As a witness, I can say that my priority was the police forces
7 relating and connected to the Sarajevo battle-field. That was the
8 situation in the Serbian part of Sarajevo and the Romanija Corps. At the
9 time, the Muslim forces launched an offensive in order to break through
10 the defence lines controlled by the Serbian side. There was danger every
11 day that these lines would be broken through and that it would result to
12 a real massacre of the Serbian population in the Serbian part of Sarajevo
13 protected by the Serbian defenders.
14 My role in the staff at Pale -- and the staff in Pale was anyway
15 in -- set up due to the fact that the state of an imminent threat of war
16 was declared in the area, I believe that I and the majority of my
17 colleagues didn't know anything else and that Srebrenica just popped up
18 out of nowhere. But I personally was involved in the Sarajevo
19 battle-field due to the fact that the situation was very difficult, and
20 it was particularly difficult at the connecting point between the
21 Herzegovina Corps and the SRK, where the ministry forces of MUP were
22 resubordinated to VRS, most often the PJP companies of the Ministry of
23 the Interior. The terrain there was very difficult and not easily
24 defendable, and very often they managed to break through our defence
25 positions and then we had to retrieve them again and again. So the
1 situation affecting both the army and the civilians was very serious
2 because the offensive launched by the Muslims was very serious because it
3 was directed towards Ilijas and also the western part held by the Serbs.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D9121 in
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. While we are waiting, General, what was the strategic
8 significance of preserving the Serbian Sarajevo? Can you make a
9 comparison between it and any other battle-field and what would the fall
10 of Sarajevo entail?
11 A. It is difficult to make any comparisons of the sort because it is
12 a densely populated area, lots of civilians, approximately
13 150.000 Sarajevo Serbs would be forced to become subject of exodus and
14 massacre because the position for arranging for an evacuation was
15 extremely difficult and the fall of any municipality would have a domino
16 effect on the fall of other municipalities as well and eventually a
17 terrible plight of the Serb civilians of Sarajevo.
18 Q. General, I don't have the Serbian version. This is the foreign
19 service of SRNA agency. The date is the 7th of July, 1995. The first,
20 the second, the third piece of news is:
21 [In English] "... Lukavica were under fierce Muslim heavy
22 machine-gun fire --"
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you start again.
24 THE ACCUSED: Quoting, Excellency?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I asked you to start the quotation because
1 you -- in the first part you overlapped with your -- with the translation
2 of your B/C/S words.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [In English] "In two-day Muslim attacks on Serb Sarajevo, five
5 civilians were killed and four wounded, announced the Information Service
6 of the Army of Republika Srpska headquarters. Grbavica and Lukavica were
7 under fierce Muslim heavy machine-gun fire, while Muslim snipers opened
8 fire at the Serb communities of Rajlovac, Ilidza, Grbavica, the
9 Ilidza-Vogosca and Pale-Sarajevo roads."
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And then it goes on to say about the Sarajevo battle-field being
12 in jeopardy. Then in the second piece of news it says that the Muslim
13 offensive had failed. And in the third report it is said that
14 3.000 Muslim fighters had been killed during the two-day offensive and
15 that, on that day, another hundred of them were killed in Trnovo below
17 Can you tell us this connecting point between the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the Herzegovina Corps, where was it located
20 A. There's a small place called Trnovo and the defence positions
21 were above it on the mountain. It was a very forbidding terrain, both in
22 terms of launching attacks and defending it. In that particular area the
23 Muslim forces attacked with the intention of breaking through the defence
24 positions and caused the fall of one of most important municipalities
25 which would probably create panic in the neighbouring municipality and
1 facilitate the fall of the Serb civilians in the area. MUP forces, i.e.,
2 PJP companies, were often involved in the actions but they were
3 subordinated to the VRS. But at all times there was insufficient forces
4 to carry out that so we faced both successes and unsuccessful operation.
5 We sometimes managed to close our ranks and invest superhuman efforts in
6 order to prevent the fall that would be followed by an exodus and a
7 massacre of the civilian population.
8 Q. Thank you, General.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this exhibit
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3756, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I can't follow this on
14 a day-by-day basis because I don't have time. Can we have 1D9122 now,
15 dated the 13th of July.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Yet again, General, the first news reported here concerns
18 Sarajevo. I'll read this out in English.
19 [In English] "Sarajevo - Muslim artillery attacked Serb positions
20 in the north and north-west sections of the Sarajevo front - this being
21 true especially for the areas of Vogosca and Srednje. The Muslims
22 shelled residential buildings in Grbavica, though without causing
24 [Interpretation] Is this consistent with your knowledge and
25 recollection of these events?
1 A. By all means. Since I was a member of the staff at Pale
2 specifically charged with the Sarajevo battle-front, I was well informed
3 and was eye-witness of artillery and infantry attacks day and night, of
4 the assaults by the Muslim forces wishing to bring about the fall of the
5 Serb positions. The SRNA agency reports on this again. This strategic
6 axis from Central Bosnia in the direction of Sarajevo was another line of
7 attack, Vogosca, et cetera, are also being mentioned. At one point in
8 time the lines were broken through; however, as far as I can remember, it
9 was precisely the special brigade forces that managed to counter these
10 forces that had by this time entered deep into the territory. They
11 managed to repel the attack and literally save the lives of tens of
12 thousands of inhabitants of Ilijas, Vogosca, Srednje, and the entire area
13 there. This report from the SRNA agency substantiates this, and of
14 course my memory of this is very clear because I was engaged on this
15 score. We were mustering the forces of the staff both in terms of the
16 possible evacuation and combat to prevent any falling of the positions.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted?
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. There is news concerning Srebrenica here as well, but you did say
21 you weren't involved in this, although they are listing two or three
22 pieces of news there.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not quite sure of the purpose of that comment.
24 JUDGE KWON: Was that a question?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I was precisely trying to
1 explain why I wasn't putting this question to the General here, because
2 he was informed about the events in Sarajevo. It was for the benefit of
3 the parties that I said that there is news here concerning Srebrenica as
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay --
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: I just don't think he needs to explain to the
8 witness why he's not asking a question and build into his explanation the
9 suggestion again that you weren't informed about Srebrenica.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree.
11 We'll admit this.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3757, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can we now look at 1D9123. Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, sir, kindly look at the third paragraph that I'll read
17 out in English.
18 [In English] "Sarajevo - Muslim units continued opening artillery
19 and sniper fire at residential areas of Srpsko Sarajevo, reported the
20 general headquarters of VRS Information Service. In the RS Army
21 Herzegovina Corps zone of responsibility, Muslim units used howitzer and
22 120-millimetre mortars against Serb lines of defence in Brdo and
23 Hotovlje, in the Kalinovik war-zone. Muslim units opened machine-gun
24 fire at Ravnice in the Mostarsko-Nevesinjski war-zone ..." and so on.
25 And there are other reports from the -- another battle-field.
1 There are a lot of reports and it seems that another battle-field was
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
4 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I can see how to some extent this is
6 justified by the cross about what he was focusing on at the time and
7 whether he would have discussed Srebrenica, but it's a massively leading
8 way - I haven't objected up until now - to just read out these documents
9 and then ask him if that confirms with what he knew or if this is
10 correct. It would be very easy for him to just ask what the situation
11 was on this date or that date in Sarajevo, rather than reading out a SRNA
12 report and saying: Is that right?
13 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think he's conformed with
14 your practice by establishing as a general matter that the witness was
15 familiar with all of the events that were going on in Sarajevo. And in
16 order to put to him these documents so they can be admitted, I don't
17 think he is limited to asking him a broad question but can show him the
18 document and ask how that tallies with his understanding of the
19 situation. Unfortunately, because the document is not in Serbian, he has
20 to read it to the witness otherwise the witness wouldn't appreciate its
22 JUDGE KWON: About there are other reports of the battle-field,
23 there are a lot of reports, it seems that another battle-field was
24 active. That was --
25 THE ACCUSED: It was my interpretation not to read the entire
1 paragraph --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it was unnecessary and leading as well.
3 THE ACCUSED: I apologise, but in order to save some time because
4 the full paragraph talks about other battle-fields. Can it be admitted?
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll allow the question about Sarajevo. I'm
8 not sure if the witness has answered the question.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he wasn't able to put in an
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, the information about the combat in and around Sarajevo
13 contained here, is it consistent with your own experience?
14 A. The news reported on by SRNA, I believe, is accurate. It also
15 serves to confirm my own testimony to the effect that there was an
16 offensive launched against the Serb positions and forces in every corner
17 of every municipality of the Serb Sarajevo day and night. This
18 specifically refers to the Herzegovina Corps which was under heavy
19 artillery attack by the Muslim forces. They used the heaviest of
20 calibres. They used sniper fire, and in that they were particularly
21 dangerous and skilful. They had quite a few sharpshooters. The sniper
22 fire was making the lives of civilians in Grbavica and other urban areas
23 particularly difficult. Those who were in the area of Herzegovina Corps
24 around Trnovo and Treskavica, aside from infantry attacks, they were
25 under constant artillery fire from the Muslim forces with all types of
1 calibre. There was also mortar fire, as can be seen here, et cetera. In
2 that particular area I said that this was the point where the Herzegovina
3 Corps and the SRK were linked up. This is where the MUP forces were
4 present and they were resubordinated to the VRS. There was a great
5 effort to prevent the Serb lines from being broken through and falling
6 because that would have resulted in a large exodus and massacre of the
7 civilian population in the area.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3758, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D9125, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay, Your Honours, I'm going to object again.
16 There was some discussion, as I said, about what the focus would have
17 been during this time when he was meeting with Mr. Karadzic. I don't
18 think that that justifies a re-direct which includes - as Mr. Robinson
19 basically admitted just a few pages earlier in the transcript - an
20 opportunity to shove in a whole bunch of documents that they chose not to
21 put in in direct on the Sarajevo front. He's made his point --
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
23 Mr. Karisik, if you could excuse yourself for a moment. We need
24 to discuss something in your absence.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE KWON: During the cross-examination the witness, when asked
2 by you about the Srebrenica event, he said he didn't know because he was
3 involved in the Sarajevo front. Is it not legitimate on the part of the
4 Defence to put something about Sarajevo?
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I agree that it does, Your Honour, and that's what
6 I said in the beginning. But what I don't think it does justify and is
7 improper, goes beyond the scope of the re-direct for the cross, is to go
8 into everything this witness knows about Sarajevo and to do a full
9 Sarajevo direct which they chose not to do in the beginning. I didn't
10 cross him on what was going on in Sarajevo. The witness has said, "I
11 focused on Sarajevo," and they've shown him some documents which I didn't
12 object to. But I think we're now going way beyond the scope of what's
13 triggered by the cross, and it's just an effort to now put in a lot of
14 media articles that they didn't make as part of the statement -- well,
15 some that were probably but were excluded because they weren't discussed
16 and weren't dealt with live in the beginning, which is the way it should
17 have been handled.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Really, we had no intention
20 of even discussing this topic until Mr. Nicholls' cross-examination
21 when -- now we're trying to corroborate the fact what the witness said
22 about being engaged in Sarajevo, that there was a lot going on there.
23 But if -- we're also concerned because we want to basically go through
24 the time through, let's say, the 19th or the 20th when prisoners were
25 being executed and events in Srebrenica were happening. But if the
1 Prosecution would agree that those articles can be admitted, we'd have a
2 few more of them. That would be a good compromise for us because it
3 would save us some time and then they wouldn't -- we wouldn't have to put
4 questions about the events in Sarajevo to the witness. So if they're
5 willing to agree that the remaining articles for this period can be
6 admitted, perhaps that's the best solution.
7 JUDGE KWON: That's the crux of the Prosecution's objection.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour, and --
9 MR. ROBINSON: I was just going to say that I thought their
10 objection was he's getting into too many details about Sarajevo. This
11 way we can avoid his knowledge of those details and yet make our point.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I am objecting to the articles coming in. Of
13 course I don't agree to that.
14 The other point is, it's not even a real contradiction of what my
15 cross was. I never said you didn't discuss anything about Sarajevo. I
16 never said nothing was going on in Sarajevo. I never said there was no
17 combat in Sarajevo in my cross. What I -- the point of my cross was that
18 it -- I was putting to him that it was incredible that during the entire
19 Srebrenica operation you don't discuss it once. His response was: Well,
20 I was so focused on Sarajevo the whole time. That's why I didn't object
21 in the beginning to some point showing that there were things going on in
22 Sarajevo. But I don't believe I've opened the door now to the Sarajevo
23 case for half of July coming in through this witness.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is of the view that you
1 dealt with Sarajevo thing already sufficiently, so I would like you to
2 move on to another topic.
3 Shall we bring in the witness.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. While
5 the witness is being brought in, I'd like to say this: The reports
6 reaching the general public day in and day out show the importance of
7 Srebrenica at the time. It was marginal. There were a great many other
8 things that were important.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Objection.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not evidence. I'm
11 explaining why this is important. Mr. Nicholls did manage to have
12 another document admitted by advancing additional submissions; why
13 shouldn't I do the same?
14 JUDGE KWON: You could have used some documents already in
15 evidence instead of tendering the news articles.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to another topic, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will. But just for the sake of
19 the transcript, Your Excellencies, I do not consider these to be
20 newspaper articles but news agency reports.
21 Can we have that document that we had on our screens admitted?
22 JUDGE KWON: It was not dealt with, was it? So please move on to
23 another topic, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karisik, my apologies. I forgot the sitting
2 schedule I referred to earlier on, but we'll stick to it from now on.
3 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Bear with me for a moment, please.
8 I have to change the order of things.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. General, sir, I'll have one final question for you, then. I've
11 had to change the way I imagine my examination.
12 General, did you ever report to me about any unlawful killings or
13 executions in Srebrenica after its fall?
14 A. No, Mr. President.
15 Q. Thank you, General, sir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I give up on all the other
17 questions that I had, Your Excellency.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Karisik. On behalf of the
20 Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Please
21 have a safe journey back home.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE KWON: If you could call your next witness.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. Our next witness is
1 Nenad Deronjic.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE KWON: Could the witness make the solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: NENAD DERONJIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Deronjic. Please be seated and make
10 yourself comfortable.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Deronjic, I
13 must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here
14 at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule you
15 may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution,
16 or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
17 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
18 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
19 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might
20 have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an
21 answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer
22 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
23 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal
24 would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would
25 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence,
1 save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
2 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Deronjic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Deronjic.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. Let us make a pause between my question and your answers. Can
11 you tell us if you testified before this Tribunal in the Blagojevic case?
12 A. Yes, I did testify in the Blagojevic case before this Tribunal.
13 Q. Thank you. In the course of proofing, did you have an
14 opportunity to listen to the recording of your evidence in that case?
15 A. Yes, I did have that opportunity and I did listen to my testimony
16 in the Blagojevic case.
17 Q. Thank you. Does the transcript and its contents faithfully
18 reflect what you said at the time or do you need to make any corrections?
19 A. It fully reflects what I said. That said, I would have a
20 correction to make. It has to do with my statement about the engagement
21 of the 2nd Company of the special police unit in Srebrenica. I said at
22 the time that the entire 2nd Company of the special police unit was
23 engaged in the territory of Srebrenica; however, not the entire company
24 was there. One part of the 2nd Company was in Srebrenica, whereas the
25 other part of the 2nd Company of the special police unit was deployed
1 elsewhere. I don't know where.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D6909.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Besides that correction about the 2nd Company and its one half
6 being in Srebrenica and its other half being somewhere else, does
7 everything else faithfully reflect what you stated?
8 A. Everything else that I stated at the time faithfully reflects
9 what I meant, so that would be that, that would be my statement.
10 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the
11 same as were put to you by the Defence, the Prosecutor, and the Judges,
12 would your answers essentially be the same?
13 A. Essentially, my answers would be the same as I provided in the
14 Blagojevic case.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this transcript into
17 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we would actually be tendering this
19 transcript under seal and it would contain the confidential version and
20 there's a public transcript that has been uploaded in e-court as 1D09041.
21 JUDGE KWON: So you are tendering two versions, public version
22 and confidential version?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE KWON: And you're tendering any associated exhibits?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. There's one associated
1 exhibit, 1D6946 and it was not on our 65 ter list. We would ask that it
2 be added as we hadn't made a final decision as to what documents we would
3 use with this witness at the time.
4 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
6 JUDGE KWON: Where is that log-book referred to in the transcript
8 MR. ROBINSON: 8915.
9 JUDGE KWON: I take it it's to be -- 8194?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I see the mistake, yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Any objection, Mr. Costi?
13 MR. COSTI: No objection.
14 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit both versions of the transcript as well
15 as the associated exhibits.
16 Shall we assign the numbers.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, the under seal transcript will
18 be Exhibit D3759, under seal. The public version will be Exhibit D3760.
19 And 1D6946 will be Exhibit D3761.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I'm going to
22 read a short summary of Mr. Deronjic's evidence contained in the
23 transcript that has just been admitted.
24 [In English] Nenad Deronjic is the first of three witnesses who
25 will testify about scheduled incident E1, the alleged execution of
1 15 Bosnian Muslim men from Srebrenica on the bank of the Jadar River near
2 Konjevic Polje on the morning of 13th of July, 1995. Prosecution
3 Witness KDZ065, whose evidence was admitted in this case in writing as
4 Exhibit P336, claims that Nenad Deronjic was the one -- was one of the
5 four persons who committed that execution. Mr. Deronjic, who worked as a
6 police officer in Bratunac, has testified that he never participated in
7 any such execution and that he was not even working in the Konjevic Polje
8 area on 13th of July, 1995. He has testified that beginning in the
9 afternoon of 12th of July, 1995, he was assigned to work in the
10 Srebrenica police station and was working in Srebrenica on 13th of July
11 at the time Witness KDZ065 claimed -- claims he was in Konjevic Polje.
12 At that moment I don't have questions for Mr. Deronjic.
13 MR. COSTI: Your Honour, I just have one comment. I should have
14 objected before. The accused started introduction of this witness by
15 making comments about this is the first of three witnesses. That is
16 clearly not part of his summary and not part of the testimony of this
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Mr. Deronjic, your evidence in this case has been admitted in
20 writing, and that is through your testimony in the earlier case in lieu
21 of your oral testimony. Now you will be cross-examined by the
22 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
23 Yes, Mr. Costi.
24 MR. COSTI: Good morning, Mr. President, and everyone else in the
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Costi:
2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Deronjic. Now, in your written testimony just
3 admitted you said that you left Konjevic Polje and went to Srebrenica on
4 the 12th of July; right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, you also said that in Srebrenica you were tasked with
7 regular police activities; correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And in your testimony you also agreed that in Srebrenica there
10 was no combat activity from the 12th of July on; correct?
11 A. In the centre of Srebrenica where I was there was none.
12 Q. Finally, you also agreed in your testimony that by the afternoon
13 or evening hours of the 12th of July, Muslims from Srebrenica were
14 breaking through the area around Konjevic Polje, Ravni Buljim, and you
15 agree that that was a combat zone; correct?
16 A. I don't remember having stated that about combat activities in
17 that region. There may have been some, but --
18 Q. Well, let me read you back what you said at page 34 of your
19 Blagojevic testimony and on line 9. You were asked:
20 "Well, on the afternoon/evening hours of the 12th of July,
21 Muslims from the Srebrenica -- from Srebrenica, armed Muslims, were
22 breaking through the area around Konjevic Polje and that was a combat
23 zone. Were you aware of that?"
24 And you answered:
1 And then you were asked:
2 "So you're aware that Konjevic Polje has become a combat zone
3 shortly after the time that you left it. So you must have been relieved
4 to have been able to get the assignment to go down to Srebrenica, which
5 was not a combat zone?"
6 And your answer was:
7 "You could put it that way."
8 So do you agree that you said - and you stand by what you
9 said - that in the area of Konjevic Polje at that time there was combat
10 activity; right?
11 A. It is possible that there was a combat zone there; however,
12 during that period of time, if I had been given a task to go to
13 Konjevic Polje I should have gone there. If I had been ordered to go
14 there, I would have had to obey that order. I would have had to go
16 Q. I was not asking whether you were ordered to go there. I was
17 simply asking - as soon as I have your attention. I was simply asking
18 whether you knew that there was combat activity at that time in that
19 part, in the area of Konjevic Polje? And you answered "yes" in the
20 Blagojevic case. So do you stand by what you said in the Blagojevic
22 A. Well, I don't know what you mean. How do you mean that I knew?
23 Nobody told me anything. I was not in charge. I was not a commander.
24 Nobody informed me about any combat activities. Nobody was accountable
25 to me. I was just an ordinary policeman who did his job. As a regular
1 policeman, who was it that should have informed me about combat
2 activities ongoing there? I suppose that there were combat activities
3 going on there because the troops were headed in that direction. They
4 passed through that area.
5 Q. Very well. You suppose that there was combat activity. You sort
6 of stand by what you said in the Blagojevic case, do you?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Well, very well.
9 MR. COSTI: Now can I have now just been admitted D3761, which is
10 the July log-book of the Bratunac SJB.
11 Q. Now, you discuss this document to a large extent in your
12 testimony in Blagojevic, so I don't want to spend too much time on this
13 and I would just, mainly for the benefit of the Chamber, repeat a few
14 basic points about it, of your testimony about it.
15 MR. COSTI: That shouldn't be this one. It should be at P -- it
16 should be an Exhibit Number, the one just we admitted. It used to be
17 65 ter 1 --
18 JUDGE KWON: D -- [overlapping speakers] --
19 MR. COSTI: Here we are. So if we can just see the first page
20 for the moment and turn it.
21 Q. Now, the first row indicates the date of the month; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now if we go to then the second page, you see that the -- one,
24 two, three, four -- the fifth row, it is you, that is your name; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, unfortunately we cannot see the first page now, but if we
2 look from -- towards the end it says Srebrenica SJB Srebrenica. Right?
3 Towards the right side in correspondent of your role?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This indicates that you were at the SJB Srebrenica from - and
6 tell me if I'm wrong - the 21st of July onward? This document says that
7 you were applied to the SJB -- to the SJB Srebrenica from the 21st of
8 July onward; right?
9 A. That's correct. From the 21st I was assigned to the police
10 station in Srebrenica which is where I did my police job. That's where I
11 was deployed. That's where I was assigned to.
12 Q. Very well. So if we go backwards, the nine days before, again on
13 your role we can read bd, bd, bd for each day until one day when it says
14 08 BD. And these are the days from the 12th of July to the 20th of July;
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And you explained in your testimony in Blagojevic BD stands for
18 combat operation; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Now, if we can go back to the first page, and before we go there,
21 you said in your statement, in your testimony, that Mirko Peric, a
22 colleague of yours from Bratunac was in Konjevic Polje on the 11th and
23 12th of July; right?
24 Sir, before reading, my question is: Is it correct that you
25 testified that Mirko Peric was in Konjevic Polje on the 11th and
1 12th of July?
2 A. Mirko Peric was in Konjevic Polje. I don't know whether he was
3 at the check-point or somewhere else --
4 Q. But he was in Konjevic Polje --
5 A. -- but he was in Konjevic Polje.
6 Q. Very well. Now, can you tell me if we look at this document
7 again, you see that Mirko Peric is one of the names. And if you can look
8 at the 11th and 12th of July, can you tell this Court what the document
10 A. It says "bd" here for the 12th, that's combat operations. And
11 then we see one, two, three, four, five, and then 18, and then combat
12 operations on the 18th, 19th, and 20th, and 21st.
13 Q. So do you agree that while he was in Konjevic Polje, Mirko Peric,
14 on the 11th and 12th of July, he was marked on this log-book as "bd,"
15 combat operation; right?
16 A. I would not like to comment on Mirko Peric. However, if you
17 insist, I still don't know what I can say about him. I know what I did,
18 where I was. I don't want to say anything about Mirko Peric. I really
19 don't feel comfortable.
20 Q. I'm asking you to talk about the document, not about Mirko Peric.
21 Does the document say on the 11th and 12th of July, Mirko Peric was in
22 combat operation, bd? It's very simple.
23 A. That's what it says in this document. As I've just told you on
24 the 11th and --
25 Q. Thank you. You answered my question.
1 Now, as you said in your statement and your testimony, you were a
2 member of the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP; right?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And you said that you were activated as a member of the 2nd PJP
5 around 12 -- of the 12th of July; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 MR. COSTI: Can we have Exhibit P5136, please.
8 Q. Now, you will see appearing on your screen a document which is a
9 daily events report of the Zvornik CJB of the 14th of July. Now, if we
10 go to the second page and if we read point 5 of the second page, point 5
12 "Due to infiltration of enemy military formations from Srebrenica
13 into the zone of the Zvornik CJB and areas of Konjevic Polje - Cerska,
14 Han Pogled, Dzafin Kamen, Snagovo, Marcici and other places at risk, the
15 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th Companies of the Zvornik CJB are engaged. In
16 co-ordinated action with the police from Doboj, Bijeljina, and Pale, as
17 well as the VRS, they are laying ambushes."
18 Now, do you agree that this document says that the 2nd PJP, so
19 your company, was engaged in combat activities; right?
20 A. According to this document, it says in it that it is correct,
21 i.e., that the 2nd Company was engaged in the tasks indicated herein.
22 Q. And there is no indication in this report that the 2nd PJP was
23 engaged in regular police activity in Srebrenica; right?
24 A. You're right; however, I've just explained to you what I did and
25 that was that one part of the 2nd Company - which may be proven in
1 several ways - and that is one half of the 2nd Company was in Srebrenica
2 and I was with them. And it is also possible that the other half or the
3 rest of the 2nd Company was in this area. This document was shown to me
4 when I testified in the Blagojevic case as well.
5 Q. Let me show you another document that was also shown to you
6 before which is P04935.
7 MR. COSTI: And here we need the B/C/S page 2 and the English
8 page 1 at the bottom.
9 Q. And again at point 5 it explains what you just said in a way, so:
10 "... acting upon President Karadzic ... which was conveyed to us
11 today, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP shall be dispatched to
12 Srebrenica with the task to secure facilities of vital importance."
13 And then it continues and it says below:
14 "A platoon of this company will lie ambush in Ravni Buljim since
15 the Muslim group was spotted fleeing along that axis."
16 So we do know where the other half of the 2nd PJP was and my
17 question to you is quite simple. I'm suggesting you were part of that
18 platoon who was deployed arresting and capturing Muslims in the area of
19 Ravni Buljim, including Konjevic Polje. Is it correct?
20 A. This is not correct. It will never be correct. It is absolutely
21 not correct. Me and my company, which consisted of two platoons, we were
22 engaged, but we never moved from the centre of Srebrenica which stretched
23 from the football-pitch and the check-points that were set up at the
24 entrance into the city. We were there for the whole of the nine days.
25 We never moved from there.
1 Q. Now, let me try to explore a little bit more the steps of your
2 assignment to the Srebrenica SJB.
3 MR. COSTI: Can I have 65 ter 04059, please.
4 Q. Now, you will see appearing on your screen an order from the --
5 Dragomir Vasic, head of the Zvornik CJB on 15 of July. Now, this order
6 is sent to the Srebrenica SJB, and at point 5, which should be probably
7 on page 2 of the B/C/S --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I would
9 say that this is not correct. It starts on page 1.
10 MR. COSTI: Thank you.
11 Q. Now, at point 5, and I read the English:
12 "In the course of the day, the chief of Srebrenica SJB,
13 Petko Pavlovic, will send the chief of the Zvornik CJB a list of
14 policemen from Srebrenica who are currently working in Zvornik CJB
16 And then at point 8 it says:
17 "The chief of the Srebrenica SJB must urgently assemble a strong
18 police squad from policemen from all stations of the centre who are
19 originally from Srebrenica."
20 Now, you said in your testimony that you were applied to the
21 Srebrenica SJB because you used to be a policeman from Srebrenica; right?
22 A. That's right. However, on the 12th I was sent to carry out a
23 task as a member of the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP. After the
24 completion of that mission I was transferred to the police station in
25 Srebrenica because that's the police station that I had worked in before
1 the war.
2 Q. So do you agree that in this document the Zvornik CJB is in the
3 process of selecting or identifying the policemen that will then be
4 assigned to the Srebrenica SJB? I'm not asking whether you were there on
5 the 12th or not. I'm asking this document confirms what you said and is
6 plain -- and the Zvornik CJB is in the process of identifying the
7 policemen from Srebrenica; right?
8 A. I agree with that. Why wouldn't I?
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. COSTI: Your Honour, can I have this document admitted?
11 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6427.
14 MR. COSTI: I would like to see another document, 65 ter 25306
15 [Realtime transcript read in error "25036"].
16 Q. Now, this is an information report from the Srebrenica SJB to the
17 Zvornik CJB on the 16th of July and it's signed by Petko Pavlovic, which
18 is the chief of Srebrenica SJB.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you check the number.
21 MR. COSTI: Let me check.
22 MR. ROBINSON: I have it on my screen 25306.
23 MR. COSTI: Yeah. You had -- should be 25306. I'm sorry. I
24 must have read the wrong number, 306. Yeah. I apologise.
25 Q. Now, if we look at this document, it said:
1 "Pursuant to your dispatch mentioned above ... we hereby submit
2 to you a list of police employees who worked at the Srebrenica SJB until
3 the eruption of the war ..."
4 And if you look at number 3, is your name, isn't it?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. So do you agree that here, the Srebrenica SJB, Pavlovic is
7 responding to the document we saw one second ago and is providing him
8 with a list of policemen that used to work in the Srebrenica SJB before
9 the beginning of the war. Right?
10 A. Right.
11 MR. COSTI: And could we have this document admitted as well?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6428, Your Honours.
14 MR. COSTI: Now the third document I would like to show you is
16 Q. And this one is the order of the Zvornik CJB on 16th of July,
17 which reads:
18 "Due to the need for establishment of a police station in
19 Srebrenica, upon its liberation, and pursuant to the approval of the
20 Deputy Minister of the Interior, I hereby issue the following order.
21 "The below listed policemen who had previously worked at the
22 Srebrenica SJB are to be sent immediately, by the 21st of July, 1995, at
23 the latest, to the Srebrenica SJB, where the station chief, in
24 co-ordination with the officer in charge of the Zvornik CJB, shall assign
25 them to their duties and tasks."
1 And number 3, it's your name, Nenad Deronjic. Correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. So we saw the three passages. At the end, the CJB finally
4 ordered you to be sent and to report to Srebrenica, so -- correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Finally, one last document, which is 65 --
7 MR. COSTI: Sorry, Your Honour, I will ask this document to be
8 admitted, please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6429, Your Honours.
11 MR. COSTI: One last which is 65 ter 25304.
12 Q. Now, this is a MUP administrative instruction issued on the
13 18 June 1996 for administrative purposes. And it reads:
14 "Pursuant to paragraph 3, Article 73 of the State Administration
15 Law ... and Articles 12 and 15 of the Employment Relation Law, the
16 minister of internal affairs of Republika Srpska issued this decision.
17 "Nenad ... Deronjic is to be assigned to the duties and tasks of
18 the police officer in Zvornik CJB Srebrenica police station."
19 And then it continues:
20 "... commencing on the 21st of July, 1995."
21 So also this document, you agree, confirms that you were
22 reporting and submitted to the Srebrenica SJB from the 21st July 1995;
24 A. Correct. This decision confirms that as of the 21st of July,
25 1995, I was to be transferred to the Srebrenica public security station
1 to work as a policeman. As I said, I was discharging my duties in
2 Srebrenica between the 12th and the 21st.
3 MR. COSTI: Now, can I have this document admitted, Your Honour,
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6430, Your Honours.
7 MR. COSTI:
8 Q. Do you agree, don't you, that all the documents that we have seen
9 so far, starting from the log-book all the way to the administrative
10 instruction from 1996, indicate that you were in combat operation from
11 the 12th of July until the 20th of July, and then you were in Srebrenica
12 from the 21st of July on within the Srebrenica SJB. Is it correct?
13 A. That is correct, but if I may clarify. You're trying to say that
14 I was in combat between the 12th and the 21st, which means that you think
15 that I wasn't in Srebrenica but elsewhere engaged in combat. If you
16 engage a PJP company, regardless of what the assignment is, they always
17 state "combat operation" without going into any specifics. The simplest
18 way is just to enter the phrase "combat operation," which means that this
19 specific company was engaged in doing specific jobs. I see what you're
20 trying to say, that the company where I was --
21 Q. I'm not trying to saying anything. I'm saying that this document
22 indicate only that you were in combat operation, and then -- then you
23 were at the police in Srebrenica from the 21st. That before that, that
24 is your words, saying that you were in the part of the 2nd PJP that in
25 Srebrenica, but I'm suggesting that you were not in that part but in
1 Konjevic Polje together with Mirko Peric who is also marked in the
2 log-book as bd, combat operation, on the same days. So I'm asking you
3 directly then: Were you in Konjevic Polje during those days, not
4 necessarily applied to the check-point, but in Konjevic Polje with the
5 2nd PJP?
6 A. No. I explained where I was and what I was doing in the period
7 between the 12th and the 21st which is the time where I never left the
8 inner part of Srebrenica town.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. COSTI: I believe it is probably time for the break,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 MR. COSTI: So we can break now.
14 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at
15 quarter past 1.00.
16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Costi. Please continue.
19 MR. COSTI: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Can I have 65 ter 24716A, please.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, there is just one last document I want to
22 discuss with you, and you had discussed this document already in your
23 Blagojevic testimony. It is a Srebrenica SJB log-book.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I'm afraid it hasn't been released, Mr. Costi.
25 MR. COSTI: Can we move on and get it uploaded later? Okay. I
1 move to the next question and then -- can we go into private session,
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, I just -- I think that that document
5 might have been released under 24716 without an A, but if you check
6 that ...
7 MR. COSTI: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Robinson.
8 Q. Now, as I was saying, you discussed this document also during
9 your Blagojevic testimony, and apart from all the other documents that we
10 have seen till now, this is the only one that might suggest that you were
11 in Srebrenica on the 12th and the 13th.
12 MR. COSTI: Now can we go on page 4 of the English and the B/C/S,
14 Q. Now, if you look at this page, at the bottom, it says that you on
15 the 12th of July were on duty from 19 hours to 24 hours. Right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And if we go to page 6 of both B/C/S and English, it says that
18 you were on duty on the 13th from 7 -- 19 hours to 7, so from the evening
19 of the 13th until the morning of the 14th; right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And if we go to page 7 of the B/C/S and 8 of the English, we see
22 that you were on duty between the -- from the 7 in the morning of the
23 13th until the 7 in the afternoon of the 13th, even it is the following
24 page it still refers on the 13th of July. So in other words, on the --
25 after being on shift during the night of the 12th, according to this
1 log-book you had a 24-hour shift from 7 in the morning of the 13th all
2 the way to the 7 in the morning of the 14th. Is this correct? You had a
3 24-hour shift after a 12-hour or a seven- or eight-hour shift the night
5 A. Yes, it is possible.
6 Q. Now, if we look at this entry on the B/C/S side, if we can zoom
7 in a little bit, at the one on -- the one that we have in front of us
8 now, you will see that the time between 07 to 19 of the 13 of July has
9 been altered, and this is the time when you were seen in Konjevic Polje
10 shooting at Muslim prisoners; right?
11 A. I don't know on what basis you claim that I was shooting --
12 Q. I will get to that.
13 A. -- how was I seen from 7 to 19 --
14 Q. I will get to tell you the basis upon which in one minute. But
15 what I'm asking you now is: Do you agree, as you did in Blagojevic, that
16 this has been altered?
17 A. One can see that this had been altered, but I don't know who did
18 that. I don't know who had access to this document. So anyone could
19 have done it. You can see here that it says 07 to 19 corrected
20 obviously. I don't know who did it or why and who had access to this
22 Let me just tell you one more thing if possible. At the
23 beginning, on the cover you can see that there is something written and
24 this is my handwriting. You can ask a graphology expertise to be done on
25 this, but I can confirm that this is my handwriting and you can compare
1 it with my signature if you wish.
2 MR. COSTI: We can go on the first page is what he said.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature, roster
4 for Srebrenica SJB, 12.07.1995, and beneath you can see my signature and
5 a graphologist can confirm that.
6 MR. COSTI:
7 Q. And why is your signature on the first page of this SJB
8 Srebrenica log-book?
9 A. Well, I don't know. It just happened like that. There is no
10 significance to that. I perhaps just signed it. It's irrelevant.
11 Q. So let's move on to another topic, or rather, to the same topic
12 from another perspective.
13 MR. COSTI: Can we go, please, into private session, please.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President --
15 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering that?
16 MR. COSTI: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour. Yes, we tender this
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we don't object to this. We
20 think this is an important document. But I would like to ask at this
21 point so we can understand, is it the Prosecution's case that, as they
22 have spent the last half an hour establishing that he was not in
23 Srebrenica at all during this period from the 12th to the 21st, and if
24 that's the case, what is the explanation for all of the unaltered entries
25 in this log-book for 12, 13, 14, et cetera? I think it would help us to
1 know that so we can determine what other witnesses, if any, are necessary
2 to bring to establish this point which is very important to us.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Costi, can you assist us?
4 MR. COSTI: Yeah. Your Honour, our case is that the witness was
5 in Konjevic Polje at the time on the 13th of July. Rather than that --
6 and that from the 21st indeed was assigned to the Srebrenica SJB. As to
7 his whereabouts in the meanwhile, it is not clear or known to us but what
8 counts is our case he was there and his effort to show that he was in
9 Srebrenica are not successful.
10 MR. ROBINSON: But all of these entries for the dates -- besides
11 the one that's altered, show that he's in Srebrenica during all that time
12 and that's inconsistent with the Prosecution's case that they've been
13 putting to him so far, that he didn't go to Srebrenica until the 21st.
14 So I would like to know whether or not it's the Prosecution's case that
15 he was in Srebrenica for some of that time or that this book is somehow
16 inaccurate or falsified in its entirety.
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure it's appropriate to discuss this in the
18 presence of the witness, but I don't -- have difficulty following your
19 submission that it would be inconsistent with the Prosecution's case.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Well, the Prosecution was showing all of these
21 documents at the beginning of the cross-examination, showing that it was
22 only on the 21st that he was assigned to --
23 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second.
24 Why don't we excuse the witness for the moment.
25 Mr. Deronjic, if you could excuse yourself for the moment.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE KWON: Let me ask you, Mr. Robinson, simply. Is it your
3 case that it's impossible to go to Konjevic Polje while posted or while
4 being in Srebrenica?
5 MR. ROBINSON: Not at all.
6 JUDGE KWON: Then what is your point, Mr. Robinson?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Our point is that during this time he was assigned
8 in Srebrenica and not in Konjevic Polje. So it's less likely that he
9 would have gone to Konjevic Polje. The Prosecution seems to be arguing
10 that he was assigned to the part of this company who was in combat in the
11 area around Konjevic Polje. And so they presented what I consider to be
12 two conflicting sets of documentation to establish that, one, that he was
13 not part of the group of that company that went to Srebrenica from the
14 12th; and the other that -- this log-book showing that he was in
15 Srebrenica from the 12th. So I would like to know which of those two
16 the -- what is the Prosecution's case as to that because we can bring the
17 chief and the other people from Srebrenica if it's disputed that he was
18 actually one of the men who were working there from the 12th. So it's
19 helpful to us to know exactly what the Prosecution's case is on that.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Costi.
21 MR. COSTI: I would repeat more or less what I just said. Our
22 case is that he was there on the 13th in Konjevic Polje in the morning.
23 Whether at that point he wasn't at that check-point anymore, whether he
24 was assigned to Srebrenica and he drove to Konjevic Polje to commit the
25 crimes is not up to us to say it. Our case is that he was there on the
1 13th and we believe that it was fair to the Defence to -- and to the
2 witness to put him also this document that we consider, generally
3 speaking, are reliable.
4 JUDGE KWON: You are not arguing that, other than this altered
5 part, it was made up or fabricated?
6 MR. COSTI: We argue that in general this document is not
7 unreliable. We don't think it's all fabricated, I agree, Your Honour,
8 but the fact there has been a change at that time shows that the whole
9 document is unreliable in light of all the other documents that we
10 highlighted before.
11 MR. ROBINSON: But if I could just ask what was the point, then,
12 of showing him all these documents to show that he was not in Srebrenica
13 before the 21st of July?
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Costi, can we hear your reply to Mr. Robinson's
16 last point, please.
17 MR. COSTI: Well, first of all, I think the point was to make
18 clear that the formal appointment to the SJB in Srebrenica had been on
19 the 21st. And this is also relevant to the testimony of other witnesses
20 that are going to come in the next days. The second point is that, in
21 any event, the core of the documents that we've seen only unequivocally
22 indicated that he was there from the 21st, while there is a gap of time
23 where he was with the PJP, 2nd PJP. He could have been in one position
24 ambushing Muslims or he could have been with the 2nd PJP deployed
25 apparently in Srebrenica. Now, there is one document which suggests
1 indeed that he was in Srebrenica for at least some of the time. And we
2 believed that although it's not reliable and it doesn't outweigh the rest
3 of the documents it was fair to put it to the witness. It would have
4 been misleading the Chamber if we had just not bring this document up.
5 JUDGE BAIRD: Thanks.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees no difficulty with the line of
8 questions of the Prosecution. We'll continue.
9 Shall we bring in the witness.
10 While the witness is being brought in, the Chamber has considered
11 the issue of Mr. Beara's and Miletic -- General Miletic's evidence. In
12 the circumstances, the Chamber has decided to postpone those witnesses,
13 pending the outcome of the Tolimir appeal to the Appeals Chamber on the
15 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: And I will come back to Keserovic's evidence after
17 this witness's evidence is over.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Costi.
20 MR. COSTI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Can we move, please, in private session.
22 JUDGE KWON: Have we admitted this one? Yes, shall we give the
23 number for this?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6431, Your Honours.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE KWON: How many pages should we admit, Mr. Costi? Oh, yes.
2 MR. COSTI: It should be --
3 JUDGE KWON: Cover page and relevant part --
4 MR. COSTI: Yeah, right, eight pages -- the English is eight
5 pages and the B/C/S should be seven pages, I believe.
6 JUDGE KWON: So we'll admit those pages translated?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Those were 4 and 6, if I remember
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MR. COSTI: It was 4, 6, and 8 of the English and 4, 6, and 7 of
11 the B/C/S, but we also discussed the first -- the cover page, so even
12 page 1 probably should be admitted.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Shall we go to private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 40719 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Deronjic, please continue.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The representative of the
11 Prosecution, when questioning me today, said that this part of the PJP
12 company completely went to Konjevic Polje in order to commit these
13 killings. Now when you showed me this document the only thing that you
14 pointed out are the alterations next to my name. What about the rest of
15 them? What about the others? Does that mean that I was the only one
16 present there? Because I see that the only alteration made was next to
17 my name. What about the other names? Are you claiming that they were
18 there as well or are you saying that I was the only one who was there?
19 MR. COSTI: Let me move on.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
21 MR. COSTI:
22 Q. Miroslav Deronjic is your cousin, isn't he?
23 A. Yes, a distant cousin. We bear the same family name but we are
24 not close family.
25 Q. Now, you gave an interview to the OTP on the 12th March 2001 and
1 there you said that you joined the Bratunac police station in April 1992.
2 Is it correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, you are aware that on the 9th of May, 1992, the village of
5 Glogova was attacked by Bratunac TOs and other Serb forces including
6 police from the Bratunac police station. Is it correct?
7 A. I'm not aware of that. I didn't participate in that, so I don't
8 want to give any comments on it if I don't have to. I wasn't there when
9 it was going on.
10 Q. Right. Let's start from the beginning of the process that led to
11 the attack to Glogova. So the collection of weapons, as you may be
12 aware, weapons were collected from Muslim villages including Glogova. On
13 the 7th of May, you were part of the Serb delegation who collected
14 weapons from villages from Glogova. I'm talking about 1992. Correct?
15 A. No, that's not correct. I didn't go to Glogova at all, nor did I
16 collect any weapons, nor did I go to these Muslims' houses.
17 MR. COSTI: Can we have 65 ter 25333, please.
18 Q. Now, this is a statement that a protected witness in the
19 Milosevic case, B-1701, gave to the Prosecution in March 2002. He
20 describes -- he was from Glogova, he describes all the process that they
21 went through. And at paragraph 10 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 10 which is
22 page 4 of the English and page 4 of the B/C/S. And I start reading. He
23 talks about this negotiation that took place on the 7th of May in the
24 primary school, but I would like more specifically now to state that they
25 took place in front of Mehmed Ibisevic's house which is close to the
1 school. The negotiator on the Muslim side was Ahmo Ibisevic from
2 Glogova, whereas I remember that it was Mico Milosavljevic, and not
3 Milutin as I state in my previous statement, who was with Nenad Deronjic
4 from Magasici village on the Serbian side. The villagers surrendered
5 some weapons that day on the promise that the village would not be
6 attacked, but I surrendered my hunting rifle the next day."
7 So my question for you is: You were part of the Serb delegation
8 during those negotiations where you asked the weapon to be given to you
9 and you promised that Glogova would not be attacked; correct?
10 A. That's not correct. I wasn't a negotiator at all. I can't
11 obviously reason with you. I was never given a managing role by anyone
12 to be in charge of anything. I was an ordinary --
13 Q. Let's forget the word --
14 A. -- policeman. How can I explain to you that I wasn't a platoon
15 commander --
16 Q. Let's forget the word --
17 A. Who would be the one to place me in charge of any negotiations?
18 Q. Let's forget about the word "negotiation." Were you together
19 with Mico Milosavljevic on the 7th of May, meeting Muslims from Glogova
20 and collecting from them weapons with the promise they would not be
22 A. No, I wasn't there. I can't even recall at this time who
23 Mico Milosavljevic is. I wasn't in Glogova at all. At all.
24 MR. COSTI: Can I please have now 65 ter 25330.
25 Q. Now, this is another statement from another Muslim that used to
1 live in Glogova, and this one is actually talking about the attack that
2 took place on the 9th of May. He said that he was hiding in the woods
3 and from there he was witnessing what was happening in some part of
5 MR. COSTI: And if we can go to English page 4 and B/C/S page 4
6 as well, and in English it is where it starts with "shortly after,"
7 whereas the B/C/S is the last two paragraphs of page 4.
8 But I'll read it for the record:
9 "Shortly after that I saw another group of about 15 soldiers
10 walking up the road from the direction of Bratunac. I could see that
11 Miroslav Deronjic and his cousin Nenad Deronjic were among them. They
12 walked past the mosque, they came right up to the bridge. There they
13 stopped and started talking with the group of soldiers already there.
14 All of a sudden everything got a little quiet. I could see that
15 Miroslav Deronjic hugged some of the soldiers there. He was dressed up
16 in a camouflage uniform and he was wearing a green beret.
17 "I had known Miroslav Deronjic very well ..." and then it
18 explains why.
19 Last line:
20 "Similarly, I knew Nenad Deronjic quite well as he was also from
21 the same village of Magasici."
22 Q. And my question for you is: You were in Glogova on the
23 9th of May together with your cousin Miroslav Deronjic during the attack?
24 A. No, that's not correct. I wasn't in Glogova at all at the time.
25 I wasn't there at all. Can I just explain one thing to you?
1 Q. Please.
2 A. The man who gave this statement, I know him well. A year ago I
3 went to obtain a document for him from the municipality. I was on good
4 terms with him and his father. I obtained a piece of paper that he
5 needed and sent to him through his father. So I know this man - I won't
6 say his name - know him well. I obtained a document for him in the
7 municipality and sent it to him through his father --
8 Q. So you're saying --
9 A. -- I wasn't in Glogova in this period of time at all.
10 Q. So you are saying that here we have another witness again that is
11 lying seeing you where you were not?
12 A. I wasn't there. I'm telling you I know this man well. He's a
13 neighbour of mine, and I told you that it was just recently that I got a
14 document for him. I know his father and I see his father every other
15 day. I'm in contact with him.
16 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
18 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To avoid confusion, can we ask the
20 Prosecutor to show us where the house of this witness was because we can
21 tell that he was from the village of Magasici. So where is that house?
22 Is it in Glogova? Where was it that he saw what he states here?
23 MR. COSTI: Your Honour, I don't think we need to go into these
24 details. Although it's not a protected witness, I don't think it's
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow. Just a second.
2 MR. COSTI: Yeah.
3 JUDGE KWON: Is this witness protected?
4 MR. COSTI: No, he's not. But at the same time, I don't think it
5 would be advisable to provide this information although because
6 irrelevant in terms of his testimony because he says in the testimony
7 that he was hiding in the woods so --
8 JUDGE KWON: No, no, I'm asking. This witness's name could be
9 revealed to the --
10 MR. COSTI: Yes it can.
11 JUDGE KWON: -- this witness.
12 MR. COSTI: Yes, it can.
13 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember his father's name?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read -- yes, I know his name.
15 I'm in touch with his father every other day, either in the town of
16 Bratunac or I go to his home in Glogova. I tell you, it was roughly a
17 year ago that I obtained a piece of paper for this gentleman here who
18 gave this statement in the municipality and I sent it to him through his
20 MR. COSTI: Right.
21 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
22 MR. COSTI:
23 Q. So this witness is lying, the other witness was lying. Now, your
24 cousin Miroslav Deronjic, during his testimony in his own case on the
25 30th of September, 2003, at page 68 he was asked who was present during
1 the attack. And he said that you were among those present.
2 A. I wasn't in Glogova at the time. Now, what they stated and how,
3 I can't tell anyone what they should be stating. I wasn't there in that
4 period. I think that I was even away from the police force for a period
5 of time. I had some family business that I had to attend to. I don't
6 know if it was in that period of time or later.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, I have just one last question which is you said
8 in an interview to the MUP of Republika Srpska on the 22nd of April,
9 2003, you were discussing the events in Srebrenica in 1995 and you were
10 talking about the Muslims what moved from Potocari and then you were
12 "Were you aware that Muslim men were killed along the way?"
13 And your answer was:
14 "I was not aware of it at that time but I heard some stories to
15 that effect later."
16 So my question to you is: This was 2003. When did you first
17 hear of mass execution, if you've ever heard of mass execution, taking
18 place after the fall of Srebrenica? So basically let me split it in two,
19 two questions. Have you ever heard of mass execution of Muslim prisoners
20 after the fall of Srebrenica; and if yes, when?
21 A. Of course I heard it, but I can't tell you when it was. I did
22 hear about the executions, but I can't set a precise time.
23 Q. Are we talking about hours? Weeks? Months? Years?
24 A. A longer period, but I can't really be more precise than that.
25 Q. And you heard about it after the war? Before the end of the war?
1 A. After the war.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. COSTI: I don't have any further questions. I think I have a
4 few minutes left, but I don't need more time.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Thank you.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Deronjic, let's start from these freshest
9 issues. The two individuals, father and son, did they file a criminal
10 report against you? Did they testify against you? Was there some sort
11 of legal action taken against you?
12 A. There was no legal action taken by them against me. I told you
13 that I'm on good terms with the family, that I'm in touch with the father
14 on a daily basis. Let me repeat, I recently obtained a piece of paper
15 for him that I sent through his father.
16 Q. Thank you. Were they called elsewhere in Bosnia to give
17 statements concerning yourself?
18 A. I'm not aware of it and they didn't tell me anything about it.
19 Q. Thank you. When you are given a task somewhere -- or, rather,
20 first of all, can you explain to us what the difference is between
21 regular policing duties and the assignment given within the PJP?
22 A. When a special police unit is being engaged, a dispatch and an
23 order is sent by the public security centre in Zvornik and one proceeds
24 to execute the given assignment. It was thus that we were deployed to
25 the battle-field in Treskavica and elsewhere, where we were on the
1 separation line in trenches. Likewise, we were dispatched to Srebrenica
2 to put together a police station to prevent looting and theft and protect
3 private properties.
4 Q. Thank you. Is there any difference in terms of the salary paid
5 out or the years of pensionable service calculated? Do these conditions
6 apply equally to the regular policing duties and these assignments within
7 the framework of the PJP?
8 A. Well, there are no special payments given. It was treated the
9 same way as any other police duty would be.
10 Q. Thank you. When performing regular policing duties, would your
11 spare time be any different from your engagement within the PJP? When
12 were you given time for rest, et cetera?
13 A. Of course there is a difference. In regular policing duties we
14 have shifts of duty during which we are on patrol. And then, following
15 our shift, we have a period of time set aside for rest. As for the
16 special police unit, our engagement there was non-stop until we completed
17 the assignment that we had initially been deployed for.
18 Q. Thank you. What was the procedure in terms of you being absent
19 from your duty station during your engagement within the PJP?
20 A. Well, we were not allowed to be absent without leave. In case we
21 needed to leave our position, we had to inform the company commander or
22 the deputy commander of the company, who would then provide their
24 Q. Thank you. When on special duty within the PJP, where would you
25 be listed as an employee? Let's specifically look at this case when
1 between 12 and -- or even before the 12th at Konjevic Polje, where were
2 you listed as employed up until the 21st of July?
3 A. In this particular case, up until the 21st of July, I was
4 employed with the public security station in Bratunac, where I received
5 my salary and where I had certain duties. Between the 12th and the 21st,
6 I was engaged through the special police unit on specific tasks in
7 Srebrenica, whereas as of 21, I was given a document where I was
8 transferred to the Srebrenica public security station and took up duties
10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what changed on the 21st of July?
11 A. What changed on the 21st of July was that I was reassigned from
12 the Bratunac public security station to the Srebrenica public security
13 station, where I was given a document certifying my reassignment to that
15 Q. Where did you receive your salary from up until the 20th and
16 where after the 21st?
17 A. Up until the 21st it was from the Bratunac public security
18 station, whereas following the 21st, I received my salary from the MUP
19 through the Srebrenica public security station.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 24716 now. I think
22 that it's received its P number now. It was the last document that was
23 adopted, I believe.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that is it. Can we have
1 page 6, please, in both versions. The next page then, please. We have
2 the right page in the Serbian version. I'm not sure about the English,
3 though. It should be some other page, I believe. Yes.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please have a look at the Serbian version. The gentlemen by the
6 name of Obrenovic, what were the dates of his engagement?
7 A. Under 2, Darko Obrenovic worked from 7.00 a.m. until 7.00 p.m.
8 Q. Thank you. And the next?
9 A. Miladin Gligic, under 3, worked from 7.00 a.m. until 7.00 a.m.
10 Q. And the last two persons, the same shift?
11 A. Yes, Stevanovic from 7.00 p.m. to 7.00 a.m., and the same applies
12 to Markovic.
13 Q. Can you tell us who was able to see you in Srebrenica on the
14 13th of July in the course of that day?
15 A. First of all, who can confirm that we were there? It can be
16 confirmed by my colleagues from the 2nd Company of the PJP,
17 Darko Obrenovic, Miladin Gligic, Sredoje Vojic, Pavle Pelemis,
18 Nebojsa Milanovic, and so on and so forth.
19 Q. Thank you very much. And can you tell us this. You have
20 mentioned the distance between Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje. Can you
21 repeat how far that is?
22 A. The distance between Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje is
23 30 kilometres. Bratunac-Konjevic Polje is 21 kilometres and
24 Bratunac-Srebrenica is another 10 kilometres.
25 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor suggests that you just popped over to
1 kill some people and returned. How would you have been able to go there
2 without permission? What kind of vehicle would you have used if you
3 didn't have your commander's approval? Was there a regular bus line?
4 Were there any bicycles you can borrow?
5 A. There was no transportation at the time, there was nothing. I
6 could not have been there at all, and I'm telling you the Prosecutor
7 claims that the complete 2nd Company was in Konjevic Polje and then
8 creates a problem because the time of service under my name was
9 corrected. I don't know whether everybody is a problem or is it just me
10 that is a problem in this work schedule.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic. I have no further questions for you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
13 Mr. Deronjic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
14 Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you
15 are free to go.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you too.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE KWON: Are we ready to continue with the next witness,
19 Mr. Robinson?
20 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President. The next witness will be ready
21 tomorrow morning. I excused him for the day so that he didn't have to
22 wait around, and because we don't have a lot of other witnesses this
24 JUDGE KWON: Coming back to the -- Mr. Keserovic's evidence.
25 Given the circumstances, the Chamber is minded to have a short
1 adjournment or postponement between his examination-in-chief and
2 cross-examination. But the Chamber will see how it evolves, whether
3 there's a possibility that we can continue directly with the cross. But
4 we'll leave it at that.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, can I just address a few other
6 scheduling issues for this week to inform you. First of all, tomorrow we
7 will have KW558 as scheduled, and the Prosecution has graciously agreed
8 that we can have the examination of Witness Mirko Peric, even though he
9 will be testifying earlier than the 48 hours between the time that we
10 disclosed his final statement and the time he begins his testimony. So
11 we anticipate having both of those witnesses tomorrow. Unfortunately,
12 the next witness, Dragan Andan, who is arriving -- he couldn't arrive
13 earlier than tomorrow. We scheduled a proofing with him tomorrow
14 evening. But he has to listen to his testimony from the Stanisic and
15 Zupljanin case which was very lengthy and we don't believe that it can be
16 completed tomorrow. And so it is our anticipation that he would not be
17 ready to testify until Friday morning, so I want to alert the
18 Trial Chamber to that. This is not a conspiracy for me to have the
19 4th of July free, but that appears to be something that seems likely.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then we'll continue tomorrow morning at
22 The hearing is adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.10 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of
25 July, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.