130704IT

Page 6708

1 WITNESS: JOZO KNEZEVIC [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Knezevic.

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Do you remember yesterday we left off having watched the video of

7 an interview with a person you identified as Goran Hadzic. Do you

8 remember that?

9 A. Yes, I remember.

10 Q. Now, when we left off we were discussing the situation regarding

11 the parents of Mr. Gudelj you told us were -- well, the father was

12 detained in Borovo Selo. In one part of the clip -- at the beginning of

13 the clip, there's a sentence which says:

14 "With regard to my experience with the Ustasha regime, it is sad

15 and would not recall it now, but I have realised that there is no

16 democracy in that state ...," et cetera, et cetera.

17 Do you remember the term Ustasha regime being used around the

18 time that you were in Tenja?

19 A. I never saw the term Ustasha being used. They called us

20 Ustashas, but nobody paid attention. I don't even know what an Ustasha

21 is or who an Ustasha is.

22 Q. And when you say "they called us Ustashas," who called you

23 Ustashas?

24 A. Well, the Serbs who were there, they called us Ustashas and

25 stuff. Most of them said that we were Ustashas.

Page 6709

1 Q. Okay. Now returning to the part of a video which talked about

2 the Gudelj parents, can you tell the Court, if you remember, about how

3 old they were at the time?

4 A. I think that the father may have been 60 or 70 and so was the

5 mother. They were both ill.

6 Q. Very well. And what participation, if any, did they have in

7 fighting or combat activities at the time?

8 A. They didn't take part in any fighting. They stayed at their

9 home. Only their son was what he was like.

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Your Honours, the video that we

11 showed yesterday was 65 ter 4809.10 and at this point I seek to tender.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4809.10 will be Exhibit P2305.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much.

16 Q. Mr. Knezevic, yesterday you mentioned Bozo Vidakovic came to your

17 house on several occasions and asked you to hand over your belongings,

18 your TV, telephones, et cetera, fridge. Were you given any receipt or

19 any proof that this was taken from your house?

20 A. I just had to sign a slip of paper or something saying that this

21 would be taken to the local commune, but I didn't get anything in return.

22 I signed what he wanted me to sign and then he left. He entered my

23 living room with his rifle and he said, "Sign this," and I had to sign.

24 Q. And was this property ever returned to you?

25 A. Nothing was ever returned. Everything was taken away but never

Page 6710

1 returned.

2 Q. Now, you explained yesterday how you left Tenja with your

3 brother. Can you tell us why your parents did not come along as well?

4 A. I was trying to persuade my brother -- my --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: My father.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to return to Germany, but he

7 said, "I can't go there because I'd be worried about you." Our

8 neighbour, Nikola Subotinovic, came to see him and said, "Uncle Marko,

9 don't go anywhere, nobody will touch you. Stay at your house and that

10 will be best." And he followed Nikola's advice because Nikola had

11 promised to him that nobody would touch him, so he stayed. I went to

12 take out a reservation for him to leave, but he said, "No, I won't, I'll

13 stay." And that's how it was, he stayed in his house.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15 Q. Now, the day that you left with your brother, where was your

16 mother?

17 A. When I left, I first went to see that man who was also an

18 Orthodox Serb. He lent me his tractor so I could gather the beans, and

19 when I returned I saw my mother walking in the yard and so was -- my

20 brother was there but my father wasn't. And asked I her, "Where's our

21 father?" And she said, "He went away. Bozo seems to have taken him

22 away." And I thought, "Well, what do I do now? I have to go. I'll take

23 my brother with me. Allegedly they wanted to take him to Serbia for him

24 to go to school there. I didn't believe that. And I said to our mother

25 that I was leaving and she said, "You save your lives at least. We

Page 6711

1 cannot leave." I didn't dare take my mother and aunt with us because

2 there were armed people on the street and they would have noticed that I

3 was going to flee, and then I took my brother, put him on the tractor,

4 and left. They stopped me on the first line. They asked me where I was

5 going, and I replied, "I'm going to get the beans." They didn't know

6 that I was going to escape. They were mostly neighbours who were out

7 there on the roadblocks.

8 Q. Thank you, yes. You told us the latter part of your story

9 yesterday. Is it correct -- so yesterday you told us that in the end

10 when you were able to flee you ended up in Osijek; is that right?

11 A. That is correct, Osijek.

12 Q. Is it correct to say that after a certain time in Osijek you

13 joined the Croatian armed forces?

14 A. Yes, I did. They gave me a year to rest, and then I enlisted

15 with the home guards.

16 Q. Now, after you left Tenja, did you ever see your parents again?

17 A. I never saw them again.

18 Q. While you were in Osijek, did you have any information as to your

19 parents' condition or situation?

20 A. I had information saying that they had been killed, but I

21 wouldn't believe that. I couldn't believe that anybody would kill my

22 parents because there was no reason. My father even hadn't been there

23 because he had worked in Germany, and he was never a member of any

24 political party, the HDZ or any other. And he always said that he was

25 Yugoslav. But when I was in the army on the line at Ivanovac which is

Page 6712

1 between Tenja and Osijek, the UNPROFOR was there, the Russian UNPROFOR

2 soldiers. And a short distance away, maybe 500 metres, my neighbours

3 were on that side. And I recognized Nikica, and I called this Russian

4 soldier, whether he could call that Nikica so I could ask him about my

5 parents, because that man's sister was on our side at Cepin near my

6 sister, and the Russian said yeah, that he would fetch him. And so we

7 met halfway, and I immediately asked him about my parents, and the man

8 said to me that my -- both my parents had been killed. "Who killed

9 them," I asked? He said Bozo Vidakovac. I knew that. That man had

10 threatened me that I would have to go to Borovo and they too. After that

11 conversation, I returned to our side. And then I brought his daughter

12 from Cepin because he had asked me to bring her so he could see her. I

13 went to Cepin to fetch her and she also talked to her father.

14 Q. Very well. Now, sir, did there come a time when you returned to

15 Tenja after the war?

16 A. When the peaceful reintegration began, I was among the first to

17 return to my house at Tenja. I was the last to escape and the first to

18 return. And I went there to find my parents. I looked for them for

19 about a month until I found them. I found them in the Betin Dvor forest

20 between Silas and Tenja, they were buried there. A man told me who dug

21 there, who had buried them. And I found my parents and my aunt and the

22 neighbours brother, father, and mother, and there was a boy who was alone

23 without his parents. He was also there -- buried there. They were all

24 in black plastic bags and their remains were taken to Dalj to be examined

25 by an expert, and I had to go there to see. They called me to enter.

Page 6713

1 There was a tent with their bones and what have you. And then that

2 expert doctor told me when I asked him how they had been killed, he

3 replied, "No, there are no traces of bullets. They were beaten." I felt

4 sick and I exited.

5 Then I buried my parents, but at least I found them. Many people

6 never found their own. And that's it.

7 Q. Mr. Knezevic, what was the situation with -- what was the

8 condition of your house when you returned to Tenja?

9 A. My house was a complete mess. Everything had been taken away and

10 it was devastated. It was a rather large house, but I heard that it was

11 the army who stayed there first, the JNA. And after that some volunteers

12 from Serbia. And only when everything was over, when the peaceful

13 reintegration began, then my neighbour from about a kilometre away began

14 to live in my house. He brought some things of his own and stayed there,

15 although he had his own house. When I returned, I went up to my house to

16 see and he came out. He knew me well of course. And he said, "I'm in

17 your house ." And I said, "How come you are in my house? If it were a

18 refugee, it would be logical." And I asked, "When can I move in?" And

19 he replied in about a month when he tidied up his own house then I could

20 enter my own house. And I thought, Well, there's no point in raising

21 hell now. I'll wait.

22 I went --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

25 Q. Sorry, Mr. Knezevic, the interpreters are asking that you repeat

Page 6714

1 the last sentence; they weren't able to hear it.

2 A. When my sister arrived, she wanted to see the house, what it was

3 like inside, hoping that there would be a picture of our parents or

4 something, but that man Jovica wouldn't let her in. And I asked him why.

5 And he said, "Well, I let you in. I can't let her in too." And I said,

6 "But just to see." And he said, "No." And I said, "I'm returning -- I'm

7 going away now. I'll be back in ten days or so because you don't need a

8 month, you can leave tomorrow if you wanted to. But I'll give you ten

9 days to leave my house." And I returned to Osijek. Not even five days

10 elapsed and my sister called me to say that he had returned the keys to

11 the police and that I could come back. And then I took my things and

12 returned to my house with my wife. I had some stuff and brought it to

13 the house and started living there.

14 Q. So just to be clear, you said this was after the peaceful

15 reintegration?

16 A. After the peaceful reintegration, or rather, as soon as it

17 started, as soon as we were informed that we could return, I was the

18 first to do so. All the people who had been involved in the mayhem had

19 left and then I returned because I wasn't afraid of anything.

20 Q. Very well. And in respect to your brother with whom you fled in

21 September 1991, is he still alive?

22 A. Alive and well, married, has two children, has a house, lives in

23 Laszlo.

24 Q. Very well. And one last clarification on the question I asked

25 you before. The peaceful reintegration that you were talking about,

Page 6715

1 which year was that in?

2 A. Now, which year that was I cannot remember exactly. 2005, 2006,

3 something like that. I cannot say exactly. 2005, 2006, something like

4 that.

5 Q. Perhaps if this would help you, how much time after you left

6 Tenja did you return, how many years after you left Tenja did you return

7 there?

8 A. Well, it was about five years, five or six years at the most.

9 Q. Very well. And finally, could you tell the Court what impact did

10 these events have on you and your family?

11 A. It was very hard. How do I put this? I couldn't understand

12 that, but I had no parents. It was so hard for me. I had nothing

13 anywhere. I lived -- well, sort of. I did a bit of work, got a bit of

14 money, and that was it. Life was very hard.

15 Q. Thank you for answering these questions, Mr. Knezevic.

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this concludes my

17 examination-in-chief.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

19 Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Knezevic. My name is

23 Zoran Zivanovic. I am Defence counsel for Goran Hadzic in these

24 proceedings. Could you please tell me, I understood from your testimony

25 that you worked in Osijek for a while?

Page 6716

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell me until when you worked in Osijek?

3 A. What do you mean until when? I always worked in Osijek. I

4 worked in a construction company before it went down the drain and before

5 they closed it.

6 Q. Do you remember when that was?

7 A. I don't remember exactly when that was.

8 Q. Was that before you left Tenja?

9 A. Oh, no, before that. The war hadn't even started.

10 Q. Can you tell me, after that, after you stopped working in Osijek,

11 did you get a job? What did you do?

12 A. I worked for an individual. He himself was a director at

13 transport transit and I worked for him, drove a tractor, things like

14 that.

15 Q. Was that some company?

16 A. No, no. It was a private thing. He had lots of land and

17 couldn't deal with all of it. He worked in transit Osijek.

18 Q. Did you actually drive a tractor?

19 A. Yes, that's it. Drove a tractor for him.

20 Q. What was the name of that man?

21 A. Rajko Dukic.

22 Q. And until when did you work for Dukic?

23 A. For a long, long time. Even when the war started I worked for

24 him. He's the only one who helped me there; nobody else did.

25 Q. You lived in old Tenja as far as I understood. Tell me, how far

Page 6717

1 away is Stara Tenja, old Tenja, from Nova Tenja, new Tenja?

2 A. Well, if we look at the school and then to Nova Tenja there's,

3 say, 2 kilometres.

4 Q. From Stara Tenja if you were to go to Osijek, do you have to go

5 through Nova Tenja?

6 A. I can but I don't have to.

7 Q. And if you are going from Nova Tenja to Stara Tenja then you

8 cannot reach Osijek; right?

9 A. I don't understand. From Nova Tenja to Stara Tenja?

10 Q. If from Nova Tenja you go to Stara Tenja you won't reach Osijek,

11 you would actually be walking in the opposite direction.

12 A. Well, I can go to Osijek in the opposite direction too.

13 Q. Is it closer to go from Stara Tenja to Osijek via Nova Tenja, or

14 is it closer to go from Nova Tenja to Osijek via Stara Tenja?

15 A. It's closer to go from Nova Tenja to Osijek because it's only a

16 few kilometres.

17 Q. Well, that's precisely what I have been asking you.

18 Can you tell me how far away Tenja is away from Osijek?

19 A. 6 kilometres.

20 Q. Now we're talking about Stara Tenja or Nova Tenja?

21 A. Nova Tenja to Osijek. Stara, Nova, all of that is Tenja.

22 Q. You said that at one point in time you were forced to dig some

23 canal between the separation lines. Can you tell me where this canal was

24 in relation to Stara Tenja and Nova Tenja?

25 A. That canal was in Montunovacka Ulica, that's where the last line

Page 6718

1 was of the Serb defence, and at the beginning of Nova Tenja there was the

2 Croatian police and army.

3 Q. In other words, Nova Tenja was held by Croatian forces and

4 Stara Tenja by Serb forces?

5 A. Half. In between it wasn't safe, so they had half of Nova Tenja

6 and the others had all of Stara Tenja.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Knezevic, Mr. Knezevic, while you and

8 Mr. Zivanovic, you speak the same language, but it still has to be

9 translated. Now, it is very difficult for the interpreters when you

10 overlap between questions and answers or when you speak -- you answer too

11 quickly after the questions. Now, a very good trick for you would be to

12 count -- mentally to count to three or four after the question before you

13 start answering. Then the interpreters have the time to finish their

14 interpretation.

15 Do you understand? Could you try to do that? Thank you very

16 much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of that is clear to me.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yesterday you said that people talked in Nova Tenja at some

20 gathering about -- I beg your pardon, not in Nova Tenja but in

21 Stara Tenja, that at some gathering people were saying that the Croatian

22 police would attack but this attack never took place. And in that

23 context you mentioned, that is, on page 6686, you mentioned that some

24 candles were lit in windows. Since I don't find this to be very clear,

25 could you please tell us what kind of candles were supposed to be lit?

Page 6719

1 A. This was when the policemen got killed in Borovo Naselje. Then

2 on the radio they said that candles should be lit for those dead, that

3 these candles should be lit and placed in windows; however, I was where I

4 was -- I mean, I may have lit a candle if I had not been where I had

5 been, but I said no. And the neighbours said that they wanted Croatian

6 houses to be recognizable if there's an attack so that people would know

7 whose house -- which houses are Croatian. But that was not true. This

8 was lit for those who got killed in Borovo Naselje. I didn't even light

9 a candle so that they wouldn't think that I was lighting a candle in

10 order to show that I was a Croat. I went out into the street and said

11 I'm not going to light a candle, nothing, so I did not.

12 Q. Could you please just clarify this for me. Was this after what

13 happened in Borovo Selo or after this other event when they announced an

14 attack coming from the Croatian police and that never happened?

15 A. After these policemen got killed there.

16 Q. Was that before or after that gathering in Tenja where it was

17 said that there would be an attack?

18 A. It was earlier. It was earlier, before that attack.

19 Q. So first there was this event in Borovo Selo and then that

20 gathering in Tenja that you spoke about?

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, if you're going to another topic I

22 would like to put one follow-up question to the witness.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Knezevic, you said that -- let me see.

25 "On the radio they said that candles should be lit for those

Page 6720

1 dead, that these candles should be lit and placed in windows ..."

2 And then you say:

3 "... they wanted Croatian houses to be recognizable if there was

4 an attack so that people would know whose houses -- which houses are

5 Croatian ..."

6 You're referring to an attack, an attack from whom, from which

7 side?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that the Croatian police

9 would attack Tenja, sort of to liberate Tenja. That's what those Serbs

10 said who were there.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So the candles would be for the Croatian forces

12 to recognize the Croatian houses; is that right?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, that's what they said.

14 The Serbs said --

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's what I mean, that was the story. So

16 that's right, that was the story, wasn't it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, yes.

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Also, you spoke here, inter alia, about Gudelj

22 and the murder of Kir, the chief of police from Osijek. Can you remember

23 when that happened?

24 A. I cannot remember the exact date when that happened. It was

25 before that rebellion. It's been 20 years now.

Page 6721

1 Q. And can you remember whether that gathering in front of the local

2 commune where the attack of the Croatian police was referred to, was that

3 held before or after Kir was killed?

4 A. After that.

5 Q. I'm going to show you a text now simply to jog your memory. It's

6 a newspaper article that was published at the time 1D71. In B/C/S it's

7 immediately on the first page -- actually, we'll see that text. This is

8 a text that was published on the 25th of September, 2010. I think it was

9 Nacional -- or, no, it was Hina that carried it. On the third page of

10 the English version and on the next page in B/C/S, it says that Kir was

11 killed on the 1st of July, 1991. Has this jogged your memory a bit?

12 A. Yes, a bit.

13 Q. You see, in this text it says, among other things, that on that

14 occasion when Kir was killed, three, or rather, two other persons were

15 killed and another person was wounded, seriously wounded. And I think

16 you mentioned this man, Tubic, among others. Yesterday you testified

17 about that, how come this Croatian policeman was killed, and you said

18 that he was asking about his parents - this is page 66 -- 6701, rather.

19 And you described what happened. I am not going to use more time now by

20 repeating that. At the time, did people know or did people talk why this

21 man killed three persons and evidently tried to kill this fourth man, but

22 this man managed to survive?

23 A. Well, who would he kill? It just so happened they didn't want to

24 stop and he was on the reserve police force. And then when he heard what

25 he heard, he decided to shoot and he just started shooting at random, and

Page 6722

1 who he killed, he killed; and who he didn't kill, he didn't kill.

2 Q. Just tell me, please, you say that he was a reserve policeman.

3 Was he in the Serb part of the police or in that Croatian part of the

4 police?

5 A. The Croatian part of the police.

6 Q. You probably knew the people mentioned here, Zobundzija,

7 Milan Knezevic, Tubic, I believe that you even mentioned this Tubic. Can

8 you tell me what kind of trace this murder committed on the 1st of July,

9 1991, left in old Tenja, how did the Serbs react to it?

10 A. Well, it wasn't easy on them, it wasn't easy on me either, let

11 alone them. So many people got killed. If Kir had been able to calm

12 things, there may have been no war. Everybody was unhappy with so many

13 people being killed, both them and us.

14 Q. Since you lived in old Tenja and had an appreciation of the

15 atmosphere there, right after the murder there do you think that the

16 relatives of the perpetrator, this Gudelj, do you think that they might

17 have been exposed to some sort of vengeance on the part of the family of

18 those killed, for example, or anybody else?

19 A. Well, of course they were afraid after what had happened,

20 especially Gudelj and the parents certainly were not indifferent, but

21 they then stayed indoors.

22 Q. Were they taken to Borovo soon after the event?

23 A. I don't know when exactly they were taken away. They may have

24 stayed for another month or so. I heard that the father was taken to

25 Borovo and beaten there and what have you.

Page 6723

1 Q. Was there talk about them being taken to Borovo in order to avoid

2 their coming to harm in Tenja because of what their son did, so nobody

3 took vengeance on them?

4 A. I heard that they'd been taken to prison and not what their son

5 had done and all that. Now, of course I didn't see whether they were in

6 prison or in hospital.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Previous translation continues]... this document

9 into evidence, please.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I didn't hear you and I think the

11 court reporter didn't hear you.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I would tender this document into

13 evidence.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, may I just ask for what purpose, is it to

16 determine the date of this killing? Is it for that purpose alone?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is relevant for many purposes. First of all,

18 it explains when and locates when the meeting was held and when --

19 because the witness determined the date or the time of the meeting in

20 relation to the killing of Mr. Kir. And here this document establishes

21 the date of the killing of Mr. Kir. And he also spoke about this

22 particular accident, and I think that this document is relevant for this

23 case.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, if it helps, we don't dispute that

Page 6724

1 Mr. Kir was killed on the 1st of July, 1991. The article contains a lot

2 of other details which haven't been explored. So if it's simply for that

3 purpose, we won't necessarily have an objection, but I'm not sure if the

4 document is helpful. I don't think that the witness has actually

5 identified it or that he showed any relation or connection to the article

6 itself. There are certain features that he talks about, but again as I

7 say, we don't dispute the fact that this murder happened on the 1st of

8 July.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: The document is admitted and marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 1D71 will be Exhibit D85.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, you said yesterday: I believe that Gudelj was the

14 president of the HDZ Tenja.

15 A. Yes, I think that he was.

16 Q. Do you know who the president of the SDS of Tenja was?

17 A. Initially the one who allegedly drowned in the Drava but he

18 didn't drown, really, he was killed. And after him it was Mr. Hadzic. I

19 wasn't involved in politics, so I don't really know who was SDS or

20 anything else.

21 Q. I may have been less than precise. I was speaking about the SDS

22 at Tenja. Are you saying that these people were the presidents of the

23 SDS at Tenja or not?

24 A. President of the SDS at Tenja, well, yeah, I believe that it was

25 at Tenja.

Page 6725

1 Q. Please take a look at a photograph, P89.50. Here in this

2 photograph you can see three persons. I'm going to ask you about the one

3 in the centre. Do you know that person? Did you see him?

4 A. The one in the centre, no, I never saw him.

5 Q. We'll look at another photograph. You might be able to recognize

6 someone from a different angle. 1D524.

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will just indicate that in line 19 it should be

8 the president -- president at the Tenja ...

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me if you know this person in the

12 photograph?

13 A. No, I don't. Maybe he looks different now, but I don't remember

14 him from before.

15 Q. I'm referring to the time when the photograph was taken, maybe a

16 couple of months later, but the person who -- do you remember seeing that

17 person at Tenja, the way he looks in this photograph?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Do you know whether there were any attacks of the Croatian forces

20 at Tenja, that is, old Tenja, while you were there at all?

21 A. Once an attempt was made - it wasn't really an attack - an

22 attempt to liberate old Tenja and they came as far as the school, that is

23 the outskirts of Tenja, and then they returned. Why? Because the JNA,

24 or rather, this wasn't really the JNA, it was the reservists from Serbia.

25 They went out in the streets in their tanks and so they withdrew. But

Page 6726

1 when I say "army," I really mean Serbian reservists.

2 Q. That all happened after Kir's murder and the killing of the three

3 others?

4 A. Yes, after that.

5 Q. According to my information - and I'm aware that you don't

6 remember the exact date - but let me still try to remind you that

7 according to my information that attack happened on the 7th of July,

8 1991. Do you remember that?

9 A. No, I do.

10 Q. Let me show you some -- or rather, let me first ask you if you

11 know that as a consequence of these various events at Tenja there were

12 also trials in Serbia and Croatia after the war?

13 A. Yes, I heard of some trials in Serbia and Croatia.

14 Q. Do you remember who was tried?

15 A. I heard that a trial began in Serbia of Bozo, Rebraca, and what

16 do I know, people from Tenja.

17 Q. We have information --

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D522. It should not be broadcast when

19 shown to the witness. Sorry, it is 1D521. [Interpretation] Page 3 in

20 B/C/S and it should be 4 and 5 in English. It seems that it isn't there

21 yet -- actually, this is where it starts, but we can turn to the

22 following page in English.

23 Q. Briefly I have information that on or about the 30th of June,

24 1991, a meeting was to take place between Mr. Kir and people from Tenja

25 and that meeting --

Page 6727

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In English version in the next page.

2 Q. [Interpretation] That meeting was held and the people who

3 attended included Mirko Tubic, Dr. Mladen Hadzic, Milan Knezevic,

4 Mile Jajic, and Djuro Podunavac. Of the people I have just mentioned --

5 I repeat the last name, Djuro Podunavac. Of the people I mentioned, do

6 you know anyone?

7 A. That Milan Knezevic, Tubic -- I know everybody from Tenja, all of

8 them.

9 Q. According to my information, they're all from Tenja?

10 A. Haric [as interpreted] is not from Tenja.

11 Q. According to my information, he lived in Tenja, had a house

12 there?

13 A. I don't know him.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I wonder whether we have the right

15 document on the screen or the right page of the document. In English I

16 mean. I don't read B/C/S. I particularly can't find any of the names

17 that you mentioned on this page.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is one page back, one page back in English

19 version, sorry. Yes. It is the second paragraph.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Sorry.

22 Q. [Interpretation] And I have an accurate description here of that

23 meeting and what happened afterwards as far as Kir is concerned.

24 According to this information, that is just one paragraph before

25 this one, before the one that is on the screen now, you can see --

Page 6728

1 actually, you cannot see because it's not being broadcast, but we have

2 information to the effect that Serbs in Tenja were linked up and that

3 Dr. Mladen Hadzic took part in that among others.

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: You seem to say that the witness can't see the

8 document but he has it in front of him. It's not broadcast, but the

9 witness has it in front of him.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I said that he should not see the document

11 according to your policy not to because it is statement.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: This document actually on the screen?

13 So then I think everybody misunderstood --

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, it is --

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Nobody understood that it shouldn't be shown to

16 the witness. You said it shouldn't be broadcast. Oh, Judge Hall

17 remembers that you said "or shown to the witness."

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: So no broadcast nor shown to the witness. Sorry

20 about that.

21 Did you take care of that, Mr. Usher. So it's off the witness's

22 screen. Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic --

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry for the interruption.

25 Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

Page 6729

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just before it leaves the screen, or maybe it

2 just did, page 21, line 6 --

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will have it on the screen, Mr. Demirdjian.

4 The witness doesn't.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No, I'm talking about the transcript. I

6 apologise.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, I'm sorry.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At page 21, line 6, the answer is recorded as

9 "Haric is not from Tenja," and I don't think there's anybody named Haric

10 on this document. Maybe we want to clarify that. The question was:

11 "According to my information they're all from Tenja."

12 And the answer is recorded:

13 "Haric is not in Tenja."

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, it is an error in transcript. It is Hadzic,

15 I spoke about Dr. Mladen Hadzic.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you know when this staff of the Territorial Defence was

19 organised in Tenja?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. And do you know who headed that staff, who the commander of that

22 staff of the Territorial Defence was?

23 A. I heard it was Jovo Rebraca.

24 Q. I'm going to show you, or rather, I'm not going to show you, but

25 actually I'm going to tell you something.

Page 6730

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D520. It should not be

2 broadcast or shown to the witness. It's page 1 in both versions, Serbian

3 and English.

4 Q. So the information I have is that it is correct that Jovo Rebraca

5 was commander of this Territorial Defence, organised this staff of the

6 Territorial Defence, and that he was appointed commander. I also have

7 information to the effect that he was appointed to that position by

8 Mladen Hadzic, the then-president of the SDS. Are you aware of that?

9 A. No, I'm not. I wasn't interested in that at all who was the

10 president and head.

11 Q. Could you please tell me now -- actually, you had contact with

12 your neighbour. I think that you said his name was Mile Vukas. And you

13 say he often came to see you to drink brandy?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You also said that you heard from him that an attack was being

16 prepared from Stara Tenja to liberate Osijek?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you believe that?

19 A. I didn't believe anything he said because he was a drunkard.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 Please tell me when that rally took place, the one that you

22 watched, or rather, the speakers at that rally were about a hundred or

23 150 metres away from you, and you say that a man by the name of Mile was

24 standing next to you. Was it this same Mile or a different one?

25 A. That was Mile Miladinovic.

Page 6731

1 Q. Out of the persons that you mentioned here, can you tell us

2 whether any one of them is still in Tenja, say Miladinovic, Vukas,

3 Rebraca, Vidakovic?

4 A. None of them. They all escaped because they wreaked havoc.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the name of

6 the person who died a year ago as did his wife. And the interpreter did

7 not understand the end of the sentence either.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. If you could please repeat the name of the person who died and

10 the name of his wife because the interpreters could not hear you very

11 well.

12 A. Mile Miladinovic, and his wife Vasilija Miladinovic. He died a

13 year ago and she died a few months after that.

14 Q. At the time when this rally was being held you were busy, you

15 actually had a job, you were working somewhere nearby, and it is from

16 there that you watched this gathering for a while. Can you tell us what

17 this was, what kind of room that was that you were working in?

18 A. That was the co-operative, the agricultural co-operative, right

19 next door to the local commune. On the left-hand side there was a room

20 where we gathered, we who were on this work platoon.

21 Q. In other words, by then you already had this work obligation?

22 A. Forced labour. I had to work.

23 Q. Can you tell me when this was introduced, this forced labour as

24 you call it? When did that start? When did you have to go to this kind

25 of work?

Page 6732

1 A. As soon as they closed Tenja, you couldn't go there and couldn't

2 come out. Bozo took me out to work and left me there.

3 Q. Can you tell us when? You told us that for a while people could

4 enter and leave Tenja when you wanted to book your father's departure, if

5 I'm not mistaken -- actually, if you cannot recall the exact date, can

6 you sort of orient yourself in relation to these events that you were

7 telling us about. When, when did it become impossible? When was it no

8 longer possible to freely enter or leave Stara Tenja?

9 A. It was no longer possible when the shooting and killing started,

10 things like that. Before that, before nobody was killed, then I had this

11 motorcycle and the neighbours let me pass by and I could get a

12 reservation. Mico told me, "Go and get your father a reservation, but

13 watch out, don't let this person or that person see you." And then I

14 passed by and then there were people driving behind me who were slamming

15 on the brakes. They wanted me to be scared by that. I brought my father

16 the reservation but he didn't want to go.

17 Q. You say "when the shooting ... started." Was that after that

18 attempted attack of the Croatian forces against Stara Tenja or before

19 that?

20 A. Before that.

21 Q. Was that after the killing of Kir or before that?

22 A. I think it was after Kir was killed.

23 Q. I also have some information to the effect that the first attack

24 of the Croatian forces took place on the 29th of June, 1991, and that it

25 was the house of a certain Zeljko Radosavljevic that was attacked. Do

Page 6733

1 you know who he is, Zeljko Radosavljevic?

2 A. The name rings a bell, but I cannot remember exactly who that is.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D521, page 2 in B/C/S and page 4 through 5

4 on -- in English. It should not be broadcasted or shown to the witness.

5 Q. [Interpretation] And do you know of some family by the name of

6 Radakovic that lived in Stara Tenja at the time?

7 A. Radakovic rings a bell too, but I cannot remember exactly now who

8 that was. It's been 20 years.

9 Q. Well, according to this information that we have, according to

10 this information that we have, on the 29th of July in the evening the

11 first attack of the Croatian forces took place. It was this house that

12 was attacked of the Radakovic family -- the Radosavljevic family, where

13 this family by the name of Radakovic was. Do you remember that precisely

14 on the following day, on the 30th of June - and that was the Croatian

15 holiday, the day of statehood --

16 A. It may have been a holiday, but I don't remember this attack

17 against that house.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It is the 29th of

19 June, not the 29th of July.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Once you said that you saw Goran Hadzic and Arkan in the street

22 on one occasion. Tell me, they walked down your street?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know where they came from, from which direction they had

25 come?

Page 6734

1 A. From the centre of Tenja.

2 Q. And where were they heading?

3 A. Towards the JNA barracks.

4 Q. What is the distance between the centre of Tenja and the JNA

5 barracks?

6 A. 3 kilometres, 2 at least.

7 Q. Thank you. Please clarify something to us. It's about what you

8 said today on page 4, line 21. You said about your brother that they

9 wanted to take him to Serbia to go to school. And I would like to know

10 who it was who wanted to take him there?

11 A. There was a list of people who were to go to school to Serbia,

12 but while they were going to school at Tenja he had problems with the son

13 of the Serbian priest. And they were fighting each other. One of them

14 was writing on the board in Serbian and the other word "HDZ," and then

15 this Podunavac accused him of being impertinent and that's why he got

16 scared. And I thought that was the reason why they wanted to take him to

17 Serbia to go to school there so that he would be out of there.

18 Q. Did anyone tell you that there was this plan to take him to

19 Serbia?

20 A. A man came to my house and told me so.

21 Q. And you understood that to mean that if he went to Serbia to go

22 to school that you would no longer see him?

23 A. Yes, of course. He had such problems in -- at Tenja, and it was

24 unbearable.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is talking

Page 6735

1 very fast. Could he please repeat.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Can you repeat what you have just said because the interpreters

4 could not keep up, as you speak very fast. So if you could repeat

5 slower.

6 A. A man came to my house and he was making a list who was supposed

7 to go school in Serbia, you see, and he asked my brother whether he would

8 go. And he replied, "Do I have to?" And then he said, "Everybody will

9 go so you should go as well." And then we went out. I went to transport

10 some hay of the school principal Podunavac, and I went to his house, that

11 is his mother's house, and he was there. And he explained that, "Your

12 brother attacked the son of the Serbian priest. He fought him. He was

13 waving the Croatian flag." And my brother got scared. And he said,

14 "That's no good." And for a while he was wearing a red, white, and blue

15 cap, which I didn't even know. And then our neighbour came up to me and

16 said, "Can you see what his brother's wearing?" And only then did I

17 realise, and then I took that cap away from him and I hid it. And I

18 understood that they wanted to take him to Serbia to go to school

19 allegedly but that I would never see him again because he did those

20 things in connection with the son of the Serbian priest.

21 Q. And you thought that there was a mere pretext for them to take

22 him away somewhere and possibly kill him and that for that reason you

23 would never see him again?

24 A. Yes, that was the reason. I was afraid they would kill him.

25 Q. But didn't it occur to you that if they wanted to kill him, they

Page 6736

1 could have done so right there at Tenja?

2 A. I didn't really think about that. Well, they might have killed

3 him in Tenja too and said that it happened in Serbia or that he was in

4 Serbia.

5 Q. Please tell me when you left Tenja you said that a year later you

6 joined the Croatian army. What did you do in the meantime during that

7 one year? I understood that you went to Osijek or some nearby place.

8 A. What I did, I was in Makarska and I rested there to recover from

9 what I had been through at Tenja, my brother and I. I took care of some

10 administrative work for my father for him to receive his pension. I went

11 to Germany a couple of times.

12 Q. Did the Croatian army not draft you?

13 A. No, I wasn't. Only later when I came to I enlisted voluntarily.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. President, I see the clock.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed, Mr. Zivanovic, a few minutes before

16 but that's okay.

17 Mr. Knezevic, we'll take the first break now, 30 minutes. We'll

18 come back at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of the

19 courtroom. Thank you.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 6737

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Knezevic, you spoke a lot about

3 Bozo Vidakovic. I don't want to repeat all you said. Instead, let me

4 ask you if you know that he had a nickname?

5 A. His nickname was Ustasha.

6 Q. And he had that nickname from before the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And both Serbs and Croats all called him that?

9 A. The Serbs called him that; the Croats didn't.

10 Q. Now about your testimony about that rally in front of the local

11 commune. Yesterday you said that Hadzic spoke there and Rebraca. You

12 also said that Arkan and Hadzic walked down the street where you lived.

13 Let me first ask you if those two events happened on the same day or not?

14 A. No, it was on -- those events were on two different days.

15 Q. You said that you were watching that first event from some 100 or

16 150 metres. I'm now interested in the other event. Did you see that or

17 did you learn that from Vukas?

18 A. He said that they were going to talk about doing what is required

19 to reach Osijek.

20 Q. In other words, did you see them yourself or were you told that

21 they had passed by?

22 A. I saw two men in uniforms walking down the street.

23 Q. Let us clarify one more thing. If I understood your last reply

24 correctly, you saw two people in uniforms passing by and he told you who

25 they were?