1 Thursday, 4 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
14 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Alex Demirdjian, Thomas Laugel, and
15 Krshbu Shalapuri [phoen].
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to you, Mr. Knezevic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 WITNESS: JOZO KNEZEVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Knezevic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Do you remember yesterday we left off having watched the video of
7 an interview with a person you identified as Goran Hadzic. Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. Yes, I remember.
10 Q. Now, when we left off we were discussing the situation regarding
11 the parents of Mr. Gudelj you told us were -- well, the father was
12 detained in Borovo Selo. In one part of the clip -- at the beginning of
13 the clip, there's a sentence which says:
14 "With regard to my experience with the Ustasha regime, it is sad
15 and would not recall it now, but I have realised that there is no
16 democracy in that state ...," et cetera, et cetera.
17 Do you remember the term Ustasha regime being used around the
18 time that you were in Tenja?
19 A. I never saw the term Ustasha being used. They called us
20 Ustashas, but nobody paid attention. I don't even know what an Ustasha
21 is or who an Ustasha is.
22 Q. And when you say "they called us Ustashas," who called you
24 A. Well, the Serbs who were there, they called us Ustashas and
25 stuff. Most of them said that we were Ustashas.
1 Q. Okay. Now returning to the part of a video which talked about
2 the Gudelj parents, can you tell the Court, if you remember, about how
3 old they were at the time?
4 A. I think that the father may have been 60 or 70 and so was the
5 mother. They were both ill.
6 Q. Very well. And what participation, if any, did they have in
7 fighting or combat activities at the time?
8 A. They didn't take part in any fighting. They stayed at their
9 home. Only their son was what he was like.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. Your Honours, the video that we
11 showed yesterday was 65 ter 4809.10 and at this point I seek to tender.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 4809.10 will be Exhibit P2305.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much.
16 Q. Mr. Knezevic, yesterday you mentioned Bozo Vidakovic came to your
17 house on several occasions and asked you to hand over your belongings,
18 your TV, telephones, et cetera, fridge. Were you given any receipt or
19 any proof that this was taken from your house?
20 A. I just had to sign a slip of paper or something saying that this
21 would be taken to the local commune, but I didn't get anything in return.
22 I signed what he wanted me to sign and then he left. He entered my
23 living room with his rifle and he said, "Sign this," and I had to sign.
24 Q. And was this property ever returned to you?
25 A. Nothing was ever returned. Everything was taken away but never
2 Q. Now, you explained yesterday how you left Tenja with your
3 brother. Can you tell us why your parents did not come along as well?
4 A. I was trying to persuade my brother -- my --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: My father.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- to return to Germany, but he
7 said, "I can't go there because I'd be worried about you." Our
8 neighbour, Nikola Subotinovic, came to see him and said, "Uncle Marko,
9 don't go anywhere, nobody will touch you. Stay at your house and that
10 will be best." And he followed Nikola's advice because Nikola had
11 promised to him that nobody would touch him, so he stayed. I went to
12 take out a reservation for him to leave, but he said, "No, I won't, I'll
13 stay." And that's how it was, he stayed in his house.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
15 Q. Now, the day that you left with your brother, where was your
17 A. When I left, I first went to see that man who was also an
18 Orthodox Serb. He lent me his tractor so I could gather the beans, and
19 when I returned I saw my mother walking in the yard and so was -- my
20 brother was there but my father wasn't. And asked I her, "Where's our
21 father?" And she said, "He went away. Bozo seems to have taken him
22 away." And I thought, "Well, what do I do now? I have to go. I'll take
23 my brother with me. Allegedly they wanted to take him to Serbia for him
24 to go to school there. I didn't believe that. And I said to our mother
25 that I was leaving and she said, "You save your lives at least. We
1 cannot leave." I didn't dare take my mother and aunt with us because
2 there were armed people on the street and they would have noticed that I
3 was going to flee, and then I took my brother, put him on the tractor,
4 and left. They stopped me on the first line. They asked me where I was
5 going, and I replied, "I'm going to get the beans." They didn't know
6 that I was going to escape. They were mostly neighbours who were out
7 there on the roadblocks.
8 Q. Thank you, yes. You told us the latter part of your story
9 yesterday. Is it correct -- so yesterday you told us that in the end
10 when you were able to flee you ended up in Osijek; is that right?
11 A. That is correct, Osijek.
12 Q. Is it correct to say that after a certain time in Osijek you
13 joined the Croatian armed forces?
14 A. Yes, I did. They gave me a year to rest, and then I enlisted
15 with the home guards.
16 Q. Now, after you left Tenja, did you ever see your parents again?
17 A. I never saw them again.
18 Q. While you were in Osijek, did you have any information as to your
19 parents' condition or situation?
20 A. I had information saying that they had been killed, but I
21 wouldn't believe that. I couldn't believe that anybody would kill my
22 parents because there was no reason. My father even hadn't been there
23 because he had worked in Germany, and he was never a member of any
24 political party, the HDZ or any other. And he always said that he was
25 Yugoslav. But when I was in the army on the line at Ivanovac which is
1 between Tenja and Osijek, the UNPROFOR was there, the Russian UNPROFOR
2 soldiers. And a short distance away, maybe 500 metres, my neighbours
3 were on that side. And I recognized Nikica, and I called this Russian
4 soldier, whether he could call that Nikica so I could ask him about my
5 parents, because that man's sister was on our side at Cepin near my
6 sister, and the Russian said yeah, that he would fetch him. And so we
7 met halfway, and I immediately asked him about my parents, and the man
8 said to me that my -- both my parents had been killed. "Who killed
9 them," I asked? He said Bozo Vidakovac. I knew that. That man had
10 threatened me that I would have to go to Borovo and they too. After that
11 conversation, I returned to our side. And then I brought his daughter
12 from Cepin because he had asked me to bring her so he could see her. I
13 went to Cepin to fetch her and she also talked to her father.
14 Q. Very well. Now, sir, did there come a time when you returned to
15 Tenja after the war?
16 A. When the peaceful reintegration began, I was among the first to
17 return to my house at Tenja. I was the last to escape and the first to
18 return. And I went there to find my parents. I looked for them for
19 about a month until I found them. I found them in the Betin Dvor forest
20 between Silas and Tenja, they were buried there. A man told me who dug
21 there, who had buried them. And I found my parents and my aunt and the
22 neighbours brother, father, and mother, and there was a boy who was alone
23 without his parents. He was also there -- buried there. They were all
24 in black plastic bags and their remains were taken to Dalj to be examined
25 by an expert, and I had to go there to see. They called me to enter.
1 There was a tent with their bones and what have you. And then that
2 expert doctor told me when I asked him how they had been killed, he
3 replied, "No, there are no traces of bullets. They were beaten." I felt
4 sick and I exited.
5 Then I buried my parents, but at least I found them. Many people
6 never found their own. And that's it.
7 Q. Mr. Knezevic, what was the situation with -- what was the
8 condition of your house when you returned to Tenja?
9 A. My house was a complete mess. Everything had been taken away and
10 it was devastated. It was a rather large house, but I heard that it was
11 the army who stayed there first, the JNA. And after that some volunteers
12 from Serbia. And only when everything was over, when the peaceful
13 reintegration began, then my neighbour from about a kilometre away began
14 to live in my house. He brought some things of his own and stayed there,
15 although he had his own house. When I returned, I went up to my house to
16 see and he came out. He knew me well of course. And he said, "I'm in
17 your house ." And I said, "How come you are in my house? If it were a
18 refugee, it would be logical." And I asked, "When can I move in?" And
19 he replied in about a month when he tidied up his own house then I could
20 enter my own house. And I thought, Well, there's no point in raising
21 hell now. I'll wait.
22 I went --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
25 Q. Sorry, Mr. Knezevic, the interpreters are asking that you repeat
1 the last sentence; they weren't able to hear it.
2 A. When my sister arrived, she wanted to see the house, what it was
3 like inside, hoping that there would be a picture of our parents or
4 something, but that man Jovica wouldn't let her in. And I asked him why.
5 And he said, "Well, I let you in. I can't let her in too." And I said,
6 "But just to see." And he said, "No." And I said, "I'm returning -- I'm
7 going away now. I'll be back in ten days or so because you don't need a
8 month, you can leave tomorrow if you wanted to. But I'll give you ten
9 days to leave my house." And I returned to Osijek. Not even five days
10 elapsed and my sister called me to say that he had returned the keys to
11 the police and that I could come back. And then I took my things and
12 returned to my house with my wife. I had some stuff and brought it to
13 the house and started living there.
14 Q. So just to be clear, you said this was after the peaceful
16 A. After the peaceful reintegration, or rather, as soon as it
17 started, as soon as we were informed that we could return, I was the
18 first to do so. All the people who had been involved in the mayhem had
19 left and then I returned because I wasn't afraid of anything.
20 Q. Very well. And in respect to your brother with whom you fled in
21 September 1991, is he still alive?
22 A. Alive and well, married, has two children, has a house, lives in
24 Q. Very well. And one last clarification on the question I asked
25 you before. The peaceful reintegration that you were talking about,
1 which year was that in?
2 A. Now, which year that was I cannot remember exactly. 2005, 2006,
3 something like that. I cannot say exactly. 2005, 2006, something like
5 Q. Perhaps if this would help you, how much time after you left
6 Tenja did you return, how many years after you left Tenja did you return
8 A. Well, it was about five years, five or six years at the most.
9 Q. Very well. And finally, could you tell the Court what impact did
10 these events have on you and your family?
11 A. It was very hard. How do I put this? I couldn't understand
12 that, but I had no parents. It was so hard for me. I had nothing
13 anywhere. I lived -- well, sort of. I did a bit of work, got a bit of
14 money, and that was it. Life was very hard.
15 Q. Thank you for answering these questions, Mr. Knezevic.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this concludes my
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.
19 Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Knezevic. My name is
23 Zoran Zivanovic. I am Defence counsel for Goran Hadzic in these
24 proceedings. Could you please tell me, I understood from your testimony
25 that you worked in Osijek for a while?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell me until when you worked in Osijek?
3 A. What do you mean until when? I always worked in Osijek. I
4 worked in a construction company before it went down the drain and before
5 they closed it.
6 Q. Do you remember when that was?
7 A. I don't remember exactly when that was.
8 Q. Was that before you left Tenja?
9 A. Oh, no, before that. The war hadn't even started.
10 Q. Can you tell me, after that, after you stopped working in Osijek,
11 did you get a job? What did you do?
12 A. I worked for an individual. He himself was a director at
13 transport transit and I worked for him, drove a tractor, things like
15 Q. Was that some company?
16 A. No, no. It was a private thing. He had lots of land and
17 couldn't deal with all of it. He worked in transit Osijek.
18 Q. Did you actually drive a tractor?
19 A. Yes, that's it. Drove a tractor for him.
20 Q. What was the name of that man?
21 A. Rajko Dukic.
22 Q. And until when did you work for Dukic?
23 A. For a long, long time. Even when the war started I worked for
24 him. He's the only one who helped me there; nobody else did.
25 Q. You lived in old Tenja as far as I understood. Tell me, how far
1 away is Stara Tenja, old Tenja, from Nova Tenja, new Tenja?
2 A. Well, if we look at the school and then to Nova Tenja there's,
3 say, 2 kilometres.
4 Q. From Stara Tenja if you were to go to Osijek, do you have to go
5 through Nova Tenja?
6 A. I can but I don't have to.
7 Q. And if you are going from Nova Tenja to Stara Tenja then you
8 cannot reach Osijek; right?
9 A. I don't understand. From Nova Tenja to Stara Tenja?
10 Q. If from Nova Tenja you go to Stara Tenja you won't reach Osijek,
11 you would actually be walking in the opposite direction.
12 A. Well, I can go to Osijek in the opposite direction too.
13 Q. Is it closer to go from Stara Tenja to Osijek via Nova Tenja, or
14 is it closer to go from Nova Tenja to Osijek via Stara Tenja?
15 A. It's closer to go from Nova Tenja to Osijek because it's only a
16 few kilometres.
17 Q. Well, that's precisely what I have been asking you.
18 Can you tell me how far away Tenja is away from Osijek?
19 A. 6 kilometres.
20 Q. Now we're talking about Stara Tenja or Nova Tenja?
21 A. Nova Tenja to Osijek. Stara, Nova, all of that is Tenja.
22 Q. You said that at one point in time you were forced to dig some
23 canal between the separation lines. Can you tell me where this canal was
24 in relation to Stara Tenja and Nova Tenja?
25 A. That canal was in Montunovacka Ulica, that's where the last line
1 was of the Serb defence, and at the beginning of Nova Tenja there was the
2 Croatian police and army.
3 Q. In other words, Nova Tenja was held by Croatian forces and
4 Stara Tenja by Serb forces?
5 A. Half. In between it wasn't safe, so they had half of Nova Tenja
6 and the others had all of Stara Tenja.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Knezevic, Mr. Knezevic, while you and
8 Mr. Zivanovic, you speak the same language, but it still has to be
9 translated. Now, it is very difficult for the interpreters when you
10 overlap between questions and answers or when you speak -- you answer too
11 quickly after the questions. Now, a very good trick for you would be to
12 count -- mentally to count to three or four after the question before you
13 start answering. Then the interpreters have the time to finish their
15 Do you understand? Could you try to do that? Thank you very
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of that is clear to me.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yesterday you said that people talked in Nova Tenja at some
20 gathering about -- I beg your pardon, not in Nova Tenja but in
21 Stara Tenja, that at some gathering people were saying that the Croatian
22 police would attack but this attack never took place. And in that
23 context you mentioned, that is, on page 6686, you mentioned that some
24 candles were lit in windows. Since I don't find this to be very clear,
25 could you please tell us what kind of candles were supposed to be lit?
1 A. This was when the policemen got killed in Borovo Naselje. Then
2 on the radio they said that candles should be lit for those dead, that
3 these candles should be lit and placed in windows; however, I was where I
4 was -- I mean, I may have lit a candle if I had not been where I had
5 been, but I said no. And the neighbours said that they wanted Croatian
6 houses to be recognizable if there's an attack so that people would know
7 whose house -- which houses are Croatian. But that was not true. This
8 was lit for those who got killed in Borovo Naselje. I didn't even light
9 a candle so that they wouldn't think that I was lighting a candle in
10 order to show that I was a Croat. I went out into the street and said
11 I'm not going to light a candle, nothing, so I did not.
12 Q. Could you please just clarify this for me. Was this after what
13 happened in Borovo Selo or after this other event when they announced an
14 attack coming from the Croatian police and that never happened?
15 A. After these policemen got killed there.
16 Q. Was that before or after that gathering in Tenja where it was
17 said that there would be an attack?
18 A. It was earlier. It was earlier, before that attack.
19 Q. So first there was this event in Borovo Selo and then that
20 gathering in Tenja that you spoke about?
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, if you're going to another topic I
22 would like to put one follow-up question to the witness.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Knezevic, you said that -- let me see.
25 "On the radio they said that candles should be lit for those
1 dead, that these candles should be lit and placed in windows ..."
2 And then you say:
3 "... they wanted Croatian houses to be recognizable if there was
4 an attack so that people would know whose houses -- which houses are
5 Croatian ..."
6 You're referring to an attack, an attack from whom, from which
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that the Croatian police
9 would attack Tenja, sort of to liberate Tenja. That's what those Serbs
10 said who were there.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So the candles would be for the Croatian forces
12 to recognize the Croatian houses; is that right?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, that's what they said.
14 The Serbs said --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's what I mean, that was the story. So
16 that's right, that was the story, wasn't it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Also, you spoke here, inter alia, about Gudelj
22 and the murder of Kir, the chief of police from Osijek. Can you remember
23 when that happened?
24 A. I cannot remember the exact date when that happened. It was
25 before that rebellion. It's been 20 years now.
1 Q. And can you remember whether that gathering in front of the local
2 commune where the attack of the Croatian police was referred to, was that
3 held before or after Kir was killed?
4 A. After that.
5 Q. I'm going to show you a text now simply to jog your memory. It's
6 a newspaper article that was published at the time 1D71. In B/C/S it's
7 immediately on the first page -- actually, we'll see that text. This is
8 a text that was published on the 25th of September, 2010. I think it was
9 Nacional -- or, no, it was Hina that carried it. On the third page of
10 the English version and on the next page in B/C/S, it says that Kir was
11 killed on the 1st of July, 1991. Has this jogged your memory a bit?
12 A. Yes, a bit.
13 Q. You see, in this text it says, among other things, that on that
14 occasion when Kir was killed, three, or rather, two other persons were
15 killed and another person was wounded, seriously wounded. And I think
16 you mentioned this man, Tubic, among others. Yesterday you testified
17 about that, how come this Croatian policeman was killed, and you said
18 that he was asking about his parents - this is page 66 -- 6701, rather.
19 And you described what happened. I am not going to use more time now by
20 repeating that. At the time, did people know or did people talk why this
21 man killed three persons and evidently tried to kill this fourth man, but
22 this man managed to survive?
23 A. Well, who would he kill? It just so happened they didn't want to
24 stop and he was on the reserve police force. And then when he heard what
25 he heard, he decided to shoot and he just started shooting at random, and
1 who he killed, he killed; and who he didn't kill, he didn't kill.
2 Q. Just tell me, please, you say that he was a reserve policeman.
3 Was he in the Serb part of the police or in that Croatian part of the
5 A. The Croatian part of the police.
6 Q. You probably knew the people mentioned here, Zobundzija,
7 Milan Knezevic, Tubic, I believe that you even mentioned this Tubic. Can
8 you tell me what kind of trace this murder committed on the 1st of July,
9 1991, left in old Tenja, how did the Serbs react to it?
10 A. Well, it wasn't easy on them, it wasn't easy on me either, let
11 alone them. So many people got killed. If Kir had been able to calm
12 things, there may have been no war. Everybody was unhappy with so many
13 people being killed, both them and us.
14 Q. Since you lived in old Tenja and had an appreciation of the
15 atmosphere there, right after the murder there do you think that the
16 relatives of the perpetrator, this Gudelj, do you think that they might
17 have been exposed to some sort of vengeance on the part of the family of
18 those killed, for example, or anybody else?
19 A. Well, of course they were afraid after what had happened,
20 especially Gudelj and the parents certainly were not indifferent, but
21 they then stayed indoors.
22 Q. Were they taken to Borovo soon after the event?
23 A. I don't know when exactly they were taken away. They may have
24 stayed for another month or so. I heard that the father was taken to
25 Borovo and beaten there and what have you.
1 Q. Was there talk about them being taken to Borovo in order to avoid
2 their coming to harm in Tenja because of what their son did, so nobody
3 took vengeance on them?
4 A. I heard that they'd been taken to prison and not what their son
5 had done and all that. Now, of course I didn't see whether they were in
6 prison or in hospital.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Previous translation continues]... this document
9 into evidence, please.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I didn't hear you and I think the
11 court reporter didn't hear you.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I would tender this document into
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, may I just ask for what purpose, is it to
16 determine the date of this killing? Is it for that purpose alone?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is relevant for many purposes. First of all,
18 it explains when and locates when the meeting was held and when --
19 because the witness determined the date or the time of the meeting in
20 relation to the killing of Mr. Kir. And here this document establishes
21 the date of the killing of Mr. Kir. And he also spoke about this
22 particular accident, and I think that this document is relevant for this
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, if it helps, we don't dispute that
1 Mr. Kir was killed on the 1st of July, 1991. The article contains a lot
2 of other details which haven't been explored. So if it's simply for that
3 purpose, we won't necessarily have an objection, but I'm not sure if the
4 document is helpful. I don't think that the witness has actually
5 identified it or that he showed any relation or connection to the article
6 itself. There are certain features that he talks about, but again as I
7 say, we don't dispute the fact that this murder happened on the 1st of
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: The document is admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 1D71 will be Exhibit D85.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, you said yesterday: I believe that Gudelj was the
14 president of the HDZ Tenja.
15 A. Yes, I think that he was.
16 Q. Do you know who the president of the SDS of Tenja was?
17 A. Initially the one who allegedly drowned in the Drava but he
18 didn't drown, really, he was killed. And after him it was Mr. Hadzic. I
19 wasn't involved in politics, so I don't really know who was SDS or
20 anything else.
21 Q. I may have been less than precise. I was speaking about the SDS
22 at Tenja. Are you saying that these people were the presidents of the
23 SDS at Tenja or not?
24 A. President of the SDS at Tenja, well, yeah, I believe that it was
25 at Tenja.
1 Q. Please take a look at a photograph, P89.50. Here in this
2 photograph you can see three persons. I'm going to ask you about the one
3 in the centre. Do you know that person? Did you see him?
4 A. The one in the centre, no, I never saw him.
5 Q. We'll look at another photograph. You might be able to recognize
6 someone from a different angle. 1D524.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I will just indicate that in line 19 it should be
8 the president -- president at the Tenja ...
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me if you know this person in the
13 A. No, I don't. Maybe he looks different now, but I don't remember
14 him from before.
15 Q. I'm referring to the time when the photograph was taken, maybe a
16 couple of months later, but the person who -- do you remember seeing that
17 person at Tenja, the way he looks in this photograph?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. Do you know whether there were any attacks of the Croatian forces
20 at Tenja, that is, old Tenja, while you were there at all?
21 A. Once an attempt was made - it wasn't really an attack - an
22 attempt to liberate old Tenja and they came as far as the school, that is
23 the outskirts of Tenja, and then they returned. Why? Because the JNA,
24 or rather, this wasn't really the JNA, it was the reservists from Serbia.
25 They went out in the streets in their tanks and so they withdrew. But
1 when I say "army," I really mean Serbian reservists.
2 Q. That all happened after Kir's murder and the killing of the three
4 A. Yes, after that.
5 Q. According to my information - and I'm aware that you don't
6 remember the exact date - but let me still try to remind you that
7 according to my information that attack happened on the 7th of July,
8 1991. Do you remember that?
9 A. No, I do.
10 Q. Let me show you some -- or rather, let me first ask you if you
11 know that as a consequence of these various events at Tenja there were
12 also trials in Serbia and Croatia after the war?
13 A. Yes, I heard of some trials in Serbia and Croatia.
14 Q. Do you remember who was tried?
15 A. I heard that a trial began in Serbia of Bozo, Rebraca, and what
16 do I know, people from Tenja.
17 Q. We have information --
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D522. It should not be broadcast when
19 shown to the witness. Sorry, it is 1D521. [Interpretation] Page 3 in
20 B/C/S and it should be 4 and 5 in English. It seems that it isn't there
21 yet -- actually, this is where it starts, but we can turn to the
22 following page in English.
23 Q. Briefly I have information that on or about the 30th of June,
24 1991, a meeting was to take place between Mr. Kir and people from Tenja
25 and that meeting --
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In English version in the next page.
2 Q. [Interpretation] That meeting was held and the people who
3 attended included Mirko Tubic, Dr. Mladen Hadzic, Milan Knezevic,
4 Mile Jajic, and Djuro Podunavac. Of the people I have just mentioned --
5 I repeat the last name, Djuro Podunavac. Of the people I mentioned, do
6 you know anyone?
7 A. That Milan Knezevic, Tubic -- I know everybody from Tenja, all of
9 Q. According to my information, they're all from Tenja?
10 A. Haric [as interpreted] is not from Tenja.
11 Q. According to my information, he lived in Tenja, had a house
13 A. I don't know him.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I wonder whether we have the right
15 document on the screen or the right page of the document. In English I
16 mean. I don't read B/C/S. I particularly can't find any of the names
17 that you mentioned on this page.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is one page back, one page back in English
19 version, sorry. Yes. It is the second paragraph.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Sorry.
22 Q. [Interpretation] And I have an accurate description here of that
23 meeting and what happened afterwards as far as Kir is concerned.
24 According to this information, that is just one paragraph before
25 this one, before the one that is on the screen now, you can see --
1 actually, you cannot see because it's not being broadcast, but we have
2 information to the effect that Serbs in Tenja were linked up and that
3 Dr. Mladen Hadzic took part in that among others.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: You seem to say that the witness can't see the
8 document but he has it in front of him. It's not broadcast, but the
9 witness has it in front of him.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, I said that he should not see the document
11 according to your policy not to because it is statement.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: This document actually on the screen?
13 So then I think everybody misunderstood --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, it is --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Nobody understood that it shouldn't be shown to
16 the witness. You said it shouldn't be broadcast. Oh, Judge Hall
17 remembers that you said "or shown to the witness."
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: So no broadcast nor shown to the witness. Sorry
20 about that.
21 Did you take care of that, Mr. Usher. So it's off the witness's
22 screen. Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic --
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry for the interruption.
25 Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just before it leaves the screen, or maybe it
2 just did, page 21, line 6 --
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will have it on the screen, Mr. Demirdjian.
4 The witness doesn't.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No, I'm talking about the transcript. I
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, I'm sorry.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At page 21, line 6, the answer is recorded as
9 "Haric is not from Tenja," and I don't think there's anybody named Haric
10 on this document. Maybe we want to clarify that. The question was:
11 "According to my information they're all from Tenja."
12 And the answer is recorded:
13 "Haric is not in Tenja."
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, it is an error in transcript. It is Hadzic,
15 I spoke about Dr. Mladen Hadzic.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you know when this staff of the Territorial Defence was
19 organised in Tenja?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. And do you know who headed that staff, who the commander of that
22 staff of the Territorial Defence was?
23 A. I heard it was Jovo Rebraca.
24 Q. I'm going to show you, or rather, I'm not going to show you, but
25 actually I'm going to tell you something.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D520. It should not be
2 broadcast or shown to the witness. It's page 1 in both versions, Serbian
3 and English.
4 Q. So the information I have is that it is correct that Jovo Rebraca
5 was commander of this Territorial Defence, organised this staff of the
6 Territorial Defence, and that he was appointed commander. I also have
7 information to the effect that he was appointed to that position by
8 Mladen Hadzic, the then-president of the SDS. Are you aware of that?
9 A. No, I'm not. I wasn't interested in that at all who was the
10 president and head.
11 Q. Could you please tell me now -- actually, you had contact with
12 your neighbour. I think that you said his name was Mile Vukas. And you
13 say he often came to see you to drink brandy?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also said that you heard from him that an attack was being
16 prepared from Stara Tenja to liberate Osijek?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you believe that?
19 A. I didn't believe anything he said because he was a drunkard.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Please tell me when that rally took place, the one that you
22 watched, or rather, the speakers at that rally were about a hundred or
23 150 metres away from you, and you say that a man by the name of Mile was
24 standing next to you. Was it this same Mile or a different one?
25 A. That was Mile Miladinovic.
1 Q. Out of the persons that you mentioned here, can you tell us
2 whether any one of them is still in Tenja, say Miladinovic, Vukas,
3 Rebraca, Vidakovic?
4 A. None of them. They all escaped because they wreaked havoc.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the name of
6 the person who died a year ago as did his wife. And the interpreter did
7 not understand the end of the sentence either.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. If you could please repeat the name of the person who died and
10 the name of his wife because the interpreters could not hear you very
12 A. Mile Miladinovic, and his wife Vasilija Miladinovic. He died a
13 year ago and she died a few months after that.
14 Q. At the time when this rally was being held you were busy, you
15 actually had a job, you were working somewhere nearby, and it is from
16 there that you watched this gathering for a while. Can you tell us what
17 this was, what kind of room that was that you were working in?
18 A. That was the co-operative, the agricultural co-operative, right
19 next door to the local commune. On the left-hand side there was a room
20 where we gathered, we who were on this work platoon.
21 Q. In other words, by then you already had this work obligation?
22 A. Forced labour. I had to work.
23 Q. Can you tell me when this was introduced, this forced labour as
24 you call it? When did that start? When did you have to go to this kind
25 of work?
1 A. As soon as they closed Tenja, you couldn't go there and couldn't
2 come out. Bozo took me out to work and left me there.
3 Q. Can you tell us when? You told us that for a while people could
4 enter and leave Tenja when you wanted to book your father's departure, if
5 I'm not mistaken -- actually, if you cannot recall the exact date, can
6 you sort of orient yourself in relation to these events that you were
7 telling us about. When, when did it become impossible? When was it no
8 longer possible to freely enter or leave Stara Tenja?
9 A. It was no longer possible when the shooting and killing started,
10 things like that. Before that, before nobody was killed, then I had this
11 motorcycle and the neighbours let me pass by and I could get a
12 reservation. Mico told me, "Go and get your father a reservation, but
13 watch out, don't let this person or that person see you." And then I
14 passed by and then there were people driving behind me who were slamming
15 on the brakes. They wanted me to be scared by that. I brought my father
16 the reservation but he didn't want to go.
17 Q. You say "when the shooting ... started." Was that after that
18 attempted attack of the Croatian forces against Stara Tenja or before
20 A. Before that.
21 Q. Was that after the killing of Kir or before that?
22 A. I think it was after Kir was killed.
23 Q. I also have some information to the effect that the first attack
24 of the Croatian forces took place on the 29th of June, 1991, and that it
25 was the house of a certain Zeljko Radosavljevic that was attacked. Do
1 you know who he is, Zeljko Radosavljevic?
2 A. The name rings a bell, but I cannot remember exactly who that is.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D521, page 2 in B/C/S and page 4 through 5
4 on -- in English. It should not be broadcasted or shown to the witness.
5 Q. [Interpretation] And do you know of some family by the name of
6 Radakovic that lived in Stara Tenja at the time?
7 A. Radakovic rings a bell too, but I cannot remember exactly now who
8 that was. It's been 20 years.
9 Q. Well, according to this information that we have, according to
10 this information that we have, on the 29th of July in the evening the
11 first attack of the Croatian forces took place. It was this house that
12 was attacked of the Radakovic family -- the Radosavljevic family, where
13 this family by the name of Radakovic was. Do you remember that precisely
14 on the following day, on the 30th of June - and that was the Croatian
15 holiday, the day of statehood --
16 A. It may have been a holiday, but I don't remember this attack
17 against that house.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It is the 29th of
19 June, not the 29th of July.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Once you said that you saw Goran Hadzic and Arkan in the street
22 on one occasion. Tell me, they walked down your street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know where they came from, from which direction they had
1 A. From the centre of Tenja.
2 Q. And where were they heading?
3 A. Towards the JNA barracks.
4 Q. What is the distance between the centre of Tenja and the JNA
6 A. 3 kilometres, 2 at least.
7 Q. Thank you. Please clarify something to us. It's about what you
8 said today on page 4, line 21. You said about your brother that they
9 wanted to take him to Serbia to go to school. And I would like to know
10 who it was who wanted to take him there?
11 A. There was a list of people who were to go to school to Serbia,
12 but while they were going to school at Tenja he had problems with the son
13 of the Serbian priest. And they were fighting each other. One of them
14 was writing on the board in Serbian and the other word "HDZ," and then
15 this Podunavac accused him of being impertinent and that's why he got
16 scared. And I thought that was the reason why they wanted to take him to
17 Serbia to go to school there so that he would be out of there.
18 Q. Did anyone tell you that there was this plan to take him to
20 A. A man came to my house and told me so.
21 Q. And you understood that to mean that if he went to Serbia to go
22 to school that you would no longer see him?
23 A. Yes, of course. He had such problems in -- at Tenja, and it was
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is talking
1 very fast. Could he please repeat.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you repeat what you have just said because the interpreters
4 could not keep up, as you speak very fast. So if you could repeat
6 A. A man came to my house and he was making a list who was supposed
7 to go school in Serbia, you see, and he asked my brother whether he would
8 go. And he replied, "Do I have to?" And then he said, "Everybody will
9 go so you should go as well." And then we went out. I went to transport
10 some hay of the school principal Podunavac, and I went to his house, that
11 is his mother's house, and he was there. And he explained that, "Your
12 brother attacked the son of the Serbian priest. He fought him. He was
13 waving the Croatian flag." And my brother got scared. And he said,
14 "That's no good." And for a while he was wearing a red, white, and blue
15 cap, which I didn't even know. And then our neighbour came up to me and
16 said, "Can you see what his brother's wearing?" And only then did I
17 realise, and then I took that cap away from him and I hid it. And I
18 understood that they wanted to take him to Serbia to go to school
19 allegedly but that I would never see him again because he did those
20 things in connection with the son of the Serbian priest.
21 Q. And you thought that there was a mere pretext for them to take
22 him away somewhere and possibly kill him and that for that reason you
23 would never see him again?
24 A. Yes, that was the reason. I was afraid they would kill him.
25 Q. But didn't it occur to you that if they wanted to kill him, they
1 could have done so right there at Tenja?
2 A. I didn't really think about that. Well, they might have killed
3 him in Tenja too and said that it happened in Serbia or that he was in
5 Q. Please tell me when you left Tenja you said that a year later you
6 joined the Croatian army. What did you do in the meantime during that
7 one year? I understood that you went to Osijek or some nearby place.
8 A. What I did, I was in Makarska and I rested there to recover from
9 what I had been through at Tenja, my brother and I. I took care of some
10 administrative work for my father for him to receive his pension. I went
11 to Germany a couple of times.
12 Q. Did the Croatian army not draft you?
13 A. No, I wasn't. Only later when I came to I enlisted voluntarily.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. President, I see the clock.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed, Mr. Zivanovic, a few minutes before
16 but that's okay.
17 Mr. Knezevic, we'll take the first break now, 30 minutes. We'll
18 come back at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of the
19 courtroom. Thank you.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Knezevic, you spoke a lot about
3 Bozo Vidakovic. I don't want to repeat all you said. Instead, let me
4 ask you if you know that he had a nickname?
5 A. His nickname was Ustasha.
6 Q. And he had that nickname from before the war?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And both Serbs and Croats all called him that?
9 A. The Serbs called him that; the Croats didn't.
10 Q. Now about your testimony about that rally in front of the local
11 commune. Yesterday you said that Hadzic spoke there and Rebraca. You
12 also said that Arkan and Hadzic walked down the street where you lived.
13 Let me first ask you if those two events happened on the same day or not?
14 A. No, it was on -- those events were on two different days.
15 Q. You said that you were watching that first event from some 100 or
16 150 metres. I'm now interested in the other event. Did you see that or
17 did you learn that from Vukas?
18 A. He said that they were going to talk about doing what is required
19 to reach Osijek.
20 Q. In other words, did you see them yourself or were you told that
21 they had passed by?
22 A. I saw two men in uniforms walking down the street.
23 Q. Let us clarify one more thing. If I understood your last reply
24 correctly, you saw two people in uniforms passing by and he told you who
25 they were?
1 A. Yes, Hadzic and the other.
2 Q. To be crystal clear about my question and the context in which I
3 mentioned Dr. Mladen Hadzic and all these events, let me tell you that
4 the position of the Defence is that Goran Hadzic was not at Tenja at that
5 time, at the time of that rally, or at the time when those two men walked
6 down your street. I wanted to put that to you so you know.
7 A. I know that he was.
8 Q. That's based on what you've said so far?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions. [In English]
12 Thank you, Your Honours, I finished my cross-examination.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
14 Mr. Demirdjian, anything in re-direct?
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
17 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Knezevic.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. You were asked a few questions in relation to your brother.
20 Could you tell us at the time of the events in 1991 how old your brother
22 A. He was in the eighth form, which means that he was about 15.
23 Q. Very well. On a different subject now, you were asked about the
24 attempt by the Croatian forces to -- what you say was to liberate old
25 Tenja. Do you remember that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When this attempt takes place, can you tell us at that time what
3 were the conditions like in Tenja?
4 A. You mean when that attack on Tenja started? I was in my house.
5 I didn't dare go out until the army went out with their tanks. I only
6 heard from the neighbours that an attack had been launched from Osijek,
7 but I didn't see anything. But then the army drove down our street with
8 tanks, and then that man Bozo appeared with a megaphone and ordered
9 everybody to open their gates so that civilians could enter. I saw
10 civilians out there. I opened the gate but nobody came to my yard
11 because they knew I was a Croat.
12 Q. Now, what I would like to understand is, when this attempt takes
13 place, when the Croatian forces to liberate Tenja, how much -- well, when
14 was this if you were to situate it in relation to the killing of Kir. Is
15 it before or after and how much time approximately?
16 A. As far as I remember, it was after that. But I don't remember
17 how much later. And I heard of that operation but I didn't see it. I
18 heard that there was the army and that civilians were fleeing, but I
19 didn't dare leave the house. I was indoors with my parents.
20 Q. Very well. Now, in my examination earlier yesterday, I had asked
21 you after you had seen Goran Hadzic at the rally, how many times had you
22 seen him afterwards --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He -- I don't believe that it is cited properly.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let me rephrase it.
1 Q. You told us yesterday that you saw a man who you were told was
2 Goran Hadzic at the rally. Afterwards I asked you had you seen him
3 again. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes, I remember.
5 Q. Today in an answer to my learned friend you said:
6 "I saw two men in uniforms walking down the street."
7 When you saw them, who were they? Did you know who they were?
8 A. I knew when Mile told me that they were Hadzic and Arkan.
9 Q. Okay. And how much time after you saw them did Mile tell you?
10 A. I was with him when they came up, and that's when he said that
11 and they had moved a bit away from my house.
12 Q. Thank you for answering my questions.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That concludes my re-examination, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Knezevic, this concludes your testimony. We
17 thank you, once again, for assisting the Tribunal. You are now released
18 as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back home. The court usher
19 will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you very much.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too and good-bye.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, we don't have other witnesses for
24 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President. That was the last witness on
25 this week's schedule.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. If there's nothing else, court adjourned
2 for the week. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.12 a.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of
5 July, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.