1 Monday, 15 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton;
15 Thomas Laugel; legal intern, Kai Hong Leung.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 GH-145. Is that it, Mr. Stringer, or Ms. Clanton?
22 MR. STRINGER: Correct.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The witness may be brought in.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good Morning, Witness.
1 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I take it your testimony will be in English.
3 THE WITNESS: It will.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Could you please state your name and
5 your date of birth.
6 THE WITNESS: My name is Aernout van Lynden. I was born on the
7 31st of December, 1954.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. van Lynden you are about to make
9 the solemn declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the
10 truth. I have to point out to you that by doing so you commit -- you
11 expose yourself to the penalties of perjury should you give false or
12 untruthful information to this Court.
13 May I now ask you to take the solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
18 Ms. Clanton, your witness.
19 MS. CLANTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Ms. Clanton:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Do you recall giving a statement to representatives of the
24 Office of the Prosecutor in May of this year?
25 A. I do.
1 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask for the assistance of the
2 Registry, please, to pull up 65 ter 06425, statement dated 24th of May,
3 2013. This is at tab number 1.
4 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, do you recognise this as the statement that
5 you gave to the OTP?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And could you please look at the signature on the bottom right of
8 the English version. Do you recognise the signature?
9 A. Bottom right. That would be yours.
10 Q. Bottom left. Excuse me.
11 A. That would be mine.
12 Q. If we could now turn to the last page of the statement, which is
13 page 36 in e-court.
14 Now do you recognise the signature at the bottom right of this
16 A. Yes, I do. That's my signature.
17 Q. And since your signed this statement in May, have you had an
18 opportunity to review it?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. And if I were to ask you the same questions today, as I asked at
21 the time that you gave your statement, would you provide the same
23 A. I would hope so, yes.
24 Q. And now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
25 the accuracy and truthfulness of your statement?
1 A. I do.
2 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
3 65 ter 06425 into evidence along with the associated exhibits, pursuant
4 to Rule 92 ter.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2333, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, with the usher's assistance, I would
9 like to provide a hard copy of the statement to the witness. If the
10 Defence would like to look at it that's fine, of course.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
12 MS. CLANTON:
13 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, I would like to start today by asking you a
14 few additional questions about your professional background.
15 In your statement in paragraph 7 you stated that before you
16 became a journalist you were a member of the Royal Netherlands Marine
17 Corps. What specific training did you receive?
18 A. I served in the Dutch marine corps as a reservist. We had still
19 national service in this country. I did one year officer training and
20 then served for just over a year as a second lieutenant, so that was
21 general infantry training as a platoon commander and separately to that
22 once I had become a second lieutenant I was given mortar platoon training
23 as a commander of mortar platoon.
24 Q. And then I understand from your statement at paragraph 8 that you
25 worked as a war correspondent for roughly 23 years and then in 2001 when
1 you left Sky News.
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. How are you currently employed?
4 A. I'm employed by Leiden university as a lecturer at Leiden
5 University College here in The Hague.
6 Q. And when did you begin working there?
7 A. I began working at Leiden University College two years ago.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly requested to make
9 pauses between question and answer for the purpose of interpretation
10 because this pace is impossible to interpreter. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: My apologies.
12 MS. CLANTON: I apologise as well to the interpreter.
13 Q. Mr. van Lynden, what subjects do you teach at Leiden University
14 College The Hague?
15 A. I teach courses in war studies and in journalism.
16 Q. And now I have a preliminary question concerning the video-clips
17 that form part of your statement. To avoid any confusion later, can you
18 tell the Chamber who is the person speaking in all of the Sky News clips
19 that we reviewed and that form part of your statement?
20 A. You're referring to myself, to my voice over.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to turn back to 1991. And at
22 paragraph 24 of your statement you've described that in the late summer
23 and in the early Autumn, you travelled regularly from Belgrade to the
24 front lines in eastern Croatia. You've said that you followed two
25 different routes.
1 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask for the Registrar's assistance,
2 please, to pull up 65 ter 01927. This is ERN 07066872, and it's a map of
3 north western Serbia and eastern Croatia, and it appears at tab number
4 44. And I would like to ask for the usher's assistance, please, to
5 provide Mr. van Lynden with the pen in order to mark the map.
6 Now -- Mr. van Lynden, this map does not show Belgrade but are
7 you able to mark for the Chamber the southern route that you followed
8 into Croatia?
9 A. Yes. We would come along this road to a place called Sid, then
10 continue to Oriolik and then go up past Negoslavci into Vukovar.
11 Q. Thank you. And while we still have this map, can you tell the
12 Chamber, please, what you recall about the route that you took when you
13 travelled into Croatia via the northern route.
14 A. Then we would -- where precisely the road -- I imagine is this
15 road from Belgrade. How we precisely drove, I -- but we would then take
16 the road to here, and here there is a bridge across the river Danube,
17 Your Honour, to the place of Erdut.
18 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time I would like to tender
19 this map as marked into evidence, please, 65 ter 01927.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2334, Your Honours.
22 MS. CLANTON: Thank you. We could make the map down, please.
23 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you've
24 indicated that you returned to Belgrade every day after reporting in
25 eastern Croatia. How frequently were you required to sent a story to
1 your office in London?
2 A. Basically every single day. Sky News was 24-hour news channel so
3 basically I had 24 deadlines a day, what one could have on certain days,
4 but certainly one story a day.
5 Q. Thank you. And when you're reporting during the war in Croatia
6 from Belgrade, what did you observe about the coverage of the war by the
7 local television networks?
8 A. Basically in 1991 you had the state broadcaster, Belgrade
9 television. We were actually based inside it and we had a room inside
10 Belgrade television where we could edit our material and that was also
11 the -- what we call the feed point by satellite of our story to London.
12 So I did see quite a bit of what was going -- being put out on Belgrade
13 television. Of course, it had to be translated to me. I do not speak
14 Serbo-Croat. But I had both a producer in Belgrade and a field producer
15 who came into the field with me, both of them were Yugoslavs. They would
16 translate for me and what we basically heard was night after night when I
17 would call an incitement to hatred, saying that the Serbs were threatened
18 by what was usually called the Ustashi, a reference to the Fascist Croat
19 state during the Second World War, and this -- this threat and the
20 pictures were often -- that were often shown were indeed those of the
21 past of the fighting and the massacres that had taken place during the
22 Second World War.
23 Later on, of course, when the fighting really broke out in
24 Croatia they would show pictures of that fighting going on, but they
25 always made it clear that they felt that they were fighting a Fascist
1 Croat side.
2 Q. Thank you for that explanation.
3 The next topic that I would like to ask you about is what you saw
4 and what you experienced when you travelled on the southern route that
5 you've just marked for the Judges.
6 In your statement, at paragraph 26, you've described how you
7 needed two passes each day to access Croatia via the highway from
8 Belgrade: First, from the Ministry of Defence in Belgrade and another in
9 Sid. When you were in Sid, can you tell us who you met with?
10 A. A small office had been set up manned by three or four people
11 from the Ministry of Defence. As far as I recall, a couple of guys, and
12 a couple of ladies. And we would -- I don't remember the -- precisely
13 whether we needed to get a second pass or we needed to get our pass from
14 Belgrade stamped but we certainly had to pass by the office and show that
15 we did have a pass -- had gotten a pass the previous evening from the
16 Ministry of Defence in Belgrade.
17 Q. Now, in addition to the people that you've described who worked
18 in this office related to the pass that you had received or had stamped
19 in Sid, do you recall if you met with any particular people when you were
20 in Sid?
21 A. Not really. Not in Sid, no. Outside of Sid, we -- we were on
22 one -- on several occasions brought to one of the JNA Yugoslav army
23 generals, General Arandjelovic. But he was not in Sid itself.
24 Q. Thank you for the clarification.
25 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask the assistance of Mr. Laugel,
1 please, to play a video-clip. This clip has 65 ter number 05030.6. It
2 is an excerpt of the video bearing ERN V000-4590. The clip runs from
3 34 minutes and 3 seconds to 36 minutes and 23 seconds. There's a
4 Sky News report and an associated exhibit and it can be found at
5 tab number 35. And I would like to for Mr. Laugel to play this and pause
6 at the time code at 34 minutes and 16 seconds, please.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 "Major-General Arandjelovic, field commander on the Vukovar front
9 explains how and where a relief column will be let through his lines to
10 the besieged Croat forces inside the strategic town ..."
11 MS. CLANTON:
12 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, can you tell us who you recognise in this
13 still at 34 minutes and 16 seconds?
14 A. A somewhat younger version of myself and
15 Major-General Arandjelovic.
16 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. van Lynden, [indiscernible] Arandjelovic
17 just mentioned to you that there would be a relief column. I'd like to
18 ask that other than the topic of relief columns what were the other
19 subjects of your discussions with General Arandjelovic?
20 A. What the situation on the ground was, as far as the fighting was
21 concerned, and for us personally to get access to those front lines.
22 This was not the first time that we met the general. These pictures that
23 you have just shown. And the first time we saw him we asked him about
24 the deployment of Yugoslav army troops, of the state of the battle, and
25 then we asked him about personal access for us to the front lines.
1 He gave it. The very first time we met him he actually saw to it
2 that an armoured car, that we were put into one of his armoured cars to
3 be taken to the front line where fighting was still taking place. That
4 was the village of Ilaca which was then still -- where the houses were
5 still burning, so it had only just been taken. On other occasions
6 including this one, when we met him - this is much later - he said yes we
7 would have access to the front lines and also be able to actually see
8 this relief column enter Vukovar and we were stopped in Negoslavci by a
9 much lower officer who said that we could not continue.
10 Q. Thank you. If we could actually now play this video-clip to
11 34 minutes and 45 seconds, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 "... in Eastern Slavonia.
14 "The army sticks to the cease-fire and wants to do what we agreed
15 with the Croats, so today we will enable them to take a convoy of food,
16 medicine, and fuel into Vukovar and take out their sick and wounded.
17 "At high speed under military escort, we are taken to the front
18 line village where the general has arranged for the relief convoy to
19 cross army lines. Just outside Vukovar, we are stopped and told a
20 different story."
21 MS. CLANTON:
22 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, I briefly just explained to the Chamber
23 about the time that General Arandjelovic told you about this convoy and
24 that you were stopped. Can you confirm the name of the village in this
1 A. We were in Negoslavci.
2 Q. And how frequently did this occur, that you had a pass from the
3 Ministry of Defence in Belgrade and that it had been acknowledged or
4 supplemented in Sid but that you were still stopped on the road?
5 A. Well, we were always stopped because there were check-points.
6 What we didn't know is whether we were going to get through the
7 check-points. Even with the general's permission sometimes we were
8 stopped, other points we were let through. It was an uncertainty every
9 single day we went to Vukovar and there were several days that we did not
10 get to the front line simply because we were stopped and no particular
11 reason was given to us.
12 Q. Thank you. And in this footage that we've just seen, you said
13 that you had an army escort. I would like to know if you were aware of
14 any journalist who travelled to the front lines with any other armed
16 A. Yes. Other journalists from Belgrade did go to the front lines
17 around Vukovar with paramilitary units, not with the JNA.
18 Q. Thank you. And now turning to what you told us a moment ago
19 about Ilaca, you mentioned to the Chamber - and this in paragraph 27 and
20 28 of your statement as well - that you went through Ilaca and in your
21 statement it also says Tovarnik. I want to ask you what did you observe
22 in these towns, or villages, excuse me?
23 A. That there had been heavy fighting, that considerable damage had
24 been done to practically every house. Certain houses were completely
25 burnt out. Other houses had been at least partially destroyed by heavier
1 gun-fire, probably from tanks. That there were -- was no one living
2 there anymore. No more civilians. And, as I said earlier, in Ilaca, the
3 houses were actually still burning.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance
6 again, please, to pull up a video-clip that is 65 ter 05030.5. This is
7 an excerpt of the same video but with time code 15:37 to 18 minutes and
8 the Sky News report as well and an associated exhibit which can be found
9 at tab 34.
10 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I've been asked to pause between the end of the
11 clip and my question so that the transcript can catch up so that's why I
12 will taking a brief pause.
13 MS. CLANTON: And I would like for Mr. Laugel to pause at the
14 time code at 16 minutes and 2 seconds, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "Some of them head straight for the front. Heavy armour and
17 lines of civilian trucks carrying logistics for an army which is once
18 again reinforcing its forces on the front lines of eastern Croatia. They
19 pass through the ruins of Tovarnik, a mixed village which fell into Serb
20 hands a week ago. Although ..."
21 MS. CLANTON:
22 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in the clip that we just saw, you said that the
23 village was in ruins and that it fell into Serb hands one week prior.
24 From the time that you spent in this village, can you tell us who you
25 heard was responsible for it the attack on Tovarnik?
1 A. It was -- I don't think anybody told us any differently. It had
2 been attacked by the JNA and the Serb territorials.
3 Q. And do you know where it was attacked from?
4 A. I imagine from -- from Serbia.
5 Q. And, again, in paragraph 27 of your statement, you commented that
6 you saw destruction in Ilaca, which we saw in the video-clip, Oriolik and
7 Negoslavci. I would like to ask you to describe the degree of
8 destruction in Negoslavci compared to what you saw in the other towns.
9 A. In Tovarnik the destruction was severe. Where you have halted
10 the video, this is one of the two churches, Your Honours, in Tovarnik and
11 both the churches had been destroyed. And the destruction was widespread
12 to the houses.
13 In the next village, that is Ilaca, towards Vukovar, as I said
14 earlier, all houses -- or all the houses -- most of the houses were
15 burning when we actually arrived there. The village had only just a day
16 or so before fallen into the hands of the JNA.
17 As we got closer to Vukovar, the destruction was not as severe.
18 In the village of Oriolik and Negoslavci, as far as I recall today, yes,
19 there were signs that there had been fighting but there was nothing like
20 the destruction that we had seen in Tovarnik and Ilaca.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. CLANTON: Now if I could ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance, I
23 would like to play the same clip again but starting at 16:30 and to
24 time code 16:45, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "Further from the fronts at corps HQ, the last Serb reservists to
2 be mobilised are unloaded from a bus. An unhappy looking bunch, they
3 realise as does their general the kind of war they'll be engaged in."
4 MS. CLANTON:
5 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in this clip, you've said that you're filming
6 further from the front at the corps HQ, and we see the buses with
7 reservists who you indicated have come from Serbia. Are you able to tell
8 the Chamber where this is being filmed?
9 A. This was in, as far as I recall, in -- in Serbia, near -- near
11 Q. Thank you. And you've stated that the general of these men
12 talked to you about the fighting that they would be engaged in. Who is
13 the general?
14 A. The general that you see here is the same general we saw before,
15 General Arandjelovic.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. This is my first meeting with him.
18 Q. Now, in paragraph 25 of your statement you've described crossing
19 into Croatia at Erdut and going to a grain silo that had been captured
20 near the village of Brsadin. I'd like to know for the Chamber, please,
21 how did you get directions to travel from Erdut to this silo?
22 A. We indeed crossed over the bridge and the Danube from Serbia into
23 Croatia at -- at the town of Erdut. There, we passed by the office of
24 the defendant and I introduced my field producer to him. We met up with
25 local journalists, and I cannot today recall precisely who informed us
1 that the grain silo had fallen into Serb hands, and -- but someone did
2 and said they would take us there and we went with a few local
3 journalists and, as I recall, members what were called the
4 Territorial Defence forces and -- were driven to the silo and filmed it.
5 Q. And can you briefly describe for the Chamber the significance of
6 the taking of this grain silo for the Serbs.
7 A. Eastern Slavonia, Your Honours, is flat, and, therefore, a grain
8 silo of this size means that you have captured the high ground,
9 particularly important for artillery observers who could then bring in
10 fire on various targets that otherwise would not be seen with more
12 MS. CLANTON: I would like to ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance
13 again, please, to play the video-clip that is 65 ter number 05030.4.
14 This is once again an excerpt of the video with the ERN number V000-4590.
15 It runs from 6 minutes and 29 seconds to 8 minutes and 38 seconds. This
16 is also a Sky News report and an associated exhibit which is at tab 33.
17 And I would like for Mr. Laugel to please play from the beginning and
18 then pause at 7 minutes and 7 seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "The giant grain silo on the edge of the town of Borovo Naselje.
21 Cease-fire or no cease-fire, it is the larges conquest of the Serbs, a
22 crucial one. The silo forms the high-ground on the battle field of
23 eastern Croatia. On Monday it was still in the hands of the Croats, and
24 now after a brief fierce fight, it's the Serb snipers whose eyes roam
25 over the whole terrain of their foes now besieged on practically all
1 sides. As ever, both sides blame the other for this latest violation of
2 Sunday's brittle truce. And sporadically the ..."
3 MS. CLANTON:
4 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, in this still at 7 minutes and 7 seconds,
5 can you identify, please, the towns and villages that have visible?
6 A. This is Borovo Naselje and Vukovar.
7 MS. CLANTON: And if Mr. Laugel could please now play to the end
8 of the clip.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 "... violations continue. As do the preparations for further
11 fire-fights in days ahead.
12 "With their capture of this strategic point, these village
13 militiamen have made it all too clear that they have no belief in the
14 current cease-fire, and no real wish to abide by it. For them the fall
15 of Borovo Naselje has been postponed, but in their opinion, only very
17 "Most of the militiamen are locals, an unlikely collection of old
18 and young inhabitants of the neighbouring village of Brsadin, who, their
19 duty on the front line done, return home with a strange mixture of
20 acquisitions. Others scan the grounds for booby-traps and mines, finding
21 several of the latter, disposing of them in time-honoured fashion -
22 length of fuse attached to dynamite, and ignited by a match.
23 "In Brsadin, the mood is surprising relaxed. These farmers
24 turned militiamen waiting for the battle to recommence, none of them
25 doubts that it will, and that with the capture of the silo, the Serbian's
1 noose around the Croats of Borovo Naselje has been tightened another
2 crucial notch, making the fate of the town a deadly certainty.
3 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News."
4 MS. CLANTON:
5 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in this last segment you've commented on the
6 village militiamen who you encountered who were of various ages and
7 occupations. How common was it for you to encounter armed Serb groups of
8 a similar composition in the villages that you travelled through?
9 A. My experience is that there was a difference in the people that I
10 encountered on the northern route into the battle of Borovo Naselje and
11 Vukovar and on the southern route. On the southern route it was
12 basically, although not solely, but basically the JNA, although we did at
13 certain moments see paramilitary units as well.
14 On the northern route it was a mixture. There were JNA officers
15 there and JNA soldiers but there were also Territorial Defence and
16 paramilitaries as well. It was more of a mix on the northern than on the
17 southern one.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you what types of heavy
19 weaponry that you saw being used against Borovo Naselje and Vukovar.
20 A. Well, in a previous clip, you saw a tank driving through Tovarnik
21 on its way to Vukovar and there were tanks of various sorts deployed
22 around Vukovar and Borovo Naselje.
23 Aside from that, there was heavy artillery of various calibres
24 which we also filmed, multiple-rocket-launchers, heavy mortars,
25 120-millimetre mortars, but also in -- during the fighting in Vukovar
1 itself, we also saw the use of light mortars, 60-millimetre mortars.
2 Really, the whole scalar of what an army has in -- in terms of heavy
3 weaponry was deployed during the siege and fighting for Vukovar.
4 MS. CLANTON: If I could ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance again to
5 play video-clip 65 ter number 05030.8. This is from the same video as
6 the prior clip, and it has time code 19:56 to 21 minutes and 12 seconds.
7 This is also a Sky News report and is an associated exhibit which can be
8 found at tab 37. And I would ask for Mr. Laugel to play this video and
9 pause at 20 minutes and 29 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "More ordinance streaks for the skies bound for the Croatian
12 front lines in Slavonia. Further proof of Yugoslavia's crumbling
13 cease-fire. The rains have no halted the staggering built-up by the
14 federal army, around the besieged Croatian towns of Vukovar and Vinkovci.
15 On the roads which are fast becoming covered by mud, the columns of
16 armoured Jeeps and truck, are almost continuous, and they're heading in
17 only one direction - to the front."
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Mr. van Lynden, at the beginning of the segment we saw repetitive
20 firing and what you said was that this ordnance was bound for the
21 Croatian front lines in Slavonia. What kind of weaponry is being used?
22 A. That was multiple-rocket-launcher fire, also known previously as
23 Stalin's Organ. These are a bunch of tubes usually on the back of a
24 truck, and they are capable of -- of this kind of sustained, if not very
25 precise, fire.
1 Q. And you've just mentioned that the fire was not very precise from
2 this kind of weapon. Could you elaborate a bit more based on your
3 experience about the impact that's caused by this kind of weaponry?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the counsel make pauses
5 between questions and answers, please.
6 MS. CLANTON: I apologise.
7 THE WITNESS: This kind of ordinance will -- you cannot target
8 with multiple-rocket-launcher fire a precise target. It hits an area, a
9 rough area. It is specifically effective if once troops are coming under
10 attack from a -- an opposing side, specifically also, of course, an
11 infantry attack. Artillery fire from a -- can be much, much more
12 precise. If can be indeed, if there artillery, observers seeing where
13 the shells land. They can be brought absolutely precisely on one
14 particular target. And that is not possible with
15 multiple-rocket-launcher fire.
16 MS. CLANTON:
17 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, what did you see or what were you told about
18 return fire from the Croat side?
19 A. I was both told and what I witnessed was that the only return
20 fire and on any occasion was small-arms fire. When we were in Vukovar
21 itself, later on during the battle, the Yugoslav troops that we were with
22 said that they -- one of their biggest problems really was booby-traps,
23 mines, but it was clear from every time that we went to Vukovar that the
24 Croats did not have the kind of heavy weaponry. They had no artillery,
25 and one felt safe and everybody just walked around quite close to the
1 front lines and that is also a signal that there -- the opposing side did
2 not have the kind of heavy weaponry that the Serbs did.
3 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about the first time that you
4 entered Vukovar in October of 1991.
5 In paragraph 33 of your statement, you've described entering
6 Vukovar and going to the barracks from the southern route and that you
7 were transported there in an armoured personnel carrier. Do you recall
8 who it was who arranged for you to go to the barracks on that day?
9 A. Yes, I do. That was -- again it was General Arandjelovic.
10 Q. And how would you describe the condition of the barracks
12 A. The barracks, Your Honours, had been besieged. This was a Croat
13 tactic throughout Croatia, besieging the barracks of the JNA, of the
14 Yugoslav Army to stop the army from being able to move out of them, and
15 this had also occurred at Vukovar. Whilst we were not in a position
16 because this was a front line and there was shooting going on, small-arms
17 fire, all around, when we arrived there, the barracks basically were --
18 had not been destroyed and -- and [indiscernible] there were marks of
19 rifle fire but nothing heavier than that.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. CLANTON: If I could ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance to play
22 65 ter 05030.9. This is part of the same video with the ERN ending in
23 the digits 4590. This clip is from 29 minutes and 44 seconds to
24 31 minutes and 36 seconds. It's also a Sky News report, an associated
25 exhibit at tab 38.
1 I would like for this clip to be played from the time code
2 29 minutes and 59 seconds to 30 minutes and 14 seconds, please.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 "After five days of fierce combat the army has established
5 control only over the south western part of the city. Their barracks
6 once besieged have been relieved and it is in the bunkers there that the
7 battle for the streets above is co-ordinated."
8 MS. CLANTON:
9 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in paragraph 37 of your statement, you said that
10 some of the people that you interviewed said that the fighting in Vukovar
11 was being waged in order to liberate the barracks and you said that was
12 done in October of 1991. And so after that point you were not convinced
13 that that was the correct reason for the continuation of the fighting?
14 And I want to ask if you could confirm for the Chamber what it
15 was that you saw that led you to this conclusion.
16 A. Quite simply that the fighting continued. And it -- the --
17 the -- the barracks, blockade of the barracks had been broken through.
18 But the fighting in Vukovar, the shelling of Vukovar - and this is
19 continual heavy shelling of Vukovar - continued right up until its fall a
20 month later.
21 Q. Now I want to ask you about your experience in Vukovar when you
22 spent the night there from the 12th to the 13th of November, 1991. And
23 this is in paragraph 36 of your statement.
24 In that paragraph, you said that the atmosphere at night was
25 strange and spooky because the Serbs were blaring nationalist Serb music
1 at the Croats to taunt them. Were there lyrics to this music?
2 A. As far as I recall, yes there were. It is the only instance,
3 Your Honours, in my whole career that I've been in a war zone where one
4 side starts playing music at the other. It was very eery. It seemed
5 like something out of a -- a film, not a particularly good film. And we
6 were told and I was told also by -- I had my field producer with me who
7 said these were nationalist Serb songs and that they were played to taunt
8 the Croat defenders of Vukovar. We were with a guards unit of the
9 Yugoslav army, and they said that this music was being played by
10 paramilitaries not by the army.
11 Q. The next topic I'd like to ask you about is the events on the
12 morning of the 18th of November, 1991, when you attended a press briefing
13 in Negoslavci.
14 Now this is in paragraph 38 of your statement. And what you've
15 said is that you attended ...
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Prosecutor, sorry to
17 interrupt you. I would like to ask a question to the witness.
18 Mr. van Lynden, before moving to the next topic, as
19 Madam Prosecutor just suggested, I would like to come back on what you
20 described earlier on. We've watched several videos showing destructions
21 in Tovarnik, Ilaca, and even in Vukovar.
22 With regard to Tovarnik and Ilaca, on transcript page 12, it was
23 said that houses had been burnt and destroyed, even churches. But, at
24 the same time, you said that heavy fighting was going on, using artillery
25 and heavy artillery weapons.
1 My question is the following: On the basis of your experience,
2 destroying churches and houses, was it due to this heavy fighting or not?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, the heavy fighting in Tovarnik and Ilaca had
4 taken place before I was there. But if you see houses are destroyed and
5 houses are still burning, one reaches the conclusion that the fighting
6 was heavy.
7 Everything that I saw in Eastern Slavonia was that the heavy
8 weaponry, the heavy artillery, the tanks, only belonged to one side, and
9 that the other side did not have such weaponry.
10 So if I see a house that is being destroyed through tank fire,
11 then my conclusion was relatively simple, that that had been done by the
12 JNA rather than by the Croats.
13 Does that answer your question?
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much. For
15 the time being, that will suffice.
16 MS. CLANTON: May I continue, Your Honour?
17 JUDGE MINDUA: Yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
19 MS. CLANTON:
20 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we were speaking about paragraph 38 of your
21 statement and the press briefing that you attended on the
22 18th of November, 1991, as given by Mr. Sljivancanin. I'd like to ask
23 you what you recall about the language that Mr. Sljivancanin was using
24 during that briefing.
25 A. We had arrived in Negoslavci to go to Vukovar. We had not been
1 aware before we arrived there that we would get this briefing and,
2 indeed, that there would be a surrender of Croat forces, but we were
3 stopped in Negoslavci. We knew Mr. Sljivancanin and we were invited to
4 the briefing, and he then explained what was going to happen, or -- and
5 that he -- he -- the other that really we noticed was that he only spoke
6 about the Ustashi. He never spoke about the Croats. And I remember that
7 that struck us.
8 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, do you recall if he said anything about the
9 duration of the continuing battle?
10 A. As far as I recall, what he said was that either they surrender
11 now or we will destroy them in a matter of hours.
12 MS. CLANTON: And I would like for Mr. Laugel to please assist by
13 bringing up video-clip 65 ter 04775.1. This is part of the video with
14 the ERN V000-0625. And this is an excerpt that runs from the beginning
15 of the tape to 16 minutes and 9 seconds. It was not filmed by Sky News,
16 and it is not an associated exhibit. It appears at tab 5, and we're
17 going to play a short excerpt, beginning at 4 minutes and 10 seconds and
18 playing until 5 minutes and 59 seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MS. CLANTON: Perhaps to assist the interpreters, I should repeat
21 the 65 ter number: 65 ter 04775.1.
22 And, Mr. Laugel, they've indicated we can start again from the
23 same point, from 4 minutes and 10 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... about the transport of those
1 Ustashas and then we will provide all the vehicles, all the medical aid,
2 and everything necessary for the hospital to be evacuated from Vukovar
3 and that all the other civilians who are being kept by -- as hostages by
4 them be helped. And they are kept in the shelters and in the area of the
5 hospital north of the river Vuka. He replied to us that a possibility
6 exists that there are such extremists who would try to fire at us, at our
7 soldiers. We have warned Mr. Vidic that we will not attack or open fire
8 if he guarantees that our soldiers will not be fired upon. If they
9 resort to any kind of trick or try to do anything outside of what has
10 been agreed, we told him, also, that we will point around 100 artillery
11 weapons directly at them, and we will not spare anything anymore.
12 "Q. You won't spare anyone?
13 "A. No. We will spare the people and the citizens. The
14 Ustashas, no. At this moment, we have such forces and means that in two
15 hours we could also finish off this last job that has to be done."
16 MS. CLANTON:
17 Q. Mr. van Lynden, do you recognise the speaker in this clip?
18 A. Yes. This is Mr. Sljivancanin.
19 Q. And where were you while he was giving this speech?
20 A. In the room.
21 Q. And we just heard Mr. Sljivancanin say that they could finish
22 this last job which had to be done in two hours.
23 What impression did this speech of his leave on you?
24 A. It had been clear to us earlier also when we had spent a night in
25 Vukovar on the front lines that the battle was drawing to a close. What
1 he was saying now was that, after basically a three-month siege of the
2 city, that the army was now in a position to finish the whole thing, also
3 militarily, in a couple of hours. Given the enormous overweight of heavy
4 weaponry and of manpower, I had very little doubt that if he had used all
5 of that that there would have been a bloodbath, really.
6 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
7 65 ter 04775.1 into evidence, please.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2335, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Could I ask for some more water, please.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Of course.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 MS. CLANTON:
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, later that same day, on the
16 18th of November, 1991, you stated in paragraph 41 of your statement that
17 you witnessed the departure of several thousands persons, including men,
18 women, and children.
19 Can you tell the Chamber, please, what is the name of the part of
20 Vukovar where these people came from.
21 A. I recall being told that they came from the Mitnica area of
23 MS. CLANTON: And now I'd like to ask to please play a video-clip
24 with 65 ter 04973.2. This is part of the video with ERN V000-6475, and
25 it goes from 12 minutes and 1 seconds to 14 minutes and 10 seconds. And
1 this is a Sky News report and associated exhibit, and appears at tab 24.
2 And I would like for Mr. Laugel to play this clip beginning at 13 minutes
3 and 12 seconds and carrying on to 13 minutes and 22 seconds, please.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Many Croats had feared a massacre but this operation is well
6 run. There's not even any taunting. Federal soldiers looking on in
7 inquisitive silence."
8 MS. CLANTON:
9 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, on what day did you file this report?
10 A. On the same day.
11 Q. And in your report, you've stated that there were fears of a
12 massacre. Can you explain why you reported this?
13 A. Well, for two different reasons: Firstly, as we've just heard,
14 one of the army commanders at Vukovar had threatened to bring down, to
15 bear all his heavy weaponry, use it all, against the remaining fighters
16 and -- but also the remaining population in Vukovar; secondly, this was a
17 war between neighbours, people who had -- used to belong in one country
18 where there had already been massacres. And there was a fear, I think, a
19 general fear, amongst all outsiders that if a town like Vukovar fell,
20 that there could well be a massacre of some kind. And we, as outside
21 observers, which is what journalists are, were there also for the reason
22 that we hoped that our mere presence would stop that kind of thing from
24 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you about the persons that
25 you encountered in the centre of Vukovar on the 19th of November, 1991,
1 and this is at paragraph 44 of your statement.
2 In that paragraph, you've indicated that in the town centre you
3 saw persons who identified themselves as Seselj's men or Chetniks,
4 celebrating in the street. And you also said that close to the hotel
5 there were freshly dead bodies who had been shot.
6 From what you could see from these freshly dead bodies, how were
7 they dressed?
8 A. In civilian clothes.
9 MS. CLANTON: And I would like to ask for Mr. Laugel to assist,
10 please, by bringing up the video-clip with 65 ter 05033.3. This is part
11 of the video with the ERN V000-4593 and the clip runs from 12 seconds to
12 6 minutes and 38 seconds. It is also a Sky News report prepared by
13 Mr. van Lynden and an associated exhibit, which is at tab 39. And I
14 would like to start this clip at 4 minutes and 14 seconds and play to
15 5 minutes and 29 seconds, please.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 "Amongst the horror there is the surreal incongruity of
18 celebration, extremist Serb militiaman and women posing triumphantly for
19 an end-of-battle photograph before returning to a morning feast of music
20 and laughter, fueled by alcohol.
21 "The motto on their flag is freedom or death and they vow they
22 will fight on.
23 "No, it is not finished.
24 "What do you, the Serbs need to take before the war is over?
25 "War will be over when we have our limits
1 Karlobag-Karlovac-Ogulin-Virovitica. All places Serbian people live must
2 be free. You know, we must clean up with the Croatians.
3 "In the town centre other militiamen display an uncontrolled
4 rejoicing and a similar frame of mind. But the army's... "
5 MS. CLANTON:
6 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in your statement at paragraph 44, you said that
7 you thought that the militias were dangerous. Who do you think they
8 posed a threat to?
9 A. Basically anyone. These were undisciplined fighters who were
10 drinking early in the morning. We had kept our distance from such units,
11 and we had -- in going into Vukovar always gone with Yugoslav army and,
12 indeed, in the end, the -- the unit we linked up with was the most
13 professional of the Yugoslav army, the guards, and this is also the unit
14 that we actually stayed with overnight and they said we were 40,
15 50 metres, sleeping 40, 50 metres from Croat lines. Those were clearly
16 disciplines soldiers with a hierarchy of command. These people who we
17 simply ran into on that morning of the 19th weren't -- by the way, we had
18 first linked up again with the guards unit that we knew. They took us
19 around town, and we saw these people, I thought that they were dangerous.
20 They were shooting in the air, as you saw in -- and they were drinking,
21 and when people who are armed start drinking alcohol, you don't know what
22 they're going do next.
23 So I thought that they were dangerous, yes.
24 Q. And I think you've touched on this in a previous answer. But I
25 wanted to ask you, related to the same day, in paragraph 45 of your
1 statement, you said that you entered into an informal agreement with
2 Martin Bell of the BBC, that you would not cover the same places on that
3 day, that is, that you would move around separately. Can you describe
4 for the Chamber what factors caused you to reach that inform agreement
5 with Mr. Bell?
6 A. Yes, I can. I'd known Martin Bell for quite some time already.
7 On the previous day, on the 18th of November, we had been at the same
8 place filming the surrender of Croat forces and of those 4.000 civilians
9 walking out of the Mitnica area of Vukovar. When we spoke at the end, we
10 said when we go into the city tomorrow it's better if we're not at the
11 same place. There weren't very many foreign journalists going into
12 Vukovar and it made sense to us that if we were at different places and
13 civilians came out of there, where they had been hiding, that our
14 presence could stop them from being shot and so we were not in the same
15 areas. I'm aware of at least one instance because Martin and his crew
16 were in a certain place, they were able to intervene and stop a civilian
17 from being shot, and similarly we, at a certain moment, encountered one
18 man in the centre of Vukovar, again wearing civilian clothes, being
19 grabbed by the militiamen of -- who said that they were with Mr. Seselj
20 and we were able to tell Yugoslav army soldiers that they should
21 intervene and they did, and they took that man away. And as I also said
22 we saw dead bodies on the street. So it was -- some people were
23 definitely killed that day after the town had fallen.
24 Q. And now, Mr. van Lynden, moving to the 20th of November, 1991, in
25 paragraph 49 of your statement, you've described seeing Mr. Sljivancanin
1 and the representative of the ICRC having an argument outside of
2 Vukovar Hospital. You've also stated that the representative of the ICRC
3 took the unusual step of speaking to you on camera about the JNA having
4 breached agreement.
5 MS. CLANTON: And I would like to ask Mr. Laugel to please pull
6 up 65 ter 04799.1. This is admitted exhibit P1653.1645.
7 Now this is not a Sky News report but it's an associated exhibit
8 at tab 21. And I would like to play this clip which comes from the video
9 with ERN V000-1131 from 2 hours, 26 minutes and 56 seconds to 2 hours,
10 27 minute and 4 seconds.
11 In this clip, the speakers are speaking Serbian and they're
12 speaking over the English, but it is still possible to hear the English
13 in the background if you listen very carefully and have good hearing.
14 For this reason, I would like to ask that the English booth not read the
15 transcript so that the witness can listen to the original recording,
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, in that very short clip were you able to
20 recognise the voice that's asking a question in English?
21 A. I think that was my voice.
22 Q. And, in addition, in your statement, you've indicated that you
23 were present when Mr. Sljivancanin gave a speech to the cameras about his
24 disagreement with the ICRC representative. How would you describe the
25 relations between the two men at this point?
1 A. They were very angry with each other. Mr. Sljivancanin said that
2 the ICRC representative wouldn't -- couldn't understand that this was a
3 situation of war and on the ICRC part, Mr. -- I think he was called
4 Borsinger said that there had been an agreement reached with various
5 parties but that the behaviour of the Yugoslav army in Vukovar itself
6 made it impossible for him to do his work for the ICRC to do their work.
7 Q. Thank you. And when you did observe the eventually evacuation of
8 the persons from the Vukovar Hospital onto buses, can you describe the
9 demographic composition of that group?
10 A. Well, they were wounded, and then it was mostly women and
11 children, some elderly. But what I think you're asking about, were there
12 a lot of young men, no there were not.
13 Q. And the people that you saw, the women, the children, some
14 elderly, as you indicated, what was your impression of their well-being
15 at that time?
16 A. Well, this comes at the end of a siege of their town of three
17 months. These people were still extremely frightened and they were
18 traumatised. Many had lived in almost inhumane conditions in the
19 basement of the hospital. We had visited the basement of the hospital on
20 the previous day. The sanitary situation there was appalling. They were
21 probably being ill-fed during all this time, although they hadn't
22 actually starved. And they knew that they were leaving their town, and,
23 at that moment, they thought that they were leaving their town, which was
24 the town of their birth, forever.
25 Q. I'd like to ask you a question about the buildings and the
1 condition of the town of Vukovar itself.
2 When you entered Vukovar previously - that is, on the 12th and
3 13th of November, 1991 - you reported that the city was decimated and
4 this is in paragraph 36 of your statement.
5 MS. CLANTON: I'd like to ask for Mr. Laugel to please play the
6 video-clip 65 ter 04775.3. This is part of the video V000-0625, and this
7 is raw footage not taken by Sky News and not an associated exhibit. It's
8 available at tab 39.
9 And, Your Honours, we're playing this solely for the images. So
10 if we could please have no sound. And to start the clip at 1 minute
11 and 14 seconds and play until 2 minutes and 40 seconds, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. CLANTON:
14 Q. Mr. van Lynden, do you recognise the streets and the buildings
15 shown in this footage?
16 A. I couldn't name you the name of the streets, but, yes, this is
17 the centre of Vukovar that I saw trees pruned by shell fire. You don't
18 do that with rifles. That is -- you can only have trees knocked down
19 like that if there has been heavy shell fire. It's reminiscent of scenes
20 from the First World War that we've seen in photographs and paintings.
21 Houses -- practically everything was destroyed. I've lived in Beirut for
22 five years, a city that had 15 years of war, and right on the front line
23 the destruction could be bad, but to see a whole town destroyed, this is
24 the first time in my life that I witnessed. But then this did take a
25 inordinate amount of time to take Vukovar, nearly three months. And as I
1 said earlier, day on day, there was heavy shell fire and that's what it
2 causes. And on the 19th of November, we again made contact with the
3 guards units and I went with two of the officers of the guard unit up to
4 the water tower which is -- the sort of the high ground within Vukovar
5 itself, and we went up the water tower, and I recall them saying to me,
6 not me saying to them, but them saying to me, Look we have taken rubble
7 and only rubble.
8 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution wishes
9 to tender 65 ter 04775.3.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2336, Your Honours.
12 MS. CLANTON:
13 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, I want to ask you about a meeting that you
14 had in Belgrade with Arkan and Goran Hadzic.
15 In paragraphs 61 to 63 of your statement, you've described having
16 a meeting in a patisserie with Arkan and Goran Hadzic. If you can
17 recall, approximately how long did this meeting last?
18 A. Difficult for me to say precisely, but about 45 minutes,
19 something like that.
20 Q. And in your statement, you said that Arkan said that all Serbs
21 should be in one state. Had you heard that sentiment expressed by others
22 in Belgrade?
23 A. Yes, we had.
24 Q. Did you hear that sentiment expressed by anyone that you
25 interviewed in Belgrade?
1 A. We had gone to a press conference given by Mr. Seselj in which he
2 expressed that. We had met with various people who we didn't always
3 interview on film but spoke to, and who expressed similar sentiments.
4 And we had interviewed Slobodan Milosevic, at the time president of
5 Serbia, in which he also said that if other republics of the former
6 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were going to become independent, then it
7 was only right that Serbs living in those republics had the right to join
8 Serbia itself and that all Serbs should therefore live in one state.
9 Q. Now in paragraph 62 of your statement you said that after you
10 heard the offer that was being made to you by Arkan and Goran Hadzic, you
11 explained your background to them. What exactly did you share with them
12 about your background?
13 A. Maybe I should explain to Their Honours the offer that was made
14 to me.
15 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we do have limited time. It's in paragraph 62 of
16 your statement.
17 A. Okay. All right.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Well, Mr. President I want to object. Because,
19 actually, when I look at the statement it doesn't expressly say that the
20 offer was made by both of them. It was made by Arkan. The rest is
22 MS. CLANTON: May I rephrase my question, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
24 MS. CLANTON:
25 Q. Mr. van Lynden, when you heard the offer that was made, when you
1 were having this meeting with Arkan and Goran Hadzic, you then explained
2 your background to them. Can you explain why you did this and what you
3 shared about your background.
4 A. I did that because I was aware before the meeting who Arkan was,
5 that he was a -- leading his own militia and [indiscernible] told me that
6 it is most sensible in those situations to be completely open to them
7 about my own background so that there could be no misunderstandings
8 later. My father was a diplomat. I was married to a diplomat at that
9 time. I had served in the Dutch marine corps. I was in an environment
10 where the people felt that all foreigners were untrustworthy but that it
11 was likely that every foreign journalist was a spy, and, therefore, I
12 thought it simply sensible to explain precisely what my personal
13 background was, which wars I had covered, that I had a military
14 experience, so that it wouldn't be a situation afterwards of Arkan
15 saying, Well, you didn't tell me that you -- we found out now A, B, or C,
16 but I had been completely honest with them beforehand.
17 That's why I explained that.
18 Q. And a moment ago you said that you didn't want to have a
19 situation where after the fact Arkan said, Well, you didn't tell me A, B,
20 or C. What were you concerned would happen if that did take place?
21 A. Anything could happen. I could be threatened. I could even be
22 shot or that could happen to my crew. And as a correspondent, one is
23 responsible for one's crew.
24 Q. I want to ask you about what happened in eastern Croatia after
25 the fall of Vukovar, that is after 20th of November, 1991.
1 And in paragraph 59 of your statement you mentioned that you
2 travelled to eastern Croatia to cover the visit of Mr. Cyrus Vance to the
3 front lines. If you recall, who did he travel with?
4 A. He had Herb Okun, his Chief of Staff, with him, and he came there
5 with -- as I recall with -- with officers from the JNA, from the Yugoslav
7 MS. CLANTON: If I can ask for Mr. Laugel's assistance, please,
8 to play video 65 ter 05033.5, and this has ERN V000-4593. The clip runs
9 from 17 minutes and 12 seconds to 20 minutes and 21 seconds. And this is
10 a Sky News report, an associated exhibit, and appears at tab 43. I would
11 like to begin this clip at 19 minutes and 10 seconds and play to
12 19 minutes and 27 seconds, please.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "As dusk was falling, Mr. Vance crossed lines again, clearly
15 appalled at what he had seen.
16 "I talked to at least several of the people who had been hit by
17 shell fragments or by some kinds of ammunition ..."
18 MS. CLANTON:
19 Q. Mr. van Lynden, can you identify the person speaking to the
21 A. This is Cyrus Vance, the former American Secretary of State,
22 speaking and on -- just behind him on the left of the screen is Herb
23 Okun, who served as his Chief of Staff during his mission in Yugoslavia.
24 MS. CLANTON: If I could ask Mr. Laugel to continue playing now
25 to 19 minutes and 53 seconds.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "... last four days, which is inconsistent with what I proposed
3 this morning.
4 "From what you've seen, is this really a cease-fire.
5 "Not really, no. And that's what is so disturbing to me, because
6 we simply have to get a cease-fire before one can really seriously talk
7 about deploying a peacekeeping operation in Yugoslavia."
8 MS. CLANTON:
9 Q. Mr. van Lynden, we've just heard Mr. Vance describe that certain
10 places in Osijek had been shelled in recent days. Were you present when
11 he said this?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And during this time-period, including while you were covering
14 this visit of Mr. Vance to the front lines, what did you observe about
15 the adherence by the Serbs to the cease-fire agreement in particular in
16 respect to Osijek where Mr. Vance had just come back from?
17 A. Well, we had one particular day where we had been given
18 permission to go to the front lines outside of Osijek and were then
19 stopped at a certain moment by a Yugoslav officer and he wouldn't let us
20 film. I was there, and Martin Bell was there with his crew. And so we
21 didn't film, but we heard the shelling of Osijek.
22 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I see the time.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Indeed, Ms. Clanton. Thank you.
24 Mr. van Lynden, this is the time for our first break. We will
25 take 30 minutes and come back at 11.00. The Court Usher will escort you
1 out of the courtroom. Thank you very much.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
6 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton, please proceed.
9 MS. CLANTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: You have ten minutes left.
11 MS. CLANTON: Yes. Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in paragraph 53 of your statement, you describe
13 how after you were in Vukovar on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of November,
14 you a couple of days later put together a video compilation of what you
15 had seen over the course of your time in Vukovar; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now with the Chamber's leave I would like to show one more
18 video-clip. This video-clip is approximately 16 minutes long, and it
19 contains 1 minute and 10 seconds of footage that we've already seen this
20 morning. But it is part of Mr. van Lynden's compilation about these
21 events. So I would like to show it at this time. It is 65 ter 05033.3.
22 This is part of the individual that bears ERN V000-4593 and this is at
23 tab 39. It runs from 12 seconds to 6 minutes and 38 seconds. The one
24 thing I would like to point out is that the sound quality is not very
25 good for approximately the first 20 seconds, but it does come back.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "The last of 100,000 shells, a 100.000 mortar bomb, millions of
3 bullets. For the Croats on Monday, the three-month old battle of Vukovar
4 is lost but not quite over. Die-hard Croat guards holding out, even as
5 hundreds of their comrades and thousands of civilians surrender to the
6 federal army. A long weary column shuffling out of their own town
7 forever. Many are in tears, many in shock or simply in despair
8 "A scene of defeat which silences the victors looking on,
9 perhaps because of the quite nobility with which the Croat fighters lay
10 down their arms.
11 Only for a few is the humiliation too great to bear, but most
12 eyes retain the fine pride of having held out for so long. The following
13 day, the battle over, more inhabitants emerge out of the ruins of
14 Vukovar's town centre. They've survived and leave, dragging their only
15 possessions after them, a slow march to a new existence, the bleak one of
16 refugee. Like almost every other structure, the town's main hospital has
17 been maimed probably beyond repair and yet it hadn't closed, the combines
18 of its basement offering sanctuary to over 500 wounded. Here they'd
19 coped with no electricity, no water, few medicine. Here there had been
20 no privacy but over 30 births and here they try to save even the smallest
21 of lives.
22 "She is six months old and she is very badly wounded here in her
23 leg and she has one little part of shrapnel of the bomb in her stomach
24 and she needs really ...
25 "A better hospital.
1 "Better -- an operation, operation to safe her life. We are
2 doing our best, but I think without transport her in some bigger centre
3 in better condition. It is -- so she will die, I think.
4 "Around the hospital there is an all encompassing stench of
5 death. And the soldiers soon discover why.
6 "An open morgue of those who the hospital staff did not have time
7 to bury.
8 "And with its fall, Vukovar reveals the dark secrets of its war:
9 Its roads, the dead who never reached the hospital or who - the blood
10 still fresh - were clearly murdered. If the ruins of Vukovar symbolise
11 anything at all, it must be the hatred that still exists between the
12 Serbs and the Croats that lain dormant during 45 years of peace, but has
13 now expressed itself in the mutual commitment to war, a commitment which
14 does not appear to have been satisfied even after the three months of
15 fighting here. And amongst the horror there is the surreal incongruity
16 of celebration. Extremist Serb militiamen and women posing triumphantly
17 for an end-of-battle photograph, before returning to a morning feast of
18 music and laughter fueled by alcohol.
19 "The motto on their flag is freedom or death and they vow they
20 will fight on.
21 "No, it's not finished.
22 "What for you do the Serbs need to take before the war is over?
23 "War will be over when we have our limits
24 Karlobag-Karlovac-Ogulin-Virovitica. All place where Serbian people live
25 must be free. You know, we must clean up with the Croatians.
1 "In the town centre, other militiamen display an uncontrolled
2 rejoicing in a similar frame of mind.
3 "But the army's engineers are certainly not celebrating, instead
4 clearing unexploded ordnance or searching for the anti-personnel mines
5 and booby-traps the defenders left behind. To find them is a delicate
6 task, to clear them, less so.
7 "And it takes another day before the wounded of Vukovar can be
8 evacuated, a painful, chaotic exercise. It takes hours before the
9 ambulances have been loaded up. The walking wounded reached the
10 overcrowded buses. And dusk is approaching when the convoy finally
11 departs, taking its occupants on a last site seeing tour of destruction
12 before leaving behind the once beautiful town on the river Danube
13 rendered silent by the victors and the vanquished, lost to its
14 inhabitants and obliterated memorial to hate."
15 MS. CLANTON:
16 Q. Mr. van Lynden, in the video-clip that we just saw, I'd like to
17 ask you where the footage was taken in this last shot that should still
18 be on your screen?
19 A. From the top of the water tower.
20 Q. And is this the same event that you described today earlier?
21 It's on transcript page 32, beginning on line 9 that you went with
22 members of the guards unit to the top of the water tower and they
23 commented on the destruction below them?
24 A. Yes. We went up the water tower with two of the officers.
25 MS. CLANTON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Clanton.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
6 Q. Good morning, Mr. van Lynden.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Mr. Hadzic here and
9 I'm just going to ask you a few questions today. Am I correct in
10 understanding that you first travelled to Eastern Slavonia in late August
11 or early September 1991?
12 A. Yup, you are correct.
13 Q. And you have described today as well as in your statement the
14 distinction that you drew between the northern route and the southern
15 route. Am I right that you visited the north route or the northern area
16 twice or a maximum of three times?
17 A. As far as I can recall, three times.
18 Q. Can you recall the dates?
19 A. Not precisely, no. But they would have been in September and --
20 and October. But thereafter, we only went on the southern route.
21 Q. So when you say "thereafter," do I understand correctly that the
22 two to three visits to the northern area that occurred at the beginning
23 of your visits to Eastern Slavonia, and then all subsequent visits were
24 along the southern route?
25 A. No, we did both. For instance, the -- it has been shown in Court
1 the -- my visit to Tovarnik and Ilaca, that would have been in September,
2 but -- and visits to for instance, Brsadin was after that, as far as I
3 recall. So it was a mix.
4 Q. Now you say at paragraph 24 of your statement that you had to
5 obtain -- and can you turn that up in front of you, sir, if you like.
6 You had to obtain permission on a daily basis from the federal
7 Ministry of Defence to enter Eastern Slavonia. Can you explain for us
8 the mechanics of how that occurred?
9 A. Yes. When I arrived -- not immediately when I arrived Belgrade
10 because we did go to -- to Banija and to Knin, but thereafter in August I
11 applied for and received permanent accreditation as a correspondent in
12 Belgrade. And we visited the Ministry of Defence and spoke to their
13 spokesman, whoever was in charge of the press department, and he told us
14 that we would -- if we wanted to go to the front line we would need to
15 get a daily permission from him. Thereafter it wasn't necessary for me
16 to turn up in person. But my field producer, Zoran Kusovac, would go,
17 who had been with me at that original meeting -- would go and get the
18 piece of paper.
19 Q. Do I understand your last answer to mean that you didn't need
20 this piece of paper from the federal Ministry of Defence when you were
21 going to Banija and Knin but you did need it when you were entering
22 Eastern Slavonia?
23 A. When we -- sorry. When we had originally gone to Bihac, it was,
24 where we based ourselves, we were working -- I was working then with
25 Zoran Kusovac as my field producer but with a crew from Belgrade
1 television and what we needed then was a pass to -- to get into the town
2 of Dvor Na Uni, and with the catch-22 being that you had to be in the
3 town before -- to get the pass and, of course, you couldn't get the pass
4 if you hadn't entered the town yet, but there was also a procedure,
5 although, at that time, as I recall, it was Territorial Defence forces
6 who were imposing that system rather than the Yugoslav army.
7 Q. And coming back to Eastern Slavonia, once you have this piece of
8 paper that you have obtained from the federal Ministry of Defence how
9 would that be inspected when you arrived at a check-point?
10 A. We would show it, and we would show -- I would show my press
11 accreditation. And on the southern route, as I've explained earlier, we
12 would pass through Sid first, pass office that had been set up there, and
13 it depended on -- on the people manning the check-point whether we were
14 or were not allowed to continue.
15 Q. And there was a JNA check-point on that bridge at Erdut; is that
17 A. As I remember it, yes.
18 Q. Did they, likewise, examine the passes that you obtained from the
19 federal Ministry of Defence in Belgrade?
20 A. As far as I remember, yes.
21 Q. Were you asked to show this pass every time that you passed
22 through either the check-point at the Erdut bridge or the check-point
23 north of Sid?
24 A. Again, as far as I remember, yes. And -- but there were more
25 check-points north of Sid. I mean, you could -- there was one before
1 Tovarnik but there could be others along the road, and you could be
2 stopped and sent back at any of them.
3 Q. Were those all JNA check-points, as you headed north from Sid
4 into Eastern Slavonia?
5 A. As far as I remember, yes.
6 Q. And in the northern route, did you ever come across check-points
7 in the interior after you had crossed the bridge in Erdut?
8 A. Not that I can recall at this time, no.
9 Q. When you entered the territory, whether in the south or the
10 north, did you to have a JNA escort with you, or were you permitted to
11 drive on your own?
12 A. No, we didn't have to have to a JNA escort. There were moments,
13 and two of them have been shown in court this morning, both when we were
14 taken to Ilaca and when we were taken to the JNA garrison in the southern
15 part of Vukovar that we were told that the only safe way would be to go
16 in an armoured car and General Arandjelovic then arranged that. But, on
17 the whole, we just went on our own.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 04677, please, which is Defence
19 tab 15.
20 Q. Sir, you testified in the Mrksic case before the Tribunal, and
21 I'd like to show you a passage from your testimony, and this is page 3152
22 of the transcript, please.
23 And I'm interested in that passage from line 11 onwards, where
24 you say -- and you're referring here to the Guards Brigade?
25 A. Mm-hm.
1 Q. You say:
2 "I did not get an impression that their conduct was anything
3 other than as professional soldiers. What for me I observed is that they
4 were quite different to the other units of the JNA that I had encountered
5 and the various militias, specifically, Mr. Seselj's people, that had
6 also been allowed into the front lines of Vukovar by the JNA."
7 And what I'm interested in, sir, is that last bit. Can you
8 explain to us why you say that Mr. Seselj's people had been allowed onto
9 the front lines by the JNA?
10 A. It was my impression then that if the JNA had decided that they
11 were completely going to fight this battle on their own without the help
12 of any militia, that they could have been in a position to do so. And,
13 therefore, that the presence of paramilitary groups meant that the JNA
14 had given them permission to be there.
15 Q. And why do you say that the JNA was in a position to do so?
16 A. It was a full army and had at its disposal all the weaponry of an
17 army. As far as I'm aware, was one of the biggest, bigger armies, and
18 therefore, at least in my impression, it was that they could have, if
19 they so wished, they should -- could have stopped paramilitary units from
20 being in those areas, but that they had given them permission. Whether
21 that was on the part of the army or a political decision, that, of
22 course, I'm not aware of.
23 Q. And was it also because it was your impression that the JNA
24 controlled the two exclusive access points to Eastern Slavonia where you
25 found Seselj's men, amongst other militia?
1 A. Indeed. As you say, yes, they -- they manned the check-points.
2 Q. When you passed through the check-points, did you ever see
3 militia passing through the check-points?
4 A. That's a hard question to ask 22 years on. I'm -- I -- I may
5 have done, but it certainly didn't make an impression on me that I have a
6 clear memory of that happening, no [Realtime transcript read in
7 error "yeah"].
8 Q. That's entirely fair, Mr. van Lynden, I do understand that.
9 And the observation that you made about Seselj's men, namely,
10 that they'd been allowed onto the front lines by the JNA, would you make
11 the same observation about Arkan's militia?
12 A. Can I just go to -- there is a mistake. It says a "yeah" when I
13 said a "no" earlier just before your last question.
14 Q. Thank you. That will be corrected. Thank you.
15 A. Okay. I visited Arkan's militia in or around Erdut when there
16 was a base, and they were there, so they must have been allowed across
17 the bridge by the JNA. But, here, I am making an assumption, because I
18 did not actually see them crossing the bridge.
19 Q. Do you recall how many check-points you had to go through between
20 the Croatian border north of Sid before you arrived in Negoslavci?
21 A. Precise number, no. What I do remember is that the situation
22 changed. I mean, what could happen on one day, the next day might not be
23 the same, that there wouldn't be a check-point. But there were certainly
24 a couple for us to get through, and certainly, as I recall, in Oriolik
25 which is basically the village where one turned right to drive on to
1 Negoslavci and to Vukovar.
2 Q. Can we go back just four pages on the document on the screen now
3 to page 3148.
4 If we can just start down at the bottom of this page. And,
5 again, Mr. van Lynden, this is your testimony --
6 A. Mm-hm.
7 Q. -- from Mrksic, and starting at line 22 you were asked this
9 "About your travels from Belgrade to Vukovar and the other way
10 around, you said today that you needed to obtain a permit in Belgrade but
11 that despite this sometimes you were not allowed into the Vukovar area.
12 Can you perhaps remember who was it specifically that denied you access
13 on particular occasions and did you ever have an opportunity to bring
14 this up with superior levels of the army, if the army was the body in
15 question? "
16 And your answer was:
17 "It was at army check-points that we were stopped, and without
18 them giving us precise reasons told that we could not go further."
19 And then if we go down that paragraph you say:
20 "On another occasion, the general had told me that the convoy
21 would take place and that we were stopped in Negoslavci and that a lower
22 officer of the JNA told us that the convoy would not take place and that
23 we would [sic] -- could not go any further ... that day.
24 "If we were stopped on other days, it was generally at
25 check-points and generally not by officers but by possibly a sergeant in
1 the army and we were simply told that we could not go any further despite
2 the fact that we had been given a permission ..."
3 Now, what I'm interested in here, am I correct in understanding
4 that -- well, let me put it a different way. Do you recall whether you
5 were ever stopped at a non-JNA check-point and denied permission to
7 A. Not that I recollect.
8 Q. Were JNA forces very concerned about infiltration by Croat
10 A. I'm not sure that I'm the right person to ask that question. You
11 should ask someone from the JNA.
12 The only comment that I can make about that is that we were
13 surprised throughout our time in going to Vukovar that we would take
14 this -- the same road -- if we were talking the southern route,
15 Your Honours, it was Tovarnik, Ilaca, Oriolik, and Negoslavci and to
16 Vukovar, that between Tovarnik and Oriolik, the flanks of the road were
17 fields of corn, and what would happen, and it happened to us as well, and
18 we were told also by JNA soldiers that it was happening to them on a
19 routine basis is that Croat snipers would go into those corn fields with
20 some steps, go up the steps, and take one shot at a passing car and go
21 down again and -- and -- and go away. And one of the things for me which
22 was strange was that flank of that road which was of clear importance to
23 the Serb forces that those flanks were not cleansed and held so that such
24 attacks couldn't take place.
25 But that is the only answer I can give to this question. As to
1 how concerned the JNA was or was not you would have to ask them.
2 Q. When you say they would go up some steps, do you mean that they
3 had some kind of a ladder or stepladder from which they would snipe
4 towards the road?
5 A. That is what we were told. Obviously I never saw them, nor were
6 we ever shown any steps that had been captured. But that's what we were
8 Q. Were you shot at on a number of occasions by such snipers?
9 A. Yes, there were a number of occasions that we heard shots fired.
10 Our cars were never hit. We always travelled in two Volkswagen Golfs,
11 unarmoured, and it seemed to us that we were being shot at, so we heard
12 the bullets relatively close. But none of the cars were ever hit.
13 Q. Can you remember, and I know it's been a very, very long time,
14 Mr. van Lynden, but can you remember the direction from which the fire
15 was coming? Was it coming only from the direction of Vukovar, or was
16 there infiltration coming from the other direction, namely, from the
18 A. The incidents that I'm referring to are talking place south of
19 Vukovar, and, therefore -- I haven't got the map in front of me, but,
20 yes -- [Overlapping speakers] ... west.
21 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... let's bring up a map. It might help
23 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have D38, please.
24 MS. CLANTON: Excuse me, Your Honours, could we clarify. The
25 last question was: Was there infiltration coming from the other
1 direction. And the first part of the question was if you remembered --
2 if you could recall which direction the fire was coming from. Could we
3 clarify for the witness if infiltration and fire are the same thing in
4 counsel's question, please.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Let's start with the fire.
6 MS. CLANTON: Thank you.
7 MR. GOSNELL: For the record, this is Defence tab 25.
8 Q. First of all, I should ask you, Mr. van Lynden, looking at this
9 map, does this accord with your -- and I suggest that if you look at that
10 map it shows that as a certain date the northern area is not accessible
11 from the southern area, and vice versa. Does that accord with your
12 recollection, certainly in September 1991, that you couldn't pass from
13 the northern area to the southern area and vice versa?
14 A. No, you couldn't.
15 Q. And I realise that this is not a perfect map, but we can see
16 there generally the direction between Sid and Vukovar. And the question
17 that I was -- was wondering about is, as you're travelling north,
18 north-west, along the road from Sid towards Vukovar, do you remember
19 whether the sniping, either that you experienced or you heard about, was
20 it coming from the west of that road?
21 A. Would you like me to mark it?
22 Q. No need to mark it --
23 A. South-west is what I would say.
24 Q. The fire was coming from the south-west?
25 A. That is as what I recall, yes.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please have 05030 --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would like to have a clarification here.
3 Would that mean, Mr. van Lynden, that travelling in the -- you
4 said you were travelling from -- to Vukovar; right?
5 THE WITNESS: Towards Vukovar.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Towards Vukovar. And the sniping came from the
7 corn fields besides next to the road.
8 THE WITNESS: Very close to the road.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Close to the road. Now you say they come from
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, that's --
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is left in the direction you were driving.
13 THE WITNESS: Left when we were going to Vukovar, on our right
14 when we were coming back.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Coming back.
16 THE WITNESS: And you could also get shot on the way back.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course. Yes, of course. But now we know
18 which side of the road it is.
19 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. And, Mr. van Lynden, if I can just follow up on that, as a
21 military man, would you have expected -- you said that you were surprised
22 that the corn fields were not razed. Would you have considered to be a
23 legitimate and normal military practice to in fact to burn down, raze
24 those corn fields to make the area safer for the military?
25 A. I'm not sure I would have expected them to burn them down. I
1 would have expected them to either to see to it that there is harvesting
2 or simply that there are units further out on the flanks to see to it
3 that this road which it seemed to me was fairly vital for the JNA did not
4 come under sporadic sniper attack. It was never meaningful attack but
5 there were these sniper attacks, and that makes everybody feel
6 uncomfortable. Certainly made us feel uncomfortable.
7 Q. The reason why I asked you about burning down is because the word
8 that you use at paragraph 26 of your statement and I'll put it in
10 "I was surprised to learn that the JNA which was a professional
11 army had not protected its flanks by razing the corn fields."
12 A. What I meant was a clearing. If I can give a direct example from
13 my past. When the Israeli army invaded Lebanon in 1982, quite soon
14 they -- usually with bulldozers, they didn't burn it, they -- bulldozers.
15 Saw to it that -- specifically in southern Lebanon on the sides of the
16 roads there was often banana groves, things of that sort, but they were
17 cleared so that there was less chance of their forces of being attacked
18 on the road. And I would have expected the JNA to undertake something of
19 a similar nature.
20 Q. You say would you expect that. Is that based on your training as
21 a professional military officer?
22 A. No. That is based on my experience in wars. I spent a lot of
23 time in Lebanon. I was in Iraq an Iran. I was with the American forces
24 during the Gulf War. This is what I've seen professional military forces
25 do, and I was surprised that it did not happen in Eastern Slavonia.
1 Q. And when you used the word "professional," you mean armed forces
2 acting appropriately both from a strategic perspective and from a laws of
3 war perspective; right?
4 A. I'm not sure it's called -- it would be called "strategic
5 perspective." It's simply from the perspective of keeping one's own
6 forces as safe as possible.
7 As far as the laws of war are concerned I'm not an expert on
8 whether the razing of corn fields constitutes a crime of war. I would
9 doubt it.
10 Q. Let me put it this way: As a military officer it is what you
11 would have done, if you were in that situation. You would have razed the
12 corn fields; correct?
13 A. I have never been put in that situation. When I served in the
14 marine corps we were not at war, and I imagine I would have got orders,
15 received orders and we were -- I was -- simply served in the infantry,
16 not the kind of unit that would have undertaken such an action. That
17 would have been done by engineers, I imagine. But I have never been
18 personally put in a position like that when I was in the marine corps.
19 MR. GOSNELL: I like to play a video now which is 05030. It's
20 Defence tab 28. And we're starting at 16:45.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "Realise as does their general the kind of war they'll be engaged
24 "It's a dirty war in which most of the action is done by snipers
25 and ambushes along the road, surprise attacks during the night.
1 "And the men ..."
2 MR. GOSNELL:
3 Q. Now you've told us that is General Arandjelovic?
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. Is that right that what he conveyed to you was that there were
6 attacks -- the primary nature of the attacks against his forces were by
7 snipers and ambushes at night?
8 A. That is indeed what he -- he told us during this interview.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Could we move forward to 17:06, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 "To get to one of the general's front lines an armoured personnel
12 carrier is put at our disposal, the men on guard against the ambushes
13 they say are a standard part of every late afternoon. We drive to
14 Ilaca ... "
15 MR. GOSNELL:
16 Q. Were you told that these ambushes were so regular that they were
17 a standard part of every late afternoon?
18 A. That's what I just said, so, yes, I must have been.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "... are there, houses are still burning and the army's control
21 tentative. The village of Nijemci and the electrical pylons delineate
22 the front line just one mile away. But the army here complains of
23 constant infiltration by the Croats. For the officers it is frustrating.
24 As one put it, there's no truce ..."
25 MR. GOSNELL:
1 Q. Just stop there for one moment. The individual behind you in the
2 fatigues, can you say what force he is a part of?
3 A. He's a member of the JNA. Whether he's full-time or reservist,
4 that I can't tell. Probably a reservist. But ...
5 [Video-clip played]
6 "No war that we have our hands tide by a cease-fire agreement.
7 On these front lines they haven't had time to dig in yet and its
8 anti-aircraft guns which form the primary defence against the snipers
9 that the night is bound to bring.
10 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News."
11 MR. GOSNELL:
12 Q. Now, somewhere in that report you said that the army's control is
13 tentative. And why did you say that?
14 A. This is about Ilaca which they had only just taken where the
15 houses were still burning and where their control was therefore
16 tentative. They -- this was clear from the demeanour of the men, weary
17 of some kind of a counter-attack. That never happened, as far as I'm
18 aware, but they were very uncertain still.
19 Q. And did they tell you that Croat forces were moving through this
20 area attempting to resupply Vukovar? In particular, using the cover of
21 the corn fields.
22 A. No. That's not something that I remember being told. I remember
23 being told that there were instances of sniping and of ambushes but I
24 don't remember being told that this was a primary route to resupplying
25 the Croat forces in Vukovar itself.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 05033, please.
2 MS. CLANTON: And excuse me, if it would assist, the previous
3 clip was 65 ter was 05030.5.
4 MR. GOSNELL: I thank you my friend for that. And just for the
5 record my understanding, and I believe my friend has confirmed this, that
6 the entire video has been admitted.
7 MS. CLANTON: Each sub65 ter which is each clip, so from start to
8 finish of his report has been admitted for all of the ones that are
9 associated exhibits. It is possible that on the longer video which is
10 the V000-plus the four digits there is additional clips that do not
11 relate to his coverage in eastern Croatia and thus were not part of the
12 92 ter statement. But everything that was in the statement has now been
13 tendered in full.
14 MR. GOSNELL: My wish would be to tender the entire video.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
16 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I would need to check. But for each
17 video I'm not certain at this time if everything on that video relates to
18 this part of the conflict. This witness has a considerable amount of
19 video related to Western Slavonia and also to Bosnia and sometimes it's
20 mixed in. Perhaps during the break if I would be allowed to check to see
21 if there's any parts of the video, the whole video that -- don't relate,
22 that might save Your Honours from having evidence that doesn't cover this
23 part of the conflict.
24 MR. GOSNELL: I have reviewed the video and I recall no coverage
25 of Bosnia.
1 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I would just want to look. Having
2 reviewed many of these videos. Some of them have different parts of the
3 conflict and the reason we created the sub65 ters was to have each report
4 as a distinction exhibit for Your Honours.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You'll come back to us right after the break.
6 MS. CLANTON: Yes, can I do that, Your Honours.
7 MR. GOSNELL: Can we have 05033, at 6 minutes 40 seconds. This
8 is Defence tab 49.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 "The guns of Western Slavonia are silent. Deployed in fields
11 that have turned into swamps, most stand deserted, only one crew
12 venturing through the mud ..."
13 MR. GOSNELL:
14 Q. Sir, do you recall going to Western Slavonia yourself?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Do you remember when that was?
17 A. In the Autumn of 1991.
18 Q. Would this have been included in your two to three visits that
19 you say occurred to the north area? In other words did you travel
20 through the northern area to get there, or did you go by some other
22 A. No, we went via Bosnia.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. GOSNELL: Can we continue.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "... check the sites. For the soldiers, the unexpected truce
2 offers an unexpected respite. The war of Western Slavonia has either
3 been fought at close range, snipers infiltrating each other's line, or at
4 long range with heavy artillery. And this is the first day in months
5 that the gun crews have not been given the order to fire. The villages
6 in the Western Slavonia offer by now the depressingly familiar site of
7 homes and restaurants holed by shell fire, raked by bullets or simply
8 burned out. But even after the army captured them the Croat forces
9 attack on an almost daily basis infiltrating through the region's ample
11 MR. GOSNELL:
12 Q. Does that remind that you that at least in Western Slavonia there
13 was a considerable amount of infiltration by Croat forces across Serbian
15 A. It's a war and a war is being fought and this is what we were
16 being told by the JNA in that area.
17 MR. GOSNELL: We would tender this video, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is it the entire video you're tendering,
21 Mr. Gosnell?
22 MR. GOSNELL: That's my intention, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
24 MS. CLANTON: Your Honours, I would again ask for a moment,
25 please, during the break to confirm what else is on this video. As just
1 discussed we broken it apart and we tendered it that way. But I can
2 check the entire video if you'd like.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: So that makes two.
4 MR. GOSNELL: Can we go back, please, to 05030, again Defence
5 tab 28. We're going to time mark 11:49.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We have not been provided
7 with the transcript of the video which makes interpretation really
9 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you. I --
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. GOSNELL: Sorry about that. I indeed do not have the B/C/S
13 [Video-clip played]
14 "... that Yugoslavia cease-fires's is not holding. From the
15 front line, first aid posts, the wounded continued to emerge. The
16 current truce may have halted the offensives but it doesn't stop the
17 shooting, although these federal soldiers were wounded by their own fire
18 rather than by that of their foes. It happened on the army's front line
19 around the eastern Croatian town of Osijek and the brigade commander goes
20 out to investigate, although the only explanation he ..."
21 MR. GOSNELL:
22 Q. Do you recognise this person?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Who is that?
25 A. A brigade commander. I can't remember his name. We encountered
1 him on one day as we've just heard outside on the front outside Osijek.
2 Q. And, again, I know it's been an extremely long time. Do you have
3 any recollection of whether there was a village nearby?
4 A. Yes. Because that's where those two men who had -- there had
5 been an incident with -- as I recall, a recoilless rifle and some
6 anti-tank -- anti-tank bazooka, and they had been standing behind it and
7 a flame comes out and they'd both been burnt. And they were initially
8 brought to that village. I cannot remember the name of the village
9 today. And from there, by hospital, they were -- by ambulance they were
10 taken to hospitals. I imagine within Serbia proper.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 "Lack of discipline when this recoilless rifle was fired, perhaps
13 indicative of the strange mixture to be found amongst the men who manned
14 the army's trenches. Some are professionals, some of short-term
15 volunteers ..."
16 MR. GOSNELL:
17 Q. Do you recognise the symbol on that helmet?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And what is it?
20 A. It's sort of national symbol of Serbia.
21 Q. Does it tell you anything about the affiliations of this soldier?
22 A. It would seem to indicate that he is affiliated to the
23 nationalist side.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "Others barely trained conscripts. Although the fortifications
1 include an unlikely variety of heavy weapons, 50-year-old American
2 artillery, modern Russian anti-tank rockets, the men remain continually
3 vigilant. Since the cease-fire, they say, they have come under attack on
4 56 separate occasions. For these men and their mortars in the front line
5 trenches the firing has never ceased, only diminished, but during the
6 past 48 hours the violations have significantly increased leading many of
7 the soldiers here to believe that Yugoslavia's sixth cease-fire is about
8 to break down."
9 MR. GOSNELL:
10 Q. Those men over your right shoulder, can you identify their unit
12 A. Not their precise unit, no, but they were members of the JNA.
13 Q. And over your left shoulder there is a different uniform. It is
14 more of a camouflage. Is that also a uniform would you associate with
15 the JNA?
16 A. Yes, I would. The guy was the personal - how would you call
17 it? - body-guard of the brigade commander. We've seen him earlier as --
18 when I talk about a professional. So I imagine that here on the one hand
19 you have reservists and, on the other hand, a professional within -- both
20 within the JNA forces.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 "... completely. Even amongst the men deployed away from the
23 front lines, overlooking the wine yards and the farm houses, that opinion
24 is standard. For the moment they have the time for haircuts, for
25 makeshift showers, or leisurely chats in the shade, but few doubt they
1 will soon be otherwise engaged.
2 "In my opinion, war is not over.
3 "And if it isn't, these tanks dug in 8 kilometres from Osijek
4 will be thrown into the fray. Their muzzles no longer silent.
5 "Aernout van Lynden, Sky News."
6 MR. GOSNELL:
7 Q. Now, am I right that all of that artillery, the heavy artillery
8 we see in the tanks, is that mixed in near where the infantry is?
9 A. No, not the artillery. And actually not the tanks either. These
10 tanks were quite away behind the front lines. What we saw there was some
11 pieces of -- of -- what we call self-propelled artillery on the front
12 line, but most of the tanks that I've seen and certainly most of the
13 artillery is kept kind the lines.
14 Q. And can you recall was that brigade commander inspecting the
15 trench where we saw that variety of -- that assortment of uniforms?
16 A. Yes, he was.
17 Q. Would you say he was in command of all those people, based on
18 what you were able to observe?
19 A. We were only there for a few hour, but, yes, our impression was
20 that he was in command.
21 MR. GOSNELL: I've already tendered this document and I know
22 it's -- this video I know it's under consideration by the Prosecution but
23 I'm done with that document, that video. Thank you.
24 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, I'd now like to ask you some questions about
25 the meeting that you say that you -- and I believe you'd like some water
1 if the usher to please assist. About the meeting that you say you had
2 with Arkan and Mr. Hadzic.
3 Now, can I first ask you, do you remember whether that meeting
4 happened before or after your first trip to Eastern Slavonia?
5 A. After, as far as I remember.
6 Putting a precise timeline on it is difficult for me. I've
7 obviously thought about this, also in preparation of coming here today.
8 The meeting sticks in my mind because it was completely different to
9 anything else I have experienced during my life. But the precise timing
10 on it, I don't know. But it was certainly in September 1991. But I
11 couldn't give you a date.
12 Q. And please tell us how this meeting started. How did it come
13 about that you ended up at the patisserie, starting from you being at
14 your hotel.
15 A. As I -- I think it's described in -- in my statement, my
16 producer, my field producer and I had met in Belgrade a character whom we
17 had considered shady but who said he had good connections and he spoke
18 English. And on this particular night I had gone to bed. As I recall,
19 it was around 1.30 in the morning that I was called, and reception called
20 saying there was someone downstairs in reception wishing to collect me,
21 or to speak to me, and he spoke to me, and said that I should come down
22 for what he described as an important meeting.
23 One is then faced with a strange decision. My field producer had
24 his own apartment in Belgrade, so I would have had to go on my own, and
25 it's one of those situations where, in a foreign country where fighting
1 has started, you take a decision should I or shouldn't I? I decided to
2 take a risk and to go. And I came downstairs and he was waiting, and as
3 I recall in camouflage combat gear, but before I had met this man only in
4 civilian clothes. He was carrying a Heckler & Koch submachine-gun with a
5 silencer on it, and he motioned for me to come with him. Outside the
6 hotel there was a BMW with a driver in it, also in camouflage clothes,
7 and, as I recall, the BMW had Frankfurt number plates.
8 Q. Can I just stop you there.
9 MR. GOSNELL: And could we have 04678, which is Defence tab 168.
10 If we could please have transcript page 3210.
11 Q. If we look at line 21, it says -- and this is your testimony from
12 the Mrksic case.
13 A. Mm-hm.
14 Q. "And a man who had met with my field producer earlier that week
15 and who spoke English asked me to come down because there was an
16 important meeting for him to take me to."
17 Do you remember, was it just your field producer who had met this
18 man or had you previously met this man as well?
19 A. I had previously met this man as well, on one occasion.
20 Q. You say you were already in bed. How long did it take you to get
21 down to the lobby, approximately?
22 A. A couple of minutes. I just put my clothes on. I didn't shower
23 or shave or anything of that nature.
24 Q. Two minutes to get all your clothes on and get down into the
25 lobby looking at least semi-presentable?
1 A. Shirt, trouser, I mean how long does that take.
2 Q. And then you arrive in the car. Did you say that the driver was
3 wearing camouflage uniform?
4 A. That's what I recall, yes.
5 Q. Was he armed?
6 A. As far as I'm aware, yes.
7 Q. How could you say he was armed? Did you see him with his weapon?
8 A. There was -- I mean, he was driving but there was a separate gun,
9 as I recall, by the passenger chair.
10 Q. And did you sit in the back seat?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. And did the man who had retrieved you at the hotel, did he also
13 sit in the back seat?
14 A. As I recall, he sat in the front.
15 Q. And how long did it take to you drive from the hotel to the
17 A. I don't have a precise recollection of how long it took. But we
18 were in new Belgrade. It would have taken a little while, but I don't
19 have a precise recollection as to how long.
20 Q. Do you remember that Arkan's patisserie was near the stadium, the
21 football statement?
22 A. I don't remember seeing a stadium on that drive. I never went to
23 the patisserie before or after. I had heard of its existence but that
24 was all. And it was at night.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say it took at least ten minutes to drive
1 from the hotel to the patisserie?
2 A. I would think so, yes.
3 Q. You say at paragraph 61:
4 "When we got out, I saw about 40 men similarly dressed in western
5 camouflage, carrying heavy machine-gun, rifles and anti-tank bazookas."
6 Now, first of all, can I just ask you about their attire. Were
7 they, would you say, well presented, professionally presented or were
8 they unkempt?
9 A. They seemed to me well attired, certainly not unkempt. It was
10 dark. It was something of a surprise. My basic reaction at that time
11 was that I had made an enormous error in not bringing my cameraman
12 because I thought that what I was seeing was some sort of a coup was
13 going to be stagged. That turned out not to be the case. But that was
14 my initial reaction. No, they were well attired and appeared at ease
15 with their weaponry.
16 Q. And can you just describe that scene for us, please. What were
17 they doing? Were they waiting for something? Was there a vehicle nearby
18 that they were going to get into? Were they just standing there, milling
20 A. Well, I was wondering the same thing, what were they doing there.
21 I didn't know, nor was there any time for me to ask. I was brought
22 straight from the car, passed these men who were standing in the street.
23 If there were trucks waiting to take them away, I don't recall that.
24 There may have been, I don't remember. And I was taken into the
1 Q. And then you say here at paragraph 61:
2 "After a short while, Arkan walked with Goran Hadzic."
3 How long would you say, carrying on with our chronology, was a
4 short while?
5 A. A couple of minutes. I was offered a drink. I asked for a
6 coffee and a water. I think I was given a coffee and a water prior to
7 their arrival.
8 Q. You say here at paragraph 61:
9 "I did not know Goran Hadzic at that time."
10 Does that mean that you had never heard of him as of that
11 meeting, or does it mean that you had merely never made his acquaintance
12 but you had heard of him?
13 A. I had never made the acquaintance of either of the two gentlemen.
14 I had heard of Arkan. Zeljko Raznjatovic, to give him his formal name.
15 I had not heard, I was not aware of Mr. Hadzic.
16 Q. You said earlier that this meeting occurs after your first visit
17 to Eastern Slavonia. Do I understand correctly that it was after a visit
18 to the northern route?
19 A. That I can't remember, whether it was before or after -- no, I
20 don't -- that I don't know.
21 Q. Do you recall that your earliest transcripts to Eastern Slavonia,
22 in general, were, in fact, to the northern area?
23 A. No. We did one in the north, we did one in the -- several in the
24 south. So, no. I'm certainly aware of doing -- it must have been two
25 after this meeting in the northern area. So I may have done one
2 Q. And then further on in paragraph 61 you say:
3 "Arkan said they would give me, and through me my network,
4 exclusive rights to cover the war in Eastern Slavonia."
5 Now, you've described to us the process by which you, in fact,
6 were granted access to Eastern Slavonia and, as I understand it, there
7 was no involvement of Arkan in that process, or am I wrong?
8 A. No, you're not wrong. As I also write here, I was -- or write,
10 "I was very surprised."
11 And I was very surprised. I think it was the last thing I was
12 possibly expecting. This has never happened to me anywhere, in any war
13 zone. I was flabbergasted, really, also, because to make an offer like
14 that to a western journalist, no western journalist is ever going to
15 accept that.
16 Q. At this point Arkan must have known -- or, well, I can just ask
17 you, did it appear from your interaction with him that he knew you had
18 already visited Eastern Slavonia as of that date, as of the date of that
20 A. I do not recall either of them saying anything about my coverage
21 of Eastern Slavonia. What I do recall is that they mentioned coverage I
22 had done earlier in the Banija area, the towns of Glina, Dvor Na Uni that
23 I mentioned earlier. I remember that they mentioned that. They may have
24 mentioned other reports that I did, but that I don't recall at this time.
25 Q. I suppose what I'm getting at is, did you have the impression
1 that Arkan considered you to be an astoundingly gullible person? And I
2 ask that question because he must have known that you were at least
3 somewhat well informed about how to get access to Eastern Slavonia, and
4 yet here he is attempting to use that as some kind of a bargaining chip
5 to obtain night-vision equipment.
6 A. I always had the impression, and in thinking back on this
7 incident, always thought it was more -- he wasn't just there talking to
8 me about getting night-vision equipment. I think what he -- and I
9 imagine Mr. Hadzic agreed with him because he was sitting next to him and
10 was with him when he made this offer. That they thought that I would
11 give the kind of coverage of the war that they would like. And they felt
12 that I would, to a degree, let's say, support what they were doing.
13 So I think it was more about press relations rather than about
14 getting equipment.
15 Q. Aside from Mr. Hadzic and Arkan, was anyone present during your
16 meeting with them?
17 A. There may have been a waiter there, but no one else, as far as I
18 remember. And also not the man who brought us -- who brought me there.
19 Q. Did Mr. Hadzic speak at all during the meeting?
20 A. I do not remember him speaking to me in English. They spoke to
21 each other, but in Serbo-Croat, which is a language I don't speak. I
22 don't recall Mr. Hadzic asking me a question directly. I -- what I
23 recall is that it was Arkan who did most of the talking with me, and he
24 did speak English.
25 Q. Was Mr. Hadzic present throughout what you've described earlier
1 as a 45-minute meeting? Was he present throughout?
2 A. That is my recollection, yes.
3 Q. Can we go --
4 A. They left together.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Can we turn, please, to 04678, Defence tab 16.
6 Could we please turn to 3211.
7 Q. Here's what you said, Mr. van Lynden, during your testimony in
8 Mrksic starting at line 12:
9 "I was given a cup of coffee and then Mr. Raznjatovic, together
10 with Goran Hadzic, entered the room, and we had a meeting lasting, I
11 don't know, I can't remember precisely, 30 or 40 minutes.
12 Mr. Raznjatovic was the one speaking. He spoke relatively good English.
13 As far as I recall, Mr. Hadzic speak English at all."
14 Does it appear to you there's a word missing from what you said
15 during your testimony in the Mrksic case?
16 A. It does not speak English at all.
17 Q. And then the next sentence you say:
18 "So the conversation was very much between Mr. Raznjatovic and
19 myself and that was the first meeting I had with these two gentlemen."
20 A. Mm-hm.
21 Q. Is that all true?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. None that of that appears in your statement that has been
24 tendered to the Court as your testimony.
25 A. What is missing in my statement that has been tendered to the
2 Q. There is no mention in your statement that the conversation was
3 very much between you and Mr. Raznjatovic. There's no mention that you
4 did not recall that Mr. Hadzic spoke or that he spoke in English?
5 A. Mr. Hadzic didn't speak in English to me, as far as I --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
7 MS. CLANTON: If I could assist by directing counsel to
8 paragraph 61 where it says that "Hadzic did not speak much." I think
9 that relates to the point you've just made with the witness.
10 MR. GOSNELL:
11 Q. Sir, why don't you -- I don't know if you have in front of you,
12 do you have paragraph 61 there in front of you?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Would you agree there appear to be some details at least in terms
15 of your recollection that are not recorded there?
16 A. I don't recall Mr. Hadzic speaking much. He certainly -- I don't
17 recall him speaking to me. I don't recall him speaking in English. I
18 recall Arkan doing most of the talking and that he spoke reasonable
19 English, fluent might be a bit strong. I recall him saying that they
20 both liked the work I had done in Glina and Knin, as I've just said. I
21 recall them making me that offer so I'm not quite sure what you're
22 referring to?
23 MR. GOSNELL: Well, perhaps we'll get to that after the break,
24 Mr. President.
25 Mr. van Lynden, this is the time for our second break, 30 minutes
1 as well. So that means we'll come back at 12.45. The Court Usher will
2 escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Clanton.
8 MS. CLANTON: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did you finish your -- the two video.
10 MS. CLANTON: Indeed, we were able to look at both videos and to
11 see which parts had been used with the witness before and which parts
12 were also not related to the evidence that this witness has for this
14 As a general matter, we would not agree to admission of these
15 videos just because they're van Lynden footage. The witness hasn't had
16 an opportunity to see all of the video-clips that are contained in the
17 entire video that the Defence counsel has offered to tendered. And
18 before he could be used to tendered that video he would have to be able
19 to review those clips.
20 Also the Prosecution hasn't been able to revue all of those parts
21 when they are not identified at specific time codes. Because I am
22 familiar with these videos and because they do form part of his evidence
23 I did go back and look at the two particular videos that are dealt with.
24 One of them, now that Defence counsel has shown Mr. van Lynden a segment
25 on Western Slavonia, that entire video is now covered in terms of those
1 reports have been shown to the witness and are part of his evidence.
2 Every other segment is part of his 92 ter and it has got a sub65 ter. So
3 for that one, we propose that if the Defence wishes to tender the footage
4 on Western Slavonia that they tender just that time code and give that a
5 sub65 ter in order that we wouldn't have overlap between what has been
6 admitted as an associated exhibit and what is going in with the Defence
7 request for that portion of the video.
8 For the other video which is 05030, there are several --
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Being the second one or the first one we are
10 discussing about.
11 MS. CLANTON: I believe it is the second one, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Second one. Okay.
13 MS. CLANTON: The second one that was shown the witness, the part
14 that was shown is not the only part that was not shown to him before and
15 not part of his evidence. There are several other news reports in that
16 video that spans 40 minutes that cover topics that have not come up with
17 the witness that we have not shown to him and have not been shown to him
18 by Defence counsel. So at this time we would say they are not
19 appropriate for admission. These are events that happened in other parts
20 of Croatia or other matters related to the developments at that time that
21 aren't part of this case, so far.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
23 MR. GOSNELL: Well, my understanding at least as far as 05030
24 goes --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: The first one.
1 MR. GOSNELL: I think -- I think it's the second one, even though
2 it's --
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
4 MR. GOSNELL: So this is the one that apparently the Prosecution
5 has a particular problem with. Now my understanding and I may be wrong,
6 but I understood that all of this footage was prepared or in some way
7 associated with Mr. van Lynden's work and I don't know how it was put
8 together but the reason why I wish to tender it as a whole is because
9 there does appear to be some kind of a sequence. I don't know how the
10 sequence was put together. I'm not sure if the Prosecution put it
11 together or if Mr. van Lynden had anything to do with that. But we leave
12 that the entire video should be tendered to provide that context.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: What I would suggest is that, for the time being,
14 we MFI it. Parties come together and discuss -- discuss it, see whether
15 they can solve the problem, and come back to us either with agreement or
16 with a request for the Trial Chamber to take the decision.
17 So let's ... let's MFI both of them, yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 05030 shall be given Exhibit
19 D86, marked for identification.
20 And 05033 will become D87, marked for identification.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
22 MS. CLANTON: And, Your Honour, just to clarify, please, the
23 parts of these videos that are associated exhibits, the statement, would
24 not be affected by Your Honours' decision to MFI the remaining parts --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's right.
1 MS. CLANTON: Thank you.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. van Lynden, we apologise for the little
4 delay. We had a technical matter to discuss.
5 Mr. Gosnell, please proceed.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, at paragraph 63 of your statement you say:
8 "To guarantee exclusive access meant that he," meaning Arkan,
9 "was able to control access to the area and presumably prevent other
10 journalists from entering. This kind of control would require the
11 agreement of the military and local authorities."
12 Can I, first of all, ask you what did you mean when you used the
13 expression "local authorities" here?
14 A. Local authorities, I meant that from my experience specifically,
15 actually on the northern route, there were Territorial Defence forces, as
16 those who had taken me to Brsadin and showed me Brsadin as we saw earlier
17 today. So that's really what I was referring to there, rather different
18 to the JNA as a whole.
19 Q. From your observation, were they under the command of the JNA?
20 A. I did not see them on that visit to Brsadin as being under the
21 control of the JNA. They may have, but from what I saw on that visit,
22 they appeared to be under their own control.
23 Q. And during that other visit that we saw the footage of when you
24 were at the front line and we saw a variety of uniforms, would you say
25 that on that occasion you observed that the Territorial Defence was under
1 the control of the JNA?
2 A. I'm not sure at that -- that at that point - this is outside
3 Osijek that you're referring to - that I saw Territorial Defence soldiers
4 there. As far as I am aware, there were reservists and they were
5 professionals and they certainly all came under the command and control
6 of the brigade commander who we saw in that footage.
7 Q. How would you distinguish between Territorial Defence reservists
8 and militia, let's say?
9 A. Different ways. Firstly, in the kind of clothes they wore. For
10 instance, if you look at the footage at Brsadin, you see people also
11 wearing jeans. So there is the clothing. With the reservist, who were
12 often in full JNA clothes but their hair was longer, they had clearly
13 just been called up, and with militia, they had all sorts of different
14 insignia, and, lastly, through whatever Zoran was telling me because he
15 was talking to these people and was able to give me more information.
16 Q. So your impression in terms of uniforms was that green khaki
17 would be reservists, and it would not be Territorial Defence?
18 A. It could be either, but in that case it was often what we were
19 told on the ground as to what people were. My memory and I think my
20 words in that report from Brsadin bears it out is that we were told at
21 that time that these were Territorial Defence.
22 Q. Further along in paragraph 63 you say:
23 "Since this was the offer made by Arkan and Hadzic, a political
24 leader, I figured that they worked together and had agreed that they
25 could actually effect this. Arkan and Hadzic were comfortable with each
1 other and were working together as close allies."
2 Am I correct that that observation on your part is based upon
3 your experience at the patisserie meeting them?
4 A. Basically, yes. We did meet them again in Erdut but for much
5 shorter meetings. But this was my impression from that meeting in
6 Belgrade, basically, yes.
7 Q. You say you met them together again?
8 A. In Erdut, yes.
9 Q. And when and where did that occur?
10 A. After this occasion. We passed by -- because I had been there on
11 my own I also wanted to introduce my field producer to both gentlemen,
12 also because I wouldn't be the only correspondence covering this war and
13 I would -- usually the deal was that I would do 60 days and then would be
14 given a number of days off and somebody else would come in from London,
15 and therefore I felt it was important for Zoran to have met them and he
16 did. My recollection is that we went past an offices and met Mr. Hadzic
17 there and that we were collected from that office by Arkan and then taken
18 to his training facilities or camp, whatever it was, and we were there
19 for not that long. About -- at that camp, for, I don't know, 30 minutes,
20 and then we went on our way.
21 Q. So the time that you see Arkan and Mr. Hadzic together in one
22 another's presence, is when Arkan comes and picks you up from
23 Mr. Hadzic's office. Do I understand that correctly?
24 A. That is correct, yes.
25 Q. And about how long was that overlap when they were both together
1 and you were there with them?
2 A. I don't have a precise recollection of time, but probably not
3 very long.
4 Q. And can you recall what was said, if anything, that you could
6 A. They spoke in Serbo-Croat, and I have no precise recollection of
7 anything that was said at the time, no.
8 Q. So the claim in your statement that they were close allies, your
9 understanding that they were close allies, was based on the patisserie
10 meeting and this interval when Arkan comes and takes you from
11 Mr. Hadzic's office; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. And in the -- the way that they appeared to get on together
13 when I saw them. I had no reason to doubt -- also because they had
14 called this meeting, not the other way around. I didn't ask to see them,
15 they asked to see me. And they had done that together. That led me to
16 the conclusion that they were in close touch with each other.
17 Q. You used the word allies.
18 A. Allies, yes. What's wrong with the word allies? I mean, they
19 were on the same side in the same war. That makes them allies in my
21 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 04678, Defence tab 16, please. And
22 could we please go to 32:12.
23 Q. Now, Mr. van Lynden, this passage is from your cross-examination
24 during the Mrksic case by Defence counsel.
25 A. Mm-hm.
1 Q. And I would like to contextualise your answer with the question,
2 starting at line 3:
3 "Q. You've been around. You have toured many front lines. You
4 have met many warriors. We are talking now about Goran Hadzic and
5 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. I would like to know what you believed their
6 relationship to be like, their mutual relationship. Did they trust each
7 other? Was there perhaps a certain amount of dissidence between them?
8 Just your impression, based on your impression of their behaviour in your
10 "A. It is purely an impression, but it seemed that the two were
11 at least politically of one view. It seemed to me that the two men were
12 quite different. One was a man who did not hide the fact that he led a
13 militia and that he was comfortable with guns and with killing, and the
14 other man, at least in my impression, was more of a political figure that
15 is to say, or us say, not a military figure. How close or not they were
16 was very difficult for me to say in one meeting, where most of the
17 conversation was only with one of them because I couldn't have a
18 conversation with the other, as we didn't have a common language."
19 Now do you stand by that testimony?
20 A. Yeah. The basis, what I'll saying here -- I mean here today and
21 what I said then was, of course, it is based on the impression of one
22 meeting. The two men were different. One was a man who led a militia.
23 And the other appeared to me to be a political leader. But my impression
24 was that they were very comfortable with each other and that they were
25 political allies.
1 Q. Did Mr. Hadzic express any political views during the meeting?
2 A. Not that I recall, nor do I recall -- well, the one thing that I
3 do recall from this meeting, aside from their offer and then a discussion
4 about my personal background and Mr. Raznjatovic telling me that he
5 didn't take prisoners and that if he took me along he wouldn't let me
6 film the killing of any prison that he took, was that I was told that
7 there was going to be a new Serb army, and -- different from the current
8 JNA, a proper Serb army. And that they were both in agreement that that
9 should happen.
10 When I left that meeting and when I was driven away, I wasn't
11 driven back to the hotel I was taken to a villa without any explanation
12 where there was an older man who also, again, who spoke English and who
13 again spoke about the founding of a new Serbian army. As they had sent
14 me to this man, I imagine that they held similar views. Why else take me
15 to the villa, to this -- I mean, by that time it was pretty late at
16 night, the meeting with this man.
17 So that led me -- that is the only thing about the political
18 views that I could add.
19 Q. You say in your testimony in Mrksic:
20 "We didn't have a common language," referring you to and
21 Mr. Hadzic.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you able to say how much Mr. Hadzic was able to understand
24 of your conversation with Mr. -- with Arkan?
25 A. You would have to ask him that. But he appeared completely
1 comfortable with the conversation that Arkan was having with me. I do
2 not recall if Arkan was translating everything. I suspect not. And how
3 much he understood or did not understand, that is not for me to say.
4 Q. Can we now look, please, at paragraph 65 of your statement.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar [sic].
6 And you describe your visit to the training centre, Arkan's
7 training centre, or his barracks, as you describe them. And you say:
8 "It was only when I went to his barracks in Erdut that I realised that
9 his troops were all criminals. It was the most extraordinary collection
10 of faces, all bearing scars and wounds and signs of a life in crime.
11 Their characters were clearly not fit for military service. I could see
12 that they were soft-target people, coming in after the army does the hard
13 work, cleaning up, looting ... "
14 Now, is that -- are those conclusions all based on your
15 assessment of their faces?
16 A. Basically, yes. We were not there very long. I have been with a
17 lot of military units in my life, with both army and with militias. I
18 have never encountered this kind of collection of faces before.
19 From my experience in Beirut of various militias, there had been
20 somewhere it was clearly more a criminal than a military element, and I
21 compared them to that. And my feeling was that this was a criminal
22 rather than a military unit, yeah.
23 Q. You've told us earlier that when you observed the 40 men in
24 Arkan's militia who were in Belgrade in front of the patisserie that they
25 were well presented. Did you observe the same thing when you went to the
1 barracks in Erdut? Leaving aside their faces.
2 A. Well, I can't leave aside their faces. I couldn't see their
3 faces in Belgrade because they had -- they were wearing full camouflage,
4 and it is their faces which made the deep impression on me when I was in
6 As far as their bearing is concerned and the way they wore their
7 uniforms, that was perfectly -- that was -- that looked professional.
8 There was some carrying weapons when I was in Erdut, but a lot of
9 them were not at that moment, which made sense because they were in
10 barracks; whilst in Belgrade they had. And what I saw -- the way they
11 carried their weaponry, they seemed comfortable and professional in that
13 It's -- it's just the faces which I never saw in Belgrade that
14 night that I suddenly did see in Erdut and that's what shocked me.
15 Q. Did you see any other signs that they were -- leaving aside
16 whether they did or didn't commit crimes, did you see signs when you
17 visited the barracks that they were subject to what you would call a
18 professional military discipline?
19 A. Well, there were commanders. I mean, below Arkan. We did not
20 film there. So no, that's ...
21 Q. Did you ever hear that far from coming in behind the army, that
22 actually it was Arkan's unit that was in the front of many attacks in the
24 A. Did I ever hear that? Yes. Did I ever personally witness it?
25 No. I'm also aware of other instances, after this, and specifically in
1 Bosnia, Bijeljina, but also right towards the end of the war in Bosnia,
2 at Sanski Most, that his forces were involved.
3 Q. Did anyone from the JNA talk to you about their relationship,
4 their relationship between the JNA and Arkan's militia?
5 A. There was a - how shall I put it? - a distinct dislike on the
6 part of those that we tried to speak to about the relationship of the JNA
7 with not just Arkan's militia but also, for instance, Seselj's people.
8 Other paramilitary units. And when we asked what is the precise
9 relationship, who is in command, these were uncomfortable questions to
10 which we usually were not given answers by those more senior JNA sources
11 that we had and saw in Belgrade.
12 Q. Does that mean that you had the sense that they knew Arkan was
13 there but they didn't want to acknowledge that to you?
14 A. They certainly knew that Arkan was there. Everybody knew Arkan
15 was there. He was on television. He'd specifically made a great
16 impression when two or three of his men who had been captured and killed
17 by the Croats and had clearly been tortured were returned to them. This
18 is footage that I've seen. And this was shown on Belgrade television and
19 with Arkan making various points, including the point about no longer
20 being willing to take prisoners because of what had happened to his men.
21 So they were absolutely aware of Arkan. They were not just
22 willing to, as I recall, give a detailed explanation as to who commanded
23 who, or how, if he did fall under the orders of the army, how his forces
24 were used.
25 Q. I didn't put my question well and I apologise for that.
1 The question I meant to ask you was: That they were, these JNA
2 officials whom you met in Belgrade, that they had placed him in Eastern
3 Slavonia, that they exercised control over him, that they were using him
4 in operations, and they didn't want to acknowledge any of that to you.
5 A. That may be the case, but they certainly didn't acknowledge it to
6 me, no.
7 However, I would say, his mere presence there meant that it had
8 to be in connivance with the JNA, that the JNA was clearly -- they knew
9 that he was there and his men was [sic] there and that his barracks were
10 there, and that that could not have been the case if the JNA had not
11 allowed it.
12 Q. Did you know that there was a press conference in December or
13 January, December 1991 or January 1992, where there was JNA general who
14 praised Arkan precisely for his role in JNA operations?
15 A. I was not present at the press conference, so, no, I -- I
16 don't -- but no -- back to your original question, I did not get - and
17 these were fairly high sources that we had - anybody saying precisely, He
18 falls under us. We control him. No, they never told us that.
19 Q. And based on your observation of the equipment, weapons,
20 vehicles, attire, was there anything from what you observed at the
21 training centre that suggested to you that there was that connection with
22 the JNA?
23 A. As I already said, they couldn't be there without there being a
24 JNA connection. Just their mere presence there meant that there had to
25 be a JNA connection.
1 Q. I do understand that. But now I'm asking you as somebody with
2 military experience and insight whether, from looking at the weapons, the
3 attire, the vehicles, did any of that suggest that there was a connection
4 between Arkan's militia and the JNA?
5 A. I imagine there was, because, otherwise, why would they have
6 allowed him to have all that material? No, there had to be a direct
7 connection between the two, yes. Although much of the weaponry was
8 western European.
9 Q. You served for two and a half years in the Royal Dutch Marines;
10 is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Is there a component of the Royal Dutch Marines that is known as
13 the anti-terrorist unit?
14 A. It's not quite called that, but, yes, there is.
15 Q. And am I right that they operate, on occasion, with the police,
16 in order to engage in various actions?
17 A. Within any anti-terrorist operations, at least in my days - it
18 may have changed since then - the forces comprised of both police and of
20 Q. Would you describe this unit as special forces?
21 A. No. I would describe it as an anti-terrorist unit, in which
22 there are -- there has to be the capability for different capabilities,
23 let us say. For instance, this capability of sniping is not something
24 that we are taught within the Dutch Marine Corps but where you do have
25 police snipers. So that's just the reason for this. The Dutch Marine
1 Corps as a whole, though, would basically be called a special force
2 within the Netherlands. It's small, we're trained as para commandos.
3 Q. And did their equipment include the issuance of balaclavas?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When would they use balaclavas?
6 A. For night operations.
7 Q. As a means of concealment?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 1D576, please, which is Defence
10 tab 27.
11 Q. How long were you covering the Gulf War, Mr. van Lynden? By
12 that, I'm referring to the first Gulf War.
13 A. From August 1990 until the end of March 1992 -- 1991. Apologies.
14 Q. Did you ever see any Navy Seals of the United States engaging in
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. Do you know whether they were issued with balaclavas as part of
18 their standard equipment?
19 A. They may well be, but I don't know. I've never encountered the
20 Navy Seals.
21 Q. So I don't suppose looking at this photograph in front of us that
22 you can tell us anything that you recognise.
23 A. Not specifically, no.
24 Q. Do you know whether French special forces are also issued with
1 A. I have never worked with French special forces.
2 Q. Mr. van Lynden, thank you very much.
3 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, that concludes my cross-examination.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
5 Ms. Clanton, anything in re-direct?
6 MS. CLANTON: No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. van Lynden, this brings your testimony to an
10 end. We thank you very much for assisting the Tribunal. You're now
11 released as a witness. The court usher will escort you out of the
12 courtroom. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is there anything else to be discussed? I
16 suppose we don't have another witness.
17 MR. STRINGER: He is -- he arrived this weekend for proofing,
18 Mr. President, but our -- our strong preference would be to ask that he
19 begin his testimony tomorrow -- tomorrow morning.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: It seems reasonable, yes, taking into account how
21 late it -- the time right now.
22 So if there's nothing else, court adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.21 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on the Tuesday, the 16th day of
25 July, 2013