1 Tuesday, 10 September 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: May we have the appearances, please, starting
11 with the Prosecution.
12 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
13 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, Case
14 Manager, Indah Susanti, and legal intern, Maggi Qerimi.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And for the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
17 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 The witness may be brought in.
20 Could we go into closed session, please. Sorry.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8359-8445 redacted. Closed session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, may I just add one thing to that.
7 And that is that there was an exchange with the witness at the end of
8 yesterday's hearing, and I decided after that that I did not want to cut
9 the witness off in his answers, and he did give many long answers to
10 questions that could have been answered much more shortly. So I would
11 also respectfully request that that be considered as well.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's say that that is one element, Mr. Gosnell.
13 Have you any idea about how long you would need, taking into
14 consideration that we have little time left?
15 MR. GOSNELL: I do understand, Mr. President. I think with an
16 additional 30 minutes I could certainly wrap it up. And I've also,
17 Mr. President, had a look at the schedule for the remainder of the week,
18 and I'm sure my learned friend can perhaps give a better indication, but
19 my understanding is that the Thursday witness is already scheduled to
20 continue through next week and that is unavoidable.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's right.
22 MR. GOSNELL:
23 So when I look at the other witnesses, I see that we're probably
24 not going to run up against a time problem, in terms of the week's
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's first see when we can finish the videolink.
2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could I please be heard at this
3 point before we move on to the next witness --
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 MR. STRINGER: -- because our view of things is quite
6 significantly different in terms of how we would like to see things
7 proceed or would have liked to see things proceed. He is an important
8 witness but he was led viva voce. Obviously under the guide-lines the
9 Chamber has the discretion to grant additional time beyond the
10 100 per cent of the direct examination, but it's our view that I think
11 the -- the 100-per cent rule is fair here. Mr. Gillett informs me that
12 he, at the moment, would intend about five minutes of re-direct, based on
13 where they are so far. Our request is to finish this witness today and
14 to have him then be completed before the video evidence begins tomorrow
16 It is our wish also then to move beyond the video-conference
17 witness into the next witness, GH-085, who could then also be finished
18 tomorrow. She's not a long witness. She was not on the schedule because
19 at the time the schedule was circulated, we thought we were sitting on
20 Monday next week. But now we're not sitting on Monday next week and we
21 would like to have GH-167 and GH-085 for tomorrow.
22 And while I'm pushing it, if I could just push it one step
23 further, it would be our strong preference to try to avoid the four-day
24 layover for the next witness after that, GH-169. If we could -- if we
25 could sit on Friday, the 13th, then we could -- we could deal with that
1 witness as well and then sort of move into the following week which at
2 present is the last week, which is not without its own scheduling drama,
3 I can assure you. You will be hearing about it. We could move into next
4 week sort of in a better position.
5 I should add also that because of the very fluid scheduling
6 situation that we've got here for these last weeks of our witness
7 evidence, changes have resulted in the fact that for tomorrow, and again,
8 it's only a short re-direct that is envisioned, but Mr. Gillett is away
9 from the Tribunal tomorrow on Tribunal business. Mr. Olmsted would do
10 the re-direct. He knows the witness and has been involved in the
11 witness-taking, but it's certainly not the ideal situation.
12 So I know, Mr. President, that's a lot of requests, but that is,
13 for Your Honours' information, our view of the best way to proceed.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have, or we have, GH-085 on -- on the schedule
16 for Thursday. First witness on Thursday. That's right, isn't it?
17 MR. STRINGER: Yes. The schedule again assumed that we were
18 sitting the following Monday, and with that change now having been made
19 to the schedule for next week, it would be our hope to -- to just move
20 right into GH-085 tomorrow after the videolink. She's here, she's ready
21 to testify.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: And to do that, you would request to continue
23 with this witness this afternoon?
24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: But that's -- that's a difficult one. We have
1 nothing prepared for an extra session this afternoon, or more.
2 MR. STRINGER: I understand. That's -- I had hoped to raise this
3 earlier with the Chamber.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay. So I did take you a little bit by
5 surprise. I didn't have that intention. But I would rather -- I
6 would -- well, with this extra problem, I would rather say, let's try to
7 have the videolink as planned, because we all know that that is very
8 difficult to shuffle that around, and let's have a look what that means.
9 It -- it would half an hour for the OTP; is that correct?
10 MR. STRINGER: For the videolink?
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: For the videolink witness.
12 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: And for the Defence?
14 MR. GOSNELL: 30 minutes.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: So that makes one hour.
16 I would suggest the most reasonable thing would be to continue
17 after. That would be then after the break or even a little bit before,
18 if -- if everything goes well, we finish this witness, which would take
19 one session. And then eventually we could have the -- 085 in the third
20 session, eventually. It's a 92 ter.
21 One hour for the OTP; is that correct?
22 MR. STRINGER: I believe that's correct, Your Honour. Yes.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Does the Defence have an estimate?
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 MR. GOSNELL: We're a little bit less sure on this estimate than
1 the previous one, but we believe one hour.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: One hour. That would make two hours.
3 MR. GOSNELL: Possibly less, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Possibly less, yes, okay.
5 But then we have -- we would be -- it would be on Wednesday,
6 third session.
7 And then we have a witness, 169, who would normally take two
8 hearings as a minimum. Unless one of the parties tells me, or both tell
9 me, that it will be less. They are scheduled for four hours and four
11 Is that correct, Mr. Zivanovic? Four hours?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, that's correct.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So that's again an important witness.
14 That would be for Thursday.
15 And then you would like to have an extra session on Friday, which
16 is rather problematic. And that is to -- to be able to finish your case
17 next week; is that right?
18 MR. STRINGER: I -- I wouldn't say that it's necessary to finish
19 the case next week. I would say that it's primarily motivated out of a
20 preference to avoid having the witness stay for the long weekend now
21 because the Chamber is not sitting on Monday. So he would begin
22 testifying Thursday and then would continue on the following Tuesday.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: But I understand that your Witness 063 is still
25 MR. STRINGER: 063 is -- is for sure. That's the witness who
1 will be in custody here under the Chamber's transfer order.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
3 MR. STRINGER: And GH-002 is a videolink scheduled for next week
4 on the 19th.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, with -- with a reconsideration motion
7 MR. STRINGER: Yes. There are developments there, Mr. President,
8 that the Chamber will see in a filing later today that casts some -- I
9 don't want to say doubt, but it's not clear to us what's going to happen
10 to us next week on the 19th.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So your main problem -- your main problem is
12 169 having to stay over for the long weekend?
13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose that 169 is already in The Hague?
17 MR. STRINGER: He's going to be proofed tomorrow. I think he is
18 arriving today.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, we would object to completing
21 GH-169's cross-examination this week. The Prosecution scheduled GH-169
22 to start -- the cross-examination to start next week. I presume that
23 they checked with the witness to determine whether that was acceptable.
24 We now do, indeed, have one additional day of break. I don't
25 know whether that's a big problem for the witness or not, but it's a big
1 problem for the Defence because this is putting a lot of pressure on our
2 ability to fully and properly prepare cross-examinations. And I don't --
3 I don't want to complain about this too much, but we did see what
5 for a bit of a shotgun week here, and, frankly, we do need that
6 additional time to prepare the cross-examination of 169.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: This is what the Chamber decides to do.
9 We will have the videolink tomorrow as planned. We will have
10 Witness GH-168 after that. And the same day, if -- if Witness 085 is
11 available, we'll have 085. We'll sit on Thursday to hear 169, and he'll
12 have to stay over -- over the weekend, even -- even if it is plus one
13 day. And, for the next week, we leave open the possibility, if there is
16 Yes, Madam Registrar. It appears that you have some redactions
17 to make.
18 If that is all, and if that is clear, court adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of
21 September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.