Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8527

 1                           Thursday, 12 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Muireann Dennehy;

15     Case Manager, Thomas Laugel; legal intern, Simona Onicel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and our legal intern,

20     Maria Jellinek.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Could we go into closed session, please.

23                           [Closed session]

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Page 8530

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness move

21     closer to the microphones and speak up.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Witness -- Ms. Dennehy, do we have a

23     pseudonym sheet?

24             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.  It's tab 1, 65 ter 6493.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we have it on the screen, please.


Page 8531

 1             Madam Witness, on the screen in front of you, you see an

 2     information sheet with your name and your date of birth.  Could you ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please confirm that this information is

 5     correct?  No errors in there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             Madam Witness, I will now, in a minute, ask you to make the

 9     solemn declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the

10     truth.  I have to point out to you that, by doing so, you expose yourself

11     to the penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful

12     information to the Tribunal.

13             Could you stand up for a moment, please, and read out loud the

14     solemn declaration the usher will give you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  GH-085

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may be seated again.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May I ask that the

21     65 ter 6493 be tendered into evidence under seal, please.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked under seal.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 6493 will be Exhibit P2991,

24     under seal.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Your witness, Ms. Dennehy.


Page 8532

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Examination by Ms. Dennehy:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Madam Witness.  Can you hear me in a language that

 4     you understand?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6        Q.   Madam Witness, as Mr. President has explained, you have the

 7     protective measure of pseudonym in this case and therefore I will only

 8     refer to you as Madam Witness during your testimony.

 9             Madam Witness, do you recall giving a statement to

10     representatives of the Tribunal in February 1996?

11        A.   Yes, I recall.

12             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that tab 3, that's 65 ter 2241.1,

13     be shown to the witness but not be broadcast.

14        Q.   Madam Witness, do you recognise the document in front of you to

15     be the statement that you gave in February 1996?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   And do you recognise the signature at the bottom left-hand corner

18     of the first page of that document?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   And before testifying here today, did you have an opportunity to

21     review this statement in your own language?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And when you reviewed that statement, you indicated that there

24     were a number of corrections.  I'd now like to bring you to those.

25   (redacted)

Page 8533











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Page 8534

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 6        Q.   Now moving to the next paragraph, 19, at line 1, it says:

 7             "When I came to Sid, we were taken to the border."

 8             Would you like to make a correction to that particular section of

 9     the sentence?

10        A.   Yes.  We were not taken to the border.  We stopped at Sid.

11     Later, I realised that we were some 20 metres from the police station.

12        Q.   And in relation to the word "we" in that case, who was taken to

13     the border?

14        A.   All other persons captured at Opatovac went to the border.  And I

15     mean only the Croats.  Whoever was not Serbian was expelled from

16     Opatovac.  The women were taken to the border on that truck.

17        Q.   Now at paragraph 23, it says:

18             "During my stay at Begejci camp between the 2nd of October,

19     1991."

20             What date should that be corrected to?

21        A.   It's not the 2nd, but the 26th of October.

22        Q.   And now the final correction.  At paragraph 21 and 22, you refer

23     to Captain Zoric -- excuse me, Zivkovic.  Would you like to make a

24     correction to that name?

25        A.   Zivkovic and Zivanovic, that's the same person.  It's been

Page 8535

 1     20 years, so some of us remember him as Zivkovic.  Others as Zivanovic.

 2        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, that you have made those corrections, if I

 3     were to ask you the same questions as you were asked in February 1996, in

 4     principle, would you give the same answers?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

 7     truthfulness and the accuracy of your statement?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

10     65 ter 2241.1 under seal.  And 65 ter 2241.2 is the publicly redacted

11     version of this document.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 2241.1 will be Exhibit P2992,

14     under seal.  And 65 ter 2241.2 will be Exhibit P2993, public.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MS. DENNEHY:

17        Q.   Madam Witness, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you describe the

18     HDZ rallies in Vukovar.  What was your involvement in those rallies in

19     Vukovar at the time?

20        A.   It was my duty to keep law and order as member of the monitor

21     force of the HDZ.  So, in other words, I was like -- like a bouncer,

22     maybe.

23        Q.   And did you ever shoot a weapon during the armed conflict in the

24     former Yugoslavia?

25        A.   Shoot?  What?


Page 8536

 1        Q.   Did you ever participate in armed -- the armed conflict in the

 2     former Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now, at paragraphs 7 and 8 of your statement, you describe the

 5     surrender of your village Opatovac to the JNA.  How long did the regular

 6     JNA soldiers spend in Opatovac?

 7        A.   From 9.00 a.m. until about 2.00 p.m.

 8        Q.   So they spent approximately five hours there; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And after the JNA soldiers had left Opatovac, what kind of

11     soldiers remained in the village?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, just one moment, please.  Could we

13     go into private session for a moment?

14                           [Private session]

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25                           [Open session]

Page 8537

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 3             MS. DENNEHY:

 4        Q.   Madam Witness, if I can ask you again, what kinds of soldiers

 5     remained in the village after the JNA soldiers had left?

 6        A.   The Serbian reservists entered the village together with the JNA.

 7     They wore JNA uniforms, but they had the Chetnik symbols, the cockades,

 8     on their heads.

 9        Q.   And how did those Serbian reservists that you've just described

10     treat you and the other villagers?

11        A.   They were very brutal.

12        Q.   You describe in your statement the curfew that was in place at

13     the village.  Why did some of the houses have to keep their doors

14     unlocked?

15        A.   Probably so that the reservists could enter at any time of day or

16     night.  And their police too.

17             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, if I may go into private session

18     very momentarily.  This is out of an abundance of caution.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MS. DENNEHY:


Page 8539

 1        Q.   Madam Witness, at paragraph 16 and 17, you describe when you were

 2     taken to Sid on the 24th of October, 1991.  What were you and the other

 3     non-Serbs required to do before boarding the truck?

 4        A.   That morning, they called on us to come down in front of the

 5     Dom Kulture as soon as possible.  A desk was placed there.  Many

 6     reservists and policemen were standing around it, and we had to sign the

 7     already-prepared document that we were leaving all our property to the

 8     SAO Krajina, including our houses, in any case.  We had to do that.  I

 9     refused to sign it, and the same man, Mundjara, pushed me towards the

10     desk and I had to do it.

11        Q.   Now, after -- before I go on, did you sign the document?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  As I said, I -- I had to.  I did sign it.

13        Q.   After you signed the document, the truck departed the village and

14     went to Sid, what happened when you arrived at Sid?

15        A.   Upon entry in Sid, the truck stopped.  They lifted the tarpaulin

16     and a man in uniform approached the truck.  It was a reservist of the

17     Serbian army or, rather, two reservists, two policemen.  I recognised one

18     of them -- actually two, Zeljko Marjanovic and Lazo Tanasic.

19        Q.   Where did this truck stop when it arrived in Sid?

20        A.   We had already entered Sid.  Now what section of Sid it was, I

21     couldn't tell you exactly.  I just know that it was close to the police

22     station in Sid because, later on, they took me to this police station.

23        Q.   And later, when you were first brought to the police station,

24     where exactly, what part of the police station, were you brought to?

25        A.   As we were entering, it was a small yard first and then a big

Page 8540

 1     hall.  To the right, was the entry leading down to the basement, which I

 2     learned later on.  On the left-hand side were the offices.  This was also

 3     something I learned later on.

 4        Q.   You said that there was an entry leading down to the basement.

 5     Were you brought to the basement?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And what happened when you were brought there?

 8        A.   Two female policemen arrived, policewomen, that is to say, in

 9     green uniforms and white belts with pistols, and two reservists with

10     them. (redacted)

11     (redacted).  There were three pillars, I had to stand next to

12     one of them and undress completely until I was stark naked.  Then they

13     checked us out and frisked us to find if we had nothing on ourselves,

14     like weapons or anything.

15             After this inspection, we put our clothes on and they returned us

16     to a hall where there were benches and we had to sit there with our heads

17     bent low, facing the floor, and with our hands on our backs.

18        Q.   At paragraph 19 of your statement, you say that the prisoners

19     were tortured.  Can you please describe the sounds that you heard coming

20     from the basement of the police station in Sid?

21        A.   They took people to the basement, the Croatian prisoners,

22     including myself, and they beat them up.  That was normal.  With batons.

23     Because I saw the policemen going down there, going down to the basement,

24     and they were carrying batons in their hands and we heard cries, Ouch,

25     ouch.  It was very close by so one could hear those screams and moans.

Page 8541

 1     And as they were returned from the basement, we could see that they were

 2     crying, and they would be holding their heads or the shoulder, wherever

 3     they had been hit.

 4        Q.   In your statement, you describe a man from Bapska.  Can you

 5     describe for the Court how he looked when you first saw him enter the

 6     police station?

 7        A.   When the door of the hall opened at one point, a blond, young man

 8     who was of average height entered in.  They had cut off a part of his ear

 9     and he was all covered in blood, which shocked us.  As the door opened.

10     We just looked automatically and we were utterly shocked.  He sat down on

11     the bench next to us.  He still was still bleeding and we did not dare to

12     keep looking at him.  He was probably then taken to an infirmary, and he

13     later returned with his head bandaged.

14        Q.   Mrs. Witness, I'd now like to move on to your time at the Begejci

15     camp.  Can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at Begejci?

16        A.   As usual.  It was something like a big country estate with a

17     fence and a guard, who was a reservist.  He opened the gate for the car

18     that brought me and another two people.  The car was a old Zastava car

19     with the letters "police" on it and the driver was dressed in a police

20     uniform.  Next to him sat another reservist also in a police uniform and

21     the three of us were sitting on the back seat.  So the car entered within

22     the perimeter which was fenced off with three rows of barbed wire.

23        Q.   You've just described that the camp was fenced off with three

24     rows of barbed wire.  How high was the camp fence?

25        A.   It was certainly 3 or 4 metres.  I couldn't tell you exactly, but

Page 8542

 1     in any case, it was certainly 2 metres higher than a man's height.  3 or

 2     4 metres or more.  Nobody could jump over it.  It was really very high.

 3     And there was a guard's post every 2 metres.  Behind it, you could see a

 4     guard with a gun and a big dog, a German shepherd dog, so the man, the

 5     dog and the rifle.

 6        Q.   And where were you brought to when you arrived at Begejci first?

 7        A.   I got out of the car.  I was met by this Captain Zivkovic or

 8     Zivanovic.  He took me to an office.  The door said "police station."  I

 9     got inside and they interrogated me while the other two remained in the

10     car.  I don't know -- I didn't know what was going on with them, until I

11     got out again.

12        Q.   Madam Witness, you mentioned the name of the man who interrogated

13     you.  I don't believe it was recorded on the transcript.  Can you say his

14     name again, please.

15        A.   He was Mr. Zivkovic.  He was a captain and the commander of the

16     camp.  Later on, a major also came there whose name I don't know, but I

17     could see his rank because they were uniformed.  So judging by the ranks

18     I could see, and in the camp they introduced themselves to us.  They

19     would say, I'm Major so-and-so, I'm Captain Zivkovic, I'm the head of the

20     camp.  And we remembered them by this.

21        Q.   And earlier you told us that the name Zivkovic and Zivanovic were

22     used interchangeably; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  But it's one and the same person.  Some remember him as

24     having the last name Zivanovic, and the others remember him as Zivkovic.

25        Q.   What clothes were you ordered to change into when you arrived at

Page 8543

 1     Begejci?

 2        A.   They offered me a JNA uniform, green trousers and a green jacket.

 3     I refused which made them angry, of course, because I had warm, black

 4     trousers on and I asked them to allow me to keep them, because it was

 5     really cold.  It was November.

 6        Q.   And moving on now to went you entered the stable building.  What

 7     did you see when you entered there first?

 8        A.   I was shocked.  People were standing -- or, rather, lying in

 9     rows, like sardines, and all of them had their heads covered by blankets.

10     They took me all the way to the end, to the wall, three reserve

11     policemen, Vojo, Zare --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the third name.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard their names later.  When

14     they brought me to the wall they told me to turn to face them and I

15     thought, Now they will surely kill me.  However, and thank God, that did

16     not happen.

17             MS. DENNEHY:

18        Q.   Madam Witness, the interpreters didn't quite catch the third name

19     that you mentioned.  You mentioned Vojo, Zare, and what was the name of

20     the third?

21        A.   Borko.

22        Q.   Where were you ordered to lie in the stable when you first

23     entered there?  You've just told us you were brought to the end, but who

24     did you lie next to?

25        A.   They pushed a man.  He got up.  I was shocked when I saw that he

Page 8544

 1     was alive.  It was a policeman, a Croatian prisoner, and then he told a

 2     woman who was there to move so that I could lie down next to a man, which

 3     was even more humiliating.

 4        Q.   Now I'd like to move on to the work that took place at the camp.

 5     What work were you and the other detainees required to do?

 6        A.   We had to go to the wood, to collect wood.  In the morning, after

 7     the role call, a reservist would come to the stable, to the wire, and

 8     then say, Run, run.  As I am running, he would run after me and he kept

 9     hitting me with a truncheon on my head, my back, my legs, wherever he

10     could.  While we were running, we would reach the command building where

11     it said "police."  They would order to us stand in a line there, and then

12     they would take us to the forest followed by armed reservists who had

13     huge beards and they carried those bullets on their chests.  I'm not sure

14     how exactly that is called.  They were armed to the teeth.  And the

15     policemen, Borko, Vojo and Zare, were also there.  They had white

16     shoulder straps and belts and pistol holsters.  They were not using their

17     pistols.  So that's how they looked.  It was really frightening.

18             After that, we would go to the woods.  After every 2 metres there

19     was a reservist standing with a dog and a rifle, and as we went deeper

20     into the wood, they would hit us, the soldiers who were standing guard

21     duty there with the dogs.  We went to the woods, collected wood, then

22     brought it back, and they hit me in the same manner.  Not just me but

23     everyone.

24             The second time as I was going back, I thought that I would -- I

25     had collected light wood, that I would have to collect something heavier,

Page 8545

 1     and perhaps then they wouldn't hit me.  However, the same thing was

 2     repeated.  They kept hitting us.

 3             On the following day, a prisoner who was going before me was all

 4     bloody because when they hit him, they cracked his head.  And towards the

 5     end I threw the wood, I ran to the office, and called the major, Major,

 6     Comrade Major, a man is bleeding copiously.  And he got out - that was

 7     Stjepan Milas - and he took Milas inside, they bandaged his head and they

 8     stopped the bleeding.  And I continued with the work.

 9        Q.   How often were you and the other detainees required to work in

10     the woods?

11             Sorry, I'd like to repeat my question.  I believe it wasn't

12     included on the transcript.  How often, Madam Witness, were you and the

13     other camp detainees required to work?

14        A.   I had to do it only three or four times.  But each day some of

15     the male prisoners was taken.  It depended on the amount of wood that was

16     necessary.  They would go.  Because they got their heating from the wood,

17     their offices and their bedrooms, where the police were, all of that.

18        Q.   Madam Witness, I'd now like to show you a document.

19             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 2916.5 be shown but

20     not be broadcast, please.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, can counsel repeat the number,

22     please.

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Of course, 65 ter 2916.5.  That's tab 8 of the

24     Court's bundle.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, e-court doesn't find the document

Page 8546

 1     under that number.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  I apologise, Madam Registrar.  It has now been

 3     released.  It was loaded to e-court but not yet released.  Shall I

 4     read -- the 65 ter again is 2916.5.

 5             Can I instead show another document?  That is 65 ter 6414.  I

 6     believe the document's now ready to be shown.

 7             Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8        Q.   Madam Witness, the document in front of you is not being

 9     broadcast.  Do you recognise the document in front of you?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   And do you recognise the signature at the bottom of that

12     document?

13        A.   I recognise it.  It's my signature.

14             MS. DENNEHY:  Can we scroll to page 2 of this document, please.

15        Q.   Madam Witness, a name on this document that I won't mention is

16     circled.  Can you please tell the Court why that name is circled.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Madam Witness, you circled other names in the document.  Why did

20     you circle those names?

21        A.   I recognised those names of women and men who were with me in

22     Begejci.

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders under seal

24     65 ter 2916.5.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked under seal.


Page 8547

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 2916.5 will be Exhibit P2994, under

 2     seal.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  I would now like to go into private session.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 8553

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:

10        Q.   Madam Witness, you were exchanged on the 10th of December, 1991.

11     And you said in your statement that you promised you would go back to the

12     Vukovar area.  Why have you not returned to Vukovar?

13        A.   I did return to Vukovar.  We renovated the house and we tried to

14   (redacted)

15     that we had left behind.  Neither do now the same people live there

16     because many people were killed or went missing.  Their -- their parents

17     grew older and the children grew up, and I like those children, but they

18     weren't -- they and me aren't company.  And, besides, the economic

19     situation is bad.  There's much unemployment.  It's a difficult life

20     there.  And our friends, our Serbian friends, have now greater rights

21     than we Croats, and that's painful to me because I want everybody to have

22     the same rights.

23        Q.   Madam Witness, do you have any children?

24        A.   Yes.  I left that out talking about the camp.  I was two and a

25     half months pregnant when the reservists entered my village and took me


Page 8554

 1     to Sid and, from there, to Begejci.  I spent two months at Begejci; after

 2     the exchange, four and a half; after that, I gave birth to a healthy son,

 3     who is now a law student in the second year.  Thank God.  And God saved

 4     me when I was giving birth, I focussed on the child, and now I'm very

 5     happy to have him.  The happiest mother in the world.

 6             My husband and I knew that I was two and a half months pregnant

 7     when I had to leave, and in the camp I had lost much weight so the

 8     reservists didn't know that I was pregnant.  Many inhabitants of Vukovar,

 9     when I returned --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what she said

11     before ...

12             MS. DENNEHY:

13        Q.   Madam Witness, the interpreters can't quite hear you.  Could

14     you -- the last we received of your testimony was:

15             "Many inhabitants of Vukovar, where I returned -- when I

16     returned," apologies.  Could you just repeat what you said after that,

17     please.

18        A.   When I returned to Vukovar, I was asked, Is it possible that you

19     survived the camp and the beatings and the mistreatment?  Because they

20     had heard from other camp inmates what had been going on.  And I said,

21     Yes, I survived.  Man is stronger than steel.

22        Q.   Madam Witness, you said that you were pregnant while at the camp.

23     How has your relationship with your son been affected by your detention

24     in Begejci?

25        A.   No -- or, actually, I don't understand what you're asking.  What

Page 8555

 1     do you mean?

 2        Q.   How did your detention change the way that you view your son and

 3     your relationship with him?

 4        A.   It didn't affect it much.  I would be proud of my child and happy

 5     even if I hadn't gone through all that.  When a woman is pregnant and

 6     needs the greatest possible care, I was going through that ordeal.

 7     That's why I'm even more proud of having been able to give birth to a

 8     healthy child without any consequences.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Madam Witness.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, that concludes my evidence in-chief.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see the time.

14             Madam Witness, we'll take a break of 30 minutes now.  We'll come

15     back at 11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours.

23             Before the witness is brought in, I have an unrelated matter,

24     unrelated to this witness, that I wanted to raise, and I want to

25     apologise in advance to Your Honours and to the Defence because it's


Page 8556

 1     somewhat of a late application.

 2             We've got -- I think the Chamber may have the impression, and it

 3     would be correct, that we've encountered a number of scheduling

 4     difficulties as we try to work on these last (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted).  We

12     understand the Chamber is not stridently opposed to hearing evidence ...

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we go into closed session for one -- private

14     session for one minute.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.


Page 8557

 1             MR. STRINGER:  And so the application is, with the Chamber's

 2     permission, to postpone GH-169 until a later time.

 3             Now, this is the witness who is scheduled to begin his testimony

 4     after the current witness.  He is here.  Our problem -- there are a

 5     couple of problems, but the primary one for us is that, as we saw with

 6     the previous witness, Mr. Olmsted, who will be leading this witness's

 7     evidence, won't be able to be here for what is now going to be clearly

 8     the entirety of this witness's evidence and I think that has an impact on

 9     witnesses.  The Prosecution doesn't like to do it like that.  We don't

10     like to begin with one lawyer and then have another lawyer have to step

11     in to do a re-direct or for part of the cross-examination, and that's

12     what's going to have to happen with GH-169.

13             And so we could -- to be completely transparent about it, we

14     could proceed with GH-169.  It would be our strong preference at this

15     point, since it looks like we are going now into the month of October, to

16     bring the witness back and have him testify under what, for us, are the

17     better conditions, both for the witness and -- and for the Prosecution.

18             That would mean that we would not sit today, Mr. President, after

19     the witness is over.  Next Tuesday, we have GH-061.  It's not a full-day

20     witness; probably a session, maybe into the second session.  And then

21     Wednesday next week we would go into GH-063.  We can't begin him any

22     earlier because his arrival is regulated.

23             And so we're in the Chamber's hands, I understand.  I don't know

24     if the Defence has an issue with it, but that would be our application.

25     We think it would just be better and cleaner for us to bring 169 back at


Page 8558

 1     a later time.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We have no position, Your Honours.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The request is granted, Mr. Stringer.  So you may

 7     act accordingly.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Much appreciated, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Do we need to move into closed session -- oh, I'm

11     sorry.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't think so.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.  My name is

18     Zoran Zivanovic.  I am Goran Hadzic's Defence attorney in this trial.

19        A.   Pleased to meet you.

20        Q.   I read your statement.  You probably have it before you or are

21     about to see on the screen.  The number is 2241.

22             Let me first ask you --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

24             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, may I ask that not to be broadcast.

25     I didn't hear Defence counsel say that.  I just wish to protect this

Page 8559

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You're right, Ms. Dennehy.  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, yeah.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] In your statement, you mention that on the

 5     30th of May, 1990, became an active member of the Croatian Democratic

 6     Community.  What does that mean, active member of the HDZ?

 7        A.   It means that I voluntarily joined the Croatian Democratic

 8     Community.  What Croatian Democratic Community means.  To my mind, it

 9     stands for all citizens living in Croatia, which then belonged to

10     Yugoslavia, should be equal.

11        Q.   I was interested in the word "active," what exactly it means.

12        A.   It's not important.

13        Q.   Please explain the following.  You said here that you were a

14     member of the monitors or the order force.  What were the tasks of that

15     group?

16        A.   At the public rally in Vukovar, when the HDZ for the first time

17     presented itself publicly on Franjo Tudjman Square as it is called

18     today -- you know how it goes at rallies.  People gather and there were

19     those iron fences.  And outside of those fences, many Serbs who lived in

20     Vukovar were standing and, of course, they protested.  And I, as a HDZ

21     member, had a band on my sleeve.  That can be seen on the recording too.

22     I was saying to them, Please move away, and they were free to protest

23     outside of that perimeter.

24        Q.   You say normally they protested.  Why do you think that was

25     normal?

Page 8560

 1        A.   Well, you know, probably our programme -- they didn't like our

 2     programme.  But how am I to know why they protested?

 3        Q.   Can you explain why the police wasn't at that rally to preserve

 4     law and order?

 5        A.   It's the same as with any other rally.  When the Serbian party

 6     had its rally, they also had a militia or peacekeeping force.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I see your question is, or was --

 8     can you explain why the police wasn't at that rally.  Do we know whether

 9     the police was at that rally or not?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no.  But I see that it was done by -- by the

11     service of HDZ, of their service.  So I -- I suppose that there was no

12     police, but just --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's ask the witness.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Do tell us if there was police on that square?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You say that you were removing people who were protesting from

18     the fence.  Why didn't the police do that?

19        A.   Well, they did too.  But I, as a voluntary member of the HDZ, I

20     wanted to help.  I quoted my words and remember very well what I said:

21     Please move away so that the programme can go on.  Because they made a

22     lot of noise.

23        Q.   From this sentence, I see that you did that at a number of

24     rallies, not just the one in Vukovar in 1990.  Can you tell us where else

25     and when you did that?

Page 8561

 1        A.   No, I never did that again.  Only in Vukovar.

 2             As for HDZ rallies, I went there proudly, to our villages such as

 3     Tovarnik, Lovas, Opatovac, wherever necessary.

 4        Q.   In other words, this is an error in your statement.  I think that

 5     you can see it, where it says:

 6             During the rallies, for example, Vukovar, in 1990, I was keeping

 7     order as a member of the HDZ police.

 8        A.   That's right.  Someone calls it police, someone calls it the law

 9     and order keeping service.  But what else is police supposed to do than

10     keep law and order?

11        Q.   You also said that some rallies were held at the Dom Kulture in

12     Opatovac, so what I'd like to know is what was the subject of these

13     meetings held at the Dom Kulture in Opatovac?

14        A.   The subject was what attracted me to join the Croatian Democratic

15     Union; namely, that in Croatia we would all be treated equally, all

16     people, regardless of the ethnicity or nationality who we belonged to.

17     All people would be treated equally and would have a good life.

18             If the Serbian side had presented such a programme to me at the

19     time, I would have joined it.  I would have defended -- or if I had been

20     in Germany, I would have defended Germany in the same manner, and I would

21     want good for all people so that everyone would live well.

22        Q.   And what wasn't good up until then, in your view, what needed to

23     be corrected or to be set right by the HDZ?

24        A.   What needed to be set right.  Well, I think that there was a lot

25     of torture. (redacted)

Page 8562

 1   (redacted)

 2     Yugoslavia.  But particularly in Vukovar, the head of the hospital was a

 3     Serb.  The principal in school was a Serb.  The director of the police, a

 4     Serb.  And the servants, or like servants, it was always the Croats at

 5     lower positions.  We seemed to be the servants.  And, of course, we were

 6     dissatisfied with smaller salaries, worse conditions.  We wanted to have

 7     better conditions in our lives.

 8        Q.   You said that you had the honour to contact Branimir Glavas,

 9     Tomislav Mercep and one Mr. Gilja.  Can you tell us according to the

10     information that you had, what were they doing at the time in Vukovar and

11     the surrounding area?

12        A.   They were representing the -- actually introducing there the HDZ

13     programme which implied a better future for the people.

14        Q.   Are you perhaps aware that some of them may have been accused of

15     some crimes or even convicted?

16        A.   Yes, I am aware now, today I am, that Branimir Glavas and Mercep

17     have been indicted unfortunately.  And I say "unfortunately."  This is

18     implied.  They wanted good to everyone, all the people, and I don't

19     believe in the accusations and the charges that are leveled against them.

20     This is my opinion as an ordinary citizen.

21        Q.   Do you know if any sentences were passed?

22        A.   I don't know.  I watch it on TV sometimes.  I see it in the news,

23     but I wouldn't know the details.

24        Q.   Please tell me, after you left the camp in Begejci, the prison in

25     Begejci, that was towards the end of 1991.

Page 8563

 1        A.   The 10th of December, 1991.  I shall never forget the date

 2     because that was when I was reborn.

 3        Q.   I wanted to ask you, once you arrived Croatia and you stayed

 4     there later, it was just that later on that you returned to Opatovac, did

 5     you -- the Croatian authorities ever invite you to say and tell about

 6     everything that was going on in Opatovac and later on, for example, in

 7     Sid and in Begejci?  Do you have any opportunity to tell that to any

 8     official organs?

 9        A.   Yes, they called me to the police.  I was interviewed, and I gave

10     my statements.  Also, in Zagreb, in the Association of Camp Inmates, I

11     gave my statements.  They were recorded and also they were set down in

12     writing.

13        Q.   Could you perhaps remember when that was?

14        A.   I'm really sorry, but I wouldn't know.  I can't remember.  It was

15     more than 21 years ago.  I don't remember.

16        Q.   And can you try to find your bearings.  Was it before the moment

17     in time when you gave the statement to the Prosecution?

18        A.   Yes.  In the Association of Camp Inmates, I did it as soon as I

19     was released from the camp because they looked for me.  I remember that.

20     And as for the rest, I really can't remember.

21        Q.   And the Association of Camp Inmates is based in Zagreb; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And that's where you gave your statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And then later on to the police, was it also in Zagreb or in some

Page 8564

 1     other place?

 2        A.   In Zagreb.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I ask you, Mr. Zivanovic and Madam Witness,

 4     to pause between questions and answers to allow the interpreters to

 5     finish their interpretation.  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   As I was somewhat fast I will repeat my question, though you did

 8     answer it.

 9             The question was whether you also gave the same statement to the

10     police in Zagreb, or was it in some other place.

11        A.   I gave the same statement in Zagreb.

12        Q.   Please tell me if you have heard, and if so, when, that criminal

13     proceedings were being instituted - because of the crime committed in

14     Begejci - against the commander of the camp, Zivanovic?

15        A.   Yes, I heard about that on the television.  I think it was in the

16     news.  I'm not sure, but at any rate I did hear about it.

17        Q.   And could you tell me, when did you hear about this?

18        A.   I don't know.  Really, I don't know the dates.  I'm sorry.  I

19     heard it ... but now that I try to look back, let me try and remember.

20     Perhaps four years ago.  I received at my address in Split this letter

21     asking me whether I would testify in Mr. Zivanovic's case to the effect

22     that he was the commander of the camp in Begejci.  And, of course, I

23     accepted.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, is the record correct that this is

25     about a crime committed in Begejci against the commander of the camp?

Page 8565

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, proceeding against commander of the camp --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- in Begejci.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Now I understand.  Thank you.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And when they invited you to give a statement, did you give a

 7     statement?

 8        A.   No.  They didn't invite me.  Later on -- they said that they

 9     would inform me in writing.  And later on, up until today, I was never

10     informed about anything.

11        Q.   You see, I read your statement which you gave in 1996, and I have

12     read also your statement, if I may put it that way, which you gave to the

13     OTP when you met them on the 9th and 10th of September.  And as we do not

14     have it translated, I won't be able to show it to you, but I will read to

15     you one section in English and you will receive interpretation.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is on Defence list.  It is tab 3, 1D789.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] So in paragraph 15, that's the note by which the

18     Prosecution informs us about what they discussed with you over these two

19     days, and it says here:

20             [In English] "The witness clarified that Captain Zivkovic she

21     refers to in paragraph 22 was the camp commander at Begejci.  On

22     reflection, the witness noted that he is the same person as

23     Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Zivanovic, the camp commander at Begejci."

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

25             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, could I please ask that this not be

Page 8566

 1     broadcast.  To clarify for the record, this is a proofing note to which

 2     counsel is reading now from that was circulated by the Prosecution on

 3     Monday evening.  It does contain the witness's name and various details

 4     so I do believe it should be either in private session but certainly not

 5     broadcast.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We could move into private session.  I'll -- I

 7     didn't believe that it -- it revealed anything, but ...

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If it has the identity, and it probably has the

 9     identity of the witness, then, of course, we should be --

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Maybe the text, yes, that's correct.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's not broadcast it.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And, you see, it was for the first time that I saw here that you

15     said that this Captain Zivkovic - later on you corrected it and said that

16     it was a different surname, Zivanovic - that he was the commander of the

17     camp in Begejci.

18             As I see that you did not mention that in your statement to the

19     OTP given in 1996.  So I wanted to ask you whether you could explain what

20     were the reasons why you didn't say that then, this officer, whether his

21     last name was Zivkovic or Zivanovic, namely, that he was the camp

22     commander?

23        A.   No one asked me.  I believed this to be unimportant, what

24     position he held.  He was the commander.  He existed there.  I learned

25     later on that he was, among other things, also the commander of the camp.

Page 8567

 1        Q.   I saw that in your statement on several occasions you mentioned

 2     this Zivkovic, let me call him because that's how he is referred to in

 3     the statement, and is he called a captain.  Tell me, were you able to

 4     differentiate the ranks in the JNA?

 5        A.   Of course.  I was not a child.  I was a mature person already at

 6     the time.  With three stars, if I need to say, up here, a green uniform,

 7     three stars, and on the cap, by that and also by what people were saying.

 8     He himself came to the Begejci camp and introduced himself.  He said, I'm

 9     Captain Zivojinovic, Zivanovic, that's what I mean.  And I'm saying now,

10     20 years later, many of us mix it up, but I will vouch to you that it's

11     one and the same person.  And now, after 21 years, I would be able to

12     recognise him and describe his appearance.  If you were to show me his

13     photograph in a uniform, I will tell you whether it's him or not.

14        Q.   I don't have the photograph so I cannot show it to you.  But I

15     would ask you if you could please tell me, when you say that he had the

16     three stars on his shoulder --

17        A.   Yes, please, finish your question.  I apologise.

18        Q.   Do you know how many stars a colonel, for example, had?

19        A.   I really don't know.  You can imagine going through the ordeal.

20     I only noticed that on the day when I arrived in Begejci on his uniform.

21     Later on, I was unable to consider stars and ranks or anything like that.

22     I'm really sorry.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

24             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, I was going to object to the

25     question.  The witness has clarified on a number of occasions during her


Page 8568

 1     testimony that this was the camp commander and I believe that question

 2     has been asked and answered already.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.  Let's see where

 4     this goes.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In other words, you knew that the three stars stood for a

 7     captain.

 8        A.   The stars are unimportant.  I'm sorry.  He came there and

 9     introduced himself in the camp.  He said, I'm Captain Zivkovic or

10     Zivanovic.  I'm telling that I mixed this up, whether it's Zivanovic,

11     Zivojinovic.  But he introduced himself, and all inmates, all of us who

12     were there, when we were exchanged, 500 and more, we know that that was

13     him.  He introduced himself to us by his name.

14        Q.   Excuse me, did you say Zivojinovic?

15        A.   Zivojinovic, Zivanovic, please don't make me confused with the

16     last name.  I think I have replied to your question.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session, please.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 8569











11 Pages 8569-8572 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8573

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24                           Re-examination by Ms. Dennehy:

25        Q.   Madam Witness, I just have one question for you.  It relates to


Page 8574

 1     Defence counsel's suggestion that there was an error in your statement

 2     and that pertains to the rallies that took place.  Were there multiple

 3     rallies that took place at the time?

 4        A.   Please repeat your question.  Slowly.

 5        Q.   I would like to ask about the -- the rallies that took place

 6     around Vukovar.  You mentioned this in your statement on the first page.

 7             My question is:  Was there more than one rally over the entire

 8     region?  Not just Vukovar, but the entire region.  Was there more than

 9     one.

10        A.   I don't know ...

11        Q.   Did you attend --

12        A.   Actually, I'm not clear about the question still.  What rally are

13     you referring to?

14        Q.   The HDZ rallies that you referred to in your statement.  Let me

15     read it for you so you can be clear.  You said in paragraph 5 of your

16     statement:

17             "During the rallies, e.g., Vukovar 1990, I was keeping order,"

18     and so on and so forth.

19             Defence counsel suggested that there was an error in relation to

20     this sentence.  And my question is:  Was there more than one rally

21     overall in the -- held by the HDZ in the region?

22        A.   Oh, there's a mistake here.  There was a rally in Vukovar and, as

23     I said, at -- there was one at Lovas, Tovarnik, Opatovac.  Just like the

24     rallies of the Serbian Democratic Party and where they presented their

25     programme.  And other parties also had rallies, but I wasn't interested


Page 8575

 1     in them.  I hope I -- this time around I got your question right?

 2        Q.   Yes, Madam Witness.  That answers my question.  Thank you.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Witness, at page 27 for the parties, you

 6     said that you returned to Vukovar but you didn't say when that was.  Can

 7     you please --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I returned to Vukovar

 9     after the peaceful reintegration, when Vukovar was renovated and our

10     houses.  I couldn't give you the exact date.

11             We renovated our house, and we wanted to stay and live there,

12     but, unfortunately, there's no future there for me, let alone for my

13     child.  Nowadays, the Serbs have greater rights than the Croats in all

14     respects, although I would like us to live there and for us all to be

15     equal and have a good life.  I believe that some day I will return and

16     spend my old age -- the rest of my days there.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You said it's impossible for you to give us a

18     date.  Could you give us a year and eventually a month?  If not, just say

19     so.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot at this moment --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's -- it's --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to remember.  My son was

23     about -- well, he may have started going to school.  Or, rather, just

24     before he was -- was supposed to go to school.  In 1997 or 1996.

25     Somewhere between 1995 and 1997.

Page 8576

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much, Madam Witness.

 2             This brings your --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much as well.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This brings your testimony to an end.  You're

 5     released as a witness.  We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

 6     assist the Tribunal, and we all appreciate how difficult this was for

 7     you.  We wish you a safe journey home.  The court usher will escort you

 8     out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much too.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.52 a.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

14                           September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.