1 Tuesday, 17 September 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MS. BIERSAY: Good morning, Your Honours.
14 Lisa Biersay, on behalf of the Prosecution. I'm here this
15 morning with our Case Manager, Thomas Laugel, and our intern,
16 Maggi Qerimi.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, with intern,
21 Emma Boland.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 Before the witness is brought in, I have two short oral rulings.
24 On 20th of August, 2013, the Trial Chamber requested the
25 Prosecution to file a verification request with CLSS in relation to
1 whether the word "economy" was contained within the audio recording of
2 Exhibit P2798. On the 12th of September the Prosecution informed the
3 Chamber that revised version of transcript for this exhibit had been
4 uploaded into e-court.
5 Are there any objections from the Defence for the old version of
6 transcript to be replaced by the revised version?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 The Chamber instructs the Registry to replace the current
10 transcript with the revised ones and to take all other necessary and
11 appropriate measures to implement this order.
12 Second one is as follows: The Trial Chamber is seized of a
13 Defence request for order to redact certain portions of the transcript
14 4 September 2013 filed confidentially on 16th September 2013. In this
15 request the Defence explains that it received Rule 65 ter document 1D656
16 from Serbia on the condition that it only be used in private session.
17 However, during the hearing of 4 September, the Defence inadvertently
18 used the document in public session. The Defence therefore requests that
19 the relevant portion of transcript be made confidential.
20 I take it the Prosecution has no objection.
21 MS. BIERSAY: None, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: The request is hereby granted and the Registry
23 shall take all necessary and appropriate measures to implement this
25 The witness -- oh, yes, Ms. Biersay, sorry.
1 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Mr. President. Your Honour, there are
2 some procedural matters that with the Court's leave I'd like to address
3 before the witness is brought in.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
5 MS. BIERSAY: The -- the first regards two new proposed exhibits
6 that we'd like to add to our 65 ter exhibit list. One of them is
7 65 ter 6496. The other is 6497. And 6497 is a code sheet that contains
8 some sensitive names and we've just put in person A, B, C, D just to
9 perhaps assist us as we move through the testimony.
10 According to the Defence, they do not have an objection to that
11 one being added and used today.
12 So we'd ask that it be added to our 65 ter exhibit list.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: No objection from the Defence.
14 MR. GOSNELL: Good morning, Your Honours. That's a correct
15 statement of our position.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 MS. BIERSAY: I thought I'd start with the one that we had
18 consensus about first. The second one is 6497 --
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: This request is granted.
20 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honours. Excuse me.
21 The second one is 6496 which, if it could assist the
22 Trial Chamber, I believe it's tab 14. And today we would request that
23 none of the documents used with the witness be displayed publicly and
24 I've had a discussion with the relevant parties regarding that, but I
25 wanted to tell that to the Court.
1 So tab 14 is the photograph, which assisted the witness in
2 describing where she was located when she was interrogated and she
3 identified it on late Sunday/Monday, is when we had the information. And
4 so we'd ask that it be added to assist her and the Chamber as she
5 describes where she was.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is there an objection from the Defence?
7 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, Mr. President.
8 Very late disclosure to us of this. We got it yesterday. It's
9 not vital from what I can see to the witness's testimony or her ability
10 to situate herself or her events, particularly given that her testimony
11 is being admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter and her description of the
12 sequence of events does not appear to depend on any reference to the
13 photograph of the location.
14 So given the late disclosure and saying nothing at all about
15 admissibility which I would have something to say about, but leaving that
16 aside, we do oppose the request.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, apart from the late disclosure or
19 with the late disclosure what -- what would your disadvantage, what is
20 the harm done?
21 MR. GOSNELL: Very hard to know, Mr. President. Very hard to
23 I don't know how the witness will react. And the disclosure, of
24 course, isn't just in relation to when the witness saw, recognised the
25 photograph. I don't know when the photograph was taken, and I don't know
1 why it wouldn't have been disclosed to us sometime between the date that
2 it was taken and now.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: The OTP request is denied.
5 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 And I think --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's all?
8 MS. BIERSAY: -- that would conclude the preliminary matters that
9 we have.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 The witness may be brought in. The witness has protective
13 MS. BIERSAY: That's correct, Your Honour. We -- the witness has
14 been granted face, voice distortion, as well as pseudonym, and we do have
15 a pseudonym sheet --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
17 MS. BIERSAY: -- which is tab 1.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I just want to put on record that normally when
19 we bring the witness in, we go into closed session, but this has been
20 taken care of and we don't need to go into closed session.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Madam Witness. Can you hear me in
24 a language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: You are about to make the solemn declaration, by
2 which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I must point out to
3 you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury,
4 should you give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.
5 May I now ask you to make the solemn declaration. The
6 Court Usher will give you the text of it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: GH-061
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
12 Madam Witness, as you have protective measures to shield your
13 identity from the public, we will not call you by your name. We will
14 just say "Madam Witness."
15 MS. BIERSAY: And the pseudonym sheet in this case, Your Honour,
16 is tab 1, 65 ter number 6491.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 You will see on the screen, Madam Witness, an information sheet
19 with your name and your date of birth. Could you confirm that these data
20 are correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they're correct.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
23 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we would tender -- we would tender the
24 exhibit under seal.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked, under seal.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2995, under seal, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 Your witness, Ms. Biersay.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examination by Ms. Biersay:
6 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness. Can you hear me? Are you
7 comfortably seated where you are?
8 A. Yes. Yes, thank you.
9 Q. Now as --
10 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Your Honour, my microphone goes in and
11 out. Let me just see if it's a wire connection. [Microphone not
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 MS. BIERSAY: Let's see if it stays on.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, it shouldn't, Ms. Biersay. It's -- it's
16 about the protective measures. When -- when the witness answers, you
17 should turn your microphone off. And I think that -- that is what
19 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, it's been doing it quite well. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
21 MS. BIERSAY:
22 Q. Now, Madam Witness, did you provide a statement to the Tribunal
23 in 1996?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that statement that you gave in 1996, did you review it in
1 the English language?
2 A. I did review it, yes.
3 Q. Now, if we may, I'd like to go to tab 5, which is confidential.
4 It's 65 ter number 2521.1. And I'd like first to go to page 4.
5 Now, directing your attention to the English one that's on the
6 right side of the screen, may I ask you to look at that and tell me if
7 you recognise it?
8 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
9 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?
10 A. I recognise my name and surname and my signature.
11 Q. And now -- now if we could go to the next page, please.
12 Also on the right side of the screen, do you recognise your name
13 at the bottom of that page?
14 A. Of course. I do.
15 Q. And do you recognise it to be your name?
16 A. Yes, it is my name.
17 Q. And if we could now go, please, to page 14, e-court page 14, I
19 Now this is the last page of the statement. Do you recognise
20 your signature also on this page?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Now, you gave the English statement in 1996. Was that statement
23 later certified by a Tribunal officer in the year 2003?
24 A. I think so, yes.
25 Q. If we could now go to the B/C/S version. Go to the -- the very
1 last page of the B/C/S version, please.
2 And I'm showing you something that's called -- it's a declaration
3 regarding a 92 bis package. Do you recognise your signature on that
5 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
6 Q. Could we now please go back to page 1 of the B/C/S.
7 At the time that you -- your 1996 statement was certified, were
8 you able to review it in your own language?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when you reviewed it in your own language in 2003, you had
11 some corrections that you made; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are your headphones slipping? We'll help you.
14 Do they feel more secure now?
15 A. It's fine.
16 Q. If we could now go to page 15 in the English and page 12 in the
17 B/C/S, please.
18 Based on your review of the statement in your language, was this
19 addendum prepared, based on your corrections?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were also able to review this package of yours, the addendum
22 and the 1996 statement. You were able to review those yesterday and late
23 on Sunday; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honours, at this time I have a hard copy of
1 the statement. With the Court's permission and the permission of the
2 Defence, I'd like to have Madam GH-061 have this at her fingertips, if
3 need be. It's the hard copy of her B/C/S statement.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 MS. BIERSAY:
6 Q. Now, if we could take a look at paragraph 7 of the statement
7 itself. And, again, in the English version, it begins -- there we go.
8 I'd like to direct your attention to the B/C/S version. And if
9 we could move the -- expand the -- the page for the -- the B/C/S.
10 In paragraph 7, there is the date 1992. Do you see that -- that
11 date? One, two, three lines down.
12 Is that date correct?
13 A. No, it is not correct. It's supposed to be the 2nd of May, 1991.
14 Q. And for the record, this is correctly reflected in the English
16 I'd now like to direct your attention to paragraph 21. And in
17 this paragraph, in two places, you describe a man who had a big knife.
18 The first time is, it begins in the -- in the English, it begins in the
19 third line towards the end. And it reads -- it has two names and then it
20 reads, "A man who had a big knife."
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And at the -- towards the end of that -- the middle of that
24 paragraph, it reads:
25 "Water from the Danube and that there we would admit everything.
1 All this time, the third man had a big knife and occasionally put the
2 knife to my throat and threatened to kill me."
3 Is it the same man who had the knife from the -- the very first
4 sentence that we looked at to the middle of the sentence? Is it the same
5 person? I don't want you to say the name but just to say whether or not
6 it's the same person.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And to facilitate the -- the naming, if we could now switch to
9 65 ter number 6497, which is tab 15.
10 Now, this is a code sheet that you have reviewed, and it has the
11 names of some individuals along with a code. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And those names that you see on the very left, they all appear in
14 your statement; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, they do appear.
16 Q. Now, could you tell us the code-name of the person who had a big
17 knife and occasionally would put the knife to your throat and threaten to
18 kill you?
19 A. Yes. That is Person B.
20 MS. BIERSAY: And at this time, Your Honour, I'd move for the
21 admission of this code sheet which we will use again, I believe.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2996, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MS. BIERSAY: And just in case the witness will need it, I would
1 propose to give her a hard copy so that it's also at her fingertips.
2 And I understand that all the exhibits used with the witness,
3 unless otherwise stated, will be admitted under seal.
4 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you describe in paragraph 8 of your
5 statement, which again is tab 5, 65 ter number 2521.1, and in -- in that
6 paragraph -- actually, if we could look at paragraph 9 instead, please,
7 it reads:
8 "When the situation around Vukovar became critical ..."
9 Could you tell us, if you remember, the approximate date, not
10 specifically a day but the general -- the approximate period of time when
11 that happened, when the situation around Vukovar was becoming critical.
12 A. Well, it was around the middle of June -- no, sorry. The month
13 of the September. Sorry.
14 Q. Now directing your attention to paragraph 14.
15 In this paragraph, you describe the morning after the JNA came.
16 And in that paragraph, it reads:
17 "The soldiers went into our houses and searched everything."
18 When you say "our houses," whose houses do you mean?
19 A. Those were houses of Croatian inhabitants, and mainly non-Serb
21 Q. And when you say "non-Serbs," what groups of people would that
23 A. There were Hungarians in the village. There were houses of
24 Herzegovinians, Bosnians, Dalmatians. All the houses that were not Serb.
25 All non-Serb houses were inspected.
1 Q. In the same paragraph --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I noticed one error in transcript. The
4 witness said they possessed the houses. Not that there were houses. It
5 is on line 20.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you clarify that with the witness,
7 Ms. Biersay.
8 MS. BIERSAY: One moment, Your Honours [Microphone not
10 Q. Madam Witness, could you describe what the JNA did regarding the
11 non-Serb houses.
12 A. When they came into the village, exactly at 9.00 in the morning,
13 the infantry came in, and as they were coming in, they started coming
14 into non-Serb houses. They searched them from roof to the basement, all
15 the rooms, all the cupboards, they raised beds in order to conduct the
16 search. Then the order was given to hang out a white flag or a white
17 towel outside on the windows or on the door, and we who lived in those
18 houses had to tie a white band on the left arm.
19 Q. Now also in that paragraph 14, it reads:
20 "After that there was an order for everyone to go to the local
21 community building."
22 When you say "everyone," what do you mean?
23 A. When I say "everyone," that again relates to the non-Serb
24 population. We had to carry some personal identification document, the
25 ID or the passport, and they were supposed to come and register us.
1 Q. Now also in that paragraph you describe that there was some kind
2 of census based on the identification that you just mentioned; is that
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. What happened to your identification?
6 A. I was identified at -- by the then-ID. And a couple of days
7 later, my passport was taken away.
8 Q. Also in that paragraph, it reads:
9 "We were issued an authorisation letter allowing us to move
10 around the village."
11 Again, what do you mean by "we"?
12 A. When I say "we," I again mean the non-Serb population. We
13 received a white sheet of paper on which was written "certificate issued
14 to," name and surname, allowing him or her to move around certain
15 streets. That means we didn't have complete freedom of movement. We
16 couldn't go wherever we wanted.
17 Q. When you were allowed to move around with this sheet, were you
18 able to move around by yourself?
19 A. Of course not. We were always escorted by two soldiers carrying
20 full gear, military equipment.
21 Q. And did that full gear include any arms?
22 A. Certainly. Full combat gear, I mean to say there were rifles and
24 Q. Now moving to paragraph 16 of your statement. In that paragraph,
25 you describe that sometime after the census, about 30 people were
1 arrested and taken to the local community building for questioning.
2 What ethnicity were these people that you describe there?
3 A. They were mostly Croat.
4 Q. In the same paragraph, you describe how ten of those who were
5 arrested were expelled from the village with their families. And that's
6 towards the -- the end of that paragraph.
7 Could you describe to the Trial Chamber why you would use the
8 word "expelled"?
9 A. I used that word because I saw them carrying very few personal
10 belongings out of their houses in small plastic bags. They were in
11 tears, and they went to a building where the local commune was, where a
12 small truck was already parked, belonging, again, to a Croatian man who
13 was there. He was one of those being expelled from the village.
14 So I knew they were going to take them somewhere away from the
15 village. They were very sad. They were in tears. They had very few
16 personal belongings on them.
17 Q. Now, in paragraph 17, you describe how the soldiers who were
18 arriving in the village were stationed in the houses ... in the houses of
19 Croatians who were expelled. And I don't want you to give any specific
20 names here, but could you tell us where did they go to be housed after
21 they ran out of available Croatian homes?
22 A. Well, after they settled in their -- in those abandoned Croatian
23 houses, since there were no more houses left, they were being put up in
24 the former Dom Kulture, cultural hall.
25 Q. Now this is something that I would like to spend some time on.
1 This cultural hall and what you described throughout in your statement as
2 the local community building, are they the same or are they different
4 A. It's the same building. But on -- on the left side of that
5 building there was a room housing the local commune office. And the
6 other part of the building was used as the cultural hall.
7 Q. How many storeys did this building have?
8 A. The cultural hall had a ground floor where there was a shop and a
9 post office. And the entrance was on the left side. You had to go
10 upstairs. And the first door on the right was the office of the local
11 commune. And if you went on, the next entrance was to the cultural hall.
12 Q. The situation that you just described and the use of the
13 building, was that the situation before the war or during the war?
14 A. Before the war, inside that building, there was the office of the
15 local commune and the cultural hall. During the war, these premises were
16 used for a different purpose.
17 Q. And what purpose was that?
18 A. The room that used to be the office of the local commune was
19 first used for interrogations and as the headquarters of their
20 Territorial Defence. That's what they called it. Whereas the cultural
21 hall was first used as an improvised prison to hold people who were
22 interrogated during eight or ten days and were forcibly detained there.
23 And later on it was used as accommodation for soldiers whom they didn't
24 have anywhere else to put up before they were sent to other destinations.
25 Q. You described the two floors and the -- the room on the -- the
1 left. Were there any structures in the back of the two-storey building?
2 A. Yes. Behind that building, there was an out-structure there,
3 leaning on the building that was used to store firewood for the local
4 commune office. That was during the war -- that was before the war.
5 During the war, they used it to lock up people. Croats.
15 Q. Madam Witness, I'd ask you to look at the code sheet that's
16 before you. And the -- the code that we're using for the village where
17 you were is simply "the village." But I understand -- I understand what
18 you were saying. So in the village where you were, could you -- can you
19 see on this aerial photograph which was taken well after the war, of
20 course, can you see the place that you describe as being the TO
21 headquarters which was also the local community centre?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. Is this a -- can you see it in this format, or does it need to be
24 enlarged a little bit?
25 A. This is enough for me. I recognise the building.
1 Q. So I'm going to ask for some assistance in a moment so that you
2 can use the -- the pen that's on your monitor before you to -- to circle
3 that area.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And that has been marked with a red pen; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where -- can you, on this map, see where you lived with your
8 mother and husband as described in your statement? And if we could
9 change the colour of the pen, it would save us from adding numbers.
10 A. Yes, I can.
11 Q. Could you also circle that, please.
12 A. That would be it.
13 Q. And I note for the record that that is in the colour green.
14 And is there -- are there any churches, or were there at the time
15 any churches near these two places?
16 A. Yes. There was an Orthodox and a Catholic church in the village.
17 Q. Is it possible for you to circle the Orthodox church, please.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And for the record, I'll note that it is a blue colour. Do we
20 have another colour available? The last one, I think.
21 And now, Madam Witness, did the TO office which is now circled
22 red, was that moved to another location at some point in 1991?
23 A. Yes. Towards the end of 1991, they moved to a different place
24 close to the Orthodox church.
25 Q. And could you please circle that location for us.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MS. BIERSAY: And for the record, that is now circled in black.
3 At this time, we'd ask for the admission of the colour-marked
4 version of this aerial photograph.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2997, under seal, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MS. BIERSAY:
9 Q. Now, the place that is circled in red, were you interrogated
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was your husband interrogated there?
13 A. Yes, he was interrogated as well.
14 Q. Was he imprisoned there?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. What weapons, if any, were ever stationed in front of the TO
17 headquarters that you circled red?
18 A. On one occasion, I saw some cannons placed there, towards the
19 side, as far as I was able to see in my fear. They had two big wheels.
20 The guns were trained upwards at the sky, about a metre and a half long.
21 There were ten to 15 of them.
22 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?
23 A. Sometime in the beginning of November, just before the largest
24 attack at Vukovar.
25 Q. You previously described that non-Serbs had to have an
1 authorisation to move on specific roads in the village. Could you
2 describe the curfew that was imposed?
3 A. Curfew was imposed. From 5.00 in the afternoon, it was forbidden
4 to move anywhere outside of your home. The houses had -- had to be kept
5 dark. We had no electricity, no water. And not even candlelight was
6 allowed to penetrate from the windows.
7 Q. What time, if you recall, did the curfew end?
8 A. The curfew was over around 7.00 in the morning.
9 Q. Where -- in the house where you were staying, and you describe it
10 in your statement being your mother's house, where was the toilet in the
12 A. The toilet - that is to say the bathroom - could be accessed from
13 outside because that was a house built in the German style, and you could
14 get into the bathroom from the yard, from the outside.
15 Q. And during the curfew, were you able to access the bathroom by
16 going outside?
17 A. During the curfew, we were not allowed to move at all. And as
18 for our bathroom needs, we had to do that in one separate room. Around
19 5.00 they would bring a bucket, and it was there, between 5.00 p.m. and
20 7.00 a.m., that we had to go to the bathroom.
21 Q. Now, you -- you said that there was no water. How were you able
22 to clean yourself, if at all, during this period?
23 A. We did with very little water. Just for basic, light washing in
24 our private parts and to wash our faces.
25 Q. I'd like to discuss with you paragraph 22 and after in your
2 Towards the end of paragraph 22 and elsewhere, you describe
3 forced labour that your husband, you, and other non-Serbs had to perform.
4 How did you receive the assignments for this forced labour?
5 A. In the the morning, at 7.00, we had to report every day to the
6 local office, that is to say their Territorial Defence. We received
7 there each day an assignment, where, to which locations we would go to
8 work, and two or three soldiers in full combat gear would escort us to
9 those locations.
10 Q. Perhaps you've answered the -- the question, but I will ask you:
11 Why do you use the term "forced labour" to describe this work that you
12 were doing?
13 A. I'm talking about forced labour because I had to go to work
14 mainly for Serbs, both my husband and I and all the Croats who were
15 there. We had to go and do our agricultural work for the Serbs. We had
16 to clean the houses that had been devastated - all of them were Croatian
17 houses - and it was forced because we had guns trained at us all the
19 Q. The translation that I received, it reads:
20 "We had to clean the houses that had been devastated - all of
21 them were Croatian house -- houses - and it was forced ..."
22 Is that accurate?
23 A. Yes, it's accurate.
24 Q. Would you have to report to the TO office again later that day,
25 after reporting in the morning at 7.00 to get assignments?
1 MR. GOSNELL: That's leading, Mr. President.
2 MS. BIERSAY: It's a yes or no question.
3 MR. GOSNELL: It doesn't matter if it's yes or no, Mr. President.
4 It's clearly a leading question.
5 MS. BIERSAY: I can rephrase.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. How many times a day did you have to report to the TO
10 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, it's still leading. And I'm well
11 aware of the content of the witness's 92 ter statement, as is my friend,
12 otherwise I wouldn't be objecting if this was in the statement.
13 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Your Honour. The purpose is to clarify
14 with the witness the statement by -- she's described going to the TO
15 office to report and I'm asking simply how many times she had to do that.
16 I think there's nothing improper about asking for additional information.
17 MR. GOSNELL: Well, for starters, Mr. President, it could simply
18 be: Did you ever go again to the TO office. And then go from there.
19 MS. BIERSAY: I'm happy to use that question.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: I must say, as the reporting as such as in the
21 statement, I don't see a problem with a follow-up question, Mr. Gosnell.
22 MR. GOSNELL: Well, the problem, Mr. President, is that there's
23 no reference to the TO office in the witness's statement much less having
24 gone once or several times. So that's why I'm sensitive, and perhaps
25 oversensitive, but, yes, I am sensitive to this issue for this reason.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. If we don't have the place of reporting,
2 Ms. Biersay, perhaps you could ask where she had to go, where the witness
3 had to go to report.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Madam Witness, could you describe to the Trial Chamber where you
6 had to report to get your forced labour assignments?
7 A. I had to report at the building of the local office where their
8 Territorial Defence was in the morning, at 7.00, and when I finished work
9 in the afternoon at 5.00.
10 Q. If the curfew started at 5.00 and you had to report at the
11 building at -- also at 5.00, how did the non-Serbs manage to do that?
12 A. Non-Serbs did not have the kind of torture that we did. Those
13 who stayed behind communicated by walkie-talkies.
14 Q. I'm sorry, Madam Witness, I think my question was not clear.
15 How did you make it from the -- the local office where the TO
16 was, where you had to report at 5.00, and at the same time the curfew
17 started at 5.00. How did you manage to honour the curfew?
18 A. Well, we would come five or ten minutes before 5.00 to report and
19 fortunately we didn't live far away. My house was, say, the eighth house
20 starting from that building where we had to report. So we would hurry.
21 Sometimes we would even run home in order to make it on time before the
22 curfew would start.
23 Q. I'd now like to turn your attention to paragraphs 19 and 20 of
24 your statement. And in that paragraph, you describe a short dirty man
25 wearing a JNA uniform who was insulting -- who said insulting things to
1 you and swore at you.
2 Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And is it the same person that's mentioned in paragraphs 19 and
6 A. Yes, the same person.
7 Q. And could you please tell the -- the Trial Chamber what he said
8 to you, if you recall.
9 A. Well, I do recall, but I find it a bit embarrassing to repeat
10 those words. I do apologise because I'm going to be very vulgar now but
11 I'm going tell you. He said, I fuck your Ustasha mother. What are you
12 doing there. We wanted to kill some Ustashas last night who were locked
13 up in that small room. But these others, sort of their colleague, did
14 not let them do that. And he insulted me. He swore at me. Cursed my
15 Ustasha mother that we would pay for all of our misdeeds and ...
16 Q. At this time, may we please go into closed session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Closed session, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 MS. BIERSAY: Private session.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 8601-8606 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 MS. BIERSAY:
25 Q. Now, Madam Witness, you've looked at your 1996 statement that was
1 certified in 2003 and the corrections that you made in 2003; correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And, in addition, you've also made more -- a few more corrections
4 today; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. If we consider all of the corrections in conjunction with your
7 statement, would your statement be accurate?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would it also be truthful?
10 A. Yes, it is truthful.
11 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today, would you answer
12 them, in substance --
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 8609-8610 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 Court adjourned.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ten extra minute, Ms. Biersay.
18 MS. BIERSAY: You've read my mind, Mr. President. Yes, I'm over
19 my time, and so with the Court's permission I would like to have ten to
20 15 more minutes with the witness.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ten to 15.
22 MS. BIERSAY: Fifteen.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, that's what I understood.
24 MS. BIERSAY: And I should assure the Court that this is our own
25 witness for today.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Request is granted.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.
4 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 At this time could we please go into private session?
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
7 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 MS. BIERSAY:
6 Q. At some point in January of 1992, you left -- you escaped from
7 the village; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Did your mother stay behind?
10 A. Yes, she stayed behind.
11 Q. Could you briefly describe to the Trial Chamber how she was
12 treated and what happened to her after you left -- you escaped the
14 A. After our escape from the village, my mother stayed behind. A
15 month later, they drove her out. And, in the meantime, she was saying
16 and I heard also from other neighbours who had stayed behind in the
17 village, Croat women, that she had been taken to an execution three
18 times, and she was asked, Where is your slut daughter, the Ustasha woman
19 who ran away with her husband. Of course, my mother didn't know where we
20 were and that happened three times.
21 After the third time, she was driven out of the village. A month
22 later, my mother appeared in Zagreb, carrying only a blanket under her
24 Q. I'd now like to turn your attention to paragraph 22 of your
25 statement. And in that paragraph, you describe that there was a Serb
1 from the village - please don't say his name - who participated in
2 questioning you.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he is someone you knew from before; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. He was the father of my best friend.
6 Q. And this questioning, where did it take place?
7 A. It took place in the local commune office, the room they used at
8 the time as the headquarters of their Territorial Defence.
9 Q. And why is it that you say they use that room as their
10 Territorial Defence? Why do you conclude that?
11 A. Because interrogations took place mainly in that room, the
12 questioning of all non-Serbs who had stayed behind and where we had to
13 report twice a day at 7.00 in the morning and 5.00 in the afternoon.
14 There, we would get our work assignments. And, in the evening, we had to
15 report so that they would know that we had not gone anywhere, that we
16 were going home.
17 Q. And why do you call it "Territorial Defence" as opposed to
18 something else?
19 A. Because that's what they said. That's what they called it. When
20 we received orders, we were told, You have to report to the
21 Territorial Defence in the room which used to house the local commune
23 Q. I'd now like to talk about the impact that these events had on
25 And, firstly, between October of 1991 and January of 1992, did
1 these events have an impact on your weight?
2 A. Yes. I lost weight. I lost 16 kilos.
3 Q. And could you describe to the Trial Chamber what other symptoms
4 and illnesses you developed after these events that you described both in
5 open and in closed session.
8 In October or November, I had hyperventilation, tachycardia. I
9 felt I was suffocating. I was shaking. I had a feeling of panic that I
10 could not control. These panic attacks would set on unexpectedly at
11 different times and I never knew how longer they would last. I would
12 call them attack, fits. I didn't know how long they would last.
13 Hyperventilation, shaking all over my body that I could not control or
15 Q. Did you ever consult with any doctors about the conditions that
16 you suffered from after these events?
17 A. During the war while I was there, no. But after the war, I went
18 to see a doctor. Excuse me. At first, the symptoms were not identified
19 properly. They kept sending me for X-rays of my heart and lungs.
20 However, one doctor whom I knew, who knew me from before, recognised the
21 symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, and his diagnosis was panic
23 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what effect these events
24 had on your marriage.
25 A. Well, the consequences on my marriage were that my husband and I
1 got a divorce. We haven't lived together since 1997. We have not
2 existed as a couple, as a married couple, since 1997.
3 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, I have no further questions,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Biersay.
6 Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.
7 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
8 Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
10 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell, and I represent Mr. Hadzic in
13 these proceedings. I'll ask you a few questions today. If any of my
14 questions aren't clear, please let me know and I'll do my best to assist
16 Do you understand that?
17 A. Yes, I understand.
18 Q. And also by way of preface I want to let you know that I won't be
19 asking you any questions about the violence that you suffered, but I will
20 be asking you about some peripheral details that may be important to us
21 here in this case, so I just wanted to let you know that from the outset.
22 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have Prosecution tab 7 which is
23 65 ter 4491. And I am afraid, out of an abundance of caution, it would
24 be best to go into private session.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 8618 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
22 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] Excuse me, I've lost my
24 Just for the record, could we have the reference to the village
25 redacted. I believe it was said in open session.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed, we're in open session.
2 Thank you, Ms. Biersay.
3 MR. GOSNELL: I apologise.
4 Q. So without mentioning the name of the village, as I wrongly did,
5 were they using the village as a -- a way station, so to speak, on the
6 way to the front line in Vukovar?
7 A. Yes. I state that with full responsibility.
8 Q. And was there a JNA headquarters in the town that you observed?
9 A. Well, to tell you the truth, they had a certain number of people
10 in the village whom I know to have directed some forces as to where they
11 should go, but I don't know anymore.
12 Q. Well, let come -- let's carry on with your statement, and I'll
13 come back to a few more questions about this.
14 If we could look at paragraph 18 of your statement,
15 Madam Witness, you'll see that there's a reference there to Persons B
16 and C, and we won't mention their names. But Persons B and C are
17 mentioned there as taking part in your first questioning.
18 Now, can I, first of all, ask you was anyone else present during
19 that first questioning or interrogation?
20 A. No. During the first interrogation, I was alone in the room with
21 Person B and Person C.
22 Q. And now if we can look, please, at paragraph 21. And this,
23 Madam, is where you describe your second questioning which, as I
24 understand it, and perhaps I can ask you, occurs at 5.00 on the same day
25 as the first questioning; is that correct?
1 A. We.
2 Q. And you say there at paragraph 21:
3 "There were some six of them sitting there. Person B, Person C,
4 a man who had a big knife, and two or three others. While they
5 questioned me, another man came behind my back. I did not know him."
6 Now, it seems from that sentence that the man with the big knife
7 is not the same as Person B, but I understand that from your earlier
8 testimony that that's not correct. Am I right in understanding that?
9 Your testimony is that Person B is the person with the knife.
10 A. Yes. Person B, who was present the first time at the
11 interrogation, there were Person B and Person C at that first
12 interrogation, Person B is the one who had that knife.
13 Q. And if we could now please turn to the addendum in the statement
14 which, in English, is the second-last page.
15 And we see here in your addendum, you refer to paragraph 21, and
16 you describe the content of what is said to you, and I don't want to go
17 back to that. But then here's what you say in the last two sentences:
18 "Some of the soldiers were in camouflage uniforms and some in JNA
19 uniforms. They were all Serbs, but not local ones; they spoke a drawling
20 Ekavian accents [sic]."
21 Now does that statement apply here to all of the people in the
22 room during interrogation number 2?
23 A. Yes. The person who was wearing the camouflage uniform is
24 Person B. He was the only one who wore that kind of uniform. The others
25 wore an olive-green grey uniform.
1 Q. And what does an Ekavian accent mean, in terms of where a person
2 is from? What does it indicate?
3 A. Well, since I lived there for 25 years in that place before my
4 marriage, we could recognise people who came from Belgrade, from
5 Vojvodina, by their accents.
6 Q. Does an Ekavian accent mean that a person came from Belgrade or
8 A. Excuse me, could you clarify which person you mean?
9 Q. Well, first of all, let's just start with a general question, and
10 I'll come back to the person I mean.
11 Can you tell us what it means to you about a person's origin if a
12 person speaks with an Ekavian accent?
13 A. Especially at that time, it was very irritating when a person
14 spoke the Ekavian accent using a crutch word "bre," b-r-e. There was one
15 person who spoke like that. I don't know that person's name. I only
16 know how he acted towards me, how he treated me.
17 Q. Well, here in your statement, you say -- and this is the
18 addendum, the part where it says in paragraph 21, if you would look at
19 your statement and the last two sentences or the last sentence says:
20 "They were all Serbs, but not local ones; they spoke a drawling
21 Ekavian dialect."
22 Now am I wrong in thinking that that seems -- that does refer to
23 more than just one?
24 A. You are not wrong. The people whom I thought not to be locals
25 were the people whom I had never seen before. They did not hail from the
1 village or villages where this all happened. They were strangers.
2 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, Madam Witness, I'm specifically
3 asking you now about this second interrogation that occurs at 5.00 p.m.
4 And am I right in understanding that you didn't recognise any of the
5 people in that room as being locals?
6 A. You're right.
7 Q. And am I also right in thinking that they all spoke with an
8 Ekavian accent?
9 A. You are right.
10 Q. And was this interrogation going on in what you described earlier
11 today as the local commune office?
12 A. Yes. In the local office which they called the office of the
13 Territorial Defence.
14 Q. And now I'd like to move, if I may, to your third interrogation
15 that you referred to in your -- in your statement, which is at
16 paragraph 22.
17 MR. GOSNELL: If we could turn to that, please, on the screens.
18 Q. And here you describe an interrogation that occurs on -- on the
19 next day, the day after the first two interrogations.
20 And am I right again that this interrogation is occurring at the
21 local commune office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you say here that you were:
24 "... brought into the room with the same people who questioned me
25 the day before."
1 By that, are you referring to the same people who were in the
2 room during that second interrogation, the one that occurred at
3 5.00 p.m.?
4 A. Yes. They were all present except Person B.
5 Q. And you explain in this statement in this paragraph, that there
6 are -- if I understand correctly, two additional or two different people
7 who are present at this interrogation? And by that I'm referring
8 specifically to the individual mentioned -- and I guess we need to go
9 into private session.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 8625-8629 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 8632-8643 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: If there's nothing else for the moment, court
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of
1 September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.