141007ED

Page 11891

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: All these documents, I don't think I need to

3 repeat the numbers, but all of them are -- can be admitted to the 65 ter

4 list, including the two the OTP objected to.

5 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Susa.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I want to introduce myself for the record. My name is

11 Zoran Zivanovic, and I appear as Goran Hadzic's counsel in these

12 proceedings.

13 First of all, I would kindly ask you to tell us where you were

14 born and where you lived before 1991.

15 A. As I have said already I was born on the 14th of August, 1957, in

16 Vinkovci as part of the Republic of Croatia which was one of the

17 republics of the SFRY. After birth, shortly afterwards, my parents were

18 employed in a nearby village called Stari Jankovci. I grew up in that

19 village and completed primary education. Then I completed gymnasium high

20 school in Vinkovci and studied law in Osijek. Having graduated from the

21 law school, I became employed as an intern with the public prosecutor's

22 office in the municipality of Vinkovci. Having passed the bar exam, I

23 was appointed to the position of municipal public prosecutor in Vinkovci.

24 I occupied that position until September 1991.

25 Q. Have you testified before in any proceedings before this

Page 11892

1 Tribunal?

2 A. Yes, in 1998, in the case against late Mr. Dokmanovic.

3 Q. In those proceedings, did you provide a written statement to any

4 of the parties?

5 A. In those proceedings, I was heard as a Defence witness by the

6 Defence team headed by Mr. Toma Fila. I also provided a statement to the

7 OTP Prosecutors. As regards the topics discussed with the Prosecutors, a

8 voluminous statement was drafted in English. The interview took place in

9 English as well with the presence of an interpreter. I spoke in Serbian

10 and the interpreter interpreted it into English. The gentleman addressed

11 me in English and it went through the interpreter again. The procedure

12 that was applied was fair, and I signed that statement in English. I

13 signed it in the office of Toma Fila, the attorney-at-law, when the

14 statement was brought in by Mr. Vasic or, rather, his assistant.

15 At that time it had not been translated into Serbian. In my

16 presence, he reviewed it and read it and said it seems to be fine, so I

17 signed the statement.

18 Q. Did you also provide a statement to Mr. Dokmanovic's Defence?

19 A. I believe so.

20 Q. Describe for us briefly the interethnic relations in Croatia

21 before 1990.

22 A. In my estimate, there were good interethnic relations. In the

23 village where my parents worked as teachers, I grew up in the part of

24 village inhabited exclusively by Croats and Hungarians. All of my

25 childhood friends, some of who remain to be my friends, are Croats and

Page 11893

1 Hungarians. As for any discussions based on ethnicity, it simply did not

2 exist. The entire society was expanding. In my view, we developed

3 individually as well as collectively, education was free, and most

4 people -- or basically all of them had jobs. We had good social security

5 and the situation was fine.

6 Q. Did the situation change in the 1990s?

7 A. Unfortunately, yes. As I said, I worked in the municipal

8 prosecutor's office. In addition to standard measures of prevention and

9 sanctioning of crimes, the prosecutor's office is also engaged in

10 carrying out assessments in the field in order to follow certain trends

11 in the society that may cause turbulence or shifts. In the late 1980s,

12 starting, say, with 1989 and 1990, and especially in 1991, we observed

13 that when labourers who worked abroad came back, and had it happened in

14 terms of cycles around Christmas, Easter, and summer, the topics they

15 discussed became increasingly political. There was already mention that

16 the way the SFRY was set up became obsolete and that different social

17 relations needed to be established; i.e., that capitalism needed to be

18 introduced. There was mention that the relationships between the

19 socialist community was not set up properly and that the developed

20 republics such as Slovenia and Croatia were being held back as well as

21 that situation needed changing.

22 There was also discussion about too many Serbs being in senior

23 positions in Croatia either in the economy or the political system. It

24 gained additional momentum in late 1990 and early 1991 when, in Croatia,

25 political emigres became resurfacing in Croatia. Starting with the 1970s

Page 11894

1 onwards, they had problems with the law because of their chauvinism and

2 nationalism and the way they expressed their ideas.

3 If I may, I'd like to add something. Those stories were untrue.

4 For example, I gained employment with the public prosecutor's office in

5 the municipality based on the ethnic principle. What does that mean? It

6 means that certain positions in the judiciary, police, the economy, were

7 going to be occupied relative to the ethnic structure in the

8 particular -- in a particular area. The public prosecutor's office in

9 Vinkovci had the prosecutor and four deputies. I was the only Serb out

10 of those people and that place was supposed to be assigned to the Serb

11 community. I occupied the position of Mr. Branko Mijovic who had

12 proceeded me in the prosecutor's office and then went to the

13 investigation centre of the district court in Osijek. That relationship

14 was also reflected in all other segments of society pertaining to ethnic

15 figures.

16 Q. Can you tell me briefly in early 1990 what was the position taken

17 by the Serb population in Vinkovci and the surrounding area?

18 A. Well, I can only tell you how we experienced it within my family.

19 We're Serbs so this began to cause a certain amount of disquiet. In the

20 beginning, it wasn't fear but it was a kind of disquiet because

21 particularly as far as my parents were concerned the direct memory of

22 World War II was very strong. We later generations experienced that

23 differently but they experienced it personally in their lives.

24 My family, which is not a large family, in the period of 1941,

25 the family, which lived in a number of houses, numbered about 20 of us

Page 11895

1 with the same last name. Four people were between 16 and 25 years of age

2 and they ended their lives in concentration camps from that family, these

3 were my father's brother and sister, and he remembered all of these

4 events as a family tragedy. And, of course, this was something that

5 disturbed the people, made them feel disquiet and among some of them

6 there was even fear.

7 Q. Are you able to tell us how the authorities at the time reacted

8 to these events in Croatia? Did they try to calm things down?

9 A. The authorities at the time were still trying to calm things

10 down. In the period of 1989 and 1990, the state organs viewed on this as

11 something that was not good. But no specific actions were taken in terms

12 of initiating investigations or anything like that. All of that was in a

13 phase of rest. In words, we were in favour of action but we actually

14 never took any action.

15 Q. Are you able to tell us what happened after 1989 and 1990, what

16 happened after that?

17 A. After that -- thank you, yes, it's probably my fault. We were

18 getting ready and we were waiting for multi-party elections. In these

19 preparations for the multi-party elections, many political rallies were

20 held, many parties were being established. Other than the old League of

21 Communists that transformed in Croatia by introducing a series of liberal

22 and free-thinking positions, all the other parties that were founded

23 unfortunately were a bit more nationalist and they vied with each other

24 as to which one would emphasise more the idea that Croatia belonged to

25 Croats and that there should be political and economic independence of

Page 11896

1 Croatia.

2 In some areas of Croatia inhabited by a majority Serb population,

3 parties were founded that were ethnically Serb. I think the worst

4 position was for us, people from urban areas, who at some point did not

5 belong anywhere anymore, neither here nor there.

6 Q. Do you know if there were any specific events that particularly

7 disturbed the Serbian population in the area where you lived?

8 A. Well, you know, incidents that boiled down to verbal and then

9 later mild physical altercations began already from 1989 through 1990 and

10 1991. I myself, at that point in my life, didn't notice any particular

11 changes towards myself. I don't know whether that was because I'm that

12 sort of a man or because of the fact that I was in a respectable post,

13 but nobody exhibited anything bad towards me. Things began to complicate

14 significantly after the HDZ won elections. Everything that went around,

15 talks and threats, actually, began to materialise. It was compulsory in

16 work organisations for you to sign those infamous statements of loyalty

17 to the Croatian state. Even though you did not question in any way the

18 integrity of the Croatian state, nevertheless you had to affirm this in

19 this written document. And the process began in which many Serbs lost

20 their jobs, responsible positions. For example, in my family my wife

21 lost her job, but she actually stayed in Stari Jankovci. She was a music

22 teacher in the elementary school. She lost her job because of her

23 professional qualifications, allegedly, but actually that could not have

24 been questioned because after her they gave the job to a person who was

25 less qualified than she was.

Page 11897

1 So, in conversations with other people, I learned that in their

2 areas as well, perhaps in their families too, the same kind of things

3 were happening.

4 Q. You said that when the HDZ came to power, they introduced some

5 legal measures that had an effect of interethnic relations. Is that

6 true?

7 A. Yes, the constitution was amended so the main body of the

8 constitution, the founding document of a state, Serbs were erased as a

9 constituent element. This represented a serious threat and a danger to

10 the Serbs. I recall -- or I would like to remind that Croatia, the way

11 it was, the Croatia that I was born in, was established after Second

12 World War, after the peoples' liberation fight, and after the pro-Fascist

13 authorities left who formed the so-called independent republic of Croatia

14 from 1941 to 1944. This second Croatia was created on the basis of laws

15 post-World War II and the Serbs paid for that with vast casualties.

16 I wouldn't want to speak about those casualties because I don't

17 want to be accused of bargaining with those casualties, but I must simply

18 say that those casualties were vast. They were not just casualties as a

19 result of direct fighting with the occupation Fascist Nazi forces. The

20 tragic thing is that those casualties were a result of numerous

21 concentration camps such as Jasenovac, Stara Gradiska, Jadovno, and the

22 most awful of them all, the only concentration camp recorded for

23 children, the one in Jastrebarsko.

24 So after all of those casualties, the Croats and Serbs were

25 together in these new organs of power and they established the

Page 11898

1 Socialist Republic of Croatia within the Socialist Federal Peoples'

2 Republic of Yugoslavia which was later renamed to the Socialist

3 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. By being deleted from the

4 constitution, the Serbs got a very ugly message, and also in the press

5 every day you could read very ugly articles about how the Serbs usurped

6 power, they took more than they had a right to, and that this had to come

7 to an end.

8 Q. Besides being removed from the constitution and reading articles

9 in the paper, can you please tell us if any other things happened that

10 made the Serbs feel threatened? Were there any events that would

11 indicate that there would be an armed conflict.

12 A. Well, these were not events. It was an ongoing thing. Already

13 in early 1990 -- and it became more and more frequent from the mid-1990

14 onwards, for example, in Vinkovci you could notice armed persons in

15 classic military uniforms. I asked myself for a long time what these

16 units were, who do they belong to. In view of the fact that I had good

17 connections as deputy prosecutor, I had connections in the police, so I

18 was able to ask the people from the police whether those units were under

19 their jurisdiction, and the answer I would get would be, "No. These are

20 some other units. We don't know who is setting up these units."

21 Evidently by the insignia that they wore, they did not belong to the

22 Yugoslav People's Army either, the only regular army that existed at the

23 time in the territory of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia,

24 including Croatia.

25 Later, we learned that those units were called ZNG, National

Page 11899

1 Guards. What's very typical and important is that members of those units

2 could only be Croats which indicated that a special formation was being

3 created, a police or a military one, we didn't know which one at the

4 time, because already at the time because of that approach constituted a

5 threat to the Serbs. At the beginning the units were located in areas

6 which were not areas where any police or military formations were

7 supposed to be, these were training camps, stadiums. Already in late

8 1990 or mid-1990, these units began to appear in public. They had their

9 patrols. They checked traffic and persons and they did this particularly

10 in areas where there were Serb villages. This caused unpleasant scenes,

11 people were brought out of their cars, they were taken away for

12 interrogations, their vehicles were seized, and there was even physical

13 force applied which in this phase would be restricted to beatings and so

14 on. But in this first stage people were allowed to go home and the most

15 extreme things did not happen yet where people would disappear.

16 Q. And appearance of these armed formations and generally the arming

17 that was going on at the time, how did that affect the Serbian population

18 in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

19 A. Well, it's easy to conclude on the basis of what I have just said

20 that the Serbs were uneasy, and the Serbs began to organise too. They

21 self-organised. People were slowly beginning to form those village

22 guards which during the night would control who was entering the village

23 in order to prevent any incursions. Records were kept of who was

24 interrogated and taken in on a particular day. I think that among the

25 people in the area where I lived, this caused a most serious degree of

Page 11900

1 fear.

2 Q. And now that we're talking about fear, are you able to tell us

3 what it was that Serbs were afraid of at the time? The army existed,

4 there was the police. So what sort of a fear was it among the Serbs?

5 A. I must tell you that initially the army, in a way, could not act.

6 It was sidelined. The army as we knew it was not formed in order to

7 prevent internal conflicts within Yugoslavia. This is something that was

8 primarily done by the police. So people knew that only by

9 self-organising could they get any results because people, you know, they

10 would come to the prosecutor's office when I worked there and they would

11 also go to the police, they would report cases when they were mistreated

12 and when without any warrants their vehicles were seized or other

13 valuables. Police -- the police would say that this was not under their

14 jurisdiction. They said that these were not the units that they had sent

15 out into the field. We in the prosecutor's office, we did not get any

16 investigation reports that we could act upon, and judging by what people

17 told me from Mirkovci, a neighbouring village where my cousins live, for

18 them, all of that was a sign that they had to do everything to secure

19 their own protection; the protection of their families too.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D1201. This

21 is tab 257.

22 Q. You had the opportunity probably to see this petition signed --

23 well, it was sent by the Serbian inhabitants of Stari and Novi Jankovci,

24 the villages that you have talked about. Could you please tell me --

25 well, they cite a series of details about events that were happening

Page 11901

1 about worsening interethnic relations, about incidents, so what I would

2 like to know is if you had any information about this worsening of

3 interethnic relations in Stari and Novi Jankovci?

4 A. All -- I know all the people involved in these unfortunate

5 incident, both Serbs and Croats. I lived in Stari Jankovci until I was

6 27 years old with many of these people. I grew up with them. Yes,

7 unfortunately, everything that is stated in the petition is true. I was

8 informed about it directly. When the petition was drafted, the people

9 informed me that they were going to do it. They asked me if there was

10 any point in doing it. I said that, yes, there was some point in

11 addressing the state organs and asking for their protection.

12 Q. Are you able to tell us, do you know if the organs acted upon the

13 petition?

14 A. Unfortunately, no. Nothing was done. It was just recorded as an

15 incident that would be investigated. All the elements of it would be

16 established, but nothing was actually done.

17 Q. On the second page of the same document we can see a reference

18 being made to the events that happened on the 5th of May, 1991. I can

19 see that that followed the incident in Borovo Selo.

20 Do you know - and if you do know about that incident in

21 Borovo Selo - what happened?

22 A. That was on the 2nd of May, 1991. I was near Zagreb. I went

23 there with my son to attend a tennis tournament. Something happened on

24 the 2nd of May, and I learned about that on the evening news as I was

25 watching Zagreb television. On the following day, I returned home. I

Page 11902

1 already had the information about all that. I had inspected and perused

2 official documents, and it was obvious that the first incident of very

3 low intensity happened on the 1st of May. It was about flags being

4 hoisted. The 1st of May is the international labour day, and on that day

5 people in Borovo Selo hoisted a Yugoslav flag. Two Croatian police

6 officers came. They took the flag down and replaced it by a Croatian

7 flag. There was a verbal argument as a result of that, and I believe

8 that some of the villagers of Borovo Selo beat one of the police

9 officers. The police officers left, they reported on what had happened,

10 and then on the 2nd of May a police expedition arrived in Borovo Selo.

11 They arrived two buses, there were about 100 armed men on those buses,

12 they were well armed, and this started the notorious conflict.

13 As soon as they got off the buses, the police officers started

14 shooting. The man who was sitting in front of the local commune building

15 was killed. Obviously they had informers in Borovo Selo and they knew

16 that armed policemen had set out against them, so the villagers of

17 Borovo Selo were well-informed. They knew that there were armed

18 policemen coming, they returned fire, and as a result some Croatian

19 police officers were killed and a lot of the villagers of Borovo Selo

20 were wounded.

21 We can see that the incident in Stari Jankovci happened on the

22 5th of May, after the burial of one of the police officers who had been

23 killed. By way of retaliation and revenge, the incident happened in the

24 way it was described in this petition.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into

Page 11903

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D1201 will be Exhibit D214.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Could you now please tell us in very general terms what was the

6 effect of the incident in Borovo Selo in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

7 Srem?

8 A. Members of the formation that we have already mentioned, the

9 ZNGs, started getting more and more involved in the happenings. They

10 were fully armed. They had long-barrelled weapons. They started

11 patrolling Serbian villages and blockading them. These were not full

12 blockades, which means that you could go in and go out. However, the

13 controls became very, very rigorous and people were ill-treated on a

14 daily basis. Unfortunately, I have to say that people were also beaten

15 and that was considered to be very normal. The Serbs started withdrawing

16 to their own villages, and when they did leave them, in order to do

17 chores or buy provisions, those ended up in incidents. They were taken

18 to the police stations, they were kept there, they were interrogated.

19 Some extreme happenings were recorded, people went missing, they never

20 returned to their homes, arms were being more often used against people

21 in their fields in the zones of those Serbian villages. A lot of people

22 were wounded and quite a few were killed as well.

23 Q. After these incidents, did people start moving out from Slavonia,

24 Baranja, and Western Srem or in to the province?

25 A. Unfortunately, when it comes to more permanent settlement, very

Page 11904

1 few people settled in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. During the

2 first phase, people started moving out, albeit it slowly, first from the

3 areas bordering on Croatia. And both peoples moved out from there.

4 People who were Croats moved to Croatia, and people from Serbian villages

5 started moving out to Serbia. The first ones to leave were the women and

6 the children and the infirm. Those who remained were young people who

7 were ready and prepared to defend their homes.

8 Q. What about your personal experience? What did you experience in

9 the course of 1991 at the time when interethnic relations worsened?

10 A. In 1991 at the very beginning, I believe that that was in the

11 month of February, I was taken to the hospital for a gall-bladder

12 surgery. The surgery was successful. I felt well but I was very

13 ambitious and I thought that I was feeling better than I actually did.

14 That's why I had to stay on sick-leave for longer than intentionally

15 planned. As I was recovering, I was in my house in Vinkovci. I moved

16 about the town, and I walked by a barricade. Every day I had to pass by

17 a barricade which was some 100 metres away from my house in the direction

18 of the town centre, and it faced the village of Mirkovci. That barricade

19 was constantly manned by some 30 or 40 people, some of them in uniform,

20 some of them in civilian clothes, but in any case they were all armed.

21 Those people knew me. Some of them were my neighbours and they did not

22 pose any problems to me. I could move freely around that barricade.

23 Those barricades, both on the Croatian and Serbian sides, is where shots

24 were heard at dusk. Shots were fired from infantry weapons. Mirkovci

25 and Vinkovci actually are not two separate settlements. They are only

Page 11905

1 separated by a railway line and you really don't know where Vinkovci

2 stops and where Mirkovci starts. In Mirkovci some 500 metres away from

3 the barricade that I have mentioned, there was a Serbian barricade.

4 Every night over the roofs of our houses bullets were flying. We didn't

5 feel safe, but we did not have any other option but to remain living in

6 our houses.

7 On the 9th of July, 1991, after what was possibly the strongest

8 fire that forced all of us in the house to spend the night in the

9 basement, several bullets ended up in the roof of our house. I was

10 sitting with my mother and my wife on the terrace of our house. The

11 morning was sunny and warm. We were drinking coffee. My father had gone

12 to fetch bread. Some 30 to 40 members of the ZNG formation burst into my

13 courtyard. They did not have any search warrants. I asked them what

14 that was all about, and they told us just remain sitting. Don't move.

15 Their weapons were aimed at us and they were cocked. They entered the

16 house.

17 My wife was afraid because our older son was in the room sleeping

18 there. He was 12 years old at the time. She told them there's a child

19 asleep in one of the rooms and a guy responded, "We do not shoot

20 children." They chased my son out of the house and they start searching

21 the house. One of the guardsmen were standing next to me with his rifle

22 aiming at me. I asked him what was happening, and he said we have a

23 report that shots were fired from your house onto the barricade that.

24 That was crazy. It would have never occurred to me to provoke anybody

25 from the house where I was living with my closest, my wife and children

Page 11906

1 and my parents. I only had a hunting rifle in the house and they are

2 used -- such rifles are used only in game hunting. And I also had a

3 pistol that I was issued as a member of the prosecutor's office. I

4 believe that it was the red -- the Crvena Zastava pistol, 7.65. Those

5 weapons were locked in a cabinet to keep them away from the children. So

6 I kept the weapon safe in the cabinet.

7 When the search of the house was completed, and while they were

8 searching the house they broke things, they overturned furniture, there

9 was a lot of damage as a result of that search. I asked them, "Who is

10 your superior?" And then a man introduced himself to me and said, "I'm

11 the one. What do you want?" And he introduced himself to me as Cigo and

12 he said -- I said to him, "I am the deputy public prosecutor in Vinkovci.

13 Here's my official ID." He took that ID and tore it apart. I asked him,

14 "How can you do that?" And he said, "You will tell us everything you

15 have to tell us within the next couple of hours."

16 They did not handcuff me. They pushed me into a van and we

17 started driving through the city. We stopped in front of the football

18 pitch of the football club that was called Dinamo at the time, now it is

19 Cibalija, a gate opened. There is a high fence around the football

20 pitch. I knew that because I had attended football games at that stadium

21 many times, many times before. I saw a lot of members of the ZNG in

22 uniforms. I was taken to a bench. There were several benches in the

23 courtyard. Those were metal benches, fixed to the ground. They told me

24 to get out of the van. I did. And then they handcuffed me. They

25 actually handcuffed me to the bench, and I remained sitting there.

Page 11907

1 Nobody ever said anything to me at that point. And then there came a

2 time when a door opened and a large group of people, some 40 or 50

3 people, entered the cart yard. They were all members of the ZNG. I

4 noticed several wounded among them because they had blood-drenched

5 dressings around their heads or arms or legs. I heard that that unit had

6 attacked people who were doing harvest near the village of Pacetin but

7 that the villagers tried to defend themselves using weapons and they

8 wounded some of the ZNG members. While they were passing by me, one of

9 them or several of them wanted to know who I was. And somebody else

10 said, "He is a Chetnik. He had opened fire on us last night." Some of

11 them started savagely beating me as if they had been given the signal.

12 They beat me on the head, on the body, on the arms. I lost consciousness

13 and I suppose that I fell down by the bench.

14 When I came to I was sitting on that same bench and two lads from

15 the ZNG unit whom I recognised as villagers of Stari Jankovci, one of

16 them was Jurisic and the other was Zecevic, they obviously knew me and

17 they were rinsing my face with the water from a plastic jerrycan.

18 Jurisic told me, "Don't worry, they will not kill you." Obviously I was

19 hurting from the beating. I was sitting. And I realised that I was

20 missing some teeth. And then I -- I -- I realised two or three of my

21 teeth were missing, and I also had a strong pain in the right chest and

22 the right shoulder. My arm was crooked. My right arm was somehow

23 crooked. I told him it seems that my shoulder was broken, and they said

24 no, it's probably just twisted. And then they left.

25 I was sitting there for some 10 or 15 minutes with my head bowed.

Page 11908

1 I was bleeding from my mouth and from my nose. A group of some four or

2 five of them arrived. They uncuffed me. Actually, they cuffed me again

3 and they took me to what they called a face washing. That face washing

4 actually entailed another round of beating in the toilet. One of the

5 guards then pulled a pistol. He put it in my mouth. He pushed it

6 forcefully and then I realised that something was breaking. I -- there

7 was a cracking sound in my jaw. The nickname of that person was Sokac,

8 but it's neither here nor there. I fainted again and they brought me to

9 by pushing my head into the toilet bowl while somebody was flushing the

10 toilet bowl. I heard one of them saying, "You're really going to kill

11 this guy." They dragged me -- or carried me rather than dragged me to

12 that same bench and they tied me to it again. I believe that a couple of

13 minutes passed before a window opened on the first floor and a young

14 officer appeared on the window. He had patches on his shoulders. I

15 don't know what the patches signified. I know that he was sporting

16 spectacles and he said, "You're going to kill this man. Bring him

17 upstairs."

18 Two members of the ZNG came to fetch me. They had not

19 participated in the beating. They literally held me under their arms and

20 they carried me to that guy's office. I found my father there and a

21 friend of ours, Bosko Racanovic. That same morning he had heard the

22 terrible shooting. He knew where our house was and he came to our house

23 to see whether we were all alive. Bosko was bleeding from his nose, my

24 father was -- my -- my -- my father's face was red so I knew that

25 somebody had slapped him around. They were not otherwise injured. On

Page 11909

1 that officers desk there was a military uniform, and when I say

2 "military" I mean a JNA uniform, and there was also a rifle which was not

3 mine. There was also my rifle, my official pistol, and two grenades.

4 At that moment, a door opened behind us. A cameraman arrived and

5 took photos of the entire situation. He left. Nothing happened. That

6 that commander asked me whose weapons are these? I couldn't speak. I

7 was bleeding from the mouth and that blood was pouring all over my body.

8 My father saw that. He started crying from fear when he saw that. I

9 only told him that those were not my weapons. I pointed to all the

10 weapons. And he says I know and -- some -- some of it is yours and the

11 rest belongs to somebody else. He took a grenade, he hooked it to his

12 belt, I saw that there were no other grenades on his belt, and another

13 man who was there took the other grenade, and I realised that those

14 grenades belonged to them. He ordered to his subordinates to take us to

15 the police station. He said, "You're now going to be taken to the police

16 station, they will take your statement, and then everything will be

17 fine."

18 We went to the police station, my father and Basko Racanovic were

19 taken to a room, and they kept me there, exposed to everybody's views, in

20 a hallway behind the public desks. The guards who remained there and

21 kept me at gunpoint asked me to remain standing, although I wanted to sit

22 down. There were people coming to those desks on their business, and

23 they were in a state of shock. They were wondering who I was. And the

24 reply they received was this is a Chetnik who had opened fire on us last

25 night, and this is how everybody of that sort would fair. I wanted to

Page 11910

1 lean against the wall. He pushed me away from the wall and said you are

2 staining the wall with your blood, which is true. And then there was

3 this staircase leading to the first floor. At that moment a member of

4 the ZNG started coming down, that was Cigo whom I already mentioned, and

5 he said to -- to -- tonight you will see what will happen. And that's

6 how I remained standing. Nobody approached us. None of the citizens.

7 None of the police inspectors. At that moment my uncle came from the

8 city. He probably heard that we were there and in his car he transported

9 us to our own house.

10 At home my wife and my mother were trying to put order into the

11 house. I saw them crying. I saw them afraid. And a friend of mine, a

12 Croat, came and told me, "Vojo, I'm begging you, go somewhere. Don't

13 stay. Don't wait for the night-fall in the house. I am afraid that

14 something bad will happen to you. I can't help you and I will feel

15 terrible if something bad happens to you." I had already made my

16 decision. A friend of mine came, another Croat from Vinkovci, a doctor.

17 He tended to my wounds as much as he could and he told me that -- my jaw

18 looked the worst. My pallet looked the worst. He tried to use tampons

19 to close the wound on my pallet. He succeeded to a certain extent. He

20 gave me two painkillers or rather injections, and then he addressed my

21 wife and told her, "Jelena, the best thing for you to do would be to go

22 to Belgrade." He knew that I had an aunt, my father's sister, who lived

23 in Belgrade.

24 He went to see whether there were any trains running to Belgrade

25 on that day, and the trains were still running to Zagreb, Ljubljana,

Page 11911

1 Vinkovci, Belgrade, and further on. He returned to fetch us and he told

2 us, "There is a train leaving in half an hour. There is nobody there.

3 The train will probably be empty. Let me take you there." He did take

4 us to the railway station. He bought us tickets. We got on the train

5 and we started our journey.

6 There was another dangerous point that we had to cross and that

7 was Stari Jankovci. The railway track goes through there and that was

8 where international trains were always stopped. ZNG members controlled

9 the passengers on all the trains there. They entered the compartments.

10 They inspected papers. I heard that things like that happened.

11 Sometimes they would take the people off the trains and those people

12 would be taken somewhere. I didn't know what happened to them

13 thereafter. I don't know who those people were, but in any case there

14 were rumours. But I know for a fact that the trains were stopped in

15 Jankovci and that happened to the train that we were on.

16 I was seated next to the window. A three- or four-man strong

17 patrol came, including a young man who recognised my wife. He told her,

18 "Teacher, what are you doing here?" And then he saw me. It was clear to

19 him that we were actually leaving the area. He held at both sides of the

20 door literally blocking the view from anyone outside. His mates came

21 along he told them, "Move along, things are fine here." He bid us

22 farewell and went on.

23 In Sid when we crossed into Serbia, I was addressed by a man who

24 was part of the official escort of the train, and he said, "I saw you on

25 the train. What's wrong with you?" As I couldn't speak my wife said

Page 11912

1 that we had had some problems since she did not know who he was. He

2 asked whether he should stop the train or if we were able to go on. And

3 I waved my hand to show him that we can go on.

4 By way of radio he called someone in Belgrade and we arrived

5 there. There was an ambulance and a police patrol awaiting us. I was

6 placed in the ambulance while my wife picked up our two children and went

7 to my aunt's place.

8 I was taken to the emergency ward. I was operated on there and

9 the -- and I was bandaged. My shoulder was put back in place. My palate

10 was stitched, and I stayed three days in the ward. Later on, I went to

11 my aunt's apartment where I was treated at home. A nurse would come

12 every day and for five days I received infusion because I was unable to

13 eat. I was blue all over, and I received vaccines to prevent blood

14 clotting. After some ten days, I started walking with a stick and my

15 condition improved significantly.

16 Q. Mr. Susa, how long have you known Mr. Hadzic?

17 A. I met Goran Hadzic in 1973. I was in the second year of

18 high school, whereas he had just started high school. We were introduced

19 to each other through our colleague, Ms. Zivka.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the last

21 name.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They liked each other at the time.

23 We simply started socialising. We did not become exceptionally good

24 friends, but I have known him since that time.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11913

1 Q. Following your education were you still in contact with him?

2 A. Yes. Although not as intensively. Whereas I studied law, he

3 studied economics, and we ran into each other occasionally in Osijek. He

4 did not seem to attend all of the classes at his university but that was

5 the nature of his studies. In any case, we travelled together when we

6 went back home because we stayed in Osijek during the week. When he

7 started working in the same company where his father had worked before

8 retirement, we would see each other. I was a hunter and Goran bred some

9 dogs and we therefore had some common topics. I think the families

10 visited each other, say, every six months or so.

11 Q. During the period where interethnic tensions were being raised in

12 Croatia, did you have contact with Goran Hadzic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Please explain.

15 A. I read in the newspapers that following an incident at Plitvice,

16 Goran was arrested. As far as I could tell from the article, on their

17 return from Knin they stopped at the Plitvice national park where he was

18 arrested. He was taken to Zagreb and then released after a while to go

19 home to Pacetin. He also experienced beatings. My wife and I sat in our

20 car and went to visit him.

21 When I went to Pacetin to see him, it was registered because

22 before we joined the road between Vinkovci and Vukovar, one needs to turn

23 towards Pacetin, and there was a Croatian check-point there. I was

24 stopped and one of the people asked me where we were going. I showed him

25 my official ID, and he asked me, "Mr. Prosecutor, what is your business

Page 11914

1 in that Chetnik village?" Because you had to let them know you were

2 going to turn to Pacetin. Between the barricade and the village, there

3 was perhaps some 150 metres and unless you had previously announced your

4 intention, you may be fired at. I told him that I was going to visit a

5 friend. I didn't say it was Goran Hadzic. I just told him that I had a

6 sick friend. And he said yeah, go ahead.

7 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I --

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.

9 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Perhaps this is the result of very open nature of the questions

11 asked by Mr. Zivanovic, but this whole topic of what happened I do not

12 believe was anywhere in this witness's statements or -- and in the

13 proofing notes, and so the Prosecution is unawares of it.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know what part is not in the statement,

15 and why it is relevant is because it is viva voce witness.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.

17 MR. OLMSTED: Well, the issue is notice. Well, we were not aware

18 that this witness was going to talk about this particular incident, and

19 it should have been at least in the witness summary or in the proofing

20 note or in the 50-some-page statement that this witness provided. But

21 it's nowhere to be found.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If it is related to this particular incident as

23 to visit to Goran Hadzic in Pacetin, we didn't spoke about it. It is

24 first time that I hear from the witness.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 11915

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: You may -- you may move on -- you may continue,

2 Mr. Zivanovic.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Please go on. You were explaining your trip.

5 A. Yes, I stopped at some point. I apologise. I have so many

6 things in my memory and stories to that did not make their way into the

7 statement but I'll try to stick to the statement itself.

8 I was under an obligation to submit a report to the prosecutor's

9 office on my visit to Mr. Hadzic and what I did there.

10 Q. Let me tell you another thing since you are testifying under

11 oath. You are not only limited in your testimony to the content of your

12 statement. Should you remember anything else that is true and accurate

13 and of importance for the proceedings, you have to tell us irrespective

14 of what is contained in the statement.

15 A. Everything I've said so far is true, although it is not up to me

16 to estimate the weight of it.

17 Q. When you arrived Belgrade, did you have occasion to see

18 Goran Hadzic in the period after that?

19 A. Yes, I saw him only once in the home foundation in Belgrade in

20 Nusiceva Street. He asked me then whether I was willing to assume the

21 position of -- in a particular body, although he still didn't know what

22 its name was going to be. He just said that it was supposed to be some

23 kind of centre for civilian affairs in the region. I answered to him

24 that I had already discussed it with Koncarevic and that I was willing to

25 take up that position.

Page 11916

1 I wanted to say that he wasn't at the home foundation to see me.

2 He just spoke to me for a few minutes and he also greeted my wife who was

3 present. He was accompanied by Vitomir Devetak whom I did not know at

4 the time. Later on we were introduced and then I put two and two

5 together and I realised I had seen him before at the home foundation. In

6 any case, they were on their way to a meeting and we only exchanged a few

7 words.

8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I see the clock.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

10 Mr. Susa, we take our first break, 30 minutes, so we will be back

11 at 11.00.

12 Court adjourned.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, did you hear of the existence of the

21 Serb National Council?

22 A. I did, when I was still in Vinkovci. I could read it in the

23 newspapers that the Serbian National Council was established and one

24 could also read about the members. I only knew some of them who had been

25 prominent experts in the fields of culture, education, and alike, and who

Page 11917

1 were Serbs.

2 Q. Were you a member of the Serb National Council?

3 A. No, I was never a member of it.

4 Q. Did you hear about a decision of the Assembly of SBWS from 1991?

5 It was decided that the government of the SBWS be established. The date

6 was the 25th of June, 1991.

7 A. I heard about it when I was in Belgrade. I had no information

8 about the session itself and the decisions reached there until later.

9 Q. When you left for Belgrade, when did you again go to the

10 territory of the Republic of Croatia?

11 A. I returned for the first time in August 1991 after there was

12 preliminary discussion with me about assuming a position in that body

13 that was supposed to be established for the SBWS. That is when I went to

14 Dalj with a group of friends and associates.

15 Q. Who formed the group of your colleagues and friends, and who did

16 you discuss the proposition before going to Dalj?

17 A. Before that there was a conversation in Brane Crncevic's office.

18 Mr. Ilija Koncarevic was present during the conversation as well as

19 Mr. Dusan Pekic, retired general. Then I met the people who were there

20 for the first time. There was also Mr. Simonovic who was the secretary

21 of the federal assembly. Mr. Crncevic asked me, and he was the first one

22 to ask me then, whether I would be willing to assume that position. It

23 all happened before I met Mr. Hadzic at the same place which followed a

24 few days later. I told him that I had no means to support my family and

25 that my circumstances were changed. I had a very serious plan to leave

Page 11918

1 Serbia altogether and to accompany my friend Tomo Ilic to Sidney,

2 Australia. Mr. Crncevic told me that this technical issue of income

3 could be dealt with because he would be of assistance in order for me to

4 find a job and that under such circumstances I would be willing to assume

5 that position. After he said that, I agreed.

6 Q. Tell us how you reached Dalj?

7 A. We used the road from Novi Sad, through a number of settlements,

8 including Srpski Miletic. Then one arrives at a bridge across the Danube

9 in order to reach Erdut. Erdut is the first settlement after the border

10 in Croatia. The next settlement in line is Dalj. That was the route we

11 took.

12 Q. Were there any check-points along the route to Dalj?

13 A. The leg through Serbia, I think it is Bogojevo that is on the

14 other side of the bridge, that is where the first check-point was manned

15 by Serb police. We had our IDs checked and we were let through. When we

16 crossed the bridge when we reached the fork to Erdut, there was another

17 check-point which at that time was of mixed composition. When I say

18 that, I mean to say that there were some policemen as well as JNA members

19 there.

20 Q. Had you been in Dalj before that?

21 A. No, never before.

22 Q. Where did you go? What -- what location in Dalj?

23 A. To the centre of town where there are several buildings. The

24 building we entered and the building where we met was the building of the

25 village library or the town library.

Page 11919

1 Q. Who did you meet in Dalj on that occasion?

2 A. I saw Goran Hadzic there. He was the only one I knew there with

3 the exception of a number of judges, colleagues, and prosecutors who were

4 from Vukovar who, for some other places, were in Dalj that day as well.

5 The colleagues who worked in Vukovar included a colleague who used to

6 work in Osijek, and I knew him in our regular work. Ilija Koncarevic was

7 there, whom I met previously at Mr. Crncevic's, and also

8 Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic came with me together from the direction of Novi Sad.

9 Q. Did you have the opportunity to meet any members of the future

10 government in Dalj that time?

11 A. As I said, there were a number of them there. Maybe ten or

12 fifteen. And that was where I met Mr. Vitomir Devetak again. I'd seen

13 him before. I met Boro Milinkovic. Dr. Jovic. Dr. Mladen Hadzic. I

14 don't know if I saw anybody else there. I cannot remember. I probably

15 did, but I cannot remember their names.

16 Q. And are you able to tell us if you met Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

17 if that was the first time or whether you had met him before?

18 A. On that day in Dalj when I saw him, I wasn't quite sure. I

19 didn't know exactly who that was.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.

21 MR. OLMSTED: That was a very leading question, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, we have -- we have the answer now.

23 So move on but be careful.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I really don't know how to put the question to

25 the witness if he met some particular person. I must tell the name of

Page 11920

1 this -- that person.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please continue.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood your question as being

4 whether I met any people there that I'd worked with before, but it wasn't

5 just those people who were there in the Dalj library. There was some

6 other people there, people in military uniforms, people who evidently

7 belonged to some other formation. When you specifically asked me about

8 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, at the point in time when I saw him in Dalj -

9 and I did see him in Dalj - I didn't know what his function was. At one

10 point a number of people in uniform appeared. These were brown uniforms.

11 I don't know how to describe them. They were modern, brown, war combat

12 military uniforms. This was a group of people that I learned was from

13 Vukovar. There were two brothers. I think they were twins and that

14 their last name was Lazic, and there was evidently somebody there who was

15 leading them and that is how they were sitting at the table and that was

16 the first time that I saw Radovan Stojicic, Badza. Later I got to meet

17 him. But I knew when the first time was that I saw him and I didn't

18 communicate with him then.

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you remember if then or later possibly you had the opportunity

21 to see anyone else, any of his associates perhaps?

22 A. All the people who appeared in Dalj then appeared several times

23 later in places where I happened to be as well.

24 I think that during the next ten days this contact or scene,

25 Badza and people who were there in that group, was something that

Page 11921

1 occurred more frequently. I think for the second time in Erdut, when I

2 saw Radovan Stojicic, Badza, he was in the company of Mr. Zavisic, whom I

3 knew as a high-ranking Serbian operative who I used to meet in Novi Sad,

4 and I think that was the first time in my life that I saw

5 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

6 Q. And did you know who Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was at that time or

7 can you tell us what you knew at that time?

8 A. When I met him for the first time I didn't know almost anything

9 about him. When you meet people in gatherings, you would ask who is that

10 person, who is that person, and those people are asking about you as

11 well. Already on the way back to Belgrade, the people who were there

12 with me, Milos Vojnovic, Bogdan Vojnovic, they told me that this was a

13 very high-ranking member of the Serbian MUP. I knew that of Zavisic.

14 Let me just remind you that at that point when I went to Dalj I myself

15 had began to work in the Serbian MUP as an inspector, independent

16 inspector for economic crimes, and that is the work that Mr. Crncevic

17 said he could fix for me. I received a very high salary for the

18 conditions at the time. I had social insurance. My wife was able to

19 draw on the salary through my bank account, and I was happy that my

20 family was taken care of and I could do some other things.

21 In the city secretariat in Novi Sad when I went to collect the

22 decision about my new post, that was when I met Mr. Zavisic. Before

23 that, I didn't -- I didn't know him.

24 Q. You said that you also saw Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. Can you

25 tell me at that time, did you have any information about him, who he was?

Page 11922

1 A. I had information already from the time I was in Vinkovci, this

2 is very indirect information acquired through the media, where there was

3 talk about how he was captured in Croatia while smuggling arms and there

4 was some kind of court proceedings against him in Zagreb. I think that

5 only a few times before that I had heard of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

6 Of course, later I became more interested and I saw who he was and where

7 he was from and what were all the things that he was involved in.

8 Q. And could you please tell us how people in Slavonia, Baranja, and

9 Western Srem viewed the arrival of Radovan Stojicic, Badza, and the group

10 of policemen who came with him? How did they see that?

11 A. What can I tell you? When you're in danger, when you're afraid

12 for your life, when somebody comes to help you and when that someone is

13 either a representative of Serbia or of the federal organs, then for you

14 that represents a certain relief.

15 Q. And do you know how Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was viewed?

16 A. Well, just like myself people knew very little about Arkan. When

17 he appeared, he brought men with him who appeared like serious soldiers.

18 This was not just a group of people assembled from the street. Already

19 by the way they appeared, by the way they talked, by their conduct, one

20 could conclude that these were members of some serious military

21 formation. Later, getting to know everything that he was involved in

22 better and who all these people were, I received confirmation for this

23 assumption. All of these people were people who completed military

24 schools in other countries. Some of them perhaps in Serbia. They were

25 highly educated soldiers, able to use the latest equipment.

Page 11923

1 Q. And Arkan and the group that came with him, did they take part in

2 combat; do you know?

3 A. Yes, they did participate in combat. They did not carry out any

4 political work in the field. They carried out activities that have to do

5 with military operations in the -- in the field.

6 Q. Are you able to tell us, do you remember when you were elected

7 into the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and what was

8 the post that you were appointed to?

9 A. The Great National Assembly in its session in September, at the

10 proposal of the prime minister-designate Goran Hadzic, selected a

11 government in which I was given the post of minister for justice.

12 Q. Do you remember if Radovan Stojicic, Badza, ever attended these

13 government sessions?

14 A. Yes. Not each one. He would come from time to time. He was a

15 person of a few words. He would sit. Sometimes he would talk about

16 losses in the field, about how serious they were. He did not ever

17 propose anything specific or ask us for any opinions.

18 Q. Did he inform you about military operations, about future plans?

19 A. No, never. We did not take part in the drafting of any

20 operational plans, and after actions were carried out he never informed

21 us about the course of those actions. He would stick to a kind of

22 statistical line where he would talk about the casualties.

23 Q. Did Radovan Stojicic, Badza, ever issue any instructions,

24 directives? Did he ever reach any decisions about any specific problem

25 or anything like that?

Page 11924

1 A. No. No, never.

2 Q. Do you know whether Radovan Stojicic, Badza, ever had any

3 functions in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

4 A. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was the commander of the

5 Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

6 Q. Do you know who appointed him to that post?

7 A. Yes, I know who appointed him indirectly. He was appointed to

8 that function by Serbia.

9 Q. When you say "Serbia," what do you mean more specifically?

10 A. Well, look, at that time the authority of Serbia and organs of

11 the SFRY were overlapping in certain aspects. So he was sent to us to

12 head the Territorial Defence. I believed, and I believe that now, that

13 somebody from the federal organs, or Serbia, was behind that.

14 Q. And do you know if the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and

15 Western Srem adopted a decision appointing Radovan Stojicic, Badza, to

16 that post?

17 A. No. Perhaps that's a bit unusual, but as far as police and

18 military structures, we did not make any strategic decisions, executive

19 decisions.

20 Q. And do you know if perhaps the Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and

21 Western Srem perhaps made such a decision?

22 A. Well, as far as I know, it did not, no.

23 Q. And did Goran Hadzic himself perhaps make that decision ; do you

24 know?

25 A. No, no. I don't think Goran Hadzic would make that decision by

Page 11925

1 himself. It was something that would be made by the government or by the

2 assembly, but the documents that I had indicate that this was not

3 something that was discussed either by the government or by the assembly

4 nor by Goran Hadzic.

5 Q. Do you remember if Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, attended government

6 meetings?

7 A. Yes, he did. More rarely than Radovan Stojicic, Badza. He would

8 come. Sometimes he would be in the hall in entrance to the room where

9 the government sessions were, and sometimes he would be present at these

10 sessions. As opposed to Radovan Stojicic, Badza, he was well-known. He

11 was loud. He would always speak with his voice raised. He would always

12 be discussing something with someone. I didn't really have any frequent

13 contacts with him. I practically had no contacts with him, actually.

14 Q. And at these government session, did he issue any instructions,

15 directives, make proposals to what the government was supposed to do,

16 adopt, things like that?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. Are you able to tell us, if you know, what the relationship was

19 between Radovan Stojicic, Badza, and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

20 A. Like I said, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was a specific figure.

21 You could not make a -- make an impression on him unless you held him in

22 awe. But I think Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was the only person he held in

23 awe. I must said that he had frequent conflicts with mostly two people:

24 Slavko Dokmanovic, late Slavko Dokmanovic, and Boro Bogunovic.

25 Slavko Dokmanovic irritated him because of one thing and that was because

Page 11926

1 Slavko Dokmanovic consumed a little bit more alcohol and he was always

2 slightly inebriated and this is something that really irritated

3 Zeljko Raznjatovic, and he told him that several times in the presence of

4 others including my own. He did not consider Boro Bogunovic as a serious

5 man. He would always ironically say, "Where are you, minister? You're

6 not to be seen anywhere. What service are you heading?" And this

7 unfortunately was true because Boro Bogunovic was very rarely in Erdut.

8 He would always find reasons why he wasn't there. And in principle he

9 was not really a very capable person able to carry out the duties he was

10 given. And during one such conflict with Dokmanovic when Dokmanovic was

11 asking something of Raznjatovic, he wanted Raznjatovic to explain

12 something to him, I didn't understand what the thing was about any way,

13 Arkan started shouting at him and said, "Nobody can ask me about anything

14 here. I don't have to account for my behaviour to anyone. The only

15 person I can report to is Radovan Stojicic, Badza. So please remember

16 that." Nobody ever asked him to report or do anything like that, but

17 generally this applied to everything.

18 Q. You have just mentioned Boro Bogunovic and you said that he

19 attended government session very rarely. Where was his office while he

20 was the minister of the interior?

21 A. He would always be at the wrong place at the wrong time. You

22 couldn't find him when you needed him most. Officially he was in Sid.

23 The distance between Sid and Erdut was half a day at that time. For him

24 that was always a good excuse for not coming to Erdut as often as he

25 should have.

Page 11930

1 result of a conflict with the local leader Jovan Rebraca,

2 Zeljko Raznjatovic appeared in Erdut.

3 Q. How did you learn that Zeljko Raznjatovic appeared in Erdut?

4 A. I have indirect information. Namely, I travelled from Belgrade

5 to Erdut all the time, that was tiring and not very practical, because I

6 had to work and I had a serious job. I didn't have a place to work. I

7 didn't have an office. At one point I turned to Goran Hadzic, I talked

8 to him about my problem, and then he told me, Mr. Vojnovic, and two other

9 ministers to go and take up offices in the administrative building of the

10 winery. And that was across the road from the building where we held our

11 government sessions. We went there, we inspected the premises, those

12 were well presented and fit for office work. I took two offices, I

13 believe, Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic took one, and there was somebody else with

14 us, either Caslav Otic or somebody else, and he took one or two offices.

15 There was not much by way of office equipment. There was just a

16 desk and a chair. We needed machinery. We needed a fax machine, we

17 needed a copier. That's why we decided that we would go back to Belgrade

18 and the next time we were to come we would bring everything with us.

19 That was a decision that we followed through. We appeared in Erdut

20 perhaps a couple of days later. My driver went to unload the van where

21 all those things were, and then he returned, he said our offices were not

22 there. I didn't understand. And then I went there and I realised that

23 the entire winery was taken by the units that I'd not seen before, again

24 impeccably dressed in military uniforms. I saw that military discipline

25 ruled supreme there. I realised that Arkan took up all the premises. I

Page 11931

1 went to see Goran. I complained. And then he said, "Leave it be. We

2 can't deal with the problem at the moment. Leave the things that you had

3 brought in an adjacent room. They will be safe there. In a couple of

4 days we will find some other premises for you." And that's how the whole

5 thing ended.

6 Yes, I learned that Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, had arrived with

7 his unit and occupied the entire building. That's what I learned.

8 Q. Had he gone to the government asking for such premises to be

9 provided to him?

10 A. I have to tell you, when Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, needed

11 something and -- and explained that those things were needed for defence

12 and for the purpose of war operations, he didn't request. He didn't beg.

13 He just took things and used them. And that went without saying.

14 Q. Radovan Stojicic, Badza, also came to those premises with his

15 men. Do you know if he had turned to the government asking for premises?

16 Did he ask for a permission to take up some of those rooms?

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.

18 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honour, it's leading. The first part of the

19 question was assuming facts not in evidence. This witness has not

20 testified about Badza coming to that location.

21 And the second part is somewhat less leading but nevertheless

22 still leading.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It seems that the first part of my question is

24 not properly translated. I -- I asked when Radovan Stojicic, Badza, came

25 not to those premises but in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

Page 11932

1 generally, not in the premises. I didn't mention premises.

2 So my question --

3 Q. [Interpretation] I will repeat my question, sir.

4 When Radovan Stojicic, Badza, arrived in SBWS, did he turn to the

5 government and asked for a permission to take up a location with his men?

6 A. I understood your question the first time round.

7 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, just like Arkan, did not ask for any

8 permissions. Let me just explain: Arkan and Badza did not share that

9 location.

10 Q. You said that when you first arrived in Croatia after you had

11 fled Vinkovci that you found that JNA units that they manned check-points

12 there. When it comes to the JNA and those units, did they ever turn to

13 the government of the SBWS looking for accommodation in their -- in the

14 area?

15 A. No, never. In keeping with the prevalent regulations, they

16 didn't even have to. In a situation when arms are used, a military can

17 requisition assets for their purposes. That was part of our law. They

18 could take whatever they needed against a certificate on the temporary

19 expropriation of assets, and there was nobody who could forbid them to do

20 that. They never asked for any such permission from us.

21 Q. When you mentioned laws and regulations, did they apply only to

22 the military or to any military formations?

23 A. Any military formations. The daily procedures are applied by the

24 police who are always in a position to prevent crimes or destruction of

25 evidence. This goes without saying and there's nothing in dispute about

Page 11933

1 that among the legal profession.

2 Q. Do you know that Goran Hadzic gave that centre in Erdut to

3 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, to be used by his unit for training?

4 A. I don't know that that was the case. How should I put it?

5 Nobody could give Arkan anything and that includes Goran Hadzic.

6 Goran Hadzic was in charge of some civilian activities,

7 programmes and plans, and any assets in that respect. Anything that had

8 to do with military strategy or military defence. There was nobody who

9 could forbid anything to those persons who had been deployed in the area

10 to defend us and to engage in military activities.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, tab 628. It is P194.140.

12 Q. [Interpretation] You had an opportunity to see this document

13 before. My first question about this document is this. Please look at

14 the upper left corner. What you can see here is the Secretariat of

15 President. Was there a secretariat of that kind within the government of

16 the SBWS? Was there a secretariat of the prime minister or the president

17 of the government.

18 A. The government did have a secretariat, the secretariat of the

19 government headed by Mr. Jovan Pejakovic. I never heard that the

20 president had his own secretariat, not in our conditions, and in that

21 sense this order leaves a lot to be desired. It doesn't make sense that

22 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, is appointed as a TO centre and a commander.

23 That may be correct but then it wouldn't be signed by President Hadzic

24 but by the commander of the TO, Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

25 Q. We see a reference to staff commanders. Can you tell us if such

Page 11934

1 positions existed? Were there any such staffs at the time in existence;

2 and, if so, can you tell us what kind of staffs they were?

3 A. It would be very pretentious to discuss any kind of staffs or the

4 Territorial Defence, at least not to the extent its structure should look

5 like.

6 We have touched upon this earlier. In villages where there was a

7 Serb majority, people self-organised and established village guards.

8 They never assumed any type of organisation that would include commands

9 and staffs. There was very little organisation in the process and much

10 chaos. I didn't even know that on 21st September, 1991, there were any

11 TO Staffs. I never saw that in the field.

12 Q. In the upper left-hand corner, you see a number, 1/91, followed

13 by the date. To your knowledge, were there ever cases where different

14 documents would be filed under the same number?

15 A. No, that did not happen. I do have to say that Mr. Pejakovic was

16 a very pedantic and precise person in how he kept records of all

17 government documents. He would not have made that kind of mistake, and

18 even if some mistakes happened, at the very first session of the

19 government he would have it corrected as part of the record.

20 Q. As far as you know, when did Mr. Pejakovic assume his duty, in

21 real terms?

22 A. I came to Dalj in August 1991 for the first time. It was also a

23 consequence of the fact that Mr. Dukovic was supposed to be appointed

24 government secretary. However, Mr. Dukovic did not enjoy the support of

25 his own village, Borovo Selo. He left Borovo Selo for Belgrade and the

Page 11935

1 people there held it against him. Goran did initially accept that

2 Mr. Dukovic be the government secretary, but then he told me that the

3 local population did not want him and suggested Mr. Pejakovic instead who

4 was a lawyer. So even then we agree that Mr. Pejakovic would be the

5 government secretary and he was appointed to that position at the next

6 government session.

7 Q. Did he begin performing those tasks before his appointment?

8 A. Yes. But he was only formally appointed at the assembly session.

9 In real terms, he began filing records and creating the files before

10 that. He put the whole system in place that was supposed to monitor all

11 government communications.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P3217, tab 710.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see this. This is much

14 better.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. It is a proclamation of general mobilisation. I won't go into

17 the contents. I would only ask you to -- draw your attention to the

18 heading in the upper left-hand side corner. Again, we see the same

19 number, 1/91. The document is dated the 23rd of August, 1991, in Dalj.

20 That is precisely what I wanted to ask you. To your knowledge, this

21 document and the preceding one you saw on the screen, could they have

22 been filed under the same number?

23 A. They should not have been. As regards the proclamation, I am

24 aware of its contents and I assisted in drafting it. The time-period

25 does seem to tally, although I cannot be a hundred per cent certain. But

Page 11936

1 as for the number of the document, 1/91, that would seem to be correct

2 because at the time we were busy mobilising people, and I also see that

3 it was issued by the prime minister. In any case, we were all aware of

4 it by the time.

5 Q. Let us now go back to document --

6 A. I have to point out one very important thing. At this point in

7 time, on 23rd of August, 1991, Goran Hadzic was still not the

8 prime minister formally speaking. It was well-known that he was going to

9 assume that duty, but due to the urgency of this matter the document had

10 to be drafted as such in order for it to be signed.

11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us go back to the previous

12 document, tab 628. It is P194.140.

13 Q. Do you know whether Goran Hadzic ever issued documents in the

14 form of orders?

15 A. No. As per law and in keeping with his authority, he was not in

16 a position to issue orders. One had to be commander to issue orders,

17 whereas he was not that. He mainly used decisions within the remit of

18 the prime minister and the government itself.

19 Q. When you returned in August and subsequently in 1991, what was

20 the situation like in SBWS? What kind of living conditions prevailed?

21 A. Difficult ones. As early as June 1991, after tensions were

22 raised and communications ceased between Serb and Croatian villages, the

23 Croatian side cut off electricity. It is a big problem because the

24 electric network was also connected to water supply because of the

25 pumps -- pumps that were used. There was also a shortage of oil and

Page 11937

1 gasoline, commodities such as sugar, salt, flour, they were all lacking

2 and it all contributed to poor living conditions for ordinary people.

3 Q. What was the situation like with the JNA members in the district

4 at the time? And how many were there?

5 A. Their numbers increased constantly because the intensity of the

6 conflict grew. In that situation, Croatian paramilitary formations

7 attacked barracks, surrounding them, cutting off electricity and water

8 supply, and cutting off supply lines, in terms of food, for the armed

9 forces. At the same time, they increased attacks resulting in a number

10 of killed and wounded soldiers. At that time in the SBWS, the number of

11 JNA soldiers was on the increase. They were mostly people who were

12 mobilised. For years before that there was a trend within the JNA that

13 young people, having graduated from high school, would serve their

14 military term before embarking upon their studies at universities. In

15 other words, there were very few serious active-duty soldiers equipped to

16 wage war. In such a situation, units were manned through the process of

17 mobilisation.

18 Q. I wanted to ask you something about the authority of the

19 government, but for the time being I'd like to focus only on Stojicic,

20 Badza, and the people he brought with him, as well as Zeljko Raznjatovic,

21 Arkan, and his group. Did the government have any legal or factual

22 authority to order anything to Stojicic, Badza, or Raznjatovic, Arkan?

23 Could it order them to do something or not to do something?

24 A. I think I have already answered that question. Let me repeat.

25 There was no possibility for the government as a whole, as well as

Page 11938

1 Goran Hadzic individually, to order anything to the two people in

2 question or to prohibit them from doing anything. Anyone who spent more

3 than a day there was in a position to see that for themselves. As a

4 government member, I never took part in issuing a single decision that

5 would order those people to do something or request anything of them.

6 Q. Did the government have any factual ability to use force to, say,

7 have Radovan Stojicic and his group or Raznjatovic, Arkan, and his group

8 removed from the area of the SBWS?

9 A. Even if someone had wanted to do something like that, you would

10 have needed a much stronger force than they had. I have to tell you,

11 though, that we had no force at our disposal whatsoever. Perhaps the odd

12 government member did have a side-arm but no one was very skilful in

13 soldierly skills. A few of us had drivers or security escort and we did

14 have a team of guards that guarded the government premises round the

15 clock. Perhaps there was a dozen of them, but I doubt they were any more

16 capable in -- in military sense than the rest of us ordinary people. In

17 other words, we had no possibility to prohibit anything to these two or

18 to have them removed from the area unless they wanted to do so

19 themselves.

20 Q. What kind of relationship was there between Stojicic, Badza, and

21 the JNA and its officers?

22 A. Their relationship was excellent. They all co-ordinated their

23 activities, as far as I could see. They held daily meetings where

24 reports were submitted, attended by Stojicic and Arkan or one of his men

25 and JNA representatives. Their command was in Erdut. It is well known

Page 11939

1 that Arkan was on exceptionally good terms with General -- I can't recall

2 his last name off the cuff. His last name begins with a B. He was

3 killed later on. Yes, Bratic, General Bratic. Later on, he had the same

4 kind of relationship with Biorcevic.

5 As for Stojicic, Badza, he was in daily contact -- well, there

6 was a room in Erdut that we had to passes by en route to our government

7 offices. We would frequently see them in the yard where they stood and

8 we would great them before moving on to our premises.

9 Q. Tell us something about the work of the government itself. Who

10 presided over the government sessions?

11 A. If Goran Hadzic was present, he presided. In his absence, it was

12 basically done by Dr. Mladen Hadzic. The two of them are not related,

13 despite the fact that they share the last -- the same last name.

14 We preferred Goran Hadzic presiding because then things were

15 dealt with briefly. When Dr. Hadzic presided, such meetings would

16 usually turn into much talk on his own about things that mostly concerned

17 himself and lasted for several hours.

18 Q. Was there a condition that had to be met before a government

19 session would be considered a proper session?

20 A. Yes, of course. We had to have a sufficient number of ministers

21 in order to be able to discuss and decide. We were quarried if we had 50

22 per cent plus 1. Otherwise, say, three people met, they could discuss

23 things, but whatever they decided was not binding on anyone. Also all

24 decisions were voted on. That is why it was important that we were

25 present in sufficient numbers.

Page 11940

1 Q. And how were the government meetings prepared? Can you remember?

2 A. Yes, I can remember. At the very beginning, perhaps for the

3 first 15 or 20 days until things got going, it was a little bit

4 improvised. At the meeting itself somebody would be adding items to the

5 agenda, but very quickly a rule was introduced that each minister who

6 wanted to have an item placed on the agenda would have to notify the rest

7 of us about the topic that he wanted to be placed on the agenda. And

8 then the secretariat would provide this material in a sufficient number

9 of copies for all the ministers so that they could prepare for each item

10 on the agenda. Only exceptionally when we were discussing very difficult

11 life problems could that be added to the agenda during the meeting

12 itself. Otherwise, no.

13 Q. Were there any notes made during the government meetings?

14 A. Yes, of course. There was a record made. The meeting would

15 finish with a recording of everything that happened. There would be a

16 summary of all the conclusions and positions that were important. There

17 would be separate parts on the decision-making and the result of votes,

18 and then this part with these conclusions would be provided to everybody

19 at the beginning of every next meeting.

20 Q. From the point in time when the government was made and for as

21 long as the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem existed,

22 are you able to tell us what the situation was regarding movements around

23 the area, in view of the authority you had as members of the government?

24 A. Well, at some point after the first 15 or 20 days of work, we

25 were given official IDs where our identity was stated. These were

Page 11941

1 official passes signed by Goran Hadzic and with the stamp of the

2 government. However, very often these official IDs or passes were not

3 enough to let us into the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

4 To be more precise, it depended on which side you wanted to enter. If

5 you were entering through Bogojevo to Erdut, which was the entrance we

6 used most frequently, where we were known, we would pass through easily.

7 But if you wanted to enter through Negoslavci from the direction of Sid,

8 you could not enter with that pass. You had to have a clear identifiable

9 permit by the military authorities. This was a piece of paper with your

10 particulars, the vehicle you were using, the direction you were moving

11 in, on the paper and these were permits that were only valid for one day.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, I see the time as well.

13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Yes, correct.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Susa, we will take the second break, 30

15 minutes as well. We'll be back at 12.45.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, could you just tell us briefly about

23 the communications of the government within Slavonia, Baranja, and

24 Western Srem. Let's start with Vukovar, for example. Did the government

25 have any communication with Vukovar in that period, from September,

Page 11942

1 October, November, when the military operations were under way?

2 A. As you yourself say, extensive, very complicated, and serious

3 military operations were under way in Vukovar. We didn't go to Vukovar

4 and we practically had no contact with them other than some indirect

5 information from people who just happened to go there.

6 Q. And are you able to tell us about the government's communications

7 with Western Srem, with that area?

8 A. Until the army broke through towards that area, Sid, Tovarnik,

9 towards Mirkovci, and to the right towards Lovas, Negoslavci, the

10 communication there was very difficult. Let me put it differently. We

11 had good communication with Baranja and along the direction from Bogojevo

12 including Erdut and Dalj. That would be the limited area of our

13 movement.

14 Q. You mentioned the village guards in certain Serbian villages.

15 Are you able to tell us if the government had any communication with

16 those village guards?

17 A. There was communication from time to time. We didn't go there.

18 Certain people from the villages which were encircled would manage to

19 come out under exceptionally difficult circumstances along roads that

20 were known to them, and they would come to Erdut from time to time. They

21 would mainly come because of complex great problems they had in their

22 villages. I'm repeating. There were electricity, water cuts, basic

23 foodstuffs were lacking. There were no medicines. They were fighting

24 epidemics and different illnesses, and that's why they would come, asking

25 for help on these matters.

Page 11943

1 Q. These village guards, was there any kind of unified command for

2 them, if you know?

3 A. As far as we are concerned, no, there wasn't anything like. Then

4 later, Radovan Stojicic, Badza, managed to unify them. Until he came to

5 the area, we were not any kind of command for them. We didn't present

6 ourselves in that way either.

7 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean?

8 A. I'm thinking of the government based in Erdut.

9 Q. Are you able to tell us anything about the relationship of the

10 village guards and the Yugoslav People's Army?

11 A. In the beginning, all of those people living in that area were

12 very relieved when the Yugoslav People's Army came. If we're talking

13 about ordinary people, they felt like that later too. However,

14 individuals from these village guards which imposed themselves as leaders

15 in a particular village slowly came into conflict and in collision with

16 members of the JNA who were giving them certain assignments that they

17 were not willing to carry out. On the other hand, they still had the

18 obligation towards the people who had chosen them by acclamation to lead

19 them in the defence of their villages. When they would appear before

20 these local leaders with requests for help with their living problems,

21 they, as a rule, didn't have any response or answer to these problems.

22 Q. The Assembly and the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

23 Srem, did they make any decisions in relation to these village guards?

24 A. No. As far as I know, they did not.

25 Q. Did the government or the prime minister ever issue any orders to

Page 11944

1 these village guards as to what they were to do?

2 A. This was impossible, in practice and by the letter of the law.

3 These people were villagers. They were mostly people that we knew from

4 before. And in the first stage, that I would even limit to the first

5 year, did not even consider us as somebody to whom they would be

6 answerable to or from whom they could receive orders. These people were

7 our equals, more or less, and we were on the one hand, privileged because

8 we were not on the front lines and we were not in daily danger of losing

9 our lives. The authority that we could exercise in relation to them was

10 never established in the first place and it was not something that was

11 seriously discussed of. We constantly tried by words or personal

12 engagement to help them, to provide essential medications for them, to

13 provide doctors there. There were people with influenza, children's

14 illnesses, infectious diseases which if you didn't control you would have

15 considerably serious circumstances, which was something that did happen

16 in certain villages.

17 Q. Do you know in the Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

18 Srem made any decisions regarding the Territorial Defence of the area and

19 their joining the armed forces of the SFRY?

20 A. That is a good question. Had someone been making decisions

21 regarding the TO, it could only have been the assembly, and as far as I

22 know the assembly did not make any decisions relating to the

23 Territorial Defence.

24 Q. We have a document here that I would like you to look at.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is L19, tab 601.

Page 11945

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with the contents of

2 this decision. I didn't understand your previous question.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Well perhaps my question was unclear. This decision in the lower

5 part of the text and goes onto the following page, are you familiar with

6 that decision of the 10th of October, 1991?

7 A. Yes. When you put the question to me about village guards and

8 the Territorial Defence, I said that we did not make any decisions in the

9 government or the assembly in terms of their formation or work. This is

10 what Radovan Stojicic, Badza, did with his decisions that we didn't have

11 any part in. Once they were conceived and formed in that way, at one

12 point, it became clear that the Territorial Defence, for purposes of

13 efficiency and problems in the field, have to be resubordinated to units

14 of the Yugoslav People's Army. I first saw this concept at the

15 government, and it was placed on the agenda by the late Ilija Koncarevic.

16 I myself and everyone else was in favour of adopting this decision.

17 I need to point out something important here. In relation to the

18 existing provisions of federal laws and decisions of certain federal

19 organs, primarily the decision of the Presidency on establishing or

20 declaring imminent threat of war, this decision seems superfluous.

21 However, under this decision we wanted to make it known that we ourselves

22 were quite aware of the situation in the field and that the

23 Territorial Defence had to be joined to the armed forces of the SFRY

24 without fail.

25 Q. Are you able to tell us what the relationship between the

Page 11946

1 government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and the Yugoslav

2 People's Army was?

3 A. Well, I couldn't define them as good relations. Why? There was

4 a lot of lack of understanding of the other's rights and duties. We

5 tried, at least in the later stage, to assert ourselves as those who made

6 and implemented civilian decisions. The army simply did not wish to

7 accept that, judging by their decisions. When did they address us?

8 When, in certain areas, there were activities that were not classic

9 combat activities, problems would become beyond what they could deal

10 with. Then they would address us, ask us to repair the damage, and then

11 when we would propose to them that we plan together and implement these

12 actions at a later stage, they would remain passive and none of this

13 would ever then be implemented.

14 Q. Do you know if the JNA informed the government of Slavonia,

15 Baranja, and Western Srem about its activities?

16 A. No, not officially. No reports were sent. It may have done in

17 personal, private contacts, or if somebody learned something and then

18 conveyed that knowledge to somebody else. But directly, it was not done.

19 Q. You said that one needed a special permit to go from Sid to

20 Negoslavci and that that special permit was issued to you. Who was it

21 who issued those permits? Where were they obtained?

22 A. In the centre of Sid there was a building, and in that building

23 there was an office manned by two men. Maybe there were more than two

24 but I remember those two because I communicated with them the most.

25 Their names were Grahovac and Filipovic. They issued those permits which

Page 11947

1 were sufficient for one to enter the area, to move about the area, and to

2 return from the area.

3 Q. Did the JNA recognise those permits?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know if Grahovac, whom you have just mentioned, had a

6 position in the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

7 A. No, he never turned up at the government in Erdut, nor did I hear

8 that he was ever engaged on our behalf in any capacity.

9 Q. Did he [Realtime transcript read in error "you"] submit his

10 reports to the government on what he was doing?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Let us just correct something. My question was whether "he"

13 submitted reports and this was misrecorded. Did he submit reports to the

14 government?

15 A. I answered: No, he never submitted any reports to the

16 government.

17 Q. Was he perhaps an assist or a deputy of a minister?

18 A. He did not have a position in the government as far as I know.

19 If he had had a position, I'm sure I would have known.

20 Q. Did the government send any instructions or any such thing to

21 that office in Sid which issued those permits; more specifically, to

22 Mr. Grahovac or Filipovic?

23 A. No -- no, not as far as I know.

24 Q. When the government arrived in Erdut, did it have a security

25 detail, somebody who provided physical security?

Page 11948

1 A. Perhaps not on the first couple of days, and then some people

2 appeared, all of them from Borovo Selo. I believe that I have already

3 mentioned them. I don't know whether there were more than a dozen of

4 them. They were on duty 24/7, two or three of them, and that was good

5 because we had already installed some state-of-the-art equipment that

6 somebody may have stolen. They provided physical security for the

7 building where we were.

8 Q. Who was in charge of organising that part of the tasks, providing

9 security for the government building?

10 A. Nobody appeared officially based on a decision, but we all knew

11 that he was -- that they were Stevo Bogic's friends from Borovo Selo. He

12 was there all the time. They communicated with him.

13 Q. Do you know if Goran Hadzic had his own body-guards?

14 A. I know because I personally knew all those men. One of them was

15 Milenko Japundzic and the late ... I knew him from before the war.

16 What's his -- Ljubo Modrinic. I apologise. He was my karate trainer for

17 a while.

18 Q. The men who provided security for the government building, were

19 they also Goran Hadzic's personal body-guards at the time in 1991 and

20 1992? Was that one and the same service?

21 A. What do you mean, one and the same service? No. Those people

22 who were on the building provided security for the building. When we had

23 drove to Baranja in several cars, whether they came with us, I don't

24 know. I think that I saw them on several occasions in Baranja, but I'm

25 not sure that they were anybody's body-guards. That was just not within

Page 11949

1 their purview.

2 Q. Do you know if Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was a member of the

3 security detail for Goran Hadzic?

4 A. In technical terms, it was impossible. Arkan could not have been

5 Goran's body-guard because Goran often travelled from Erdut to Novi Sad,

6 Belgrade, and some other places to attend political meetings, while

7 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, stayed in Erdut with his unit. Every now and

8 then Arkan would be heard saying that he guarded Goran, but he guarded

9 every single one of us in that case, because he was only 200 metres away

10 from us.

11 Q. Do you know anything about the creation of an organisation known

12 as the Serbian National Security?

13 A. Yes, I do. While I was waiting for a government session to

14 begin, sitting with Ilija Koncarevic and Bogdan Vojnovic, Stevo Bogic

15 approached us, we discussed some other things, and then he touched upon

16 the topic or rather the need to create a service in a foreseeable future

17 that would deal with national security and counter-intelligence. I

18 realised that that was his desire. Ilija Koncarevic asked him whether he

19 would be interested in doing that. He was a vice-president without a

20 portfolio, so he was bored sitting in Erdut all day long. He said, "Yes,

21 I'm thinking about that, but I don't know how to do it, how to go about

22 it." And asked me and I agreed to make a draft of how such a service

23 should look like. And also I -- I agreed to make a draft decision

24 constituting that service and to make a draft of the inception document.

25 I didn't want to go into the details such -- such as the number of

Page 11950

1 personnel.

2 And then Ilija Koncarevic, who was a former member of the

3 military intelligence, told us, "Whatever you're planning, it is the

4 assembly that has to make a decision." He said, "I don't know but what

5 is going to do what he has just promised that he would?" It took me some

6 ten or fifteen days to draw that necessary decision and to draft the form

7 of that organisation and the personnel structure. I gave him some 20

8 pages of densely typed information. And then, after some ten days later,

9 he told me, "You know, I read everything carefully and it looks very

10 complicated. I don't think that I would be able to do that." And all

11 that after I had adapted everything and said that the head of that

12 service did not have to have any particular knowledge, that he could be a

13 political figure.

14 However, those who will be heads of sectors, departments, and

15 managers, I thought that those people should have specific knowledge,

16 specific skills, that they should have a university education, so he told

17 me, "You know what, I can't ensure such people. You don't have such

18 people in your bodies. Where am I supposed to find them?" Such draft or

19 any specific proposal of that institution was never discussed at any of

20 the government session. This simply remained a plan or simply an

21 activity that he wanted to implement but never got around doing it.

22 Q. One more thing. From the moment when Radovan Stojicic, Badza,

23 became the commander of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and

24 Western Srem, what was the relationship between the Territorial Defence

25 and its units and the government? Was there any relationship at all?

Page 11951

1 Were you in communication with each other?

2 A. You mean all the units of the Territorial Defence?

3 Q. Some of the units.

4 A. The contacts that we had with particular units got lost, and when

5 their representative attended a government session, that representative

6 would be exclusively Badza, nobody else.

7 Q. You were appointed a minister of justice and administration in

8 the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. What were the

9 main tasks and duties of your ministry? What was its purview?

10 A. My ministry, first and foremost, had to draft basic documents

11 that served to establish judiciary bodies. It was a complex procedure

12 that we had to implement within a very short space of time. I would like

13 to emphasise Mr. Vojnovic, Stankovic, and Ajdukovic's contribution, and a

14 group of professional and highly professional individuals who belonged to

15 the justice system of Serbia and the Federal Assembly of Yugoslavia.

16 They assisted us in implementing that task in record time. They provided

17 us with their expertise, know-how, and technical capabilities.

18 Q. Do you remember whether the Ministry of Justice prepared the

19 constitutional law of the Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

20 Western Srem?

21 A. Generally speaking, we adopted that as our own document, as our

22 own proposal to the Great National Council. Nobody was a big enough

23 expert to do that. Milos Vojnovic takes most credit for drafting that

24 and I was just his assistant.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please L1. It is tab 589. Second

Page 11952

1 page. It -- the translation does not correspond to the original text.

2 Oh, sorry, third page of English translation, please. Fourth.

3 Fourth page of English translation.

4 Q. [Interpretation] I'll withdraw the question because I don't know

5 the exact page.

6 My next question is this: Did your ministry prepare the Law on

7 the Implementation of the Constitutional Law?

8 A. Yes, we did.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P1808. It is tab 560.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Please look at Article 1 where it says that:

11 "The laws of the Republic of Croatia would no longer be

12 applicable."

13 Why was that? Why were the laws and regulations of Republic of

14 Croatia no longer valid in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

15 A. As I have already stated, after the HDZ won in the multi-party

16 elections, drastic changes affected all spheres of life. One of those

17 spheres was the legal system. The Serbs were removed from the

18 constitution as a constituent people. Many other laws and regulations

19 were no longer acceptable if for no other reason than for the fact that

20 the Serbs had not participated in their passing by the parliament.

21 Therefore, it was necessary to make the legal practice of Croatia

22 ineffective because we were in no position to know what would happen in

23 the future period. In view of everything that was going on in Croatia at

24 the moment, this was indispensable. This was absolutely necessary,

25 unfortunately.

Page 11953

1 Q. And can you now please look at Article 3 of the same law.

2 A. I can see it. I've read it.

3 Q. It says here:

4 "As of the day when the constitutional law comes into effect on

5 the territory of the Serb region, all governmental bodies, bodies of

6 local self-government, and other bodies and organisations of the

7 Republic of Croatia shall terminate their work."

8 At that time, were there any organs of the Republic of Croatia in

9 that territory at the moment when this law was passed?

10 A. A few months before that, they had withdrawn from the territory.

11 There were no longer any bodies of the Republic of Croatia in place.

12 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice prepare and draft laws on ministries?

13 A. Yes. The Law on the Government, the Law on The Secretariat, all

14 that was prepared by the Ministry of Justice.

15 Q. According to the Law on the Government that you mentioned, can

16 you tell us who elected the prime minister and members of the government?

17 A. I don't have the text before me, but they were elected by the

18 Grand National Assembly. They were all elected separately, although the

19 ministers were elected pursuant to a proposal made by the prime minister

20 designate.

21 Q. Who were the ministers answerable to?

22 A. To the body that elected them, which was the National Assembly.

23 Hence, the prime minister's remit was made narrower, and I will explain

24 why.

25 None of the bodies had been elected directly at elections, which

Page 11954

1 was considered a shortcoming. That is why the prime minister could not

2 receive the same authority that they otherwise have in different systems

3 when such results are achieved in a different way.

4 Q. Who could remove a government member, including the

5 prime minister?

6 A. The Grand National Assembly could. If Goran Hadzic, as the

7 prime minister, was dissatisfied with the work of a minister, he could

8 not have them removed. He could only submit a report to the

9 Grand National Assembly explaining his position, and then the Assembly,

10 by virtue of its own decision, would perhaps have the minister removed.

11 Q. Could the Grand National Assembly reject such a proposal?

12 A. Of course it could.

13 Q. Let's look at L27, tab 608, which is the Law on the Government.

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Article 8, please.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still don't have Article 8.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is on the next page in the

17 original.

18 Q. There it is.

19 A. I see it.

20 Q. Please look at paragraph 2 of Article 8. Please explain this

21 provision under which, "A member of the government shall be responsible

22 to the prime minister for representing and implementing the views of the

23 government as well as for discharging the duties assigned or entrusted to

24 him by the prime minister."

25 A. I think the second paragraph of article 2 is clear. Each one of

Page 11955

1 us in the course of our work is answerable to the prime minister. We

2 were duty-bound to implement everything that was put forth by the

3 government as its joint position. However, there were some tasks that do

4 not fall within the narrow limit or framework of each minister, but such

5 a framework could be issued by the prime minister. If a government

6 member did not meet his or her obligation, they could not be removed by

7 the prime minister, but it is sufficient grounds to initiate a removal

8 procedure before the Grand National Assembly.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Article 17, please.

10 Q. Here, we see that the government shall supervise the work of

11 ministries and other organisations. Did the government carry out such

12 supervision over the work of the ministries?

13 A. This was a general position envisaged for some better happier

14 times when many professional staff were expected to work as part of the

15 government. This was not the case at the time. Who could control and

16 supervise the work of my ministry at the time? It was simply not a part

17 of the times. It was not applied. It was not done. The ministers did

18 submit periodic quarterly, semi-annually, and annually reports to the

19 government which they drafted based on the specific issues for each of

20 the ministries, and then these reports were adopted at assembly sessions.

21 Q. When you say periodic reporting, as far as I know, the government

22 lasted for only five months.

23 A. Yes. So this was in principle. I think I submitted one joint

24 report. Bogdan Vojnovic did the same on the state of finance. He did it

25 rather more often than me. But as for others, I don't remember. In any

Page 11956

1 case, no procedure of adoption or approval was undertaken that would be

2 followed by a pass or fail mark for each of the ministries. It was

3 simply a matter of need in order to have our colleagues informed of the

4 problems we encounter and the solutions we come up with.

5 Q. Did ministers at sessions report on the work of their ministries;

6 i.e., what was being done between two government sessions?

7 A. Well, of course, what else would be on the agenda? That is what

8 we discussed. Some people were criticised because of the fact that they

9 mainly reported orally, something that could not be monitored or

10 followed. And at some point, they were made to put their reports in

11 writing. So people would just come and start discussing a problem they

12 have and ways to deal with it, but then it creates a problem with the

13 secretariat because there's no specific decision, and then the

14 secretariat had to draft it themselves. Later on, we pursued the policy

15 of submitting everything in writing.

16 Q. Do you know whether the Ministry of the Judiciary drafted a law

17 on measures in case of states of emergency?

18 A. No, I don't think we worked on that.

19 Q. Do you know whether there ever was a state of emergency in the

20 SBWS?

21 A. I know there was a proposal drafted and presented by

22 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic. It had to do with some obligations to carry out

23 farming work which was a significant issue. It did reach the assembly

24 but it was not discussed at a session. No state of emergency was ever

25 declared.

Page 11957

1 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice prepare a decision on the work and

2 manner of work of municipal executive councils?

3 A. Yes, it was part of our -- of its basic remit.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, L53. It is tab 624.

5 Q. [Interpretation] We see the heading that the date was the 3rd of

6 December, 1991. Was this decision implemented as proposed in the text?

7 A. Yes, partially, where it could have been implemented. There was

8 still areas where we couldn't implement all that was contained in the

9 decision.

10 In any case, it was implemented partially. We appointed

11 presidents of executive councils, and the executive councils then chose

12 their own teams and notified us. We couldn't object to their choice

13 because they chose the people they wanted to work with. The problems

14 they had were significant, and, thus, we could not put forth any serious

15 objections.

16 Could the text be zoomed in, please. Otherwise I can't see.

17 Q. On the 3rd of December, 1991, or around that time, how did

18 civilian authorities in the SBWS function?

19 A. Civilian authorities did not function fully because there was a

20 constant overlap of competencies between us and the executive councils

21 and the army in the field that had its own officers in charge of civilian

22 affairs. Hence, civilian authorities always collided with the military

23 in terms of who would be doing what. It usually ended up by the army

24 offering its own interpretation, requesting that they give express

25 approval. They may have had a legal basis, according to some federal

Page 11958

1 regulation, but we hoped for better co-operation and more sensitivity for

2 the situation in the field. However, it was not the case.

3 Or let me be more precise. At this point in time, around

4 December 3, 1991, in a number of areas, there was military rule. By

5 definition, it poses significant problems for the functioning of

6 executive councils.

7 Q. Since there was military rule there, as you say, why was this

8 decision issued in the first place, trying to establish civilian

9 authorities?

10 A. If one looks only at what is implementable at the time, you would

11 never have adequate laws. We had to draft certain laws and measures for

12 a period when such things would see the light of day.

13 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice prepare a Law on Temporary

14 Territorial Organisation of the SBWS and Temporary Local Self-Governance?

15 A. Yes, it was part of our basic remit.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, it is L1, page 29 to 33,

17 tab 589.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is English page 84. Sorry.

20 Q. [Interpretation] You can see the date of this law.

21 A. Yes, the 22nd of November, 1991.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us go on to the next page.

23 The next page, please.

24 Q. We see here a list of municipalities and settlements. Do you

25 recall how many municipalities were established under the law?

Page 11959

1 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps five or six. Well, there were as

2 many as you can see in the document.

3 Q. As for the system those five or six municipalities were organised

4 in, was it implemented in the field?

5 A. Not as stipulated in the law. Because the temporary seat of

6 Vinkovci municipality was in Mirkovci and for Osijek it was Tenja. But

7 later on their names were changed by establishing the municipality of

8 Mirkovci and of Tenja. In Article 10, there is a political

9 presupposition, so to speak, reflecting our hope that in some future time

10 we would also be able to include the towns of Vinkovci and Osijek in our

11 territory. But at the moment of drafting this law already, we knew it

12 was way too ambitious to expect. However, there was a school of thought

13 or a number of people who insisted on it so that it reflects our wish.

14 However, we quickly renamed them into the municipality of Mirkovci and

15 the municipality of Tenja with the two towns being their seats.

16 Q. Before this law was passed, was there another law or regulation

17 that dealt with temporary territorial organisation and temporary local

18 self-governance?

19 A. Not as far as I know.

20 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice prepare the Law on The Interior?

21 A. No. That law had been created in Belgrade and handed over to

22 Mr. Bogunovic. If I recall well, it was presented by Sinisa Puskar on

23 behalf of the ministry. I know it was drafted in Belgrade. I know so

24 because later on Mr. Puskar joined my ministry.

25 Q. As for the police force in SBWS, who commanded them? The police

Page 11960

1 force, that is.

2 A. They were under the command of a centre in Serbia. There was a

3 large number of policemen who got work there. I myself was one of those

4 people. And then they were transferred to different commands. But they

5 were the ones who paid their salaries, provide their social benefits,

6 their pension, and they were just temporarily deployed in Slavonia,

7 Baranja, and Western Srem territory.

8 Q. Can you be a little more clear in your definition? Could you

9 tell us in English what it means to be transferred to a different

10 command, "otkomanda" [phoen], what does that mean that the policemen were

11 sent to a different command?

12 A. In the area of your home organ, you are registered as an

13 authorised person, and then are you signed out in that place, you are

14 transferred to a different location where you report to a different

15 superior who will assign you tasks and activities. That does not mean

16 that you lose your basic general status in the place where you began your

17 employment. The fact that you are in a different area is a temporary

18 matter.

19 Q. So that means that a policeman who is in the Serbian MUP, for

20 example, would be transferred to the MUP of Slavonia, Baranja, and

21 Western Srem, for example?

22 A. But he is not dismissed. At any point, he can be returned to

23 Sombor, Novi Sad, Belgrade or to the place where he was originally from.

24 Q. Are you able to tell us who decides whether a person would be

25 sent to Slavonia, Baranja, or Western Srem, or whether they would be sent

Page 11961

1 back? Does the government Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem have any

2 say in that?

3 A. No. This is something that his police station or the city

4 secretariat decides, depending on the case. In some cases, the agreement

5 of the person was sought. It was not obligatory but some of them did

6 want to return to the area where they were from originally by birth.

7 Q. The justice ministry --

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I would like to ask a clarifying

9 question to the witness about the topic you touched upon.

10 Your question was:

11 "As for the police force in SBWS, who commanded them? The police

12 force, that is."

13 And the witness answered:

14 "They were under the command of a centre in Serbia. There was a

15 large number of policemen who got work there."

16 And then, and this is what puzzles me a little bit:

17 "I myself was one of those people."

18 Do we have a translation problem or is that what the witness said

19 and wanted to say?

20 Mr. Witness, do you understand?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I understand. Thank

22 you for that warning.

23 I said earlier that before I game to Slavonia, Baranja, and

24 Western Srem, I started to work at the city secretariat of the interior

25 in Novi Sad as an independent inspector in the economic crimes

Page 11962

1 department. I received my certificate about my temporary transfer to

2 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and I was not given any more

3 specific duties.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And when was that? Could you give us a

5 time-frame.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can tell you that it was in

7 late August 1991.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic. Sorry for the interruption.

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. The justice ministry, did it prepare a decree on the temporary

12 protection of the property of economic and private subjects of SBWS

13 outside of the territory?

14 A. Yes, together with two other ministries, the Ministry of Finances

15 and Ministry for the War Time Economy. I would say that the largest

16 contribution was given by the finance ministry, by Mr. Bogdan

17 Trifunovic [as interpreted], and then we made sure that then this was

18 formed as a decision the way it should be.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the very

20 last words of the question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bogdan Vojnovic, not

22 Bogdan Trifunovic.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: My question was complete actually. Okay.

24 May we see, please, L18. It is tab 600.

25 Q. [Interpretation] This is the decree that we referred to. Could

Page 11963

1 you please look at Article 3.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's on the following page of the English

3 translation.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking at it.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And can you see here that special protection is planned. Could

7 you explain to us a little more about this "special protection of

8 property."

9 A. I have to tell that you the ownership structure in the former

10 Yugoslavia, including Croatia, was mostly state-owned property. Private

11 property had a very small proportion in the overall property categories.

12 So when we were looking at certain forms of property ownership, very

13 valuable property such as buildings, institutions, agricultural lands,

14 banks, it was logical and normal for us to take over that property and to

15 protect it because there was an objective danger that this property would

16 be subject to misuse and that it would change the ownership structure in

17 a way that would not be very specific and would become private in an

18 impermissible way. So this was given special status. It became regional

19 property which had to be recorded precisely and had to be protected.

20 Above all, it had to be protected.

21 Q. I think you've given a partial answer to my next question

22 already, but still I will put the question to you.

23 The justice ministry, did it prepare a decision on the temporary

24 transfer of property of the Republic of Croatia, socially owned property,

25 to the ownership of the SBWS?

Page 11964

1 A. Yes. I made a mistake when interpreting the previous decree.

2 There are two decrees. Basically they boil down to the same thing. The

3 first decree refers to property which is outside of the territory area.

4 What does that mean? Of course, all property that was -- belonged to the

5 Republic of Croatia originally was not located only in that area, SBWS.

6 There was a lot of property of SBWS that was in Vojvodina, Serbia, inner

7 Serbia, and Montenegro. So the first decree covers the property which

8 was outside of the area which we also were taking over and placing under

9 our protection. Specifically, we had a large problem with the Borovo

10 chain stores. There were many of them in Serbia but we already knew that

11 certain workers had tried to take that and present it as their own. This

12 is something that had to be protected. There were also some holiday

13 resorts in Montenegro and so on. Another part of the property which was

14 in the area itself for the same reason was included under the decree and

15 placed under our protection.

16 Q. And this decision on the temporary transfer of property, this is

17 tab 623, L52, are you able to tell us why it says that this is a

18 temporary transfer of ownership?

19 A. Well, it's clear you could not definitely establish ownership.

20 So something that was not subject to a broader interpretation and

21 something that would not be well accepted by all and something -- well,

22 we knew that in some future point in time the war would end, and then

23 everybody would have to settle accounts with everybody else. Croatia

24 would then say that, based on their investments, various forms of

25 investments, including international loans, we owed them money for things

Page 11965

1 that we had taken over. What we had taken over at that point in time was

2 not definitely ours. It was temporarily placed under our protection.

3 When all the problems were definitely resolved when relations would

4 normalise, then we would proceed to establish rightful ownership.

5 Q. One more question relating to property regulations. Did your

6 ministry prepare a decree on the temporary protection of abandoned

7 property?

8 A. Yes. That segment includes two types of property: Socially

9 owned and private property. Other than socially owned property, there

10 are quite valuable pieces of private property. Houses, land, summer

11 house, movable and immovable property. We did not want to place those

12 things -- we did not want to have those things subject to abuse or

13 misuse.

14 Q. Abandoned property, are you able to tell us whether the decree

15 could be implemented and to what degree could it have been implemented by

16 the government?

17 A. I'm thinking of courts. Perhaps we'll come to that and be able

18 to additionally protect this property by that way. Unfortunately, we did

19 not manage to implement this. For a number of reasons. For -- one of

20 them is that there was lot of misuses in the field by individuals prone

21 to crimes. It is particularly regrettable that we had a situation in

22 which the JNA considered all property as war-booty and took a lot of that

23 property out from the territory to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

24 Personally, I had a lot of problems about this later.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May which see, please, L37. It is tab 615.

Page 11966

1 Q. [Interpretation] This is the decree that we referred to. What I

2 would like to know now is -- well, the procedure is laid down here in

3 these articles, from Article 1 onwards, the manner in which the property

4 would be protected. What I would like to know is did other organs - you

5 mentioned the JNA - that came there and practically had the power in the

6 field, did they act in accordance with the decree and did they protect

7 the property accordingly?

8 A. I'm afraid that they did not. I've already said something about

9 that.

10 Q. And this property, was it made available to others for use? Was

11 it sold? Was it given to somebody? I'm talking about the government of

12 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

13 A. I understand your question. The ownership structure did not

14 change in one single instance. Of course, property was given for

15 temporary use. Newly formed work organisation and even private subject

16 citizens were able, under specially set rules, get this property, be able

17 to use it, care for it, make the required investments, and in the case of

18 some profit they could have had earnings from it. But in essence, nobody

19 could become an owner of something that they did not own before the war

20 broke out.

21 Q. Was the property given for others so that they could use it?

22 A. Yes, I've already said that.

23 Q. Were any records kept of that?

24 A. Yes, records were kept. Quite proper records.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please 1D1212. It is tab 258.

Page 11967

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, could you repeat that. You were

2 overlapping.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D1212, tab 258.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I think that you've already seen this document. I'd like to know

7 if this is one of the examples of these records. The document has a

8 number of pages.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the next

10 page.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've seen all of that.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is this one of the documents, a record of things that were being

14 given for the temporary use?

15 A. Yes. These are drafts that were retyped. The contents are

16 identical but they were typed and looked a little bit more orderly. This

17 is property given to physical entities. This is agricultural land that

18 had to be cultivated in any case, both for the benefit of the people who

19 had its temporary use and also due to the fact that land that was not

20 regularly cultivated could be damaged. It would be covered by weeds and

21 it would deteriorate, so then would you need a few years of work in order

22 to get it back into a good workable condition.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this document, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D1212 will be Exhibit D217.

Page 11968

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And I see the time, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic. Thank you.

4 Mr. Susa, this is the end of the hearing today. You will be

5 expected to be back at 9.00 tomorrow morning. In the meantime, you

6 continue to be a witness and to be under oath, and that has two

7 particular implications. The first one is that you can't discuss your

8 testimony with anybody. Not someone at -- on the street, in the hotel.

9 Not even your family members. And the second implication is that you

10 can't have contact at all with any of the parties.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I understand.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

18 October, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.