1 Monday, 8 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. May I ask the
6 registrar to call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 May I have appearances for the Defence -- sorry, Prosecution
12 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
13 counsel. For the Prosecution, David Re and Ekkehard Withopf with
14 Kimberly Fleming as the case manager.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Appearances for the Defence.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I
18 am Edina Residovic with Stephane Bourgon for Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
20 For Mr. Kubura, Mr. Rodney Dixon, Mr. Ibrisimovic. And Mr. Mulalic, our
21 legal assistant.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 We have received an application from the Office of the Prosecutor
24 for protection measures. We, therefore, order a closed session for the
25 complete protection of the witness.
1 May I ask the registrar to take the necessary steps.
2 [Closed session]
12 Pages 653 to 658 redacted, closed session
21 [Open session]
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are again in
24 public session. And the voice of the witness should now be distorted, as
25 well as his image.
1 Witness, we shall address you with the pseudonym BA, because of
2 the protective measures granted you. Will you now please read the solemn
3 declaration. The usher is giving you.
4 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Try again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems there is a problem
9 with the microphone.
10 May I ask the witness, can you hear the interpretation? He does.
11 It seems to be a technical problem with the microphone.
12 Madam Registrar, could we change the microphone or do something?
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have to wait for a technical
15 assistant who will check the microphone.
16 All right. Witness BA, will you please read again the text of
17 the declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: WITNESS BA
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You can sit down.
23 So the Prosecution may begin their examination of this witness.
24 Examined by Mr. Re:
25 Q. Witness BA, I'm going to refer to you throughout your
1 examination-in-chief as Witness BA, and we will move into private session
2 for some parts of your evidence, those parts which may identify you.
3 Witness BA, you were a member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade
4 of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH in 1992, 1993 --
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Counsel, you just told us
6 that we will have to go into private session occasionally. You will
7 indicate, I hope, the moments when we have to do so.
8 MR. RE: I certainly will, Your Honour. And I will very shortly
9 do so, at the beginning of the testimony.
10 Q. Witness WB, you were a member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade
11 of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH in 1992/1993, 1993 and 1994; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Leading question.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
16 You are objecting and you claim that this is a leading question.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me remind you
19 only that the Prosecution has just asked him whether he had been a member
20 of the 7th Brigade. I really don't think that it is a leading question.
21 He was at the time either a civilian or as a soldier, and he is being
22 asked whether he was a soldier and whether he was a member of the 7th
24 MR. RE:
25 Q. Witness BA, I'm now going to ask you - don't answer the question
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 yet - about the circumstances of your joining the 7th Muslim Mountain
3 MR. RE: But could we move into private session for that part of
4 his testimony, please, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Madam Registrar, let us now go into private session.
7 [Private session]
12 Page 664 redacted, private session
12 Page 665 redacted, private session
12 Page 666 redacted, private session
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Witness BA, can you see a photograph on the screen in front of
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you identify that as a photograph of the Zenica Music School?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this was a leading
25 question, quite obviously.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution
2 should have phrased the question by asking the witness whether he
3 recognised the photograph and by asking the witness to tell us what he
4 could tell on the basis of the photograph.
5 Let's continue, though.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. The photograph has a -- a number, 01247564, with the Prosecution
8 Exhibit number P1306.84. It's in Sanction. Can the photograph be marked
9 for identification for the moment in Sanction and we will provide the
10 Trial Chamber with copies of it later.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, the Defence
12 doesn't have any objections to tendering this photograph into evidence?
13 No objections?
14 Could you give me a definitive number for this photograph then.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P7.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Marked for identification.
18 MR. RE: I note the registrar said marked for identification. I
19 understood Your Honours to be accepting the tender of that photograph.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P7, not marked for identification.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Witness BA, whereabouts were you based or was your unit based in
23 the Music School -- or as depicted on the photograph P7 on the screen in
24 front of you?
25 A. It was based in the premises of this building.
1 Q. Witness BA, you can see on the photograph which is in front of
2 you, on the right-hand side it has three levels, four windows on the
3 bottom floor, four windows on the middle floor, and some smaller ones on
4 the top floor. All I want to know is physically where in the building
5 was your unit based until January 1993.
6 A. I can't remember quite clearly whether it was based on the first
7 floor or the attic.
8 Q. I want you to tell us how the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was
9 using that building when you were based there, up until January 1993.
10 A. It was used by the soldiers as a place where they would spend
11 time while they were in the unit. That was the main purpose for which it
12 was used.
13 Q. Witness BA, were you familiar with the various floors in the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you familiar with the basement of the building?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade using the basement for
19 up until January 1993?
20 A. It was used as a warehouse.
21 Q. What was the brigade storing in the warehouse?
22 A. Mainly the surplus of weapons and foodstuff for the needs of the
24 Q. I'm now going to show you a photograph which again will come up
25 on the screen in front of you. What can you tell me about the photograph
1 which bears the description 0124-7575, Prosecution number P1306.29?
2 A. The basement of the Music School, which is where we had
4 MR. RE: May that photograph likewise be tendered into evidence
5 through Sanction, and the Prosecution will provide the Trial Chamber with
6 copies later?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. There are no
8 objections from the Defence. Could we have a number for the exhibit.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the number will be P8.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. Later in your evidence, Witness BA, I will be asking you about
13 the attack on the village of Dusina. Where was your unit based at the
14 time of the attack on Dusina? Was it still based in the Music School or
15 was it based somewhere else?
16 A. It was based in the Music School.
17 Q. Where did your unit go -- I'm sorry. Until when was your unit
18 based in the Music School?
19 A. I can't remember the exact date, but when we returned from Dusina
20 we returned to Bilmiste.
21 Q. You said you returned to Bilmiste. What is -- what is and where
22 is Bilmiste, Witness BA?
23 A. Bilmiste was an educational centre.
24 Q. By that do you mean school?
25 A. There were three schools there before the war.
1 Q. When your unit moved there, were there any other units already
3 A. No.
4 Q. Whereabouts is Bilmiste?
5 A. I don't understand the question.
6 Q. Was it in -- was Zenica -- it in Zenica? Sorry. Is Bilmiste,
7 the school or the educational facility, in Zenica?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I want to show you a map, Witness BA. It's a map of the town of
10 Zenica headed "Series M903, sheet Zenica, addition 1 GSGS."
11 MR. RE: And I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm going to have to do
12 this one the old-fashioned way and have the witness actually mark on a
13 paper copy.
14 Q. What I want you to mark on the map with a round circle and a "1"
15 is where Bilmiste is. I want you to mark with a "2" where the Zenica
16 Music School is. And I want you to mark with a "3" where the 3rd Corps
17 headquarters was in 1993.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] On our screens we can see a -- a
20 map of the town of Zenica, which contains three circles, which refer to
21 the three questions put by the Prosecution. I want to know whether this
22 is what the witness can see or is the witness marking the location of
23 certain sites according to his own memory.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, when you marked
25 the map with the numbers "1", 2", "3", did you do this directly on the
1 basis of the big map or did you do it on the small map on the screen?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only on this map here.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He used -- he marked the map
4 with these numbers without looking at the screen; that's what he has just
5 told us. Very well.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I want to know whether the
7 markings were the same on the map that he was looking at. That's all I
8 am interested in.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's necessary to know what he
11 has marked.
12 Could you bring the big map to me, please. The Trial Chamber
13 will check.
14 We have a big map here, and I can see that where it says
15 "cemetery," it's been marked with number "1." At the site where it says
16 "building 398 metres," it's been marked with number "2." And the number
17 "3" is at the top of the map. We have a service in black. So perhaps he
18 should tell us --
19 Witness, number 1 -- you used number "1" to mark which site?
20 Could you show him the map.
21 So number "1" refers to what exactly?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the locality where the school
23 is, corresponds to the site of the school.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about number "2"?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the site of the music school.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So number 2 refers to the music
3 And what about number 3?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the 3rd Corps command.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number 3 marks the 3rd Corps
6 command. Very well.
7 Did you want to tender this map into evidence?
8 MR. RE: Yes. Could I just have a look at what the witness has
9 marked on it first, please, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please show it to the Defence.
11 And could you show it to the accused as well. They haven't seen
12 the map on their screens.
13 Please continue. So you want to tender this map into evidence,
14 Mr. Re?
15 Could we have a number for the map.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P9.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P9.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. You've told us about the 2nd Battalion, Witness BA. Where was
20 the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade based from January
22 A. In Kakanj.
23 Q. Whereabouts in Kakanj?
24 A. In the Sretno Motel.
25 Q. I want to show you a photograph, which will be on your screen.
1 Can you please look at the photograph on the screen and tell Their
2 Honours whether you can identify it and what it is.
3 A. Yes. It's the Sretno Hotel.
4 Q. And whereabouts is it located in Kakanj?
5 A. It's by the motorway, at the entrance to Kakanj.
6 Q. Where does that motorway go in either direction?
7 A. It's the Zenica-Sarajevo motorway.
8 MR. RE: I tender that one too into evidence through Sanction, to
9 provide the registry and the Trial Chamber with a copy of it later.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P10.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Madam Registrar, the number is P10. P10.
13 However, I would like to note, with regard to tendering this into
14 evidence, it's a hotel but sometimes it is referred to as a motel. It's
15 not the same thing, a motel and a hotel; these are quite different
16 things. And I think that in the indictment it says the "Sretno Motel,"
17 but we can see quite clearly that it is a hotel and not a motel.
18 Please continue.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Witness BA, when you were in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, did
21 you ever have any -- sorry, did you ever go into the Motel or Hotel
22 Sretno when the 1st Battalion was using it?
23 A. No, I didn't.
24 Q. You've told me about the 1st Battalion and the 2nd Battalion.
25 Now, what about the 3rd Battalion? Where was it based?
1 A. The 3rd Battalion was based in bell mist -- Bilmiste.
2 Q. Who was the commander of your battalion in 1993, from the
3 beginning of 1993?
4 A. I can't remember his exact name. I think it was Commander Taran.
5 Q. I want you to tell Their Honours about the structure of the 7th
6 Muslim Mountain Brigade from January 1993. There were three Battalions:
7 The 1st, the 2nd, and the 3rd. What other units were there in the
9 A. At the time, the brigade was still being formed. Not a single
10 unit had been officially formed. Its formation had not officially been
11 completed. They were still in the process of completion.
12 Q. When do you consider it was fully formed; that is, the three
13 brigades were formed?
14 A. At the end of 1994.
15 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the way the soldiers
16 in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade were paid. What were your wages per
18 A. There were no pays before the formation -- when the army was
19 being formed. Later, when the corps started issuing salaries, we
20 received about 80 marks, something like that.
21 Q. What were the other soldiers in the ABiH being paid in this
23 A. It depended on the manoeuvre capacities of the units.
24 Q. What was the difference between your brigade and the other
25 brigades in -- in relation to the manoeuvre capacities of the units and
1 what they were being paid?
2 A. For the most part, all manoeuvring sabotage units had higher pay
3 than those that only held the lines.
4 Q. The wages of your unit were 80 Deutschemarks -- I'm sorry. You
5 said your wages -- the wages of your unit were something like 80 marks a
6 month. What were the wages of the other units, the non-manoeuvring
8 A. They were paid 40 Deutschemark, as far as I know.
9 Q. How was the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade equipped? Who supplied
10 it with equipment, arms, supplies, uniforms, and so on?
11 A. It was equipped better than other units.
12 Q. How do you know that?
13 A. In terms of the appearance of our soldiers as compared to members
14 of other units.
15 Q. You said it was better equipped than the other units. Who was
16 supplying the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade? Where was it getting its
17 armed, equipment, supplies and so on, from?
18 A. I don't know exactly where it received them from.
19 Q. Why do you say it was better equipped than the other units?
20 A. I'm saying that because it was better equipped.
21 Q. What was the reason for it being better equipped than the other
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. What was the uniform of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
25 A. They wore camouflage uniforms, just as every other member.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
2 sentence. The noise is still there.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. I think we missed the last part of your sentence. The
5 interpreter heard you say "they wore camouflage uniforms, just as every
6 other member." Did you say something else after that?
7 A. No. That was all.
8 Q. How did the uniforms the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade wore compare
9 to that of other units and brigades within the ABiH 3rd Corps?
10 A. The logistics always supplied new uniforms, so every new member
11 would get a uniform. In some units, people wore used uniforms.
12 Q. What sort of training did the 3rd -- sorry, the 7th Muslim
13 Mountain Brigade give its soldiers?
14 Can I -- I'll withdraw that question. I'll start with another
15 question. The 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was called a Muslim Mountain
16 Brigade. What was the difference between it and other brigades in the
17 ABiH 3rd Corps?
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We seem to have a microphone
19 problem again.
20 Did you hear the question that was asked?
21 Would the usher be so kind as to check the microphone.
22 Very well. The Prosecution may continue. The witness now hears.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. The 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was called a Muslim Mountain
25 Brigade. What was the difference between it and other brigades in the
1 ABiH 3rd Corps?
2 A. It was made up only of Muslims, while other units comprised also
3 Croats and Serbs.
4 Q. Why was this particular brigade composed only of Muslims?
5 A. Because it was called the 7th Muslim Brigade.
6 Q. What was the military reason for having a separate brigade
7 composed only of Muslims?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Residovic.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness is now
10 being asked for his opinion, and I believe that a regular witness should
11 not dispense opinions of the kind that the Prosecution is asking at this
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence counsel
14 believe that this is a question of view, of opinion. So will you please
15 rephrase your question. But the Chamber reserves the right to stop such
16 questions in the future but -- or to allow them, but right now you are
17 being asked to rephrase.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Witness BA, you gave evidence about when and how you joined the
20 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Were you ever told or did you ever ask
21 anyone who had the knowledge or the authority to tell you why, if indeed
22 -- I'm sorry, ask if there was a military reason for there being a
23 brigade composed entirely of Muslims? And if so, what the answer was?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, yes.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not only is an opinion being
1 asked now. The Prosecutor wants the witness to give us hearsay, which is
2 not allowed.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This objection is sustained.
4 You can continue.
5 MR. RE: Mrs. Residovic just said hearsay isn't allowed. If I
6 could direct Your Honours to Rule -- just give me one moment -- Rule 89.
7 I can't pin at this particular -- at this moment -- I'm sorry, I can't
8 direct Your Honours to any jurisprudence or decisions of the Appeals or
9 Trial Chambers at the moment as I stand here, but hearsay is certainly
10 allowed in this Tribunal. The question is the probative value and the
11 weight that the Trial Chamber gives it when assessing the evidence. So
12 what my learned friend has put to Your Honours is simply incorrect, about
13 hearsay not being allowed.
14 I can certainly locate the cases, but I just can't do it as I
15 stand here, and provide them to Your Honours later.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber will
17 resolve this by asking a question of the witness, because the Trial
18 Chamber has the right to do so at any moment.
19 So, Witness BA, could you please tell us, in your view were there
20 any other brigades that were Muslim brigades or Muslim units within your
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the witness
24 tells us he didn't know if there were any other such units similar to
25 that 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. To his knowledge -- or rather, he has
1 no knowledge of the structure within his corps.
2 Another question to the witness: Apart from your comrades who
3 fought with you in that Muslim brigade, you have no knowledge of other
4 units; is that what you said?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] His answer is, therefore that,
7 he has no knowledge whatsoever about the structure of the corps, apart
8 from the brigade where he fought.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Witness BA, I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the badges
11 worn by the soldiers in the various 3rd Corps units and, of course, your
12 own brigade.
13 A. For the most part, all members wore the emblems of the 3rd Corps.
14 Q. Can you describe the emblem of the 3rd Corps to the Trial
16 A. On a patch of cloth initials of the 3rd Corps were inscribed,
17 together with the initials of the state.
18 Q. What was the badge of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
19 A. We had a badge of the 3rd Corps, and in addition to that there
20 was lettering "7th Muslim."
21 Q. You just said that your unit had both a 7th Muslim lettering and
22 the 3rd Corps initials -- or emblem, I'm sorry. Did each brigade or unit
23 have its own badge?
24 A. Some units had their own emblems.
25 Q. I want you to have a look at Exhibit P4, which will come up on
1 the screen in front of you.
2 Witness BA, can you see 24 representations with numbers on the
3 screen in front of you in Sanction?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what number 12 is.
6 A. That's the army emblem.
7 Q. Did the members of your brigade wear that emblem?
8 A. Some did.
9 Q. When you say "some," can you give the Trial Chamber a rough
10 percentage of those who did?
11 A. I couldn't answer that question.
12 Q. Did you yourself wear number 12 on your uniform?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. Did you wear any other badges?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many?
17 A. Two.
18 Q. Are any of those two depicted on Exhibit 4 -- sorry, P4, in front
19 of you?
20 A. Both of them can be seen.
21 Q. What numbers are those, please?
22 A. 9 and 12.
23 Q. What precisely is number 9?
24 A. That's the badge -- sorry, the patch of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
25 Q. Did all soldiers in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade wear that
2 A. Not all.
3 Q. What did those who didn't wear that badge wear?
4 A. Some simply didn't wear patches, because there weren't enough of
5 them to go round.
6 Q. Can you please have a look at badge number 7. Can you tell the
7 Trial Chamber what badge number 7 is and whether it relates to badge
8 number 12.
9 A. What they have in common is the coat of arms and the lilies, and
10 the rest ...
11 Q. Do you know what badge number 7 is, Witness BA?
12 A. I couldn't answer that question precisely.
13 Q. I want to direct your attention to badge number 1. What is badge
14 number 1?
15 A. That is the patch of the Muslim armed forces.
16 Q. What were the Muslim armed forces, Witness BA?
17 A. I could not answer this precisely.
18 Q. You say you can't answer it precisely, but you're able to tell us
19 that it is the badge of the Muslim armed forces. How do you know that it
20 is the badge of the Muslim amend forces?
21 A. It is written around the lower edge, "Muslim armed forces."
22 Q. Did you know of someone called Mahmut Efendija Karalic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was he in 1992? What position did he hold?
25 A. I don't know what exactly his position was.
1 Q. What did you know of him at that time, 1992/1993?
2 A. I knew that he was a hodza and that he used to be a professor at
3 the Sarajevo University.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the entirety of
5 this answer. There may be something missing. The noise is still
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Witness BA, there may have been a slight difficulty of
9 interpretation of your last answer. I don't know. Did you say "I knew
10 that he was a hodza and that he used to be a professor at the Sarajevo
11 University," or did you add something to that?
12 A. I said he was a hodza and a professor in the Sarajevo Muslim
13 school, Medresa.
14 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber -- sorry. Can you please give the
15 Trial Chamber an explanation of what a hodza is.
16 A. Hodza is a spiritual leader of a community.
17 Q. Did you know of a person called Asim Suvalic in about 1992 to
19 A. Only the name is familiar.
20 Q. How is the name familiar to you?
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence may speak.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot exactly
23 call these questions formally leading, but the Prosecutor always mentions
24 a name that had not been previously referred to by the witness. He first
25 gives a name and then only asks if the witness knows anything about the
1 person. So I think that, essentially, these are leading questions.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber is of the
3 view that the question is indeed leading because you are asking questions
4 about the person named Suvalic in this case. I think it would be better
5 to rephrase the question; to ask, for instance, what "hodza" means and
6 whether he knew anyone who held that position. That is one of the ways
7 in which this question could have been formulated. Of course, the
8 Defence's job is to protect the interests of the accused and to take care
9 that no leading questions are asked of witnesses. This is a question of
11 Would you be so kind as to rephrase the question as to avoid
12 leading the witness. Continue, please, and we shall take care that no
13 more leading questions are asked.
14 It is a fact that if the witness is led to a name that seems to
15 come out of the blue, it may be a problem.
16 Yes, please continue.
17 MR. RE: May it please, Your Honours, could I just have a moment.
18 I need to check something on LiveNote, the transcript, before I go on.
19 The screen in front of me, as you know, Your Honours, is only about a
20 page long.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you consulted the
23 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I worked out the
24 question I asked before. Your Honours will appreciate sometimes you
25 forget the question you asked before an interruption and you've got to go
1 back and look at it again.
2 Q. Witness BA, do you know who the leaders of the MOS were in 1992
3 and 1993?
4 A. I don't know exactly.
5 Q. The words you just used were "I don't know exactly." What do you
6 mean by "I don't know exactly"? Can you clarify that, please.
7 A. I don't know what you mean by "clarifying."
8 Q. My question was: "Do you know who the leaders were in 1992 and
9 1993?", and your answer was "I don't know exactly." Do you know any
10 other way other than exactly? Do you have some partial knowledge?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Could you please go back to Exhibit P4, which -- which is the
13 badges in front of you. Can you please look at number 15. What can you
14 tell the Trial Chamber about badge number 15?
15 A. I don't know anything.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what it says? It has some Arabic
17 writing on it. Can you read that to the Trial Chamber?
18 A. I cannot read Arabic.
19 Q. Can you please look at number 19. Have you seen badges similar
20 to that before?
21 A. I have.
22 Q. And where was that?
23 A. At the bazaar.
24 Q. Which bazaar and where and when?
25 A. One of -- in fact, some of these emblems can be obtained in
1 several places by anyone: civilians, soldiers, anybody. They were used
2 as some sort of advertisement item.
3 Q. Did soldiers of your brigade or any of the other brigades in the
4 3rd Corps wear a badge similar to number 19 during 1992, 1993, and 1994?
5 A. Every soldier was able to get hold of any patch and put it on his
6 sleeve. You could even buy an emblem of the Army of Republika Srpska.
7 Q. Just to direct you to number 19. Do you remember seeing soldiers
8 in either your brigade or other brigades wearing badges similar to that
9 shown in number 19?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what the lettering at the
12 bottom says, not the Arabic, the letter that goes round -- the lettering
13 that goes round the bottom.
14 A. "Muslim forces."
15 MR. RE: I note it's 4.15, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. For technical
17 reasons, we shall take a break. We will resume in 20 minutes. It is now
18 4.15. We will reconvene at 4.35.
19 --- Recess taken at 4.15 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 4.35 p.m.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
22 Very well. I think that in order to organise our work, we can
23 continue until quarter to 6.00, then we'll have a 20-minute break and
24 carry on until 7.00. So we have an hour -- an hour and ten minutes of
25 examination or cross-examination perhaps too. That depends on the amount
1 of time that will remain to us.
2 The Prosecution may continue.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. To finish be the badges, Witness BA, can you please look at
5 numbers 17 and 24. Firstly, can you tell the Trial Chamber anything
6 about number 17?
7 A. I've never seen badge number 17.
8 Q. And number 24?
9 A. It's not correctly written, but I haven't seen this one either.
10 Q. What do you mean by "it's not correctly written"?
11 A. Well, quite simply it's not correctly written.
12 Q. You told us before the break about what a hodza was. Did your
13 unit of the 7th Mountain Brigade have a hodza?
14 A. Yes, it did.
15 Q. Who was your hodza and what was his role?
16 A. There were several of them.
17 Q. Is there a difference between a hodza and an emir?
18 A. Yes, there is.
19 Q. Can you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what the difference
21 A. A hodza would take care of religious rites with the soldiers, for
22 the soldiers.
23 Q. And the emir?
24 A. The emir was responsible for issues which were outside of that
1 Q. Like ...?
2 A. I couldn't say exactly, but I know that all the hodzas in the
3 brigade were accountable to the emir.
4 Q. And who was the emir of the brigade?
5 A. Mahmut Efendija Karalic.
6 Q. Did the soldiers of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade receive
7 religious instruction?
8 A. Every member had access to the Koran [realtime transcript read in
9 error "corps"] and could learn something about the religion in this way.
10 Q. Apart from access to the Koran, did the soldiers in the 7th
11 Muslim Mountain Brigade receive religious instruction?
12 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
13 Q. Sure. I asked you whether soldiers of your brigade received
14 religious instruction, and you told me that every member had access to
15 the Koran and could learn something about religion in this way.
16 What I'm asking you is did the soldiers actually receive any
17 religious instruction as part of being a member of the 7th Muslim
18 Mountain Brigade.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness has
21 already answered this question, but according to the transcript he didn't
22 only mention the Koran. He said that all the soldiers were able to
23 receive various forms of religious instruction. Now, I don't understand
24 the Prosecution's question, because the witness did not just mention the
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecution may
2 continue. The witness mentioned access to religious instruction but not
3 just access to the Koran. It wasn't just based on the Koran.
4 Please continue.
5 MR. RE: Your Honour, the question and answer at 36, line 16.40
6 is: Did the soldiers receive any religious instruction? The answer was:
7 "Every member had access to the" -- it says "corps" but it was "Koran" --
8 "and could learn something about the religion in this way." That's the
9 question and answer I have in the transcript. I was asking the witness
10 to elaborate on that. Apart from access to the Koran, was there any
11 formal religious instruction or was it part of your duties as -- or part
12 of the fact that you were a member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
13 That part wasn't quite answered.
14 I'm just reading what the transcript actually says.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will resolve
16 this issue by asking the witness.
17 As far as your religious instruction was concerned, was there a
18 religious person who would provide you with such instruction?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every member of the 7th Muslim
20 Brigade could obtain information that he was interested in, given that 95
21 per cent -- that members of the brigade were 100 per cent Muslim, so they
22 already had access to this instruction. Anyone who was interested could
23 ask for access to such literature in order to study it.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this literature,
25 what was it exactly?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly religious literature.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not just the Koran then? There
3 were other religious books?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness has just told us
6 that there were various kinds of religious books.
7 Please continue.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Witness BA, upon joining the Muslim -- 7th Muslim Mountain
10 Brigade, what documents did the members, the new members, sign?
11 A. They signed a document that was the brigade's code.
12 Q. What was the brigade's code?
13 A. The brigade's code was based on human and eastern rights, on the
14 rights of Muslims and non-Muslims.
15 Q. How many parts did the code have?
16 A. I think it had six or seven parts.
17 Q. What were the parts in relation -- or in respect of Muslim rites
18 -- that's r-i-t-e-s.
19 A. All members of the 7th Muslim Brigade had to practice religious
20 rites and they had to respect their religion and the Muslims' tradition.
21 Q. Were those aspects of Muslim tradition that they had to respect
22 specified in this code?
23 A. It mostly meant that the Islam tradition had to be respected.
24 Each member of the 7th Muslim Brigade was not to consume alcohol. So it
25 concerned matters that were related to the Islam religion.
1 Q. You said the brigade's code was based on human and eastern
2 rights, also on the rights of non-Muslims. What were the human and
3 non-Muslim rights contained in that code?
4 A. Well, one of the items in the code concerned human rights and
5 the Geneva Conventions, the rights that were applicable in wartime.
6 Q. What were those, to the best of your recollection, that were
7 specified in this code?
8 A. At was necessary to respect the rules of war, POWs' rights had to
9 be respected. They weren't to be killed. It related to the Geneva
10 Conventions, on the whole.
11 Q. Apart from those things specified in the code, were you or other
12 soldiers, to your knowledge, given instruction on the laws of war or the
13 Geneva Conventions, the rights of POWs, et cetera, while you were a
14 member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber how and when that occurred
17 and how many times.
18 A. As soon as we signed this code, we were informed of these rules,
19 of the duties of members of the 7th Muslim Brigade and of the rights of
20 other people in certain other situations.
21 Q. You said you were informed. I just want you to tell the Trial
22 Chamber briefly how. Like, where it was and who did the -- who did the
23 informing, what sort of information you were given, and how long this
24 went for.
25 A. I don't remember exactly.
1 Q. Apart from the initial instruction, when you -- when members
2 joined, were members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade given any further
3 instruction on the Geneva Conventions, rights of POWs, laws of war, et
4 cetera, at any other time after joining?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you recall any -- receiving any other instruction on the laws
7 of war, all those things I just referred to? And if so, when and where?
8 A. Our attention was drawn to the duties of members of the 7th
9 Muslim Brigade on several occasions, on our duties in a time of war. But
10 I just can't remember when this was done exactly.
11 Q. I'll take you back to the other part that you told us about, of
12 the code which related to the Islamic -- or the Muslim portion, that is,
13 not to drink alcohol and to respect the Islamic traditions. Were you
14 aware of any situations when soldiers breached the Islamic component of
15 the code?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did that involve? What did they do?
18 A. They took disciplinary measures against such soldiers, in
20 Q. All right. I'll come to that in a moment. Maybe my question was
21 ambiguous. What did the soldiers do? What was -- what breach did the
22 soldiers commit of the Islamic component of the code?
23 A. That mostly had to do with drinking alcohol and committing other
24 minor offences outside the army.
25 Q. What were the disciplinary measures taken against soldiers who
1 were drinking alcohol?
2 A. It depended on what that involved. Some people were problematic
3 in addition to the fact that they drank alcohol.
4 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber of any specific incidents
5 you know of of people who were drinking alcohol being disciplined by the
6 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, what the soldiers did, and what the
7 discipline -- what the disciplining involved.
8 A. Some were sent out of the unit. They were placed at the disposal
9 of the corps. Some people were placed in detention, et cetera.
10 Q. You said some were placed in detention. Where were they placed
11 in detention and for how long?
12 A. For one, two, or three days, or for a week. It depended.
13 Q. And where was the detention centre where they were placed? Which
14 one was it?
15 A. It was in the gymnasium, Bilmiste.
16 Q. Who placed them there?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You also said apart from soldiers who had been -- soldiers being
19 disciplined for drinking alcohol, some soldiers were disciplined for
20 committing crimes outside. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber of
21 specific instances you know of soldiers within the 7th Muslim Mountain
22 Brigade being disciplined for committing crimes outside.
23 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
24 Q. You just told us a moment ago about soldiers being disciplined,
25 detained for drinking alcohol. Before that, you referred to soldiers
1 being disciplined for committing crimes outside. I think you meant
2 outside of the unit. What I want you to do is to tell the Trial Chamber
3 of any specific instances you know of of soldiers who committed crimes
4 outside of the unit and how they were disciplined and what the crimes
6 A. In the case of theft, for example. There were cases of theft,
7 for example.
8 Q. What was the discipline -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that. How were
9 soldiers who stole outside the unit disciplined?
10 A. They would be placed in detention or discharged from the unit.
11 Q. Were you aware of soldiers being placed in detention in other
12 centres apart from the gymnasium in Bilmiste?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And do you know whether the case of theft you were referring to
15 -- referring ago -- referring to a minute ago - I'm sorry - was dealt
16 with as a disciplinary -- were dealt with as disciplinary or criminal
18 A. Both.
19 Q. We've just been speaking about the code which every soldier in
20 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade had to sign. Were the soldiers given a
21 copy of the code?
22 A. I can't remember whether the soldiers were provided with a copy.
23 Q. I want to show you another document, which should be on the
24 screen in front of you now. If you look to the left side of the screen,
25 you'll see a document, the English translation is "Instructions to the
1 Muslim Fighter," Zenica 1993. The author is Hafiz Halil Mehtic and
2 Professor Hasan Makic. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what the
3 document on the left side of the screen is.
4 A. This document contained instructions that concerned the religion
5 of soldiers who perhaps were not familiar with certain religious matters.
6 Q. Who received this document?
7 A. Each and every soldier had access to this document.
8 Q. Did you receive a copy of this document yourself?
9 A. I consulted some of the literature that was available, but I
10 don't remember whether I had a look at this copy. I don't remember
11 whether I read it.
12 Q. You said each and every soldier had access to this document. How
13 did they have access to it? Where was the document kept?
14 A. When you read the title "Instructions to the Muslim Fighter," the
15 impression that -- well, these instructions, it was a book that stated
16 how a Muslim soldier could perform the rites. These weren't instructions
17 for soldiers, as soldiers.
18 Q. How did the soldiers have access to the book? What do you mean
19 by "they had access to it"?
20 A. You would just report to your hodza in the unit and say that you
21 needed some of the literature. The hodza would make an effort to provide
22 you with the literature you required.
23 MR. RE: May that be tendered into evidence now in B/C/S and in
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't recall
2 hearing that the witness recognised this document, because we aren't
3 familiar with the contents. It would be necessary to ask the witness
4 whether he is aware of the contents of these instructions. He mentioned
5 instructions that had to do with religious rites, so I'm not sure that
6 the witness has recognised this document, which the Prosecution is now
7 presenting as a piece of evidence.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will ask the
9 witness a question.
10 Witness, the document that you have before you, were you provided
11 with a copy when you became a member of the 7th Brigade?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember exactly whether I
13 had this document and whether it was available to me.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you see this document at
15 the site or did comrades of yours have copies of it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean that this is the
18 first time you are seeing it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The title of this little booklet
20 does not matter. What matters is the contents.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As to the contents
22 then. Have you familiarised yourself with them? Have you read the book?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you cannot tell us anything
25 about this document?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am turning, therefore, to the
3 Prosecution. The witness is telling us that he cannot say anything about
4 this book and even less about the contents.
5 MR. RE: Your Honour, can I just consult the transcript a few
6 pages back, when I first asked him?
7 The witness, Your Honour, has given evidence of familiarity with
8 the title of the book and its meaning and the fact that it was available
9 to soldiers in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade upon request from a hodza.
10 The witness's evidence is that he himself can't remember - I think is
11 what he said - he said he doesn't know whether he's read the book
13 The Prosecution isn't tendering the book on the basis that this
14 witness himself read the book but that this was a book which -- a
15 booklet, which this witness can identify, was available upon request from
16 the hodza within the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade to the soldiers there.
17 Whether or not this witness is aware of the contents is immaterial. It's
18 the fact that this particular book, and its contents, of course, were
19 available to the soldiers there.
20 The Prosecution moves to admit it at this point and it will
21 obviously become far more relevant later in the trial when we possibly
22 can produce other evidence linking to it. So at this stage it's only --
23 I'm only moving for its admission on the basis this witness can identify
24 the fact that the book -- the title of the book and that it was available
25 in the brigade.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'm turning to the
3 The Prosecutor has just indicated that this document apparently,
4 at the moment when you were in the 7th Brigade, is a document of whose
5 existence you knew and you could have acquainted yourself with the
6 contents if you had wished to.
7 I'm asking you: Even if you didn't hold it in your hands, did
8 you know that this document existed? I am very careful in phrasing this
9 question. Did you know of the existence of this document?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 The witness asserts that he doesn't know. In view of this state
13 of affairs, I think we will mark this document for identification and see
14 later what we can do with it, since the Prosecution claims that members
15 of the 7th Muslim Brigade had this document and the witness is not
16 confirming this claim.
17 We will give this document a number for identification.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me also draw the attention
20 of those present to another difficulty. When the Prosecution tenders a
21 document, all the parties need to be supplied with a copy, which makes a
22 total of seven copies. The registrar is telling me they don't have a
23 copy; the Trial Chamber doesn't have one either; and I don't think the
24 Defence has the document either. When you are submitting a document, be
25 so kind as to provide seven copies. In view of your resources, I don't
1 believe that that would be a problem.
2 At the moment, we cannot include this document even
3 provisionally, unless you have additional copies to provide right now.
4 So we will give a provisional number to this document for the time being
5 and we hope to get a copy from you tomorrow.
6 Could the registrar please give me a provisional number for this
7 document, because right now it doesn't exist for us.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P11 for
9 the B/C/S version and P11E for the English translation.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... Marked for
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
14 MR. RE: The Prosecution at this stage makes one observation in
15 respect of this part of the witness's evidence.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 MR. RE: That being the effect of the Trial Chamber's ruling, I
18 think last Wednesday. In relation to refreshing memory from a witness's
19 statement means, I take it, we can't show the witness's statement to the
20 witness in the witness box, to ask him to refresh his memory where he
21 said "I don't know" at this point. I'm flagging this so that Your
22 Honours are aware that if the Prosecution files another document -- makes
23 another filing in respect of Your Honours' motion -- sorry, Your Honours'
24 ruling last week, Your Honours are alerted to this passage, this
25 potential exhibit in this witness's evidence.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Before I give the floor
2 to Counsel Bourgon, I must remind everyone of the following: The Trial
3 Chamber does not have the statement of this witness, so we don't know
4 what this witness stated before. As regards this particular document,
5 the witness says he cannot say anything at all.
6 The Defence.
7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] If my learned friend wishes to make
8 comments regarding some previous statements, in the light of the Trial
9 Chamber's last week's decision, then the witness should be ushered out of
10 the courtroom first so we can have a free discussion of the issue. I
11 don't think this issue needs to be raised now in the presence of the
12 witness because that would be tantamount to giving the witness his own
13 statement to remind him of it.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence rightfully reminds
15 us that if you wish to refresh the witness's memory, it cannot be done
16 under a decision that the Trial Chamber had not been made aware of; and
17 second, if a previous statement is to be discussed, it can only be done
18 so in the absence of the witness. Otherwise, he might be unduly warned
19 of the issues at hand. It would be tantamount to telling the witness "in
20 paragraph such and such you said this and that and today you are saying
21 something quite different".
22 It is quite possible that certain things elude someone's memory
23 momentarily, and that's why I said it would be a good idea to mark this
24 document provisionally. For the time being, we have no elements in front
25 of us that would allow us to judge that the witness really knows about
1 it. You can ask, however, if the witness knows anything about the
2 content from his comrades. For instance, the Trial Chamber knows nothing
3 of this issue, apart from what we heard today in the courtroom.
4 You may continue, please.
5 MR. RE: My comment was only directed to -- that the Prosecution
6 intends to file a document in response to Your Honours' ruling. I'm just
7 alerting Your Honours to it may impact upon this witness's -- in passing.
8 That's all. I'm not debating the issue with the Defence or the Trial
9 Chamber, and especially not in the witness's presence. And I'm certainly
10 not asking Your Honours to reconsider at the moment. I'm just flagging
11 that there may be some impact. That's all.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But it cannot be
13 done in the presence of the witness. I would like to deal with this
14 situation in this way: I'll ask the witness directly.
15 Witness BA, we have just discussed the document, which as you
16 told us you never had and never read. Maybe you discussed it with your
17 comrades, friends.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you never talked about this
20 document with any of your comrades; is that what you're saying?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you never saw this document
23 in your base in which you were stationed?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is the first time that
1 you are seeing this document.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. He is telling us
4 that he hasn't seen this document before and he hasn't talked about it
5 with his comrades and he doesn't know what's in it.
6 It may seem like a contradiction as compared with his statement,
7 but that's what it is.
8 You may continue.
9 MR. RE: If Your Honours would just excuse me for one moment,
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 Q. When His Honour the Presiding Judge a moment ago asked you,
13 Witness BA, whether you had seen this document before, did you understand
14 His Honour to be referring to in the courtroom?
15 A. I saw it on that paper that you showed me, Mr. Prosecutor.
16 Q. All right. And was that yesterday?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the Prosecution interviewed you in 2002, and you provided a
19 statement to the Prosecution. Do you remember seeing that book when the
20 Prosecution interviewed you?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Do you remember my providing you with a copy of this statement
23 yesterday to take back to your hotel with you?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was sure the Defence was
25 going to be on their feet. Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My
2 learned friend is now doing precisely what the Trial Chamber prohibited
3 by their last week's decision; namely, the Prosecutor is making the
4 witness aware of a part of his earlier statement by quoting it. He says,
5 "I showed you this and you said that," and he's trying to get the answers
6 he needs in a different way. This all looks like cross-examination to
7 me; although, it should not be cross-examination.
8 If my learned friend wishes to ask questions regarding the
9 witness's statement and what the witness had done, seen, or heard, it can
10 be done in the absence of the witness. But the Prosecutor should by no
11 means be allowed to examine the witness in this way and jog his memory
12 here in the way that was forbidden by the Trial Chamber's decision.
13 There certainly are other ways to achieve the same goal.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. With regard to this
15 important issue, the Trial Chamber wishes to underline the following: In
16 these proceedings, the Office of the Prosecutor questioned this witness
17 in the course of investigation and the witness provided a witness
18 statement, a written statement. Several months later the witness comes
19 here to the courtroom to give evidence viva voce. In the course of a
20 proofing session, before the witness appears in the courtroom, the
21 Prosecution talks to him again and refreshes his memory.
22 During the proceedings, however, the witness gives a solemn
23 declaration, a declaration we need to believe; otherwise, we could have
24 doubts about false testimony. During viva voce testimony the witness
25 says that he had never seen that document in his country while he was a
1 soldier. He only said that he saw the document yesterday during a
2 proofing session. It is almost certain, therefore, that sometime ago,
3 several years ago, the witness said he had seen the document but in the
4 meantime he changed his mind and he is now stating he doesn't remember,
5 he is not sure; and here before the Judges he says he never saw the
6 document until yesterday. That's all we can note as regards this
8 He may very well have told you yesterday, in response to your
9 question, that he did see it before, but what matters is what he says
10 here before the Judges under oath and under oath today, what he says is,
11 "I haven't seen this document before." And from what we understood, he
12 is not even aware of its contents.
13 I believe that's how the land lies. I understand that the tasks
14 faced by the Prosecution are complex and they are facing a difficult
15 situation because the witness seems to be saying something different to
16 what he said before, but what matters is what he says before the Judges.
17 Of course, the Trial Chamber will hear other witnesses and hear other
18 evidence on the same issue, but this witness right now is saying that he
19 knows nothing of it.
20 Please continue. Our time is precious, and I believe there must
21 be more important issues that you can raise with this witness. We have
22 15 minutes before the break.
23 MR. RE: I'm not attempting to cross-examine the witness. I
24 think Mr. Bourgon misunderstood what I was doing. I was simply asking
25 the witness whether I gave him a copy of the statement last night, in
1 relation to a -- a filing the Prosecution intends to file in the very
2 near future in of Your Honours's ruling. That is as far as I wish to
3 take it, just to establish the foundation for a submission I wish to
4 make. That's as far as I wish to take it, Your Honours.
5 May I receive an answer as to whether I gave him a copy to
6 refresh, in line of Your Honours's decision -- not to refresh, to take
7 home with him. That was the extent of that, and as far as I want to go.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Go ahead and ask the
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Witness BA, last night did I give you a copy of your statement to
12 take back to your hotel with you to read?
13 A. Yes, you did.
14 Q. Earlier in your evidence, Witness BA, you told us about the
15 badges and camouflage uniform that your unit wore. What other things did
16 your -- what other items of apparel, if any, did your unit wear, apart
17 from a camouflage uniform?
18 A. In certain situations, depending on the weather and some other
19 factors, we would wear some different uniforms, if that's what you were
20 driving at.
21 Q. What did your wear on your head when you went into battle?
22 A. Yes, we did; although, it was not compulsory.
23 Q. I'm sorry. The answer is not quite clear. What did you wear on
24 your heads when you went into battle?
25 A. We wore headbands, just as an identification thing, headbands
1 that helped us distinguish amongst each other.
2 Q. What colour were the headbands?
3 A. Green or black.
4 Q. Was anything written on the headbands?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What?
7 A. Something in Arabic.
8 Q. Do you know what it was?
9 A. Lajlahelala.
10 Q. And what's that in Bosnian?
11 A. I'm not a really good translator from Arabic.
12 Q. Doing your best...
13 A. I would not like to even try.
14 Q. You said it was to distinguish -- help to distinguish amongst
15 each other. Who was being distinguished? From whom?
16 A. I'm not quite clear what you mean. Distinguished for whom, from
18 Q. You said "we wore headbands as identification things, headbands
19 that helped us distinguish amongst each other." I want you to elaborate
20 on that, to explain to the Trial Chamber who was being distinguished.
21 Why were you wearing the headbands?
22 A. In order to ask that question, you need to know a few things
23 about this war. If bullets are whizzing around your head, you see things
24 differently than you would see them if you just saw that on television,
25 looking from your home.
1 Q. Do you mean you were trying to distinguish your side from the
2 other side or your side from -- or your unit from other units or soldiers
3 from civilians? What do you mean?
4 A. For the most part, if we had a head-on clash with the enemy and
5 we worked in cooperation with other units from the same side, then we
6 needed to distinguish among various units on our side. Sometimes these
7 headbands were yellow or red or green. It all depended on the particular
9 Q. You said you wore different uniforms, depending upon weather
10 conditions. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what different
11 uniforms you wore.
12 A. Not all members of the 7th Muslim Brigade wore uniforms of
13 different colours. The colour of the uniforms depended on the weather.
14 If there was snow on the ground, we wore white uniforms. By night-time,
15 sabotage units and reconnaissance units would wear black uniforms. It
16 all depend on the configuration of terrain, the weather, and other
18 Q. What about flags? Did your unit or the brigade have flags?
19 A. Every brigade has its own flag.
20 Q. What was the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade's flag? Can you do your
21 best to describe it?
22 A. I'm afraid of making a mistake. As far as I can remember, it was
23 black. It had a golden wreath around the edges, and it had the
24 inscription "The 7th Muslim Brigade," and "Lajlahelala," if I remember
1 Q. Did it have any similarity to the badge you pointed out to us
3 Which should be coming up on the screen now.
4 MR. RE: I'm showing the witness P4 again.
5 A. They didn't really have any similarities with these badges here.
6 Q. Where was the flag of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade flown?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
8 A. In front of the barracks.
9 Q. You've mentioned barracks at Bilmiste, the Zenica Music School
10 and Sretno, in Kakanj. Was it flown outside each of those barracks?
11 A. I can't remember very well.
12 Q. What about the ABiH? Did it have a flag as well?
13 A. We always had a flag.
14 Q. I'm asking about the ABiH. Did the ABiH have a flag?
15 A. It had the coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the
16 flag of the BiH.
17 Q. Was that flag flown outside the barracks?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was it flown at the same time as the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade
21 A. The army flag was always flown, and the 7th Muslim Brigade flag
22 was only used on special occasions, on festive occasions.
23 Q. What sort of things did members of your unit or brigade say when
24 they went into battle?
25 A. There was an Islam greeting that would be used. That's how all
1 of the operations commenced.
2 Q. What was the Islam greeting that was used?
3 A. Tekbir Allah-U-Ekber.
4 Q. Is there another way of saying that?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Can you just repeat your answer, please. The question was: Is
8 there another way of saying Tekbir Allah-U-Ekber?
9 A. There's no other way of saying that.
10 Q. You said an Islam greeting -- you said those words would be used
11 at the commencement of operations. How did members of your unit use it?
12 What did you say -- sorry, how did you say it?
13 A. That was the greeting. One would say Tekbir, and the others
14 would reply, " Allah-U-Ekber."
15 Q. When you're giving this evidence, are you referring to a personal
16 greeting to another member of the brigade?
17 Did you not hear me?
18 A. I hear now.
19 Q. All right. When giving this evidence, are you referring to a
20 personal greeting to another member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
21 A. That was a greeting used within the brigade as well. It was a
22 way of supporting the morale of the men. It was also used in the field,
23 once operations had started.
24 Q. How was it used in the field once operation were started?
25 A. As I said a moment ago.
1 Q. What was your unit's particular role in combat operations in
2 Central Bosnia in 1993?
3 A. I don't know how to answer that question precisely. I wouldn't
4 know what to say about its precise role.
5 Q. When your unit went into battle, what was its position in the
6 battle -- in combat in relation to other units that were also employed in
7 a particular combat operation? Where did your brigade -- or your unit
9 A. If we were billeted in places where there were Muslim
10 inhabitants, we had better support as members of the 7th Muslim Brigade
11 than other units did.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's quarter to
13 6.00. We'll have a break until five past 6.00. But I think that -- How
14 much more time does the Prosecution need?
15 MR. RE: The way we're moving -- Your Honours are aware from the
16 summary file that there are three specific incidents - that's Vares,
17 Susanj, Ovnak, and Dusina - I haven't got to those yet. I might not
18 finish, unfortunately, today with this witness, the way we're going. I
19 was hoping to, but I don't know whether I can.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we will have the
21 cross-examination, it's going to be necessary for the witness to return
22 tomorrow. So we will have a break until five past 6.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- you may sit down.
1 Please sit down. It's five past 6.00, and we will finish at
3 The Prosecution may continue.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. Witness BA, you were telling us before the break about the
6 billeting of your unit in places where there were Muslim inhabitants and
7 you receiving better support as members of that brigade than other units
8 did. I'm just saying that to direct you to where we were a moment ago.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Armies have different units, such as reconnaissance brigades,
11 assault brigades, logistics brigades or units, intelligence units, and so
12 on. What sort of unit was the 2nd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain
14 A. Up until 1994, the brigade had the same duties as all other
15 battalions in any other brigade.
16 Q. When units go into combat in a coordinated plan where you've got
17 different units from different brigades or battalions operating in the
18 same combat operation, some go in -- some units go first, other units go
19 second; other units come from the sides. Where did your unit go -- where
20 did your unit feature in the order of attack?
21 A. On the whole, it escorted the reconnaissance and sabotage
22 platoon. It would accompany them.
23 Q. The reconnaissance and the sabotage platoon, was it the first one
24 to go in to battle?
25 A. In most of the operations, yes, that was the case.
1 Q. What sort of support did your battalion -- sorry, your -- your
2 battalion provide to the reconnaissance and sabotage platoon when it went
3 into battle?
4 A. It mainly provided military support, if there were certain
5 obstacles, if the platoon encountered strong resistance, then it would
6 provide fire support, if the reconnaissance and sabotage platoon
7 encountered such resistance.
8 Q. What you've just said indicated coordination between the
9 reconnaissance and sabotage platoon and your own unit. Who coordinated
10 or issued the orders for your unit and the reconnaissance and sabotage
11 platoon to operate together?
12 A. It was mostly through company commanders and commanders of the
13 reconnaissance and sabotage platoons. They would coordinate -- they
14 would be involved in such coordination.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Military units typically have battle cries when they go into
19 combat. What was your brigade's battle cry?
20 A. The only battle cry used by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade was
22 Q. How did you -- how did you use Tekbir-U-Alah? Can you explain
23 that to the Trial Chamber, and who you used it at.
24 A. All the members used it, on the whole. It was an expression
25 which provided members of the 7th Muslim Brigade with more confidence and
1 it also spread fear. We had the impression that it spread fear among the
3 Q. You said you used it to spread fear and to give the brigade more
4 confidence. At what volume did the members call out "Tekbir-U-Alah"?
5 I mean, how loudly did you call it out?
6 A. Well, each individual would cry out "Allah-u-ekber" of his own
7 accord and as loudly as he could. And if you have 100 or 200 members who
8 cry this out, then it creates a substantial noise.
9 Q. The members of the reconnaissance and sabotage platoon, were they
10 also -- were they attached to the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade or were
11 they attached to other units?
12 A. I didn't quite understand the beginning of your question.
13 Q. All right. You referred to escorting a reconnaissance and
14 sabotage platoon. Was this platoon part of the 7th Muslim Mountain
15 Brigade or attached to another brigade or unit of the 3rd Corps?
16 A. As far as I know, they worked within the brigade.
17 Q. Did they likewise call out that battle cry or was it confined to
18 members of your unit?
19 A. As far as I can remember, they used that battle cry too.
20 Q. I want to ask you now about the Mujahedin in Zenica and Central
21 Bosnia in 1992 and 1993. What can you tell the Trial Chamber about the
22 arrival in Central Bosnia of Mujahedin?
23 A. Small groups arrived, groups of two or three men on the whole.
24 Q. Where did they arrive from and where did they go to?
25 A. From various countries, not just from one country. They would
1 pass through on the whole and find accommodation in their centres. Some
2 didn't even pass through the brigade. They would go to where their men
3 were already located.
4 Q. I'll come back to that answer in a moment. When did you notice
5 the arrival -- first notice the arrival of these Mujahedin?
6 A. Perhaps in October or November 1992.
7 Q. The answer before was "Some didn't even pass through the brigade.
8 They would go to where their men were already located." Where were their
9 men already located? That's the ones who didn't pass through the
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about those who did pass
13 through your brigade, as you said a moment ago. How many became members
14 of your brigade?
15 A. I don't know whether you could say that they became members of
16 the brigade. They were never part of the brigade's operations. At the
17 beginning, some of them would stay in the brigade for a day or two, sleep
18 over there. They would be provided with some sort of accommodation,
19 until they moved on.
20 Q. What can you tell the Trial Chamber about training camps that the
21 Mujahedin had in Central Bosnia?
22 A. In the beginning, when the Muslim Brigade was being formed, as
23 far as I can remember there was a place where foreigners would provide
24 men with training, would train men.
25 Q. Which place was that?
1 A. It was in Arnauti, a camp in Arnauti.
2 Q. And who were the men that were providing this training?
3 A. As far as I can remember, there were three or four Turks.
4 Q. And who were these Turks training? Which men were they training?
5 A. They were training the men who had volunteered for this training.
6 Q. Do you know of any members of your brigade receiving training
7 from those three or four Turks at Arnauti?
8 A. Yes, I do remember.
9 Q. How did -- how many men from your brigade that you know of went
10 for training with these Turks at Arnauti?
11 A. That training was given at the beginning, when the 7th Muslim
12 Brigade was formed, at a time when it still didn't bear that name and I
13 took part in the training too.
14 Q. How many other men from your brigade were there, apart from you,
15 receiving this training?
16 A. In the group I was in, there were about another 20 members.
17 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber about the training. What happened
18 at the training camp? What sort of training was provided? How long was
19 it for?
20 A. It lasted about ten days. It mostly had to do with preparations,
21 physical stamina, and getting to know the weapons. So it was a period in
22 October 1992, and the brigade hadn't been formed yet. People didn't know
23 what equipment was, what weapons were, and what it meant to go into the
24 field and to war, so this involved training for fitness, et cetera.
25 Q. Who ordered you to undertake the training with these Turks at
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has
3 already said that the men volunteered, so this question has already been
5 MR. RE: I withdraw it and I'll rephrase it.
6 Q. How did you come to be aware that there was the option or
7 possibility of volunteering for training with the Turks in Arnauti?
8 A. I can't remember exactly. That was a long time ago.
9 Q. I want to ask you about other training camps run by the
10 Mujahedin. What other camps were you aware of that the Mujahedin was
11 running, for training or whatever other purpose, in Central Bosnia in
12 1992 and 1993?
13 A. The only camp that existed at the time, I never saw it. I heard
14 about it. It was in Mehurici.
15 Q. And what was the purpose of the Mujahedin training camps at
16 Mehurici and Arnauti, based upon your experience of having gone there for
18 A. I can only speak about the camp in Arnauti. I can't say anything
19 about the other camp in Mehurici, as I was not there.
20 Q. Please confine yourself to Arnauti, then. My question is: What
21 was the purpose of the Mujahedin training camp at Arnauti, based upon
22 your experience of having trained there?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object again.
24 The witness has answered this question in detail of the Mujahedin
25 training camp at Arnauti, based upon your experience of having trained
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object again.
3 The witness has answered this question in detail.
4 MR. RE: I can certainly rephrase it, to expand it beyond just
6 Q. Apart from training, Witness BA, was there any purpose that you
7 learned of for the Mujahedin having a training camp at Arnauti, based
8 upon your experience of having been there?
9 A. No, there wasn't.
10 Q. Are you aware of members of your brigade going for training with
11 the Mujahedin at the Mehurici camp?
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to object.
13 The witness has already stated that he knows nothing about this area. He
14 said that he only knew about the camp in Arnauti.
15 MR. RE: That's not quite correct. The witness said he was aware
16 of one at Mehurici. My question is whether he is aware of any of his
17 brigade members going for training there. They're two different issues.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, could you answer
19 the question. Apparently there was a second camp in Mehurici, and the
20 question was: Were there any members of the 7th Brigade who were trained
21 in that camp, as far as you know? If you don't know -- as far as you
22 know, were any of your comrades or other soldiers trained in this camp?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. I want to ask you about whether Mujahedin joined the 7th Muslim
2 Mountain Brigade before January 1993. Were there any Mujahedin members
3 of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade or working within the 7th Muslim
4 Mountain Brigade before January 1993?
5 A. The only operation in which the Mujahedin participated was in
6 Visegrad in 1992, on the 27th of December, 1992. That's the only one in
7 which they participated with members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade,
8 as far as I know.
9 Q. When you say "participated," do you mean as members of the
10 brigade or working in coordination with the brigade, in the combat
12 A. I wouldn't know how to answer that question.
13 Q. Were you present in that combat -- sorry, did you participate in
14 that combat operation yourself?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What role did the Mujahedin have in that operation?
17 A. As far as I can remember, it was to die.
18 Q. What did you see them do in that operation?
19 A. In one of the operations in which 4 or 5 kilometres of the line
20 was attacked, you couldn't see what was happening, so I didn't see what
21 they did.
22 Q. You said as far as you could remember, their role was to die.
23 What did you mean by "it was to die"?
24 A. I said this because as far as I remember, 20 or more Mujahedin
25 got killed in that operation, if that information is correct.
1 Q. Were there -- did members of your brigade die as well?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What were relations like between your brigade and those Mujahedin
4 after that particular operation?
5 A. That is, I think, when we broke all links with the Mujahedins.
6 Q. Why did you break links with the Mujahedin?
7 A. That is a question that I cannot answer properly.
8 Q. Were you aware of any disputes between the 7th Muslim Mountain
9 Brigade and the Mujahedin?
10 A. There was a dispute during -- in fact, after that operation
11 between them and the command in Visoko and the command of our brigade.
12 There were officers of our brigade who were abused by the Mujahedin
13 during that dispute.
14 Q. What was your information about the supplies -- or the source of
15 the supplies that the Mujahedin had?
16 A. I could not answer that question.
17 Q. Were there Mujahedin members of the 2nd Battalion up until
18 January 1993?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. I turn now to the topic of Dusina, Witness BA. It is an agreed
21 fact in this trial between the Defence and the Prosecution that there was
22 an attack in the vicinity of Dusina on about the 25th of January, 1993,
23 in which the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade participated. Did your
24 battalion participate in the attack on Dusina?
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Counsel.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor
2 referred to some agreed fact between the Prosecution and the Defence. We
3 never agreed as regards the attack. All we agreed to was that a certain
4 number of people got killed during the fighting in Dusina, and I would
5 like the Prosecutor to confirm this.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Counsel for the Prosecution,
7 the Defence does not acknowledge that there is agreement between you
8 regarding what you quoted. She confirms that there was fighting in that
9 area at that time, but there is no agreement as to an attack, so the
10 Defence does not agree with the argument that members of the 7th Brigade
11 were there.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Microphone not activated] -- Your Honours, the
13 Defence is not surprised that the Prosecution now wishes to avail itself
14 of agreed facts, because they are designed to speed up the proceedings.
15 But what the Prosecution would be well advised to do is to quote the
16 relevant section from our agreed facts. The subject indeed falls within
17 the scope of agreed facts but not exactly in the way that was referred to
18 by the Prosecution. I would, therefore, ask my learned friend for a
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.
21 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour. I just -- I mean, I didn't
22 quote from the agreed facts. I paraphrased to try and speed things up
23 and get to the point because I thought there was no dispute about the
24 fact that this witness was a member of the brigade; the 2nd Battalion
25 participated in the attack on Dusina; that occurred. And I'm referring
1 to, on -- it's page 6503 of the filing -- the joint filing of the 3rd of
2 December, 2003, paragraph 16 and 17 on -- the page numbering is a little
3 bit out. The page says "2" at the bottom.
4 Do Your Honours have page 6503 in front of you or can it be
5 provided to you? I mean, if there is some dispute or the Defence is
6 going back on it, it can, of course, be revisited, but ...
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber notes that in
8 paragraph 16 of this agreement it states: "On the 26th of January, 1993,
9 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and inter alia the 1st Company of the 2nd
10 Battalion took part in combat operations until 6.00 a.m. This went on in
11 Merdani, Dusina and another village."
12 Does the Defence now dispute the contents of this item?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we don't. In the English
14 text, it says precisely "engaged in combat." But the Prosecutor seems to
15 be saying that we agreed that there was an attack and that we -- what we
16 do know, what we agreed to, is that there was a conflict, but not an
17 attack on Dusina.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understood
19 this correctly, the disagreement is on the following: The Defence
20 acknowledge that forces were engaged in the relevant area and the
21 Prosecution claim it was an attack; is that so? Yes.
22 Well, if the document were in French, I believe that there would
23 be less disagreement about the language, because it would be clearer. In
24 any case, the Trial Chamber notes that the Defence acknowledges there was
25 fighting but not more than that.
1 I'm now giving the floor to the Prosecution, who may continue
2 with their examination, taking into account this objection.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. Witness BA, I want to ask you about the combat operations in the
5 Dusina area on the 25th and 26th of January, 1993. Did you, your unit,
6 the 2nd Battalion, participate in combat operations in Dusina on the 25th
7 and 26th of January, 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was your battalion divided into companies?
10 A. At the time, the battalion was not yet complete, so a smaller
11 part of the battalion took part.
12 Q. Could it be described as a company?
13 A. It could.
14 Q. How many members took part?
15 A. Maybe 60 to 80.
16 Q. What was your company known as? Did it have a name?
17 A. I want had this symbolic name, Musical Company.
18 Q. Where were you ordered to go?
19 A. To the confluence of Bosna and Lasva Rivers. Our task was to
20 secure the bridge, to guard the bridge.
21 Q. Why?
22 A. I wouldn't know exactly why.
23 Q. Who ordered your company there?
24 A. I don't know exactly. I was only a soldier.
25 Q. Who was your battalion commander on the 25th of January, 1993?
1 A. I think --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name, if it
3 was mentioned.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. You said "I think." Can you please repeat that part of your
7 A. I think Taran or Taran was still the battalion commander.
8 Q. You were ordered to go to the confluence of the Bosna and Lasva
9 Rivers. Did you in fact go there?
10 A. Yes, we did.
11 Q. What did you do once you got there?
12 A. Most of the time we were guarding that site. There was a loop on
13 the road with forks off to Kakanj and Zenica. Our task was to guard that
14 bridge and that loop.
15 Q. Where were you based?
16 A. Right there, in a house nearby.
17 Q. You just told us about your company. What about other companies
18 or units of the ABiH? Were there other ones there?
19 A. I don't know whether any other participants were there.
20 Q. Were you aware of other units in the ABiH having been there
21 immediately before?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. When did you get to the confluence of the Lasva and Bosna Rivers
24 and how long did you remain there for?
25 A. I think two or three days maybe.
1 Q. The question was when? Can you tell us the date, please.
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. When was it in relation to the 26th of January, 1993, which is
4 the date the parties have agreed was when the combat operations in Dusina
6 A. Maybe on the 24th.
7 Q. Where did your company go from that point of the confluence of
8 the rivers?
9 A. To the Dusina village.
10 Q. How did you get to the Dusina village?
11 A. Taking a round-about way, across a hill.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. I want to show you a map, Witness BA, of which I have seven
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Everybody will receive a copy
17 of this map.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Now, Witness BA, I want you to get the large black texter, which
20 the usher, Mr. Usher, will give you. And please draw a circle around the
21 point which was the confluence of the Lasva and Bosna Rivers where your
22 company went to.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Can you please now draw an arrow, like a military-type arrow, and
25 show where you went from there, the direction you took to reach the
1 village of Dusina. Do you know what I mean by a "large military-type
2 arrow," on maps where you see an arrow coming down with a big point on
3 the bottom?
4 A. I don't know exactly what you mean.
5 Q. Can you just trace your route in arrow sort of formation, dot,
6 dot, sort of line, line, line, arrow, arrow, arrow.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Can you just put an arrow in the direction you were travelling,
9 some arrows on these lines, in the direction in which you were
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. RE: I apologise.
15 Q. Which part of Dusina did you go to?
16 A. The Muslim part of Dusina.
17 Q. When did you arrive there?
18 A. By night.
19 Q. Which side of midnight was it?
20 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.
21 Q. Where did you go to in the Muslim part of Dusina?
22 A. The soldiers took up positions inside the village. Some were
23 quartered in houses, some up -- some took up guard duty immediately, and
24 some --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to repeat the end of
1 the sentence and speak up a little, at least.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. Witness BA, could you please repeat the last part of your
4 question -- sorry, your answer. You said "some were quartered in houses.
5 Some took up guard duty immediately, and some --" it sort of petered out
6 there. And the interpreters are asking you to please speak a little more
7 loudly so they can clearly hear you.
8 A. Some were billeted in Mejtef.
9 THE INTERPRETER: M-e-j-t-e-f.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Is that another way of saying the Muslim part of Dusina?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Where is or what is Mejtef?
14 A. The Mejtef was located in the upper part of the village, and
15 "Mejtef" is a temple, a place where prayers take place.
16 Q. How many soldiers accompanied you to the Muslim part of Dusina
17 and the Mejtef on that night?
18 A. So in this place of worship, in the Mejtef, there were about 20
19 of us. I don't know how many more were deployed around the village.
20 Q. Were there any other soldiers -- sorry, were there any soldiers
21 from other units deployed in Mejtef or the Muslim part of Dusina, apart
22 from those in your company?
23 A. No, not as far as I remember.
24 Q. Did you remain overnight in Dusina?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And what happened the next morning?
2 A. The next morning we received some sort of an assignment to take
3 up positions, be deployed around the village.
4 MR. RE: Does Your Honour wish me to stop at this point?
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is two to 7.00, so we
6 had better adjourn.
7 At this stage would you like to tender the map or would you like
8 to do it tomorrow? Unless you have other questions to ask about the map.
9 MR. RE: Would it be marked for identification tonight and I'll
10 tender it in the morning when I've had the witness -- sorry, tomorrow,
11 when I've had the witness put further markings on it.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please give it a
13 number for identification.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours , the number will be P12, marked for
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it will be P12
17 marked for identification.
18 It is one to 7.00 now, and we shall resume tomorrow in the
19 afternoon, as envisaged. We shall also sit on Tuesday and Wednesday but
20 not on Thursday or Friday because the Plenary is taking place on those
21 two days, and we shall resume again the following week from Monday to
23 Witness, since not even the examination-in-chief is completed,
24 please come back tomorrow. We will begin at 2.15, but you should be here
25 earlier. In the meantime, I advise you not to meet or discuss your
1 evidence with either party.
2 So we shall meet again tomorrow and work from 2.15. Have you
3 understood me well?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 This hearing is adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of
9 December, 2003 at 2.15 p.m.