Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1151

1 Thursday, 18 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you

5 please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

8 [The accused entered court]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can I have the appearances of

10 the parties, please. There's a part of the Prosecution that is hidden

11 behind the pillar.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.

13 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Ekkehard Withopf, with Kimberly

14 Fleming as the case manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, which is rather

16 far removed now.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

18 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of the Defence of General

19 Hadzihasanovic today, Edina Residovic, Defence Stephane Bourgon, and

20 Alexis Demirdjian, attorney from Montreal.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

24 Mr. Mulalic.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The

Page 1152

1 Chamber bids good morning to all the parties: The Prosecution, the

2 Defence, and the accused.

3 Today we have a new witness. But before calling the new witness,

4 I would like to ask the Defence whether they filed their remarks, as I

5 asked them to do, with regard to the motion of the Prosecution. I'm told

6 that they have.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But we didn't

8 manage to do it by 5.00, but we did by 7.00. We had some technical

9 difficulties. It has been filed, both in electronic and paper form. It

10 has been filed with the Registry.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber notes

12 that the Defence has been working all night in order to produce this

13 document on time.

14 Regarding the Prosecution, how many witnesses are planned for

15 today?

16 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, there's one witness on the schedule

17 for today. In the event this witness can be finished prior to 1.45,

18 there is a likelihood that we can call the second witness immediately

19 after.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

21 Can I ask the usher to be kind enough to bring in the witness.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, madam. Are you

24 hearing the interpretation?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

Page 1153

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you be kind enough to

2 give us your full name, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivanka Tavic.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 25th of November, 1968.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Maljine, Travnik

8 municipality.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

10 profession?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am currently unemployed.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your place of

13 residence?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm living in Vitez.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 As you're going to testify now, is this the first time you're

17 testifying in court?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the

20 text of a solemn declaration that the usher will give you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may

24 be seated.


Page 1154

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you will have to answer

3 questions which the Prosecution, which is on your right, are going to put

4 to you. And at the end of that examination, the Defence, which is on

5 your left, with the attorney seated on your left, will have questions for

6 you. The Judges, who are in front of you, may also have questions for

7 you. And at the end of the questions of the Defence, the Prosecution may

8 re-examine you.

9 I am, therefore, going to give the floor to the Prosecution for

10 their examination-in-chief.

11 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

12 Q. Good morning, Ms. Tavic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Ms. Tavic, you told the Trial Chamber that you were born in

15 Maljine. Where did you live in 1992 and in the first month of 1993?

16 A. I was living in Maljine.

17 Q. At this point in time, 1992, and within the first month of 1993,

18 members of which ethnicities were living in Maljine?

19 A. Members of the Muslim ethnicity and members of the Croatian

20 ethnicity were living in Maljine.

21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which group was in the majority.

22 A. There were more Muslims, but not significantly more.

23 Q. Can you give us a rough idea in respect to the number of

24 households for the Muslim group and for the Croat group?

25 A. Well, there may have been some 100 Croat households and between

Page 1155

1 150 and 200 Muslim households, something like that.

2 Q. Were the Croats and the Muslims living in the same area of

3 Maljine, or were they living in separate areas?

4 A. Well, though it is one village by name, the ethnicities were

5 separated. The part known as Gornje Maljine, which means "upper

6 Maljine," inhabited by Croats; and the Donje Maljine, or "lower Maljine"

7 were inhabited by Muslims.

8 Q. In 1992 and early 1993, what has been the relationship between

9 the Croats and Serbs in Maljine?

10 A. Until the beginning of 1993, there really were no problems

11 between us, especially not on an ethnic basis. We had one school in the

12 village. We went to school together. We socialised together. There

13 were no incidents until the beginning of 1993.

14 Q. Did there come a time at which this good relationship changed?

15 A. The first visible signs of change in the behaviour of the Muslims

16 in our village appeared when the first Mujahedins appeared on the

17 territory of Travnik municipality. It was then that in our village we

18 started to notice Muslims, people we knew from before, but they changed

19 in the way they dressed. They had beards grown and some Arab

20 characteristics, which were quite unknown to us before.

21 Q. These individuals which you are referring to as Mujahedin, when

22 did you for the first time notice them in your geographical area?

23 A. I personally started coming across them at the end of 1992 in the

24 town of Travnik. I would go to town often, so that -- they could be seen

25 in the streets.

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Page 1157

1 Q. These Mujahedin, did they wear -- did they have any weapons?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which sort of weapons.

4 A. These were mostly firearms, rifles. I don't know what make or

5 type, but they were rifles, long barrels.

6 Q. The Mujahedin, did they wear any military uniforms?

7 A. Yes. They had military uniforms, but individuals could be seen

8 wearing different clothing. I really don't know how you call them. They

9 were wearing some kind of clothing that was quite unusual, something we

10 hadn't seen in our area before.

11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, can you give the Trial Chamber a

12 rough idea about the numbers of Mujahedin or how often have you seen

13 them?

14 A. Whenever I went to town, I could see them. They became a daily

15 occurrence. The largest groups could be seen in one of their charitable

16 societies that they opened across the road from the police in Travnik.

17 That is where they would gather in groups. You could always see them, 10

18 to 15 of them together, it depended. But you could see them every day in

19 the streets. They became part of our daily lives.

20 Q. Since the Mujahedin were armed, did you get any information or do

21 you have any own knowledge where the Mujahedin were based?

22 A. Personally, on one occasion, as I was going into town by bus, I

23 heard from a Muslim from our village that the Mujahedin had arrived at

24 Mehurici, that there were quite a number of them there, how they would

25 help them, that there were some in Poljanice. So that is how we learnt

Page 1158

1 that they had come close to us.

2 Q. Ms. Tavic, was there a point in time when Maljine was attacked?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you still recall as to when Maljine was attacked?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the date.

7 A. The actual attack occurred on the 7th of June, 1993.

8 Q. On the 7th of June, 1993, what did you do at this point in time?

9 A. The attack first started Postinje, early in the morning. It's a

10 small village close to Maljine. I was actually awaked by the shooting

11 that wasn't actually in my village, but nearby. And a couple of hours

12 later, people from that part of the village brought in a man who was

13 wounded in the leg and who was transported to the outpatients clinic.

14 And during the transportation of this wounded man, the Muslims from Donje

15 Maljine opened fire on the vehicle. And that is how the shooting

16 actually started in my village.

17 After the vehicle had taken the wounded man, my uncle was hit,

18 Anto Talic, and then I, too, ran away from the house to the part where he

19 had been wounded, and together with another three men, we brought him to

20 the village. But as the shooting had escalated, there was no possibility

21 of transporting him by car to the clinic, so that he was carried on foot

22 across the hill, but he didn't survive. Unfortunately, he died.

23 Q. Ms. Tavic, you are mentioning a clinic. What was your function

24 at the time on the 7th of June, 1993?

25 A. After this wounding happened and after the man died on the way up

Page 1159

1 there, there was a doctor in the village and we realised that we had no

2 choice but to organise ourselves in the village. And in a part of the

3 village, in a large basement, we decided to form a sort of dispensary.

4 And then I and two or three girls went round the village collecting

5 sheets and medicines and bandages, and that is how we formed this

6 dispensary in a basement.

7 In view of the fact that night was falling, in the afternoon, as

8 we were equipping the dispensary, already that afternoon there were some

9 new wounded men; an older man, Anto Juric, had been hit in front of his

10 house. His wife, who was running towards him, was also hit in the leg

11 and she stayed lying on the road. He came to the dispensary. We managed

12 to treat him. But when we tried to reach his wife, Mara, it was

13 impossible, which was because the area was exposed and there was constant

14 shooting, and she was left there until 9.00 in the evening. When night

15 fell, then her sons went to pull her out. So that night, the night of

16 the 7th, I spent in the dispensary.

17 Q. To which army did the attacking soldiers belong to?

18 A. The BH army.

19 Q. During the attack, did the attacking soldiers shout anything?

20 A. Yes. On the 8th of June, early in the morning at dawn, about

21 3.30 or 4.00, when the main attack on Maljine started, when they had

22 already entered the village and surrounded it from all sides, we heard

23 some unusual calls of "Allah-U-Ekber," "Tekbir," the meaning of which I

24 didn't know at all. I didn't know what it meant.

25 Q. You were saying that the attacking soldiers were from the ABiH,

Page 1160

1 the Muslim army. Did you see any identifying features, any shoulder

2 patches or something like that?

3 A. Yes. Most of them in those days were wearing blue patches with

4 lilies, which were the insignia of the BH army at the time.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit

6 P4.

7 Q. Mrs. Tavic, do you see a photo board in front of you on the

8 screen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please identify on this photo board the shoulder patch

11 you were referring to a few seconds ago.

12 A. It is number 12, patch number 12.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. WITHOPF: For the record, the witness has identified on the

15 Prosecution Exhibit P4 the patch numbered 12 as the one which was worn by

16 the attacking ABiH soldiers.

17 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that the attacking

18 soldiers were shouting "Tekbir," "Allah-U-Ekber," and other words you

19 couldn't understand. Did they have any other things with them in a

20 language you couldn't understand or couldn't read?

21 A. I don't understand the question. If you're referring to the

22 soldiers of the BH army that we saw just then, those were the only things

23 they said I couldn't understand. But when the Mujahedin entered the

24 village, there were many things that could not be understood.

25 Q. The attacking soldiers, did they have a flag with them?

Page 1161

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what this flag was

3 about.

4 A. It was a big black flag. And somewhere in the middle something

5 was written in Arabic script.

6 Q. On the 8th of June, 1993, do you know which unit of the ABiH

7 attacked Maljine? Have you seen any identifying insignia?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has

9 already answered that she only saw the insignia of the Army of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness, in answer to

13 a previous question, clearly answered that she only saw the insignia of

14 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which she identified as being the

15 patch number 12.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question of the Prosecution

17 was whether the witness, in addition to the patch that she identified on

18 P4, whether she saw any other patches or insignia.

19 Madam Witness, when you were there - and you told us a moment ago

20 that you were present during the attack - to the best of your memory, do

21 you remember in addition to the patch that you identified any other

22 distinctive patch? Did you notice any other? As it was more than ten

23 years ago, do you remember it today?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, things like that one

25 does not forget. When the soldiers entered our village, we saw them face

Page 1162












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Page 1163

1 to face. And I had occasion to go to another part of the village with

2 two of those soldiers to gather the civilians and the other wounded in

3 other houses. One of the two soldiers who were escorting me had the

4 insignia of the 314th Brigade. In front of a house where there were many

5 civilians and a wounded pregnant woman, there were a number of soldiers

6 of the BH army which bore the insignia of the 306th Brigade.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you saw two types of

8 insignia, of the 314th Brigade and of the 306th Brigade; is that right?

9 And you're sure of that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 100 per cent.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12 Q. Was there a time on the 8th of June, 1993 when the fighting

13 stopped?

14 A. Yes. When the men from our village withdrew from the line that

15 they had been manning, there were much fewer of them than the Muslim

16 soldiers who were attacking them. We realised that we were totally

17 encircled. And then the women who were hiding in shelters talked us into

18 surrendering, because there was no other way out. Then we spoke to the

19 soldiers who were in that part of the village, and then the doctor made a

20 big flag from the smaller Red Cross flags. She left the house. She

21 waved the flag and in that way showed the army that we were surrendering.

22 And then somebody on the other side shouted, "Stop shooting. They are

23 surrendering." A few minutes later the shooting stopped indeed.

24 Q. After the surrender of the Croats, what happened then?

25 A. When we surrendered, the doctor went to a group of Muslim

Page 1164

1 soldiers with that flag. After a certain time, she returned and she said

2 that they wanted us to gather all the weapons and bring them to them.

3 However, the men who carried weapons were afraid for their safety. They

4 said that there was nobody to guarantee their safety. Then the doctor

5 went back to talk to the soldiers, and the message she brought back was

6 that there was no other way out; either we were to surrender or they

7 would continue shooting. And then the men decided to surrender their

8 weapons. The doctor collected the weapons, together with a girl, and

9 they brought the weapons to the Muslim soldiers on the other side. Then

10 the Muslim soldiers entered the dispensary, in that part of the village,

11 and they separated soldiers on one side, separated soldiers on one side,

12 men on another side, women and children on a third side. They told us

13 to remain in the dispensary with the wounded.

14 Q. Amongst the soldiers, the defending soldiers of Maljine, was

15 there any of your family members?

16 A. Yes. I had a brother. It is a small village, and everybody --

17 mostly everybody is connected with family ties in that village.

18 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the name of your brother.

19 A. My brother was an able-bodied man, and he was on the line of the

20 defence. His name was Miroslav. However, the other brother had been

21 wounded. He was not able-bodied. He was among the wounded. His name

22 was Stipo.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to your brother

24 Stipo Tavic and the other soldiers which had been -- which had

25 surrendered.

Page 1165

1 A. Once we surrendered, all the civilians and soldiers were lined in

2 a column -- I apologise. And that column was escorted by Muslim soldiers

3 and set off for Mehurici. Since the wounded could not move, we asked for

4 a truck to be provided for them. Once the truck was found, we put the

5 wounded on that truck. My brother was among them. However, although we

6 were supposed to go with the wounded and their escorts, there was an

7 argument among the Muslims, so the Mujahedins who had entered the village

8 and the BH army soldiers, they simply jumped on the truck and took it

9 away in an unknown direction. Thank you.

10 Later on I learnt that that truck ended up on the road towards

11 Bikose. The wounded were taken off that truck, and together with other

12 men, they were executed.

13 Q. Ms. Tavic, if you need a break, the Trial Chamber is certainly

14 very well prepared to have a short break.

15 A. I apologise. If you can give me just a moment.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to make a

17 five-minute break.

18 --- Break taken at 9.37 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 9.43 a.m.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, can you please

21 bring the witness in.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated, madam.

24 The Chamber would like to tell you that whenever you want to

25 interrupt the testimony, you should tell us. Whenever you feel that you

Page 1166

1 are not up to answering questions, we will accommodate your wish for a

2 break.

3 Can we now continue? The Prosecution, you may resume your

4 examination-in-chief.


6 Q. Mrs. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that a number of

7 Croats, amongst them your brother, were put on a truck by the Mujahedin.

8 Can you tell the Trial Chamber who else in addition to your brother was

9 put on this truck?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, the

12 Prosecutor says that the witness stated that some of the Croats, amongst

13 whom her brother, were put on a truck by the Mujahedin. As far as I can

14 see in the transcript, this was not said by the witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please rephrase your

16 question, because effectively the Defence has the right in objecting that

17 this is not what the witness said.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Very well. I'm going to rephrase the question.

19 Q. Ms. Tavic, do you still recall who put your brother, Stipo Tavic,

20 on the truck?

21 A. It was us who put the wounded on the truck, but the truck was

22 driven away by the Mujahedin, and that's the source of the

23 misunderstanding. Besides my brother, we put other wounded on the truck;

24 those were the wounded who were in the infirmary. I can give you their

25 names. All of them were executed except for Mara Juric, who was taken

Page 1167

1 off the truck before the truck stopped, and she was left on the road. In

2 addition to my brother, there was also Luka Balta, Jozo Balta, Predrag

3 Puselja, Anto Matic, Mara Juric, and Srecko Bobas. They were all

4 seriously wounded and they were all bedridden. They couldn't move.

5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to the rest of the

6 Croat civilians and soldiers.

7 A. The rest of the civilians and soldiers were taken in a group

8 towards Mehurici village. However, when they arrived at Poljanice they

9 were intercepted by the Mujahedin and they separated the soldiers wearing

10 uniforms from other -- and other able-bodied men, according to their

11 estimate. However, there was a 16-year-old boy, Stjepan Volic. And they

12 were all taken back towards Bikose. And together with the wounded, these

13 people were also shot dead. However, luckily enough, a few of them

14 managed to escape, so we learnt what had happened at Bikose.

15 When the Mujahedin took the wounded away, I remained with the

16 doctor and the other woman who was in the dispensary. A person called

17 Ibrahim came. He was from Kotor Varos. He told us that he would

18 transfer us personally to Mehurici. At that moment, another soldier came

19 up to us and said that the car that had taken the wounded pregnant woman

20 broke down, so we took another girl who was wounded in the leg. Ibrahim

21 found another car, and he personally took us to Mehurici village.

22 When we arrived in that village, we stopped in front of the

23 surgery in Mehurici. There was a lot of people there. Everybody was

24 shouting at us, cursing us. I can't remember the exact words. However,

25 the soldiers did escort us all the way to the surgery. Dr. Ribo was

Page 1168












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Page 1169

1 there, a remarkable man he was.

2 At one moment, people were pushing to get in to take us out. He

3 stood up against them and told them, "Only over my dead body will you be

4 able to take these people out of here." He really helped us. We were

5 with him in the surgery. He helped us to take care of the pregnant

6 woman's wound.

7 Q. Ms. Tavic, may I stop you here. You were mentioning a surgeon,

8 Ibrahim, who took you to Mehurici. This Ibrahim, was he a soldier?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What --

11 A. He introduced himself to us as a commander.

12 Q. Was he a commander of the ABiH soldiers?

13 A. Yes. He bore the insignia of the BH army.

14 Q. Prior to leaving Maljine, did you notice what the ABiH soldiers

15 did in Maljine?

16 A. As they were passing through -- as I was passing through the

17 village, I could see in front of the houses that the soldiers were

18 getting into the house and out of them. In front of my house, there was

19 a lot of soldiers already. They entered houses. And the car that was in

20 the garage was already standing in front of the house. As we continued

21 walking through the village, in front of Mirko Kramar's house three men

22 were standing. One of them was Semir Prcanovic. The doctor asked

23 Ibrahim to stop. She got out of the car, and she told them, "Shame on

24 you. You have already started plundering, and we are still in the

25 village." The only thing that I took with me from the house were my

Page 1170

1 keys. When I returned to my house in 1996, I didn't even find the door

2 for that key. The only thing that I'm sorry that I lost are my photos,

3 my memories. This is as if we have never lived.

4 Q. Coming back to Mehurici, what happened to you and your group in

5 Mehurici?

6 A. As we sent the wounded pregnant woman from the dispensary, some

7 soldiers came to fetch us with a car. They transferred us to some sort

8 of a command. They brought us into a building which was the Mehurici

9 school. They took us into a room. We found a soldier there. I remember

10 that he had all the ranks, but I can't remember what his rank was. But

11 he was a regular soldier, and his composure was very professional. He

12 introduced himself to us as Sanjin from Kotor Varos. And he told us that

13 this was enough for us to know. He told us that he would ask a few

14 questions. However, he asked us some very general questions.

15 Then another person entered the room. His last name was Fazlic.

16 He was very rude. He was very impertinent. He shouted, cursed, made a

17 lot of noise. But we did not have anything to say in addition to what we

18 knew that had happened in our village. He saw that this would take him

19 nowhere, so a few hours later they released us. We wanted to see what

20 had happened to the other fellow villagers, and they took us to the

21 gymnasium.

22 In that school, when we arrived there, we saw that there was a

23 state of chaos. The people were frightened. They were asking after

24 various people. They didn't know what had happened to the people who had

25 been separated. And they told us that all the men had been separated

Page 1171

1 from the group and taken away, that they had been intercepted by the

2 Mujahedin. Smajo Tarakcija was at the entrance to the gymnasium. He

3 took our names as the representative of the civilian protection.

4 When I entered the gymnasium, two Mujahedin came up to me. They

5 started tearing the Red Cross band from me. They were talking to the

6 doctor and they asked her if she spoke English. They pointed to my neck,

7 and my uncle was also there. I managed to tear away from them. In any

8 case, there was a state of chaos in that big hall.

9 Q. You were telling the Trial Chamber that soldiers brought you to a

10 building which you identified as the Mehurici Elementary School.

11 Soldiers of which army brought you to this building?

12 A. Those were BH army soldiers. There were no Mujahedin at that

13 point. We saw them only when we got into this gymnasium.

14 Q. Ms. Tavic, I'm now going to show you a photograph. The

15 photograph will appear in front -- on the screen in front of you. And we

16 also have the respective hard copies available.

17 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Chamber and the Defence,

18 this photograph was taken in the course of the investigation against the

19 accused in the year 2002.

20 Q. Ms. Tavic, can you tell the Trial Chamber what you can see on

21 this photograph.

22 A. This is the primary school in Mehurici.

23 Q. Is this the school you are referring to -- you were referring to

24 as the building you were brought to by ABiH soldiers?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 1172

1 Q. Does the sports hall you were referring to a few minutes ago,

2 does it form part of this building or this complex of buildings?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this photograph

5 into evidence.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Madam Registrar, can you give us the number for this exhibit.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P28.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Before that, can she put her initials and the date on this

11 exhibit.

12 Madam Witness, can you put your initials and the date, today's

13 date, on the photo.

14 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please show it to the Defence.

16 Madam Registrar, what is the number then? Can you please repeat.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P28.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P28.

19 Before I give you the floor, Prosecution, the Judge of the

20 Chamber has another question to ask.

21 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Madam witness, I have two

22 questions for you. The first is the following: When the soldiers of the

23 BH army attacked your village, were there any HVO soldiers in your

24 village? That is my first question.

25 My second question: Was your brother a soldier or a civilian?

Page 1173

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In my village, there were

2 members of the HVO. There were some 20 of them, and they were all

3 locals. My brother was a member of the HVO, but ever since February,

4 when he was wounded, he was no longer active, because he had -- his legs

5 were fixed and immobile and he could only move with the help of crutches.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Witness, that

7 means that on that day your brother was not dressed in military uniform;

8 he was in civilian clothes.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in civilian. He was wearing a

10 sweatsuit. This can be proven. And later on, when his remains were

11 found, he was wearing this same sweatsuit or jogging suit.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ask -- and you told me that he

13 had crutches, because he had been wounded earlier on.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he got onto the truck,

16 he had those crutches with him?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you may

19 continue.

20 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Ms. Tavic, I'm now going to show you another photograph. The

22 photograph will appear on the screen in front of you, and we also have

23 the hard copies available.

24 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Trial Chamber and for

25 the information of the Defence, this photograph was taken in 2002 in the

Page 1174

1 course of the investigation against the accused.

2 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were refer -- sorry, you were referring to, a few

3 minutes ago, to a sports hall you were brought to. What can you see on

4 this photograph?

5 A. That is the sports hall, yes.

6 Q. For clarification, can you identify this sports hall as the

7 sports hall of the Mehurici Elementary School?

8 A. Yes, that is that sports hall in Mehurici.

9 Q. Can you please sign this photograph and date it.

10 MR. WITHOPF: And the Prosecution wishes to tender this

11 photograph into evidence.

12 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you give

14 me an exhibit number, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P29.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.


19 Q. The sports hall in the Mehurici Elementary School you just

20 identified, Ms. Tavic, how many people were there when you joined them?

21 A. There was about 350 of us, and there were also civilians from

22 another village who had sought shelter in our village. So in addition to

23 civilians from Maljine, there were those from Postinje, Podovi, Orasac.

24 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people who were in the sports

25 hall?

Page 1175

1 A. We were all Croats.

2 Q. Were these about 350 Croats detained at the sports hall -- in the

3 sports hall?

4 A. Yes. We were taken there by force. Though at the interrogation

5 they tried to persuade us that they had sheltered us there for our own

6 safety and that they would quickly take us back to our homes, as if

7 nothing had happened.

8 Q. Did you and the other detainees stay voluntarily in the sports

9 hall of the Mehurici Elementary School?

10 A. Certainly not.

11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who guarded the sports hall of the

12 Mehurici Elementary School?

13 A. For the first couple of days, there were no organised guards. In

14 the corridor leading to the gym, there were many soldiers, Mujahedin,

15 some sort of policemen. It was always crowded. However, our doctor

16 talked to one of the commanders and requested that no one be allowed to

17 enter the gym without her being notified, so that the people could calm

18 down. There were a lot of children crying and screaming. You can

19 imagine, 350 people were there. And after these requests of hers, they

20 were met and then we had regular guards consisting of two members of the

21 BH army and two policemen. They called them reservists. So that there

22 were four men at the door all the time.

23 Q. Ms. Tavic, could you identify --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Witness, you have

25 just told us, looking at the transcript, that there were officers. How

Page 1176

1 could you tell that there were officers, since you were detained in the

2 gym when these policemen were on the -- somewhere else? How did you know

3 that they were there? Did you understand the meaning of my question?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean how we knew that they

5 were in the corridor?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You mentioned the presence of

7 officers who were in the corridor somewhere else. So I'm asking you:

8 Did you see them or did someone else tell you that they were there?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them, because there was a

10 corridor from the hall and it was always full of these soldiers and

11 policemen. And from that corridor, there was a toilet that we could use,

12 which was next to the gym, so that there was a long queue. We all had to

13 wait to go to the toilet. And as we were queueing up, we could see what

14 was happening in the corridor and outside in the yard.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a last point of

16 clarification: What distinction are you making between an officer and a

17 simple soldier? How do you make the distinction between an officer and a

18 simple soldier?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question. I

20 said, to make myself quite clear, that in the corridor there were always

21 many soldiers, Mujahedin, and policemen. Is that all right now?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is not -- that doesn't

23 quite correspond. Because a moment ago you said that there were

24 officers, and now you're telling us that there were Mujahedin and

25 policemen but not officers. These were policemen?

Page 1177

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say "officers." I

2 said that our doctor wanted to talk to one of their commanders in order

3 to have normal guards there, instead of so many soldiers being there.

4 And then, after that, she spoke to one of their commanders in the

5 corridor. One of the soldiers took her to their command. She spoke to

6 them, and they promised to provide guards. And after that, we had normal

7 guards at the door, four men. Up until then, the corridor was full.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that you have been

10 guarded or that in the corridors there were Mujahedin. Were there also

11 any other ABiH soldiers?

12 A. Yes. There were many soldiers in uniform. And after the guards

13 became regular guards consisting of two soldiers and two policemen, the

14 soldiers were from the 306th Brigade. They were regulars, neat, and I

15 think they changed shifts every four hours.

16 Q. How did you get to know that these soldiers were from the 306th

17 Brigade?

18 A. I already said they wore the insignia of the brigade. These

19 guards who were guarding us, from that day up until the 24th.

20 Q. You were telling the Trial Chamber that there have been about 350

21 detainees. And you also mentioned that there were babies amongst them.

22 Can you please, in rough numbers, detail how many men, how many women,

23 and how many children.

24 A. Well, roughly, 80 per cent were women and children. The rest

25 were men, mostly elderly. Babies, I think we had about 25. I think the

Page 1178

1 youngest was under one month old and she was crying most of the time.

2 She had to be carried around, because she was a very tiny infant.

3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the food you received during

4 your detention.

5 A. For the first two or three days they would bring into the hall a

6 table and put on it pieces of bread made from flour that was used as

7 cattle feed and some cheese, pieces of cheese. And people could take as

8 much as they wanted. It was very disorderly and very poor quality.

9 After that, we asked that we distribute the food, to put some

10 order in it. And then we received two meals a day; one in the morning,

11 one in the afternoon. In the morning they would again bring in a piece

12 of bread made of this same kind of flour and quite a large can or -- tin

13 that would be shared by six. And in the afternoon again, we would get a

14 small piece of bread and some boiled rice, a spoonful, nothing more than

15 that.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the hygienic conditions in

17 the Mehurici Elementary School sports hall.

18 A. Well, you can imagine. 350 of us to one toilet and which would

19 get blocked up every five minutes or so. We had to keep cleaning it.

20 And a quarrel could get started over it because one had to queue up to

21 get to the toilet. We would get clean water towards the end, and we had

22 to ask for it because there were so many small babies that we had to

23 bathe. And we had a wounded man, and he needed to be -- his wounds

24 needed to be dressed. So in the middle of that period, we would get

25 about 5 litres of warm water to be able to bathe the babies and to treat

Page 1179

1 the wounds of the wounded.

2 Q. You were telling us that amongst the 350 detainees there were a

3 number of men. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how the men were treated.

4 A. Certainly not well. They were taken out to work during the day.

5 I don't know. They went to dig pits, to clean the sewage. At least,

6 that's what they told us when they came back. They always came back

7 dirty. Some of the men were taken out for interrogation. Some of them,

8 when they came back, had visible traces of mistreatment, but they kept

9 quiet about it because if they were to say anything, they would fare even

10 worse. So no one dared say anything. People just kept quiet and

11 suffered in silence.

12 I remember Zeljo Puselj. He had been wounded in the hand, in the

13 arm. And he was bleeding a lot. He had a serious wound. The doctor

14 wanted him to be treated immediately and taken to Zenica, but they

15 wouldn't allow that. They apparently needed him for some information,

16 and he was taken out frequently and each time he came back in worse

17 condition. And afterwards, when we were exchanged, he was transferred to

18 the hospital in Zenica. And he's an invalid to this day as a consequence

19 of that.

20 Q. Ms. Tavic, for how long have you been detained in the Mehurici

21 Elementary School?

22 A. From the 6th to the 24th of June, 1993. Sorry, from the 8th

23 until the 24th. I'm sorry.

24 Q. For how long have the other detainees been detained in the

25 Mehurici Elementary School?

Page 1180

1 A. When we were about to be exchanged, the day prior to that they

2 separated the men and took them somewhere else and said that they would

3 be exchanged in another exchange procedure. But as far as I can

4 recollect - but I cannot claim that with any certainty - but I think it

5 was only a year later that they were exchanged, or something like that.

6 Q. Do you know how and who negotiated for the exchange?

7 A. Before we were exchanged, Mr. Salko Beba arrived with a group of

8 men. He introduced himself as a man who was in charge of exchanges, and

9 he told us to be ready, that we would probably be exchanged in the course

10 of the next day. I remember that the exchange was to be in the morning,

11 and then the expectation went on until the afternoon. About 3.00 the bus

12 us arrived. We got onto them. And we were driven then towards Dolac.

13 Throughout that time, I remember we were seen off at Mehurici by the

14 local population with all kinds of shouts and curses. As we were passing

15 through Donje Maljine, I saw my village, which had already been

16 destroyed, abandoned. What hadn't been destroyed had been moved into.

17 And then I realised that we would never go back there again.

18 The exchange took place at Dolac. After that, some went to Bila,

19 some to Vitez, some to Busovaca. People did the best they could. They

20 found accommodation with relatives or friends.

21 Q. Salko Beba, the person you described of having been in charge of

22 exchanges, was he an ABiH soldier?

23 A. Yes. I know this gentleman from before, since his sister went to

24 secondary school with me. So I met him even before. I knew him.

25 Q. Did he have a rank, a military rank at this point in time, if you

Page 1181

1 know?

2 A. I really cannot remember that, because in those days I wasn't

3 interested in the military, nor was I familiar with ranks. So I am

4 unable to tell you that.

5 Q. Ms. Tavic, thank you very much. For the time being, I have no

6 further questions.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Before the break, I would like to ask the witness to tell me, if

9 she can: She told us that there were 350 of them in this gym. There

10 were elderly people. There were women. There were children and babies,

11 in fact, and that she stayed there from the 8th to the 24th, that is, 16

12 days. Is that what you told us?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the beginning when you were

15 detained, were you told why they were holding you and the babies? Did

16 you know why you were being detained?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't. I mentioned earlier

18 on that when the three of us were being interrogated, then this Fazlic

19 told us that we should consider ourselves lucky, because they had brought

20 us there to save us from our own people and that we had nothing to worry

21 about and that we could go back to our homes the next day.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are now going to

23 have a break of 25 minutes. And after the break, it will be the turn of

24 the Defence to question you as part of the cross-examination, as the

25 Prosecution has told us they have no more questions for you. So you will

Page 1182

1 be able to rest for 25 minutes, and we will be resuming the hearing in 25

2 minutes' time. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are resuming our session.

6 If I understood you well, the Prosecution does not have any more

7 questions; therefore, I'm giving the floor to the Defence for the

8 cross-examination.

9 You have the floor.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I'm Edina Residovic, and I'm

13 defending General Hadzihasanovic. I'm going to ask you a few questions

14 about the things that you have already spoken about earlier this morning.

15 First of all, Ms. Tavic, is it correct that you already had an

16 interview with the representatives of the OTP and that in 2000 you gave a

17 statement to the Prosecutor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You graduated in Sarajevo on the eve of the war; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You told us this morning - and can you please confirm it - when

22 the war started, you were in Maljine. After graduation, you did not

23 leave your village.

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. You also told us that Maljine village was divided into two

Page 1183

1 separate villages, Gornje Maljine, with a Croat population; and Donje

2 Maljine, with a Bosniak population. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Is it true that above your village there is Mount Vlasic, on

5 which there were defence lines facing the Serbian army?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Is it also true that when the troops that were manning the lines

8 up there, both the BH army troops and the HVO army troops, would go to

9 their positions from the surrounding villages and that they would have to

10 pass in the vicinity of your village? Is that true?

11 A. Only our village lads would go through our village. There was

12 another road for others, so Muslims from Donje Maljine and boys from our

13 village -- the Croats from our village could go through our village.

14 Q. So the soldiers from Gornje and Donje Maljine would go through

15 your village to go to the lines?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. To my learned friend's question, you answered that at the end of

18 1992 and particularly at the beginning of 1993, when you went to visit

19 your brother in the Travnik hospital, in Travnik you saw quite a number

20 of foreigners. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. Will you agree with me if I say that these foreigners differed

23 from the local population, both the Bosniak and the Croat population?

24 A. Yes, that's true.

25 Q. They looked Arab to you. Some of them -- or most of them had

Page 1184

1 turbans on their heads or some other head covers and they spoke a

2 language that we do not understand; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's true.

4 Q. You also stated - and can you please confirm it - that you saw

5 them in groups gathering around the Muslim charitable society which was

6 across the road from the civilian police station?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Was that the Merhamet humanitarian society, or was there a

9 humanitarian society that was founded by the foreigners?

10 A. I am not aware of the name. I know that it was a Muslim

11 humanitarian society. But who the founder of that society was, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. Is it true that on one occasion in their presence you recognised

14 a schoolmate of yours who later on finished religious school and became a

15 hodza?

16 A. Yes, I did say that to the Prosecutor in the year 2000, although

17 later on a friend tried to convince me that the opposite was true. So

18 I'm now in two minds. I don't know whether this was this gentleman or

19 not. A friend of mine, who was more familiar with the situation in

20 Travnik, told me that it was somebody else who looked very much like that

21 schoolmate of mine, so I wouldn't be able to confirm that at this stage.

22 Q. When you went to Travnik, on several occasions you noticed a

23 number of refugees who had arrived from Jajce, Kotor Varos, and the

24 Krajina.

25 A. Yes. I myself collected humanitarian aid in my village, and on

Page 1185

1 every Thursday we would take that to the secondary school in Travnik.

2 Q. I would like to move to the events that you testified about that

3 unfortunately happened on the 7th and the 8th of June in your village.

4 To the Prosecutor's question, you said that on that morning you were in

5 the makeshift dispensary that was organised by Dr. Ljuba Puselja; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes. That was on the 8th of June.

8 Q. Since the HVO lines had already fallen, some other people arrived

9 in your dispensary. They were civilians from your village. Is that also

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Also, at one moment, about 20 HVO soldiers who were withdrawing

13 from the line also arrived in your dispensary; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. At one point, as you described to us earlier this morning,

16 because of the fact that there were wounded and children there, Dr. Ljuba

17 Puselja decided to hoist an improvised Red Cross flag in order to start

18 negotiating with the army; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. And then you said that one of the ABiH soldiers, as soon as he

21 saw the flag, issued an order for the fire to stop.

22 A. Yes. A few moments later, somebody from the group shouted,

23 "Stop. Hold the fire. Stop firing."

24 Q. You were with Dr. Ljuba Puselja at the moment when the BH army

25 soldier introduced himself to you as Ibrahim from Kotor Varos, and you

Page 1186

1 thought that he was their commander; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He told you'll that they were the ABiH army and that nothing bad

4 would happen to you; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. To your request, he enabled you to look at all the houses in the

7 village in order to find other villagers who had not managed to arrive

8 safely at the dispensary; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. This all lasted a certain time.

11 A. I don't know how long it lasted. I remember that it rained

12 heavily, the roads were slippery. I was escorted by two soldiers, and we

13 went from one house to another shouting, "Is there anybody there? Come

14 out." So I wouldn't be able to tell you whether this lasted a half an

15 hour or an hour or even longer.

16 Q. You noticed that this soldier, Ibrahim, had already been a bit

17 edgy and he rushed you; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. As a matter of fact, he told you that he wanted you to hurry up

20 because he was afraid that Mujahedins would arrive and that he would not

21 be able to guarantee your safety.

22 A. Yes. Mujahedins at that time were on Greda. That was the former

23 defence line. They were shouting from up there. But it was impossible

24 to rush so many people. How could you rush the wounded?

25 Q. However, you could notice on Ibrahim that he was also restless

Page 1187

1 and that he was also afraid that the Mujahedin might arrive.

2 A. I don't know. I don't know. If I know somebody, then I know I

3 can trust them. If I don't know them, then how can I trust them? But I

4 believed that they could protect us the way civilians deserved to be

5 protected. There were a lot of them.

6 Q. To the Prosecutor's question, you answered that Dr. Ljuba Puselja

7 asked Ibrahim to give her a truck to transport the wounded and Ibrahim

8 granted that request; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then you took a truck from Franjo Pranjes and you put the wounded

11 on that truck yourself.

12 A. Yes. I was on the truck, together with a soldier, whereas others

13 were helping us pull the wounded onto the truck.

14 Q. Dr. Puselja also asked Ibrahim to allow you to accompany the

15 wounded on the truck and he accepted that.

16 A. Yes, he did indeed.

17 Q. Ibrahim also granted your request for the pregnant woman not to

18 be driven on a truck but by a vehicle, because the doctor said that the

19 truck would not be a suitable means of transportation for her.

20 A. Yes, that's true. She was in an advanced stage of pregnancy.

21 Q. Is it true that after all these preparations, at one point a

22 group of five men arrived in the village? Among them you recognised

23 three as being foreign. You thought that one of them was an interpreter

24 and one of them was a local Mujahedin. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's true.

Page 1188

1 Q. They all sported beards.

2 A. Yes, they all had beards. They wore different clothes. They

3 were very rude. They were shouting. And they were different and they

4 behaved differently than anybody.

5 Q. Ibrahim entered into an argument with them. They didn't allow

6 them to approach. However, they jumped onto the truck and they set the

7 truck in motion. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. When they arrived, I was on the truck. I was putting the

9 wounded on the truck. And then I heard an argument. One of the wounded

10 told me, "Ivanka, turn around. They're shouting. They're calling your

11 name." One of them asked me to get off the truck and I saw one of those

12 Mujahedins pulling the doctor by her arm and showing signs that he would

13 kill her. Ibrahim pulled her aside. They started quarreling, and at one

14 point they just took the truck and took it away.

15 Q. And now, a couple of questions about your arrival in Mehurici.

16 You said that together with the pregnant woman you arrived in front of

17 the surgery in Mehurici.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This was an -- the ABiH surgery; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I assume that I -- that it was.

21 Q. You said that Dr. Ribo and Dr. Puselja started administering help

22 to this injured woman; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He prevented the mob from insulting you or hurting you.

25 A. Yes. They were pushing through the door; however, he stopped

Page 1189

1 them by saying, "You can have them only over my dead body," and I'm ever

2 so grateful to him for having done that.

3 Q. Dr. Ribo was an ABiH army doctor; is that correct?

4 A. I was not aware of that.

5 Q. Immediately after having examined the pregnant woman, he secured

6 her transportation to the hospital in Zenica; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Later on, when the three wounded -- the three persons who had

9 escaped from the execution site in Bikose were brought to Mehurici, among

10 them there was one person with serious injuries. Dr. Ribo took came of

11 him and sent him to the hospital in Zenica. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. Darko Puselja, he had fainted. And I know that

13 Dr. Puselja insisted on him being treated and transferred to the hospital

14 in Zenica.

15 Q. Since you were at all times helping Dr. Puselja, you are aware of

16 the fact that all this time Dr. Ribo provided the doctor with all the

17 necessary drugs and medical equipment, all that he had at his disposal in

18 his surgery.

19 A. Yes. He would arrive and offer his help. However, whatever

20 medicines he offered, our doctor already had. So we did not need all

21 these medicines, because she already had all the bare necessities that

22 were needed for such situations.

23 Q. In the primary school, you were also visited by a member of the

24 civilian protection from Mehurici; is that correct?

25 A. I remember a member of the civilian protection from Donje

Page 1190

1 Maljine. He took our names on the first day. That's the only person I

2 remember.

3 Q. You said that later on, when order was restored, you were guarded

4 by the civilian reserve police and you were aware of that fact because

5 they had the insignia of the reserve police.

6 A. Yes, and that they told us that that's -- that was their name

7 "Reserve Police."

8 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to express to you my

9 condolences about the loss that you suffered during the war.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 The Defence of Mr. Kubura, do you wish to ask any questions?

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Kubura does

15 not have any questions to ask this witness.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

17 Prosecution, I would like to ask a few questions myself.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were in your village

20 and you helped the doctor, we could understand from your testimony that

21 there was shooting, that there was gunfire. The members of the HVO, did

22 they also open fire during that stage after some of them had been

23 injured?

24 A. During the morning hours of the 7th of June, there was no gunfire

25 in the village. There was gunfire in the neighbouring village of

Page 1191

1 Postinje. And only when one of their wounded passed through our village

2 in a car to Guca Gora, then fire was opened from Donje Maljine on that

3 car that was passing through the village. At that moment, fire was

4 returned from our lines. Until then, we did not have any incidents.

5 There were no problems at all.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So you can

7 confirm to us that fire was returned from your lines.

8 And according to your knowledge, did the enemy army, the

9 opposition army, were they wounded? Were there any casualties? You were

10 in some sort of a dispensary in a medical institution. Did they bring

11 any other wounded to your institution from the other side?

12 A. No, they didn't. While I was in Mehurici, we were visited by

13 Fadil Prcanovic. He was the president of the civilian protection. And

14 he said that luckily enough they didn't have any casualties and that all

15 the bodies that were killed on our side would be buried in our cemetery

16 according to our customs. However, this didn't come true. We still

17 don't know where they were buried.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Owing to a question put to you

19 by the Prosecution, we learnt that you graduated from a university. What

20 did you graduate in?

21 A. It was tourism and the catering industry.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

23 The Prosecution, do you have any re-examination for this witness?

24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

25 further questions in re-examination.

Page 1192

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 Your testimony is now over, as the Prosecution, the Defence, and

3 the Judges have asked you questions. We understand that this was

4 especially painful for you, because the questions related to facts that

5 affected you personally. So the Chamber and the Judges of this Chamber

6 wish to convey their condolences, as did the Defence, for the loss of

7 your loved ones who were victims of this conflict. Thank you for your

8 testimony, and we wish you a safe journey home.

9 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that the next witness

13 will be available at 11.45. But before that, I should like to address

14 two points: The first is that we have been informed this morning of a

15 motion of the Defence regarding a motion filed by the Prosecution

16 regarding the list of witnesses and the exhibits.

17 As you know, we ordered that the Defence should brief us on their

18 position before the 12th of January. The Defence has informed us of a

19 series of difficulties in connection with these documents, and they

20 indicate in particular that they still have not received from the

21 Prosecution all the exhibits. Therefore, it would be desirable for the

22 Prosecution to contact the Defence to address outstanding problems. And

23 if certain problems have not been resolved that are covered by the

24 documents of this morning, that the Prosecution address to us a response

25 to this document in writing so that we are able to make a determination

Page 1193

1 by the 12th of January.

2 A second point I should like to address has to do with the

3 procedure of producing documents which are marked for identification. I

4 have noted that those documents are first shown to the witness, and all

5 of us have a copy: The Defence, the Judges, a copy for the Registry, and

6 a copy for our legal officer. It appears to me to be useful for the

7 accused that before these documents are distributed that the accused are

8 shown those documents, for them to make their observations in writing,

9 and then that they be given to the Defence. So should the accused -- if

10 the accused say nothing, it is very difficult for them to make any

11 observations themselves to the counsel except by writing bits of paper.

12 So it would be better for them to have this document in their hands and

13 then to give them to their Defence immediately.

14 If no one has any objection, in the future, when the Prosecution

15 wishes to produce a document, the Registry will give the copies to

16 everyone, and the accused will also have copies in front of them. They

17 will write down any observations they may have and pass them on to the

18 Defence.

19 Does the Defence agree with this procedure, which can only be

20 beneficial for the accused? I should like to hear the oral response of

21 Defence counsel.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we believe that

23 that would be extremely useful, because you yourself see that our clients

24 often send us bits of paper to remind us of certain facts which are of

25 importance for their defence. And we feel that this would be very

Page 1194

1 significant for the documents that are being produced for the Court.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we fully

4 subscribe to your advice and your opinion and feel that this would be

5 very useful for our client.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Prosecution, please.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no objections

8 against such a procedure.

9 In respect to the first issue, allegedly missing documents, this

10 appears to be more of a problem of a technical nature, and the

11 Prosecution is in contact with Defence counsel to find a solution.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I take note that this

13 suggestion of the Chamber is acceptable, and we will put it into practice

14 and it will be beneficial for the Defence and the accused.

15 Regarding documents, I dare to hope that the problems that have

16 been raised will be settled, and I should like to Prosecution to let us

17 know in writing as soon as possible what its position is with regard to

18 the points indicated on pages 8 and 9, and all the requests made by the

19 Defence to the Chamber concerning points A through to F.

20 The Prosecution is telling me that the witness will be available

21 in 15 minutes' time?

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, do you allow me, please, to confer

23 with my colleague for five minutes?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 1195

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I address the

2 Court with two issues?

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let the Prosecution confer

5 amongst themselves first, and after that we will hear you.

6 [Prosecution counsel confer]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, yes.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours. I apologise. The

9 witness was scheduled for tomorrow morning, and my colleague is still in

10 the middle of the proofing session. We didn't anticipate, due to the

11 fact that the cross-examination didn't take very long, that the witness

12 would need to be called today. The witness, however, will be ready for

13 examination-in-chief at 12.30 today.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're telling

15 me that it won't be at quarter to 12.00 but, rather, at half past 12.00?

16 Because you first said he would be ready tomorrow, but now you're telling

17 me 12.30, so it's still today.

18 MR. WITHOPF: It's still today. 12.30 today.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And tomorrow you

20 plan to continue with this witness and you have another witness? How

21 many witnesses are we going to have tomorrow? Because tomorrow is the

22 last day of the year for our hearings.

23 MR. WITHOPF: We will continue with this witness tomorrow, and

24 there is no other witness for tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, the witness whose

Page 1196

1 testimony will begin at 12.30 will be our last witness for this week; is

2 that right?

3 MR. WITHOPF: That's completely correct, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Defence counsel has two points to

6 raise: Yes. The first point has to do with the next witness; namely, as

7 the Prosecutor just said, we have received the list of witnesses for this

8 week. Today only Ms. Tavic was planned for, and the next witness for

9 tomorrow. Of course, it is better to finish our work early. But it is

10 not so good that we weren't fully prepared for this witness today.

11 However, we quite agree in having the examination-in-chief today.

12 However, as the Defence doesn't know how long the examination-in-chief

13 may last, I would like to request from the Trial Chamber even if the

14 examination-in-chief is completed today, that we start the

15 cross-examination tomorrow, because we haven't brought any of the

16 documents relating to this witness with us today.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding this first point,

18 there's no problem. Because if we start at half past 12.00, the

19 examination-in-chief will take place today and the cross-examination

20 tomorrow. And as we plan to finish at 13.45, we have to plan for that.

21 So there's no problem regarding that.

22 What is your second point?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The second point, Mr. President,

24 is linked to a continuing and acute problem that the Defence is

25 confronted with and which you too have been able to take note of during

Page 1197

1 these three weeks of trial. That is the question of translation of

2 documents.

3 We have already at our own initiative had documents translated

4 which we used in this Tribunal. Following your instructions, that a

5 document which is not translated by simultaneously interpreted in the

6 courtroom, we have seen that that doesn't function too well. The

7 Prosecution would not accept this method of producing documents because

8 he hadn't seen it in advance in a language he understands, which we

9 appreciate. And we do feel it is difficult to accept a document in that

10 way. And that is why we have had to only identify two or three

11 documents, mark them for identification until they are translated; and

12 secondly, we sought to avoid producing any document which we felt was not

13 so relevant and which could be accepted without translation.

14 Following suggestions of the Trial Chamber, we have submitted for

15 urgent translation a part of the documents relating to Dusina. We still

16 haven't received the translations of those documents and we have already

17 heard about events in Guca Gora, in Brajkovici, in Miletici, and Maljine.

18 Therefore, even the documents for the first event are not available to

19 the Defence and the Trial Chamber in translation, not to mention others

20 which we still haven't given for translation, because the service simply

21 is not able to keep track in time.

22 We would therefore request, Mr. President, that the Registry be

23 asked to allow us additional hours for working translations of documents

24 which we could use for the cross-examination. This would not entail a

25 significant number of documents, and we feel that with some additional

Page 1198

1 30 hours per month for each Defence team we would be able to ensure

2 translations for all the documents that would be used in the

3 cross-examination by the Defence.

4 Otherwise, I believe that this problem will escalate and we will

5 find ourselves in a situation to which we cannot find a solution. Thank

6 you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding this important

8 problem has the Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura anything to add?

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have nothing to

10 add. This is a common position of both Defence counsels.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the opinion of the

12 Prosecution?

13 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, in respect of the last issue raised by

14 my learned colleague, the Prosecution does appreciate that translations

15 are necessary for the proceedings. This is an issue between the Registry

16 and Defence counsel, and I'm sure the parties, meaning the Registry and

17 Defence counsel, will find a solution. It would certainly be very

18 beneficial for the conduct of this trial if such translations would be

19 done in due time.

20 In relation to the first issue, Your Honours, Mr. President, you

21 already mentioned that there will be no cross-examination of the next

22 witness today. I wish to add that it would be very good to know, very

23 beneficial for the Prosecution to know in advance if the Defence could

24 give us some sort of indication how long they intend to cross-examine the

25 witness. That would certainly be very helpful for our planning and for

Page 1199

1 our planning, in order not to waste the court time.

2 In addition, I wish to inform the Trial Chamber - and this is a

3 different issue - that the Prosecution disclosed on last Friday, the 12th

4 of December, the B/C/S translation of the military expert report to the

5 Defence, and it's the understanding of the Prosecution that Defence

6 announced that within five days after the disclosure of the B/C/S

7 translation they would file a motion in respect to the military expert

8 report. To date -- the Prosecution notes that to date we haven't

9 received such a motion.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before your ruling

11 was made, we stated clearly that we would provide our response to that

12 report five days after receiving the Bosnian version. It is true that on

13 Friday, at 6.00 p.m. we received the Bosnian translation. However,

14 Mr. President, your ruling was that we should make that response by the

15 12th. We shall certainly do so much earlier than that, than the deadline

16 you have set. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Regarding the first

18 point, in connection with the military expert's report, I think there's

19 no problem. We did ask the Defence to provide its response before the

20 12th of January. If it does so earlier, all the better.

21 Regarding the question of translation of documents, it has been

22 suggested that the Registry grant an additional 30 hours per month for

23 you to be able to resolve this problem that you are having regarding the

24 translation of documents in your possession. It seems to me that the

25 Registry has already granted you a certain number of hours, but

Page 1200

1 apparently that is not sufficient. We are therefore going to contact the

2 Registry in connection with this matter, and we will see what the

3 Registry will tell us regarding this suggestion that you be granted an

4 additional 30 hours per month. It is true - and I have noted that

5 repeatedly - that within the framework of the cross-examination you have

6 documents in B/C/S, of which we have no translation, either in English or

7 in French. And the Prosecution is also in a difficult position as a

8 result, and everything is becoming complicated as a result. Therefore,

9 it would be important that when you produce a document, that the

10 Prosecution and the Chamber at least should have a translation. And I

11 think we have all seen that that has not been possible.

12 However, on the basis of the practice of the past three weeks,

13 when you produce a document, there's one or two; there's not an avalanche

14 of documents. So I think that the documents that you produce could be

15 usefully translated in advance, and that is why I asked you to inform the

16 Registry that such-and-such a document needs to be translated because it

17 is exhibited. Perhaps the Registry is very busy; yet, within the

18 framework of the cross-examination, if you have documents in support of

19 your cross-examination, it is necessary for us to be able to check the

20 questions you are asking against the documents.

21 Another solution which could be a constraint for the Defence

22 would be when you have a document in B/C/S, to communicate it to the

23 Prosecution, and if they don't have a translation of it made, then that

24 would raise a problem, because you would be in a position to disclose

25 your documents before the cross-examination and that affects your

Page 1201

1 strategy. You prefer to keep them and produce them at the last moment;

2 at least, that is my understanding of the practice of the Defence. But

3 clearly those documents need to be translated, because if you produce a

4 document and you ask a question about it, we need to be able to verify

5 the relevance and make sure that the reply of the witness is in

6 conformity with the question put relating to a document. Therefore, we

7 shall inform the Registry about this, and I shall produce appropriate

8 instructions to our legal officer that we send a memo to the Registry

9 noting the difficulties encountered by the Defence.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

11 your support and for your efforts to assist us.

12 In connection with the reply of the Prosecution linked to the

13 expert report, I would like to say that in connection with our request --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please start again.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A moment ago you instructed us

16 and the Prosecutor to cooperate in connection with our request. We have

17 received the translation of the expert report but not all the documents

18 attached to that report, and that is why I believe that this is a problem

19 that we will resolve with the Prosecution and, as I have said, we will

20 have our response ready even before the 12th of January.

21 As for the question of translation, I just wish to tell you,

22 Mr. President, that both Defence teams have been given 75 hours each for

23 translation purposes but only for the needs of the accused, which means

24 for communication with the accused. We have not been granted a single

25 hour for the translation of documents. So to clarify this situation with

Page 1202

1 the Registry, we would kindly ask that we be allowed if we don't use

2 those 75 hours for communication with the accused, that we be given a

3 maximum of another 30 hours per Defence team, which we would use for the

4 translation of documents, as I have proposed. So we haven't been granted

5 a single hour for the translation of documents. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand you

7 well, you are suggesting to the Chamber to discuss with the Registry once

8 again the question of 75 hours and whether some of those hours could be

9 switched over; is that right? Because there are two possibilities:

10 Either you will contact the Registry, or I will send a memo to the

11 Registry to draw attention to the problem. Perhaps it might be more

12 practical for you to do that first, that is, to contact the Registry in

13 that connection. And depending on the reply of the Registry, you will

14 inform us again, and then I will move on to the next stage. But I think

15 you understand that the Chamber has no control over the budget. I have

16 no personal budget from which I can grant you anything for this purpose.

17 On the other hand, the Chamber has to make sure that the rights

18 of the accused are respected and that the Defence can properly do its

19 work. And this is indeed a problem that you are facing and which the

20 Chamber is aware of. Therefore, I invite you very shortly to inform the

21 Registry about this, to ask them to respond within a short period of

22 time. And if there is no response from the Registry, you will let me

23 know officially, and I think a motion would be preferable.

24 If we agree ...

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will do as you

Page 1203

1 have advised us.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 It is ten to 12.00. We are going to have the usual break early,

4 and we will continue without a break after that. So we will resume the

5 hearing at 12.30.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have

9 requested protective measures. Can you orally explain the reasons for

10 which you requested those protective measures.

11 We are now in closed session? Are we in private session,

12 Madam Registrar?

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to confirm whether

25 you are receiving the interpretation. If you do, just say yes.

Page 1207

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Since you have requested protective measures, we have decided

4 that you will be questioned under a pseudonym, which will be AH. Your

5 face will be protected by a technical system; that means that it will be

6 distorted. Since the blinds have been pulled down, the public in the

7 gallery could not see you. So we have given you a pseudonym. So I am

8 not going to ask you your name, your date and place of birth. I'm just

9 going to ask you to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going

10 to show you. So can you please read the solemn declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter] .

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

16 We have exactly one hour. Madam Witness, you are first going to

17 be asked questions by the Prosecution. Today this may last for an hour.

18 And tomorrow you are going to be cross-examined by the Defence. So you

19 will be obliged to stay here until tomorrow. Tomorrow we shall resume at

20 9.00 in the morning.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not

22 absolutely sure, however, based on the piece that I have before this

23 Tribunal, I believe that it was the practice for a witness to write her

24 name on a piece of paper that will then be shown to us so all of us are

25 convinced that she is the witness that has entered the courtroom. After

Page 1208

1 that, this piece of paper is destroyed. So if you believe that this is

2 an appropriate procedure, I would kindly ask for you to order for this to

3 be done.

4 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, we intend to adopt a

5 similar procedure which will achieve the same objective.

6 Perhaps the Court could be shown the sheet.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp.

10 MR. STAMP: On the --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, we have shown

12 you this piece of paper for identification. If this is your name, then

13 just say yes. We are going to show this piece of paper to the Defence

14 because the Defence is right, they need to know that there is no mistake

15 in identity. And they need to know whether this is indeed you. And this

16 is the means of identification. This is the identification, but don't

17 use your name, because your personal data are confidential.

18 This is going to be under seal, because this is the only

19 identification that we have of you.

20 Madam Witness, please look at this paper and verify for us that

21 this is indeed you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

24 witness at first wanted to add something to this piece of paper. If that

25 is correct, I believe that she should actually write her full name.

Page 1209

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, we respect the

2 rights of the Defence.

3 Usher, can you please bring me this document for my verification.

4 What we can do now is for the witness to add in her own hand

5 either the first name or the family name for us to have a written

6 document.

7 Madam, on the paper that we have prepared for you, can you add

8 what you want in your own handwriting, either your name or your family

9 name.

10 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show this paper

12 to the Prosecution.

13 Can you please show it to the Defence as well.

14 To the accused.

15 Madam Registrar, can you please give me a number under seal.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P30 under seal.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then, P30 under

18 seal.

19 Madam Registrar, can you please show this document to the Judges,

20 who have still not seen it in its integral version.

21 I confirm that the witness has authenticated this document and

22 added either her own maiden family name or her married family name.

23 After we have done these formalities, we're going to proceed and

24 we are going to give the floor to the Prosecution for their questions.

25 Prosecution, make sure you don't mention the witness's name,

Page 1210

1 because the witness is protected. Try to avoid putting questions that

2 might identify her for the general public. I know it may prove to be a

3 different exercise; however, we are aware of your talents, and we believe

4 that you are going to be able to do that without any difficulties

5 whatsoever.

6 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I think you're too kind.

7 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

8 Q. Madam, could you tell us, without telling us your precise

9 occupation, in what field of endeavour that you work in.

10 (redacted)

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21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day

23 of December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.