1 Monday, 12 January 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have
6 the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will ask the Prosecution for
10 the appearances in the new year now.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
12 Counsel. For the Prosecution appear Mr. Daryl Mundis, Ms. Tecla Benjamin,
13 Ms. Kimberly Fleming as the case manager, and I, Ekkehard Withopf. And I
14 would like to use this opportunity to introduce Ms. Tecla Benjamin as a
15 new trial attorney.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances
17 for the Defence, please.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good
19 day, Your Honours. Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic is represented by
20 Edina Residovic and co-counsel Stephane Bourgon, and legal assistant,
21 Ms. Milanovic. Thank you.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.
23 Mr. Kubura is represented by Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Mr. Rodney Dixon, and
24 Mr. Mulalic, our legal assistant.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we're starting
1 this session in this new year. The Trial Chamber would like to greet
2 everyone present: The Prosecution, the Defence, and the accused. We are
3 going to proceed by hearing a witness, but before we call the witness in,
4 I would like to take stock, examine a few pending motions, and examine our
5 schedule. As you know, the Prosecution has submitted to us and to the
6 Defence a provisional schedule for the week of the 12th to the 16th of
7 January and from the 19th to the 23rd of January and from the 26th to the
8 30th of January. They have provided a list of witnesses. You may note
9 that in this new list, dated the 12th of January, 2004, the 26th of
10 January isn't scheduled for General Reinhold. That has been postponed
11 until a later date.
12 As far as the Prosecution's motion to modify its list of
13 witnesses and it exhibits, as far as this motion is concerned, the Defence
14 answered on the 18th of December and we will soon render our decision with
15 regard to this motion. But we should point out that the Defence in its
16 brief mentioned certain elements and also addressed the question of a
17 military expert for the Prosecution, although it didn't give a final
18 opinion on the so-called -- on the hearing mentioned. I'll return to that
20 So we'll render our decision soon with regard to this motion.
21 We have also been seized during the court recess and we have also
22 been provided by a motion from the Defence concerning the
23 cross-examination and Rule 90(H) and its scope. This motion is dated the
24 17th of December, and the Prosecution has provided us with its response.
25 It did so on the 5th of January. With regard to this request, we will
1 also soon render our decision.
2 And I would also like to remind you that the Prosecution wanted
3 an extension of the time limit to respond to the motion mentioned. The
4 Prosecution's response was filed on the 6th -- on the 5th of January.
5 We were also forwarded a motion to exclude the testimony of
6 witnesses from other cases. As you know this issue has already been a
7 matter of debate before this Trial Chamber. The Defence, in a request
8 dated the 19th of December, 2003 requested that the Trial Chamber rule on
9 this issue, and the Prosecution responded on the 9th of January, and the
10 question that arises is to know whether the Defence stands by its request
11 to the extent that the Prosecution has admitted that the Defence has the
12 right to make such a request. So there are two solutions: Either you
13 make no comments and we will render our decision and say that your request
14 is no longer relevant, given the Prosecution's position; or you will file
15 a new motion with the Trial Chamber and saying that your request of the
16 19th of December, 2003 has been dismissed.
17 I don't know what the Defence's position is with regard to this
18 matter, but I should point out that in a document provided by the
19 Prosecution, the Prosecution pointed out that the new version of
20 General Reinhold, there won't be any prior statements with regard to this,
21 and that there won't be any questions raised with regard to this matter.
22 So very briefly, could the Defence tell us whether it has a new position
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we received the
25 Prosecution's document with regard to this matter, and on the 12th of
1 January we responded to the question that you have put to us today. Very
2 briefly, we have accepted the Prosecution's position with regard to the
3 fact that they won't be using the testimony of the accused in the Blaskic
4 case, so that all the segments from experts reports will be annulled and
5 they will not refer to these -- to this testimony.
6 We also agree with the fact that - and this is something the
7 Prosecution pointed out - it's too early to decide today whether this
8 testimony could be used, if the accused decides to testify. Since we have
9 provided a written response to this matter, I think that the Trial Chamber
10 will be in a position to render an appropriate decision. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So as far as I have
12 understood, you have filed a written response to the Prosecution's
13 position. I haven't received this response yet. But we will decide on
14 the matter.
15 We have also been seized of -- asked to provide protective
16 measures for two witnesses, one who should be coming in the course of this
17 month and the second one, who should be appearing in February. The
18 Defence has also submitted a brief to us with regard to this matter. And
19 we will make a ruling.
20 I would like to point out that you also requested the disclosure
21 of documents pertaining to the Blaskic case, and all this is pending
22 before the Appeals Chamber. It is thus necessary to wait for the Appeals
23 Chamber decision to see whether these requests will all be granted. As
24 everyone has been working over the holiday period, the Prosecution has
25 also filed a motion concerning Rule 92 bis, which concerns witnesses who
1 could be called before this jurisdiction, within the scope of Rule 92 bis.
2 The Prosecution has therefore provided us with this list of witnesses, and
3 the Defence filed its response and stated that it was opposed to the list
4 for Witnesses 15, 21, 131, and 82. So we will be deciding on the matter
5 as soon as possible. But I should point out that it is not a matter of
6 urgency, but we will soon address this matter, since we have all the
7 elements that are relevant to the issue.
8 And finally, the Prosecution has filed with us and also provided
9 a corrigendum, because they noted that there were footnotes and references
10 that contained errors, and this document provides corrections to the
11 errors that were observed.
12 So you've had the Prosecution's document; you received it on the
13 19th of December. There are amendments -- there are changes that were
14 made in footnotes which concern the references.
15 So I have briefly gone over the pending motions. I don't think I
16 have forgotten to mention any elements. These motions will therefore be
18 Does the Defence have any comments to make? But I should point
19 out that with regard to the archives of the European Union, I don't have
20 any elements. Perhaps the Defence has received other elements since that
21 time. You may take the floor.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would first of
23 all like to say that in your decision, you have bound the Defence to
24 express its position by the 12th of January with regard to the findings of
25 the military expert too. In accordance with your decision, we have also
1 provided a written response today, and this is one of the requests that is
2 outstanding, and we discussed this before court recess.
3 As far as the documents are concerned, the European monitors's
4 documents, I would briefly like to inform you about the measures that the
5 Defence has so far taken -- has so far taken in order to examine these
6 documents, since the Defence considers that this is of extreme importance
7 for the defence of our clients and also for the proceedings. According to
8 your decision, dated the 15th of December, we took certain measures on
9 several occasions. We contacted the general secretary of the Council of
10 Europe and the Mission of the European Observers, the European Observers
11 Mission in Sarajevo, in order to discuss with them how it might be
12 possible to gain access to these archives.
13 On the 5th of January, we were informed by the European Monitors
14 Mission in Sarajevo that they were not at all familiar with the decisions
15 of the Trial Chamber, and at their request we provided them with a copy by
16 fax, and with regard to this response we also contacted the office of
17 Mr. Solana, the general secretary, in order to talk to those responsible
18 about this issue. Mr. Miller [phoen] was absent, but we were also
19 informed that he would be phoning us at a later date. To date we haven't
20 received a response from Mr. Miller, but we have had contacts with other
21 people in positions of responsibility.
22 On the 6th of January, we contacted the Registry in order to make
23 sure that the decision of the Trial Chamber was forwarded to the general
24 secretary, Mr. Solana, in accordance with the Trial Chamber's order, and
25 on the 7th of January, the Registry informed us that that decision had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 been forwarded on the 23rd of December, 2003.
2 We continued to contact all those responsible in an attempt to
3 obtain a decision as soon as possible with regard to access to the
4 archives, in order to respect your decision that access to the
5 archives -- that this matter should be completed by the 30th of January of
6 this year.
7 This morning, when speaking to a responsible person in Brussels,
8 we were informed that they had received the decision only yesterday and
9 that we didn't have to contact the ambassador in Sarajevo. We were told
10 that we would soon be receiving a response. We were informed that the
11 Trial Chamber's decision was that we should have access to the archives by
12 the end of January. We're going to continue on insisting on this contact,
13 but the situation today is as stated in the written response that we
14 received from Brussels this morning. Thank you.
15 With regard to this issue, Mr. President, if we are granted the
16 possibility of examining the archives, for the sake of examining all the
17 documents rapidly and efficiently in the archives - and there are tens or
18 hundreds of thousands of documents in the archives - for this reason, we
19 would probably request the Trial Chamber pause -- have a break in the
20 proceedings for two days so that the teams could go and examine these
21 documents as soon as possible.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Concerning the suspension
23 of the proceedings for a two-day period, I have noted -- I have observed
24 that in the schedule there is a day when there is no hearing scheduled
25 because of technical maintenance in the courtroom. So we already have one
1 day that could be used. But since there are three of you - or in fact,
2 there are six lawyers for the Defence - it's sufficient for two -- that
3 two representatives of the Defence go to examine the archives and the
4 others can stay here.
5 But as you know, in our decision, we have a deadline for a
6 response from the European Union. But if there is no response, we will go
7 into the following stage, which will be a matter of issuing an order, a
8 binding order. So I think that this should be dealt with as rapidly as
10 The Trial Chamber thanks you for all your attempts to find a
11 solution as rapidly as possible to this matter and so that you may be
12 granted access to these documents, enabling the case to proceed
13 efficiently, both for the Prosecution, the Defence, and naturally for the
15 Is there anything that the Prosecution would like to comment on
16 before we call the first witness in?
17 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, Mr. President. Very briefly. Two
18 observations: The first concerns the Defence response to the Prosecution
19 motion to amend its list of witnesses and exhibits. The Prosecution has
20 meanwhile provided Defence counsel with a complete list of all documents
21 given to the military expert, and the Prosecution has also provided
22 Defence counsel with copies of all documents given to the military expert.
23 The second issue concerns the motion for protective measures for
24 the Witness ZA, which was filed on the 7th of January, 2004. There's a
25 slight correction to be made. In paragraph 9(A) of this motion, the
1 Prosecution is making reference to the fact that the witness was a
2 Bosniak. In fact -- that the witness -- the witness is a Bosniak. In
3 fact, the witness is of Croat ethnicity. This fact, however, doesn't
4 change the motion for protective measures at all.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So on page 3 of the
6 document mentioned, paragraph 9(A), "the witness is a Bosniak" should be
7 replaced by the words: "the witness is a Croat"; is that correct?
8 MR. WITHOPF: That's correct, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Thank you. [Interpretation] Very well. So
10 having stated this matter for the sake of our work, we're going to call
11 the first witness in. And I would like to ask the usher to call the
12 witness in.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, can you
15 hear us?
16 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you hear the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As you have already
21 testified at a previous hearing, we won't ask you to spell your name or to
22 take the solemn declaration. So you will just continue with your
24 So let us start with the questions.
25 WITNESS: KATICA KOVACEVIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Examined by Mr. Withopf: [Continued]
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Kovacevic.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, on the 10th of December last year, before the
6 winter break, you informed the Trial Chamber, amongst other things, about
7 details of the attack on Miletici on the 24th of April, 1993, the
8 treatment you and the other villagers received during and after the attack
9 from the attacking troops, and you also informed the Trial Chamber of the
10 selection of Franjo, Tihomir, and your brother, Vlado Pavlovic, to kneel
12 You also identified the houses of Stipo, Srecko and Ivo Pavlovic.
13 Mrs. Kovacevic, today I wanted to continue where we had to
14 discontinue on the 10th of December last year. Prior to finishing your
15 testimony on the 10th of December, you said that you and other villagers,
16 with the exception of Franjo, Tihomir, and your brother, Vlado Pavlovic,
17 you were lined up two by two to go to Mehurici. The question is: Did you
18 actually go to Mehurici?
19 A. Yes, we did. We went to Mehurici.
20 Q. How far is Mehurici from Miletici, roughly?
21 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly in metres or kilometres, but
22 it's not that close. I don't know, but it's not close by. It takes more
23 than half an hour on foot.
24 Q. Very well. Did you go voluntarily to Mehurici, you and the other
1 A. They tied our hands, and they lined us up in a column, two by
2 two, and they took us there. No one asked us whether we wanted to go or
3 not. They just lined us up and took us to Mehurici.
4 Q. Who are you referring to when you say "they lined us up"?
5 A. I'm referring to the Muslim army, those people who had come to
6 attack our village.
7 Q. Did ABiH soldiers escort you whilst you were walking to Mehurici?
8 A. Yes. Some of them went with us; others stayed behind.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Mr. President, in
10 answer to the Prosecutor's question, the witness answered that -- "did it
11 apply to the Muslim army that took us there." However, later on in the
12 question the Prosecutor used words that the witness didn't use. So that
13 is our objection. So could the wording of the question be changed,
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, if my recollection isn't wrong, the
17 witness on the 10th of December identified the Muslim army, the army she's
18 referring to today, as the ABiH; however, I'm prepared to change the
19 language of the question.
20 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, I'll repeat the question. Did the Muslim
21 soldiers escort you whilst you were walking to Mehurici?
22 A. Some men went with us in uniform. We were under shock, and we
23 couldn't really turn around, but in any case they did escort us down there
24 as far as Mehurici.
25 Q. Did soldiers from the attacking army stay behind in Miletici?
1 A. I don't know. Some did stay behind in Miletici. Some went with
2 us; some stayed behind. We couldn't turn around and look.
3 Q. The soldiers who stayed behind, did they stay behind with
4 Franjo Pavlovic, Tihomir Pavlovic, and your brother, Vlado Pavlovic?
5 A. I just turned around and saw my brother and these three men on
6 their knees. Some of them stayed behind. I didn't look around. I just
7 looked at my brother. I saw them kneeling, and then I continued along my
9 Q. A different issue, Mrs. Kovacevic: Franjo Pavlovic, did
10 Franjo Pavlovic have a car?
11 A. Yes, he did. He had a Fico, a small Fiat.
12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to this car on the
13 24th of April, 1993?
14 A. The car was taken away while we were up there. It was taken
15 away, and I don't know anything more about it.
16 Q. Do you know who took it away? I'm not referring to the name, but
17 do you have any idea who took it away?
18 A. I don't know exactly, but I know that a gentleman came and he
19 asked Franjo, "Whose car is this?" And he said, "It's mine," and he
20 brought his keys and he took it away, he drove it off.
21 Q. The gentleman you are referring to, Mrs. Kovacevic, has he been a
22 Muslim soldier?
23 A. I didn't see any insignia on him. I can't remember. I don't
24 know whether he was a soldier or not. I don't know. I can't say. I
25 don't know.
1 Q. In Mehurici, Mrs. Kovacevic, what happened to you after you
2 arrived in Mehurici?
3 A. When we arrived in Mehurici, they took us to a house. The women
4 were put up separately, and the men were separated from us.
5 Q. After the separation, what happened to you and the other women?
6 A. In that house, we women were there and we waited to see what
7 would happen to us. We knew nothing about our men. And then ...
8 Q. Yes. And then ...?
9 A. Well, we waited there, and then Ribo Suljo came, and he
10 negotiated with them that they release us and he negotiated. And then a
11 bus came to fetch us, and they took us up there to a village called Luka.
12 Q. After the 24th of April, 1993, when you had to leave Miletici,
13 can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you came back to Miletici?
14 A. Yes. We returned to Miletici, but I don't know whether it was a
15 Sunday or a Monday, but we did go back there. And when we arrived, we saw
16 our dead, and then UNPROFOR arrived.
17 Q. May I just interrupt you here, Mrs. Kovacevic. You're not sure
18 whether it was a Sunday or a Monday. In terms of a concrete date, was it
19 the next day, the 25th of April, 1993, or the 26th of April, 1993, or a
20 different day?
21 A. No. I don't know the exact day, whether it was a Sunday or a
22 Monday, but no other date. It couldn't have been any other date. I'm
23 just not sure whether it was Sunday or Monday.
24 Q. What day was it when the attack was executed on the 24th of
25 April, 1993?
1 A. It was Saturday.
2 Q. The Sunday or the Monday you are referring to, is it the Sunday
3 or the Monday following the Saturday of the attack?
4 A. We were down there at Luka, and then we went up there. I don't
5 know whether we spent the night at Luka. And we went to the village. But
6 whether it was a Sunday or a Monday, I really can't remember. It was one
7 of those two days. I just don't know. But we did go to the village,
8 myself, my mother, father, sister, and some other villagers.
9 Q. Just for clarification, Mrs. Kovacevic, there was no week between
10 the day of the attack and the day you went back to Miletici? Was it
11 either the next day or the day after?
12 A. I think it was the next day. When we were taken to Mehurici, it
13 was Saturday. Then we were in Luka. And then the next day, Sunday. But
14 I am not sure. I don't know whether it was the next day or the day after,
15 the Monday. I can't remember exactly. But I think it was Sunday that we
16 went back to the village.
17 Q. Very well. Prior to you going back, Mrs. Kovacevic, had you
18 received any information in between, meaning after you had left and prior
19 to coming back?
20 A. Yes. UNPROFOR told us at Luka. We asked, "What happened to our
21 people in the village?" And they said that they had been killed.
22 Q. When you came back to Miletici, either on the 25th or the 26th of
23 April, 1993, were there still Muslim soldiers in Miletici?
24 A. When we came from Luka to the village, there was one Muslim
25 soldier at the entrance to the village as we came, and then several came
1 to the village but we were still in a state of shock and we saw our dead
2 there. But at first I did see one of them at the entrance to the village,
3 as we arrived.
4 Q. The first soldier you've seen and the other ones you've seen in
5 Miletici at the day of your return, were these local Muslim soldiers or
6 foreign Muslim soldiers?
7 A. I am unable to tell you that, whether they were local or foreign.
8 I just don't know.
9 Q. Did these soldiers look like the Mujahedin you were describing in
10 your testimony on the 10th of December last year?
11 A. No. No. They didn't look like that.
12 Q. What did you do once you went back to Miletici?
13 A. When we came to Miletici, we first went to the house where our
14 dead were. And then we went to our own house. We spent most of the time
15 in the centre of the village. We were standing around and waiting to see
16 what would happen to us. We didn't do anything else.
17 Q. You first went to the house where your dead were. Which house
18 was it, Mrs. Kovacevic?
19 A. It was Ivo Pavlovic's house.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Can I please ask the registrar to recall the
21 Exhibit P22 and to show it to the witness.
22 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether
23 this photograph shows the house of Ivo Pavlovic you were just referring
24 to? The photograph will within a few moments also appear on the screen in
25 front of you.
1 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
2 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much.
3 Q. Inside this house on this photograph of Ivo Pavlovic, what did
4 you see?
5 A. Inside I saw our dead in the room on the ground floor, and they
6 were covered with blankets.
7 Q. Whom are you referring to when you are saying "our dead"?
8 A. I'm referring to Tihomir Pavlovic, Vlado Pavlovic,
9 Franjo Pavlovic. I didn't look any more. I just looked at my brother. I
10 saw him and Tihomir, and I didn't dare look on, because they were closest
11 to the window. They were the first I saw.
12 Q. How far away have been the bodies of Tihomir Pavlovic,
13 Vlado Pavlovic, and Franjo Pavlovic when you had a look from the window?
14 A. Well, maybe 2 or 3 metres from the window. I can't tell you
15 exactly. I just saw them through this window.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether the faces of the bodies of
17 the dead you were just referring to could be seen.
18 A. Yes. I saw Tihomir and Vlado's faces, and I didn't see others,
19 but I did see the two of them.
20 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, I'm now going to show you a number of photographs
21 and I wish you to tell the Trial Chamber whether you can identify the
22 individuals shown on these photographs.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, these photographs have already been
24 tendered into evidence under seal in the course of the testimony of a
25 witness who testified in closed session. I will therefore tender again
1 into evidence the very same photographs. I have been advised by the
2 registrar that in such a situation the photographs should be tendered
3 under the same exhibit number; however, with a .1 at the end. With your
4 permission I'm now going to do so.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please
6 remind the Chamber and the Defence and the accused what was the exhibit
7 number of these photographs.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, we actually have the photographs with
9 us. We can show you -- we can show the photographs via Sanction. And we
10 also have hard copies of the very same photographs with us. And the
11 exhibit numbers were P23 through P27.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So they were
13 admitted under Exhibit Numbers P23 to 27. So the Prosecution is now going
14 to show these photographs, P23 to 27, to the witness. So the photographs
15 that are going to be shown to the witness will retain the same exhibit
17 MR. WITHOPF: I actually would like to show the witness first the
18 photograph Exhibit Number P27.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have five photographs.
20 So the usher is going to place under the ELMO P27.
21 The Defence.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the
23 photographs are shown, the Defence doesn't really see what the purpose of
24 the Prosecutor is in showing these photographs to the witness, though we
25 are not objecting to this particular fact. These photographs have already
1 been identified and admitted into evidence.
2 Secondly, the photographs were made seven days after the event,
3 and the witness said that she saw the faces of her brother.
4 Thirdly, this is the witness's brother, and I really don't see
5 that it is necessary to upset the witness once again by showing her these
7 And those are the reasons why we feel that it is unnecessary to
8 show these exhibits again.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But as the Defence knows,
10 it is up to the Prosecution to prove the facts. The burden of proof is
11 with the Prosecution. And on the one hand, the witness needs to formally
12 identify her brother as well as the other victims. I think that was the
13 intention of the Prosecution, to confirm through this witness the accuracy
14 of the identification of the victims, including her brother. Therefore,
16 The usher is going to show the witness photograph P27. Should
17 the usher have the photograph in his hands?
18 So we have P27 on the screen now. Put your question, please.
19 MR. WITHOPF:
20 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber the body of
21 whom you can see on this photograph.
22 A. On this photograph, I see the body of Vito Pavlovic [as
24 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown the Exhibit Number
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the photograph shown
2 to her, could she identify in handwriting the name of the person. Could
3 she write it down. Because in the transcript she says that she saw the
4 body of Vito Pavlovic. So she should mark that down.
5 Madam Witness, will you please write down on the photograph that
6 this is a photograph of Vito Pavlovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said I saw the body of
8 Mr. Stipo Pavlovic.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Because on the
10 transcript it said "Vito," so that's an error in the transcript. So it's
11 Stipo Pavlovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please also put down
14 today's date, 12th of January, 2004.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher is going to show the
17 document now to the Defence and the accused.
18 So my conclusion is that the Prosecution wishes to tender this
19 document as identified by this witness, but the exhibit number will remain
20 the same, that is, P27. Is that right?
21 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, I would suggest to call it P27.1.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P27.1.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness now, please, be shown the
2 photograph or the exhibit P24.
3 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber whom you
4 can see on this photograph.
5 A. On this photograph, I see the body of Tihomir Pavlovic.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So, Witness, will
7 you please write down on that photograph the name of Tihomir Pavlovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And also today's date, the 12th
10 of January, 2004.
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher will now show this
13 document to Defence counsel, as well as to the accused.
14 Mr. Registrar, will you give me the exhibit number now, please. I
15 suppose P24.1?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P24.1.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown the very same
18 exhibit once again, P24.1.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Usher, pick up the
20 document again, please, and show it once again to the witness.
21 MR. WITHOPF:
22 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, you just have said that you have seen the face of
23 Tihomir Pavlovic. On the photograph in front of you, you will see a wound
24 in the face of the person you identified as Tihomir Pavlovic. The day you
25 went back to Miletici, did Tihomir Pavlovic have the very same wound in
1 his face?
2 A. I didn't see that through the window. I saw this other side.
3 But I heard from our people - and others can confirm it - that
4 Tihomir Pavlovic did have this wound on his face. But I didn't see it
5 with my own eyes; others did, and they spoke about it.
6 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness now, please, be shown the
7 photograph, Exhibit P25.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But before we do
9 so, could the usher give Mr. Registrar document P24.1.
10 So we will now show the witness document P25.
11 MR. WITHOPF:
12 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, can you inform the Trial Chamber whose body you
13 can see on this photograph.
14 A. I can see the body of Franjo Pavlovic in this photograph.
15 Q. Can you please date and sign it once again for the Chamber.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the name of the person that
17 you have identified, that you have recognised.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document will be shown to
20 the Defence now. To the accused.
21 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for the exhibit.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P25.1.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you. Can the witness now, please, be shown
24 Exhibit P26, ERN 02032398.
25 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, can you please again identify the body on this
2 A. I can see the body of Ante Petrovic in this photograph.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Can you please again date and sign it and
4 write the name of the body on the bottom of the photograph.
5 A. [Marks]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher will show the Defence
7 this exhibit. And the accused.
8 And, Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for the exhibit.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number is P26.1.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, please proceed.
11 MR. WITHOPF: And can the witness please be shown the exhibit,
12 photograph P23.
13 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, we know that this is a very difficult situation
14 for you, but can you please identify the person which is shown on this
16 A. The person in this photograph is Vlado Pavlovic.
17 Q. You mentioned, Mrs. Kovacevic, that you've seen the face of your
18 brother, Vlado Pavlovic, on the 24th of April.
19 A. Yes. I saw the face of Vlado Pavlovic from the window. But it
20 was at some distance. I didn't see the face clearly. I only saw it from
21 the window, and then I left. I didn't look at it any longer.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, given that she has
23 mentioned the name and the date, could you show this document.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P23.1.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Mr. Withopf.
4 MR. WITHOPF:
5 Q. How far away have you been when you have seen the face of your
6 brother, Vlado, and for how long have you seen it?
7 A. Well, I saw my brother from the window of the house. I only had
8 a look through the window. I didn't go in there at all. A minute ago I
9 said what the distance was, 2 or 3 metres. I don't know exactly. But all
10 I can say is that I saw him through the window.
11 Q. And --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, could we now
13 return to the first photograph of the house. Because I'm under the
14 impression that there are a number of windows, and a window has been
15 mentioned but the Trial Chamber would like to know which window is being
16 referred to exactly, since the building consists of a number of floors and
17 it would be useful to pinpoint the exact window.
18 Witness, on the basis of the photograph of the house, would you
19 be able to tell us which window is concerned exactly?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's this window here, this one,
21 behind this column.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, when you
23 saw the victim through the window, you were standing then between -- at
24 the site between the two poles; is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. I was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 standing between the two poles by the window here. Yes. I saw him
2 through the window.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Everyone has noted
4 that there are two poles, and the witness told us that she was between the
5 two poles. There is a window between the poles, and it is from this
6 position that she saw the body. Isn't that correct?
7 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the matter is a
9 lot clearer now.
10 Mr. Withopf, please continue.
11 MR. WITHOPF:
12 Q. For how long have you seen the face of your brother, Vlado?
13 A. I only saw him through that window, and then I turned to where my
14 mother and sister were. I didn't look at him for long, because I wasn't
15 able to do so.
16 Q. All right. Moving on to a different issue, Mrs. Kovacevic, and
17 it won't take long from my side any more. After you went back to Miletici
18 on the 25th or the 26th of April, 1993, were the houses in Miletici still
20 A. No. They had broken into the houses, and my house had been
21 broken into. The door had been broken down. We entered the house,
22 but ...
23 Q. But ...? Yes, please.
24 A. We went into the house, my mother, my sister, and myself. My
25 father was there too. And as UNPROFOR told us that we wouldn't be staying
1 there, we went in to take some things that we needed. We took some
2 photographs and some clothes and we returned to the village.
3 Q. You were just informing the Trial Chamber that your house had
4 been broken into. What was the situation in respect to the other houses
5 in Miletici?
6 A. I didn't look around, but I heard from other local villagers that
7 they had broken into the houses. But I didn't go from house to house,
8 because we were still in a state of fear. I entered my house, I collected
9 some of my affairs and returned to the village.
10 Q. When did you then finally leave Miletici?
11 A. We left on that day. As I said a minute ago, I don't remember
12 exactly whether it was on the 25th or the 26th, but we left with UNPROFOR
13 on that day.
14 Q. Since then, did you ever go back to Miletici?
15 A. No, I never went back to Miletici.
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mrs. Kovacevic.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, for the time being I have no further
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf, your
20 examination-in-chief for this witness has therefore been completed? Have
21 I understood this well?
22 MR. WITHOPF: That's the correct understanding, yes.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will now proceed
24 with the cross-examination, but we will have a break first of all, to
25 allow the witness to rest.
1 And, Witness, after the break - which will last for 25
2 minutes - the Defence for the accused who are here will cross-examine you.
3 And if necessary, the Prosecution may ask you some questions again. But
4 before we suspend the session, before we adjourn, the Trial Chamber has a
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you left with
8 UNPROFOR. When you looked at the victims through the window, was UNPROFOR
9 present at that time?
10 A. No. UNPROFOR wasn't there when we arrived and when I first saw
11 those bodies. UNPROFOR wasn't present at that time.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how long after did they
14 A. I can't remember after how much time UNPROFOR arrived. I don't
15 know exactly. All I know is that we were in the village for some time
16 before they arrived.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 It is half past 3.00. We'll have a 25-minute break, and we will
19 continue at five to 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. President, please.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll continue.
25 But the witness must be brought in.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence may take the floor.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mrs. Kovacevic.
6 A. Good day.
7 Q. My name is Edina Residovic and I represent the general,
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic. I'll put a certain number of questions to you, and
9 please answer if you can.
10 I would just like to ask you to make a brief pause after my
11 question, wait for the English interpretation to finish, and then you can
12 answer my question, so that everyone present in the courtroom - and the
13 Trial Chamber in particular - may be in a position to follow our
14 conversation. Have you understood me?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 Is it correct, Mrs. Kovacevic, to say that your village is in the
18 municipality of Travnik and was in the municipality of Travnik before?
19 Witness, have you understood me?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness -- witness, have you
21 heard the question put to you by the Defence?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood the question, but
23 I wasn't sure whether I had to answer the question immediately.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is your village located in the municipality of Travnik?
1 A. Yes, it is in the municipality of Travnik.
2 Q. Is it correct to say that the village of Miletici consists of
3 Gornji and Donji Miletici, two hamlets?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Is it correct to say that before the war there were about 40
6 Croats, 40 inhabitants in the village, and there were between 25 and 30 in
7 April 1993? Is that correct?
8 A. I think that at the time of the attack against the village there
9 were between 25 to 30 of them. But before the attack, to be quite frank,
10 I don't know how many inhabitants there were.
11 Q. Is it correct to say that in the other hamlet there were four
12 families named Suljic, Brace [phoen], Avdo, Dedo and Akif? Is that
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Is it correct to say that both hamlets were in a mountainous
16 region, on the slopes of Vlasic Mountain?
17 A. I'm not able to answer that question. I know that the lower
18 village of Miletici, where these brothers lived, was below our village,
19 but I don't know. I know they were below our village and we were up in
20 the hill, a little further up.
21 Q. Mount Vlasic is above your village; isn't that correct?
22 A. Well, I don't know. Above our village -- Mount Vlasic is on the
23 other side of our village.
24 Q. Very well. It's not important.
25 In December, in response to a question put to you by the
1 Prosecution, you said that up until that time your relations with your
2 Muslim neighbours were exceptionally good; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it's correct. We didn't have any problems until that day.
4 Q. However, you will agree with me if I say that as early as March,
5 and especially after the massacre in Ahmici, guards were set up in the
6 village. Isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes. People went on guard duty in the village, but I don't know
8 what you mean, whether it was on that account. But people did go on guard
9 duty in the village.
10 Q. However, in addition to that, your good relations with your
11 neighbours -- in spite of that, your relations with your neighbours from
12 Donji Miletici did not deteriorate; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes, they did not deteriorate.
14 Q. You are aware of the fact that the Suljic brothers were members
15 of the BH army; is that correct?
16 A. I don't know whether they were members of the BH army. I
17 couldn't say. But all I know is that they came up to our village. But I
18 can't answer that. I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you. But men fit for military service from your village
20 were HVO members and they were part of the Frankopan Brigade, whose
21 command was located in Guca Gora; is that correct?
22 A. To be quite frank, I couldn't say. I know that my brother didn't
23 go anywhere. He didn't go to any battlefields. I know that he went on
24 guard duty in the village, but he didn't go to any battlefields.
25 Q. In response to a Prosecution question in December, you said that
1 on the 24th of April Pero Suljic came to the village to warn you about the
2 threat posed by the Mujahedin, who had been seen in the vicinity of the
3 village; isn't that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. When he told you that according to his information the Mujahedin
6 had gone to the nearby village of Skradno, which is about an hour on foot
7 from your village, and he said he hoped that they wouldn't attack the
8 village; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes. He said that the Mujahedin had gone to the Skomorje
10 village, not the Skradno village but the Skomorje village. And he said
11 that if anything happened to us, they would protect us.
12 Q. While you spoke about whether the Mujahedin might come or not,
13 one of the Suljic brothers, together with Franjo Pavlovic, went to inform
14 the command in the village of Mehurici of the possibility of the Mujahedin
15 arriving; isn't that correct?
16 A. Well, to be frank, I don't know. I was in the village, but we
17 were in a state of panic and I really don't know. I don't know whether he
18 went down there with him.
19 Q. You also said that soon after their arrival there was shooting
20 around the village, and you took shelter in Stipo Pavlovic's house. Is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Stipo Pavlovic was the only person to return fire from his house.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. When the attackers threw a grenade -- they then threw a grenade
1 and Stipo died and his wife, Lucija was wounded; is that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. When you were leaving the house, you saw that one of the
4 attackers had also been killed; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. You then saw that there were foreigners, called Mujahedin, among
7 the attackers and they were speaking a foreign language and they had
8 beards; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There were some local Muslims with them too, and you knew that
11 they had join the Mujahedin; is that right?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. The local Muslims wore ski masks or they had camouflage paint on
14 their faces; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. I don't know whether they had these ski masks, but they had
16 camouflage paint on. As far as their faces are concerned, yes, that's
17 correct. But I didn't pay that much attention to it, since I was in a
18 state of shock.
19 Q. Apart from these faces that had camouflage paint on them, you
20 didn't notice any other insignia on them; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And the attacker who was killed, he was also camouflaged. But
23 you recognised one of the young men who had joined -- one of the local
24 young men who had joined the Mujahedin. Is that right?
25 A. I don't think that attacker was wearing camouflage paint. We
1 left the house and we passed by him. That was in the middle of the
2 village. But I don't know if you can understand this, but we were in a
3 state of shock and -- well, I don't know.
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. I really won't insist on you telling us
5 anything that you can't remember for sure. However, on that day, the
6 brothers Suljic, Dedo, Akif and Avdo who were with you, they were wearing
7 civilian clothes and they weren't carrying arms; is that correct?
8 A. I can't remember. I don't think they were armed, but I do think
9 that they were in civilian clothes. But to tell you the truth, I can't
10 really remember how they were dressed. I don't think they were in
11 uniform. They were in -- they were wearing civilian clothes.
12 Q. At one point one of the Mujahedin hit one of the inhabitants of
13 your village, a Croat, and Akif Suljic intervened; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. At that point the Mujahedin hit Akif Suljic in the head with the
16 butt of his rifle; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, he did. I don't know that person who hit him, but I know
18 that he did hit him.
19 Q. And made him bleed?
20 A. Yes, I think that's correct.
21 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Prosecution, both in
22 December and today, you said that your hands had been tied up and that
23 they took you in the direction of Mehurici. At the same time, Dedo and
24 Akif Suljic were taken in the direction of Mehurici and their hands had
25 been tied up too. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. I don't think I said that they had been tied up. I can't
2 remember exactly whether I said that, but I don't think I did.
3 Q. Well, this is my question now. But they were taken to Mehurici
4 with you; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. I can't even remember that detail. I can't remember
6 whether they were taken there with us. It's difficult for me to remember
7 everything. That happened some time ago. I think you can understand me.
8 Q. Yes, absolutely. And I'm sorry to have to distress you again,
9 but it's my duty to ask you to answer the questions, if you know the
11 While you were still in the village, can you remember or do you
12 know whether they called one of the Mujahedin Ramadan?
13 A. I can't remember that. I don't know. I don't know.
14 Q. When you arrived in Mehurici, you were taken to a house where
15 Serbs used to live before and which was also under the control of the
16 Mujahedin; is that right?
17 A. I don't know whether the Mujahedin controlled them, but yes, we
18 were taken to that house. Who controlled it, I don't know.
19 Q. That is where they separated the men from the women, as you said,
20 and it was only several hours later, about midnight, that you were
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. When you were released - I think you can answer this question,
24 and I hope you will - were at the same time two Serbs released and a
25 Muslim who had also been detained in these houses by the Mujahedin? Do
1 you remember that?
2 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know anything about that. To be
3 quite frank, I don't know about those things.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
5 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, my learned colleague just put in the
6 question that the house was guarded by Mujahedin. The witness has
7 answered the question to the contrary, that she does not know whether the
8 house was guarded by Mujahedin.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you rephrase the question,
10 please, regarding who was guarding the house.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there's no
12 need for me to ask that question again, because the witness said she
13 didn't know, which means that she cannot say who was guarding it. So to
14 repeat the question I think would be superfluous. I don't wish to bother
15 the witness by tiring her with -- by insisting on questions she cannot
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To satisfy everyone, let me ask
18 the witness.
19 Madam Witness, and for the benefit of the Judges, to the best of
20 your knowledge did you know who was guarding the house?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who held that house.
22 We were brought there during the night. We were inside. And I said a
23 moment ago - and I'm saying again - I don't know who held that house, who
24 controlled it.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue please.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].
2 Q. When you were released, you saw Ribo Suljo, your pre-war teacher
3 of geography in the elementary school in Mehurici; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Ribo Suljo was wearing the uniform of the army and he was a
6 member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 A. I don't know that. I don't know whether he was in uniform and
8 whether he was a member, but he did negotiate with them our release.
9 Q. Well, that was precisely my next question. Ribo Suljo was one of
10 the people who negotiated with the Mujahedin that they release you; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Ribo Suljo and other members of the army ensured a bus with which
14 they transported you to the village of Luka; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Actually, Ribo Suljo and others wanted to provide better shelter
17 for you elsewhere, and he put you up in a house next to his, the house of
18 his grandparents in the village of Luka; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. That night you were guarded by members of the army; is that
22 A. I don't know who guarded us. I know that we were in that house.
23 Now, who was outside and who guarded us, I don't know. I just know that
24 we were in that house.
25 Q. Mrs. Kovacevic, I have no further questions for you. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do Defence counsel for
2 Mr. Kubura have any questions for this witness?
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence for
4 Mr. Kubura has no questions.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Has the Prosecution any additional questions, in view of the
7 questions put by the Defence counsel?
8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no
9 further questions.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Madam Witness, you came to The Hague at the request of the
12 Prosecution. You have answered questions from the Prosecution, as well as
13 from the Defence. The Chamber noted these questions revived painful
14 memories for you, and we fully appreciate that the questions caused you
15 some suffering and this was trying for you, but it was necessary for you
16 to come and testify in this case. The Chamber thanks you for coming, and
17 we wish you a safe journey home since you already came in December. We
18 would like to ask the usher to accompany you out and we would like to
19 convey to you our condolences once again for your family loss.
20 Mr. Usher, please accompany the witness out of the courtroom.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we continue with the
23 next witness, I should like to come back to a small procedural issue.
24 We noted a moment ago that the Prosecution produced photographs
25 which had already been admitted into evidence. We found that the
1 procedure took some time because it was necessary to authenticate the
2 identity of the persons on those photographs, to have the photographs
3 initialled, to show those photographs to the Defence and the accused, and
4 all this takes time, especially if we have to do it again with other
5 witnesses. So if the Defence is agreeable, we could proceed in the
6 following manner: Using the computerised system, the witness can look at
7 the screen, authenticate the photograph on the screen, and then the
8 transcript would register this authentication by the witness. This
9 procedure would, of course, apply for witnesses of the Prosecution as well
10 as for witnesses of the Defence, when their turn comes and when they call
11 witnesses. And in this way, we will all save some time. Since the
12 photographs had already been admitted, the number remains the same and
13 there's no need to give it a new exhibit number. Is there any objection
14 on the part of the Defence against this procedure?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the beginning we
16 drew attention to this fact. Exhibits that have already been admitted
17 into evidence probably need not to be re-admitted.
18 Secondly, the fact of death was admitted by the Defence before
19 the beginning of the proceedings, so there's no need to reconfirm certain
20 facts again during the hearing itself.
21 Thirdly, if we have such a procedure that you are suggesting,
22 then the Defence can immediately say that we can confirm that the witness
23 will identify those persons. In order to economise, there's no need to
24 waste time by showing them again. But I do believe that we all have to
25 bear in mind the emotions of the witness, who is certainly upset by this
1 whole procedure. And for this reason, the Defence fully agrees with your
2 suggestion. Thank you.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, the Prosecution is much in favour of
4 such a procedure; however, the statement just made by my learned colleague
5 is not completely correct. It's not about identification only; it's also
6 about the witness given a chance and giving a description of certain
7 wounds on the bodies of the victims. The Defence has only stipulated to
8 the fact that the persons named in the indictment are dead, and to nothing
9 else. The Prosecution case goes beyond that, and it is at least an issue
10 for sentencing at a later stage of these proceedings. Therefore, these
11 photographs have to be shown to the witnesses, but they can be shown in
12 the manner just -- as just said by you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case, that
14 is how we will proceed. I just wish to specify that we had a situation a
15 moment ago which could repeat itself, that the witness was shocked by
16 seeing these photographs. And if such witnesses need any psychological
17 support, we should plan for it following the hearing. So this is a fact
18 that we all have to bear in mind, because we see that some witnesses, at
19 least, can be deeply shocked when they are shown exhibits reminding them
20 of the dramas that they lived through. Therefore, we shall continue with
21 the examination of the next witness of the Prosecution.
22 Mr. Usher, will you please bring in the next witness.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam. Can you
25 hear the interpretation?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell the
3 Chamber your full name, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Andja Pavlovic.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell me your
6 date of birth.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd of June, 1963.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where were you born?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Cukle, Travnik.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is your
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a retiree. I'm a pensioner.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your residence?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Grubisno Polje.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called by the
16 Prosecution to testify on facts of which the accused have been charged.
17 You need to take a solemn declaration, and will you please read the text
18 in your native language that will be handed to you by the usher.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 WITNESS: ANDJA PAVLOVIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
24 Madam, at first the Prosecution, who are seated on your right,
25 will have some questions for you; after that, after those questions put by
1 the Prosecution, the Defence counsel for the accused, who are seated on
2 your left, will have some questions for you; and, if necessary, the
3 Prosecutor have will some additional questions after that; and the Judges,
4 who are in front of you, if they so wish, may also ask you questions at
5 any point in time. And therefore, it is under these conditions that your
6 testimony will take place.
7 Without wasting any more time, I would like to ask the
8 Prosecution to start with the examination-in-chief of this witness.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Have you ever been married?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us the date you were married and to whom you were
17 A. I can't remember the exact date when I was officially married.
18 It was on the 25th of December, 1992 [as interpreted], and I married
19 Franjo Pavlovic.
20 Q. Witness, upon being married to Franjo Pavlovic, where did you
22 A. In Miletici.
23 Q. For how long did you reside in Miletici?
24 A. For ten years.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there's an
1 error in the transcript. I think the witness said that she married in
2 1982, and here it says 1992.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1982.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, when did you get
5 married, in 1982 or 1992?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1982.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you for that clarification.
8 Q. Witness, when the war broke out in Bosnia, you were living in
9 Miletici at that time; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber the events leading
12 up to the commencement of the war in Bosnia as it related to your life in
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. Well, let's start with the situation prior to the war. Can you
16 please describe for the Trial Chamber the ethnic composition of the
17 village of Miletici.
18 A. I lived in the area inhabited by Croats, and a little further
19 away, about a kilometre and a half away, were the Muslims.
20 Q. Did the area where the Muslims lived have a name?
21 A. Miletici. Yes.
22 Q. And can you please tell us briefly about the state of relations
23 between the Croats and the Muslims in Miletici prior to the commencement
24 of the war.
25 A. Relations were good.
1 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when those relations changed?
2 A. Not until they attacked Miletici. But until then, everything was
4 Q. Prior to the attack on Miletici, did you notice anything unusual
5 in the area around Miletici?
6 A. Yes. When I went to Cukle, in Jezerce, when I went to see my
7 family, I saw some Mujahedin sitting in front of a house. And if I went
8 to Travnik, I would see them near the school in Mehurici, the Mujahedin.
9 Q. Witness, can you tell us what you mean by "Mujahedin." What does
10 that term mean to you?
11 A. The Mujahedin, foreign soldiers, foreign Muslim soldiers who had
12 come there.
13 Q. How did you know these people were foreign Muslim soldiers?
14 A. They had a different accent. They spoke differently. And their
15 appearance differed from our Muslims.
16 Q. Can you please clarify what you mean by "their appearance
17 differed." How so?
18 A. They were darker. They were much darker. Their faces, the
19 colour of their skin was much darker than that of our Muslims.
20 Q. Witness, do you recall the first time you saw any of these
21 Mujahedin? You've told us where, but do you recall the approximate month
22 or year when you first saw these people?
23 A. Towards the end of 1992.
24 Q. I'd like to focus your attention now on the spring of 1993,
25 Witness. At that time, were you still living in Miletici with your
1 husband, Franjo Pavlovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you have anyone else living with you, any other family
4 members residing with you in your house at that time?
5 A. Yes. Yes. My husband's brother, my husband's mother and sister,
6 and my children with were us.
7 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when your children were relocated
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber where your children went
11 and approximately when they went there.
12 A. We took the children a week before that to Cukle to stay with my
13 husband's sister.
14 Q. Witness, when you say "a week before that," what are you
15 referring to?
16 A. About seven days earlier, I took them to my husband's sisters at
18 Q. Let me try to clarify my question. You say "seven days earlier."
19 Seven days earlier than what?
20 A. Before the attack on Miletici, when they killed our people.
21 Q. Do you recall the date of the attack on Miletici?
22 A. The 24th of April, 1993.
23 Q. And it was seven days prior to the 24th of April, 1993 that your
24 children were taken to Cukle; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'd like you to focus your attention on the 24th of April, 1993.
2 Can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were on the morning of
3 that day and what you were doing.
4 A. I was at home. It was a Saturday. I was cleaning the house, as
5 I always do.
6 Q. Do you know where your husband was on the morning of the 24th of
7 April, 1993?
8 A. My husband went to plough the fields. It was the planting
10 Q. Was he ploughing the fields owned by your husband and yourself,
11 or was he ploughing someone else's fields?
12 A. He was ploughing for our neighbours.
13 Q. What was the name of the neighbours whose fields your husband was
14 ploughing on the 24th of April, 1993?
15 A. Mande [phoen] Pavlovic's fields and Sreco Pavlovic. And he was
16 finishing off at Sreco Pavlovic's fields.
17 Q. Did your husband, once he was finishing ploughing or helping the
18 neighbours plough their fields, where did your husband go?
19 A. He came home to have a bath, and then he would go back to Sreco's
20 for dinner.
21 Q. Do you recall approximately what time he came home to have a bath
22 that day?
23 A. It was about ten to 6.00.
24 Q. You told us that he was -- he would then go back to Sreco's for
25 dinner. Why was he going to Sreco's for dinner?
1 A. Because it is customary when you're helping somebody in the
2 fields, then you have dinner at his place at the end.
3 Q. Did your husband in fact go to Sreco's house for dinner on the
4 24th of April, 1993?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Why not?
7 A. Well, because he returned home to have a bath and we went to have
8 coffee. And when he had a look through the window, he saw that something
9 strange was happening outside.
10 Q. Can you tell us what the strange thing that was happening outside
12 A. When he had a look through the window, he saw Ana Petrovic crying
13 and he saw Dedo Suljic behind Ivo Pavlovic's house.
14 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber where he saw these
15 individuals. Where were they in the village?
16 A. In front of Ivo Pavlovic's house. And Ana Petrovic was behind
17 Ivo Pavlovic's house.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'd ask that the witness be shown a
19 photograph. This is a photograph I would ask the witness to make some
20 markings on, so it's not one that we have at this point electronically.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This photograph has never been
22 tendered into evidence then?
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I stand corrected. We do have an
24 electronic copy, and a previous witness identified certain features on
25 this photograph. However, we would ask this witness to make a number of
1 markings on the photograph, and so I think perhaps in this case it might
2 be better to have a fresh copy of this photograph.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
4 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I would ask that
5 that be placed on the ELMO, please, and that the witness be provided with
6 a fine-tip marker.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently we don't have a pen
8 for the witness.
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. Witness, I would ask you to look at the photograph either on the
11 screen in front of you or to your right, and I would ask you if you can
12 identify what is shown in this photograph.
13 A. It's the village of Miletici.
14 Q. First let me ask you, Witness: Do you see anywhere in this
15 photograph the home that you and your husband, Franjo Pavlovic, lived in
16 on 24 April 1993?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I would ask you, Witness, on the photograph to your right, if you
19 would please take the black marker and circle your house.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Now, Witness, if you could draw a line upwards and to the right
22 into the green area and place the number "1" by the house that you have
23 just circled, which was your house.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thank you. Witness, you told us that your husband saw some
1 people outside the window. Can you please -- or do you see the spot on
2 this photograph where those people that your husband saw out of the window
3 were assembled?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you please point to that spot where you saw the people
6 assembled, or your husband saw the people assembled.
7 A. This is where he saw Ana Petrovic, here, and this is where the
8 others were.
9 Q. Okay. Witness --
10 MR. MUNDIS: For the record, the witness has marked two X's.
11 Q. Can you please put the initials "AP" next to the "X" indicating
12 where Ana Petrovic was standing.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you, Witness.
15 MR. MUNDIS: It perhaps might be convenient for this photograph
16 to remain for the moment with the witness, as I will ask her to mark
17 additional information on the photograph as we continue with her
19 Q. What did your husband -- what, if anything, did your husband say
20 once he saw these people assembled in the late afternoon, early evening of
21 24 April 1993?
22 A. He said that something bad was happening, since Ana was crying,
23 something was wrong.
24 Q. What, if anything, did your husband do after making this comment?
25 A. My husband and I then went to where these people were.
1 Q. Approximately what time was it when you and your husband went out
2 to where the people were standing?
3 A. It was about 6.00.
4 Q. Can you tell us, if you recall, what the weather or lighting
5 conditions were at that time on that day?
6 A. It was a beautiful day. It was sunny.
7 Q. What happened after you and your husband joined the small number
8 of people at the location that you've marked with the X on the photograph?
9 A. When we got there, he asked Ana Petrovic, "What's happening?
10 What's going on?" She said that Dedo Suljic had arrived and said that the
11 Mujahedin had gone around the village.
12 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when additional people came to
13 this spot in the village?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Approximately how long did you remain with your husband at this
16 point in the village?
17 A. We got there. I stayed on. And then my husband asked me, he
18 asked Dedo, "Dedo, what's going on?" And he said, "The Mujahedin have
19 gone behind the village," but he didn't know where they were going.
20 Q. Did your husband remain at that location, this spot that you've
21 marked with the X on the photograph?
22 A. Yes. But Dedo's brother, Avdo came, and he told my husband,
23 Franjo, that they should go to Mehurici to see whether the people in the
24 command knew where the Mujahedin had gone.
25 Q. Approximately how far is it from Miletici to Mehurici?
1 A. I think it's about 3 kilometres.
2 Q. Witness, you just told us that they were going to see whether the
3 people in the command knew where the Mujahedin had gone. Do you know
4 which command they were referring to?
5 A. The Muslim command.
6 Q. Did your husband in fact go in the direction of Mehurici at that
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. At the time your husband left, approximately how many people had
10 gathered at the spot marked with the X on the photograph?
11 A. Well, by the time he left for Mehurici, there were about 30 of us
12 who had gathered there.
13 Q. On April 24th, 1993, do you know approximately how many people
14 lived in the village of Miletici?
15 A. There were about 30, 32 or 33 of us. That's how many of us there
16 were when we arrived there.
17 Q. So, Witness, is it fair to say that virtually all of the
18 villagers of Miletici were gathered at this location at that time on the
19 24th of April, 1993?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us, please, what happened after your husband
22 departed in the direction of Mehurici.
23 A. When he went off with Avdo Suljic, not more than five minuted had
24 passed when shooting started from all directions. They started shooting
25 at us from all directions.
1 Q. Witness, do you know who was shooting at you?
2 A. It was the Muslim army. The Muslims were shooting at us.
3 Q. How do you know it was the Muslim army?
4 A. I know because when they started shooting, Dedo climbed up onto a
5 wall of a stables that had been broken down and he started swearing and
6 saying that they shouldn't fire, that Dedo Suljic was there. And he told
7 us that we should flee -- that some of us should flee to Stipo's house and
8 that some of us should take shelter in Ivo's house.
9 Q. Do you know or do you have any indication as to who Dedo Suljic
10 was talking to when he stood up on the wall and shouted?
11 A. To a Mujahedin.
12 Q. Do you recall whether Dedo Suljic referred to any of the
13 Mujahedin at that time by any names?
14 A. Yes. He told Ramadani not to fire because Dedo Suljic was there.
15 He called his name out.
16 Q. Did there come a time when you later saw an individual by the
17 name of Ramadani?
18 A. Yes, I saw him.
19 Q. You told us, Witness, that Dedo Suljic told you that you should
20 flee to Stipo's house. Did you in fact flee to Stipo's house?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Looking at the photograph to your right, do you see
23 Stipo Pavlovic's house?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you please take the black pen and circle Stipo Pavlovic's
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Can you please draw a line straight up into the green area and
4 place the number "2" next to the line connecting Stipo Pavlovic's house.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Witness, you also indicated that Dedo Suljic said that some of
7 the witnesses should take shelter in Ivo's house. Again, looking at the
8 photograph, do you see the house of Ivo Pavlovic in the photograph to your
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you please circle the house of Ivo Pavlovic.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Can you please draw a line downwards into the green area and
14 place the number "3" next to the house that you've marked or circled as
15 Ivo Pavlovic's house.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Thank you, Witness.
18 MR. MUNDIS: I would now ask that the witness be shown two
19 electronic exhibits, which have been previously admitted into evidence.
20 The first one bearing ERN number 01247883, previously marked as
21 Prosecution Exhibit 20.
22 Q. Witness, do you see that photograph on the screen in front of
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you please tell us what Prosecution Exhibit 20 is a
1 photograph of.
2 A. This is Stipo Pavlovic's house.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness -- I don't have the
5 photograph on the screen any more. No, the previous one, P20.
6 Witness, you have the photograph in front of you. There is a
7 house with an entrance on the ground floor and above there seem to be two
8 swords drawn on the wall and the word "Jajce" beneath it. What does this
9 emblem represent? What does this sign represent?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you don't know what the
12 inscription means or what the two crossed swords mean with a white stripe
13 and a blue background? You don't know what this represents?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. That wasn't written there
15 before. It was written there afterwards. That wasn't on the house
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So with regard to this
18 inscription, you are telling us that it was made at a subsequent date and
19 that the time you were living there, on the 24th of April, that
20 inscription was not there?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
25 just like to draw your attention to the fact that there is some confusion
1 with regard to the number of the document that we can see. The document
2 we see on the screen is marked P20; whereas, on the list that we were
3 provided with, according to our documents, the document would be P21. If
4 this could just be verified, Mr. President, if possible.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Registrar.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In fact, what we have in the
8 archives, in the registry's archives is marked as P21. So when the
9 Prosecution presents a document, a photograph that has already been
10 tendered into evidence, could they mark it correctly. Otherwise, this
11 will give rise to confusion.
12 I would like to thank the Defence for drawing attention to this
14 Please continue.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 I would ask now that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 22.
17 Q. Prosecution Exhibit 22 is now on the screen. Witness, do you
18 recognise --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please check
20 that it is P22.
21 Please go ahead.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. Witness, Prosecution Exhibit 22, a photograph, is now visible on
24 the screen in front of you. Do you recognise what is shown in P22?
25 A. Yes. This is Ivo Pavlovic's house.
1 Q. Thank you. Witness, you've told us that you went into the house
2 of Stipo Pavlovic. Do you know or can you tell us the names of any other
3 villagers who fled into Stipo Pavlovic's house on the 24th of April, 1993?
4 A. Yes. Katica Pavlovic, Marija Pavlovic, Tihomir Pavlovic,
5 Vlado Pavlovic, Lucija Pavlovic, Stipo Pavlovic, and Ana Pavlovic,
6 Tihomir's sister.
7 Q. Where in the house of Stipo Pavlovic did these people go?
8 A. We went into the corridor and then into a room adjacent to the
9 corridor. Stipo and Lucija Pavlovic remained in the corridor.
10 Q. Can you tell us what happened shortly after you entered the house
11 of Stipo Pavlovic.
12 A. We entered the house and Stipo shut the door. He said that the
13 Muslims would kill us. They shouted out that they wouldn't, because Dedo
14 said they didn't know where the Mujahedin had gone, they said that they
15 wouldn't do anything to us. He locked the house up and took a rifle. He
16 said that they shouldn't shoot. They said that they would kill us.
17 Q. What happened next?
18 A. When they locked the house, the Muslims came to the door. They
19 started banging on the door and they started shooting.
20 Q. How long did the shooting last?
21 A. Well, not for very long.
22 Q. What happened after the shooting stopped?
23 A. Stipo then also started shooting in the direction of the door.
24 Q. At the time, was Stipo inside his house or outside of his house,
25 when he started shooting?
1 A. In the corridor. He was in the corridor; that's where Stipo was,
2 in the house.
3 Q. How long did Stipo shoot from the corridor of his house?
4 A. Not for very long, and then he stopped.
5 Q. What happened after Stipo Pavlovic stopped shooting?
6 A. When he stopped shooting, the Muslims broke the door down and
7 they threw a grenade in. It must have been a grenade. Something exploded
8 in the corridor. There was smoke, then as if a tyre had been burning.
9 Q. What was the reaction of the people in Stipo Pavlovic's house
10 when this explosion occurred?
11 A. We screamed and we were crying. Lucija started crying at the
12 same time and said that she, Lucija, had been wounded, that Stipo had been
14 Q. What happened after Lucija made these comments?
15 A. Well, when Lucija said this, we were crying and two Muslim
16 soldiers entered the room we were in.
17 Q. Do you recall what these soldiers were wearing?
18 A. One was wearing a black T-shirt, and the other one had a police
19 insignia on his hand.
20 Q. Were either of these individuals wearing any kind of insignia
21 that -- by which you were able to identify the organisation or military
22 units that they might have been affiliated with?
23 A. No. But when I went outside, I saw that someone had a band
24 around his arm and it said "BiH." There were three letters. And I didn't
25 see any other insignia. I didn't notice anything else.
1 Q. Do you know if the soldier who is -- the two soldiers who entered
2 Stipo Pavlovic's house, do you know if they were local Muslims or if they
3 were foreign Muslims?
4 A. One was a Mujahedin for sure, since he didn't know how to speak.
5 He started shooting at a person and he shouted out, "Outside. Outside,"
6 because he didn't know our language.
7 Q. Once these soldiers entered Stipo Pavlovic's house, what did the
8 group of people in that house do?
9 A. Well, we went outside. We fled outside, because he was shooting
10 and shouted out and said we should go outside. We went outside, because
11 in the corridor we saw Stipo on the ground and Lucija was crying by his
12 side. We jumped over Stipo and went outside.
13 Q. And where in the village did you go? When you say you went
14 outside, where did you go?
15 A. We went to a place between Stipo and Ivo's house.
16 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the usher return the photograph,
17 the aerial photograph that the witness was previously marking.
18 Q. Witness, in the photograph to your right, do you see the location
19 where you went when you exited Stipo Pavlovic's house?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness take the pointer and
22 point to the location where the individuals who had been in
23 Stipo Pavlovic's house assembled after they left that house.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 Q. Can you please take the black pen, place an "X" and circle the
1 "X" at the location where you gathered after leaving Stipo Pavlovic's
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Witness, after the group assembled at the location with the
5 circled X, what happened next?
6 A. When we came out there, then the people who had been in
7 Ivo Pavlovic's house came out too, and they started cursing us because we
8 had apparently killed a Muslim.
9 Q. And when you say, Witness, "they started cursing us," who was it
10 that was cursing you at that point?
11 A. Muslims.
12 Q. The people who had been in Ivo Pavlovic's house, where did they
13 go once they left Ivo's house?
14 A. They came to the same spot as we had gathered at, those of us who
15 had been in Stipo's house.
16 Q. Approximately how many people were gathered at the spot that you
17 have placed an X on and circled? How many villagers were at that spot at
18 that time?
19 A. There were about 29 or 30 of us, because my husband was not with
20 us then.
21 Q. At that point in time, Witness, do you know where your husband
23 A. He was with Avdo Suljic, because he said that they were going to
25 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the group of 29 or 30 of you at
1 the location with the circled X.
2 A. The Muslim soldiers told us that we should go to our houses and
3 collect weapons and bring them there, because those people who don't bring
4 weapons would be immediately executed.
5 Q. Approximately how many Muslim soldiers did you see at that point
6 in time?
7 A. I don't know. I can't tell you exactly, but there may have been
8 15 to 20 of them or -- I don't know.
9 Q. Do you know if of these 15 to 20 there were local Muslims or
10 foreign Muslims or a combination of both?
11 A. Both. There were both. Both of them were there.
12 Q. Can you describe the type of clothing worn by these 15 to 20
14 A. They were wearing camouflage military clothes. But not all of
15 them. They were not all in military uniforms. Some were in civilian
17 Q. You told us that the Muslim soldiers said that you should go to
18 your houses. In fact, did that happen?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please describe how it was that you went to your houses.
21 A. I set off towards my house, and Ramadani set off with me. And
22 when I reached a point between Ivo's house and my own, there's a small
23 stream there. I was very frightened, and he pushed me with his rifle but
24 he said, "I won't kill you. I won't kill you," but he wasn't speaking
25 properly. He wasn't speaking our language properly.
1 Q. Did you in fact return to your home with the man you've
2 identified as Ramadani?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you do at your house and how long were you there?
5 A. I reached the house with Ramadani. He was behind me. I found
6 the rifle that we had received. And I said, "Should I bring the
7 ammunition as well?" And he said I didn't need the ammunition, just the
9 Q. How long did you remain in your house?
10 A. A couple of minutes, just to pick up the weapon, and then I went
11 out again.
12 Q. Where did you go when you left your house?
13 A. I was between Ivo's and Stipo's house, because that is where they
14 had spread out some canvas, military canvas, and they told us to put the
15 rifles on it.
16 Q. Did there come a time when the other villagers from Miletici
17 again congregated at the spot where you drew the X with the circle?
18 A. Yes. Because those who had weapons went back to their homes to
19 bring them and came back with them to their same spot.
20 Q. Do you recall approximately what time it was when you returned to
21 that spot and placed the rifle on the canvas between Ivo's and Stipo's
23 A. I can't say exactly. Maybe an hour or two had gone by. About an
24 hour. I think that's how long it took to do all this. It was about 7.00,
25 I think.
1 Q. How long did you remain at that location?
2 A. Not long. They started cursing us for killing this one person,
3 and the man who had come into the house and who had shouted, "Out. Get
4 out. Get out," he said that all of us should be slaughtered.
5 Q. Were you then taken or removed to a different location?
6 A. Yes. But then they tied us up. And when they tied up our hands
7 behind our backs, then Avdo brought my husband back to the village.
8 Q. Was your husband brought to the location where you and the other
9 villagers were gathered?
10 A. Yes. Because Avdo came and said, "I am Avdo Suljic." And then
11 this Muslim came up to him and told him to go back. Then my husband
12 followed him, and then this one came up to him and said, "You, Franjo, you
13 go back. You are not a Muslim."
14 Q. And what happened after those words were said?
15 A. Avdo went home, and Franjo stayed with us. Then they tied us up,
16 and then they separated the men from the rest of us.
17 Q. Do you recall approximately how many men were separated from the
18 rest of you, the rest of the group?
19 A. They took away my husband, Franjo, Tihomir, Vlado, and Anto when
20 we brought the weapons. Then one of them raised his hand and said that
21 there should be five of them. And then this other one said
22 that -- pointed to the house where Stipo had been killed, and then they
23 said it was all right.
24 Q. The four men that you've just identified, Franjo, Tihomir, Vlado,
25 and Anto, you told us that they took them away. Where did they take them?
1 A. They separated them from us and they ordered them to kneel down
2 in front of Ivo's house, Franjo, Tihomir, and Vlado. However, Anto was
3 taken away. I don't know where they took him.
4 Q. How long did you then remain after seeing the men taken away and
5 placed in a kneeling position?
6 A. Maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because they were separated from us,
7 ordered to kneel down, while the rest of us were ordered to move on
8 towards Mehurici.
9 Q. Did you in fact then proceed towards Mehurici?
10 A. Yes. But Dedo Suljic and Akif went with us, but they were not
12 Q. How many people were in the group that was tied and taken towards
14 A. I don't know, about 25, I think.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I'm about to go
16 into a different area, and I do believe it's close to the normal recess
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you are quite right. We
19 are going to adjourn now for technical reasons for 25 minutes, and we will
20 resume at five to 6.00.
21 Can the Prosecution tell me how much more time they need for the
23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I will certainly review my notes
24 during the break, but I would anticipate between 10 and 15 minutes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 10 to 15 minutes?
1 Would three-quarters of an hour be sufficient for the
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For Defence counsel for
4 General Hadzihasanovic, that will be sufficient.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. President. Microphone.
7 Microphone, please.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.28 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. Let us
11 have the witness brought in, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor once
14 again to the Prosecution to complete their examination-in-chief.
15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Witness, just before the break, you told us that the group of
17 about 25 people from Miletici was marched in the direction of Mehurici.
18 Did you in fact go to the village of Mehurici?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you do or what did the group do upon arriving in
22 A. When we arrived in Mehurici, some people were yelling that we
23 should be taken to the school, and another group that we should be taken
24 to Poljanice.
25 Q. Who was -- you say "some people were yelling." Who were these
2 A. Muslims.
3 Q. What were these people yelling?
4 A. They were shouting that we should be taken to Poljanice, and
5 others that we should be taken to the school, because it looked like a
6 celebration there. There were so many people at Mehurici. Some people
7 were saying, "Let them go. They're not to blame for anything." Others
8 were cursing us. We didn't really pay attention as to what they were
10 Q. Do you know -- when there was references to the school, do you
11 know which school these people were referring to?
12 A. The school for children in Mehurici.
13 Q. Do you know on April 24th, 1993 to what use that school was being
15 A. While children were still going to school, they went there. And
16 when school stopped, the Muslim army used the school.
17 Q. Did you in fact go to the school in Mehurici, or did you go to
19 A. No. We went to Poljanice, to a Serb house. We were taken there.
20 The men were taken to the stable, and us, we were put into the basement of
21 a house.
22 Q. Was there anyone in the basement of the house when you arrived
24 A. There were two Serb women there.
25 Q. How long did you remain in that house?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. We stayed there three, four, five hours. I don't know. Maybe
2 until after midnight.
3 Q. Where did you go after you left that house?
4 A. We went to Luka, where the Muslims were, because Ribo Suljo came
5 to say allegedly that he had got us released from the Muslim army, and
6 then he took us to Luka, to some Muslim houses.
7 Q. How long did you remain in the Muslim houses in Luka?
8 A. When we reached the Muslim houses at Luka, it was Sunday. And
9 then Monday we returned to our homes in Miletici.
10 Q. How did you return to Miletici?
11 A. We left because the Muslims at Luka were saying that we shouldn't
12 go to Miletici because there were Muslim soldiers there. But we still
13 decided ourselves to go to our village of Miletici.
14 Q. How many of you decided to go to the village of Miletici?
15 A. All of us. There were about 25 or 26 of us there.
16 Q. How did you get from Luka to Miletici?
17 A. We went on foot.
18 Q. What is the approximate distance from Luka to Miletici and how
19 long did it take to walk there that day?
20 A. About 15 minutes.
21 Q. And approximately how far is it, in terms of distance?
22 A. If you take a shortcut, it's not so far, about 2 kilometres.
23 Q. Approximately what time on the morning of Monday, 26 April 1993
24 did you arrive back in the village of Miletici?
25 A. It was about 10.00 or 11.00.
1 Q. When you arrived in Miletici, did you see anyone that you knew
2 upon your arrival?
3 A. I saw Dedo Suljic.
4 Q. On that occasion, did you say anything to Dedo Suljic?
5 A. He asked us why we had come to the village and who had let us
6 come. And I asked him what he was doing there anyway.
7 Q. Did you tell Dedo Suljic why you had returned to the village?
8 A. Yes. We said we had come to see where our people were, those who
9 had been killed, who had been left behind in Miletici.
10 Q. At that point, did you know that people had been killed in
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How did you know that?
14 A. Because UNPROFOR went to Miletici on Sunday, and on their way
15 back they told us that our people, who had stayed behind in Miletici, had
16 been killed.
17 Q. Upon arrival that morning in Miletici, where did you go?
18 A. When we arrived there, I asked Sreco Pavlovic, "Where are our
19 dead?" He told me they were in Ivo's house but not in Stipo's house, that
20 they had been transferred to Ivo Pavlovic's house.
21 Q. Did you in fact on that morning go to Ivo Pavlovic's house?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you saw when you entered
24 Ivo Pavlovic's house.
25 A. When I entered the house, I saw five dead bodies wrapped in
1 blankets. I started uncovering them. The first was Tihomir. I saw it
2 wasn't my husband, and I went on. Then the second one was Stipo Pavlovic.
3 When I reached the third person, I saw, when I uncovered him, that it was
4 my husband, and then I didn't go any further than that.
5 Q. Witness, I understand that this may be difficult, but can you
6 please describe for the Trial Chamber the condition of your husband's body
7 when you uncovered it on that morning.
8 A. My husband was on his stomach, and his head wasn't facing down
9 but to the left. In any case, I couldn't see his face. I saw blood round
10 his neck and a wound on his back and his hands were tied behind the
11 back -- his back. I took off his watch and wanted to turn him around but
12 Sreco came in and told me to get out. "What was I looking for?" He said.
13 Q. Did you see any other unusual marks or indications of any
14 specific types of wounds on your husband's body?
15 A. At the time I didn't, but later on, when my brother came to
16 Nova Bila, when I saw the photographs, I saw on the photographs that there
17 were other wounds on him, because I wanted to turn him around but I
18 couldn't. I didn't have the strength to do that at that point in time.
19 Q. Can you tell us what other wounds you saw on these photographs.
20 A. I saw that he had a shot next to his eye, that his eye had come
21 out, that he had a wound on his chest, and that he had knife wounds on his
23 Q. Witness, I would ask you now if you could turn again to the
24 photograph on the ELMO to your right.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the
1 Prosecution whether they intend to show the photograph of her husband to
2 the witness. If there is no challenge regarding his condition, it is the
3 opinion of the Chamber that it is not really necessary to refresh memories
4 of this personal drama by showing photographs of the witness's husband, as
5 this is not challenged by the Defence, everyone agrees that her husband
6 was killed. Does the Prosecution wish to show the lady, who is also an
7 indirect victim, the photograph of her husband?
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution had originally
9 intended to do so. However, in light of events transpiring with respect
10 to a previous witness, the Prosecution was not going to show those photos.
11 We were going to move on to a final series of questions concerning the
12 aerial photograph of Miletici, which is on the ELMO to the witness's
13 right, and that would then conclude the direct examination.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will be
15 showing her an aerial photograph.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Which is the same photograph that she's previously
17 made several markings on, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, on the photograph to your right, do you see the house
19 where Tihomir Pavlovic lived?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Can you please take the black marker and circle the house where
22 Tihomir Pavlovic lived.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Can you please place the number "4" next to the circle that
25 you've just drawn on the photograph.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Witness, on the photograph, do you see the house of
3 Anto Pavlovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you please circle the house of Anto Pavlovic.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Please place the number "5" next to the circle of the house of
8 Anto Pavlovic.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Do you see the house where Vlado Pavlovic lived in the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please circle that house.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Please place the number "6" next to the house that you've circled
16 where Vlado Pavlovic lived.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Witness, can you please tell us who else lived in the house
19 marked number 6 with Vlado Pavlovic.
20 A. His parents, his sister, Marija, and his sister, Katica, and his
21 brother, Filip, who was in Switzerland at the time.
22 Q. His sister Katica subsequently married and is no longer known as
23 Katica Pavlovic; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what her name -- her married name
1 is, please.
2 A. Kovacevic.
3 Q. Witness, can you please tell the Trial Chamber who was older,
4 Vlado Pavlovic or Katica Kovacevic.
5 A. They were twins.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness.
7 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that the
10 Prosecution wants to tender this aerial photograph into evidence, a
11 photograph which has been authenticated.
12 Witness, could you mark your first and last name on this
13 photograph, today's date, and could you sign the document. It's the 12th
14 of January, 2004 today.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you sign the document or
17 put your name on it, mark it with your name or sign it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, could you show the
20 Defence this document. And the accused as well.
21 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for the exhibit.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number will be P32.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document has been tendered
24 into evidence, and the exhibit number is P32.
25 Before the Defence takes the floor for its cross-examination, I
1 have two brief questions that I would like to put to the witness.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you mentioned two
4 persons that you met when you were arrested and taken from village to
5 village. You spoke about Ribo Suljo, who, if I have understood this
6 correctly from your answers to the Prosecution, was the person who
7 intervened to release you in a certain sense. According to you,
8 Ribo Suljo, what was his position? Was he a soldier, a civilian? What
9 was his position?
10 A. I don't know exactly what he was, but I think he was a teacher in
11 the school. But whether he was someone in the army, I don't know, since
12 this is not knowledge I have.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Was he dressed in
14 civilian clothes or in a military uniform?
15 A. I don't know. I didn't see him, because it was dark. It was
16 night-time, and I couldn't see him well. I did see him, but in fact I
17 didn't pay any attention to what he was wearing.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The second person
19 that you mentioned when you were returning to Miletici is a person who
20 seemed to be surprised to see you. You spoke about Mr. Dedo Suljic. I
21 would like to ask you the same question about this person. Did he have
22 some sort of official position?
23 A. No. He was an elderly man. He didn't have duties of any kind,
24 as far as I know.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And again, I would like to ask
1 you: Was he wearing civilian clothes or was he wearing military clothing?
2 A. He was dressed in civilian clothes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Witness.
4 We have another 35 minutes for the cross-examination. The
5 Defence may now take the floor for its cross-examination.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pavlovic, good evening.
9 A. Good evening.
10 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, and I represent
11 General Hadzihasanovic. I would like to ask you to answer several
12 questions, if you know the answers to my questions.
13 When asked by the Prosecution, you said that you arrived in the
14 village of Miletici in 1982, after you had got married. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. From that time, up until today, the 24th of April, 1993 you lived
17 in Gornji Miletici continually; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The inhabitants in Gornji Miletici are on the whole of Croatian
20 nationality; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The second hamlet of the village of Miletici there were four
23 families. The brothers Suljic lived there, Dedo, Avdo, and Akif Suljic.
24 They were Muslims; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, on several occasions up until now you have spoken
2 about the event in the police station in Busovaca and the last statement
3 you gave was to the OTP. Is that correct?
4 A. It was in Zagreb, to investigators. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. In 1992, the attacks of the Serbian forces from the
6 area of Mount Vlasic directed against the wider area of the villages of
7 Mehurici and Miletici commenced, but your village was never hit; is that
8 correct? Your village was never affected.
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. In addition to those conflicts, your relations with the Muslims
11 from Donji Miletici were very good -- in spite of these conflicts, your
12 relations with the Muslims were very good; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On the day mentioned when your village was attacked, you said
15 that your husband had spent the entire day in the field, ploughing there;
16 is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Throughout that period of time, while he was in the field, he was
19 with Avdo Suljic, who was a friend of his.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecution, you said that at
22 some point in time at the end of 1992 and 1993 you noticed that there were
23 foreigners in that area, the so-called Mujahedin; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. They were very different from the local inhabitants. They spoke
1 a foreign language, and those who spoke our language or knew a little of
2 our language had an accent, so everyone knew they were foreigners. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Some of them had Arafat-style scarves, head scarves, and a long
6 beard; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you had good relations with your neighbours, but because of
9 the conflicts in the wider area between the army -- the BH army and the
10 HVO, towards the beginning of 1993 people started going on guard duty in
11 your village; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Your Muslim neighbours were members of the BH army and the men
14 who were fit for military service from your village were in the HVO; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. They were part of the Frankopan Brigade, whose command was
18 located in Guca Gora; isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecution, you also said
21 that on that day, the 24th of April, 1993, at about 6.00 in the evening,
22 Dedo, Akif, and Avdo Suljic came to the village to warn you about the
23 presence of the Mujahedin in the immediate vicinity of the village; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. However, they were hoping that the Mujahedin would not attack the
2 village and they told you that there was no need to be afraid.
3 A. Well, if that's not contained in the testimony, that's how it
5 Q. At that point, they said that they were prepared to defend you;
6 is that right?
7 A. They said that before. They said if something happened to them,
8 it would happen to us too. And on that day they said that we shouldn't
9 spread panic. They said that they wouldn't do anything to us.
10 Q. At one point in time you also said - and I'm asking you to
11 confirm this - you said that your husband and his friend, Avdo Suljic,
12 went to the BH army command in Mehurici in order to inform them about what
13 was happening. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. He called my husband to go to Mehurici to see if they knew
15 anything about where the Mujahedin had gone.
16 Q. However, before they returned - and you have already described
17 this in detail - shooting broke out. They started shooting at you in the
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Dedo Suljic, as you said, called Ramadani by name and asked them
21 to stop shooting; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. However, his shouting had no effect. There was no response. And
24 the shooting did not stop. Is that right?
25 A. Yes. Because while they were shouting, he said that we should go
1 into Stipo and Ivo's house. We did so, and they remained outside. Dedo
2 remained outside, as well as Akif.
3 Q. While the shooting was going on, only Stipo Pavlovic returned
4 fire from his house, which is where you were too; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. After the attackers had broken down the door and thrown a grenade
7 in, Stipo Pavlovic was killed and his wife, Lucija, was wounded; is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. While you were coming outside of the house, you noticed that one
11 of the attackers had been killed; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You recognised the person as an inhabitant of Mehurici, and it
14 was known that he was a follower of the Mujahedin.
15 A. Well, when we went out, it must have been his brother, and
16 someone shouted out, "Why did you kill him?" I knew him. I asked him
17 where is he from. He said, "You don't know. You couldn't know." Akif's
18 wife said that he had -- that if he had entered the house, he would have
19 killed all of us.
20 Q. As you have already said, there were some foreign soldiers, some
21 Mujahedin, in this group who spoke a foreign language and had long beards
22 and there were also local Muslims among them. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The local people had camouflage paint and some were wearing ski
25 masks; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, some of them had some sort of paint or mud on them, but I
2 didn't see any of them wearing masks.
3 Q. You noticed that one of the attackers was wearing a blue police
4 uniform, which is usually worn by the civilian police.
5 A. No, he didn't have a police uniform but he had a band on his arm
6 and it said "The police" on it.
7 Q. In response to a question put to you by Mr. President, you said
8 that Dedo Suljic was wearing civilian clothes. Is it correct to say that
9 the other Suljic brothers were wearing civilian clothes on that day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it correct to say that Lucija, who had been wounded, asked for
12 help at one point in time and Akif Suljic went to aid her?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. At that point, one of the Mujahedin hit him in the head with the
15 butt of his rifle and he started bleeding; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After you had been tied up and taken in the direction of
18 Mehurici, Dedo and Akif Suljic were taken with you; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. But they hadn't tied them up.
20 Q. While you were still in the village, you said that this person
21 called Ramadan escorted you to your house so that you could take the rifle
22 from the house; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He could speak our language to a certain extent, but he had an
25 accent and it was quite clear that he was a foreigner; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On that day, he in fact issued orders to all the others and it
3 was clear to you that he was in command of the group that had attacked the
4 village; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. It was certainly like that, because Dedo called him out by
6 name, so he must have been in charge of that group.
7 Q. When you were taken to Mehurici, they took you to Poljice, as you
8 said --
9 A. To Poljanice.
10 Q. To Poljanice, which is where these foreign Mujahedin were also
11 present; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you said that at that point you were separated from the men
14 and you remained in the cellar until around midnight; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Presiding Judge, you
17 said that Ribo Suljo, who was a teacher, negotiated in order to obtain
18 your release and he managed to have you released around midnight; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Ribo Suljo was a member of the BH army.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The BH army members, Ribo Suljo, and the police from Mehurici
24 managed to get you a bus -- get you on a bus, which took you to the
25 village of Luka.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The village of Luka is a village -- is the village in which
3 Ribo Suljo lived, and he found accommodation for you in his grandparents'
4 house, which was adjacent to his house.
5 A. Yes. But that was his father's father. He took us to his own
7 Q. They protected you that night to prevent any other incidents
8 perpetrated by the Mujahedin from occurring; is that correct?
9 A. Well, according to what he said, yes, that was the case.
10 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to
12 Mr. Dixon, does the Prosecution wish to intervene? No?
13 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Mr. Dixon.
16 MR. DIXON: No. Thank you. I'll be brief. There are no
17 questions on behalf of Mr. Kubura for this witness. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for you,
21 Madam, to clarify a point which the Judges have in their minds in view of
22 your statements.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your opinion, Madam, the
25 people who attacked your village, those you described as Mujahedin in your
1 opinion - though of course you're not a military expert but you're a
2 witness of fact and you saw them - these people, these foreigners, in your
3 opinion, to the best of your knowledge, were they a part of the Army of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina or not?
5 A. I think that they did belong to the Army of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina. They were with the Muslims.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is what you believe, but
8 without having any additional elements to confirm that.
9 A. Yes, that's right. They were with the Muslims, so I consider them
10 to have been together. I can't say with certainty when I don't know.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So according to you, the local
12 Muslims were integrated within the BH army.
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what you are saying.
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
18 hesitate to intervene at this point. Clearly the Prosecution is fully
19 aware of the right of the Chamber to ask questions of the witness at any
20 time, except for this particular question, because it is a question that
21 asks for an opinion, and I would like to convey the position of the
22 Defence concerning questions of opinion from the witness, because such
23 questions may be put again. And we would like from the beginning to
24 present the position of the Defence on this matter.
25 With your leave, Mr. President, I will be brief. The position of
1 the Defence regarding an opinion given by an ordinary witness is the
2 following: An ordinary witness, as opposed to an expert witness, cannot
3 give an opinion in his testimony because it is not reliable, in the first
4 place; and furthermore, it can lead the Chamber -- it can mislead the
5 Chamber. It is -- it cannot be precise. And it is not -- it does not
6 rely on any base which evidently calls in question its probative value.
7 A fact witness takes the place of a judge of fact, who should on
8 the basis of the facts presented to him, on the basis of what he is told
9 by witnesses, without any external aid to be able to make a judgement. A
10 testimony of an opinion, as you certainly know, is allowed only in the
11 case of expert witnesses, because an expert witness had special expertise
12 which can be of assistance to the Chamber when addressing a point.
13 If we look at the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, we see clearly
14 the distinction that needs to be made between a fact witness and an expert
15 witness, and this distinction is found in Rule 90(C). The fact witness,
16 as opposed to an expert witness, should not be influenced by other
17 testimony. So that is the Rule 90(C), which implicitly recognises that
18 the testimony of a fact witness should only be limited to what he saw and
19 heard himself and should not be an opinion based on other testimony or on
20 other facts.
21 Furthermore, the Rules of Procedure also envisages a special
22 regime regarding the proof offered by an expert witness. A special regime
23 in Rule 94 bis regarding the testimony of an expert witness says that
24 "This opinion can be presented only by a qualified person and one with an
25 expertise that the Chamber does not have." So it would not be logical to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 take so many precautions, to have so many Rules - 90 and 94 bis of the
2 Rules - indicating that an expert must have certain qualities to be able
3 to give an opinion; and on the other hand, to allow a fact witness,
4 without any verification of competence or qualifications to pronounce an
5 opinion on a fact that the Chamber can make an opinion without assistance.
6 And the question is how such a witness could give an opinion that would
7 have probative value.
8 The jurisprudence of the Tribunal also distinguishes -- makes a
9 distinction between these two categories of witnesses. And I refer you to
10 a decision in this connection. I will quote it in English. [In English]
11 "This is a motion by the Prosecution to allow the investigators to follow
12 the trial during the testimonies of witnesses." [Interpretation] It was
13 in the Delalic case, IT-86-21-T, for trial; in the Celebici case in March
15 The doctrine also establishes a clear distinction between the
16 testimony of an expert and the testimony of a fact witness. By way of an
17 example, in Anne Marie Larosa, in her manual, Criminal National
18 Jurisdiction tells us that there are two types of witnesses, fact
19 witnesses, ordinary witnesses who convey facts of which they have personal
20 knowledge, and an expert witness who makes comparisons in order to make a
21 precise opinion regarding a particular fact. The Manual of Quebec also
22 makes a distinction and says "An expert witness is not prevented from
23 testifying about facts that he has no personal knowledge of."
24 So -- "however, a fact witness relies mostly on facts he has personal
25 knowledge of."
1 In conclusion, Mr. President, considering the problem of
2 reliability and probative value to be given to an opinion of a fact
3 witness, and in view of the distinction that exists between evidence
4 introduced by a fact witness and an expert witness, the Defence, with
5 respect, submits that an opinion coming from a fact witness could
6 never -- should never be accepted.
7 I will conclude quickly. The question put to the witness is a
8 key question in the current case. This question is one that many
9 witnesses will be testifying about. This is a question that is of key
10 significance, and it is normal to tend to ask a witness whether there was
11 any link between the Mujahedin and the BH army. But, Mr. President, with
12 due respect, it is only the Chamber itself that will be able to answer
13 that question, based on what the witnesses will tell you on the basis of
14 their own personal knowledge. Therefore, I would ask, Mr. President, with
15 all due respect, that it be redacted from the transcript of today's
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor now to the
18 Prosecution. We have another ten minutes left.
19 MR. MUNDIS: I certainly won't need ten minutes, Mr. President.
20 Rule 89(C) of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence is
21 quite clear: "A Chamber may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to
22 have probative value." The Prosecution would submit that the question or
23 questions put by the Bench to the witness are not so much of a character
24 as to be considered opinion evidence but, rather, is evidence of
25 conclusions that the witness may have reached based on things that she
1 observed. And it is not at all unlike a situation where a witness might
2 testify that it rained last night not because the witness was up all night
3 and actually watched the raindrops hitting the pavement but because in the
4 morning the witness noticed that there were puddles everywhere which
5 weren't there the day before.
6 In the event the Defence would like to more fully address and
7 brief this issue, the Prosecution would be happy to respond to written
8 submissions or, if those would be helpful to the Chamber, we would be more
9 than happy to assist the Chamber in terms of briefing this issue in
11 I should also note just for the future - and I'm sure it's simply
12 an oversight on behalf of the Defence - but the Prosecution view would be
13 any time where lengthy legal submissions are made orally, the Prosecution
14 would submit it's certainly more proper for the witness to be removed from
15 the courtroom prior to such oral legal submissions being made.
16 That's really all the Prosecution has to submit at this time,
17 Your Honour. But again, if it would be helpful to the Chamber, we can
18 certainly more fully brief the issue. But the Prosecution would submit at
19 this time that if the Chamber deems it to be relevant and to have
20 probative value, that it certainly falls more in lines with any other type
21 of perhaps circumstantial or conclusionary-type evidence and not so much
22 an opinion. And of course, as the Defence correctly points out, will be
23 the ultimate arbiter of this key issue in the case. But the Prosecution
24 would submit that the line of questioning put to the witness by
25 Your Honour certainly falls within the scope of both relevance and
1 probative value, in light of what the witness testified that she actually
2 saw and the conclusions that she drew, based on her own observations.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We will
4 rule tomorrow morning at the beginning of the hearing whether, in view of
5 our question and the response given, whether it should be mentioned in the
6 transcript or redacted. All precautions have been taken to inform the
7 witness that she was not an expert witness, and she was asked to answer a
8 question to the best of her knowledge on the basis of what she saw and
9 that what she told us was her conclusion, because she noted that the local
10 Muslims were integrated within the ABiH, and as the foreigners were with
11 the local Muslims, she came to the conclusion that they were integrated
12 within the ABiH.
13 Will you please refer to the transcript, when the witness
14 indicated that the local Muslims were a part of the ABiH. But we will
15 rule about this tomorrow regarding this particular point, which is an
16 important point, and the Chamber, of course, has listened to Mr. Bourgon
17 with great attention, who had already prepared his intervention, having
18 studied the matter in depth, knowing that the question would arise.
19 So you will have our decision tomorrow in response to the
20 question raised, the particular question raised.
21 Within the framework of questions that we have heard, has the
22 Prosecution any re-examination for this witness?
23 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
25 Madam Witness, you have come to The Hague at the request of the
1 Prosecution, which wanted to ask you some questions regarding the facts of
2 which you were a witness and a victim at the same time. You have
3 testified with great courage, which we applaud. Your testimony is now
4 over, and the Chamber wishes you a safe return home.
5 I would like to ask the usher to accompany you out of the
6 courtroom now.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the four minutes remaining,
10 has the Defence any observation or remark to make? No problems?
11 The Prosecution also? Yes, Mr. Withopf.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Very briefly. For Your Honours' and Defence
13 counsel's planning. Tomorrow there's one witness scheduled. After the
14 proofing meeting, we anticipate the examination-in-chief lasting for about
15 one hour. Witness XA, who is scheduled for Wednesday, will not arrive
16 here prior to tomorrow evening; therefore, we can't call Witness XA
17 tomorrow. So it can be anticipated that the tomorrow's session will not
18 last until 7.00 in the evening.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are telling me that we will
20 have a witness for tomorrow nevertheless? Yes. So once we hear that
21 witness and his cross-examination is over, we will adjourn before
22 7.00 p.m. We are aware of the difficulties you are having in bringing
23 witnesses over.
24 It is almost 7.00 p.m. The hearing is adjourned, and we will all
25 meet again tomorrow morning at quarter past 2.00.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
2 to be resumed on Tuesday, the 13th day of January,
3 2004, at 2.15 p.m.