Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1404

 1                           Wednesday, 14 January 2004

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call

 5     the case, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Case number IT-01-47-T, Enver Hadzihasanovic and

 7     Amir Kubura.

 8                           [The accused entered court]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May we have the

10     appearances, starting with the Prosecution.  They seem to be rather alone

11     today.

12             MR. WITHOPF:  That's obviously correct, Mr. President.  For the

13     Prosecution, Ekkehard Withopf and Kimberley Fleming, case manager.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Defence; they are

15     complete, in full number.

16             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President. 

17     Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For the Defence of Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18     Residovic, myself; and as defender and co-counsel, Mr. Bourgon, and Mirna

19     Milanovic as the legal assistant.  Thank you.

20             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation].  Good morning, Mr. President. 

21     We have Rodney Dixon, Mr. Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our legal assistant,

22     Mr. Nermin Mulalic.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The Chamber would

24     like to say good afternoon to all those present.  The Prosecution,

25     Defence, and the accused.

Page 1405

 1             Before we start with the witness, the Chamber will make an oral

 2     ruling with respect to the matter raised two days ago, concerning an

 3     answer given by one of the witnesses.  I should like to remind you that

 4     the question raised by the Defence on the 12th of January was about the

 5     following, now, whether a witness and not an expert witness can testify

 6     with regard to his opinion.  This question was raised by the Defence, and

 7     it also had to do with the questions raised by the Judges as to

 8     jurisdiction.

 9             In view of Article 85(B) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

10     which has to do with the presentation of evidence, and that is the title

11     of the Rule, provides the following: That a Judge can ask witnesses any

12     questions they deem fit at any stage of the trial. 

13             Rule 89, however, provides for the following: That the Chamber

14     may admit any relevant evidence which it deems to have probative value. 

15     Therefore, in a more general manner, the right to ask questions -- for

16     the Judges to ask questions may be taken within their general mission to

17     discover the truth.  Of course, it is of interest to note, on the other

18     hand, that the Judges of the Tribunal are professional judges, and they

19     therefore are not restricted by national rules which would be applicable

20     to a jury.  And from that point of view, Rule 89(A) of the Rules of

21     Procedure state that a Chamber shall apply the Rules of Evidence set

22     forth in this section and shall not be bound by national Rules of

23     Evidence.

24             Therefore, combining all these rulings, the right of Judges to

25     ask questions is a broad-based one and should not be restricted or

Page 1406

 1     limited in any way.  The judge, therefore, has full authority to ask any

 2     questions he deems useful to arrive at the truth.

 3             Probative-value questions in respect to witnesses' answers is

 4     something that will be regulated and given weight to by the Chamber, and

 5     they will of course take into account all the different elements --

 6     credibility, viability, and all the rest.

 7             Having said that, with respect to this particular case and the

 8     question raised on the 12th of January, our ruling is the following:  The

 9     witness was heard in the case during an examination-in-chief and for a

10     cross-examination, and in that case, the witness said that his -- that

11     her husband was going to meet responsible persons from the BiH command in

12     Mehurici in order to -- and he was asked whether the Mujahedin were a

13     part  -- find out whether the Mujahedin were a part.

14             During the examination, it was indicated that the Muslim army,

15     who were the ones who shot at them -- whether they were the ones who shot

16     at them at Miletici.  And the witness had also stated that some of the

17     soldiers were wearing camouflage uniforms, T-1324.

18             During the cross-examination, the Defence itself asked the

19     witness whether their Muslim neighbours were members of the BiH army, and

20     the witness's answer was in the affirmative, and that is at 31340.

21             Now, the question that was raised, in view of the transcript in

22     LiveNote - in French, not in English and I'm come back to that later on -

23     so the question was as follows:

24             Q.  "According to you, Madam, the people who attacked your

25                 village - and you said that they were Mujahedin - would you

Page 1407

 1                 say, in your opinion - of course, you're not a military

 2                 expert - but you saw what happened because you were an

 3                 eyewitness - do you think those foreigners, in your opinion,

 4                 and to the best of your knowledge, were part of the BH Army

 5                 or not?"

 6             And the witness gave the following answer:

 7             A.  "I think that they did belong to the Army of

 8                 Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They were with the Muslims."

 9             Now, the next question was as follows:

10             Q.  "So that is what you think.  But without any further

11                 elements?"

12             A.  "Yes, that's right.  They were with the Muslims, so I thought

13                 that they were together.  I cannot say with any degree of

14                 certainty anything else, because I don't know about that."

15             Now, the next question was:

16             Q.  "In your opinion, therefore, the local Muslims were

17                 integrated in the BiH; is that right?"

18             Answer:

19             A.  "Yes."

20             Now, in view of these questions and answers, during the

21     examination conducted by the Prosecution and the cross-examination by the

22     Defence, and in view of the questions raised by the Judges themselves,

23     the question did not have to do with the witness's opinion but on the

24     knowledge that the witness had, based on a summary of what she said.  So

25     the question that was asked at no point in the French transcript

Page 1408

 1     reflected the opinion of the witness.

 2             So all necessary precautions were taken.  Reference was made to

 3     what the witness had seen, because the witness was an eyewitness, and the

 4     knowledge that the witness had, and it was -- the witness was clearly

 5     asked to confirm what she had said in this particular case.  So the

 6     question was formulated after the witness had provided elements on the

 7     basis of which it was able to -- we were able to assess her testimony,

 8     which will aid the Chamber until due course to give probative value to

 9     this testimony and decide what weight to give to it.

10             Whatever the case, the Trial Chamber has the right to ask any

11     questions that it considers to be useful, in order to determine the

12     probative weight which is appropriate to any answer provided by the

13     witness in the course of the examination-in-chief and in the course of

14     the cross-examination.

15             Having said that, and outside the scope of oral 1/9:15 decision,

16     the Trial Chamber determined that the English transcript could have given

17     rise, could have provoked the Defence to react as it did, because in

18     English interpretation, the question that was posed was:  "In your

19     opinion."  That was the English version.  And I think that in such a

20     case, the Defence believed that the witness had been asked for the

21     witness's opinion, whereas in the French interpretation, no reference was

22     made to an opinion of any kind that the witness may have held.  So I

23     think that this is what caused the Defence to react as it did.  It was

24     the English version which mentioned "In your opinion," -- the wording of

25     which was "In your opinion," whereas in the French, these words were

Page 1409

 1     never used.

 2             In addition, if the Defence has time to consult the Robert and

 3     Collins French-English dictionary to check the semantics with regard to

 4     this matter of opinion, the Defence will see that an opinion can mean

 5     either a judgement, a conviction or an idea.  This is page 617. 

 6             Page 1.616 of the English version, "opinion", defined by

 7     Anglicists, can be an opinion or consideration.  So opinion can be a

 8     point of view.  The famous Concise Oxford Dictionary says the following

 9     with regard to the term "opinion":  It can be a view or judgement, most

10     necessarily based on fact or knowledge.  And this means that, on the

11     other hand, one could deduct that an opinion may be based on fact or

12     knowledge.  This is not excluded, as far as the Petit Robert is

13     concerned; page 1536, an opinion could be a matter of judgement or

14     someone's state of mind.

15             On the other hand, as far as knowledge is concerned in the Petit

16     Robert, this knowledge has to do with a fact or a manner of knowing, and

17     the opposite of the term "knowledge" would be "doubt," or "ignorance."

18             Having provided these semantic explanations, the Trial Chamber

19     believes that it is not necessary to redact the witness's response, the

20     response that the witness gave to the question posed to the witness.  The

21     Trial Chamber considers that it was the English translation which was

22     misleading.

23             Having said this, we will proceed, and I think that we have to go

24     into closed session, because the Prosecution has certain details to

25     provide us with regard to the witness.

Page 1410

 1             So, Mr. Usher, could we please go into closed session, in order

 2     to allow the Prosecution to expose their point of view, and so that the

 3     numerous people in the public gallery are not in a position to hear what

 4     is being said.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1411











11    Pages 1411-1414 redacted. Private session.
















Page 1415

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the measures taken will

 3     prevent the public from seeing the witness entering, but the public and

 4     the media will hear a distorted voice and see the image of the witness,

 5     which will be distorted.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We will resume with

 9     the hearing, having applied the measures we have mentioned.

10             Witness, can you hear the interpretation?  Apparently you can't.

11             I'll ask you this again:  Witness, can you hear the

12     interpretation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear it now.  I hear it now.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you repeat that?  Can you

15     repeat?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear it very well. 

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for your

18     request.  You have been granted protective measures.  A pseudonym will be

19     used.  Your pseudonym will be XA while you're testifying.  There will be

20     voice distortion, so your voice can't be identified.  And as far as your

21     face is concerned, technical measures have been taken to prevent anyone

22     from identifying you.  In addition, your testimony can't be disclosed to

23     anyone outside this courtroom.  Have you understood what I have said?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are now going to

Page 1416

 1     take the solemn declaration, and the usher, who is by your side, is going

 2     to show you a text which you should read.

 3                           WITNESS:  WITNESS XA

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You can sit down

 8     now.

 9             Witness, you're appearing for the Prosecution and you will be

10     testifying about facts that you have witnessed.  Your testimony will

11     contribute to determining the truth, and you have to testify about what

12     you have witnessed directly and not about things that you might infer. 

13     The Prosecution, that is, to your right, will be asking you a series of

14     questions.  After they have finished asking you their questions, the

15     Defence for the accused, who are on your left, will also ask you some

16     questions.  If necessary, and if the Judges who are before you believe it

17     is necessary to ask you any additional questions in order to clarify

18     certain issues, we will do so.  If a question is not clear, ask the

19     person who has asked you that question to rephrase it, to ask the

20     question again.  Take your time to answer the question and try to avoid

21     answering by yes or not to the extent that this is possible.  Have you

22     understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We can now proceed

25     with the examination-in-chief.  The Prosecution may take the floor for

Page 1417

 1     its examination-in-chief.

 2             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.

 3                           Examined by Mr. Withopf:

 4        Q.   Witness XA, and in the course of this examination, I will always

 5     address you as "Witness XA."  Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial

 6     Chamber whether you have been a member of the JNA.

 7        A.   Yes, I was a member of the JNA.

 8        Q.   Can you please --

 9             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

10     think it would be appropriate, and I think this is the proper procedure,

11     for the witness to write down his name, which will remain under seal, so

12     that we know who the witness XA is.  I apologise for having interrupted

13     my learned colleague.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you'll be shown a

15     piece of paper.  You'll write down your first and last name on this piece

16     of paper, and your date of birth.  This piece of paper will be recorded. 

17     The registrar will make a record of it, and this is in order to be sure

18     of your identity.  The usher will show you this piece of paper, and

19     please write down your first and last name and your date of birth and

20     your address.  And if you have a profession, could you make a note of it

21     too.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

24     thank the Defence for having pointed out this issue.

25             Madam Usher, you will show this document to the Prosecution,

Page 1418

 1     first of all, so that they can confirm that this is in fact the right

 2     witness, that no mistake has been made as far as their witness is

 3     concerned.  Is that the person?

 4             You will now show the document to the Defence so that they can

 5     check it.  And show the document to the accused.

 6             Very well.  Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number to

 7     tender this exhibit into evidence.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This exhibit number will be P33, under seal.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P33, under seal.  The

10     Prosecution may proceed.

11             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you very much.

12        Q.   Witness XA, you just informed the Trial Chamber that you have

13     been a member of the JNA.  Can you please provide us some more detail as

14     to when you joined the JNA and as to when you left the JNA.

15        A.   I joined the JNA on the 15th of January, 1989, and I returned in

16     1990.  I was in Nis, and after that I was at the Bulgarian border.

17        Q.   Witness XA, can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you grew

18     up.

19        A.   I was born in Zenica.  I grew up in the village of Janjac, near

20     Zenica.  It's eight kilometres away.

21        Q.   Going back to the transcript, Witness XA, can you please add as

22     to at what time you left the JNA.

23        A.   On the 15th of January --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think there's a technical

25     problem.

Page 1419

 1             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My client can't hear.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One of the accused can't hear.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll ask the usher to check the

 5     technical problem, to the extent that she is capable of doing so. 

 6             It concerns the interpretation from French into the B/C/S. 

 7             If there is a problem, the best solution would be perhaps for the

 8     accused to move forward into the seat in front.  Perhaps that equipment

 9     is working. 

10             Can you hear now?  Everything all right?  It seems that things

11     are back to normal. 

12             Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

13             MR. WITHOPF:

14        Q.   Witness XA, in light of the fact that there has been a technical

15     problem, I restart my examination-in-chief.

16             Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial Chamber whether you

17     have been a member of the JNA.

18        A.   I was a member of the JNA from the 15th of January, 1989, which

19     is when I went to the JNA, and I was stationed in Nis.  Afterwards I was

20     transferred to the Yugoslav Bulgarian border.  And I left the JNA on the

21     15th of January, 1990.

22        Q.   Can you please tell us where you grew up.

23        A.   I grew up in the village of Janjac, near Zenica, and I was born

24     in Zenica.

25        Q.   The village of Janjac, can you please inform the Trial Chamber

Page 1420

 1     what was the predominant ethnicity of the villagers in 1992 and the

 2     beginning of 1993 of that village.

 3        A.   In my village, the village of Janjac, there were only Croats

 4     living there.  Just Croats.

 5        Q.   The villagers surrounding your village, Janjac, what was the

 6     predominant ethnicity of the villagers living in these villages?

 7        A.   Most of them were Muslims.  That was the majority population. 

 8     And there was one Serb village.  Its name was Osunjca.

 9        Q.   Witness XA, can you please provide us with the names of the

10     predominant Muslim villages you were just referring to.

11        A.   Yes.  Those villages were called Lokvine, Kozarci, Obrenovci, and

12     Stranjani.

13        Q.   How would you describe the relationship between the Croats in

14     your village and the Muslims in the villages you were just detailing?

15        A.   The relationship was -- actually, could you repeat the question,

16     please.

17        Q.   How would you describe was the relationship in 1992, in mid-1992,

18     between the villagers, the Croat villagers, in the village you grew up,

19     and the villagers in the villages, in the Muslim villages surrounding

20     Janjac?

21        A.   At that time, relations began to be strained, and on the hills -

22     we can see the hills above our village - we could see armed people,

23     mostly they had hunting rifles.

24        Q.   Prior to seeing such people with rifles, how would you describe

25     the relationship?

Page 1421

 1        A.   Before that, the relations were very good.

 2        Q.   What caused this change in the relations?

 3        A.   The change in relations was caused by the arming that went on. 

 4     Everyone, on all sides, each man would keep to himself.  There weren't

 5     that many contacts.

 6        Q.   Was there a time, Witness XA, when you joined the HVO?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   Can you please inform us as to when you joined the HVO?

 9        A.   I joined the HVO in November 1992.

10        Q.   And which unit have you been a member of when you joined the HVO

11     in November 1992?

12        A.   The Jure Francetic Brigade was my unit, and the brigade commander

13     was Zivko Totic.

14        Q.   Can you please inform the Trial Chamber where the Jure Francetic

15     Brigade was located, was based.

16        A.   The Jure Francetic Brigade was based in a village named

17     Podbrijezje, near Zenica.

18        Q.   In November 1992, and later on, in the beginning of 1993, can you

19     please inform the Trial Chamber as to which military units were on the

20     opposite side.

21        A.   On the opposite side were the units of the BH Army, and they were

22     the 7th Muslim Brigade, the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and --

23     well, I think that's it.

24        Q.   The 7th Muslim Brigade, where was the 7th Muslim Brigade based,

25     end of 1992 and 1993?

Page 1422

 1        A.   The 7th Muslim Brigade was based at Bilmiste in the barracks

 2     there.

 3        Q.   Bilmiste, is it part of any bigger town, or is it in the vicinity

 4     of any bigger town?

 5        A.   Bilmiste is in Zenica.  It's actually a district of Zenica

 6     itself.

 7        Q.   In terms of armament, was there a difference between the unit you

 8     were a member of and the ABiH units you were just detailing?

 9        A.   Those brigades had many more soldiers, and weapons too.  All the

10     weapons were from the former JNA, and they came to possess those weapons,

11     that is to say, the Muslim armed forces.

12        Q.   Was there a time, Witness XA, when you have seen foreigners in

13     the area of Zenica?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.  I noticed some foreigners.  They spoke a

15     different language.  They had insignia in Arabic.  They wore long beards

16     and black bands.  And sometimes I saw them with some sabres, and they

17     were about 50 centimeters long.

18        Q.   Was there a particular word you referred to to these foreigners?

19        A.   We called those foreigners the Mujahedin.

20        Q.   Witness XA, when was the first time you've seen such Mujahedin in

21     the area of Zenica?

22        A.   The first time I saw those foreigners in the area of Zenica was

23     the end of 1992.  They were walking round town, quite normally.

24        Q.   Were they walking around the town of Zenica with the arms you

25     just described?

Page 1423

 1        A.   Yes, they were.

 2        Q.   Do you know, Witness XA, where these Mujahedin came from?

 3        A.   I know that they spoke Arabic and that they had Arabic writing on

 4     their flags.  I think that they were from Afghanistan, Pakistan too.

 5        Q.   You're making reference to Arabic writing on their flags.  Did

 6     these Mujahedin -- end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993 -- carry such

 7     flags with them openly in Zenica and the area of Zenica?

 8        A.   Yes.  They carried the flags around Zenica quite openly, and in

 9     Zenica too.

10        Q.   Do you know, Witness XA, where these Mujahedin were based at the

11     time?

12        A.   At the time, they were stationed in the village of Mehurici, of

13     the Travnik municipality.

14        Q.   Was there a time, Witness XA, when you joined the military police

15     of the HVO?

16        A.   Yes, I did join the military police of the HVO, and that was at

17     the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

18        Q.   Can you please inform us where the military police unit which you

19     became a member of end of 1992/beginning of 1993 was based.

20        A.   That unit of the military police was based -- actually, it

21     belonged to the Jure Francetic Brigade, and it was based in the Rudar

22     Hotel in Zenica.

23        Q.   Did there come a time, Witness XA, when the relations between the

24     HVO and the ABiH became even worse than at the beginning of 1993?

25        A.   Relations deteriorated from one day to the next, and relations

Page 1424

 1     were worst when Zivko Totic, the commander of the brigade, was captured

 2     and his escort killed on the road near Podbrijezje.

 3        Q.   Do you still recall, Witness XA, when your commander, Zivko

 4     Totic, was kidnapped and his escort were killed?

 5        A.   Yes, I do recall that, because I was there on the spot, and that

 6     was on the 11th of April, 1993, in the morning, between 8.00 and 9.00.

 7        Q.   Witness XA, can you please inform us where the location

 8     Podbrijezje, as you just mentioned, is located.

 9        A.   Podbrijezje is located near the town of Zenica.  It is about five

10     kilometres away, or three to four kilometres away from Zenica.  And

11     nearby is the steelworks of Zenica.

12        Q.   You were saying, Witness XA, that the escort of Zivko Totic was

13     killed.  Can you please inform us of whom the escort was comprised of.

14        A.   The escorts to Zivko Totic were his brother, Ljubomir Totic, and

15     his brother's son, and his name was Mladen Jandric.  The driver was

16     there.  He was also killed.  Yes, I forgot that, and I've forgotten his

17     name.  And there was another man who was hitchhiking, so they took him

18     in.

19        Q.   Did you get to know that other people, in addition to Zivko

20     Totic's escort, have been killed in the course of this incident?

21        A.   Yes.  In the course of that incident, a couple, an elderly

22     couple, were also killed.  They were between the ages of 50 and 60.  And

23     when I arrived on the spot where Zivko was captured and where his escorts

24     were killed, that elderly couple was lying down on the ground some 50

25     metres away from the actual spot that Zivko Totic was captured.

Page 1425

 1        Q.   Can you please inform the Trial Chamber in which capacity you

 2     visited the scene of the crime.

 3        A.   As I've already said, I was a military policeman of the Jure

 4     Francetic Brigade, and Zivko Totic was the brigade commander.  So from

 5     the headquarters, from the command at Podbrijezje, we were informed of

 6     what had happened and told that we had to go on the spot immediately. 

 7             And when we arrived there, all the people were already dead.  I

 8     wasn't able to recognise anyone, because their heads had been shattered. 

 9     They were shot at from a distance of about five metres, that is to say,

10     close up.  And there were about a hundred cartridge cases lying around,

11     an M-84 millimetre type of machine-gun.  So we set up a barrier there,

12     and the representatives of the HVO arrived in due course, and so did the

13     representatives of the BH Army, as well as the HDZ and SDA

14     representatives, because at the time, the HDZ and the SDA were the two

15     ruling parties.

16        Q.   Witness XA, you were just saying that representatives of the ABiH

17     arrived at the spot.  Can you please provide us some more detail in that

18     respect.

19        A.   The representatives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, together

20     with representatives of the HVO, conducted a scene-of-crime

21     investigation, and we, the military policemen, were standing at a

22     distance of about 100 metres from the actual event.  Later on, they went

23     to the Croatian centre in Zenica.  They had a meeting of some kind there. 

24     Probably they didn't manage to reach an agreement, because things were

25     worse afterwards.

Page 1426

 1        Q.   "Things were worse afterwards," just quoting your last few words. 

 2     What does it actually mean?

 3        A.   That means that on the 17th of April, that is to say, five days

 4     after Zivko had been captured, and we were all in the hotel, all of us,

 5     and when the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade entered the Croatian

 6     centre and broke everything that was there, there were two of our men

 7     there who were on guard, and they came to tell us that the place had been

 8     stormed by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade and that, quite simply, they

 9     forced them out.  And two hours later, they shot at the hotel, so that we

10     had to withdraw from the hotel, to a village that was called Grm.

11        Q.   For clarification, Witness XA, the hotel you are referring to, is

12     it the base of the HVO Jure Francetic military police unit?  This is the

13     question.

14        A.   The hotel was the base of the Jure Francetic military police,

15     yes.

16        Q.   Witness XA, did there come a time when you have been arrested?

17        A.   Yes, I was arrested.

18        Q.   Do you still recall the date as to when you were arrested?

19        A.   I was arrested on the 21st, between the 21st and 22nd of April,

20     1993, in the apartment of -- I was arrested on the -- between the 21st

21     and 22nd of April, in the apartment in Zenica, and the name of the street

22     at the time was JNA Street.

23        Q.   Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Witness XA, as to who

24     arrested you.

25        A.   I was arrested by the 7th Muslim Brigade, the military police of

Page 1427

 1     the 7th military brigade [as interpreted], in actual fact.

 2        Q.   How did you get to know that it was the military police of the

 3     7th Muslim Brigade who arrested you?

 4        A.   All of the people who turned up in the apartment where I was

 5     located had insignia denoting the 7th Muslim Brigade and its military

 6     police, and the people who were on the stairwell, and there were about

 7     ten of them, they also had patches of the military police of the 7th

 8     Muslim Brigade.

 9        Q.   Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a photo board showing a

10     number of different military shoulder patches.

11             MR. WITHOPF:  This is the Prosecution Exhibit P5.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This exhibit was tendered under

13     the number of P5; is that right?  It is Exhibit P5?

14             MR. WITHOPF:  That's completely correct, Mr. President.  And I'm

15     going to present the exhibit via Sanction to the Witness XA.

16        Q.   Witness XA, on this photo board, can you identify the shoulder

17     patch -- can you identify one of the shoulder patches as being the one

18     which has been worn by the members of the military unit which arrested

19     you in April 1993?

20        A.   Yes, I can.  It's patch number 16.  But that patch was straight

21     at the top.

22        Q.   Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What does the witness mean when

24     he says that it was straight at the top?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the same patch as shown here,

Page 1428

 1     but it wasn't egg-shaped.  It was straight at the top.

 2             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Once you have been arrested on the 21st, 22nd of April, 1993,

 4     where did the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade did you bring

 5     to?

 6        A.   The members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade took me off to the

 7     Music School, which was located near the central cinema in Zenica.

 8        Q.   Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a photograph.  It's the

 9     Prosecution Exhibit P8.

10             MR. WITHOPF:  And since the witness -- since I will ask the

11     witness at a later point in time to make some markings on it, the

12     Prosecution has to present it and has to tender it in hard copy.  It's

13     the Prosecution's exhibit P8.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have P7 on the screen.

15             MR. WITHOPF:  That's exactly, Mr. President, Your Honours, the

16     photograph I wish to show the witness.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So, if I understand

18     you, you have a copy to show the witness for him to authenticate it; is

19     that right?

20             MR. WITHOPF:  That's completely correct, Your Honour, Your

21     Honours, and it's actually Exhibit P7.  I apologise.

22             Can the witness please be shown the photograph Exhibit P7. 

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, if you have a copy

24     already, perhaps you could show the witness.

25             MR. WITHOPF:  There is such a copy available.

Page 1429

 1        Q.   Witness XA, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you can

 2     see on this photograph.

 3        A.   I can see on the photograph the Music School, and it was next to

 4     the central, or central cinema hall.

 5        Q.   Is this the Music School in Zenica you were just referring to

 6     that you have been brought to after you have been arrested by members of

 7     the military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

 8        A.   Yes, that's it.  That's the Music School where I was taken to

 9     when they captured me, that is to say, when I was captured by the

10     military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

11        Q.   The time you were brought to the Zenica Music School you just

12     identified on this photograph, where in this building were you brought

13     to?

14        A.   They took me to the cellar of this building.  You can see the

15     small windows by the road.  That's where the cellar was located, which is

16     where they took me, and I spent 15 days there.

17        Q.   Witness XA --

18             MR. WITHOPF:  Can the witness please be provided with a text

19     marker.  Can it also please be put on the ELMO, the photograph.

20        Q.   Can you please mark with the text marker the windows of the room

21     in which you were brought in.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And can you please write in the grey area beneath these windows,

24     the words "this is the room I was detained."

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, given that there

Page 1430

 1     are protective measures that have been granted, I think that this

 2     photograph should be relayed by the Internet system.  If he writes

 3     something down on the photograph, his writing can be identified, and that

 4     could give rise to certain problems, to a slight problem.  So if he

 5     doesn't mark anything, his name or any other details, this might be

 6     useful, since this document should be relayed to the exterior.  We will

 7     take confidential measures later.

 8             MR. WITHOPF:  Right.  Thank you very much.  Very well.

 9        Q.   Witness XA, can you please write down what I just mentioned: 

10     "This is the room I was kept in detention."

11        A.   [Marks]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So no one can see what he has

13     marked on the document.  Very well.

14             MR. WITHOPF:  I understand, Mr. President.  That's the way it

15     should be.  And the photograph will later on be shown to Defence and the

16     two accused, I understand.

17        Q.   Witness XA, I'm now going to show you a further photograph.  This

18     is Prosecution Exhibit, and I understand it's now P8.  And again, we have

19     the photograph available in hard copy as well.

20             Witness XA, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you can

21     see on this photograph.

22        A.   I can see the room.  When the police from the 7th Muslim Brigade

23     brought me there, that's the room that they took me to, and that is where

24     I spent 15 days.

25        Q.   For clarification, Witness XA, is this the room from inside you

Page 1431

 1     just marked on the other photograph, with the access from outside?

 2        A.   Yes, that's the inside of the room that I -- the outside of which

 3     I have marked on the document.

 4        Q.   The day of your arrest, you were just informing the Trial

 5     Chamber, you were taken in this room.  What happened to you after you

 6     were taken into this room?

 7        A.   When they took me to this room, there was a door there.  It only

 8     consisted of sort of rods, and then three policemen from the 7th Muslim

 9     Brigade appeared and they told me to approach the door and to put my hand

10     through the sort of rails.  They took everything that I had on me.  They

11     took my shoes off too, my ring, my watch, and the money I had on me.

12     While I spent 15 days there, I was barefoot all the time.  I had no

13     shoes.

14             Afterwards, about one hour later, some other people descended.

15     There were five of them.  When they started taking me out, up the stairs,

16     I was hit with a wooden implement on the head, and then I lost

17     consciousness. 

18             When I regained consciousness, I was in a room where there were

19     between 15 to 20 of those policemen from the 7th Muslim Brigade.  They

20     interrogated me.  They put some questions to me.  They asked me how many

21     Muslim women I had raped.  They asked me which Croats had weapons, cars,

22     rifles.  They continued to beat me until I lost consciousness, and after

23     a certain period of time, they threw me back into the cellar, into the

24     basement. 

25             And this continued for about eight days, on a daily basis.  Then

Page 1432

 1     they stopped beating me for a two-day period, but the policeman on duty,

 2     on the first floor, when their colleagues from the battlefield arrived,

 3     they would let them go into the basement to beat us again.

 4             So during that 15-day period, we were maltreated, beaten, et

 5     cetera.  There were no toilet facilities.  We didn't have any water.  We

 6     had a gallon, which weighed about three kilos.  And sometimes there would

 7     be up to 30 of us.  And that was drinking water.

 8             In this photograph, you can see, to the right, there was a sort

 9     of bucket, five-litre bucket, and that's where we were able to relieve

10     ourselves.

11        Q.   Witness XA, you were just informing the Trial Chamber about the

12     beatings.  Can you go into more detail by what means, with the help of

13     what tools, you have been beaten by the members of the 7th Muslim

14     Mountain Brigade.

15        A.   Usually, these were wooden handles.  We called them spade

16     handles.  Then they used rubber truncheons.  They sometimes had

17     knuckle-dusters.  That's what we called them - either wooden or iron

18     ones.  They would kick us, they would beat us with whatever they could

19     get their hands on.

20        Q.   How do you know that these were members of the 7th Muslim

21     Mountain Brigade's military police which beat you?

22        A.   All of these people -- most of them had the insignia of the

23     military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.  Those of them who didn't and

24     who beat me are the ones who had arrived -- or would arrive from the

25     battlefield.

Page 1433

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we're going to

 2     have to stop, because an hour and a half has almost passed, and for

 3     technical reasons, in order to change the tape, we cannot continue.  So

 4     you'll have to continue with your cross-examination.  I'm going to ask

 5     Madam Usher to lower the blinds to prevent the witness from being seen. 

 6     Naturally, we will take care of the two documents in a short while.

 7             Witness, we will now have a 25-minute break.  You'll be able to

 8     rest in a room for witnesses, and we will resume the hearing after the

 9     break.  That will be at 10 past 4.00.  And as we will be working until

10     7.00, we will be having another break.

11             We will now adjourn, and we will resume at 10 past 4.00

12     precisely.

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The protective measures are

16     still in place.  There is just a little correction that I would like to

17     make.  On the basis of the transcript, what will be redacted has to do

18     with the details that concern the witness's identity, the details that

19     would allow him to be identified.  And what appears in the English

20     transcript.

21             Mr. Withopf, please continue with your examination-in-chief, and

22     we have protective measures in place which are being controlled by

23     Mr. Registrar.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 1434

 1        Q.   Witness XA, for the information of the Trial Chamber, you have

 2     described the beatings, and you have described the means by which members

 3     of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Defence inform us of

 6     whether we have a technical problem?

 7             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I have understood, the

 8     accused said that he can now hear the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution

 9     very well, but he has to strain to hear the witness's answer.  But I

10     think everything is fine now.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please say,

12     number one, to see whether the accused can hear you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  The witness can't hear.

15             The accused has to be in a position to hear the witness's

16     answers, but apparently we have a problem.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I've been told that the

19     technician is arriving.  If the problem continues, the best solution

20     would be for Mr. Kubura to sit in front.  Things should be functioning

21     there.

22             Could the usher check to see whether the system in front of the

23     accused is working, though it's also necessary for there to be headphones

24     there.  The usher is going to check.  Here's the technician.

25             Could you say "one" again, please.

Page 1435

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently it's working now. 

 3     The Trial Chamber would like to thank the technician.

 4             Mr. Withopf, please proceed.

 5             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you very much.

 6        Q.   Witness XA, for the information of the Trial Chamber, you were

 7     describing the beatings by the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain

 8     Brigade's military police in the Zenica Music School, and you were

 9     detailing beatings on your head.  Can you please inform the Trial Chamber

10     which other parts of your body have been affected by the beatings.

11        A.   They beat me all over my body, with the exception of my legs.  It

12     was mostly my back, the stomach, my head.

13        Q.   One of the beatings you were mentioning prior to the break caused

14     you being unconscious.  Was there any additional bodily harm inflicted by

15     this beating?

16        A.   As a result of these beatings, I was wounded.  I had two cracks

17     in my head.  One was four to five centimetres wide, four to five

18     centimetres long - you can still see it - and the other was a

19     two-centimetre wound at the back of my head.

20        Q.   Witness XA, you were just mentioning that one can still see the

21     scar that has been caused by this beating.  Can you please show to the

22     Judges the scar on your head that has been the result of the beating that

23     caused you being unconscious.

24             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honour, the witness is prepared to show the

25     participants of this trial the scar, and the witness -- whatever you

Page 1436

 1     wish -- can either come to the Judges's desk or whatever you think is the

 2     appropriate proceedings.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It won't be

 4     necessary for him to show everyone the scar, but he can use his finger to

 5     point to the location of his scar.  We will trust him.  Unless the

 6     Defence wants to see it for himself.

 7             Witness, please point to the scar on your head.  Use your finger

 8     to do so.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The scar is here.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Is this a problem

11     for the Defence?  Otherwise the Defence the approach the witness to check

12     the scar.

13             Very well.  Please proceed.

14             MR. WITHOPF:

15        Q.   Was there any medical treatment you got in the Zenica Music

16     School after you had been hit on the head and this scar, or this wound,

17     has been inflicted on your head?

18        A.   This blow to my head was dealt to me on the first day, and the

19     wound remained an open wound for the 15 days that I was there.  No one

20     treated me at all.

21        Q.   Can you please inform us whether this wound, this open wound, was

22     visible to the guards.

23        A.   They were able to see the open wounds at all times, because it

24     was bleeding all the time.  They could see it.

25        Q.   Can you please tell us which military unit the guards in the

Page 1437

 1     Zenica Music School were part of.

 2        A.   The guards in the Zenica Music School belonged to the 7th Muslim

 3     Brigade.

 4        Q.   Other than the beatings, the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain

 5     Brigade, were there any threats from their side?

 6        A.   Yes.  They did make threats.

 7        Q.   Can you please detail which sort of threats.

 8        A.   When I was supposed to leave the Music School, or rather, when

 9     they wanted to transfer me to the KPD, the correctional facility, then I

10     had to go up to the first floor to be questioned, at which point their

11     interrogator said that if I told anyone about what had happened, about

12     everything that had happened, after having left Zenica, if I told anyone

13     about anything that had happened, they said that they would find the most

14     distant relatives of mine, my parents, and that wherever they were in the

15     world, regardless of where they were in the world, he said that he would

16     kill them.

17        Q.   Has there been any threat to kill you whilst you have been in the

18     Zenica Music School?

19        A.   They threatened to kill me on several occasions.  I remember one

20     occasion when two Muslim policemen took me outside the Music School.  I

21     was given a pickaxe, and they told me to dig a hole in the ground, which

22     I did for about half an hour.  And then they started laughing and they

23     said that I should dig deeper, because that was going to be my grave. 

24     They said it shouldn't be shallow; it should be a deep grave.

25        Q.   Was there any other detainee with you when you dug what has been

Page 1438

 1     said being your grave?

 2        A.   Yes.  There was another detainee with me.  He was also digging

 3     another hole next to where I was, but it wasn't as large as the one I was

 4     digging.  And afterwards, a little later on, they put some rubbish in

 5     that hole.  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WITHOPF:

21        Q.   Witness XA, can you please, for the information of the Trial

22     Chamber, describe the food conditions and the sanitary conditions in the

23     Zenica Music School, the conditions for the detainees.

24        A.   The first 40 hours, we weren't given anything to eat.  The

25     sanitary conditions were terrible.  We slept on wooden sort of pallets,

Page 1439

 1     and in the left corner we had a container, five-litre container, which we

 2     used to relieve ourselves.  To the right, there were four to five benches

 3     which we used to sleep. 

 4             When someone came to the basement, at any time, three or four or

 5     2.00 in the morning, we all had to sit and look down at the ground.  We

 6     were never allowed to raise our heads.  The sanitary conditions were very

 7     bad.

 8        Q.   After you haven't got anything to eat for the first 40 hours,

 9     what did you get to eat after the first 40 hours?

10        A.   Every time they gave us something to eat, it was actually a

11     little bit of water with some rice in it.

12        Q.   What does it mean "every time they gave us something to eat"? 

13     Can you please go into some detail.

14        A.   After those two days, we were sometimes given meals twice a day,

15     sometimes once a day, and it was always water and rice.  That's what it

16     was like until the end of my stay there.

17        Q.   Can you please inform the Trial Chamber how many other detainees

18     were detained in the basement of the Zenica Music School during the time

19     you have been a detainee in the Zenica Music School.

20        A.   When I arrived, there were roughly ten other detainees there, and

21     every day the number of detainees changed.  Sometimes -- actually, 25 to

22     30 was the highest number that I saw, and the least I saw was 10.  But

23     the detainees were never the same.  Some would stay for three days, and

24     you would never see them again; then they would bring in some other ones;

25     and that's how it was.

Page 1440

 1        Q.   What about the ethnicity of the other detainees?

 2        A.   While I was there, there were two Serb detainees, and all the

 3     rest were Croats.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly request that the microphone

 5     of the President be switched off.  Thank you.

 6             MR. WITHOPF:

 7        Q.   There were two Serb detainees, and all the rest of the detainees

 8     were Croats.  The detainees, were they soldiers or were they civilians,

 9     as far as you can tell?

10        A.   As far as I could tell, most of them were soldiers, but there

11     were some civilians too.

12        Q.   Can you, Witness XA, please provide us with some names of the

13     other detainees?

14             MR. WITHOPF:  And I would request the Trial Chamber to order to

15     redact the respective portion of the transcript.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Registrar, would you

17     redact the names just cited.

18                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And, in view of the fact that

20     the public is able to hear, the people in the public gallery, these

21     answers should be given in private session.  So, Mr. Usher, having said

22     that, may we go into private session, please.

23             I know it's complicated, but we must all make an effort.  And

24     we'll have to see from one moment to the next.

25                           [Private session]

Page 1441

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1442

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Withopf.

 2             MR. WITHOPF:

 3        Q.   Witness XA, the other detainees, were they beaten as well?

 4        A.   Yes.  All of us there were beaten, some more, some less; but all

 5     of us were beaten, yes.

 6        Q.   Were all of you beaten by the same people, meaning members of the

 7     7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

 8        A.   Yes, all of them were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

 9        Q.   The bodily injuries inflicted on the other detainees, were they a

10     similar scale?  Were they of a similar scale as the ones you had to

11     suffer from?

12        A.   It depended.  With some, they were on a similar scale; with

13     others, less.  But most of the people with me had serious bodily harm

14     inflicted on them.

15        Q.   Can you describe the serious bodily harm which was inflicted on

16     other detainees?

17        A.   One of the detainees was injured in such a way that his left arm

18     was fractured.  I know his name.  I forgot to mention it a moment ago.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please avoid giving

20     names at this point.  Now, if you really want to give a name, we can go

21     back into private session.  So if you wish to substantiate an injury by

22     giving a name, we can go into private session.  So please tell us, warn

23     us in advance, so that we can go back into private session.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Withopf.

25             MR. WITHOPF:  I would suggest to go into private session to

Page 1443

 1     enable the witness to inform you about the name.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Private session

 3     again, please.

 4                           [Private session]

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1444

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

 6             MR. WITHOPF:

 7        Q.   These bodily injuries you were just detailing, were they either

 8     visible or were they known to the guards?

 9        A.   All those bodily injuries were caused by those same guards, so

10     everybody could see them.  They were quite obvious and evident.

11        Q.   Were the guards actually the very same persons who beat the

12     prisoners?

13        A.   Yes.  They were guards too.  Actually, they weren't guards; they

14     were just the people who were on the first floor all the time, that is to

15     say, the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.  That's who they

16     were.

17        Q.   Moving on to a different issue, Witness XA:  Have you ever seen

18     Mujahedin in the Zenica Music School?

19        A.   At the Zenica Music School, on the eighth day that I was there in

20     the school, they didn't beat me on that particular day, and one of those

21     policemen belonging to the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade

22     arrived and told me to go upstairs, to the upper storey, to wash the

23     toilets there.  And the WC was to the left of the entrance.  On the

24     right-hand side there were three or four men who spoke Arabic, and they

25     had long beards and rifles.  And on the butts, there were some sort of

Page 1445

 1     scarves, and there were some Arabic writing on the scarves.  And I think

 2     that they were the Mujahedin.

 3        Q.   This particular room in which you have seen the Mujahedin, was

 4     there any writing on the door? 

 5        A.   On the door of that room there was some writing, right at the

 6     top, and it was something written down in Arabic.  And in the middle of

 7     the door, in the Latin script, it said "Hezbollah."

 8        Q.   Witness XA, what was your impression of this room?  What purpose

 9     did this room, based on your impression, serve for?

10        A.   I saw the room.  It was open.  I saw bunk-beds.  And there were

11     some soldiers lying down on them in boots.  Some of them were laughing. 

12     Their rifles were hung on the bed posts.  I think it was a dormitory,

13     which enough room to take 20 people.

14        Q.   And how many of such Mujahedin have you seen in the Zenica Music

15     School?

16        A.   I just saw those three or four that day.  I didn't see any more

17     people speaking Arabic in the Music School.  As to the other policemen

18     who were there, they were speaking our own language, but they also had

19     very long beards, so it was difficult to distinguish the Mujahedin from

20     them, until they began speaking Arabic.

21        Q.   Did you actually hear the individuals whom you describe as being

22     Mujahedin speaking Arabic?

23        A.   Yes.  On that particular day, I did hear them speaking Arabic,

24     and that's why I said that I had seen the Mujahedin, precisely because

25     they were speaking Arabic.

Page 1446

 1             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show

 2     the Witness XA, again, Prosecution Exhibit P5.  That's the photo board

 3     with the shoulder patches.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.  We must

 5     decide about the fate of the other exhibits which were placed on standby.

 6     If I remember correctly, the photograph showing the Music School building

 7     was one of them, and he can authenticate the photograph with his name. 

 8     Now -- and that's what he did, I believe.

 9             So, Witness, you now have the photograph of the Music School.

10     Could you place your name and date, today's date, on the photograph.  You

11     placed a cross on that photograph.

12             Is that right, Mr. Withopf?

13             MR. WITHOPF:  Right, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I wish to make

14     the witness mark some additional markings at a later point of today's

15     proceedings; therefore, if you could just, for a few minutes, postpone

16     this procedure.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you prefer to

18     take the documents together.  As you wish.

19             Witness, keep the document beside you, and we'll decide on what

20     we're going to do with it once the Prosecutor feels you don't need to go

21     back to the documents.

22             So you're going to show him another document now; is that right?

23             MR. WITHOPF:  Right.  Your Honours, I'm going to show the witness

24     the Prosecution Exhibit P5, which has been shown to the witness at an

25     earlier point in time of today's proceedings.

Page 1447

 1             Can the witness please be shown the Prosecution Exhibit P5.  It's

 2     on the screen, I understand.

 3        Q.   Witness XA, do you see the photo board with a number of different

 4     military shoulder patches in front of you on the screen?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Can you please identify the one or the ones you've seen in the

 7     Zenica Music School.

 8        A.   As I've already said, number 16 was the one I saw, as well as

 9     patch number 21.  I saw that particular patch on the scarves and head

10     scarves, but it wasn't quite like that.  It said "Jihad," and it said

11     something in Arabic.  There was the star, the crescent, and a sabre on

12     it.  I didn't see any of the other patches in the Music School.

13        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness XA.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So number -- patch

15     21 does not quite correspond to the patch he actually saw, because he

16     said there was an inscription on it, I think, but he said he saw he saw a

17     sabre.  So he says that it wasn't exactly the same as the patch on the

18     photograph; at least on the basis of the interpretation I was given.

19             Please continue.

20             MR. WITHOPF:

21        Q.   Witness XA, can you please, in some more detail, describe the

22     difference between the patch you've seen on the photo board, or you see

23     on the photo board in front of you, and the patch you've actually seen in

24     the Zenica Music School.

25        A.   In the Zenica Music School, I saw the patch on the scarf and on

Page 1448

 1     the head scarves, on which it said "Jihad," as it says here on this

 2     patch, patch 21.  It was exactly like that, except the shape was

 3     different.

 4        Q.   And what was the difference in shape?

 5        A.   At the bottom, it was rectangular.  Otherwise, everything else

 6     was the same.  Everything else that it said on it was the same.  But it

 7     wasn't a triangle; it was a rectangle.

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.  Witness, you have in front of you --

 9     Witness XA, you have in front of you the photograph with the building

10     which you identified as the Zenica Music School.  Can you see on this

11     photograph the room in which the Mujahedin were located within the Zenica

12     Music School?

13        A.   Yes, I can.

14             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, I think we have to follow the same

15     procedures previously today in the proceedings.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, quite.  Please proceed.

17             MR. WITHOPF:

18        Q.   Can you please mark on this photograph the room in which the

19     Mujahedin were located.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Residovic.

21             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] What I can see it says on the

22     English transcript here, the Prosecutor mentioned twice -- said they are

23     located, and the interpretation we are receiving means where they were

24     put up, accommodated.  Now, the witness never spoke about the

25     accommodation of the Mujahedin.  He was talking about the room in which

Page 1449

 1     he saw the Mujahedin.  So I don't think that the Prosecutor should rely

 2     on something that the witness didn't say.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps there's a problem of

 4     interpretation once again between B/C/S, English, and French.  Of course,

 5     if everybody spoke French, there would be no problem, but as that is not

 6     the case, we have to deal with the situation.

 7             Mr. Withopf, would you ask your question again, bearing in mind

 8     the pertinent observation made by the Defence.

 9             MR. WITHOPF:  Very well.

10        Q.   Witness XA, can you identify and mark on the photograph in front

11     of you the room in which you have seen the Mujahedin during the time of

12     your detention in the Zenica Music School.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you please mark this room on the photograph in front of you.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could place

17     the photograph on the ELMO so that we can all see it.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

20             MR. WITHOPF:

21        Q.   Witness XA, unfortunately, I can't see whether you have already

22     marked the room in which you have seen the Mujahedin.

23        A.   Yes, I have marked that room.

24        Q.   Can you please add a straight line from this marking to the grey

25     area of the photograph and write down "this is the room in which I've

Page 1450

 1     seen the Mujahedin."

 2                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since we're in open session, if

 4     we want to show the photograph, place it on the ELMO, we'll have to go

 5     into private session.  Perhaps it's not necessary to show it at this

 6     point, so we can stay in open session.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 8             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honours, this is the last marking I wanted the

 9     witness to draw on this photograph, and it can be now, please, be

10     tendered into evidence, after the witness dated and signed it and it has

11     been shown to Defence and the accused, please.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you please put

13     your name on the photograph, and today's date.  And it is the 14th of

14     January, 2004, today.  That's the date.

15             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, could you take the

17     photograph and show it to the Prosecution so that they can check what has

18     been noted.

19             Please show it to the Defence, who will examine everything that

20     has been written down very carefully.  Show it to the accused, who will

21     take their time to examine it.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will have a

24     look at it too.  Could we have a number, an exhibit number,

25     Mr. Registrar.

Page 1451

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P7.1,

 2     under seal.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honour, I would like to use this opportunity

 5     to also tender the second photograph, showing the basement of the Zenica

 6     Music School, into evidence, after the witness has dated and signed it.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as you did a minute

 8     ago, please mark your first and last name on this second photograph, and

 9     today's date.

10             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document will be shown to

12     the Prosecution, then to the Defence, and to the accused.  Mr. Registrar,

13     could we have an exhibit number, after having shown us the document in

14     question.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P8.1,

16     under seal.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have remembered this

18     correctly, he should have written something down.  He wrote something

19     down on a white piece of paper, and we haven't decided on what to do with

20     this piece of paper yet.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we have dealt with

23     all the exhibits.  Usher, could you just check to see that there are no

24     other documents with the witness.

25             There are no other documents, then.

Page 1452

 1             Mr. Withopf, would you like to proceed with your

 2     examination-in-chief.

 3             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   In the Zenica Music School, Witness XA, there were the members of

 5     the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, as you informed the Trial Chamber about;

 6     there were the members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade military

 7     police, as you informed the Trial Chamber about; and there were the

 8     Mujahedin, as you informed the Trial Chamber about.  How would you

 9     describe --

10             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that we

11     discussed this matter a minute ago, and we said that the Mujahedin

12     weren't accommodated there.  The witness said that he only saw them there

13     on one occasion, and that was on the eighth day.

14             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honour, there's obviously a translation

15     problem.  I said nothing else that the Mujahedin were in the Zenica Music

16     School.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but it's possible to

18     be there in two modes.  One can be passing through, one can be there on a

19     temporary basis, or on a permanent basis.  If you want your witness to

20     provide you with details, do ask him some questions.  But the Defence

21     quite rightly pointed out that you cannot claim that its members were

22     there at all times, all the time, because that is not what the witness

23     said.  You, therefore, have to ask the witness to provide more details

24     about the situation, because, for the moment, we don't know what sort of

25     situation these people were in.

Page 1453

 1             MR. WITHOPF:  Right.  Very well.

 2        Q.   Witness XA, in the Zenica Music School, there were members of the

 3     7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and there were members of the 7th Muslim

 4     Mountain Brigade military police, and you have seen Mujahedin in the

 5     Zenica Music School.  How would you describe the relation between the

 6     members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, the members of the 7th Muslim

 7     Mountain Brigade's military police, and the Mujahedin you have seen in

 8     the Zenica Music School?

 9        A.   The relations between the members of the military police of the

10     7th Muslim Brigade and the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade, the

11     soldiers, and the Mujahedin that I saw there, relations were very close,

12     and the soldiers of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the Mujahedin members that

13     I saw there, I think that they went to the battlefield together.  But the

14     Mujahedin were there on a temporary basis, I think.  I only saw them on

15     that occasion, and never again.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Residovic.

17             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to say that the

18     witness said only what is stated in the last sentence, and he said that

19     before:  I saw them then, and never again.  Everything else is no more

20     than opinion and conclusions that have no grounds, and I think that the

21     sort of question put to the witness by the Prosecution and this response

22     are not in accordance with the Rules that should be followed when

23     questioning an ordinary, factual witness.

24             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, if I could please respond.  Defence

25     counsel may later on cross-examine the witness on this issue, but this is

Page 1454

 1     not the right time to make a legal argument on this issue.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The essence of the question is

 3     whether the witness saw the people that he mentioned only occasionally,

 4     or whether it was on a permanent basis, and this is what the Defence has

 5     pointed out.  So the witness should avoid inferences.

 6             Witness, you've been asked to say what you saw.  What did you

 7     really see?  What was the situation?  Did you see there all the time,

 8     only temporarily, only occasionally?  What did you actually see?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the Mujahedin on the eighth

10     day.  They spoke in the Arabic language.  And after that, I never saw

11     them in the Music School again.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the witness has told us that

13     he saw them on the eighth day and that after that day he did not see them

14     again.  Isn't that correct?

15             Mr. Withopf, having clarified the matter, please continue with

16     your examination-in-chief.

17             MR. WITHOPF:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Witness XA, you mentioned several times that you have been

19     interrogated.  Do you still recall the name of the interrogator?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Again, the situation is

21     identical.  If he mentions the name, as we are in open session, he could

22     be identified.  So we will go into private session.

23             Mr. Registrar, could we go into private session, please.

24                           [Private session]

25  (redacted)

Page 1455

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please carry on, Mr. Withopf,

23     but keep an eye on the clock, because we still need time for the

24     cross-examination.

25             MR. WITHOPF:  I'll do, Mr. President.

Page 1456

 1        Q.   When you were brought -- Witness XA, when you were brought to the

 2     Zenica Music School and you entered the Zenica Music School, did you see

 3     anything in written at the main entrance door of the Zenica Music School?

 4        A.   At the entrance to the Music School in Zenica, the entrance door

 5     consisted of iron bars, and there was the inscription "the 7th Muslim

 6     Brigade" above the door.

 7        Q.   Was there anything else written at the door or at the vicinity of

 8     the door?

 9        A.   Nothing else was written on the door, but nearby, as I have

10     already said, to the right in that room, there was something in Arabic on

11     the door that was written there, and it said "Hezbollah" in the Latin

12     script.

13        Q.   Witness XA, can you please detail for the information of the

14     Trial Chamber the proceedings prior to your transfer to the KP Dom.

15        A.   Before I was transferred to the KP Dom, on that night - it was

16     perhaps 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning - then three men appeared.  I think

17     they were commanders, because they were wearing better uniforms than the

18     others that were there.  But they didn't have ranks of any kind.  They

19     said all the blood that I had on me should be washed and that I was going

20     to be escorted by two policemen. 

21             I went up to the first floor.  I washed the blood off, to the

22     extent that this was possible, but it wasn't possible to wash it all off. 

23     So they sent me back on three occasions to wash all the blood off.  I

24     wasn't able to wash all of it off, but after an hour had passed, they put

25     me in a bus and took me to the KP Dom in Zenica.  It was a VW bus.

Page 1457

 1        Q.   Witness XA, the three men who were wearing better uniforms than

 2     the others and who didn't have any ranks of any kind, did they, however,

 3     have any military insignia on their uniforms?

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7        Q.   Did you get to know at some point in time, Witness XA, who have

 8     been the three officers or the three individuals with the better military

 9     uniforms you were just talking about?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Since we are in

11     open session, the name that was mentioned could be means of

12     identification.  So, Mr. Registrar, it is necessary to delete this name

13     from the audiotape.  Things are proceeding so rapidly that it is only

14     later that we notice that there is a problem.

15             In line 19, 17:18:15 is the hour, it is necessary to delete this

16     name from the audiotape.  So have me sign an order to this effect.

17             Please continue.  We are still in open session.

18             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, Your Honours, if you have the very

19     same concerns in the event the witness answers my last question, we

20     should go back into private session again.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll go back into

22     private session, Mr. Registrar.

23                           [Private session]

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1458

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, we are back in open session.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

14             MR. WITHOPF:

15        Q.   Witness XA, do you still recall the date when you were actually

16     transferred to the KP Dom in Zenica?

17        A.   I was transferred to the KP Dom in Zenica on the 5th of May,

18     1993.  I stayed in the KP Dom until the 19th of June, 1993.

19        Q.   Upon arrival at the KP Dom on the 5th of May, 1993 -- who brought

20     you at the KP Dom?

21        A.   Members of the 7th Muslim Brigade took me to the KP Dom.  They

22     used a small VW bus to take me there.

23        Q.   And who received you in the KP Dom?

24        A.   Members of the military police of the BH Army received me there.

25     And when I arrived there, they told me I was lucky that I wasn't being

Page 1459

 1     put in solitary confinement.  I was told that I would be with all the

 2     detainees, the HVO members who were already there, and there were between

 3     four and five hundred of them.  They told me that I first had to wash all

 4     the blood off me, every drop of blood, that not a single drop of blood

 5     should be visible on me, and they said that they would then take me to

 6     the KP Dom, where all the other detainees were located.  On the first

 7     day, they took me to wash myself.  I then washed off the blood.  And on

 8     the second day, members of the Red Cross came and registered me.

 9        Q.   For clarification purposes, were the men who told you that you

10     first had to wash all the blood off you, every drop a blood, that not a

11     single drop of blood should be visible on you, were these the members of

12     the military police of the BH Army?

13        A.   The person who told me that I had to wash myself was a member of

14     the BH Army military police.

15        Q.   Did you, Witness XA, still have any visible wounds at the time

16     you were transferred to the KP Dom?

17        A.   Yes, I did still have visible wounds.  But when the Red Cross

18     registered me, they told the guards that I had to be provided with

19     medical treatment immediately.  A doctor arrived, and he helped me; he

20     treated me.

21        Q.   What sort of doctor was it?  Was it a civilian or a military

22     doctor?

23        A.   He was a civilian doctor.

24        Q.   When were you finally being released from the KP Dom?

25        A.   I was released from the KP Dom on the 19th of June, 1993.

Page 1460

 1        Q.   Witness XA, did you know at the time where the ABiH 3rd Corps

 2     headquarters was located?

 3        A.   The headquarters, at the time it was located in the Travnik

 4     Street, in the Institut.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution please

 6     accelerate a bit, because we'll have to have the break soon.  How much

 7     more time do you need?

 8             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I anticipate that I

 9     won't need more time than five minutes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             Mr. Registrar, do we have another five minutes at our disposal?

12     We should have another five minutes.  Good.  Please continue.

13             MR. WITHOPF:

14        Q.   Witness XA, you were just informing the Trial Chamber that the

15     headquarters of the ABiH 3rd Corps at the time was located in the Travnik

16     Street, in the Institut.  How far is this location away from the Zenica

17     Music School?

18        A.   It was not more than 800 metres from the Music School in Zenica.

19        Q.   Witness XA, did you know at the time where the headquarters of

20     the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was located?

21        A.   The command of the 7th Muslim Brigade was in Milimiste [as

22     interpreted], in the barracks.

23        Q.   In the transcript it says "Milimiste."  Isn't -- can you please

24     spell the name of the location where the 7th Muslim Brigade headquarters

25     was located, or can you just repeat the name of the location.

Page 1461

 1        A.   Bilmiste, B, Bilmiste.

 2        Q.   Witness XA, how far is this location, the command of the 7th

 3     Muslim Mountain Brigade, away from the -- was it away from the Zenica

 4     Music School?

 5        A.   About three kilometres.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness XA.

 7             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honours, this concludes the

 8     examination-in-chief.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In order to allow

10     the Defence counsel to proceed with their cross-examination, the Trial

11     Chamber won't ask any questions, although we have a lot of questions. 

12     But it's necessary for the cross-examination to be completed. 

13             It is half past 5.00.  We will have the pause, in accordance with

14     the regulations, and we will resume at 5 to 6.00.  And the Defence will

15     have one hour and five minutes to carry out its cross-examination.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed at 5.55,

19     which gives the Defence an hour for their cross-examination, without

20     wasting any further time, I give the floor to the Defence.

21             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1462

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In order to protect

20     confidentiality, I should like to have a ruling prepared, or rather,

21     would the registrar please redact that from the transcript.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I have permission to say

24     "XA"?  In my language, there's a different word for witness in the

25     masculine, and witness in the feminine.  So when I say witness, I will

Page 1463

 1     have to use one or the other.  But yes, I will do my best to call you

 2     "XA."

 3        Q.   Now, on other occasions, did you ever make statements, or to

 4     other organs, about what you have testified to today; and if so, would

 5     you please tell us.

 6        A.   You've already asked me.  Yes, on one other occasion, but there

 7     were no other subsequent occasions.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  May I ask you to make a pause after hearing my

 9     question for my microphone to be switched off, so that your voice can't

10     be picked up on my microphone.  Thank you.

11             Is it true and correct that in May and June 1992, in the

12     immediate vicinity of your country, conflicts began with the Serb army?

13        A.   Conflicts with the Serb army, or rather, between them and the

14     HVO, never occurred in my own village, but there were conflicts between

15     the Serb village of Osojnica and the Muslim village of Ljubac [phoen].

16        Q.   On that occasion, did the inhabitants of your village organise

17     themselves because they felt tension in your immediate environment?

18        A.   The population did organise itself.  Yes, that is true.

19        Q.   At the time, you had your own weapon; is that right, and you were

20     armed with that weapon?

21        A.   I did not have my own weapon, but I was issued a Kalashnikov.

22        Q.   In the village, you organised patrols and village guards; is that

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Until November 1992, you did not belong, in formal terms, to any

Page 1464

 1     army, did you?

 2        A.   No, I did not belong to any army until that date.

 3        Q.   Asked by my learned colleague of the Prosecution, you said that

 4     you joined the HVO in November 1992; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is right.

 6        Q.   As a member of the Jure Francetic Brigade, you and all the other

 7     members of that brigade had uniforms and weapons; is that correct?

 8        A.   We didn't all have uniforms and weapons.  At the time I joined

 9     up, when I joined the brigade, the Jure Francetic Brigade, one platoon

10     numbered approximately 30 men.  Of those 30 men, about 20 of them were

11     armed and in uniform.

12        Q.   Thank you.  When you were transferred to the military police of

13     that brigade, as a military policeman, you had authority over members of

14     your own brigade; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  Our authority was restricted to the members of our own

16     brigade.  However, we worked together with the members of the members of

17     the military police of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina wherever there was

18     a conflict between the Muslim units and our units, or where there were

19     problems between the two ethnic groups.  Then we would go to intervene

20     together.

21        Q.   That means that up until this event, when Zivko Totic was

22     kidnapped -- that is to say, your commander -- you frequently went on

23     patrol together and solved problems together with the military police of

24     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that's right, isn't it?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 1465

 1        Q.   The HVO had its own checkpoints at some of the exits from town,

 2     especially the ones in the direction of Ovnak; is that right?

 3        A.   What period are you referring to?

 4        Q.   In the spring of 1993.

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 6        Q.   You were on duty at the Rudarski Hotel, or miners' hotel, when

 7     you received information that Commander Zivko Totic had allegedly been

 8     killed; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, that is right.

10        Q.   As you were on the spot to provide security, you learnt from

11     eyewitnesses that Zivko Totic was taken off in a Mercedes kombi van; is

12     that right?

13        A.   In a white kombi van, a Mercedes one, which had no windshield in

14     front.  Yes, that is correct.

15        Q.   The van belonged to the Mujahedin, and they had been seen around

16     driving the van previously; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that is right.  I would see them personally on occasion. 

18     Frequently, actually.

19        Q.   Asked by the Prosecutor, you said that they would be seen in town

20     from time to time.  Now, I'm asking you the following:  Is it true and

21     correct that many inhabitants and members of the HVO and the army were

22     rather afraid of the Mujahedin when they came across them in town?

23        A.   Yes, that is true too, that the members of other ethnic groups

24     were also afraid of those Mujahedin.

25        Q.   While you were providing security at the crime scene, where

Page 1466

 1     Commander Totic was captured, you said that investigators from the army

 2     turned up, and from the civilian police, the MUP of Zenica, in fact; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   No, that is not correct.  I didn't say that the civilian police

 5     of the MUP of Zenica arrived.  What I said was that members of the BH

 6     Army arrived on the spot, as did members of the HVO, and also members of

 7     the HDZ, the political party, and members of the other political party,

 8     the SDA.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to intervene for the

10     same reason.  I think that I'm going to give the floor first to

11     Mr. Withopf.

12             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I noticed on repeated

13     occasions that my learned colleague is asking questions and making

14     reference to "the army."  Since there are different armies involved, I

15     would like to ask my learned colleague to identify which army she is

16     talking about.

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1467

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted).  Witness XA, when I said "the army," when I

 8     say "the army," is it clear to you that I mean the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   To me, that was quite clear, that you meant the

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina Army.  But I'd like to ask you to say, to tell me

12     whether you think that the 7th Muslim Brigade belonged to the BH Army,

13     was it part of the BH Army.

14        Q.   I'm not in a position to be able to answer your questions, so

15     please accept this.

16             On the 18th of April, is it true that you found yourself up at

17     the front line, near a place called Grm?  And I mean the time when the

18     attack you mentioned was launched against the Croatian centre, or Dom. 

19     Is it true and correct that you received an order to withdraw to the

20     Croatian village of Grm?

21        A.   Could you switch your microphone off, please.  Thank you.

22             That is correct, and that took place on the 18th of April.  We

23     withdrew to Grm, and once we arrived up there, it was about 5.00 a.m.,

24     and we were at the Zrnici house, houses.  They were all Croatian houses,

25     and they were ablaze when I got there.

Page 1468

 1             After that, we withdrew, following orders from Vinko Baresic, who

 2     replaced Zivko Totic, and we withdrew to Cajdras, which is where we

 3     stayed until about noon, until the Croatian houses were burning at Grm.

 4     And then Baresic said that we should all surrender, and that's what I did

 5     too.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You've answered another two or three questions that I

 7     had intended to ask you.

 8             So once you received the order to surrender, you went to your

 9     sister's house and changed until civilian clothing from your army

10     uniform; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, that is right.

12        Q.   After that, five or six buses arrived, together with the military

13     and civilian police, and they were supposed to drive you to the KP Dom,

14     the correctional facility; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I might mention

17     certain names in my next two questions, so may we move into private

18     session, please.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you for taking that

20     precaution.

21             Mr. Registrar, may we go into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1469

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1470

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Is it true that you stayed in that apartment until you were led

11     off?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.

13             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   As I was saying, is it true that you stayed in your friend's

15     apartment until you were taken away to the Music School?  Is that right?

16        A.   I stayed in that apartment until the members of the 7th Muslim

17     Brigade came to fetch us, and that was during the night, at about 1.00

18     p.m., when they took me to the Music School.  Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   I'm not going to ask you anything more of what you experienced in

20     the Music School, because you've already explained that in great detail

21     to the Court.  All I would like to ask you is this:  Is it true that the

22     threats uttered, when they told you that you weren't allowed to tell

23     anybody what had happened to you, did you take that to be a serious

24     threat?

25        A.   Yes.  I took it very seriously.

Page 1471

 1        Q.   Was that the reason why you never told anyone while you were in

 2     Zenica of what you had experienced at the Music School?

 3        A.   That was one of the reasons, yes.

 4        Q.   The day after you arrived in the KP Dom, you said that you were

 5     visited by the International Red Cross.  Is it true that in Zenica you

 6     had some relatives too?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I did have relatives there.

 8        Q.   Is it also true and correct that your aunt visited you and

 9     brought you a change of clothing, and that you were able to write to your

10     relatives?

11        A.   My aunt did visit me.  She brought me food and clothing.  But I

12     never wrote to any other relations, because I didn't know where they

13     were.

14        Q.   In the KP Dom, you were also visited by the late - he is deceased

15     today - he was the parish priest from Cajdras; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  He visited all of us.

17        Q.   You were released from the KP Dom in June 1993, on the 19th of

18     June, I believe, and were transferred to Vitez; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   And you spoke about your difficult experience in the Music School

21     for the first time to the investigator of the Tribunal; is that right?

22        A.   Could you repeat that question, please.

23        Q.   Is it true that the first time you spoke about your difficult

24     experiences in the Music School was when you spoke to the investigator of

25     The Hague Tribunal?

Page 1472

 1        A.   Yes, that is right.

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would the Kubura Defence like

 5     to ask any questions?  I give them the floor.

 6             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, we do have

 7     several questions for this witness, and may we move into private session,

 8     because we're going to mention certain names which could indicate the

 9     identity of this witness.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Registrar, may

11     we move into private session.  Do the necessary.

12                           [Private session]

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 1473











11    Pages 1473-1476 redacted. Private session.















Page 1477

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Witness, I have two

21     questions that concern the facts you have testified about. 

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These questions relate directly

24     to what you did and saw.  We do not know what your military rank was. 

25     You said that you were a policeman, a military policeman in the HVO.  But

Page 1478

 1     were you an ordinary policeman or did you have a superior rank?  What was

 2     your position?  What was your rank.

 3        A.   I didn't have a rank of any kind in the military police of the

 4     Jure Francetic Brigade.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  And my

 6     second question, which is a is he very simple one:  When you were

 7     transferred to the KP Dom, when you arrived in this prison, did you sign,

 8     register an entry register; did they make you sign a register or did they

 9     just make you enter without your name being noted, without any

10     supervision?

11        A.   No, I didn't sign a register of any kind, not until two days

12     later, when representatives of the Red Cross arrived.  I wasn't assigned

13     a number of any kind in the KP Dom.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And when you left

15     the KP Dom, were you asked to sign a document, a piece of paper, to put

16     your name down in the register, or did you just leave without any other

17     administrative procedures having been followed?

18        A.   When I was leaving the KP Dom, I signed a statement which I had

19     been given by the commanders in the KP Dom, and this statement stated

20     that when I arrived in the musical school -- it said when I arrived in

21     the musical school, when I left the musical school, when I arrived in the

22     KP Dom, and when I left the KP Dom.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that you

24     signed a piece of paper when you were released; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 1479

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Does the

 2     Prosecution have any additional questions to put to the witness?  And if

 3     these questions contain any details that might permit the witness to be

 4     identified, tell us, so that we can go into private session.

 5             MR. WITHOPF:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has no further

 6     questions to this witness.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

 8             Witness XA, the Trial Chamber would like to thank you for having

 9     testified here.  You came here to testify for the Prosecution.  You have

10     testified and you have answered all the questions put to you.  We wish

11     you a good trip back.  I'm going to ask the usher, who should first check

12     that the blinds have been lowered before you leave the courtroom.  We

13     must pay attention to all the details, in spite of the fact that no one

14     appears to be present in the public gallery.  But it's best to follow

15     this procedure.

16             Witness XA, you will now be taken out of the courtroom, and I'd

17     like to thank you again.

18             Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the courtroom.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go back into public

21     session.  The blinds need to be raised again, and we'll go back into

22     public -- into open session again.  But we need to raise the blinds.  It

23     would be best if the Presiding Judge could press a button to do this

24     himself.  It would be more rapid.

25                           [Open session]

Page 1480

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll turn to Mr. Withopf again. 

 2     We'll have a new witness tomorrow.  Can you confirm that this -- can you

 3     make sure that the witness will be here and that there won't be any

 4     problems?  Can you confirm this?

 5             MR. WITHOPF:  Mr. President, Your Honours, the situation is as

 6     follows:  We have one witness available to testify tomorrow afternoon. 

 7     That's the first one, which is scheduled for Thursday, 15 January 2004,

 8     on our witness schedule. 

 9             The second witness named on this schedule is not available. 

10     There are some problems with the travel documents and he cannot be made

11     available at this point in time.  So we have one witness for tomorrow. 

12             We have one witness for Friday.  The witness for Friday is

13     exactly the one which is mentioned on our witness schedule.  We

14     anticipate the examination-in-chief of the witness which is scheduled for

15     tomorrow lasting for about one hour and 30 minutes.  If Your Honours

16     think it would be helpful to continue afterwards with the witness who is

17     scheduled for Friday, that can be made possible.  At this stage, this is

18     subject to changes, but I could give you some indication in the course of

19     tomorrow morning, as I would do to the Defence.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Withopf, if your

21     Friday witness, if you could bring your Friday witness here tomorrow,

22     that would be good, but I don't know where this witness scheduled for

23     Friday is.  I don't know whether he's still on his way here.  But that

24     would be useful.  The Trial Chamber understands that it's difficult to

25     organise all of this, but naturally, there is nothing to prevent us from

Page 1481

 1     bringing the witness scheduled for Friday to the courtroom tomorrow,

 2     providing he is here.  And I don't think the Defence would find this

 3     inconvenient, given that they have prepared themselves already, and this

 4     shouldn't present any particular problems.  Given that we are well aware

 5     of the significant amount of work done by both parties.

 6             So if the witness could appear tomorrow, that would be good.  So

 7     this means that the second witness scheduled for Thursday, if you can't

 8     reach that witness, this witness should be heard next week.  That is how

 9     I have understood the situation.  Unless the witness scheduled for

10     Thursday appears on Friday.

11             Mr. Withopf, could you provide us with some clarification.

12             MR. WITHOPF:  Right.  Tomorrow we will have the witness which is

13     mentioned as the first one on the witness schedule for tomorrow.  We will

14     do everything possible to have the witness who is scheduled for Friday

15     following the testimony of the first witness scheduled for tomorrow,

16     immediately afterwards this schedule, but it depends on a number of

17     issues that still have to be sorted out.  I will inform both Your Honours

18     and Defence in due time on this issue.

19             The witness who is scheduled on the witness schedule as the

20     second one for tomorrow, this witness is as it stands now, and this is

21     again subject to change, as this one will be scheduled for Thursday.  I

22     think it's a Thursday, the 5th of February.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you will

24     schedule him for the 5th of February.  That's good.  Very well.

25             We have a few more minutes.  Do we have any news concerning the

Page 1482

 1     archives?  As you are well aware, the Trial Chamber is very concerned

 2     about this matter.  Does the Defence have any new information or are we

 3     still on standby as far as this matter is concerned?

 4             MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are still

 5     waiting.  We are waiting for them to call us from the cabinet of the

 6     general secretary, Mr. Solana, but in spite of the fact that they said

 7     they will inform us, and we will provide you with the information in the

 8     course of tomorrow.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's better to call

10     them -- to contact them yourselves rather than waiting for them to

11     contact you.  Mr. Bourgon is nodding.  Very well.

12             We're going to adjourn.  I'd like to thank everyone present, and

13     we'll meet again tomorrow at 2.15.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.43 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

16                           January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.