Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1483

1 Thursday, 15 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you cal

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 I will now ask the Prosecution for the appearances.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Mrs. Tecla Benjamin and Ekkehard Withopf,

13 together with Mrs. Kimberly Fleming, the case manager.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And could we have

15 the appearances for the Defence. The team hasn't changed, but since it's

16 traditional to have the appearances.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. My name

18 is Edina Residovic; Stephane Bourgon is co-counsel; and Mirna Milanovic

19 is the legal assistant, and we are representing General Hadzihasanovic.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

22 Mr. Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic, our legal

23 assistant, representing Mr. Kupreskic -- Mr. Kubura.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Antonetti, please.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the accused.

Page 1484

1 As far as I have understood, we have two witnesses for today.

2 And if the examination doesn't take too long, we might be able to

3 conclude the hearing of these two witnesses today. And as a result,

4 there would be no hearing tomorrow, which would save resources.

5 So if we fail to conclude the examination of the two witnesses

6 today, we shall continue tomorrow. If we conclude with the hearing of

7 these two witnesses, there will be no hearing tomorrow, and this will

8 allow both parties to continue with their work.

9 If there are no other issues to raise or comments to make, I'm

10 going to ask the usher to bring the new witness in the courtroom, if no

11 protective measures have been requested. We will, therefore, be in open

12 session.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Could you

15 tell me whether you can hear the interpretation.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have been

18 called as a witness for the Prosecution, and the Prosecution will put a

19 series of questions to you and then you will also be cross-examined by

20 the Defence. But first of all, could you please give me your first and

21 last name.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivan Tvrtkovic. I was

23 born on the 5th of September, 1940, in Kakanj.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is your

25 address?

Page 1485

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live in Zagreb, Miramarska 38,

2 Zagreb.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your profession?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mining engineer.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 The usher will show you a text that you should read.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

12 As I have said, you will now be asked some questions by the

13 Prosecution, who are to your right, and you will then be examined by the

14 Defence, who are to your left. If necessary, the Judges who are before

15 you will also ask you some questions.

16 We would like to point out that we are not familiar with your

17 testimony. We don't know what you're going to say. We don't know the

18 context within which you have been called to testify here. So the

19 responses that you provide will inform the Trial Chamber of the facts

20 that you are a witness of, either an eyewitness or you heard things. You

21 will -- we will ask you not to interpret facts that you did not witness

22 directly. You have to testify with regard to facts that took place over

23 ten years ago, but facts that you yourself witnessed. If there are any

24 questions that you do not understand, you can ask the person who has put

25 you the question to rephrase the question. Take your time to respond to

Page 1486

1 the questions that you are asked. And to the extent that it is possible,

2 could you fully answer the questions and not answer them just by saying

3 yes or no.

4 Having mentioned this, the Prosecution may now take the floor to

5 conduct its examination-in-chief.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you Mr. President. Sorry.

9 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

10 Q. Witness, good afternoon. Could you please state for the Trial

11 Chamber the municipality in which you remember born.

12 A. I was born in the municipality of Kakanj in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina.

14 Q. Witness, kindly could you state for the Trial Chamber the ethnic

15 breakdown of this village.

16 A. To the extent that I followed the situation, I think that there

17 were about 45 or 46 -- I think about 45 or 46 per cent of the population

18 was Muslim and about 27 or 28 per cent of the population were Croats; 12

19 or 13 per cent were Serbs; and then there were others, those who declared

20 themselves to be Yugoslavs or members of other ethnic groups.

21 Q. Thank you. For the Trial Chamber, Witness, can you please

22 describe the relationship which existed between the villagers of your

23 village.

24 A. Well, I must say that in the municipality in which I lived we

25 lived in harmony, in fact. It was a mining municipality. It was also

Page 1487

1 somewhat international in character. Mining brings people together,

2 because they work together underground and they simply have to

3 demonstrate solidarity and help each other. As far as the villagers

4 themselves are concerned, there were villages next to each other, both

5 Serb and Muslim and Croat villages. I don't recall there have been

6 conflicts of any kind or judicial proceedings, court proceedings. I

7 don't remember anything of that kind. But in the course of my work, as

8 far as that matter is concerned, there was never even a trace of hatred.

9 No one ever said anything or commented or said that I was doing one thing

10 or another thing for certain reasons. So I can say that that was an

11 issue that was not even considered to be a problem. It wasn't even

12 thought about.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness.

14 Witness, did you at any time serve in the national service with

15 the JNA?

16 A. Yes, I did. In 1963, in Osijek.

17 Q. And upon completion of your national service, could you kindly

18 tell the Chamber what you did.

19 A. When I completed my military service, I went to Zagreb, and I

20 graduated from the university. Before -- when I went to the army, I

21 hadn't yet graduated. I returned. I graduated. And then I immediately

22 went to Kakanj. I had a grant from the Kakanj mine, and I had to pay it

23 back. I had to work to pay back the grant for as long as it took me to

24 study. My parents, my grandparents lived in that place, and it was my

25 duty to give back what I had been given. So on the 22nd of November, I

Page 1488












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Page 1489

1 started working in the Kakanj mine, 1992, and I worked there

2 continually --

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. -- until the end, so to speak.

5 Q. Witness, would you say that you were actively involved in your

6 local community?

7 A. Well, in a certain sense, yes. I was involved in sport. I was

8 involved in gymnastics, et cetera. When I grew a little older, then I

9 became a manager of sports organisations. I was one of the founders of

10 the volleyball club in Kakanj. We were very successful. We were in the

11 second league in the former Yugoslavia, and I was the president of the

12 volleyball team of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was a member of the

13 presidency of the volleyball association of Yugoslavia and the director

14 of the club, a member of when it was founded, and for the last four years

15 I was its director too. So much of my free time was spent in the field

16 of sports.

17 Q. Would you say then, Witness, that you were a well-known person in

18 the municipality of Kakanj?

19 A. Yes, I'd have to say so. It's perhaps a matter of interest, but

20 I was the first and for a long time the first mining engineer who came

21 from the town itself, who was born in the town itself. I'm not -- I

22 don't remember whether there were any other people like me. My roots are

23 there, and everyone knew me because of my involvement in sports and in

24 management and my professional involvement. I think that everyone knew

25 me, but it's difficult to speak about oneself.

Page 1490

1 Q. Thank you. You indicated to the Trial Chamber that you commenced

2 employment in November of 1969. Prior to the commencement of June 1993,

3 did you observe in the environment of your workplace whether any command

4 post of any sort was set up in your area?

5 A. In the Kakanj mine, no, I didn't notice a command post. No such

6 orders had been issued. No such post had been established, no.

7 Q. Would it be correct to say that in fact in and around the mines,

8 that headquarters for the different armies were stationed?

9 A. Well, that process, the process of forming the armies, followed

10 its own course. I couldn't exactly tell you when that took place, but I

11 know that we in the mine, on the basis of requests from the BH Army and

12 the HVO, we would provide them with certain facilities for their use. We

13 would provide certain equipment for their use, some machines. The

14 general director had the authority to allow these two formations to use

15 certain features, equipment, and other items, other facilities that they

16 needed for accommodation and for the purpose of conducting their

17 operations. This had to do with the equipment that the mine disposed of.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I now wish you to cast your mind back

19 particularly to the period commencing June 1993 and tell the Trial

20 Chamber at the commencement of June 1993 how you felt living and working

21 in the municipality of Kakanj.

22 A. The overall situation in Yugoslavia at the time was reflected

23 directly or indirectly in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also in Kakanj. And as

24 coal producers, the Kakanj mine produced about 2 million tons of coal at

25 the time; or, in fact, in its best years, that was its production

Page 1491

1 capacity. But at that time, we were providing a sufficient amount of

2 coal for the Kakanj powerplant, because we knew it was essential for it

3 to be operational. So most of the activity - since I was in -- I was

4 part of the management of the mine - all of our activities had to do with

5 providing the basic material and everything that was necessary for the

6 work of the mine. I think that all the other activities, personal,

7 social, et cetera, were relegated to the background, whereas the

8 management activities were of greatest importance. Through international

9 organisations we asked -- we asked international organisations to assist

10 us, and we were provided with equipment, et cetera. We'd then exchange

11 it, et cetera, et cetera. So we did everything we could so ensure that

12 the work of the mine continued smoothly. We had to make sure that we had

13 enough material and food and so on. So together with our management, the

14 general director at the time - who was a very versatile man and wanted

15 the mine to work continually - we took care of this, and in fact we

16 didn't have the possibility of carrying out any other activities. So

17 these are the activities we were concerned with, and we weren't perhaps

18 even able to have a wider view of what was happening around us. At

19 least, I wasn't in a position to have such a view.

20 Q. Thank you. For the Trial Chamber, Witness, could you assist us

21 as to the commencement of June 1993 -- or from the commencement of June

22 1993, what you thought or how you thought, what kind of relationship

23 existed between the villagers themselves then.

24 A. Well, this is how I would put it, as briefly as possible: There

25 were individual conflicts between Muslims and -- between Muslims

Page 1492

1 themselves and between Croats themselves. I know about conflicts between

2 Croats. There were even dead people. But as far as conflicts between

3 Muslims and Croats are concerned, I'm not aware of any such conflicts. I

4 have to emphasise that I'm not aware of any such conflicts. Everyone

5 tried to avoid insulting others or to harming others. And perhaps this

6 is interesting, but I knew and I heard that elsewhere such things had

7 happened, but in our community I'm not aware of any such incidents. I

8 know about conflicts that concerned Croats themselves. People's

9 interests were at stake, et cetera.

10 Q. Thank you. Kindly please state, Witness, for the Trial Chamber,

11 your duties as they were at the beginning of June 1993.

12 A. I was a member of the management committee for development and

13 investment -- or rather, director of investment concerned with the

14 development of the mine. There were four members, and the general

15 director. I was one of the four members of the management committee.

16 Q. As a consequence of your duties, were you called upon at times to

17 attend meetings?

18 A. Yes, I was. I sometimes attended some meetings.

19 Q. Thank you. On the 12th of June specifically, you reported to

20 duty, as customary.

21 A. Well, in fact, the 12th was a Saturday, and at that time, during

22 that period of time, Saturday and Sunday just didn't mean anything. We

23 worked every day. So yes, one could say that I went to work on that day,

24 just as I had done every day.

25 Q. And whilst at work, did you receive any instructions from anyone?

Page 1493

1 A. I don't know what you mean exactly. I can only say what happened

2 when I arrived at work.

3 Q. Okay. When you arrived at work, did you have any meetings to

4 attend to, on the 12th of June, 1993?

5 A. Yes. We had meetings of the managing board every morning, and at

6 those meetings we would examine the current situation, in terms of

7 production and providing coal to the powerplant. So I knew that it was

8 my duty to turn up at work, and that's how I turned up at work that

9 morning too and went to the office, to the general director's office,

10 which is where we held the meetings.

11 Q. And did you receive any specific instructions to go anywhere on

12 that day?

13 A. Yes. When I arrived there, the general director and the director

14 for legal matters were standing by the table. They seemed fairly

15 downcast. I think I even noticed tears in their eyes. They told me that

16 Stjepan Mijac, Jozo Pavlovic, and myself were being looked for by the BH

17 military police. They said that they wanted to speak to me, the BH Army

18 military police. I said that I had nothing against that. The director

19 said that he would provide a car immediately to have us driven to the

20 command where we would have a discussion. He said it wasn't convenient,

21 it wouldn't be good for the police to come looking for us there again.

22 The director provided the car and a driver. We got into the car,

23 and we went to the command to have a discussion there.

24 Q. At the location where this discussion was to have taken place,

25 would you be able to tell the Trial Chamber if you observed anything that

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Page 1495

1 was unusual in any way on the outside of the compound.

2 A. In the mine itself or, rather, in the compound where we entered

3 and where the command was, was also the compound of the Kakanj mine

4 previously, as I said to begin with. So the mine provided that facility

5 to the BH Army to use for its needs.

6 When we got there, there was a lot of movement on the part of the

7 soldiers. You could hear shooting, because the conflicts had already

8 started and they were ongoing. You could hear explosions coming from

9 afar and different types of weapons being used. So that went on for a

10 day or two. So we had already become accustomed to hearing that kind of

11 noise. The army entered. Soldiers would come and go. Quite simply --

12 how shall I put it? There was a lot of lively activity going on.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, for how long were you engaged in this

14 discussion? What period of time were you engaged in this discussion?

15 A. I stayed there for about 40 minutes perhaps. But there wasn't

16 any discussion. There was no questioning, no interrogation of any kind,

17 no giving of statements. All we did was to sit down and talk to the

18 people who we otherwise knew, and nobody said that we were actually being

19 questioned, nor were we asked for a statement of any kind. So that's how

20 the 40 or 50 minutes went by, one hour at the most.

21 Q. Thank you. Kindly tell the Trial Chamber what happened next at

22 the end of the 40 minutes.

23 A. After 40 minutes, people would be coming in and leaving, because

24 it was a room with several doors. So people would be passing by. They

25 didn't stay there for any length of time. And at one particular point

Page 1496

1 Jasko turned up. I learnt that his name was Jasko later on, but I did

2 know the man otherwise. And the commander, I think his name was Hodzic

3 or Hadzic, and he said that we were to go with Jasko. There was myself

4 and also Pero Pavlovic and Stjepan Mijac, the three of us. And the three

5 of us were told to follow Jasko, to go with him. And that's what we did,

6 of course.

7 Q. And did you go with Jasko?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Witness, did you know Jasko?

10 A. Yes, I did. Jasko was a young man from town. Yes, I did know

11 him.

12 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber - if you know, that is - the

13 ethnic background of Jasko.

14 A. Jasko was a Muslim.

15 Q. Now, you indicated to the Trial Chamber that you followed Jasko.

16 Could you tell us: Followed Jasko to where? Where did you go to?

17 A. We went some 50 or 60 metres away to another building which was

18 right next to the building we were in first, the command or headquarters

19 building, as I call it. And they were the premises of the workers'

20 council of the Kakanj mine. There was a hall there for holding meetings,

21 conferences, and several other rooms, and offices which were used for

22 different purposes in the course of the mine's management, for the

23 management of the mine, in fact.

24 Q. And is it in this room that you were placed?

25 A. We were placed in a room next to the workers' council meeting

Page 1497

1 hall, to the left of it. They are adjoining rooms. And they were used

2 for the military archives of the mine. It contained various documents of

3 a military nature, so that the room was well secured. We had provided

4 good security for it previously, for the needs of the Territorial

5 Defence. That meant you had to have iron bars on the windows. We had a

6 steel door. So it was a very secure office, and it was used by the

7 Kakanj mine.

8 Q. And as you told us before, you were familiar with this room.

9 A. Yes, I was. Of course.

10 Q. Besides yourself and the other three persons who accompanied you

11 with Jasko, could you tell us if you met anyone else at the room.

12 A. Yes. In that same room or office, as I like to call it, there

13 were already some people there. Some were in uniform; others were

14 civilians. There might have been some 30 or 40 people in that room, in

15 fact.

16 Q. And would you be able to assist the Trial Chamber with the ethnic

17 breakdown of the occupants of this room?

18 A. Most of them were soldiers of the HVO who were the detainees, or

19 soldiers who had surrendered during a conflict, but mostly they were

20 Croats.

21 Q. And, Witness, what was the mood of the occupants of this room

22 when you got there?

23 A. Well, you know, there was a conflict going on, and everybody was

24 very depressed. They were all sad, disillusioned, had feelings of

25 consternation. It was not a pleasant sight to see. It was sad to see

Page 1498

1 people feeling like that, pitiful. They looked lost. And of course,

2 that was understandable.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, at this time, how did you feel?

4 A. Well, I felt like the rest did, although at the time I started

5 asking myself why I was there with them. But as I say, it's a very

6 unpleasant feeling because all those people knew me and my colleagues,

7 the fellow managers. There were people there to whom we were the

8 managers and directors. They knew us in quite a different light, in

9 quite a different role, so that we found ourselves there together with

10 all the rest of them, and that's not a pleasant feeling.

11 Q. Thank you. Would it be correct in saying that you felt confined?

12 Did you feel confined in any way?

13 A. Yes, of course.

14 Q. Now, that was the 12th of June, 1993.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us and explain to the Trial Chamber what took

17 place the day after the 12th of June, which would have been the 13th of

18 June, 1993, if anything at all took place.

19 A. In view of the fact that the conflicts were still going on, we

20 could hear the sounds of various weapons being used. Explosions could be

21 heard as well. And all that was very unpleasant. New people were coming

22 in and some others were leaving. There was a lot of coming and going.

23 So that's how the day passed, and that night too.

24 The next day --

25 Q. Could you -- excuse me one moment. Were you able to see outside

Page 1499

1 of the room? Could you see outside?

2 A. No, I could not. The distribution of the rooms were such that we

3 weren't able to see what was going on outside on the one side; and on the

4 other side, which is where the windows were, there was a large

5 embankment, so we weren't able to see out there either. We could just

6 tell by the sounds we heard, and they told us what was going on.

7 Q. And who are you referring to when you say "they told us"?

8 A. Sounds. I don't --

9 Q. Whom are you referring to when you said "they told us what was

10 going on"? To whom are you referring?

11 A. New people came in and information arrived. Many who were there

12 knew what was going on in their own village and in other villages, and

13 they would convey that to us. So the people coming in would bring in

14 information as to what was going on, so that there were lots of different

15 types of information coming in. Because in situations of that kind,

16 people are always very curious. They listen to hear what was going on.

17 So that's what I meant. And we had some information coming in to us that

18 way. But in the room itself -- from the room itself, we couldn't see

19 anything. All we could do was hear the shots and weapons in the

20 background and perhaps some of what was going on in our immediate

21 vicinity. So that's what I meant.

22 Q. Now, that would have concluded June 13th. Can you recall what

23 would have happened on the 14th of June, 1993?

24 A. I think that there was a lull by then. The intensity of the

25 military actions was declining. You couldn't hear weapons being fired

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Page 1501

1 any more. And there was a lull. There were also fewer soldiers in the

2 compound where we were located. And things quietened down generally.

3 Some of the soldiers who were with us in the room and in the

4 compound were called and taken away. Probably they were released later

5 on. So that we can say that as of the 14th the area began to be

6 depopulated; people began to leave. That's what I experienced.

7 Q. But you could -- you couldn't see anything from the room,

8 Witness. But could you hear anything coming in from the outside while

9 you were in that room?

10 A. Nothing special.

11 Q. Okay, thank you.

12 A. I apologise. Perhaps I ought to add the threats.

13 Q. Okay. I'm much obliged.

14 A. There were several soldiers, soldiers passing by. And when they

15 heard who was being detained on the premises, they wanted to take some --

16 to effect some sanctions against us. But Jasko wouldn't allow them to do

17 anything to us. He would rush out and prevented them from taking any

18 reprisals. He didn't allow anything like that to happen. But there were

19 threats, of course. They would say things like, "We ought to kill them

20 all," and things like that. But that was the soldiers' frustration

21 because of their own losses, perhaps. It was some sort of frustration on

22 their part for some things that had happened.

23 Q. Thank you. Then we come to the 15th of June, 1993. Do you

24 recall how the day began on the 15th of June, 1993?

25 A. The day itself began with less intensity, less activity. The

Page 1502

1 camp started to be emptied, and we expected to be released; that is to

2 say, I expected that I would be released. And I was a little astonished

3 that they hadn't let us go the previous day. And we heard on that day

4 already some music in town. And where we were, the premises we were in,

5 about 20 or 30 metres above us was where the road was, so we heard some

6 music coming from a kombi van. And it was louder than it had been

7 previously. I knew the music that was generally played and that sound.

8 It was Islamic music with various things said in Arabic. But you could

9 hear it several times that day, and it was rather strong.

10 Q. Did anything in particular happen around midday of June 15th that

11 you can recall?

12 A. Nothing in particular, except for the fact that the van turned up

13 in front of our prison, or the place that we were incarcerated in. And

14 as I say, you could hear them asking for someone. They were calling out.

15 And then Jasko came into our room and called us, called me. He called to

16 Stjepan too, and I think Komso too, to come and see him in the part that

17 he worked. And we went there and found two soldiers there. I didn't

18 know them, but they asked us to give our names. And Jasko said that --

19 Jasko told him who we were, and he said that we should follow him and go

20 with them. Jasko said that he hadn't received orders to that effect --

21 or rather, that his commander had left him in charge of us. So Jasko

22 said he couldn't do anything without the commander's orders. But they

23 started shouting at him and were very strict, but in the end he gave in.

24 They were insistent. I don't know whether anything was signed at this

25 point, but Jasko said that we could now go with them. And that's what we

Page 1503

1 did; we went with them.

2 Q. So you left the compound in a bus with the two soldiers.

3 A. Yes, a van.

4 Q. Could you tell us: Where did this bus take you?

5 A. The mini-bus took us round town and went to the parking lot in

6 front of the Sretno Motel. We waited there until some people came out

7 from the motel. This was the Motel Sretno. As I say, some other people

8 arrived in a van, and then all of us together were driven off towards

9 Zenica.

10 Q. So could we backtrack a moment. On your way to the Motel Sretno,

11 were you able to see what was going on in the streets?

12 A. No. We weren't allowed to look. We had to keep our heads bent

13 with our arms behind our backs, looking at the floor of the kombi, of the

14 van. So we didn't see anything. One of the soldiers was turned towards

15 us, guarding us, while the other was driving. So he didn't permit us to

16 raise our heads to have a quick glance. So I saw nothing.

17 Q. Thank you. And tell the Trial Chamber what took place when you

18 got to the Motel Sretno.

19 A. The car stopped in the parking lot. Some soldiers came up to us,

20 opened the door, and told us to wait. We weren't allowed to leave the

21 vehicle or to look around. After some time had passed, several other

22 people came whom we knew, and we were a bit surprised. And we said, "How

23 come you're here, and you too?" And they were loaded up into the van

24 together with us. It was a small van, and we were placed in it like

25 sardines in a tin, one up against another. We weren't allowed to talk

Page 1504

1 amongst others; we weren't allowed to do anything. We had to keep our

2 heads bent, our hands behind our backs. And at one point they closed the

3 doors to the van in the same way, while one of the soldiers was watching

4 us to see that we didn't look around and the other drove us towards

5 Zenica. We knew the road very well. We'd been there thousands of times,

6 so we knew where we were going; we knew what route it was.

7 Q. Witness, would you then be able to assist the Trial Chamber as to

8 who took you to the Zenica building? Do you have any idea?

9 A. I didn't know at the time, no. And I didn't know the people, who

10 they were. They weren't known to me.

11 Q. But at the time, how did they look to you? How were they

12 dressed? How did they look to you?

13 A. They were wearing military uniforms. All of them were in

14 camouflage uniforms. I didn't notice any rank insignia or anything like

15 that. You know, in times like that, you don't pay attention, perhaps, to

16 all those details. But I don't think they had any insignia or the like.

17 Q. Quite so.

18 Now, you were taken to Zenica. Could you tell us where in Zenica

19 were you taken.

20 A. They took us to what was known as the Music School in Zenica. We

21 arrived in front of the building, got out the same way we had done so

22 before, with our hands behind our backs, our heads bent, looking down at

23 the ground, one by one; went through the entrance to the left, the

24 staircase on the left, and we were all taken into a room there, where we

25 found some other citizens there whom we knew.

Page 1505

1 Q. And do you know into whose care you were placed at the Music

2 School?

3 A. Not at that time, no. There wasn't any handing over and taking

4 over of us. Quite simply the ones who took us there behaved as if it all

5 belonged to them. They didn't act as if they were handing us over to

6 somebody, to put us in somebody's charge.

7 Q. So you believed there was no one particular person in charge;

8 there wasn't any one particular person.

9 A. Well, at that moment, I wasn't able to notice anything like that,

10 I was so taken aback.

11 Q. Can you state for the Trial Chamber the conditions of the room in

12 which you were placed in at the Zenica Music School. Can you describe it

13 and state the conditions for us, please.

14 A. Well, ten years have passed since then, but I'll tell you to the

15 best of my recollection. It was a room that was about 5 to 6 metres

16 wide, perhaps some 15 metres long. It was a room in the basement, in the

17 cellar. And there were small windows up by the ceiling, looking out onto

18 the street. So it was a cellar, underground, about 2 metres underground.

19 There was just this half metre that was above the surface of the road

20 where there were these little windows. There was some sort of plastic

21 flooring, an oval roof, and I think that -- a vaulted roof. And I think

22 that the Music School used it for some of its -- as a facility for its

23 own purposes, or perhaps they stored something there. Something along

24 those lines.

25 Q. Would you be able to assist us further, Witness, with the

Page 1506

1 physical condition of the room? How were you treated -- you know, what

2 was the physical -- were there any amenities? Could you help us?

3 A. In the room, there were some benches or -- well, yes, benches --

4 which were used by the school, by the pupils. They would put their

5 musical notes or books on them. But you could raise them or lower them.

6 They were benches of about 2 metres long and might have been about 50

7 centimetres wide, and they had a lid. And there were also some wooden

8 pallets which were used to transport bricks. There were four of those.

9 And there were several chairs too. But they weren't in working order.

10 There was also a bed that you couldn't lie on, things like that,

11 discarded chairs, several blankets. That's all.

12 Q. Toilet facilities? Could you assist us with that?

13 A. No, there weren't any toilet facilities at all.

14 Q. Could you tell us what you used as a toilet?

15 A. We had a plastic pot or container, a 5- or 6-litre container,

16 which we used as a toilet. When it was full, we would ask the guard to

17 let us empty it. They would then allow one of us to go up to the floor

18 and empty it. And that's how we proceeded during our entire stay on the

19 premises.

20 Q. Approximately how many people would be in the room at any one

21 given time? Approximately how many people?

22 A. At the beginning, there were between 18 and 20 of us. Then some

23 people left; others arrived. And one could say that on average there

24 were between 15 and 18 of us at all times.

25 Q. And would you be able to assist us with the ethnic breakdown of

Page 1507

1 the occupants of the room at that time?

2 A. They were mostly Croats. There was a Serb who was there all the

3 time. At the beginning there were two Serbs as well, but they left.

4 They were released.

5 Q. What would a normal day be like at the Zenica Music School for

6 you at that time?

7 A. Since there was no electricity anywhere, neither in the city nor

8 in that building, we had to depend on daylight and on the little light

9 that would reach the basement. We would get up in the morning. We would

10 go to the toilet, et cetera, and we would change. There were always a

11 couple of people who were on duty. They would take out -- they would

12 take the excrement up to the floor. They asked the guards to give us a

13 cloth and water, because sometimes the feces would be spilt in the room,

14 and then we had to clean it up, because we were afraid of infections, of

15 contagious diseases et cetera. We carried out all these activities.

16 Then we would bring water. We had two plastic bottles of a litre

17 and a half or two litres. So there were always two persons who were

18 always responsible for dealing with these matters. The others would

19 remain sitting. They'd be silent. They'd reflect, et cetera. But there

20 were two persons who were responsible for work in all the other premises

21 above us. We would clean up, tidy up, et cetera. And it was our duty,

22 after we had eaten, to clean up, do the washing up, et cetera.

23 Q. Now, during the nights, could you describe for us what the nights

24 were like.

25 A. It was completely dark --

Page 1508

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to address the

2 Prosecution, to inform them that they have taken over an hour and a half

3 for the examination-in-chief, whereas according to the document, you had

4 planned on examining the witness for an hour. Please try to respect the

5 schedule that has been drawn up. Please continue.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged, Mr. President. And I'll soon

7 be finished. Thank you.

8 Q. Whilst at the Zenica Music School, could you indicate to the

9 Tribunal how you were treated.

10 A. Well, it's difficult for me to answer that question in specific

11 terms. As I have already said, it was very uncomfortable. Living there

12 was very uncomfortable. The occasional interrogations presented another

13 kind of difficulty. Our fate wasn't secure, et cetera, et cetera.

14 Q. Witness, you in particular, could you tell the Tribunal if you

15 were ever interrogated at the Zenica Music School and what transpired.

16 A. Yes, I was. After a few days, everyone in fact went to be

17 questioned. So after a few days had passed, I was also called by the

18 manager, by the -- by the warden of the prison. And he took me to be

19 interrogated. I entered the office -- If I may talk about this -- This

20 is how things unfolded.

21 Q. Yes. Could you briefly tell us exactly how it unfolded, please.

22 A. I entered the office, which was on the second floor, I think.

23 There were two tables placed together, and on one side there was a

24 soldier in uniform and there was another soldier on the other side. They

25 had beards, slightly longish hair. They turned the chair around, so that

Page 1509

1 the back of the chair was facing me. So my back didn't have any support,

2 so to speak. And that's when they started asking me questions.

3 Q. Okay. And did anything happen during the interrogation?

4 A. Yes. When they weren't happy with my answers about some sort of

5 command, and I didn't understand what sort of a command this was, the

6 soldiers who were behind me started kicking me or hitting me with parts

7 of their weapons. I don't know exactly, but I almost lost consciousness.

8 I was out of breath, but they were asking me to answer questions, yet I

9 wasn't capable of answering any questions. I had almost lost

10 consciousness.

11 Q. For how long would you say this beating lasted?

12 A. Well, perhaps for about ten minutes.

13 Q. Okay. And then were you taken back to your cell?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Tell the Tribunal the length of period that you stayed at

16 the Zenica Music School. For how long did you stay there?

17 A. Three months, up until the 29th of September --

18 Q. And --

19 A. -- when we were transferred.

20 Q. Could you tell us where you were transferred to.

21 A. We were transferred to what they used to call the correctional

22 facility in Zenica. It used to be a prison in Zenica.

23 Q. And you got to Zenica at the prison, the old prison? For how

24 long did you stay there?

25 A. Until the 23rd of November, which is when I was exchanged. And

Page 1510

1 as a result of this exchange, I was sent to Zepce.

2 Q. From Zepce, did you go back to Kakanj?

3 A. No, I didn't. There was nowhere for me to go back to. Someone

4 had moved into my flat. Someone had moved into my house. Even if I had

5 wanted to, there was nowhere for me to go, to go back to. And since this

6 wasn't possible, I just waited to see what my fate would be.

7 Q. And where did you go after that?

8 A. On the 10th of October, 1994, a convoy from Zepce was organised,

9 which passed through the territory in which the Serbs had a dominant

10 presence. We got as far as Livno. I got off in Livno. We crossed over

11 into Capljina. I greeted my friends there. And then I went to Rijeka to

12 see my brother on the following day, and then I went to see my other

13 brother in Zagreb.

14 Q. Did you -- do you now live in Bosnia?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...?

17 A. I live in Zagreb.

18 Q. And could you tell us if you will return to Bosnia?

19 A. Since I have already organised my life in Zagreb, it is not my

20 intention to return there and live there on a permanent basis.

21 Q. Witness, thank you. And I have just one more question for you,

22 which eluded me: At the Zenica Music School, you indicated to the

23 Tribunal that people were coming and going and that people were taken for

24 questioning and people were coming and going. Could you tell us if at

25 any time during your stay at the Music School, if you saw people who were

Page 1511

1 taken upstairs coming -- who didn't leave but came back down to the room,

2 and could you tell us, you know, what you saw.

3 A. People would come and go. They'd be beaten. They had bruises.

4 They couldn't walk. They were in a terrible state.

5 Q. And in particular, would you be able to tell us the names of

6 these people and what you know about these people, what eventually

7 happened to any one of these, that you may have seen?

8 A. All those who went to be questioned, almost all of them were

9 given a beaten -- beating. Some were beaten more; some a little less.

10 Markic, Andrijevic, and Popovic in particular were badly beaten, as well

11 as Cicak. I could say that my beating wasn't as bad as theirs.

12 Q. Witness, I'd like to thank you for your assistance in coming here

13 today.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is the

15 evidence in chief. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the

17 Prosecution.

18 I just have two minor questions for if witness -- the witness

19 before to the Defence to see if they want to cross-examine the witness.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said during the

22 examination-in-chief that you had been beaten. Were you beaten almost

23 every day, or was it occasionally, at intervals?

24 A. I was beaten on two occasions: During an interrogation, and on

25 one other occasion, when we were taken away in the van in an unknown

Page 1512

1 direction. We were placed in a room where -- and we were blindfolded so

2 we didn't know where we were. Later we discovered that that was the

3 Bilmiste educational centre. And when we were returning, I was badly

4 beaten. I am speaking about what happened to myself.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you were

6 transferred to the KP Dom. Were you beaten there?

7 A. No. I wasn't beaten, and nor was anyone else.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were questioned, why

9 were you questioned? What was the objective of the questioning? What

10 did they want to find out?

11 A. My interrogators told me that they knew quite a lot about my

12 life; that's one thing. And to be specific, they told me -- or rather,

13 they requested that I admit that I'd been working to have the powerplant

14 and the mine made part of the -- made part of Herceg-Bosna. That was

15 their main accusation. There was a minor accusation that had to do with

16 explosives. Since we are a mining company, I told them that I wasn't

17 responsible for explosives in the mine. I told them that other people

18 were responsible for explosives there, because I was involved in

19 investment and development and not in concrete, logistical tasks. And

20 since they beat me, I wasn't in a position to provide them with sensible

21 answers.

22 The prison warden later said that I had to write down my answers.

23 They provided me with a pen and paper and even a candle, and I answered

24 that question and the others. There were three questions: There was one

25 that concerned Herceg-Bosna; another that concerned explosives; and there

Page 1513

1 was another, a third question, that wasn't that important. I wrote my

2 answers down and handed it over to the prison warden.

3 Later I wasn't summoned again or questioned with regard to that

4 matter.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My very last question: When

6 you were in the Music School, were you guarded by civilians or members of

7 the military?

8 A. Members of the military.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the soldiers who were

10 present, did you identify them? Did you know the units that they

11 belonged to, or were you not able to identify them?

12 A. It was a military police station, and soldiers would come and go

13 all the time. So it was very rare for a soldier to remain there for more

14 than several days. The soldiers kept changing, kept rotating, so I

15 assumed that this was the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

16 because they had regular ritual rites -- religious rites which were

17 performed there. They had a summons to pray every day and they would go

18 up to the top because I know there was an area where they would pray

19 there. I know that because I went to clean the place when they were

20 performing these religious rites. It was silent. There was silence

21 there. And that's how I knew that it belonged to that unit, because I

22 knew that in the army units no such religious rites were performed; at

23 least, not as far as I am aware.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have another ten

25 minutes before the break. Does the Defence want to start with the

Page 1514

1 cross-examination and continue after the break?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it would

3 be appropriate to start with our cross-examination.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Tvrtkovic. My name is Edina

6 Residovic, and I'm representing General Enver Hadzihasanovic. I have a

7 number of questions for you that relate to your testimony before this

8 Trial Chamber.

9 I'd like to ask you whether it is true that in 2002 you gave a

10 statement to investigators from The Hague Tribunal about these events.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. With regard to your personal position in Kakanj, you have

13 provided the Trial Chamber some general indications about the overall

14 situation. I think it is important to understand what you have been

15 testifying about. So would this -- in this regard, I would like to ask

16 you a number of questions. Have I understood you correctly: You were

17 born in Kakanj and up until June 1993 you lived in Kakanj?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Before -- just before the war, you didn't join a single national

20 party that came to power; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Given your professional and social engagements, you had a fairly

23 high social position in the mine and in the municipality as a whole; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Well, I assume so.

Page 1515

1 Q. But although the war broke out, you weren't mobilised into any

2 military structure present in the municipality at the time; is that

3 correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. In fact, in accordance with the law, you were employed and you

6 were a member of the war staff of the mine by virtue of your position; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. The duties you had to perform in the mine didn't leave you much

10 time to follow all the events in your community and beyond; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. But given that the media relayed the events that were taking

14 place in Bosnia and Herzegovina, you heard that in the wider area of

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993 an armed conflict between the BH Army and

16 the HVO had broken out; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. However, it seemed to you, on account of the peaceful situation

19 in Kakanj, that such a conflict would not break out in your community; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. You said in the course of your testimony - and I would like you

23 to confirm this - that it was clear to you that the mine, its

24 productivity, and the work of the plant, of the powerplant in Kakanj, was

25 of extreme importance for the entire state and for the military

Page 1516

1 structures; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Would it be correct to say that in the spring of 1993 a member of

4 the BH Presidency, Ejup Ganic, came to Kakanj?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All the representatives of political structures in the

7 municipality and of commercial organisations and of the military

8 structures of the BH Army and the HVO were called to the meeting; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. You attended that meeting and you know that all those who

12 attended it, apart from the representatives of the HVO, were there, which

13 was a bit strange for you.

14 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what I stated.

15 Q. You knew that the HVO, according to the law, was part of the

16 Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it didn't recognise the

17 Presidency command but it obeyed orders that were issued to it from its

18 headquarters in Grude; is that correct?

19 A. Well, what I can say is that there were certain disagreements.

20 But as to the nature and the form of these disagreements, I couldn't say

21 what they were.

22 Q. Although you did not follow the situation carefully, the

23 situation in the general area, you nevertheless knew that at the

24 beginning of June in the surrounding villages of the municipality of

25 Kakanj a conflict or clashes broke out between the army and the HVO; is

Page 1517

1 that right?

2 A. Well, I'm not sure about a lot of conflicts, but I know about a

3 conflict in the village of Lucici, which is -- which is when a

4 large-scale conflict broke out in the municipality of Kakanj.

5 Q. Tell me whether the village of Poljani is in the municipality of

6 Kakanj?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. Did you hear that at the beginning of June there was a massacre

9 against the inhabitants, the Bosniak inhabitants of that village, and

10 those bodies were partially burnt? The police and the Ministry of the

11 Interior from Kakanj carried out the on-site investigation. Did you hear

12 anything about this incident? If not --

13 A. I'm not claiming that it did not happen, but I cannot remember

14 it.

15 Q. Thank you. Only tell us what you know about.

16 At the beginning of 1993, given your duties, you went on official

17 trips through Western Herzegovina as well and with a colleague who was a

18 HVO member. You went on these trips and you had the opportunity of

19 meeting Mate Boban on one such occasion; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. At the time, Mate Boban was the President of the Croatian

22 Community of Herceg-Bosna.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will interrupt the Defence

24 for a moment.

25 Yes, Mr. Withopf.

Page 1518

1 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, the Prosecution opposes this line of

2 questioning. It goes far beyond the scope of the examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. With regard to the scope

4 of the cross-examination, you know that we have been provided with a

5 motion in order to specify what the scope was. We said that it was

6 necessary to adhere to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, Rule 90. You

7 must concentrate on the subjects addressed by the Prosecution and you

8 must concentrate on the credibility of the witness. So it's necessary to

9 place the responses within the context. We have noticed that the witness

10 said that he wasn't aware of the context, so the impression we have is

11 that the questions you are asking are not useful because the witness said

12 that he didn't know the answer.

13 So we are going to break because of technical reasons. That will

14 allow us to think about what has just been said during the break. We

15 will resume with the cross-examination of the witness at ten past 4.00.

16 And I'd like to ask the Prosecution to respect the timing for the second

17 witness, to the extent that this is possible. It would be good to finish

18 with both witnesses by 7.00.

19 We will adjourn now and after the break, at 4.10, the Defence can

20 continue with its cross-examination.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence may continue.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I'd

25 like to say that the question to which the Prosecution first objected

Page 1519

1 might have been my question when I asked him whether he knew about a

2 conflict in a village.

3 Now, as we have the witness statement in our possession, and we

4 know the things that he talked about there, we based our questions on

5 that statement in order to confirm that that was so. So that was the

6 groundwork for our question. He confirmed the first fact but said didn't

7 know about the other one.

8 Now, if there was an objection to my second question, the second

9 question related to his meeting or, rather, his presence at a meeting

10 where he got to know Mate Boban. That is something that the witness

11 confirmed, and it is also a question he mentioned earlier on. So this is

12 to test the credibility of the witness as to that fact.

13 Mr. President, I have two or three more questions left to ask the

14 witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Withopf, before I

16 give you the floor, the Defence would like to say that they are

17 cross-examining the witness on the basis of what he said in his written

18 statement. So the first question was a question relating to that

19 statement. You objected. The Prosecution objected. So we wanted to

20 compare this with the written document.

21 And the second question had to do with a meeting at which the

22 witness participated, in view of his local functions and positions, et

23 cetera. And I think that the question could be asked of the witness

24 quite rightly, because he was a prominent individual in Kakanj. As an

25 intellectual, as a mining engineer, and otherwise. So he could have

Page 1520

1 taken part in administrative meetings. And therefore, it would be normal

2 for us to be able to ask him those questions.

3 I should also like to add that when I asked him, I asked him why

4 he was being interrogated, what they wanted to find out. And he told me

5 what the purpose of the interrogations were. So that was a link.

6 Now, would you nonetheless like to take the floor at this point,

7 Mr. Withopf?

8 MR. WITHOPF: Very briefly, Mr. President, Your Honours. I think

9 there are two issues involved. The first one is the issue as to whether

10 the prior statement actually determines the scope of the

11 cross-examination. Rule 90(H)(i) only refers to the evidence in chief

12 and not to the previous witness statement.

13 And the second issue is the relevance of the questions as put by

14 the Defence to the witness. At this point in time, I can't see the

15 relevance of such questions.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not say that

17 the previous statement was a framework for the cross-examination. The

18 prior statement is something that the Defence can use to test the

19 credibility of the witness. And in case the witness deviates

20 considerably from what he said, then we can refer to the prior statement.

21 I think that the witness gave me very precise and specific answers to the

22 questions I asked him, and I thank him for that.

23 May I proceed?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1521

1 Q. We won't go back to that question, because you said you happened

2 to be present at the meeting by chance -- not meeting -- or rather, the

3 place where you met Mr. Mate Boban. That's all I asked you. And you

4 asserted that.

5 A. I confirmed that. But may I just add something and clarify this

6 point? The people I travelled with were having a meeting. They had the

7 meeting. And all they did was to ask me whether I wanted to meet

8 Mr. Boban. And I said that yes, I did, because I'm always a curious man

9 and I was interested in meeting him, because at the time he was somebody

10 who was a prominent political figure. So I had this opportunity, and we

11 just talked to him. And if you would like me to say what we talked

12 about, I can do that.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tvrtkovic. I just asked you that question in

14 order to bring up my next question: Is it true and correct that during

15 the time you were interrogated at the Music School you were asked about

16 that meeting, they asked you about it? Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tvrtkovic. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me just turn to the

20 Defence.

21 So you asked him about -- a question about Mr. Boban. The

22 Chamber does not know who Mr. Boban is. So perhaps you could have

23 incorporated into your question, "Did you meet Mr. Boban, who was so and

24 so?" because just by simply says "Mr. Boban" doesn't tell me anything.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1522

1 Q. Mr. Tvrtkovic, shall we assist the Trial Chamber. At the time,

2 Mr. Mate Boban, who is deceased now, was at the time president of the

3 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and president of the HVO. Is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at that time, the army was in conflict with the HVO; is that

7 right? During the time you were at the Music School, I mean.

8 A. No, not in Kakanj. It is difficult for me to say whether it was

9 in conflict elsewhere.

10 Q. Mostar, Central Bosnia. Never mind. But you know the conflicts

11 ended in February 1994 with the Washington Agreement; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we only have

14 three or four questions and won't take up much time.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tvrtkovic, during today's testimony, you

17 said that you left the Music School on the 29th of September, 1993; is

18 that right?

19 A. The 20th of September.

20 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigators, you said that you

21 left the Music School on the 20th of August. And I have a confirmation

22 here from the Red Cross.

23 A. I do apologise.

24 Q. So could it have been the 20th of August? You allow for that

25 possibility?

Page 1523

1 A. Yes, I do. Many years have gone by since then. I know it was

2 the 20th, but ...

3 Q. Now, the individual who interrogated you or questioned you at the

4 Music School, his name was Jasmin Ismic, is it? Is that right?

5 A. I heard the name many, many years later; however, at that time, I

6 did not know what that person's name was, nor did I know anything about

7 the gentleman.

8 Q. The third question would be as follows: While you were in Kakanj

9 in the mine, the mine premises, you were able to receive visits.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that correct?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm not receiving the

14 interpretation, but I can hear you without the headsets.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'll repeat my question.

17 During the time you spent in Kakanj at the mine's premises,

18 before you went to the Music School, your nearest and dearest, your

19 friends were able to visit you, and your relatives too.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any redirect by the

23 Prosecution?

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 1524

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, no re-examine.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Witness, at the request of the Prosecution, you came here and

4 answered questions put to you by the Prosecution and by the Defence. The

5 Chamber would like to thank you for giving testimony and we wish you bon

6 voyage back to your own country.

7 I'll now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before introducing the second

11 witness, I would like to ask the registrar - and this is only going to

12 take a few moments - if we could go into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)


Page 1525

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And with the break and the

11 cross-examination, I think we can be finished by 7.00 p.m. Of course, if

12 the questions are pertinent ones, well-focussed on the facts.

13 The usher is looking for the witness. Yes, the witness is coming

14 into the courtroom.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, while the witness is taking his seat,

16 first let me say good afternoon to Your Honour, and to my colleagues. In

17 light of what the President has just said, the Prosecution anticipates

18 that this witness will take approximately one hour on direct examination,

19 rather than the 1.5 hours indicated, so I don't anticipate any problems

20 meeting the schedule as set forth by Your Honour.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Witness, can you hear the interpretation?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you please give us your

Page 1526

1 first and last name.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ranko Popovic.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your date of birth?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 25th of December, 1944.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where? Which locality?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Donji Vijacani, the

7 Prnjavor municipality.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your present job?

9 Are you employed?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not employed, but I am a

11 telecommunications engineer by profession.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. And

13 where is your place of residence?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I live in Prnjavor, and that is my

15 native town.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are now going

17 to read the text of the solemn declaration. Please go ahead.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter] Pz

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

23 Sir, you're now going to be answering questions asked by the

24 Prosecution, and they are sitting to your right. Afterwards, you will be

25 answering questions put to you by the Defence, and they are to your left.

Page 1527

1 You have the Judges in front of you, and they, too, will be asking you

2 questions.

3 You have been called here to testify about the facts that you

4 personally saw, those that you were an eyewitness to, or events that took

5 place and things you heard about and experienced. It would be helpful if

6 you would give longer answers and not just yes or no answers, so complete

7 answers.

8 Let me tell you that the Judges sitting in front of you know

9 nothing about what you're going to be asked about, so the

10 examination-in-chief will help us arrive at the truth, and therefore

11 you're going to be asked specific questions about the things you saw. If

12 there is something that is not quite clear to you, please ask to hear the

13 question again.

14 Having said that, I'm now going to give the floor to the

15 representatives of the Prosecution, without further ado, for the

16 examination-in-chief.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

19 Q. Witness, can you please tell us where you were living in 1992.

20 A. I was living and working in Kakanj at the time.

21 Q. When did you move to Kakanj? What year?

22 A. I moved to Kakanj from Zenica in 1969. It was August, I believe.

23 I worked there at the steelworks of Zenica.

24 Q. Can you tell us in 1992 what the approximate population of Kakanj

25 was.

Page 1528

1 A. You mean the ethnic composition?

2 Q. No, the overall population of the city of Kakanj in 1992,

3 roughly, if you know.

4 A. Very well. I'd rather start with the ethnic composition. Eight

5 to nine per cent were Serbs; about 18 per cent were Croats; and the rest

6 I can't -- the Bosniaks, or Muslims, might have made up 56 per cent. I

7 can't be quite sure. But most of them were workers, part of the working

8 class, working in the large enterprises in Kakanj or the smaller ones.

9 Q. Do you know approximately how many people lived in the city of

10 Kakanj in 1992?

11 A. Well, those are facts and figures and statistics. I have heard

12 of them, but Kakanj had between 12 and 15 thousand inhabitants. And the

13 Kakanj municipality numbered about 50 or 53 thousand inhabitants. But

14 don't hold it to me exactly. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Witness, what is your ethnic background?

16 A. I'm a Serb. I'm a Serb. That's my ethnicity.

17 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when a state of war or armed

18 conflict broke out in the area around Kakanj?

19 A. Yes. Yes, there did.

20 Q. When did that happen?

21 A. That happened in 1993, I believe. Yes, 1993. Sometime in June.

22 So that means in June. But not in the town itself; I know that for a

23 fact. It was the area outside the town, around the town. Not in town.

24 Q. In June of 1993, Witness, were you employed? And if so, where

25 were you employed?

Page 1529

1 A. Yes. I was employed in the thermoelectric powerplant of Kakanj.

2 And as there wasn't much work at the time, we were placed at the

3 company's disposal. You were actually at home; you would receive a

4 reduced salary. And when the need arose and when there was work to do,

5 they would call you and you would go to work.

6 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when the war or armed conflict

7 actually broke out in the town of Kakanj?

8 A. No. Not in town, no. There wasn't a conflict in the town. At

9 least -- well, I was there, so I would know. No, it didn't happen. Not

10 in the town itself.

11 Q. Did there come a time, Witness, when there were any offences

12 directed at the town of Kakanj?

13 A. That was then, that day, when the armed conflict started. But as

14 I say, it wasn't on a large scale. It wasn't a large offensive with any

15 artillery, mortars, and so on. I can't be quite specific, of course,

16 because you weren't able to go outside. For security reasons, there was

17 a general alarm that was sounded. But perhaps one or two grenades

18 exploded. Where they came from, I don't know. You could hear them, but

19 you couldn't see anything.

20 Q. Witness, you've made reference to "that day, when the armed

21 conflict started." Do you have a recollection of the specific day upon

22 which the armed conflict started?

23 A. I think I do, but I'm not quite sure. I think it was on the 9th

24 of June. But don't hold me to that.

25 Q. And in which year was that, Witness?

Page 1530

1 A. 1993.

2 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what you were doing and

3 where you were on the day the armed conflict started in Kakanj.

4 A. Yes. As the alarm was sounded, you weren't allowed to leave your

5 house. And I was at home when the alarm went off. That would be it. So

6 not -- the whole day and the whole evening you weren't allowed to leave

7 your home -- we weren't allowed to leave our homes for our safety and

8 security. Because there was always the danger of a stray bullet or stray

9 shell hitting you.

10 Q. What type of residence did you live in in June 1993 when the

11 armed conflict started?

12 A. I was in a flat, a three-room flat in the centre of Kakanj.

13 Q. On what floor was your flat located in this building?

14 A. On the first floor.

15 Q. Were you able to see what was occurring in the town of Kakanj

16 from your first-floor flat?

17 A. No. No, you couldn't see that, because the configuration of the

18 terrain in the town itself and in the surrounding parts is that Kakanj

19 lies in a valley, so you can only see 1 or 2 hundred metres in front of

20 you or to the left or right. It's in a river valley. All you can do is

21 hear what's going on. That's all.

22 Q. What could you hear from your first-floor flat as the conflict

23 began in Kakanj?

24 A. You could hear infantry fire. And whether they were mortars or

25 the artillery or whatever, but you could hear that sort of thing,

Page 1531

1 although I'm not an expert. All I know is that some of that was going on

2 but I don't think nothing hit the town of Kakanj itself. Perhaps just

3 one or two shells. But I didn't see that happen. As I say, you weren't

4 allowed to leave your house. You could only hear what was going on.

5 Q. Once the armed conflict in Kakanj began, how much longer did you

6 remain in your apartment?

7 A. You mean how many days?

8 Q. Once the -- yes. How many days after the armed conflict began

9 did you remain living in your apartment?

10 A. I lived there until the 18th of June of that same year, which

11 means 1993.

12 Q. Between the beginning of the armed conflict on or about the 9th

13 of June, 1993, until the 18th of June, 1993, did you on any occasion

14 leave your apartment for any reason?

15 A. Yes, I did. Because you had to go and buy food and the basic

16 essentials. No other reason.

17 Q. On those occasions, in that time period when you left your

18 apartment, did you see any soldiers on the streets of Kakanj?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What were these soldiers wearing?

21 A. As far as I was able to see, for the amount of time they were on

22 the road they were wearing the normal camouflage uniform, and all of them

23 had infantry weapons. You could see that. Of course, you weren't able

24 to see very much. Whenever there was a crowd, you didn't dilly-dally.

25 You did what you had to do and went back home.

Page 1532

1 Q. Do you know which army or armed forces the soldiers that you saw

2 on the streets in Kakanj belonged to?

3 A. Yes. Well, what can I say? I know they were soldiers belonging

4 to the BH Army. I do know that.

5 Q. How do you know that?

6 A. Well, I saw them. I saw them on the road.

7 Q. Did you see any indications on their uniforms that led you to

8 believe that they were members of the BH Army?

9 A. Well, I can't say, because ... Well, I didn't spend much time in

10 the streets, so I really can't say.

11 Q. You mentioned the 18th of June, 1993, Witness. Can you tell the

12 Trial Chamber what happened on that day.

13 A. On that day, at around 14.10 hours, somebody rang my doorbell,

14 and I thought that it was a friend whom I was expecting, so I opened the

15 door. But to my astonishment, I saw two armed soldiers standing there,

16 and they came inside and asked me if they -- they said they wanted to

17 take a look around the apartment. At first I was a little taken aback,

18 confused. I didn't know what was going on. But they asked me to show

19 them my radio station. I said I didn't have one, that I had handed it

20 over in 1992 to the SUP of Kakanj and that I have a receipt to prove it.

21 And that's what happened. There was a general announcement from

22 the local radio station in Kakanj that all radio hams - and I was a radio

23 ham myself - should turn over, hand in their radio stations. And I did

24 so; so did a colleague of mine, Franjo, who lived in the same building.

25 He also had a radio station. And another man called Mile. I've

Page 1533

1 forgotten his surname. So they all took their radio stations and took

2 them to the SUP. We all did that. We packed them up nicely, because

3 they told us to pack them up. And they gave us receipts.

4 So they asked to see the receipt. And I said the receipt's in my

5 car. So we went downstairs to my car, and I gave them the receipt. But

6 they weren't actually interested in the receipt - I don't know why - what

7 they wanted was the my car keys and the keys to the garage. And they

8 ordered me to enter the van. There were two soldiers. They ordered me

9 into the van, and then they drove me off with them to the motel. It's a

10 motel at the crossroads on the Zenica-Sarajevo main road. So that's

11 where the motel was.

12 Q. Witness, let me ask you a couple of follow-on questions. You've

13 told us about two soldiers. What were these soldiers wearing?

14 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. They had infantry

15 weapons. I don't know what the type of weapons they -- what type of

16 weapons they were. They were from the units of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

17 as it was called, and it was their police, actually. And what was I

18 going to say? Ah, yes, in Kakanj everyone referred to them as MOS, as

19 the MOS men. So the abbreviation was used. They were soldiers from the

20 MOS.

21 Q. Witness, how do you know that these soldiers were from the

22 7th Muslim Brigade or the MOS?

23 A. Well, let's say that was a public secret. Everyone knew about

24 the MOS taking prisoners away.

25 Q. Once you -- you told us that you were ordered into a van. Can

Page 1534

1 you describe what the van looked like or what type of van it was.

2 A. It was a green van. I think it had an irregular pattern on it, a

3 sort of camouflage pattern. It was a standard van. I think it was a TAM

4 van with about eight seats.

5 Q. Witness, at the time these two soldiers took you or put you into

6 this van, were you serving as a member of any armed force?

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 Q. So you weren't serving as a member of the HVO or the VRS or any

9 other type of military organisation.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, you told us that they took you to a motel at the crossroads

12 on the Zenica-Sarajevo main road. Do you know the name of that motel?

13 A. The name of the motel was Motel Sretno.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask at this point that the

15 witness be shown the electronic copy of Prosecution Exhibit 10.

16 A. Yes. That's the motel. I think this is a recent photograph,

17 because in the right-hand corner a large circular sign is missing with

18 the inscription "Motel Sretno." It's probably renovated. And it didn't

19 say "hotel"; it said "motel." There was a large circular sign on the

20 right side of the facade.

21 Q. Witness, other than the changes that you've just told us about,

22 does the building that's depicted in Prosecution Exhibit 10, that should

23 be on the screen in front of you, does that resemble the building, Motel

24 Sretno, as it was in June 1993?

25 A. Yes, that's it.

Page 1535

1 Q. Approximately how far from your apartment in Kakanj was the Motel

2 Sretno?

3 A. A kilometre and a half to 2 kilometres at the most.

4 Q. Witness, prior to your arrival at the Motel Sretno on June 18th,

5 1993, did you have any knowledge as to what that motel was being used

6 for?

7 A. Yes. There were rumours in Kakanj, according to which the motel

8 was being used as a kind of prison. That's what people were saying.

9 Q. Do you recall approximately what time of day you arrived at the

10 hotel on 18 June 1993?

11 A. Yes. I was arrested on the 14th of October, so it could have

12 been at half past 2.00 or 3.00 on that day.

13 Q. Witness, the -- at least, the English translation indicated that

14 you were arrested on the 14th of October. Can you tell us again the date

15 that you were arrested and taken from your flat to the Motel Sretno.

16 A. I don't know where that date has appeared from, but it was on the

17 18th of June, 1993. I will remember that for as long as I live.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. And to the best of your recollection, you

19 arrived there sometime between half past 2.00 and 3.00 on 18 June 1993;

20 is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened upon your arrival at

23 the Motel Sretno, starting with when the van, the kombi, arrived at the

24 motel.

25 A. It's difficult for me to go over that again now, but I'll have

Page 1536

1 to.

2 They took me out of the van. They took me to some basement rooms

3 in the motel. When the motel was being used, there were some sort of

4 cubicles there, 2 by 2 metres, and there was a group of soldiers there.

5 As soon as I got there, they started beating me immediately with

6 everything they could. I tried to avoid the blows and protect my back by

7 approaching the wall, getting closer up to the wall, and I'd use my hands

8 to shield my face, to the extent that this is possible. It's difficult

9 to say how long this lasted. In such situations, time doesn't mean

10 anything.

11 Q. Witness, do you recall approximately how many soldiers were

12 present at the time you were beaten?

13 A. Yes. There were six of them, six soldiers. There was a line of

14 six soldiers.

15 Q. What were the soldiers wearing?

16 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

17 Q. Do you recall if you saw any distinctive badges, patches, or

18 other components of the uniforms that might have led you to know what

19 unit or military they were associated with?

20 A. Yes. On their sleeves here they had a sort of attachment,

21 something attached to the sleeve, and they had an inscription that was

22 printed on their sleeves, on both arms, on the left arm and on the right

23 arm.

24 Q. Do you recall what the inscription that was printed on their

25 sleeves said or indicated?

Page 1537

1 A. I couldn't say what it said exactly, because there wasn't any

2 light in the basement and it wasn't possible to see things clearly. So I

3 can't say for certain that I saw certain things. Later, they said these

4 inscriptions were the inscriptions of the 7th Brigade. These were the

5 inscriptions they had.

6 Q. Witness, you said upon arrival they started beating you. Do you

7 recall what they were using, what instruments they were using to beat you

8 with upon your arrival?

9 A. Yes. They kicked us. They'd punch us. There were cables that

10 they would use, short cables, about half a metre long. I don't know

11 whether they were plastic or of some other material. That's -- that's

12 what they used to beat us with.

13 Q. You mentioned cubicles in the basement of the Motel Sretno. Can

14 you describe these cubicles for the Trial Chamber, please.

15 A. Yes, I can, because I spent quite a lot of time there, so I can

16 provide you with the details. It was some sort of a temporary warehouse.

17 There were two or three of them, one after the other. And let's say the

18 dimensions were 2 metres by 2 metres. They had some sort of protection

19 in front of them, some sort of wooden bars. There was a -- at the top of

20 the hall, there were some metal bars, and to the left there was another

21 cubicle of that kind and to the right there was such a cubicle. They

22 were used as storage space, and they were more or less the same size, all

23 of these cubicles.

24 Q. Upon your arrival at Motel Sretno in the basement on the 18th of

25 June, 1993, were there any other civilians being detained in the basement

Page 1538

1 of that building at the time you arrived?

2 A. No. No, I didn't see any civilians there.

3 Q. How long did you remain in the basement of the Motel Sretno,

4 after your arrival on the 18th of June, 1993?

5 A. I remained there on the following day and the day after that, so

6 two complete days, until the afternoon, until the third day, until about

7 midday, something like that.

8 Q. During the three days that you remained in the basement of the

9 Motel Sretno, were any other civilians brought to the basement and

10 detained there?

11 A. Yes. A young man, who was about 30 or 35 years old, was brought

12 in. He was a civilian. And he was imprisoned together with me in what

13 we could call a cell. That was on the following day.

14 Q. Other than this young man and yourself, during the three days

15 that you were there, was anyone else, any other civilians detained in the

16 basement of the Motel Sretno?

17 A. No. There were just the two of us, while I was there.

18 Q. During the three days that you were detained in the basement of

19 the Motel Sretno, were you taken out of the cubicle that you were being

20 detained in for any purpose?

21 A. Yes, I was taken out so that I could wash myself and so I could

22 eat because there was a canteen, a sort of temporary canteen that was a

23 little before that cubicle. And so yes, I was taken out to eat and to go

24 to the toilet.

25 Q. At any time were you taken out for any type of interrogation or

Page 1539

1 questioning while you were kept at the Motel Sretno?

2 A. No.

3 Q. At any point in time after your arrival, were you -- you've told

4 us about being beaten upon arrival. Were there any incidents after that

5 where you were physically mistreated?

6 A. Yes. I think that happened on the following day. In the

7 afternoon, none of the soldiers were present. I think that only one of

8 the soldiers was in the hall. They called me to come to the bars of the

9 prison and to lean against the bars. He then took some sort of wooden

10 implement which is used to cover houses with, and then he would hit me on

11 the head. He would do this through the bars. He did it several times.

12 Luckily the wooden implement broke. That was just one of the soldiers

13 there.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's probably an interpretation

16 error, since the witness said again that it was just one soldier. At

17 line 17 -- no, 16 -- it says "they called me." And that would mean that

18 there were several of them. Whereas the witness said "he called me." So

19 if this could be corrected immediately.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So could the

21 Prosecution ask the witness again whether there was just one soldier who

22 was present there or whether there were several of them, because in line

23 17 it appears to be ambiguous, since the Defence heard something else in

24 the B/C/S version. So could we ask the witness again to correct this.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 1540

1 Q. Witness, on this occasion that you're telling us about, where you

2 were leaning against the bars, was there one soldier present or more than

3 one soldier present?

4 A. I was facing that soldier, and only one soldier was present. I

5 think he was on duty or something like that. There was just one soldier

6 who did that. I don't know how this translation error occurred, but

7 there was only one soldier who was present.

8 Q. Other than the time when you were mistreated upon your arrival at

9 the Motel Sretno and this incident which you've just described involving

10 one soldier, were there any other occasions during the time you were

11 detained at the Motel Sretno where you were physically mistreated?

12 A. No. No, there was no other -- there were no other occasions on

13 which I was mistreated in Motel Sretno.

14 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber any physical

15 injuries that you received as a result of these beatings in the basement

16 of the Motel Sretno.

17 A. Because of the last time -- because of the last time I was beaten

18 by this soldier, I was covered in blood. I don't have a medical report

19 about this, but there are visible traces on my head. There are scars.

20 But as for the rest, well, there were bruises.

21 Q. The blood that you've told us about, do you know where on your

22 body that blood came from?

23 A. From my head.

24 Q. During the time you were detained in the basement of the Motel

25 Sretno, Witness, did you observe the young man who was detained with you

Page 1541

1 being mistreated in any way?

2 A. No, I didn't. But I have to emphasise that that soldier wanted

3 us to fight each other. We had to do that. But I must say that we -- we

4 acted this out. You know how it looks. He'd hit me, and then I'd hit

5 him. These weren't blows of any kind.

6 Q. You've told us, Witness, that you remained in the Motel Sretno

7 for three days. Where did you go at the end of that three-day period?

8 A. After that - and I remember this well - I was covered in blood.

9 They put me in the van together with another civilian. And I was a

10 civilian too. They put us in the van. We didn't know where we were

11 going.

12 When we took the road, I realised we were going to Kakanj, to the

13 town. We didn't know what was going to happen. And when we arrived at

14 the entrance over the bridge, to the first building, they stopped and

15 they said that -- they told this person to get out. I saw that they were

16 releasing him. And they then turned around and continued with me as far

17 as Zenica.

18 Q. Do you know who this other civilian that was with you in the

19 kombi was, the one that they released? Do you know who he was or where

20 he came from?

21 A. I don't know him. He was a young man, 30, 35 years old. He said

22 that he was a bulldozer operator and that he worked on some sort of

23 sparse road. I didn't have the opportunity to ask him what it was. But

24 he was building a road somewhere. And I assume that that is why they

25 released him without any complications.

Page 1542

1 Q. Was this the same man that you had been detained in the basement

2 with, this civilian that they released?

3 A. Yes. That's the same young man.

4 Q. Witness, you told us just a moment ago that they continued with

5 you as far as Zenica. How far is it from Kakanj to Zenica?

6 A. The exact distance between Kakanj and Zenica is 28 kilometres, up

7 to the junction. And if you add the distance that you have to drive

8 through the town, it's another kilometre.

9 Q. Do you recall approximately what time you arrived in Zenica on

10 that day?

11 A. Yes, I do. It may have been after 12.00, at about half past

12 12.00 because the soldiers who were in the Music School, they had just

13 finished lunch. So most of the soldiers were present there.

14 Q. Witness, you just mentioned the Music School. In fact, is that

15 where they took you in the kombi on the 21st of June, 1993?

16 A. Yes, that's the building. I remember it well.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness now be

18 shown the electronic copy of Prosecution Exhibit 7, if that could be put

19 on the monitor for the witness, please.

20 A. Yes, that's it.

21 Q. The building that you see, Prosecution Exhibit 7, is the Zenica

22 Music School. Is that what you're saying, Witness?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened once you

25 arrived at the Zenica Music School on the 21st of June, 1993, at about

Page 1543

1 12.00 or 12.30 in the afternoon.

2 A. Yes. As I have already said, it was lunchtime and a lot of

3 soldiers were leaving the canteen. The van stopped in front of the

4 building, right in front of the building. And I remember this well.

5 They took me into the building then. At the entrance to the building,

6 there were bars. Naturally, the entrance was open. And when they had

7 taken me inside, one of the soldiers - I don't know who - immediately

8 cried out, "Here is a Chetnik." And then the beating started. It was a

9 line of soldiers up to the entrance into the basement of the Music School

10 and everyone would deal me a blow with whatever he could get his hands

11 on. I was most frequently kicked. This continued until I entered the

12 basement, because the basement was immediately to the left, perhaps at a

13 distance of 2 or 3 metres, and then there was a sort of a landing, and

14 then you would descend into the basement. So this gauntlet of soldiers

15 is the one that I had to run through, and then they beat me.

16 Q. Witness, do you recall approximately how many soldiers

17 constituted this gauntlet?

18 A. I think it's difficult to say how many of them there were

19 exactly, but not less than ten soldiers. It's difficult to provide the

20 exact number.

21 Q. What were these soldiers wearing?

22 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms, and some of them were also

23 wearing black uniforms, uniforms that were completely black.

24 Q. Do you recall whether you saw any patches, insignia, or other

25 identifying features of these uniforms that might have led you to

Page 1544

1 conclude what unit or military organisation they were associated with?

2 A. Yes. As I have already said, they had these attachments on their

3 sleeves, on both sleeves. And let's say there were some sort of

4 inscriptions on them. But when there's such a confusion and you're being

5 beaten by everyone it's impossible to remember this or to notice what the

6 inscription is. They don't allow you to look. They always tell you to

7 bend your head. I don't know why. Probably to prevent someone from

8 identifying something or seeing something, et cetera.

9 Q. Again, Witness, can you tell the Trial Chamber, if you recall,

10 what type of instrument or instruments you were beaten with upon arrival

11 at the Music School.

12 A. Yes. As I have already said, it was mostly their shoes. So they

13 would kick us. Then they'd use their rifle butts. And there were these

14 rubber or plastic cables. I can't be sure whether it was rubber or

15 plastic, but they used pieces of cable.

16 Q. How long did this beating occur for upon your arrival?

17 A. It happened immediately. As soon as I entered the hall of the

18 Music School, it started immediately. As to how long it lasted, I don't

19 know.

20 Q. Once you went through this gauntlet, witness, where did you then

21 or where were you then taken?

22 A. When you turned left, that led to the basement, so -- to the

23 basement of the Music School. There was a classroom that was part of the

24 Music School there. I came across quite a lot of civilians down there.

25 I didn't know who they were immediately, because it was dark, because the

Page 1545

1 windows were very small and it was in the basement and there wasn't much

2 light. I couldn't get used to the dark. All I know is that they said,

3 "Pop, how is it that you have ended up here?" Because that's what they

4 would call me, Pop, on the basis of my last name. It took me a while,

5 half an hour, to figure out who was down in the basement.

6 Q. Witness, how many civilians were detained in the basement of the

7 Zenica Music School when you arrived there on the 21st of June, 1993?

8 A. After that, when I came to and felt better, I saw that they were

9 all -- well, not all of them, but that they were from Kakanj. There were

10 a lot of people I knew, colleagues of mine from Kakanj, and there were a

11 total of 11 of them, 11 whom I found there.

12 Q. So once you joined them, there was a total of 12; is that right?

13 A. Correct, yes.

14 Q. Of these 11 men that were there, how many of them did you know

15 from before?

16 A. Well, I can tell you them all. There was Cicak Ilija, Ilija

17 Cicak; Ivica Andrijevic; Tvrtkovic Ivica; Franci Zupancic, I knew him;

18 then there was another engineer whom I didn't know, his name was Stjepan.

19 Those are the ones I knew. Oh, yes, there was another one called Dane

20 Majic, I knew him because he worked with me at the powerplant. And there

21 was someone else, but he was released very quickly. His named was

22 Cvijanovic. I can't remember his first name. I know that his father's

23 name is Ranko. So those are the ones I knew personally. And that's why

24 they said, "How come you're here, Pop?" And I said, "Well, here I am."

25 I didn't know the others, but we got to know each other, talking to each

Page 1546

1 other, and so forth.

2 Q. Witness, how long were you kept in the basement of the Zenica

3 Music School following your arrival on 21 June 1993?

4 A. You mean in the Music School? Is that the question? How long --

5 Q. Yes, how long were you detained in the Music School?

6 A. I stayed there until the 20th of August -- yes, the 20th of

7 August. Of that same year, of course.

8 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber any instances after

9 your arrival where you were physically mistreated while detained at the

10 Music School.

11 A. I think that the first beating - and we called that, well,

12 allegedly, our welcoming - that was two or three days later. In the

13 evening hours, a guard turned up. At least they called him the guard,

14 but he was the prison warden, and call me out to go upstairs on the first

15 floor. And I knew what was coming, what was in store for me. I don't

16 think there was any electricity that night. There were just some candles

17 that had been lit. And they took me up to the first floor of the Music

18 School and into an office there. There was a writing table in the office

19 and a man sitting at the table. And there were four soldiers there too.

20 They ordered me to sit down on the chair, and then the interrogation

21 started.

22 They asked me to tell them where my radio station was, who I was

23 connected to, and what my code was. I said I didn't have a radio

24 station, that I had handed it back and that I can't give you a code or

25 anything else, because I haven't got one. But that wasn't enough for

Page 1547

1 him, and they began beating me. There were four of them. One of them

2 was wearing a black uniform. I remember that. That remains in my mind

3 because it instilled the greatest fear. And that's when the beating

4 started. And they started beating me with whatever they had at hand.

5 One of them beat me with one of these rifles that they called the

6 Pumperica with the barrel and I had a injury from that, a scar. And the

7 rest cruised what they had, the rubber cable, they kicked me, they beat

8 me with their fists. And how long did that last? Well, I can't say

9 exactly. Because it's difficult to say how long things like that last

10 when you're actually there. You're very frightened. You have to fight

11 for your survival, so you can't give an exact time. But I was really

12 very well beaten up there.

13 Q. What type of physical injuries did you sustain as a result of

14 this beating?

15 A. After I was beaten, they took me off, and the only thing I was

16 worried about was that I would fall unconscious, because then I couldn't

17 know what they were going to do to me. They threw me into the basement,

18 and all my colleagues rushed up to see what had happened to me. I found

19 it difficult to walk and stand, but I did manage to stand up. I'm not a

20 very strong man otherwise, but I did manage to stand on my own two feet.

21 They gave me some water. I think Ivica was the name of a man who gave me

22 a cigarette. Although, I'm not a smoker, he gave me a cigarette. So I

23 lit it and smoked.

24 Now, as to the injuries, they were bruises. I was all black and

25 blue all over my back, all black and blue. And they put damp cloths over

Page 1548

1 my injuries, bandaged me up and so on. But there wasn't -- there wasn't

2 any blood, just the bruises.

3 Q. On any other occasion before you were taken away from the Music

4 School were you physically mistreated, other than your -- upon your

5 arrival and this incident that you've just been describing for us?

6 A. No. No, there wasn't.

7 Q. Did you witness any of the other men detained in the basement of

8 the Music School being physically mistreated?

9 A. Well, let me put it this way: All I could see was when they --

10 what they looked like when they came back, having been beaten. So I was

11 an eyewitness to what they looked like afterwards. I saw their injuries,

12 just as they had seen the injuries on my own body. And I think that's

13 quite sufficient.

14 Q. To your recollection, were any of the other men who were detained

15 with you during this period in the basement of the Zenica Music School

16 spared such physical mistreatment?

17 A. This is how it was: I've forgotten a little, how it was, but I'm

18 remembering -- trying to remember. At one point, after my own arrival,

19 two other young men were brought in. One of them might have been about

20 25. And he was wounded in his eye. Actually, he didn't have one eye,

21 and he was brought in from the hospital. And he said that he had lost

22 his eye in some fighting, in an armed struggle. The second young guy

23 didn't have a leg. He was brought in from the battlefield and from the

24 hospital too, where he lost his leg. So according to them - although, I

25 didn't feel this - but I didn't see any physical mistreatment of those

Page 1549

1 two. That's a fact. They just took them up to be questioned and things

2 like that. But I didn't see any traces of physical abuse, nor did they

3 say they had been beaten or mistreated.

4 Q. Other than these two individuals that you've just described, of

5 the original 11 people that were there when you got there were they all

6 physically mistreated during the time you were at the Music School?

7 A. Yes, all of them.

8 Q. Do you know during the time you were in the basement of the

9 Zenica Music School whether any international observers entered that

10 building?

11 A. Well, the journalist who was with us from Kakanj, this man called

12 Franci Zupancic understood English. And at one point he said, "Just a

13 second. Somebody is speaking English." And then he said that there were

14 people from the International Red Cross. And that happened twice. So

15 they did come there in intervals of 20 days, but they didn't actually

16 come down into the basement, to the room where we were in. Now, why not

17 I really can't say.

18 Q. Witness, can you describe for the Trial Chamber the living

19 conditions that you endured in the basement of the Zenica Music School

20 during the period you were detained there.

21 A. Yes, I can. It was a room, let us say 8 times 15 in size. And

22 there were some plastic tiles on the floor. And we had to clean them,

23 the detainees. So it was clean because it was in our best interest to

24 keep it clean, for health reasons.

25 At the other end of the classroom were the school benches, the

Page 1550

1 kind you would find in any school. And there were some army blankets and

2 some sponge mattresses that we silent on, foam mattresses or whatever.

3 So we kept the place as clean as we could.

4 Q. What about access to food or drinking water? What was that like?

5 A. As far as drinking water, we did have drinking water; not a lot

6 of it, but we had enough for our requirements. We would go up onto the

7 floor above to wash ourselves. As to food, we did have food. Of course,

8 we didn't have any choice, nor was it a lot, but as we kept the canteen

9 clean too, we could see that they didn't have much more either. So we

10 were more or less equals there; they didn't have a lot and we didn't have

11 a lot either. But they gave us enough to keep us alive.

12 Q. Did you have access to either showers or bathtubs during the

13 two-month period you were there?

14 A. No. Well, there were no bathtubs or showers. There was just a

15 row of taps and sort of wash basins. And we could wash there.

16 Q. Witness, did you have in the basement, in the room that you were

17 kept in, was there a toilet that you could use?

18 A. No, there wasn't a toilet. If we needed to go to the toilet, the

19 guard would let us go outside and up onto the floor above. They were

20 always ready to do that when there weren't any soldiers there, because

21 they knew what we could expect if there were any soldiers around. So

22 they were okay guys in that respect. But we also had a bucket for

23 urinating in, not to have to leave the room, for our own safety for that.

24 Q. Witness, finally, you've mentioned on a few occasions that you

25 had had before you were arrested and detained a radio and that you had

Page 1551

1 turned that in. Do you recall the month and year that you turned in

2 your radio?

3 A. I turned the radio in straight away, at the beginning of the war.

4 That might have been May 1992. So at the beginning of the war, that's

5 when I turned it in.

6 Q. And when you say in this context, "the beginning of the war," you

7 mean the greater war in Bosnia, not the war that began in Kakanj?

8 A. Yes, that's right, the greater war, the beginning of the actual

9 war.

10 Q. Thank you, witness.

11 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

12 time for the witness.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Witness, I have two or three questions to ask you myself.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We listened with great care and

17 attention to the answers you gave to the questions asked, and you said

18 that when you were captured in your apartment that the reason was that

19 the two soldiers, who came to your apartment, wanted to check whether you

20 had returned your radio station. Is that it?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When you were

23 detained in the Sretno Motel, you were hit by a soldier, and the blows

24 that you received for you, were they individual blows or was that the

25 general modus operandi? Was that what the soldiers did generally? Did

Page 1552

1 the soldiers get out of control and start beating the person that they

2 had control of, or do you think that it was systematic?

3 A. Well, I can't answer that, but this soldier was alone, so I

4 assume that it was something individual that he did and not systematic.

5 He himself decided to beat me. I don't know what else was happening

6 around me, but that's what happened to me. And I don't know whether that

7 answers your question.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Now,

9 with respect to your two-month detention, you were subjected to

10 interrogation, and that apparently was once again linked to the question

11 of the radio station and the code. Did they think you were a spy? Was

12 that the sense of their interrogation? Did they think you were a spy, in

13 actual fact?

14 A. Yes, I think that was it, nothing more than that. Because it

15 just all boiled down to one question: Do you have a radio or don't you?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were -- how

17 many times were you interrogated?

18 A. At the Music School, I was just interrogated once; that night, as

19 I described earlier on.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You said that you

21 were subjected to beatings and blows. In your opinion, the people who

22 did the beating, did they seem to be following orders or once again did

23 that seem to be on their own bat, at their own initiative, or were those

24 individuals acting pursuant to some orders?

25 A. Well, I can't answer that. I don't know.

Page 1553

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

2 Now it is twenty-five minutes to 6.00. I think that the best

3 thing would be to take our regular break, which we have to do anyway, for

4 the technicians to be able to change the tape - if there are no further

5 questions, of course -- perhaps the Defence doesn't have any further

6 questions. No cross-examination?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

8 Good afternoon, Mr. Popovic.

9 I should like to say that General Hadzihasanovic's Defence has no

10 questions of this witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we just have a

13 few questions. It will take no more than five minutes, I hope.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if we have the technical

15 possibility to do so, may we continue for those five minutes?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that ought to be

17 technically possible, as we know your ability to synthesise. Go ahead

18 with your question.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tvrtkovic --

21 A. No, I'm not Tvrtkovic.

22 Q. I do apologise. Popovic. I am Mr. Kubura's Defence counsel.

23 And I have a few questions to ask you with respect to this afternoon's

24 testimony.

25 While you were at the Music School, during those two months, were

Page 1554

1 members of your family able to visit you?

2 A. Yes. Let me tell you. Yes, they did have the right to visit us,

3 and people were able to bring in food. I myself did not have any close

4 relatives there. I just had an aunt living in Zenica. And she wasn't

5 well off. But yes, he would bring me in things from time to time.

6 However, the rest of the detainees from Kakanj had large families and

7 relatives, and they were allowed to bring in food to the detainees.

8 Let me also state that when they brought in the food, there was

9 just a routine checkup to see that it was only food that was being

10 brought in. And the food was given to us.

11 And let me also add that we -- they also -- we were also allowed

12 to send out our dirty underwear and clothing to cleaned and a fresh

13 change of clothes to be brought in.

14 Q. One more question: When you described the person who

15 interrogated you at the Music School, you said in your prior statement to

16 the investigators of the Tribunal that it was an individual who was thin,

17 with a small beard, and you said that his name was Jasmin Ismic; is that

18 right?

19 A. Well, I didn't know him at the time. None of the detainees knew

20 that person at the time. But I don't know. Somehow they learnt what his

21 name was. Whether just by chance, because they would call -- the

22 soldiers would call out -- not soldiers, the people would call out to

23 each other. So that's how they came to know his name. Otherwise, none

24 of us detainees knew who he was.

25 Q. Well, could you just tell me whether that was the man in

Page 1555

1 question, according to what you learnt later on?

2 A. Well, I can't actually say, but the people said that that was his

3 name. The others said that that was his name. But nobody saw him after

4 that. I left; everybody else left; we all went our separate ways, so I

5 didn't give it much thought afterwards.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any questions?

9 MR. MUNDIS: No further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Judges would like

13 to thank you for coming into court to testify. I'm going to ask the

14 usher to escort you out of the courtroom, and we wish you bon voyage and

15 return to your country.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I am glad if I have

17 managed to help you in any way.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has no further

19 questions or observations, and neither does the Prosecution.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And no more witnesses either.

22 The next witness has been scheduled for Monday afternoon; is that

23 right, Mr. Withopf? You have everything in your hands and are in charge

24 of producing witnesses, I believe.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Right, Mr. President, Your Honours. We have two

Page 1556

1 witnesses for Monday next week and two witnesses for Tuesday next week.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That being the

3 case, the Trial Chamber takes note that there are no witnesses for

4 Friday, and so we won't be sitting tomorrow afternoon, but we'll

5 reconvene on Monday at quarter past 2.00 to hear the next witnesses and

6 their testimonies. And they will be Prosecution witnesses.

7 So see you all back here on Monday at 2.15. The meeting is

8 adjourned.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.40 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of

11 January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.