1 Wednesday, 21 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.

12 For the Prosecution, Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager, Kimberly

13 Fleming.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Appearances for the Defence.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. On

17 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane

18 Bourgon, co-counsel; and legal assistant. We would like to inform the

19 Trial Chamber that in the Chamber -- in the courtroom we still have

20 General Hadzihasanovic with us, and he asked me again to thank the Trial

21 Chamber to be able to be present at his brother's funeral.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 The Defence of Mr. Kubura.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

25 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Mr. Rodney Dixon, Mr. Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

1 Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We are going to go

3 into private session, Mr. Registrar, please.

4 [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Mr. Withopf, you can continue with your examination-in-chief.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS XC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

14 Examined by Mr. Withopf: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, Witness XC. Witness --

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Witness XC, yesterday before the break you talked about your

18 experiences in the Mehurici Elementary School. Can you please inform the

19 Trial Chamber for how long you have been detained in the Mehurici

20 Elementary School.

21 A. I stayed, together with other civilians, up to 19th or 20th of

22 June in the elementary school in Mehurici. That was in 1993.

23 Q. On the 19th or 20th of June, 1993, what happened to you?

24 A. Representatives of the International Red Cross came. They

25 entered together with some soldiers and some civilian police. The

1 soldiers and the civilian police read out a list with my name on it.

2 They told us to step out of the building. The rest could stay in the

3 sports hall.

4 Q. After this list had been read out and you were ordered to step

5 out of the building, did you go anywhere?

6 A. Yes. They took us to another building nearby. I found some

7 detainees there. They were Croats. Among them there were some women and

8 children. From there, they took some of the women and children into the

9 sports hall, and we were accommodated in that building for a while. The

10 Red Cross was there. They distributed ID cards amongst us in order to be

11 able to identify us. They gave us pieces of paper in case we wanted to

12 write to our family to let them know that we were alive and that we were

13 there.

14 After that, they took us to some sheds which had been used by the

15 forestry office before the war.

16 Q. Witness XC, can you please inform the Trial Chamber how far these

17 sheds have been away from the Mehurici Elementary School.

18 A. I think some 200 or 300 metres, not more.

19 Q. And, Witness XC, can you please inform the Trial Chamber who took

20 you to these sheds.

21 A. We were taken there by the civilian police.

22 Q. Did you go voluntarily to these sheds?

23 A. No. I was already separated from my wife and children. They had

24 stayed behind. They separated me and some others. I believe that there

25 were some 25 of us. After a day or two, some were ordered to return;

1 some new people were brought in. All in all, some 20 of us stayed on in

2 those two sheds.

3 Q. Can you please inform us about the ethnicity of the 20 or so

4 people who stayed in these two sheds.

5 A. We were all Croats.

6 Q. Have you been civilians or were these 20 individuals civilians or

7 soldiers?

8 A. I always declared myself as a member of the HVO. That means I

9 was a soldier. However, there were some elderly people amongst us.

10 There were some handicapped people amongst us. There were even a miner

11 person who was later on transferred to Kapelica to join with his father.

12 In any case, some of us were soldiers, but some of us were also

13 civilians.

14 Q. For how long have you been detained in the shed you were

15 mentioning?

16 A. From the 20th of June to the 4th or the 6th of July. I can't

17 remember exactly. In any case, that's for how long we stayed in those

18 sheds.

19 Q. Do you know the names of the other detainees who stayed with you

20 in the shed? And for the time being, I wish you only to answer with yes

21 or no, either yes or no.

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I wish to like -- to

24 go in private session.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We shall go

1 into private session, please.

2 [Private session]

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you.

2 Q. Witness XC, can you please describe the living conditions in the

3 shed you have been detained with the other people you just mentioned.

4 A. The shed in which I was, there were 12 of us. It was a shed made

5 of concrete, with a concrete floor. The size of the room was 3 by 3

6 metres. We had just one blanket. There were 12 of us. When we wanted

7 to have a rest, we couldn't. We used a bucket as a toilet, and they

8 would also let us use the nearby building as toilet.

9 In the second shed where the others were, I was never there, but

10 they told me that their conditions were even worse. They had to remain

11 seated all the time. And if they wanted to stretch their legs, then they

12 had to make room by one of them lying down and the other stretching their

13 legs over that person. That's what they told me. I didn't see it

14 myself.

15 Q. Witness XC, can you please inform the Trial Chamber for how long

16 you and the other detainees had to live under such conditions.

17 A. From the 20th of June to the 4th or 6th of July, 1993, I had to

18 live like that. For some 15 days or so.

19 Q. Does this also apply to the other detainees who were with you?

20 A. Yes. We all shared the same destiny. Sometimes during the day

21 they would take us out of the shed to do some chores, but we were there

22 all together all the time.

23 Q. During this time period, Witness XC, have you or have the other

24 detainees been taken out for questioning?

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19 Q. Witness XC, you were mentioning that the persons which you

20 detailed were taken to the school and beaten there. Just for

21 clarification, which school are you referring to?

22 A. The elementary school where we had been detained before and where

23 the army members were on the upper-most floor, so the same school where

24 the detainees were.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the Registrar

1 to prepare the order to redact the name in line 25:1, as well as in line

2 12 and the following lines. These are the names which may reveal the

3 identity of Witness XC. We are in open session, as we know.

4 Mr. Withopf, can you please continue.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you.

6 Q. Witness XC, the individuals which were beaten in the Mehurici

7 Elementary School, were they beaten in the building you yesterday made

8 the marks on the photograph?

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10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, you have the

11 floor.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not sure what

13 the witness said earlier; however, I've been following the transcript,

14 and he was talking about the people being taken away. He didn't witness

15 the situation. Later on he spoke about the fact that he must have

16 learned subsequently, and that is that these people were beaten when the

17 rifle and the money were not found. So I believe that the questions that

18 the Prosecution is putting now is not based on what the witness knows

19 personally or what he himself really saw.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, have you heard

21 what the Defence has just said?

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, it's certainly correct

23 that the witness is making reference to facts he got to know from third

24 persons; however, it is the position of the Prosecution that his evidence

25 is admissible.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Would you

2 please continue with your examination-in-chief. And I would also like to

3 ask Mr. Registrar to make whatever is necessary to redact those lines

4 which may identify the witness.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please continue,

7 Mr. Withopf.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm

9 actually very close to finishing the examination-in-chief of Witness XC.

10 Q. Witness XC, you were informing the Trial Chamber that you have

11 been detained until the 4th or 6th of June, I think -- unfortunately, I

12 can't read it here any more. Can you please confirm for how long you

13 have been detained.

14 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.

15 Q. What happened on the 4th or 6th of June, 1993?

16 A. Before I answer your question, I would like to say something

17 else.

18 On that date, when we were supposed to go, we didn't know where

19 we were going. Some guys who were being taken out came back black and

20 blue from beating. They probably knew that we were being transferred

21 today and they made the most of that opportunity to beat us.

22 On that day, they took us to a bus. We didn't know where we were

23 being taken. Nobody wanted to tell us. They loaded us on the bus, and

24 at one place we stopped, and that's where three other detained Croats

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7 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President. I think the witness

8 named a number of individuals, and it needs to be redacted.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Can we please redact

10 lines in which names were mentioned, line 19, line 20, and Line 21, as

11 well as the reference in line 22 which concerns the schoolmate of the

12 witness. So, 20, 21, and 23.

13 Continue, please.

14 MR. WITHOPF:

15 Q. Witness XC, where have you finally been taken to?

16 A. We were taken to the prison in Zenica. We were registered there

17 by the International Red Cross. And this prison was registered by the

18 International Red Cross as a prison for prisoners of war.

19 Q. And does this prison in Zenica have a name?

20 A. Yes. Even before, it was called the Zenica KP Dom. I think that

21 was still its name.

22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness XC.

23 MR. WITHOPF: This concludes the examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

25 Before the Defence takes the floor for its cross-examination,

1 there is a question I would like to put to you, Witness XC.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that when you were

4 detained in the school you were transferred to a shed, but that was after

5 representatives of the Red Cross came to visit you in the school and the

6 representatives of the Red Cross had a list of names. Can you confirm

7 that the Red Cross representatives had a list of names?

8 A. I didn't say that the Red Cross had a list, but I said that the

9 people, the civilian police, they read out that list before the Red Cross

10 appeared. They appeared in front of the school. They read out the names

11 of those people and took us to a different building. And the other

12 detainees remained in that hall.

13 The Red Cross visited us in that other building. When they took

14 us there, that is where we were visited and were provided with these

15 records, according to which we'd been registered with them, and they'd

16 give us some sort of questionnaires to send to our parents, but they

17 never came to pick them up. The Red Cross never came to pick these

18 questionnaires up from us.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for these details.

20 You said that the civilian police had this list of names. The civilian

21 police, as far as you're able to determine this, at the time who were

22 they accountable to?

23 A. Well, I don't know who they were accountable to, but there was

24 cooperation between the civilian police, the army. Some of them had

25 certain duties; others other duties. All I can say is there was

1 cooperation between them, because the civilian police would take us to be

2 questioned. For example, they escorted me to the village. So there was

3 some kind of cooperation between them.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How do you distinguish between

5 the civilian and the military police? How can you differentiate them?

6 A. Well, the military police, on the whole they had white belts,

7 whereas the civilian police had a different type of uniform. I can't

8 remember what kind of uniform, what colour it was. But that's what

9 helped us identify them.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Having heard these

11 additional details, the Defence may proceed with its cross-examination.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness XC, good day. My name is Edina

15 Residovic, and I'm representing General Hadzihasanovic. I would be

16 grateful if you could answer some of my questions.

17 A. Yes, of course.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session?

19 Because my -- the first couple of questions I have to ask might reveal

20 the witness's identity.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I was going to

22 say. If the questions will be such that the witness will be providing

23 names, yes, let's go into private session.

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. XC, would it be correct to say that in April 1992 the Serbian

21 army had already attacked and taken over the television transmitter which

22 was on Mount Vlasic?

23 A. Yes. I said yes.

24 Q. And that was a reason for the population to try to organise

25 themselves in a military fashion in April 1992, in order to protect

1 themselves and their area; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In fact, that was a period during which the Croatian and Muslim

4 population tried to organise themselves; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You in your village organised yourselves and you used the weapons

7 that you yourselves had, and your Muslim neighbours in the village which

8 was closest to you, Fazlici, did the same.

9 A. Yes. But Fazlici isn't the village closest to us. My first

10 neighbours are Bosniaks who were about 200 metres from my house. So we

11 organised ourselves and we tried to come to an agreement among ourselves

12 and go on guard duty. So there were no problems of any kind.

13 Q. Would it be correct to say that in May or June 1992 Filip Balta,

14 who was responsible for organising the people, established contact with

15 the HVO Main Staff in Guca Gora, and then you became an HVO squad? Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In the course of 1993, structures were reorganised in various

19 ways. So finally, in the spring of 1993, you became part of the newly

20 founded Frankopan Brigade, whose headquarters were in Guca Gora. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. From October 1992 --

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we now go into private

25 session.

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1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go back into private

2 session.

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I have several questions to ask you about a different matter now.

22 In fact, in the course of the examination-in-chief, you said that in 1992

23 the presence of foreigners in the municipality of Travnik was noticed.

24 Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. The foreigners, whom you called the Mujahedin, in the autumn of

2 1992 were noticed in the area of Mehurici too; is that correct?

3 A. In July or August, that's when they were observed in the area of

4 Mehurici.

5 Q. I apologise. I have to turn my microphone off when you are

6 answering my questions, and that is what I was informed of.

7 As you have already explained, these foreigners - that is to say,

8 the Mujahedin - looked different, very different from the Croatian and

9 Bosniak population. They were dark. They spoke a foreign language.

10 They had beards, et cetera. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You were aware of the fact that they had moved into an abandoned

13 Serbian house in Poljanice, which is where they set up a camp, and they

14 often went to Mehurici on market day. They left the house on such

15 occasions.

16 A. Yes, that's correct. But they weren't just in one house; there

17 were several houses that they inhabited.

18 Q. When passing through that area, you were able to see that those

19 houses were guarded by the Mujahedin; is that correct?

20 A. At the time, I didn't pass through that part, but our detainees

21 did and on that occasion, they saw that they were in those houses. But

22 there was no need for me to pass through Poljanice. But people who had

23 passed through Poljanice later saw them there, and it was common

24 knowledge that that is where they had found accommodation.

25 Q. Thanks. That explains it.

1 Yesterday you said that part of the local Muslim population and

2 refugees joined the Mujahedin and started emulating them. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. At the time, you were able to observe that not only the Croats

6 feared them, but many -- but many of the members of the army and the

7 local population.

8 A. Yes. People were afraid of such men.

9 Q. When the Mujahedin, in the autumn of 1992, for no apparent

10 reason, as you said, passed rapidly through your village with a group of

11 local young men, you went to the police station -- you went to the

12 civilian police station in Mehurici and you drew the attention to this

13 fact. You told the chief of the police of this fact. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, if my recollection is

17 not completely wrong, the witness did not say that the Mujahedin passed

18 rapidly through the village. The word "rapidly" is something which has

19 been added by Defence counsel.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, in response to

21 your question, that's what the witness said. He said it seemed to be

22 gymnastics of some kind. The witness can repeat what he said.

23 Q. Did they run through the village or did they linger in the

24 village?

25 A. They were doing gymnastics. They passed through the village.

1 They stayed in the village for a short time. They returned again. You

2 know, they were running slowly and crying out Arabic slogans, that sort

3 of thing. That's the way they do gymnastics.

4 Q. I think that this has clarified the matter, but that is the

5 reason, in any event, for which you went to see the chief of the civilian

6 place in Mehurici, and you drew his attention to this fact; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The chief of the civilian police at the time was Ferid Muhovic;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes. He was Ferid and there was another person. I don't know if

12 that was his name. But we turned to Ferid. I don't know whether he was

13 the main or the deputy commander, but he was responsible there.

14 Q. He promised that he would do what he could; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'd now like to discuss another subject. You said that up until

17 spring 1993 you and members of your squad went to the front lines in

18 Vlasic; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Towards the end of 1992 and at the beginning of 1993, the joint

21 task of the BH Army and the HVO was to protect the lines facing the

22 Serbian forces and to fight the Serbian attackers; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. In April 1993, you and members of your squad stopped going to the

25 front lines in Vlasic and you started holding the lines, securing the

1 lines around your village because of the conflicts that had broken out in

2 the surroundings between the army and the HVO; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. But that was a patrol in the village. It wasn't a line.

4 These were village patrols that we were involved in. There weren't any

5 lines in our village.

6 Q. In fact, because of the large-scale conflicts in the Lasva

7 Valley, the tension among the population in the village had increased,

8 and that was the reason for which you organised yourselves differently;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. You then received something against infantry mines from the

12 command in Guca Gora; is that correct?

13 A. We only started laying the mines when we heard about the massacre

14 in Miletici. Up until then, we only patrolled, went on patrol. But

15 after we heard what had happened in Miletici, since there weren't many of

16 us, we weren't able to provide security for the entire village, so we

17 laid infantry mines on our ground and nowhere else.

18 Q. Thank you. We'll now return to the events -- on the 7th of June,

19 1993, you received an order to return to Gornje Maljine, but you returned

20 again because at the time the civilians had withdrawn from your village.

21 A. Yes. We returned that evening in order to patrol the village

22 again.

23 Q. However, on the 8th of June, in the morning, you received an

24 order again according to which you should withdraw to Gornje Maljine; is

25 that correct?

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. When you reached the first houses in Maljine, you hid yourselves

3 in a house, in one of the houses, in order to treat your father, who had

4 been hit by the effect of a bullet ricochetting.

5 A. That's correct. But it wasn't a house; it was a stable.

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15 (redacted). Most of all, he sat with us down there.

16 Occasionally someone else would appear. But he was there. He remained

17 there until they took us to Mehurici.

18 Q. He also requested that some young men, so to speak, some soldiers

19 report to go to Gornje Maljine to protect the houses of Croat inhabitants

20 from looters who had already started appearing; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it is. I remember his words very well, when he said, "Are

22 there any honest men here? Twenty young men have looted our neighbour's

23 houses, and where are our neighbours to return to?"

24 Q. I won't ask you in detail about what the Prosecution discussed

25 with you, but I just want to check something. You said that while you

1 were in the primary school -- in the primary school, they interrogated

2 you on two occasions over a four-day period and you weren't mistreated.

3 A. No one beat me personally, because they knew me in that village.

4 I was well known in Mehurici, both I and my wife, so no one really

5 maltreated me much.

6 Q. While you were in the primary school, you got to know a member of

7 (redacted)

8 A. Yes. If I could add something: He was a member of the military

9 police.

10 Q. And through him, you tried to find out what the fate of certain

11 HVO soldiers was, HVO soldiers who had been captured and hadn't been

12 brought to Mehurici; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct too.

14 Q. He told you that he too had escorted a group of detainees, that

15 he'd been stopped in Poljanice by the Mujahedin, who put a knife to his

16 throat and took some detainees from him; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps for the

19 sake of the previous witness, who had been granted protective measures,

20 perhaps it might be a good idea to go into private session.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go into private session.

22 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask Madam Usher

14 to accompany the witness out of the courtroom.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall continue this session

17 until half past 10.00, when we are going to have our first break.

18 Before we see the next witness, I would like to indicate that

19 today the break has to last 30 minutes for technical reasons. We shall

20 break at 10.30 and resume our session at 11.00.

21 As for another point which has been raised, and that is that I've

22 promised the Defence -- that I'm going to submit the statistical data on

23 the protective measures for the witnesses. For the time being, out of

24 the 19 witnesses, 5 have been granted protective measures, and that is

25 26.3 per cent. One-fourth of the witnesses so far have been granted

1 protective measures.

2 I would like to invite the Prosecution to tell us whether the

3 witness is here and whether we can see the witness in the courtroom.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would request to go

5 into private session, since I will orally submit a motion for protective

6 measures for the next witness. It's my understanding that the witness is

7 available.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session,

9 please.

10 [Private session]

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, the Chamber is

25 retiring to deliberate on the issue that has been put forth. We are

1 coming back in a minute or so.

2 --- Break taken at 10.21 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. I

5 would kindly ask Mr. Registrar to move into public session -- into

6 private session. Sorry.

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, the Trial

25 Chamber informs the interested parties that we shall now have our first

1 break and that we shall resume at 11.00. We are inviting the Prosecution

2 to tell us at 11.00 whether they want to tender the document that has

3 just been mentioned. The Prosecution is going to tell us at 11.00, when

4 we resume with our session.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll resume now. And Mr.

8 Registrar, could we go into private session.

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 You may take the floor.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

10 Q. Good morning, Witness XD.

11 A. Good morning.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, may I please ask you to go back into

13 private session, since my very first question may -- the answers to my

14 very first questions may contain details that may identify the witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go into

16 private session.

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much.

16 Q. Witness XD, did there come a time in 1992 whilst you were working

17 in Travnik when you saw foreigners arriving in this area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber at what point in time

20 during the year 1992 it was.

21 A. That was in March. It was at the beginning of 1992.

22 Q. Can you please tell us, Witness XD, what sort of foreigners you

23 have seen arriving.

24 A. Well, these people were different from the ones who lived down

25 there. They were different.

1 Q. Can you please explain to us what was the difference between the

2 foreigners you have seen arriving and the people living in your area.

3 A. Well, they were dark. They had beards.

4 Q. Did you get to know from which countries these foreigners have

5 been?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Did these foreigners speak the same language as the people in

8 Travnik are speaking and spoke in 1992?

9 A. No, they didn't.

10 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Witness XD, as to

11 whether these foreigners wore uniforms.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And these uniforms, have these uniforms been military uniforms?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you please, Witness XD, also inform the Trial Chamber as

16 to whether these foreigners were armed.

17 A. Yes, they were.

18 Q. And can you please tell us what sort of arms they had.

19 A. Well, they had automatic rifles and knives.

20 Q. Do you know, Witness XD, what sort of automatic rifles?

21 A. Some kind of Kalashnikovs, something like that.

22 Q. And can you please inform us, Witness XD, what sort of knives

23 they had.

24 A. It depends. Some of them were a little longer. They were

25 sheathed, so I couldn't see them very well, but they were long.

1 Q. Was there a certain word, Witness XD, you used whenever you

2 talked about these foreigners?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the word "Mujahedin"?

5 A. Well, I later found out that they were called the Mujahedin.

6 Q. For clarification, you later found out that these foreigners in

7 military uniforms and having arms such as Kalashnikovs and long knives

8 were referred to as Mujahedin; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Witness XD, the uniforms the Mujahedin wore in 1992, the

11 Mujahedin you've seen in the area of Travnik in 1992, did these uniforms

12 have any military insignia on them?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please describe to the extent possible how these military

15 insignia looked like.

16 A. Well, there were two sabres. There was something written in

17 Arabic, and there was the sun and a book.

18 Q. Have you, Witness XD, seen such Mujahedins also in the beginning

19 of 1993 in the area of Travnik?

20 A. Yes, that's when I saw them the most.

21 Q. And do you recall, Witness XD, where in the beginning of 1993 you

22 have seen the Mujahedin the most?

23 A. It was near the mosque. I think it was in Osulje. There was a

24 Medresa there, a school. And they were also seen in the cafe, where I

25 worked.

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1 Q. The cafe in which you worked, was it located in Travnik?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber where this location,

4 Osulje, is situated.

5 A. It's right at the beginning of the entrance to Travnik.

6 Q. Witness XD, I'm now going to show you a board showing a number of

7 military insignia. It's Prosecution Exhibit P4. And, Witness XD, it

8 will appear on the screen in front of you.

9 Do you see, Witness XD, the photo board with the military

10 insignia in front of you?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Witness XD, you have just a few minutes ago described the

13 military insignia the Mujahedin were wearing in 1992 and 1993 in the area

14 of Travnik as showing two sabres and something written in Arabic and

15 there was the sun and a book.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

17 like to object because the witness did not state that the insignia were

18 military insignia.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness spoke about

20 insignia on the uniform. Very well. Please rephrase your question more

21 precisely.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honour, the witness was making

23 reference to the fact that the Mujahedin were wearing military uniforms,

24 and I have asked him whether there were any insignia on such military

25 uniforms. I think the only logical conclusion is these were military

1 insignia. However, I'm going to ask the Witness XD the following:

2 Q. The insignia you were describing a few minutes ago, do you see

3 any of such one or even more of such insignia on the board in front of

4 you that is similar or identical to the ones you have seen in 1992 and in

5 the beginning of 1993 were worn by the Mujahedin?

6 A. I see a similar one. I'm not sure that it is an identical one.

7 Q. And, Witness XD, can you please identify the similar one you are

8 referring to by telling the Trial Chamber the number which is shown on

9 this photo board in front of you.

10 A. Number 1.

11 Q. Is there any other of the insignia you see in front of you which

12 is similar or identical to the one -- to the ones you have seen the

13 Mujahedin wearing?

14 A. Another similar one is number 22. The only difference is that

15 this is an inscription in Arabic, instead of Muslim forces.

16 MR. WITHOPF: Very well. For the record, the Witness XD has

17 identified on the Prosecution Exhibit P4 the military insignias number 1

18 and number 22 as being similar to the ones which have been worn by the

19 Mujahedin in 1992 and in the beginning of 1993 in the area of Travnik.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness XD. The Mujahedin, what was their relation

21 with the local people in the area of Travnik?

22 A. They moved around accompanied by local population.

23 Q. They moved around accompanied by local population. The local

24 population you are referring to, Witness XD, were these civilians or were

25 these soldiers or were these a mixture of both?

1 A. Both.

2 Q. Both means including local soldiers?

3 A. Yes, both civilians and soldiers.

4 Q. And the local soldiers, were these Muslims or Croats?

5 A. Muslims.

6 Q. And, Witness XD, to which army did the Muslim local soldiers

7 belong to in the beginning of 1993?

8 A. The Green Berets.

9 Q. Can you inform the Trial Chamber, Witness XD, to which military

10 formation the Green Berets you are referring to were later on

11 transferred.

12 A. The BiH army.

13 Q. Witness XD, how would you describe the situation in the area of

14 Vitez and Travnik in the middle of 1993?

15 A. I would say that it was tense.

16 Q. And can you please explain why you would say that the situation

17 was tense.

18 A. It was the foreigners who caused that, and there had already been

19 a conflict. A conflict had already broken out.

20 Q. For clarification, the foreigners who caused that, are these the

21 foreigners you later on got to know that these were referred to as the

22 Mujahedin?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did there come a time when fighting broke out between the ABiH

25 and the HVO in your area, meaning in the area of Vitez and Travnik?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber when this actually

3 happened.

4 A. This was two months before.

5 Q. Witness XD, "this was two months before." Before what?

6 A. Before a conflict broke out in Travnik.

7 Q. Again, for clarification purposes only, can you inform the Trial

8 Chamber about the month when the conflict broke out in Vitez and in the

9 area of Travnik.

10 A. Vitez and Travnik?

11 Q. Right. And if there is a distinction, could you please

12 distinguish it.

13 A. The time was not the same. It was in Novi Travnik that the

14 conflict broke out first, and then Travnik followed after that.

15 Q. And again, can you please tell us during which month in 1993 the

16 conflict broke out.

17 A. In Vitez and in Travnik, I'm not sure. I believe that this was

18 in March or in April.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself: In the

20 previous answer, the witness said that the conflict broke out in Novi

21 Travnik first and then in Vitez.

22 MR. WITHOPF:

23 Q. Did there come a time, Witness XD, when you surrendered to the

24 ABiH?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And do you still have a recollection as to when this was?

2 A. This was on 18 or 19 September 1993 in Zabrdje, near Vitez.

3 Q. Can you please, Witness XD, provide us some more detail with

4 respect to your surrender.

5 A. We were in trenches. An attack started around 2.00 in the

6 afternoon. Two or three shells fell very close to my trench. An

7 infantry attack followed after that. They came close to us and started

8 throwing bombs into our trenches. The guy that was next to me in the

9 trench, he got killed. I was wounded, and one guy came from one of the

10 lower trenches to look for his co-fighters. He wanted to return, but as

11 he was coming out of the trench they started shooting at him. They hit

12 him in the legs. I pulled him back into the trench. A few more bombs

13 were thrown into the trench. Some got activated; some didn't. And then

14 they started shouting at us, asking us to surrender, which I did,

15 eventually.

16 Q. Witness XD, you just informed us that on the 18th or the 19th of

17 September, 1993 you surrendered to the ABiH. Do you still have a

18 recollection as to which unit or members of which unit you surrendered?

19 A. They were MOS members.

20 Q. Witness XD, "MOS," for what does it stand for?

21 A. Muslim armed forces.

22 Q. The members of the Muslim armed forces you surrendered to on the

23 18th or 19th of September, 1993, did they wear military uniforms?

24 A. Yes, they did.

25 Q. Were there any military insignia on these uniforms?

1 A. Yes, with the inscription "MOS" on them.

2 Q. Do you recall any further detail of the military insignia -- of

3 the military insignia other with the -- other than the inscription "MOS"?

4 A. There were two sabres and the inscription "MOS," and they were

5 green.

6 Q. Do you recall any further details of the military insignia?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Very well. After your surrender to MOS units of the ABiH, did

9 there come a time when you have been brought to some barracks in Travnik?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to how many days

12 passed by between your capture on the 18th or 19th of September, 1993,

13 and the day you have been brought to the barracks in Travnik.

14 A. I can't say with any certainty. I was in a very bad shape. I

15 believe that it was five or six days.

16 Q. And, Witness XD, can you please briefly describe for the Trial

17 Chamber what happened to you within these five or six days.

18 A. I was captured and taken some 50 away from -- 50 metres away from

19 the trench to an open field. All the fighters who had participated in

20 the battle were gathered there. There were a number of them. The

21 fighters bore the insignia of the BiH army. One of them that I knew from

22 before ran up to me and kicked me; another one took a knife, ran up to

23 me, but I pushed him away; then their commander intervened and told them

24 to leave me alone.

25 Then they took me to a little wood and ordered me to sit down.

1 As I was sitting down, those who were passing by me kicked me. One of

2 them allegedly recognised as a guard of a prison in Busovaca - although I

3 had never been there - and he wanted to take his revenge on me.

4 Then I was taken some 2 or 3 kilometres uphill to another open

5 field. There I was administered first aid. They dressed the wounds on

6 my face. My face was covered in blood. They gave me some water to

7 drink. Then two guys came. I don't know who they were. They took me 50

8 metres away from that place and started interrogating me at gunpoint.

9 They would put the barrel of their rifle into my mouth and against my

10 forehead, threatening me and asking me to give them information that I

11 couldn't give them, because I didn't know what to say.

12 Then they took me back to the place where I had been administered

13 first aid, and then I was put on a tractor and taken to the school in

14 Tornica. While I was riding on the tractor, I was also beaten. And when

15 I was in Tornica, they gathered around me. Some of them hit me and

16 kicked me, and then I was taken for another interrogation. I wasn't

17 beaten or ill-treated there, during that interrogation. And then I was

18 taken to my cell.

19 Q. Witness XD, whilst you were riding on the tractor, you were

20 beaten. The ones who beat you, were they soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And were they soldiers of the ABiH?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were informing us, Witness XD, that five to six days after

25 your surrender to MOS units of the ABiH on 18th or 19th of September,

1 1993, you were finally brought to some barracks in Travnik.

2 Witness XD, I'm now showing you a photograph. And this

3 photograph will appear on the screen in front of you.

4 MR. WITHOPF: And the Prosecution, for the information of Your

5 Honours and Defence counsel, will provide hard copies of this photograph

6 at a later point during today's proceedings.

7 Q. Witness XD, can you please tell us what you can see on the

8 photograph in front of you.

9 A. This is a building within the barracks compound where I was

10 detained.

11 Q. Do you know, Witness XD, as to whether this is a military

12 barracks which has been used prior to the war by the JNA?

13 A. I know that. It was.

14 Q. Can you please clarify for the Trial Chamber as to whether this

15 is the military barracks you have been brought to five or six days after

16 your surrender on the 18th or 19th of September, 1993.

17 A. Yes, this is the barracks.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, once the hard copies

19 of this photograph is available, we intend to tender it into evidence.

20 Q. Witness XD, were these soldiers of the ABiH who brought you to

21 the former JNA barracks in Travnik?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Once you arrived in the former JNA barracks in Travnik, where

24 have you been taken to?

25 A. They brought me to the entrance. Then I descended down a flight

1 of stairs. There were two guards there. They took my first and my last

2 names there and made a note of that.

3 Q. The two guards who were there and took your first and your last

4 name, were these soldiers?

5 A. Yes. They wore uniforms.

6 Q. And the uniforms they wore, were they ABiH uniforms?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. Witness XD, after you have been registered, meaning that your

9 first and your last name was taken and the note of that has been made,

10 where have you been brought to?

11 A. They took me to a cell.

12 Q. This cell, where in the building of the former JNA barracks,

13 where was this cell situated?

14 A. It was in the basement.

15 Q. Do you have a recollection, Witness XD, whether there have been

16 other cells in the basement different from the one you have been taken

17 to?

18 A. Yes. There were four cells all together.

19 Q. And can you please describe for the Trial Chamber how these cells

20 were situated in relation to each other.

21 A. They were next to each other.

22 Q. Can you please inform us about the size of the cells.

23 A. Approximately 6 by 4 metres or 4 by 5 metres.

24 Q. Witness XD, I will now show you - and again on the screen in

25 front of you - a further photograph, and copies of this photograph will

1 be made available to both the Chamber and Defence counsel in due course.

2 Witness XD, what do you see on the photograph in front of you?

3 A. This is the corridor and the cells where I was.

4 Q. You were brought to one of these cells, Witness XD. Were there

5 already any further detainees in the cell you were brought to?

6 A. No. There were some detained Muslims there.

7 Q. How did you get to know, Witness XD, that the other individuals

8 detained in the prison cell you have been brought to were Muslims?

9 A. I introduced myself to them and vice versa. And some of them I

10 knew from before.

11 Q. Did these Muslim detainees or some of them wear any military

12 uniforms?

13 A. Some did; some didn't.

14 Q. And the ones who actually wore military uniforms, were these

15 military uniforms of the ABiH?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After you were put in the prison cell together with the ABiH

18 soldiers which were detained there, what happened to you?

19 A. I wasn't maltreated there at all, and then they transferred me to

20 another cell. I was right next to this cell, and there were Muslims

21 there too.

22 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber how many Muslims were in

23 the first cell you were detained.

24 A. Well, it varied. Between seven and ten. One day two would

25 appear, and two or three would leave. So there were people coming and

1 going.

2 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to how many

3 Muslims were detained in the second cell you were imprisoned.

4 A. About ten people in the second cell.

5 Q. And the Muslims in the second cell, were they soldiers or

6 civilians?

7 A. They were all soldiers.

8 Q. And the soldiers in the second cell, members of which army were

9 they?

10 A. The BH Army.

11 Q. And how did you get to know this?

12 A. Well, by talking to them. And on the basis of the uniforms that

13 they were wearing.

14 Q. For verification, the uniforms they were wearing, were these ABiH

15 uniforms?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did there come a time, Witness XD, when you have been transferred

18 to another cell?

19 A. Yes, to the cell in which the Croatian people had been detained.

20 Q. The Croatian people which were detained in the third cell, were

21 these soldiers or civilians?

22 A. They were soldiers, but one of them was a civilian.

23 Q. For clarification, were they HVO soldiers?

24 A. Yes, they were.

25 Q. And how many detainees were in the third cell you have been

1 transferred to?

2 A. In that cell, there were nine of us. First of all, there were

3 nine of us, and then others arrived later.

4 Q. The others who arrived later, were they also Croat soldiers?

5 A. Yes, they were. But I wasn't with them. I was transferred to

6 another prison.

7 Q. The size of the third cell you were imprisoned, was it identical

8 or similar to the size of the first cell you have been imprisoned with

9 the Muslim soldiers?

10 A. Similar. It was similar.

11 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber for how long you have

12 been detained in the first cell with the ABiH soldiers.

13 A. Oh, a few days in the first cell.

14 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber for how long you have

15 been detained in the second cell, again with the ABiH soldiers.

16 A. I spent a day in the second cell. I spent the night there too.

17 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber for how long you have

18 been detained in the cell with the HVO soldiers.

19 A. Well, about six months.

20 Q. Witness XD, I'm now going to ask you whether you still recall the

21 names of the other Croat detainees. And for the time being, I ask you to

22 only respond by either yes or no.

23 A. Yes, I do remember them.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will now go into

25 private session.

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you.

25 Q. Witness XD, you were mentioning a few minutes ago that you

1 haven't been beaten in the first cell. Did there come a time during your

2 detention in the former JNA barracks in Travnik when you have been

3 beaten?

4 A. Yes, on one occasion.

5 Q. Can you please go into some detail in that respect.

6 A. Well, that was in the morning, when we were supposed to go and

7 wash. In fact, we had to go to the toilets. We had to go up a flight of

8 stairs. And usually BH Army troops would wait for us there, the troops

9 who slept over at the barracks. They'd wait for us in order to give us a

10 bit of a beating.

11 Q. Were there any beatings in respect to the other Croat detainees?

12 A. Yes. The others fared worse than I did. I can say that I fared

13 quite well.

14 Q. The other Croat detainees fared worse than you did. Can you

15 please provide us with some more detail in respect to the fact that they

16 fared worse than you did.

17 A. Well, individuals were able to get out of it. Guards would

18 prevent beatings. So we would rush into the cells while others were on

19 the floor because they didn't manage to get out in time.

20 Q. And, Witness XD, do you still recall whether the ones who beat

21 you and the other detainees were members of a particular ABiH unit?

22 A. Well, there were these members of the Coyotes, the Black

23 Coyotes, as they were called.

24 Q. And do you have a recollection of another particular unit which

25 has been involved in the beatings?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever hear, Witness XD, of a military unit called

3 Krajisnici?

4 A. Yes. In fact, they were all members of the Krajisnici. They

5 were all Krajisnici people on the grounds of the barracks.

6 Q. And do you know, Witness XD, who has been the commander of the

7 Krajisnici?

8 A. Alagic.

9 Q. And do you know, Witness XD, where this commander named Alagic

10 had his headquarters at the time you have been detained?

11 A. Well, across the road from our prison, 50 to 60 metres away there

12 was a building there, and rumour had it that he was billeted in that

13 building.

14 Q. During the time of your detention, of your six-month detention in

15 the former JNA barracks in Travnik, did there come a time when you have

16 been taken out for whatever reason?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And can you please explain us for what reasons you have been

19 taken out.

20 A. Well, I was taken out for a trial. And we also went to do work;

21 for example, if a central heating pipe broke, we had to repair it. So

22 there was work we had to do.

23 Q. Coming back to the ABiH soldiers which were detained together

24 with you in the first cell and in the second cell, do you know, Witness

25 XD, why these ABiH soldiers have been detained?

1 A. Well, because of theft, murder, desertion.

2 Q. How did you get to know that these ABiH soldiers were detained in

3 the former JNA barracks in Travnik because of theft, murder, and

4 desertion?

5 A. Well, because people speak about everything in the cells.

6 Everything was known.

7 Q. Does that mean that the ABiH soldiers detained together with you

8 told you about that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If my recollection isn't wrong, you said there were some ten ABiH

11 soldiers in the first cell and some ten ABiH soldiers in the second cell.

12 Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were these 20 ABiH soldiers -- about 20 ABiH soldiers all

15 detained for the reasons you just mentioned, namely, theft, murder, and

16 desertion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you get to know about this fact because they told you?

19 A. Yes, by listening to them speaking to each other.

20 Q. Did there come a time, Witness XD, when you got to know a bit

21 more about the crimes for which they were detained in the JNA barracks in

22 Travnik?

23 A. Yes, for some individuals.

24 Q. And can you please share with us the knowledge you have about

25 these individuals.

1 A. Well, those who were there for murder, yes, they were there for

2 murder and then for black marketeering, for theft, stealing flour, for

3 fleeing from the front line.

4 Q. Is there anything else you got to know?

5 A. Well, that's about it.

6 Q. The ones who have been detained in the JNA barracks in Travnik,

7 the former JNA barracks in Travnik, for murder, did you get to know about

8 any details in respect to the murders?

9 A. I don't know the details.

10 Q. Have you, Witness XD, ever been informed why you have been

11 detained in the former JNA barracks in Travnik?

12 A. Yes, for extremist action within the HVO, allegedly; simply on

13 the basis of the fact that I was an HVO member.

14 Q. How did you get to know, Witness XD, that there was an allegation

15 against you for extremist action within the HVO?

16 A. Well, because I went to court to be tried.

17 Q. Can you please tell us to which court you went to be tried.

18 A. It was a military court.

19 Q. And can you please tell us where this military court has been

20 situated.

21 A. In Travnik.

22 Q. Did you go to the military court in Travnik during the time you

23 have been detained in the former JNA barracks in Travnik?

24 A. I was in the barracks, and afterwards, when I was transferred to

25 this other place.

1 Q. Do you recall the month when you have been or when you went to

2 the Travnik military court?

3 A. The first time was in December.

4 Q. For clarification --

5 A. Something like that.

6 Q. -- was it December 1993?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. You are saying it was the first time in December 1993. Did there

9 come a second time when you went to the Travnik military court in the

10 course of your detention?

11 A. Well, then I received a decision on the extension of my time in

12 detention.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The witness didn't

14 say that he went there the first time in December. He said he went to

15 trial in December.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has taken

17 note of this comment.

18 The Prosecution should rephrase the question to ask him whether

19 he went to the military court before the month of December.

20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I refer to the

21 transcript. The question has been: "Do you recall the month when you

22 have been or when you went to the Travnik military court." And the

23 answer has been: "The first time --"

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, the transcript is

25 in English. It seems that the Defence heard the witness's answer in the

1 B/C/S language, and according to his answer in the B/C/S language it

2 doesn't tally with the English version.

3 Witness XD, when you went to the military court, you were -- you

4 went there in December. But did you go before the month December.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The first time you went to the

7 military court was in the month of December, then.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in the month of

9 December. That's when I received -- I've received a decision, and I

10 think it is noted in the decision.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you only went there once?

12 Or did you go there several times?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later I went again. I was first

14 given decisions about the extension of my period of detention, for 30 or

15 40 days, and then I went to trial, where they appointed Defence counsel

16 for me.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It seems that he

18 went there in December and later on several other times, but perhaps he

19 doesn't remember things very clearly.

20 We have another five minutes before the break, Mr. Withopf.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22 Q. The decisions, Witness XD, you received, did you receive them in

23 written?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you receive them in the course of your detention in the

1 former JNA barracks in Travnik?

2 A. Yes, but not the last one. Since there was an exchange, they

3 released me then, and I don't know what the outcome of everything was.

4 Q. Do you still recall the decisions?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And what were the decisions about?

7 A. Well, about extremist action, since I was an HVO member.

8 Q. And has there ever been a judgement following the trial?

9 A. No. I had to appoint a lawyer to go to Travnik to see what had

10 happened and what the outcome was. The lawyer brought me the judgement,

11 according to which I'd been granted amnesty. That's how this matter

12 ended.

13 Q. Witness XD, you were talking about Muslim ABiH soldiers detained

14 in the former JNA barracks for a number of reasons you detailed a few

15 minutes ago. Do you recall as to whether these detainees - the ABiH

16 soldier detainees - had to go to trial as well?

17 A. Yes, some of them did have to go.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, it's now almost 12.30.

19 I would suggest to take the break now. I anticipate finishing the

20 examination-in-chief within 20 or so minutes after the break.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's half past 12.00. We'll

22 have a break until five to 1.00. We will then resume at five to 1.00,

23 and we will continue until 1.45. I hope that the Defence will have the

24 time to proceed with its cross-examination.

25 Witness, we're going to have a 25-minute break now. You can have

1 a rest.

2 And we will resume in 25 minutes' time.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have three-quarters of an

6 hour to finish the examination-in-chief and to start the

7 cross-examination. We shall start with the examination-in-chief by the

8 Prosecution.

9 Are we in open session, Mr. Registrar?

10 Mr. Withopf, you have the floor.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12 Q. Witness XD, just before the break, you were informing the Trial

13 Chamber that some of the ABiH soldiers who were detained together with

14 you in the JNA barracks in Travnik had also to go to trial. What

15 happened to the ones who had not to go to trial?

16 A. Some volunteered to go into combat. Two went to Bucici. One of

17 them was killed there and the other one was wounded.

18 Q. Witness XD, do you have any knowledge about other Croats detained

19 together with you during this time period who were facing the same or

20 similar allegations as you were facing at the time?

21 A. No, not all of them did.

22 Q. Not all of them did. But were there some who actually did?

23 A. Yes, there were.

24 Q. Witness XD, I'm now going to ask you a question. Will you please

25 for the time being only say yes or no. Do you know the names of the

1 other Croat detainees who faced the same allegations as you did?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to go into private

4 session, please.

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.

20 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you now have the

23 floor.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, if I could use this opportunity -- we

25 now got the copies of the photographs -- to actually tender these

1 photographs in order to formally conclude the examination-in-chief.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is going to take a few

3 minutes, because the photographs had -- have to be marked, the witness

4 has to put his name on the photos. It will take some time.

5 Madam Usher, can you please give the two photos to the witness.

6 Witness, you're going to put your name and the date of birth on

7 these photos. We are going to do it in private session, please.

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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are back in open session.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to complete my

12 cross-examination in the time that you have given me. But just for the

13 record, I would like to state that the Prosecution had an hour for this

14 witness.

15 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. XD. My name is Edina

17 Residovic. I am Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. I'm going

18 to ask you to answer a few questions. I --

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to go back into

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will turn to

1 the Prosecution. Could you confirm that we will have one or several

2 witnesses tomorrow, and can you tell us whether there are any

3 difficulties or not and whether or not this witness has arrived.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, we have one -- we will have one

5 witness tomorrow and we will have two witnesses on Friday.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will have one

7 witness tomorrow, and on Friday we will have two witnesses.

8 Are there any comments that the Defence would like to make before

9 we adjourn? No comments? No comments from the Prosecution either?

10 So as we have covered everything today, we will adjourn, and I

11 will see you all tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

14 January, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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