1 Wednesday, 28 January 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Could
10 we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
12 Your Honours. Good afternoon, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla
13 Benjamin and Ekkehard Withopf. We will be joined by the case manager,
14 Kimberly Fleming.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 And the appearances for the Defence, please.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good
18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic,
19 counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna Milanovic, our legal
20 assistant. Thank you.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.
22 Mr. Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our legal assistant,
23 Mr. Mulalic.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 The Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone present, the
1 Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and everyone who ensures that
2 these proceedings run smoothly.
3 We'll be hearing a witness today, but before we commence with the
4 examination, there are a few issues that we should deal with before.
5 First of all, as you are aware, the Trial Chamber has rendered a
6 decision with regard to modifying the list of witnesses and exhibits. As
7 far as I can remember, in this decision I indicated that the Trial
8 Chamber would take a separate decision with regard to the expert
9 witness's report, General Reinhardt. This concerned document 108 which
10 was included in the Prosecution's list. Document exhibit 108 followed on
11 107 documents which were provided to General Reinhardt so he could use
12 them when preparing his report.
13 There is a difficulty that remains if the Trial Chamber is to
14 render a decision with regard to document 108, and this concerns an
15 ambiguity with regard to the report of General Reinhardt. In a paragraph
16 -- I think it's paragraph 2 -- it is indicated that he received
17 additional documents from the Prosecution. Do these additional
18 documents -- are they included in the 107 documents that were provided to
19 him, or are these additional documents not included among the 107
20 documents? I would appreciate it if the Prosecution could inform me of
21 whether all the documents provided to General Reinhardt are the 107
22 documents listed and whether the paragraph that relates to the document
23 and concerns additional documents. Could I be told whether these
24 additional documents are in fact an integral part of the 107 documents
25 provided to him.
1 Perhaps the Prosecution cannot answer me immediately, but this is
2 my question and I would like to have a response as soon as possible
3 before we hand down our decision concerning document 108.
4 The second issue has to do with documents that were on stand-by
5 yesterday and were given a number for -- were marked for identification.
6 Could the Prosecution tell me what they have to say about the documents
7 which were put forward by the Defence yesterday and that were marked for
8 identification. Are there any objections that the Prosecution would like
9 to raise today?
10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, after we got forwarded
11 the one document we asked the Defence for Mr. Kubura for, we have no
12 objections to raise.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there are no objections.
14 Could Mr. Registrar give me all the documents that were marked
15 for identification so that we can give these documents a definitive
16 number today -- definitive numbers today.
16 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's a pity that we don't have
18 a red and green light in the courtroom to indicate whether we're in open
19 session or in private session. It would make it easier to follow the
20 proceedings. It's an idea that I'm suggesting to the registrar.
21 Naturally, it's marked on the screen, but then we have to have a look at
22 the screen, at the computer screen. If we had a light in front of us, it
23 would be a lot simpler, as is the case when there's a radio or
24 television broadcast there is an indication saying when one is on air.
25 That would have made things a lot simpler.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Can you
3 hear what I am saying interpreted into your language?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been called here as a
6 witness for the Prosecution. You'll be testifying before this Tribunal.
7 I must first ask you what your first and last name are.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nenad Bogeljic.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you born?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 3rd of August, 1963.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your place of birth?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kakanj, in the Republic of Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current address?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Odranska 4, Sisak, in Croatia.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a telecommunications engineer
18 and I work for the Croatian telecommunications centre.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As you're going to
20 be examined here, you're going to testify as a witness, but you must
21 first take the solemn declaration that the usher will show you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: NENAD BOGELJIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
2 Witness, as I have said, you'll be testifying before this
3 Chamber. The Prosecution will ask you some questions; they are to your
4 right. After the Prosecution have concluded its examination, Defence
5 counsel for the accused, who are to your left, will also ask you some
6 questions. The Judges, who are before you, may at any time ask you
7 questions in order to clarify issues that require clarification. I would
8 be grateful if you could answer the questions as extensively as possible.
9 If there are any questions that you do not understand, ask the person
10 putting the question to you to rephrase it.
11 I would also like to inform you that as you have taken the solemn
12 declaration and you have sworn to tell the truth, you must not give false
13 testimony. If you do, proceedings may be instituted against you for
14 false testimony. And if within the framework of your testimony -- if
15 while testifying there might be something you could say that could
16 incriminate you for some crime, you should inform me of this so that we
17 can guarantee or so that we can assure you that what you say cannot be
18 used against you.
19 Have you understood everything I have told you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now ask the
22 Prosecution to start their examination-in-chief.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
24 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bogeljic.
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, you just informed the Trial Chamber that you were
3 born in Kakanj. Can you please also inform us where you grew up.
4 A. In Kakanj.
5 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Bogeljic, when you joined the JNA?
6 And if so, from when to when?
7 A. From the 6th of October, 1983, until September/October 1994. I
8 don't know the exact date.
9 Q. There is written in the transcript "September/October 1994."
10 Mr. Bogeljic, can you please clarify this. Was it 1994 or 1984?
11 A. No, no, 1984. 1984. It's a mistake.
12 Q. Thank you. In 1992, where did you work?
13 A. Yes. I was living in Kakanj, but I worked in Zenica.
14 Q. And since when did you work in Zenica?
15 A. I started working after I'd finished my schooling. I graduated
16 in May or June -- in May, and I started working on the 29th of December,
17 1986, in Zenica for the PTT, the post office.
18 Q. Are you married, Mr. Bogeljic?
19 A. Yes, I am.
20 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the ethnic
21 background of your wife.
22 A. She is a Serb.
23 Q. And what's your ethnic background?
24 A. I'm a Croat.
25 Q. In 1992 in Zenica, how would you describe the relation between
1 the Muslims and the Croats in Zenica in 1992 and in early 1993?
2 A. Well, everything was different from what it was like in 1989.
3 There was some sort of confrontations. The JNA arrived in Zenica. They
4 came from Slovenia and Croatia; that is to say, they came from Karlovac.
5 The Serbs went to the barracks. The Muslims and Croats were together
6 then. There were no problems of any kind.
7 In 1992, these confrontations started. There were problems
8 concerning weapons, as far as I could tell. Various armies were formed
9 and so on. Until 1993, I personally didn't have any problems. I went to
10 work as usual until March 1993.
11 Q. Would you please stop there.
12 A. That's when it started --
13 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, you were referring that in 1992 these
14 confrontations started. Which confrontations are you referring to?
15 Confrontations between who?
16 A. Well, between the HVO - they were on one side - and various
17 forces, various Bosniak forces. At the time, the BH Army hadn't been
18 organised. There was the Territorial Defence and some sort of Muslim
19 league that had been formed in Kakanj. There were the Green Berets.
20 There were a number of formations. And then gradually there was
21 increasing intolerance among the people. Not among the ordinary people.
22 Someone provoked this. But things became very tense in Bosnia. We say
23 it was like a pressure cooker.
24 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Bogeljic, when you noticed foreigners
25 in the area of Zenica?
1 A. Yes. I worked in the Zenica TK centre. That's what it was
2 called then, and it's still called the same now. And it was the PTT, but
3 I was an engineer, so I worked in the part that had to do with
4 telecommunications. And I would travel from Kakanj to work in Zenica on
5 a daily basis. And from 1993 and perhaps even 1992, but from 1993 for
6 sure, I would frequently see people who couldn't speak our language, the
7 language that's spoken in Bosnia. They would travel around by bus, and
8 quite a lot of them could even speak our language quite well. But
9 everyone in my company were aware of this fact, the people who were with
10 me on a daily basis. They were aware of the fact that these people were
11 from Arab countries.
12 Q. These people from Arab countries, did they wear uniforms?
13 A. Those that I saw - because the bus was going from Zenica towards
14 Visoko, and I got off at Kakanj, not every day but occasionally - I would
15 see them wearing green wind jackets. It wasn't the traditional standard
16 uniform, but I could see that they spoke differently and they had a
17 different colour of their skin, though there are some people in our own
18 country in Bosnia who are dark. But they wear shorter hair. I didn't
19 communicate with them, but I would see them often at the bus stop or in
20 the bus. I had no problems with them, I personally. They were simply
21 travelling by bus like all the rest of us. They weren't causing any
22 problems then.
23 Q. These people you are referring to, were they armed?
24 A. As far as I was able to see, they didn't carry long barrels. I
25 remember one man, whom I saw several times -- as I was saying, I commuted
1 every day until March 1993 -- he was quite short. And once I saw that he
2 had a pistol under his jacket. But I never saw long-barrelled weapons on
4 Q. Were there any other such individuals from Arab countries which
5 had any weapons?
6 A. Well, around town in 1993 one could come across them, but I saw
7 people in the bus. However, my friends who worked with me - and I talked
8 to them on a daily basis - they told me that they had a camp somewhere at
9 Vjetrenice, a training camp. I never went there, so I didn't see it
10 during the conflict. I did before, because I used to work in telecom and
11 then I travelled all over Bosnia.
12 Q. Did you get to know about a further location where these Arabs
13 from foreign countries were based at the time?
14 A. I also heard that there was a camp at Rostovo. My cousin was
15 killed there.
16 Q. And are you aware, Mr. Bogeljic, whether the Arabs from foreign
17 countries were also based in Zenica?
18 A. I heard - I didn't see this; that's a fact - that there were some
19 at the music school. People were talking about that. I would move
20 around Zenica, but I can't claim that there were people there. What I do
21 know for certain is what I saw, and I saw them in the bus and at the bus
22 stop and that these were persons definitely from other countries. Now,
23 how numerous they were, I don't know.
24 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Bogeljic, as to when roughly you for the first
25 time got to know that the foreigners from Arab countries were at the
1 Zenica Music School?
2 A. I'm not sure about that, but sometime in 1993.
3 Q. Was it more at the beginning of 1993 or more in the middle or
4 more towards the end?
5 A. At the beginning of 1993.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will have to
7 object. The witness, in answer to several questions from the Prosecutor,
8 said that he only heard from others, that others had told him, that he
9 himself never saw such things. And in spite of such an answer by the
10 witness, the Prosecutor repeatedly is asking about what the witness
11 heard, though he didn't lay the ground for putting hearsay questions to
12 the witness. So could the Prosecutor be cautioned that he cannot
13 continue this line of questioning.
14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I disagree with the
15 objection made by my learned colleague. Hearsay evidence is admissible;
16 it's only an issue about the evidentiary value and the weight of the
17 evidence. The witness has said that he got to know from friends about
18 these facts. I laid the ground to ask the questions which I asked,
19 namely, as to when and from whom he got to know and at what point in
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the facts recounted
22 by the witness on the basis of hearsay, it needs to be specified how he
23 gathered that information, at what point in time, and who told him. As
24 you both know, the facts conveyed on the basis of hearsay are admissible,
25 but on condition that we know exactly the context and the source. We
1 cannot accept hearsay evidence without any basis, any groundwork.
2 So if, Witness, you were told that these foreigners arrived on
3 such-and-such a date, you have to tell us who told you, when, and under
4 what circumstances so that we can appreciate the value of what you're
5 telling us.
6 I give the floor to the Prosecutor to try and clarify this point
7 which has been objected to by the Defence.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President. And that was
9 exactly what I was trying to do prior to my learned colleague making her
11 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber as from
12 whom you got to know that Arabs from foreign countries were in the Zenica
13 Music School.
14 A. As I was saying, I went to work every day. And in Zenica in my
15 company there were quite a number of Muslims working there -- or let me
16 correct myself, Bosniaks. Zenica had a majority Bosniak population, but
17 there were a large number of Croats and Serbs and we were working
18 together. And then somebody would be living close to the music school
19 and he would say that he saw these people entering, but I can't tell you
20 the name of that person. But everyone in Zenica knew it.
21 Q. You just said prior to the objection of my learned colleague that
22 you got to learn about foreigners from Arab countries in the Zenica Music
23 School in early 1993. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to --
24 as from whom you got to know this.
25 A. At work we spoke about this. All I can say is the names of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 people working with me, but I can't tell you exactly which one of them
2 told me this. People were walking around Zenica. They lived in various
3 parts of Zenica. They lived in Tetovo, where the camps were. Then in
4 the music school people were detained and they said that they saw people
5 there. But I didn't go there. I can't say that I saw it. But I did
6 hear about it.
7 Q. Moving on, Mr. Bogeljic, to Kakanj. Can you please describe for
8 the information of the Trial Chamber the situation in the second half of
9 1992 and in early 1993 in Kakanj.
10 A. It is very hard for me to remember all these things because it
11 was a long time ago, but I shall try to summarise everything.
12 As regards life in Kakanj municipality itself, I think that the
13 conflicts spread to Kakanj very late. I think that the coexistence
14 between us Croats and Bosniaks in Kakanj was always very good and we
15 never had any problems or conflicts between us and the Bosniaks. There
16 were far fewer Serbs. The Bosniaks and Croats constituted about half the
17 population. There was 50/50 per cent. There are many mixed marriages in
18 Kakanj. My mother [as interpreted] is married to a Bosniak; I am married
19 to a Serb. And before we had absolutely no problems, until politics
20 gained the upper hand. And then what happened -- we all know happened,
21 contrary to what we needed. We all know that now.
22 The conflict started in such a way that both on the Bosniak and
23 on the Croatian side - at least, that is my opinion - people came to
24 power in the municipality and in the army, people who shouldn't have been
25 there, who shouldn't have held those positions. Those conflicts could
1 easily have spared Kakanj. On the Bosnian side --
2 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, may I please stop you there. In early 1993, can
3 you please inform the Trial Chamber which military units of which armies
4 were based in Kakanj.
5 A. On the Croatian side -- or rather, the Croatian people had a
6 component known as the HVO. There had been attempts to form something
7 called HOS in Kakanj, but it never succeeded. Similarly, on the Bosniak
8 side at first there was this green legion, then the Green Berets, then of
9 course the Territorial Defence, which was the first. However, we Croats
10 did not fear the Territorial Defence. One of my friends who studied with
11 me was one of the commanders, and he helped me leave Kakanj.
12 However, then this 7th Muslim came to Kakanj. I don't wish to
13 say that they are the only ones to blame. I think that everyone is to
14 blame and that this shouldn't have happened at all, but that's how it
16 Q. The 7th Muslim Brigade, when did they come to Kakanj?
17 A. I am unable to tell you exactly because I don't know. I was
18 never a soldier. I was not interested in politics, but my wife has a
19 house very close to the motel and her whole family lives close to the
20 motel. And all the Bosniaks living near the motel know me and I know
21 them. And I know that the Croatian component in the municipality did not
22 agree with the accommodation of that unit at the motel. I heard this
23 from people who were in the authorities, who were involved in politics.
24 But this could have been at the beginning of 1993.
25 Q. Witness, are you aware whether at the beginning of 1993 a
1 military unit was based in the building which is known as the Motel
3 A. Yes. A battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade. I know that for
4 certain, because I myself had some problems with them, some
6 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown via Sanction the
7 Prosecution Exhibit P10.
8 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform us what you can see on the
9 photograph in front of you on the screen.
10 A. It is the Sretno Motel.
11 Q. Is this the Motel Sretno in which at the beginning of 1993 the
12 7th Muslim Brigade was based?
13 A. Yes, it is. Yes.
14 Q. And, Mr. Bogeljic, how did you get to know that it was the
15 7th Muslim Brigade?
16 A. Everyone in Kakanj knew it. We saw them. We saw soldiers with
17 the insignia, various insignia. There were some with various patches.
18 But anyway, my wife and myself went to the railway station when I was
19 going by bus or by train - though I mostly took the bus because I lived
20 in a part of town that is a little further away from the railway station,
21 so it was more difficult for me to go there - but we would see them on a
22 daily basis. We saw them disarming the Serb population there, because
23 the Serbs had weapons they had received from the SDS. They even offered
24 my father-in-law a weapon, which I found difficult to understand.
25 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, you're referring to various military insignia. Can
1 you please describe for the benefit of the Trial Chamber how these
2 insignia looked like.
3 A. So many years after the events, I have forgotten many things.
4 But some things are still imprinted in one's mind. I saw insignia with
5 some Arabic letters and some sort of a sword like those from Turkish
6 times, from Ottoman times. Others had on their sleeves "Allah-U-Ekber,"
7 a crescent and a star. Some wore bandannas and the men who took me in
8 had these bandannas with Arabic letters on them. So it is difficult to
9 remember all the details, but there is no doubt that a battalion of the
10 7th Muslim Brigade was there. There's no doubt about that at all.
11 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, I'm now going to show you a photo board with a
12 number of military insignia.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown the Prosecution
14 Exhibit P4 via the Sanction technology.
15 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, you have in front of you a photo board with a
16 number of military insignia. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber
17 which one or which ones, if any, you have seen in the context of the
18 7th Muslim Brigade in the Motel Sretno in 1993. If you please could make
19 reference to the number of the respective photo board -- insignia.
20 A. Should I just tell you what I saw at the Sretno Motel or all the
21 insignia I ever saw?
22 Q. The ones you've seen at the Motel Sretno.
23 A. Number 1 I think I saw. I also think I saw number 24, and
24 numbers 9 and 12. Number 9 I saw, I think -- I think that the patch
25 under number 9 was placed later, when the 7th Muslim Brigade was
1 integrated within the BH Army and came under its command, whereas the
2 patch under number 12 was worn by the regular troops of the Army of
3 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Whereas members of the 7th Muslim Brigade also
4 wore the army patch, but later on when they came under their command. I
5 think that's how it was.
6 There were different patches. Most of these are familiar, except
7 for the Serb ones, because you couldn't see them in our parts of the
8 country. But most of the others, yes.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bogeljic. Moving on to a different subject. Did
10 you, Mr. Bogeljic, ever join the HVO or did you ever work for the HVO?
11 A. In March 1993, it was very awkward, all these events happening in
12 Central Bosnia. In one town, the Bosniaks were the victims; in another,
13 the Croats. As it was difficult for the Bosniaks in towns with a
14 majority Croat population, so it was difficult for us in the other -- in
15 the opposite situation. And various brigades were formed. I saw in
16 Zenica, in Radakovo, when brigades were being formed lined up. There
17 were very many troops in towns. People were victimised, and we too were
18 exposed to such danger.
19 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, please listen very carefully to the questions. The
20 question was: Did you ever join the HVO or did you ever support the HVO?
21 A. I was going to go on and tell you that when you interrupted me.
22 In 1993 -- I can even tell you the exact date when I realised that my
23 safety was no longer secure in Zenica. Everyone felt the same, and I
24 simply asked my manager and told him that I would leave, because one of
25 my colleagues, who was working with me, said that I was tapping some
1 conversations, which was absolutely untrue. My superior said that he
2 didn't believe it, but I said that I wouldn't stay on.
3 I think sometime in mid-March I stopped working, and I worked in
4 the HVO. I wasn't a soldier. I wasn't armed. I was simply there as a
5 technical person who had some knowledge of mobile telephones. And the
6 inhabitants of Kakanj know this: I installed with the help of a
7 colleague of mine a couple of mobile NMT-technology devices. This is
8 analogous mobile telephones, and we install them in several places for
9 communication purposes. Everyone used these facilities, both Bosniak,
10 Croats, and Serbs, all the inhabitants of Kakanj.
11 Q. Just for clarification, did you ever wear an HVO uniform during
12 this time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Bogeljic, when you have been arrested?
15 A. I don't know how to tell you about this. I was physically taken
16 away from my family. I was deprived of my liberty. Now, whether that is
17 an arrest -- for me, an arrest, when you're accused of something and
18 you're taken away by the police. But this was under force of arms. A
19 man was standing there, threatening to throw a grenade at my
20 mother-in-law when they took me in and took me away.
21 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to when this
22 happened. Do you recall the exact date?
23 A. I remember. Of course I remember. On the 18th of May, 1993, I
24 think it was about half past 4.00. Members of the army - that is, the
25 7th Muslim Brigade - that were in the motel came and they were arresting
1 people who were in the houses around the motel and the settlement of
2 Povezice. I just happened to be there. I was in the neighbourhood
3 visiting my cousin who was in a Serb house. The brother of the man who
4 had abandoned the house gave her the keys to live there, and this was
5 near the railway station. And by chance I went back to fetch some
6 cigarettes. I was still smoking at the time. And my mother-in-law waved
7 her hand to tell me to get away, but I didn't understand what she meant
8 and I came in. And I saw soldiers there. They had -- told me they had a
9 search warrant. I didn't take it seriously. I said, "What for? What do
10 you mean?" And they said that they had information that my father-in-law
11 had some weapons in his house and some money. The house had already been
12 searched, and everything was scattered all over the place. They didn't
13 say anything nasty to me, except that they had their rifles at the ready.
14 And they told me that they hadn't found anything in the house, and then
15 they left.
16 Ten minutes later I went to fetch my wife to clean up the mess.
17 They came back, however, four or five of them. One stood to the side.
18 My mother-in-law was not very mobile. She pointed a gun at her [as
19 interpreted]. And he said if she moves he would shoot. And then they
20 opened the garage. I think somebody must have sent a report. Apparently
21 they wanted to search the garage and the cars. I wasn't watching.
22 Someone came out -- one of them came out and said that he had found a box
23 with bullets, and he asked me where the rifle was. I said I knew nothing
24 about a rifle. I was never a soldier except in the former JNA. And then
25 some insults were hurled at me. One swore my Serb mother. I said I
1 wasn't a Serb. Then he said, "That's even worse." He cursed my Ustasha
3 These were people I didn't know. They had come from somewhere
4 else, maybe from the surrounding villages or something like that. I
5 didn't know them. That's all.
6 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, may I stop you there, please. Once you have been
7 arrested by members of the 7th Muslim Brigade on the 18th of May, 1993,
8 where were you brought to?
9 A. They took me to the Sretno Motel.
10 Q. Once you arrived at the Motel Sretno, where in the Motel Sretno
11 were you brought to?
12 A. I don't remember the Motel Sretno very well now, but I entered
13 the motel. That's the place where they would celebrate the new year and
14 other festive occasions, marriages, et cetera; weddings, et cetera. So I
15 know what it looks like.
16 They took me in. You have the reception to the right; to the
17 left, there is a restaurant or a hall of some kind; when you go straight
18 ahead, there is a cloakroom. When they took me in, there were some
19 troops. I don't know exactly. There was confusion. Insults were hurled
20 around. I was pushed around. No one asked me about weapons any more.
21 All they wanted was money.
22 Q. The troops you'd seen in the reception area, which military unit
23 did they belong to?
24 A. I think they were all members of the 7th Muslim. To be quite
25 frank and precise, when I answered the motel I knew what to expect. I
1 didn't even pay attention to details. I tried to defend myself. I said
2 I worked in the TK centre in Zenica. I said I'd helped a lot with the
3 communications for the BH Army. And then they asked me, "Are you helping
4 the Muslims?" So there was nothing you could say to defend yourself.
5 Q. From the reception area, where were you brought to afterwards?
6 A. They took me outside. They said they'd kill me if I didn't tell
7 them where the money was. I didn't know what money they were referring
8 to. I had something in my wallet, and my wife told these people who took
9 me away -- or, rather, I gave -- I handed my wallet over and she returned
10 it because they took everything that they found in the house, everything
11 that was of value. And then when I arrived there, I still had my wallet
12 on me. They took it, and I think they were about -- there were about
13 1.900 German marks in it. We had some savings and everything was kept in
14 one place. Naturally, they took that. They asked me if I had any over
15 money, and I said, "Leave me alone. I have some money in Catici," which
16 is where my parents live. "Let me go, and I will give you everything I
17 have." But naturally, they didn't release me.
18 Q. You were taken outside. After you were taken outside the Motel
19 Sretno, where to were you taken?
20 A. On the other side, to the flank, well, you have the main road
21 from Kakanj to Zenica there. It heads towards the crossroads. So on the
22 side there's an entrance down below. I'd never used it before. I'd used
23 the upper entrance. I'd passed by the reception and go to where we would
24 have coffee and socialise. But there is a warehouse down there and a
25 number of rooms. There is a large room that they took me to. And
1 opposite the motel there is a house. Local Muslims -- local Bosniaks
2 lived there. They knew me, and I know that one woman said, "Let the
3 young man go. I know him." His son had gone to secondary school with me
4 in Sarajevo. Not the same secondary school, but we'd travelling to. And
5 then one of the soldiers said, "Move or I'll kill you," and then they
6 took me inside.
7 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, I'm now going to show you a further photograph.
8 MR. WITHOPF: It will be a new photograph. It will be shown via
9 Sanction. And the Prosecution has the respective numbers of paper copies
10 available for the Defence and the Trial Chamber.
11 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, do you see the photograph on the screen in front of
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Is this the area -- or what can you actually see on this
16 A. From the upper side, where you have this container, the entrance
17 to the motel is 10 metres to the left, if I can see everything well.
18 They took me from there and took me into this room straight ahead. We
19 call this a sort of antechamber. There's a warehouse down there, and
20 there are a number of rooms there. I was in a number of them, so I can
21 remember this. But I remember this very well.
22 Q. Witness, can I please stop you there.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a black
25 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please mark on the paper copy of the
1 photograph where to you were brought on that day. Can you just mark the
2 entrance, please.
3 A. Can I do it with an arrow?
4 Q. You can mark it with an "X" or an arrow, whatever you prefer.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And can you please, Mr. Bogeljic, write "This is the entrance to
7 the area where I was brought to."
8 A. [Marks]
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps it should
10 be put on the ELMO, because we only have the Sanction image and we can't
11 see what the witness is pointing to. It would be good if we could
12 follow too.
13 MR. WITHOPF: All right.
14 Q. Witness, can you please tell us what you have written down on
15 this photograph.
16 A. "That's the entrance they took me to the building through on that
18 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please date and sign this photograph, sign
19 it with your name, please, and today is the 28th of January, 2004.
20 A. [Witness complies]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want to tender this into
22 evidence? Very well.
23 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, the Prosecution wishes to tender this into
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P50.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P50.
3 MR. WITHOPF:
4 Q. Very well. Mr. Bogeljic, I'm now going to show you a further
5 photograph. It's again a new photograph. We have the respective numbers
6 of hard copies available.
7 Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you
8 can see on the photograph in front of you.
9 A. That's the entrance into the building. The bags -- the sacks
10 that you can see inside, they weren't there at the time. I spent about
11 45 minutes in there. I was tortured for about 45 minutes. It was
12 terrible. I was beaten too.
13 Q. Mr. Bogeljic --
14 A. Behind the sacks, I can see --
15 Q. May I interrupt you there. Is this the entrance to the area
16 where you were brought to, the area of the Motel Sretno? And can you
17 please answer with either yes or no.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be provided with a hard
21 copy, and can the witness please sign it and date it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have an
24 exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P51.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much.
2 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, once you were brought to this area behind the
3 entrance door, the rear entrance door of the Motel Sretno, what did
4 happen to you?
5 A. Nothing very nice. It's difficult for me to remember all of
6 those events. I think it was about half past 4.00 when I arrived, and at
7 quarter to 5.00 - I remember this well - I entered this area. I know
8 that was the time because I had a watch on me which was broken when they
9 were beating me. I also had a gold chain, which I still have - it's a
10 souvenir - at one point in time this was broken off. It lasted from
11 quarter to 5.00 to half past 5.00, about 45 minutes, roughly speaking.
12 These are beatings which it's very difficult to support. They would beat
13 me with their rifles. They would kick me. They would beat me with
14 wooden planks, whatever they could get their hands on. There were four
15 or five of them. And this went on until, well, let's say, about half
16 past 5.00.
17 Can I continue?
18 Q. Would you please, prior to continuing, inform the Trial Chamber
19 who actually beat you.
20 A. The soldiers who were in the motel, in this unhappy hotel.
21 Q. And to what army did these soldiers belong to?
22 A. Well, they were the same people who had brought me there.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. The same people who had taken me to the motel.
25 Q. All right. Can you please continue in detailing the further
1 beatings, if any, that were inflicted to you.
2 A. As I have already said, the torture was terrible. During those
3 30 minutes, they broke several of my ribs. I know exactly what sort of
4 wounds, what sort of injuries I had after the torture. But when I went
5 into another room -- well, what I've been speaking about lasted for over
6 half an hour, 45 minutes. It's difficult to remember everything. It's
7 difficult to remember all of them. I didn't even see the people there.
8 They would just trample on you and hit you with their rifle butts. But
9 when someone brought a police truncheon, that was the worst part of it.
10 They would beat me with this truncheon on my back. I asked them not to
11 beat me in the area of my right kidney, but one of them who was beating
12 me said, "Just beat him in the area of his right kidney."
13 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber why you
14 asked the soldier to not beat you in the area of your right kidney.
15 A. Well, because I had certain problems with that right kidney, and
16 the problems I have with that kidney today are even worse.
17 Q. After these beatings with the different tools, were there any
18 further beatings inflicted on you in the course of that night?
19 A. Well, that beating didn't really stop. It would stop when they
20 became tired. They were beating me. They were beating me constantly.
21 They only took me from this room, which is here in the front -- there are
22 some stairs there. They put me on a chair there. And one of the men
23 said that I would be hit 20 times with some sort of a wooden plank. I
24 don't know what it was exactly. It's very difficult for me to describe
25 this item in precise terms. And the fear I felt just can't be described.
1 He said if I groaned, I'd be hit 50 times. Then the first time I was
2 hit, I fell back and I hit my head against the stairs. And I think I
3 lost consciousness for a moment.
4 Q. Do you recall what happened when you got back your consciousness?
5 A. There was something warm on my face. I think one of them
6 urinated on me. I still hadn't come to, not completely, you understand.
7 It's difficult for me to think back to all those events.
8 Q. Once or after this portion of the beatings stopped, were there
9 any further beatings in the course of that night inflicted on you?
10 A. As I've already said, the beating was almost continual. They
11 would stop when the people who were beating us became tired. If you're
12 beating someone with some sort of a big plank and your arms start aching
13 and if you have to hold a rifle which weighs a few kilograms, you get
14 tired. In this other room they continued to beat me. So this beating
15 lasted from, as I have said, quarter to 5.00, roughly speaking.
16 But at about ten to 7.00 I entered a third room, which is where
17 the other detainees where kept, in this other room. They said that they
18 would cut my throat. One of the soldiers brought some knives. He had a
19 long knife which resembled a kitchen knife. But there was another one
20 which was particular. It looked like those small Turkish knives. It was
21 curved. And something was written on it, on the handle. And then he
22 said, "Choose the knife you want us to cut your throat with." I said,
23 "Don't cut my throat." I begged the man. I said, "Shoot me. I can't
24 put up with this any more."
25 Q. Witness -- Witness, Mr. Bogeljic, this threat to kill you with a
1 knife, did you take it serious at that time?
2 A. Well, I took the entire situation very seriously all the time.
3 I'm a Catholic. I go to church. So at one point in time I started
4 praying to God because I thought it was all over. It's very difficult to
5 imagine what such a situation is like.
6 Q. A few minutes ago you were making reference that you were put in
7 a room where other detainees were in. Can you please inform us whether
8 there were other detainees, how many, and what their ethnic background
9 was, if you know.
10 A. Yes, I do know. It was May -- I have to say this. It was May,
11 and when I entered, it was very warm. I was only wearing a T-shirt and a
12 track-suit and training shoes. When I entered, because it was dark
13 inside, I couldn't see the people. But behind this next room, there is
14 some sort of a metal fence. And after the first and second room, they
15 would beat me there. I think that there is a toilet here, if I remember
16 it correctly. I crawled and they pulled me back by my legs.
17 After all those beatings, it was about 7.00, because I know that
18 when I entered I didn't have the watch any more. But I found my chain on
19 the floor later on and put it into my sock. That's why I still have it.
20 Then I entered the room to the left. There were people inside. But as I
21 had come in from the daylight and it was dark inside, I couldn't
22 recognise anyone. I asked what the time was, and they were all afraid,
23 so no one dared respond. They'd been listening to such screams or such
24 groans for an hour and a half that they were completely scared. They
25 didn't dare reply. Only after a while I recognised a number of people
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 who had studied with me in Sarajevo. I recognised -- can I mention any
2 names? Is it necessary?
3 Q. If you are feeling comfortable to do so, please go ahead.
4 A. Yes, I can. Afterwards, when all this had passed, I met three
5 persons whom I didn't know before. They were three persons from Ilijas.
6 I think the village is called Misoca. That's where the BH Army was
7 engaged in action against the Serbian troops. They had collected them
8 from houses up there, and in Povezice, which is a settlement near the
10 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, may I stop you there. The question was: How many
11 further detainees have you seen in the Motel Sretno. Can you please give
12 us a --
13 A. Yes. Yes. There were 16 of us in total. I was the fifteenth
14 person who entered the room, in which there were 14 people at the time.
15 A sixteenth person was brought in later, at about half past 7.00 or 8.00.
16 That's when the last person arrived. If this is important - I don't know
17 if it is - 12 of them were Croats and 4 of them were Serbs.
18 Q. Very well. These other detainees, were they soldiers or were
19 they civilians?
20 A. As far as I know, one of them - I don't know the person's name -
21 he even had some sort of a card to show that he was a -- that he had been
22 a member of the Territorial Defence. He said that that might help him,
23 but it didn't. All the others were civilians, as far as I know. I know
24 some of the people because they had studied with me.
25 Q. These other detainees, were they also beaten in the course of
1 that night?
2 A. Everyone was beaten in the course of that night. No one was
3 spared the beatings. When they shoved me into that room, they didn't
4 touch them. After I had entered the room, they called out and said,
5 "Where is that person who has the red car?" I was sitting at the back,
6 and I didn't want to come forward. They said, "if they come to fetch
7 you, it will be even worse." Then I approached that metal fence, and
8 they said that I should put my head through the bars and then they
9 started beating me over the head with a wooden plank. They did that a
10 couple of times. And then after that, they started beating everyone
12 I asked the people if anyone had beaten them, and they said that
13 up until that time no one had.
14 Q. The other detainees, were they beaten to the same or to a similar
15 extent as you have been beaten?
16 A. Well, the beating I was given was the worst. But in a certain
17 sense others received more severe beatings. But everyone was beaten.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I think that's the right point in
19 time to have the break.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's 3.45. We'll
21 have a 25-minute break, and we will resume at ten past 4.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, please continue.
25 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, in the course of the night you have been detained
2 in the Motel Sretno, did anybody make you say, sing, or shout something?
3 A. Yes, they did.
4 Q. And what were you requested to say, sing, or shout?
5 A. After the torture that I have already described, I think some new
6 people arrived who -- or one of them I remember very well his nickname.
7 He said his name was Geler, and he said, "When I say 'Tekbir', all of you
8 must as one voice say 'Allah-U-Ekber'." We didn't quite understand, and
9 then they came in and said they would beat us even harder if we don't say
10 that. And then they beat us, and then we repeated after them
11 "Allah-U-Ekber," and it went on like that.
12 This nickname that I mentioned, Geler, he had on his feet Adidas
13 sports shoes like those worn by the police, and he said to me, "Look,
14 this is Zivko Totic's shoes. Say hello to Dario Kordic and Tudjman and
15 tell them Geler and still alive." I had no connection with either of
16 them, so I didn't know what he meant. Then the beatings continued.
17 Every 15 minutes they would come inside and beat each and every one of
18 us. After 15 minutes, they would come back again and start beating
20 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, did there come a time when the beating actually
22 A. Yes. I think the beating stopped after 3.00 a.m., because I
23 think about 3.30 or 4.00 - I'm not quite sure about the time - an officer
24 came in. He was wearing a uniform, and he said what his name was but I
25 can't remember it. He said that all this was a misunderstanding, that it
1 was a mistake that we were there. He asked whether anyone had beaten us.
2 We couldn't stand on our feet, and it was quite obvious what had
4 Q. Were your injuries at this point in time, were they visible?
5 A. Horribly visible.
6 Q. And, Mr. Bogeljic, how did you get to know that this individual
7 has been an officer?
8 A. Well, a man with any intelligence can distinguish between a foot
9 soldier and an officer. He himself said he was an officer. As I say, I
10 can't remember his name; it was more than ten years ago. He was 46 or
11 47. Let's say he was some sort of a lieutenant or something like that.
12 Q. Right. And were you finally released?
13 A. Yes, we were.
14 I would just like to point out something: Among those men who
15 were there, there was a man. I later learnt he was also a soldier. I
16 don't know his name. But he came from a village called Trsce, close to
17 Kakanj. That man assisted us a lot. He brought us water and cigarettes.
18 And they gave us dates to eat. And he told us why we were being held
19 there. I didn't really know why they were keeping us there.
20 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, once you were released, what injuries did you have,
21 injuries which resulted from the beatings inflicted on you in the Motel
22 Sretno during that night?
23 A. That day, with some of the men we went to the health centre in
24 Kakanj. To be quite honest, I was afraid to go there, because I think it
25 was my brother who was living in Kakanj and whose wife is a Bosniak. I
1 think they took us to see a doctor and they x-rayed me. I had six broken
2 ribs, both my kidneys had been moved. I had knife wounds in two places,
3 a haematoma on my kidney, which is now 4 centimetres in size. And three
4 months later I reached Croatia. I was in hospital. And then they
5 discovered that my spine had been damaged too.
6 Q. Did there come a time when your and the other detainees' injuries
7 were videotaped?
8 A. Yes. A day later. I think we left the motel on the 19th. On
9 the 20th, I went to the health centre in Kakanj. And then I ended up in
10 Haljinici, another village, where the HVO was in control. They held
11 that part of the territory. And there was a health centre there with two
12 doctors. One was Serb and the other was a Croat. They were married to
13 Croats. And then a man came who used to be president of the federation,
14 Niko Lozancic. He was a police inspector and he asked whether we would
15 allow photographs to be taken. People were afraid. I personally, I have
16 family. But nevertheless I said okay. And then this was videotaped.
17 Q. For clarification, was it the day after the release?
18 A. I was released 24 hours after being taken there, and this was on
19 the 20th. So yes, the day after my release, in the afternoon.
20 Q. Were there any further victims and the injuries of any further
21 victims videotaped?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were they videotaped on the very same day as your injuries were
25 A. We were all in that health centre at Haljinici on the same day.
1 So I think that most were videotaped, except that some didn't want to
2 show their face.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm now going to show
4 a video sequence. This material Defence counsel have been provided with
5 as part of the Prosecution exhibits on the 10th of October last year.
6 I will show a sequence of four different videos, and I would like to
7 witness to comment on these videos. I will show it via the Sanction
8 technology and CDs with the videos on it will be provided in the course
9 of today's session to the registry and to the Trial Chamber.
10 Q. Witness, there will be now a video footage -- video footage
11 appear on the screen. Can you please carefully have a look at it. Once
12 it's finished, I will ask you a few questions.
13 A. That's fine.
14 [Videotape played]
15 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber who one can
16 see on this videotape -- on this video footage.
17 A. That is the last man who came to the motel that night. He came
18 after the rest of us. He's from Ilijas. I knew his name. He's from
19 Misoca, a Croat village. They were chased out by the Serbs and he came
20 to Kakanj.
21 Q. I'm now going to show you, Mr. Bogeljic, a further portion of
22 video footage.
23 [Videotape played]
24 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber whom one
25 can see on this video footage.
1 A. I think it is the man who said that he was a member of the TO in
2 Misoca. Anyway, that he had fought on the side of the Army of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina. So he's not a man from Kakanj.
4 Q. For clarification, has this individual been with you in the Motel
5 Sretno during the night of the 18th to the 19th of May, 1993?
6 A. Yes. Yes, he was.
7 Q. Has this person been beaten during the night he spent in the
8 Motel Sretno?
9 A. I've already said so. They were all beaten. He's one of the
10 sixteen who was there.
11 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, I'm now going to show you a third portion of video
13 [Videotape played]
14 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber whom one
15 can see on this portion of the video footage.
16 A. That man was also with me. I don't know his name. I don't know
17 whether he's from Kakanj, but I think he was from Kakanj.
18 Q. For clarification, he was with you --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. WITHOPF: My apologies.
21 Q. For clarification, "he was with you." Does that mean he was with
22 you in the Motel Sretno during the night from the 18th May 1993 to the
23 19th May 1993?
24 A. Yes, he was with me.
25 Q. And do you know whether this person has been beaten during this
1 very same night?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, I'm now going to show you a fourth portion of video
5 [Videotape played]
6 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber who the
7 person on this video footage is.
8 A. That was me.
9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, once the CDs are
10 available, the Prosecution wishes to tender this video footage into
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The CDs will be ready when?
13 MR. WITHOPF: To my knowledge, the CDs will be ready in the
14 course of the today's court proceedings.
15 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, the injuries one can see on this video footage, the
16 injuries on your body, are these injuries the result of the beatings
17 inflicted on you in the Motel Sretno?
18 A. All of them are the result of the beatings. All this happened at
19 the Sretno Motel during a period of 20-odd hours. Only what we see on
20 this videotape is nothing like what it really looked like in reality. It
21 was much worse. That's me, only I had hair in those days.
22 Q. Other than showing your injuries to the people who took the
23 video, did you at any occasion show your injuries to somebody else?
24 A. I did. That day, when I came out of the motel, I went to a house
25 across the road from the motel, about 100, 150 metres away. My wife's
1 parents lived there. We went there because my wife was there, who
2 thought I was no longer among the living. And then we went to my
3 parents' place. They live in a village close to Kakanj called Catici.
4 And then a couple of hours later - I can't remember exactly - Pavo
5 Sljivic came, who was the HVO commander in Kakanj. I think it was him.
6 I can't remember exactly. There may have been a couple of men with him.
7 And then he asked me whether I would go with him to show this to a
8 colonel, because there was a meeting between the BH Army and the HVO to
9 calm down tensions, because the conflicts hadn't really started yet. I
10 didn't really feel like going, but I went nevertheless, and we went to a
11 meeting attended by representatives of the BH Army and the HVO and this
12 colonel, whom I met later on, subsequently.
13 Shall I continue?
14 Q. Yes, please. Carry on.
15 A. I entered. On one side there were three men seated. They were
16 wearing camouflage uniforms. And then at the head of the table was the
17 French colonel and an officer next to him and an interpreter. And on the
18 other side, if I remember well - I don't know who exactly - but anyway,
19 representatives of the HVO.
20 Then Pavo Sljivic, who was the commander - I remember that well,
21 because I don't know the other people who were there - it was a long time
22 ago, anyway. But I do know he said, "Look, yesterday you killed one of
23 our men and now sixteen men have almost been beaten to death." He
24 mentioned a name. When he was speaking, he said, "Kubura, look what your
25 men are doing. And we are negotiating a truce and covering up our
1 trenches." I remember that well. I didn't know anyone inside. That is
2 what I can say. But this I remember very well, nevertheless.
3 Q. In the course of this meeting, have you been asked to do
5 A. Yes. I don't remember exactly when somebody said something to
6 the effect, "Well, he's fine. Nothing's wrong with him." They had
7 started treating me, putting something -- an ointment on my back,
8 and - we had washed, of course - but I took off my T-shirt. And I
9 remember very well that there was a young woman from Kakanj. She was the
10 interpreter. And I know the woman turned her head away she was so
11 horrified with what she saw. After that, we left. My wife was waiting
12 in the corridor.
13 Q. Once your took off your T-shirt in the course of this meeting,
14 were your injuries visible to the same extent we just have seen on the
15 video footage?
16 A. Yes, maybe they were even more pronounced.
17 Q. Was this individual which has been addressed by the HVO commander
18 Pavo Sljivic with the name "Kubura" and with the sentence, "Kubura, look
19 what your men are doing," has this individual seen the injuries in the
20 course of this meeting once you took off your shirt?
21 A. Of course. Everyone saw it. They were all inside.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, please allow me to check the
24 Q. This individual --
25 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
1 Q. This individual which has been addressed with the name of Kubura,
2 was he an ordinary soldier or was he an officer?
3 A. I can't say with certainty. There were three men sitting there.
4 They were in uniform. Now, whether he was an officer or not -- because
5 they were all seated when we walked in. And when I took off my T-shirt,
6 I remember that Pavo Sljivic was shouting and he mentioned this name.
7 That's all I remember. But the face, I'm afraid it is very difficult for
8 me to say who was there.
9 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, after all these events, did you ever go back to
11 A. I go to Kakanj every year at least a couple of times. I was
12 there two or three months ago. I have many friends there, people I used
13 to work with. They come and see me. We meet on the seaside. We
14 communicate daily by telephone.
15 Q. Does this mean you are since then not any more living in Kakanj?
16 A. That is right. In October 1993, I left Bosnia and Herzegovina,
17 as my wife is a Serb. We left via Vares. In Vares, there were some
18 people through which you could leave. Even my brother left, whose wife
19 is a Bosniak. He also left through the so-called Republika Srpska. I
20 went to Belgrade, via Belgrade to Hungary, to the airport. And since my
21 son's passport had expired, we had to go to Germany. I have a sister and
22 brother there. And from there we went to Croatia.
23 Q. Mr. Bogeljic, do you still suffer from the injuries which were
24 inflicted on you in the Motel Sretno in the night from the 18th May 1993
25 to the 19th of May, 1993?
1 A. I have health problems. I've already said that my spine has been
2 injured, I have a damaged kidney, and because of the sedatives, my
3 digestive system has suffered too.
4 Q. And is -- are these problems the result of the beatings in the
5 Motel Sretno?
6 A. Up until 1993, until the 18th of May -- I won't say I was an
7 absolutely healthy person, but I had absolutely no injuries except for
8 this right kidney, which I had a little problems with. But I had no
9 haematoma on it or anything like that. I just had an inflammation of
10 that kidney once, and that's why it was causing me some problems.
11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bogeljic.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the
13 Prosecution's evidence in chief.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have some small questions to
17 clarify some answers that you gave. You explained at one point that a
18 person brought you some water, cigarettes, and dates and that this person
19 while you were detained indicated the reason why you had been arrested
20 and beaten. Could you specify. Could you elaborate. What did this
21 person tell you?
22 A. He said literally the following: "You should consider yourself
23 lucky that your people have released some men --" I don't know who he
24 meant, because the day before Marinko Benic had been killed in Catici,
25 because of members of I don't know which unit. They had taken down the
1 flag. The HVO tried to prevent it and killed him. And then the HVO
2 captured some people. And then, if I understood him well, in order to
3 have their soldiers released, they arrested us, but we were all
5 That was what the man told me. I'm sorry I don't know his name,
6 because he really helped us a lot.
7 Once when they hit Mijo Petrovic with a bar, an iron bar that you
8 use for beer crates, he jumped up and prevented this man from hitting him
9 with it. The man was unconscious.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My second question has to do
11 with the point when after you were filmed by video. You were taken to be
12 shown to three military men allegedly from the BH Army. And you said
13 there was a French colonel there. What was he doing there? On what
14 grounds are you saying that he was a colonel, that he was French, and he
15 was a foreigner? How did you know that?
16 A. This man -- I know this because after the conflict, after when
17 Kakanj fell - for some people, it fell; for others, it was liberated. It
18 depends on your point of view - I ended up in my parents' place. I was
19 in bed. I couldn't move from my injuries. And then we went to Catici
20 with my wife and son and I saw a man who the night before -- no, that's
21 not right.
22 On the 18th to the 19th I saw that same man at the sports field,
23 and we thought it would be best to go to the UNPROFOR base. There were a
24 lot of people there, and we entered, and that's how I managed to meet the
25 colonel personally. An UNPROFOR unit was based there. They were
1 supervising things. Actually, the meeting was organised because they
2 wanted to reconcile the warring parties, even though there was no real
3 war at the time. There were incidents, but not an out-and-out conflict
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that you
6 showed your injuries before a representative of UNPROFOR and three
7 soldiers from Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
8 A. And the HVO. And an interpreter was present too.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you took your T-shirt
10 off, no one said anything? When you showed them your injuries, there
11 were no comments of any kind?
12 A. No. No. I don't remember any. Pavo said something though.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you were the only person to
14 appear before these people. Were there others who appeared to show their
15 injuries as well?
16 A. Only I was there before UNPROFOR, I and my wife. They said there
17 was a meeting and can we see what happened, can we show the French
18 colonel the injuries this person had sustained.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They wanted you to show your
20 injuries to the French colonel, or to the BH soldiers, or to the colonel
21 and the BH soldiers?
22 A. I think they wanted know show my injuries to everyone.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence may now
24 start its cross-examination.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Bogeljic. My name is Edina
3 Residovic, and I am Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic.
4 A. Good day.
5 Q. I'm going to ask you to answer some questions.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are some
7 general questions I want to put to the question about the situation,
8 since he worked in Kakanj and in Zenica, and this might be of
9 significance for the defence of my client.
10 Q. When answering questions put to you by the Prosecution, you said
11 that in 1986 you graduated from the PTT school in Sarajevo and that you
12 were qualified as a telecommunications engineer there; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. That same year you found a job in the post office in Zenica; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. You advanced rapidly, and you were soon made the chief
18 responsible for maintaining the digital telephone exchange in Central
20 A. No, that's not correct. In 1993, I became the person responsible
21 for the telecommunications centre. I was promoted by Kuc Harun, the
22 director, because my former boss, Zoran Zekanovic, had left Zenica. He
23 was a Serb.
24 Q. Thank you. You've already spoken -- you've already told the
25 Prosecution about the conditions in that area in 1992, and I want to ask
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 you whether in 1992 there were in fact no conflicts in Zenica between the
2 Muslims and the Croats. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. At the time, most of the Croats who were fit for military service
5 joined the HVO because the HVO at the beginning also proclaimed that
6 there would be a joint fight against the Serbian forces and the
7 Territorial Defence; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. In fact, at the time the common enemy was the Serbian army and
10 the JNA at the beginning. They had attacked Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Would it be correct to say that in fact the Serbian attacks
14 directed at the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina made the population
15 move and at the time a large number of Muslim and a smaller number of the
16 Croatian population came to the area of Krajina? Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. And a lot of displaced persons arrived from Eastern Bosnia, Foca,
19 Visegrad, Vlasenica, and Rogatica. On the whole, they were Muslims; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. The number of refugees arriving in Zenica at the time was in the
23 tens of thousands, not in the thousands; is that correct?
24 A. As far as I know, yes.
25 Q. The majority of those people arrived without any possessions,
1 since they had been expelled from their homes and were not able to take
2 anything with them; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So the number of the population of Zenica towards the end of 1992
5 almost doubled.
6 A. I heard -- or in fact, I know that before the war in Zenica there
7 were about 153.000 people, but my colleagues said that around 1993, when
8 all these people arrived from other places, mainly Bosniaks, there were
9 about 350.000 inhabitants. At least, that's what I was told.
10 Q. Thank you. But as you worked in Zenica and lived in Kakanj, you
11 could notice, especially in Zenica, that at the beginning of 1993 some
12 expelled people were coming to Zenica from the areas of Kiseljak,
13 Busovaca, and Vitez; in fact, from areas that were under the control of
14 the HVO. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. All these people arrived and had been frustrated for various
17 reasons. They said what had happened in Krajina, Eastern Bosnia, or the
18 territories from which they had arrived. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You also said that up until the war, life in Zenica and Kakanj
21 was a life that you lived on a daily basis, so people weren't
22 distinguished on the basis of their religion or their ethnic membership.
23 So you lived in a common manner. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But you've partially answered this question when asked by the
1 Prosecution: Is it correct to say that some of the politicians in fact
2 abused, took advantage of the accident, this unfortunate event, and they
3 tried to set the people against each other?
4 A. Well, even small children know about that.
5 Q. You and I know about that for sure, but perhaps the Trial Chamber
6 isn't aware of this fact, so I have to ask you.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Prosecution, you said
9 that you worked in the Zenica PTT until March 1993, at which point you
10 decided that it was no longer safe for you to go to work because a
11 colleague had accused you of working for the HVO; is that correct?
12 A. No, he didn't say that I worked for the HVO. People working for
13 telecommunications know a lot about communications, so my friends and I
14 listened to what was happening, since we could listen to conversations
15 and find out what was happening in the war areas. But no one was tapping
16 any conversations for anyone, but it was in someone's interests to say
17 that I was. My director, Kuc Harun, a very good man - we're even in
18 contact now - he said, "Nenad, you know a certain person - I won't say
19 who - said that you have done certain things. If I had called someone,
20 you'd have been killed. You understand?"
21 Q. But your director didn't believe that and he supported you.
22 A. Yes, by all means. Some didn't, but he did.
23 Q. But that incident with your colleague in fact made you decide on
24 your own that because you might not be safe you decided to leave your job
25 and you informed your director of this decision; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is. I spoke to him and I said that I would leave for a
2 while until things calmed down, because there were a lot of provocations
3 in Zenica at the time. People would break into other people's flats and
4 so on. People who lived in Zenica at the time were very well aware of
5 these facts.
6 Q. In fact, you went to Kakanj because you believed that the
7 situation in Kakanj was far better than the situation in Zenica.
8 A. There was no war in Kakanj. There were no refugees. And as you
9 yourself have said, that contributed to the conflict and made people
10 frustrated. People would arrive without any possessions. They had lost
11 half of their families, et cetera. But it was still peaceful in Kakanj.
12 I had a few Muslim neighbours whom I helped a lot. I knew people in
13 Caritas and we would always help them. We would help them -- we'd help
14 people from Ilijas and from Busovaca, but there was no one from Kiseljak
15 or Vitez.
16 Q. But you can confirm that the tension - especially in Zenica, but
17 even in Kakanj - had increased after people found out about the massacre
18 in Ahmici and because of all the rumours that were heard after that
19 event; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, exactly. And Geler, someone whom I have already mentioned,
21 said, "Remember Ahmici. Babies were set on fire there." That's what he
22 said when we were beaten.
23 Q. These were questions put to you by the Prosecution too. And in
24 order to better understand the situation of Kakanj, in Kakanj and in the
25 area in which you lived, I have a few questions I want to ask you. Is it
1 true to say that Kakanj is by the main road, which both before and even
2 today connects Zenica and Sarajevo, but at the time - because part of the
3 territory had been occupied by the Serbian forces - that part of the
4 territory behind Visoko - it was no longer possible to use that road to
5 get the Sarajevo? Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. But is it correct to say that it was nevertheless an important
8 road between territories under the control of the BH Army? So from
9 Visoko to Zepce?
10 A. Yes, that's the only route they could use. They could only pass
11 through by using that road.
12 Q. Is it true to say that Kakanj, because of its economy, primarily
13 because of its mine and hydroelectric -- and powerplant, it was very
14 important for the army and for the HVO and for the either country?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Is it also correct to say that the strategic importance of
17 Kakanj -- that it has strategic importance because you could connect not
18 only territory under the control of the army but also territory under
19 control of the HVO; for example, Busovaca, Kiseljak via Kakanj into
21 A. Well, as far as I know, yes. To Vares, yes, but not to Busovaca,
22 because the surrounding hills were under the control of the army. We're
23 talking about Busovaca, Vitez, and Kiseljak, in that direction. As far
24 as I am aware, that was the situation.
25 Q. Well, we only want to get an impression of the position Kakanj
1 was in.
2 Let's return to what you have already testified about. You said
3 that when you stopped going to work in Zenica you started to do certain
4 jobs for the HVO in March.
5 A. Yes. They needed someone who knew about telecommunications. I
6 was the only person in Kakanj -- apart from the young men who worked in
7 the post office, in the telecommunications section -- I was the only
8 person who knew about these things in the HVO. They didn't have anyone
9 who knew anything about telecommunications in the HVO.
10 Q. Tell me, in March did you do some technical services for the HVO
11 in Zenica as well in March?
12 A. In March?
13 Q. In March 1993.
14 A. Up until March, I went to the company to work every day. But
15 whenever it was necessary to establish communications down there, I also
16 controlled a certain area that I was responsible for. Topcic, Poljnemela
17 [phoen], Lasva, in those centres, I did whatever was necessary for the BH
18 Army and for others. That was my profession.
19 Q. But when you returned to Kakanj - you have already said this, but
20 I just want to repeat this because I don't know much about these
21 technical matters - in fact you established those antennas and increased
22 the radius of mobile telephones used by the HVO.
23 A. No, that's not correct. Those telephones -- or rather, the HVO
24 had its own telephones, in addition to the others. These were intended
25 for the people who lived there. They would use these telephones. There
1 was one in Kakanj by the primary school; one was in Caritas; another was
2 to be in the village of Srijetes, so that the population could have
3 communication, since the Croats -- most of the Croats had a lot of people
4 who were living abroad. They did pay for it and the money went to the
6 Q. The network that you established from that point in time made it
7 possible to use the communications, to use the communications network
8 with Croatia, Slovenia, and the entire world.
9 A. With the entire world, yes, that's correct. One such phone --
10 there was one such phone in Zenica, and later on in the post office they
11 made this possible in the booths as well. But there was a mobile
12 extension from Slovenia.
13 Q. You were involved in this work when you were arrested.
14 A. No. Younger men did that. They would charge for this work. I
15 only appeared when something needed to be repaired.
16 Q. Yes. But I mean in a general sense, those responsibilities,
17 those controls. You were responsible for that in May 1993 as well.
18 A. In May 1993, yes.
19 Q. You gave a detailed description of your arrest and being forcibly
20 taken away. The people who arrived in the house of your mother-in-law,
21 you didn't know them before, did you?
22 A. No, I didn't know them.
23 Q. You didn't find out who they were later on either.
24 A. Apart from one man. I found out about him because he introduced
25 himself. And one man was with me three years ago. He told me what his
1 name was. I knew his name was Serif, but I didn't know his surname.
2 Q. When they arrested you, they didn't tell you which unit they were
3 from, did they?
4 A. No. I could only draw conclusions myself.
5 Q. At that time you didn't notice insignia of any particular kind on
6 them, or did you?
7 A. I stand by what I have already said. I said they had insignia of
8 various kinds. It was 1993, and people would wear all sorts of insignia.
9 But we who lived in Kakanj, we know that the 7th Muslim Battalion was in
10 Motel Sretno.
11 Q. Yes, but I'm saying that at the time you couldn't remember, you
12 can't remember which of the patches from 1 to 24 these people had. Can
13 you remember that?
14 A. As I have already said, I think they had the first one. But I
15 also saw some wearing patches with the inscription "Allah-U-Ekber." And
16 most of them had headbands with Arab words and they had a red band
17 attached here, just like the kind of things people wear when they go into
19 Q. I know it's difficult to remind you of these things and to remind
20 you of events that relate to Motel Sretno, but you told the Prosecution
21 that when you entered the area where the reception is located, you said
22 that there were a number of soldiers there. You also said that you were
23 already afraid of what was going to happen to you and you started
24 justifying yourself, defending yourself.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Is that the reason for which you didn't pay particular attention
2 to the insignia that the troops who were present there had? Is it
3 because of your fear that you didn't pay particular attention to this
5 A. I didn't have time to look at what people had on their shoulders,
6 but I saw certain things and I've told you about what I saw. One is too
7 afraid in such situations. You have to experience these things.
8 Q. The people you met in front of those rooms -- or rather, in the
9 room in front of the reception area, you didn't know them.
10 A. I only knew one man who was from the neighbourhood.
11 Unfortunately, that man died or he was killed. He was the local hodza.
12 His name was Senada, I think. I saw him, him alone. But I didn't have
13 time to look around me.
14 Q. While you were being maltreated there, they asked for you to give
15 them money; is that correct?
16 A. On the whole, when I arrived they asked for money. First of all,
17 they swear at you. They say they'll kill you, they'll cut your throat.
18 That's what they did. But later I realised that the most important thing
19 for them was to get money.
20 Q. When at about 7.00 p.m. you were finally put into that third
21 room, which is where you saw other people, they all told you that none of
22 them had been beaten up until then.
23 A. The people who were there -- I've already said that I couldn't
24 see them very well at first, until my eyes got used to the dark. They
25 were too afraid to say anything or to tell me anything. I only asked
1 what the time was, and I know that someone told me that it was ten to
3 Q. Yes. But you were the first person to be beaten; is that
5 A. Yes, exactly. At least, I'm not aware of any other people.
6 Q. The maltreatment that you all suffered continued until 3.00 in
7 the morning; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. As I have said, I think that it stopped about 3.00. About
9 half past 3.00 they said someone would be turning up and then this
10 officer appeared and said that there was some sort of misunderstanding.
11 I don't remember everything, so take this with a grain of salt.
12 Q. You were released in the morning; is that correct?
13 A. Not exactly in the morning. It was around 12.00. I said 1.00 or
14 2.00. But it's difficult for me to remember. I was in a state of shock,
15 after all.
16 Q. When you went to Catici to your parents' house, you were visited
17 by HVO representatives. Blasko Pavlovic was among them; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. He appeared. He wanted to know where some sort of a mobile
19 phone was.
20 Q. He was also interested in whether you had said anything about the
21 HVO telecommunications network.
22 A. Well, I didn't have to say anything about that. All the
23 inhabitants of Kakanj were aware of these matters, these communications
24 devices, let's say.
25 Q. But Blasko Pavlovic asked you whether when you were being
1 maltreated you were asked about that subject.
2 A. No. He just came to visit me, to ask me how I was. That's all.
3 It was just a formality.
4 Q. The first time you gave a statement about what happened in the
5 Motel Sretno was when you gave a statement to OTP investigators; is that
7 A. Well, in Zagreb they asked me whether I wanted to give a
8 statement or not. I didn't really feel like it, but in the end I did.
9 Q. Before you didn't file any criminal charges against the people
10 who had maltreated you, neither to the civilian nor the military police.
11 A. Well, at the time, there was no one I could turn to. The
12 conflict had already broken out. The conflict broke out in a few days'
13 time. A few days later the police force didn't exist. There was the
14 military police force, various military police forces.
15 Q. Because of those complications, you didn't file a criminal report
16 of any kind.
17 A. No. I just went to see a doctor. They took some x-rays. It was
18 Dr. Marin and Dr. Spasojevic who examined me. And there was another one
19 who has died, another doctor. And they took some photographs.
20 Q. I just want to return to something that you mentioned to the
21 Prosecution at the beginning of your testimony. At the beginning of 1993
22 in the area of Zenica and Kakanj, there were various armed groups. They
23 had insignia of various kinds. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, at the beginning, that's how it was.
25 Q. At the time, BH Army brigades started being formed, is that
1 correct? And the BH Army started being formed; is that correct?
2 A. Which year?
3 Q. 1993.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. That process continued until you left Kakanj.
6 A. Yes. I left Kakanj on the 11th of September. I think that at
7 the time it was fairly peaceful in Kakanj. What had happened had
8 happened. There was no longer a conflict.
9 Q. At the time, you couldn't see as many armed groups who were
10 present with insignia of various kind.
11 A. At the time, it was a lot safer, both for the local population.
12 My parents remained in Kakanj. But refugees were still arriving and
13 creating problems. And people who would return from the battlefield in
14 Vares. But neighbours and others, no, they didn't create any problems.
15 Q. In response to a question from the Prosecution, you said that
16 although you live in the Republic of Croatia you go to Kakanj very often;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes, and to Zenica the too, and to the post office.
19 Q. Thank you very much. That's what I wanted to ask you as well.
20 You often go to Zenica too?
21 A. That's my town.
22 Q. You have a lot of friends there.
23 A. Mostly Bosniaks.
24 Q. You feel very safe among your friends both in Zenica and in
25 Kakanj. You don't have problems of any kind.
1 A. Listen, there are always incidents.
2 But there is one other thing that I haven't yet mentioned. I'll
3 tell you about this because you're from that area. There are people who
4 tried to protect me. And it was very hard for them when they realised
5 what had happened to me, and they cried when I returned seven years
6 later. Bosniaks.
7 Q. But now when you go to Zenica and Kakanj, you go there without
8 being afraid and you are completely safe, just like any other BH citizen;
9 is that correct?
10 A. Yes, I am a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have finished. Thank you very
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I object against this line of
14 questioning. That goes beyond the examination-in-chief.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at the beginning I
16 said I would have some general questions, and the answers given by the
17 witness today are answers that we frequently receive when responding to
18 the Prosecution. I think it is very useful to hear what we have heard
19 from the witness. I thank this witness, and I have finished my
20 cross-examination. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall now give
23 the floor to the other Defence counsel.
24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bogeljic, on behalf of Mr. Kubura's Defence,
2 I only have a few questions for you.
3 A. Please do.
4 Q. You said today during the examination that up until March you
5 travelled almost daily from Kakanj to Zenica and vice versa.
6 A. If there was a bus running, yes.
7 Q. The headquarters of your company was in Zenica.
8 A. Yes, the PTT company was based in Zenica.
9 Q. It is in the centre of Zenica, is it not?
10 A. Next to the Metalurg Hotel.
11 Q. Is it true that the headquarters of your company is in the
12 immediate vicinity of the music school, about 100 metres away?
13 A. To be quite honest, I don't know where the music school in Zenica
15 Q. Just one more question: The soldiers that took you on the 18th
16 of May to the Sretno Motel were not wearing the insignia of the military
18 A. The military police? No.
19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no further
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn now towards the
22 Prosecution. Has the Prosecution any re-examination for this witness?
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no
24 further questions. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
1 Mr. Withopf.
2 Sir, you have answered the questions put to you both by the
3 Prosecution and the Defence. You also answered several questions put by
4 me. Therefore, your testimony and examination here is over. We thank
5 you for coming and for testifying, and we wish you a safe journey home.
6 I'm now going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a problem to deal with,
10 and that is the admission into evidence of the CDs of this video. Do we
11 have those CDs?
12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I was informed 25 minutes ago that
13 the CDs would be available within the next hour or sooner.
14 Unfortunately, to this point in time we haven't the CDs yet. I would
15 suggest that in the event --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, there's something
17 I don't understand. This piece of evidence is something that you
18 communicated to the Defence counsel. We see that it is a videotape which
19 was broadcast through our internal system. How is it possible that,
20 knowing in advance, that you have produced this evidence but you don't
21 have in your possession a copy which you could provide us with? When a
22 document is produced, either a written document or a videotape, one has a
23 copy for admission. And, however, you are telling me that you still
24 don't have a copy. So technically I don't understand the difficulty that
25 you are having right now. Could you explain why it is not possible to
1 have those copies ready.
2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I certainly do
3 understand your concerns, and I apologise for the late submission of such
4 copies. However, the material which has been made available to the
5 Defence on a CD contains a number of video -- the contents of a number of
6 videotapes. The Prosecution gets such videotapes in the classical VHS
7 format. What actually has to be done - and unfortunately, this takes a
8 bit of time - the contents of the traditional videotapes have to be
9 burned on a CD. The CDs that have been given to the Defence are not the
10 very same CDs we are presenting and try to tender into evidence today.
11 Again, the relevant portions of a two-hours' video - what it actually is,
12 and we've seen, I think, some three or four minutes - have to be taken
13 off and transferred from this one CD to the other CDs, and this takes,
14 unfortunately, a bit of time.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber now
16 understands the technical problem involved, but it will always be
17 possible to have it admitted maybe tomorrow at the beginning of the
18 hearing. There's no urgency about it. We don't have to admit it in the
19 next few minutes, because everyone has seen it. It is part of the
20 record. So there's always time to admit it tomorrow.
21 We can now go into private session because there's a minor issue
22 to address, and it has to be done in private session.
23 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Still on the subject of
12 documents, I turn to the Prosecution. You have tendered a document.
13 This was P50, a photo of the Sretno Motel. And you also produced another
14 photograph, the photograph of the entry door where the witness told us
15 that he entered through this door. But this document has not been
16 officially tendered.
17 Let us check. Let us check. Mr. Registrar, did we have a P51?
18 I'm just checking.
19 P50, yes, and P51. So that, too, is settled. We do have the
20 exhibit numbers for these documents. So everything is in order now
21 regarding the documents.
22 It is 5.30. No more witnesses? I understand there was just one
23 witness for today?
24 MR. WITHOPF: There was just one witness for today. And,
25 Mr. President, Your Honours, the copies of the CDs just arrived, so I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 wish to tender them into evidence now.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's fine. Let
3 us now admit these documents.
4 If I understand well, each CD corresponds to one of the fragments
5 that we saw. We saw several persons showing their injuries. And as far
6 as I can recollect, there were three or four -- four. There were four.
7 But let the Defence check. I think there were four persons that were
8 filmed. So theoretically, we should have four CDs.
9 I'm looking at the Prosecution.
10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, when you showed us
12 the video clips, there were four persons filmed. If there were four
13 persons, there should be four CDs. And it appears that we have --
14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please explain to us
16 the two CDs so as to avoid any confusion.
17 MR. WITHOPF: That's exactly the purpose, Mr. President, why I
18 wish you to allow me to confer with the case manager, please.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're listening.
22 The Defence also have in their hands two CDs, and they have an
23 exhibit number, P52. The first says V000306, 1 of 2; and the other one
24 says 2 of 2. Could you explain for us, please, what these are, what
25 these two CDs correspond to.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, on the two CDs is the
2 full video sequence including the four portions that have been shown
3 today in the course of the proceedings. We will provide the registrar,
4 the Defence, and the Trial Chamber with an index actually indicating and
5 detailing the relevant portion, which will enable you, Your Honours, and
6 Defence to actually identify the respective portions of the video.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly, the
8 two CDs contain the totality of the videos that last two hours. And on
9 these two CDs we have the four persons that we saw. Is that right? So
10 what you are tendering is not strictly limited to the four persons that
11 we saw a moment ago but it covers the whole video material that was
12 disclosed to the Defence before the beginning of trial. Could you
13 explain that for us, please.
14 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, what we are tendering are only the
15 portions which have been shown in the course of the today's proceedings,
16 and the index we will provide the Trial Chamber and the Defence will
17 exactly detail -- will exactly detail which portions mirror what we have
18 seen in the course of the today's proceedings.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think that for the purpose of
20 legal security, it would be better for us to see these CDs once again, to
21 avoid any confusion, because I really do not know what these correspond
23 But Mr. Bourgon perhaps is going to intervene.
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it's not
25 that complicated. I think we should isolate the scenes that we saw in
1 the courtroom. These should not contain anything other than what the
2 Chamber has seen.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's exactly what I believe
5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The Prosecution mentioned at the
6 beginning that we received these documents on the 10th of October last
7 year. We are not able at this point to confirm this. We didn't make any
8 objections because we're going to verify our files this evening and
9 perhaps tomorrow we can make some representations regarding those
10 documents. Because at the moment we don't have those exhibits. We don't
11 remember receiving them. But we will first verify our files before
12 making any representations to the Chamber about it.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think the other
14 Defence team is saying the same thing; right? Very well.
15 Mr. Dixon.
16 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, we would say the same thing, that
17 only the portions that are admitted into evidence should be before Your
18 Honours and not the other material, which is not in evidence as yet. I'm
19 grateful, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
21 I turn again to Mr. Withopf. Have you understood the problem?
22 It's not such a major problem, but it's there nevertheless. The Defence,
23 quite rightly - and the Chamber shares their opinion - is telling us that
24 we can admit today only what we saw a moment ago, and that is the video
25 clips showing the four persons who showed their torsos. The ambiguity is
1 that we have two CDs, so we don't know whether those two CDs contain
2 solely those four persons or whether they contain other videos, and the
3 Defence is telling us today that they think they had them in October but
4 they can't confirm that that corresponds to what they saw in the
5 courtroom, so they are asking for some time to reflect about it.
6 So it would be better if we mark these for identification and we
7 can come back to this, unless you are certifying that these two CDs
8 contain solely and exclusively the four persons that we saw. So the
9 solution would be to play them again, and we can verify. Perhaps we can
10 do that, or maybe that's a technical problem, or we can wait until
11 tomorrow, allowing you time to think it over and to verify that these
12 tapes contain only images of the witness and the three other persons.
13 What do you think about it?
14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, these two CDs contain
15 two hours of video footage. It is the copy of a --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two hours. [In English] Two
18 MR. WITHOPF: Exactly. It contains the copy -- the full copy --
19 of a videotape, one of these old-version-type videotapes which has been
20 provided to the Prosecution in the course of the investigation. We
21 tender only such portions into evidence which have been shown today. In
22 order to enable to identify such portions, we will provide both the Trial
23 Chamber and the Defence with an index that gives you the very exact times
24 when the relevant portion starts and when the relevant portion ends.
25 There is no ambiguity at the end of the day.
1 If, however, Your Honours wish to isolate such portions from the
2 CDs and to provide and to tender into evidence isolated portions, we can
3 certainly do this as well; however, this takes again, unfortunately, a
4 bit of time.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Having examined and re-examined the Prosecution, the Chamber
7 discovers that in fact these two CDs represent the totality of the video
8 material and that they last two hours. And to solve the problem in
9 connection with the testimony of the witness we had a moment ago, the
10 Prosecution tells us that they can provide an index allowing us to find
11 those passages. I think that the Defence is not agreeable at all with
12 this method of procedure, and they would like us to admit only the clips
13 and fragments relative to this witness which he authenticated.
14 However, the Prosecution tells us that -- that if we so wish they
15 could extract from this material only the fragments that we saw a moment
16 ago. So I give the floor again to the Defence.
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We align
18 ourselves to your suggestion. The sequences shown in the courtroom today
19 should be the only ones admitted.
20 This brings me to the question of documents received by the
21 Defence -- disclosed to the Defence. We did receive CDs in the pre-trial
22 period. However, we haven't checked whether those documents were part of
23 the documents proposed by the Prosecution as documents that would be
24 tendered into evidence, and that is what we are going to verify this
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After deliberating on this
3 technical issue, the Chamber decides, for the moment, to delay the
4 admission of these two CDs which contain material which we haven't seen.
5 And we would like to ask the Prosecution to extract from these CDs only
6 the videos that we saw a moment ago. And then on the new CDs we will
7 have only what was viewed and discussed a moment ago.
8 In the meantime, the Defence is obviously going to review what
9 was disclosed to it in October and check that they did have in their
10 possession the sequences that we saw a moment ago.
11 Therefore, I am returning to the Prosecution these two CDs. I
12 prefer to have them replayed, reformed, reburnt. And so tomorrow we will
13 have CDs which will contain only the sequences that we saw in the
14 courtroom today. Surely this will not be too difficult, in view of the
15 availability of resources.
16 So this question of admission into evidence, what we saw will be
17 regulated as soon as possible by the Prosecution, which will provide us
18 on a single CD the four short clips relating to the witness and the three
19 other persons.
20 Having exhausted the agenda, it was time for the break anyway,
21 but be will suspend the hearing until tomorrow, unless the Prosecution
22 has something to say. Yes.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, can we please go in
24 private session, since I have to make a --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will go into private
2 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With
13 your leave and in accordance with the rule of the Pre-Trial Judge dated
14 the 9th of November, 2001, I want to address the Trial Chamber in order
15 to make an oral request to have permission for -- to respond to the
16 response from the Prosecution, which was provided to our request asking
17 the Trial Chamber to take judicial notice on the basis of previous cases.
18 Seeing the time it is, I could make this oral request at the beginning of
19 the hearing tomorrow, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are talking about an order
21 of the 9th of November. I don't have it before me. What does it say?
22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] This order from the Pre-Trial Judge
23 says that if one party wants to respond to the other side's response,
24 they should ask to do that within a time limit of 20 days and they should
25 mention the reasons for which it is necessary to reply.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And do you have the time to
2 make this request?
3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] We can do it immediately or
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If we have the time, then we
6 should deal with the matter immediately.
7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 In accordance with the Pre-Trial Judge's order, a party that
9 wants to respond should ask the permission of the Trial Chamber if there
10 are good grounds for such a response.
11 The Prosecution provided a response to our request on the 26th of
12 January, and this leaves us up until the 30th of January to ask for
13 permission to respond.
14 As the Trial Chamber suggests, we are addressing the Trial
15 Chamber orally. If the arguments aren't convincing or sufficient, we
16 could make this request in writing, within the four-day time limit if the
17 Trial Chamber so decides. With regard to the grounds for our request for
18 leave to respond - Mr. President, I refer to the response of the
19 Prosecution on the 26th of January.
20 To summarise the arguments put forward by the Prosecution with
21 regard to this matter, the Prosecution presented three main grounds
22 opposing our request:
23 First of all, the relevance of the facts for which we are asking
24 the Trial Chamber to take judicial notice; and secondly, considerations
25 of public order, or rather, the possible negative consequences that it
1 could have on the length of the proceedings if the Trial Chamber takes
2 judicial notice of the facts that we are suggesting; and the third
3 grounds put forward by the Prosecution concern the fact that the Defence,
4 in its opinion, hasn't passed the test elaborated in the Krajisnik case.
5 The test is referred to in paragraph 3 of its response. And they mention
6 the criteria that have to be met so that the Trial Chamber may take
7 judicial notice of certain facts.
8 With regard to the first two grounds put forward by the
9 Prosecution, first of all, the relevance of the facts, I think that the
10 request and the response from the Prosecution would allow the Trial
11 Chamber to rule on this subject.
12 With regard to the second grounds put forward - that is to say,
13 public order considerations or, rather, the possible negative
14 consequences this would have for the length of the proceedings - I think
15 that yet again, Mr. President, the facts presented by the Defence in its
16 request, in its motion and by the Prosecution in its response are
17 sufficient to allow the Trial Chamber to rule on this subject.
18 We hope that we will have permission to respond on the basis of
19 the third grounds, that is, the test put forward in the Krajisnik case.
20 And this is the object of our request. We think we could facilitate the
21 Trial Chamber's work by explaining, as suggested by the Prosecution, why
22 all the criteria of the test elaborated in the Krajisnik affair -- case
23 have been met, and this is -- it is on this basis that we are requesting
24 that the Trial Chamber take judicial notice of certain facts.
25 And this conclusion, Mr. President, we request permission to
1 respond with regard to one of the main principles -- one of the main
2 points put forward by the Prosecution. The facts that we are suggesting
3 to the Chamber, we are stating that the criteria elaborated in the
4 Krajisnik case should be respected. This is the important criterion.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you
6 correctly, what you are saying is that you are requesting leave to
7 produce a response to the position adopted by the Prosecution with regard
8 to the relevance, public order, and with regard to the test. So you
9 would like to respond to that.
10 We will give you our answer tomorrow at the beginning of the
11 hearing at 2.15.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Having dealt with all the
14 matters, I'll adjourn the hearing and we will resume our work tomorrow at
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.54 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
18 January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.