1 Thursday, 12 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please could you
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin, Ekkehard Withopf, and the
13 case manager, Kimberly Fleming.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Appearances for the Defence. It seems that somebody is lacking
16 amongst you.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 Good afternoon, Mr. President. Edina Residovic and Alexis
19 Demirdjian, legal assistant. Mr. Stephane Bourgon, my co-counsel, has a
20 previous commitment and he's going to join us during the first break.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 The other Defence counsel, please.
24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
25 Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Rodney Dixon, and Mr. Mulalic, legal
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber greets
3 everybody present in the courtroom, the representatives of the OTP, of
4 the Defence, the accused, as well as everybody else present in the
5 courtroom, and in particular the interpreters, who are doing an excellent
6 job and who help the Chamber in their work.
7 Today on our schedule we have two witnesses; one who is coming
8 for the cross-examination, and then the second witness. But before begin
9 the cross-examination, I'm going to ask Mr. Registrar to move into
10 private session, please.
11 [Private session]
12 Page 2721 redacted, private session
12 Page 2722 redacted, private session
12 Page 2723 redacted, private session
12 Page 2724 redacted, private session
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. You
23 have returned to us. Yesterday you were examined by the Prosecution.
24 Within this procedure, the Defence of the accused are also going to put
25 some questions to you. As I already told you yesterday, when giving your
1 answers, take your time; answer as completely as possible. If you don't
2 understand the question, ask the person who has put it to you to rephrase
4 And as I've already told you, the Judges also may ask you
5 questions, and after that the Prosecution will have the right to
6 re-examine you, should they wish to do so.
7 I don't want to take any more of your time. I would like to
8 enable you to go home as soon as possible.
9 I am giving the floor to the Defence.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 WITNESS: BERISLAV MARJANOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Marjanovic. My name is
15 Edina Residovic. I am Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. I
16 will ask you to answer some of my questions.
17 Is it true that before today's testimony you gave a statement
18 about the events at several places immediately after you were rescued at
19 the police station. Then also, two or three days after you managed to
20 save yourself you gave a statement to some foreigners who visited you;
21 and you also gave an interview for television and newspapers? Is that
23 A. No, it isn't.
24 Q. So what -- you're saying that you never before gave a statement
25 about this event.
1 A. I did give a statement about the event that I spoke about
3 Q. Very well, then. So two or three days after you managed to save
4 yourself from being shot, you spoke about the event in the way it really
5 happened; is that true?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Then your memory was much more complete and better than ten years
9 A. I suppose so. It should be the case. I don't know.
10 Q. Let's go back to some questions that my learned friend asked you.
11 You said that you were born and raised in Paklarevo village, which is
12 between Turbe and Travnik in Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your village is at the foot of Mount Vlasic; is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that you were a farmer, that you were engaged in cattle
17 raising, and the area where you reside is very well known for cattle
18 raising; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. In March 1992, you noticed that the Serbs in the vicinity of your
21 village and in the general area of Travnik started digging trenches, and
22 especially on Mount Galica, which is part of Mount Vlasic; is that
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. A month later, sometime in April 1992, the first shell from the
1 Serb positions from Mount Vlasic started falling on your village; is that
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. After that day, you could also hear sniper fire in your village;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. And that was the reason for which you, as you told us yesterday,
8 able-bodied men in the village, decided to organise yourselves and set up
9 guards in order to protect your village; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, we organised ourselves, and we guard our village.
11 Q. You participated in village guards and you had a pistol; is that
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. On the 15th of May, a shell fell on the village and it injured
15 you severely; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You sustained severe injuries at that time. A shrapnel of the
18 shell which had been fired from the Serb positions hit you in the head;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is. The shell was fired, and I was wounded by the
22 Q. And although you were taken to the hospital in Travnik, the
23 doctors there could not remove the shrapnel because of the complications.
24 A. It is not just one shrapnel that wasn't removed. I had several
25 shrapnels -- I have several shrapnels in my body that haven't been
2 Q. You told us yesterday that after a certain period of treatment
3 which lasted for 10 or 15 days, you didn't return to your village,
4 Paklarevo, but to Maljine, where the situation was somewhat more
5 peaceful; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. In Maljine village, there was mixed population, both Muslim and
9 A. Yes, but they were separated. The Croats were higher up and
10 Muslims were lower down.
11 Q. At the time when you arrived there and a few months after that,
12 there were no conflicts in the village between the Muslims and the
13 Croats. On the contrary, they guarded the lines facing the Serbian
14 positions in the direction of Vlasic together; isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. In the vicinity of Maljine, there is the village of Mehurici,
17 where the inhabitants are mostly Muslims; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. While you were staying in Maljine, you occasionally went to
20 Mehurici, and on a market day you were able to see some foreigners there
21 who looked different from the local inhabitants; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. In fact, they had taken over some Serbian houses in the village
24 of Poljanice, in the immediate vicinity of Mehurici; isn't that correct?
25 A. I don't know whether they took over -- occupied some houses, but
1 I saw them down in Mehurici.
2 Q. However, you were able to notice that some of the local Muslims
3 occasionally started joining these foreigners and imitating them; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In the spring of 1993, as you were on sick leave and were able to
7 follow the news on the radio and the television, you noticed that the
8 general situation as far as the army and HVO relationship was concerned
9 had deteriorated.
10 A. Yes. I heard about Vitez that in -- and I heard about Busovaca
11 and Novi Travnik. I heard about that on the radio.
12 Q. Such news also had an effect on the fear felt by the local
13 population; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In March 1993, the Frankopan Brigade was founded. Its
16 headquarters were in the monastery in Guca Gora, and most of the men who
17 were fit from military service from Maljine were part of that brigade;
18 isn't that correct?
19 A. Well, to be quite frank, I don't know what the name of the
20 brigade was.
21 Q. However, you do know that the men who were fit for military
22 service from Maljine were HVO members.
23 A. Yes, they were HVO members, but I don't know what the name of the
24 brigade was.
25 Q. You did not join that brigade because of your injuries; isn't
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. However, HVO members from the village started establishing
4 certain defence lines facing the BH army; isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes, they would dig in in their direction, which is what the BH
6 army did too with regard to them.
7 Q. As of that date, the HVO members from Maljine no longer went to
8 the lines in Vlasic but they stayed at the positions around the village;
9 isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On the 8th of June, 1993 you said that you were at home with your
12 family; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When you heard shooting, you went down to the basement with your
15 wife and your children.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You heard that they were firing from the hill, but as you were in
18 the basement, you were not able to see the soldiers or the insignia they
19 were wearing.
20 A. I wasn't in the basement all the time. I put my family in the
21 basement. But occasionally I would have a look outside.
22 Q. You heard that for some time the HVO returned fire from positions
23 around the village, but this soon ceased and you came to the conclusion
24 that those positions had fallen.
25 A. I don't know who was returning fire. I just heard intense
1 shooting. But as to who was doing the shooting, I don't know.
2 Q. After some time, you were asked to surrender. And after
3 negotiations held in the village, you yourself surrendered.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In the course of those negotiations with army representatives, a
6 doctor from the village participated in these negotiations; isn't that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You then handed over your pistol, which you had taken with you
10 from Paklarevo after you had been wounded and after you had arrived in
11 Maljine; isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes, I did hand it over.
13 Q. Because of the overall situation, and in particular because of
14 the fact that you were with your children, you were afraid and you didn't
15 pay any attention to the insignia that the army members were wearing.
16 A. The BH army members did have insignia.
17 Q. You headed towards Mehurici.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And on the way there, you were escorted by BH army soldiers;
20 isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. During the entire trip, you were treated fairly.
23 A. Yes, up until Bikosi Gora. Then we were shoved into some sort of
24 a car.
25 Q. Is it true to say that when you had passed through the village of
1 Poljanice, four or five men, three Mujahedin, and two Muslims met you?
2 They had green masks over their faces, and they were taking 15 Croats
3 with them from the first group that had left Maljine.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Because of the masks that these persons were wearing, you
6 couldn't recognise the local Muslims.
7 A. No, I couldn't.
8 Q. You only noticed that one of the local Muslims was acting as an
10 A. Yes. Not just one of them; there were -- yes, he was acting as
11 an interpreter.
12 Q. Since you said that you were at the back of the column and at the
13 time you were carrying your small child, you didn't even pay attention
14 and you didn't hear what the Mujahedin told the soldiers who were
15 escorting you.
16 A. At the back of the column, they separated me with that group.
17 Q. Yes, but before, when they had only just arrived, at the
18 beginning of the column. You don't know whether they spoke to the
19 soldiers who were escorting you.
20 A. Well, they did speak about something, but I don't know what the
21 subject was.
22 Q. Very well. You said that they separated you. You handed over
23 your underaged child to your wife. And they then took you towards
24 Bikosi; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. These Mujahedin and the local Muslims who were masked escorted
2 you as far as Bikosi in fact; isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I won't go over everything that you said, but is it true that
5 they shot at you in Bikosi when Mijo Tavic, who was in your group,
6 started screaming because he had an epileptic fit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Immediately after that scream, you could hear shooting.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You fell to the ground, and you remained on the ground until the
11 situation calmed down. After that, according to what you said, you and
12 several others who had survived managed to escape and to reach the
13 village of Sarici, after which the HVO took you to Nova Bila; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Very well. I have no further questions. Thank you,
17 Mr. Marjanovic.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Is there any cross-examination for the other Defence team?
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have
22 any questions for this witness. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before the Prosecution
24 takes the floor, there is just one matter I would like to clarify.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thanks to the
2 cross-examination, we have discovered that in fact you were the victim of
3 three shots in 1992, before June, and at least two of the shots came from
4 the Serbs. And you said, in response to a question, that you still have
5 pieces of shrapnel in your body that resulted from the shots fired by the
6 Serbs. Is that what you have testified? Is that your testimony?
7 A. Yes, the pieces of shrapnel are the result of the grenades thrown
8 by the Serbs. And the wound I have below my left knee, that is what
9 happened when I was shot at.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So yesterday I
11 asked you a question about the nature of the bullet that hit you below
12 the left knee. According to what you have told us - and this is also
13 what came out in the course of the cross-examination - we have discovered
14 that when someone had an epileptic fit there was an incident. A shot was
15 fired. As far as you can remember, this was the 8th of June, 1993, so it
16 happened a long time ago. But such events do remain in one's memory.
17 The shots fired, were they rifle shots or was it a burst of fire from a
18 machine-gun? Were these individual shots, or were they bursts of fire?
19 Do you remember anything about this?
20 A. Well, first of all, there was a burst of fire. And after the
21 burst of fire, individual shots were fired.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And when you were
23 wounded, was this the result of a burst of fire or of an individual shot?
24 A. It was a burst of fire that hit me.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you said that you were
1 wounded as a result of a burst of fire. So it must have been from a
2 machine-gun, rather than a rifle. What conclusion would you draw from
3 this fact?
4 A. Well, they were automatic rifles which fired bursts of fire.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The wound that you
6 sustained in your left leg, in your opinion was it a serious wound, a
7 superficial wound, very -- a very serious wound, an average wound? How
8 would you describe it? Because it was an entry and exit wound, as far as
9 we have understood; isn't that correct?
10 A. It passed through the area below my left knee, but it wasn't a
11 serious wound. If the wound had been serious, I wouldn't have been able
12 to escape from that place.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are telling
14 us that the wound wasn't very serious.
15 A. Yes, it wasn't very serious. If it had been a serious wound, I
16 wouldn't have been able to escape from that site.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when you escaped, did you
18 have to limp or were you able to walk without great problems?
19 A. Well, I had certain difficulties, but I was able to run without
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you escaped after those who
22 had fired had left. Or did you escape -- or were you escaping at the
23 same time that the shooting was ongoing?
24 A. When they dispersed, that is when I escaped. I wouldn't have
25 been able to escape if they had been present.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you waited for them to
2 leave. And when they left, how many of them were there? You were
3 present. Were you able to count them? How many of them were there?
4 A. Well, there were about seven or eight of them, because a small
5 group led us from down there. And when we went closer to Bikosi, others
6 joined them. But there were about seven or eight of them in the group.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And before they left, they
8 didn't try to check the number of dead or wounded?
9 A. Before they left, they fired individual shots. I think they were
10 alternate shots, because otherwise I wouldn't have got away, because they
11 shot some of them in the head.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're saying
13 that they shot at random at those who were on the ground before they
14 left, and you were fortunate and weren't hit. Is that how we are to
15 understand your testimony?
16 A. They didn't hit me. They probably shot at those who were moving
17 a lot. They wanted to help them die quickly, probably.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for these
19 clarifications concerning the character of your wound, because in the
20 indictment it is stated that you sustained a serious wound. But from a
21 medical point of view it's very difficult to assess the nature of your
22 wound, because we don't have any documents apart from your statement.
23 I'm going to address the Prosecution now to see if they have any
24 further questions to put to the witness in the light of the questions put
25 by the Trial Chamber.
1 Do you have any other questions for this witness? Mr. Withopf, or
2 Mrs. Benjamin?
3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no
4 further questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
6 Witness, this concludes your examination. You have answered the
7 questions put to you both by the Prosecution and by the Defence, as well
8 as to the questions put to you by the Trial Chamber. Thank you for your
9 testimony. We wish you a good trip home.
10 The usher will now escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you
11 once more.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the
15 Prosecution if the witness scheduled for today is present.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness is
18 However, there's an issue I would like to discuss in private
19 session, prior to the witness being called in.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll ask the
21 registrar now to go into private session.
22 [Private session]
12 Pages 2739 redacted, private session
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Are you
12 receiving the interpretation of what I am saying?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you've been called here as
15 a witness for the Prosecution in a case that the Trial Chamber is
16 responsible for. In order to testify before this Court, you must first
17 tell us your name.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mijo Marijanovic.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When and where were you born?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 29th of September
21 in Kupres, in the village of Ocinovici.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your
23 current status? Are you retired? Are you still working?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't retired yet. I'm not
25 receiving any pension benefits at the moment. I am being cared for by
1 the Red Cross and social welfare.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can you tell us, in
3 1993, ten years ago, what was your profession? What sort of position did
4 you hold at the time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I worked as a driver
6 in the Bugojno medical centre. And I was an official for procurement.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As you will be
8 testifying before this Trial Chamber, you have to make a solemn
9 declaration. The usher who is by your side will show you a text, and I
10 would be grateful if you could read it out.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to stand up?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Given your condition, you
13 can remain sitting.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: MIJO MARIJANOVIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have just made
19 a solemn declaration before testifying.
20 Before we proceed, could you tell us whether you have already
21 testified in court or is this the first time for you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Representatives of the Prosecution have informed us that you have
25 certain medical problems at the moment.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we will have a break every
3 40 or 45 minutes in order to allow you to rest. If in the course of the
4 examination you would like a break, do tell us. We will adjourn the
5 hearing at your request. So if you feel it is necessary to have the
6 hearing adjourned, let us know and we will adjourn it.
7 First of all, I would like to inform you of the procedure to be
8 followed. You're going to now have to answer questions that will be put
9 to you by representatives of the Prosecution. The Prosecution is to your
10 right. In a short while, a representative of the Prosecution will be
11 asking you some questions.
12 Insofar as it is possible, try to provide us with complete
13 answers to the extent that you can remember the events that took place
14 over ten years ago. If you're unable to answer a question, if you have
15 forgotten something , if you are incapable of answering a question, be
16 frank and tell us. If the question put to you seems too difficult or if
17 you don't understand it, ask the person putting the question to you to
18 rephrase the question.
19 When the Prosecution has concluded its examination, the Defence,
20 who are to your left - there are five of them, but only two of them will
21 be asking you questions - if they feel it is necessary, the Defence will
22 cross-examine you. The questions that they will put to you will have to
23 do with the questions put to you by the Prosecution or will have to do
24 with the context at the time, because the Defence also has to verify
25 certain facts that you will be testifying about.
1 The objective of these questions is to make matters clear for the
2 Judges, who are before. If the Judges feel that it is necessary, they
3 may also ask you questions in order to clarify matters that may have
4 arisen in the course of the examination of the cross-examination.
5 If you feel that there are difficulties of any kind, let us know
6 and we will adjourn the hearing.
7 It is now quarter past 3.00. We will proceed for about 40
8 minutes and we will adjourn at ten to 4.00. Have you understood
9 everything I have said?
10 Witness, have you understood what I have just told you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood you very well.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Prosecution, Mr. Withopf, you have the floor. You may begin your
15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
16 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Marijanovic.
18 A. Thank you. Good afternoon to you too.
19 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber where, in
20 which town you grew up.
21 A. In Bugojno.
22 Q. Can you please also inform the Trial Chamber where you lived in
23 spring and summer of 1993.
24 A. Also in Bugojno, and I was detained as well.
25 Q. We will come to your detention later on, Mr. Marijanovic.
1 Have you ever been a member of the JNA, the Yugoslav People's
2 Army, the JNA. When did you do your military service for the JNA?
3 A. Oh, that. That was in 1966. And I completed in 1967.
4 Q. You already mentioned a few minutes ago that you were arrested in
5 1993. Do you still recall as to when you were arrested? Do you know --
6 do you still recall the month in which you were arrested?
7 A. It was in July, between the 18th and the 23rd.
8 Q. Between the 18th and the 23rd of July, 1993?
9 A. Yes, yes, thereabouts.
10 Q. Can you please tell us who arrested you.
11 A. It was the BiH army.
12 Q. Once you were arrested by the BiH army in July 1993, where were
13 you brought to?
14 A. I was brought to the basement of the grammar school. This is the
15 place where coal and fuel wood used to be kept for the school.
16 Q. You just said you were arrested by the army, by the ABiH. Were
17 you arrested by soldiers of the ABiH?
18 A. Yes, they were all soldiers. They all wore uniforms.
19 Q. And the soldiers who arrested you, were they armed?
20 A. Yes, of course. They had all sorts of weapons.
21 Q. Can you please briefly describe the sort of weapons, all sort of
22 weapons they had.
23 A. As far as I could tell, they had Kalashnikovs, they had some
24 machine-guns, and automatic rifles.
25 Q. At the time you were arrested, Mr. Marijanovic, were you a
1 civilian or were you a member of the HVO?
2 A. At the time, I was a member of the HVO. At that time, I was on a
3 leave, on a week's leave, and I wore civilian clothes.
4 Q. After you were arrested and brought to the school, what did
5 happen to you?
6 A. They arrested me, my wife, and my daughter. They took us to the
7 basement, where there were three cells.
8 Q. Can you please inform us about the size of the cells in the
10 A. Approximately 3 by 3 or 3 by 4.
11 Q. To your recollection, Mr. Marijanovic, were all these cells, all
12 the three cells, of the same or similar size?
13 A. They were almost identical.
14 Q. Once you were brought to this cell in the basement, were there
15 already any other prisoners?
16 A. Yes, there were.
17 Q. And can you inform the Trial Chamber how many other prisoners.
18 A. In every cell there were approximately 35 to 40 people. I was
19 taken to just one cell, and that is the only cell I could see. I
20 couldn't see what was happening in other two cells. It was dark, and you
21 know what basements usually look like. They're dark; they don't have any
23 Q. Just as a matter for clarification, Mr. Marijanovic, how many
24 people, how many detainees were imprisoned in the cell you were detained?
25 A. Between 35 and 40. It was dark. It was night. I couldn't count
1 them. But the cell was crowded. You couldn't even sit down. You had to
2 remain standing.
3 Q. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, can you please inform us
4 about the ethnic background of the detainees.
5 A. They were all Muslims.
6 Q. The detainees, Mr. Marijanovic, you are --
7 A. Most of them were Croats. Almost 99 per cent of them were
9 Q. And the detained Croats, were they civilians or were they
11 A. There were both civilians and soldiers.
12 Q. You were just mentioning, Mr. Marijanovic, that together with
13 you, your wife and your daughter were arrested. Were they also brought
14 to the basement of the school?
15 A. Yes, yes, of course. However, they separated us.
16 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the age of your
17 daughter at the time.
18 A. Nineteen, twenty.
19 Q. You were arrested in July 1993. Would you please tell us about
20 the temperature in the cell you were detained.
21 A. It was deadly. We didn't have a thermometer, but we were all
22 sweating profusely. We could hardly breathe.
23 Q. Can you please inform, Mr. Marijanovic, can you please inform the
24 Trial Chamber about the sanitary conditions in the cell.
25 A. There were none. We didn't have water. We didn't have a toilet.
1 They had to take us outside, or they would bring us a bottle of water.
2 It all depended on their whim.
3 Q. Can you please also inform us about the food you were given in
4 the cell.
5 A. There was none in the grammar school.
6 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Marijanovic, whilst you were detained
7 in the grammar school that you were beaten?
8 A. On a couple of occasions, they took me out to some other room and
9 they beat me.
10 Q. And can you please provide us with some more detail about the
12 A. There was a room there. It was not a classroom. Most probably
13 it was the teachers' room, where the teachers used to have their meals.
14 This was the room where they beat us.
15 Q. And the ones who beat you, did they use any tools to beat you?
16 A. They used all sorts of things. They used sticks, fists, rubber
17 batons; whatever they had they used.
18 Q. And can you please also tell us on what parts of your body you
19 were beaten.
20 A. I was facing them, so they slapped me. They hit me on the chest,
21 in the stomach. If I wasn't facing them, then they hit me in the back.
22 Q. You're telling us about the beatings you got. Were the other
23 detainees also beaten?
24 A. Yes, of course. Everybody was beaten. Everybody fared the same.
25 Q. And for how long, Mr. Marijanovic, did these beatings last?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Sometimes it took less, sometimes it took more, depending on the
2 person who did the beating. I didn't have a wristwatch, so I -- I didn't
3 know the exact time.
4 Q. And do you still recall, Mr. Marijanovic, whether the ones who
5 beat you were civilians or soldiers?
6 A. They were all soldiers, to the last. They all wore uniforms.
7 Q. And do you know, Mr. Marijanovic, to which army they belonged to?
8 A. They told us every time that they were BiH army soldiers.
9 Q. Whilst you were detained in the basement, were you guarded there?
10 A. Of course. Of course. In the vicinity, they were so close that
11 they could overhear our conversations. We were afraid to talk to each
12 other because we were afraid they would take us out for beating if they
13 heard us.
14 Q. And the ones who guarded you there, were they also soldiers?
15 A. Of course. Of course. They all wore uniforms.
16 Q. And were they also soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and
18 A. They told me that they were all BiH army soldiers.
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, after the break I will
20 show the witness two photographs in relation to the school building.
21 Unfortunately, the Sanction technology is not working at this point in
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have those photos?
24 MR. WITHOPF: We do have the photos, the hard copies available.
25 However, the Sanction technology is not working. The one has actually
1 already been tendered in the past, and there would be a second one, which
2 would be a new one.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Maybe your
4 screen is out of order and the others may be working. I don't know. Can
5 you check? If not, maybe you can provide us with the hard copy of your
6 photos and you can ask questions based on the hard copy of the
7 photographs that you're going to show to the witness.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the first photograph I intended to
10 show the witness is a photograph which has already been tendered into
11 evidence. For the purpose of identification, I wanted to use the
12 Sanction technology only.
13 The second one, however, is a new one and the hard copy is
14 available now.
15 Can the witness please be shown the paragraph ERN 01248102.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And it has been admitted under
17 what number, please? The exhibit number.
18 MR. WITHOPF: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
20 MR. WITHOPF: This one -- I apologise. This one, Mr. President,
21 hasn't been admitted yet.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, then. So this is a
23 new exhibit, a new photo.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, it is.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to show the photo
1 to the witness, then.
2 MR. WITHOPF:
3 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, can you
4 please tell us what you can see on this photograph.
5 A. I can see the cells in the grammar school which have been
6 redecorated in the meantime and turned into a workshop. The cells have
7 been tidied up. But I recognise the windows.
8 Q. Do you recognise the room on this photograph as the cell you were
10 A. Yes. I am 100 per cent sure that this is the cell. I recognise
11 the window.
12 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, can you please date and sign the photograph.
13 Today is the 12th of February, 2004.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, can you
15 put your name on the photo and today's date.
16 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show the photo
18 to the Prosecution, to the Defence, to the accused.
19 The Chamber makes note of the name, of the date.
20 Can we have a number, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit P64.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P64.
23 We have five minutes before the break.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. For how long, Mr. Marijanovic, were you detained in this cell of
1 the school?
2 A. I can't tell you exactly. Maybe 10, 15, or even 20 days.
3 Q. And what happened afterwards? Were you released or were you
4 brought to where else -- somewhere else?
5 A. They took us to another basement, this time to the basement of a
6 furniture store.
7 Q. And in saying "they took us to another basement," namely the
8 basement of the furniture store, whom are you referring to when you say
10 A. They came in a van that looked like a refrigerator lorry, and
11 they put us in. We were like pigs in that van. They drove us around the
12 town. And then they unloaded us. I said, "Why did it take you so long
13 to bring us to a place which is only two minutes away?" My conclusion
14 was that they wanted to somehow mask where they were taking us. They
15 didn't want us to know where we were being taken.
16 Q. And this furniture salon you were brought to, how far away is it
17 actually from the school you were detained first?
18 A. I don't know. 100 or maybe 150 metres approximately. I never
19 measured the distance.
20 Q. Once you arrived, Mr. Marijanovic, once you arrived at the
21 furniture salon, what did happen to you?
22 A. They put us in the basement. The basement was flooded. There
23 were no seats. There was nowhere for us to sit or -- we had to stand in
24 the water. The situation was desperate.
25 Q. Were all detainees from the school brought to the Slavonija
1 Furniture Salon?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And for clarification, what did happen to your wife and your
4 daughter, who were also detained in the school?
5 A. They were transferred to the Vojin Paleksic School.
6 Q. You were just about, Mr. Marijanovic, just about to describe the
7 room you were detained in the furniture -- Slavonija Furniture Salon.
8 What was the size, roughly, of this room?
9 A. Maybe about half the size of this room, but the conditions were
10 terrible. The room was flooded. Not even mice could live there.
11 Q. What does it actually mean, "the room was flooded"? Can you
12 please provide us with some more detail.
13 A. Water was up to our ankles or even higher. There was some 10
14 centimetres of water on the floor.
15 Q. And do you recall how many prisoners were detained in this
16 basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon?
17 A. In the grammar school cells, there were 35 to 40 people in every
18 cell, so you can do the maths. And some other people were taken as well.
19 Q. Does this mean that in the Slavonija Furniture Salon, in the
20 basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon there were not only detainees
21 from the grammar school?
22 A. No, there were others too.
23 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the ethnic
24 background of the people detained in the Slavonija Furniture Salon.
25 A. Most of them were Croats. As far as I know, there was only one
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think it would be
3 best to have a break now. It is ten to 4.00. We'll have a half-an-hour
4 break and we'll resume at twenty past 4.00.
5 Witness, during this half-an-hour break, the usher will enable
6 you to get some fresh air and we will resume in half an hour.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume. There's been
10 a change in the Defence team. The Trial Chamber would like to greet
11 Mr. Bourgon, who has just arrived.
12 Can we proceed, or would you like to wait for Mrs. Residovic to
14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll take the place
15 of Mrs. Residovic for a short while, but she will be joining us soon, so
16 we may continue.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We may proceed.
18 Please go ahead, Mr. Withopf.
19 MR. WITHOPF:
20 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, you were just informing the Trial Chamber that
21 in the basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon the detainees were all
22 Croats and one Serb detainee. The detainees, were they soldiers or were
23 they civilians?
24 A. There were some civilians, but most of them were soldiers.
25 Q. I'm going to show you now, Mr. Marijanovic, a further photograph.
1 It will appear on the screen in front of you and you will also be given a
2 hard copy.
3 MR. WITHOPF: And the hard copies are available for distribution.
4 And for the information of the Trial Chamber and Defence, this photograph
5 was taken in the course of 2002 in the course of the investigation
6 against the two accused.
7 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you
8 can see on this photograph in front of you.
9 A. This is the building of the furniture salon, of the furniture
10 shop. But in the basement they had storage space, and the shop was
11 upstairs, and there were some offices upstairs.
12 Q. Is this the building in whose basement you were detained?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, Mr. Marijanovic, can you please date - today is the 12th
15 of February, 2004 - and sign the photograph.
16 A. [Witness complies]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to
18 ask the witness a question.
19 Can you leave the photograph there before the witness.
20 Witness, you said that the furniture shop was in that building.
21 In 1993, when you were taken to that building, what we can see to the
22 right, it seems to be a car park, a three-storey car park. Did that
23 exist at the time? So the building to the right in the photograph, did
24 it exist at the time, as far as you can remember?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, it didn't
1 exist then.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And to the left, we
3 can see a large building that consists of a number of floors. There are
4 -- it's a block of flats. And we can see some satellites. At the time,
5 did this building exist, this building with the satellite dishes?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when you were taken to the
8 building, the person -- the persons who lived in the building to the left
9 may have seen you arrive; is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, some did and some didn't. I
11 don't know exactly who saw that event and how much they saw.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Mr. Withopf, do you want to tender this document into evidence?
14 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, I wish to tender this document into evidence.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit
16 number, Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P65.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P65.
19 MR. WITHOPF:
20 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, I'm now going to show you another photograph.
21 It will appear on the screen in front of you and you will again be given
22 a hard copy.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Again, this photograph was taken in 2002 in the
24 course of the investigation against the accused Hadzihasanovic and
1 A. I'll never forget this building. That is the basement in
2 Slavonija ^Slavonjalis.
3 Q. You already started to tell us what you can see on the
4 photograph. Is this the basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon you
5 were detained?
6 A. Yes. And you can see that there was water in the basement.
7 Q. What you can see on this photograph, Mr. Marijanovic - the
8 photograph was taken years later in 2002 - however, does this
9 photograph -- is the situation in respect to the water on the floor
10 similar to the situation you faced during your detention in 1993?
11 A. Well, perhaps it was no worse, but no better either.
12 Q. Very well. Mr. Marijanovic, can you please again, please sign
13 the photograph and date it.
14 A. [Witness complies]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar,
16 could we have an exhibit number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P66.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P66.
19 Please carry on.
20 MR. WITHOPF:
21 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, for how long have you been detained in this
22 basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon?
23 A. Well, 15 or 20 days, but I don't know how long exactly.
24 Q. And for the duration of your detention in the basement of the
25 Slavonija Furniture Salon, was there any light in the basement?
1 A. There wasn't any light, but the nuns would give us some oil and
2 some of the men had bandages which we used as filters. So this provided
3 us with a little light and enabled us to avoid treading in the water
4 where it was a little deeper.
5 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the sanitary
6 conditions in this basement whilst you were detained.
7 A. Well, the sanitary conditions -- you can see the water. We would
8 go up. They would only allow us to go to the toilet and get some water
10 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the food you
11 were provided with, if any.
12 A. Well, we didn't get any food there. All we got is what the
13 civilians would bring us.
14 Q. Are you aware of any beatings whilst you were detained in the
15 basement of the Slavonija Furniture Salon?
16 A. Yes, of course. They'd put paper bags over their heads so that
17 we couldn't recognise them. Young Havro died. He died as a result of
18 the beating. Havranek died.
19 Q. Did the beatings take place in the basement, in the detention
20 cell, or somewhere else?
21 A. Up in the shop. There was a sort of warehouse downstairs.
22 They'd take people up to the shop, and they had various implements up
23 there. They'd have those paper bags, various things. They'd use
24 whatever they could get their hands on.
25 Q. And can you please provide us with some more detail what they
1 actually used for the beatings.
2 A. There were wooden implements, rods -- iron rods, truncheons,
3 police truncheons, various sorts of things.
4 Q. And how did you get to know about these implements which were
5 used for the beatings?
6 A. There was a toilet upstairs, and when we passed by it, we would
7 see these weapons, the truncheons and the bags that they used.
8 Q. And how often -- how often were the beatings inflicted on the
10 A. I don't know the exact number. It depended on the shift, and
11 sometimes it would just occur to someone. One person would call another
12 one to join in. People were afraid that they would be beaten, that they
13 would call out to the others to beat them.
14 Q. A few minutes ago, you said, Mr. Marijanovic, that one of the
15 detainees - namely, Havranek, died as a result of the beating. Can you
16 please provide the Trial Chamber with more details about the death of
17 Mr. Havranek.
18 A. Well, they called him. We heard him groaning, shouting. He
19 said, "Stop." He told them to stop beating him. He was not able to
20 move. They called the men from the basement to take him to the clinic.
21 And after five or six steps -- well, I went with these young men to see
22 who would be carrying him. And I saw when five or six of them got hold
23 of Havranek, I saw that he seemed to be bleeding inside. The clinic
24 isn't far, but he died in their hands.
25 Q. You are making reference to the fact that "they called him."
1 Whom are you actually referring to? Who are "they"?
2 A. Well, those guards, the troops, whatever they called them. The
3 people who guarded us.
4 Q. You are saying the troops? Just for clarification, the one who
5 is guarded you, were they soldiers?
6 A. They were all in uniform.
7 Q. And to your knowledge, which army did they form part of?
8 A. The BH army.
9 Q. Were the soldiers of the BiH army who guarded you the ones who
10 beat you as well?
11 A. Well, they had shifts which would change. So sometimes you
12 wouldn't be able to recognise them since they'd put paper bags on your
14 Q. How did you get to know, Mr. Marijanovic, that the detainee with
15 the name Havranek died in their hands whilst taken to the clinic?
16 A. Well, I found out about that immediately, when I saw that he had
17 internal bleeding and that his stomach was swelling. And after they'd
18 taken five or six steps in the direction of the clinic, he died. When
19 the young men returned, they would say that young Havranek had died.
20 Q. And the young men who tried to bring Mr. Havranek to the clinic,
21 were they also detained together with you in the furniture salon?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Havranek, whose son was Mr. Havranek, if you recall?
24 A. He was the son of Stasko Havranek.
25 Q. Whilst you were detained in the furniture salon, Mr. Marijanovic,
1 did there come a time when you were taken out for interrogation?
2 A. Yes. I don't know who this person was, perhaps a lawyer. He
3 didn't introduce himself. He asked me whether I'd fired any shots. I
4 said, "Please have a look at my weapon and you'll see for yourself that
5 it hasn't been used."
6 Q. And do you still recall where you were taken to for the
8 A. It was a sports building where they'd play handball, basketball.
9 That's where they took us. It was in the vicinity.
10 Q. And after the interrogation, were you brought back to the
11 Slavonija Furniture Salon?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You told us that you were detained in the Slavonija Furniture
14 Salon for a number of days. Did there come a time when you were
15 transferred to somewhere else? And if so, can you please tell us where
17 A. Yes. Occasionally they would call me to clean the area around
18 the building, and then we were transferred to the stadium.
19 Q. Does this stadium have a name?
20 A. It was Iskra Stadium. The name of the football club was Iskra at
21 the time, so we called it the Iskra Stadium.
22 Q. And in which town is this Iskra Stadium located?
23 A. It wasn't far. Behind a stream -- over a stream, where you could
24 build such a building. There was sufficient space there. But it was
25 closer to the town than is usually the case when stadiums are built.
1 Q. The town you are referring to, is it Bugojno?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit
4 P62. We will only use the Sanction technology.
5 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, in front of you on the screen you do see a
6 building. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you can see.
7 A. This is the Iskra Stadium. And I will remember this building for
8 as long as I live. This part of the building was built so that they
9 could detain us there. You see that this part of the building is under
10 the stands.
11 Q. For the record, the witness identifies the building in
12 Prosecution Exhibit P62 as the FC Iskra Stadium building in which he was
14 Mr. Marijanovic, once you were transferred to the FC Iskra
15 Stadium what did happen to you?
16 A. We stayed there for a while. After some time, 50 of us were
17 transferred to Gornji Vakuf to dig trenches there.
18 Q. Let's go step by step, Mr. Marijanovic. You stayed there for a
19 while. Did you actually stay in a cell?
20 A. It was a common room. What you see on the very left is something
21 that was added on subsequently. Those were not cells. They were
22 somewhat larger rooms, larger than a normal cell.
23 Q. And how many people were detained together with you in this
24 larger room?
25 A. There were about 300 people there once they were all brought in.
1 There were 300 people altogether.
2 Q. And were the 300 people altogether all detained in the very same
3 larger room?
4 A. Yes. We all shared that one large room, until the moment the
5 smaller room was added to the complex at the far-left end.
6 Q. Can you please inform us about the ethnic background of the
7 detainees in the FC Iskra Stadium.
8 A. I've already told you. The majority, maybe 99 per cent, were
9 Croats. There was just one Serb, if I can remember correctly.
10 Q. And again, the question - and it relates to the FC Iskra Stadium,
11 Mr. Marjanovic - the detainees, were they soldiers or civilians, or a
12 mixture of both?
13 A. There were all sorts of people. There were elderly people. Some
14 of them were even older than -- than I am now.
15 Q. And were there also soldiers amongst them, amongst the detainees?
16 A. Yes, there were.
17 Q. And the elderly people, the ones you are identifying as being --
18 having been older than you are now, were they soldiers or civilians?
19 A. They were civilians.
20 Q. Who guarded the FC Iskra Stadium whilst you were detained there?
21 A. At that time, all the guards wore uniform. Their commander was
22 somebody called Kukavica. I don't know whether this was his nickname or
23 his family name. The guards worked in shifts.
24 Q. And do you know, Mr. Marijanovic, which army the guards in
25 uniforms formed part of?
1 A. They would always tell me that they belonged to the BH army.
2 Q. Whilst you were detained in the FC Iskra Stadium, did you become
3 aware of any beatings inflicted on the detainees?
4 A. Yes. People would be taken to the bank. A few people were
5 beaten. I was also beaten, together with another person called Zeljo.
6 We were beaten on the stands. His glasses were broken. And the others
7 were taken to the Beobanka building, to the basement of that building.
8 When they came back, we could see them walking very slowly and with a lot
9 of difficulty. And we could also see bruises on their bodies.
10 Q. Can you please provide the Trial Chamber with some more details
11 about the beatings inflicted on you.
12 A. On one occasion, I was taken out to the stands together with
13 Zeljo from Gornji Vakuf. On another occasion, as I was on my way to the
14 toilet, we were forced to run the gauntlet and we were beaten.
15 Q. Were other detainees beaten as well?
16 A. We were all beaten in a similar way. Some were beaten more
17 heavily; some were beaten less heavily. I don't know whether everybody
18 was beaten, but most of us were.
19 Q. And the ones who beat you, were they the same ones as guarding
20 the FC Iskra Stadium?
21 A. Almost the same people. They didn't use batons or sticks because
22 they were afraid that people who came to visit us would see tools in
23 their hands. That's why we would be taken to the stands, so that people
24 who were watching from the direction of Bugojno could not see how we were
25 being beaten.
1 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, I'm now going to show you a further photograph.
2 And it will appear on the screen in front of you and you will also be
3 given a hard copy.
4 A. This is the Iskra Stadium, with the stands.
5 Q. You already answered my question, Mr. Marijanovic. Are these the
6 stands where you and the others were beaten?
7 A. A hundred per cent.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Again, this photograph has been taken in 2002 in
9 the course of the investigation against the two accused.
10 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, again, can you please sign the photograph and
11 date it.
12 A. [Witness complies]
13 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this photograph
14 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, thank you very much.
16 Mr. Registrar, can we have a number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P67.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. WITHOPF:
20 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, for how long were you detained in the FC Iskra
21 Stadium in Bugojno?
22 A. Altogether, eight months. And if you deduct the time that I
23 spent in Gornji Vakuf, where I was for 30 to 50 days, then you can do the
24 maths and come to the figure, the number of days that I spent at the
25 stadium. I was detained for eight months altogether.
1 Q. Can you please provide, Mr. Marijanovic, some detail about the
2 sanitary conditions in the FC Iskra Stadium.
3 A. There was just one toilet, which was clogged. So we had to use
4 makeshift toilets. We only had one hose for water, and at their whim
5 they would turn the tap on to allow us to fill bottles with water. But
6 that was at their own whim. There was no soap. There was nothing to use
7 to wash ourselves with. There was nothing. No hygiene could be
9 Q. Can you please also inform us about the food conditions whilst
10 you were detained in the FC Iskra Stadium.
11 A. At first we didn't have anything. And later on they would bring
12 us lentils or something. The food I had never heard of or seen. It's
13 something that you wouldn't even give to pigs. And then civilians
14 started bringing us food when they allowed them to do that. If they
15 hadn't done that and if civilians hadn't brought us food, I don't know
16 what would have happened to us.
17 Q. And can you please also tell us how and where you slept.
18 A. At first we slept on the concrete floor, on the bare concrete
19 floor. And later on, the guys who were sent out to work brought some
20 wooden boards back and we used that to sleep on. And then the
21 International Community brought us a blanket each, and we used that for
22 bedding. And this was a big improvement.
23 Q. Do you recall for how long you had to sleep on the concrete
25 A. It must have been for more than 20 or even 30 days.
1 Q. You were mentioning earlier on, Mr. Marijanovic, that you were
2 taken out to Gornji Vakuf. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber who
3 took you out to Gornji Vakuf and what you actually did in Gornji Vakuf.
4 A. The army from Gornji Vakuf came with a lorry, and they took 50 of
5 us up there. And then they assigned us to various tasks. We had to dig
6 trenches, canals. We had to erect brick walls for protection.
7 Q. The army from Gornji Vakuf, are you referring to the ABiH?
8 A. Yes, I'm referring to the BH army. Of course.
9 Q. You were just saying, Mr. Marijanovic, that you had to dig --
10 amongst other things, that you had to dig trenches. Can you please
11 provide us with some more detail about the trench-digging.
12 A. I and two other men were forced to dig trenches on the so-called
13 Relej. It's a hill, a very steep hill. I was forced to do that for a
14 few days. But then they could see that I couldn't move easily. The
15 slope was very steep. I was transferred then to do something else, and
16 the other two continued digging the trench on that hill slope.
17 Q. And who did force you to dig trenches and the others?
18 A. The BH army. They were all in uniform.
19 Q. And whilst you were forced digging trenches by the ABiH, did
20 there come a time when you were exposed to some fire?
21 A. Not me personally, but another man was killed and two other men
22 were injured.
23 Q. The trenches you and the others were forced to dig by ABiH army
24 soldiers, were they close to any HVO positions?
25 A. Yeah, the distance was about 200 metres or thereabouts.
1 Q. And how did it happen that a man, to your knowledge, was killed
2 and two other men were injured whilst digging trenches?
3 A. The two were wounded on this hill. One was wounded in the hip,
4 and the other in the butt. Anto Barisic was wounded in the hip, and
5 Dominik Bozo was wounded in his butt. Zeljo was killed. I believe that
6 he was killed from a sniper. And they said that it was our guys who did
7 that. The distance was so big that I believe that he was shot from a
9 Q. Anto Barisic and Dominik Bozo --
10 A. Yes, they were wounded. Yes.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know what
12 the objective of these questions is; however, for five or six minutes the
13 Prosecution has been asking questions which are not relevant to the
15 Secondly, the area of Gornji Vakuf was not the area under the
16 control of the 3rd Corps, so I don't see the point of the questions that
17 fall within this scope. I don't know why this witness is being asked
18 these questions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Withopf, I believe
20 that your questions refer to the fact that the prisoners were taken out
21 to the front line to dig trenches. The other things that you've
22 mentioned do not form part of the indictment and are not relevant to the
23 indictment. Have you taken note of the observations made by the Defence?
24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I certainly have taken
25 note of the observations made by the Defence. I, however, wish to draw
1 the attention of both the Trial Chamber and Defence to the respective
2 portions of the Prosecution's pre-trial brief, in which the relevance of
3 these events is detailed.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's on page 104 and
5 105, where you indicate that "Prisoners were taken to dig trenches on the
6 front line" and that "they didn't receive food at regular intervals."
7 But you don't mention that they were exposed to sniper fire and that one
8 of them was killed. This is not in the indictment. However, he said it
9 spontaneously, without being prompted.
10 You may proceed.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would, however,
13 ask for the Prosecution not to be allowed to continue asking questions
14 about prisoners being taken to do work for another reason. The
15 Prosecution did have such counts in the indictment; however, objections
16 were raised to the indictment and the Trial Chamber ordered for the
17 indictment to be amended and in the Second Amended Indictment the
18 Prosecutor withdrew those counts. The Third Indictment does not contain
19 these counts either. And since the Prosecutor asked the same questions
20 of the previous witness and continues with this witness again, I would
21 kindly ask the Trial Chamber to order the Prosecution not to pursue this
22 line of questioning.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I believe
24 that he should not pursue this line of questioning.
25 Mr. Withopf.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Again, I refer to the respective portions of the
2 Prosecution's pre-trial brief, in which the relevance of this line of
3 questioning is detailed. Unfortunately, I don't have the pre-trial brief
4 in front of me, therefore I can't make reference to the specific
5 paragraphs. However, it's the view of the Prosecution that these issues
6 pertain to Count 4, Cruel Treatment, of the Third Amended Indictment.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the documents in English, on
8 page 58, it says that "The prisoners were taken to dig trenches. They
9 did forced labour on the front line." That's in paragraph 125.
10 MR. WITHOPF: Completely correct, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: It's correct?
12 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, that's correct. I am just about to check it
13 on the electronic version, and you are making reference to the exact
14 right paragraph. It's paragraph 125 of the Prosecution's pre-trial
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It has been indicated that the
17 prisoners did do forced labour, and the rest is just marginal. He told
18 us that he had been taken to a certain place to do work. What he didn't
19 say in his response was who the enemies were. Were they Serbs? Were
20 they Croats? Who were the trenches being dug against? Who was on the
21 other side?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croats.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were Croats. This
24 clarifies things for me. So Croats were shooting at you while you were
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wouldn't have shot at me. I
2 could walk around freely. And there were a few of us who were in the
3 group, and they would not shoot at us. If they had been shooting, they
4 would have wounded me.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. But you're
6 saying that they did shoot. It is not in the indictment. Spontaneously,
7 you said that they did shoot.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did shoot. I don't know
9 who they shot at. I know that two people were wounded. Where the shots
10 came from, I don't know. I was there with a few other people. I was
11 walking around. Nobody shot at me. I did not hear a bullet whiz by me.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
13 Mr. Withopf, can you please proceed. The witness is in excellent
14 form. I believe that he can continue.
15 If you at any point feel tired, Witness, please tell us and we
16 shall make a break. Do you want a break now?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not necessary. I can
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
20 But the Prosecution is going to be very expeditious, and we are
21 going to gain some time.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I'm actually
23 very close to finishing the examination-in-chief.
24 Q. Once you were brought back to the FC Iskra Stadium in Bugojno,
25 did the beatings continue?
1 A. Well, there was less and less beating. They saw that we weren't
2 putting up any resistance, that we didn't want to escape, that we did
3 good work, and then they returned us in the rain. We worked -- we walked
4 throughout the day, and there was nowhere to get dry down there.
5 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Marijanovic, did there come a time when
6 representatives of the Red Cross visited the FC Iskra Stadium?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do you still have a rough recollection as to when it was?
9 A. I can't remember exactly, but they visited us on two occasions
10 and brought us blankets on two occasions and jackets of some kind. Some
11 people didn't have anything to wear. It was getting cold. But I can't
12 remember the exact date.
13 Q. Was it after you came back from Gornji Vakuf?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. You already touched upon this issue earlier on. Who to your
16 knowledge was in charge of the FC Iskra Stadium whilst you were detained?
17 A. I knew about Meho, who was a plumber. I don't know his surname.
18 And Kukavica, who was in charge of the guards.
19 Q. This person called Meho - and I assume it's a first name - and
20 the person called Kukavica - and I assume it's a last name - were they
22 A. Yes, of course.
23 Q. They were soldiers of which army?
24 A. Of the BH army.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marijanovic.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you. The Prosecution has no further
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, just
4 before giving the floor to the Defence, there are a few matters I would
5 like to clarify.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to
8 something you said earlier on in response to a question put to you by the
9 Prosecution, that you were a member of the HVO. Does that mean that you
10 were a member of the military or were you a civilian? What was your
11 status within the HVO?
12 A. Well, they called me to the HVO. They said, "You're not yet 65
13 years old, and it is your duty to join." So there was nothing else to
14 do. But I was more of a guard.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're not receiving the
16 interpretation of what you are saying into English and into French. I
17 would like to address the interpreters, the booths.
18 Very well. As you were a guard, did you have a weapon? Did you
19 have a rifle? Did you have a pistol? Or did you have insignia of any
21 A. I had a rifle and a uniform. But we were on duty for one week,
22 and then for the following week we would be free.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When you were
24 stopped - I verified this in the transcript - when you were arrested, you
25 said that you were in civilian clothing. So when you were arrested --
1 A. Yes, I was on leave.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were arrested, were
3 you a civilian or a member of the military? In your opinion, were you a
4 civilian at that time?
5 A. I don't know what they thought. They knew I was a soldier. But
6 at the time I was in civilian clothes, in short trousers, because it was
7 summer. But as to what they thought, they never made this clear.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 When you were in the furniture shop in which there was water --
10 and we have seen that a number of years later they still hadn't repaired
11 the furniture shop, because there was still water inside. When you were
12 in this furniture shop and your feet were in the water -- you said this
13 very rapidly, and perhaps someone missed this, but not the Trial Chamber,
14 that is paying particular attention to all the details. You said that
15 there were nuns who came to provide you with food or clothes. Were these
16 nuns aware of your detention conditions?
17 A. Yes, of course. They sent us oil for the lights. And if they
18 had any food, they'd bring it. But they took more to the stadium.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And apart from bringing you oil
20 or food, what did they do? Didn't they inform the authorities of your
21 situation, or didn't they inform their superiors of your situation? What
22 did the nuns actually do?
23 A. Well, I believe that they informed someone. I don't know. I'm
24 not sure. But everyone in Bugojno was aware of situation, and so I think
25 that they were aware of it too.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, would you
2 like to have a break or do you feel capable of continuing and answering
3 further questions? Would you like to have a break now, or shall we
5 A. I'd like to have a short break.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have a short
7 break, a 20-minute break, which should allow you to rest. And we will
8 resume in 20 or 25 minutes' time. Let's say that we could resume at
9 quarter to 6.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel may proceed
13 with its cross-examination.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Marijanovic. My name is Edina
17 Residovic, and I represent General Enver Hadzihasanovic. I'd be grateful
18 if you could answer some of my questions.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
20 inform you that I will ask the witness a number of questions of a general
21 nature. I assume that the witness could answer these questions, and they
22 are of interest for the Defence.
23 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, you have already told the Trial Chamber that you
24 spent most of your life in Bugojno; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You know that in the elections immediately before the war broke
2 out nationalist parties won in Bugojno, the HDZ obtained a majority and
3 the SDA as the Muslim nationalist party. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was clear that in the course of the war in the Republic of
6 Croatia the Serbian population in Bugojno and the surroundings were
7 arming themselves; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In March 1992, the Serbian forces and the JNA attacked the
10 villages around Bugojno. They then took Kupres municipality and after
11 that, the municipality of Donji Vakuf, not far from Bugojno. Are you
12 aware of that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Bugojno itself, they started shelling Bugojno in May 1992; isn't
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. A state of war was declared in the country and general
18 mobilisation; isn't that correct?
19 In May 1992, the first HVO brigade was formed in Bugojno, and its
20 name was the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade; isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Later in February 1993 another three Home Guard Battalions were
23 formed. They formed one regiment. Isn't that correct?
24 A. Well, I wouldn't agree with that. Three battalions were
25 established. It wasn't transferred into a regiment, because they didn't
1 have a given number. That's how I was informed, at least.
2 Q. Very well. But in response to a question put to you by the Trial
3 Chamber, you said you'd been mobilised into the HVO. Were you a member
4 of the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade or one of these newly established
6 A. I was a member of the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade.
7 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, would it be correct to say that because of the
8 wartime operations and the temporary occupation of the territory by the
9 JNA and the Serbian forces a large number of refugees started arriving in
10 Bugojno from Donji Vakuf and Kupres, later on from Prozor and other
11 places; from Jajce?
12 A. You are not going to mention Zepa and Srebrenica?
13 Q. Is it correct to say that a large number of refugees arrived in
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. However, since the vicinity of the combat lines -- since the
17 combat lines were near, many of the inhabitants of Bugojno left Bugojno
18 because they were afraid of the war and the consequence of the war. They
19 went to the Republic of Croatia and abroad. They went to safer places.
20 Isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. One could say that up until the summer of 1993 many people left,
23 mothers and children in particular. So just before the conflict that you
24 have mentioned broke out, about 7.000 Croats from Bugojno remained there;
25 is that correct?
1 A. More or less.
2 Q. The majority of the refugees we have mentioned were Bosniaks.
3 They were Muslims. So that the ethnic composition in 1993 was
4 significantly changed; isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The refugees who arrived there had in fact been expelled and they
7 arrived there without any possessions, so this caused a big problem in
8 Bugojno as far as accommodation and food was concerned.
9 A. Well, in some cases, yes.
10 Q. Do you know that in 1993 in certain areas - Vitez, Novi Travnik,
11 and Gornji Vakuf - an open armed conflict broke out between the army and
12 the HVO as well?
13 A. In 1993? No, I'm not aware of that. In 1993, the HVO held the
14 lines, because the Serbs were on Kupres. There were troops at the lines.
15 They couldn't have started an armed conflict of any kind.
16 Q. Perhaps you have misunderstood me. I didn't say that that was in
17 Bugojno. I asked you whether you were aware of the fact that in other
18 areas, in Vitez, in Novi Travnik, in Gornji Vakuf, such conflicts broke
20 A. Well, there were rumours about that, but I don't know how correct
21 they were.
22 Q. Would it be true to say that in 1993, given the war and the fact
23 that the roads had been blocked, there were shortages in the town and
24 most of the inhabitants were using aids they would get from Caritas,
25 Merhamet, and other charities? Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, to a large extent, but Meho, who had a shop in Bugojno,
2 would bring in a lot of supplies and sell them. But I don't know how he
3 sold it. I don't know whether he was black marketeering. I don't know
4 how much he charged for these supplies. But he had significant supplies.
5 He had quality supplies.
6 Q. Yes. But the population on the whole fed themselves by using aid
7 provided by charities.
8 A. Which ones?
9 Q. Caritas and Merhamet.
10 A. Caritas provided food. I don't know about the Merhamet charity.
11 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, would it be correct to say that before the war
12 there was only a municipal court or a low court in Bugojno, which tried
13 misdemeanours, but in the case of serious offences people would go to the
14 high court or the district court in Zenica?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. Is it also correct to say that before the war in Bugojno there
17 was no prison where people could be sent to serve their sentences?
18 People were sent to the KP Dom in Zenica to serve their sentences.
19 A. Yes? But there was the MUP.
20 Q. There were basements and cells in the Bugojno police station.
21 Are you aware of that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But ten people at the most could be detained there; isn't that
25 A. I don't know what the capacity was.
1 Q. Would it be true to say that in the summer of 1993 in Bugojno and
2 after that date there was a shortage of water?
3 A. I wouldn't say so. I was in the centre of town, and I always had
5 Q. Very well. Perhaps other people in other parts of the town who
6 have testified about that had different experiences.
7 A. Perhaps. I don't know about that. All I can say is that I had
8 water, and my neighbours did too.
9 Q. That was while you were free; isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In May 1993, there were a number of incidents and an open
12 conflict broke out between the army and HVO units in Bugojno. This was
13 caused by the killing of some HVO and army members, and they would
14 capture soldiers that were members of the BH army or of the HVO, but the
15 commanders managed to solve the problem, isn't that correct, in May?
16 A. I wouldn't say so. Our army, the units - call it as you will -
17 had to flee from the lines that were held in the direction of Kupres,
18 towards the Serbian side. When they heard that the Muslims had started
19 causing these incidents and taking over Bugojno, they had to escape. Why
20 did the army escape from the lines?
21 Q. Are you referring to July 1993?
22 A. Yes, when the conflict broke out.
23 Q. But my question is: Did the first incidents occur in May? But
24 they were solved, weren't they?
25 A. Well, perhaps there were cafe skirmishes, minor skirmishes.
1 Perhaps there were sporadic skirmishes.
2 Q. Are you aware of the fact that on the 17th of July, at a
3 checkpoint in the village of Vrbanja, Miroslav Talenta, an HVO member,
4 was first killed and then three BH MUP members were killed? This
5 conflict then spread to the entire area of Bugojno.
6 A. I heard about that, but I'm not sure. This is just a rumour I
8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that this conflict in the town itself
9 lasted from the 18th of July until the 27th of July, when the last HVO
10 stronghold in Tito's villa in Gorica was taken by the BH army? Is that
12 A. I can't remember the date, but I do remember that it was taken.
13 Q. Throughout that time, in the town and its surroundings, there was
14 intense fighting; isn't that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'd now like to ask you about something you have already
17 testified about, about the period you spent in detention. You said that
18 you were captured between the 18th and 23rd of July.
19 A. Yes, something like that. I can't remember the exact date.
20 Q. Just before you were captured, you were in Bozo and Iva Ivkovic's
21 house; isn't that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Your daughter and wife were in the house with you, but Mario
24 Subasic and Vinko Ivkovic and Tomo Ivkovic were there too.
25 A. Yes, I have already stated that.
1 Q. Perhaps previously, but you haven't mentioned this fact before
2 this Trial Chamber.
3 A. You haven't asked me about it.
4 Q. Very well. I've asked you about it now, and you have answered my
6 Is it true to say that Mario Subasic and Vinko Ivkovic were
7 members of the HVO, they were members of the 2nd Battalion?
8 A. Yes. And Tomo, who was killed in that house, was also a member.
9 Q. Tomo Ivkovic was with you?
10 A. Tomo Ivkovic, who died in that house, was killed there.
11 Q. He had his own sniper rifle.
12 A. No, no one had a sniper rifle.
13 Q. Mario Subasic, Tomo and Vinko had weapons.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the course of the shooting in town, which is where you were,
16 they shot at your house and Mario and Vinko returned fire from the house;
17 isn't that correct?
18 A. No. You're not well informed. My house was mined, but they
19 first opened fire on Ivkovic's house from the mosque, and then they
20 returned fire.
21 Q. So while this attack was carried out and fire was returned, in
22 this exchange of fire Nuhefendic Admir a member of the army was killed.
23 He was a well-known handball player.
24 A. I don't know what he was well known for, but I know that he was
1 Q. And in the house where you were, Tomo Ivkovic was killed; isn't
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It was only after that event that you, who were in the house,
5 decided to surrender.
6 A. Well, they forced us to do so with their shells. We had to
8 Q. Your daughter, you said she was 19 or 20 years old, was a medical
9 technician --
10 A. No. You're misinformed.
11 Q. Was she an HVO member?
12 A. She was a secretary. She must have been a member of the 2nd
14 Q. Very well. So apart from your wife, all of you in the house were
15 HVO members; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now I want to ask you about something else. Before the conflicts
18 in Bugojno, the HVO wore camouflage uniforms; isn't that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. BH army members also wore camouflage uniforms.
21 A. Yes. They were stored in the mosque. When the Mujahedin
22 arrived, they also provided them with clothes.
23 Q. The civilian police also wore camouflage uniforms; isn't that
25 A. I knew some of them, and I didn't know others, because I couldn't
1 move around Bugojno very much at the time.
2 Q. Yes. But before the conflict, throughout 1993, you saw that the
3 HVO, the police, and the army wore camouflage uniforms.
4 A. Yes, the military police, but not the civilian police.
5 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, you yourself said a while ago that you have
6 already given a statement to investigators from The Hague Tribunal. That
7 was in the year 2000 and 2001. Isn't that correct?
8 A. Yes, more or less. But I can't remember the exact date.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to refresh the witness's
10 memory, I would like to show him his statement, but I won't be tendering
11 it into evidence. I have both the English and B/C/S version of the
12 statement. And in order to be able to follow everything, I have a copy
13 in English for the Trial Chamber.
14 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, is this the statement that you gave?
15 A. Just give me a moment to look at it.
16 Q. Take your time.
17 A. Yes, this is my statement.
18 Q. Very well, then. To the Prosecutor's question, on page 26, Line
19 21; page 30, line 27; page 30, line 17; then page 41, line 1; page 44,
20 line 19; page 45, line 18; page 53, line 12, you answered every time that
21 you were arrested by the BH army, that you were beaten by the BH army,
22 that you were guarded by the BH army, and so on and so forth. I will not
23 repeat your words, because this is what you have stated.
24 Can you please look at your statement now. On page 2 -- please
25 look at your statement. The penultimate paragraph, which starts with "We
1 all came down the stairs and surrendered to the Muslims."
2 In the last sentence, you say: "They also had green headbands
3 and green head scarves over their head. They had green camouflage
4 uniforms and green ribbons." Did you state that?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. On page 2, in paragraph 6, beginning with the following words
7 "During my stay," you said: "During my stay of two or three days in this
8 detention facility, I didn't learn who was responsible for running it."
9 And then in paragraph 7, you say -- actually, on page 4 -- is
10 this what you said, is this what is written?
11 A. I didn't learn until the moment I arrived at the stadium.
12 Q. So at the moment, you didn't know who was running it; is that
14 Let's move on to page 4. Open your statement on page 4, please.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is that page 4 in B/C/S or page
16 4 in English?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It's in B/C/S.
18 That is why I'm reading the first couple of words. Page 4, paragraph 6
19 starts with the following words: "I heard that the Muslims used to cover
20 the heads of the prisoners with a paper bag so that he was not able to
21 see who were the soldiers who were beating them upstairs."
22 Q. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that is 100 per cent correct.
24 Q. In the following paragraph, it says: "When going to the toilet,"
25 the penultimate sentence says: "I can't tell you what unit the soldiers
1 were from." Is that what you said?
2 A. That's true. They only told me that they were BH army soldiers.
3 They never mentioned the name of their unit.
4 Q. On page 6, paragraph 4, when you arrived at the stadium, third
5 sentence says: "I didn't pay attention to their insignia because I was
6 really scared."
7 Is it true, Mr. Marijanovic, that in the statement that you gave
8 earlier and that I quoted from you never mentioned that soldiers were
9 members of the BH army?
10 A. I always claimed that they themselves said that they were BH army
11 members. When I arrived at the stadium, they removed their headbands and
12 their armbands.
13 Q. However, the investigator who interviewed you did not enter that
14 fact in the statement; although, you may have told him that.
15 A. I don't know what he entered or what he didn't enter. It's not
16 my problem, is it?
17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, my learned colleague is stating:
20 "Is it true, Mr. Marijanovic, is that in the statement that you gave
21 earlier and that I quoted from you never mentioned that soldiers were
22 members of the BH army?" May I ask the witness to please read out the
23 fourth paragraph on page 1 of his statement.
24 Mr. Marijanovic, could you please read out the fourth paragraph
25 on page 1 of your statement in the B/C/S version.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you please read in
2 your own language.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have page 1. This is page
4 2. And I thought I was supposed to read from page 1, and this, however,
5 is page 2 of my statement.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is at the fourth
7 paragraph in the English version.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that I was arrested by the
9 BH army.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to say to
11 the Defence: You have told the witness that on several occasions he
12 mentioned the army but never the BH army. We have his written statement,
13 and it says in his written statement that in 1993 he was arrested by the
14 BH army. I'm reading from the English version. I suppose that it is the
15 same in the B/C/S version. Maybe he can explain why later on he never
16 mentioned the BH army again. Maybe that would be a proper explanation.
17 Proceed. You may continue asking your questions. I give you the
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have asked the
20 witness as precise as that. He was arrested by the BH army, but I have
21 quoted some other sentences from the statement about the events that he
22 was talking about today and mentioning the BH army. But in his
23 statement, he never mentioned the BH army. He never mentioned any of the
24 insignia. And he never mentioned who was in charge of any of these
25 facilities. That was the essence of my objection that I have about the
1 witness's testimony.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has made note of
3 your objection, but the Prosecution has also got an observation about
5 Maybe the investigator has mentioned the BH army and it was never
6 entered in the statement. Maybe that is why the BH army is not mentioned
7 in the rest of the sentence. But we will take this problem into account.
8 We have taken note of your observation, and we would like to hear
9 the position of the Prosecution. The Prosecution says that from the
10 beginning the witness claimed in his statement that he was arrested by
11 the BH army. Maybe Mr. Withopf would like to add something to that.
12 MR. WITHOPF: I would --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my words. They kept on
14 telling me that they were members of the BH army. I said that in my
15 statement. And when the Prosecutor asked me about who they were, I
16 always replied what they told me. They always told me that they were BH
17 army members. I was not in the position to ask them questions. They
18 asked me questions, rather than I asking them questions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, would you like to
21 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, two issues: I again oppose any attempt by my
22 learned colleague to state that the witness in his statement given to the
23 OTP investigator never mentioned the BiH army. In paragraph 4, on page 1
24 it's absolutely clear that he made reference to the Armija BiH, and it's
25 also clear from his B/C/S statement.
1 In respect to the answer the witness has just given,
2 Mr. Marijanovic, you are saying, "I stand by my words. They kept on
3 telling me that they were members of the BiH army." Whom are you
4 actually referring to if you say "they kept on telling me that they were
5 members of the BiH army"?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Muslims and the BH army. They were
7 mixed. There were a lot of them from Zepa, Srebrenica. There were
8 people whom I had never seen before. I don't know where they came from.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't understand
10 this manner. My learned friend will be in the position to do
11 re-examination of my examination-in-chief [as interpreted].
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right. The
13 Defence will continue its cross-examination, and then you will given the
14 floor for re-examination. The Chamber has made a note of the problem,
15 and we'll take it into consideration.
16 You may proceed.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, to the Prosecutor's question, you replied that
19 you stayed in the grammar school for some 15 or 20 days; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. But I also said that I was not sure about the duration of
21 time, that it seems to me that it was between 15 and 20 days.
22 Q. On page 33, line 4 of the transcript, you said, "10, 15, or 20
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On your statement on page 3 -- look at your statement, please,
1 page 3 of the B/C/S version, the paragraph which starts "During my
2 two-to-three-days' stay." And after that, there is another paragraph
3 which starts with the following words: "At about noontime on the second
4 or third day, all the persons from my cell were taken out to the yard of
5 the grammar school. There was a lorry there and we were all loaded onto
6 that lorry."
7 Is it true that the figures differ? If your testimony, you said
8 15 or 20 days; in your statement, you said 2 or 3 days.
9 A. It may be different, but I stand by my words that it was between
10 10 and 15 days, 10 or 15 days.
11 Q. Please look at page 4 of your statement. In paragraph 3, you are
12 talking about your stay in the furniture store. Earlier on today, on
13 page 38, line 23 you said that you had stayed in the furniture store for
14 15 or 20 days; is that correct?
15 A. It may be so. I can't remember. I'm not sure exactly. I can't
16 be sure of the number of days. We didn't pay too much attention to days
17 and dates. We just wanted to save our hide.
18 Q. On page 4 of your earlier statement, paragraph 3 - I'm talking
19 about the B/C/S version - you say: "I stayed there for three to five
20 days. We did not receive any food from the Muslims during that period of
22 Which then on page 6, paragraph 1 - can you please look at your
23 statement - you said: "Having spent some three to five days in the
24 furniture store, my name was called out. I went upstairs, and I was
25 loaded onto a truck. Again, I can't tell you anything about the soldiers
1 who were guarding us while we were being loaded onto the lorry. I was
2 looking at the ground. Before that, several names were called out, and I
3 believe that we were all taken out of the basement. When the lorry was
4 full, it took us to the Iskra Stadium." Is it correct that in your
5 statement you said that you had stayed in the furniture store for three
6 to five days and not 15 to 20 days, as you have stated before this Trial
8 A. It's easy to do the maths. You just add the days that I spent in
9 Gornji Vakuf, in one detention unit, in another detention unit, and you
10 will arrive at the truth of my stay.
11 Q. Is it true that these two statements are different? In one you
12 say 3 to 5 days; in the other, you say 15 to 20.
13 A. Well, it was a slip of the tongue.
14 Q. Is it true, Mr. Marijanovic, that while you were in the grammar
15 school the families of some of the detainees started bringing you food?
16 It was allowed. You shared that food.
17 A. No, not in the grammar school. It was in the furniture store and
18 at the stadium.
19 Q. In the grammar school, you received bread during the two or three
20 days that you were there, and you had water when you went to the toilet.
21 A. Yes, some received bread; some didn't. For example, I never
22 received any bread.
23 Q. While you were in the furniture shop, in response to a question
24 put to you by the Trial Chamber, you said that Sister Pavka and other
25 sisters brought you oil which you used for lights. They brought you food
1 and some clothes. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were never maltreated while you were in the furniture shop;
4 is that correct?
5 A. Well, I was on one occasion while I went out to clean. But I
6 wasn't beaten much. I wasn't maltreated much. They forced me to clean
7 around the shop.
8 Q. Throughout your stay in the grammar school, the furniture shop,
9 and the stadium, you never determined who was in charge of those prisons.
10 A. Well, they were Meho and Kukavica. How am I to find out who is
11 in charge? Who should I find this out from? I only went out to walk
12 around a bit and get a bit of water. There was no one I could ask about
13 this. How would you obtain such information?
14 Q. While you were at the Iskra Stadium, your families were also
15 allowed to bring you food; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes. But only after a certain period of time.
17 Q. It was also possible for you to go home with an escort or to go
18 to see friends in order to wash or take care of other needs.
19 A. You don't know the reasons. You don't know why I was never
20 allowed to do this. The detainees -- if they knew that some of the
21 detainees had rakija at home, plum brandy, then they would allow them to
22 go home. But they would never let me go home. This was a select group
23 that took them there. Only a chosen few went there.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marijanovic, for your answers.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd just like to point
3 something out to the Defence. I see that in the transcript, page 72,
4 line 17, you told the witness -- you said that Sister Pavka. But in the
5 written statement there is no Sister Pavka. If you're asking this
6 question, then you're referring to other documents or other information
7 that you have. Because in the written statement he spoke about Catholic
8 nuns, but no names appear. But you told the witness about someone called
9 Sister Pavka. I don't know where this is from, but it's not from his
10 written statement.
11 So on page 72, line 17, the English transcript contains the words
12 "Sister Pavka." You said that "Sister Pavka and other sisters brought
13 you oil," whereas Sister Pavka isn't referred to in the written
14 statement. So I don't know how you obtained this information, but this
15 Sister Pavka must have appeared from somewhere. Can you clarify this
16 matter for the Trial Chamber.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was probably the
18 result of your question about the nuns. The previous witness mentioned
19 this sister. I'll ask the witness now.
20 Q. Witness, was there a Sister Pavka among the nuns?
21 A. When there was an exchange, that's when Sister Pavka turned up.
22 When I came to Matina [phoen], that's when I heard that her name
23 was Sister Pavka.
24 Q. Had you seen this sister before? Did she take down your names?
25 A. No, not in my case.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I'd like to apologise to the
2 Trial Chamber. Because the previous witness who was also in the
3 furniture shop also mentioned that name, most likely, and as a result, I
4 had this sister in mind.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Is there any cross-examination for the other Defence team?
7 Mr. Dixon.
8 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no questions for
9 this witness. Mr. Kubura is not charged with any of the incidents that
10 this witness has given testimony about today. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Is there any re-examination on the part of the Prosecution?
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have a few questions
14 in re-examination.
15 Re-examined by Mr. Withopf:
16 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, I understand you still have the B/C/S version of
17 your statement you gave to the OTP investigator in front of you. Can you
18 please have a look.
19 A. I still stand by what I said, but sometimes I can forget certain
20 things. You understand. I'm old, perhaps a little senile. This
21 happened a long time ago, so it's possible for me to slip up sometimes.
22 Q. Mr. Marijanovic, do you have page 1 of this statement in front of
23 you? It reads on the heading "Izjava Svjedoka." It's actually page 2.
24 And can you please read out the first sentence of the fourth paragraph,
25 in your own language.
1 A. "On one Sunday in June 1993 I was arrested by the BH army."
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 A. "I'm not able to tell the exact date that I was captured, but it
4 was --"
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you have already mentioned
7 this. Please continue.
8 MR. WITHOPF: [Previous translation continues] ...
9 Q. Cross-examined by my learned colleague, Mr. Marijanovic, you were
10 saying that "They kept on telling me that they were members of the BiH
11 army." It's page 69, line 22. Who are you referring to when you are
12 saying "they kept on telling me that they were members of the BiH army"?
13 A. Well, mainly to the Muslims.
14 Q. To the Muslims who guarded and beat you and the other detainees?
15 A. Who were in the town, who opened fire, who were from the mosque
16 and fired. They did all sorts of things. Not only the ones who guarded
18 Q. And a very last question, Mr. Marijanovic: You have been
19 detained in the Gimnazija building. You have been detained, as you
20 informed us today, in the Slavonija Furniture Salon. And you have also
21 been detained in the FC Iskra Stadium. For how long altogether,
22 according to your recollection, have you been detained in all these three
23 detention facilities?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already said that
1 it was eight months. He said that in the course of the
2 examination-in-chief. There's no need to repeat the question.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the witness has answered in respect
4 to the FC Iskra Stadium that he was detained for eight months. The
5 question now is a different one. I'm asking the witness for how long
6 together he was detained in the Gimnazija building, in fact -- in the
7 Slavonija Furniture Salon, and the FC Iskra Stadium.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, in total.
9 Witness, from the time you were arrested until your release, how
10 much time passed? Have you understood my question?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Eight months.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Eight months. Very well.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. Marijanovic.
14 Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this concludes your
16 examination. As the Prosecution have concluded its examination-in-chief
17 and the Defence has also asked you a lot of questions about the context
18 and relevant facts, the Trial Chamber has also asked you a number of
19 questions, we would like to thank you for having testified before this
20 Tribunal, in spite of your medical difficulties. Thank you for having
21 made this effort and thank you for having testified about events that are
22 certainly painful events for you to remember.
23 We wish you a good trip home. The usher will now escort you out
24 of the courtroom and the Victims and Witnesses Units will take care of
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber notes that
3 the witness understands foreign languages.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the Prosecution
6 about our future schedule. Apparently we don't have any witnesses for
7 tomorrow. Can you confirm this?
8 MR. WITHOPF: Can we please go in private session?
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what we'll do.
10 Mr. Registrar, can we go into private session.
11 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're back in open
24 session now. We have dealt with all the items on the agenda. We have
25 heard all the witnesses. We will resume on Monday at 2.15. And
1 naturally, I invite everyone to be present at the sitting on Monday at
2 2.15. Thank you.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.43 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of
5 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.