1 Friday, 20 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing will commence.
6 Could Mr. Registrar call the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.
12 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, our assistant,
13 Mathias Neuner, and Kimberly Fleming, the case manager.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 And the appearances for the Defence.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
17 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane
18 Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, our legal assistant. Thank you.
19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
20 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic,
21 our legal assistant.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to
23 greet everyone present, the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and all
24 those present in the courtroom.
25 We'll continue with the examination of a witness.
1 Before we call the witness into the courtroom, with regard to the
2 schedule for the following week, it has been confirmed that the hearing on
3 Tuesday will be cancelled, so that we will be sitting on Wednesday all
4 day, in the morning and in the afternoon. I hope that won't exhaust you.
5 But as everyone will have the opportunity to have a rest on Tuesday, you
6 will be in very good shape for Wednesday, since we'll be starting at 9.00
7 and the hearing will be concluded at 7.00 p.m. We'll have two hearings,
8 one after the other, more or less, but we will have the usual breaks.
9 Unless the schedule is changed in the meantime, and we'll be informed of
10 that on Monday.
11 The Prosecution will ensure that the witnesses scheduled for
12 Tuesday will be ready to be examined on Wednesday, if that is necessary.
13 With regard to the video footage, the Judges have deliberated.
14 At this point in time, it is the opinion of the Judges that the relevance
15 can be established on the basis of the contents of the video itself. And
16 in addition, according to the Prosecution, this video relates to events of
17 which the victim was -- of which the witness was a victim. If the
18 evidence is not reliable, it has to be rejected. That is the
19 jurisprudence of this Tribunal. And this was the case in a number of
20 cases. For example, in Celebici. If evidence is not reliable and
21 decisions are taken to reject such evidence. But given that the witness
22 himself can provide information, will enable us to determine the nature of
23 the video, to determine whether this element, the element of reliability,
24 is one that can be counted on.
25 We'll now continue with the examination-in-chief, and we will be
1 viewing the video footage. Naturally, it's necessary to make a
2 distinction between the admissibility of evidence and its probative
3 weight. If a document is admissible, this does not mean that it is being
4 given probative weight, because the Judges will subsequently deliberate on
5 the basis of the documents, on the basis of the testimony of witnesses,
6 and on the basis of other elements that will be obtained through other
7 testimony or other evidence. Admissibility does not automatically imply
8 that the document in question has probative value. Probative value will
9 be determined by the Judges, who will assess all the relevant elements.
10 Yes, Mr. Withopf, would you like to make any comments?
11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
12 I wish to provide additional information on this video footage. For that
13 purpose, however, I would like to go into private session, please.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's go into
15 private session.
16 [Private session]
12 Page 3157 redacted, private session
12 Page 3158 redacted, private session
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 WITNESS: ZIVKO TOTIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Mr. Withopf: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Totic.
18 A. Good morning.
19 MR. WITHOPF: Can I please, again, ask the usher to remove the
20 ELMO, since I can't see the witness properly.
21 Thank you very much.
22 Mr. President, Your Honours, as announced and discussed, the
23 Prosecution will now show a video. It's about five minutes. And the
24 Prosecution will have a number of questions afterwards to the witness.
25 Q. Mr. Totic, you will see the video on the screen in front of you.
1 [Videotape played]
2 Q. Mr. Totic, after having seen this video footage, can you please
3 tell the Trial Chamber what one can see on this video footage.
4 A. Your Honours, that was the vehicle I was in, and that was
5 attacked on the 15th of April. Ivica Vidovic was the driver. When the
6 shooting started, he was the first one to be hit and he fell over me. At
7 the back, Marko Ljubic, one of the escorts, was sitting there; Tihomir
8 Ljubic, another escort, was in the middle; and to the right, at the back,
9 my wife's brother, Anto Zrnic, was there.
10 After my escort had said that Marko should run out and my wife's
11 brother should protect me, he wanted the window to be opened. The
12 shooting then broke out. A couple of bullets were fired from my vehicle.
13 And there was intense firing at the vehicle and the wheels. This all took
14 place very rapidly. So the escort, Marko Ljubic, opened the door and
15 tried to jump out. I don't think he even managed to jump out. He was
16 immediately cut down by a burst of fire.
17 I opened the door and tried to get out. I was still on the seat,
18 but my head and shoulders were protruding outside. I took my pistol out,
19 and that's when I felt a severe blow to my head and to my arm. I then
20 dropped my pistol. I was dragged out of the vehicle and put into a
21 vehicle. I think it was a van. A bag was put over my head, and we drove
22 off at great speed.
23 Q. Mr. Totic.
24 A. I then heard a burst of fire --
25 Q. Mr. Totic, may I please stop you here. From what you could see
1 on the video, was this the exact scene of your kidnapping and the killing
2 of your escort?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You mentioned earlier on, Mr. Totic, that you'd seen four people
5 attacking the car. Can you please describe or can you please tell the
6 Trial Chamber whether these people wore military uniforms.
7 A. When the vehicle stopped about 10 metres from my vehicle, four
8 soldiers got out very fast. They were at the front. And two were to the
9 left of the vehicle. They were all in uniforms, and at the time the BH
10 army wore such uniforms. They all had masks on, and they were wearing
11 gloves, apart from one person, who during my detention and when
12 negotiations were in course, I think that this person participated in the
13 attack and was also involved in the exchange and had something to do with
14 the place where I was detained.
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Totic. Having seen the video footage
16 and having been the victim of this kidnapping, and based on your
17 knowledge -- your knowledge in military terms, would you describe -- or
18 how would you describe this action was done? Was it done in a
19 professional manner, if one can describe such an action as such?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
21 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
22 question put to the witness was one that the Prosecution had already given
23 us a foreknowledge of. Mr. President, we think that this question and
24 such questions shouldn't be allowed, because the witness before us is a
25 factual witness and we are asking him to give us his opinion.
1 Mr. President, we have already made certain submissions before
2 this Trial Chamber with regard to the reasons for which opinions should
3 not be admitted. First of all, because when expressing opinions, you need
4 special skills. The opinion may not be objective or precise, exact.
5 Secondly, testifying about opinions is up to the Chamber. The Chamber is
6 in a position to decide about the evidence and on the basis of the video.
7 Thirdly, there's the danger of asking the witness to testify with regard
8 to facts and also to express his opinion about the same facts. And
9 fourthly, with regard to the procedure that is well established in this
10 Tribunal in the Rules, when we want to receive expert testimony, naturally
11 the experts' report has to be filed and then the opposing party, either
12 the Defence or the Prosecution, can make submissions with regard to the
13 report. And the Trial Chamber will then lender a decision on this basis
14 and will decide about admissibility or whether an expert is authorised to
15 express his opinions.
16 These criteria, Mr. President, are elaborated in detail in a
17 decision in the Delalic case, number IT - standing for International
18 Tribunal - 96-21-T, for trial. This decision is entitled "Decision on the
19 motion by the Prosecution to allow the investigators to follow the trial
20 during the testimonies of witnesses." In this decision, it is -- a clear
21 distinction is made between expert testimony and factual testimony. What
22 is more important in this case, Mr. President, in the opinion of the
23 Defence, is that the nature of the present case is such that many military
24 experts will be testifying before this Chamber.
25 These witnesses do in fact possess special skills, special
1 military skills. These witnesses will be coming from a number of
2 countries. They will have different ranks. They will have had different
3 experiences. If the Trial Chamber allows this witness -- these witnesses
4 to express their opinion, then the position will be more difficult because
5 the Trial Chamber may be faced with an opinion that could be expressed by
6 20 witnesses, and that is the difficulty that has to be assessed by the
7 Trial Chamber.
8 Are they to allow 20 opinions, rather than to allow for factual
9 testimony? Because on the basis of the facts expressed by these
10 witnesses, the Trial Chamber will be able to assess the situation. And it
11 is for these reasons that in future such questions which concern the
12 witness's opinion shouldn't be allowed in the case of this witness and in
13 the case of future witnesses.
14 Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 Mr. Withopf, you've taken note of the comments made. I'll
17 summarise the Defence's position. With regard to a witness testifying
18 about the facts, of which was a victim or which he witnessed, it is not in
19 the Defence's opinion possible to ask such a witness for his opinion. He
20 is only asked to testify about what happened and not to express his
21 subjective opinion. Opinions can only be subjective.
22 The Defence also mentioned that, with regard to opinions -- well,
23 it is for expert witnesses to express their opinions. In general, with
24 regard to military opinions, there are no -- there's no contestation,
25 because the Defence objects to a witness expressing opinion, because this
1 is a matter for the Trial Chamber to decide. What is your position before
2 we rule on this matter?
3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, very briefly. Of
4 course Mr. Totic is a fact witness and not an expert witness. However,
5 Mr. Totic was the victim of this kidnapping. He knows about the facts,
6 and he already testified extensively in respect to the facts of this
8 Each and every fact witness can draw conclusions, conclusions
9 based on the facts. That doesn't make him to an expert. And in
10 particular, the witness Totic has the relevant and the respective skill
11 set taking into account his long military career, which he informed the
12 Chamber of yesterday in great detail.
13 Therefore, the Prosecution is of the view that Mr. Totic can be
14 asked such questions which are nothing else but asking him to draw
15 conclusions based on the facts and based on things he personally
16 experienced and went through.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We are going
18 to retire to deliberate.
19 However, I am coming back to the question that was asked, and the
20 question was whether this operation, according to you, was carried out in
21 a professional manner. That was the sense of the question, and this is
22 what the Prosecution wanted to know, and they asked you in your capacity
23 as a soldier whether you as a soldier are familiar with the operation of
24 this type.
25 We are going to retire, and we are going to come back in a couple
1 of minutes. Please don't leave.
2 --- Break taken at 9.36 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 9.38 a.m.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. The Chamber
5 has deliberated on the position of the Prosecution that they should be
6 allowed to put this question. The Chamber has taken note of the fact that
7 the question deals with a technical issue and it consistent in asking the
8 witness, who was the victim of a kidnapping, whether the operation carried
9 out by the perpetrators was carried out in a professional way.
10 Since it is a technical question and the witness is a military
11 person and he can answer, the question is going to be considered a
12 technical question and the witness may answer, providing, Mr. Withopf,
13 that you put the question in such a way that you make it a technical
14 question, that you don't ask for the witness's opinion. You don't have an
15 expert in front of you. This is a factual witness. And when it -- when
16 you have an expert witness, then you have to provide a written opinion in
17 advance. But now we are dealing with a technical issue, and in that sense
18 the witness may provide an answer, providing you can rephrase your
19 question along these lines. Ask him about the technical details.
20 Witness, you are going to ask -- you are going to answer this
21 question as a technical expert on the matter.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
23 Q. Mr. Totic, an action of such a magnitude, what sort of planning
24 and logistics are involved in carrying it out?
25 A. Your Honours, such an operation has to be carefully planned in
1 advance, and it must have been carried out by professionals. The weapons
2 involved in the attack that the perpetrators used was not available to
3 every unit. The equipment that they had was -- are such as can be found
4 in military police units, because other units don't have handcuffs.
5 After the kidnapping, the treatment that I was given made me
6 conclude that the group consisted of highly disciplined people who have a
7 very structured command. And when I was interrogated, I could conclude
8 from the questions that the people were very highly skilled and
9 knowledgeable in military matters.
10 Q. Mr. Totic, can you please again tell us where exactly the
11 kidnapping and the killing of your escort happened.
12 A. Your Honours, the kidnapping took place in the Pobrijezje village
13 sector, some 50 metres away from the crossroads between Pobrijezje and
14 Detevo [phoen], 1 kilometre and 400 metres away from my apartment.
15 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber in which town your
16 apartment was located at the time.
17 A. At that time, my apartment was in Travnicka Street, in Zenica.
18 Q. Mr. Totic, based on what you've just said about the planning and
19 logistics and the necessary skill sets of the people who carry out such an
20 action, can it be done without the knowledge of the military power in the
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
24 Prosecution was authorised by the Chamber to ask questions that will
25 belong to the scope of technical matters and call for an answer that will
1 pertain to technical sphere. And now this question goes beyond what has
2 been authorised by the Chamber.
3 During our cross-examination, we shall have an opportunity to
4 address that issue. And now we are going to -- we are going beyond the
5 technical issue and we have to know now -- we want to -- the witness was
6 asked whether this operation required knowledge of military power in the
7 region. I believe that this question, Mr. President, goes beyond military
8 knowledge and calls for a subjective opinion which may arise from the
9 relationship between a victim and a participant in the event, and we would
10 like to Chamber not to allow this question. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, before I give you
12 the floor, you have asked the witness whether this operation, military
13 operation, could have been carried out without extensive military
14 knowledge. Was that the sense, the gist of your question?
15 At this moment, with your question what you are trying to
16 establish is whether the persons who carried out this attack - this is, at
17 least, the Chamber's opinion - this question connects the personality of
18 the witness and what happened to him. And the question is whether the
19 attack could have been carried out within the framework of extensive
20 military knowledge? Is that the sense of your question? Because the
21 Defence formally objects to your question.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the question is
23 actually a slightly different one, and I'll repeat it from the transcript:
24 Can such an action be done without the knowledge of the military power in
25 the area? And again, I wish to emphasise that Mr. Totic has the necessary
1 skill set based on his own very long career and based on his position at
2 the time and later on and his high rank to provide the Chamber information
3 on this issue.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to retire to
5 deliberate for a couple of minutes. We shall be back shortly.
6 --- Break taken at 9.49 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 9.51 a.m.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are now going to render our
9 oral decision whether the Prosecution may ask this question.
10 The Chamber is of the opinion that the response that may be given
11 to this question will have only speculative value to the extent it is
12 going to be an opinion of the witness, because this response will rely on
13 other elements that allow to describe the conditions in which this
14 operation took place. So since this is going to be an opinion, the
15 Chamber is aware of that and the Chamber rules that the question shouldn't
16 [as interpreted] be allowed. The Chamber would then like to ask you to
17 ask the question and rephrase it. You can ask the question rephrasing it.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I withdraw the
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Proceed.
22 MR. WITHOPF:
23 Q. Mr. Totic, yesterday you already informed the Trial Chamber what
24 happened after the actual kidnapping. Can you please tell us for how long
25 you were detained.
1 A. Your Honours, I was detained from 15 April 1993 --
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am coming back to the
3 previous issue. In the English transcript, it says that the Chamber will
4 not allow the question. However, that is not what I said. I said that --
5 this is line 17, page 15 of the transcript. The Chamber has authorised
6 the Prosecution to ask the question but the response is going to be
7 considered an opinion response, which in itself will contain other
8 elements complementary to the response. And the Chamber does authorise
9 the Prosecution to ask the question, but if the Prosecution wants to
10 withdraw the question, of course they can withdraw it. We would like to
11 avoid any ambiguities.
12 Mr. Withopf, you are authorised to ask the question; however, the
13 Chamber will understand that it is just an opinion when the witness gives
14 his answer.
15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, for this
17 Q. Mr. Totic, I'm now going to ask you the question again. Can such
18 an action - and I am referring to the kidnapping, your kidnapping, and the
19 killing of your escort - can it be done without the knowledge of the
20 military power in the area? And the area is Zenica.
21 A. Your Honours, since the kidnapping was carried out by
22 well-trained professional special forces, in my opinion, which in my
23 opinion should be positioned in the military police - and it is well known
24 that the 3rd Corps of the BH army had on its strength a military police
25 battalion which was directly subordinated to the commander of the 3rd
1 Corps - I believe that this could not have been done without the knowledge
2 of the corps commander.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what you are saying, this is
4 just your personal opinion. There are no elements on which you could base
5 that and say that it is a fact. It is your personal opinion?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is only my opinion,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When we're talking about
9 technicalities of the issue, you saw the video. We saw that there were
10 bursts of fire coming from the front, from the back, and from the left
11 side of the vehicle. We saw the bullet holes, and this means that those
12 who were shooting were very close to the vehicle and the -- the way the
13 victims looked means that they could have been saved only by a miracle.
14 When it comes to other technical issues, you were not killed
15 because I -- I conclude that they were shooting from the left; you were
16 sitting on the right. We do not know that. We can only conclude. And
17 the person who was on the right was also shooting, but you could not have
18 been killed. When it comes to this -- these technical matters, given the
19 number of bullets, the number of perpetrators, was this really an
20 operation that was carried out by special forces or was that a situation
21 from which you escaped although they were shooting at you? At a technical
22 level, what is your opinion?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe - and I'm
24 convinced - that this was done by special forces, by specially trained
25 forces. One bullet was fired and killed the driver. At the moment when
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the escort Ljubic, Marko Ljubic, tried to jump out of the vehicle, he was
2 cut directly. He was hit directly. So there was no fire opened from the
3 flanks. Only after that two perpetrators hit the back seat. So there was
4 just one shot fired at the driver. When I managed to get out of the
5 vehicle, I heard a burst of fire which lasted for half a minute. I'm just
6 giving my opinion. I suppose that at that moment they came closer. After
7 I read the on-site investigation notes carried out by the military police
8 of the Security Services Centre in Zenica, I saw in the investigation
9 report that the escorts' arms, pistols, had been collected and the helmets
10 were in the back. None of that was there before. I believe that the
11 kidnappers had collected the weapons and the rest of the equipment and
12 then carried out the massacre that was seen as the final result.
13 To corroborate this effect, I can say that according to the same
14 on-site report, another eyewitness to the event was also murdered. He was
15 a Muslim, a father of a 16-year-old child. His name is Avdaga Doglod. It
16 is assumed that he was murdered, shot at from the vehicle, that after the
17 incident the perpetrators took over and drove away.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, thank you. Before I continue with
19 asking additional questions to the witness, Mr. President, in respect to
20 tendering the video sequence into evidence, we are facing the very same
21 situation as in respect to the last video footage. This video footage is
22 a portion of a longer videotape, and in compliance with the guidance given
23 by the Chamber, very well, we have to isolate the portion. We have to
24 remove the audio. And we have to burn it on CD. It will be tendered in
25 the course of next week. However, if possible, I wish already today to
1 mark it for identification.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll mark it for
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P69, marked for
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P69, marked for identification.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Totic, again I know you already answered it, but can you
10 please rephrase it. For how long were you detained?
11 A. I was detained from the 15th of April, 1993 until the 17th of
12 April, 1993 [as interpreted]. So 33 days.
13 Q. There may or may not be a translation mistake in the transcript.
14 It says "from the 15th of April until the 17th of April, 1993." When were
15 you released, Mr. Totic?
16 A. Until the 17th of May, 1993.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Totic, for this clarification.
18 For the 33 days, have you always been detained in the same
20 A. Your Honours, during those 33 days, they moved me on five or six
21 occasions to different locations. The first location I was detained in, I
22 only spent one night there. On the 16th, in the evening, they transferred
23 me to a nearby house, which was about 50 metres away. I spent the night
24 there. I slept on a couch. I wasn't even able to stretch myself out on
25 it. And on another couch - the area was small - there was another person
1 who almost spent the entire night with me. Throughout that period of
2 time, I was blindfolded. And when they brought me food, they wanted me to
3 eat with the blindfold on. I spent one day at that location, and on the
4 17th of April they moved me to a location which was about 10 or 15 minutes
5 away. We went there on foot. On the basis of the terrain we went
6 through, I came to the conclusion that we were going uphill. But they
7 often asked me to look down. So I really don't know whether these were
8 just tricks they were using to confuse me.
9 They took me into the room of a house. When I sat down -- they
10 ordered me to sit down. They took the black bag off my head. I saw that
11 I was in a room. There was a wall to the left. To the right, there was
12 the back of a piece of furniture. I couldn't even turn around easily. I
13 was only able to sleep on my left side, as my head had been injured. I
14 wasn't able to sleep on my right side.
15 The kidnappers kept me there until about the 13th or 14th of May.
16 They told me that I would be exchanged. They then transferred me either
17 to the town or somewhere near the town. I don't know whether it was a
18 military facility or a school that they transferred me to. I couldn't say
19 for sure, but that's where I was taken.
20 Q. Can I stop you here for a moment, please, Mr. Totic. You were
21 repeatedly making reference to people who were present during your
22 detention. Who are actually the people you are referring to as "they"?
23 A. The people who were mostly present while I was detained, the
24 person who participated in the kidnapping. I think there was some central
25 figure there as one whose face was shown. But because of the person's
1 complexion, you could conclude that the person was of Arabic origin.
2 After I'd been taken to this first location, and after I'd been
3 taken to the basement, about 15 or 20 minutes later he turned up not in
4 military uniform. He was wearing clothes that Arabs wear, some sort of a
5 tunic. He introduced himself, said he was a doctor, and he examined my
6 wound. He reappeared at the next location. He brought a lady with him,
7 who examined me and prescribed some medicine for me. And during my
8 exchange, this person could be seen very well. And at the exchange, I
9 said, "How are you, Doctor?" And he very angrily replied, "I'm not a
11 Q. Mr. Totic, you are just making reference to a person of Arabic
12 origin. In which language or languages did the people who guarded you, in
13 which languages did they talk to each other?
14 A. The people who stood guard while I was in detention - and at
15 night I couldn't sleep because I was afraid that they would kill me during
16 the night - they would speak until late into the night. First they would
17 check to see whether I was sleeping. I pretended that I was. In fact, I
18 was eavesdropping. While I was there, I was able to conclude that there
19 were Arabs there but also quite a lot of people who spoke the local
20 language. I'd like to point out that only one person would approach me
21 and would show his face, and maybe about ten days later an Arab also
22 turned up. He showed his face, and I spoke to him. All the others, even
23 when they would bring me food, wore masks. But even then one could
24 conclude that when the Arabs brought food -- they didn't have gloves on.
25 But I assumed that the local people, when they brought food in, if they
1 didn't have any gloves on they would use rags to wrap their hands up,
2 probably to prevent them from being identified as local people on the
3 basis of their complexion, on the basis of the colour of their skin.
4 Q. Mr. Totic, moving on to some significance event -- significant
5 events during your detention. Did there come a time when you were
6 interrogated in the course of your detention?
7 A. I was interrogated on two occasions. I think the first time was
8 after three or four days had passed. A man appeared. I assumed it was a
9 politician because he didn't ask me any questions of a military nature.
10 He used a sort of electronic device to distort his voice, and naturally he
11 was masked. He was masked; you couldn't see his face.
12 They took the bag off my head. He asked me some questions,
13 mostly questions about political and military figures in Zenica and in its
14 surroundings. He asked me what I thought about the chief of the
15 municipality, what I thought about the HVO president, what I thought about
16 Mr. Saric, the Territorial Defence commander, what I thought about Fuad
17 Dzidic, the president of the SDA; Josip Pojavnik, the president of the
18 HDZ, and so on. That was the first interrogation.
19 The second time I was interrogated, the questions had to do with
20 military matters. They came and ordered me to stand up. They put a cap
21 on my head. They sorted out the jacket I was wearing, and they said I had
22 to give a statement that they were to forward to HVO representatives for
23 an exchange. They also said that they wanted to exchange me but that my
24 people didn't want me.
25 They took me to another room behind the piece of furniture. I
1 saw that it was a narrow room. There was a small window, a typical
2 Bosnian window, and there was one door. There was a camera in front, and
3 there was a chair at the back and I sat down on that chair. They asked me
4 to give a statement then, and they asked me to address the political and
5 military leadership of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, and they asked
6 me to request that they have me exchanged for Mujahedin, that is to say,
7 for foreigners who were in the prisons of Herceg-Bosna.
8 After that event -- well, they also told me that I could greet
9 close family members on that occasion there. Then I wanted to go to
10 sleep, because I had a headache, but then they said, "The main thing is
11 about to happen." Now they moved the chair. They made me kneel down on
12 the floor. A short man who was masked approached me. He sat opposite me,
13 at the other end of the room, and he started interrogating me.
14 First of all, a map was shown to me. One -- the scale was 1 to
15 50.000. I was familiar with the map. It was in my command in the
16 meetings hall. Nothing else was marked on the map, apart from the zone of
17 responsibility. And it contained military symbols. It was between the
18 Jure Francetic Brigade and the 314th BH.
19 There were another two details, artillery locations,
20 120-millimetre mortar sites had been marked, and anti-aircraft guns, 20
21 through 3 millimetres. And naturally, I was familiar with those
23 The first question put to me was: Is this the border between
24 Herceg-Bosna? I said, "That's ridiculous." I said, "There aren't any
25 borders. That's just a map symbol which has been marked in accordance
1 with the military rules as well as the zone of responsibility separating
2 brigades." He said I was lying. He then continued interrogating me, and
3 the questions he asked showed that he was very familiar with military
4 terms and with weapons. He didn't ask me about weapons in my brigade
5 because the brigade I was in command of was only being founded at the
6 time. It was pretty badly equipped. I was mostly asked about the weapons
7 possessed in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. He asked me how many
8 tanks we had, how many carriers, how many 152-millimetre Howitzers or,
9 rather, Noras. When I told him I didn't know the answer to that question,
10 one man got up, gave me a karate kick to the chest, and I fell down on my
11 back. Then I think an Arab jumped up and hit that person. He said that
12 the detainee was not to be beaten. And after that, no one hit me again
13 while I was in detention.
14 The questioning continued. And when I said I didn't know how
15 many weapons there were, he said, "Answer the questions, one or two." And
16 I said, "One or two." When I didn't say we didn't have any Noras, he
17 said, "What do you mean you don't have Noras, since they are shelling
18 Zenica from Kavarija" Your Honours, I'd like to repeat here that at the
19 time I really did not know how many Noras we had, nor did I know the
20 location of these Noras.
21 Q. Mr. Totic, may I please stop you here. Sorry. During the
22 interrogation, did there come a time when the interpreters -- the
23 interrogators identified themselves?
24 A. Your Honours, no one identified themselves, but the interrogation
25 was quite tortuous. Before the interrogation, they bought a metre and a
1 half of explosive fuse, 100 grams of trotile, which was connected to a
2 detonator, 2 and a half metres of cables, electric cables, and in his
3 other hand he had a battery, a 4 and a half volt battery, which was used
4 to detonate. He said, "You know if you wrap this around, it can cut
5 through 20 centimetres of wood." I said I knew that.
6 They then put this around my neck, and that's how they
7 interrogated me. When I had had enough of everything, I tried to approach
8 the detonating device, but then this person jumped back from me and then
9 about a minute or two later they interrupted the interrogation. They were
10 probably -- they probably feared for their own lives.
11 Q. Mr. Totic, even if the interrogators didn't identify themselves
12 with their names, did there come a time when they revealed to which
13 military unit, if any, they belonged to?
14 A. Your Honours, at the end of the interrogation I was told, "Do you
15 know who kidnapped you?" I said I didn't. They said, "If you reveal
16 this, if you say who kidnapped you, you and your people, those closest to
17 you, will be killed." And I was then told that a company of the special
18 military police belonging to the 3rd Corps had kidnapped me."
19 Your Honours, I'm telling you what I was told at the time, so I
20 can't guarantee you that that was the unit in question.
21 Q. Mr. Totic, you were informing the Trial Chamber that at one
22 occasion a military map was discussed, and you actually made reference
23 that it was your map from your command. Was it your impression or did you
24 know or do you know that the map that was shown to you was the map you
25 used in your command?
1 A. Your Honour, it really was the map that we used in my command,
2 and I believe - and at the time I believed - that someone had betrayed me
3 and taken that map away. I started sweating at that time. However, in my
4 opinion, after four or five days - I think it was on the 25th of May that
5 I was interrogated. After the conflict in Zenica, a certain unit came in,
6 took the map, and brought it. I think that is proof that 3rd Corps forces
7 also participated in my kidnapping.
8 Q. The individuals who interrogated you, based on the questions they
9 asked you, did you get the impression that they were informed about the
10 military situation within the ABiH 3rd Corps at the time?
11 A. Your Honour, on the basis of the questions that they asked me,
12 yes, that is my belief.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, since I now intend to ask the
14 witness a number of questions in relation to his exchange and we are very
15 close to the break, may I suggest to take the break now?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We will now adjourn. It
17 is almost half past 10.00. We'll resume at five to 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor to
21 Mr. Withopf.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Totic, you already mentioned half an hour ago that there came
24 a time when you were exchanged. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber
25 how it was organised, where took place, and who was present during the
2 A. Your Honours, my exchange was carried out on the 17th of May,
3 1993 in the centre of town, in front of the Internacional Hotel. The
4 Internacional Hotel is to the left from the stadium, some 150 metres as
5 the crow flies from the command of the 3rd Corps. Representatives of the
6 European Monitoring Mission participated in my exchange. There were also
7 uniformed personnel in white uniforms such as were worn by the army
8 members at the time. They didn't have any insignia. I didn't notice any
9 insignia. There was a person whose face was uncovered, and he wore Arabic
10 uniform. That was the doctor who introduced himself to me when I was
11 kidnapped and when he examined the wound on my head.
12 In addition to them, on the right-hand side I saw the vehicle
13 that they came in. I saw some people standing there. And I also saw
14 people with the insignia. I couldn't see the insignia, but I could see
15 patches on their shoulders. They wore BH army uniforms, and I suppose
16 that they provided security for the exchange venue. They were mixed with
17 the civilians, and they were standing a bit further from the place of the
19 The act of exchange itself lasted for some two or three hours.
20 After some negotiation and talks, a representative of the European
21 Monitoring Mission approached me, asked to identify me. My commander at
22 the time approached a British APC. The APC was reversing and it
23 approached the vehicle where I was. The door was open, and among other
24 people I saw Colonel Zvonko Vukovic in the APC. He was one of the
25 assistant commanders in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. After that,
1 the door closed and the vehicle drove off.
2 After that, when the act of exchange began, I was told that I
3 would be transferred to another vehicle. Before that, the blindfolds were
4 taken off from our eyes, and in the vehicle just before I came there I saw
5 two other people sitting in the same vehicle with me. They were
6 civilians. One of them I knew. When all the soldiers left the vehicle, I
7 asked him where he was from and where could I know him from. He told me
8 that he worked at the radio station, the owner of which was my
9 acquaintance, Zoran Misetic and this guy worked for him. I asked him
10 where he was captured. He said it was either on the same day or the day
11 after I was kidnapped. They came to the -- see the radio. He was also
12 kidnapped and taken to an unknown place.
13 The exchange itself was supervised by the European monitors, who
14 were standing on the left and on the right side to us.
15 Q. Mr. Totic, it appears to be pretty obvious, since you said the
16 exchange took place some 150 metres as the crow flies from the 3rd Corps
17 headquarters, and you mentioned the town. Which town are you referring
19 A. Your Honours, it was in the town of Zenica.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I intend to now show
21 the witness a further video, and I will provide additional information on
22 this video. For that purpose, could we please go into private session?
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we will go into private
25 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
1 MR. WITHOPF:
2 Q. Mr. Totic, the Prosecution is now going to show you a second
3 videotape. It will again appear on the screen in front of you. And I
4 wish to draw your attention, Mr. Totic, to the people being present during
5 the exchange. I will ask you a number of questions after you've seen the
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, this is the wrong one. There will
9 be another one. I apologise.
10 Here we are.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. WITHOPF:
13 Q. Mr. Totic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you have
14 seen on this video.
15 A. Your Honours, I could see the vehicle in which I was brought for
16 the exchange to the centre of town in front of the Internacional Hotel.
17 To my right side in the vehicle, there was a Croat. I believe that his
18 name was Ante Antunovic, but I am not sure. And on the left, there was
19 this young lad, who was one of the -- of the anchors at Mr. Misetic's
20 private radio station in Zenica. The persons who jumped out of the
21 vehicle were masked all the time. And while they were sitting with me in
22 the vehicle and when our blindfolds were taken off, I could see that they
23 were mixed. When looking at their hands, I could see that some of them
24 were locals and that the others were foreigners. The person in Arabic
25 uniform is the person that introduced himself as a doctor, who in my
1 opinion - and I'm convinced of that - was involved in the act of
2 kidnapping itself.
3 Later on, while I was imprisoned, he was also there and he was
4 the person in charge during the exchange. He was the one who negotiated
5 with the international monitors. He went to the third and fourth floor at
6 the Internacional Hotel, where negotiations were taking place regarding
7 the exchange. So he was the central, the key figure in all this.
8 Q. And, Mr. Totic, could you see any regular ABiH soldiers being
9 present during the exchange?
10 A. You could clearly see that they were regular ABiH soldiers
11 standing together with the civilians. They were lined up in the way
12 guards usually secure a public event. This made me conclude that this
13 exchange was organised by the military authorities that were in charge at
14 the time in the town of Zenica.
15 Q. And the military authorities that were in charge at the time in
16 Zenica were which military authorities?
17 A. Your Honours, the leading military authority was the commander of
18 the highest formation, and that was the commander of the 3rd Corps of the
19 BiH army.
20 Q. And do you know, Mr. Totic, for whom you were exchanged?
21 A. Your Honours, while I was detained, they told me that I was not a
22 problem, that there are others who are a problem. They are allegedly
23 members of the HVO who were robbing their brethren Muslims who came to
24 defend local Muslims. And they told me also they didn't ask for anything
25 else but for all their brethren imprisoned all over Bosnia-Herzegovina to
1 be released. They told me that some were kept in Kaonik, and they also
2 told me they were aware of the fact that one of them was dead.
3 After the exchange, I learnt something that I didn't know
4 beforehand; I didn't know whether there were any foreign nationals in
5 prisons. I know that I did not participate in the arrest and detention of
6 any foreign citizen, not a single one.
7 Later on I found out that 11 or 12 people were exchanged for me.
8 They were also brought to the centre of Zenica in front of the
9 Internacional Hotel once I had already left. The act of exchange,
10 according to my information that I later on received from the
11 international monitors, the vehicles crossed the separation line at the
12 same time and went off towards Kaonik on the Zenica-Busovaca road.
13 Q. The 11 or 12 people that were exchanged for you, were they
15 A. Your Honours, they were all Mujahedin.
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the situation with
17 this video footage is the same as with the previous one; it only forms
18 part of a far longer video. We again have to isolate the respective
19 portion, to burn it on CD. We will tender it into evidence in the course
20 of next week; however, we wish to get a number for identification.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have any other questions
22 regarding this videotape, or are you going to move on? The Chamber would
23 like to seek a clarification from the witness.
24 MR. WITHOPF: I intend to move on.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Witness, we
1 have seen the video. The Defence has seen it as well. We can see you
2 arriving at the central square. We can see the soldiers with masks. We
3 can see them getting off the vehicle. We also saw three people in the
4 vehicle: Yourself and two other people. The vehicle that we saw looked
5 like a military vehicle. Can you please confirm that this was indeed a
6 military vehicle. What can you tell us about the vehicle that transported
7 you to the place of exchange?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wouldn't say it
9 that this was a military vehicle. At that time, there were no military
10 vehicles, typical military vehicles. I couldn't see the inside very well,
11 and I didn't see how it was painted from the outside. I didn't see it
12 from the outside at all. It was a civilian vehicle which had been
13 requisitioned by the army. In most of the cases, there were all sorts of
14 vehicles that were used by the army. I didn't see the registration plates
15 on the vehicle, and I can't speak about the things I didn't see. I only
16 know that there were soldiers in the vehicle and that I was brought there
17 in that vehicle.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you.
19 On the day of exchange, that vehicle that we could see on the
20 tape, is that the vehicle that picked you up from the facility where you
21 were detained?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, whenever I was taken
23 out, I would be blindfolded. I would be put -- a bag on the head. I
24 didn't see anything. The first time they took that bag off was when we
25 arrived. When I was taken out from the vehicle, I believe that they kept
1 me in the primary school on the day of exchange. I could have a glimpse
2 of some children around. That's all I could see.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. My question
4 was very precise: When you were in the vehicle, between the place where
5 you were detained and the place where you were exchanged, did you use just
6 one vehicle or were there various vehicles involved?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one vehicle, from the place
8 where I spent the last night to the place I was exchanged. I was not
9 transferred from one vehicle to another.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. My last question:
11 When you entered the vehicle in order to be transported to the place of
12 exchange, the soldiers who were in the vehicle were those who guarded you
13 in detention or were they some other soldiers, soldiers who arrived in
14 that vehicle?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know who they
16 were, who were the guards. They were all in uniforms and they were all
17 masked, so I wouldn't be able to tell you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
19 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.
20 We are going to give you an exhibit number for this tape that
21 you're going to tender.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P70,
23 marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You may
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Totic, you already mentioned yesterday that you had a meeting
3 or that you met Mr. Dzemal Merdan in 1994. Was there any occasion at
4 which Mr. Dzemal Merdan, who was, as you testified, the ABiH 3rd Corps
5 deputy commander at the time, did Dzemal Merdan at any point in time make
6 any reference to your kidnapping and/or your detention? Did he talk to
7 you about it?
8 A. Your Honours, we avoided that. The BH army representatives
9 avoided that topic. Although, I insisted on several occasions. However,
10 during the negotiations at the military executive committee in Gornji
11 Vakuf and in Uskoplje, around the 1st of March, 1994, after one meeting
12 there, when we agreed to disagree on an issue - I believe that the issue
13 was the separation line between the forces in Busovaca - he stood up. We
14 were sitting around a table. There was a large map on the table. He
15 stood up and said, "Why didn't we kill you when we had you in our hands?"
16 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Totic.
17 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have completed your
21 Before I give the floor to the Defence, I would like to ask for
22 some clarification that the Chamber might find useful.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were kidnapped, do you
25 think that this kidnapping was planned well ahead and was it done with the
1 ultimate objective of you being exchanged or was that a random kidnapping?
2 As a soldier, can you answer? What was the reason for kidnapping? Were
3 you kidnapped in order to be exchanged? Do you know that?
4 A. Your Honour, according to what happened at the place where I was
5 kidnapped and later on during the detention and during the exchange, the
6 treatment that I was given made me conclude already on the first day --
7 actually, on the first day, I was in doubt. I was still afraid that I
8 might be killed when they poured oil on me to stop bleeding. I knew that
9 this was the way to stop bleeding.
10 When I was detained, they told me that I was not a problem, that
11 they only wanted me for exchange, that they wanted to capture the highest
12 ranking officer, and they believed that I would be the one that would
13 serve to exchange all of their Muslim brethren in prison. And the food
14 that I was given, I would be wrong to say that this food was bad. I
15 didn't suffer. I was kicked only once by a soldier. I was taunted. I
16 was verbally threatened, but nobody ever maltreated me.
17 Secondly, their treatment was very professional. When I was
18 taken for exchange, they put boots on me and they laced my boots. They
19 wanted me to look the part.
20 Further on, some 30 days into my detention, a person came. He
21 took off his mask. He was very polite, looked like a diplomat. He was a
22 foreigner. He was very civilised. He asked me whether I was beaten.
23 Then I said that I was kicked only once. And he asked me if I had been
24 beaten. He wanted to know what was the date when this was done. And then
25 he told me that it was not according to the Islam teachings to beat
1 prisoners, that this shouldn't be done.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. And the wound
3 that you had, that was the wound that was a gunshot wound. Was that a
4 surface wound or was that a slight injury? What would you say? You said
5 that -- what was the nature of this wound? We did not understand the
6 nature of that wound.
7 A. I don't know, Your Honours, whether this was a gunshot wound. I
8 only know that I was hit with a rifle butt when I tried to get out of the
9 vehicle. I don't know whether I was shot or not, because I was in a state
10 of shock. However, there was a huge impact when the vehicle hit something
11 some kilometre or so into our journey. I was sitting in the front. My
12 hands were handcuffed in the back. There was a blanket over my body, and
13 there was a bucket on my legs and one bucket on my shoulders. I had to
14 lie down with that bag on my head. At one moment I felt an impact because
15 the vehicle hit something, and I bumped into something in the vehicle. I
16 don't know whether I was injured during the kidnapping or while I was in
17 the vehicle. When the vehicle hit something, my glasses were broken. And
18 I asked somebody during the journey to remove any glasses. I was afraid
19 that the shattered glass could cut my eye. There was a lot of shattered
20 glass on my face. The wound itself was somewhat deeper. It was half a
21 centimetre deep. However, they gave me some medication, some powder.
22 When they brought the first pill, I didn't want to swallow it. I was
23 afraid that they wanted to poison me on that first day. However, later on
24 one of them brought a prescription and told me what was prescribed to me,
25 and he told me, "If you don't believe that this is an antibiotic, look at
1 the prescription and see for yourself that we are giving you proper
2 medicine," and that's when I started taking antibiotics.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 I'm turning to the Defence for their cross-examination.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Totic. My name is Edina
8 Residovic. I represent General Enver Hadzihasanovic.
9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, some of my questions will be general
10 and some of the questions will be put to the witness to check the
11 witness's credibility. Other questions will have to do with issues raised
12 by the Prosecution in the course of his examination-in-chief.
13 Q. Mr. Totic, until recently you were a professional military man by
14 profession; isn't that correct?
15 A. Up until 1997, Your Honours, I was a professional soldier. In
16 1997, on the 1st of October, I joined the Ministry of Defence as a member
17 of the military. But in the Ministry of Defence my professional life is
19 Q. You said that on the 26th of April, 1996 you left your
20 position -- you said that on the 4th of December, 1991, after a certain
21 training you came to Bihac, which is in Bosnia and Herzegovina. From the
22 western part, not far from the Croatian border; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On the 26th of April, 1992, when you left the JNA, you went to
25 fetch your family in Sarajevo; is that correct?
1 A. No. On the 26th, since I lived in Sarajevo and worked in Bihac,
2 I got my family out on the 15th of April. I got them out of Sarajevo.
3 That was the last time I -- they found accommodation with their parents
4 and I went to work in Bihac. And up until -- and on the 26th, I went to
5 Zenica, not to Sarajevo.
6 Q. When you got to Zenica - that's the 26th of April - Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina had already been internationally recognised as a state; isn't
8 that correct?
9 A. [No audible response]
10 Q. At the time, the JNA and the Serbian forces on the 6th of April,
11 to be more precise, had already attacked Sarajevo, the main town -- the
12 capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't that correct? On the 6th of
13 April, when the town was liberated.
14 A. I don't remember exactly. All I know is that after the first
15 barricades had been erected in Sarajevo, in Grbavica on the 20th of March,
16 I think, I then decided to get my family out. I don't think the fighting
17 had started at that time, but they had started putting up barricades in
18 the town and there was sporadic shooting.
19 Q. Very well. I'm not going to insist on this.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In response to the question you
21 put to the witness, the witness's answer wasn't audible. The question
22 concerned the recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He didn't answer the
23 question. Could you ask the witness the question again. It's line 7. In
24 English, there is no audible response.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat this question.
1 Q. Is it correct to say that on the 26th of April, when you left the
2 JNA, Bosnia and Herzegovina had already been internationally recognised as
3 a state?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At the same time, on the 26th of April, 1992 they declared a
6 state of an imminent threat of war and all officers were called to report
7 to the Territorial Defence Staff to organise the Defence of the country;
8 isn't that correct?
9 A. That's correct. But at the time in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there
10 were two formations that had been legally formed.
11 Q. Very well. I'll continue to ask you about those matters too.
12 You previously said that in the former SFRY the Territorial
13 Defence, in addition to the JNA, was part of the armed forces of the SFRY;
14 is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it was part of the armed forces of the former Yugoslavia.
16 Q. Is it correct so say that the JNA, when it attacked Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, in fact ceased to be its armed forces and the Territorial
18 Defence is what remained of the former armed forces?
19 A. Your Honours, I can't answer this question by simply saying yes
20 or no. After the attack carried out by the former JNA against Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina, and prior to the attack, the JNA was gradually ceasing to be
22 the armed forces of the former SFRY and it was becoming a national force.
23 But when it attacked Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Territorial Defence, as
24 the other armed component of the armed forces of the former Yugoslavia,
25 became to a large extent a force of a single nation. It mostly consisted
1 of Muslims.
2 Q. The Territorial Defence before the war was a military structure
3 which reflected the ethnic composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. However, after the war, the legally elected leadership, the
7 Presidency, and the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina were
8 multi-ethnic; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes. But after the withdrawal of the Serbian representatives, it
10 became less and less multi-ethnic. You know very well that some people
11 were elected by the Serbian people and that they withdrew; others were
12 appointed. I won't go into that. These are political issues.
13 Q. The Territorial Defence command that the Presidency had declared
14 as the legal Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina also reflected the
15 multi-ethnic composition of the country; isn't that correct?
16 A. I don't know anything about the composition of the Territorial
18 Q. Would it be correct to say that the staff commander at the
19 beginning was Hasan Efendic, a Muslim, a Bosniak, and his deputies were
20 Stjepan Siber, a Croat; and Jovan Divjak, a Serb?
21 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
22 Q. The Minister of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was Jerko Doko,
23 a Croat.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Although you were a professional soldier and although you had a
1 flat in Sarajevo, summons received by the Territorial Defence Staff was
2 one that you didn't respond to. You didn't report to the Territorial
3 Defence; isn't that correct?
4 A. Your Honours, I was in Sarajevo. I had a flat there. I was born
5 in Zenica. I didn't respond to the summons to go to the Republican Staff
6 in Sarajevo for a simple reason: The flat in which I lived upon that
7 occasion at that time and which I live now, I only got it back in 2001, in
8 January 2001. It was in the part of town that immediately fell into
9 Serbian hands.
10 Q. On the 26th of April, you said you reached Zenica. Zenica is in
11 fact the largest city in Central Bosnia; isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes. If Sarajevo isn't taken to be in central Bosnia.
13 Q. The population of the town was ethnically mixed; although, the
14 majority were Muslims.
15 A. Your Honours, with your permission, I would like to discuss this
16 issue in greater detail. The ethnic composition of Zenica -- or rather,
17 of the municipality of Zenica in 1991, it's true to say that 44.7 per cent
18 were Bosniaks, 16.8 per cent were Serbs, and 15.6 per cent were Croats,
19 and 16 per cent were others. Among the others, most of them had declared
20 themselves as Yugoslavs. However, after the failure of the Territorial
21 Defence forces when defending Eastern and Western Bosnia, many refugees
22 arrived in Zenica.
23 Q. Mr. Totic, I'll be asking you about that. We're still talking
24 about the prewar period.
25 Zenica, as an industrial, an economical place, there were no
1 conflicts of an ethnic kind in Zenica at the time.
2 A. Your Honours, Zenica, as the Defence says, was inhabited by
3 various ethnic groups, and you could say that these ethnic groups lived in
4 harmony together.
5 Q. However, after the war -- I mean, after the beginning of the war,
6 after the Serbian forces had occupied important areas of Krajina and
7 Eastern Bosnia, tens of thousands of refugees expelled from Eastern Bosnia
8 and Krajina arrived in Zenica; is that correct?
9 A. Your Honours, between 35.000 and 40.000 arrived, and they were
10 mostly Muslims.
11 Q. About 90 per cent of the refugees were Muslims or Bosniaks. One
12 could say that that was the case; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That fact significantly changed the ethnic composition of the
15 population in Zenica, and as a result we could say that towards the end of
16 1992 and at the beginning of 1993 about 80 per cent of the population was
17 Bosniak; is that correct?
18 A. Your Honours, I couldn't say, because that's just one aspect.
19 The arrival of refugees is one aspect. And the second aspect has to do
20 with the attack of the Territorial Defence forces in May and clearing up
21 the Drivusa village. After that event, the message -- a clear message was
22 sent to the Serbs. In fact, the Serbs after that event ran away from
23 Zenica. There were over 80 per cent.
24 Q. After a number of general questions I have put to you - and you
25 were able to answer them - I will now go back to the part of your
1 testimony that concerned the time when you were kidnapped in Zenica in
2 mid-April 1993. Would it be true to say that on several occasions you
3 have given statements about your kidnapping and you have testified about
5 A. Your Honours, I testified about it on only one occasion, and that
6 was before this Tribunal in the Dario Kordic case, as a witness for the
7 Defence. As far as giving statements are concerned, I gave a statement.
8 I was the commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, and there was
9 the president Dario Kordic and Anto Valenta, who were political figures at
10 the time. And I gave a statement in 1994 or 1995 to representatives of
11 the authorised organs of the military police and to the district public
12 prosecutor, because at the time I thought that this should be looked into.
13 But I didn't testify before any other courts, apart from this court here.
14 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Prosecution, you said
15 that when you were detained, you found out from someone that your
16 kidnapping had been carried out by a special military police unit from the
17 3rd Corps. Is that what you said?
18 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's correct. But I can't be certain.
19 Q. However, what you heard when in detention is a very important
20 factor for you, and that is why you mentioned it before the Court today.
21 A. Your Honours, I'm trying to inform the Chamber of everything that
22 I have heard about while in detention.
23 Q. Thank you. Since you have just said that for your own needs and
24 the needs of your commanders, for the needs of Tihomir Blaskic and Dario
25 Kordic and Anto Valenta, you made a report, I would like this report to be
1 shown to the witness. We have a sufficient number of copies for the Trial
2 Chamber and for our colleagues. We received this report in the pre-trial
3 period from the Prosecution.
4 Have a look at it, please. Is that the report that you made
5 after you had been exchanged? Did you give it to your commanders?
6 A. Not to my commanders but to my commander. And these are two
7 political figures. But Mr. Dario Kordic had the rank of colonel at the
8 time. But I think it is.
9 Q. Mr. Totic, is it correct to say that on the 13th of October, 1993
10 you wrote a report for the needs of the Centre for Human Rights, which
11 Anto Damjanovic took down? Is that correct?
12 A. In 1993?
13 Q. Yes.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since my questions will relate to both statements,
15 could this statement also be shown to the Witness. We received it from
16 the Prosecution, and it contains the witness's handwritten text and the
17 text that has been typed out and the English translation.
18 [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Totic, is this the report that you yourself wrote?
22 A. Your Honours, this isn't my handwriting.
23 Q. Did you sign these statements?
24 A. I can't see my signature either. I know Mr. Anto Damjanovic.
25 I'm aware of the fact that he worked for the Centre for Human Rights. I
1 know that at the time he worked in some sort of a service. I have spoken
2 about this matter. This isn't my handwriting, and the signature is
3 illegible. I can't confirm that this is my signature.
4 Q. In the handwritten text, there is a signature on each page. Can
5 you recognise your own signature on those pages?
6 A. I can only recognise my signature here, at the end, on the last
7 page. But on the other pages, no, I can't see my signature.
8 Q. Nevertheless, in 1993, in October, you spoke about this subject,
9 and the person you spoke to made a record of what you said; isn't that
11 A. Your Honours, this was an authorised official from the security
12 service at the time. I spoke about the subject privately.
13 Q. At the time, did you sign anything that was recorded?
14 A. I believe that I put my signature on the last page, but at the
15 time there was no electricity because there was a general attack underway.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the usher to
17 give a better copy of this statement to the witness. At the bottom of
18 each page the signature is much more legible, so I'm going to ask the
19 witness to see whether he can recognise his signature on this copy here.
20 A. I believe that this should be my signature.
21 Q. Very well, then. We have identified the statement. You didn't
22 write it in your own hand but you did sign it; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you several questions about the two
25 documents that I have just given you. These are reports to your commander
1 and vice-president of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, i.e., its
2 secretary, and these were the first statements that you gave after the
3 exchange; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. Mr. Anto also read it when I gave my first statement.
5 Q. You also on the 3rd of May, 2000 gave certain information which
6 were used by the Kordic Defence and Blaskic Defence in those trials; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You testified as a Defence witness in the Kordic case before this
10 Tribunal. It was in the year 2000, not in 1999, as you stated yesterday.
11 You got confused on that.
12 A. Your Honours, I said I wasn't sure whether it was in 1999 or in
13 2000. In any case, it was in April or in May.
14 Q. In addition to that, in March 2001 you gave a statement to the
15 Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal; is that correct?
16 A. [No audible response]
17 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Commander Blaskic and other
18 political figures, you also spoke about the persons who carried out your
19 kidnapping. So I would kindly ask you -- again your answer was not
20 recorded. The question was whether in March 2001 you gave a statement to
21 the OTP. Did you or did you not?
22 A. Yes. I said yes.
23 Q. I heard it, but it wasn't recorded, and only the things that are
24 recorded can be considered your answers. Thank you for repeating your
25 answer in this case.
1 I'm going to ask you to look at the pages that I'm going to
2 mention, and every time I'm going to also mention the date stated therein
3 and the paragraph under that date. I'm not going to give you the numbers
4 of paragraphs and the pages thereon, but I'm going to refer to the dates.
5 Firstly, tell me, is it correct that in that statement you put
6 the events in chronological order and described whatever happened to you
7 during that period of time?
8 A. Your Honours, from one day to another, from one date to another,
9 I described events. However, I cannot be 100 per cent sure that I am
10 right about the dates. I did not have a watch. It had been taken away
11 from me. I didn't know the difference between the day and the night. The
12 only way I could say that it was daylight is because I could hear the
13 prayer invitation coming from a nearby mosque. I believed at the time
14 that it was a mosque.
15 Q. Very well, then. You stated before this Trial Chamber that all
16 the persons that communicated with you, with the exception of this Arab,
17 were always masked; they wore masks on their faces.
18 A. Yes, all except the Arab, who wore a tunic. And before my
19 exchange, another person came, whose name I don't know. He asked me
20 questions about whether I had been beaten. And also, one of the escorts
21 in the command who brought food, he was also an Arab. He was a guard.
22 Towards the end of my stay there, he took his mask off and he told me that
23 he was an Arab and he also told me that he could hardly wait to leave.
24 "These are not Muslims. Women look differently here, and I can hardly
25 wait for the day to leave here." So these were the three men that I could
2 Q. On the 15th of April - page 2, paragraph 5, B/C/S version; and on
3 the same page of the English version - you described the moment of the
4 attack and you said that while he was putting a tape in the cassette
5 player he shouted "An attack," ask then you saw a Volkswagen, a white
6 Volkswagen and four people ran out of it -- out of the Audi. And there
7 were two masked people who ran out of the Audi. Is that what it says
9 A. Yes. The road was blocked by the two vehicles and we couldn't
10 proceed. I ordered the driver to try and avoid them, because there was a
11 hill and we could maybe turn around and then go back towards the town.
12 But it wasn't possible.
13 Q. Is it true that in this report, also under the 15th of April, on
14 paragraph 3, page 15 of the B/C/S version, you say and you describe the
15 basement where you were brought to? You also say that you heard guards
16 speaking in Arabic.
17 A. Yes, that's correct. I heard them there.
18 Q. Is it correct that in the entire text that you wrote you
19 described the things that you testify about here. Firstly, that there
20 were some political questions put to you and then that some people came
21 and asked you some military questions? Is that something that you wrote
22 down in your report?
23 A. [No audible response]
24 Q. Is it correct that, as it says on the page describing the 16th of
25 April - that is, page 3 in B/C/S, paragraph 4; and page 3, paragraph 4 of
1 the English version, to the very bottom - once you were transferred to a
2 different place, to a different room there were guards there, some ten of
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you have the
6 MR. WITHOPF: I only wish to draw the attention of the Trial
7 Chamber that there's again no audible response of the witness in the
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Again I hear your answers, but apparently the interpreters can't
11 hear you. Can you move closer to the microphone.
12 Is it correct that they first asked you some political questions
13 and then some military questions and that this is also stated in your
14 report? Is this correct?
15 A. Yes, I believe that this is correct.
16 Q. I'm going to repeat my last question about the 16th of April. In
17 B/C/S, this is paragraph 4, page 3; and also paragraph 4, page 3 in the
18 English version. It says here that somebody, a masked person, came to you
19 first and that he was followed by a doctor, and they told you that you
20 were not a problem but that the problem are your encaptured brethren who
21 had about a 1 million 6 hundred thousand Deutschmarks on them and that
22 they were tortured by Croats.
23 A. Yes, that's what they said.
24 Q. Is it true that in the part that refers to the 9th of May, where
25 it says that a man came to you, he spoke about those encaptured Arabs. He
1 said that they were not soldiers, that they were mostly humanitarians and
2 journalists and there were only three soldiers and that he was afraid that
3 what had happened might pose problems for the future activities of
4 Merhamet and the Islamic centre, the two humanitarian organisations, one
5 of them religious? Is it true that this person told you that and did you
6 write that in your report?
7 A. Whatever you can find in this report is what I could remember
8 best, and these are all facts. This is what I was told. I did hear that
9 from them.
10 Q. Not in a single line of your report, not under any date did you
11 mention the fact that you mentioned here today, when you were talking
12 about kidnapping and linking it with the BH army and the military police
13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the special police of the 3rd Corps. Is that
15 A. I have stated what I heard, and I heard that this had been done
16 by a company of the special military police of the 3rd Corps. Whether
17 this was the case or not --
18 Q. However, you didn't put it down in your report, and this is my
20 A. You can find it in a different report. Yes, I did write it.
21 Q. In the report that you wrote in 1993, you didn't state that fact;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Maybe you can't find it in this report. You can find it in
24 another report, however.
25 Q. Thank you. Can we please look at the statement that you gave and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 signed and which was recorded on the 13th of October, 1993.
2 On page 1, paragraph 2, you also describe people who kidnapped
3 you wearing masks. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. In paragraph 6, you say that one of them shoved a rifle barrel in
6 your back, they spoke in Arabic, and that you recognised the name Totic
7 being mentioned in Arabic?
8 A. During the kidnapping you mean?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I believe there was very little communication among them.
11 Everything that was said was in Arabic. They had walkie-talkies in the
12 vehicles, and all I could hear was them shouting, "Allah-U-Ekber." There
13 was very little other communication. It was all in Arabic. However,
14 during the act of kidnapping, there was also very -- there was also people
15 acting to be speaking Arabic. They were locals who pretended to speak
16 Arabic, but they couldn't speak it well.
17 Q. Is it true that on page 2 of this statement given on the 13th of
18 October you describe your departure from the place of kidnapping to the
19 place where you spent the first night after the kidnapping? You say in
20 paragraph 3 - paragraph 3 - "They were very disciplined at first and then
21 they started shouting and singing Arabic songs." You also say that you
22 heard swear words and these were the first words that you heard in
23 Croatian. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In this statement, you also say that you noticed some people
1 pretending to be foreigners; however, that it was not very well done and
2 that you could recognise them as being locals, rather than foreigners. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Not in a single line of this statement do you mention anything
6 that you have testified today before this Trial Chamber, which is that
7 somebody during your stay in detention told you that they belonged to the
8 BH army, that the BH army was involved, that it was carried out by the
9 special units of the 3rd Corps. In this statement, no such thing is
10 mentioned; is that correct?
11 A. No, this is not in my statement, but you can find it in other
12 documents, in other papers.
13 Q. As a matter of fact, when you gave your statements in 1993, when
14 your memory was still fresh, and when you gave your statement to the
15 highest authorities of the HVO and the police of the Croatian Community of
16 Herceg-Bosna, you never mentioned the things that you mentioned before
17 this Trial Chamber today.
18 A. Your Honours, when I spoke to the highest authorities, the
19 suspect was the 7th Muslim Brigade. However, when I was being
20 interrogated and when a statement was being taken from me - and this was
21 all recorded - if there is a will -- these statements that I gave during
22 my detention, all these statements were recorded, and it is true that this
23 person told me that if I should say who had kidnapped me, that I and the
24 closest of my family would be killed.
25 Then I was asked whether I knew who the kidnappers were. I said
1 No, I didn't know. And then they told me the company of the special
2 police of the 3rd Corps. I cannot guarantee that this indeed is true. I
3 know that there were such forces in the Ministry of the Interior Affairs.
4 However, this could not have been done without the knowledge of the 3rd
6 Q. So your testimony, that you know, and that one of the kidnappers
7 told you that the kidnapping had been carried out by the special unit of
8 the military police of the 3rd Corps, you didn't hear from any of the
9 kidnappers. You heard that when you gave your statement. You heard it
10 from some other persons who had their doubts at the moment that this was
11 done by the 7th Muslim Brigade.
12 A. No. I heard it from the kidnappers, that this was done by the
13 company of the special police.
14 Q. However, you did not mention that in any of the statements that
15 you gave in 1993. You didn't deem it important at the time, did you?
16 A. I did write that in some of the reports.
17 Q. As a matter of fact, the fact that the BH army, the 7th Muslim,
18 and the 3rd Corps were involved, you started talking about that when --
19 during your preparation for the testimony in the Kordic case; is that
21 A. No, it is not. Your Honours, already in 1993 and 1994 I spoke
22 about that; however, this was not insisted upon, because we were not sure.
23 I cannot say to this very day that this was indeed the unit. We didn't
24 want to judge somebody in advance without proof.
25 Q. Thank you very much. Let's go back to the part of the testimony
1 that you gave yesterday.
2 What you said yesterday about your information that you had in
3 1992 and 1993 about the situation in Zenica, this can be found on pages 52
4 and 53 of the transcript - I'm going to paraphrase - in 1992, you already
5 knew there were foreign troops in Zeljezno Polje, Arnauti, and Mehurici;
6 did you say that?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. You also said that you got this information from your
9 intelligence service that you had in the brigade.
10 A. I only learned about the foreigners in Bistricka village. That's
11 what my intelligence service told me.
12 Q. Up until the 15th of April, 1993, you personally never went to
13 the village of Bistricka, to Zeljezno Polje, or to Arnauti and Mehurici;
14 is that correct?
15 A. No, I subsequently passed through Zeljezno Polje. Before the
16 war, I'd never been there. And I've never been in these villages before,
17 the other ones.
18 Q. Up until your kidnapping in the middle of April, 1993, you
19 personally never established contact with the foreign soldiers, the
20 Mujahedin; is that correct?
21 A. No, it's correct that I never met them and spoke to them.
22 Q. Up until the time when you were kidnapped in the middle of April
23 1993, you never saw any documents from the 3rd Corps or from 3rd Corps
24 brigades which mentioned that foreign soldiers, Mujahedin, were in those
25 brigades or corps. On the contrary, all those to whom you spoke said that
1 they weren't part of the army; is that correct?
2 A. Your Honours, that's correct that all the commanders of the BH
3 army distanced themselves from those people and they said that they
4 weren't part of the BH army -- or rather, they weren't part of the
5 Territorial Defence, which later became the BH army, and that they
6 belonged to the MOS; that is to say, the Muslim Armed Forces.
7 Q. Thank you. After your exchange on the 17th of May, 1993, up
8 until the end of 1993 -- or rather, up until the signing of the Washington
9 Agreement at the beginning of 1994, you no longer returned to Zenica; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes. I was in Vitez in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. After
12 the exchange, I was assigned to Vitez.
13 Q. So after the 15th of April, you had no personal information or
14 any direct experience about the orders and about the identity of those who
15 implemented certain organisational changes in the army and the 3rd Corps.
16 A. Your Honours, as far as the organisational changes in the 3rd
17 Corps are concerned, in the course of the conflict between the Croats and
18 the Bosniaks I knew very little about that. But it wasn't as if I had no
19 information. I had some relatives and friends in Zenica who held middle
20 ranks, and I heard about a lot of things from them. But at the
21 negotiations in Vakuf, at that time we already started exchanging
23 Q. The negotiations in Vakuf were in 1994.
24 A. In February, towards the end of February.
25 Q. Yesterday you testified before this Court - and you have repeated
1 this today - that your brigade was only -- was in the process of being
2 founded and it wasn't very well equipped, neither in terms of staff or in
3 terms of weapons.
4 A. Your Honours, the brigade was formed on the 18th of February.
5 There were about 1.900 men in it. There was about 55 to 60 per cent of
6 infantry weapons. Not all the soldiers had weapons, not to talk about
7 communications equipment, and so on. But in April, they started forming
8 another brigade. In fact, this brigade was transformed into two.
9 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also testified - and I'm paraphrasing
10 you to avoid repeating everything - you said you had an intelligence organ
11 within the brigade and that the intelligence organ also filmed part of the
12 investigation conducted in the course of the investigation. Is it true
13 that you had an intelligence organ and that you obtained information from
15 A. Your Honours, there is a chief of an intelligence service in each
16 brigade, and I had such a chief too. But the intelligence officer isn't
17 present at on-site investigations. The on-site investigation after my
18 kidnapping was conducted by the Security Services Centre, which consisted
19 of Bosniaks and Croats, and it also consisted of military police. So no
20 one from the brigade could attend. And I saw in the district -- at the
21 district public prosecutor's that there were photographs of the crime
23 Q. Yes. In the course of that investigation, there were army
24 representatives and civilian police and HVO representatives who were
25 involved in it.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The on-site investigation was carried out by the judge from the
3 district military court and a representative of the district military
4 prosecutor's office was also present. Did you see that?
5 A. No, I didn't see that. This is something I read about, that's
7 Q. Yes, you read about that too.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your first assistant for security in the brigade was Dragan
10 Jonjic; isn't that correct?
11 A. Yes. But he was already being transferred.
12 Q. Before the war, he was someone who worked in a catering
14 A. Yes. He had finished a high school for social work.
15 Q. After him, your assistant for security was Jadranko Jandric; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Before the war, he was a professional soldier. He was a
19 non-commissioned officer in the -- he was a junior officer in the JNA.
20 A. As far as I know, Janko Jandric was an officer in the former JNA,
21 not a non-commissioned officer.
22 Q. I'll now move on to certain other questions that you have also
23 testified about. You testified about them yesterday. When describing
24 your military career, you said that on the 26th of April, 1993, while
25 still in detention, you were appointed to the joint command of the BH army
1 and the HVO.
2 A. I only found out about that when I had been exchanged.
3 Q. In fact, that is a command that was supposed to be formed on the
4 basis of a joint statement from Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban, which
5 they signed on the 25th of April. Franjo Tudjman, the President of the
6 Republic of Croatia, was also present. Is that the command you're
7 referring to?
8 A. Yes, in Zagreb. Yes. It was signed in Zagreb on the 25th, and
9 that document does exist.
10 Q. You mean the document exists in the case that you have already
11 testified in?
12 A. Yes. I've provided it here. It's a public document. It's a
13 political statement. And on the basis of that political statement, Mr. --
14 issued by Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Mate Boban - and it was also signed by
15 Dr. Franjo Tudjman - the commander at the HVO Main Staff at the time was
16 General Petkovic. He assigned the officers from the HVO who would be in
17 that command, the joint command for the BH and for the Operative Zone of
18 Mostar and for the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia.
19 Q. Is it correct to say that from the very first day, the HVO
20 obstructed the work of the joint command?
21 A. No. Your Honours, from the very first day, I think that the
22 joint command was obstructed by the BH army.
23 Q. Is it correct to say that the HVO had various pretexts to
24 reject -- to not appear at the meeting scheduled at the last minute?
25 A. I'm not aware of that. Whenever we were summoned to meet, we
1 appeared at those meetings.
2 Q. Is it correct to say that Mr. Stjepan Siber, who was a
3 representative of the BH army, asked on a number of occasions from the HVO
4 representatives to declare whether they would work in the command or not?
5 A. Your Honours, Mr. Stjepan Siber did say that. But who was
6 Stjepan Siber at the time? Just a figurehead. The others were those who
7 decided what to do.
8 Q. Is it correct to say that you attended a meeting on the 28th of
9 June, 1993 in Vitez? UNPROFOR and the EU monitors were present, and on
10 that occasion Mr. Stjepan Siber asked you one more time to declare whether
11 you would be appointing people to the joint command and to declare whether
12 you wanted to participate in that command? Did you attend that meeting?
13 A. Your Honours, I did attend that meeting. Stjepan Siber did want
14 people to be appointed. But he then wanted to start working in Zenica,
15 where no one could provide any sort of guarantees. And he used various
16 tricks, not Mr. Siber but Kadric. He asked both Mr. Hadzihasanovic and
17 Mr. Blaskic in quite dramatic terms. He addressed both of them in
18 dramatic terms. He asked them to do everything to put an end to the
19 conflict, and Siber also spoke about that.
20 Q. Is it correct to say that these attempts made by the BH army, to
21 ensure that this joint command functioned, after such obstructions Siber
22 sent complaints to UNPROFOR and the European Community and to the Supreme
23 Command of the army, as well as to the staff in Grude? Is it correct that
24 he sent letters of complaint?
25 A. Your Honours, I don't know about any letters of complaints sent
1 by Mr. Siber, but when those meetings of the joint command were held, they
2 were held in the UNPROFOR base in Stara Bila -- while we were still at the
3 meeting, there was an attack, and then there were accusations. We weren't
4 in a position to jointly act. I think the 3rd Corps carried out planned
5 actions, planned attacks to obstruct the cessation of hostilities. We
6 were practically defending ourselves at the time. We didn't have forces
7 to attack anyone. We were just defending our lives.
8 Q. In fact, since you were never official appointed and you never
9 became a member at the numerous requests of the international community
10 and the requests made by General Siber, the joint command became senseless
11 and after the 28th of June it no longer had any meetings; isn't that
13 A. Yes. That would be the period more or less. There simply
14 weren't any more meetings.
15 Q. Very well. I'll now turn -- I'll now go back to another subject,
16 which we've stopped discussing since we started discussing your
17 kidnapping. This was an important issue that you have testified about. A
18 while ago we said - and you confirmed this; although, you also added that
19 there were other armed forces, so that's why I'm asking you again - do you
20 know that on the 8th of April, 1993 the Territorial Defence was declared
21 as the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
22 A. And the HVO.
23 Q. The Territorial Defence on that day.
24 A. Yes, the Territorial Defence, yes. But the HVO was also declared
25 to be such.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask the witness
2 to be shown --
3 Q. I apologise. In 1992, not in 1993. So on the 8th of April, 1992
4 would be the date on which the Territorial Defence was declared.
5 A. Yes, I know it was in 1992. The 20th of April is the HVO day.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps it would be
7 appropriate now, since I'll be showing the witness a number of documents,
8 perhaps it would be good to have a break and then we can show all these
9 documents to the witness after the break.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we adjourn, you've given
11 us two documents. Do you intend to tender them into evidence? The
12 document that is a statement he made on the 13th of October, he gave the
13 statement to someone who is apparently a member of a security service,
14 Mr. Damjanovic; and another document, he signed all the pages, and it was
15 provided to the authorities. Do you want to tender these documents into
16 evidence or not?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
18 tender at least one of the two documents into evidence. Perhaps both.
19 But I'll be suggesting that one of the documents be tendered into
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. For the moment, you
22 don't know which one. Very well. So how many more documents do you have?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a total of
24 ten documents. We've provided two so far. But I don't think there'll be
25 much discussion about the documents, so we should be able to deal with it
1 quite quickly.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Because we'll
3 resume at five to 1.00 but we'll only have 45 minutes then. Will that be
4 sufficient for you to conclude your cross-examination and re-examination,
5 if there's going to be any re-examination, or will we have to continue on
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished
8 more than half of my cross-examination. I'll try to conclude my
9 cross-examination, but I can't promise anything. There could be
10 objections. There could be -- we might need decisions to be rendered. So
11 I'm not sure that I'll be able to conclude today. But during the break I
12 will try to ensure that we can conclude with my cross-examination by 2.00.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we will resume
14 at five to 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf -- I'm sorry, the
18 Defence. I'm sorry. The Defence -- I somehow thought you were finished.
19 I'm sorry.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [No interpretation]
21 [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
22 Mr. President, I have an answer to your question. We're going to
23 tender only the document dated 13 October. Since the witness confirmed
24 that he did hold this confirmation and that he signed the report, can we
25 please tender this document into evidence.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we please
2 have a number for this exhibit.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P42 --
4 sorry, DH42. I apologise.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] DH42.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have two versions, an
8 English version and a B/C/S version, so we have to have two numbers
10 THE REGISTRAR: And the English translation of the document will
11 get the exhibit number DH42/E.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as regards the
14 questions that I have put so far, I'm going to ask just one more question
15 that I omitted to put to the witness. The witness said that he gave a
16 written statement, if one may call it that, a written document while he
17 was preparing for the Kordic case. We have a copy which we will not
18 tender into evidence. Can this be shown to the witness, please.
19 Q. Mr. Totic, is this the document?
20 A. I know that I gave a statement. It is probably that document.
21 Q. Can you please look at --
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, we didn't get a copy of this
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have copies for
25 everybody in the courtroom, or do you just have your copy, a copy for
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have copies for
3 everybody. But I have only one question. Maybe the witness can put the
4 document on the ELMO. But I believe we can work even without this
5 document because we are going to use this just in order to discredit the
6 witness. It is not going to go for the truthfulness of the contents.
7 Can the Prosecutor --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You may give -- maybe
9 give a copy to the Prosecution.
10 Mr. Usher, can you please go and get the copy from Mr. Bourgon
11 and hand it over to Mr. Withopf so that Mr. Withopf can follow the
12 questions according to the paragraph.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Totic, please look at paragraph 44. Is it correct that in
15 the last sentence of that paragraph you say: "Moreover, during the
16 negotiations between Muslims and Croats in Uskoplje, after the signing of
17 the Washington Agreement in March 1994, at the moment of frustration
18 Merdan shouted at me. He raised his voice, and he said that he wished
19 that the Mujahedin had killed me while they held me hostage"? Is this
20 what it says here?
21 A. Yes. But he told me first, "Why didn't we kill you when we had
22 you," and then this. I had this in my notebook among the notes that I
23 took at that meeting.
24 Q. So what it says here, what I've just read, is different than what
25 you said on page 35, line 13 of the transcript of today's hearing; is that
1 correct? This is not the same.
2 A. It's not the same here; however, I'm telling you that he did tell
3 me what I said earlier, and I have that in my notebook under that date.
4 Q. We are moving on to a different topic.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the witness to
6 be shown Exhibit DH36.
7 Q. Mr. Totic, this is an order issued by Mr. Mate Boban on 10 April
8 1992. Tell me, please, did you ever see this order before?
9 A. Your Honours, I see it for the first time. I never saw it
11 Q. Mr. Totic, did you know that Mate Boban, president of the
12 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, proclaimed the Territorial Defence
13 illegal in the whole of the territory of the Croatian Community of
15 A. I knew that the HVO was also legally established and organised.
16 That's what I knew.
17 Q. So your answer --
18 A. This was confirmed by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina in
19 April 1992. It was recognised that there were two armed formations: The
20 Territorial Defence and the Croatian Defence Council. Those were the two
21 legal military formations.
22 Q. Please, for the transcript, can you answer my question. Were you
23 aware of this order dated 10th April, issued by Mate Boban, pursuant to
24 which the Territorial Defence was proclaimed an illegal military structure
25 in the territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?
1 A. Your Honours, no. I see this order for the first time.
2 Q. Thank you. You may give this document back to me.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now can the witness be shown
4 another document, DH30 and DH41 ID.
5 Q. Mr. Totic, were you aware of the fact that in May 1992 the
6 Presidency issued a decree with legal effect on the Armed Forces of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina? And this is the first document, the decree with legal
8 effect on the armed forces.
9 A. Your Honours, I have never seen this decree before. I was a
10 brigade commander. I never read it. I acted in accordance with the law.
11 Q. Can you please look at the shorter document. These are
12 amendments to the decree on armed forces. Is it true, Mr. Totic, that all
13 the armed forces were required to fight those who attacked Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina at the time: The JNA, the Serbian forces? So on the 6th of
15 August, 1993, the decree on armed forces was amended and it was stated
16 then that the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina are the army, the
17 HVO, and other military formations that place themselves under the command
18 of the BH army? Is that what it says in here?
19 A. The HVO?
20 Q. Please look at the wording of the decree. Again, I apologise.
21 It was on the 6th of August, 1992, not 1993.
22 A. Your Honour, I'm reading this for the first time. I only know
23 that in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina there were two legal armed
24 forces, two militaries, and they both fought the aggressor, and those were
25 the HVO and the Territorial Defence, which was later on turned into the BH
1 army. I was a member of the Croatian Defence Council.
2 Q. Is it true, Mr. Totic, that the Croatian Defence Council never
3 placed itself under the command of the Supreme Staff of the BH army in
4 1992 and in 1993?
5 A. Your Honours, the Croatian Defence Council -- from my point of
6 view, I was a brigade commander. I don't know what was at the very top.
7 We recognised all the decisions of the Presidency of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina until the moment while a Croatian member was still there, and
9 that was Mr. Boras. He had been elected to that body. Later on I don't
10 know whether the decisions were recognised or not at that time.
11 Q. However, these decisions that you're looking at by the armed
12 forces were proposed by Jerko Doko, who was elected in the elections, and
13 the Presidency also had some elected members representing the Croatian
14 people. I don't want to enter any legal discussions with you, but I would
15 like to know whether Croatian Defence Council after the 6th of August was
16 under the command of the Main Staff in Grude?
17 A. The HVO was under the command of the Main Staff of the HVO. And
18 the commander at the time was General Milivoje Petkovic.
19 Q. Thank you very much. May we please have the two documents back.
20 I would like to go back to your testimony about the way you
21 joined the HVO and the time you joined it. Is it true, Mr. Totic, that at
22 the beginning of May 1992 in Zenica you were invited to a meeting and that
23 you realised that it was a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Zenica HDZ,
24 which was a -- the Croatian national party, and that during that meeting
25 the establishment and the organisation of the HVO units in Zenica were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. No, not in the area of Zenica, but in the area of my native town.
3 And it was not in May. It was towards the end of April. I believe that
4 it was on the 29th of April.
5 Q. Is it true that at that time, in mid-May 1992, you were also
6 invited by the commander of the Territorial Defence, Dzemal Najetovic,
7 also an officer of the former JNA, who also led the JNA, just like you,
8 and he asked you to join his brigade as his deputy, as the deputy
9 commander of the 1st Zenica Brigade?
10 A. Yes, that is correct. It was towards the end of May 1992. He
11 did not invite me. We actually bumped into each other when he and his
12 brigade intimidated people in Croatian villages. That's when he made this
13 offer to me, and I told him that I could only accept that when the
14 Territorial Defence would consist of both peoples. At that time, over 95
15 per cent of the members of the Territorial Defence were Muslims.
16 Q. So, Mr. Totic, for the second time - the first time, when you
17 received the mobilisation call-up papers, and the second time, when you
18 were invited by the commander of the 1st Zenica Brigade - you refused to
19 join the Territorial Defence, which was at the time the legal force of --
20 armed force of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. After that, you appeared in the Municipal Staff of the HVO and
23 you placed yourself at their disposal on the 10th of June, 1992.
24 A. Yes. Before that, I held several conversations with them. And
25 then I joined on the 10th June 1992.
1 Q. Your first task was to form an HVO battalion in your village, and
2 you were appointed a commander of that battalion; is that true?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Already at that time the HVO had already established its
5 presidency as the civilian body of authority; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. At that time, in Zenica there were all the legally elected
8 authorities, which in 1992 and 1993 were still multi-ethnic.
9 A. I don't know whether they were multi-ethnic. I was not involved
10 in politics.
11 Q. On the 28th of July, 1992, you were invited to a meeting of the
12 HVO presidency in Zenica, and you realised that they wanted you to become
13 the commander of the HVO Zenica.
14 A. Yes. I was appointed --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like the witness to
16 repeat this answer, please.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. On the following day, you --
19 Your answer has not been recorded. Can you please repeat?
20 A. The answer was yes, I was appointed. At the proposal of the HVO
21 Zenica, I was appointed to the duty in the Municipal Staff of Zenica.
22 Q. As a matter of fact, on the following day, after this
23 conversation in the presidency of the Zenica HVO, you met with
24 Colonel Blaskic, the commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone; and
25 with Dario Kordic, the vice-president of the Croatian Community of
1 Herceg-Bosna; and Ignac Kostroman, the secretary of the HDZ and the
2 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is correct that on the following day I met with them.
4 But not in Zenica. It was in Busovaca.
5 Q. I never mentioned Zenica. You may have misunderstood me.
6 A. Yes, you did mention Zenica, in the Municipal Staff.
7 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that.
8 You were appointed by Tihomir Blaskic, the commander of the staff
9 in Zenica, and gave you your first task to establish the Municipal Staff
10 and to train people for combat activities.
11 A. The Municipal Staff was already under formation, and it was
12 headed by Mr. Zoran Covic. It had already existed. It had already been
14 Q. Mr. Totic, in order for me to ask you some further questions and
15 in order to enable the Trial Chamber and my learned friends to follow, I
16 believe that we can do it in the following way: You are a native of
17 Zenica. Were you aware of the situation in Zenica and in its
18 surroundings? Are you familiar with that area?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am now going to ask the usher
21 to show the witness a map of the area, and I will ask the witness to mark
22 certain places on this map, the places that he is familiar with.
23 We have enough copies for the Trial Chamber and for the
25 Q. Mr. Totic, can you tell us what this map represents? What can
1 you see?
2 A. This is a topographic map, and the scale is 1 to 100.000, and it
3 depicts Zenica. I know 95 per cent of these places. I've been to all of
5 Q. Mr. Totic, can you please put number "1" next to the centre of
6 the town of Zenica. Can you be given a pencil, please.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Also, can you mark the places that I'm going to mention. Put a
9 circle around them. First Stranjani, the place where you were born, as
10 far as I understood it.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Then can you please mark Novo Selo -- actually, Ovnak.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Then can you please mark Cajdras.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Kozarci.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. A place close to Preocica, Lupac.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Vjetrenice, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Kuber as well.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Maybe you won't find the name here, but maybe you know where
25 Kaonik is. Can you put a circle around it and can you add in your own
1 hand "Kaonik."
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Can you also mark Lasva.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Thank you very much. Now we can see it better.
6 Again, there is no name here, but if you know, can you please
7 show where Stara Zenica is. Can you mark the area of Stara Zenica.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. And now I would kindly ask you to put numbers from 1 onwards,
10 mark all these different places, and tell us what the places are, because
11 we want to have it on record. So number 1 will be the centre of Zenica,
12 and so on and so forth. Can I please ask you to do that.
13 A. The centre of Zenica; number 2, you asked for Stranjani; number
14 3, Novo Selo; number 4, Lupac; number 5, Cajdras; number 6, Kozarci;
15 number 7, Vjetrenice; 8, Kuber; 9, Kaonik; 10, Lasva; 11, Stara Zenica.
16 Q. Could you also mark Radakovo with the following number. And I
17 don't know whether I asked you about Lokvine.
18 A. No, you didn't. Here it is, number 13.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness has recognised
21 the map as part of a topographic map and he has marked various locations,
22 I would like to ask the witness to sign the map and make a note of the
23 date and we will be tendering this map into evidence. But I will be using
24 this map in order to ask some additional questions.
25 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, this is most likely only a pure
1 technical issue; however, I would like to ask my learned colleague to
2 first ask the questions, since only afterwards the map can be tendered
3 into evidence. So far we don't know for what purpose the witness was
4 asked to mark the different locations.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's not a
6 problem. After having asked the witness the questions, I can suggest that
7 this map be tendered into evidence. So we don't have to discuss this
8 matter now.
9 Could the witness now be shown an order dated the 24th of
10 October, 1992. This is so I can ask the question -- ask the witness some
12 We have a sufficient number of copies for the Chamber and for our
13 learned colleagues from the Prosecution.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to say that in the
16 course of its investigations, the Defence found this document in the state
17 archives of the Republic of Croatia, which is where HVO documents are
19 Q. Mr. Totic, is this your order?
20 A. Yes, Your Honours, this is an order that I issued.
21 Q. Would it be correct to say that under item 2, the 1st Platoon is
22 ordered not to allow the BH army forces along the Zenica --
23 Vjetrenice-Zenica-Ovanaka road. The 2nd Platoon is to -- is to take
24 action with neighbours to prevent the passage of BH army forces from
25 Lokonet [phoen] to Vjetrenice to Lokvine.
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Given that the witness has
3 recognised the document as his own and confirmed its contents, I suggest
4 that this document be admitted into evidence.
5 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.
7 MR. WITHOPF: I'm sure my learned colleague can explain the
8 relevance of this document prior to tendering it into evidence. The
9 Prosecution, at least so far, fails to see the relevance of this document.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. What is the purpose of
11 tendering this document into evidence? Is it to prove that he actually
12 held a position and was commander of the forces in the Zenica
13 headquarters? What is the objective of tendering this document into
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the course of his
16 examination-in-chief, the Prosecution asked the witness about events that
17 took place in Dusina in January and the witness said that the army had
18 carried out an attack against Dusina. The next few documents will be --
19 that will be shown relates to those allegations in the indictment and will
20 relate to what the witness said in the course of the examination-in-chief.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Again, most likely a pure technical issue. I would
23 suggest the Defence is only allowed to tender this document into evidence
24 once my learned colleague asks the additional questions.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have already
2 asked a question concerning the document. The document clearly shows that
3 the witness personally issued an order forbidding the BH army to pass
4 through very important roads. And under item 5 in that document, there is
5 an order for -- to carry out reconnaissance of enemy forces; that is to
6 say, the army. The witness has spoken about the joint army, and so on,
7 but all the questions about the document and its contents are evident from
8 the document itself. The witness confirmed that this was a document that
9 he issued and that he issued these orders to his units.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll wait for the
11 additional questions to be put before we take a decision. Please continue
12 with your questions.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If possible, could we immediately
14 mark this document for identification to avoid confusion? Because I will
15 be tendering certain other documents into evidence and you, Your Honours,
16 will decide on whether to admit this document into evidence.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's mark the
18 document for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be DH43, marked for
20 identification for the B/C/S version; and DH43/E, marked for
21 identification for the English translation.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the map is concerned,
23 Mr. Withopf, are there any problems relating to the map at the moment or
24 do you want to express yourself about this matter later?
25 MR. WITHOPF: Again, at least so far, the Prosecution fails to
1 see the relevance of both the map and this document, and I wish to draw
2 the attention of the Trial Chamber to the date of the document which is
3 marked for identification with DH43. It's the 24th of October, 1992;
4 whereas, the crime in Dusina was committed on the 26th of January, 1993.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will also mark
6 the map for identification.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the number will be DH44, marked for
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now help me to
10 show the following two documents to the witness, one that is dated the
11 14th of January, 1993, and one dated the 15th of January, 1993
12 Could we leave the map before the witness, since he might be
13 using it to answer the questions that I will be asking him.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a document which is
15 dated the 14th of January and another document, dated the 15th of January.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would just like
17 to draw your attention to the fact that this document dated the 15th of
18 January, 1993 has already been shown to a witness and it has an
19 identification number, DH2/E ID. We have now handed this document out so
20 that everyone could have a copy of the document and so as not to have to
21 look for it among the documents already marked for identification.
22 Q. Mr. Totic, this document from the police administration, dated
23 the 14th of January, 1993, someone signed it for Chief Valentin Coric.
24 Have you previously seen this document?
25 A. Your Honours, I've never seen this document before, neither of
1 the documents.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 Please have a look at the second document, dated the 15th of
4 January, which was issued by the HVO Main Staff to all HVO units, and it
5 was signed by the HVO chief, Milivoje Petkovic. Did you receive this
6 order as a brigade commander to which it was forwarded? Are you familiar
7 with this document?
8 A. Your Honours, I did not receive this order because the brigade
9 under my command wasn't part of the Main Staff. It was part of the
10 Central Bosnia Operative Zone. This is the first time I've seen this
11 document. Because I didn't receive documents from the top level.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
14 a document dated the 16th of January, 1993.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as the document
16 DH2, marked for identification, which has already been presented, for
17 technical reasons it should be shown. The document that the registrar has
18 should be shown, not a new copy.
19 So, Mr. Registrar, you will give the usher document DH2.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] When showing this, Your Honours,
21 we didn't have the English version. Now we have the English translation
22 of the document. And as in the case of the previous document, this
23 document was obtained in the HVO archives, which are in the state archives
24 in Zagreb. The Defence obtained the document in the course of its
1 Q. Mr. Totic, this document is dated the 16th of January, 1993,
2 011184/93, signed by Commander Tihomir Blaskic.
3 A. Your Honours, this document, dated the 15th of January, was
4 signed by the chief of staff, Milivoje Petkovic.
5 Q. I apologise. I wanted you to be shown a different document. You
6 have already commented on this first document.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the
8 witness another document, dated the 16th of January, 1993.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which we don't have. The
10 document dated the 16th of January, we don't have that one.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before the witness comments on
12 this document, could we mark the document dated the 15th of January for
13 identification, the document signed by Milivoje Petkovic. This is a
14 document that the witness has already seen.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But this document
16 has already been given a number, DH2/E. Why do you want a new number?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't want a new number. I
18 just want this document to be marked for identification. I want the
19 English version to be marked for identification too, because as I have
20 already said, Your Honours, only the B/C/S version was previously marked
21 for identification.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have a document
23 DH2 in B/C/S, and we have been presented with the English translation.
24 Mr. Registrar, the document dated the 15th of January, 1993, the
25 English translation of that text requires a number, and it has to be
1 marked with an "E."
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH2/E,
3 marked for identification.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Totic, this document is 01-184/93 dated the 16th of January,
6 1993, signed by Commander Tihomir Blaskic. Did you receive this document?
7 Because it was forwarded to all units in the Central Bosnia Operative
8 Zone. Are you familiar with the contents of this document?
9 A. Your Honours, if this is the original signature -- but I don't
10 think this is Blaskic's signature. I have a vague recollection of
11 receiving that order, but I really can't remember the precise details.
12 Q. Mr. Totic, would it be correct to say that under item 2, line 3
13 there is an order according to which all Muslims in HVO units are to be
14 disarmed and isolated?
15 A. Your Honours, not that all Muslims should be disarmed but that
16 Muslims who don't obey orders are to be disarmed. That's what it says.
17 Not all of them, only those who don't obey orders.
18 Q. Under item 4, are you ordered to control the traffic and
19 transport of Muslims with equipment and weapons and such equipment and
20 weapons should be confiscated and placed at the disposal of the HVO
21 forces? Is that what it says here?
22 A. Your Honours, it says that forces from the Jure Francetic Zenica
23 Brigade and the Subic Zrinski Busovaca units should check the routes. But
24 I wasn't ordered to confiscate anything. This wasn't my right. This is a
25 new line. It says: "The 4th Battalion of the military police."
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness
2 can remember this order and the contents of the order, I would like this
3 document to be admitted into evidence and I would like it to be given an
4 exhibit number.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have an
6 exhibit number --
7 But yes, Mr. Withopf, you wanted to say something. It will still
8 be marked for identification though.
9 Mr. Withopf, you wanted to say something.
10 MR. WITHOPF: If it's only for the purpose of marking it for
11 identification, I wouldn't object. If it's for the purpose to tender it,
12 I would certainly object, since I can't see the relevance of this
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have it
15 marked for identification, Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH45,
17 marked for identification.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] DH45. But we have B/C/S and
19 English versions, so ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: The English translation will get the exhibit
21 number DH45/E, marked for identification.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please carry on.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
24 document -- I think it's 099 through 93 dated the 16th of January, 1993.
25 Q. Mr. Totic, is this an order that you issued?
1 A. Your Honours, yes, it is.
2 Q. For the sake of the transcript, I would like to point out that in
3 the course of our investigations we found this order among documents used
4 in the Kordic case.
5 Mr. Totic, would it be correct to say that as a brigade commander
6 on the 16th of January, 1993 you refer to an order from the HVO Main Staff
7 in Mostar, number 0166 through 93, dated the 15th of January - I showed it
8 to you a minute ago - and also to an order from the command if the Central
9 Bosnia Operative Zone, number 011-184/93, dated the 16th of January, 1993?
10 Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, I referred to the order by the commander of the operative
12 zone, which is based on the order from the Main Staff, which I didn't have
13 at the time, because the --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Under item 2 in this order, line 3, is it correct to say that you
17 requested that all the Muslims in brigade units of the HVO who do not
18 respect --
19 A. The orders.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
22 MR. WITHOPF: The witness has been asked to repeat the answer.
23 Obviously it was not possible to translate it for the transcript. So can
24 the witness please be asked the question again and he may please repeat
25 the answer.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please ask the witness
2 the question again.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Totic, is it correct that in this order you refer to an order
5 issued by the HVO Main Staff in 01-66/93 dated the 16th of January, 1993?
6 I've already shown this to you. And you also refer to an order from the
7 command of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, 01-185 through 93, dated the
8 16th of January, 1993? Are -- you recognised this a minute ago. Is
9 that -- are those the orders you referred to? Please answer the question.
10 A. Your Honours, I referred to those two orders. But I never saw
11 orders from the Main Staff. It's based on orders from the -- the orders
12 from the command of that zone is based on those orders.
13 Q. Mr. Totic, is it correct to say that in this order you're
14 ordering your units - that's item 2, line 3 - that all Muslims in units of
15 HVO brigades who fail to obey our orders should be disarmed, isolated, and
16 you should be immediately informed of it?
17 A. Yes. That concerns those who fail to obey orders.
18 Q. Is it true that under item 3 you order the battalion commanders
19 to organise supervision of all the movements by Muslim forces and
20 especially -- can you please put the map on the ELMO.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do we have the time? There is
22 a hearing after ours, so we're going to face a problem.
23 Is there -- Mr. Registrar, is there something that should take
24 place in this courtroom? Yes, it seems there is the Strugar case in the
25 same courtroom. We are, therefore, obliged to stop here, to adjourn at
1 this point.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm just going to kindly ask
3 before we adjourn to have an exhibit number given to the last document. I
4 want to avoid any confusions when we continue our cross-examination. Can
5 we have an identification number for the document that the witness
6 recognised as the one produced by himself.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you have the
9 MR. WITHOPF: Very briefly. If it's only for the purpose of an
10 identification number, we don't object. If it's for the purpose of
11 tendering it into evidence, we would object at this stage.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just for the purpose of
13 identification, can you give us a number for the order that was signed by
14 the witness on the 16th of January, 1993, Mr. Registrar. Can we have an
15 identification number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be DH46, marked for
17 identification for the B/C/S version; and DH46/E, marked for
18 identification for the English translation.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] DH46/E for English and DH46 for
21 We have another problem, Madam Residovic?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague has just suggested
23 that the document produced in October should also be marked for
24 identification. This is the document dated 24 October. This hasn't been
25 done so far. So before we adjourn, can this document, dated 24th October,
1 be also given an identification number.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the document produced on
3 the 24th of October, what document is that? What document are we talking
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague has drawn my
6 attention to the fact that the document dated 14 January has not been
7 given an identification number. I apologise. I have headphones -- I
8 didn't hear well. So the document dated 14 January has not been given an
9 ID number.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. 14 January is
11 the document signed by Mr. Coric -- so that was a document signed by
12 Mr. Valentin Coric. Can we have an identification number for this
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH47,
15 marked for identification for the B/C/S version; and DH47/E, marked for
16 identification for the English translation.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have to continue on
18 Monday from 14.15 on.
19 Witness, unfortunately you're going to have to spend the weekend
20 in The Hague and wait for Monday. You maybe would like to go home
21 already; however, the circumstances are such that you will have to come
22 back on Monday at 14.15. Please be in the Tribunal building as from --
23 for 2.00 in the afternoon.
24 Is there anything else that is -- needs to be said?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We are going
2 to adjourn. We are still waiting for the two submissions regarding the
3 digging of trenches and cruel treatment. You have promised to the Trial
4 Chamber that you're going to submit these submissions on Monday. There is
5 no urgency. It may be on Tuesday or on Wednesday. But this is still
7 Mr. Withopf, do you have anything to say?
8 MR. WITHOPF: Very briefly. That's in respect to the witness
9 schedule for next week, and for that purpose can we please go into private
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we are going to ask
12 you to leave the courtroom and return on Monday. The usher is going to
13 show you out of the courtroom.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are moving into private
17 [Private session]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of
15 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.