Page 3337
1 Tuesday, 24 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin, Chester Stamp, Ekkehard
13 Withopf, and the case manager, Kimberly Fleming.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
15 And could we have the appearances for the Defence.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
17 behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel;
18 Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis Demirdjian, our legal assistant.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 And could we have the appearances for the other Defence team.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
24 Mr. Mulalic, our legal assistant.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 3338
1 I'd like to greet everyone in the courtroom, the representatives
2 of the Prosecution, the Defence teams, and the accused. And naturally,
3 all the administrative personnel, and in particular the interpreters, who
4 are doing a good job.
5 We have to carry on with our examination, but we will first
6 render an oral decision about the question that was raised yesterday with
7 regard to how to tender documents into evidence.
8 So in the light of what was said yesterday, the Trial Chamber
9 would like to point out that both the Defence and the Prosecution
10 submitted a motion concerning the manner of proceeding when tendering
11 documents into evidence.
12 In order to save time in the course of the proceedings, and in
13 particular when thousands of documents are presented, the parties
14 requested that the Trial Chamber state its position with regard to this
15 matter.
16 The Trial Chamber took into consideration the relevant elements,
17 the relevant provisions in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, in
18 particular Rule 90(F), which provides that the Trial Chamber can control
19 the manner of examining a witness and the manner of presenting evidence,
20 as well as the order of interrogating witnesses to make the examination,
21 the presentation of evidence effective for the determination of truth and
22 to avoid needless consumption of time.
23 And for the foregoing reasons, the Trial Chamber renders the
24 following decision, which is to be respected by both parties:
25 The consolidated list drawn up by the Prosecution, the list of
Page 3339
1 all the documents, the documents that were provided to General Reinhardt,
2 the expert witness, as well as all the other documents or exhibits must
3 be provided to the Trial Chamber on the 10th of March -- by the 10th of
4 March, 2004, at the latest. The Prosecution must mention in this
5 consolidated list the exhibits that have already been admitted into
6 evidence or that are in the process of being identified. A definitive
7 number or temporary number may already have been given to these documents
8 by the registrar.
9 The Defence must state its position with regard to this list
10 before the 25th of March, 2004, at the latest, and they must indicate in
11 particular which documents or exhibits are not being contested by the
12 Defence and they must indicate which documents or exhibits are contested
13 by the Defence. The Defence will have 15 days after this consolidated
14 list has been presented.
15 In the course of the hearing that will be held on Thursday, the
16 8th of April, 2004, the Trial Chamber will rule on the matter of
17 tendering these documents into evidence and will request that the
18 registrar on that date - on the 8th of April, 2004 - give an exhibit
19 number for the documents that aren't contested by the Defence and the
20 registrar will be asked to mark the documents that are contested for
21 identification. The procedure just described shall only concern the
22 exhibits that the Prosecution is preparing to present when calling
23 witnesses after the week that starts on the 19th of April, 2004.
24 The Prosecution will continue up until the 8th of April, 2004, to
25 tender its documents into evidence in accordance with the procedure that
Page 3340
1 is currently being followed when the Prosecution calls its witnesses.
2 The Trial Chamber would also like to state that it desires to
3 have a list of documents that the Prosecution intends to present when a
4 witness is testifying before this witness actually testifies. To this
5 effect, the internal memorandum from the Prosecution, which concerns, and
6 I quote, "the order in which witnesses will be appearing" should be
7 completed and mention should be made of the exhibits that they intend to
8 use when examining each witness in the course of the week, from Monday to
9 Friday.
10 Just to give you an example: In the memorandum that I'm showing
11 the parties you can see that a number of witnesses have been scheduled
12 for next week. The names of the witnesses are mentioned. In brackets
13 next to the name one should indicate the documents that the Prosecution
14 intends to present. This document, drafted in this manner, won't be
15 binding on the Prosecution in that the Prosecution can present exhibits
16 at the eleventh hour, since circumstances might be such. So the fact
17 that reference is made to a number of documents next to a name doesn't
18 mean that the Prosecution cannot add other documents if it so desires.
19 The oral decision that the Trial Chamber has just rendered shall
20 not concern the exhibits presented by a party in the course of its
21 cross-examination. In order to avoid wasting any time when the
22 cross-examination is being conducted, the Trial Chamber would like to
23 remind the Defence that when cross-examining, when the Defence presents
24 an exhibit, they must state the origin of the document - that is to say,
25 the source, the date, et cetera - they must mention any other useful
Page 3341
1 information concerning the document. And in addition, they must inform
2 the Trial Chamber of the relevance of the document and must provide
3 grounds for the document's relevance.
4 So I'd like to ask everyone to reread the transcript very
5 carefully, because it might appear a little complicated. But the Trial
6 Chamber has taken note of the comments made by both parties, and it is
7 the Trial Chamber's opinion that this procedure could have a beneficial
8 effect, as far as tendering documents into evidence is concerned, and it
9 would enable us to save time.
10 I think that you have understood me correctly. Up until the 19th
11 of April, we will proceed as we have done to date. And as of the 19th of
12 April, we shall start applying this new procedure.
13 We can now call the witness into the courtroom. Could the usher
14 lower the blinds, to prevent the witness from being seen.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Can you
17 hear me?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.
20 We are in open session, but protective measures are in place. If
21 Mr. Stamp thinks it is necessary that we should go into private session,
22 you should ask us to do so, Mr. Stamp.
23 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you very much.
24 WITNESS: WITNESS ZC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
Page 3342
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Page 3343
1 Examined by Mr. Stamp: [Continued]
2 Q. The last time you were here, Witness, you were telling us about a
3 beating inflicted upon you about five days after you arrived at the
4 furniture salon. Who, or which group, beat you?
5 A. I saw two guards who were there during the day and another two
6 persons. I don't know who they were.
7 Q. Were the other two persons in uniform?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you say what type of uniform they had on.
10 A. I don't know. Ordinary camouflage uniforms.
11 Q. Was there anything that indicated to which unit they belonged?
12 A. Well, I couldn't even see, because it was dark.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. Not at the time.
15 Q. You said that many other prisoners were beaten, sometimes five to
16 six per night. Do you remember any of them beaten in any particularly
17 severe way?
18 A. I remember that that night five or six persons were taken out.
19 Mladen Havranek was the last one, and he died after having been beaten.
20 Q. Well, tell us about that night. You said you remember that night
21 five or six persons were taken out. Just tell us what happened that
22 night, the night that Mladen Havranek died.
23 A. As I said, he was the last person to be taken out. He was either
24 the fifth or the sixth person. I can't remember exactly. But when
25 someone went out, you could hear that person groaning. You could hear
Page 3344
1 the person being beaten. And this was especially the case when Mladen
2 was taken out. When they had finished beating the late Mladen, they sent
3 him back down the stairs to the basement. But he wasn't able to reach
4 the basement. He said something; I can't remember what. The other
5 detainees who were in the basement approached him. He wasn't able to
6 walk. He sat down. They thought that he wasn't well. They called a
7 guard, told him he was dying.
8 After that, they took him away somewhere, but I don't know what
9 happened to him. I never saw him again, but I heard that he died.
10 Q. Who took him away?
11 A. I don't know. I suppose the persons who beat him.
12 Q. Now, you said you remained at the furniture salon for
13 approximately 20 days, I think. Where were you taken, if anywhere, after
14 that?
15 A. They took me to the stadium, to the local stadium in Bugojno,
16 under the stands, where they had the dressing rooms.
17 Q. Was that stadium known by any particular name?
18 A. The Bugojno Stadium, something like that.
19 Q. Was it used by any particular team or sporting organisation?
20 A. Yes. It was the Iskra Bugojno football team.
21 Q. When you were taken there and put in the rooms underneath the
22 stands, about how many persons were detained in that area?
23 A. I don't know. I think I was one of the first. I was in the
24 first group. At the time, they had already started arriving from other
25 prisons.
Page 3345
1 Q. How long did you remain as a detainee at the stadium?
2 A. I remained there until the exchange on the 19th of March, 1994.
3 Q. Can you remember approximately what date you arrived at the
4 stadium?
5 A. No, I can't remember the date. I've forgotten the date.
6 Q. Approximately what month?
7 A. It was in October, at the beginning of October.
8 Q. Now, in the period of time that you were detained there,
9 approximately how many prisoners were there? Can you help us with that?
10 A. The number was not always the same. There may have been between
11 300 and 400 people; it depended on the moment when you counted. Some
12 were taken for forced labour. At the end, 350 people altogether left the
13 camp.
14 Q. Now, while you were at the stadium, did you learn who was in
15 charge of the facility?
16 A. Gasal was one of the men in charge. I don't know his first name.
17 I've forgotten. And Kukavica was the head of guards or something like
18 that. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Was Kukavica -- is Kukavica a first name or a surname?
20 A. I believe that this is his last name.
21 Q. Now, do you know which unit manned -- withdrawn.
22 The persons in charge, Gasal and Kukavica, were in charge of
23 which unit? Do you know?
24 A. I don't know. I don't know. There were camp commanders or
25 prison wardens. I don't know.
Page 3346
1 Q. Now, while you were there, how were the prisoners generally
2 treated by these guards?
3 A. The treatment was different. Some guards were good; some were
4 bad. At the very beginning, they would beat us more often. We would be
5 taken out for beating more often.
6 Q. Tell us how that was organised. Firstly, having been there for a
7 few months, did you observe any pattern in who would be taken out, or did
8 it appear to you to be at random?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know how they did that.
10 Q. Now, how would they conduct the beatings? And by that I mean how
11 was it organised?
12 A. They would call our names in the evening. That's what was
13 happening at the beginning.
14 Q. And when they called your names, what happened after that?
15 A. They would take people out and beat them in the corridor, outside
16 the room where the detainees were.
17 Q. Were any of the prisoners taken away from the stadium to any
18 other location?
19 A. Some were taken for interrogation. Some would return. Some went
20 missing and their lot is not known, to this very day.
21 Q. Where were they taken to for interrogation?
22 A. As far as I know - and I heard it from other detainees - they
23 were taken to the BH Bank building.
24 Q. Did you know some of the persons who were taken there who did not
25 return?
Page 3347
1 A. I know almost all of them, because they were with me there.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, when you ask a
3 question about a person, maybe we should go into private session, because
4 if he gives certain names that may identify your witness, you have the
5 right to ask to go into private session, if you're going to be asking for
6 names of certain people.
7 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. I think, though, that
8 he'll be referring to persons who were members of the HVO units in
9 Bugojno. That did not give away his identity at all.
10 But perhaps I could ask him. That's the best way to do it.
11 Q. Do you remember the names of some of those who were taken away
12 and have not been seen since?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Do you remember the units that they were members of?
15 A. They were members -- actually, commanders of the military police,
16 the 1st Battalion, the 2nd Battalion, intellectuals, and so on and so
17 forth.
18 MR. STAMP: I'll take your advice, Mr. President, and ask that we
19 go into closed session very briefly -- private session.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
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Page 3349
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8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
20 MR. STAMP:
21 Q. Now, were you and other detainees taken away from the stadium for
22 any particular purpose?
23 A. Well, yes. People were taken to work, to dig trenches on the
24 front line.
25 Q. Very well. You were speaking generally now about people. Let's
Page 3350
1 start with your own personal experience. Were you at any time taken
2 anywhere in this regard?
3 A. Yes. I was taken twice or three times.
4 Q. The first time, where were you taken? Do you recall?
5 A. The first time, I was taken to Podripci. I believe that is the
6 name of the village only front line towards Donji Vakuf, facing the
7 Serbs.
8 Q. Did you volunteer to go, or were you taken against your will?
9 A. Against my will.
10 Q. Now, what -- how long did you remain there?
11 A. Ten to fifteen days.
12 Q. And what did you do while you were there?
13 A. We were digging trenches and dugouts.
14 Q. Where were these trenches and dugouts in relation to the front
15 line which you just mentioned?
16 A. I didn't understand your question.
17 Q. Well, you mentioned that you were taken to Podripci, a village in
18 the vicinity of the front lines, to dig trenches. What I want to know is
19 how far were these trenches and dugouts that you excavated from these
20 front lines.
21 A. It was on the very front line.
22 Q. And when you went there, were you accompanied by guards from the
23 stadium, or were you put in the custody of other persons?
24 A. We were handed over to other persons, into their custody.
25 Q. Who were these other persons?
Page 3351
1 A. Those were predominantly men from the unit that was on that front
2 line.
3 Q. And the unit of which army was that?
4 A. I don't know. I don't know.
5 Q. Maybe you didn't understand the question I'm asking. The front
6 line that you worked on was occupied by which unit -- by which army?
7 A. It was the BiH army.
8 Q. You also mentioned that other persons were taken to other places.
9 How did you learn about that?
10 A. Having returned to the detention unit, I heard from other people
11 that they had been taken to other places. We all knew each other, so we
12 talked amongst ourselves and informed each other as to where people were
13 taken.
14 Q. Were you told the places, the names of the places where these
15 other persons were taken?
16 A. They were taken to Gornji Vakuf, some 50 of them, I believe.
17 Some were also taken towards Kupres. I don't know the name of the line
18 there, where they were taken.
19 Q. And were you told what they were taken there to do?
20 A. To dig trenches.
21 Q. Now, were you told if all of them returned alive?
22 A. As far as I can remember, two people were killed and several were
23 wounded.
24 Q. The second time you were taken from the stadium, where were you
25 taken to? Can you recall?
Page 3352
1 A. I was taken to Pajic Polje, and we dug trenches in Duratbegovic
2 Dolac.
3 Q. And how far were these trenches that you dug from the front
4 lines?
5 A. It was also on the front line, just above Duratbegovic Dolac.
6 Q. While you were engaged in this process, were you and any of the
7 other prisoners exposed to any additional risk? That is, risk or danger
8 in addition to digging trenches on the front line.
9 A. Three detainees were killed there and later on, when this was
10 found out, we were all taken to the trenches to stand up straight so as
11 to be well visible.
12 Q. What do you mean when you say "so as to be well visible"?
13 A. On the top of that hill on that line, there were also some
14 trenches, like dugouts --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is a very
16 significant error in translation, page 14, line 8. He said that "three
17 detainees were killed there." I heard the witness saying that from that
18 place three detainees had escaped and then they were punished -- the rest
19 of them were punished by standing up. Since the witness is still here,
20 I've heard his answer, can we have the witness repeat that answer.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It's not the
22 same thing.
23 MR. STAMP:
24 Q. You said three detainees had escaped; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, escaped.
Page 3353
1 Q. Before you were -- okay. You were explaining to us what you
2 meant when you said that you were put to stand up straight so as to be
3 well visible. What did you mean by that?
4 A. In every trench or in every dugout two people were made to climb
5 up on every dugout and we were made to stand there for an hour.
6 Q. So you could be visible to whom?
7 A. To the other side, the other side of the front line.
8 Q. And did you say when you were eventually exchanged? Or just let
9 me ask the question: When were you eventually exchanged?
10 A. 19 March 1994.
11 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I have nothing further to ask you for
12 the time being.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
15 Defence for the cross-examination of this witness --
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have told us that
18 you were made to stand up straight in the trenches. Who made that
19 decision? The people who guarded you, their commander, or maybe you
20 don't know?
21 A. We were in Pajic Polje at the time. Pajic Polje was a base, or
22 maybe it was a forward command post. I don't know exactly what it was.
23 That is some 2 kilometres away from the front line. From there, every
24 day we would go to dig trenches in Dolac, and somebody must have issued
25 that order from that school.
Page 3354
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Page 3355
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were in the stadium,
2 you said that there were some 200 or 300 of you there. How many guards
3 were there who guarded you at the stadium?
4 A. I don't know. They worked in shifts, and there was a different
5 group every day. There may have been between five and ten of them. I
6 don't know.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there were between five and
8 ten, and their task was to guard a number of prisoners; is that right?
9 A. Yes. But we were locked up, and we were behind bars. We
10 couldn't escape. And there was also a fence erected in front of that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in the group in which you
12 knew a number of people, nobody ever planned to escape.
13 A. It was not possible to escape from there. It would have been
14 very difficult. We were behind bars. There was an iron gate which was
15 locked. We were locked up.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
17 Defence, you have the floor again. Please make sure not to ask
18 questions that might identify the witness.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. ZC. My name is Edina Residovic,
22 and I represent General Hadzihasanovic.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session,
24 please, as the first few questions might reveal the witness's identity.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
Page 3356
1 [Private session]
2 (redacted)
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Page 3357
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15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. ZC, is it correct to say that the headquarters of the Eugen
19 Kvaternik Brigade were located in Tito's villa, on the hill called Gorica
20 above the town?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The 1st Battalion was located in the Vojin Paleksic Primary
23 School?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The military police was in the Kalin Hotel in the centre of town;
Page 3358
1 isn't that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The HVO also had checkpoints in the villages in Cucici [phoen],
4 Lova [phoen], Vrbanja, Bristovi and the surrounding areas; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes, together with the BH army.
7 Q. In February 1993, in addition to your brigade, Home Guard units
8 were formed in Bugojno; isn't that correct?
9 A. Yes, but I don't know when.
10 Q. In 1993, there were many factors that had an influence and
11 resulted in an increase in tension between the army and the HVO; that is
12 to say, between the Croatian and Bosniak population in the town. Is that
13 correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Many refugees arrived in the town and in the immediate vicinity
16 of Bugojno, in Gornji Vakuf. There was permanent fighting between the
17 army and the HVO. Is that correct?
18 A. Well, yes.
19 Q. As a member of the military police, you were a member of mixed
20 commissions together with the police from the BH army and you tried to
21 calm the situation down --
22 MR. STAMP: I'd like to object, for the record, to this line of
23 questioning. For the record, this witness has testified in this case
24 about the condition of prison facilities in Bugojno. The questions tend
25 to elicit evidence which is not relevant to the matters in issue in this
Page 3359
1 particular trial.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if my learned
3 colleague has a look at the transcript, he will realise that he also
4 asked the witness whether he was a member of the military police and the
5 witness also said that he worked with the army in order to solve certain
6 difficulties, deal with certain incidents. I don't think that my
7 question wasn't within the scope of the examination-in-chief, but I would
8 like to hear your suggestions.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In the transcript, at one
10 point you asked him a question and you told him that as an HVO policeman
11 he would go on patrol. And in line 3, page 19, he spontaneously said,
12 "Yes, but I did that with the BH army." So the witness himself said
13 that.
14 The Defence's question was whether he was a member of a mixed
15 commission. I think that this question can be put to him. That's really
16 not a problem. We know that he was an HVO policeman, that he went on
17 patrol with the army, and the Defence's question was whether he could
18 confirm that he was a member of a commission. So please carry on.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. ZC, would it be correct to say that as a military policeman
21 you went with members of the BH army military police to deal with
22 incidents that occurred in Bugojno, and you participated with them in
23 these joint commissions? Is that correct?
24 A. On the whole, we went on patrol and manned checkpoints.
25 Q. Mr. ZC, are you aware of the fact that on the 17th of July, 1993,
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Page 3361
1 the conflict that broke out at the checkpoint in Vrbanja spread beyond
2 that area and engulfed the entire town of Bugojno?
3 A. Well, I can't remember exactly the first time this occurred.
4 Perhaps the first incident occurred earlier.
5 Q. These conflicts last from the 18th to the 27th of July, when the
6 HVO headquarters finally surrendered, the HVO headquarters located in
7 Tito's villa in Gorica; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. The 27th or 28th, they withdrew then. I think it was the
9 28th of July. Yes.
10 Q. At the time of the conflict, you reported to the Croatian home,
11 which wasn't far from the headquarters of the military police, in the
12 Hotel Kalin. You reported there for your duties.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your group soon surrendered, around the 19th or 20th of July; is
15 that correct?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's answer wasn't audible.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The members of the army who captured you first took you to the
19 basement in your home. That's where your base was located. And then
20 they took you to the grammar school. Is that correct?
21 A. It was a building which was adjacent to it, perhaps about 15
22 metres from the Croatian home.
23 Q. Mr. ZC, I'm going to go back to a question that I have already
24 asked you, because the interpreters have pointed out that they didn't
25 hear your answer. The question was --
Page 3362
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, try and speak up.
2 When you answer, try to raise your voice a little so that the
3 interpreters can hear you, if that's possible.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I asked you whether it was correct to say that your group
6 surrendered on the 19th or, rather, on the 20th of July. Your answer
7 hasn't been recorded in the transcript, so could you please answer.
8 A. I was captured on the 19th.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 19th. Yes. Witness, you
11 have to be precise nevertheless, because there are two solutions: You
12 were taken prisoner, or you surrendered. You could have surrendered and
13 being a prisoner afterwards, or you were taken prisoner. What is the
14 correct answer? It seems the Defence is saying that you surrendered, and
15 it seems that you are saying that no, you were taken prisoner. So what
16 are you actually telling us?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what you mean
18 when you say "in the course of the fighting." I was captured.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That means that you were asked
20 to surrender. You said there was fighting. You had a weapon. You had
21 to surrender your weapons and raise your hands.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Things are a little clearer
24 now.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 3363
1 Q. In response to a question put to you by my colleague, you said
2 that you were transferred from the grammar school to the furniture salon,
3 and you told us what happened there. Would it be correct to say that the
4 prisoners in the furniture salon were maltreated at night and that was
5 the case for you as well? Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On the whole, you were not able to see or recognise the persons
8 who would take the prisoners out and beat them.
9 A. Well, I couldn't really recognise them, but sometimes they used
10 lighters to shed a bit of light.
11 Q. You said that you could see that they were wearing camouflage
12 uniforms.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is it correct, Mr. ZC, to say that before these conflicts members
15 of the army in Bugojno often wore camouflage uniforms as well as
16 policemen and HVO members but other people who were able to obtain such
17 uniforms also wore them? Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would it be correct to say that you were visited in the furniture
20 salon by some nuns? They brought you some food and some clothes?
21 A. Yes. They would come occasionally, but not frequently.
22 Q. Mr. ZC, would it be correct to say that in fact you didn't know
23 who had ordered the detainees to be placed in the grammar school or,
24 rather, in the furniture salon, nor did you know who the guards'
25 superiors were? Is that correct?
Page 3364
1 A. Well, it was the BH army. Who else would it be? I don't know.
2 Q. But you didn't know who the individual persons were.
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back into private
5 session, again, since the witness mentioned the names of some persons in
6 private session. So I think that it would be appropriate for the Defence
7 to put questions to the witness in private session too.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
9 [Private session]
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Page 3365
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9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. ZC, while you were at the stadium, were you visited by nuns,
13 by Dr. Jadranka, and were families able to take food there for the
14 prisoners?
15 A. They'd bring us food, but it was difficult to get it through.
16 Sometimes they would allow them to provide us with food.
17 Q. Mr. ZC, would it be correct to say that before you left for
18 Podripci you reported to go and perform certain duties outside of the
19 prison?
20 A. Yes, to get out of the darkness and get a bit of air and see a
21 little light.
22 Q. On that occasion, you went to the village of Vrbanja, where you
23 buried inhabitants from the village of Vrbanja who had been killed.
24 A. I know that we dug tombs.
25 Q. You were then maltreated by the Muslim civilian population from
Page 3366
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Page 3367
1 that area; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you returned, after having carried out this work, you spoke
4 about it to a prisoner, who said that the civilians had also severely
5 beaten Mario Zrno and they said that Mario Zrno died as a result of the
6 injuries.
7 A. Yes, I heard about that, but that happened before I went there.
8 Q. You also don't know who decided that the Iskra Stadium should be
9 used as a prison.
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. And similarly, you don't know who decided that the people
12 guarding you should provide security for that prison; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, I don't know.
14 Q. Likewise, you don't know who the superiors of Gasal or, rather,
15 Kukavica were.
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. ZC.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the other Defence team
20 have any questions? Mr. Dixon.
21 MR. DIXON: No, Your Honour, we don't have any questions. As we
22 anticipated, this witness hasn't testified about any charges with which
23 Mr. Kubura is proceeded against in the indictment, so we have no
24 questions. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.
Page 3368
1 Mr. Stamp, is there any re-examination?
2 MR. STAMP: No re-examination. May it please you, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
4 [Interpretation] Witness, this concludes your examination. You
5 have answered the questions put to you by the Defence, by the
6 Prosecution, and by the Chamber. Thank you for having come to The Hague
7 as a witness for the Prosecution. We wish you a good trip home.
8 Before you leave this courtroom, I'm going to ask the usher to
9 lower the blinds.
10 Witness, you can now leave the courtroom.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's almost time to have the
13 break, so it would be best to have the break immediately. We will resume
14 at five past 4.00, and we'll have a new witness who will be testifying at
15 five past 4.00. The hearing is adjourned.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that for the next
19 witness we don't have any particular protective measures, Mr. Withopf.
20 Can you confirm that?
21 The Chamber would like to greet Mrs. Benjamin, who has just
22 joined us.
23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Thank you.
24 MR. WITHOPF: It's correct, Mr. President. The Prosecution will
25 not apply for protective measures in respect to the next witness. There
Page 3369
1 are, however, a number of issues related to this witness my colleague,
2 Mrs. Benjamin, would like to address.
3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this witness
4 is, to put it simply, illiterate and a little bit fragile with respect to
5 her appearance here. I have discussed with my colleagues on the other
6 side with respect to the reading of the oath, how we are going to deal
7 with it, and they have no objections to the oath being read to her.
8 But I wish to ask the Chamber, at the Chamber's discretion, if
9 the Court would allow me on certain occasions perhaps to lead the witness
10 in certain areas, because -- because of her situation.
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24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's go into
25 private session, please.
Page 3377
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22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in public session.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in open session.
25 The Chamber would like to say that an order should be prepared
Page 3380
1 for the transcript to be redacted.
2 Mr. Registrar, please prepare such an order for me to sign.
3 And I am going to ask the usher to place the partitions in order
4 to shield the witness from the public gallery.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
6 Very well, then.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going into private
9 session because there is a procedure to follow.
10 Private session, please, Mr. Registrar.
11 [Private session]
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14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, you may now
17 proceed. But since protective measures are in place, if any of your
18 questions are such that they might reveal the witness's identity you
19 should request that we go into private session in such cases. You may
20 proceed.
21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged, Mr. President, Your Honours.
22 Q. Witness ZD, could you tell the Judges if there came a time when
23 village guards were formed in the village of Cukle.
24 A. Yes, there were village guards. Everyone protected his own
25 house. There was a lack of trust among the people. No one trusted
Page 3383
1 anyone anymore. So some of them protect their houses; others their own
2 houses, although there were no disputes. That's what happened. Well,
3 they sort of guarded their houses and so forth.
4 Q. And to whom were these guards made against? Who were you
5 guarding your homes against?
6 A. Well, people were afraid. They were afraid of the Mujahedin,
7 foreign troops. Since we had a neighbour who was some way away from our
8 village, they had their headquarters in Mehurici and he started to bring
9 them to his house down there. Our people found out about it, and then my
10 husband went to his neighbour's, his Muslim neighbour's, and he said,
11 "What's going on? Why should we be afraid of each other?" And then
12 panic started spreading among the villagers. No one trusted anyone any
13 more.
14 Q. Thank you. Did there come a time when the guards separated, when
15 the Croats went in their own direction and the Muslims went in their own
16 direction?
17 A. Yes, they did separate. They were together for a while, as they
18 were afraid of the Serbs who were attacking everyone. And then as the
19 Mujahedin were in Mehurici, they'd cry out to the men in our defence, the
20 Territorial Defence, et cetera - I don't know what they were called -
21 they'd cry out and say they were going to Mehurici together there. Our
22 people didn't want to accept this. The Mujahedin were living there. It
23 was a foreign army, foreign troops. They had come from these Arab
24 countries, and that's how the people started separating from each other.
25 No one trusted anyone any more.
Page 3384
1 Q. Thank you, Witness.
2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think we may need to go into
3 private session, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's go into
5 private session.
6 [Private session]
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11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're in open session now.
13 I would like to point out something with regard to witnesses who
14 have already testified. When questions are asked, we have found out on a
15 number of occasions that witnesses have already testified before
16 international courts or at The Hague but we haven't been informed of this
17 by the Prosecution. And on two occasions this caused procedural
18 problems.
19 It would be desirable when the Prosecution meets the witnesses in
20 the pre-trial stage they should check to see whether the witness has
21 already been in The Hague or testified in a national court. Why?
22 Because if a witness was heard in 1998 and then appears subsequently in
23 the year 2000 or 2001, in the written statement naturally this won't be
24 indicated. And if the Trial Chamber doesn't ask the witness about this
25 or the witness doesn't mention it, then we won't know about it. So when
Page 3414
1 the witness is met, one has to assess the situation, the legal situation,
2 in order to be aware of all the relevant facts. Because if the witness
3 has already been examined and has made a solemn declaration and has
4 benefitted -- and has had protective measures, the Trial Chamber needs to
5 be aware of the fact.
6 So I know your task is complicated, because very often you see
7 the witnesses at the very last minute, but you have to ask the witnesses
8 about the situation because these are things that happened a long time
9 ago. The investigations were conducted a long time ago. Many things may
10 have happened. There may be a lot of new factors that appear. For
11 example, that was the case when I asked the witness a minute ago where
12 the witness was living. This was quite new information. So you must be
13 aware of this information. You must find out about it when you see the
14 witnesses. So you have to say when a witness appeared, "Witness X is
15 appearing. This witness testified or hasn't already testified." This is
16 in order to save time and to avoid discovering problems in the course of
17 the proceedings. And naturally, when it is the Defence's turn, when the
18 Defence will be calling witnesses, they will proceed in the same manner,
19 to avoid such problems so that we don't realise that witnesses are called
20 who have already testified in other proceedings.
21 So I think that these elementary things that could enable us to
22 save time and avoid problems. When problems arise, we will deal with
23 them, naturally. But it would be best if we could anticipate problems.
24 And this could involve asking witnesses questions about what had happened
25 since you last spoke to them. You should ask the witness if there is any
Page 3415
1 new information, et cetera. So this is what the Trial Chamber desires,
2 and this would enable us to deal with these witnesses more efficiently in
3 the future.
4 As we have noted on several occasions, for some it's the first
5 time they've been abroad and they have testified. Sometimes they are
6 under stress. And this can be dealt with if we place the witness in a
7 certain context, for example, if the witness has already testified. I
8 think you're fully aware of this problem that in future we will no longer
9 have to deal with these matters.
10 There is perhaps a solution that we could find, but this is up to
11 the parties. You could have a list of the witnesses who have testified
12 in similar proceedings, for example, the one that we mentioned. And this
13 would enable you to verify that your witness is not included in that
14 list, and the Defence could proceed in the same manner. They could also
15 check by consulting lists, and this would enable them to have access to
16 the examination and to prepare their cross-examination.
17 As you know, the Trial Chamber can't carry out this task because
18 the proceedings involve the parties. The Trial Chamber doesn't guide the
19 proceedings, as you are well aware. Such is the procedure. Otherwise,
20 we would have dealt with this matter.
21 We have another 25 minutes. Is there anything you would like to
22 say?
23 Mr. Bourgon, you wanted to talk to us about Rule 75 and inform
24 the Trial Chamber about certain issues that have to do with protective
25 measures. I don't know whether you would like to address this issue at
Page 3416
1 the moment or not.
2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Before I
3 speak about Rule 75 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, I would like
4 to say something about protective measures.
5 Yesterday, when protective measures were requested for one
6 witness, we informed the Trial Chamber that for the future cases we have
7 to listen to somebody from the Victims and Witnesses Unit in order to
8 receive some specific information about Bugojno, for example.
9 Also, we've mentioned on several occasions that there is a need
10 for either the Prosecution or Defence to provide objective information in
11 order for us to be able to prepare in advance when it comes to the
12 application for protective measures. In that sense, Mr. President, we
13 have been informed earlier today by the Prosecution about the witnesses
14 which are due to arrive within the course of the next two weeks, from the
15 1st to the 12th of March. On that list, some of the witnesses have
16 already informed the Prosecution that they intend to apply for protective
17 measures. We believe, Mr. President, that by all means the Prosecution
18 has to inform us in advance about the reasons which underlie the request
19 for protective measures, if possible in writing but not necessarily so.
20 But in any case, we have to be informed in advance about the reasons for
21 which protective measures are requested. This will enable us to prepare
22 ourselves and see whether we are going to object to the request or not.
23 And if a case may be, we will be able to prepare ourselves having at our
24 disposal all the objective information. And we keep on saying that the
25 objective information is necessary. Also, we can listen to the witness
Page 3417
1 explain his reasons for requesting protective measures.
2 In order to corroborate my words, I would also like to draw the
3 attention of the Trial Chamber to some facts. The witness that we have
4 heard today and that has been granted protective measures - and one of
5 the reasons put forward by the Prosecution was that the witness was going
6 to mention a number of the names of important persons from the region -
7 the only person that the witness mentioned was the name of one person
8 which is well known in the region, but in addition to that name nobody
9 else was mentioned. So what we are asking for is at the moment we
10 receive information and -- to the Chamber, for the Chamber to reach their
11 decision, this information has to be verified in advance. It has to be
12 checked in order to enable the Chamber to pass a clear decision with
13 regard to the protective measures.
14 And at the end, Mr. President, as far as the testimony under
15 protective measures is concerned, my colleagues from Mr. Kubura's Defence
16 team have mentioned on several occasions that it sometimes happens that
17 witnesses are granted protective measures but, despite the protective
18 measures that have been granted - or because of the protective measures,
19 most of the testimonies take place behind a closed door. Today again the
20 testimony that we've heard today has been because -- in closed session.
21 We have to mention that - and you've already said that, Mr. President -
22 The sides have to do their utmost in order to work in closed session only
23 when it is necessary. In that way, we will avoid or we wish to avoid
24 interruptions during a witness's testimony and keep on saying that maybe
25 we could work in open session. The public nature of the -- of these
Page 3418
1 trials is very important, as
2 far as the Defence is concerned.
3 I'm going to end with Rule 75, Mr. President. We don't know
4 whether your interpretation of this Rule 75 is, as a matter of fact, your
5 decision. At the same time, we have been informed by our colleagues who
6 work on other cases - I don't have the information at my disposal today -
7 however, we've heard from our colleagues that some other Chambers
8 interpreted Rule 75 differently.
9 The fact is that when it comes to the continuity of the
10 application of protective measures, these measures are applied to the
11 information provided by the witness rather than to the person of the
12 witness. I cannot go into any further details; however, I can tell you
13 that we have on several occasions requested access to information in some
14 other cases - for example, the Blaskic, the Kordic, and the Kupreskic
15 case - and we have applied Rule 75. This Rule has been altered on
16 several occasions in order to facilitate applications for such requests.
17 This has led to some very complicated discussions in order to allow the
18 Defence of General Hadzihasanovic to access information in the Blaskic
19 case - and the two cases overlap in several segments.
20 Rule 75 starts from one case to another, and the Rule speaks
21 about the request to access the following information in the following
22 way: When one team wants to access information in another case, and when
23 this is granted, then protective measures are still in place. Likewise,
24 when in our case, for example, the Prosecution informs us pursuant to
25 Rule 66(A)(ii) and when they disclose evidence to us and when they
Page 3419
1 disclose evidence from some other case in which the witness testified
2 under protective measures, the Prosecution may tell us, "We are giving
3 you this information because it is our obligation; however, bear in mind
4 that this witness or these witnesses testified under protective
5 measures." So information still remains confidential.
6 In the Ljubicic case, which is the case that is -- that is still
7 not in trial but in its pre-trial stage, we have been given access to
8 information in this case. In that particular case, the Chamber has made
9 a ruling in order to be sure that protective measures will apply to a
10 request from the Defence team in this case - that is, the Kubura and
11 Hadzihasanovic Defence teams - to sign and hand over to the Trial Chamber
12 a report on the names of the Defence team so as to bind all the persons
13 in those two Defence teams by the continuity of protective measures. I'm
14 not saying that your interpretation of this Rule is erroneous. I'm just
15 wondering whether your interpretation today is a decision or maybe at
16 some point in time we may still present arguments once we check the
17 situation in other cases, the cases that our colleagues have informed us
18 about. They have told us that some witnesses that have been granted
19 protective measures in the past may be granted protective measures at a
20 later stage and vice versa.
21 Mr. President, what I'm saying is that this is more of a
22 question, a question that concerns Rule 75. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your submission, you have
24 presented us with a number of issues, and the last concerns the
25 application of Rule 75 over the course of time.
Page 3420
1 If we read paragraphs (F) and (G) of Rule 75, this doesn't leave
2 any doubts why. When protective measures are once granted, this is for
3 the reasons that have to do with the safety of a witness or a victim and
4 the fact that a witness may be afraid if -- for his safety if his
5 testimony becomes public or for some other reasons.
6 If this situation is taken into account by one Chamber, this
7 happens at a time T-zero, for example in 1998, for this particular
8 witness that we have just heard. And if we read Rule 75 very closely,
9 this protection is valid at a certain period of time. And Rule 75
10 regulates that issue.
11 If in the meantime there's some new elements, some new
12 information, this -- the granted measures may be rescinded, may be
13 augmented, or may be altered because the danger has increased or
14 decreased. We have to go one step further. So the situation may be
15 completely different in the meantime.
16 What -- who is in charge of making this decision? Certainly not
17 the second Trial Chamber, but the Trial Chamber which sits in the first
18 case. And that is the situation. This Trial Chamber will certainly take
19 into account what you have just told us, and we will look into the
20 possibility of rendering a different decision bearing in mind the
21 position that you have presented.
22 In addition to that, in this particular case, witnesses may also
23 say whether they wish for the protective measures to continue. We have
24 seen that in one or two cases, as the situation may be different in a
25 different case. For example, in a different case we still have to have
Page 3421
1 the witness's approval, and this has to be clear.
2 These are all very important issues. They have to be looked at
3 very carefully. We have to see -- look at the jurisprudence from other
4 cases. The Prosecution also has to inform us about their position with
5 regard to this issue.
6 The issue at hand is the interpretation of Rule 75. However, in
7 this stage, when we are considering the objections that you have
8 presented, we have -- mustn't forget that there's a hypothetical
9 situation in which protective measures have been granted for a reason.
10 For whatever reason, that the measures may be altered. However, the fear
11 that was expressed when the protective measures were asked in the first
12 place is confirmed. We are going to look at this very carefully, and we
13 will hand down our decision on this issue.
14 You have also mentioned another thing; however, the Chamber has
15 already provided you with an answer on several occasions. The issue is
16 that you want the Prosecution to provide you with a list of the persons
17 for whom they will apply for protective measures. The Prosecution has
18 answered that sometimes they only meet the witness on the day of their
19 testimony or a day in advance, and in that case they really do not have
20 the time to inform you about the protective measures that they will be
21 applying for. It would be ideal for them to provide you with a written
22 request with all the information in written form, and based on that
23 written information we could make our decision. We have to bear in mind
24 that some witnesses live very far, contact with them is made at the last
25 moment. Then we have to resort to the oral procedure.
Page 3422
1 We have tried to improve the situation by asking the witness to
2 explain his situation when the witness arrives. On several occasions,
3 you have also raised the issue of the local context, and your suggestion
4 is that somebody from the Victims and Witness Unit should be heard here
5 as a witness. This could be done from the procedural point of view
6 speaking if the Prosecution tells us that they will ask for protective
7 measures to be granted for a certain witness, here are the reasons; but
8 the reasons will be corroborated by a certain staff member of this
9 particular unit to come and testify before this Trial Chamber. This is
10 how this procedure can be started.
11 The Prosecution can ask a staff member of this unit to testify.
12 They have to turn to their supervisor to allow them to do that. However,
13 it is necessary for the person who is sent to testify to be competent and
14 to be familiar with the situation, because if that person only tells us
15 what they heard or what they read in the press, this is not enough. The
16 Prosecution, I'm sure, will think about this question, which is very
17 important.
18 Mr. Withopf, do you have anything to say at this point in time?
19 MR. WITHOPF: May I just briefly address the issues have both
20 been dealt with by both my learned colleague and by the Presiding Judge.
21 In respect to Rule 75(F) and (G), the Prosecution shares the view
22 of the Trial Chamber, as expressed some days ago, and the Prosecution
23 strives to always inform the Trial Chamber in due course whether
24 witnesses have testified earlier on and whether protective measures have
25 been granted.
Page 3423
1 Unfortunately, in the today's case, we had this unfortunate
2 situation that the witness herself was not in a position to inform us,
3 although asked, that protective measures were granted in the other case.
4 As you know, Your Honours, the Prosecution always informs Defence
5 counsel, at least at the stage when the Prosecution files confidentially
6 its witness schedule, about the names of the witnesses who intend to ask
7 the Prosecution to apply for protective measures. The reasons of such --
8 The reasons of the witnesses vary and they vary substantially. Some of
9 the reasons we can only figure out and we can only elaborate on once the
10 witness arrives here in The Hague and once the lawyers of the trial team
11 were in a position to talk to the witness. And as Your Honours, and as
12 Your Honour Mr. President already pointed out, we are in a situation that
13 quite often we meet the witnesses only the day prior to the testimony.
14 In respect to the request of the Defence to ask somebody from the
15 Witness and Victims Section to provide information on the situation in
16 certain areas, for example, in Bugojno, I don't think that the members of
17 the Victims and Witness Section actually do have the knowledge to provide
18 such information. The issues the Victims and Witness Section are dealing
19 with are a bit different from assessing the threats our witnesses -- or
20 the Prosecution witnesses may be exposed to in certain areas.
21 Again, the Prosecution is continuing to, at the earliest
22 opportunity, to inform both the Defence counsel and the Trial Chamber
23 about the names of protective witnesses -- or of witnesses who wish to
24 have protective measures.
25 In respect to the witnesses for tomorrow - and for that purpose,
Page 3424
1 may I please ask to go into private session, since I want to provide some
2 additional information?
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.
25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
Page 3425
1 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.
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