1 Thursday, 26 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 And could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, and
13 Kimberly Fleming, the case manager.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
15 And the appearances for the Defence, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good
17 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina
18 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis Demirdjian,
19 our legal assistant. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 And the appearances for the other Defence team, please.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
24 Mr. Mulalic, our legal assistant.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber
1 would like to greet everyone in the courtroom, the representatives of the
2 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in the
4 I'm going to ask Mr. Registrar to go into private session.
5 [Private session]
12 Page 3524 – redacted – private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing will
21 We were informed yesterday evening that there are three witnesses
22 scheduled for today. Could the Prosecution inform us of the order in
23 which the witnesses will be appearing.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, that's correct, there are three
25 witnesses available today.
1 In respect to the order, can we please go into private session?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Withopf. We
3 will go back into private session.
4 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not quite. I can't see the
2 symbol on my screen -- oh, there is it is. We are in open session.
3 You want to tender two cassettes into evidence. As far as I can
4 remember, that is a witness who was granted protective measures, so we
5 have to go back into private session.
6 MR. WITHOPF: No. No, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't the case.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. Zivko Totic didn't request any protective
9 measures. He testified in public session.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So please produce
11 the two cassettes.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, it was the video footage shown to
13 the witness Zivko Totic. We were able to isolate it. It has been burned
14 on one CD. Both portions are on the one CD, and the nine copies can be
15 made available to the parties. The last time Defence insisted --
16 insisted repeatedly -- that the Prosecution should play the video footage
17 again. We are well prepared to do the same exercise today again. It's
18 only five minutes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I am turning to the
20 Defence. The Prosecution, in accordance with your request, would like to
21 have these sequences shown, because on these cassettes we have in fact
22 two videos. Mr. Bourgon, there are no objections to having these two
23 sequences viewed?
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] No objections. Thank you,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth
2 please take the necessary steps to show the sequences. In theory, we
3 should see these two videos on our screens.
4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --
5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence doesn't
6 object to having this admitted into evidence immediately, without viewing
7 them again. This is just to save time, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to thank
9 the Defence for trying to save time. Mr. Registrar, could we have a
10 number for this cassette that in fact consists of two sequences.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P69 and
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the number will
14 be P69 and P70. Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We'll now commence the
15 hearing of the witness, Mr. Dragan Radic. Could the usher go and call
16 the witness into the courtroom.
17 Could the usher go and call the witness into the courtroom. [The
18 witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dragan Radic.
20 Are you receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you have been called here as
23 a witness, given that you have to make a solemn declaration, could you
24 tell me what your first and last name is.
25 A. My name is Dragan Radic. I'm from Guca Gora, near Travnik.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth and
2 what is your place of birth?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 5th of November, 1963, in Guca
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession at
6 the moment?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a technician.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, over ten years ago,
9 what was your profession at the time?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was also a medical technician at
11 the time.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already
13 testified before court, either before a national court or international
14 court, or is this the first time?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As you will be
17 testifying before a court, you have to make a solemn declaration. Could
18 you please read the text that the usher will show you in your own
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
23 WITNESS: DRAGAN RADIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll provide you with some
1 explanations as to the procedure that will be followed here.
2 You will have to answer the questions put to you by the
3 representatives of the Prosecution, who are to your right. One of the
4 two persons who are to your right will be examining you on the basis of
5 the documents that concern the witnesses. An hour and a half has been
6 allocated for your examination.
7 After the Prosecution has concluded its examination-in-chief, the
8 representatives of the Defence will conduct their cross-examination and
9 will be putting questions to you in order to verify that you are a
10 credible witness. And in addition, they will be asking you questions
11 that are relevant for the defence of the accused.
12 The Judges, who are sitting before you, may at any point in time,
13 if they consider it necessary, ask you questions in order to clarify
14 issues that you may have addressed when answering the questions put to
15 you by the Prosecution. This depends on how you answer the questions put
16 to you.
17 To the extent that this is possible, try to answer the questions
18 fully and precisely, because your oral testimony will serve to establish
19 the truth for the Judges who are before you. And your oral testimony,
20 which will be supported by documents that the Prosecution will be
21 tendering into evidence, will be the base on which we will attempt to
22 establish the probative value of your testimony.
23 As you have made a solemn declaration, it is your duty to tell
24 the truth. If you give false testimony, a witness could be punished and
25 the penalties could be either a seven-year prison sentence or a fine.
1 But as you have made the solemn declaration, this is a possibility that
2 we exclude.
3 In addition, when answering the questions put to you, you might
4 feel that some of the information you have to provide could be used
5 against you at a subsequent date. In such a case, you can say that you
6 don't want to answer the question. If the Trial Chamber forces you to
7 answer the question, at that point the Trial Chamber would inform you
8 that given the Rules of Procedure and Evidence the information you
9 provide can't be used against you.
10 If you feel that there are any difficulties, please inform us of
11 the difficulties, and we will address the issue.
12 Have you understood what I have said?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for having listened
15 to us. I'll now turn to the Prosecution. I think it is Mr. Withopf who
16 will be conducting the examination-in-chief.
17 MR. WITHOPF: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,
18 Mr. President. Indeed, it's me.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
20 MR. WITHOPF: My apologies.
21 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
22 Q. Mr. Radic, good afternoon.
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Radic, you just informed the Trial Chamber that you were born
25 in Guca Gora. Could you please also tell the Trial Chamber where you
1 grew up.
2 A. I grew up in Guca Gora.
3 Q. And where did you live in 1992 and early 1993?
4 A. In Guca Gora.
5 Q. Mr. Radic, have you ever been a member of the Yugoslav People's
6 Army, the JNA?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber when you joined the JNA
9 and when you left the JNA.
10 A. I went to the JNA in 1985, and I served until 1986.
11 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Radic, when you joined the HVO?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you please tell the Trial Chamber when you joined the
15 A. On the 8th of April, 1992, I became a member of the HVO, and I
16 took a solemn declaration.
17 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Mr. Radic, which unit,
18 which military unit of the HVO you joined in April 1992.
19 A. It was the Travnik Brigade.
20 Q. Once you joined the HVO, the Travnik Brigade, what were your
21 duties within the HVO?
22 A. I was in charge of setting up a medical corps in the area of Guca
24 Q. What was the name of the HVO unit in the area of Guca Gora?
25 A. In the area of Guca Gora, a battalion was set up which belonged
1 to the Travnik Brigade up to the 1st of April, 1993, and that was when
2 the Frankopan Brigade was established.
3 Q. Did the Frankopan Brigade have a command post in Guca Gora?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber from when and until
7 A. It was established on the 1st of April, 1993, and it existed up
8 to the end of May 1994.
9 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber where exactly this
10 command post was established in Guca Gora.
11 A. The command post of the Frankopan Brigade was in the old house
12 which was part of the monastery in Guca Gora.
13 Q. How far away, to your knowledge, was this old house which you
14 described being part of the monastery in Guca Gora?
15 A. You mean from the monastery?
16 Q. Right.
17 A. It was part of the monastery, but we used to call it "the old
18 house" because it was in a rather dilapidated state.
19 Q. How would you describe, Mr. Radic, the relationship between the
20 Muslim and the Croat population in the area of Guca Gora in early 1993?
21 A. It was peaceful, up to the arrival of refugees from Krajina,
22 Jajce, Karaula. There were no tensions before that, up to the moment of
23 their arrival.
24 Q. And what did happen, Mr. Radic, at the moment of their arrival?
25 A. When people from Krajina arrived in the area of the villages
1 around Guca Gora -- Mosor, Krpeljici, Radojcici, Maljine -- the structure
2 of the population changed, the make-up of the population changed. All of
3 a sudden they started putting barricades on the roads, they started
4 establishing checkpoints. People were stopped and searched at the
5 checkpoints. I'm talking about the local population that had used to
6 move around without any problems before that. There were minor
8 Q. What was the ethnic background, Mr. Radic, of the people who came
9 from the areas of Krajina, Jajce, and Karaula?
10 A. Muslims.
11 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Radic, when a real conflict broke out
12 between the Muslims and the Croats in the area of Guca Gora?
13 A. You're asking me about the period when that happened?
14 Q. Right. Did there come a time when an actual war broke out
15 between the HVO and the ABiH?
16 A. At the moment when they arrived, there was already something in
17 the air. There were tensions in the air. There was fear among the local
18 Muslim and local Croat population. There was the feeling of distrust
19 amongst both. Nobody even thought about any conflicts. There was
20 nothing being said about any possible conflicts that might happen.
21 Q. Did there come a time when Guca Gora was attacked?
22 A. Yes. Towards the end of April, there was shooting by Muslims
23 from Radojcici. We didn't know in Guca Gora what was going on. We only
24 heard shots from Radojcici. They were shooting from Radojcici towards
25 us. And also, towards the end of April there was shooting from Donje
1 Maljine, also by Muslims.
2 Q. And did there come a second time, Mr. Radic, when Guca Gora was
4 A. Guca Gora was attacked on the 8th of June.
5 Q. Was it the 8th of June, 1993?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber which army attacked Guca
8 Gora on the 8th of June, 1993.
9 A. 306th Mountain Brigade and the 7th Muslim. And according to our
10 information, those were units of the 3rd Corps at the time.
11 Q. The 3rd Corps of which army?
12 A. Of the Bosniak army.
13 Q. The ABiH?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how you got to know
16 that it was the 306th Mountain Brigade and the 7th Muslim Brigade which
17 were involved in the attack on Guca Gora on 8 June, 1993.
18 A. We learned that from the local Muslims, who had told us that the
19 7th Muslim was being formed in Zenica and that members of the 7th Muslim
20 were predominantly Mujahedins. A lot of people, a lot of foreigners
21 passed through our village; that is, Mujahedins passed through our
22 village. And we learned, when Guca Gora fell, from our civilians who
23 were captured and taken to Maljine and Mehurici -- a few days later they
24 were exchanged and we received information from them that it was that
25 unit that was involved in the attack.
1 And also, on the radio station of Travnik Nadja Ridzic praised
2 the successes of the BH army, the 7th Muslim, and the 306th Mountain
3 Brigade. She said that the extremists from the ranks of the HVO had been
4 chased away from Guca Gora and the neighbouring villages. And she also
5 said that this area should have surrendered to the BH army. This is what
6 we heard on Radio Travnik when they were expelled to Nova Bila.
7 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber who this person, Nadja
8 Ridzic is.
9 A. She is a journalist. She's affiliated with Radio Travnik and
10 also with Television Travnik. At that time, she used to call us Croats
11 extremists and Ustasha. She would use those words on her radio station.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you explained how you got to know about the 7th
13 Muslim Brigade. Can you please also explain to the Trial Chamber what
14 prompted you to know that it was the 306th Mountain Brigade which was
15 involved in the attack on -- at Guca Gora on the 8th of June, 1993.
16 A. The 306th --
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 14:24, the
18 Prosecution has repeated the same question and the witness has already
19 answered that question. So I don't see the reason for putting the same
20 question to the witness again.
21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm happy to rephrase the question.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please; rephrase.
23 MR. WITHOPF:
24 Q. Mr. Radic, in addition to the reasons you just explained to the
25 Trial Chamber as to how you got to know that the 7th Muslim Brigade and
1 the 306th Mountain Brigade were involved in the attack at Guca Gora, was
2 there anything in particular, in addition, which prompted you to get to
3 know that the 306th Mountain Brigade was involved in that attack?
4 A. The 306th Mountain Brigade was stationed in Rudnik. I went there
5 on several occasions. I went to the command, and I also went there when
6 I was passing through the village of Karlovcic when I was taking the
7 wounded and the sick towards the Nova Bila hospital. And before the
8 conflict, I also learned from the local Muslims that this 7th Muslim
9 Brigade had been established in Zenica, that its members were
10 predominantly foreign citizens, Mujahedins.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, what were your duties during the attack on the 8th of
12 June, 1993?
13 A. I was the commander of the medical unit of the Frankopan Brigade.
14 My duty was to set up this medical unit in the area of Guca Gora and the
15 neighbouring villages. I was also in charge of setting up field
16 hospitals to provide them with drugs, stretchers, and other equipment.
17 And also, if I had a vehicle at my disposal, I was in charge of
18 transforming it for the purposes of serving the medical unit.
19 Q. In the course of the attack, was there any communication between
20 the HVO and the ABiH for the purpose to exchange the wounded soldiers?
21 A. Yes. There were personal contacts. We would get in touch over
22 the telephone with the command of the 306th Mountain Brigade in Rudnik
23 and in Bila. And over the telephone we would agree. And then I could
24 pass towards Brajkovici, Cukle with the ambulance in order to pull out
25 the wounded and the sick from those villages.
1 Whenever I arrived in any of these villages, I had to pass by the
2 headquarters of the brigade, and then both I and the vehicle would be
3 searched. Then I would be allowed to proceed towards Grahovcici,
4 Brajkovici. It depended on where I was headed, in order to pull out the
6 Dr. Suad Trkic participated in those negotiations. He was
7 deployed in Rudnik on behalf of the BH army. On several occasions, I
8 spoke to him and we said to each other that we were both medical
9 personnel and that we had to do our job. And when it comes to the
10 wounded and the injured, it sufficed for me to call him and I would be
11 given a free passage; and vice versa, the same arrangement would be
12 provided for them.
13 Q. The command of the 306th Mountain Brigade, who actually was the
14 commander of the 306th Mountain Brigade at the time?
15 A. I know that his family name was Sipic.
16 Q. The headquarters of the 306th Mountain Brigade in Rudnik and
17 Bila, how far away is Rudnik from Guca Gora?
18 A. 4 or 4 and a half kilometres.
19 Q. As a result of the attack of the ABiH 3rd Corps 306th Mountain
20 Brigade and the 7th Muslim Brigade, Mr. Radic, what happened to the
21 command post of the Jure Frankopan Brigade, close to the monastery you
22 were talking about earlier on today?
23 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question, sir.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has also not
1 understood the question.
2 The Defence, you have the floor.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am not raising the question of
4 whether the witness has understood the question. I would only like to
5 draw your attention that the witness has never told us that the command
6 post of the Jure Francetic Brigade [sic] was in the vicinity of the
7 monastery. He said that it was in the old house which was an integral
8 part of the monastery.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecution
10 should rephrase the question and be more precise, because the question
11 was rather ambiguous, Mr. Withopf. And the witness has never said that
12 the command post of the Frankopan Brigade was in the vicinity of the
13 monastery. So you may wish to clarify that as well.
14 MR. WITHOPF:
15 Q. Mr. Radic, as a result of the ABiH attack on 8th June 1993, what
16 happened to the command post of the HVO in Guca Gora?
17 A. On the 8th of June, the command post of the Frankopan Brigade was
18 not in Guca Gora. Towards the end of May, it was relocated to Nova Bila.
19 So on the 8th of June, there was just a communications man in the old
20 house where the command post used to be, and there was also an operations
21 man, a local of Guca Gora who used to live there. So on the 8th of June,
22 the command post of this brigade was no longer in the old house.
23 Q. Mr. Radic, just for clarification, earlier on today you said that
24 from the 1st of April, 1993, to the 30th of May, 1994, there was the
25 command post of the Jure Francetic -- of the Frankopan Brigade in Guca
1 Gora. Was it just a mistake on your side?
2 A. From the 1st of April until the end of May 1993, not 1994. It
3 was up to the end of May 1993.
4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic, for this clarification.
5 Does this mean that on the 8th of June, 1993, there was no
6 command post of the Frankopan Brigade in Guca Gora?
7 A. That is correct. Towards the end of May, between the 25th and
8 the 26th of May, 1993, the command post was moved to Nova Bila.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Can you please very briefly describe for
10 the Trial Chamber the cause of the attack at Guca Gora.
11 A. As far as I know, the BH army sent most of its troops from Turbe
12 via Guca Gora, so all the members moving from Zevica [phoen] towards
13 Turbe, to the front line facing the Serbs, had to pass via Guca Gora.
14 And I suppose that they were bothered by being constantly controlled by
15 the locals who carried arms in their own villages and were afraid of this
16 constant passage of the large number of troops through Guca Gora. And I
17 suppose that this was one of the major reasons why Guca Gora and the
18 neighbouring villages were attacked. They wanted to improve their
19 communication between Travnik and Zenica. They wanted to get a free
20 passage through there.
21 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether the ABiH was
22 successful in attacking Guca Gora.
23 A. Yes, it was successful for them. Yes.
24 Q. What did it mean for you on the 8th of June, 1993? Where did you
25 go to?
1 A. This meant that I was expelled from my place of birth, from my
2 house. We had to leave all of our possessions behind. We had to seek
3 refuge. We withdrew towards Nova Bila. At first we thought we would go
4 as far as Sarici. This is a village 2 kilometres away from Guca Gora.
5 However, we were not left in peace there. We were expelled from there
6 towards Cifluk and Nova Bila.
7 Q. Mr. Radic, did you stay in the village of Cifluk?
8 A. Cifluk, yes.
9 Q. And for how long did you stay in the village of Cifluk?
10 A. From the 8th of June, until when I was wounded, on the 24th of
11 December, 1993, when I was transferred to the hospital in Nova Bila. And
12 on the 12th of January, 1994, I was taken to Split for medical treatment.
13 I was taken there by helicopter.
14 Q. When on the 8th of June, 1993 did you arrive in Cifluk?
15 A. We arrived at about 10.00 or half past 10.00 in the morning.
16 Q. How far away is the village of Cifluk from Guca Gora?
17 A. Between 3 and 3 and a half kilometres.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,
19 I'm now going to show the witness Radic a map using the Sanction
20 technology but also using the hard copies, which are available for
22 This map, for the information of both Defence counsel and the
23 Trial Chamber, is a part, is a portion of the bigger map which was
24 admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit P1 at the very beginning of
25 this trial.
1 Can the witness please be given one copy.
2 Q. Mr. Radic, can you identify on the map in front of you the
3 villages of Guca Gora and the villages of Cifluk.
4 A. Yes. Guca Gora --
5 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness be -- can the witness please be
6 provided with a fine-liner.
7 A. Should I encircle it or ...?
8 Q. Exactly, Mr. Radic. Can you please encircle the village of Guca
9 Gora and the village of Cifluk.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And can you please write next to Guca Gora "1" and next to Cifluk
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Can you please date and sign this map.
15 Today is the 26th of February.
16 A. [Witness complies]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher will show the map to
18 the Prosecution, to the Defence, and to the accused.
19 Could we have an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P72.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. WITHOPF:
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.
24 Once you arrived in Cifluk on the 8th of June, 1993 and onwards,
25 did you monitor what was going on in Guca Gora?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, every day; with the naked eye and by using binoculars too.
2 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you have seen
3 going on in Guca Gora.
4 A. On the 8th of June?
5 Q. From 8th of June, 1993 onwards, please.
6 A. On the 8th of June, when we arrived in Cifluk, part of the
7 villagers withdrew with the troops, with people who were under arms, and
8 with civilians, who were in their shelter. The other inhabitants of the
9 village of Glavice remained at their positions because they didn't know
10 that the other part of the village had withdrawn, as we had no contact
11 with them.
12 Upon arriving in Cifluk, we found out that there was more
13 shooting. We heard this from Glavice and Krpeljici. And we realised
14 that part of the village had remained in Guca Gora. They were at the
15 entrance to Guca Gora, at the crossroads to Krpeljici and Guca Gora.
16 Upon arriving in Cifluk, HVO members who were armed remained there and
17 started digging in to prepare for defence in that area. We would take
18 the civilians on foot to Nova Bila, because it was safer there.
19 On that day, they kept shooting from the direction of Kljaci, Han
20 Bila, Zolot [phoen], Hali Hodza [phoen]. They opened fire at the people
21 there incessantly. From Sarici towards Cifluk. From Guca Gora to
22 Sarici, the passage from Guca Gora to Sarici, on that way we had a
23 blockade by the road. And above the road, 20 metres above the road, BH
24 army trenches had been dug. This was a clear area. In order to take the
25 civilians out, we had to attack those trenches and drive away the BH army
1 troops from those trenches.
2 There were local people from the village of Radojcici. When we
3 managed to drive them away, we took the people to Sarici. In Sarici,
4 which is a small village, everything was in an open space, fire was
5 opened from all directions and they fired at the people and the troops.
6 When we managed to get the people out of Sarici, we took them to Cifluk.
7 As I have already said, the troops remained there. They dug in, because
8 of -- the command of the Frankopan Brigade went there and stopped the
9 army. They said we didn't have anywhere further to go. We had to return
10 there. People understood this and assigned us the task of digging in.
11 We would make dugouts. We felled timber.
12 Q. Mr. Radic, may I please stop you here. On the 12th of June,
13 1993, did you watch what was going on in Guca Gora?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you have seen.
16 A. On the 12th of June, through the binoculars I saw houses burning
17 in Guca Gora and stables as well. You could see this with the naked eye
19 Q. What else have you seen happening in Guca Gora, other than
20 burning houses?
21 A. I saw looting through the binoculars. I saw looting in the
22 village. I saw how carts and tractors from the direction of Krpeljici
23 and Maljine entered Guca Gora, descended towards our houses, loaded --
24 loaded things, and went towards Krpeljici or Maljine. There probably
25 wasn't enough fuel at the time, so the tractors and the trailers would be
1 parked before our convent in Guca Gora, at the Parace area and the Klisa
2 area. And through binoculars, we were able to see how they were taking
3 things out to Parace and Klisa, because it wasn't very far. You could
4 see this very clearly through binoculars. We saw people in uniforms. We
5 saw women wearing baggy Muslim trousers. We could more or less recognise
6 whether a person was a woman or a man by looking at them through the
8 So they loaded these things on, and then the tractor or trailer
9 would go towards Maljine or towards Krpeljici.
10 Also, there is a residential building in Guca Gora. We saw a
11 refrigerator lorry that came from Maljine and parked in front of the
12 building. And they were also taking out furniture from that building and
13 putting it in that lorry. Once they had done this, they went to the
14 school to turn around there, the school in Guca Gora. Then they would
15 come back through the village, pass by the monastery in the direction of
16 Maljine. And I don't know where it finally went.
17 Q. Mr. Radic, you were mentioning that furniture was taken out and
18 you were repeatedly making reference to things that were taken out. Can
19 you please be a bit more specific in respect to the things that were
20 taken out.
21 A. Well, below the church, in the lower part of the village, Donja
22 Mahala, as it is called, the two of us, I and Zorica Volic [phoen], would
23 often look through the binoculars. And we saw two people carrying
24 something, either a fridge or something else. It was something big,
25 white. Sometimes it was black, too. And they were taking it towards
1 Parace. They would leave it there and then return. And they did the
2 same in Klisa above my house. I also saw two persons carrying something
3 and then loading this into a trailer or a tractor. It depended on what
4 they had.
5 Q. Furniture and a fridge. Is there anything else you became aware
6 of that was taken away?
7 A. Well, mostly bulky things we could see. One person may not have
8 been able to carry this, a fridge or a large piece of furniture. They
9 needed two persons to carry this. We had a big television in the house
10 too. So most of the appliances, the technical appliances that they could
11 carry out, they took these things out. Two persons would carry these
12 things out.
13 Q. You were mentioning earlier on that you have seen individuals in
14 uniforms taking such things you just detailed away. Were these military
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And to your knowledge and from what you have seen, soldiers of
18 which military units were in Guca Gora on the 12th and the 13th of June,
20 A. Guca Gora on the 8th of June was abandoned, and on the 9th of
21 June there was still no one there, maybe four or five old people who
22 couldn't move. Only local people from Krpeljici and Maljine could have
23 done this, people who were members of the BH army.
24 Q. You were saying, Mr. Radic, that you watched what was going on in
25 Guca Gora by using binoculars. The 12th and the 13th of June, 1993, how
1 were the conditions, in terms of weather and having a clear sight?
2 A. It was summer. It was clear. There wasn't a cloud anywhere. It
3 was sunny. The weather was ideal.
4 Q. You described the looting to some extent. From what you have
5 seen, Mr. Radic, was there a certain system in place to loot the houses
6 in Guca Gora?
7 A. The village was deserted. There was no one there. They probably
8 knew about this. They had done this -- they had worked together in
9 fields for years. People would socialise. On the whole, people knew
10 what others had in their houses. For example, a friend of mine with whom
11 I played football for years in Guca Gora, Rasid Dautovic, who was a
12 member of the BH army - he worked there as a communications officer - we
13 spoke to each other over the radio and he told me that he had been in my
14 room. He knew the layout of my room. He said he had taken some rings of
15 mine, some golden chains, a light-blue trainer suit that he described in
17 Q. This person with the name Rasid Dautovic whom you describe having
18 been a member of the ABiH, do you know which unit he belonged to?
19 A. I knew that he was a BH army member in the village of Maljine
20 before the conflict, a member of his unit in the village. And when we
21 had been expelled from Guca Gora, when we received radio signals from
22 Guca Gora, we recognised Rasid Dautovic's voice. He was personally
23 asking a communications officer to ask how I was, to ask whether I was
24 alive and well. This communications officer contacted me, and we spoke
25 to each other over the officer and he told me about everything that I
1 have just informed you of.
2 Q. And again, what unit did he belong to? What unit of the ABiH, if
3 you know, Mr. Radic?
4 A. He was part of the communications unit which was located in the
5 church in Guca Gora, because we received information according to which
6 in Guca Gora - and this was through our intelligence service in the unit
7 - we discovered that in the monastery in Guca Gora that is where the
8 communications centre of the BH army was located. He was a
9 communications officer.
10 Q. This communication unit, was it established after the attack on
11 the 8th of June, 1993, at Guca Gora?
12 A. As far as I know, each village had its radio transmitter, and
13 they communicated by using this means. So each village had a radio
15 Q. Having seen the looting in Guca Gora on the 12th and the 13th of
16 June, 1993, did you get the impression that the items which were taken
17 away were brought to a collection point?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've been
19 following our learned colleague's examination-in-chief, and this is
20 certainly the best way. It's how we all decide to examine witnesses.
21 But from the beginning, the witness has been asked about the conclusion
22 he drew as to when the communications centre was founded and as to
23 whether after he had left Guca Gora and so on. The witness should tell
24 us about this of his own accord. We now object to this last question
25 because we see that the witness is asked to tell us about his
1 impressions. We think that there are no grounds to ask the witness to
2 address the Trial Chamber and talk to the Trial Chamber about his
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, you've taken
5 note of what the Defence has said. You're asking the witness to inform
6 us of his impressions, not of what he may have seen or heard. And what
7 he says would only be hearsay, so the value of such information is
8 questionable then.
9 MR. WITHOPF: Very well, Mr. President. I will rephrase my
11 Q. Have you seen, Mr. Radic, after the items you detailed earlier on
12 today were taken out from the houses, whether they were taken to certain
13 areas in Guca Gora prior to being driven away?
14 A. Yes. I mentioned the things that were taken out of the houses.
15 I mentioned Parace, below the church, and Klisa, below my house. So what
16 they took out they'd leave up there and then return to our houses down
17 below. So if they took something out in Parace, it was left at Parace.
18 They'd go and get other things, take them out again. When they had
19 gathered enough things, they'd load them into the trailer or onto the
20 tractor and go either to Maljine or to Krpeljici. So everything that
21 they took out, if a tractor couldn't get to the house or if the trailer
22 couldn't get there, they'd take them all out there, to Klisa and to
23 Parace. I saw this through my binoculars.
24 Q. Earlier on today, Mr. Radic, you already mentioned that there
25 were also houses burning in Guca Gora. Can you please inform the Trial
1 Chamber what you have seen in that respect.
2 A. On the 8th of June, which is when Guca Gora fell, we were getting
3 the wounded out throughout the day. Just before night fell, we saw tall
4 flames in the vicinity of the church. We knew Guca Gora very well, so we
5 knew that Danica Lujanovic's house was on fire. Half an hour later, the
6 flames spread to the house below Danica's house, Lujanovic's house. Ivka
7 and Niko Neimarevic's house. So it was before that day just before night
8 fell. The third house which was burning was Nikola Markovic's house, our
9 company commander.
10 All the other houses were set on fire two or three days after
11 Guca Gora had fallen. Two or three days after Guca Gora had fallen, they
12 set fire to Jakica Rajic's house and his stable, Tomislav Rajic's house
13 and his stable was set on fire. Afterwards, they went to the village and
14 the late Stipe Rajic's house was set on fire. During the day, houses
15 also burnt, and mostly houses burnt after unsuccessful attacks against
16 our positions. And we knew that they would take revenge against the
17 village, and this happened quite frequently. When they set fire to
18 houses in the evening, the houses would have burnt down by dawn. But
19 very often there were two or three houses burning during the night. And
20 this was mostly from the 12th or 13th of June onwards.
21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I would suggest to make the break
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have our 25-minute break
25 and we'll resume at ten past 4.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.
4 MR. WITHOPF:
5 Q. Mr. Radic, before the break, you were informing the Trial Chamber
6 in detail which houses were burnt down in Guca Gora on the 8th of June,
7 1993 and two or three days later. To your knowledge and based on from
8 what you have seen, how many houses were burnt down in Guca Gora?
9 A. Until the moment I was wounded on the 24th of December, 1993,
10 approximately 50 houses were burnt and destroyed, 50 houses and cow sheds
11 and stables.
12 Q. And to your knowledge and from what you have seen, how many
13 houses were destroyed within a week or two after the attack on 8th of
14 June, 1993?
15 A. From the moment of the attack on the 8th of June, up to the 25th
16 of June, approximately 15 to 20 houses and stables were burnt. So this
17 was within this first period.
18 Q. You were making a number of times, Mr. Radic, reference that
19 "they were burning down houses." Whom are you actually referring to in
20 saying "they"?
21 A. To the Muslims.
22 Q. To Muslim soldiers?
23 A. Both civilians and soldiers.
24 Q. In addition to Muslim civilians and soldiers burning down houses,
25 was anything else done for the purpose to destroy houses you became aware
2 A. We could see tiles being removed from the roofs of the houses in
3 Donje Maljine, in the lowers part of the village. In the house of Anto
4 Volic [phoen], we saw tiles being removed from the house. It was one of
5 the better houses. The owner worked in Germany. And as we were
6 watching, we could also see windows and doors being removed from the
8 Q. Within the first weeks after the attack on the 8th of June, 1993,
9 were there any inhabitants left in Guca Gora?
10 A. Only four or five bedridden elderly persons remained in Guca
11 Gora. They couldn't leave their houses. According to information I
12 received from people after the war, our Croats who remained in Travnik in
13 their apartments and houses helped them. They would go to Guca Gora to
14 see what had happened to their family houses, and they would bring food
15 to these elderly people.
16 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what happened to your own
18 A. My house was set on fire on the day when I was wounded, on the
19 24th of December, 1993. And it burnt to the ground.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,
21 I'm now going to show the witness a photograph in using both the Sanction
22 technology and the hard copies that will be made available.
23 For the information of the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel,
24 this is a photograph which was taken in the course of the investigation
25 against the accused Hadzihasanovic and Kubura in 2002.
1 Can the photograph please be put on the ELMO and can the witness
2 please be provided with a text marker.
3 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you can
4 see on the photograph in front of you on the screen.
5 A. You can see most of Guca Gora. You can't see Glavice, and you
6 can't see the area around the school and also the area towards Volici.
7 Q. Can you, Mr. Radic, please on the hard copy on your left side
8 encircle the houses you have seen being burnt down after the attack on
9 the 8th of June, 1993.
10 A. Only on the 8th of June?
11 Q. On the 8th of June and later on. I'm only referring to houses
12 you have seen yourself being burnt down.
13 A. I understand.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, maybe it would be
15 useful if the witness also told us where he was standing with his
17 MR. WITHOPF:
18 Q. Mr. Radic, please first finish marking the houses, and afterwards
19 would you please answer the question.
20 A. First you want me to put circles around the houses.
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. [Marks] I apologise. A part of the village is missing. One
23 part towards the school and the other part towards Glavice; those two
24 parts are missing in this photo.
25 Q. Mr. Radic, once you are finished, can you please put the
1 photograph on the ELMO to your left side.
2 A. [Witness complies]
3 Q. Can you please, in addition, identify the houses you have seen
4 been burnt down on the 8th of June, 1993, by writing the number "1" on
5 the right-hand side of the circle, please.
6 A. The 8th of June, you mean?
7 Q. The 8th of June, yes.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. For the sake of the transcript, the witness Radic has encircled
10 the houses he has seen being burnt down after the attack at Guca Gora on
11 the 8th of June, 1993, by encircling the houses; he has also identified
12 the houses which were burnt down on 8 June 1993 by marking such houses in
13 addition with the number "1."
14 Mr. Radic, I'm coming back to the question which was asked by the
15 Presiding Judge. Where were you standing at the time you have seen these
16 houses you just marked being destroyed?
17 A. On the 8th of June, I was in Nova Bila. And from Nova Bila, from
18 the building where the headquarters of the Frankopan Brigade was, I saw
19 the three houses that were set on fire sometime in the late afternoon,
20 the houses that I marked.
21 Q. And where were you standing on the 12th and the 13th of June,
23 A. I was in Cifluk village.
24 Q. Are you in a position, Mr. Radic, to also identify the houses
25 which were burnt or otherwise destroyed on the 12th and 13th of June,
1 1993, by adding to the circle the number "2"?
2 A. They are not in this photo. Those were in Glavice. Jakica
3 Rajic, Tomo Rajic, and Stipica Rajic's houses were at the entrance to
4 Guca Gora from the direction of Travnik.
5 Q. How many houses, to your knowledge and from what you have seen
6 yourself, were burnt down or otherwise destroyed on the 12th and 13th of
7 June in the areas you just mentioned and which are not on the photograph
8 in front of you?
9 A. Two houses were set on fire. They were at the very entrance to
10 the village -- and two cow sheds, so four buildings altogether. And at
11 the very entrance to the village, there was Stipo Rajic's house. And the
12 first two houses belonged to Jakica and Tomo Rajic.
13 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please again sign and date the photograph in
14 front of you. Today is the 26th of February, 2004.
15 A. [Witness complies]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, again, I insist.
17 He hasn't answered to the question of the Chamber. Where is Nova Bila?
18 Is it to the right, to the left? Where is Nova Bila in respect of this
19 photo? Can the witness please answer the Judge's question.
20 Witness --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean --
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In respect of the photo,
23 you had your binoculars and you were observing. From Nova Bila, where is
24 Nova Bila in respect of this photo?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the centre of Guca Gora
1 village, and to the south.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So you were
3 in the south and through the binoculars you could see what was going on
4 in Guca Gora. What was the distance between the locality and where you
5 were standing with binoculars? How far was that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of June, when we were in
7 Nova Bila, we could see the church and parish and we could see the three
8 houses that were on fire. We could see with our naked eye which houses
9 were on fire on that day. We had a direct line of vision, even without
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show these three
12 houses in the photo. Which are the three houses that you are now
13 referring to?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Danica Lujanovic's house, Ivka
15 Neimarevic's house and Nikola Matkovic's house.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand you
17 well, you were in the south of the photo. And what was the distance
18 between you and these three houses, 1 kilometre, 2 kilometres, 100
19 metres? What was the distance between these three houses and the place
20 where you were standing with your binoculars?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the crow flies? You mean as the
22 crow flies? It was about 2 or 2 and a half kilometres, the distance
23 between that area and Nova Bila.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the binoculars allowed you
25 to see the place that was about 2 kilometres away; am I right in assuming
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These three houses, we could see
3 them with our naked eye. With our naked eye, we could see these three
4 houses burning.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. Yes. And you
6 also said that your house had been set on fire on the day when you were
7 wounded. Your house, is your house in the photo or is it not?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where is it? Can you show it
10 to us? Can you show your house to the Chamber.
11 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it is here, at the place
13 that you're showing us.
14 Maybe the witness could mark it with a number. We have to be
15 precise. When we're asking you questions, we want to be absolutely clear
16 on things. We don't want to just have an approximation. Put a sign next
17 to your house so as to show us where your house was. Can you put a sign,
18 some sort of a symbol next to your house.
19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, may I make a suggestion? The
22 witness has been shown the map, Prosecution Exhibit P72, earlier on in
23 the today's proceedings. The witness may be able to identify the
24 location he's referring to as Nova Bila on this map.
25 Q. Mr. Radic, please have a look at the map. I think it's to your
1 left side. Can you please identify the location you are referring to as
2 Nova Bila.
3 A. [Indicates]
4 Q. And can you please encircle the location Nova Bila.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.
7 MR. WITHOPF: For the transcript, the witness has identified Nova
8 Bila on the map Prosecution Exhibit 72.
9 Can the map please be shown to all participants.
10 Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please again put the photograph on the ELMO,
12 please. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to actually identify the marking
13 you made in respect to your own house. Can you please fill in the black
14 circle completely in black and write down "this is my own house."
15 A. [Witness complies]
16 Q. Can you please read out, Mr. Radic, what you have written on the
17 photograph. Unfortunately, I can't read the Croatian language.
18 A. "This is my house."
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this photograph
21 into evidence, please.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please give me
23 an exhibit number for this document.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the next exhibit number is P73.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P73. Thank you.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at the request of
2 my learned friend, the witness first encircled his house and then
3 blackened that area. Before that, he marked the houses which were burnt
4 down by the end of June. Now we see that this place was blackened,
5 although the witness said his house was set on fire on the 24th of
6 December. So can we make a distinction. First there was a circle and
7 now this is black. So can we make a distinction in order to know that
8 this happened in some other period, that it didn't happen in June.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But he has indicated that his
11 house was set on fire not in June but on 24th of December, 1993. So we
12 are all clear that his house was set on fire on the 24th of December,
13 there's no ambiguity. And also, he put words "this is my house" next to
14 this blackened area. And we are clear, and you may rust assured that we
15 will be able to distinguish between what happened in June and what
16 happened subsequently in December.
17 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President. This actually
19 concludes the Prosecution's examination-in-chief.
20 Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Witness, there was just something I would like to clarify before
23 I let the Defence take the floor.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you were part of
1 a medical unit and you said that you were its coordinator or you were in
2 charge of this small medical unit. What sort of qualifications do you
3 have? What sort of medical qualifications do you have? Are you a
4 stretcher bearer, a nurse, doctor? What was your exact function within
5 this medical unit?
6 A. I am a medical technician by profession, but I also served in the
7 medical corps in the former JNA. After the war, I worked in the clinic
8 in Travnik, in the emergency ward, so I was ready and prepared to prepare
9 a field clinic. I was the commander of the medical unit within the
10 brigade. My duties involved establishing field -- regional clinics in
11 villages. These were small medical units which were to serve in case
12 there were wounded who passed through. I had two or three people who
13 would provide first aid in the field until the wounded were then
14 transported to the hospital in Bugojno.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we can conclude
16 that you had logistical skills. Your contribution consisted of helping
17 these units. You didn't have any medical functions. You didn't give
18 anyone injections. You didn't give anyone cardiac massage. So you
19 didn't have any particular medical qualifications. Is that correct?
20 A. No. No. I'm a medical technician. I know how to provide basic
21 first aid.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that sometimes you
23 would call Dr. Suad Trskic, who was in the BH. You wanted to agree how
24 to locate the wounded. When you phoned him -- when you called him, was
25 it over the phone or was it over the radio?
1 A. No, you have misunderstood me. Dr. Suad Trkic -- not Trskic but
2 Trkic -- was a member of the BH army. He was deployed in Rudnik where
3 the command was located. There used to be a clinic there. The Travnik
4 health centre used to be there. Suad Trkic and I know each other from
5 work because I worked in the health clinic in Travnik. We knew each
6 other personally. Whenever we communicated, it was through our command,
7 through the Frankopan Brigade and the 316th Mountain Brigade. So I would
8 get into my vehicle, pass by the command, and consult him as to what
9 should be done.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We thought that you
11 would call him, but now you're saying that you would go through the
12 military command; is that correct? You didn't get him on the phone; it
13 was your military command. Is that correct?
14 And my very last question - and we won't have any further
15 questions for you, at least not as far as the Judges are concerned - you
16 said a while ago that when there was looting, there were Muslim women,
17 that's what you said. So these Muslim women, in your opinion, were they
18 civilians or were they soldiers? On the basis of what you were able to
19 see, what could you say?
20 A. They were civilians. The Muslim women were civilians. And what
21 I saw through the binoculars, I saw Muslim women wearing baggy trousers,
22 and I saw men - one, two, or three men, it depended - some only had the
23 upper part of their uniform and some had a complete uniform on, whereas
24 others were wearing civilian clothes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 I'll turn to the Defence now for their cross-examination.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Radic. My name is Edina
5 Residovic, and I represent General Hadzihasanovic.
6 A. Good day.
7 Q. I'll be asking you a number of questions relating to your
8 testimony before this Trial Chamber.
9 You said that you were born and lived in Guca Gora, in the
10 municipality of Travnik.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would it be correct to say, Mr. Radic, that in March 1992 you
13 were already mobilised into the Travnik Territorial Defence?
14 A. Yes. Mr. Zvonko Baja, who worked in the Territorial Defence,
15 brought me a piece of paper and asked me to become a member of the
16 Territorial Defence. That was during that period, during the first ten
17 days. When I signed that, it meant that there would be a unit there and
18 we could remain in our village if something worse happened than a Serb
19 attack; it meant that we could be deployed up there. But in the
20 following ten days, the situation changed completely and Territorial
21 Defence no longer existed in the territory of Guca Gora.
22 Q. Very well. According to your testimony, on the 8th of April,
23 1992, you joined the HVO and pledged your allegiance to the HVO; is that
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. The task you were assigned by your brigade or unit, by the
2 Travnik HVO Brigade, was to organise a field clinic in Guca Gora.
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. While performing your duties, you were able to observe that in
5 the second half of 1992 and at the beginning of 1993 in the territory of
6 Travnik but also in the wider area of Guca Gora a large number of
7 refugees started arriving.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In response to a question from my learned colleague, you said
10 that many refugees arrived from Krajina, from Jajce, and from other parts
11 of Western and Northwestern Bosnia; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The people you met and saw arrived there without any possessions,
14 as they had been expelled from their houses; is that correct?
15 A. No, not all of them. Some of them were carrying weapons too.
16 Q. I'm talking about property.
17 A. As far as property is concerned, yes, they didn't have anything.
18 Q. After the fall of Jajce, when the Serbian forces took the
19 positions defended by the BH army and the HVO, the inhabitants of Jajce,
20 as well as the defenders of Jajce, arrived in that area too; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Among those refugees, there were individuals and groups who
24 carried weapons, who could be seen carrying weapons; is that correct?
25 A. Well, this was more the case for groups than for individuals.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. In 1993, some of those people joined the BH army. They joined
2 certain units in the BH army. But they could still be seen in the
3 general area. They were unorganised or they were -- they organised
5 A. I don't know whether they joined the BH army immediately, but --
6 what else did you ask me about?
7 Q. These groups could be seen carrying weapons, and they would move
8 around the area that you are familiar with.
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Thank you. At that time, at the beginning of 1993, the BH army,
11 which was being founded, and the HVO didn't really have the uniforms of a
12 normal, regular army; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. In fact, they would all wear whatever they had. Some people had
15 complete uniforms, but others had combined uniforms. They would wear
16 parts of a uniform and their own clothes; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. However, some people -- many people who could obtain uniforms,
19 even if they weren't members of the HVO and the BH army, would put on
20 parts of such uniforms because it was the fashion to wear a uniform; is
21 that correct?
22 A. No, it's not correct. It wouldn't be correct to say that it was
23 the fashion to wear a camouflage uniform unless you were a member of some
25 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please: In 1993 - since a while ago
1 you said that you were able to listen to Radio Travnik - you heard over
2 the radio and via the media that in other areas not far from Guca Gora
3 there were armed conflicts between the army and the HVO; is that correct?
4 A. Sorry, could you repeat that question.
5 Q. At the beginning of 1993, did you hear through the media and in
6 other ways that in the area and the vicinity of Guca Gora, in Vitez, for
7 example, or in other areas, there were armed conflicts that broke out
8 between the HVO and the BH army?
9 A. Well, look, on the 8th of June, Nadja Ridzic, it was said that
10 the BH army had expelled the Croatian extremists -- HVO extremists from
11 Guca Gora and they were appealing to the population to return to their
12 houses. They said they would protect them. Am I an extremist for having
13 been expelled with my parents? Am I an extremist for this reason, and
14 the other municipalities?
15 Q. Well, as far as Vitez is concerned --
16 A. Well, Guca Gora and that area up there remained silent. There
17 was no fighting while there was fighting in Travnik and Vitez. There
18 were older people there who kept their word until the foreigners arrived.
19 Q. Thank you. I said we'd turn to the 8th of June, but do you know
20 -- are you aware of the fact that there was a conflict in Busovaca
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you aware of a massacre in Ahmici?
24 A. As far as the massacre in Ahmici is concerned, we knew that there
25 was fighting. But believe me, no one in Guca Gora knew about a massacre.
1 Q. Very well. You said that there was a road passing through Guca
2 Gora that linked up Travnik and Zenica; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would it be correct to say that in May 1993 the army had to use
5 that road in order to get from Travnik to Zenica or from Zenica to
6 Travnik? Is that correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. At that time, the normal road through Vitez and Busovaca, through
9 the Lasva Valley, could not be used by the BH army; is that correct?
10 A. I didn't say that. That road, the one you have just mentioned,
11 about that road we got information from the command of the Travnik
12 Brigade. For the sake of the Travnik-Zenica road, we were told that the
13 command of the army and the HVO had agreed that a corridor between
14 Travnik, Guca Gora, Maljine, Han Bila and Zenica would be used. We
15 didn't know anything else about that corridor, apart from an agreement
16 between the BH army and the HVO in Travnik.
17 Q. In the centre of Guca Gora, the HVO held a checkpoint which is
18 where people passing through would be checked.
19 A. That checkpoint was established after a checkpoint in Mosor had
20 been established. So this was just a response to the establishment of a
21 checkpoint in Mosor.
22 Q. You are aware of the fact that on that road from Travnik to
23 Zenica, not far from Guca Gora and in the direction of Travnik, on the
24 2nd of June the commander of the operative group Krajina, Mehmed Alagic,
25 was stopped and disarmed and only when Commander Blaskic intervened and
1 the international forces he was released? Are you aware of that?
2 A. I heard about that, but that -- something happened before that
3 event. Can I explain?
4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at the checkpoint in Guca Gora
5 four buses were stopped, buses transporting army members to positions
6 facing the Serbian forces on Turbe?
7 A. Yes. They were stopped because we had enough of all of that.
8 There were a lot of troops from Zenica going through Guca Gora and those
9 buses would take people to Mosor and onwards to Turbe. When the shift
10 would return, two to three buses would return. One bus or lorry
11 transporting troops would disappear and just didn't return. We were
12 afraid that troops were being deployed in our part of the territory and
13 the army and HVO covered Mosor. We were afraid of this. We were afraid
14 that these people being transported from Zenica were being transported to
16 Q. Are you aware of the fact that on that road on a number of
17 occasions the transport of the sick from Travnik to the Bolnica in Zenica
18 was prevented?
19 A. I was the commander of the medical corps, and when someone was
20 passing through from Travnik -- and everyone knew that I was in Guca
21 Gora -- they would come to the checkpoint, they would call me, and they
22 would then be sent on. So that is how they also enabled me to pass
23 through Mosor and Radojcici.
24 Q. You said that your company that was previously part of the
25 Travnik Brigade was reorganised and became part of the Frankopan Brigade
1 in 1993. You said that that was on the 1st of April, 1993.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The command of the brigade, as you said, up until the end of May
4 or the 30th of May, which is what my learned colleague pointed out, the
5 command was located in the old building within the monastery in Guca
6 Gora; is that correct?
7 A. Within the monastery in Guca Gora, yes.
8 Q. After that, the command left. It was moved to Nova Bila. And as
9 for the old building, the communications centre remained there and the
10 operations centre; is that correct?
11 A. Just one person, a signalman stayed on and he had a radio set,
12 and there was also an operations man affiliated with the brigade. He was
13 a resident of Guca Gora. Two men only stayed on in that building.
14 Q. Before I move on, I would like to show you the map that you have
15 already been presented by the Prosecution, but I'm going to give you a
16 clean copy because I would like you to mark certain places that you have
17 spoken about. I am going to ask you some questions about this map.
18 On the ELMO now we can see the map. I believe that before we
19 actually put it on the ELMO I would like you to show the place where Guca
20 Gora is and mark it by number "1."
21 A. Do you want me to put a circle around it and number "1"?
22 Q. Yes, number "1."
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Can you put number "2" next to Nova Bila.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. The place where you left on the 8th of June, when you left Guca
3 And then put number "3" next to Cifluk. Cifluk is the place
4 where the separation line was.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President. Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
8 MR. WITHOPF: My learned colleague just stated that Nova Bila was
9 the place the witness left for on the 8th of June. The witness has
10 repeatedly said that he left to the village of Cifluk on the 8th of June,
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Maybe we have
13 misunderstood each other. The witness is going to tell us. He told us
14 that on the 8th of June he was watching three houses burning from Nova
15 Bila. And to your question, Mr. President, he has repeated it. I may
16 have heard him wrong.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain, please?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yes, certainly.
20 A. On the 8th of June, with some of the troops and some civilians,
21 we withdrew to Cifluk. We were digging ourselves up all day long. And
22 sometime late in the afternoon I went to the headquarters, which is in
23 Nova Bila, and from the headquarters late in the afternoon or in the
24 early evening I saw the three houses burning. So it's on the same day.
25 Q. That's exactly how I understood you, but my learned friend had an
1 objection, and we just wanted your clarification. We've had it now.
2 So in the evening on the 8th of June you arrived in Nova Bila.
3 And I've asked you to put a number "3" next to "Nova Bila."
4 A. No, you said number "2."
5 Q. Yes, number "2."
6 And now can you please put number "3" next to Cifluk.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. You've also mentioned that you passed by Sarici village; however,
9 I can't see this village in the map. If you know where it is, can you
10 put "X" and "S" next to this village.
11 A. I've just put number "3" here. Can I put "X" over this number
12 "3" and can I put number "3" on the other side?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. So I'm putting "X" and "S."
15 Q. Just for the record, how did you mark Sarici?
16 A. I marked it with an "X" and with a "S."
17 Q. Thank you. And during the examination-in-chief, you said that
18 the command of the 306th Brigade was in Rudnik.
19 A. Rudnik Bila.
20 Q. Can you please mark that place also with an "X" and an "R," which
21 will show us that this is Rudnik.
22 A. [Marks]
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.
25 MR. WITHOPF: May the Prosecution please make a very practical
1 suggestion. We are not able to follow what the witness is actually
2 marking. Can the witness please be asked to put the photograph on the
3 ELMO and to make the markings on the ELMO.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe we can do it all
5 over again, 1, 2, 3, so we can all follow.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So can you please tell us in your own words what you have marked
8 on the map.
9 A. Guca Gora, number 1; Nova Bila, number 2; Cifluk, number 3; XS,
10 Sarici; XR, Rudnik Bila, the command of the 306th Mountain Brigade.
11 Q. Although you haven't spoken about that, can you please tell us,
12 to mark with the numbers the following places: Gornja Bukovica.
13 A. There's no Gornja Bukovica.
14 Q. Bukovica.
15 A. There is Bukovica Mala and Bukovica Velika.
16 Q. Bukovica Velika then.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Bandol.
19 A. What number do you want me to give to Bukovica?
20 Q. 4. Number 5, Bandol; and Krpeljici, number 6.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'm going to ask you some questions
23 about your markings. First, as we are looking at this map, can you tell
24 us about some distances. You've told us that Cifluk is about 3 to 3 and
25 a half kilometres from Guca Gora. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. As we are looking at this scale, one could say that Nova Bila is
3 about 7 to 8 kilometres from Guca Gora; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, if you take the road.
5 Q. So it cannot be 2 kilometres as you said a little while ago.
6 A. I said as the crow flies 2 kilometres.
7 Q. Tell me, please: From Guca Gora to Sarici, what is the distance?
8 A. From Guca Gora to Sarici by the road is about 3 kilometres.
9 Q. From Guca Gora to Cukle, what is the approximate distance?
10 A. Cukle or Cifluk?
11 Q. Cukle.
12 A. Guca Gora, if you went via Krabane to Cukle, there is about 3 and
13 a half to 4 kilometres.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Is it correct, Mr. Radic, that on the --
15 between the 4th and the 5th of June, 1993 the HVO carried out an attack
16 on Velika Bukovica?
17 A. As far as I know, on the 4th and on the 5th I was in Guca Gora in
18 my outpatients clinic by the school. On that day, an HVO member was
19 brought from Bukovica. He was wounded in the leg. His name is Anto
20 Lucic. And also, they brought a woman with a child. She was a Muslim
21 lady. We gave them first aid. From then we learnt that there was
22 shooting going on in Bukovica. Anto Lucic was quiet and this woman was
23 also quiet, so we knew that there was shooting going on, but nobody told
24 us who was shooting and why. It was only later on that we learned what
25 had happened.
1 Q. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. Radic, that on the 7th of June the
2 HVO carried out an attack on Bandol village and set it on fire?
3 A. On the 7th of June? It is impossible.
4 Q. Is it true, Mr. Radic, that the media of the HVO and the Croatian
5 television informed the population that the monastery in Guca Gora had
6 been set on fire?
7 A. I hear it for the first time.
8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the International Community
9 representatives came in order to verify this information and they
10 confirmed that the monastery in Guca Gora had been intact?
11 A. I'm not aware of that.
12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at the beginning of June the
13 command of the 306th Brigade was completely broken and prevented from
14 communicating? This was done by the HVO. Some parts of the brigade were
15 in Krpeljici, in Rudnik. One member of the command was in Mehurici. So
16 the command could not communicate with --
17 A. That's not correct. That's absolutely not true.
18 Q. I'm just asking. You don't have to shout.
19 A. I'm insulting by you saying they were totally broken up.
20 Q. On the day when you heard that there had been fighting in Guca
21 Gora on the 8th of June, together with some other civilian population
22 that had reached you in the hospital, went to the Croatian village of
24 A. No, not immediately. We were in the house next to the school
25 where our field clinic was. It was around 7.30 in the morning when a
1 group of some 20 armed members of the HVO from Maljine passed by the
2 clinic and they told us that the village of Maljine had fallen and that
3 the Mujahedin and the BH army had captured everybody but them. They were
4 the only survivors.
5 Q. Is it true that on that day the HVO and the population were
6 moving together towards the village of Sarici and further on towards Nova
8 A. I apologise. I didn't understand you.
9 Q. Is it true that both the troops, the HVO troops and the civilian
10 population together were moving and trying to break through towards Nova
12 A. Some part of the troops. Some part of the troops. The other
13 part remained in Glavice on the defence lines by their houses. Most of
14 the civilian population were together with us and were walking from Guca
15 Gora towards Sarici.
16 Q. So you were moving together with the civilians; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. You were in uniforms.
19 A. Very few troops were in uniforms.
20 Q. Thank you. On your examination-in-chief, you explained what you
21 saw from Nova Bila and what you saw from Cifluk. From the place where
22 you were observing through the binoculars, from Cifluk you could see as
23 if you were looking with your naked eye at a distance of some 300 or 400
25 A. If I was using binoculars in Cifluk, I could see people's
1 clothes, what people were wearing. I could see whether they were wearing
2 uniforms or civilian clothes, whether they were men or women. I could
3 see that well. I could recognise the clothes that people were wearing.
4 Q. On the 8th of June, when you were standing in front of the
5 command and as you were looking towards the monastery, you couldn't
6 notice any people that were moving around in Guca Gora; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct; I couldn't.
8 Q. You didn't know and you couldn't see who was it who set the
9 houses on fire.
10 A. The first three houses that were set on fire on the 8th of June,
11 I don't know who set them on fire. The first three houses.
12 Q. Later on, when you were watching from Cifluk, you noticed that
13 some houses were on fire and you marked them on the map that was given to
14 you by the Prosecution; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. These are the houses that we were watching burning during
16 the day and during the night.
17 Q. However, not for a single moment did you see the person that set
18 these houses on fire.
19 A. No, we didn't see -- I didn't see the person.
20 Q. From that distance where -- from which you were observing on the
21 12th and on the 13th people looting, people who wore uniforms or parts of
22 uniforms, you couldn't notice any insignia, any insignia of a unit that
23 these persons could belong to; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic. I have no further questions for
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 I'm turning to Mr. Dixon. Mr. Dixon, any questions?
4 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We don't have any questions
5 for this witness. This witness has in the main testified about incidents
6 in relation to Guca Gora, and Your Honour will be aware that Mr. Kubura
7 is not charged with any matters in relation to that particular village or
8 the other villages that have been mentioned by the witness today. I'm
9 grateful, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask
12 the witness to put the date and his name on the map that he has marked,
13 and I would like to tender this map into evidence as a Defence exhibit.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
15 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show the
17 document to the Prosecution, to the Defence counsel, as well as to the
19 We are going to check whether this is indeed the witness's name.
20 Yes, it is. Very well.
21 Mr. Registrar, can you please give us a number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH52.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this will be document DH52.
24 I'm turning to the Prosecution to see whether there are --
25 there's any re-examination.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no
2 questions in re-examination.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Radic, your testimony is finished. You have answered the
5 questions put to you by the Prosecution, as well as the questions put to
6 you give the Defence, and you have also answered the questions put to you
7 by the Judges. Thank you very much for your contribution, and we wish
8 you a happy journey back home.
9 I'm going to ask the usher to take you out of the courtroom.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the second witness is
13 concerned, I believe that you are going to apply for protective measures,
14 so we have to go into private session. Am I right?
15 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, Mr. President, you are right. Can we please
16 go into private session prior to the actual application?
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,
19 [Private session]
12 Pages 3580 to 3590 – redacted – private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:
18 Q. You indicated to the Court a while ago that you had moved on the
19 7th to your aunt's house, and the 8th of June would have been the next
20 day. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what transpired on the 8th of June
21 in your village where you were living as you know it.
22 A. At 4.00 in the morning on the 8th of June, they started shelling.
23 I was in my house. I didn't go out anywhere with my children, because I
24 had two small children. One of them was three years old and my draw was
25 a year and a half old. I didn't dare go outside. And at half past 1.00
1 in the afternoon the one who was with me also had small children and they
2 didn't have any bread any more, so she asked her aunt to bake some bread.
3 And they saw some smoke and then they appeared and took us prisoner.
4 Q. Witness ZF, you say "they started." Could you tell us who you
5 refer to when you say "they."
6 A. I'm referring to the Muslim army.
7 Q. And would you be able to assist us with the physical appearance
8 of this army that you're talking about or these people. Could you tell
9 us how they were dressed and how they looked.
10 A. One of them was in a camouflage uniform, and there was another
11 person in civilian clothes. He appeared in front of the door. He just
12 opened the door. I saw the -- his hand, and there was a coloured T-shirt
13 that he was wearing. And then he shut the door. And then someone else
14 turned up and they said, "All the Ustashas should be killed." My
15 children were crying and my neighbour's children were crying and the
16 other person in the front of door said, "If they are civilians, don't
17 touch them." And they came and they told us that we could come outside.
18 They said that nothing would happen to us. They said we would be taken
19 to Mehurici in a lorry and that our people were down there.
20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber for how long did this shelling
22 A. Well, the shelling lasted for about half an hour.
23 Q. Okay. You said that they took you captive. When you say that
24 they took you captive, could you tell us what happened. You were taken
25 out of your house. Could you tell us what happened?
1 A. They took us out of the house. They said, "You'll go in the
2 lorry." And there was a lot of space near my mother's house and a lorry
3 was parked there. I saw items from my house in the lorry. They had
4 looted the house. I asked them where they were going with the lorry.
5 There were two of them in camouflage uniforms. They said, "You won't be
6 going anywhere. You'll walk to Mehurici."
7 Q. Now, you said that there were -- there was a lorry there with
8 things in it and you saw things in the lorry that belonged to you. Did
9 you give anybody permission to remove those things from your house?
10 A. No, I didn't even know those soldiers. I didn't know any of
12 Q. And did you begin your journey to Mehurici as you were
14 A. Well, I had to. I went there with my children. There were 12 of
15 us, and we went to Mehurici.
16 Q. Did you have an escort on your way to Mehurici?
17 A. Yes. Two soldiers, wearing masks.
18 Q. Would you be able to say how they were dressed?
19 A. In camouflage, and they also had caps but they took them off.
20 They attached them to their shoulder. But they also had red headbands
21 and they had armbands, red and blue armbands.
22 Q. When you got to Mehurici, were you taken to any specific
24 A. No. They took us to the hall, the sports hall. My neighbours
25 were there. That's where they took us.
1 Q. Aside from your neighbours who you would have recognised at the
2 sports hall, could you assist the Trial Chamber with approximately how
3 many people were at the sports hall when you got there.
4 A. Well, there were 300 of us, perhaps a little more, but not less
5 than 300.
6 Q. And would you be able to assist us, Witness ZF, with the ethnic
7 origin of the detainees, please.
8 A. They were Croats.
9 Q. Now, this is the 8th of June, and could you describe for the
10 Trial Chamber your first day at the sports hall. Tell us how you were
11 treated. Tell us what the hall looked like. Give us a thorough picture,
13 A. It was terrible. When we got there, a lot of people were crying.
14 No one knew anything. There were drunken Muslim troops there. It was
15 terrible. They started provoking us and telling us all sorts of things.
16 There were quite a lot of Mujahedin there. They would pass through the
17 hall and speak to each other in a foreign language. I didn't understand
18 anything. And it was terrible.
19 Q. What about the conditions of the hall? What was the size of the
20 hall? Did you get meals? How were you treated?
21 A. Well, the hall wasn't very large. The Mujahedins wanted to go
22 in, to enter the hall, but certain guards didn't let them. Later on they
23 would frighten us. They'd say, "The Mujahedin will come in if you don't
24 calm down." There were some tins that we'd have to divide among six of
25 us. It was terrible.
1 Q. Now, you said to us that there were Muslim soldiers and there
2 were Mujahedins. Could you describe these people that you referred to as
3 Mujahedins. What did they look like and ...?
4 A. Well, they didn't look like our people. They were dark. They
5 had curly hair. They were short, plump, but they spoke in a foreign
6 language. They didn't speak in the Bosnian language. And that's why I
7 think they were Mujahedin.
8 Q. And these threats that you said that were made, were any threats
9 made specifically to you, your children? How did you feel?
10 A. My -- the grandmother always would cut my child's hair, but my
11 neighbour appeared and said, "Cut the child's hair," because a Mujahedin
12 came, pointed at her, and made this sign, that he would cut the Ustasha's
13 throat. I had to cut the pony-tail that my child had.
14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: For the record, Mr. President, I think the
15 witness was showing some gestures of putting her hand under her throat to
16 demonstrate a certain action.
17 Q. Did there come a time when you were taken away from the sports
19 A. No. No. They just cried out in the hall, "Cut the Ustasha's
20 throat," and they would point to the pony tail and wrap the pony-tail
21 around their fingers and say, "The Ustasha's throat should be cut."
22 Q. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you left the sports hall,
23 when they took you away from the sports hall, these Muslims and
24 Mujahedins that you said brought you to the sports hall? Did you leave
25 the sports hall?
1 A. No, I didn't go anywhere. I remained there until the exchange.
2 Q. Could you tell us when was the exchange.
3 A. On the 20th of -- on the 24th of June.
4 Q. And for how long then did you remain at the sports hall? How
5 many days?
6 A. 17 days.
7 Q. And where were you exchanged and with whom were you exchanged?
8 A. They exchanged us at Rampa in the direction of Guca Gora. That's
9 where you set off for Guca Gora. They exchanged us for the village of
10 Bukovica. There were four buses of us. They were full.
11 Q. During this time, could you tell the Trial Chamber where your
12 husband was.
13 A. Well, he was in Nova Bila.
14 Q. After the exchange, where did you go to?
15 A. To Busovaca. I got to Bila. There wasn't any room in Bila, so
16 they took us to Busovaca.
17 Q. Did there come a time when you reunited with your spouse, with
18 your husband?
19 A. Yes. I immediately joined my husband. When I got to Nova Bila,
20 I immediately joined my husband.
21 Q. Now, for how long did you live in Busovaca?
22 A. For eight years.
23 Q. Why didn't you go back to your home in Maljine?
24 A. Because it had been burnt down.
25 Q. How would you describe the experience of 8th June 1993?
1 A. Well, I would say that it was terrible. I was with my aunt in
2 her house. I saw my house on fire. I didn't know about anything. When
3 I saw that my house was on fire, we all cried. My mother cried. My
4 mother was with me. She is deceased now. We cried. When I saw that, it
5 was terrible at the time. And then at half past 1.00, they came to fetch
6 us. They sent us off to Mehurici, and we experienced that terrible
7 situation down there too, together with our children. There was nothing
8 for me to eat and there was nothing for my children to eat either. When
9 I got out of the camp, I weighed 30 kilos and I had to take care not to
10 fall over. I didn't have any strength at all.
11 Q. So you were sick and weak?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. What of your children? How would you say this has affected them?
14 A. To this very day, my girl is depressed. As soon as she hears
15 something bad, she starts shaking. She is in a very bad shape. She
16 suffers headaches. As soon as somebody starts telling something bad or
17 something horrible, she starts feeling headaches.
18 Q. Where do you live at present?
19 A. In Maljine.
20 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes
21 the examination-in-chief. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Benjamin.
23 And I'm turning towards the Defence.
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Can we please go into private session for the beginning of my
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall move into private
4 [Private session]
12 Pages 3599 to 3609 – redacted – private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And we're now in open session.
21 I'm turning to Mr. Withopf. I would like to hear from him what
22 the schedule for tomorrow is.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, tomorrow the
24 Prosecution will call two witnesses. And in order to reveal the names, I
25 would like to go into private session again.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,
3 [Private session]
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of
3 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.