Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3522

1 Thursday, 26 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 And could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, and

13 Kimberly Fleming, the case manager.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

15 And the appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good

17 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis Demirdjian,

19 our legal assistant. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 And the appearances for the other Defence team, please.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

24 Mr. Mulalic, our legal assistant.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

Page 3523

1 would like to greet everyone in the courtroom, the representatives of the

2 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in the

3 courtroom.

4 I'm going to ask Mr. Registrar to go into private session.

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing will

20 commence.

21 We were informed yesterday evening that there are three witnesses

22 scheduled for today. Could the Prosecution inform us of the order in

23 which the witnesses will be appearing.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, that's correct, there are three

25 witnesses available today.

Page 3526

1 In respect to the order, can we please go into private session?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Withopf. We

3 will go back into private session.

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 3527

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not quite. I can't see the

2 symbol on my screen -- oh, there is it is. We are in open session.

3 You want to tender two cassettes into evidence. As far as I can

4 remember, that is a witness who was granted protective measures, so we

5 have to go back into private session.

6 MR. WITHOPF: No. No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't the case.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. Zivko Totic didn't request any protective

9 measures. He testified in public session.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So please produce

11 the two cassettes.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, it was the video footage shown to

13 the witness Zivko Totic. We were able to isolate it. It has been burned

14 on one CD. Both portions are on the one CD, and the nine copies can be

15 made available to the parties. The last time Defence insisted --

16 insisted repeatedly -- that the Prosecution should play the video footage

17 again. We are well prepared to do the same exercise today again. It's

18 only five minutes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I am turning to the

20 Defence. The Prosecution, in accordance with your request, would like to

21 have these sequences shown, because on these cassettes we have in fact

22 two videos. Mr. Bourgon, there are no objections to having these two

23 sequences viewed?

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] No objections. Thank you,

25 Mr. President.

Page 3528

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth

2 please take the necessary steps to show the sequences. In theory, we

3 should see these two videos on our screens.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence doesn't

6 object to having this admitted into evidence immediately, without viewing

7 them again. This is just to save time, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to thank

9 the Defence for trying to save time. Mr. Registrar, could we have a

10 number for this cassette that in fact consists of two sequences.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P69 and

12 P70.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the number will

14 be P69 and P70. Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We'll now commence the

15 hearing of the witness, Mr. Dragan Radic. Could the usher go and call

16 the witness into the courtroom.

17 Could the usher go and call the witness into the courtroom. [The

18 witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dragan Radic.

20 Are you receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you have been called here as

23 a witness, given that you have to make a solemn declaration, could you

24 tell me what your first and last name is.

25 A. My name is Dragan Radic. I'm from Guca Gora, near Travnik.

Page 3529

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth and

2 what is your place of birth?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 5th of November, 1963, in Guca

4 Gora.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession at

6 the moment?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a technician.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, over ten years ago,

9 what was your profession at the time?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was also a medical technician at

11 the time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already

13 testified before court, either before a national court or international

14 court, or is this the first time?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As you will be

17 testifying before a court, you have to make a solemn declaration. Could

18 you please read the text that the usher will show you in your own

19 language.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

23 WITNESS: DRAGAN RADIC

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll provide you with some

Page 3530

1 explanations as to the procedure that will be followed here.

2 You will have to answer the questions put to you by the

3 representatives of the Prosecution, who are to your right. One of the

4 two persons who are to your right will be examining you on the basis of

5 the documents that concern the witnesses. An hour and a half has been

6 allocated for your examination.

7 After the Prosecution has concluded its examination-in-chief, the

8 representatives of the Defence will conduct their cross-examination and

9 will be putting questions to you in order to verify that you are a

10 credible witness. And in addition, they will be asking you questions

11 that are relevant for the defence of the accused.

12 The Judges, who are sitting before you, may at any point in time,

13 if they consider it necessary, ask you questions in order to clarify

14 issues that you may have addressed when answering the questions put to

15 you by the Prosecution. This depends on how you answer the questions put

16 to you.

17 To the extent that this is possible, try to answer the questions

18 fully and precisely, because your oral testimony will serve to establish

19 the truth for the Judges who are before you. And your oral testimony,

20 which will be supported by documents that the Prosecution will be

21 tendering into evidence, will be the base on which we will attempt to

22 establish the probative value of your testimony.

23 As you have made a solemn declaration, it is your duty to tell

24 the truth. If you give false testimony, a witness could be punished and

25 the penalties could be either a seven-year prison sentence or a fine.

Page 3531

1 But as you have made the solemn declaration, this is a possibility that

2 we exclude.

3 In addition, when answering the questions put to you, you might

4 feel that some of the information you have to provide could be used

5 against you at a subsequent date. In such a case, you can say that you

6 don't want to answer the question. If the Trial Chamber forces you to

7 answer the question, at that point the Trial Chamber would inform you

8 that given the Rules of Procedure and Evidence the information you

9 provide can't be used against you.

10 If you feel that there are any difficulties, please inform us of

11 the difficulties, and we will address the issue.

12 Have you understood what I have said?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for having listened

15 to us. I'll now turn to the Prosecution. I think it is Mr. Withopf who

16 will be conducting the examination-in-chief.

17 MR. WITHOPF: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

18 Mr. President. Indeed, it's me.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.

20 MR. WITHOPF: My apologies.

21 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

22 Q. Mr. Radic, good afternoon.

23 A. [No interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Radic, you just informed the Trial Chamber that you were born

25 in Guca Gora. Could you please also tell the Trial Chamber where you

Page 3532

1 grew up.

2 A. I grew up in Guca Gora.

3 Q. And where did you live in 1992 and early 1993?

4 A. In Guca Gora.

5 Q. Mr. Radic, have you ever been a member of the Yugoslav People's

6 Army, the JNA?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber when you joined the JNA

9 and when you left the JNA.

10 A. I went to the JNA in 1985, and I served until 1986.

11 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Radic, when you joined the HVO?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can you please tell the Trial Chamber when you joined the

14 HVO.

15 A. On the 8th of April, 1992, I became a member of the HVO, and I

16 took a solemn declaration.

17 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Mr. Radic, which unit,

18 which military unit of the HVO you joined in April 1992.

19 A. It was the Travnik Brigade.

20 Q. Once you joined the HVO, the Travnik Brigade, what were your

21 duties within the HVO?

22 A. I was in charge of setting up a medical corps in the area of Guca

23 Gora.

24 Q. What was the name of the HVO unit in the area of Guca Gora?

25 A. In the area of Guca Gora, a battalion was set up which belonged

Page 3533

1 to the Travnik Brigade up to the 1st of April, 1993, and that was when

2 the Frankopan Brigade was established.

3 Q. Did the Frankopan Brigade have a command post in Guca Gora?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber from when and until

6 when.

7 A. It was established on the 1st of April, 1993, and it existed up

8 to the end of May 1994.

9 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber where exactly this

10 command post was established in Guca Gora.

11 A. The command post of the Frankopan Brigade was in the old house

12 which was part of the monastery in Guca Gora.

13 Q. How far away, to your knowledge, was this old house which you

14 described being part of the monastery in Guca Gora?

15 A. You mean from the monastery?

16 Q. Right.

17 A. It was part of the monastery, but we used to call it "the old

18 house" because it was in a rather dilapidated state.

19 Q. How would you describe, Mr. Radic, the relationship between the

20 Muslim and the Croat population in the area of Guca Gora in early 1993?

21 A. It was peaceful, up to the arrival of refugees from Krajina,

22 Jajce, Karaula. There were no tensions before that, up to the moment of

23 their arrival.

24 Q. And what did happen, Mr. Radic, at the moment of their arrival?

25 A. When people from Krajina arrived in the area of the villages

Page 3534

1 around Guca Gora -- Mosor, Krpeljici, Radojcici, Maljine -- the structure

2 of the population changed, the make-up of the population changed. All of

3 a sudden they started putting barricades on the roads, they started

4 establishing checkpoints. People were stopped and searched at the

5 checkpoints. I'm talking about the local population that had used to

6 move around without any problems before that. There were minor

7 provocations.

8 Q. What was the ethnic background, Mr. Radic, of the people who came

9 from the areas of Krajina, Jajce, and Karaula?

10 A. Muslims.

11 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Radic, when a real conflict broke out

12 between the Muslims and the Croats in the area of Guca Gora?

13 A. You're asking me about the period when that happened?

14 Q. Right. Did there come a time when an actual war broke out

15 between the HVO and the ABiH?

16 A. At the moment when they arrived, there was already something in

17 the air. There were tensions in the air. There was fear among the local

18 Muslim and local Croat population. There was the feeling of distrust

19 amongst both. Nobody even thought about any conflicts. There was

20 nothing being said about any possible conflicts that might happen.

21 Q. Did there come a time when Guca Gora was attacked?

22 A. Yes. Towards the end of April, there was shooting by Muslims

23 from Radojcici. We didn't know in Guca Gora what was going on. We only

24 heard shots from Radojcici. They were shooting from Radojcici towards

25 us. And also, towards the end of April there was shooting from Donje

Page 3535

1 Maljine, also by Muslims.

2 Q. And did there come a second time, Mr. Radic, when Guca Gora was

3 attacked?

4 A. Guca Gora was attacked on the 8th of June.

5 Q. Was it the 8th of June, 1993?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber which army attacked Guca

8 Gora on the 8th of June, 1993.

9 A. 306th Mountain Brigade and the 7th Muslim. And according to our

10 information, those were units of the 3rd Corps at the time.

11 Q. The 3rd Corps of which army?

12 A. Of the Bosniak army.

13 Q. The ABiH?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how you got to know

16 that it was the 306th Mountain Brigade and the 7th Muslim Brigade which

17 were involved in the attack on Guca Gora on 8 June, 1993.

18 A. We learned that from the local Muslims, who had told us that the

19 7th Muslim was being formed in Zenica and that members of the 7th Muslim

20 were predominantly Mujahedins. A lot of people, a lot of foreigners

21 passed through our village; that is, Mujahedins passed through our

22 village. And we learned, when Guca Gora fell, from our civilians who

23 were captured and taken to Maljine and Mehurici -- a few days later they

24 were exchanged and we received information from them that it was that

25 unit that was involved in the attack.

Page 3536

1 And also, on the radio station of Travnik Nadja Ridzic praised

2 the successes of the BH army, the 7th Muslim, and the 306th Mountain

3 Brigade. She said that the extremists from the ranks of the HVO had been

4 chased away from Guca Gora and the neighbouring villages. And she also

5 said that this area should have surrendered to the BH army. This is what

6 we heard on Radio Travnik when they were expelled to Nova Bila.

7 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber who this person, Nadja

8 Ridzic is.

9 A. She is a journalist. She's affiliated with Radio Travnik and

10 also with Television Travnik. At that time, she used to call us Croats

11 extremists and Ustasha. She would use those words on her radio station.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you explained how you got to know about the 7th

13 Muslim Brigade. Can you please also explain to the Trial Chamber what

14 prompted you to know that it was the 306th Mountain Brigade which was

15 involved in the attack on -- at Guca Gora on the 8th of June, 1993.

16 A. The 306th --

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 14:24, the

18 Prosecution has repeated the same question and the witness has already

19 answered that question. So I don't see the reason for putting the same

20 question to the witness again.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I'm happy to rephrase the question.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please; rephrase.

23 MR. WITHOPF:

24 Q. Mr. Radic, in addition to the reasons you just explained to the

25 Trial Chamber as to how you got to know that the 7th Muslim Brigade and

Page 3537

1 the 306th Mountain Brigade were involved in the attack at Guca Gora, was

2 there anything in particular, in addition, which prompted you to get to

3 know that the 306th Mountain Brigade was involved in that attack?

4 A. The 306th Mountain Brigade was stationed in Rudnik. I went there

5 on several occasions. I went to the command, and I also went there when

6 I was passing through the village of Karlovcic when I was taking the

7 wounded and the sick towards the Nova Bila hospital. And before the

8 conflict, I also learned from the local Muslims that this 7th Muslim

9 Brigade had been established in Zenica, that its members were

10 predominantly foreign citizens, Mujahedins.

11 Q. Mr. Radic, what were your duties during the attack on the 8th of

12 June, 1993?

13 A. I was the commander of the medical unit of the Frankopan Brigade.

14 My duty was to set up this medical unit in the area of Guca Gora and the

15 neighbouring villages. I was also in charge of setting up field

16 hospitals to provide them with drugs, stretchers, and other equipment.

17 And also, if I had a vehicle at my disposal, I was in charge of

18 transforming it for the purposes of serving the medical unit.

19 Q. In the course of the attack, was there any communication between

20 the HVO and the ABiH for the purpose to exchange the wounded soldiers?

21 A. Yes. There were personal contacts. We would get in touch over

22 the telephone with the command of the 306th Mountain Brigade in Rudnik

23 and in Bila. And over the telephone we would agree. And then I could

24 pass towards Brajkovici, Cukle with the ambulance in order to pull out

25 the wounded and the sick from those villages.

Page 3538

1 Whenever I arrived in any of these villages, I had to pass by the

2 headquarters of the brigade, and then both I and the vehicle would be

3 searched. Then I would be allowed to proceed towards Grahovcici,

4 Brajkovici. It depended on where I was headed, in order to pull out the

5 wounded.

6 Dr. Suad Trkic participated in those negotiations. He was

7 deployed in Rudnik on behalf of the BH army. On several occasions, I

8 spoke to him and we said to each other that we were both medical

9 personnel and that we had to do our job. And when it comes to the

10 wounded and the injured, it sufficed for me to call him and I would be

11 given a free passage; and vice versa, the same arrangement would be

12 provided for them.

13 Q. The command of the 306th Mountain Brigade, who actually was the

14 commander of the 306th Mountain Brigade at the time?

15 A. I know that his family name was Sipic.

16 Q. The headquarters of the 306th Mountain Brigade in Rudnik and

17 Bila, how far away is Rudnik from Guca Gora?

18 A. 4 or 4 and a half kilometres.

19 Q. As a result of the attack of the ABiH 3rd Corps 306th Mountain

20 Brigade and the 7th Muslim Brigade, Mr. Radic, what happened to the

21 command post of the Jure Frankopan Brigade, close to the monastery you

22 were talking about earlier on today?

23 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question, sir.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has also not

Page 3539

1 understood the question.

2 The Defence, you have the floor.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am not raising the question of

4 whether the witness has understood the question. I would only like to

5 draw your attention that the witness has never told us that the command

6 post of the Jure Francetic Brigade [sic] was in the vicinity of the

7 monastery. He said that it was in the old house which was an integral

8 part of the monastery.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecution

10 should rephrase the question and be more precise, because the question

11 was rather ambiguous, Mr. Withopf. And the witness has never said that

12 the command post of the Frankopan Brigade was in the vicinity of the

13 monastery. So you may wish to clarify that as well.

14 MR. WITHOPF:

15 Q. Mr. Radic, as a result of the ABiH attack on 8th June 1993, what

16 happened to the command post of the HVO in Guca Gora?

17 A. On the 8th of June, the command post of the Frankopan Brigade was

18 not in Guca Gora. Towards the end of May, it was relocated to Nova Bila.

19 So on the 8th of June, there was just a communications man in the old

20 house where the command post used to be, and there was also an operations

21 man, a local of Guca Gora who used to live there. So on the 8th of June,

22 the command post of this brigade was no longer in the old house.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, just for clarification, earlier on today you said that

24 from the 1st of April, 1993, to the 30th of May, 1994, there was the

25 command post of the Jure Francetic -- of the Frankopan Brigade in Guca

Page 3540

1 Gora. Was it just a mistake on your side?

2 A. From the 1st of April until the end of May 1993, not 1994. It

3 was up to the end of May 1993.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic, for this clarification.

5 Does this mean that on the 8th of June, 1993, there was no

6 command post of the Frankopan Brigade in Guca Gora?

7 A. That is correct. Towards the end of May, between the 25th and

8 the 26th of May, 1993, the command post was moved to Nova Bila.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Can you please very briefly describe for

10 the Trial Chamber the cause of the attack at Guca Gora.

11 A. As far as I know, the BH army sent most of its troops from Turbe

12 via Guca Gora, so all the members moving from Zevica [phoen] towards

13 Turbe, to the front line facing the Serbs, had to pass via Guca Gora.

14 And I suppose that they were bothered by being constantly controlled by

15 the locals who carried arms in their own villages and were afraid of this

16 constant passage of the large number of troops through Guca Gora. And I

17 suppose that this was one of the major reasons why Guca Gora and the

18 neighbouring villages were attacked. They wanted to improve their

19 communication between Travnik and Zenica. They wanted to get a free

20 passage through there.

21 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether the ABiH was

22 successful in attacking Guca Gora.

23 A. Yes, it was successful for them. Yes.

24 Q. What did it mean for you on the 8th of June, 1993? Where did you

25 go to?

Page 3541

1 A. This meant that I was expelled from my place of birth, from my

2 house. We had to leave all of our possessions behind. We had to seek

3 refuge. We withdrew towards Nova Bila. At first we thought we would go

4 as far as Sarici. This is a village 2 kilometres away from Guca Gora.

5 However, we were not left in peace there. We were expelled from there

6 towards Cifluk and Nova Bila.

7 Q. Mr. Radic, did you stay in the village of Cifluk?

8 A. Cifluk, yes.

9 Q. And for how long did you stay in the village of Cifluk?

10 A. From the 8th of June, until when I was wounded, on the 24th of

11 December, 1993, when I was transferred to the hospital in Nova Bila. And

12 on the 12th of January, 1994, I was taken to Split for medical treatment.

13 I was taken there by helicopter.

14 Q. When on the 8th of June, 1993 did you arrive in Cifluk?

15 A. We arrived at about 10.00 or half past 10.00 in the morning.

16 Q. How far away is the village of Cifluk from Guca Gora?

17 A. Between 3 and 3 and a half kilometres.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,

19 I'm now going to show the witness Radic a map using the Sanction

20 technology but also using the hard copies, which are available for

21 distribution.

22 This map, for the information of both Defence counsel and the

23 Trial Chamber, is a part, is a portion of the bigger map which was

24 admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit P1 at the very beginning of

25 this trial.

Page 3542

1 Can the witness please be given one copy.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, can you identify on the map in front of you the

3 villages of Guca Gora and the villages of Cifluk.

4 A. Yes. Guca Gora --

5 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness be -- can the witness please be

6 provided with a fine-liner.

7 A. Should I encircle it or ...?

8 Q. Exactly, Mr. Radic. Can you please encircle the village of Guca

9 Gora and the village of Cifluk.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And can you please write next to Guca Gora "1" and next to Cifluk

12 "2."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Can you please date and sign this map.

15 Today is the 26th of February.

16 A. [Witness complies]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher will show the map to

18 the Prosecution, to the Defence, and to the accused.

19 Could we have an exhibit number, Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P72.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MR. WITHOPF:

23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.

24 Once you arrived in Cifluk on the 8th of June, 1993 and onwards,

25 did you monitor what was going on in Guca Gora?

Page 3543

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Page 3544

1 A. Yes, every day; with the naked eye and by using binoculars too.

2 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you have seen

3 going on in Guca Gora.

4 A. On the 8th of June?

5 Q. From 8th of June, 1993 onwards, please.

6 A. On the 8th of June, when we arrived in Cifluk, part of the

7 villagers withdrew with the troops, with people who were under arms, and

8 with civilians, who were in their shelter. The other inhabitants of the

9 village of Glavice remained at their positions because they didn't know

10 that the other part of the village had withdrawn, as we had no contact

11 with them.

12 Upon arriving in Cifluk, we found out that there was more

13 shooting. We heard this from Glavice and Krpeljici. And we realised

14 that part of the village had remained in Guca Gora. They were at the

15 entrance to Guca Gora, at the crossroads to Krpeljici and Guca Gora.

16 Upon arriving in Cifluk, HVO members who were armed remained there and

17 started digging in to prepare for defence in that area. We would take

18 the civilians on foot to Nova Bila, because it was safer there.

19 On that day, they kept shooting from the direction of Kljaci, Han

20 Bila, Zolot [phoen], Hali Hodza [phoen]. They opened fire at the people

21 there incessantly. From Sarici towards Cifluk. From Guca Gora to

22 Sarici, the passage from Guca Gora to Sarici, on that way we had a

23 blockade by the road. And above the road, 20 metres above the road, BH

24 army trenches had been dug. This was a clear area. In order to take the

25 civilians out, we had to attack those trenches and drive away the BH army

Page 3545

1 troops from those trenches.

2 There were local people from the village of Radojcici. When we

3 managed to drive them away, we took the people to Sarici. In Sarici,

4 which is a small village, everything was in an open space, fire was

5 opened from all directions and they fired at the people and the troops.

6 When we managed to get the people out of Sarici, we took them to Cifluk.

7 As I have already said, the troops remained there. They dug in, because

8 of -- the command of the Frankopan Brigade went there and stopped the

9 army. They said we didn't have anywhere further to go. We had to return

10 there. People understood this and assigned us the task of digging in.

11 We would make dugouts. We felled timber.

12 Q. Mr. Radic, may I please stop you here. On the 12th of June,

13 1993, did you watch what was going on in Guca Gora?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you have seen.

16 A. On the 12th of June, through the binoculars I saw houses burning

17 in Guca Gora and stables as well. You could see this with the naked eye

18 too.

19 Q. What else have you seen happening in Guca Gora, other than

20 burning houses?

21 A. I saw looting through the binoculars. I saw looting in the

22 village. I saw how carts and tractors from the direction of Krpeljici

23 and Maljine entered Guca Gora, descended towards our houses, loaded --

24 loaded things, and went towards Krpeljici or Maljine. There probably

25 wasn't enough fuel at the time, so the tractors and the trailers would be

Page 3546

1 parked before our convent in Guca Gora, at the Parace area and the Klisa

2 area. And through binoculars, we were able to see how they were taking

3 things out to Parace and Klisa, because it wasn't very far. You could

4 see this very clearly through binoculars. We saw people in uniforms. We

5 saw women wearing baggy Muslim trousers. We could more or less recognise

6 whether a person was a woman or a man by looking at them through the

7 binoculars.

8 So they loaded these things on, and then the tractor or trailer

9 would go towards Maljine or towards Krpeljici.

10 Also, there is a residential building in Guca Gora. We saw a

11 refrigerator lorry that came from Maljine and parked in front of the

12 building. And they were also taking out furniture from that building and

13 putting it in that lorry. Once they had done this, they went to the

14 school to turn around there, the school in Guca Gora. Then they would

15 come back through the village, pass by the monastery in the direction of

16 Maljine. And I don't know where it finally went.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, you were mentioning that furniture was taken out and

18 you were repeatedly making reference to things that were taken out. Can

19 you please be a bit more specific in respect to the things that were

20 taken out.

21 A. Well, below the church, in the lower part of the village, Donja

22 Mahala, as it is called, the two of us, I and Zorica Volic [phoen], would

23 often look through the binoculars. And we saw two people carrying

24 something, either a fridge or something else. It was something big,

25 white. Sometimes it was black, too. And they were taking it towards

Page 3547

1 Parace. They would leave it there and then return. And they did the

2 same in Klisa above my house. I also saw two persons carrying something

3 and then loading this into a trailer or a tractor. It depended on what

4 they had.

5 Q. Furniture and a fridge. Is there anything else you became aware

6 of that was taken away?

7 A. Well, mostly bulky things we could see. One person may not have

8 been able to carry this, a fridge or a large piece of furniture. They

9 needed two persons to carry this. We had a big television in the house

10 too. So most of the appliances, the technical appliances that they could

11 carry out, they took these things out. Two persons would carry these

12 things out.

13 Q. You were mentioning earlier on that you have seen individuals in

14 uniforms taking such things you just detailed away. Were these military

15 uniforms?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And to your knowledge and from what you have seen, soldiers of

18 which military units were in Guca Gora on the 12th and the 13th of June,

19 1993?

20 A. Guca Gora on the 8th of June was abandoned, and on the 9th of

21 June there was still no one there, maybe four or five old people who

22 couldn't move. Only local people from Krpeljici and Maljine could have

23 done this, people who were members of the BH army.

24 Q. You were saying, Mr. Radic, that you watched what was going on in

25 Guca Gora by using binoculars. The 12th and the 13th of June, 1993, how

Page 3548

1 were the conditions, in terms of weather and having a clear sight?

2 A. It was summer. It was clear. There wasn't a cloud anywhere. It

3 was sunny. The weather was ideal.

4 Q. You described the looting to some extent. From what you have

5 seen, Mr. Radic, was there a certain system in place to loot the houses

6 in Guca Gora?

7 A. The village was deserted. There was no one there. They probably

8 knew about this. They had done this -- they had worked together in

9 fields for years. People would socialise. On the whole, people knew

10 what others had in their houses. For example, a friend of mine with whom

11 I played football for years in Guca Gora, Rasid Dautovic, who was a

12 member of the BH army - he worked there as a communications officer - we

13 spoke to each other over the radio and he told me that he had been in my

14 room. He knew the layout of my room. He said he had taken some rings of

15 mine, some golden chains, a light-blue trainer suit that he described in

16 detail.

17 Q. This person with the name Rasid Dautovic whom you describe having

18 been a member of the ABiH, do you know which unit he belonged to?

19 A. I knew that he was a BH army member in the village of Maljine

20 before the conflict, a member of his unit in the village. And when we

21 had been expelled from Guca Gora, when we received radio signals from

22 Guca Gora, we recognised Rasid Dautovic's voice. He was personally

23 asking a communications officer to ask how I was, to ask whether I was

24 alive and well. This communications officer contacted me, and we spoke

25 to each other over the officer and he told me about everything that I

Page 3549

1 have just informed you of.

2 Q. And again, what unit did he belong to? What unit of the ABiH, if

3 you know, Mr. Radic?

4 A. He was part of the communications unit which was located in the

5 church in Guca Gora, because we received information according to which

6 in Guca Gora - and this was through our intelligence service in the unit

7 - we discovered that in the monastery in Guca Gora that is where the

8 communications centre of the BH army was located. He was a

9 communications officer.

10 Q. This communication unit, was it established after the attack on

11 the 8th of June, 1993, at Guca Gora?

12 A. As far as I know, each village had its radio transmitter, and

13 they communicated by using this means. So each village had a radio

14 transmitter.

15 Q. Having seen the looting in Guca Gora on the 12th and the 13th of

16 June, 1993, did you get the impression that the items which were taken

17 away were brought to a collection point?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've been

19 following our learned colleague's examination-in-chief, and this is

20 certainly the best way. It's how we all decide to examine witnesses.

21 But from the beginning, the witness has been asked about the conclusion

22 he drew as to when the communications centre was founded and as to

23 whether after he had left Guca Gora and so on. The witness should tell

24 us about this of his own accord. We now object to this last question

25 because we see that the witness is asked to tell us about his

Page 3550

1 impressions. We think that there are no grounds to ask the witness to

2 address the Trial Chamber and talk to the Trial Chamber about his

3 impressions.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf, you've taken

5 note of what the Defence has said. You're asking the witness to inform

6 us of his impressions, not of what he may have seen or heard. And what

7 he says would only be hearsay, so the value of such information is

8 questionable then.

9 MR. WITHOPF: Very well, Mr. President. I will rephrase my

10 question.

11 Q. Have you seen, Mr. Radic, after the items you detailed earlier on

12 today were taken out from the houses, whether they were taken to certain

13 areas in Guca Gora prior to being driven away?

14 A. Yes. I mentioned the things that were taken out of the houses.

15 I mentioned Parace, below the church, and Klisa, below my house. So what

16 they took out they'd leave up there and then return to our houses down

17 below. So if they took something out in Parace, it was left at Parace.

18 They'd go and get other things, take them out again. When they had

19 gathered enough things, they'd load them into the trailer or onto the

20 tractor and go either to Maljine or to Krpeljici. So everything that

21 they took out, if a tractor couldn't get to the house or if the trailer

22 couldn't get there, they'd take them all out there, to Klisa and to

23 Parace. I saw this through my binoculars.

24 Q. Earlier on today, Mr. Radic, you already mentioned that there

25 were also houses burning in Guca Gora. Can you please inform the Trial

Page 3551

1 Chamber what you have seen in that respect.

2 A. On the 8th of June, which is when Guca Gora fell, we were getting

3 the wounded out throughout the day. Just before night fell, we saw tall

4 flames in the vicinity of the church. We knew Guca Gora very well, so we

5 knew that Danica Lujanovic's house was on fire. Half an hour later, the

6 flames spread to the house below Danica's house, Lujanovic's house. Ivka

7 and Niko Neimarevic's house. So it was before that day just before night

8 fell. The third house which was burning was Nikola Markovic's house, our

9 company commander.

10 All the other houses were set on fire two or three days after

11 Guca Gora had fallen. Two or three days after Guca Gora had fallen, they

12 set fire to Jakica Rajic's house and his stable, Tomislav Rajic's house

13 and his stable was set on fire. Afterwards, they went to the village and

14 the late Stipe Rajic's house was set on fire. During the day, houses

15 also burnt, and mostly houses burnt after unsuccessful attacks against

16 our positions. And we knew that they would take revenge against the

17 village, and this happened quite frequently. When they set fire to

18 houses in the evening, the houses would have burnt down by dawn. But

19 very often there were two or three houses burning during the night. And

20 this was mostly from the 12th or 13th of June onwards.

21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I would suggest to make the break

23 now.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have our 25-minute break

25 and we'll resume at ten past 4.00.

Page 3552

1 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.

4 MR. WITHOPF:

5 Q. Mr. Radic, before the break, you were informing the Trial Chamber

6 in detail which houses were burnt down in Guca Gora on the 8th of June,

7 1993 and two or three days later. To your knowledge and based on from

8 what you have seen, how many houses were burnt down in Guca Gora?

9 A. Until the moment I was wounded on the 24th of December, 1993,

10 approximately 50 houses were burnt and destroyed, 50 houses and cow sheds

11 and stables.

12 Q. And to your knowledge and from what you have seen, how many

13 houses were destroyed within a week or two after the attack on 8th of

14 June, 1993?

15 A. From the moment of the attack on the 8th of June, up to the 25th

16 of June, approximately 15 to 20 houses and stables were burnt. So this

17 was within this first period.

18 Q. You were making a number of times, Mr. Radic, reference that

19 "they were burning down houses." Whom are you actually referring to in

20 saying "they"?

21 A. To the Muslims.

22 Q. To Muslim soldiers?

23 A. Both civilians and soldiers.

24 Q. In addition to Muslim civilians and soldiers burning down houses,

25 was anything else done for the purpose to destroy houses you became aware

Page 3553

1 of?

2 A. We could see tiles being removed from the roofs of the houses in

3 Donje Maljine, in the lowers part of the village. In the house of Anto

4 Volic [phoen], we saw tiles being removed from the house. It was one of

5 the better houses. The owner worked in Germany. And as we were

6 watching, we could also see windows and doors being removed from the

7 house.

8 Q. Within the first weeks after the attack on the 8th of June, 1993,

9 were there any inhabitants left in Guca Gora?

10 A. Only four or five bedridden elderly persons remained in Guca

11 Gora. They couldn't leave their houses. According to information I

12 received from people after the war, our Croats who remained in Travnik in

13 their apartments and houses helped them. They would go to Guca Gora to

14 see what had happened to their family houses, and they would bring food

15 to these elderly people.

16 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what happened to your own

17 house.

18 A. My house was set on fire on the day when I was wounded, on the

19 24th of December, 1993. And it burnt to the ground.

20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, with your permission,

21 I'm now going to show the witness a photograph in using both the Sanction

22 technology and the hard copies that will be made available.

23 For the information of the Trial Chamber and Defence counsel,

24 this is a photograph which was taken in the course of the investigation

25 against the accused Hadzihasanovic and Kubura in 2002.

Page 3554

1 Can the photograph please be put on the ELMO and can the witness

2 please be provided with a text marker.

3 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber what you can

4 see on the photograph in front of you on the screen.

5 A. You can see most of Guca Gora. You can't see Glavice, and you

6 can't see the area around the school and also the area towards Volici.

7 Q. Can you, Mr. Radic, please on the hard copy on your left side

8 encircle the houses you have seen being burnt down after the attack on

9 the 8th of June, 1993.

10 A. Only on the 8th of June?

11 Q. On the 8th of June and later on. I'm only referring to houses

12 you have seen yourself being burnt down.

13 A. I understand.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, maybe it would be

15 useful if the witness also told us where he was standing with his

16 binoculars.

17 MR. WITHOPF:

18 Q. Mr. Radic, please first finish marking the houses, and afterwards

19 would you please answer the question.

20 A. First you want me to put circles around the houses.

21 Q. Yes, please.

22 A. [Marks] I apologise. A part of the village is missing. One

23 part towards the school and the other part towards Glavice; those two

24 parts are missing in this photo.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, once you are finished, can you please put the

Page 3555

1 photograph on the ELMO to your left side.

2 A. [Witness complies]

3 Q. Can you please, in addition, identify the houses you have seen

4 been burnt down on the 8th of June, 1993, by writing the number "1" on

5 the right-hand side of the circle, please.

6 A. The 8th of June, you mean?

7 Q. The 8th of June, yes.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. For the sake of the transcript, the witness Radic has encircled

10 the houses he has seen being burnt down after the attack at Guca Gora on

11 the 8th of June, 1993, by encircling the houses; he has also identified

12 the houses which were burnt down on 8 June 1993 by marking such houses in

13 addition with the number "1."

14 Mr. Radic, I'm coming back to the question which was asked by the

15 Presiding Judge. Where were you standing at the time you have seen these

16 houses you just marked being destroyed?

17 A. On the 8th of June, I was in Nova Bila. And from Nova Bila, from

18 the building where the headquarters of the Frankopan Brigade was, I saw

19 the three houses that were set on fire sometime in the late afternoon,

20 the houses that I marked.

21 Q. And where were you standing on the 12th and the 13th of June,

22 1993?

23 A. I was in Cifluk village.

24 Q. Are you in a position, Mr. Radic, to also identify the houses

25 which were burnt or otherwise destroyed on the 12th and 13th of June,

Page 3556

1 1993, by adding to the circle the number "2"?

2 A. They are not in this photo. Those were in Glavice. Jakica

3 Rajic, Tomo Rajic, and Stipica Rajic's houses were at the entrance to

4 Guca Gora from the direction of Travnik.

5 Q. How many houses, to your knowledge and from what you have seen

6 yourself, were burnt down or otherwise destroyed on the 12th and 13th of

7 June in the areas you just mentioned and which are not on the photograph

8 in front of you?

9 A. Two houses were set on fire. They were at the very entrance to

10 the village -- and two cow sheds, so four buildings altogether. And at

11 the very entrance to the village, there was Stipo Rajic's house. And the

12 first two houses belonged to Jakica and Tomo Rajic.

13 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please again sign and date the photograph in

14 front of you. Today is the 26th of February, 2004.

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, again, I insist.

17 He hasn't answered to the question of the Chamber. Where is Nova Bila?

18 Is it to the right, to the left? Where is Nova Bila in respect of this

19 photo? Can the witness please answer the Judge's question.

20 Witness --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In respect of the photo,

23 you had your binoculars and you were observing. From Nova Bila, where is

24 Nova Bila in respect of this photo?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the centre of Guca Gora

Page 3557

1 village, and to the south.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So you were

3 in the south and through the binoculars you could see what was going on

4 in Guca Gora. What was the distance between the locality and where you

5 were standing with binoculars? How far was that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of June, when we were in

7 Nova Bila, we could see the church and parish and we could see the three

8 houses that were on fire. We could see with our naked eye which houses

9 were on fire on that day. We had a direct line of vision, even without

10 binoculars.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show these three

12 houses in the photo. Which are the three houses that you are now

13 referring to?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Danica Lujanovic's house, Ivka

15 Neimarevic's house and Nikola Matkovic's house.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand you

17 well, you were in the south of the photo. And what was the distance

18 between you and these three houses, 1 kilometre, 2 kilometres, 100

19 metres? What was the distance between these three houses and the place

20 where you were standing with your binoculars?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the crow flies? You mean as the

22 crow flies? It was about 2 or 2 and a half kilometres, the distance

23 between that area and Nova Bila.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the binoculars allowed you

25 to see the place that was about 2 kilometres away; am I right in assuming

Page 3558

1 that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These three houses, we could see

3 them with our naked eye. With our naked eye, we could see these three

4 houses burning.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then. Yes. And you

6 also said that your house had been set on fire on the day when you were

7 wounded. Your house, is your house in the photo or is it not?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where is it? Can you show it

10 to us? Can you show your house to the Chamber.

11 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it is here, at the place

13 that you're showing us.

14 Maybe the witness could mark it with a number. We have to be

15 precise. When we're asking you questions, we want to be absolutely clear

16 on things. We don't want to just have an approximation. Put a sign next

17 to your house so as to show us where your house was. Can you put a sign,

18 some sort of a symbol next to your house.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, may I make a suggestion? The

22 witness has been shown the map, Prosecution Exhibit P72, earlier on in

23 the today's proceedings. The witness may be able to identify the

24 location he's referring to as Nova Bila on this map.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, please have a look at the map. I think it's to your

Page 3559

1 left side. Can you please identify the location you are referring to as

2 Nova Bila.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. And can you please encircle the location Nova Bila.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.

7 MR. WITHOPF: For the transcript, the witness has identified Nova

8 Bila on the map Prosecution Exhibit 72.

9 Can the map please be shown to all participants.

10 Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Radic, can you please again put the photograph on the ELMO,

12 please. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to actually identify the marking

13 you made in respect to your own house. Can you please fill in the black

14 circle completely in black and write down "this is my own house."

15 A. [Witness complies]

16 Q. Can you please read out, Mr. Radic, what you have written on the

17 photograph. Unfortunately, I can't read the Croatian language.

18 A. "This is my house."

19 Q. Very well.

20 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this photograph

21 into evidence, please.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please give me

23 an exhibit number for this document.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the next exhibit number is P73.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P73. Thank you.

Page 3560

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at the request of

2 my learned friend, the witness first encircled his house and then

3 blackened that area. Before that, he marked the houses which were burnt

4 down by the end of June. Now we see that this place was blackened,

5 although the witness said his house was set on fire on the 24th of

6 December. So can we make a distinction. First there was a circle and

7 now this is black. So can we make a distinction in order to know that

8 this happened in some other period, that it didn't happen in June.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But he has indicated that his

11 house was set on fire not in June but on 24th of December, 1993. So we

12 are all clear that his house was set on fire on the 24th of December,

13 there's no ambiguity. And also, he put words "this is my house" next to

14 this blackened area. And we are clear, and you may rust assured that we

15 will be able to distinguish between what happened in June and what

16 happened subsequently in December.

17 Mr. Withopf, you may proceed.

18 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President. This actually

19 concludes the Prosecution's examination-in-chief.

20 Thank you very much, Mr. Radic.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Witness, there was just something I would like to clarify before

23 I let the Defence take the floor.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you were part of

Page 3561

1 a medical unit and you said that you were its coordinator or you were in

2 charge of this small medical unit. What sort of qualifications do you

3 have? What sort of medical qualifications do you have? Are you a

4 stretcher bearer, a nurse, doctor? What was your exact function within

5 this medical unit?

6 A. I am a medical technician by profession, but I also served in the

7 medical corps in the former JNA. After the war, I worked in the clinic

8 in Travnik, in the emergency ward, so I was ready and prepared to prepare

9 a field clinic. I was the commander of the medical unit within the

10 brigade. My duties involved establishing field -- regional clinics in

11 villages. These were small medical units which were to serve in case

12 there were wounded who passed through. I had two or three people who

13 would provide first aid in the field until the wounded were then

14 transported to the hospital in Bugojno.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we can conclude

16 that you had logistical skills. Your contribution consisted of helping

17 these units. You didn't have any medical functions. You didn't give

18 anyone injections. You didn't give anyone cardiac massage. So you

19 didn't have any particular medical qualifications. Is that correct?

20 A. No. No. I'm a medical technician. I know how to provide basic

21 first aid.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that sometimes you

23 would call Dr. Suad Trskic, who was in the BH. You wanted to agree how

24 to locate the wounded. When you phoned him -- when you called him, was

25 it over the phone or was it over the radio?

Page 3562

1 A. No, you have misunderstood me. Dr. Suad Trkic -- not Trskic but

2 Trkic -- was a member of the BH army. He was deployed in Rudnik where

3 the command was located. There used to be a clinic there. The Travnik

4 health centre used to be there. Suad Trkic and I know each other from

5 work because I worked in the health clinic in Travnik. We knew each

6 other personally. Whenever we communicated, it was through our command,

7 through the Frankopan Brigade and the 316th Mountain Brigade. So I would

8 get into my vehicle, pass by the command, and consult him as to what

9 should be done.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We thought that you

11 would call him, but now you're saying that you would go through the

12 military command; is that correct? You didn't get him on the phone; it

13 was your military command. Is that correct?

14 And my very last question - and we won't have any further

15 questions for you, at least not as far as the Judges are concerned - you

16 said a while ago that when there was looting, there were Muslim women,

17 that's what you said. So these Muslim women, in your opinion, were they

18 civilians or were they soldiers? On the basis of what you were able to

19 see, what could you say?

20 A. They were civilians. The Muslim women were civilians. And what

21 I saw through the binoculars, I saw Muslim women wearing baggy trousers,

22 and I saw men - one, two, or three men, it depended - some only had the

23 upper part of their uniform and some had a complete uniform on, whereas

24 others were wearing civilian clothes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 3563

1 I'll turn to the Defence now for their cross-examination.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Radic. My name is Edina

5 Residovic, and I represent General Hadzihasanovic.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. I'll be asking you a number of questions relating to your

8 testimony before this Trial Chamber.

9 You said that you were born and lived in Guca Gora, in the

10 municipality of Travnik.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would it be correct to say, Mr. Radic, that in March 1992 you

13 were already mobilised into the Travnik Territorial Defence?

14 A. Yes. Mr. Zvonko Baja, who worked in the Territorial Defence,

15 brought me a piece of paper and asked me to become a member of the

16 Territorial Defence. That was during that period, during the first ten

17 days. When I signed that, it meant that there would be a unit there and

18 we could remain in our village if something worse happened than a Serb

19 attack; it meant that we could be deployed up there. But in the

20 following ten days, the situation changed completely and Territorial

21 Defence no longer existed in the territory of Guca Gora.

22 Q. Very well. According to your testimony, on the 8th of April,

23 1992, you joined the HVO and pledged your allegiance to the HVO; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 3564

1 Q. The task you were assigned by your brigade or unit, by the

2 Travnik HVO Brigade, was to organise a field clinic in Guca Gora.

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. While performing your duties, you were able to observe that in

5 the second half of 1992 and at the beginning of 1993 in the territory of

6 Travnik but also in the wider area of Guca Gora a large number of

7 refugees started arriving.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In response to a question from my learned colleague, you said

10 that many refugees arrived from Krajina, from Jajce, and from other parts

11 of Western and Northwestern Bosnia; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The people you met and saw arrived there without any possessions,

14 as they had been expelled from their houses; is that correct?

15 A. No, not all of them. Some of them were carrying weapons too.

16 Q. I'm talking about property.

17 A. As far as property is concerned, yes, they didn't have anything.

18 Q. After the fall of Jajce, when the Serbian forces took the

19 positions defended by the BH army and the HVO, the inhabitants of Jajce,

20 as well as the defenders of Jajce, arrived in that area too; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Among those refugees, there were individuals and groups who

24 carried weapons, who could be seen carrying weapons; is that correct?

25 A. Well, this was more the case for groups than for individuals.

Page 3565

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 3566

1 Q. In 1993, some of those people joined the BH army. They joined

2 certain units in the BH army. But they could still be seen in the

3 general area. They were unorganised or they were -- they organised

4 themselves.

5 A. I don't know whether they joined the BH army immediately, but --

6 what else did you ask me about?

7 Q. These groups could be seen carrying weapons, and they would move

8 around the area that you are familiar with.

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Thank you. At that time, at the beginning of 1993, the BH army,

11 which was being founded, and the HVO didn't really have the uniforms of a

12 normal, regular army; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. In fact, they would all wear whatever they had. Some people had

15 complete uniforms, but others had combined uniforms. They would wear

16 parts of a uniform and their own clothes; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. However, some people -- many people who could obtain uniforms,

19 even if they weren't members of the HVO and the BH army, would put on

20 parts of such uniforms because it was the fashion to wear a uniform; is

21 that correct?

22 A. No, it's not correct. It wouldn't be correct to say that it was

23 the fashion to wear a camouflage uniform unless you were a member of some

24 unit.

25 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please: In 1993 - since a while ago

Page 3567

1 you said that you were able to listen to Radio Travnik - you heard over

2 the radio and via the media that in other areas not far from Guca Gora

3 there were armed conflicts between the army and the HVO; is that correct?

4 A. Sorry, could you repeat that question.

5 Q. At the beginning of 1993, did you hear through the media and in

6 other ways that in the area and the vicinity of Guca Gora, in Vitez, for

7 example, or in other areas, there were armed conflicts that broke out

8 between the HVO and the BH army?

9 A. Well, look, on the 8th of June, Nadja Ridzic, it was said that

10 the BH army had expelled the Croatian extremists -- HVO extremists from

11 Guca Gora and they were appealing to the population to return to their

12 houses. They said they would protect them. Am I an extremist for having

13 been expelled with my parents? Am I an extremist for this reason, and

14 the other municipalities?

15 Q. Well, as far as Vitez is concerned --

16 A. Well, Guca Gora and that area up there remained silent. There

17 was no fighting while there was fighting in Travnik and Vitez. There

18 were older people there who kept their word until the foreigners arrived.

19 Q. Thank you. I said we'd turn to the 8th of June, but do you know

20 -- are you aware of the fact that there was a conflict in Busovaca

21 before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you aware of a massacre in Ahmici?

24 A. As far as the massacre in Ahmici is concerned, we knew that there

25 was fighting. But believe me, no one in Guca Gora knew about a massacre.

Page 3568

1 Q. Very well. You said that there was a road passing through Guca

2 Gora that linked up Travnik and Zenica; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would it be correct to say that in May 1993 the army had to use

5 that road in order to get from Travnik to Zenica or from Zenica to

6 Travnik? Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. At that time, the normal road through Vitez and Busovaca, through

9 the Lasva Valley, could not be used by the BH army; is that correct?

10 A. I didn't say that. That road, the one you have just mentioned,

11 about that road we got information from the command of the Travnik

12 Brigade. For the sake of the Travnik-Zenica road, we were told that the

13 command of the army and the HVO had agreed that a corridor between

14 Travnik, Guca Gora, Maljine, Han Bila and Zenica would be used. We

15 didn't know anything else about that corridor, apart from an agreement

16 between the BH army and the HVO in Travnik.

17 Q. In the centre of Guca Gora, the HVO held a checkpoint which is

18 where people passing through would be checked.

19 A. That checkpoint was established after a checkpoint in Mosor had

20 been established. So this was just a response to the establishment of a

21 checkpoint in Mosor.

22 Q. You are aware of the fact that on that road from Travnik to

23 Zenica, not far from Guca Gora and in the direction of Travnik, on the

24 2nd of June the commander of the operative group Krajina, Mehmed Alagic,

25 was stopped and disarmed and only when Commander Blaskic intervened and

Page 3569

1 the international forces he was released? Are you aware of that?

2 A. I heard about that, but that -- something happened before that

3 event. Can I explain?

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at the checkpoint in Guca Gora

5 four buses were stopped, buses transporting army members to positions

6 facing the Serbian forces on Turbe?

7 A. Yes. They were stopped because we had enough of all of that.

8 There were a lot of troops from Zenica going through Guca Gora and those

9 buses would take people to Mosor and onwards to Turbe. When the shift

10 would return, two to three buses would return. One bus or lorry

11 transporting troops would disappear and just didn't return. We were

12 afraid that troops were being deployed in our part of the territory and

13 the army and HVO covered Mosor. We were afraid of this. We were afraid

14 that these people being transported from Zenica were being transported to

15 Travnik.

16 Q. Are you aware of the fact that on that road on a number of

17 occasions the transport of the sick from Travnik to the Bolnica in Zenica

18 was prevented?

19 A. I was the commander of the medical corps, and when someone was

20 passing through from Travnik -- and everyone knew that I was in Guca

21 Gora -- they would come to the checkpoint, they would call me, and they

22 would then be sent on. So that is how they also enabled me to pass

23 through Mosor and Radojcici.

24 Q. You said that your company that was previously part of the

25 Travnik Brigade was reorganised and became part of the Frankopan Brigade

Page 3570

1 in 1993. You said that that was on the 1st of April, 1993.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The command of the brigade, as you said, up until the end of May

4 or the 30th of May, which is what my learned colleague pointed out, the

5 command was located in the old building within the monastery in Guca

6 Gora; is that correct?

7 A. Within the monastery in Guca Gora, yes.

8 Q. After that, the command left. It was moved to Nova Bila. And as

9 for the old building, the communications centre remained there and the

10 operations centre; is that correct?

11 A. Just one person, a signalman stayed on and he had a radio set,

12 and there was also an operations man affiliated with the brigade. He was

13 a resident of Guca Gora. Two men only stayed on in that building.

14 Q. Before I move on, I would like to show you the map that you have

15 already been presented by the Prosecution, but I'm going to give you a

16 clean copy because I would like you to mark certain places that you have

17 spoken about. I am going to ask you some questions about this map.

18 On the ELMO now we can see the map. I believe that before we

19 actually put it on the ELMO I would like you to show the place where Guca

20 Gora is and mark it by number "1."

21 A. Do you want me to put a circle around it and number "1"?

22 Q. Yes, number "1."

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Can you put number "2" next to Nova Bila.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 3571

1 Q. The place where you left on the 8th of June, when you left Guca

2 Gora.

3 And then put number "3" next to Cifluk. Cifluk is the place

4 where the separation line was.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President. Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

8 MR. WITHOPF: My learned colleague just stated that Nova Bila was

9 the place the witness left for on the 8th of June. The witness has

10 repeatedly said that he left to the village of Cifluk on the 8th of June,

11 1993.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Maybe we have

13 misunderstood each other. The witness is going to tell us. He told us

14 that on the 8th of June he was watching three houses burning from Nova

15 Bila. And to your question, Mr. President, he has repeated it. I may

16 have heard him wrong.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain, please?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yes, certainly.

20 A. On the 8th of June, with some of the troops and some civilians,

21 we withdrew to Cifluk. We were digging ourselves up all day long. And

22 sometime late in the afternoon I went to the headquarters, which is in

23 Nova Bila, and from the headquarters late in the afternoon or in the

24 early evening I saw the three houses burning. So it's on the same day.

25 Q. That's exactly how I understood you, but my learned friend had an

Page 3572

1 objection, and we just wanted your clarification. We've had it now.

2 So in the evening on the 8th of June you arrived in Nova Bila.

3 And I've asked you to put a number "3" next to "Nova Bila."

4 A. No, you said number "2."

5 Q. Yes, number "2."

6 And now can you please put number "3" next to Cifluk.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. You've also mentioned that you passed by Sarici village; however,

9 I can't see this village in the map. If you know where it is, can you

10 put "X" and "S" next to this village.

11 A. I've just put number "3" here. Can I put "X" over this number

12 "3" and can I put number "3" on the other side?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. So I'm putting "X" and "S."

15 Q. Just for the record, how did you mark Sarici?

16 A. I marked it with an "X" and with a "S."

17 Q. Thank you. And during the examination-in-chief, you said that

18 the command of the 306th Brigade was in Rudnik.

19 A. Rudnik Bila.

20 Q. Can you please mark that place also with an "X" and an "R," which

21 will show us that this is Rudnik.

22 A. [Marks]

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

25 MR. WITHOPF: May the Prosecution please make a very practical

Page 3573

1 suggestion. We are not able to follow what the witness is actually

2 marking. Can the witness please be asked to put the photograph on the

3 ELMO and to make the markings on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Maybe we can do it all

5 over again, 1, 2, 3, so we can all follow.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So can you please tell us in your own words what you have marked

8 on the map.

9 A. Guca Gora, number 1; Nova Bila, number 2; Cifluk, number 3; XS,

10 Sarici; XR, Rudnik Bila, the command of the 306th Mountain Brigade.

11 Q. Although you haven't spoken about that, can you please tell us,

12 to mark with the numbers the following places: Gornja Bukovica.

13 A. There's no Gornja Bukovica.

14 Q. Bukovica.

15 A. There is Bukovica Mala and Bukovica Velika.

16 Q. Bukovica Velika then.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Bandol.

19 A. What number do you want me to give to Bukovica?

20 Q. 4. Number 5, Bandol; and Krpeljici, number 6.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you very much. Now I'm going to ask you some questions

23 about your markings. First, as we are looking at this map, can you tell

24 us about some distances. You've told us that Cifluk is about 3 to 3 and

25 a half kilometres from Guca Gora. Is that correct?

Page 3574

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. As we are looking at this scale, one could say that Nova Bila is

3 about 7 to 8 kilometres from Guca Gora; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, if you take the road.

5 Q. So it cannot be 2 kilometres as you said a little while ago.

6 A. I said as the crow flies 2 kilometres.

7 Q. Tell me, please: From Guca Gora to Sarici, what is the distance?

8 A. From Guca Gora to Sarici by the road is about 3 kilometres.

9 Q. From Guca Gora to Cukle, what is the approximate distance?

10 A. Cukle or Cifluk?

11 Q. Cukle.

12 A. Guca Gora, if you went via Krabane to Cukle, there is about 3 and

13 a half to 4 kilometres.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Is it correct, Mr. Radic, that on the --

15 between the 4th and the 5th of June, 1993 the HVO carried out an attack

16 on Velika Bukovica?

17 A. As far as I know, on the 4th and on the 5th I was in Guca Gora in

18 my outpatients clinic by the school. On that day, an HVO member was

19 brought from Bukovica. He was wounded in the leg. His name is Anto

20 Lucic. And also, they brought a woman with a child. She was a Muslim

21 lady. We gave them first aid. From then we learnt that there was

22 shooting going on in Bukovica. Anto Lucic was quiet and this woman was

23 also quiet, so we knew that there was shooting going on, but nobody told

24 us who was shooting and why. It was only later on that we learned what

25 had happened.

Page 3575

1 Q. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. Radic, that on the 7th of June the

2 HVO carried out an attack on Bandol village and set it on fire?

3 A. On the 7th of June? It is impossible.

4 Q. Is it true, Mr. Radic, that the media of the HVO and the Croatian

5 television informed the population that the monastery in Guca Gora had

6 been set on fire?

7 A. I hear it for the first time.

8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the International Community

9 representatives came in order to verify this information and they

10 confirmed that the monastery in Guca Gora had been intact?

11 A. I'm not aware of that.

12 Q. Are you aware of the fact that at the beginning of June the

13 command of the 306th Brigade was completely broken and prevented from

14 communicating? This was done by the HVO. Some parts of the brigade were

15 in Krpeljici, in Rudnik. One member of the command was in Mehurici. So

16 the command could not communicate with --

17 A. That's not correct. That's absolutely not true.

18 Q. I'm just asking. You don't have to shout.

19 A. I'm insulting by you saying they were totally broken up.

20 Q. On the day when you heard that there had been fighting in Guca

21 Gora on the 8th of June, together with some other civilian population

22 that had reached you in the hospital, went to the Croatian village of

23 Sarici?

24 A. No, not immediately. We were in the house next to the school

25 where our field clinic was. It was around 7.30 in the morning when a

Page 3576

1 group of some 20 armed members of the HVO from Maljine passed by the

2 clinic and they told us that the village of Maljine had fallen and that

3 the Mujahedin and the BH army had captured everybody but them. They were

4 the only survivors.

5 Q. Is it true that on that day the HVO and the population were

6 moving together towards the village of Sarici and further on towards Nova

7 Bila?

8 A. I apologise. I didn't understand you.

9 Q. Is it true that both the troops, the HVO troops and the civilian

10 population together were moving and trying to break through towards Nova

11 Bila?

12 A. Some part of the troops. Some part of the troops. The other

13 part remained in Glavice on the defence lines by their houses. Most of

14 the civilian population were together with us and were walking from Guca

15 Gora towards Sarici.

16 Q. So you were moving together with the civilians; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. You were in uniforms.

19 A. Very few troops were in uniforms.

20 Q. Thank you. On your examination-in-chief, you explained what you

21 saw from Nova Bila and what you saw from Cifluk. From the place where

22 you were observing through the binoculars, from Cifluk you could see as

23 if you were looking with your naked eye at a distance of some 300 or 400

24 metres.

25 A. If I was using binoculars in Cifluk, I could see people's

Page 3577

1 clothes, what people were wearing. I could see whether they were wearing

2 uniforms or civilian clothes, whether they were men or women. I could

3 see that well. I could recognise the clothes that people were wearing.

4 Q. On the 8th of June, when you were standing in front of the

5 command and as you were looking towards the monastery, you couldn't

6 notice any people that were moving around in Guca Gora; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct; I couldn't.

8 Q. You didn't know and you couldn't see who was it who set the

9 houses on fire.

10 A. The first three houses that were set on fire on the 8th of June,

11 I don't know who set them on fire. The first three houses.

12 Q. Later on, when you were watching from Cifluk, you noticed that

13 some houses were on fire and you marked them on the map that was given to

14 you by the Prosecution; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. These are the houses that we were watching burning during

16 the day and during the night.

17 Q. However, not for a single moment did you see the person that set

18 these houses on fire.

19 A. No, we didn't see -- I didn't see the person.

20 Q. From that distance where -- from which you were observing on the

21 12th and on the 13th people looting, people who wore uniforms or parts of

22 uniforms, you couldn't notice any insignia, any insignia of a unit that

23 these persons could belong to; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radic. I have no further questions for

Page 3578

1 you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 I'm turning to Mr. Dixon. Mr. Dixon, any questions?

4 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We don't have any questions

5 for this witness. This witness has in the main testified about incidents

6 in relation to Guca Gora, and Your Honour will be aware that Mr. Kubura

7 is not charged with any matters in relation to that particular village or

8 the other villages that have been mentioned by the witness today. I'm

9 grateful, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask

12 the witness to put the date and his name on the map that he has marked,

13 and I would like to tender this map into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

15 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show the

17 document to the Prosecution, to the Defence counsel, as well as to the

18 accused.

19 We are going to check whether this is indeed the witness's name.

20 Yes, it is. Very well.

21 Mr. Registrar, can you please give us a number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH52.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this will be document DH52.

24 I'm turning to the Prosecution to see whether there are --

25 there's any re-examination.

Page 3579

1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no

2 questions in re-examination.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Radic, your testimony is finished. You have answered the

5 questions put to you by the Prosecution, as well as the questions put to

6 you give the Defence, and you have also answered the questions put to you

7 by the Judges. Thank you very much for your contribution, and we wish

8 you a happy journey back home.

9 I'm going to ask the usher to take you out of the courtroom.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the second witness is

13 concerned, I believe that you are going to apply for protective measures,

14 so we have to go into private session. Am I right?

15 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, Mr. President, you are right. Can we please

16 go into private session prior to the actual application?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,

18 please.

19 [Private session]

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 3580

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Page 3591

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2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

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8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

18 Q. You indicated to the Court a while ago that you had moved on the

19 7th to your aunt's house, and the 8th of June would have been the next

20 day. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what transpired on the 8th of June

21 in your village where you were living as you know it.

22 A. At 4.00 in the morning on the 8th of June, they started shelling.

23 I was in my house. I didn't go out anywhere with my children, because I

24 had two small children. One of them was three years old and my draw was

25 a year and a half old. I didn't dare go outside. And at half past 1.00

Page 3592

1 in the afternoon the one who was with me also had small children and they

2 didn't have any bread any more, so she asked her aunt to bake some bread.

3 And they saw some smoke and then they appeared and took us prisoner.

4 Q. Witness ZF, you say "they started." Could you tell us who you

5 refer to when you say "they."

6 A. I'm referring to the Muslim army.

7 Q. And would you be able to assist us with the physical appearance

8 of this army that you're talking about or these people. Could you tell

9 us how they were dressed and how they looked.

10 A. One of them was in a camouflage uniform, and there was another

11 person in civilian clothes. He appeared in front of the door. He just

12 opened the door. I saw the -- his hand, and there was a coloured T-shirt

13 that he was wearing. And then he shut the door. And then someone else

14 turned up and they said, "All the Ustashas should be killed." My

15 children were crying and my neighbour's children were crying and the

16 other person in the front of door said, "If they are civilians, don't

17 touch them." And they came and they told us that we could come outside.

18 They said that nothing would happen to us. They said we would be taken

19 to Mehurici in a lorry and that our people were down there.

20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber for how long did this shelling

21 last.

22 A. Well, the shelling lasted for about half an hour.

23 Q. Okay. You said that they took you captive. When you say that

24 they took you captive, could you tell us what happened. You were taken

25 out of your house. Could you tell us what happened?

Page 3593

1 A. They took us out of the house. They said, "You'll go in the

2 lorry." And there was a lot of space near my mother's house and a lorry

3 was parked there. I saw items from my house in the lorry. They had

4 looted the house. I asked them where they were going with the lorry.

5 There were two of them in camouflage uniforms. They said, "You won't be

6 going anywhere. You'll walk to Mehurici."

7 Q. Now, you said that there were -- there was a lorry there with

8 things in it and you saw things in the lorry that belonged to you. Did

9 you give anybody permission to remove those things from your house?

10 A. No, I didn't even know those soldiers. I didn't know any of

11 them.

12 Q. And did you begin your journey to Mehurici as you were

13 instructed?

14 A. Well, I had to. I went there with my children. There were 12 of

15 us, and we went to Mehurici.

16 Q. Did you have an escort on your way to Mehurici?

17 A. Yes. Two soldiers, wearing masks.

18 Q. Would you be able to say how they were dressed?

19 A. In camouflage, and they also had caps but they took them off.

20 They attached them to their shoulder. But they also had red headbands

21 and they had armbands, red and blue armbands.

22 Q. When you got to Mehurici, were you taken to any specific

23 destination?

24 A. No. They took us to the hall, the sports hall. My neighbours

25 were there. That's where they took us.

Page 3594

1 Q. Aside from your neighbours who you would have recognised at the

2 sports hall, could you assist the Trial Chamber with approximately how

3 many people were at the sports hall when you got there.

4 A. Well, there were 300 of us, perhaps a little more, but not less

5 than 300.

6 Q. And would you be able to assist us, Witness ZF, with the ethnic

7 origin of the detainees, please.

8 A. They were Croats.

9 Q. Now, this is the 8th of June, and could you describe for the

10 Trial Chamber your first day at the sports hall. Tell us how you were

11 treated. Tell us what the hall looked like. Give us a thorough picture,

12 please.

13 A. It was terrible. When we got there, a lot of people were crying.

14 No one knew anything. There were drunken Muslim troops there. It was

15 terrible. They started provoking us and telling us all sorts of things.

16 There were quite a lot of Mujahedin there. They would pass through the

17 hall and speak to each other in a foreign language. I didn't understand

18 anything. And it was terrible.

19 Q. What about the conditions of the hall? What was the size of the

20 hall? Did you get meals? How were you treated?

21 A. Well, the hall wasn't very large. The Mujahedins wanted to go

22 in, to enter the hall, but certain guards didn't let them. Later on they

23 would frighten us. They'd say, "The Mujahedin will come in if you don't

24 calm down." There were some tins that we'd have to divide among six of

25 us. It was terrible.

Page 3595

1 Q. Now, you said to us that there were Muslim soldiers and there

2 were Mujahedins. Could you describe these people that you referred to as

3 Mujahedins. What did they look like and ...?

4 A. Well, they didn't look like our people. They were dark. They

5 had curly hair. They were short, plump, but they spoke in a foreign

6 language. They didn't speak in the Bosnian language. And that's why I

7 think they were Mujahedin.

8 Q. And these threats that you said that were made, were any threats

9 made specifically to you, your children? How did you feel?

10 A. My -- the grandmother always would cut my child's hair, but my

11 neighbour appeared and said, "Cut the child's hair," because a Mujahedin

12 came, pointed at her, and made this sign, that he would cut the Ustasha's

13 throat. I had to cut the pony-tail that my child had.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: For the record, Mr. President, I think the

15 witness was showing some gestures of putting her hand under her throat to

16 demonstrate a certain action.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you were taken away from the sports

18 hall?

19 A. No. No. They just cried out in the hall, "Cut the Ustasha's

20 throat," and they would point to the pony tail and wrap the pony-tail

21 around their fingers and say, "The Ustasha's throat should be cut."

22 Q. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you left the sports hall,

23 when they took you away from the sports hall, these Muslims and

24 Mujahedins that you said brought you to the sports hall? Did you leave

25 the sports hall?

Page 3596

1 A. No, I didn't go anywhere. I remained there until the exchange.

2 Q. Could you tell us when was the exchange.

3 A. On the 20th of -- on the 24th of June.

4 Q. And for how long then did you remain at the sports hall? How

5 many days?

6 A. 17 days.

7 Q. And where were you exchanged and with whom were you exchanged?

8 A. They exchanged us at Rampa in the direction of Guca Gora. That's

9 where you set off for Guca Gora. They exchanged us for the village of

10 Bukovica. There were four buses of us. They were full.

11 Q. During this time, could you tell the Trial Chamber where your

12 husband was.

13 A. Well, he was in Nova Bila.

14 Q. After the exchange, where did you go to?

15 A. To Busovaca. I got to Bila. There wasn't any room in Bila, so

16 they took us to Busovaca.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you reunited with your spouse, with

18 your husband?

19 A. Yes. I immediately joined my husband. When I got to Nova Bila,

20 I immediately joined my husband.

21 Q. Now, for how long did you live in Busovaca?

22 A. For eight years.

23 Q. Why didn't you go back to your home in Maljine?

24 A. Because it had been burnt down.

25 Q. How would you describe the experience of 8th June 1993?

Page 3597

1 A. Well, I would say that it was terrible. I was with my aunt in

2 her house. I saw my house on fire. I didn't know about anything. When

3 I saw that my house was on fire, we all cried. My mother cried. My

4 mother was with me. She is deceased now. We cried. When I saw that, it

5 was terrible at the time. And then at half past 1.00, they came to fetch

6 us. They sent us off to Mehurici, and we experienced that terrible

7 situation down there too, together with our children. There was nothing

8 for me to eat and there was nothing for my children to eat either. When

9 I got out of the camp, I weighed 30 kilos and I had to take care not to

10 fall over. I didn't have any strength at all.

11 Q. So you were sick and weak?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. What of your children? How would you say this has affected them?

14 A. To this very day, my girl is depressed. As soon as she hears

15 something bad, she starts shaking. She is in a very bad shape. She

16 suffers headaches. As soon as somebody starts telling something bad or

17 something horrible, she starts feeling headaches.

18 Q. Where do you live at present?

19 A. In Maljine.

20 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes

21 the examination-in-chief. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Benjamin.

23 And I'm turning towards the Defence.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Can we please go into private session for the beginning of my

Page 3598

1 cross-examination?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we shall move into private

3 session.

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19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And we're now in open session.

21 I'm turning to Mr. Withopf. I would like to hear from him what

22 the schedule for tomorrow is.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, tomorrow the

24 Prosecution will call two witnesses. And in order to reveal the names, I

25 would like to go into private session again.

Page 3611

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,

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Page 3612

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of

3 February, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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