1 Monday, 8 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. STAMP: May it please Mr. President, Your Honours. I, along
12 with Mr. Daryl Mundis and Ms. Ruth Karper, appear on behalf of the
13 Prosecution. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
15 And appearances for the Defence.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good
17 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic,
18 Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Mirna Milanovic, our legal assistant.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic,
22 our legal assistant.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber
24 would like to greet everyone in the courtroom, the representatives of the
25 Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and everyone else in the courtroom,
1 in particular, the Registrar, who disappeared for a few days and is now
3 We have a number of witnesses who will be heard today. Before we
4 start examining the witnesses, the Trial Chamber would like to remind both
5 parties that when a decision is rendered, it is necessary to listen to the
6 decision so that the interpretation is followed by the parties. Because
7 if we comment on a decision after a decision has been rendered, this could
8 give rise to confusion.
9 As far as the Judges are concerned, Article -- Rule 86 of the
10 Rules of Procedure must be respected -- Rule 46. Rule 46, not 86. As
11 well as the code of practice for the lawyers, which governs the rules to
12 be followed when exercising one's profession. In the future, when an oral
13 decision is rendered, it should be listened to and it shouldn't be
14 commented on while the decision is being rendered.
15 I'll now turn to Mr. Mundis. There are two witnesses on the
16 schedule for today. Could we call the first witness into the courtroom.
17 But Mr. Mundis or Mr. Stamp, who is the first witness you are going to
20 Mr. President, for whom an application we would want to make in private
21 session will have to be made.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Registrar. We
23 will go into private session.
24 [Private session]
12 Pages 4161 to 4169 redacted, private session
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Open session.
13 MR. STAMP: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, Witness ZJ, early in the morning on the 8th of June, 1993,
15 was there an attack upon the area that you were deployed in?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know who attacked, and from where?
18 A. The BH army, from the direction of the Bosniak villages, Mehurici,
19 Suhi Dol. In fact, from Zenica, they went to Brajkovici from Zenica.
20 Q. Where were you when the attack started?
21 A. I was in Bukovica, Velika Bukovica.
22 Q. Now, this attack, I take it it was against the HVO units in your
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My
2 colleague has just asked an extremely leading question. He told him that
3 this attack was directed at HVO units in his area. The attack could have
4 been conducted in a number of areas. And the Prosecution should have at
5 least allowed the witness to answer this question himself.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, you have taken note
7 of the comment, according to which the question was leading, and the
8 witness could only have provided one answer to the question. But you may
10 MR. STAMP: I was really trying to be as economical as I could on
11 time, which is almost precious as it here [sic]. I did not know that that
12 issue was in -- was contested at all. That is why I thought it was a
13 permissible leading question. But I'll be more careful.
14 Q. Did your units, that's the HVO, did the lines hold or did they
15 have to retreat?
16 A. As far as I knew, the resistance was very slight. The resistance
17 against BH attack, BH army attack.
18 Q. And did your lines hold firm, or were you forced to retreat?
19 A. Well, as each village fell, or as the soldiers withdrew, that is
20 what happened in each village. In fact, they didn't resist. There was
21 some sporadic shooting, as far as I could notice. That's what the defence
22 consisted of.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak more loudly.
24 MR. STAMP:
25 Q. Did you hear that Mr. ZJ. Could you speak a little more loudly,
1 and if you can, directly into the microphone.
2 Did you and your company retreat to any town in particular?
3 A. We withdrew to the territory of Nova Bila, that is to say, we
4 later established a line in the place called Cifluk.
5 Q. About when did you establish the line at Cifluk?
6 A. I think it was in the afternoon. In fact, the consolidation
7 lasted for a few days. On the same day, on the 8th of June, is when I
8 think we established these new lines.
9 Q. Incidentally, just for the record, Cifluk is C with a hat
10 diacritic, I-F-U-K [sic]?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, where is Cifluk?
13 A. Cifluk is about two and a half kilometres, as the crow flies, from
14 Guca Gora, about two and a half kilometres.
15 Q. When you established your line at Cifluk, about what time of the
16 afternoon was it?
17 A. It's difficult to say. It was difficult to realise that in all
18 the confusion, because there were civilians who were carrying on, going on
19 to Busovaca, Novi Travnik, and Vitez. So it's difficult to determine what
20 the exact time was, but it was about 5.00, 6.00, or 7.00.
21 Q. When you personally went there to the lines at Cifluk, was it dark
23 A. Well, not completely. But as I said, there was a lot of confusion
24 at the line itself, because the conflict was ongoing. So one didn't have
25 much time to think about what wasn't very important at the time.
1 Q. From Cifluk, could you see into Guca Gora?
2 A. Yes, of course.
3 Q. Are you in a position to say what is the condition of the houses
4 in Guca Gora at the time when Guca Gora was captured by the attackers?
5 A. We looked through binoculars. On the following day, we observed
6 more frequently, because on the day, there was still fighting. I know
7 that all the houses had been burnt down, apart from one or two, perhaps;
8 the houses were intact [as interpreted].
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's an
10 important mistranslation. The witness -- he's listening to what I'm
11 saying - said that apart from two or three houses which had been set on
12 fire, all the other houses were intact on the following day. According to
13 the translation, the witness said the reverse. He said, according to the
14 translation, that all the houses had been set on fire on the following
15 day. So the translation is quite the reverse of what the witness stated.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Mr. Stamp, could you clarify this matter. Ask the witness who
18 observed Guca Gora through the binoculars from a distance of two and a
19 half kilometres. Can you ask him what he saw.
20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, counsel.
21 Q. Witness, you heard what counsel said. I saw you nodding. Is it
22 correct that you said that apart from two or three houses that had been
23 set on fire, the other houses were intact after Guca Gora had been
25 A. The other houses were intact.
1 Q. And this was up until the next day, the day after, the 9th of
2 June, 1993?
3 A. That's right, yes.
4 Q. After that day, the 9th of June, did you observe anything
5 happening to those houses from your lines at Cifluk?
6 A. On the first day, I noticed -- in fact, it was on the 9th. I
7 noticed that Jozo Tavic's house was on fire. And on the following days, I
8 think there were about 10 or 20 houses. Maybe during the first 15 or 20
9 days, that's when they set fire to the greatest number of houses.
10 Q. And how about the contents of these houses? Do you know anything
11 about them?
12 A. I don't know exactly what you have in mind.
13 Q. Well, did the contents of the houses remain in the houses or were
14 they taken away?
15 A. My house is below the monastery, and naturally, when I observed
16 through the binoculars, I looked at the central part. We saw a number of
17 lorries there. They were covered, and looting was probably what was
18 happening. And during the following ten days, the lorries drove around.
19 There was a lot of traffic in Guca Gora.
20 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you just for a little precision, just to
21 help me with precision. You're saying that these things you saw during
22 the following ten days, the ten days following which date?
23 A. After the 8th of June, that is to say, when the BH army took Guca
25 Q. You said you saw lorries which were covered. Did you notice any
1 markings on any of these lorries?
2 A. No. They were civilian lorries. At the time, I don't remember
3 there being any military markings on lorries.
4 Q. You said looting was probably happening. That is a translation I
5 have. Could you tell us exactly what you saw in relation to looting.
6 A. As I said, we saw those two lorries. A lot of people were moving
7 around. There were a lot of large and small lorries driving around.
8 That's what I saw.
9 Q. Did you see these people doing anything or transporting anything?
10 A. It's difficult to say. It's difficult to say with certainty what
11 the people were doing, but what would unknown people be doing in Guca
12 Gora? What would they be doing setting fire to houses and probably taking
13 things that were of use? This is what one could assume.
14 Q. You said many of the houses were set on fire. What became -- what
15 happened to your house?
16 A. My house was also set on fire. My house and everything in the
17 surroundings. It was almost impossible to see that houses had been there,
18 at least the first time that we returned to that location.
19 Q. Did you see who it was who set the houses on fire? And I'm not
20 asking you if you saw individuals that you could identify, but are you
21 able to tell the Court if these individuals belonged to any particular
23 A. Well, the BH army. Because after the BH army attack, after the
24 place had been taken, naturally, no other units could have appeared, for
25 example, units from Republika Srpska.
1 Q. There is a Franciscan monastery in Guca Gora; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you know if, after the attack, any civilians, any Croat
4 civilians, were taken there?
5 A. I found out about that on the 9th of June, when members of the
6 international forces brought in civilians from the monastery who had
7 remained in part of Guca Gora, which was by the Bosniak village of
8 Krpeljici. They remained there. There was a lot of confusion then and
9 panic. And later they placed them in the monastery. Naturally, when
10 members of the international forces evacuated them on the following day,
11 they evacuated them to Nova Bila.
12 Q. Do you know what international force that was?
13 A. SFOR, UNPROFOR. I don't know. I don't really remember. In
14 various periods of time, the names were different.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness.
16 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. That's the
17 examination-in-chief, may it please you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stamp.
19 I just have one matter I would like to clarify, Witness. You said
20 you were two and a half kilometres away, and apparently, you followed what
21 was happening over a number of days. The people who were present, were
22 they aware of the fact that there were people observing them at a distance
23 of two and a half kilometres?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. One could
25 assume so, because we were familiar with this territory, and it was very
1 easy to assess the situation. We had a line of sight. Both parties had a
2 line of sight.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So those who were there were
4 aware of the fact that you were not very far away?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume so, because throughout the
6 entire war, we were attacked. They knew where our lines were very well.
7 So I don't doubt that they were aware of this.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll now turn to the
9 Defence for their cross-examination. I would like to point out that we
10 are in open session, so you should ask to go into private session when you
11 think it is necessary.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Okay, Mr. President. I would now
13 like us to go into private session, please.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, let's
15 go into private session.
16 [Private session]
12 Page 4178 redacted, private session
12 Page 4179 redacted, private session
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Witness, around March 1992, is it true that the Serbs occupied
3 Mount Vlasic and that the local population started to panic?
4 A. Well, yes.
5 Q. Is it correct also, Witness, that following the establishment of
6 the front line by Serb forces, members of the protection force for the
7 village of Guca Gora were assigned there in turn to spend shifts of one to
8 two days there, to take turns? Is that right?
9 A. Yes. At first, only members of the company from Guca Gora.
10 Afterwards, people came from Nova Bila and other locations.
11 Q. And it was only later, in the spring of 1992, that the Guca Gora
12 company was formed through the regrouping of the protection force in your
13 area; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like us to go
16 back into private session just for one question.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going into private
18 session, please.
19 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It was in this period of time, Witness, that the Travnik brigade
7 was formed --
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. Let me repeat my
11 Q. Witness ZJ, it was during this period that the Travnik Brigade was
12 formed and the Guca Gora company started reporting to the commander of the
13 battalion in Dolac, more specifically, to the commander, Ivo Bajo; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, Witness, in this period, relations between the Croat and
17 Muslim communities were good in Guca Gora; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Witness ZJ, during the second part of 1992, and the beginning of
20 1993, in the territory of Travnik and in the area of Guca Gora, there were
21 a large number of refugees that started arriving; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. These refugees were coming from Jajce, as well as from other
24 villages. From the west and north-west of Bosnia; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And these refugees, Witness, were coming because they had been
2 expelled and they arrived without any possessions; is that right?
3 A. I assume so. I'm not an expert to tell you.
4 Q. And is it true to say that with the fall of the town of Jajce,
5 when Serb forces took up positions defended by the HVO and the BH army,
6 the inhabitants of Jajce, as well as those who were defending that town,
7 also arrived in the area of Guca Gora?
8 A. Yes, more or less.
9 Q. Is it also true, Witness, that among those refugees, there were
10 individuals and groups who had arms?
11 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And is it also true, Witness, that some of those persons joined
13 the BH army during 1993 and slowly started to organise themselves?
14 A. As far as I know, they all joined the BH army.
15 Q. And you agree that they organised themselves little by little in
16 the course of 1993?
17 A. I didn't follow at all, nor did we have any contact with them,
18 because they were mostly in Bosniak villages, and I do assume that they
19 did organise themselves, that is, that they joined the Army of Bosnia and
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. During this period, would you agree with me
22 in saying that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the process of
23 formation, as well as the HVO, didn't really have the kind of uniforms
24 that one would expect of a regular army?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it also true to say, Witness, that in fact people were wearing
2 what they had, that is, some of them had complete camouflage uniforms,
3 whereas others only had parts of camouflage uniforms?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Would you agree with me, Witness, that during this period, there
6 were individuals who were neither members of the HVO nor members of the BH
7 army, but were still wearing parts of camouflage uniforms?
8 A. Yes, but they were in the minority.
9 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you agree with me that about March 1993,
10 relations between the Muslim and Croat communities were tense, to such a
11 point that you started digging trenches around the villages of Guca Gora
12 and try and establishing positions there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And among those trenches, Witness, you dug trenches towards the
15 villages of Krpeljici and Han Bila; is that right?
16 A. Trenches were being dug towards the villages from which there were
17 minor conflicts, because of those trenches, because trenches were being
18 dug on both sides, and vice versa.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Is it true that the Frankopan Brigade, which
20 replaced the Travnik Brigade, was created on the 1st of April and was
21 under the command of Ilija Nakic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it also true, Witness, that this brigade consisted of units
24 which were deployed, among others, in Guca Gora, Brajkovici, Nova Bila,
25 and Puticevo?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it also true, Witness, that the headquarters of the brigade for
3 the period between April and May 1993 was situated in the Guca Gora
5 A. Not in the monastery. Yes, within the compound of the monastery,
6 but in an old auxiliary building within that compound.
7 Q. And this building was attached to the main monastery, wasn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is it also true, Witness, that at the end of May 1993, commander
10 Nakic decided to relocate the headquarters of the brigade to Nova Bila,
11 leaving behind him in this building attached to the monastery a
12 communications and an operations centre? Is that right?
13 A. No. I didn't really pay much attention, but some kind of
14 communications centre was left behind, but just of a formal nature. As I
15 was saying, nothing was left of the brigade except for a signalsman, who
16 didn't really have any importance.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. Is it also correct to say that you
18 established checkpoints on the roads leading to the village of Guca Gora?
19 A. What period are you referring to?
20 Q. May 1993.
21 A. Yes. Everything was under a blockade. The Bosniaks and the
22 Croats couldn't establish contact for these reasons, perhaps from the last
23 days in May.
24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, I don't
25 know whether you received the interpretation of the last sentence. That
1 is why I was waiting. I will continue.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. As you said, at that time, things were under
3 a blockade and the BH army had to use that road to go from Travnik to
4 Zenica and from Zenica to Travnik; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Witness, were you aware of the fact that at the time the other
7 road that could be used to go to Zenica was the one that went via Vitez
8 and Busovaca, through the Lasva Valley, and at the time it couldn't be
9 used by the BH army?
10 A. I assume that's the case.
11 Q. Witness, do you know that one of the checkpoints established by
12 the HVO was in the centre of the village of Guca Gora?
13 A. No. It wasn't in the centre of the village.
14 Q. If the checkpoint wasn't in the centre of the village, could you
15 tell us where exactly the checkpoint was located, the checkpoint through
16 which one could gain access to the village?
17 A. Well, as in all the other villages, at the entrance and exit of
18 the village.
19 Q. Witness, are you aware that on the 2nd of June, 1993, at the
20 checkpoint through which one could gain access to Guca Gora, the commander
21 of the Bosanska Krajina operations group, Mehmed Alagic, was arrested,
22 disarmed, and only following the personal intervention of Colonel Blaskic
23 and of the international forces was it possible for him to be released?
24 A. I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. Witness, do you know that during the same period, at the same
1 checkpoint, through which one could gain access to Guca Gora, four buses,
2 transporting BH army members who were going to positions at the front
3 lines facing the Serbs in Turbe, they were arrested at this checkpoint,
4 these members of the military arrested them?
5 A. I don't know where the checkpoint was, where Mehmed Alagic was
6 arrested. That surprises me. But as for those members, we were afraid.
7 We stopped them because we didn't want them to deploy their forces in the
8 village. I know that 20 men stopped them there. At that time, I think
9 either in Vitez or Travnik, there was shooting. So naturally, there was
10 fear of the army.
11 Q. Thank you, Witness ZJ. In response to my last question, you
12 mentioned that the arrest of Mehmed Alagic surprised you. Is it my
13 question that surprised you or is it the fact that Mehmed Alagic was
14 arrested in June 1993?
15 A. No. It's the arrest of Mehmed Alagic that surprised me, because
16 I'm not aware of that.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness ZJ. Before we go on to the events that took
18 place in June, there are certain things that I would like to check with
19 you. They concern geographical matters in Guca Gora. You said a minute
20 ago that the distance between Cifluk and Guca Gora was two and a half
21 kilometres; is that correct?
22 A. Well, about two and a half kilometres. This is a rough estimate.
23 It could be three kilometres. As I said, about two and a half kilometres.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness ZJ. And the distance between Nova Bila and
25 Guca Gora, would you agree with me that it's a little over seven
1 kilometres as the crow flies, naturally?
2 A. Well, I don't know, but I could assume so, because Cifluk is
3 between Guca Gora and Nova Bila. And in territorial terms, it used to
4 belong to the Guca Gora municipality, or parish.
5 Q. Witness ZJ, if I show you a map, would that help you to confirm
6 the distance was seven kilometres between Nova Bila and Guca Gora?
7 A. No.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I'd like to go into private session,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session,
11 Mr. Registrar.
12 [Private session]
12 Page 4190 redacted, private session
12 Page 4191 redacted, private session
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Given the time, it's
6 necessary to have our break now. It's 10 to 4.00. We'll have our usual
7 25-minute break and we'll resume at 4.15.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
9 about ten more questions for the witness after the break.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you have the floor
13 again for the remaining ten questions that you have.
14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness ZJ, when you left for Guca Gora in the morning, you met
16 some civilians, as well as soldiers, on the road, which were going for
17 Bukovica; is that right?
18 A. Yes. The soldiers and civilians.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat what he said, please.
20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, did you say anything else in addition to: "Yes, soldiers
22 and civilians"? Did you say anything else that the interpreter didn't
24 A. From the village of Radonjici, both civilians and soldiers. Yes,
25 from the village of Radonjici.
1 INTERPRETER: That's what he said
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. And you tried, in view of the strategic
3 importance of Radonjici, to convince the soldiers to defend the village,
4 but you didn't succeed, and you all left for Nova Bila; is that right?
5 A. Yes, because at first I didn't have proper insight into the
6 situation. But when I saw that houses were already burning in the village
7 of Radonjici, and I saw large numbers of members of the BH army who were
8 numerically stronger than we were, so I realised there was no chance for
10 Q. And once you arrived at the headquarters of the brigade in Nova
11 Bila, that you were able to receive information regarding the situation in
12 Guca Gora; is that right?
13 A. No, not quite, because I was following what was going on over the
14 radio. The batteries were dying. I couldn't use it, but I could receive
15 information on it. And I knew that the village of Maljine had also fallen
16 to the BH army. So I heard that there was panic in Guca Gora, and that
17 was a logical reaction to what was happening.
18 Q. It was then that you left with a group of soldiers from your unit
19 towards Cifluk; and from there, you were able to see that the village of
20 Guca Gora had been taken without any damages?
21 MR. STAMP: I don't know if that's a question or if he's repeating
22 the evidence. That is not the evidence.
23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was a question.
24 I'm asking the witness whether it is true that, from the headquarters of
25 the brigade in Nova Bila, he left again with members of his unit towards
1 Cifluk, from where he was able to observe that the village of Guca Gora
2 had been taken, without any damage being done.
3 Q. Is that right, Witness?
4 A. I didn't go to the headquarters, and no members of my unit were
5 with me. I was alone. And en route to Sarici, going towards Guca Gora, I
6 was joined by two or three boys, or soldiers, who I didn't really know and
7 who went with me to Guca Gora. And we met the civilians and some soldiers
8 near the village of Radonjici. And another group of soldiers and
9 civilians stayed behind in a part of Guca Gora, in an area called Rajici
10 towards Krpeljici.
11 Q. Can you confirm, Witness, that when you were able to observe the
12 village of Guca Gora, which had been taken, the village had been taken
13 without any damage being done?
14 A. Yes. Nothing was burning. It was quiet. There was silence. All
15 efforts were focussed on the transportation of civilians, because when I
16 arrived, they were in a clearing which was exposed to the fire from the BH
17 army. And on the side were trenches of the BH army members from the
18 village of Radonjici. So that I did my best to have the people cover this
19 section of the road unharmed, as far as possible.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Did you have anything to add to your answer?
21 A. I see the word Radonjici, but not Radonjici. The village is
22 Radojcici. These are two different localities.
23 Q. Yes, indeed. Thank you for this clarification.
24 My question is the following: You know that the next day,
25 international forces, UNPROFOR, undertook the evacuation of a large number
1 of civilians who took refuge in the monastery of Guca Gora? Are you aware
2 of that fact?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You know, Mr. Witness, that among the people who were killed
5 during the attack on Guca Gora, on the basis of the rumours that you
6 heard, you said that there were two who were not members of your unit; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Witness, in your statement, you mentioned that the fact that the
10 name of a person may be on a list of people receiving financial aid does
11 not necessarily mean that that person was a soldier at the time of the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You are also aware, Witness, that this was a normal practice
15 during the conflict, that is, to place names of killed people on lists of
16 soldiers so that the families could receive financial aid; is that right?
17 A. I don't know whether that was the practice, but I do know that I
18 did so myself, for purely social benefit reasons. As for how other people
19 acted, I don't know.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Following the evacuation by international
21 forces of the people in Guca Gora, it was only the next day, that is, the
22 10th or 11th of June, that you saw houses on fire in Guca Gora; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is it also true that the distance between you and those houses at
1 that point in time was about three kilometres?
2 A. As I was saying, about two and a half to three kilometres,
3 something like that.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. Even with your binoculars, you were not able
5 to see whether the people who you could see in Guca Gora were civilians or
6 military people?
7 A. I couldn't.
8 Q. Is it also true that you couldn't tell the difference between an
9 older or a younger person, a man or a woman, and that you were not able to
10 identify any military insignia on the people that you could see in Guca
11 Gora? Is that right?
12 A. Quite right.
13 Q. Witness ZJ, when you answered questions from my learned friend,
14 you gave two answers. First you said unknown people were in Guca Gora,
15 and a second time you said that they were members of the Army of Bosnia
16 and Herzegovina. Is it true, Witness, that the only reason why you said
17 that, according to you, they were the BH army was a conclusion on your
18 part and not something that you yourself saw with your own eyes? Is that
20 A. I apologise. Are you talking about the period following the
21 attack on Guca Gora?
22 Q. Yes, Witness. The period following the attack. The days that
23 followed after the evacuation by international forces. You said a moment
24 ago that they were unknown people who were looting, and then later on, you
25 specified that they were members of the army. I submit to you that when
1 you said that they were members of the army was simply a deduction on your
2 part and not something that you yourself saw. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During the two months that followed the attacks and the conflicts
5 in Guca Gora, you were able to see several houses that were set on fire;
6 is that right?
7 A. Could you please repeat your question.
8 Q. Yes, of course, Witness. During the two months that followed the
9 events in Guca Gora, you were able to see from a distance several houses
10 that were set on fire; is that right?
11 A. No. For the first 15 days or so, several houses were burning, and
12 afterwards, sporadically, maybe one would be set on fire, and then nothing
13 for several months. But the main burning of houses occurred in the first
14 15 days following the attack.
15 Q. Witness ZJ, in your statement, you mentioned that up to 1995 even,
16 houses continued to be set on fire in Guca Gora; is that right?
17 A. I heard that one was set on fire, I think, in 1995. I only heard
18 about that. On the BH army days. And the house was owned by Tomo
20 Q. Witness, in your statement, you also said that between June 1993
21 and autumn 1997, the date when Croats could again feel safe in Guca Gora,
22 more than 70 per cent of the villages had been destroyed. Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, would you agree with me in saying that it is not possible
25 to say exactly when those houses were burnt, how they were set on fire,
1 and who set them on fire? Is that right?
2 A. I wouldn't agree with you. It is common knowledge that the BH
3 army had control of the area, captured the area, and they were responsible
4 for the burning and everything else. If they couldn't prevent it, if they
5 didn't do the actual burning, then they could have prevented it.
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. But you personally did not see members of the
7 army setting fire to houses in Guca Gora; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Witness ZJ, I don't know whether you were able to receive any
10 funds to reconstruct your own house, but on behalf of the Defence, I hope
11 you will, most sincerely.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. No question on your
14 I turn to Mr. Stamp once again. Is there any re-examination of
15 this witness?
16 MR. STAMP: There is, Mr. President, just one or two matters of
18 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. We are
22 in open session.
23 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much for that, Mr. President. I keep
24 forgetting where exactly we are. I'd respectfully ask that that part be
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let us redact
2 this and go into private session.
3 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, please, Mr. Stamp.
17 MR. STAMP:
18 Q. That you said within the compound of the monastery, the
19 headquarters of the Frankopan Brigade, in April and May of 1993, was in an
20 old auxiliary building within the compound, and you later on said that it
21 was attached to the monastery. What do you mean by that, that it was
22 attached to the monastery? Was it or was it not attached to the monastery
23 building? Or was it a detached auxiliary building within the compound?
24 A. Maybe the term was not quite accurate. It was a separate
25 building, and it was not attached to the monastery building. It was a
1 detached building.
2 Q. Another matter for clarification. You said that from your
3 observations -- or may I just start again with that question. You said in
4 respect to my friend for the Defence, that from your observations, Guca
5 Gora had been taken without any damage being done. And I believe you
6 said, when I was asking you questions, that you observed two to three
7 houses damaged when it was captured, at the time when it was captured.
8 Can you explain that to us, if there's a conflict or if not? Could you
9 just explain exactly what you mean.
10 A. I said at the beginning that two or three houses were damaged, and
11 there was smoke coming from them. I said that at the beginning.
12 Q. And is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now --
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. President, that the
16 whole answer was not translated, because he said that two or three houses
17 were damaged and that he could see smoke coming from them, but he added:
18 "I don't know whether it was from a shell or from ..." And then he
19 didn't finish his sentence. And this part of his answer was not
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Mr. Stamp, perhaps you should ask him the question again for the
23 answer to be complete, because the Defence tells us that the English
24 translation did not include a part of his answer, that is, what was the
25 generator of the damage. So it would be best for you to put the question
1 to the witness again and for the witness to answer your question with
3 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. You heard the exchanges now, Witness. Can you say how the two to
5 three houses were damaged?
6 A. It is hard to tell. I couldn't establish that from Bukovica, or
7 anywhere else, when we were going towards Radonjici, there is a better
8 view. There were shells falling. One could hear the shelling. So I
9 think in the area of Rajici there were two or three flames. Now, whether
10 they were caused by a shell or by incendiary bullets, because these were
11 also used widely.
12 Q. Very well. And you said the main bulk of houses were destroyed in
13 the first 15 days after the attack. Can you estimate about how many
14 houses form that main bulk of the houses that were destroyed within 15
16 A. I think that about 200 buildings in all, in Guca Gora itself.
17 There may be more, because there were stables, auxiliary buildings
18 burning. But in Guca Gora, I would say there were, in all, about 300
19 housing buildings, so about 200 to 250 were destroyed.
20 Q. And just to be clear. The focus of my question is also in respect
21 of the time these buildings were destroyed. Does your answer relate to
22 the first 15 days after the attack of 8 of June?
23 A. No. I'm saying in all, for the whole period. I don't have the
24 exact figures, how many houses, how many other buildings, but that would
25 roughly be the total number.
1 Q. I see. Now, are you able to help us? If you can, that would be
2 very good. If you can't, just say so. About how many houses - and you
3 may approximate - but about how many houses were destroyed in the first 15
4 days after the attack? You did tell us that the bulk of the houses were
5 destroyed in that period. Can you estimate about how many houses were
6 destroyed in that 15-day period after the attack?
7 A. I think the figure would be around 200 buildings.
8 Q. And just for clarification: Would those -- would all of those 200
9 be houses, or do you include other structures within the term "buildings"?
10 A. I'm talking about dwellings, houses.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 MR. STAMP: This is it, Mr. President, may it please you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, we are now
14 in open session. I would like to thank you for having answered the
15 questions put to you by the Prosecution and by the Defence. We wish you a
16 good trip home. I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the
17 courtroom, but we will first lower the blinds.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
21 [Private session]
12 Pages 4203 to 4210 redacted, private session
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I said that these were
18 curtains and there are blinds behind you which are going to be raised,
19 because there is a gallery. The public gallery is behind you.
20 Could you stand up, please, and tell me your first and last name.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivica Kegelj.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is your date of
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 15th of September, 1957.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your place of birth?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Dusina, in Zenica
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Can you
4 now tell me what your current profession is.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a safety inspector in the
6 Stevens Transport Company.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1993, ten years
8 ago, what was your profession at the time?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd finished the secondary
10 metallurgy school in Zenica in 1976, and from 1976 I worked in the Zenica
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already
13 testified before the Tribunal or is this the first time you have come to
14 testify before the Tribunal?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As this is the first
17 time, you have to make a solemn declaration. This is what one has to do
18 when testifying. I would like to ask you to read the text in your own
19 language, the text that is before you.
20 WITNESS: IVICA KEGELJ
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
25 I'll provide you with some information about the proceedings, about the
1 testimony you will be giving. The Prosecution, to your right, will put a
2 series of questions to you in a minute. You will answer their questions.
3 When they have concluded their examination-in-chief, Defence for the
4 accused, who are to your left, will also ask you a series of questions.
5 They will conduct what we call their cross-examination. The three Judges
6 sitting before you might also ask you some questions in order to clarify
7 certain issues.
8 As you have made the solemn declaration and sworn to tell the
9 truth, you should not lie, because if you do lie, that constitutes false
10 testimony. And if you give false testimony, penalties could be imposed on
11 you. You could either be fined or sentenced up to seven years in prison.
12 In addition, as the proceedings conducted here are particular, if, when a
13 question is put to you, you provide information that might be used against
14 you, you may in such a case refuse to answer. Or if the Trial Chamber
15 forces you to answer the question, in such a case, the information you
16 provide can't be used against you. It's a little complicated, but I had
17 to explain this.
18 If you don't feel well, tell us, and we will adjourn immediately.
19 Is everything fine? Have a little water. Can we continue?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may proceed.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kegelj. Can you please tell -- can you please
25 tell the Trial Chamber what town or village you were living at -- living
1 in in late 1992/early 1993.
2 A. I was living since my birth in the village of Dusina. From my
3 birth up until 1993, throughout that period, that is where I lived.
4 Q. Witness, were you employed in January 1993?
5 A. No. Until 1993, I was registered in the company, but for a year
6 prior to that, I was laid off.
7 Q. In January 1993, what were you doing? How were you keeping
8 yourself occupied?
9 A. I was in the HVO. I think I started in 1992. I was in the HVO
10 army. We kept guard duty in the village and we received salaries.
11 Q. Okay. Witness, what -- did you have a rank in January 1993 as a
12 soldier in the HVO?
13 A. No, I didn't have any rank. I was just a foot-soldier.
14 Q. You told us that you kept guard duty in the village. What village
15 are you referring to?
16 A. At first, we kept guard duty together with the BH army. For a
17 couple of months. And then, due to certain differences, we split. So we
18 kept guard of our neighbourhood and the BH army kept guard duty in their
20 Q. Again, Witness, when you make reference to "our neighbourhood,"
21 what neighbourhood are you referring to?
22 A. The village itself is divided. On the right side was a
23 neighbourhood consisting of six Croatian households and two Serb
24 households; and to the left side was a Muslim village.
25 Q. Yes. My question might not be clear, Witness, but what village
1 are you talking about?
2 A. Oh, I see. The village of Dusina. In the village of Dusina
4 Q. Other than performing guard duty in Dusina, what were your
5 responsibilities in the HVO, if any?
6 A. No. I didn't have any. We just kept guard duty and nothing else.
7 Q. In January 1993, as a soldier in the HVO, were you assigned to a
8 particular unit? And if so, what was the name or number of that unit?
9 A. The HVO. It was just the HVO. I don't know whether there was any
10 number of a unit. It was the area of Lasva, Visnjica, and Dusina. And
11 this is the unit that we belonged to as well.
12 Q. Witness, do you recall the name of your commanding officer?
13 A. Zvonko Rajic. He was in charge of the area of Lasva, Visnjica,
14 and Dusina.
15 Q. How many HVO soldiers were there in Dusina in January 1993 on a
16 more or less permanent basis?
17 A. I don't know the exact number, but I think seven or eight,
18 something like that.
19 Q. Where did these seven or eight HVO soldiers that were guarding
20 Dusina live? Where did they live?
21 A. They all lived in houses in Dusina, in their own neighbourhood.
22 Q. Were the seven or eight HVO soldiers in Dusina in January 1993
23 organised into any type of shifts or otherwise structured?
24 A. We had shifts. We would be on duty for 24 hours, two of us. And
25 then later, we would go in fours. And before the 26th of January, the
1 entire neighbourhood, all the HVO soldiers were on duty non-stop.
2 Q. What type of clothing did you wear when you were on duty as an HVO
3 soldier in Dusina in January 1993?
4 A. I had a camouflage uniform.
5 Q. What type of weapons did the HVO soldiers in Dusina have in
6 January 1993?
7 A. We had automatic rifles, Kalashnikovs, and we had a couple of
8 semi-automatic rifles, and one M-48 rifle.
9 Q. Witness, you mentioned before the 26th of January the entire
10 neighbourhood, all the HVO soldiers, were on duty non-stop. Can you tell
11 the Trial Chamber what happened on the 26th of January, 1993?
12 A. Two or three days prior to that, we noticed large groups of BH
13 army troops concentrating in the villages, and then our commander, our
14 leader, reported to the commander, Zvonko Rajic. However, Zvonko said
15 that we shouldn't worry, that he had made an agreement with the BH army,
16 that there would be no problems, and that, therefore, we shouldn't try
17 anything, that we should just keep quiet and that nothing would happen.
18 Q. Let me interrupt you there, Witness. You told the Trial Chamber
19 about large groups of BH army troops concentrating in the villages. What
20 villages were you referring to when you said that?
21 A. I was referring to the area of Brdo, the lower part of Dusina, and
22 the eastern or left side of Dusina, the Muslim part of the village, and
23 also on the north, large numbers of soldiers were noticed.
24 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened on the 26th of
25 January, 1993 in Dusina.
1 A. On the 25th of January, in the evening, we were on duty until
2 midnight. After midnight, some soldiers went home to sleep. I stayed on
3 in the house in which we were on duty. It was a Serb house which was more
4 or less in the centre of the Croatian part of the village. And after
5 midnight, we all fell asleep. There was no one on duty. In the morning,
6 around 5.00 or 6.00 a.m., I was awakened by the shooting, as were the
7 other soldiers. We all jumped up and we ran outside. I fled to the
8 basement of that house. Others fled to the garage. There was a garage
9 right next to the house. And I saw, coming from the north side, strong BH
10 army forces, and just then I could see them chasing civilians out of their
11 houses and shepherding them to Stipe's house.
12 When we ran out, an HVO soldier from the village of Brdo, and who
13 was with us that night, he was wounded. He was lying on the snow. He
14 cried out that -- saying that there was a sniper shooting from the Muslim
15 part of the village. We helped this Blasko, who was a -- Blasko Bosnjak.
16 We carried him to the garage. We carried a blanket from the house and
17 wrapped him in it. The sniper had hit him in the leg.
18 In the meantime, soldiers were coming from the north side, who
19 were in a column, approaching us.
20 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you for just a moment. You mentioned
21 civilians being shepherded to Stipe's house. Who is Stipe?
22 A. Stipo is my uncle.
23 Q. What is his surname or family name?
24 A. Stipo Kegelj.
25 Q. How many -- at the time the shooting started at 5.00 or 6.00 in
1 the morning, how many HVO soldiers were in the Serb house?
2 A. There were six or seven of us, so that two or three -- I don't
3 know exactly where they went. I think they went to help the civilians,
4 but I don't know. When we were surrounded, there were only four of us
5 there. And Blasko, who was wounded, which makes it five in all.
6 Q. You told us that you carried Blasko in a blanket back into the
7 house. After you returned to the house, how long did you and the other
8 HVO soldiers remain in that house?
9 A. No. I just went into the house to get the blanket. Then I came
10 out. We wrapped Blasko in the blanket and we carried him to the garage.
11 We stayed in the garage. I didn't go back into the house.
12 Q. How long did you remain in the garage with the other HVO soldiers?
13 A. Maybe some 15 minutes or so. In the meantime, these forces were
14 approaching from the north, and we were forced to surrender. We didn't
15 open fire. We didn't do anything. Augustin Rados, an HVO soldier, went
16 out and said: We're surrendering. Don't shoot any more.
17 Q. Do you recall approximately what time on 26 January 1993 you
18 surrendered in the village of Dusina?
19 A. Well, about 6.00 a.m.
20 Q. How many HVO soldiers surrendered on that morning in Dusina?
21 A. All of us surrendered. I know that there were the four of us who
22 surrendered. As for the civilians and the other HVO soldiers, I didn't
23 see them. They were over there, probably near Stipe Kegelj's house. I
24 couldn't see them, and I don't know when they surrendered over there.
25 There were quite a number of civilians in my own house as well. But I
1 don't know that. I didn't see it.
2 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened to you and the
3 other HVO soldiers after you surrendered.
4 A. When Augustin Rados said that we were surrendering, someone from
5 the BH army said that we should come out one by one with our hands up, and
6 that is what we did. We came out one by one. And they ordered us to come
7 closer, so we did come up to them with our hands up. We came right up to
8 them. We were ordered, all four of us, to lie down on the snow on our
9 stomachs. And then they searched us to see whether we had any weapons or
10 something like that. Then we got up. Once we got up, someone said that
11 we had a wounded man in the garage. And then all four of us went up to
12 the garage. One of the soldiers brought a stretcher. So we put Blasko
13 Bosnjak, who was wounded, on the stretcher. Now, I don't know who it was
14 who ordered that two men should carry Blasko, in the direction of their
15 village, that is, the Muslim part of the village. And I was the first,
16 and Mladen Kegelj. I picked up the stretcher. I was the one carrying --
17 no. Mladen Kegelj was in front. I'm sorry. He carried the stretcher in
18 front, and I at the back.
19 The soldiers around us were hitting us and pushing us around, so
20 that I received many blows in the back and my legs. I don't know what
21 they hit me with. And they ordered us to run as quickly as we could, run,
22 run, as fast as we could, up to the centre of the Muslim part of the
23 village, and the distance was about seven to eight hundred metres, and
24 that is what we had to do, to run and carry the stretcher.
25 When we reached this part of the village, I saw Esad Barucija's
1 house, where the headquarters was, and there were some doctors or
2 assistants - I don't know - from some sort of medical corps in that house.
3 So we put the stretcher down 20 or 30 metres away from the house.
4 Somebody took it over and carried him away.
5 Then the four of us were there, and two others who came behind us.
6 And we stood there for maybe some 10 minutes or so. Then one of the
7 soldiers ordered us to take off our shoes. And then we stood there
8 barefoot on the snow for 10 or 15 minutes. Then someone again gave us
9 orders to put on our shoes. They cursed us, saying all kinds of things.
10 We had HVO markings on our clothing, and the soldiers tore them off. I
11 know that somebody pulled me by the ear, saying that he would cut off my
12 nose. And things like that.
13 Then someone again gave us orders to put on our boots again, and
14 then there were other orders telling us to go back. And then they took us
15 back from the Muslim part of the village to the crossroads itself between
16 the Croatian and Muslim parts of the village. And at the very crossroads,
17 I saw all the civilians who had been captured that morning. They were
18 from my village.
19 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me interrupt you and ask a few questions in terms
20 of clarification. You've mentioned the names of Augustin Rados and Mladen
21 Kegelj as being among the HVO soldiers who surrendered. Do you remember -
22 in addition to yourself, of course - do you remember the names of the
23 other HVO soldiers who surrendered in Dusina on the morning of 26 January
25 A. When I surrendered, there was myself, Milenko Rajic, Augustin
1 Rados, Blasko Bosnjak, and Mladen Kegelj, the five of us.
2 Q. You also mentioned, later, two others joined you. Do you
3 remember -- you said two others who came behind us. Do you remember who
4 the other two individuals were?
5 A. I didn't quite understand the question. Out of the HVO soldiers,
6 there were five of us at that point. Later on, all the other soldiers who
7 were captured in another village, or rather, in the same village but in
8 another house, or next to another house. Later on, all the troops and all
9 the civilians, all were captured and all were brought to this crossroads
10 between the two neighbourhoods.
11 Q. Let me ask you: You've told us about being ordered to take off
12 your boots and then being ordered to put your boots back on. Do you know
13 who it was who gave these orders?
14 A. No, I don't know. One of the soldiers of the Army of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina. I have no idea who it was. I just know that someone ordered
16 us to take off our boots, and after some time, it could have been one of
17 the commanders who ordered us to put them back on. But just then, I don't
19 Q. Do you know, Mr. Kegelj, what unit or units the soldiers to whom
20 you surrendered were a part of?
21 A. I don't know. On that day, I saw many different types of
22 soldiers, and I didn't know them. I knew of the Army of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. As for the rest, I did not know or recognise the other types
24 of soldiers.
25 Q. Okay. Mr. Kegelj, I believe when I interrupted you, you were
1 telling us about being brought to the crossroads between the two
2 neighbourhoods. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened after
3 you were taken to that crossroads.
4 A. Yes. At that crossroads, the entire Croatian population that had
5 been captured that morning was there. They were all there in one spot.
6 This was a crossroads between the Croatian part of Dusina and the Muslim
7 part of Dusina. There was shooting around us. Soldiers were opening
8 bursts of fire. And just then, someone said: My uncle -- told my uncle's
9 wife that her son had been killed. Then she fainted, and the soldiers
10 again were opening fire around us, telling us to keep quiet, not to shout
11 or we would all get killed. Later on, five or ten minutes later, we were
12 ordered to head towards our village. As we were going there, I saw a
13 neighbour of mine, Hakanovic -- Edin Hakanovic. He was there, and he
14 said: I have joined the BH army to assist and to be in charge of this
15 operation, and I guarantee that no harm will come to you.
16 I know that that is what he said. And then he said: We are going
17 up to Brdo, because the village of -- in the village of Brdo there are
18 some more HVO soldiers who haven't surrendered. And he said that the
19 captured soldiers who can walk should go there, whereas the women and
20 children and the elderly should go to Stipo Kegelj's house.
21 And that is how we got to the crossroads leading to Brdo. That is
22 where we separated. I was designated to be part of the human shield going
23 to the village of Brdo, which is about seven to eight hundred metres away.
24 And we walked, escorted by BH army soldiers.
25 Q. Mr. Kegelj, approximately how many BH soldiers escorted you and
1 the surrendered HVOs as you proceeded towards the village of Brdo?
2 A. I don't remember the number of soldiers there were. There may
3 have been seven or eight of us, or six. And then about 20 or 25
4 civilians. So there were roughly 30 of us in all.
5 Q. You told us a few moments ago that Edin Hakanovic said the women
6 and children and elderly should go to Stipo Kegelj's house. Did they in
7 fact go there?
8 A. Yes. Yes. They went there, because we separated there. My wife
9 and children went in that direction, in fact, and I went towards Brdo, to
10 serve as a human shield, as I was ordered to do.
11 Q. How many civilians went with you towards Brdo?
12 A. I think 20 to 25. I don't know the exact number.
13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I'm about to go into
14 an area that I think might take us past the next scheduled recess. I
15 might suggest this might be a nice time to take the next break.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have the break
17 and we will resume the hearing at 10 past 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may now continue
21 with your examination-in-chief.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Kegelj, right before we took the recess, you were telling us
24 about being ordered, with the other HVO soldiers, to march or walk up
25 towards Brdo. Did you in fact go to Brdo on the 26th of January, 1993?
1 A. Yes. As I had been ordered, and I was escorted by BH army troops.
2 I don't remember how many of them there were. Perhaps 20 of them. They
3 escorted us to the Brdo village so that other inhabitants in the village
4 of Brdo could surrender. When we got to the Brdo village, we were stopped
5 by a house, the first house at the entrance of the village to Brdo, and we
6 saw HVO soldiers on the hill that was opposite us. And then a woman
7 called Zdravka Rados said: I'll now call my husband, who's on the other
8 side of Brdo. He's in the HVO.
9 She called out to Dragan Rados and the other soldiers and said
10 that we had all been arrested and that we had to go in their direction and
11 to serve as a human shield. And she said that they should surrender.
12 They had to surrender too. So she called out. She called Dragan, her
13 husband, for about five minutes. And from the opposite hill, I could see
14 that the HVO soldiers - there were six, seven, or eight of them. I don't
15 know how many. Six, I think - I saw them coming down the hill one by one,
16 and they also surrendered. They descended into the valley. They
17 surrendered, but I didn't see what happened to them after that.
18 After they had all surrendered, we were returned. We were ordered
19 to go back towards Stipe Kegelj's house, which is where we had come from.
20 We were all returned to Stipe Kegelj's house, all of us who had served as
21 a human shield, returned there.
22 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me just stop you before you continue, to clarify
23 something. The six HVO soldiers that you saw on the other side of the
24 hill, you told us they descended into the valley and that you didn't see
25 what happened after that. Did those six soldiers go with your group back
1 to Stipe Kegelj's house?
2 A. No. I only saw them come down from the hill, and they probably
3 surrendered. I know that they surrendered. But I didn't subsequently see
4 the direction they were taken away in. I know nothing about this. But
5 the people who had served as a human shield were all sent back.
6 Q. Do you know, with respect to the six HVO soldiers on the other
7 side of the hill, you said that they surrendered. Do you know to whom
8 they surrendered?
9 A. I don't know exactly who they surrendered to or how they
10 surrendered. I don't make any distinctions. I know the BH army, but I'm
11 not familiar with other units. All I know is that they surrendered. I'm
12 only familiar with the BH army insignia, but I hadn't seen any other
13 insignia at the time. So I really don't know which units participated in
14 this event.
15 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, if you remember, the
16 approximate time that you arrived back at Stipe Kegelj's house with that
17 group, after having gone up to Brdo.
18 A. Well, I think it was about 10.00 or half past 10.00. About 10.00
19 in the morning, or perhaps it was half past 11.00.
20 Q. Can you please --
21 A. Perhaps it was half past 10.00.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened once you
25 arrived back at Stipe Kegelj's house sometime between 10.00 or 10.30 in
1 the morning on the 26th of January, 1993.
2 A. We were all returned to the house. All the civilians and soldiers
3 had been placed in two rooms. They were overcrowded. I saw two to three
4 soldiers in the house who guarded us. They were members of the BH army.
5 They guarded us. And around the house, on several occasions, some
6 soldiers opened fire. They made threats. They used bursts of fire and
7 broke windows. They said all sorts of things. They then entered the
8 house, opened bursts of fire, directed at the ceiling. They made threats,
9 said all sorts of things, and so on, and then they went out again. And I
10 know that about every hour, the soldiers who were with us inside would
11 rotate. They would be replaced by other soldiers. They -- some of them
12 were courteous. Others spoke in a different manner, they behaved
13 differently. Some of them entered the house. They searched for weapons.
14 They asked us to hand over weapons. And perhaps we spent about -- perhaps
15 we remained in the house until the afternoon.
16 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me stop you there again to clarify something that
17 you've said. You told us that all the civilians and soldiers had been
18 placed in two rooms. My question is: Were the civilians and the soldiers
19 mixed together in these two rooms, or were the civilians in one room and
20 the soldiers in a different room?
21 A. We were all mixed up. The civilians and soldiers were together.
22 You could go from one room to another.
23 Q. Do you recall approximately how many civilians were in Stipe
24 Kegelj's house in total between the two rooms?
25 A. Well, I think there were between 40 and 45 of them, if you take
1 the soldiers and civilians together. That's how many of them there were
2 in the house.
3 Q. Do you recall the names of the other HVO soldiers who were in
4 Stipe Kegelj's house on the 26th of January, 1993?
5 A. I was there, Milenko Rajic, Augustin Rados, Mladen Kegelj, Stipo
6 Kegelj, Vinko Kegelj, Niko Kegelj. There was someone called Vojislav
7 Stanisic, a civilian; another civilian whose name was Franjo Kristo. And
8 the other people were women and children.
9 Q. Now, you told us a few moments ago that you remained in the house
10 until the afternoon. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened
11 on the afternoon of 26 January 1993.
12 A. The guards rotated all the time, and during that period of time, I
13 and some other soldiers - I can't remember who - on one occasion I was
14 taken outside, in front of the house, placed by the wall. They asked me
15 to tell them where our weapons were, where our PAMs and PATs were. And
16 after I had been interrogated, I was returned. On a second occasion I was
17 taken out again, maybe for about half an hour, and the questions they put
18 to me were similar. And then opposite Stipe Kegelj's house, I saw Vinko
19 Kegelj's house. I saw some soldiers who had let the livestock out, and I
20 saw five or six soldiers who opened bursts of fire directed at the pigs.
21 And then someone from that group of soldiers ran up to us. He put
22 a rifle to my head. He wanted to fire, but he didn't. We were then
23 returned, sent back into the house. And after that, I stayed in the house
24 for perhaps another half an hour.
25 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me again stop you. How many times were you taken
1 out of the house and interrogated on that afternoon, in total?
2 A. Twice in total. The third time was when they took all the men out
3 of the house. There were eight of us. The soldier Milenko Rajic wasn't
4 taken out on that occasion. And eight of us were taken out of the house
5 on the third occasion. We were then ordered to go in the direction of my
6 house, which is about four or five hundred metres from Stipo Kegelj's
7 house. We were escorted by a group of eight to ten men. Our hands were
8 raised. We had our hands behind our heads, like this. We were then taken
9 to my house.
10 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me just again briefly ask you to clarify something
11 for us. I want to return to the two occasions when you were taken out and
12 interrogated. Who interrogated you, if you know, on either of those
14 A. No, I don't remember who interrogated me. One of the soldiers,
15 perhaps one of the BH army officers. I can't remember. I can't remember
16 whether he had a rank. I can't remember which unit he belonged to. I
17 can't remember this exactly.
18 Q. You told us that you were taken to your house. Do you recall
19 approximately what time on the 26th of January, 1993 you arrived at your
20 house with the other HVOs and the ABiH escorts?
21 A. It was about 4.00 in the afternoon, between 4.00 and half past
22 4.00. All the men were then taken outside in front of the house. We were
23 lined up there. Our hands were raised. And there were soldiers who were
24 present. There were probably eight to ten of them from the BH army. They
25 were our escort and they were taken to my house, which is four or five
1 hundred metres away. The column was then stopped in the road in front of
2 my house. That road leads from Dusina towards the village of Merdani. We
3 were stopped in the road, and then one of the soldiers said that he was
4 the commander of that unit. He said that his nickname was Geler, or
5 "shrapnel." And he pointed to a glass eye that he had. He had lost an
6 eye in Croatia a year or two ago, a year or two earlier. He issued orders
7 himself. He asked us to hand over our weapons. He asked us where our
8 PAMs and PATs were. He wanted information from us. We told him that all
9 the weapons that we had had had been handed over. We told him that we
10 didn't have anything else. And he immediately ordered one of his
11 soldiers, and he singled out Augustin Rados, who was standing next to me.
12 The others were behind me. He told him to leave the column, to step out
13 of the column. And a soldier of his shot Augustin Rados at a distance of
14 two -- from a distance of two or three metres. He opened a burst of fire
15 from an automatic rifle.
16 He fell down next to me. He was dying. He was making some sort
17 of grimaces. And then I noticed that Geler ordered another burst of fire
18 to be opened to kill him so that he'd stop grimacing.
19 He then ordered the body to be removed from there immediately Two
20 soldiers - I don't remember this exactly, but I think I was ordered and
21 another person was ordered to move him. And then Geler behaved as if
22 nothing had happened. He said: If you don't admit where your weapons are
23 kept, this is what's going to happen to you.
24 Then it was probably my turn, because I was the second person in
25 the line. He also asked me about weapons, and I said that we didn't have
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 anything, apart from the rifles that we had handed over. I told him that
2 we didn't have anything else. He then punched me in the head, in the
3 stomach, in the legs. I fell down to the ground. There were some bricks
4 behind me. I fell down on them. I got up. I didn't resist. I was
5 covered in blood. There was blood covering my face. I got up. I was in
6 a state of shock. I was afraid. I couldn't think straight. I realised
7 what was going to happen to us. I realised why we had been taken there.
8 And then Geler skipped me. I remember Stipo Kegelj was next to me.
9 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me again interrupt. I apologise for that, but I
10 have a couple of questions. First of all, at the time he was shot, do you
11 know approximately how old Augustin Rados was?
12 A. Augustin Rados was born in 1964. I'm certain. He was about 28 or
13 29 years old.
14 Q. And at the time, was he a civilian or a soldier?
15 A. Yes, he was a soldier.
16 Q. Now, you've told us that you were ordered to move his body. Do
17 you remember where you were told to place that body?
18 A. As the body was on one side of the road, we were told to move it
19 to the other side of the road, since there was a bank there, and we were
20 told to move the body there so that it didn't obstruct the road.
21 Q. Now, you told us that after you moved the body, you were then
22 beaten. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you and the other
23 surrendered HVO soldiers were after this beating?
24 A. On one side of the road, where Augustin Rados had been killed,
25 since when we had moved the body to the other side of the road, as the
1 garage was on the other side of the road, Geler then ordered us to go to
2 the other side of the road so that we couldn't see Augustin Rados's body.
3 We were moved to the side where the bank was, but the garage prevented us
4 from seeing this. I was at the edge, so I was able to see the body. I
5 was closest to the body.
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where the surrendered HVOs were
7 standing in relation to the garage?
8 A. The back was facing the garage and my house, because my house was
9 behind the garage. The backs were turned to the garage, the HVO soldiers'
10 backs were turned to the garage.
11 Q. And were you part of this group of the HVO soldiers with your back
12 to your garage?
13 A. Yes. I was there. But I was the first one in line.
14 Q. Okay. Just so that we're clear, Mr. Kegelj: When you say the
15 first one in line," if you were facing the line, would you be on the left
16 or on the right of the line? Someone facing, that is, looking at the line
17 of the HVO soldiers, would you be on the right-hand side or on the
18 left-hand side?
19 A. I was the first on the left-hand side. I was the first person,
20 and to the right of me, all the other soldiers were to the right of me,
21 and the civilian or the two civilians who were there.
22 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber, if you remember, the names
23 of the other persons who were in that line with you on the afternoon of 26
24 January 1993. And, if you remember, the order that they were standing
25 next to you, to your right.
1 A. I was the first in line. Stipo Kegelj was next to me. And I
2 can't exactly remember the order. I know that -- I think Niko Kegelj was
3 there, Vinko Kegelj, Vojislav Stanisic, Pero Ljubicic, and I'm certain
4 that the last person in line was Franjo Kristo.
5 Q. Mr. Kegelj, do you know the approximate age of Niko Kegelj on that
7 A. I think Niko Kegelj was 52 or 53 years old.
8 Q. And was he a soldier or a civilian?
9 A. He was a soldier. But in the village we had soldiers who were on
10 standby. They were elderly people. Whereas the active-duty soldiers were
11 younger. The elderly people were on standby. The only difference was
12 that we would go on guard duty, but the older people didn't. They just
13 had weapons that they kept in their homes.
14 Q. And was Niko Kegelj one of the standby soldiers or was he one of
15 what you've called the active-duty soldiers?
16 A. Niko did not keep guard duty. He was on standby. He wasn't
18 Q. Mr. Kegelj, do you know the approximate age of Stipo Kegelj on the
19 26th of January, 1993?
20 A. Stipo Kegelj was born in 1930, so he was 63 years old.
21 Q. At that time, was Stipo Kegelj a soldier or a civilian?
22 A. He was a soldier, but a standby soldier.
23 Q. Mr. Kegelj, do you know approximately how old Vinko Kegelj was on
24 the 26th of January, 1993?
25 A. I think he was 50, maybe 48. I think he was born in 1948.
1 Q. Was Vinko Kegelj a soldier or a civilian?
2 A. He was a soldier, but also on standby.
3 Q. Do you recall, on the 26th of January, 1993, the approximate age
4 of Vojislav Stanisic?
5 A. I think he was about 70 years old, maybe even 71.
6 Q. At the time, was Vojislav Stanisic a soldier or a civilian?
7 A. He was a civilian.
8 Q. Do you recall the approximate age of Pero Ljubicic on the 26th of
9 January, 1993?
10 A. Pero Ljubicic, I think, was about 65 years old.
11 Q. Was he a soldier or a civilian at the time?
12 A. He was a soldier, but also on standby.
13 Q. Finally, Mr. Kegelj: Do you recall the approximate age of Franjo
14 Kristo on the 26th of January, 1993?
15 A. He was also over 60, maybe 61 or 62.
16 Q. And was Franjo Kristo a soldier or a civilian?
17 A. He was a civilian.
18 Q. Okay. Mr. Kegelj, can you please describe, to the best of your
19 recollection, what happened to the group of HVO soldiers, including
20 yourself, that were lined up with your back to your garage on the
21 afternoon of the 26th of January, 1993.
22 A. As Augustin Rados was killed, and when Geler himself beat me, some
23 five or ten minutes after that, I was -- I almost fainted. I was
24 semiconscious. Then he left me alone and passed on to Stipo Kegelj. He
25 interrogated him too, and Stipo said that we had no weapons, like the rest
1 of us. Then he ordered him to go along a path towards my house, below the
2 garage. He ordered him to take this path, and Augustin Rados's body was
3 on that path. I could see that. The man went unwillingly, slowly. And I
4 just saw a burst of fire hitting him in the back. So he fell down the
5 slope, and after that I didn't see him again.
6 Then I think there was Niko Kegelj who was next, and the same
7 happened to him. He was also killed with a burst of fire in the back. I
8 know that Geler's soldiers were joking and vying for the opportunity. And
9 when Geler ordered someone to go along that path, they kept saying: I'll
10 fix this one," or "I'll fix that one."
11 And then after Stipe, I think it was -- to the best of my
12 recollection, it was Niko Kegelj's turn, after him came Vinko Kegelj, who
13 was also questioned about weapons. And I remember well that when he asked
14 Vinko Kegelj where the weapons were, Vinko told him: If I had -- we had
15 weapons, and if I knew that they were dug 50 metres deep into the ground,
16 I would tell you. I wouldn't give you my life.
17 And then Vinko was killed in the same way, in the back, like the
18 others, with a burst of fire from an automatic rifle.
19 Then it went on like that. I think it was Vojislav Stanisic. And
20 I think Pero Ljubicic was the last one. When Franjo Kristo's turn came,
21 Franjo Kristo said: I am a civilian. I don't belong to the HVO. I'm a
22 civilian and I come from another village.
23 Then Geler said: That's enough. We won't continue.
24 And he ordered me and Franjo Kristo, who were left, he ordered us
25 to go back, under escort, to the house again.
1 Once we returned to the house, Geler took out some sort of a
2 diary, a notebook, and he wanted to interview me, if you could call it
3 that. I don't remember what he asked me and what I answered. Geler was
4 absolutely cold-blooded, as if nothing had happened. I gave him a
5 statement, and then maybe half an hour after that statement, someone
6 walked into the house, someone entered and called Geler to come outside,
7 or to the corridor in the house. He told him something, and then Geler
8 said: You two come out again.
9 Franjo and myself went out, and then he told two soldiers: Go
10 with them to remove the dead, the bodies of the dead.
11 I know that two men escorted us, and a neighbour from the village,
12 a young guy of 16 or 17. He too had a rifle. I don't remember his name,
13 but he was referred to as Pide. He volunteered. He asked Geler: Can I
14 go with them as well? And Geler said: Okay. Go along. That he should
15 be the third to escort us.
16 When --
17 Q. Mr. Kegelj, let me just stop you for one moment. On the 26th of
18 January, 1993, when you saw him, do you recall what Geler was wearing?
19 A. He wore a camouflage uniform. I didn't notice anything else in
20 particular, any insignia of rank. I don't even remember whether he had a
21 patch. Because I was out of my mind. I don't remember anything in
22 particular. I just remember that he had a glass eye, and he explained
23 this to us. Nothing else in particular. He was rather short, shorter
24 than me, maybe 1 metre, 65 in height. That's all.
25 Q. Do you remember anything Geler said to you after you returned to
1 Stipo Kegelj's house?
2 A. Yes. He said to me, to me and Franjo: If we were to say anything
3 to the civilians or anyone else, that he would have special treatment for
4 us, that he would kill us, but in the worst possible way.
5 Q. Mr. Kegelj, you mentioned the 16 or 17-year-old neighbour from
6 your village, referred to as Pide. Do you know what ethnicity Pide was?
7 A. Well, he was a Muslim. However, four or five years prior to that,
8 his mother remarried someone from that village. So he came from another
9 village, and his mother remarried someone in the village. I think it was
10 Elvid Mehmed, known as Omer. So his mother had married this man three or
11 four years prior to this. So I only know this young man's nickname, which
12 was Pide. I don't know his first or last name.
13 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened when you and
14 Franjo Kristo and Pide were taken out of Stipo Kegelj's house, where you
15 went and what you did.
16 A. I and Franjo Kristo went out, and then Geler said that two of his
17 soldiers should escort us and this Pide. So there were three soldiers
18 escorting the two of us. And he ordered us to collect the corpses and put
19 them away.
20 Q. Mr. Kegelj, when you say "the corpses," what corpses are you
21 referring to?
22 A. The bodies of the six men who had been killed, executed, half an
23 hour or an hour previously.
24 Q. You also said that you were ordered to put the corpses away.
25 Where were you told to put the corpses?
1 A. When we got there, we were ordered to put all those bodies into my
2 garage. Actually, the garage was on one floor, and then there was a kind
3 of basement of that garage. There was a narrow area inside, so that the
4 two of us put or threw those six bodies into the garage, one on top of the
5 other. And that morning, there were two HVO soldiers in front of my house
6 who were killed early in the morning, so there were six dead bodies plus
7 the other two who had been killed and who were lying in front of my
8 entrance all day. So there was a total of, all together, eight bodies in
9 my basement. Franjo and I threw eight bodies into that basement.
10 Q. What did you do after putting the bodies in the basement?
11 A. I remember that I asked neighbour Pide, while we were doing this,
12 I said: What is happening? What is going on?
13 He didn't give me an answer. And then, as I had a lot of blood on
14 my boots from the bodies, on my boots and my trousers, then one of the
15 soldiers ordered me to clean it well. All I could do was to use the snow
16 to clean the blood. And then we were turned back to Stipe Kegelj's house.
17 Q. Mr. Kegelj, approximately what time did you return to Stipe
18 Kegelj's house after moving those corpses?
19 A. I think that it was already dark by then. Around 6.00, 5.30 to
20 6.00 in the evening.
21 Q. After you returned to Stipe Kegelj's house about 5.30 or 6.00 in
22 the evening on the 26th of January, 1993, how long did you remain in the
24 A. Together with the civilians, Franjo and I stayed in the house
25 until I think around 9.00 in the evening.
1 Q. Where did you go when you left Stipe Kegelj's house that evening?
2 A. Around 9.00 in the evening, we were ordered that they had to
3 transfer us to the elementary school, or rather, we were ordered to come
4 out and, escorted by their soldiers, we didn't know where we were going.
5 We were just ordered to come out of the house and to take the route
6 towards the Muslim area. So we crossed the centre and reached halfway
7 into the Muslim part of the village, escorted by their soldiers.
8 Then I saw strong forces, I don't know how many, but a lot of
9 soldiers. It was already night-time, and they were coming back from the
10 village of Dusina. They were in the Muslim part of the village and along
11 the whole road, units were lined up, moving towards Lasva. I don't
12 remember how many there were. I know that there were three of us then,
13 me, Franjo Kristo, and Milenko Rajic. Milenko Rajic, throughout that
14 period, was in the house with the civilians. So the three of us were
15 handed over to a unit - I don't remember which - to escort us or to take
16 us with them in the direction of Lasva. They tied us up then with our
17 hands behind our backs, with some sort of rope, and, escorted by this
18 unit, I know that Milenko Rajic was up front; behind him, a BH army
19 soldier; then me; then behind me, another soldier; then Franjo Kristo and
20 another soldier. And we formed such a line and we went in that line to
21 Lasva, which is about three kilometres away along that road.
22 Q. When the three of you, that is, Franjo Kristo, Milenko Rajic, and
23 yourself - left Stipo Kegelj's house, where were the civilians?
24 A. I don't know anything about the civilians. When we left, they
25 stayed behind in the house, so I don't know anything. I saw those
1 civilians again. Actually, we were taken up to the school. We were
2 untied in front of the school. We entered the school. In one classroom,
3 I saw HVO soldiers from Visnjica and Lasva. All the soldiers who were
4 captured that day, I saw them in one classroom. They were all HVO
5 soldiers who were in one classroom in Lasva. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes
6 later, since my wife wanted to see me, I didn't know anything about the
7 civilians, and then they allowed me to come out for about ten minutes to
8 another classroom to see my wife. I saw my wife and my children and my
9 mother, and all the other civilians who were also escorted to the school
10 after us. They were in another classroom in the elementary school in
12 Just then, after spending about 15 minutes with my wife, none of
13 the civilians knew anything, so I told my wife about everything that had
14 happened, and I said: You should know, because I didn't know what would
15 happen to me, whether I would survive or not, and I told my wife
17 Q. Mr. Kegelj, do you recall approximately what time it was that you
18 arrived at the Lasva elementary school on the evening of the 26th of
19 January, 1993?
20 A. I think it was about 10.00.
21 Q. You told the Trial Chamber that you were in a room with other HVO
22 soldiers. Do you recall approximately how many HVO soldiers were in that
24 A. I think I know exactly. There were 26 of them. Because all HVO
25 soldiers from that classroom were then escorted to the KP Dom in Zenica. I
1 think there was a total of 26 of us.
2 Q. How long did the 26 HVO soldiers remain in the Lasva elementary
3 school on that evening?
4 A. I think it was from 10.00 until 1.00 a.m., and I think at about
5 1.00 a.m., a special police unit from Zenica arrived, as far as I know,
6 some 30 of them, they came to fetch us and one by one, we came out of the
7 classroom. They escorted us. There were about 30 of them. They came
8 with a bus. The bus was at the railway station, and the distance from the
9 school to the railway station is about 700 or 600 metres. And escorted by
10 them, we went to the bus. And along the way, they beat us a lot, in the
11 back, in the stomach, all over, along that route, for some 20 minutes or
13 And I know that as we climbed onto the bus one by one, we were
14 ordered to sit down on one side of the bus only, on the left-hand side,
15 whereas the right-hand side was empty. Then they ordered one of the
16 soldiers, Zeljko Cvijanovic, an HVO soldier, to come out. I don't
17 remember what happened. I couldn't see what was going on outside. It was
18 dark. I think they beat him for 10 to 15 minutes. Then they shoved him
19 back in. So he lay on the floor of the bus. He couldn't get up.
20 Then the trip from Lasva to Zenica, it's a distance of some 16 or
21 17 kilometres, and throughout that journey, this special police, some 30
22 of them, or 25, we had to bend our heads down, as low as we could, so that
23 we wouldn't see who was beating us.
24 Throughout the trip to Zenica, we were beaten. I received most
25 blows to the back of my head then.
1 Q. Mr. Kegelj, while you were on the bus, were you informed as to
2 where you were going?
3 A. They told us that they were taking us to Zenica, but all the time
4 they were saying: You are going to the music school. That is what they
5 kept repeating. As far as I can recollect, the driver of the bus was a
6 Croat, and they cursed him, his -- and they ordered him to drive as slowly
7 as possible. They kept saying that they would take us to the music
8 school. They repeated this many times. I don't remember who ordered
9 what, or when, but in any case, we reached the KP Dom by bus. We didn't
10 go to the music school, but to the correctional penitentiary institution.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave, I have about two more
12 questions for the witness and then that would complete the direct
14 Q. Mr. Kegelj, approximately what time did you arrive at the Zenica
15 KP Dom?
16 A. I think it was after midnight, maybe 2.00 or 2.30 a.m. I didn't
17 have a watch on me, so I can't tell you exactly.
18 Q. And I take it that would be on the 27th of January, 1993.
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. My final question for you, Mr. Kegelj: You told us that three of
21 the people who were shot outside your garage were Vinko Kegelj, Niko
22 Kegelj, and Stipo Kegelj. Were those three individuals related to you;
23 and if so, how were they related to you?
24 A. Yes. Stipo Kegelj is my uncle. Niko Kegelj is my uncle, and
25 Vinko Kegelj is my uncle. All three are my uncles.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. Kegelj.
2 The Prosecution has no further questions on direct examination,
3 Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In view of the time,
5 unfortunately, Witness, you will have to come back tomorrow morning. I
6 know that you have been here for some time, but unless the Defence has no
7 questions --
8 Has the Defence questions? I assume you have.
9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have a brief
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So because the Defence has some
12 questions for you, I will ask you to come back tomorrow morning. You will
13 go to your hotel now and you will appear in the morning, which will be at
14 9.00, when we will see you again, tomorrow morning at 9.00.
15 I will ask Madam Usher to accompany you out of the courtroom now.
16 Before that -- just a moment, please. Sit down. Put your headphones on,
17 please. The Chamber wishes to thank you for the effort that you have made
18 to answer the questions, and we hope you will rest well overnight, so as
19 to be able to answer questions from the Defence tomorrow. So I bid you
20 good night and a pleasant evening.
21 I ask the usher to accompany you outside the courtroom.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, the time being 5 past
24 after our normal adjournment, I invite the parties to come back tomorrow
25 morning, when we will begin at 9.00 a.m., and we have two witnesses
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 planned for tomorrow.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, the third may
4 have to be postponed for Wednesday, but we'll see anyway.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of March
7 2004, at 9.00.