1 Monday, 15 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 [The accused Kubura not present]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, would you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
9 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 May I have the appearances, please, for the Prosecution first.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
13 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, and the
14 case manager, Ruth Karper.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.
17 Good afternoon, Your Honours. For the Defence of General Enver
18 Hadzihasanovic, myself, Edina Residovic, lead counsel; Stephane Bourgon,
19 co-counsel; Mirna Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 For the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Mr. Ibrisimovic, and
22 Mr. Mulalic. Also on behalf of the accused Kubura, I should like to
23 thank the Court and the Trial Chamber and my colleagues from the
24 Prosecution, and especially the staff of the registrar, who put in a
25 great deal of time to allow the accused to attend his mother's funeral.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 This afternoon's hearing has commenced. The Chamber would like
3 to greet all those present, Mr. Withopf and Mr. Mundis of the OTP, the
4 Defence counsels and the accused, and General Kubura actually will be
5 arriving shortly, because he had the death of his mother that overtook
6 him and he was authorised to attend the funeral of his mother. And that
7 is the reason why he is not in court today. But I hope that he will be
8 here tomorrow. And in keeping with the proceedings and Rules, he will be
9 represented by his Defence counsel and they will inform him of today's
11 Today we have a video conference lined up and two witnesses for
12 it. But I should first of all like to give the floor to Mr. Withopf, and
13 I think we can go into private session for that.
14 Mr. Registrar, may be go into private session, please.
15 [Private session]
12 Pages 4348 4357 redacted, private session
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. ZK, would it be correct to say that the relations between the
20 Croat and Muslim neighbours before the conflict in 1993 were very good?
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. Immediately after the attack on Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992,
24 the attack that was carried out by the JNA and the Serbian Armed Forces,
25 immediately after that attack the Muslims and the Croats from your
1 village fought together; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. The Serbian forces were positioned above your village on the
4 Vlasic Mountain, and at the end of May and the beginning of June 1992
5 they shelled Maljine; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In the course of 1992, the Muslims and the Croats held the lines
8 facing the Serbian forces on Mount Vlasic. They were together. Is that
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Mr. ZK, would it be correct to say that the Muslim soldiers or
12 members of the BH army, in order to reach their positions on Vlasic,
13 passed through the Croatian part of the village, as that was the shortest
14 route to the positions facing the Serbian forces? Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. ZK, you weren't an HVO member but you do know that men who
17 were fit for military service were HVO members. They were members of the
18 Frankopan Brigade, whose headquarters were in Guca Gora. Isn't that
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Mr. ZK, would it be correct to say that in April 1993, the men
22 from your village who were HVO members stopped going to the lines on
23 Vlasic and guards were organised and defence around the village in the
24 direction of places where the BH army was? Is that correct?
25 A. Well, on Vlasic, some remained. They were together, and they
1 then withdrew gradually, as far as I know.
2 Q. Very well. Would it be correct to say that the person who
3 organised the defence of your village was Bozo Djakovic? He was the main
4 person in charge.
5 A. There were a number of persons. There was Bozo and there was
6 Stanko Juric.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go into private
9 session again, as I want the ask the witness a number of questions that
10 could reveal his identity.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,
13 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. ZK, would it be correct to say that the intensive fighting in
13 your village started early on the 8th of June, 1993?
14 A. Yes, they started -- the fighting started at 3.30. They first
15 started shelling.
16 Q. At that point in time -- I apologise. I'll rephrase that
17 question. I'll ask you this question in private session.
18 But there is another question I would like to put to you now:
19 Would it be correct to say that the HVO lines, which had previously been
20 established facing the BH army lines, were soon penetrated and HVO
21 soldiers withdrew in the direction of the village and some of them also
22 went towards the clinic? Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now go back into private
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go back into private
3 [Private session]
12 Pages 4363 to 4370 redacted, private session
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we're now in open session.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're continuing the
17 proceedings, and I turn towards the Prosecution to hear about the second
19 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, since I'm going to
20 apply for protective measures for the second witness, could we please go
21 into private session again.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Private session, please,
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 [Private session]
12 Pages 4372 to 4383 redacted, private session
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
21 MR. WITHOPF:
22 Q. Witness ZL, do you still recall the 8th of June, 1993?
23 A. I do. I went to the village. This happened in the morning.
24 They captured us. This is what happened. I was in prison.
25 Q. Witness ZL, let's go step by step. What happened in the morning
1 of the 8th of June, 1993? What happened to you and what happened to
2 Maljine, if anything?
3 A. Well, there was an attack, a fierce attack. We were captured and
4 then taken to prison in the direction of Mehurici. As we were going
5 towards Mehurici, there was a group and they separated the young people
6 and sent them back.
7 Q. Very well, Witness ZL. Let's first address the attack on the 8th
8 of June, 1993. Who was attacking -- which army was attacking the village
9 of Maljine?
10 A. The Muslim one.
11 Q. Witness ZL, what actually did you notice once the Muslim army
12 attacked the village of Maljine?
13 A. Well, I saw shooting. They shouted out. They went to the
14 village. We were in shelters. They told us to surrender. We
15 surrendered. And they captured us.
16 Q. Again, Witness ZL, let's go step by step. Once the Muslim army
17 attacked the village of Maljine, did you see any houses burning?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber whose houses you have
20 seen burning.
21 A. Juric's house, in the hamlet of Vranjaca.
22 Q. And, Witness ZL, did you see any other houses burning?
23 A. Yes. Up where an artillery shell fell, in Maljine, Medukic's
25 Q. And to your recollection, were there any further houses you've
1 seen burning?
2 A. I saw stables burning, two of them, Stipo Djakovic and Kramar's
4 Q. And do you recall or have you seen who made the houses and the
5 stables burning?
6 A. I don't know who the troops were. It was the Muslims. It wasn't
8 Q. Just for clarification, Witness ZL, was it the Muslim army which
9 made the houses in Maljine burning?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. What did happen, to your recollection, Witness ZL, to your own
13 A. One of my houses burnt down and my stables. When they took us to
14 Mehurici, I saw that too. My brother's house burnt down and his stables.
15 Tavic Smilja's house was on fire. Marko Juric's and Drago Juric's
16 houses, they both burnt down. Vuric Sprana's [phoen] house burnt down.
17 Kate Saric's house burnt down. They were all in flames at that morning.
18 Q. Witness ZL, at the time you were taken to Mehurici - and we will
19 address this later on - but at the time you were taken to Mehurici, was
20 there still firing ongoing?
21 A. Yes, there was.
22 Q. Prior to having been taken to Mehurici on the 8th of June, 1993,
23 Witness ZL, did you have an opportunity to go back to your own house?
24 A. Yes, I did. As we weren't in one shelter - we were kept in two
25 or three shelters - in one shelter, some people were captured. I heard
1 that a relative of mine was looking for her daughter. I didn't know
2 about this. But when they captured me, I asked if I could go home to see
3 whether the girl was down there. A commander turned up. A soldier went
4 down with me. When we got there, there were soldiers on the floors
5 looking for things, and things were outside on the road. I saw that the
6 girl wasn't there. I then returned and set off in the direction of
7 Mehurici again.
8 Q. Witness ZL, what were the things about that were outside on the
10 A. There was the bicycle, there was coffee, there was tobacco, there
11 were -- there was a device. There was flour. There were various things.
12 They took what they could carry. They couldn't carry the bed.
13 Q. And who were the owners of the items you just detailed?
14 A. Mine. It was my property, taken out of my house.
15 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber who took your
16 property out of your house.
17 A. Well, the Muslim troops. We found two soldiers in the house.
18 They were searching in the house, looking for things and taking things
20 Q. Have you, Witness ZL, have you yourself seen the Muslim soldiers
21 taking your things out of your house?
22 A. Well, yes, I did, as I went there with this commander of theirs.
23 You could hear a noise on the floor. Two young men came out. He asked
24 them what they were doing. They said they were look for something. And
25 he didn't tell them anything else. They returned. I had a look around.
1 There was nothing I could do.
2 Q. Did you ever get your things back?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. The commander of the Muslim army you were just referring to, did
5 he give you some explanation where he came from?
6 A. From Krajina.
7 Q. And did he give you some further information in respect to the
8 fact that he came from Krajina?
9 A. No. He said, "Don't worry. Nothing will happen to you." I then
10 left him and went off with the others.
11 Q. Earlier on, Witness ZL, you were already mentioning that you were
12 taken to Mehurici. How did it happen that you were taken to Mehurici?
13 A. I just said. One group went off before me. When I returned to
14 my house, we were gathered - there were quite a few of us - and we were
15 then driven off towards Mehurici, down the road towards Mehurici. As we
16 were going towards Mehurici, we came across a group of HVO troops and
17 they sent them back. There were two or three young men. There were sick
18 men. They hadn't served in the army. They then separated us. One of
19 them was a young man. He went to school and his father said, "Don't
20 touch him. He doesn't know anything about all of this." And then they
21 sent him off, too. And they were all shot up there.
22 Q. Again, Witness ZL, let's go step by step. Did you volunteer to
23 go to Mehurici?
24 A. No, I didn't volunteer. Why would I volunteer? I was forced to
1 Q. And, Witness ZL, who did force you to go to Mehurici?
2 A. Well, the Muslim army. They didn't let anyone remain on.
3 Q. How many of you were forced by the Muslim army to go to Mehurici?
4 A. The whole group. There were 257 of us in a hall.
5 Q. And these 257 individuals, what was their ethnic background?
6 A. They were just Croats, all of them.
7 Q. And the 257 Croats, were they soldiers or were they civilians or
8 a mixture of both?
9 A. They were all civilians. The ones who were there in prison were
10 all civilians. And the others that they took back, they were soldiers
11 and they surrendered. And the others were taken to Bikosi and shot.
12 Q. What was the time, Witness ZL, when you left for Mehurici -- when
13 you left Maljine for Mehurici on the 8th of June, 1993?
14 A. Well, I didn't look at my watch. It might have been 9.00 or
16 Q. Was it 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning?
17 A. Yes, in the morning. Yes.
18 Q. Prior to leaving Maljine, Witness ZL, did you have a look back to
19 the village of Maljine?
20 A. Yes, I did, before I'd crossed. When you cross, you can't see
21 Maljine any more.
22 Q. And to your recollection, Witness ZL, what did you see?
23 A. When do you mean?
24 Q. Prior to leaving to Mehurici.
25 A. Well, that's what I saw. They said, "Surrender." They shouted
1 out "surrender" to us, and that's what happened. We surrendered.
2 Q. At the time you left for Mehurici, Witness ZL, did you see houses
3 burning in Maljine?
4 A. I've just said. Until we got to Greda, we could. But once we'd
5 crossed Greda, we couldn't. It's the -- we were the other side of Greda,
6 and you couldn't see Maljine any more. We left them behind, behind our
8 Q. Just for clarification, Witness ZL, whom did you leave behind?
9 A. Where do you mean?
10 Q. You just said, Witness ZL, "We left them behind, behind our
11 backs." Whom did you leave behind?
12 A. No. When we crossed the other side of Greda or the rock, you
13 couldn't see our village any more. So the other side of Greda.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: We're not quite sure what
15 "Greda" means.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then after us, there was this
17 third group that had been captured.
18 MR. WITHOPF:
19 Q. Earlier on, Witness ZL, you were mentioning that whilst you were
20 walking to Mehurici you were stopped. Can you please provide us with
21 some more detail, what actually did happen.
22 A. We were stopped because they took the young people away. And
23 there were some people who were masked. And that's why we were held up
24 there, while this separation was taking place.
25 Q. The ones who stopped you and the ones who did the separation,
1 Witness ZL, were they soldiers or civilians?
2 A. Soldiers.
3 Q. And to what army, to your recollection, did they belong to?
4 A. The Muslim one. I don't know. I didn't follow ranks and stuff.
5 I was beside myself. I was wondering what was going to happen to me.
6 Q. The members of the Muslim army who were doing the separation,
7 were they local Muslims or were they foreign Muslims?
8 A. Well, you couldn't see who they were because they had masks on
9 their faces, so you couldn't tell whether they were locals or what. The
10 foreigners, the Arabs, didn't wear masks, whereas the local ones had
11 masks. And so I'm sure they were local people because they had masks on
12 their faces.
13 Q. Just for clarification, Witness ZL, does this, what you just
14 said, mean there were local soldiers of the Muslim army together with
15 foreign soldiers of the Muslim army?
16 A. Yes. Yes, the Mujahedin were with them too.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have an objection to this line
18 of questioning on the part of my learned colleague, because the witness
19 on several occasions when asked repeatedly said, "How do I know who they
20 are? I wasn't able to recognise them. They were probably," et cetera,
21 et cetera, "probably locals."
22 Now, the Prosecutor, despite answers of that kind, repeats his
23 question and says that the witness recognised members of the Muslim army
24 among the group, whereas the witness at no point in time gave an answer
25 to that effect. So there were several questions along those lines. They
1 were leading questions and did not follow on from the answers given by
2 the witness previously.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.
4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, I can't see any
5 leading questions. I actually went step by step asking the witness a
6 series of questions, and I asked him a number of questions for
7 clarification and the witness was able to answer to such questions. He
8 answered that he and his group were stopped by the Muslim army. And he
9 also answered that both local members of the Muslim army - and I am
10 emphasising that I'm using the words of the witness - of the Muslim army
11 and foreigners stopped them and did the separation.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This isn't the first time
13 that there has been a difference of views between the Prosecution and
14 Defence according to the extent to which questions are leading or not.
15 Now, in order to avoid this type of problem in future, we should
16 ask the witness to describe what he actually saw, and then the
17 description provided by the witness would help us avoid jumping to
18 conclusions and seeing what he's going to say. So either he
19 distinguished between the members of these soldiers or not. It's very
20 easy to lead him on, whereas the witness in fact does not say anything.
21 So, Mr. Withopf, give great thought and skill to the way you're
22 going to ask your questions so that the witness can answer for himself.
23 Having said that, please continue.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.
25 Q. Witness ZL, you were just informing the Trial Chamber that
1 individuals from your group were singled out. Do you still recall who
2 was singled out?
3 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. Two or three young guys.
4 Otherwise, you wouldn't allowed to look. You weren't allowed to look
5 around. Tavic Jakov and Pranjes Zdravko, I saw them. Kramar as well,
6 Mijo and Volic Ivo. That's what I saw. I know about them. But I didn't
7 -- I don't know about the others.
8 Q. And, Witness ZL, who singled these individuals you just mentioned
10 A. Well, the Muslims singled them out. The army, their army.
11 Q. After they were singled out, Witness ZL, what did happen to you?
12 Where did you go to, if anywhere?
13 A. Mehurici, the prison.
14 Q. What was the time when you arrived in Mehurici?
15 A. About 11.00 or 12.00.
16 Q. 11.00 or 12.00 in the morning?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Witness ZL, how far is Mehurici from Maljine?
19 A. About 3 or 4 kilometres.
20 Q. Where to in Mehurici, Witness ZL, were you brought to?
21 A. They took us to the sports hall and shut us up there. They held
22 us there in custody for 17 days.
23 Q. Who actually escorted you from Maljine to Mehurici?
24 A. Well, that same army, the Muslim one.
25 Q. And who brought you to the elementary school in Mehurici?
1 A. The same army, soldiers.
2 Q. You were just informing the Trial Chamber, Witness ZL, that you
3 were detained in the Mehurici Elementary School. Do you still recall in
4 which area of the school you were detained?
5 A. There's a hall there, a school hall. That's where.
6 Q. The school hall. Can you please be a bit more precise. For what
7 purpose has the school hall used prior to being used as a detention
9 A. Well, it was for the schoolchildren. It was -- they played their
10 sports there inside. It was a sports hall.
11 Q. For how long your detained in the sports hall of the Mehurici
12 Elementary School?
13 A. From the 8th of June to the 24th of June; 17 days.
14 Q. And how many people were together with you detained in the sports
15 hall of the Mehurici Elementary School?
16 A. 275, women, children and men.
17 Q. Where did these 275 women, children and men come from, to your
19 A. From Maljine. There were some of them from other villages too,
20 but most of them were from Maljine.
21 Q. Whilst you were detained together with the 275 other people in
22 the Mehurici Elementary School, were you guarded?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you recall whether you were guarded by civilians or by
1 A. Soldiers.
2 Q. And soldiers of which army?
3 A. The Muslim army.
4 Q. Whilst you were detained in the Mehurici Elementary School, were
5 there also foreign Muslims around?
6 A. With us, you mean? You mean with us in the prison?
7 Q. Have you seen -- to make it easier for you, Witness ZL, have you
8 seen any foreign Muslims whilst you were detained in the Mehurici
9 Elementary School?
10 A. Yes. The Mujahedin.
11 Q. Do you recall, Witness ZL, when you were exchanged?
12 A. On the 24th of June.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, can we please again go
14 into private session.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us move into
16 private session, please, Mr. Registrar.
17 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Witness ZL.
6 Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes the
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Let me turn towards the Defence teams for the cross-examination.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. ZL. Can you hear me?
13 A. Yes, I can.
14 Q. Can you hear me and can you see me?
15 Sir, I'm going to address you with the letters "ZL" because that
16 is your protective name. Can you hear me now?
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. Good afternoon. My name is Edina Residovic, and I am the Defence
19 counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. I should like to ask you to answer
20 some of my questions now, please.
21 First of all, for us to keep your identity protected, may we go
22 into private session for me to be able to ask the witness some
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,
1 [Private session]
12 Pages 4398 redacted, private session
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. ZL, you knew that for some time already there were village
5 watches being set up around the village; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. That morning, the 8th of June, early in the morning you first
8 heard shots from artillery weapons, and soon after that you could hear
9 infantry weapons too; is that right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. From the spot you were at, you could notice that due to shelling
12 or incendiary bullets several houses and sheds began to burn; is that
14 A. Not all the sheds and houses. Just one shed and one house.
15 Q. However, from the place you were at that morning, you were not
16 able to see a single individual, anybody entering into somebody's house
17 and planting a fire there.
18 A. No, I couldn't see that. No.
19 Q. At the beginning, you could see that the hamlet of Vranjaca was
20 set on fire, that the houses there were the ones that were burning, and
21 Vranjaca is a hamlet of Gornje Maljine, in fact. It was where the front
22 line was formed, facing the first part of Donje Maljine. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. That part of Maljine was attacked first, both with artillery and
25 infantry weapons; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. However, the HVO lines were broken through very quickly, and some
3 of the HVO soldiers managed to get through to the village; whereas the
4 other portion went to the improvised field clinic set up. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You and your neighbours surrendered, and then the BH army
7 soldiers started to form groups and told you that they would take you
8 towards Mehurici; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. At that point in time --
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could we now go
12 into private session.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, private session,
15 [Private session]
12 Pages 4403 to 4407 redacted, private session
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you raise
11 the blinds now.
12 According to the schedule that we have been provided with, we
13 will be hearing two other witnesses via videolink tomorrow. Is that
14 correct? Apparently no special measures have been requested.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, it's correct that we
17 have two further videolink witnesses for tomorrow. Our colleague is
18 still proofing the two videolink witnesses for tomorrow; therefore, we
19 are not yet in a position to indicate as to whether there will be an
20 application for protective measures or not.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Does the Defence have any other issues to raise at this point in
24 Mr. Bourgon, you may take the floor.
25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Since we
1 have a little time, with the Trial Chamber's leave, there are three
2 issues we would like to raise at this point in time.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 The first issue concerns the order, the decision of the Chamber
6 that relates to the consolidated exhibit list that we have received from
7 the Prosecution, dated the 10th of March. According to the order
8 rendered by the Trial Chamber, we have to provide our response with
9 regard to the admissibility of each document. This should be on the 25th
10 of March. We have started working on this. We've been doing so for a
11 while. We have asked the Prosecution to provide us with an electronic
12 list, and we are still waiting to receive this. We should be receiving
13 it in a few days' time.
14 Having said that, Mr. President, we would like to be granted
15 additional time in order to finish our work and in order to be able to
16 provide our response to the Trial Chamber on the 29th rather than on the
17 25th. This will enable us to work in a better way and to have full
18 responses for each document concerned.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll grant the
20 Defence's request. You will have until Monday the 29th to state your
22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 The second issue that we would like to raise this afternoon has
24 to do with the documents that we have obtained from the Monitoring
25 Mission of the European Community. As you are aware, Mr. President, we
1 have gained access to the documents contained in the archives in
2 Sarajevo. In the course of the last two weeks, our legal assistants have
3 been able to examine all the documents kept in Sarajevo. We have now
4 received copies of these documents. To be more precise, Mr. President,
5 we have received copies of 846 documents which have been selected on the
6 basis of criteria contained in Annex B of our initial request, our
7 initial request for an order issued by the Trial Chamber.
8 The problem at the moment, Mr. President, is that out of the 846
9 documents, it appears that a number of the documents are still missing.
10 As an example, Mr. President, we recently verified certain matters and
11 there are documents that we have received from the Prosecution, and these
12 documents aren't contained in the ones that we have obtained in Sarajevo
13 and the Monitoring Mission in 1993 should have a complete archives there.
14 We're trying to establish why there is a difference in these two lists.
15 We have informed the representatives of the Prosecution of our concern,
16 and we have asked them if they could provide us with a list of the
17 documents that they have -- not of the contents of the documents, but a
18 list that would mention the date of the documents, the source of the
19 documents, and the person to which the document was addressed. This
20 would allow us to determine which documents we don't have, and that would
21 ensure equality of arms. And my colleague has told me that this is not
22 possible at the moment because he first has to ask for permission from
23 the Monitoring Mission, since this is material that they obtained
24 pursuant to Rule 70 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
25 So the Defence would now like to inform you that we're going to
1 work on this and try to obtain this authorisation from the European Union
2 Monitoring Mission in Sarajevo in order to be certain that we have the
3 documents; that is to say, that we have the same documents that the
4 Prosecution has, in order to ensure equality of arms when the
5 international experts are called to testify before this Trial Chamber.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 In order to summarise what you have just said, your
8 collaborators, your assistants have gained access to the archives and in
9 accordance with the criteria established under Annex B, they have
10 compiled a list of 846 documents. Having examined this list, you realise
11 that certain documents were missing and you found out that among the 846
12 documents there were some documents that the Prosecution had provided you
13 with and you were surprised to see that these archives, which are
14 supposed to contain all the documents, didn't contain all the documents.
15 You were wondering how the Prosecution had documents that weren't in the
16 archives. Is that what you are actually telling us?
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes. Naturally, Mr. President, in
18 confirmation of what we have stated, we have obtained a letter from the
19 Monitoring Mission in Sarajevo, according to which they confirm that --
20 sorry, it's not 846 but 859 documents. These are the only documents
21 contained in the Monitoring Mission archives in Sarajevo at the moment.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now turn to
23 Mr. Withopf. You have carefully followed what has just been said. It
24 appears that you are in possession of certain documents, the source of
25 which is unknown. But in any event, these documents aren't included
1 among the 859 documents mentioned. This is the problem we are facing.
2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, of course the
3 Prosecution has in that instance no explanation why ECMM doesn't have the
4 documents they may have provided the Prosecution with earlier on. There
5 may be an explanation to the extent that the Prosecution not only got
6 ECMM documents from the ECMM but also from witnesses.
7 In respect to the issue which has already been addressed by
8 learned friend from the Defence, the Prosecution is certainly prepared to
9 contact ECMM and to try to get their permission to disclose the different
10 dates, sources, and individuals or institutions to whom such documents
11 have been addressed to; however, as the Chamber is certainly very well
12 aware of, all ECMM documents have been provided by ECMM on the basis of
13 Rule 70. That implies that the Prosecution has first to ask permission
14 by the ECMM to disclose the respective data.
15 In that respect, I wish to use the opportunity to inform both The
16 Chamber and Defence counsel that, as a result of the prioritised ISU
17 searches by the Prosecution, a number of potentially Rule 68 documents
18 have been found and such documents stem from ECMM. The Prosecution has
19 asked permission by ECMM to disclose such documents to the Defence under
20 Rule 68, and the deadline has been sent to ECMM. And the deadline is the
21 25th of March, 2004.
22 In respect to the other issue - namely, the consolidated exhibit
23 list - the Prosecution is prepared to provide Defence tomorrow with an
24 electronic version of the exhibit list in order to facilitate the work of
25 the Defence in that respect.
1 If I may please take the opportunity, Mr. President, Your
2 Honours, to raise a further issue; namely, the issue of the testimony and
3 the scheduling of the Prosecution's military expert. I have contacted
4 General Reinhardt, and the situation is the following: General Reinhardt
5 would be available for testimony to testify between Thursday, the 29th of
6 April and Friday, the 7th of May inclusive. Friday, the 30th of April,
7 however, is a UN holiday. Therefore, the Prosecution suggests - and we
8 already discussed this with Defence, which are well prepared to support
9 the Prosecution suggestions - to make the General available from Monday,
10 the 3rd of May until Friday, the 7th of May inclusive. Anticipating and
11 taking into account the duration of the cross-examination as indicated by
12 our learned friends from the Defence, the Prosecution would suggest to
13 think about, if necessary, to have prolonged court sessions towards the
14 end of this week to accommodate, if necessary, the full testimony of
15 General Reinhardt, the Prosecution's military expert. Thank you very
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. With regard to the last
18 issue addressed - but I'll refer to the documents in a minute - he could
19 start testifying on Monday, the 3rd of May. I don't know whether we will
20 be sitting in the morning or the afternoon of that week. We will check
21 that. If we will be sitting in the morning, we'll start at 9.00 and then
22 we could continue in the afternoon on Tuesday and Wednesday, in order to
23 make sure that we have enough time on Friday. We'll discuss this and
24 with the registrar we'll see if we can schedule the hearings so that on
25 Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday we work continually so that we have more
1 time available on Friday. That's what I want to say about the schedule.
2 I'll now go back to the issue of the documents. Naturally, the
3 Trial Chamber has noted that the Prosecution will take this up with
4 representatives of the European Union to see which documents can be
5 provided. And naturally the Defence will be following this closely. If
6 any difficulties arise, naturally you will inform the Trial Chamber of
7 this. As far as equality of arms is concerned, it's quite natural that
8 the Prosecution and the Defence should have equal access to documents.
9 That's obvious.
10 There is a third issue that you wanted to raise?
11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With
12 regard to the third issue, I'll be very brief. The Defence has a
13 translator/interpreter at its disposal which was assigned to the team.
14 The translator/interpreter - it is a lady - she is involved in two
15 matters. She enables the accused to communicate with people who don't
16 speak B/C/S, to co-counsels, for example. And they also make it possible
17 -- she also makes it possible for the accused to see certain documents
18 translated into their own language. This enables them to follow the
19 proceedings. The interpreter, when we need documents at the eleventh
20 hour that have to be translated for the cross-examination, in such cases
21 the interpreter also assists us.
22 Mr. President, this is something that might be appearing in a
23 request by the Defence. We were informed last week by the Registry that
24 the resources won't be allocated to us to pay for this service. The
25 Registry says that the resources for such a service should be deducted
1 from the sum that we are already allocated. So there is a
2 misunderstanding, as far as this subject is concerned, and we have
3 addressed this matter in a letter to the Registry today. We are still
4 working with this person since we need her services. This won't cause
5 any disruptions. We'll still be in a position to continue with our work.
6 Nevertheless, if the Registry's response is confirmed, we will then raise
7 this issue, as you said we ought to do, in a motion filed with the Trial
8 Chamber. Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that it's
10 necessary to adjourn now, given the break. As we have addressed these
11 issues -- all these issues, we will now adjourn. We will resume tomorrow
12 at 9.00. I would like to point out that --
13 Yes, Mr. Dixon.
14 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, just one matter which we could deal with
15 very quickly, and it's got to do with admissibility of certain documents
16 from a witness that was called sometime ago. It was in relation to two
17 decisions from the Bosnian courts, one from the cantonal court in Zenica
18 and one from the Supreme Court. Your Honours requested that the
19 documents, which were in B/C/S, be translated in full and not only
20 portions of the document be translated. And we have those translations
21 now. And I would request Your Honours to accept these documents now as
22 full translations of those two decisions. The two documents are DK7,
23 which was marked for identification, and DK8, which was marked for
24 identification. And our request would be that these translations replace
25 the existing documents and that they be admitted into evidence as
1 exhibits. At the time, there was no objection from the Prosecution
2 regarding these documents. I have, Your Honour, copies for Your Honours
3 and everyone else in the courtroom.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, with respect to
5 those documents, no objection?
6 MR. WITHOPF: Completely correct, Mr. President. The Prosecution
7 has no objection against tendering these documents. It's just a
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have marked them
10 for identification, but we'll have a definite number in due course. The
11 translation in English corresponds to the B/C/S text. May we have a
12 final number, Mr. Registrar, then.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, then the final numbers will be DK7
14 for the B/C/S version and DK7/E for the English translation; and DK8 for
15 the B/C/S version and DK8/E for the B/C/S translation -- sorry, for the
16 English translation.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. There was just
18 one document -- ah, two cassettes. The second was already translated; is
19 that right? Where is the second one? Because what we actually have is
20 this: A judgement, which has been translated --
21 Mr. Dixon, could you be of assistance?
22 MR. DIXON: There are two decisions that have been translated.
23 The first decision is from the cantonal court. And the second decision,
24 which Your Honour should have, is from the Supreme Court. The first is
25 DK7 and the second is DK8.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, yes. The mistake arose
2 from the fact that the registrar just gave us one. But you're right; we
3 have two documents. Now, Mr. Registrar, since you were the author --
4 anyway, give us the numbers again.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the B/C/S version of the judgement
6 of the cantonal court gets exhibit number DK7, and the English
7 translation of this judgement gets exhibit number DK7/E. Then the ruling
8 of the Supreme Court of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina gets the
9 exhibit number DK8, and the English translation gets the exhibit number
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Mr. Withopf, and that will be the last speaker for today.
13 MR. WITHOPF: Right. And it will be very short. We just were
14 informed, Mr. President, Your Honours, that the two witnesses who are
15 scheduled for tomorrow won't ask for any protective measures.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 I thank you one and all, and we reconvene tomorrow morning at
18 9.00. The meeting is adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.49 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of
21 March, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.