Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4649

1 Friday, 19 March 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Registrar call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please, though

11 we know one another very well by now.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, good morning, Your Honours.

13 For the Prosecution, myself, Daryl Mundis, and myself, Tecla Benjamin, and

14 the case manager, Ruth Karper.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Benjamin.

16 And now the attorneys that we know very well.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

18 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic: Edina

19 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna Milanovic, the

20 legal assistant.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the

22 appearances for the other Defence team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic,

25 the legal assistant.

Page 4650

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber wishes

2 to greet all those present, representatives of the Prosecution, Defence,

3 as well as all the staff in this courtroom.

4 We have on the programme for today two witnesses. Madam Benjamin

5 or Mr. Mundis, could you tell us the order in which your witnesses will be

6 appearing.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. The

8 first witness will be Ivan Bohutinski. The second witness is as

9 scheduled, and the Prosecution will be making an application for

10 protective measures with respect to that witness.

11 Mr. President, also, if I may, while I'm on my feet, as

12 Your Honours are well aware, today was the deadline for the Prosecution to

13 file its further observations, if any, with respect to the Defence motion

14 for judicial notice of adjudicated facts. The Prosecution would

15 respectfully request an extension in order to file those observations. We

16 would ask that they be -- that we be given until Tuesday, 23 March, that

17 is, next Tuesday, in order to -- to file our observations. Thank you,

18 Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will grant you this

20 extension of time, until Tuesday, the 23rd of March.

21 Would Madam Usher be kind enough to go and bring in the first

22 witness.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

Page 4651

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me check that you are

2 hearing in your own language what I am saying to you. Can you hear me?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called to appear

5 as a witness by the Prosecution. Before asking you to read the solemn

6 declaration, I would like you to tell me your first and last name.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivan Bohutinski.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you born?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 25th of June, 1973.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 25th of June, 1973. And

11 where were you born?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Zenica.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

14 occupation?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I completed a school for auto

16 mechanics, and I'm now working in a company as a driver.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't have the translation

18 of what you were saying. I have the English transcript. I am not hearing

19 the interpreter in French.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's okay now. I can hear the

22 interpreter.

23 You told us that you are now a driver in a company. In 1993,

24 what were you doing at the time?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

Page 4652

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, ten years ago, what

2 were you engaged in? Did you have a job? What were you doing?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't working. I was still

4 going to school. I was completing my studies.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already

6 testified in court, or is this the first time for you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

9 declaration that I am giving you through the intermediary of Madam Usher.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

13 WITNESS: IVAN BOHUTINSKI

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to

16 representatives of the Prosecution, I should like to give you some

17 information regarding the proceedings in this court. You will be

18 answering questions that will be put to you in a moment by representatives

19 of the Prosecution, on your right. After that stage, which will last a

20 certain amount of time, the lawyers representing the accused, who are to

21 your left, will also have questions for you. The three Judges, who are in

22 front of you, may also, if they find it necessary, at any point in time

23 ask you questions.

24 Sometimes the question may be complicated. And if you don't

25 understand the meaning, please ask the person who is asking you the

Page 4653

1 question to rephrase it. Before answering, think over your answer and try

2 to give a full and precise answer, because as we have no written

3 documents, what you tell us will be used to establish the truth.

4 Therefore, your testimony is important and your replies also need to be

5 complete and precise.

6 There are also two minor provisions that I wish to refer to, and

7 that is: Since you have solemnly declared to tell the truth, you cannot

8 provide false testimony. Should you do that, you could be prosecuted, as

9 anyone who provides false testimony, and this may be punished by a penalty

10 under prison sentence or both.

11 Also, there's another provision in the Rules which envisages that

12 when a witness is answering a question, if that answer may possibly

13 incriminate him, that could lead to subsequent prosecution against him, he

14 can refuse to answer. Should that happen, the Chamber can compel him to

15 answer nevertheless, but in that case he is protected because what he says

16 cannot be used as evidence against him in the future.

17 I needed to provide those explanations, as the procedure may not

18 be quite clear for you, and with a view to ensuring smooth proceedings.

19 So I thought it necessary to give you these explanations.

20 Without further ado, as we have another witness after you, I

21 give the floor now to the Prosecution.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

24 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, you indicated to the Trial Chamber that you were

25 born in Zenica. Could you say the municipality in which Zenica is

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Page 4655

1 located.

2 A. Zenica is a municipality.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us the breakdown of the -- the ethnic

4 breakdown of your fellow villagers in Zenica.

5 A. I don't know the percentages, but as far as I know, Muslims live

6 there. There are some Croats and some Serbs, but not many.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can barely hear the witness.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Witness, could you speak up a little louder,

9 please.

10 A. As far as I know, Zenica is inhabited by Muslims. There are some

11 Croats and some Serbs, but very few. I am not familiar with the

12 percentages.

13 Q. Thank you. Did there come a time when you were enlisted for any

14 military service? Could you assist us, please.

15 A. Yes. I was called up to serve in the JNA.

16 Q. And could you tell us the period for which you served.

17 A. I didn't serve in the JNA.

18 Q. Could you tell us what you did.

19 A. What I did? I was supposed to go and serve in the JNA, but I

20 refused to do that and I moved to Croatia, because I have a house there,

21 and I went there to avoid going to the JNA. So I moved to Croatia, and I

22 spent some time over there.

23 Q. Now, at the commencement of January 1993, where were you living

24 at that time?

25 A. Could you just tell me -- oh, I see it on the screen. Could you

Page 4656

1 just tell me which month you mean. January? At the beginning --

2 Q. At the commencement of January 1993.

3 A. I was living in Busovaca.

4 Q. Did there come a time when you moved back to Zenica?

5 A. It was like this: I returned from Croatia to Busovaca. I'm not

6 an inhabitant of Zenica.

7 Q. Thank you. State for the Trial Chamber, please, Mr. Bohutinski,

8 what was the atmosphere in Busovaca at the time in January 1993.

9 A. Well, you see, it was tense, up until the second half. And in

10 the second half of January, I think it was precisely on the 25th of

11 January, conflicts broke out between the Croats and the Bosniaks, or

12 Muslims. Fighting started on the 25th early in the morning.

13 Q. How old were you at this time, Mr. Bohutinski?

14 A. I was 19.

15 Q. And at this time, you were still not a member of any army, were

16 you?

17 A. I was attending training. Twenty days prior to that at the

18 barracks in Busovaca, training in the army of the HVO, the Croatian

19 Defence Council. I underwent training, but this was quite insignificant.

20 Q. Could you state for the Trial Chamber what transpired on the

21 morning of the 25th of January, when the conflict began.

22 A. According to what I understood, the war broke out between the

23 Muslims and Croats in the territory of Busovaca municipality.

24 Q. Where were you on the 25th of January, 1993?

25 A. I was in my home in Busovaca.

Page 4657

1 Q. What did you hear? Tell us what happened on that morning.

2 A. In the morning, when we got up, we heard rifle shots and shots

3 from automatic rifles and machine-guns, shooting.

4 Q. Did you go to see where the shooting was coming from?

5 A. Judging by the sound of the shots, I was able to judge that this

6 was coming from above my house, because I live in a part of the town close

7 to a hill. So behind my house was the slope and the hill, and they were

8 shooting from there.

9 Q. Could you explain for the Trial Chamber whom you mean when you

10 say "they were shooting."

11 A. I didn't know at first who it was that was shooting, and then

12 later, looking through the window, I saw HVO soldiers going along the road

13 and passing to the left of my house. Since I saw it was the HVO, I knew

14 that the Muslims were behind my house and that they were the ones who had

15 opened fire.

16 Q. Did there come a time - excuse me - during the day when you had

17 to leave your house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did you go to?

20 A. I drove my father to hospital, because he had been wounded.

21 Q. What was he wounded by?

22 A. With an automatic rifle.

23 Q. Did he wound himself?

24 A. He didn't.

25 Q. Could you explain for us -- could you explain to the Trial

Page 4658

1 Chamber how he got wounded, please.

2 A. As the HVO had come from the left side of my house, a couple of

3 hundred metres away, they didn't know, as my house is in a part of the

4 town that is inhabited exclusively by Muslims - ours was the only Croat

5 house in that part of town - and as they didn't know who we were and that

6 this was our house, as the Muslims were shooting from the houses, they

7 were mopping up that part of the town. And as we entered a room where he

8 was wounded - I don't remember exactly whether it was me or one of my

9 sisters or mother - moved the curtain, and they noticed this, and they

10 thought that perhaps we were going to open fire, as they didn't know who

11 we were, so they opened fire on our house. And the bullet flew in through

12 the window and wounded my father.

13 Q. So would it be correct in saying that your father got wounded in

14 the process of the conflict, when it just started? Would it be correct in

15 saying that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Did there come a time when you enlisted in the -- in the

18 JNA?

19 A. No. I couldn't join the JNA, because the war had already

20 started.

21 Q. Did there come a time when you were drafted in the JNA, after the

22 war?

23 A. [Inaudible response]

24 Q. Did you ever do service with the JNA?

25 A. No. I was just recruited for a medical examination, but I never

Page 4659

1 joined. I never went.

2 Q. Specifically with respect to Easter of 1993, where were you at

3 that time?

4 A. At Easter, I was on the front line, the separation line

5 between -- in Donje Milavice.

6 Q. And with whom were you in the front line, which unit?

7 A. The Croatian Defence Council.

8 Q. Did you remain on the front line?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did there come a time when you surrendered?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what took place after you surrendered.

13 A. We were captured by Muslim forces, and they killed one of my

14 colleagues and wounded another, and then they transferred us to the school

15 in the village of Lugovi - that is, the Muslim forces - the school at

16 Lugovi, where we spent, shall we say, an hour or two. And then they

17 handed us over to the 333rd Brigade of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18 the brigade from Kacuni, in Kacuni, which is a village near Busovaca.

19 They handed us over, I suppose it was some sort of a police. I don't know

20 whether they were military or civilian police. Then they shut us up in a

21 room there and we waited.

22 Q. During the time you were in Kacuni, could you tell us what

23 happened.

24 A. I was in the prison in the silo at Kacuni. They interrogated us.

25 We were imprisoned there.

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Page 4661

1 Q. And could you give the Trial Chamber an idea of what the

2 interrogation consisted of.

3 A. As all the Muslims in Kacuni knew me and I knew them, so they

4 didn't question me much, just some small details. They asked me about my

5 father, who had killed the father of a Muslim, Krompiras. They asked me

6 whether I knew who had killed him in Busovaca, and things like that. They

7 didn't ask me too much. For instance, they asked me where Kordic was

8 accommodated and Sliskovic and where the military police was, where the

9 civilian police was, things like that. Those were the questions I was

10 asked.

11 Q. For how long did you remain at the silos?

12 A. I don't know exactly, but between seven and ten days, because

13 this was a long time ago and I don't remember too well.

14 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us -- could you give us an idea of the

15 physical conditions and how you were treated at the silo.

16 A. No one hurt me in the silo, but two of my colleagues, who were

17 with me in prison, who were captured when I was taken out of prison --

18 when I returned, they had been beaten up. They were covered in blood and

19 in a very poor state.

20 Q. What were the physical conditions like in the silo?

21 A. Very bad. It was cold. We didn't have any beds. We slept on

22 the floor, on some blankets. There was no furnace to heat the room.

23 Q. Mr. -- Sir, could you wait for a moment, please.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the

25 questions being put by my learned friend are not included in any of the

Page 4662

1 counts of the indictment, the silo or any other points that are being

2 referred to now.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That was something that

4 occurred to me too, Mrs. Benjamin. He tells us that he was detained in

5 this silo for seven days in the village of Kacuni, and this is not

6 included in the indictment.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I do agree, but I needed

8 to -- to get to a certain point, and so I just introduced that. In fact,

9 the Prosecution had no intention on staying long on it, by all means. But

10 he needed to get from there to another place that is in -- it's in the

11 indictment.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Proceed, please.

13 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

14 Q. In light of what has just been said, could you tell us from the

15 silo if you were taken anywhere.

16 A. I was.

17 Q. And were you taken to another detention centre?

18 A. No. I was released. I was free.

19 Q. After you were released, were you picked up again and taken

20 anywhere?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Kindly tell the Trial Chamber where you were taken, please.

23 A. I was freed in Zenica. I stayed with an aunt there. And from

24 that apartment, I was taken in to the 303rd Brigade in Zenica.

25 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where in Zenica you were taken

Page 4663

1 to.

2 A. They took me to the mechanical engineering faculty, where their

3 headquarters was.

4 Q. And are you able to tell the Court what part of the faculty you

5 were taken to?

6 A. In a room that was perhaps 15 square metres in size. I went in.

7 Q. And could you tell us when you got there, your experience,

8 please.

9 A. They opened the door and told me to go inside and sit down.

10 Inside there was someone like a policeman wearing a military uniform. He

11 told me to sit down. I sat down. And he told me that I mustn't turn my

12 head around, that I must look straight at him, that somebody was going to

13 open the door to see me and that I mustn't turned around. And just then

14 the door opened, and I heard a female voice, and the policeman sitting in

15 front of me asked this woman whether she knew me, and she said yes.

16 After that, a couple of minutes later, he started questioning me

17 about things in Busovaca, where the military police was, where their

18 command was, where the civilian police was, where Dario Kordic was. He

19 also asked me about Krompiras's father, who had killed him. I don't know.

20 I couldn't answer, because I didn't know. And then he said that I did

21 know but that I didn't want to tell him and that he could make me tell

22 him.

23 Q. At the end of your interrogation, where were you taken to?

24 A. I was released. They let me go back to my flat.

25 Q. You were released from the room in Zenica?

Page 4664

1 A. Yes, that's right. They allowed me to return to my flat in

2 Zenica.

3 Q. And what did --

4 A. They transferred me there from Kacuni.

5 Q. And what did you do in your flat in Zenica?

6 A. I was at my aunt's. My mother's aunt was there.

7 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, after you left your aunt's flat, you indicated to

8 the Trial Chamber that you were taken to a room in Zenica. Are we on the

9 same page?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. So I'm asking you now to tell the Trial Chamber when you were

12 taken to that room what transpired. First tell us what part of the

13 building was the room.

14 A. We went in. And after the entrance, I think it was the first

15 room on the right. It was a small room. There was nothing in there, just

16 a table. In fact, I've told you what happened in the room.

17 Q. Okay. So after you were interrogated in that room, were you

18 taken anywhere in that building?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you ever kept in that building for any length of time?

21 A. Not for very long. Perhaps an hour, roughly speaking. I don't

22 know how long I spent there exactly, but about one hour.

23 Q. Well, tell the Trial Chamber what happened after.

24 A. They then released me, and then I returned to my aunt's flat in

25 Zenica. I spent the afternoon there. I slept over. And then on the

Page 4665

1 following day - I don't know at what time - someone knocked on the door.

2 Q. And did you go anywhere?

3 A. Yes. We opened the door. In fact, my aunt opened the door, and

4 there were some policemen standing in front of the door.

5 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber what happened.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine now.

7 When my aunt opened the door, there were some policemen standing

8 in front of the door. They asked whether Ivan Bohutinski was there in her

9 flat, and she said yes. They asked me to go out. I went out, and they

10 told me to go with them.

11 Q. And did you go with them?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Okay. Explain to the Trial Chamber who you mean when you say

14 "them" and describe what they looked like to you.

15 A. The policemen. When I said "them," I was referring to the

16 policemen, policemen from the 7th Muslim Brigade.

17 Q. Were they wearing uniforms?

18 A. Yes, they were wearing military uniforms. They had white belts

19 and that's why I assumed that they were military policemen. They had

20 patches on their arms, on their right arms.

21 Q. Were you taken to any particular place?

22 A. I went with them. We got into a car. I didn't know where I was

23 going until I arrived there. I arrived at the music school in Zenica.

24 Q. So you were taken to the Zenica Music School. Could you tell us,

25 when you got to the Zenica Music School, what happened, if anything?

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Page 4667

1 A. They took me into a room in which there was a television set.

2 They were probably having breakfast or lunch. In fact, that was a room

3 where people would have lunch.

4 Q. Did anything happen in the room, Mr. Bohutinski?

5 A. I spent several hours there. In the meantime, a young man - I

6 don't know who - arrived in a shirt covered in blood. He entered the room

7 and he took a container with food from the room and he went off with it

8 somewhere.

9 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber in relation to you what took

10 place in the room.

11 A. I spent several hours there. No one asked me about anything. No

12 one said anything to me. I watched television for a while. It was on. I

13 thought that I was waiting for someone.

14 Q. Did there come a time eventually when someone came?

15 A. Yes. In the early evening hours, perhaps. I couldn't tell you

16 when exactly.

17 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber what happened then.

18 A. The policeman took me to a floor in the building and he took me

19 into a dark room, where I saw a man sitting in an armchair. He had a

20 rifle in his lap. He had a slight beard, longish hair. He told me to sit

21 down, which I did. And he said that he had brought me up to be a good

22 child, that he had taught me to be a good child, but that I turned out to

23 be an insolent person and this is why I had been captured and brought to

24 see him. I recognised the person. He was a teacher of ours from

25 Busovaca. His name was Jasmin Isic.

Page 4668

1 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where this room was located.

2 Was this at the top floor? Where was the room located?

3 A. Well, I really can't remember, but I wouldn't say that it was on

4 the last floor. This happened a long time ago, so I can't remember. All

5 I know is that the room was dark.

6 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber now or relate for the

7 Trial Chamber a typical day in the life of that room for you. What

8 happened? What did you see? What did you do, if anything?

9 A. You mean the day I spent with Jasmin Isic, in that room?

10 Q. Yes, please.

11 A. I was in the room. He gave me a pen and paper. He asked me

12 where Kordic and Sliskovic were. I said I didn't know. He asked me who

13 Krompiras's father was. He asked me to tell him who had expelled so many

14 people. I said I didn't know. He then produced a sheet of white paper, a

15 blank sheet of paper and a pen. He told me to write something down. I

16 didn't know what to write down, because I had no information. I didn't

17 know where these locations were in Busovaca. He then gave me a sheet of

18 paper and started shouting at me. He started shouting at me. He started

19 cursing me. And then a policeman entered the room and told him to take me

20 away and to beat me up.

21 Q. Were you -- witness, may I interrupt. Were you eventually taken

22 away from that room?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber where you were taken to.

25 A. They took me to the prison, to the basement. That was cabinet

Page 4669

1 number 1.

2 Q. Describe for the Trial Chamber the room that you're referring to

3 that they said they took you to in the basement. Could you describe what

4 you saw when you got there, how the room looked, if there was anybody in

5 the room. Could you please tell us.

6 A. Well, when I got there, I saw there were about 15 people in the

7 room -- let's say about 15. I didn't know what the exact number was. All

8 of them -- almost all of them had been maltreated, beaten. They were

9 covered in blood. No medical assistance had been provided for them. No

10 one helped them. One person wasn't even able to walk. He had some sort

11 of kidney problems. That's what he told me. I asked him about that. I

12 asked him what they were doing there. They said that they had been

13 detained, that they had been beaten in the prison. They said that no one

14 knew that they were in the prison. It was a dark room. The windows were

15 covered with some sort of sandbags. We didn't have any facilities. For

16 sleeping, there were some sort of pallets on the floor. In the corner,

17 there were two tables that had been put together. There was some sort of

18 sponge on them, but it wasn't possible to sleep on it.

19 Q. What were your hygienic conditions like? Did you have a toilet?

20 Did you bathe? What were the conditions like?

21 A. The hygienic conditions were non-existent. If we wanted to

22 relieve ourselves, we had to call the policeman on duty. We'd go up and

23 outside. To urinate, we had a 10-litre container in the corner. That's

24 what we used to urinate in. We didn't have any water. We didn't have any

25 drinking water. We'd have to go outside to get drinking water. There was

Page 4670

1 no bathroom down there.

2 Q. Now, for how long did you stay at this room in the basement in

3 the Zenica Music School?

4 A. I can't tell you how long exactly, but on the 18th -- on the 18th

5 of May, I got out of the prison. So it was perhaps the 27th or 28th or

6 29th of April, up until the 18th of May.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, during that period of time that you

8 spent at -- in the basement of the Zenica Music School, what was life like

9 for you? How was -- how was -- describe a routine day. What happened?

10 A. Living conditions down there were very difficult. The

11 conditions were really bad. Life was very difficult for me and for my

12 comrades who were down there. But if you want me to describe a particular

13 day for you, I'll do so. Just tell me --

14 Q. Yes, you can. Any particular day that you think is of

15 significance to you, could you describe it for the Trial Chamber, please.

16 A. Well, for example, when I went to clean in the music school, a

17 military policeman came to fetch me in the prison. He called my name out.

18 When I approached the bars at the exit, he told me that he was from

19 Busovaca. He said that no one would touch me and he said that I should go

20 and clean their rooms. I agreed to do so. The man took me out and up the

21 stairs, up to the top of the building. He gave me a broom and a bucket

22 full of water, I think, and he told me that I should go and clean up. I

23 followed him. He asked me how things were in Busovaca. I wasn't

24 provoked. We got into a room on the floor. He told me to take my shoes

25 off and to go into the room and clean it.

Page 4671

1 I opened the door, entered the room, and I saw that this was a

2 room where the Muslims would perform their religious rites. There were

3 rugs on the floor and they would probably kneel down on them.

4 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, so one -- are you saying to the Trial Chamber

5 that one of your duties while you were there was to clean the rooms? Am I

6 right?

7 A. I only cleaned the rooms on one occasion.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. I don't know what they thought about these duties.

10 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, did any other activities take place?

11 Were you subjected to interrogation? Could you please explain to us what

12 happened during your days.

13 A. Well, when I was in the cell down there, a couple of policemen

14 would appear. I don't know their names. And they asked me to give them

15 money so that they could exchange me, to release me. They asked me

16 whether I was Ivcan Bilic's grandson. They asked me whether my

17 grandfather had any money, and they said they could arrange this exchange

18 but that I had to pay for it, and they wanted to know roughly how much my

19 grandfather could pay for this exchange.

20 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, very briefly but precisely tell the Trial

21 Chamber, did you give anybody any money?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Were you eventually exchanged?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you were in the basement or during your period of -- of

Page 4672

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Page 4673

1 imprisonment in the basement, did you hear anything at all besides, I

2 mean, seeing what you saw, what you told us? Did you hear anything from

3 the basement?

4 A. I heard them beating in a room. I didn't see the beatings, but

5 you could hear people groaning. I realised that they were beating someone

6 in that room upstairs to the right of the entrance. That's where the

7 soldiers probably had their dormitory. I heard them beating someone.

8 Q. And for how long would you say that these beatings went on for?

9 A. I don't know. For up to about half an hour. I don't believe it

10 went on for any longer than that.

11 Q. Thank you. And when you were exchanged at the music school,

12 where did you go to?

13 A. I went to Vitez. I was exchanged. I went to Vitez. I then

14 returned from Vitez. I only spent one day there. And then I returned to

15 my place of birth, to Busovaca.

16 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, state for the trial opinion -- state for the

17 Trial Chamber what is your opinion of what transpired on -- from January

18 1993 until April 1993. How do you feel about what happened?

19 A. Well, very briefly and concisely, if you watch a horror film at

20 night and then go to sleep, would you be able to sleep well? It was

21 chaos. The situation was very difficult. It was difficult to survive in

22 such a situation and remain a normal person. It was really intolerable.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is the

25 examination-in-chief of this witness.

Page 4674

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll now turn to

2 the Defence.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Bohutinski. My name is Edina

6 Residovic. I represent General Hadzihasanovic. I would like you to

7 answer a number of questions. And if there is a question that you don't

8 understand, please let me know.

9 In response to a question put to you by the Prosecution, you said

10 that you were born in Zenica but that you grew up in Busovaca; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. After you had been summoned to be recruited into the JNA, you

14 avoided responding because war had already broken out in the Republic of

15 Croatia; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. When you returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina, the JNA attacked

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina soon after; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. Although you were of age, you didn't report to the HVO or to the

21 Territorial Defence immediately, although these organisations existed in

22 Busovaca at the time; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, it is.

24 Q. However, after going through training, the HVO requested that you

25 join their units, which you did at the beginning of 1993; is that correct?

Page 4675

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In response to a question put to you by my learned colleague, you

3 said that the tension in Busovaca between the HVO and the Territorial

4 Defence at the time started at the beginning of 1993; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. However, the armed conflict, as you have stated, started on the

7 25th of January; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You lived with your family in a part of Busovaca which was

10 inhabited by mostly Muslim -- Muslims and Bosniaks; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. In that part of Busovaca, you were in fact the only Croatian

13 family; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your relationships and your parents' relationships with your

16 neighbours had always been good; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On that day, on the 25th of January, it was clear to you, given

19 the shooting from all sides, that an armed conflict had started in

20 Busovaca between the units of the BH army and the units of the HVO; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. At that point in time, you didn't know who had started the

24 conflict; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4676

1 Q. However, as you have already said, you saw HVO members

2 approaching your house.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also noticed that the HVO was shooting at each house, because

5 they knew that that part of town was inhabited by Bosniaks; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. By mistake, since they weren't aware of the fact that you were a

9 Croatian family, they also shot at your house; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your father was wounded with dumdum bullets, fragmentation

12 bullets.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Those fragmentation bullets were fired at your house by someone

15 from HVO positions. This person thought that the house was inhabited by

16 Bosniaks. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, most likely.

18 Q. After you'd taken your father to hospital, you found out that the

19 HVO had captured all army members by the end of the day and took them and

20 a large part of the population to the Kaonik prison.

21 A. I didn't know about the Kaonik prison. I didn't have that

22 information.

23 Q. However, you were aware of the fact that they had been captured

24 and taken away; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4677

1 Q. After these conflicts, the HVO took full control of Busovaca and

2 virtually all the Bosniak population of Busovaca was expelled.

3 A. Not all, but most of them.

4 Q. You joined the HVO in mid-April 1993; is that right?

5 A. Yes, on the 16th.

6 Q. Very soon after that, while you were on the HVO front lines,

7 another armed conflict started against the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

8 is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you said that

11 after the killing of one of your colleagues, a member of the HVO, and the

12 wounding of another, you surrendered; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were taken to the command post of the 303rd Brigade of the

15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Actually, as you said, it was the

16 so-called Kacuni Brigade. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. One of the commanders present was Alija Begic, whom you knew; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During the interrogation, you realised that they were asking for

22 military information.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During that interrogation and the following days, while you were

25 in detention of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, people treated you

Page 4678

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 4679

1 correctly. No one mistreated you.

2 A. No, no one beat me, but I didn't have normal conditions in those

3 places of detention.

4 Q. Five or six days later you were released, and you yourself chose

5 to go to Zenica, because they asked you whether you had anyone in Visoko

6 or somewhere else; is that right?

7 A. I was supposed to go to Busovaca first, but it wasn't possible to

8 go there, to pass. And then they asked me whether I had someone in Visoko

9 or Zenica.

10 Q. Commander Begic wanted to release you to go home but the combat

11 conditions did not allow it; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So then you decided to stay with your aunt, and they transported

14 you safely to Zenica; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While you were staying at the music school, you personally were

17 not physically mistreated once; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. The only incorrect point was when these unknown soldiers demanded

20 money from you for exchange.

21 A. Unknown soldiers and also Jasmin Isic, because he -- him, I knew,

22 and he also asked me for money for the exchange.

23 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, you are now living in correct and, one might say,

24 friendly relations with most of the Bosniaks who are living in Busovaca or

25 in the environs, and you know them; is that right?

Page 4680

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 On behalf of Mr. Kubura's Defence team, I have a few questions

7 for today's witness.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bohutinski, you described earlier on today

10 during your testimony that you were captured on the 19th of March, 1993,

11 just before Easter; is that right?

12 A. Yes. The 19th of March?

13 Q. The 19th of April. I'm sorry.

14 At the time, you were captured as a member of the HVO; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes, on the front line.

17 Q. You surrendered or, rather, you were captured by a unit known as

18 the Black Swans; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After interrogation in the 303rd Brigade, you went to Zenica, as

21 you just told my colleague, Madam Residovic.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On the 29th of April, 1993, you went to the music school.

24 A. I can't confirm the exact date. It was a long time ago. Now,

25 whether it was exactly then, but around that date.

Page 4681

1 Q. Very shortly after your arrival at the music school, you met Isic

2 Jasmin; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Jasmin Isic was someone you knew before the war; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Jasmin Isic was a person of doubtful character. Before the war,

7 he was prone to gambling, stealing; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You described your first conversation with Jasmin Isic. Is it

10 true that he ordered that no one may beat you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He repeated that several times.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you went to the basement the first time, you found 15

15 persons down there.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They were mostly members of the HVO.

18 A. Yes, I think, but there were civilians too, because they were

19 coming in civilian clothes. Yes, I think there were civilians too. Not

20 just members of the HVO.

21 Q. You know the name Krunoslav Rajic?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. He was in the music school at the same time as you were.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Krunoslav Rajic is also a person who was not physically

Page 4682

1 mistreated in any way.

2 A. While I was there, he wasn't.

3 Q. During your stay at the music school, some members of the Army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina were brought there too; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During your stay, you had occasion to be visited by medical

7 personnel or, rather, nurses on behalf of the army and the 7th Muslim

8 Brigade.

9 A. Just once, because I complained I had stomach pain. And then

10 they sent me a nurse with a green bag who gave me some pills. And this

11 was just for me.

12 Q. You were also visited by your aunt from Zenica; is that right?

13 A. No. She came to visit me, but they wouldn't let her see me. But

14 when the exchange took place, she came.

15 Q. They allowed her to leave you food and clothes to change into; is

16 that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Contact was established with you very shortly through these

19 soldiers, who said that a certain amount of money was required for you

20 exchange.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This offer was repeated to you personally by Jasmin Isic.

23 A. Only a smaller sum was suggested than the one demanded by the

24 soldiers.

25 Q. And those soldiers were speaking on behalf of Jasmin Isic?

Page 4683

1 A. I don't know that. No one said that.

2 Q. The first sum mentioned was the sum of 50.000 German marks; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, a fair-haired policeman asked me for that amount.

5 Q. You were allowed to contact your father by phone; is that right?

6 A. Yes, but later.

7 Q. You passed on this sum to your father.

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. You know that Jasmin Isic spoke to your uncle regarding the

10 exchange and the money requested.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And your uncle's name is Janko Batinic; is that right?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Regarding the negotiations, if we can call them that, about your

15 exchange, you met Mr. Karalic [Realtime transcript read in error

16 "Krljaca"] in the music school as well.

17 A. Not directly. But the people in the prison told me that that was

18 his name.

19 Q. Your father told you that he could only raise 10.000 German marks

20 for your exchange.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the end, an agreement was reached that that would be -- that

23 the price would be 7.000 German marks.

24 A. Yes, and that they had to be deposited on an account for Muslim

25 refugees from Busovaca. I don't really know what he meant when he said

Page 4684

1 that. That is what Jasmin said to me.

2 Q. Jasmin Isic was dissatisfied with this price, wasn't he?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. On the 18th of May, you left the music school.

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Throughout your stay there, from about the 29th of April until

7 the 18th of May, you were not mistreated in any way or beaten in the music

8 school.

9 A. I wasn't.

10 Q. The only duty you had during your stay there was the cleaning

11 that you described. You had no other duties or work to do.

12 A. No, we didn't do anything. No.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

14 have no further questions of this witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Benjamin,

16 have you any re-examination for this witness?

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I just have one question, Mr. President.

18 Re-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

19 Q. Mr. Bohutinski, at the basement of the Zenica Music School, did

20 you get three regular meals per day?

21 A. Sometimes we didn't. And when we did get meals, they were very

22 bad meals that we were not satisfied with. The food was insufficient.

23 When I went to prison and when I returned, I had lost between 10 and 12

24 kilograms, which shows that the food was nowhere near adequate.

25 Q. And in your opinion, you were treated correctly in the basement?

Page 4685

1 A. Well, I really don't know what to say. I don't know what exactly

2 you mean, whether they treated me correctly or not. They didn't touch me.

3 But the very fact that I was there in the basement is a bad thing, which

4 shows that they didn't treat me well. Had they treated me well, they

5 would have let me go free.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes

8 this witness.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 For the transcript, on page 30, line 8, the name is misspelt. It

11 should be Karalic and not Krljaca.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The transcript will

13 be corrected accordingly so that the names are spelt properly.

14 Thank you, sir, for coming to testify. You have answered the

15 questions of the Prosecution and of the Defence. Thank you for having

16 contributed to the establishment of the truth for you testimony. We wish

17 you a safe journey home. And the usher will be kind enough to escort you

18 out of the courtroom.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us now go into private

22 session, as the Prosecution has an application to make for protective

23 measures.

24 [Private session]

25 (Redacted)

Page 4686

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2 (Redacted)

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5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Carry on, Mr. Stamp.

15 MR. STAMP:

16 Q. You earlier mentioned that the attacks on the area of

17 responsibility were carried out by units of the 7th Muslim Brigade, the

18 328th Brigade, the 306th Brigade, and the 314th Brigade. Can you say

19 which corps these units belonged to?

20 A. Those units were part of the 3rd Corps of the BH army.

21 Q. Witness, can you recall - and I'd like you to listen to me very

22 carefully, because we are moving on to a different corps - can you recall

23 when the 7th Corps was formed? I am very sorry. I'll repeat the

24 question.

25 Witness, I'd like to ask you about another corps, the 7th Corps.

Page 4717

1 Can you recall when the 7th Corps was formed?

2 A. No, I can't remember exactly.

3 Q. Very well. Can you remember the year?

4 A. I think it was in 1993 or in 1994.

5 Q. Would the 7th Corps have been formed --

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already said

9 which units or corps participated. In the last three questions, the

10 Prosecution is suggesting that the witness provide a different kind of

11 answer, and we do not think that this is appropriate when conducting an

12 examination-in-chief.

13 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, there is -- with respect --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp, please take

15 note of what has just been said. According to the common-law system, when

16 a question is asked and the answer is precise, you are not allowed to ask

17 the same question in order to obtain a different answer. You asked

18 whether the witness could say -- if he could say when the 7th Corps was

19 established. He said he couldn't. And that's the end of the matter. He

20 can't tell you about that.

21 MR. STAMP: With respect, Mr. President. He did not say he

22 couldn't. He said he couldn't remember exactly, which is quite a

23 different thing. So, therefore, the next question was: Can you remember

24 the year? Which is not an improper question, having regard to the answer.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But he wasn't able

Page 4718

1 to answer the question. That's why the Defence intervened.

2 Mrs. Residovic.

3 MR. STAMP: May I -- with respect to my friend, before she rises,

4 there is --

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has just said that it

6 could have been in 1993 or 1994. And in response to the previous

7 questions before the discussion about the map, he said which corps

8 participated in the attack on -- in this area before the 8th of June. So

9 the witness has answered this question in several ways, and asking the

10 witness any additional questions might lead the witness to provide a

11 different sort of answer.

12 MR. STAMP: With respect, Mr. President, the Prosecution is

13 entitled to ask the witness questions of clarification or questions that

14 will help him to give more precise evidence that will assist the Court in

15 its deliberations. I respectfully submit that none of these questions I

16 have asked is improper. What I think is -- well, I will not go as

17 strongly as to say what I think is improper. May I just say that having

18 regard to where we are, counsel and I know what the evidence is and

19 understand the difficulties in terms of what has been said. Therefore, I

20 should say for the record that it might well be proper in making some

21 objections to do so outside of the hearing of the witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. This point has already

23 been raised by the Defence.

24 Could you tell me what the question is in relation to the

25 transcript, the question that you want to ask the witness in order to

Page 4719

1 obtain clarifications? Because we would like to know what the question

2 you want to put to the witness is.

3 MR. STAMP: Could the witness be taken out of hearing. It might

4 well be -- it might not assist the proceedings.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you like, that is not a

6 problem.

7 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness out of the courtroom.

8 We'll lose ten minutes.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, please proceed and

11 try and tell us about the question that you want to ask the witness. It

12 seems that there is some confusion. You may proceed.

13 MR. STAMP: The witness earlier in chief said that among those

14 involved in the offensive of the 8th of June was a battalion of the 7th

15 Corps. The Prosecution is entitled to clarify that matter with a view to

16 present before the Court the most accurate evidence that this witness is

17 capable of giving, and that is just to assist the Court in its

18 deliberations.

19 The question to the witness -- the next question to the witness

20 was whether or not he can recall whether the 7th Corps existed before the

21 8th of June or after the 8th of June. Because if it was created after the

22 8th of June, then certain obvious and logical inferences can be drawn in

23 respect to that aspect of the testimony.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll listen to what

25 the Defence has to say. But first of all, I would like to summarise the

Page 4720

1 problem. In response to a question put to the witness, the witness said

2 that the 7th Corps participated in the attack. The Prosecution wanted the

3 witness to say -- to determine whether it was in fact the 7th Corps. They

4 wanted to -- the witness to say when the 7th Corps was established. The

5 witness was not able to answer the question, and as a result the

6 Prosecution wanted the witness to inform them of the year in which the 7th

7 Corps was established, in order to establish whether it could have been

8 the 7th Corps on the 8th of June or whether it was the 3rd Corps. So this

9 is what is at stake.

10 What would the Defence like to say about the matter?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have already

12 expressed our position. This amounts to leading the witness. The

13 Prosecution is trying to obtain the answer that they want from the

14 witness. Naturally, the witness has been presented to the Trial Chamber

15 as a military expert. This problem concerns the existence of a corps, the

16 largest formation in the BH army, and the Prosecution wants to make it

17 impossible for the Defence, in relation to the answer provided on page 47,

18 line 23 and also answers provided when answering other questions. The

19 witness quite clearly said that it could have been 1993 or 1994, so the

20 witness [as interpreted] is trying to lead the witness in order to obtain

21 the answer that they require and they want to prevent the Defence from

22 asking questions on the basis of the answers that the witness provided

23 before the Trial Chamber.

24 We don't think that this is permissible, because the witness has

25 answered the question to the best of his ability. We think that perhaps

Page 4721

1 the Prosecution doesn't like the answer provided. But we think that the

2 witness has already answered this question on three occasions. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will withdraw

4 again to deliberate.

5 --- Break taken at 12.24 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to the problem

8 raised, the Trial Chamber believes that the witness should clarify his

9 answer, because the Trial Chamber doesn't exclude the possibility that the

10 witness made a mistake with regard to the fact that the 7th Corps was in

11 question. Perhaps he wanted to say that the 7th Brigade was in question.

12 Either there was a translation error or the witness made a mistake. The

13 7th Corps was mentioned, but perhaps the witness was thinking of the 7th

14 Brigade.

15 As a result, the Trial Chamber will ask the witness to clarify

16 the matter.

17 Could the usher lower the blinds again and bring the witness into

18 the courtroom.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But before you take the

22 floor, the Trial Chamber would like to ask the witness a question in order

23 to clarify something. We are in open session, so we can ask the witness

24 this question: In the course of the examination-in-chief, a question was

25 put to you. You were asked who participated in the attack, and you

Page 4722

1 said -- you informed us of the identity of those who participated in the

2 attack, and you yourself said you were a member of the HVO. What we would

3 like to know, because this is the subject of debate and perhaps it's the

4 result of a translation error or perhaps you made a mistake when answering

5 the question -- what we would like to know is the following: Who

6 participated in the attack against the HVO? Could you tell us precisely.

7 As you know, there are units within an army, units that consist of corps

8 and units that we call brigades. Corps should not be confused with

9 brigades. So the question that the Trial Chamber would like to ask you is

10 the question that the Prosecution has already asked you, but the answer is

11 problematic in that it is difficult to understand.

12 My question is: Who participated in the attack against the HVO?

13 Could you answer that question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I testified on the

15 basis of the intelligence that I had. According to the information I had,

16 units of the BH 3rd Corps carried out the attack.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you say that

18 these were units of the 3rd Corps. You did say "the 3rd Corps."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to the information

21 that you were provided with, were there any other army corps or only 3rd

22 Corps units? The question is precise.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of what I experienced

24 and what I have indicated on the map, when we were surrounded in the place

25 called Ceke, I think a megaphone was probably used -- I know that they

Page 4723

1 asked us to surrender, and the person who asked us to surrender said that

2 he was from the BH army in Visoko. He said, "Surrender your weapons and

3 we guarantee that the civilians will be safe."

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the person who told you to

5 do that, he was a member of which army corps?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think that that brigade was

7 part of the 1st Corps. It's really difficult to know what the exact

8 structure in the army was, but I know that they asked us to surrender. I

9 remember that well. And they said that it was the BH army from Visoko.

10 As to whether that was true or not, I really could not say.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you can see

12 that there is a problem. You said that you were surrounded by the 3rd

13 Corps and those who asked you to surrender said that they were part of the

14 1st Corps. So it's necessary to know who was surrounding you. Was it the

15 BH army that consisted of a number of corps or was it just the 3rd Corps

16 or was it the 3rd Corps and the 1st Corps or a number of other corps? As

17 far as you know, on the basis of the information that you had, who carried

18 out the attack and which army corps attacked you and asked you to

19 surrender?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, according to the information

21 that I had, according to the intelligence I had, these were units from the

22 3rd Corps, and probably a brigade from Visoko. But I'm not sure of -- of

23 the level of this formation.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The answer is

25 precise. The witness said it was the army's 3rd Corps and said that it

Page 4724

1 was a unit - a brigade, not a corps - a brigade from Visoko. I think that

2 this is clear. And the 7th Corps is not an issue that seems to arise.

3 In order to be quite sure, did you have any information according

4 to which the 7th Corps was also present?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether the 7th

6 Corps had been established at that time.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Mr. Stamp, you may continue. It was necessary to clarify the

9 matter. I realised that there was a problem at the very beginning, but I

10 wanted to allow the Prosecution to continue with its examination. Because

11 on page 47, line 23 the problem that we have been debating for 20 minutes

12 appeared.

13 MR. STAMP: Very well. Thank you very much for the --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have another five or, shall

15 we say, ten minutes before the break, because there were several

16 interruptions of the hearing. So let's say you have another ten minutes

17 and then we'll have the break.

18 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm quite sure that I will

19 not even use that amount of time.

20 Q. Where was this -- you said probably there was a brigade from

21 Visoko.

22 A. We were at positions round the village of Ceke at the time. And

23 members of that brigade were at the open cast mine area, a part of Strmac.

24 Q. From the information that you had, do you know whether or not

25 members of that brigade from Visoko operated at any other position, apart

Page 4725

1 from the open cast mine?

2 A. I am really unable to answer that question. It was only from

3 that direction that calls came for us to surrender.

4 Q. Can you remember any of the names of the commanders of the

5 brigades that were involved in the attack?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session now. Do

7 you wish us to go into private session? We are in open session now.

8 MR. STAMP: No, Mr. President.

9 Q. Just, if you can, just tell us the names based on the information

10 you have of persons who were in leadership positions in the brigades

11 involved in the attack at the time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

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Page 4733

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25 [Open session]

Page 4734

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So as you have already said, on the 8th of June an intensified

4 attack was directed against these defence lines of yours in Mrkonje; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were able to hear both artillery and infantry fire in the

8 attack.

9 A. Yes. I even heard cries of "Tekbir, Allah-U-Ekber." This was at

10 Ovnak.

11 Q. From Ovnak, in the course of those battles, you were able to

12 notice that four or five houses were on fire.

13 A. Yes. I saw that as well as I see you now.

14 Q. However, you did not see who or how those houses had been set on

15 fire.

16 A. No, I didn't see that.

17 Q. Allow me now to refer to your statement given in November to the

18 Prosecution.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And to be able to ask the witness

20 some questions, I would like him to be shown this statement. We have

21 copies for the Trial Chamber and our learned friends. The Defence does

22 not intend to tender this statement into evidence or to be marked for

23 identification, but we would like to ask him some questions in relation to

24 his testimony today.

25 MR. STAMP: I'm not sure if what Defence counsel -- could the

Page 4735

1 statement be taken from the witness, please.

2 Witness, could you please close that statement.

3 I'm not sure -- as a matter of fact, I object to the course of

4 action that Defence counsel is taking. Defence counsel may, if they wish

5 to establish some previous inconsistent statement or for one or two other

6 reasons, refer to the witness statement. But Defence counsel is not, it

7 is my submission, entitled to put the statement in his hand and ask him

8 whatever questions they want to ask him from the statement. So I think it

9 would be useful if we begin by Defence counsel telling us what is the

10 purpose of giving the witness a statement that he has already made.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Defence tell us what

12 is the purpose of showing this statement to the witness. But we mustn't

13 also forget the beginning, that originally this statement was suggested to

14 be tendered into evidence by the Prosecution under 92 bis and it was the

15 Defence who opposed it, and now the Defence is showing the document again.

16 Now, what is the ultimate objective, please?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are not

18 presenting the statement to the Trial Chamber. We just wish to ask some

19 questions regarding the knowledge of this witness about the structure of

20 the army and his credibility we would like to check. Those are the

21 reasons we are showing him this statement. Only two paragraphs from the

22 statement and nothing more.

23 MR. STAMP: Respectfully -- respectfully, it is the submission of

24 the Prosecution that the witness ought to be asked in examination, both in

25 cross-examination and in examination-in-chief about matters that he can

Page 4736

1 testify to without the assistance of documents. Only in certain

2 circumstances, it is submitted, do the Rules allow him to be given a

3 statement either to refresh his memory to contradict him with the previous

4 inconsistent statement. But it would be improper for counsel to hand to

5 any witness some previous statement they have given and generally just ask

6 them questions about a previous statement. Perhaps counsel should ask the

7 witness whatever they wish to ask the witness and there may be

8 circumstances where it is permissible for them to hand to the witness a

9 statement. That is my submission. May it please you.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to

11 remind my learned friend, which he's aware of, that the position of the

12 Appeals Chamber of this Tribunal is that a previous statement may be used,

13 given under Rule 92 bis in the cross-examination, regardless of whether it

14 was admitted or not. But that is not the latest decision. It has been

15 the practice of this Tribunal and part of the Rules of the

16 cross-examination.

17 Let me put my first question to the witness, and then I will

18 remind him of something that is stated in that statement. And I therefore

19 think that the remarks of my learned friend are inappropriate.

20 MR. STAMP: Anyhow, I think we're in agreement. So perhaps I

21 could sit. She ought to put the questions to the witness and then in

22 certain circumstances it might be permissible to use some document or

23 previous statement of the witness.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You put the question, and

25 then you tell him, depending on the answer that you get, I'm showing you

Page 4737

1 such and such a paragraph from your statement and what do you say to that?

2 Rather than the reverse procedure. So put the question first, and then we

3 will show him the relevant paragraphs.

4 So as you have two questions only apparently - you mentioned

5 two - what is your first question?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. In connection with two

7 paragraphs in this statement. Maybe I wasn't quite specific enough.

8 Q. Sir, Mr. ZM, in answering questions from my learned friend and

9 the President of the Trial Chamber, you finally said that in these attacks

10 of the 8th of June, units of the 3rd Corps took part -- actually, the 3rd

11 Corps, and afterwards you remembered that the 1st Corps also took part,

12 that is, a unit from Visoko. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at paragraph 8 of your

15 statement.

16 MR. STAMP: I suspect -- and I object to this course. It is not

17 a proper procedure, with respect. I suspect that counsel is trying to

18 indicate that there is something in the statement which may well be not

19 the same thing as she wants to hear. And it is my submission that she

20 ought to put the question directly to the witness first. It is his

21 testimony in court which is evidence. If the witness answers one way,

22 then it is permissible for them to use the statement to contradict him or

23 for whatever purpose. But until the witness has answered the direct

24 question, it is my submission that the statement ought not be put in front

25 of him.

Page 4738

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

2 repeatedly answered this question, and I think that the purpose of the

3 cross-examination is for me to check the credibility of the witness's

4 answers. So I appeal to you to allow me to continue with my

5 cross-examination.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to withdraw for a

7 couple of seconds to deliberate. It won't take long. We'll be back soon.

8 --- Break taken at 1.31 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the question raised

11 by the Defence, the Chamber notes that at the beginning the Prosecution,

12 asking questions of the witness, obtained from the witness the

13 identification of the units that prosecuted the attack by mentioning the

14 3rd Corps and the 7th Corps. After that, the Defence objected on a

15 question when the witness, upon the request of the Chamber, indicated that

16 there was a 3rd Corps and a unit from Visoko, which according to him

17 belonged to the 1st Corps.

18 The Defence, within the framework of the cross-examination asks

19 the witness again whether during the attack the 3rd Corps was indeed

20 present as well as a unit from Visoko. The witness confirmed that that

21 was the answer he gave. At that point, the Prosecution wanted to show the

22 witness a written statement where there was no mention of the unit from

23 Visoko, and the Defence, to verify the credibility of the witness, wants

24 to show him that sentence in the written statement signed by him.

25 So the Chamber is of the opinion, when it comes to the

Page 4739

1 credibility of the witness, it is possible for him to be asked to confirm

2 a reply he gave in the examination-in-chief. The Defence, noting that

3 that reply raises questions of credibility, wants to verify that answer by

4 showing him the statement. So the Defence is allowed to ask the witness

5 to read paragraph 8 of his statement and to tell us exactly what was meant

6 by his statement, 3rd Corps, 7th Corps, 1st Corps.

7 So please put the question to the witness.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Witness, please have a look at paragraph 8. Would it be correct

10 to say that --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Take your time. Read through

12 paragraph 8 first. But read it to yourself. And then you will answer the

13 Defence's question.

14 Perhaps you have made a mistake. The purpose of the question is

15 to establish the truth.

16 MR. STAMP: Not an objection, but can I just quickly see what is

17 being handed.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The eighth paragraph.

19 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He has read the eighth

21 paragraph. Ask the witness your question now.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. ZM, is it correct to say that in your statement given to the

24 Prosecution you stated that you believed that units of the 3rd Corps and

25 the 7th Corps of the ABiH participated in this offensive? And the 8th of

Page 4740

1 June is referred to. Is that what you stated?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it correct to say that you then explained that the

4 headquarters of the 7th Corps was in Travnik and its zone of

5 responsibility extended from Ovnak to Travnik and the headquarters of the

6 3rd Corps was in Zenica and its zone of responsibility extended from Ovnak

7 to Zenica? Is that what you said?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you also say, Mr. ZM -- is it correct to say that I'm quoting

10 you -- did you say that the 7th Corps had a brigade comprised of refugees

11 from Krajina and it was called the 7th Krajina Brigade?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What you said is not in agreement with what you have testified

14 about today before this Court; is that correct?

15 A. Well, this is intelligence obtained. I can tell you that the 7th

16 Corps was formed from the 3rd Corps, but I couldn't remember the date when

17 the 7th Corps was established. But those units were formed from the 3rd

18 Corps. The 7th Corps was formed from the 3rd Corps. All the units from

19 the BH army that start with number 3 were part of the 3rd Corps. And that

20 includes the 306th unit, et cetera, et cetera.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, everyone

22 in the courtroom is trying to understand what you are saying, and to

23 clarify what you are saying. It seems that some confusion has been

24 created. It concerns the information that you obtained and the impression

25 that you yourself had. So it's necessary to clarify this, and this is

Page 4741

1 what the Defence is trying to do by putting questions to you. Can you

2 make this clear for everyone. Can you make what you are saying clear for

3 everyone. On the one hand, you mentioned information obtained from

4 others; and on the other hand, you mentioned your personal knowledge. Can

5 you clarify what the relation is between these two factors in order to

6 make sure what the meaning of your answer to the Prosecution's questions

7 was.

8 So the Defence is trying to clarify your answers by asking you

9 some questions. What everyone wants to know is which units participated

10 in the operation. Either you should say that it's information that I

11 obtained and I'm telling you that's the case. My testimony, what I said

12 in paragraph 8, only reflects what I was informed of. Or otherwise, tell

13 us that what is relevant is what you are testifying about here. Try to

14 clarify this matter for us. If you are not in a position to do so, tell

15 us that you can't.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I have said

17 already, the 7th Corps was formed when the zone of responsibility of the

18 3rd Corps changed. I can't remember exactly when this happened, but the

19 units in the area of Travnik municipality were an integral part of the 7th

20 Corps or the battalion that was under the 3rd Corps.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that in

22 your opinion the units of the 3rd Corps had their name changed and they

23 came to be called the 7th Corps; is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The zone of responsibility of the

25 3rd Corps was reduced and the 7th Corps was established, but I can't

Page 4742

1 remember the date when the 7th Corps was established. I don't know

2 whether it was before the attack against us or after us. In any event, if

3 the members of that unit who carried out the attack against our defence

4 lines from the direction of Mehurici, Han Bila, if they weren't part of

5 the 7th Corps, they were certainly part of the battalion subordinated to

6 the 3rd Corps of the BH army.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So does that mean that

8 paragraph 8 that you have in front of you does not take into account this

9 question in a very precise manner? In fact, the units of the 3rd Corps

10 were placed under the control of the 7th Corps? Is that the case? This

11 isn't what is stated in your written statement.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's not correct.

13 The level of a corps -- a corps is under the Main Staff -- the main

14 command of the BH army. But what I said about the brigade from Visoko,

15 according to military rules any brigade that enters the zone of

16 responsibility of a given corps, units of -- they're subordinated to that

17 corps. So this brigade from Visoko - and I assume that it participated in

18 the attacks - was subordinated to the 3rd Corps. It had to be

19 subordinated to the 3rd Corps, according to the command structure. It had

20 to be a part of the operative system and come under the orders of the 3rd

21 Corps.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. May I

23 continue?

24 Q. Would it be correct to say, Mr. ZM, that in paragraph 7 you said

25 that from the direction of Zenica the 7th Muslim Brigade and the 327th

Page 4743

1 Brigade took action?

2 A. This is information. The 314th and the 328th Brigade. There's a

3 mistake here. It was the 328th Brigade.

4 Q. Would it be correct to say that in paragraph 12 at the end you

5 said that from another direction the 328th Brigade also took part in the

6 action? This is something that you also said in paragraph 11, in the last

7 sentence of paragraph 11.

8 A. A brigade has it battalions.

9 Q. My question is whether I'm interpreting your statement correctly.

10 In paragraph 11, you said that the 328th Brigade also took part in the

11 action. You repeated this in the last sentence of paragraph 12. And in

12 paragraph 7, you said that the 327th Brigade also participated in the

13 action. Is that what it says?

14 A. In paragraph 7 it says that the 327th Brigade took part in the

15 attack, but there is a mistake there. The brigade in question is the

16 same; it's the 328th Brigade.

17 Q. Mr. ZM --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we note that

19 there is a mistake in the seventh paragraph. The number isn't "7." The

20 number is "8." It's the 327th, not the 328th Brigade. That's what you

21 wanted to show. Please carry on.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll tell the

23 witness what I wanted to demonstrate.

24 Q. Witness, you said -- well, let me put it this way: If I told you

25 that the 7th Corps didn't exist in 1993, if I told you that it was formed

Page 4744

1 in 1994, you would probably agree with me; is that correct?

2 A. I said in the first statement that I gave I'm not sure. I said

3 that I thought that it was formed in 1993 or in 1994.

4 Q. If I told you that in 1993, within the structure of the 3rd Corps

5 there was a battalion or a division of no kind, these units didn't exist

6 within the army structure, you would probably also agree with me; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Well, I wouldn't agree with you. I know for sure that the army

9 command was in Travnik and at a higher level than the brigade level.

10 Q. If I told you, Mr. ZM, that within the army there was no brigade

11 called the 328th Brigade, you would probably be able to agree with me.

12 A. I wouldn't agree with you if I didn't have reliable information

13 about that beforehand.

14 Q. You would also agree with me that within the structure of the 3rd

15 Corps of the BH army there was no 7th Krajina Brigade in existence.

16 A. I wouldn't agree with you.

17 Q. In fact, everything that you told the investigator at the time

18 and everything you have testified about before the Court today is only the

19 result of the fact that the intelligence you had was not sufficient and

20 you personally never checked this intelligence; is that correct?

21 A. Well, I wasn't in a position to verify this information.

22 Q. So in 1993, in fact you know nothing about the structure and the

23 subordination system in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 A. I had some information, and I compiled a report on the basis of

25 the information that I had.

Page 4745

1 Q. The information you had was obtained from civilians who would

2 arrive in your area and certain intelligence officers from your battalion;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. You never saw a single document which regulated the structure of

6 the BH army or of the 3rd Corps in June 1993; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Thank you very much.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

10 this witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 And the other Defence team? But I must tell them that time is

13 flying.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

15 only have two or three questions for this witness.

16 But in view of the fact that the statement has already been shown

17 to the witness, I would like it to be returned to the witness because I

18 have some questions regarding paragraph 7 that Mrs. Residovic referred to.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us proceed in the customary

20 way. You first put the question to the witness, and then the paragraph

21 will be shown to him. So put your question first, please.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. ZM, during your testimony today, you

24 mentioned the units that took part in the offensive on the 8th of June,

25 1993; is that right?

Page 4746

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Among others, you named the 7th Muslim Brigade.

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

5 the statement that was shown to him a moment ago.

6 Q. Witness, in paragraph 7, you stated that the 7th Muslim Brigade

7 was attacking in the area of Strmac; is that right?

8 A. Yes, according to intelligence reports.

9 Q. And that attack started at 8.00.

10 A. I think it started later.

11 Q. And it ended several hours after that.

12 A. I think it started in the afternoon, the attack on Strmac.

13 Q. Strmac is an elevation above Susanj, Brajkovici; is that right?

14 A. No. It is an elevation above the village of Grahovcici.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions of

17 this witness.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Does the Prosecution have any re-examination?

20 MR. STAMP: Just one or two questions, Mr. President.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

22 Q. You said -- you agreed with counsel who cross-examined you that

23 you mentioned the 7th Corps in your statement, and your evidence is that

24 the units that were involved in the attack belonged to the 3rd Corps.

25 Now, in your explanation, you said that the 7th Corps was formed from the

Page 4747

1 3rd Corps. Were the units or some of the units involved in the attack of

2 the 8th of June -- withdrawn. Withdrawn.

3 Does that mean, does that statement that you made earlier mean

4 that the units of the 7th -- some units of the 3rd Corps were later

5 incorporated into the 7th Corps?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But when you made your statement, you were not quite sure exactly

8 when the 7th Corps was established.

9 A. I wasn't sure. I assumed it was 1993 or 1994. That is what I

10 said.

11 Q. So logically if the 7th Corps was established after the 8th of

12 June, 1993, it follows that 7th Corps units could not have been involved

13 in the attack.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The learned friend has answered

15 the question --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the logic of the

17 Prosecution.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But the Prosecutor is not

19 the witness, and he has answered his own logical question. So I don't

20 think the witness should be allowed to answer that question.

21 MR. STAMP: I will respectfully say that it is essential that the

22 witness, since he has the opportunity, to be allowed to make a comment on

23 the logic, because it might explain the source of an error.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, put the question to

25 him in a clear manner so that the witness can answer it clearly, but don't

Page 4748

1 talk to him about a logic which is yours and which may not be his. So

2 what is important is that he answer your question and not the logic that

3 you feel that there is behind it. So ask him the question, and everyone

4 is awaiting his answer with impatience.

5 MR. STAMP:

6 Q. Witness, the real question is, and the simple question is: What

7 reason can you give to the Court for mentioning the 7th Brigade -- the 7th

8 Corps in your statement? Because that is not consistent with your

9 evidence today. How is it you came to say in your statement "the 7th

10 Corps"? That is what I want to get to.

11 A. Because that corps had its command in Travnik and because the

12 units from Travnik municipality and the broader area became part of that

13 7th Corps. Then it was formed.

14 Q. I understand that. Now, listen quite carefully to the question

15 I'm asking. I'm asking you to explain to the Court what reasons there may

16 be for saying in your statement that the 7th Corps was involved. That's

17 all I'm asking. When today you say it was all the 3rd Corps.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question is clear and it

19 has the merit of being synthetic. Think over the question put to you.

20 Think it over. Take your time before you answer it. The question is very

21 clear.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

23 question.

24 MR. STAMP:

25 Q. You agreed --

Page 4749

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, repeat the question

2 in the same clear way.

3 MR. STAMP: I'll try, Mr. President.

4 Q. You agreed that you said in your statement that the 7th Corps was

5 involved. Today in your evidence you have said it was all the 3rd Corps

6 was involved. Can you offer to us a reason why it is that you said "7th

7 Corps" when you gave your statement? Is there a reason for this error?

8 A. Because the reports I had at the time were such that the 3rd

9 Corps was formed prior to the offensive against our area, or rather, that

10 the 7th Corps had been established. I'm sorry.

11 Q. Well, you just said something quite new. Was the 7th Corps

12 established prior to or subsequent to the offensive of the 8th of June?

13 Can you recall?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

15 answered that at the time he had operative information that the 7th Corps

16 had already been formed, so I don't see what is unclear in the answer of

17 the witness to this question.

18 MR. STAMP: It is obviously unclear because it is not exactly

19 what he said earlier. He had said something quite different at an earlier

20 time. So he ought to be given an opportunity to clarify that.

21 Q. It's a simple question, Witness. Can you recall when the 7th

22 Brigade was formed? Was it formed before or after the 8th of June, 1993.

23 A. I told you a moment ago that I don't remember exactly when it was

24 formed. But the intelligence information that we had at our disposal

25 was --

Page 4750

1 Q. If you don't remember, you don't remember. Thank you very much.

2 MR. STAMP: I have nothing further. May it please you,

3 Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

5 Witness, your testimony is over. We overran our time a little.

6 But in view of the number of breaks, prompted either by the Prosecution or

7 the Defence, we took a little more time, and we apologise to the

8 interpreters for asking them to continue working more than normal.

9 You have answered the questions of the Prosecution. You have

10 answered the questions of the Defence, as well as questions from the

11 Judges. We wish to thank you for the effort you made to remember

12 developments in 1993, though this was a long time ago. Your testimony

13 took place under conditions described at the beginning of the hearing. We

14 wish you a safe journey home, hoping that you will be able to catch a

15 plane shortly. And thank you once again for your testimony.

16 I'm going to ask Madam Usher to lower the blinds so that the

17 witness can leave this courtroom.

18 Sir, you may now leave.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn to Mr. Withopf now, for

21 him to tell us the programme for next week.

22 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

23 counsel.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Withopf.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon.

Page 4751

1 Mr. President, Your Honours, as indicated in our recent

2 confidential witness schedule, we will have three witnesses for next week.

3 One witness will start on Monday; he will continue on Tuesday. There will

4 be a second witness start on Tuesday, who will continue on Wednesday. And

5 for Thursday and Friday, there will be another witness.

6 As already indicated, in some instances the Prosecution will take

7 longer for its examination-in-chief as in comparison to the Rule 65 ter

8 summary. Defence has already -- has also informed the Prosecution that

9 they may take substantially more time, as the Prosecution, for their

10 cross-examination. Therefore, for the next week only three witnesses are

11 scheduled.

12 We will provide today, Mr. President, Your Honours, Defence

13 counsel with a tentative schedule of all of our witnesses till the end of

14 May in order to enable Defence a proper -- for a proper preparation of the

15 cross-examination of such witnesses. However, I wish to emphasise it's a

16 tentative schedule only.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

18 Has the Defence any remarks to make? No?

19 In that case, I declare the hearing adjourned, and I invite the

20 parties and the accused to come back for the hearing on Monday, which will

21 begin at a quarter past 2.00. Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.07 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

24 March, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

25