Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5729

1 Tuesday, 20 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager, Ruth Karper.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 And the appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

17 Good morning, Your Honours. Appearing on behalf of General Enver

18 Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, lead counsel; Stephane Bourgon,

19 co-counsel; and Mirna Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

22 Mulalic, legal assistant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids

24 good morning to all those present, the representatives of the Office of

25 the Prosecutor, the attorneys, the accused, as well as all the staff of

Page 5730

1 this courtroom, and in particular our new registrar for today.

2 Yesterday during the status hearing, the question was raised

3 regarding the completion of the Prosecution case. It was indicated that

4 the Office of the Prosecutor would comply with the date the 1st of June

5 or beginning of June. The Chamber that reviewed this matter after the

6 hearing wishes to underline that that date which was indicated both

7 during the pre-trial and during the hearings is an approximate date. It

8 cannot be considered as a definitive one; since some witnesses were drawn

9 and others need to be heard subsequently, the Prosecution does have the

10 possibility of calling those witnesses or other witnesses in the course

11 of the month of June. I wish to underline that the 1st of June is not a

12 fixed date for closing the Prosecution case, it was an approximate date.

13 But in view of the presentation of the evidence, the witnesses, and the

14 documents, it is quite possible that this date may be moved by one, two,

15 or three weeks, depending on the needs of the Prosecution. Therefore, we

16 wish to reassure the Prosecution that the 1st of June was just a

17 provisional indication but does not necessarily mean the closing of the

18 case on that particular date.

19 We all have experiences with trials of this kind, and we know

20 that it is very difficult to stick to such fixed deadlines because some

21 witnesses are not available and because of other difficulties that may

22 arise. So it is quite possible to have extensions. And it is the

23 opinion of the Chamber that it should appeal to the parties to accept

24 this indication that the 1st of June is an approximation, and the Chamber

25 is quite prepared to postpone the closing date.

Page 5731

1 So, Mr. Withopf, do you have any remarks to make in that

2 connection?

3 MR. WITHOPF: Very briefly, Mr. President. As already indicated

4 yesterday, we are currently revisiting our witness list. Due to the fact

5 that a number of anticipated court days couldn't be used, it appears to

6 be likely that the Prosecution will need either the full month of June or

7 portions of the month of June for additional witnesses. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

9 As the Defence has no observations to make, we will begin today's

10 hearing with a witness. And I should like to ask Madam Usher to be kind

11 enough to bring the witness into the courtroom.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Let me

14 check first that you are hearing the interpretation in your own language.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a

17 witness for the Prosecution to testify about facts or events which took

18 place in 1993 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I need first to know your

19 identity, so will you please tell me your first and last name.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am Jasenko Eminovic.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you born, please?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 29th of September, 1971.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where? In what town or

24 village?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Travnik.

Page 5732

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

2 occupation?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am employed in the

4 non-governmental organisation World Vision.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993, that is, more than

6 ten years ago, what were you doing? What was your occupation or position

7 in those days?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the Municipal

9 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this municipal commission

11 was in which town?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the building?

13 It was in Travnik, in premises close to the municipal building,

14 the town hall.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you already

16 testified in court, or is this your first time to appear before an

17 international or a national tribunal?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time, today.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I need to hear you

20 read the solemn declaration. Will you be kind enough to do that, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5733

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to

2 representatives of the Prosecution for your examination-in-chief, it is

3 my duty to give you some information regarding the proceedings here. You

4 will be asked questions by representatives of the Chief Prosecutor and

5 representatives of the Prosecution are on your right. After these

6 questions, which may take one and a half to two hours, you will be asked

7 questions by the Defence attorneys, who are seated to your left.

8 Within the framework of this hearing, the three Judges in front

9 of you may at any point in time ask you questions if they see fit either

10 to clarify the answers you have given or to fill in any gaps that the

11 Judges may notice in the course of your testimony.

12 Furthermore, as you have read the solemn declaration, I need to

13 indicate that this excludes all possibility of lies or false testimony.

14 A witness must know that should he provide false testimony he could be

15 prosecuted for perjury and punished with a fine or a prison sentence or

16 both.

17 Furthermore - but this should not apply to you - if a witness in

18 his replies is prompted to provide evidence which could be used against

19 him, he may refuse to answer. In that case, the Chamber may compel him

20 to answer nevertheless, and the reply given upon the insistence of the

21 Chamber cannot be used to incriminate him but will -- he will be granted

22 certain immunity in that respect.

23 So those would be the general frameworks of this hearing. Try

24 and give full answers to the questions. If you don't understand a

25 question or if it seems to be complicated, ask the person putting it to

Page 5734

1 you to rephrase it. As this is a purely oral hearing, it is very

2 important that the answers of the witnesses should be clear and precise

3 to inform the Judges properly. Should there be any difficulty of any

4 kind, please let us know and the Judges in front of you will deal with

5 it.

6 I turn now to the representative of the Prosecution, who is going

7 to begin with the examination-in-chief. Madam Benjamin, you have the

8 floor.

9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

10 Your Honours. Good morning, Mr. Eminovic.

11 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

12 Q. You indicated to the Trial Chamber that you were born in the

13 village of Travnik. Could you tell us which municipality Travnik is

14 located in, please.

15 A. The municipality of Travnik.

16 Q. Could you give the Trial Chamber a breakdown of the ethnic

17 composition of your village of Travnik.

18 A. Travnik is not a village. It's a town.

19 Q. Correction, the town of Travnik.

20 A. Are you asking me about the population composition before the

21 war?

22 Q. Yes, please.

23 A. As far as I know, before the war there was roughly an equal

24 number of Bosniaks and Croats, perhaps slightly more Bosniaks, in the

25 territory of Travnik municipality and about 20 or so per cent were Serbs.

Page 5735

1 Q. And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could you tell us the

2 relationship that existed among the villagers in the town of Travnik

3 prior to the conflict.

4 A. I can speak about my own relationships and my immediate family

5 members' with the people of other ethnicities. And in those days, we had

6 highly harmonious relations. We socialised. And there were no problems

7 whatsoever linked to anybody's ethnicity.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eminovic. Could you state for the Trial Chamber

9 if you did compulsory service with the JNA and for what period, please.

10 A. I did not do my compulsory military service in the JNA, but I

11 completed the military secondary school from 1986 to 1990, and I attended

12 the military academy anti-aircraft defence department from 1990 to 1992.

13 Q. Aside from your service in 1990 to 1992, subsequent to that, were

14 you enlisted or registered in any other military body or any -- did you

15 work for any service?

16 A. No. I was a member of the reserve force of the Ministry of

17 Internal Affairs and a member of the Municipal Commission for the

18 Exchange of Prisoners of War.

19 Q. Mr. Eminovic, could you, then, tell the Trial Chamber what was

20 your rank then and your duties.

21 A. In that period I had no rank. And in the Commission for

22 Exchanges, I prepared lists of POWs. I prepared their exchange. I

23 worked on a database for missing persons from the territory of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina. I took statements from persons expelled from the region of

25 Bosanska Krajina regarding the circumstances of war crimes and genocide.

Page 5736

1 Those would roughly be my activities.

2 Q. Would I be correct in saying, then, that your duties were

3 basically of an administrative nature?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please state for the Trial Chamber who or whom were you

6 subordinated to.

7 A. I was subordinated to Salko Beba, who was the president of the

8 municipal exchange commission.

9 Q. And do you know who Salko Beba was subordinated to?

10 A. Salko was subordinated to the state Commission for the Exchange

11 of Prisoners of War.

12 Q. Mr. Eminovic, could you please describe for the Trial Chamber

13 what took place in particular to Guca Gora during your tenure with the

14 commission. Could you tell us some of your observations, please. And

15 sorry, between January 1993 to March 1994. Thank you.

16 A. As far as I know, nothing was happening in Guca Gora from

17 January -- no, sorry. Sorry. Sometime in the summer of 1993, Salko Beba

18 and I went to Guca Gora and we saw that at the monastery in Guca Gora

19 there were some inscriptions in Arabic. We received that information, I

20 don't remember from whom, and we tried to paint over those graffiti in

21 white so that the priests in the monastery would not suffer mentally

22 because of this.

23 Q. Could you elaborate for us what was your reason for going to the

24 monastery.

25 A. We had received information that the monastery had been

Page 5737

1 desecrated; I don't know from whom. We got into a car and went up there,

2 and we saw the graffiti in Arabic. After that, we took some paint and

3 started to paint over those graffiti.

4 Q. Aside from the monastery, would you be able to assist the Trial

5 Chamber with what Guca Gora looked like to you during that period. How

6 did it appear?

7 A. The road between Travnik and Guca Gora was covered by HVO fire,

8 which means that there was shooting along the road. And upon arrival in

9 Guca Gora, I saw smoke coming from a couple of houses. I saw members of

10 the 306th Brigade securing the monastery.

11 Q. [Microphone not activated] Specifically to the Croat area in Guca

12 Gora, would you be able to assist us with how the area looked?

13 A. Guca Gora is a Croatian village, and to the best of my knowledge

14 it was 100 per cent Croat.

15 Q. And could you describe the terrain for us, the village during the

16 period summer 1993, during the conflict. How did the village look to

17 you?

18 A. As I said a moment ago, it looked as usual, except for the fact

19 there was smoke coming from two or three houses and that the monastery

20 had been damaged.

21 Q. From your experience, could you tell the Trial Chamber: In the

22 town of Travnik, were you able to see different military bodies? Were

23 they active in the town of Travnik? Were there any military bodies

24 active in the town of Travnik in 1993?

25 A. In 1993, the command of the 17th Krajina Brigade was based in

Page 5738

1 Travnik, the command of the operations group as well. The command of the

2 312th Brigade too.

3 Q. And in particular, any other military bodies or any other bodies

4 that --

5 A. As far as I know, no.

6 Q. I'm going to be specific. Have you ever heard the term

7 "Mujahedins"?

8 A. I have.

9 Q. Do you know what a Mujahedin looks like?

10 A. As far as what I saw is concerned, they were citizens of

11 different countries. They wore beards, and their trousers were ankle

12 length.

13 Q. And did you see these people in the summer of 1993 in the town of

14 Travnik?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. So in fact you did see other military bodies, other bodies

17 besides the 306th and -- you saw Mujahedin, did you?

18 A. They were not members of the military organisation.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] There's no need for me to object

20 because the question referred to something the witness hadn't said.

21 However, the witness himself has responded adequately.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I accept what my friend says,

24 even though I disagree, but I'll move on.

25 Q. While you were a member of the commission, as far as you know,

Page 5739

1 were there any investigations carried out into the beatings of any

2 prisoners at all?

3 A. I don't know.

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is -- this

5 concludes the examination-in-chief of this witness.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Benjamin.

7 The Judges will have questions, but we will put our questions at

8 the end of the cross-examination.

9 I give the floor to Defence counsel.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask

11 you to give me more time than was used by the Prosecution, since I

12 prepared my questions on the basis of previous statements and a

13 conversation that I had with the witness while preparing for this trial.

14 So I would like to ask you to grant me more time than the Prosecution

15 used for their examination.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Eminovic, good morning. As you know, I am

18 Edina Residovic and I am representing General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

19 Is it true that you gave your statement to the Office of the

20 Prosecutor on the 11th and 14th of November, 2003?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. This is a statement that you signed in English, didn't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it also true that we met in Sarajevo last week?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5740

1 Q. We spoke about what you knew during your stay in Travnik in 1993.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you just said

4 that in 1993 you were mobilised to the reserve force of the police; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. The reserve police force was within the MUP of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina and it was directly subordinated to the Ministry of the

9 Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Within the framework of the Ministry of the Interior, there was

12 the public and state security services; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In fact, the State Security Service collected information about

15 war crimes committed; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you said that you

18 became a member of the Commission for Exchange in Travnik municipality in

19 1993; is that right?

20 A. I became a member in 1992.

21 Q. I apologise. Then I misheard. So in 1992.

22 You were appointed to that position by the War Presidency of

23 Travnik municipality; is that right?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. The War Presidency in Travnik acted as the municipal assembly and

Page 5741












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5742

1 was an organ of civilian authority; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The War Presidency formed a Commission for Exchange in accordance

4 with a decision of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina dated 1992,

5 whereby a state commission was organised at the level of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina. And it was decided that similar commissions should be

7 formed in the municipalities. Was that the basis for the formation of

8 your own commission?

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. In view of the activities you engaged in, you know that in

11 mid-1993 in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina bodies were set up which were

12 designed to take care of the exchange of killed and captured members of

13 the army; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As a member of the state commission, you cooperated with the

16 commission formed within the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Answering questions by my learned friend, you said that Salko

20 Beba was president of this state commission for the municipality of

21 Travnik; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it true that Salko Beba was at the same time an employee in

24 the State Security Service of the Ministry of the Interior?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5743

1 Q. Since the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was in the process of

2 formation in 1993, is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that internal affairs

3 bodies - that is, the police - endeavoured in various ways, in terms of

4 personnel and finance, to assist in training security organs and the

5 military police within the brigades and the operative group in Travnik?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you aware that sometime in mid-1993, Salko Beba in addition

8 to the duties he had that you mentioned, also took over a part of the

9 duties in the security organ of the Operative Group Bosanska Krajina?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is it also true that after that period of time, in view of the

12 fact that you worked with him in the state commission as part of the

13 cooperation between MUP and the security organs, you also assisted him in

14 some of his activities linked to the Operations Group Bosanska Krajina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As you assisted Salko Beba in a part of his duties, you were able

17 to learn of certain orders issued by the corps demanding strict

18 observance of the Geneva Conventions and the protection of the civilian

19 population and religious sites. Within the framework of the activities

20 you engaged in on behalf of Salko Beba, did you have any such knowledge

21 about these things?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Eminovic, that the security organs and the

24 military police of the operations group endeavoured to implement or

25 comply with those orders as much as possible? Do you have any knowledge

Page 5744

1 about that?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown two

4 documents, please, which have been identified. 63 ID, a document of the

5 Defence, and 65 ID [as interpreted].

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have been mentioned -- 63 and

7 65 ID. I believe that you said 64 ID.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 64 ID.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 64 ID. So it's 64 and 65 ID.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Eminovic, could you please look at these two documents.

12 Mr. Eminovic, are these orders which you learnt about when

13 partially assisting Mr. Salko Beba within the frameworks of the security

14 bodies?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness

17 has recognised the documents and pronounced himself about them, I think

18 it is the right time to give these documents a number.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please, Madam Usher,

20 bring these documents to us.

21 So there is document ID 64, an order coming from the 3rd Corps of

22 June 10th, 1993: "Measures against looting and destruction of

23 properties." And document of June 19, 65, which has to do with the

24 arrest of civilians, destruction, looting of property. So which -- what

25 are the observations of the Prosecution concerning these two documents

Page 5745

1 which have been recognised by the witness?

2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, no objections.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And which have been in fact

4 taken by the Office of the Prosecution, because they have a number.

5 64 will become definitive, and 65, definitive, both concerning

6 the B/C/S version and the English translation.

7 Please continue.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. In response to the Prosecution, you said that your job - I

10 apologise, that is the question of the President - you said that you

11 worked in the Commission for Exchange in a building near the municipality

12 building. Can I interpret you correctly when you say that after being

13 appointed to the security service of the operations group, Salko Beba

14 also had an office within the JNA barracks in Travnik?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it also true that you by helping Salko Beba occasionally, when

17 need be, you also -- you would also come to his office in -- within the

18 frameworks of the JNA barracks?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it also true that in your statement to the Prosecution you

21 said that on one occasion you saw some soldiers who had arrested a Croat

22 prisoner -- a prisoner and that they exerted force against him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It was Krunoslav Bonic; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5746

1 Q. Is it true that you prevented the soldiers from mistreating this

2 HVO member and that at the time the soldiers had told you that they had

3 caught him -- captured him during the fighting and that he had in his bag

4 the ears of one of their fighters who had been previously killed? Is

5 that true?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true that you had taken Mr. Bonic in order to protect him

8 from the frustrated soldiers and to take from him a statement about the

9 circumstances of his capture and about what he had been told by the

10 mentioned soldiers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true that that prisoner, the HVO soldier, did he personally

13 tell you that the HVO paid every soldier 200 German marks if he brought

14 the ears or any part of the bodies of one of the enemy soldiers?

15 A. I was told 200 for the ears. I don't know about the other parts

16 of bodies.

17 Q. Is it true that you submitted this answer to the State Security

18 and that subsequently criminal charges had been brought against Bonic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Personally -- you did not personally charge the soldier who

21 mistreated Bonic because you thought that he did this in a moment of

22 passion and that you by your action, you prevented any infliction of

23 injury to that soldier.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that as part of your duties in the

Page 5747

1 commission, that you were bound by the Geneva Conventions and by the

2 orders issued by the state bodies, military bodies as well, in the sense

3 of collection of information about possible commission of war crimes?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In response to the answer of the -- to a question of the

6 Prosecution, you said that you had basically been collecting information

7 from people that had been expelled or exchanged in the territory of

8 Bosanska Krajina, that is, persons that had been expelled by the Army of

9 Republika Srpska.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Will I interpret you correctly if I say that in your statement to

12 the Prosecution you mentioned one of these cases, the killing of about

13 200 prisoners in Vlasic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that at the time in Travnik there were

16 very few people who knew anything about the Geneva Conventions?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was very difficult to come to the text of the Geneva

19 Conventions and for quite some time there was no need for its

20 implementation; is that true?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. However, some information about the Geneva Conventions you had

23 received while you were at the military high school and the military

24 academy, and you had been engaged to lecture and train about the Geneva

25 Conventions to the military police of the Operations Group Bosanska

Page 5748

1 Krajina; is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In so doing, you used some documents that were submitted to the

4 operations group and the brigade by the 3rd Corps.

5 A. [No interpretation]

6 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that your work as well as the work of

7 the security-service bodies evolved under very difficult conditions?

8 Could you -- is it true that you used documents which were

9 submitted to the operations group and the brigade given by the 3rd Corps?

10 Is that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that all these duties were carried out

13 under very difficult conditions when we had -- when you had no material

14 for taking statements? There was no paper, and very often you did this

15 by hand.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that from all persons who knew about

18 the commission of war crimes, did you take statements from them in the

19 same way; but since most of the people coming to Travnik who were

20 expelled Bosniaks, these statements were taken from the Bosniaks who had

21 such knowledge?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The Prosecution asked you about your visit to Guca Gora. I would

24 like to ask you, since you told the Prosecution that you don't know from

25 where you received the information about the desecration of the convent,

Page 5749

1 can you tell -- monastery -- do you know whether the Croat mass media

2 published information as to the burning of the monastery? Did you hear

3 about that?

4 A. Until then, I hadn't access to the mass media. But photographs

5 of the monastery had been published in some of the Croatian papers. I

6 saw that afterwards in 1995.

7 Q. Thank you. The information that you received about the

8 monastery, Salko Beba reacted to that information as assistant security

9 person, and you went along with him in that capacity and not in the

10 capacity of a member of the commission; is that true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In front of the monastery, as you said, you saw members of the

13 306th Brigade. Was that the military police of the 306th Brigade?

14 A. As far as I can recollect, yes, they were securing the monastery.

15 Q. You also said that you saw graffiti on the walls in Arabic

16 script. Is it true that the military police had informed you that that

17 graffiti and the damages onto the monastery were carried out by the

18 Mujahedin and that they were ordered subsequently to secure and safeguard

19 the monastery?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In response to the question of the Prosecution, you saw that

22 some -- from some of the houses in Guca Gora smoke was coming out. You

23 didn't know who had set fire to these houses and when this had taken

24 place.

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 5750

1 Q. In carrying out the orders that you confirmed having seen, you

2 knew that the military police had been securing the church in Travnik.

3 Is that so?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you aware that when carrying out orders about protection of

6 property, the military police and the security bodies where Mr. Salko was

7 employed in 1993 pressed several scores of criminal charges against

8 people who had been destroying property and carrying out -- committing

9 other crimes to the detriment of the Croat population? Is that true?

10 A. Yes. I believe that this had been done, been -- carried out by

11 the military police.

12 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that at the time you personally working

13 as a member of the state commission and partially as a member of the

14 reserve forces, you did not press criminal charges for war crimes for

15 some members of the army because you never had any knowledge that the

16 members of the army had carried out such offences?

17 A. Yes.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Eminovic.

19 I have no further questions for this witness.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 The other Defence counsel.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

23 have no questions for this witness.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Judges are going

25 to ask you a few questions for the sake of clarification.

Page 5751

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, I should like

3 the know exactly what your position was in relation to the 3rd Corps.

4 You said at the beginning that you were appointed to the reserve force of

5 the Ministry of the Interior and that you were assigned to the Commission

6 for the Exchange of Prisoners, depending on the municipality. And then

7 later on during the questions put to you by the Prosecution and the

8 Defence, we find that you were the deputy of Salko Beba who himself was

9 the deputy commander of the Operations Group Krajina.

10 So it would appear, according to what emerged, that there was a

11 mixture between civilian and military activities. So could you please

12 clarify your position in relation to the military of the BiH. When you

13 were performing your duties in the exchange commission, were you in

14 uniform or were you wearing civilian clothes?

15 A. When I was working in the exchange commission, I wore civilian

16 clothes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And when you

18 assisted the army, you were in civilian clothes or in military uniform?

19 A. In military uniform.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There we are.

21 You have in front of you professional Judges who are accustomed

22 to the testimony of witnesses, and we noticed from the beginning that you

23 were very reticent in answering questions and you limited to -- yourself

24 to giving minimum answers. Now we are moving forward, and we learn now

25 that you were at times wearing military uniform. And when you were in

Page 5752

1 those clothes, who were you subordinated to in the military chain of

2 command?

3 A. Salko Beba.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what rank did Salko Beba

5 have in the army?

6 A. He didn't have a rank.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But he was wearing military

8 uniform?

9 A. Yes, when he was working in the operations group.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when he was in the

11 operations group -- and you worked with him within this operations group,

12 didn't you? You worked with him.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you yourself contribute to

15 the drafting of military-type orders?

16 A. As I said earlier on, I assisted him mostly in administrative

17 work. And very rarely did I go into the field - almost never - with

18 members of the army. This was more assistance in --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you -- when you went to

20 Guca Gora with him, that was within a military context and not a civilian

21 one, was it?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You answered a question from

24 the Defence by saying -- or rather, confirming a very long question, and

25 that is that it was the military police that informed you that there were

Page 5753

1 inscriptions written by the Mujahedin. Is that what you said a moment

2 ago?

3 A. That is what I said just now, that military policemen and the

4 priest told us that it had been done by the Mujahedin.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because you talked to the

6 priest who was present; right?

7 A. I just exchanged greetings with him, and then Salko Beba

8 continued to talk to him.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the priest, did he demand

10 that the person who did this should be identified? What did the priest

11 say to Salko Beba that you overheard?

12 A. I wasn't present. I went to paint over the walls. But as far as

13 I can remember, Salko Beba went inside with the priest into the

14 monastery. So I wasn't there.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As part of your duty which

16 appeared to be of an intellectual nature, it seems to be astonishing that

17 someone of your level with the military academy should take a brush and a

18 pot of paint to paint over an inscription. Did you do this upon an order

19 given to you or spontaneously, of your own free will?

20 A. I did so of my own free will, as I was brought up to believe that

21 nobody should suffer mental pain. Nobody should be made to suffer.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that means that when you

23 came to Guca Gora you didn't come on foot, obviously; you came in a

24 vehicle. And in this vehicle, there was a pot of paint and a brush?

25 Where did the paint come from? I wish to remind you that you have taken

Page 5754












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Page 5755

1 the solemn declaration to tell the whole truth. Where did the paint come

2 from?

3 A. Some 15 days prior to this incident, Salko Beba and I had been

4 painting the office of the municipal exchange commission and the pot of

5 paint was left behind, and we put this paint into the boot of the car and

6 drove to the monastery.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not going to trouble you

8 with questions which would indicate the opposite of what you're just

9 saying. So you're telling us that you put a pot of paint in the car,

10 which means that when you were on your way there one of you, at least,

11 knew that something needed to be painted. Is that what we need to gather

12 from what you're saying?

13 A. Salko Beba knew that the graffiti had been written and we

14 immediately set off. We knew that the monastery had been desecrated. I

15 don't know where the information had come from but we had that

16 information, that this had been done at the monastery.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Another

18 question in another area: You said a moment ago that you were working in

19 a non-governmental organisation. What are you actually doing now?

20 A. I am now working in a non-governmental organisation called World

21 Vision, and I am the head of their office in Sarajevo. It's an

22 organisation which engages in aid and development in Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this organisation is

25 financed on what basis? You're an employee, a remunerated employee of

Page 5756

1 that organisation?

2 A. Yes. It's a non- -- international non-governmental organisation

3 financed through international grants and private donations worldwide.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Another point that

5 may not be clear: You told us that you attended the military academy,

6 and one may wonder why upon completing military academy you did not

7 become a full military officer. Why were you not integrated in the armed

8 forces directly as a military man? Whereas through your answers we learn

9 that you wore a uniform only occasionally. How come that upon leaving

10 the military academy you did not become a full military officer?

11 A. I didn't complete the military academy. The war interrupted my

12 education. I was on my second year of the academy.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But had you completed the full

14 course at the academy, what rank would you have received?

15 A. Second lieutenant.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Do you have any questions?

18 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness. I would like to ask you

19 some additional questions on what you said this morning.

20 I understand you had two different functions: On the one hand,

21 you were engaged in the exchange of prisoners of war; and on the other

22 hand, you were -- did also other things for the benefit of Mr. Beba, as a

23 sort of assistant to him. Now, the first aspect of what you did in 1993

24 was you were engaged in the exchange of prisoners between the warring

25 parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did this mainly concern exchanges between

Page 5757

1 Croatian army and official Bosnian army?

2 A. No. Mostly we dealt with the exchange of prisoners of war and

3 taking care of persons expelled from Bosnian Krajina, and exchange of

4 prisoners between the Army of Republika Srpska and the Army of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE SWART: You were based in Travnik. What kind of troops --

7 Serbian troops were engaged there? What kind of prisoners from the

8 Serbians, the Serbian army, did you have?

9 A. Around Travnik several brigades of the Army of Republika Srpska

10 were deployed, and there would be prisoners from the Army of Republika

11 Srpska who were from the broader area of Travnik municipality; and then

12 there were exchanges between the Army of Republika Srpska -- or rather,

13 no, not -- between the presidents of the Commissions for Exchange of

14 Republika Srpska and our own commission.

15 However, the greatest part of the activities had to do with

16 taking care of people expelled from Bosanska Krajina. Also, prisoners of

17 war, members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, may have been

18 captured on other fronts and they would also be exchanged in Travnik. So

19 there were exchanges of prisoners from Batkovic camp, Omarska, Keraterm,

20 and there were even some from Brcko.

21 JUDGE SWART: So this covered a large part of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 at the time.

23 A. Officially not, but because there was cooperation between

24 exchange commissions that was well developed, it was easiest to carry out

25 the exchanges in that area.

Page 5758

1 JUDGE SWART: And the prisoners that you exchanged, that you

2 brought to the other party in exchange for prisoners from the other

3 party, were they -- these prisoners detained in Travnik or other parts of

4 the area dominated by the Bosnian army?

5 A. Very rarely were they detained in Travnik -- or rather, I have no

6 knowledge of that because there was no such institution in Travnik.

7 Prisoners of war came from the prison in Zenica, the KP Dom. They were

8 escorted by the military police to the place of the exchange and also

9 accompanied by UNPROFOR.

10 JUDGE SWART: Were there other places where they came from? You

11 said Zenica and you said -- well, mainly Zenica.

12 A. As far as I can remember, there were no other places except

13 Zenica. But the bodies of killed fighters were exchanged in any places.

14 They were usually kept in places where there were necessary conditions

15 for that, large refrigeration units in hospitals. So we did our best to

16 exchange bodies of killed fighters as quickly as possible.

17 JUDGE SWART: Before prisoners of war were being exchanged by the

18 Bosnian army or by the other party, did you interview them yourself? Did

19 you have any meetings with them?

20 A. No. This was done by the military security bodies.

21 JUDGE SWART: So you didn't see them physically.

22 A. I would see them physically when they were actually being

23 exchanged, or rather, transported to the spot where they would be

24 exchanged.

25 JUDGE SWART: Would there be reports about them, about their

Page 5759

1 condition or about other circumstances concerning them?

2 A. They were registered by the International Red Cross.

3 JUDGE SWART: Did you read the reports on them?

4 A. I did not have access to such reports, as that was the

5 discretionary right of the International Red Cross.

6 JUDGE SWART: You said that to your knowledge there were no

7 prisoners of war detained in Travnik. Nevertheless, you told us about a

8 certain Croatian soldier, Bonic, whom you met, if I understood you well,

9 in the barracks of Travnik. Is that correct?

10 A. He was detained. And as soon as charges were put, he was

11 transferred to the Zenica prison. He wasn't held there for any length of

12 time.

13 JUDGE SWART: But you saw him in Travnik.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE SWART: And this was in the barracks?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE SWART: What was the occasion when you saw him?

18 A. He was arrested that same day, and ears were found on him, ears

19 that had been cut off from the head of a Bosnian army fighter.

20 JUDGE SWART: In what capacity were you in the barracks when you

21 saw this incident?

22 A. I was assisting Salko Beba. I was in the office of Mr. Salko

23 Beba and we received information that a member of the HVO, a 16-year-old

24 boy, had been arrested on whom ears had been found that had been cut off

25 of a Bosnian combatant.

Page 5760

1 JUDGE SWART: Did you often go to the barracks in order to meet

2 Mr. Beba or did you have a room of your own there?

3 A. No, I didn't have a room of my own there. It would most often be

4 once or twice a week when I would spend a couple of hours in the premises

5 of the exchange commission.

6 JUDGE SWART: Was the exchange commission sitting -- having a

7 seat there in the JNA barracks in Travnik?

8 A. No. The exchange commission was accommodated in a building some

9 50 metres from the municipal building in Travnik.

10 JUDGE SWART: Then I do not quite understand your reason for

11 visiting the barracks. You said you were there to meet -- to have a

12 meeting with Beba. You mentioned in this respect the exchange

13 commission. But the exchange commission was having a seat somewhere

14 else. So please explain to me what were -- what was the purpose of your

15 visit to Beba in the JNA barracks.

16 A. To discuss future activities linked to the exchange commission;

17 to assist him in administrative work linked to his own work in the

18 operations group, to exchange information with him.

19 JUDGE SWART: Did you -- when you were visiting Beba in the JNA

20 barracks, did you have other contacts with other prisoners who were held

21 there?

22 A. No.

23 JUDGE SWART: How came it that you saw the incident about Bonic?

24 A. Because I received information. I was in Beba's office at the

25 time. One of the combatants came and told us that this man had been

Page 5761

1 arrested, and I went immediately to the detention place to see what was

2 going on.

3 JUDGE SWART: So you were aware that prisoners of war were being

4 held in the JNA barracks. Bonic was an example.

5 A. Bonic was the first example that I saw.

6 JUDGE SWART: But his presence indicated that there were

7 prisoners of war there, or -- isn't that the case?

8 A. I wouldn't agree with you, because that day, probably an hour or

9 an hour and a half before that, he had been arrested and it was not

10 possible to transport him anywhere else except there. So probably that

11 was the safest place to keep him until he was transported to the Zenica

12 prison.

13 JUDGE SWART: Are you saying in effect that you were not aware of

14 other prisoners of war in Travnik at the JNA barracks?

15 A. No. They may have been kept there for a day or two until

16 statements were taken from them. And as soon as criminal charges were

17 put, they would be transported to Zenica. Because this wasn't a prison;

18 this was a detention on remand, a temporary detention area and it was of

19 such a capacity that it couldn't be used as a prison. It was mostly used

20 to accommodate members of the army who had committed offences.

21 JUDGE SWART: You said that besides being engaged in the exchange

22 of prisoners you also did other things for Mr. Beba. On questions of the

23 President, you told us also that on occasion you had a military uniform.

24 Could you tell us something more about the other functions you fulfilled

25 as an assistant to Mr. Beba. My first question is: Were you appointed

Page 5762

1 officially as an assistant?

2 A. No. I wasn't appointed officially as his assistant, nor as a

3 member of the operations group. I was a member of the exchange

4 commission. And as the operations group did not have sufficient

5 capability at the time, they needed assistance of any kind.

6 JUDGE SWART: So this was a practical agreement between Mr. Beba

7 and you, or between the exchange commission and Mr. Beba.

8 A. Between me and Mr. Beba.

9 JUDGE SWART: How much time did it take, this work for Mr. Beba?

10 A. You mean in the operations group?

11 JUDGE SWART: On average each week.

12 A. In the exchange commission, I spent most of my time. A couple of

13 times during the week we would meet in the operations group. We would

14 spend a couple of hours working together on administrative matters in

15 which he needed assistance. There were no working hours during the war.

16 There were days when we worked for 20 hours on end, and there were others

17 when we worked less, but never less than 12 or 13 hours.

18 JUDGE SWART: I do not get a clear picture, I must say. I was

19 simply asking you how much part of your time were you doing for -- work

20 for Mr. Beba in another capacity, then, as a member of assistant of the

21 exchange commission. What was the most important part of your work?

22 A. I understand the question now. A moment ago the question wasn't

23 so clear to me; that is why my answer wasn't so clear. I said that I

24 worked for a couple of hours two or three times a week with Mr. Beba,

25 linked to matters in the operations group. These were administrative

Page 5763

1 matters such as the writing of orders; organisation of transports or

2 something like that; work on training members of the military police

3 company.

4 JUDGE SWART: And this was the capacity under which you and Beba

5 visits Guca Gora? You were not there as a member of the exchange of

6 prisoners commission, I suppose.

7 A. That's correct.

8 JUDGE SWART: You said something about drawing orders for

9 Mr. Beba. What kind of orders could that be?

10 A. These were mainly orders relating to the activities of the

11 military police company.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, it may be the time for a break. The

14 Prosecution, however, very respectfully, due to the answers the witness

15 has given in cross-examination, asks for a longer break of maybe one and

16 a half hours, please, to prepare for the re-examination of the witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Withopf, you

18 would like a one and a half hour break or a half-hour break?

19 MR. WITHOPF: If possible - and I think it should be possible,

20 since there's no other witness scheduled for today - at least an hour.

21 There are a number of issues that came up in cross-examination we have to

22 address in re-examination.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will resume the

24 hearing at half past 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

Page 5764

1 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges will continue with

3 their questions.

4 I give the floor, therefore, to Judge Swart, who will continue

5 with his questions.

6 JUDGE SWART: We were discussing your activities as an assistant

7 of Mr. Beba before the break, and you said, among other things, that you

8 were doing administrative work for him, and as an example you mentioned

9 the drafting of orders for the military police.

10 My next question would be: Have you also been involved in

11 drafting reports for Mr. Beba?

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE SWART: Have you been engaged in drafting correspondence

14 for Mr. Beba?

15 A. I don't remember that.

16 JUDGE SWART: What do you remember of your activities in general,

17 apart from drafting orders?

18 A. In addition to that, we would discuss the activities of the

19 exchange commission. In those days, there was a large influx of refugees

20 and exiles from the region of Bosnian Krajina. And we agreed on our

21 cooperation with UNPROFOR, with the International Red Cross.

22 JUDGE SWART: You said before the break that you were engaged in

23 work for Mr. Beba apart from your role as a participant in the exchange

24 commission for prisoners. And you said that each week -- or each now and

25 then you spent a number of hours working for Mr. Beba on another topic

Page 5765

1 than related to the exchange of prisoners. And that's what my question

2 is about. As an example, you mentioned drafting orders for the military

3 police. And my question is: What else?

4 A. I said that several times during the week I would spend two or

5 three hours a day working with Mr. Beba. In addition to orders, I was

6 involved in the training of the military police.

7 JUDGE SWART: Some other things?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE SWART: So drafting orders and teaching the military

10 police. That was your activities for Mr. Beba, apart from the exchange

11 of prisoners.

12 A. Correct.

13 JUDGE SWART: Tell me -- thank you. Tell me something more about

14 your teaching job. You teached the international humanitarian law, the

15 Convention of Geneva, to the military police. How many military

16 policemen did you teach? In what period? For how long? Tell us

17 something about it.

18 A. This was the teaching of military police from the crime

19 department of the military police company. So there were about four or

20 five military policemen in that department who had higher qualifications

21 and who collected information. They took statements from witnesses.

22 They collected information about criminal activities by members of the

23 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24 In addition to that, I also engaged in teaching them about

25 military topography and infantry weapons.

Page 5766

1 JUDGE SWART: So all in all you teached some four or five members

2 of the military police, higher-ranking persons within the hierarchy. How

3 many lessons did you give them on international humanitarian law?

4 A. All in all, this was about ten hours of work with them, regarding

5 those issues.

6 JUDGE SWART: You mean solely on the law of war? Not also on the

7 other topics you mentioned?

8 A. Just the laws of war.

9 JUDGE SWART: What was the purpose of your teaching them

10 international humanitarian law? Was it to interview persons who had been

11 expelled from other parts of Bosnia, or were there other reasons?

12 A. The purpose was for them to be able to perform their duties as

13 professionally as possible in accordance with standards and without any

14 prejudice when it came to collecting information; making sure they had

15 respect for the person they were interviewing, that they wouldn't

16 humiliate them, regardless of whether it was a member of the Army of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina or a member of some other military forces.

18 JUDGE SWART: Do you know other things about teaching

19 international humanitarian law to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 Were there many teachers like you, or were you the only one?

21 A. For these policemen, I was the one who taught them; that is, the

22 four or five policemen. As for others, I don't know. I know that there

23 was an order issued by the 3rd Corps on respect for the Geneva

24 Conventions and the laws and customs of war.

25 JUDGE SWART: To come back to something else that you said before

Page 5767












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Page 5768

1 the break. You mentioned the drafting of orders demanding respect for

2 the Geneva Conventions, and you said at a given moment - if I have noted

3 down it correctly; otherwise, you should correct me - that to your

4 knowledge the security agencies and military police endeavoured to

5 implement and comply with those orders as much as possible. Is that a

6 correct statement of what you said?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE SWART: A little bit later you mentioned as an example Guca

9 Gora, where you have witnessed the fact that the church there, which you

10 had visited, was protected by the Bosnian army against new violations, I

11 suppose. My question is the following: Your statement is very general

12 and you have given an example of Guca Gora. Do you know about other

13 examples?

14 A. The Catholic church in Travnik was also under the protection of

15 the military and civilian police in Travnik.

16 JUDGE SWART: Have you witnessed that or do you know that from

17 another source?

18 A. I saw it in passing. I saw members of the military and civilian

19 police guarding the Catholic church in Travnik. The church is in the

20 centre of town. So that all passers-by could see that it was being

21 guarded.

22 JUDGE SWART: But your statement is more general than the

23 protection of cultural property; or isn't it?

24 A. Yes, of course.

25 JUDGE SWART: So please explain. How do you know about the other

Page 5769

1 aspects of respect for international humanitarian law? For example, the

2 treatment of prisoners.

3 A. I was engaged teaching these four or five military policemen as

4 to how a statement should be taken professionally, without any kind of

5 bias or without trying to treat a captured member of a different force in

6 any other way except as provided for by the Geneva Conventions. The

7 training was done in such a way that prisoners of war should be given

8 protection. Statements should be taken from them regarding the events

9 and the circumstances surrounding a war crime, and that the proceedings

10 should be continued in accordance with the law. At the same time, it was

11 emphasised that prisoners of war must be registered by the International

12 Red Cross and that they should be able to communicate freely with

13 representatives of the International Red Cross at all times.

14 JUDGE SWART: But that, Witness, is the theory, and you know that

15 as well as I do. It doesn't necessarily say that the practice is in

16 conformity. And that was what your statement implied.

17 You said - and this is also why I ask this - that you were doing

18 administrative work. If you're doing administrative work, then the

19 question arises: How did you know that the practice is in conformity

20 with international law? You don't need to comment on this, but if you

21 want to, please go ahead.

22 A. As far as the practice is concerned, I didn't have access to all

23 information linked to activities on the ground, so I cannot confirm this.

24 But confirmation of what I saw was what I saw in Guca Gora and the church

25 in Travnik. These are things that I witnessed with my own eyes, and

Page 5770

1 there's no dilemma about that.

2 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Eminovic, I must remind you

4 that you have pled to tell the whole truth. And when you're asked a

5 question, you will tell us the truth.

6 I have a few more remaining questions for you. Within the

7 framework of the exchange of prisoners, was there an instance when during

8 the prisoner exchange you learnt of Mujahedin prisoners being exchanged

9 for HVO soldiers? Were there any exchanges of that type to the best of

10 your knowledge?

11 A. As far as I know, there weren't.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us that all

13 prisoner exchanges that you contributed to or you were involved in had to

14 do solely either with soldiers of the BH army or soldiers of the HVO. Is

15 that right?

16 A. And soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska. Most of them, in

17 fact.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in most cases, you had

19 exchanges for Serb prisoners; is that right?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, as far as you know,

22 according to you there were never exchanges of HVO soldiers for

23 foreigners.

24 A. Correct.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall now give

Page 5771

1 the floor to the Defence for their questions. I shall also give the

2 floor to the Prosecution.

3 I must recall that the Appeals Chamber recently rendered a

4 decision regarding the refreshment of the memory of a witness. When a

5 witness forgets passages from his written statement, then the Prosecution

6 may show him that written statement to jog his memory. And if it is a

7 hostile witness, then the Prosecution is entitled to submit all previous

8 statements given by that witness. This is a ruling of the Appeals

9 Chamber rendered a short while ago.

10 Mr. Bourgon.

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With

12 your permission, the Defence would like to address the Chamber in the

13 absence of the witness in connection with the ruling of the Appeals

14 Chamber.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 Madam Usher, will you take the witness out for a few minutes, and

17 let him be nearby, because we will bring him back.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21 In order to avoid all misunderstanding during the re-examination

22 of the witness that we have here this morning, I would simply like to say

23 concerning the decision of the Appeals Chamber, which is clear and says

24 that a prior statement given to the investigators may be used to refresh

25 the memory of the witness, Mr. President, in the opinion of the Defence

Page 5772

1 that is quite different from trying to contradict the witness using his

2 statement. To refresh his memory means that the witness doesn't remember

3 a particular point, and then his statement can be shown to him to tell

4 him, "Have you forgotten this fact?" But one cannot use that statement

5 to contradict what the witness has said. So to avoid any difficulty with

6 the examination of this witness, we wanted to mention this fact before

7 the re-examination of the witness begins.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

9 Please, Madam Usher, bring the witness in, and I shall give the

10 floor to Mr. Withopf now.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, my colleague,

12 Mrs. Benjamin, will do the re-examination.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Regarding what the

15 Defence has just said, the Prosecution has no observations to make? If

16 you do, we would have to ask the witness to leave again.

17 MR. WITHOPF: I actually wish to make some observations.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's only for a few

19 more seconds, but that is the procedure. The comment must be made in

20 your absence.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf. You heard

23 the interpretation given by the Defence regarding the Appeals Chamber

24 ruling, that is, that one can only produce a statement to refresh the

25 memory of a witness, to remind him of a certain fact, but not to

Page 5773

1 contradict what he may be saying.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, in your introductory

3 remarks, you very accurately combined the issue of a hostile witness and

4 the issue of refreshing the memory of a witness. Of course the

5 Prosecution can - and the Prosecution disagrees with the views of the

6 Defence - can, once a witness is declared hostile, can use his previous

7 statement not only for the purpose to refresh his memory but also to show

8 contradictions between the statement and the today's testimony. This is

9 a very different situation.

10 If the Prosecution in the course of the re-examination decides to

11 declare this witness being a hostile witness, the purpose of showing him

12 his statement will not only be to refresh his memory but also to show him

13 contradictions to his statement and to raise any issues in respect to the

14 witness's credibility. Thank you very much, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, regarding a

16 hostile witness.

17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] My colleague is right. If a

18 witness is declared hostile, according to the common-law procedure one

19 can contradict him with his statement. But declaring a witness hostile

20 is a decision that has to be made by the Chamber at the request of the

21 party bringing that witness and it must say why that witness is a hostile

22 witness. And following such a declaration by the Chamber, the rules

23 change. However, in the opinion of the Defence, this witness is not

24 hostile and until he is declared a hostile witness, his statement may

25 only be used to refresh his memory, to tell him whether he remembers a

Page 5774

1 thing or not.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is there any additional comment

3 regarding these remarks by the Defence, who tell us that if the

4 Prosecution believes that a witness is a hostile one, he has to convey

5 that to the Chamber, which will then declare the witness hostile; and

6 then the Prosecution is authorised to show him the document.

7 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this actually reflects

8 the procedure that has to be followed. And if and when the Prosecution

9 makes his decision to orally apply for the Chamber to decide that the

10 witness is hostile, the Prosecution will do so, if and when the situation

11 arises. But afterwards, the Prosecution can use the statement to

12 contradict the witness and to ask questions in respect to his

13 credibility -- can actually cross-examine the witness.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the Chamber

15 notes that everyone agrees.

16 So we will ask Madam Usher to bring the witness back into the

17 courtroom.

18 Regarding the questions put by the Judges, I shall give the floor

19 to the Prosecution, if they have any questions, and then the Defence.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, in light of the

23 questions put by the Chamber and in the light of the replies given by the

24 witness, do you have any additional questions for this witness?

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President.

Page 5775

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.

2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

3 Further examination by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

4 Q. Mr. Eminovic, with respect to your office or your room with

5 Mr. Beba at the barracks, would you be able to elaborate for the Trial

6 Chamber: How close was the Travnik barracks to where you were located?

7 A. The question is not quite clear to me. The office of the

8 exchange commission was about 20 to 30 minutes away from the barracks.

9 Q. My question now would be: During your tenure - and I talk

10 specifically from January 1993 to March 1994 - were you familiar with the

11 Travnik prison or detention centre, as you prefer to call it?

12 A. Well, for the period of mid-1993, when I was in contact with the

13 operations group, until February 1994, I was aware of the fact that in

14 the barracks in Travnik there existed a military detention centre.

15 Q. My question, then, to you would be: Being aware of the detention

16 centre, as you say, was the case of Mr. Bonic the first case that you had

17 known or seen at the detention centre? Would that be correct?

18 A. Yes. It was approximately the first time that I went to that

19 detention centre, that I entered the premises of the detention centre.

20 Q. Subsequent to Mr. Bonic, would you be able to assist the Trial

21 Chamber as to if there were other prisoners housed at that prison or

22 detention centre, as you prefer to call it.

23 A. Yes, there were members of the ABiH army who were in fact charged

24 with criminal activity.

25 Q. Aside from the members of the ABiH army, were there any other

Page 5776

1 prisoners of any other army held in that detention centre?

2 A. I didn't see them, although I heard that there were some

3 people -- members, that is, imprisoned HVO members who were awaiting

4 transfer to the prison in Zenica.

5 Q. And as far as you know, did you receive any reports in your

6 capacity as -- as making recommendations and dealing with exchange of

7 prisoners, did you receive any reports with respect to those that you

8 said you heard of, those HVO prisoners that you had heard of? Did you

9 receive any reports on them in that centre?

10 A. Well, I didn't make any recommendations. The exchanges were

11 carried out on request by the HVO exchange commission or the commission

12 of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. With --

14 A. But I didn't receive any reports about that particular centre.

15 Q. With all due respect to you, Mr. Eminovic, I think you

16 misunderstood the question. My question was: Did you in your capacity

17 receive any reports with respect to prisoners, HVO prisoners, who were

18 held at that detention centre in Travnik?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I'll be a little more specific. Did you ever hear about beatings

21 of HVO prisoners in the detention centre in Travnik?

22 A. Well, people were mentioning that, but I hadn't actually

23 witnessed that until the Bonic case.

24 Q. You indicated to the Trial Chamber that you yourself had seen the

25 detention centre, the prison. Would you be able to tell the Trial

Page 5777

1 Chamber as to approximately how many prisoners were held in that

2 detention centre at any particular time?

3 A. As far as I know, the premises of the prison had two or three

4 rooms. And as far as I could gather, it would not be possible to house

5 more than about ten people in that centre. I don't believe there were

6 more than about 20 people there.

7 Q. And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, as far as you know, as

8 far as what you told us a while ago, these would have been ABiH

9 prisoners, as far as you know?

10 A. Well, that was the purpose of the detention centre, that the

11 members of the ABiH who had committed the criminal acts should remain

12 there until the investigation was completed. The conditions for

13 accommodation were such that people were not able to remain there any

14 length of time; that was on the basis of what I saw in the premises

15 mentioned. It could be that at some points in time, as in the case of

16 Bonic, some of the arrested HVO would remain there until transfer to the

17 prison in Zenica.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Eminovic. Ideally - and I agree with you -

19 ideally that was the purpose of the detention centre; ideally. But

20 realistically now, could you tell the Court what transpired at that

21 centre.

22 A. Well, actually, I have no information as to what was going on at

23 this centre. I said that I was there for the first time in the case of

24 Bonic. And as far as I can remember, I may have been there one more

25 time.

Page 5778

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: With the permission of the Trial Chamber,

2 Mr. President, I'd wish to show the witness Prosecution Exhibit P40,

3 please.

4 Mr. President, Your Honours, it's on Sanction at the moment.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document is marked under seal.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Could we just show it on the monitor for

7 now? Is that -- that should be sufficient.

8 And I believe we'll have to go into private session for that

9 purpose.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now we shall go into private

11 session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5779












12 Pages 5779 to 5785 redacted, private session














Page 5786

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution has noted the

6 objections of the counsel for Defence. The fact that you were not --

7 clarified -- some points, and neither were we, and we asked that some of

8 his military functions be clarified. He doesn't want to tell us some

9 elements, and I think it is useless to continue to ask further questions

10 because the witness does not want to elaborate on his military functions.

11 I asked him the questions and it was said that he had been

12 assisting Mr. Salko Beba. Well, perhaps we will have to hear Mr. Beba

13 subsequently.

14 Please continue.

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Perhaps, Mr. President, we'll have to hear

16 Mr. Beba subsequently, but perhaps we can also take another route.

17 And I think my friend is being very unfair to me when she said

18 that in examination-in-chief I couldn't put it - not that I couldn't put

19 it -- not that I didn't - I couldn't, because the witness wouldn't allow

20 me.

21 So I think the point has come now when, Mr. President and Your

22 Honours, that we the Prosecution will have to deem this witness a hostile

23 witness to be able to get the evidence to the Court as is -- as is from

24 his report and from his statement. So we wish to make an application now

25 to deem this witness a hostile witness, please.

Page 5787

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We ask the witness to leave the

2 courtroom so that the Prosecution can elaborate on its requests.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are now in the stage when

6 the Prosecution wishes for us to take note of the fact that this witness

7 is a hostile witness. What are the elements? What are the grounds on

8 the basis of which you are embarking upon this road?

9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the only way I can achieve

10 the evidence as -- that we had before us and that the witness had given

11 to us would be by this route, because as my learned friend indicated, I

12 would have proofed the witness and I would have known. But there was no

13 way for me to bring it before the Court other than this way, to let the

14 Court know what happened at the proofing.

15 If the Court would have recognised this morning, I was faced with

16 great difficulty in getting this witness to answer and answer

17 accurately. He was very, very hesitant in his responses, and the

18 examination-in-chief had to be curtailed for the very reason.

19 In the proofing, the witness indicated to us evidence that was

20 exactly opposite to what he has come here this afternoon and said. With

21 respect to the Travnik barracks, he told us about the HVO prisoners being

22 detained, about how many prisoners were kept in a cell, about the

23 beatings, and this afternoon he comes to the Court and he says to the

24 Tribunal here that he never heard about the beatings, he never knew of

25 anything.

Page 5788

1 He talks -- he told us in proofing, when he was shown the orders,

2 that he knew nothing of these orders. And, Mr. President, as we speak

3 I'm trying to get copies of the orders -- oh, my learned friend just has

4 indicated to me that they have arrived.

5 There are orders here - and I questioned him on the orders, and

6 he said to me he had no part in the making of orders. He did not do

7 orders; he did not carry out orders; he was not a part of it. And the

8 orders clearly said instructions that were given to him and they were

9 given to him and his name was mentioned in the orders. And he denied it.

10 Yet when my friend produced orders, he affirmed it; he said yes,

11 he knew about the orders.

12 He talked in his evidence about Bonic, and he refused to go on to

13 elaborate what he knew else, and all that was told to him about other

14 witnesses. And he insists and he tries to -- rather, to be untruthful to

15 the Court by letting -- by giving the Court the impression that his

16 military duties were not of a particular way, as well as in his -- in the

17 orders and in his statement he said otherwise.

18 He said at first that he was never a military officer. Then he

19 comes here and he says, "Yes, I'm a military officer." One minute he's

20 civilian; the next minute he changes his clothes to military.

21 And for this purpose, Mr. President, Your Honours, I think that

22 the witness should be confronted with his statement, confronted with the

23 proofing.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Mr. President, the motion to have this witness declared a hostile

Page 5789

1 witness is an important act by the party calling a witness. It is their

2 own witness who is obliged to tell the whole truth before this Chamber.

3 The standard that needs to be met to -- for a witness to be declared

4 hostile - and one must say that this is the first case in this Chamber -

5 is one that was very rarely used. The standard has to be very high. One

6 needs to demonstrate to this Chamber in what respect the witness is

7 hostile to the party producing him.

8 However, all that is being shown to you today, Mr. President, is

9 that the witness was difficult during the examination-in-chief, and this

10 is not sufficient, Mr. President. We are told that he didn't tell this

11 Chamber the whole truth during -- in relation to the proofing session.

12 However, we have the previous statement of this witness and we do

13 not see any marked difference between what the witness said today and

14 what can be found in the statement. Of course the same words are not

15 used. But if my learned friend from the Prosecution wishes to produce

16 the statement, paragraph 14, the witness said such-and-such a thing to

17 the investigator, and then he can respond. And that is why I wish to

18 cross-examine him.

19 It is such a test, a demonstration of this kind can lead to a

20 declaration of hostility. But to say that the witness gave different

21 answers during a proofing session with the Prosecution, that goes to the

22 credibility of the witness, which the Chamber can judge. The Chamber has

23 the opportunity to question the witness. We have done the

24 cross-examination. There was an examination-in-chief and a long

25 re-examination. We have an idea of what this witness can and cannot

Page 5790

1 contribute. But we have to go back to some of his answers.

2 The witness spoke of his military role. The witness did say what

3 he did with Mr. Beba regarding transports. He drafted orders. What was

4 the military component of his work? He never refused to answer a

5 question regarding the military nature of his work. He also provided

6 certain clarifications, saying that at the same time he worked for the

7 commission and as an assistant to Mr. Beba. He also explained why he

8 worked for Mr. Beba: Because the personnel attached to Mr. Beba were

9 inadequate and we are in the middle of the war; everyone is working 20

10 hours a day, he has two employees, and that is why he was needed. He

11 explained that. He told us what he knew about the prisoners. And in

12 our opinion, there are no major differences between his testimony and his

13 prior statement.

14 All these reasons, we believe that the Prosecution has not

15 attained the necessary standard to have this witness declared a hostile

16 one. Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence counsel?

18 Mr. Dixon.

19 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no further

20 observations, other than those already made by Mr. Bourgon. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will withdraw for a

22 few minutes, and we will come back to give our ruling.

23 --- Break taken at 12.36 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is going to render

Page 5791

1 its ruling regarding the motion of the Prosecution for the Chamber to

2 declare this witness hostile, and as a result they would present to the

3 witness his written statement, as well as all other necessary documents.

4 The Chamber noted that the Defence opposed this, explaining that

5 there was no reason to consider this witness to be hostile. In view of

6 the importance of the problem raised, the Chamber is of the opinion that

7 it would be best to adjourn the hearing for today so that the Chamber may

8 render its decision tomorrow at 9.00.

9 So we are going to bring the witness back in to tell him that he

10 has to stay and appear again tomorrow morning.

11 At this stage there's no room for any further interventions,

12 because our decision will be rendered tomorrow.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Eminovic, you have been

15 asked to leave the courtroom because a procedural problem arose, and this

16 is a problem that we have to address and we will deal with it tomorrow

17 when we resume work at 9.00; which unfortunately for you will mean that

18 you will have to stay here this afternoon and this evening and to come

19 back tomorrow at 9.00. So do what is necessary to make sure that you are

20 present here at 9.00 to continue your testimony.

21 I would like to ask Madam Usher to accompany you out of the

22 courtroom.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President -- Mr. President, prior to the

24 witness being --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a moment. The Prosecution

Page 5792

1 has something to say before you leave.

2 Yes, Mr. Withopf.

3 MR. WITHOPF: There's one issue. The witness may be told by the

4 Trial Chamber, namely, that he's not allowed to talk to any of the

5 parties in the meantime.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that goes without saying.

7 But it's better to be specific.

8 Between now and tomorrow you mustn't be in touch with anyone. No

9 one may contact you until tomorrow morning, when you appear here.

10 You may leave now.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I have already said, we will

13 render our ruling tomorrow at 9.00, when we begin the hearing.

14 Now I'm going to adjourn. But Mr. Bourgon has something to say.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Quickly.

16 Will the Chamber be requiring written arguments?

17 Also, Mr. President, can we get additional information regarding

18 the scheduling of witnesses following the discussion we had yesterday?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Concerning the schedule,

20 the Prosecution explained what it intended to do, but I'll give them the

21 floor once again regarding the schedule, please.

22 And I must add that this witness will come back tomorrow morning.

23 MR. WITHOPF: For this purpose, Mr. President, can we please go

24 into private session?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

Page 5793












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Page 5794

1 session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5795












12 Page 5795 redacted, private session














Page 5796












12 Page 5796 redacted, private session














Page 5797

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.56 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

23 April, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.