Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5798

1 Wednesday, 21 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Can I ask the Prosecution to introduce themselves, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin, Ekkehard Withopf, and the

13 case manager, Ruth Karper.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

15 Can we have the appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

17 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; Mirna Milanovic, legal

19 assistant.

20 I apologise for the delay on behalf of the Defence team for

21 General Hadzihasanovic. There was a certain error. We should have had a

22 meeting with the witness at 7.45; however, he was wrongly informed that

23 the meeting would be at 9.45, and that was the reason that we were late.

24 And we apologise. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances for

Page 5799

1 the other Defence team.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

3 behalf of Amir Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

4 Mulalic, legal assistant.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber bids

6 good morning to all those present, the representatives of the

7 Prosecution, the Defence counsel, the accused, and all the personnel of

8 this courtroom. Actually, we are starting with a delay of some 15

9 minutes. This seems to be linked to a problem that the Defence should

10 have had a meeting with the next witness. It is true that the senior

11 legal officer was informed that you needed 15 minutes for this meeting,

12 but we didn't know exactly the reason for the delay.

13 When we have this sort of problem, there are two solutions. As

14 you are at least two on the Defence team, one can meet with the witness,

15 while the other is present here. Or the witness could be seen during the

16 break. So let us make sure next time that we start on time to avoid any

17 problems.

18 We need to render our decision on the question of a hostile

19 witness. The Chamber first wishes to recall the procedure applied during

20 the hearing of this witness, so that yesterday at the end of the

21 cross-examination by the Defence the Judges put questions to the witness

22 before the re-examination of the Prosecution. Before the re-examination

23 started, the Prosecution requested a longer break so that they might

24 conduct some additional inquiries and to be able to re-examine the

25 witness after the Judges in view of the new elements that appeared during

Page 5800

1 the answers to the questions put by the Judges before the break.

2 When the hearing resumed, the Chamber was asked orally for the

3 witness to be declared a hostile witness because the Prosecution feels

4 that there was no way for them to produce the necessary evidence and that

5 they had difficulty in getting precise answers to questions. That the

6 witness was hesitant in his answers, which actually curtailed the

7 examination-in-chief and that during the proofing session the witness had

8 said something quite the opposite to what he said yesterday. And in

9 connection with the Travnik barracks, he told them that there were HVO

10 detainees and how many. He referred to beatings, whereas here in the

11 courtroom he never mentioned those beatings. That also during the

12 proofing he said he didn't identify any orders, that he had no part in

13 making decisions about those orders, whereas those orders were addressed

14 to him and his name appeared on those orders. That the witness is not

15 telling the truth and that consequently the Prosecution is applying for

16 permission for him to be confronted with his statement in favour of their

17 case.

18 On the basis of those -- in response to those grounds, the

19 Defence said that the oral testimony does not significantly differ from

20 his written statement and that there was no reason to declare the witness

21 a hostile witness.

22 The Chamber noted that the statements of the witness regarding

23 the prisoners in the Travnik barracks appear to be in contradiction what

24 the witness said yesterday on the transcript, 10 hours 23 minutes, 25

25 seconds. By way of example, he asserted that there were only BiH

Page 5801

1 detainees, whereas in paragraph 14 of his written statement he mentioned

2 that there were also HVO prisoners. And in paragraph 13 of his written

3 statement, it is mentioned that there were facilities designed for HVO

4 prisoners.

5 The Chamber is of the opinion that the witness did not respond to

6 the legitimate requests of the party calling him and that there is reason

7 to consider him a hostile witness. Under those conditions, the

8 Prosecution is authorised to put questions to the witness regarding the

9 contents of his written statement.

10 Therefore, we're going to bring the witness into the courtroom.

11 I will give the floor to the Prosecution to put questions that they

12 consider to be opportune in relation to the written statement. After

13 that, I will give the floor again to the Defence who may re-examine. And

14 if necessary, the Judges will have some more questions.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. You may sit

17 down.

18 I need to give you an explanation why the hearing was interrupted

19 yesterday and you were asked to stay in The Hague and to appear again

20 this morning.

21 During your replies to questions put to you, the legal situation

22 arose in which you are a hostile witness, even though you were called by

23 the Prosecution. Within this very specific procedure, the Chamber has

24 decided that the Prosecution is going to ask you questions on the basis

25 of the written statement that you signed on the 14th of November, 2003.

Page 5802

1 In this written statement that the Chamber has reviewed, there are

2 several points that may appear to be in contradiction with what you said

3 yesterday in answering questions; therefore, the Prosecution is going to

4 put a certain number of questions to you again, after which the Defence

5 will exercise their right to cross-examine you, and the Judges may also

6 ask you some more questions.

7 I wish to remind you, as I did so yesterday on a number of

8 occasions, that you have taken the solemn oath to tell the whole truth,

9 and I wish to remind you that the Rules do envisage the possibility of

10 prosecuting a witness providing false testimony. So I am putting you --

11 I'm letting you know about this.

12 I'm going to give the floor to the Prosecution, to

13 Madam Benjamin, and try to answer those questions as precisely as

14 possible and telling the truth, the truth about -- of what you

15 eyewitnessed, what you heard, or what you did.

16 Madam Benjamin, you have the floor.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,

18 Your Honours.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Eminovic.

23 Mr. Eminovic, on the 11th and 14th of November, 2003, you gave a

24 statement to representatives of the Prosecution, did you?

25 A. Correct.

Page 5803

1 Q. And the interview was conducted in English. You gave the

2 statement in English, and you signed the English statement, did you?

3 A. Yes, that is true. But at my request that I sign the statement

4 in the Bosnian language, representatives of the Prosecution -- or rather,

5 the people I gave the statement to told me that they would let me have a

6 Bosnian version in seven days' time. So that page number 8, where

7 mention is made that the statement was read in the Bosnian language, was

8 left out of my statement which I signed and which is in English.

9 Q. I am a little bit puzzled.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: And perhaps, Mr. President, it would be good

11 now for the witness to be shown the statement, please, a copy of the

12 statement, please.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, please

14 continue.

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: [Previous translation continues] ...

16 Q. Now, you indicated to the Chamber that on page 8, that the

17 statement was supposed to be translated into the Bosnian language before

18 you signed it. Am I correct?

19 A. On page 8, as you can see, that number 8 is written by hand. It

20 was number 9. One page was left out. And on that page, it was stated

21 that the statement had been read out to me in the Bosnian language.

22 Q. On page 9?

23 A. That page is not here at all; it's missing.

24 Q. And I put it to you that that page is missing because there was

25 never a page 9. Wasn't the interview conducted to you in English?

Page 5804

1 A. Yes, it was. But I --

2 Q. Hold on a second. Let's go one at a time. Do you speak English?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Was the proofing conducted in English?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When the statement was taken from you - and the interview was

7 conducted on the 11th and again on the 14th of November -- it was

8 completed on the 14th of November, 2003, which is just a couple of months

9 ago - how was the interview conducted? In what language?

10 A. In English.

11 Q. When the interview was finished and you gave a statement, what

12 language did you give the statement?

13 A. In English.

14 Q. When the statement was read back to you, what language was it

15 read to you in?

16 A. In English.

17 Q. When you signed the statement, what language was written? In

18 what language was the statement written?

19 A. In English.

20 Q. Thank you. Could we move to your position in the OG, which is

21 paragraph 7 of the statement. Could we start with that point.

22 Were you a member of the OG?

23 A. I was not.

24 Q. Did you at any time be a part of any military unit of any sort?

25 A. No, I wasn't. Before the war, I was at the military academy.

Page 5805

1 Q. We are not going back to the military academy. We know that you

2 were trained in the military academy. And to just assist you along the

3 way, yesterday you indicated that you wore two hats; sometimes you acted

4 in the capacity of a civilian and sometimes you acted in the capacity of

5 a military advisor.

6 A. I said that I worked wearing a uniform.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague mentioned

8 that the witness had said yesterday that he was advisor. He never stated

9 that yesterday. He just repeated what he had stated yesterday.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Okay. In the interests of moving along,

11 Mr. President, at this moment I would like to show the witness an order

12 dated 28 June 1993.

13 Q. Could you cast your eyes to the bottom of the page, please, where

14 you can see your name. Do you see it?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And next to your name, could you tell us what you see.

17 A. [In English] "Member of operations group command."

18 Q. All right. So let's just go forward a little bit. Yesterday I

19 asked you who was Salko Beba subordinated to. Do you recall what you

20 told me?

21 A. [Interpretation] To the commander of the operations group.

22 Q. No. In fact, at page 8, line 3 of the transcript you said,

23 "Salko was subordinated to the state commission for the exchange of

24 prisoners of war." Would you like to correct it now?

25 A. I believe that it referred to the work he conducted in the

Page 5806

1 Commission for Exchanges, that the question referred to that part of

2 Mr. Salko Beba's duties. In my written statement, it's stated that as

3 deputy commander he was responsible to the commander of operations group.

4 Q. Clearly that's what is said in paragraph 7 of the statement, but

5 that was not your reply, as you see on page 8 on line 6, so that's why I

6 needed to get it clarified. So now that we have it clarified, Salko Beba

7 was subordinated to whom?

8 A. You mean subordinated?

9 Q. Yes. Who did he take orders from?

10 A. For duties related to the war exchange -- exchange. He was held

11 responsible to that body. And as regards his duties in the operations

12 group, to the commander of the operations group.

13 Q. Thank you. When we first started, if you the recall, I said to

14 you that you were dealing with --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please,

16 Madam Benjamin.


18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

19 Yes, the Defence rose why?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that -- that it is not

21 all right to refer to parts of the transcript if they are not in extenso

22 presented to the witness. On page 8, line 4, it is said: "Can you

23 inform the Chamber to whom you were subordinated when you spoke of his

24 membership to the commission." He said that he was subordinated to Salko

25 Beba, who is president of the exchange commission. And who was Salko

Page 5807

1 Beba subordinated to?" To the state commission for exchanges.

2 So this has nothing to do with the second part of the question

3 put by my learned friend and which was taken note of in his written

4 statement. We only spoke of relations within the state commission.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I think --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. At this

7 juncture, the Trial Chamber has to intervene. We are given a document.

8 Well, the document is submitted to the witness, who seems to be a member

9 of the operational group, the Bosnian Krajina Operational Group. So

10 according to this document, it looks as if this witness was a military

11 man and he's subordinated to Mr. Beba in his capacity as a military man.

12 It is therefore logical to ask the following question: Who is above

13 Mr. Beba? I think that's the reason why the Prosecution put its

14 question. Everybody has understood that there are two parts, two

15 aspects: There is one part that is the exchange commission, which has a

16 military and civilian part; and there is another aspect, which is totally

17 military, a totally military one. This witness was a member of the

18 exchange commission, and then he was also a military man; therefore, he's

19 in a position to clarify the situation.

20 Witness, there is a basic problem. You seem to be in full

21 contradiction between the answers that you provide here and this

22 document. The Prosecution has asked you whether you were a member of the

23 operational group. You said no. You are being submitted a document

24 where it shows or it seems that you are a member of the operational

25 group. So what are you saying? What are you stating? Indeed, this

Page 5808

1 document looks like an official document from the 3rd Corps, and it is

2 addressed to you, and it is not addressed to a civilian person but to a

3 military man, so what are you stating?

4 I don't want to put you in a tough situation, to put you on the

5 spot, but don't beat around the bush, as we say. Just answer the

6 question directly. I told you that yesterday already. If there is a

7 part that may be bothering you, say so; in which case the Chamber will

8 say, "Well, you can speak and you'll be protected by some kind of

9 immunity."

10 The question was a very precise one. Your name is in a document

11 that is a purely military document. So what are you saying to this?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document is -- was drafted at

13 the beginning when the operations group was just being formed, when it

14 was not capable of functioning. In other documents, two other persons

15 will appear as members of the operations group, but they were never

16 really appointed to such positions and within the structure of the

17 operations group. As the operations group became staffed, these persons

18 would leave the operations group and the persons appointed by the

19 corps command took up certain positions.

20 To simplify matters, Salko Beba put my name as a member of the

21 OG. I never had been officially ordered as to be appointed to the group.

22 This is a document that needs to be issued by a superior command.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have your written statement

24 in front of you. Please look at paragraph number 7, which is in English,

25 and you know English. And in English, it is stated that Beba and

Page 5809

1 yourself were members of the Military Security Service. That's what you

2 stated. So what are you saying now?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as this is concerned, when

4 making this statement, I said that I had ID of the Military Security

5 Service issued by the 3rd Corps which I had received in mid-1993 and

6 which I returned at the end of that year. That official ID on request of

7 Salko Beba was issued to me. And when I stopped my engagement there in

8 the OG, this ID was returned -- that is, when the capacities were filled,

9 my aid -- assistance was no longer required. But officially, I had an

10 official ID and I stand by that. And I mentioned that in point 7, and I

11 said that I was a member of the Military Security Service.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. According to you,

13 your official duties came to an end when precisely? Because one has the

14 impression that you are a military man against your will. Tell us,

15 please, when precisely your official duties ended within the operational

16 group.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] End of 1993 fully, because at that

18 moment the Commission for Exchanges of the 7th Corps was set up - that is

19 to say, of the OG - and after that the offers for cooperation with the UN

20 and other international organisations was set up in Travnik and I began

21 working there. And in February 1994 I moved to the Ministry of the

22 Interior fully.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are stating that in

24 1993 you had duties within the operational group; is this what you're

25 telling us?

Page 5810

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked in the operations group,

2 but I didn't have any specific duties. I didn't have a position in that

3 group.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are telling us the

5 following: "I worked within the group without having any official

6 position." But did it happen? Were there occasions when you carried

7 weapons?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had a weapon. What kind of

10 a weapon? A rifle, a gun?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A pistol.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that when you would

13 go to the group in your military uniform, it meant that you also had your

14 pistol with you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My pistol -- well, I had it when I

16 was in civilian clothes too, as a member of the reserve forces of the

17 Ministry of the Interior. Sometimes I would wear it in civilian clothes;

18 sometimes I wouldn't take my pistol when wearing military clothes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the military uniform that

20 you would wear, were there insignia and what kind of insignia did it

21 show?

22 A. There were no insignia. I had a badge where it said "the

23 municipal commission for exchange of war prisoners," and that was the

24 logo of that commission, with my name, surname, and with my position in

25 the municipal commission.

Page 5811

1 Frequently in -- when we were receiving refugees from Bosanska

2 Krajina we would wear uniforms because we had to help people board the

3 UNPROFOR trucks, to drag them out of ditches, and it was easier to do

4 those kind of jobs wearing a uniform.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue,

6 Ms. Benjamin.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged, Mr. President.

8 Q. Mr. Eminovic, maybe I should be more explicit. I'm confining my

9 questions to the period January 1993 to March 1994. Now, if you look at

10 the order that is in front of you, could you tell us the date of the

11 order.

12 A. 28th of June, 1993.

13 Q. And you would agree that that is just about mid-1993; am I

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, prior to the 28th of June, 1993 and from the beginning of

17 1993, which is 1st January 1993, what was your position in the OG?

18 A. In the OG, I wasn't in that group until 1993. I don't really

19 know when I started providing services there, when I started working in

20 the OG.

21 I would like to correct myself here: To mid-1993. Before that,

22 I was engaged in the exchange commission.

23 Q. Let us not go to the civilian part. Let us just stick right now

24 to the OG part, because that is very important to us. You notice at the

25 bottom of the page that you have that it refers to the position that you

Page 5812

1 held in the OG. The bottom of the order, the page, at the bottom where

2 your name is referred to.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You notice there's a position next to it.

5 A. No. Here we have a membership and not a position.

6 Q. So are you saying that that order was drafted wrongly, that you

7 didn't hold that capacity then?

8 A. I had no official appointment in the operations group. I cannot

9 deny that I worked in the OG, that I didn't help Mr. Salko Beba [as

10 interpreted].

11 Q. And you're absolutely sure about that? Absolutely sure?

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Okay, Mr. President, at this time may I show

13 the witness another order, please.

14 And for the benefit of the Court, Mr. President, it's also on the

15 screen.

16 Q. Do you have the other order in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Could you read the date for us, please, of that order.

19 A. July 4th, 1993.

20 Q. And in particular, could you read number 4 on the order, please.

21 A. "Jasenko Eminovic, Bosanska Krajina OG, assistant for military

22 security, is responsible for conducting the investigating process. He

23 shall conduct the criminal investigation with the help of members of

24 criminal department of Bosanska Krajina OG, CVP, military police centre."

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5813

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I can

2 see on the screen - and it is being written in English and read out in

3 English only - it is the right of my client to have the text in the

4 Bosnian language. And so I would kindly ask to have this text submitted

5 to him.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was about to ask this,

7 and I asked myself this initially. Do you have the orders in B/C/S? You

8 should have them, because here we have translated text and the accused

9 should be provided with text in their mother tongues.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I wish to apologise on behalf

11 of the Prosecution. I think it was an oversight on our part. Because

12 the witness speaks English, we just had the English version. But

13 certainly within a short moment we can provide the accused with the copy

14 in his language.

15 If my friend would want me to move on and then come back to this,

16 I'd certainly be prepared to do that. If it's -- if it's not a problem,

17 I'll continue.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. You will be able to

19 provide this when? How much time do you need? This B/C/S text, it must

20 be somewhere.

21 I'll give you the floor in a minute.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I think within another 20 to 30 minutes

23 before we take the break or even less. It's just to find the document

24 and bring it down to us.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 5814

1 Mrs. Residovic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no

3 objection to have the learned colleague to continue with the

4 interrogation, but I don't think it -- I think it would be correct

5 vis-a-vis my client to ask him whether he wishes to have the text and

6 documents in the English language in the Serb B/C/S language.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break

10 now, during which the Prosecution will have time to find the B/C/S text.

11 And after the break, we shall resume the hearing with everybody having

12 the text in B/C/S and with the accused having the text in B/C/S.

13 It is five to 10.00, and we'll resume at twenty past 10.00.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged.

15 --- Recess taken at 9.54 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, has it

18 found -- located the document in B/C/S?

19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Usher, could you please hand the document out.

22 We have a document in B/C/S, the order of the 28th of June. Have

23 you found that one, the order of the 28th of June? Madam Benjamin.

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President. We also have that one.

25 I think we are missing page 2. And since we are dealing with July 4th

Page 5815

1 now, I assume page 2 will soon come and then we'll give you the package

2 for the 28th of June.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then please

4 continue with the document of the 4th of July.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Residovic.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have noticed

8 that the English version that we received earlier on, it says that the

9 document was signed and stamped. Now that we have received the Bosnian

10 version, it is clear that this document is not signed and it does not

11 have a stamp, though the words are printed saying that it is signed and

12 stamped. However, we have checked, and this is a document that the

13 Defence is challenging for these particular reasons. And for the benefit

14 of the transcript, I wish to draw attention to this fact.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, the Defence is

16 telling us that, contrary to the English version, this document doesn't

17 seem to have been signed by Mr. Alagic, as there's no signature on it

18 except for what is stated here. And maybe there is a signature. Maybe

19 that is Mr. Alagic's signature. We don't know. But could you tell us

20 how you obtained this document, from which archives does it come. And

21 the Chamber notes that there is a stamp on it which seems to be an

22 official stamp of the Motorised Brigade, "312th Motorised Brigade" it

23 says on the stamp. Of course, I am translating on the basis of my own

24 knowledge of the B/C/S language.

25 Madam Benjamin, what is the source and origin of this document?

Page 5816

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, that was just a little before

2 my time, so I think Mr. Withopf would better be able to explain to the

3 Court.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, it's most likely, but

6 it has to be verified if necessary -- however, it's most likely that this

7 is a document stemming from the Sarajevo collection. This is a document

8 collection, as repeatedly mentioned, which was seized in October 2000.

9 However, if the need arises, this can be verified within a few minutes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. With this

11 reservation, Madam Benjamin, please continue your questions.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Mr. Eminovic, before the break we looked at number 4. And

14 according to you, when you read it out, it said that you are the

15 assistant for military security. Was that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So are you now saying that clause 7 is correct, that you were a

18 member of the OG and in fact the position you hold was military

19 security -- assistant for the military security?

20 A. I am saying that I was a member of the Military Security Service,

21 but I did not have any position in the operations group.

22 Q. Okay. If you look at number 4 again, could you continue reading

23 after "assistant for military security." Could you continue reading for

24 us, please.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in view of the

Page 5817












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5818

1 fact that we have objected to this document for formal reasons, it would

2 be normal for the discussion about the document to continue only if the

3 witness has ever seen this document and can recognise it, rather than

4 interpreting sentences that it contains. So I think that the proper way

5 is for this witness to be asked whether he ever saw the witness that is

6 being shown -- the document, sorry, that is being shown to him.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, the document shown

8 to you in B/C/S with a stamp on it of the brigade, and it has your name

9 on it, had you seen that document at the time?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see this document at the

11 time, and I said so clearly when making my statement in Sarajevo, that I

12 don't remember being involved in those activities at all, and that was

13 the first time for me to see this document. And I repeated this during

14 the proofing with the Prosecution. Because those activities are

15 mentioned in one of the paragraphs of my statement.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This document that

17 you have in front of you signed by Mr. Alagic -- you know who Mr. Alagic

18 was at the time?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If Mr. Alagic had

21 the position that he had - because he has passed away in the meantime -

22 if he signs an order from the 3rd Corps and mentioning your name as being

23 in charge of the responsibility of conducting investigations concerning

24 criminal acts committed by members of the operations group, by this order

25 you are charged with this function. Can one imagine that the commander

Page 5819

1 at the time, Mr. Alagic, could have made an order without the addressee

2 of that order being aware of it? Is that possible, in your opinion?

3 A. It could happen, because such things did happen, because of the

4 activities I engaged in in the exchange commission. Very often I could

5 not be reached because I spent most of my time working in the exchange

6 commission. At the same time as humanitarian-aid deliveries were being

7 organised through territory under the control of the Army of Republika

8 Srpska, members of the commission --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am stopping you there because

10 I wish to say the following: In paragraph 4, it is indicated within this

11 order that you had the professional assistance of the 312th Motorised

12 Brigade and there was a lawyer within that brigade, Gordana Zec. Imagine

13 if the Chamber could have Madam Gordana Zec coming to the Tribunal - I

14 don't know if she's a woman or a man - and if she tells us indeed, "I did

15 work with Mr. Eminovic," what would be your position then? What

16 situation would you find yourself in in that case?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Zec Gordan will certainly

18 say --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You know him?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I do. I do. He will say

21 that he cooperated with me because he took part in the training sessions

22 that I mentioned yesterday. Those are the four military policemen

23 covered by the training. But I don't believe that Mr. Gordan Zec would

24 say that I took part with them in these activities, because I don't

25 remember at all being engaged for these activities. I saw this order for

Page 5820

1 the first time when I was giving my statement in Sarajevo.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are telling

3 us that this is the first time that you are seeing this order.

4 And the other persons mentioned, Samir, Emir Hotic and Anel

5 Cizmo, do those names ring a bell?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you work with those people?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are persons who were members

9 of the military police company and who were part of the training that I

10 referred to in my testimony yesterday.

11 JUDGE SWART: I have noted that this order is about the exchange

12 of prisoners in -- notably Croatian prisoners, and you have a role in

13 that according to point 4 of the order. Well, yesterday you said that

14 your main job was to organise exchange of prisoners, and how can it be in

15 that situation that you don't know about this order? Because it's the

16 heart of your job, as you explained it yesterday to us.

17 A. I don't know why I was not informed of this order. The lists of

18 prisoners of war for exchange were drawn up on the basis of the requests

19 of the exchange commissions of the Croatian or Serbian side. We didn't

20 have any information as to which members of the HVO or the Army of

21 Republika Srpska were in detention until we addressed a request to the

22 military authorities to see whether those persons were detained, or if we

23 received such information from the Red Cross.

24 JUDGE SWART: [Previous translation continues] ... investigation

25 process is among soldiers of the HVO, possible crimes that they could

Page 5821

1 have committed. Yesterday you told us that you were engaged in that

2 field, that you interviewed many persons about crimes that could have

3 been committed by Serbs or by Croatian soldiers or civilians. So that is

4 also the question: How can it be that you don't know about this order?

5 A. Believe me, I don't know. I was probably not reachable at that

6 point in time. I was probably doing something else. But believe me, the

7 first time I saw this order was in Sarajevo, either on the 11th or the

8 14th of November, when I was giving my statement.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll take note of

10 your position.

11 Madam Benjamin, can you move on to another point.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. As a member of the Military Security Service, one of your duties

14 had to do with the drafting of orders re the military police; am I

15 correct?

16 A. I said yesterday on a number of occasions that I assisted

17 Mr. Beba because he was a member of the command of the operations group,

18 and I assisted him in those activities.

19 Q. And --

20 A. I was not authorised to issue orders. I couldn't sign an order.

21 I couldn't deploy people. This was purely the administrative part of the

22 job, putting words on paper.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and I'm putting it to you

24 that you did so in your capacity as assistant for military security. Am

25 I correct?

Page 5822

1 A. As a member of the Military Security Service and not as a clerk,

2 because I was not appointed to the position --

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... with all due respect, we are

4 not talking about a clerk here. We are talking about your position. And

5 the reason why I am putting it to you is because you made the statement.

6 And the reason why I am putting it to you is because in your position

7 certain things you would have known of that you have denied, that you

8 would not have known, and that is why I just want us to clarify this area

9 before we move. And in the interests of time, I think we would have to

10 move on because it's clear, it's in black and white. Okay?

11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: One second.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, if the Prosecution can please confer

13 for one or two minutes. We have to address the issue which has been

14 raised by our learned friend from the Defence in respect to the document.

15 It would only take one minute.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged, Mr. President.

19 Q. So you see when I look at paragraph 7 of your statement and when

20 you look at paragraph 10 of your statement, the second line at the very

21 end when you talk about your duty, it says, "And also orders in military

22 service." So when we look at those two and I combine it with the order

23 of July 4th, 1993 - and I had asked you to look at the B/C/S now - July

24 4th, 1993, are you looking at it, the B/C/S version? Below Mr. Alagic --

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you have asked the

Page 5823

1 witness whether he ever saw this order before, and the witness has not

2 once but at least five times said that he saw it for the first time

3 during his first interview with representatives of the OTP in Sarajevo.

4 As the witness is unable to recognise the order, it can no longer serve

5 as a basis for the Prosecution to refer to it and to compare it with

6 something else. I believe that the Prosecutor should be cautioned about

7 this.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, my learned friend from the

9 Hadzihasanovic Defence was raising an issue about the document which in

10 the English version says "Verified with stamp and signature," and she was

11 raising the issue that there is no stamp and/or signature on the

12 document. The Prosecution has inquired what the words at the very bottom

13 of the document - namely, the words "ovjerno pecatom potpisom" - what

14 these words mean, and these words mean "certified by a rubber stamp and

15 signature." That obviously reveals that the English translation has been

16 the correct one. And the Prosecution is a bit concerned about this

17 procedure, since my learned colleague from the Hadzihasanovic Defence is

18 a B/C/S speaker and she knows what these words do mean. So the English

19 translation reflects perfectly what is written in B/C/S on this document.

20 I wish to bring this to the attention of the Trial Chamber.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you can check with

22 the transcript. I said that there were the words in English "verified

23 with stamp and signature," but there's no actual stamp and signature,

24 though the words "verified with stamp and signature" are typed in. But

25 there's no signature or stamp on the document itself.

Page 5824

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding this matter, the

2 Chamber will not dwell on it because there is the stamp of the

3 312th Motorised Brigade dated the 4th of July, with Alagic's signature.

4 This authenticates the document. So I think that the B/C/S document does

5 not require further discussion.

6 The only thing is to see whether the witness was aware of this

7 document. He tells us he was not. So that is that.

8 Now the Prosecution is raising the question of paragraph 7 and

9 10 for their questions. The Defence appears to oppose this, but in fact

10 paragraphs 7 and 10 are not directly related to paragraph 4 of the

11 document that he doesn't recognise but it is a written statement when he

12 said in paragraph 10 that in his administrative activities included

13 writing orders, transferring prisoners of war, and making orders for the

14 military police.

15 So the Chamber is putting to you the following question: In

16 paragraph 10 that you have in front of you, you said that you assisted

17 Mr. Beba with administrative work and you specified what that work was,

18 saying "such as writing orders, transferring prisoners of war," and it is

19 not properly worded in English, "orders intended for the military

20 police." Are you confirming today that in your so-called administrative

21 activities or work which related to the operations group, you

22 participated in the drafting - we are not saying that you signed them -

23 but you participated in preparing and drafting orders? Do you confirm

24 that, that you participated in drafting orders, in preparing physically

25 or intellectually those orders?

Page 5825

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that

2 I assisted Mr. Salko Beba in writing orders about the deployment of

3 members of the military police company. This can be checked in the

4 transcript and I stand by what I said. I did write orders, upon his

5 instructions, regarding the transfer of individual parts of the military

6 police company to other positions, et cetera.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So line 20, page 26 you're

8 saying "I did write orders upon his instructions." So you drafted orders

9 upon his instructions. So it's quite clear now.

10 Mr. Bourgon.

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

12 to note in the transcript, page 25, line 21 that the document of the

13 4th of July does bear the signature of Mr. Alagic. My colleague a moment

14 ago mentioned that the document in question is not signed and that is the

15 basis of our objection. I want to ask whether the Chamber has rendered a

16 decision saying that the document is signed.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber finds that there is

18 a signature at the bottom of the page with the date below it. Apparently

19 that is Mr. Alagic's signature. But we have other documents signed by

20 him, and it would be sufficient to compare the two, unless the Defence

21 can tell us today that this is not Mr. Alagic's signature.

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I take the floor at

23 this stage, though it is my colleague who will be doing the

24 cross-examination, because I drafted the objections of the Defence

25 regarding the admissibility of these documents and we actually contest

Page 5826

1 the fact that this signature at the bottom of the page is Mr. Alagic's.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will take note

3 of that.

4 Mr. Withopf, perhaps regarding signatures you can bring some

5 light to the matter.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Not in respect to the signature at this point in

7 time, Mr. President. Since, however, the issue was raised as to where

8 and when the Prosecution got this document, the inquiries have confirmed

9 what I said a few minutes ago; this document was seized in October 2000

10 from the ABiH main archive in Sarajevo. It forms part of the so-called

11 Sarajevo collection.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Madam Benjamin, you may move on. The witness just told us that

14 upon instructions from Mr. Beba he did draft and write orders.

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President. And so

16 we're going to move on.

17 Q. And could we go to the Travnik barracks now. And before we

18 start, can I ask you to confirm for me that at your proofing on the 19th

19 of April, 2004 were you given the B/C/S version of your statement to

20 read?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you read it?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. And did you make any corrections, substantial corrections? Did

25 you?

Page 5827

1 A. Several substantial corrections.

2 Q. Excuse me?

3 A. I did make several important corrections.

4 Q. Okay. And would those corrections be different in any way from

5 the statement that you gave on the 11th and the 14th of November, 2003?

6 A. Just now it is hard for me to say. If I had the document that I

7 corrected in your presence, then I would be able to tell you, because I

8 don't remember exactly. I know that there were certain details that were

9 changed linked to Mr. Bonic Krunoslav.

10 Q. I am about to show it to you, because maybe we share a different

11 opinion what "substantial" is and what --

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, may the witness be shown his

13 statement that was shown to him during proofing, please. The B/C/S

14 statement, that is.

15 And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could we just go

16 through it very quickly, because there weren't too many.

17 Q. Paragraph 1 you made what I would call a change, I don't know if

18 it would be substantial, but you can tell us what it was.

19 A. The change in paragraph 1 is more of a technical nature. It's

20 not linked to the case, but it is linked to the institution that I

21 attended, that is, which military academy I was enrolled in.

22 Q. So that's not substantial, you agree.

23 Paragraph 2.

24 A. In paragraph 2, in the original translation it said that I had

25 joined the Territorial Defence. But I applied to the Territorial

Page 5828

1 Defence, which in my opinion is different; and upon that I was assigned

2 to the exchange commission.

3 Q. Okay. Can we just keep it to the changes. Like, for instance,

4 paragraph 3, "We had joined." And am I correct if I say that you changed

5 it to "registered"? Am I correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. So we won't go into the details.

8 Then we move on to paragraph 3.

9 A. Paragraph 3, the position of Mr. Salko Beba was called "deputy

10 commander." He was assistant commander.

11 Q. Good. So you changed "deputy" to "assistant."

12 Paragraph 4.

13 A. In paragraph 4, I underlined the word "assistant" and "security."

14 And I explained to you what the point was in the presence of an

15 interpreter. I explained it in my mother tongue, in Bosnian, saying that

16 I did not have a regular position designated by establishment as an

17 assistant deputy. So I couldn't be the assistant of the deputy commander

18 because I wasn't appointed.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 29,

20 line 20 my learned friend said that the witness declared that he didn't

21 join but that he registered. The witness never said that he joined or

22 that he registered but that he applied. In other words, he placed

23 himself at the disposal of the TO and was then appointed to the exchange

24 commission. So for the benefit of the transcript, I think it needs to be

25 corrected because what I heard in my own language does not correspond to

Page 5829

1 what my learned friend said in English in the line that I referred to.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe we can have the witness

3 explain this point fully.

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, because the witness was at the proofing

5 along with the interpreter and we know exactly what he said and he knows,

6 and we made the corrections and he made it.

7 Q. So could you tell us, we had the word "joined." Could you tell

8 us what word you corrected it with for us.

9 A. I said I applied.

10 Q. On the 19th April, 2004 did you use the word "applied"?

11 A. Yes. And I wrote it down as a correction.

12 Q. Thanks. Then we move on to clause 4. And I'd ask the Court to

13 bear with me, because we don't have too many. Then we move on to

14 clause 4. Could you tell us what you corrected in that statement.

15 A. In this part of the statement, that is, in paragraph 4, I

16 underlined the word "assistant" and the word "security." And I explained

17 to representatives of the OTP that I assisted Mr. Beba Salko but I didn't

18 have a fully regulated position in the operations group on the basis of

19 an order to that effect.

20 Q. Thank you. And would by correct if I got it right when I said --

21 when I wrote that you said you just performed the duties, you didn't have

22 a rank? Am I right?

23 A. No, I didn't have a rank.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And then we go to paragraph 7, which is one of

25 the most important paragraphs in this statement. And could you tell the

Page 5830

1 Trial Chamber or show the Trial Chamber the changes that you made to this

2 paragraph.

3 A. In line 5, it said that it was "attached to" the operations

4 group, and I changed it to being "part of" the operations group.

5 Q. And would I be correct in saying that that was the only

6 correction in paragraph 7 of the statement? Am I correct? So could you

7 answer for the benefit of the transcript, please.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. So would I be correct in saying that up until the

10 19th of April, 2004 you had agreed with the comment made in paragraph 7

11 that you were a member of the military service -- Security Service, that

12 you were part of the OG? Am I correct?

13 A. I agree that I was a member of the Military Security. I

14 explained that I had an official ID and for what period of time. That is

15 undisputed --

16 Q. No, Mr. Eminovic, at this point in time the process is just for

17 us to make sure that the corrections that you made and what was there, if

18 it's what you stand by. And you haven't changed anything in that

19 paragraph other than the fact to what you said. So we are taking it that

20 that is what you mean. Am I correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then we go on to paragraph 14, because that's the other one

23 that reflects a change. And could you tell us--

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to

25 draw attention to the fact that the Trial Chamber has in fact ruled that

Page 5831

1 the Prosecution should be allowed to examine the witness in this way to

2 clarify certain facts, but this is the second time when the witness is

3 trying to explain something my learned friend is interrupting him, so

4 that we will not be able to hear what the witness wants to say. So I

5 think he should be allowed to finish his sentence instead of being

6 interrupted, as he was on page 32, lines 4, 5, and 6.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, what were you

8 going to add concerning paragraph 7? Because the Defence believes that

9 you were interrupted. Did you have anything more to say?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to say, Madam

11 Prosecutor said that I was a member of the Military Security Service of

12 the operations group. It doesn't say that I was a member of the

13 operations group but that I was a member of the Military Security

14 Service. And I have said in my testimony that I did have an official ID

15 of the Military Security Service.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.


18 Q. Mr. Eminovic, this procedure at the moment is just for us to go

19 through your corrections that you made to the statement, and the next

20 process will be the questioning part. So if we could leave all the

21 comments for then, I'll be happy.

22 Let's go on -- we're just highlighting the changes, to show the

23 character -- if in fact the statement was in fact so changed. Could we

24 go to number 16 on your B/C/S statement. Did you have a change?

25 A. I do have a change in paragraph 8 as well.

Page 5832

1 Q. Yes, that is one you made. So could you tell --

2 A. In the preliminary translation, it was stated that the 3rd Corps

3 had a prisoners centre in the basement of the barracks, but the

4 correction is that the operations group had a temporary detention or

5 detention-on-remand facility in the basement of the barracks.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The word in B/C/S is "pritvor," as opposed to

7 "zatvor."


9 Q. And we have one at paragraph 14.

10 A. In the earlier version, it was stated that I am aware that HVO

11 and BH army prisoners were detained in cells at the same time, sometimes

12 separately. But the correction was that every effort was made for them

13 to be separate. And I think that during the proofing we agreed that the

14 English version was correct.

15 Q. Well, yes, we agreed it was correct. And did we have a

16 correction in number 17?

17 A. Instead of the word "prison" the word "detention" should be put,

18 the last word in paragraph 16.

19 Q. Thank you. Then we go to paragraph 19.

20 A. 17, I beg your pardon.

21 Q. We just did 16, if --

22 A. [In English] No.

23 Q. Okay. Let's move to 17.

24 A. [Interpretation] The one-but-last sentence in paragraph 17.

25 Q. There's one correction you will have noticed, one word. Could

Page 5833

1 you just tell us what was the correction for the one word, please.

2 A. In the original translation, it said "I knew one of those

3 criminals who beat him and I somehow managed to stop them." The

4 correction was "I knew one of those men."

5 Q. Yes. 19?

6 A. In paragraph 19, in the original translation it said "While I was

7 working in the Security Service I learnt that houses in Guca Gora had

8 been looted and set on fire when the ABiH army had taken control of the

9 village." In the corrected version, instead of the word "I learnt" or "I

10 was aware," the word "heard" should be put, "I heard."

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. And the part of the sentence that "The ABiH army took control of

13 the village" is underlined and two question marks are put there. During

14 the proofing, we discussed this point. And I told you that this related

15 to what I saw when I was in Guca Gora.

16 Q. Thank you very much. And we'll move to number 26. We're almost

17 done. And there was one word there.

18 A. In paragraph 26, the second sentence, in the original translation

19 it said, "I think that no investigation was carried out against soldiers

20 of the 3rd Corps." The correction is the following: "I don't know

21 whether there was an investigation."

22 Q. [Microphone not activated] Sorry, number 27, the last one.

23 A. In the translation, the word "Bermudas" was used, and we

24 corrected this to "shorter trousers." We agreed on that. And the word

25 "usually" in the next sentence was deleted, so what remains is "They

Page 5834

1 didn't have badges."

2 Q. So would you agree with me that the statement in English given by

3 you on the 11th and the 14th of November, 2003 and the B/C/S version that

4 you read on the 19th of April, 2003 has not changed substantially or

5 didn't change in any way from when you gave the statement? Would you

6 agree with me?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as the witness

8 has clarified everything, in paragraph 27 there's another sentence that

9 has been underlined. Could the witness tell us what this means, as he

10 has clarified some other underlinings that he did.

11 And I also think that the Trial Chamber was able to hear what

12 substantial changes have been made in the statement.

13 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I happened to be at the

14 proofing along with the interpreter and the investigator and the witness,

15 and even though it's -- something is underlined there, the only point the

16 witness made was with respect to Bermuda shorts. And the English version

17 had three-quarter-leg shorts, and we assured him that that was what was

18 written in the English version.

19 Q. Am I correct, Mr. Eminovic? Am I correct?

20 A. Yes. But we discussed the next underlined sentence as well,

21 because it is slightly in collision with what was said earlier on. So we

22 did discuss this, especially the part of the sentence that reads "After

23 their shifts on the front, they did come and go but I don't know where

24 they came and -- came from and went to."

25 Q. When you proofed with the Prosecution on the 19th of April and

Page 5835

1 you made the corrections, with respect to paragraph 7 did you speak to

2 the Prosecution with respect to the way we describe the shorts? You said

3 you had a problem with it because it said "Bermuda shorts." Am I

4 correct?

5 A. Yes yes.

6 Q. All right. And then we drew your attention to the fact that the

7 English version did not have "Bermuda shorts"; it had "three-quarter-leg

8 shorts," as you were saying. Am I correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Good. You underlined one - one, two, three, four, five - the

11 fifth and part of the sixth line, but did you indicate to us and the

12 interpreter that you wanted to change that or you had a problem? Because

13 we don't have any changes. And as far as I can recall, the only issue

14 with the 27 was the Bermuda shorts.

15 A. There was also a problem over the word "usually," not just "the

16 Bermuda shorts," but also the next sentence, the word "usually," the

17 first word in the B/C/S. We crossed it out.

18 And then we also spoke about this sentence that "They came to

19 town from their shifts walking around and scaring people." I said that,

20 in principle, I cannot say that they came from the front because I don't

21 know where they came from nor where they went.

22 Q. And is that your only correction?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you.

25 Could we go to the issue of the Travnik barracks, please. It has

Page 5836

1 been established from your evidence this morning that you were involved

2 in writing military orders and were a part of the OG, so to speak. And

3 my question to you is: In that capacity, did you --

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

5 never said that he was a member of the OG. He repeated time and again

6 that he was in the Military Security that, he had a military ID and

7 helped Salko Beba. I don't know why the colleague has been insisting on

8 the fact that he was a member of the OG, but he has never said that he

9 had been.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We will assess this

11 issue, whether he was de jure or de facto member of the OG.

12 Please continue.


14 Q. Mr. Eminovic, for clarification for everybody, which Military

15 Security Service do you refer to when you say "we were both members of

16 the Military Security Service"? What are we talking about here?

17 A. We are speaking to the Military Security Service of the

18 3rd Corps, which issued the official ID.

19 Q. So that was the Military Secret Service of the 3rd Corps, of

20 which you were a member; am I correct?

21 A. No, not secret. It was the Military Security Service --

22 Q. I think we have a -- something wrong there. But it's the

23 Military Security Service.

24 Where does the OG come in in respect to the Military Security

25 Service?

Page 5837












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5838

1 A. Could you please clarify that question. In what sense the

2 operations group?

3 Q. You see, if you look at paragraph 7 of your statement - and I

4 read - "Beba and I were both members of the Military Security Service.

5 Beba reported directly to Alagic. It was also -- he was also supposed to

6 report to the ABiH 3rd Corps security commander, who I think was Ramiz

7 Dugalic. At the time, Beba was responsible for a company of 40 to 50

8 military police attached to the OG." Could you help us, please.

9 A. Yes. Mr. Salko Beba was officially appointed assistant of the

10 commander for military security, and he was responsible to Mr. Alagic and

11 horizontally, he was responsible to the assistant commander for security

12 in the 3rd Corps.

13 Q. And it is your statement that this does not have any part to do

14 with the OG; am I correct?

15 A. No, I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that Mr. Salko was

16 directly responsible to Commander Alagic in the sense of duties

17 pertaining to military security in the area of responsibility of the OG

18 and, horizontally speaking, responsible to the assistant commander of the

19 3rd Corps for security matters. So he was responsible to

20 Commander Alagic and he sent out information to the security bodies of

21 the 3rd Corps.

22 Q. Okay. We will leave this for the Chamber to decide.

23 But you will agree with me that you did assist in the drafting of

24 military orders and taking statements and receiving reports, did you?

25 A. I took part in taking statements regarding circumstances

Page 5839

1 surrounding war crimes. Those statements were taken in the premises of

2 the exchange prisoners commission, and most of them were taken from the

3 expelled population from the territory of Bosanska Krajina. I helped

4 Salko Beba and I wrote orders on the basis of instructions received.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, this is my question: In doing such, did you

6 receive any reports with respect to HVO prisoners or Croats or any of the

7 like?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 18 of your statement. And I

10 would briefly read it for you: "I had him taken from the cells to Beba

11 in my office, where I spoke to him about war crimes and his motivation

12 for having the ear. He told me that the HVO was offering a bounty of 200

13 DM for the ears of dead ABiH soldiers. I took a short statement from him

14 about war crimes. I made sure that he was kept in a separate cell

15 because I was aware that his life was in danger. I know that he was

16 detained at the barracks for several months. Someone from the criminal

17 investigation department took a more detailed statement from him later.

18 I know that the ICRC was informed of his detention because the ICRC

19 officer from Zenica came to visit him."

20 Is it your evidence that when -- or rather, may I ask you this:

21 What was the contents of these statements that you took? What was told

22 to you by these prisoners?

23 A. Well, yesterday I said that I took statements only from one

24 person, Mr. Bonic Krunoslav, because by chance I found myself at Beba's

25 office and there was no one to do the job. I talked to him about what he

Page 5840

1 had done, and I bore in mind that it was a 16-year-old boy and someone

2 who had decided to do something of the sort to --

3 Q. Could I interrupt you. The question was not what you decided to

4 do but what was reported to you. What did you take in these statements?

5 A. Mr. Bonic told me that he had been captured between the lines of

6 the ABiH army and the HVO in the area of Puticevo and that at some public

7 gathering in Vitez Mario Cerkez had promised every HVO soldier bringing

8 an ear would be rewarded with 200 Deutschmark.

9 Q. And did he tell you anything about his physical condition and how

10 he was treated?

11 A. No, he didn't. I saw that he had received several blows, and I

12 tried to have this person no longer be subjected to such treatment.

13 Q. So with respect to Mr. Bonic, at least that is one individual

14 that you know was subjected to beatings; am I correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now I will ask you to look at paragraph 15 of your statement.

17 And it says - and I read - "The military police guarding the prisoners

18 were unable to prevent soldiers coming into the cells and beating

19 prisoners. People in the barracks were talking about the beatings. I

20 know that Beba spoke to his counterparts in the 17th Krajina Brigade

21 about this in an attempt to stop it."

22 Did you receive any evidence or any notice or were you ever told

23 or did you know of any beatings that took place in the Travnik basement?

24 A. As I said in my statement, I heard about those events, but the

25 only time I eyewitnessed this was in the case of Mr. Bonic.

Page 5841

1 Q. Mr. Beba's office that you visited at least twice weekly, could

2 you tell us where it was located.

3 A. The small building approximately straight, once you get past the

4 entrance of the barracks, after the ambulance, the first aid, and a

5 little bit to the right. Behind that building, to the right, the

6 service -- car service is located. In that building. And from the

7 entrance to that -- to reach that building you had to pass through a

8 small park.

9 Q. And could you tell us on your weekly trips if you had ever been

10 to the Travnik barracks.

11 A. That building where Mr. Salko had his office was within the

12 barracks. And there were several buildings within the premises of the

13 barracks.

14 Q. So I'm correct in saying that Mr. Salko Beba's office was within

15 the barracks; am I correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you visited there twice a week; am I correct?

18 A. More or less, yes.

19 Q. Now, during your performance of your duties as a Military

20 Security Service, that part of it when you wore the military uniform, you

21 had to go to the monastery; am I correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you tell the Trial Chamber today when you got to the

24 monastery what you saw.

25 A. When I reached the monastery, I saw some graffiti in the Arabic

Page 5842

1 language. I saw some bullet holes on a statue which was in the compound

2 of the monastery. I saw members of the 306th Brigade securing the

3 monastery. And they were there and protected the monastery with

4 sandbags.

5 Q. And is that the only thing you saw?

6 A. In the monastery, yes.

7 Q. What about outside?

8 A. Outside I saw two or three houses from which smoke was coming out

9 and from Travnik and Guca Gora we saw that the HVO positions had opened

10 fire --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I think you misunderstood

12 the question. Outside of the monastery.

13 A. In front of the monastery, at its entrance there were several

14 soldiers of the 306th Brigade. I don't remember if it was the military

15 police or someone else, but they belonged to the 306th Brigade and they

16 were securing the monastery.

17 Q. Okay. I'm going to read paragraph 21 for you of your statement:

18 "Several 306th Military Police had set up sandbags on the road at the

19 entrance to Guca Gora. Beba and I went to the monastery. Several 306th

20 soldiers were at the monastery gate. There was a priest but no soldiers

21 in the monastery grounds. I saw a lot of Arab graffiti on the outside

22 walls and some bullet holes in a statue in the garden." Could you assist

23 us with--

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know what

25 needs to be clarified here. What has been read by the learned friend has

Page 5843

1 been already said by the witness in response to her questions. And

2 before putting the question, he had already mentioned that he had seen

3 the graffiti and bullet holes on a statue in front of the monastery. I

4 don't know what the -- what is being asked of the witness, 42, line 15.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What's the purpose of question?

6 Well, he answered the question about the graffiti yesterday. I don't

7 believe at any point he mentioned that he had seen bullet holes -- bullet

8 holes. Perhaps that may be the purpose of your question.

9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you. And that is just the point.

10 Q. Could you explain to us if in fact you did see bullet holes and

11 what other things you may have seen, please.

12 A. Yes. I said that I saw bullet holes on the statue in this part.

13 I did see them.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, when you went to the cell at the Travnik

15 barracks, you saw Bonic being beaten. So you were down in the cells,

16 were you?

17 A. Well, I wasn't in the cell. I was in the corridor of the

18 detention centre.

19 Q. So you saw -- you were in the corridor of the detention centre,

20 and you saw Mr. Bonic being beaten; am I correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is there any other thing that you would like to tell this Trial

23 Chamber that you would have seen then?

24 A. I saw a soldier who had hit -- been hitting Bonic a number of

25 times, and when I insisted, he stopped. Everyone was shocked when they

Page 5844

1 saw that a child of 16 cut other people's ears off.

2 Q. "Everyone was shocked." "Everyone" meaning what? What did you

3 see down in that basement? Did you see other prisoners? What did you

4 see?

5 A. There were several members of the army that had captured Bonic

6 and the police that were securing the detention centre.

7 Q. Is it your evidence to this Court that Bonic was the only person

8 in that detention centre?

9 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I could see that these

10 people were shocked, because they were -- found themselves in the

11 corridor.

12 Q. Okay. I am not disputing the fact that people were shocked about

13 whatever. I'm asking you just to tell the Court when you went down in

14 the corridors of the Travnik detention centre, as you would like to call

15 it, what did you see in what were the conditions? What did you see in

16 whom did you see? You saw Bonic being beaten. Did you see anything

17 else?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in conformity with

19 the rules of hostile witnesses, the colleague has asked questions. Now

20 she is putting additional questions that do not treat the witness as a

21 hostile witness but is continuing yesterday's cross-examination and is

22 requiring additional information of him.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with all due respect, my

24 purpose here is to get the truth from the witness, who swore to tell the

25 truth and nothing but the truth, and that's all I'm trying to achieve.

Page 5845

1 The witness was -- the witness has said to us that he was down in the

2 corridors of the basement.

3 Q. The question is: What did you see?

4 A. I saw the warden of the detention centre, because I had to ask

5 him to have Bonic go out and to have protection for him.

6 Q. Okay. Can I ask you to tell me, then, this place that you're

7 referring to as a detention centre, how long does -- as a military

8 person, how long is somebody kept in a detention centre for? For how

9 long?

10 A. Until proceedings were initiated before the court.

11 Q. Okay. And in this particular detention centre, as you call it,

12 how long were these prisoners kept there for?

13 A. I actually do not know.

14 Q. Okay. You had indicated earlier on that they were kept there for

15 transition, it was a transition point. Did you say that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, listen to this: Look at paragraph 18 and - one, two,

18 three, four - the fifth line. And I read this: "I made sure that he was

19 kept in a separate cell because I was aware that his life was in danger.

20 I know that he was detained at the Barracks for several months." Is that

21 the same thing as saying that this place was a detention centre because

22 it was used as a transition point to be transferred? Is that the same

23 thing?

24 A. I don't agree.

25 Q. Well, what do you agree with?

Page 5846

1 A. I agree that in the case of Bonic, because I had information to

2 that effect and I gave information in my statement. But about things I

3 do not know, I cannot pass judgement.

4 Q. In your capacity of investigating and taking the statements, from

5 the time you were a part of this Military Security Service until you were

6 relieved of your position, Bonic -- is it your evidence to this Court

7 that Bonic was the only prisoner that you had dealt with? You did one

8 statement and Bonic -- and that was Bonic? Is that it?

9 A. The only prisoner of war from whom I took a statement was Bonic.

10 And in the premises of the exchange commission, I took statements from

11 other people who would not -- who were not prisoners of war but were in

12 most cases refugees, exiles from Bosanska Krajina.

13 Q. I am speaking specifically - and I think you know that too - with

14 respect to the Travnik situation, what went on at the Travnik basement.

15 And maybe I can assist you. All I'm asking you is: You went there twice

16 a week. You have told us that. Okay? You took statements. You

17 investigated things. The question is: Was Bonic the only person that

18 you had ever dealt with in that Travnik detention centre?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Residovic, please try to

20 avoid interrupting the Prosecution frequently because she's endeavouring

21 to get to the truth. And as it is a hostile witness, she is entitled to

22 leading questions, which she's not doing but she's trying to clarify

23 things.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can avoid

25 interrupting, but pursuant to the Rules of the Tribunal the Prosecutor

Page 5847

1 should rely on what the witness said. The witness never said that he

2 conducted these investigations, and he always said that the only

3 statement he had taken was from Bonic. He has explained several times

4 that he took different kinds of statements in another location. But my

5 learned friend repeats here again that he had confirmed that he conducted

6 investigations.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question that the

8 Prosecution is asking you is a clear one. In the Travnik barracks you

9 took a statement from the minor Bonic. That is something you have

10 confirmed. But the question she's asking, you can answer with a yes or

11 no because it is very simple: In the Travnik barracks, did you take

12 other statements from other detainees in addition to Bonic? It's very

13 simple; yes or no?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that's quite clear. Please

17 continue.


19 Q. Now, a very, very simple and clear one too: When you got to the

20 Travnik barracks - and you call it a detention centre, but if you look in

21 paragraph 18, you refer to it as the cells - you said "I had taken him

22 from the cells to Beba and my office." So I assume that it is also a

23 prison in your mind, because you talk of the cells. When you got to the

24 corridor, as you claim, just tell the Trial Chamber if - I'm not asking

25 you to say what you didn't see - did you see other people other than

Page 5848

1 Bonic in the cells?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. Again, the

3 question is very clear. I must remind you that you're a witness. You're

4 not being accused of anything. As you have taken the oath to tell us the

5 whole truth, we don't see why a question of this kind can be embarrassing

6 to you.

7 The question is quite simple: When you went down there, did you

8 see Bonic alone, or did you see other persons down there? It's yes or

9 no.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see other persons as well.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But other detained

12 persons who were not military policemen, who were providing security

13 there. Did you see other detained persons?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were detainees.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, these

16 detainees according to what you were able to see, who were they? Were

17 there soldiers of the ABiH, civilians, people belonging to the HVO,

18 Serbs? Who were they? If you know. If you don't know, you can tell us

19 there were detainees and I can't say anything more than that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything more. Because

21 I didn't have any information as to who was down there in the detention.

22 There were members of the army from the brigades who had committed

23 certain offences; I know that. I know that there were such cases. As

24 for the others, I can't say, because I didn't see who they were. I know

25 about Bonic; I know he was down there.

Page 5849

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But in the cells,

2 according to your visual memory, how many people did you see? Five, ten,

3 fifteen, twenty, a hundred? Have you got a figure, an approximate figure

4 to give us? It may have been ten BiH persons. Have you got a figure

5 that you can give us?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In passing, as I was able to see

7 the number of cells and the number of beds inside, I don't think there

8 could have been more than ten people. Between five and ten people. In

9 those cells.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue,

11 Madam Benjamin.


13 Q. Mr. Eminovic, yesterday when we were doing the

14 examination-in-chief you indicated to the Trial Chamber that you

15 described the barracks as a detention centre. And I quote your words:

16 "Because the condition for accommodation was such that people were not

17 able to remain there any length of time." But could you elaborate for us

18 what is your idea of "length of time." Because you see, you said Bonic

19 was there for several months, and I really think this ought to be

20 clarified for the Trial Chamber.

21 A. Those premises were probably made by the JNA to meet the

22 standards of a detention centre for -- that would be used in the case of

23 disciplinary offences by the Yugoslav army in those days. The rooms did

24 not have the amenities for lengthy stays. They were small; there were

25 several people inside. So people serving their sentence could not be

Page 5850

1 held there, in my opinion.

2 Q. So would you agree with me that it was not a proper place -- or

3 rather, it was not sanitary or in any other way proper to keep prisoners

4 down there for months? Would you agree with me?

5 A. I would.

6 Q. And from your international-law experience, as you have told us,

7 would you consider that to be inhumane treatment?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but

9 I have to interrupt my learned friend once again, because this is up to

10 Your Honours to judge and not the witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is too complex a

12 question for the witness. He answered your question in line 14. It is

13 not necessary to go beyond that, to ask him for a judgement of the legal

14 nature and his competencies perhaps are not proper to be able to

15 appreciate that.

16 So please continue, Madam Benjamin.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, thank you. And with all due

18 respect, the question was only asked of the witness because the witness

19 presenting himself as an international-law expert. He said he taught

20 international law to the military people. But be that as it may, I'll

21 continue. Thanks.

22 Q. Mr. Eminovic, could you kindly explain to the Trial Chamber

23 during mid-1993, other than ABiH soldiers, HVO soldiers, if you were

24 aware of any other militant body on the streets of Travnik.

25 A. Could you clarify the question, please. What do you mean

Page 5851

1 "militant body"?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber hasn't understood

3 the question. I'm looking at the transcript. I don't understand the

4 question. And if the Chamber doesn't understand, then the witness cannot

5 understand either. So will you please rephrase the question.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Point taken, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Eminovic, in the town of Travnik in mid-1993, the middle of

8 the year 1993, you had indicated to us yesterday that you had seen

9 members of the ABiH soldiers patrolling the streets, HVO soldiers. And

10 my question is: Did you see any other bodies, any other militant bodies

11 or any other army or anybody representing themselves as an army

12 patrolling the streets of mid-1993?

13 A. I'm afraid this question is no clearer. I don't know what you

14 mean by "militant bodies."

15 Q. Okay. I'll --

16 A. Does that -- do you mean persons under arms, armed persons.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... relating to paragraph 27.

18 Let's go straight to it, because I'm entitled to lead you. So let's go.

19 Do you see paragraph 27 of your statement?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before Madam Residovic

22 intervenes, the question is linked to paragraph 27. The Prosecution is

23 putting the question with prudence, prudently.

24 What do you have to say?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wish to say that the

Page 5852

1 Prosecution put an identical question to the witness yesterday: "Did you

2 see any other military bodies?" Or "bodies" again, I see in the

3 transcript. And the witness answered: "They were not members of any

4 organisation." So an identical question was put to the witness

5 yesterday. Thank you.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: With all due respect to my friend, that's

7 just the purpose of this exercise.

8 Q. Paragraph 27. Could you look at it for us: "Foreign Mujahedin

9 were in Travnik during the war. They were usually armed with AK-47s and

10 wearing uniforms, which were a mixture of three-quarter shorts and

11 camouflage jackets. They usually didn't have badges. I didn't see them

12 come into the barracks when I was there. I don't know where they were

13 based but I used to see them very often on the streets." And I can

14 continue, but I think you can assist us now, can you? Did you see the

15 presence of any other bodies on the streets mid-1993, middle of the year,

16 in Travnik?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The question is simple:

18 Are you confirming the contents of paragraph 27?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic. We

21 haven't heard you for a long time, so we're listening.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

23 have just a correction in paragraph 27 that was explained by the witness.

24 In line 3, he explained today that the word "usually" should be deleted.

25 The witness explained that they didn't have badges, whereas my learned

Page 5853

1 friend put it slightly differently. And perhaps the witness could

2 explain that.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, you are

4 confirming the contents of paragraph 27 with the reservation of the

5 handwritten corrections that you made during your meeting with the

6 Prosecution, having deleted the word "usually."

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And also, specifying that you

9 crossed out the word "Bermuda" and exchanged it for "trousers," and you

10 also underlined a sentence. But the general content is something you are

11 confirming.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, the time for

14 the break approaches. In fact, we've gone beyond it.

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think I have a few more

16 question. But if the Court is mindful of taking the break now, I'm in

17 the hands of the Court.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we started at 10.20 again

19 and as we have to stop every hour and a half for technical reasons, we

20 are going to adjourn and we will resume at twenty-five past 12.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin, you have the

24 floor for your final questions.

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 5854

1 Q. Mr. Eminovic, aside from statements that you may have received

2 from HVO prisoners and the like, did there come a time when you also

3 received reports of another nature with respect to destruction and

4 damage?

5 A. I did not receive reports or statements from HVO prisoners. I

6 didn't have any access to those statements, nor did I receive any reports

7 about destruction.

8 Q. Okay. I'll be specific so we can move on. Paragraph 20 of the

9 statement, please: "Salko Beba and I went to Guca Gora in the summer of

10 1993 after we had received reports that Mujahedin had damaged the

11 monastery." Could you assist us with that, please.

12 A. Yes. Salko Beba received that information. I was in the

13 premises of the exchange commission. He came to fetch me by car. He

14 told me to take the paint from the office left over from the painting we

15 had done before, and we headed off in the direction of Guca Gora.

16 Q. So, then, what you said in your statement on the 11th and the

17 14th of November is not exactly true; is that what you're saying?

18 Because you said you received reports, but now you're saying you didn't

19 receive any report.

20 A. I didn't say I received reports, but it had been reported, that

21 we had been informed, that this information had reached us. Somebody

22 probably told Mr. Beba by telephone or in some other way. But I did not

23 receive a report in writing or orally from anyone. I didn't have the

24 authority to do that.

25 Q. Okay. I can only go by what you said in your statement, you'll

Page 5855

1 agree. And so I'll ask you this question so that we could clarify the

2 whole issue of the -- your duties: In your capacity as a Military

3 Security Service personnel, did you at any time receive any reports with

4 respect to beatings of prisoners at the Travnik basement, with respect to

5 looting, with respect to damage to property, whether by Mujahedin or

6 otherwise? Did you receive any reports? Did you ever receive any

7 reports?

8 A. I did not. All reports went to Mr. Salko Beba, and I didn't have

9 access to those reports.

10 Q. So when you say in paragraph 24 of your statement, "each brigade

11 had a Deputy for Military Security Service who was responsible for

12 investigating disciplinary and criminal offences," where do you get those

13 offences from that you investigate? Who relate about them [sic]? Who

14 made those reports for you to carry out investigations?

15 A. When I was making this statement, the question had to do with the

16 structure of the Military Security Service and their competencies. So

17 each brigade had a deputy commander for military security who was

18 responsible for investigating disciplinary and criminal offences by

19 members of those units.

20 Q. That's just my point. So were reports made with respect to the

21 behaviour of the members of the brigade with respect to beating of

22 prisoners, any criminal offences -- were reports made to you?

23 A. Not to me.

24 Q. Earlier on you indicated that you were subordinated to Mr. Salko

25 Beba; am I correct?

Page 5856

1 A. [No audible response]

2 Q. And Mr. Salko Beba was subordinated to Mr. ...? Could you assist

3 us. Who he was subordinated to?

4 A. I didn't say that I was subordinated to Mr. Salko Beba. I

5 assisted him in the operations group. I did not have a post by

6 establishment within the operations group, so I was not subordinated.

7 Mr. Salko Beba was subordinated to the commander of the

8 operations group.

9 Q. Did you take instructions from Mr. Salko Beba?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. With respect to dealing with criminal offences, drafting of

12 orders, et cetera?

13 A. In connection with drafting orders, no.

14 Q. Did you draft orders in the military on your own accord?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Upon whose instructions did you draft the orders?

17 A. Mr. Salko Beba.

18 Q. And Mr. Salko Beba was subordinated to who?

19 A. To the commander of the operations group.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's an error

21 in line 56 -- page 56, Line 21. The witness said, "Yes, in connection

22 with drafting orders." And then he added, "Not in connection with

23 criminal reports." That is what the witness said. The wording here is

24 quite different in the LiveNote.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it would be better for the

Page 5857












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5858

1 witness to tell us.

2 Mr. Eminovic, you told us that you drafted reports following

3 instructions from Mr. Beba. We agree on that, don't we?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not reports but orders,

5 pursuant to instructions received from Mr. Beba.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Orders. I see. Very well.

7 Were there occasions when you had in your possession reports regarding

8 destruction drafted by someone else and that you had in your hands?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution called your

11 attention to paragraphs 24 and 25. I'm asking you to look at them

12 closely, paragraphs 24 and 25, and they're very precise and they come

13 from what you said. It says that "each Brigade had a Deputy for Military

14 Security who was responsible for investigating disciplinary and criminal

15 offences." And you describe the procedure in paragraph 25.

16 The Chamber is wondering if this person, who is in English

17 designated as deputy for Military Security Service, was that you? Did

18 you have that position?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And to the best of your

21 knowledge, who was the person who had those responsibilities in addition

22 to Mr. Beba or as the deputy to Mr. Beba?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As stated here in paragraph 24,

24 those persons were in the brigades and not at the level of the operations

25 group.

Page 5859

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And you, did you

2 have any relationship with those people or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How could you, then, describe

5 their work in such a precise manner? How did you know that the procedure

6 required two signatures and all these things? How did you know all these

7 things?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information comes from the

9 rules of military service, and they're linked to my previous education in

10 the military academy regarding the functioning of various units in the

11 army. In principle, the functioning and organisational structure of the

12 BH army was very similar to the organisational structure of units and

13 military formations in the former JNA.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Benjamin, do

15 you have other questions?

16 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Just a few, Mr. President.

17 Q. You see, Mr. Eminovic, I am a bit confused and I think we need to

18 clear it up because you had indicated that you didn't have a rank by name

19 per se but you performed the duties, as you said in paragraph 4 of your

20 statement. And if you look at the second line of paragraph 25, it says

21 that "the Military Security Service investigated it using assistants as

22 required to take statements, reconstruct events, and, if necessary,

23 secure the crime scene." And I'm wondering, were you a part of this?

24 A. I was not. As I said a moment ago, this was linked to the

25 brigade. The operations group did not have the capacities, the

Page 5860

1 capabilities to engage in such activities, because every brigade in those

2 days had an assistant commander for security and at least two security

3 assistants or clerks.

4 Q. Okay. Well, I don't know. Let's just get the order, then.

5 Salko Beba was subordinated to Alagic; am I correct? We said that

6 already. We established that, didn't we?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Good. Let's move on.

9 Now I want to ask you: How were the information -- the reports

10 sent to the corps? How -- explain the chain for me. Could you explain

11 the chain of events, who collects the report, what happens? And maybe if

12 you look at paragraph 7 of your statement it may assist you.

13 A. Reports from the operations group towards the corps - and I am

14 talking in theory how things should have functioned; in those days

15 communications were very poor. We lacked the technical devices for

16 various information to follow an established procedure - each assistant

17 commander of an operations group, in addition to reporting to the

18 commander of the operations group, was also duty-bound regarding his own

19 responsibilities and within his own terms of reference to inform the

20 command of the 3rd Corps -- or rather, the service in charge of such

21 things.

22 Q. So the 3rd Corps was informed, according to your statement in

23 paragraph 7 in the statement. That was the chain. Eventually the 3rd

24 Corps, they reported to the 3rd Corps.

25 A. That is how the chain went. Now, whether those reports were

Page 5861

1 actually sent out, I don't know, but that was how the chain of command

2 was established and the functioning of military organisations was

3 established in that way.

4 Q. Would you be able to help us as to whether -- because I'm not

5 sure if you can be of assistance to us, because I don't know what your

6 functions were, but I'm going to ask you still. Was there a district

7 military court functioning in Travnik during the period 1993 and 1994?

8 A. As far as I know, the district military court was functioning

9 during that period.

10 Q. And as far as you know, based on reports that were received, are

11 you aware whether any 3rd Corps soldiers were investigated or punished

12 for beatings of prisoners in the Travnik barracks?

13 A. I did not receive reports, but I don't know whether there were

14 any investigations of members of the ABiH army.

15 Q. And in your capacity as a member of the Military Security

16 Service, you are not aware of any prisoners - and this is your evidence

17 to this Court now - you were not aware of any prisoners, whether

18 civilians or HVO soldiers or otherwise, who reported beatings?

19 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

20 Q. You're not aware of that. Okay.

21 And this would be my final question to you: Are you aware that

22 there were lootings and burnings in the Guca Gora area?

23 A. I heard that property was being looted of citizens of Croat

24 nationality. I didn't have any reports to that effect. I was not in a

25 position to receive reports of that kind. But I did hear that such

Page 5862

1 incidents were taking place.

2 Q. What is confusing me is that is Travnik and the Guca Gora area

3 such a very big area that you yourself couldn't see? Couldn't you tell

4 us what you saw? Didn't you see anything?

5 A. Guca Gora is some 10 kilometres away from Travnik.

6 Q. The conflict was on, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you aware of what was going on during the conflict?

9 A. In what sense do you mean?

10 Q. What was happening around you? Were you aware of what was

11 happening in the environment, what was happening in the surrounding

12 areas? Were you aware?

13 A. At that point in time, five or six citizens of Croat ethnicity

14 abandoned the town of Travnik and across the Vlasic Mountain went to the

15 territory under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska. Most

16 citizens of Croat ethnicity from Travnik had left the town on foot.

17 About 5.000 people left Travnik on foot, and this is at the other end of

18 Travnik municipality.

19 Q. And do you know if they left on their own volition?

20 A. I don't know. I know that there were conflicts, clashes,

21 shootings, but I also heard that they had left following HVO members who

22 were on the front line against the Army of Republika Srpska and they

23 crossed into territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska. Now,

24 the reasons behind this, believe me, I don't know.

25 Q. Do you know, then, if there was a lot of conflict going on in the

Page 5863

1 streets of Travnik with respect to the Mujahedins? Were they terrorising

2 people? Are you aware of that?

3 A. What was happening in the streets of Travnik linked to the

4 Mujahedin is something I referred to in my statement. They behaved in a

5 hostile way even towards members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 if they saw them drinking. As for any details linked to the activities

7 of the Mujahedin in the streets of Travnik when fighting was going on, I

8 don't know, because there weren't any major battles in Travnik between

9 members of the HVO and the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. Could you --

11 A. But --

12 Q. Could you tell -- for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could

13 you - if you know, that is - could you tell us who the Mujahedins may

14 have been subordinated to, if you know?

15 A. Believe me, I don't know. As far as I know, they were not within

16 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time. They didn't have

17 insignia on their uniforms, and they behaved in the way I described in

18 paragraph 27 of my statement.

19 Q. And this is my last question to you: The statement that you gave

20 on the 11th and the 14th, 2003, of November, which is just about four

21 months ago, and the proofing that you did on the 19th of April,

22 2003 [sic], which is just two days ago, are those clauses that you made

23 in the statement, are they true and correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this is the end of the

Page 5864

1 cross-examination.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Eminovic. Like my learned friend,

5 I will start with the statement that you gave to the investigators of the

6 OTP on the 11th and 14th of November. Is it true that the investigators

7 on that occasion were Mr. Mr. Guenter Schweiger and David Re?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the very beginning, my learned friend asked you how you made

10 that statement, and you answered her question. You noted that you did

11 not receive the statement in our language on time. Tell me, did you ask

12 for that statement to be provided to you in our language?

13 A. I did, because I didn't feel sufficiently qualified to testify in

14 English before the Tribunal.

15 Q. In our language, the statements was shown to you only two days

16 ago when you came to The Hague; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me, Mr. Eminovic -- or actually, you can confirm that once

19 again - though you told us that yesterday, that you and your colleagues

20 in 1993 were working under extremely difficult conditions which it is

21 hard to imagine from the standpoint of normal living conditions today -

22 is what I am saying true?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In view of the work you did, were you a witness of the fact that

25 this was a year when members of the armed forces and ordinary citizens

Page 5865

1 were engaged in superhuman efforts to simply survive?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Eminovic, was that a time when, under such difficult

4 conditions, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was actually being formed

5 as an armed force, which in 1993 had to wage a battle on two fronts? Is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As a native of Travnik, as someone who was living in Travnik in

9 those days, can you tell the Trial Chamber that those days the Army of

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina was engaged in combat activities and defending

11 lines running across several hundred kilometres?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At the time, Mr. Eminovic, you were 21 years old; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the war had interrupted your education.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before that, you had absolutely no work experience.

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. In answer to His Honour Judge Swart, you said that like everyone

20 else you were obliged to work on an average 12 to 13 hours a day,

21 sometimes 20 hours a day, simply to fulfil your obligations and make a

22 living.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You also said that that year as a member of the Exchange

25 Commission for Prisoners of War you took statements from persons who had

Page 5866

1 been expelled, exchanged, or who had fled from areas and they had been

2 expelled by the JNA and later the HVO. Could you tell us roughly how

3 many statements you took during that year under the conditions as you

4 have just described them?

5 A. In the course of that year, I took at least 300 to 400 statements

6 from persons expelled from the area of Bosnian Krajina.

7 Q. As a young man, you had to face the terrible dramas of

8 individuals who were talking about Keraterm, Omarska, and other sites of

9 major crimes; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What you and your colleagues in the commission were doing was a

12 basis for the beginning of the work of this Tribunal and the many cases

13 that were filed before this Tribunal.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In addition to your immense efforts, is it true and were you

16 aware that you lacked the professional and capable personnel for all

17 walks of life in Travnik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it true that even in the army, which was being formed, and in

20 other bodies there was a shortage of qualified personnel who could in an

21 understandable manner for a civilised person write orders, reports, et

22 cetera? Did you encounter problems of that kind?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was that reason, Mr. Eminovic, why you assisted one another and

25 specifically Mr. Beba in carrying out those duties?

Page 5867

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Eminovic, the Prosecution in the course of their examination

3 showed you two orders. I would like to ask you to look at the order of

4 the 4th of July once again as well as the one from the 28th of June for

5 me to be able to ask you several questions about it.

6 In view of the conditions under which you were working, were

7 significant errors frequently made in orders issued or any other

8 documents issued by a particular body?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Working on other assignments, were you able to see that there

11 were certain contradictions in those orders?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Will you please look at this document dated the 28th of June,

14 1993 and page 2 of that document. It says that "Eminovic Jasenko is a

15 member of the operations group command." And you have explained that you

16 were never a member of the operations group command; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were shown another document which was issued only seven days

19 later, that is, the 4th of July, 1993. And in paragraph 4 of this

20 document, it says that you are an assistant for military security.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If one were to view this, then under normal circumstances you

23 could say that you had been demoted from a member of the command to an

24 ordinary clerk. But as you have testified in court, you were neither of

25 those things. Is that right?

Page 5868

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In answer to several questions from the Trial Chamber, you

3 described the work you did. In the order of the 28th of June, it says

4 that you were supposed to control the work of checkpoints. Did you ever

5 control the work of checkpoints in your life?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. As regards the second order, I think you already explained to the

8 Trial Chamber that you never carried out the duties listed in that order;

9 is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Eminovic, when Mr. Schweiger and Mr. David Re met you in

12 Sarajevo on the 11th and 14th of November, 2003, as far as I was able to

13 gather from your answers, they showed you these orders, didn't they?

14 A. Yes, they did.

15 Q. In connection with these orders and your own position as

16 described there, you told them exactly what you told the Trial Chamber

17 today; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In your statement, in none of the paragraphs is it stated that

20 these orders were shown to you nor that you gave additional explanations

21 in connection with those orders; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Therefore, even though you were ready to be a witness of the

24 Prosecution and to cooperate fully, at the time you gave your statement

25 what you told representatives of the OTP was not included in that

Page 5869

1 statement; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Eminovic, you said that this was a period when

4 the army was being formed. So is it true that it was being formed --

5 that at the same time the operations group Bosnian Krajina was being

6 formed as an entity?

7 A. [No interpretation]

8 Q. Is it also true that many people then were doing several jobs and

9 there were frequent changes regarding the position of individuals?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

11 show the witness two documents which the Defence -- will you please

12 answer my question.

13 Q. Was this the time when the operations group Bosanska Krajina was

14 being formed?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown two

17 documents which the Defence found in the archives of the BH army. And I

18 would just like them to be marked for identification because I don't

19 think we can tender them through this witness into evidence.

20 These are two documents. One was June 1993, and the other number

21 is 0940 of 28th of June, 1993 -- 28th of August, 1993 -- 20th of August.

22 Q. In response to the question of the learned friends, you said that

23 in mid-1993 Salko Beba became assistant commander of the OG Bosanska

24 Krajina for security matters. This is an order. I don't know whether

25 you have seen it and you can speak about it, but I would like to ask you

Page 5870

1 that for provisional military war duties a person had to be appointed by

2 the 3rd Corps command or the staff of the Supreme Command.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it true that the bottom of the order there is a sentence

5 saying that "the OG is a formation of provisional character and people

6 appointed on the basis of that order continue -- will continue to carry

7 out their duties"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that Salko Beba in mid-1993 was a member of the State

10 Security, that is, of the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it true that at that time he was president of the Commission

13 for Exchanges of Travnik?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This was the third function that Salko Beba was appointed to.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was this one of the ways in which one proceeded at that time;

18 when a person had to carry out several duties, whether he was appointed

19 to them or not, in order to survive?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please look at the other document. 28th is the

22 date. -- 20th of August is the date. From the document, we can see a

23 proposal of the commander of the OG, Mehmed Alagic, asking of the command

24 of the 3rd Corps to have this previous order annulled because at the time

25 the OG did not exist as a formation. Is that what is said in that

Page 5871

1 proposal?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was this one of the documents which confirms the full complexity

4 of the conditions under which we had to work when the bodies were just

5 forming and being disformed in a very short period of time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In that document, point 4 - it is in fact the answer to your

8 question - it is clearly asked that Salko Beba should remain permanently

9 employed as State Security inspector in the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 for the Zenica sector and only when he was reappointed on the basis of a

11 new 3rd Corps order it was necessary to resolve this issue so that his

12 service in the MUP could continue to exist.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is this one of the documents that in a very concrete way points

15 to the concreteness of the conditions and complexity of the conditions

16 whereby bodies were being formed and people being appointed for permanent

17 or ad hoc tasks?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Eminovic --

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please mark these

21 documents for identification. And then the Defence will suggest --

22 propose their adoption.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As regards the documents

24 produced by the Prosecution, does the Prosecution ask the documents to be

25 given to them? To have these documents admitted?

Page 5872

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think there was an

2 objection on the other side that the witness had not recognised the

3 documents, and so they objected to the fact that it be going in. So I

4 think it would just have to be marked for identification, if I'm correct.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Then we will give

6 two provisional numbers. We have several documents coming from the

7 Prosecution.

8 You have the documents of the Prosecution. Can you give us the

9 provisional numbers.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The statement dated -- for

11 the record, Your Honour, the statement dated the 14th of November, 2003

12 will be Prosecution Exhibit 103, marked for identification, and 103/E,

13 marked for identification.

14 The order dated the 4th of July, 1993 will be Prosecution 104 and

15 Prosecution 104/E for the English translation.

16 The order dated 28th of June, 1993 will be Prosecution Exhibit

17 105 and Prosecution Exhibit 105/E, all marked for identification, Your

18 Honours.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have just resolved the

20 question of the Prosecution documents. Now we have the two documents

21 provided by the Defence. We need numbers for them too, provisional

22 numbers.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The document dated the 12th

24 of June, 1993 will be marked DH125 and DH125/E, marked for

25 identification.

Page 5873

1 The document dated the 20th of August, 1993 will be DH126 and

2 DH126/E for the translation, marked for identification.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, I would like,

5 Mr. President, to say that given the fact that the statement of Eminovic

6 has been identified, the one that was presented to him during

7 cross-examination as a hostile witness, it could be only used to

8 disqualify the witness and not as evidence.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, it has been given a

10 provisional number.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Eminovic, several times you explained to us that you assisted

13 Mr. Salko Beba in conducting some of his duties, and then you explained

14 that you had a military ID of the Military Security Service of the

15 3rd Corps; is that so?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At the time, in the broader area of Travnik, from Turbe, Travnik,

18 Guca Gora, all the way up to Zenica, this was the permanent area of

19 battles; is that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Without permission to move, it was difficult to pass through the

22 area and especially to carry out provisional jobs that you yourself had

23 to carry out for the benefit of Mr. Beba as transport of the military

24 police; is that so?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5874

1 Q. Is that the reason why the security body of the 3rd Corps issued

2 this ID to you, so that you could move around more freely in conducting

3 those limited jobs that you had to perform for Mr. Beba?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, since you mentioned a name in your

6 statement, who issued you with that military ID.

7 A. Mr. Salko Beba, and he received the ID from the command of the

8 3rd Corps.

9 Q. Is it an idea which was issued by Ramiz Dugalic as his immediate

10 senior officer?

11 A. I don't remember who issued that. The Military Security Service

12 of the 3rd Corps issued this, but I don't know who signed the document --

13 the ID.

14 Q. You said that you had not been appointed to any post in the OG or

15 any other military formation. Is it true that a security body of the

16 3rd Corps is a body that could appoint a person in a military formation

17 or to a military post [as interpreted]?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. In addition to the fact that you had a military ID, you were

20 quite clear about not belonging to bodies of the 3rd Group or to the OG,

21 is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In the translation, there is a

24 mistake. I said, "Is that true that the security body of the 3rd Corps

25 was not able to appoint persons to military duties." In the transcript

Page 5875

1 it says the opposite. So can this be corrected.

2 Q. In the course of yesterday, Judge Swart put several questions to

3 you in relation to the practice and theory of the application of

4 international law. You answered that you had seen how the military

5 police was securing the monastery in Guca Gora and the church in Travnik.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In response to the question of my learned friend, you mentioned

8 that thefts had been committed in that area; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would like to ask you with the same amount of certainty or

11 uncertainty that in performing your functions had you heard or known

12 about that a large number of members of the army were criminally charged

13 because they had -- that they were thieving and plundering, looting the

14 Croatian houses?

15 A. I had heard that reports had been made, but I had no official

16 information about that.

17 Q. As far as you know and on the basis of information that you heard

18 from other persons, was this one of the reasons why in response to my

19 questions you said that you believed that the bodies of the army tried to

20 have the Geneva Conventions respected?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In respect of the detention in the barracks in Travnik; several

23 questions were asked in that connection. And in connection with

24 Mr. Bonic I would like to ask the following question: Are you aware

25 that after you had taken the statement from him, with regard to the

Page 5876

1 surroundings of his capture and the killing of the soldier and the

2 severing of the ears, did the competent security body bring charges

3 against Bonic? Are you aware of that?

4 A. I know that the crime department of the military police took a

5 statement again about the other circumstances, and I know that criminal

6 charges had been brought against Mr. Bonic.

7 Q. Mr. Eminovic, do you know that when criminal charges are pressed

8 that it is within the competence of the court to determine or extend

9 detention or custody against a person and then it is the -- and then the

10 Military Security Service has no longer anything to do with the case?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you aware that on the basis of our laws and on the basis of a

13 decision of an investigation judge that a person could be kept in

14 detention for a period of six months?

15 A. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know about those details.

16 Q. Is it true, Mr. Eminovic, that in respect to the persons that

17 have been criminally charged, the control of the prison conditions is

18 carried out by the court instigating the proceedings?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it true that security -- the securing of the persons is

21 carried out by the court police, that is, not part of the Bosnian army?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In response to a question of our learned friend, you said you

24 heard that some of the detainees were mistreated, and in your statement

25 you said that Salko Beba spoke about this to responsible persons in the

Page 5877












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5878

1 17th Krajiska Brigade; is that so?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you heard about this mistreatment, is it true that you did

4 not hear who these persons were; that is to say, whether they were

5 arrested members of the army or perhaps persons that were awaiting to be

6 transferred to the prison in Zenica or were awaiting exchange? Is that

7 so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that that person of the 17th Krajiska Brigade informed

10 Salko Beba that such excesses were taking place with people coming --

11 soldiers coming into the barracks and that he hadn't the means or the

12 power to prevent them from doing that?

13 A. Could you please clarify the question.

14 Q. You said in your statement that the military police that were

15 securing the prisoners were not able to prevent people -- soldiers from

16 coming into the cells. The last sentence was that "Beba spoke on the

17 subject with people from the Krajina Brigade." Is that something that

18 you found out about? This is point 5.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After the discussion between Salko Beba and people of the 17th

21 Brigade, after that, did you hear about further mistreatment of people

22 who were detained in the Travnik barracks?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 In response to Judge Swart's question, you spoke about lecturing

Page 5879

1 on your knowledge about humanitarian law and the Geneva Conventions, and

2 you quoted that besides having knowledge from the academy you had some

3 orders and documents coming from the 3rd Corps. In the cross-examination

4 yesterday I showed you some specific orders relating to protection of

5 buildings, and yesterday in response to the question of the Judge, I

6 asked and was provided from Sarajevo yesterday an order of the 3rd Corps

7 which we found in the archives of the ABiH army during investigation.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] So I ask this document to be

9 shown to the witness so that I can then subsequently put a question to

10 him.

11 Q. Mr. Eminovic, my question is first: Have you seen this document

12 before? And if so, was it part of the literature, if I can call it that,

13 that you used when training military policemen how to perform their

14 duties and how to collect data for war crimes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is this a document that you referred to in answer to a question

17 from His Honour the Judge when you said that you also had some documents

18 from the 3rd Corps command?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in view of the

21 fact that the witness has identified the document as one that he used in

22 his work and which he received from the 3rd Corps command, I should like

23 to tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the Prosecution opposes tendering

25 this document into evidence. If Your Honours, please, have a look at

Page 5880

1 page 1 of the B/C/S version. It appears from what the document looks

2 like that the lower part of the document is missing. There is no

3 signature on it, and the document looks like - and I'm not suggesting

4 that it actually happened - but it looks like as if certain portions of

5 the first page were not copied. Defence may be in a position to explain

6 what happened.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence, for your

8 comments regarding the appearance of the document and the first page of

9 the document in B/C/S.

10 MR. WITHOPF: And if Your Honours and the Defence -- from the

11 Defence side please also consider that the holes in the document - and

12 this is again underlining what the Prosecution is saying - that the holes

13 indicate that a certain portion of the document is missing. And quite

14 interestingly, in the document we used today the signature of the person

15 is at the very bottom of the document. I don't know for what reason

16 portions of this document are missing. Defence may please explain it to

17 the Court.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, I

19 should like to point out that the witness recognised these documents -

20 these are excerpts from the Criminal Code relating to war crimes - as

21 being documents that he used during the course of his work, and it is on

22 that basis that the document cans be admitted.

23 Secondly, I already said that I asked my investigators in

24 Sarajevo yesterday because I know that one of the Prosecution witnesses

25 whose statement was disclosed to us said that he had compiled this

Page 5881

1 document, and so our investigators took steps and found in the army

2 archives this document. This is a wartime document which, probably

3 because of the conditions during wartime, has many shortcomings. This

4 was sent to me by fax yesterday. It was translated in great haste. And

5 it is quite possible that during the process of copying some technical

6 errors may have been made. But I can bring the original document which

7 arrived with the fax so you can see it, that it arrived from Sarajevo

8 yesterday.

9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the fax line is obviously missing.

10 The fax report is obviously missing on the document that has been

11 provided to the Court and the Defence, and the Court is certainly very

12 well aware that the issue of the signature of the accused Hadzihasanovic

13 has been addressed in the recent filings of the Defence in respect to the

14 admissibility of the Prosecution's documents. So the Prosecution would

15 like to know whether the original of this document has the signature of

16 the accused Hadzihasanovic on it and, if so, we would like to get the

17 original of the document, please.

18 The Prosecution is not objecting against admitting into evidence

19 the legal provisions which are attached to the 26th of June, 1993 order,

20 but it's objecting against the admission into evidence and it's also

21 objecting against marking it for identification. And we're talking about

22 the actual order of the 26th of June, 1993.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are two problems: There

24 is first articles from the Penal Code, 141 and onwards, which do not pose

25 any problem at all, and that go as far as Article 155. And a second

Page 5882

1 point, that is the first -- that is, the first page in B/C/S of a

2 document coming from Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic, but on the technical

3 level there's a little problem and that is that the bottom of the page

4 seems to have been cut off because theoretically one should see a little

5 stamp. It must have been marked somewhere. And this is missing. So one

6 might imagine that the document was cut in half and that a bottom of the

7 page has been added without a signature. So perhaps it would be a good

8 idea to have the original at least.

9 So we're going to mark it for identification only, in view of the

10 objections, though most of the document consists of articles from the

11 Criminal Code, which do not cause any problems -- unless Mr. Bourgon has

12 something to add.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Concerning the admissibility of documents, as the Chamber knows,

15 this is a subject that we will be discussing next week for at least two

16 days, to see whether a document is admissible or not. As underlined by

17 my friend from the Prosecution, for many of the contested documents the

18 question of signature is an important question. For documents that do

19 not have a signature, the Defence notes this fact as a grounds for

20 challenging the admissibility of a document, because a document without a

21 signature does not allow the Chamber to draw conclusions from it without

22 having a sufficient amount of information, without knowing that the

23 document is sufficiently reliable to allow the Chamber to make useful

24 conclusions from it. Therefore, a document of this kind cannot be

25 admissible except through the support of additional evidence in the form

Page 5883

1 of testimony.

2 In this particular case, we have a witness in the chamber. The

3 witness knows not only the instructions he used in training but he also

4 knows that those instructions came from the 3rd Corps and that he used

5 those instructions for the training he gave to military policemen.

6 Therefore, Mr. President, we feel that all the necessary

7 information is available allowing the Chamber to draw the necessary

8 conclusions; that is, an order was given at a higher level, at the level

9 of the court, then transmitted to a lower level, to give everyone - both

10 the OG and the brigades and all members of the army - the need to

11 familiarise themselves with this. And this witness was aware of this

12 document. He took the document and used it in giving instructions to

13 military policemen, as he mentioned during his testimony. For those

14 reasons, Mr. President, we feel that this document has all the necessary

15 characteristics to be admitted into evidence.

16 We are quite ready to have it marked for identification and then

17 to produce the original.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But before giving you the

19 floor, Mr. Eminovic, the document you have before you consists of two

20 parts: An order, on the first page, without signature, and which can

21 provoke a discussion. However, let me ask you, though it is difficult

22 for you to tell us, do you remember seeing this document?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that the

25 first document - that is, the first page - you saw it, the page dated the

Page 5884

1 26th of June, 1993. Are you giving an affirmative answer?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's quite astonishing

4 because all the persons in this courtroom when shown a document that they

5 saw ten years ago, I can't see that anybody could be so affirmative about

6 it. But you're telling us that you did see this document and you read

7 this document.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read this document, and during

9 the training for the military policemen a couple of copies were already

10 in the premises of the military police and they were informed about it,

11 so the document was available to all members of the military police

12 company to read it. That is why I remember it. It was a public document

13 in the sense that every member of the army had to familiarise themselves

14 with it.

15 JUDGE SWART: The question is whether you have read the companion

16 letter, not the rest.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the question of the Judge

18 is: Did you read this first page? And do you remember reading it.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't read the first page. The

20 material that I received didn't have this first page.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ah, you see? So the document

22 you received did not include this first page; however, the articles on

23 genocide, et cetera, you remember having read them and seen them.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, based on this

Page 5885

1 information we just got, we certainly do oppose even marking this

2 document for identification. We certainly do oppose tendering into

3 evidence -- it into evidence, and the Prosecution still would like the

4 Defence to provide the Chamber with the full copy of this document.

5 There are many questions that remain unaddressed by the Defence, even

6 after they were given the opportunity to explain what happened to the

7 document itself.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that that is a fair

9 question. I've already told the Trial Chamber what happened. After we

10 received a statement from one of the Prosecution witnesses who is on the

11 list, who claimed in that statement that following instructions of the

12 3rd Corps commander he had typed out this document, in the archives of

13 the BH army we found the document. I didn't feel it necessary for me to

14 have that document when cross-examining this witness. However, yesterday

15 in answer to a question from Judge Swart the witness said that during

16 training he also used the document which he had been provided by the 3rd

17 Corps command, and that was the reason why yesterday we asked for that

18 document to be provided.

19 I will provide the Trial Chamber tomorrow with the page with the

20 fax report on it. In my office I think I have it. If the Trial Chamber

21 feels that this document should only be marked for identification as the

22 witness cannot recognise the first page of this document, the Defence

23 will try to bring persons to the court who will be able to show the full

24 authenticity of this document for the Trial Chamber.

25 What prompted us to provide this document was yesterday's

Page 5886

1 statement by the witness. So my question to the witness is:

2 Q. Do you know, even though you didn't see this first page, where

3 this -- the rest of the document came from, the document that you used

4 for training policemen?

5 A. Yes. Though there were several copies in the premises of the

6 military police, I received a copy from Salko Beba, who said it had come

7 from the 3rd Corps command, and I used this document in the training of

8 military policemen.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I am now asking for the document

10 to be marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Withopf.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has

13 certainly not a problem in respect to the articles which are attached to

14 the cover letter; however, the Prosecution opposes any attempt to even

15 mark the cover letter or the order of the 26th of June, 1993 for

16 identification. The document raises a number of questions which have

17 been addressed and haven't been answered yet. It can only be marked for

18 identification once these questions have been answered by our learned

19 friends from the Defence.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will deliberate and

21 render our decision after you have provided us tomorrow at the latest

22 with a cover page and explained the origin of the document, and then we

23 will see whether it can be marked for identification. Unless you already

24 have it; if you have it --

25 Madam Usher, go and fetch the document, please.

Page 5887

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My interpreter was probably

2 listening to what I was saying in the hall downstairs in the Defence

3 room, and he sent the document he used for translating, and you can see

4 the fax number of my office.

5 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the Prosecution doesn't have a copy.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, show this copy,

7 please, to the Prosecution.

8 It's the same document. Nothing has changed. We just have the

9 fax number of the sender.

10 MR. WITHOPF: That's exactly the point, Mr. President, Your

11 Honours. Nothing has changed, and I still wish to know from the Defence

12 what happened to the lower part of this page.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will rule on this

14 problem.

15 I must tell everyone that it is quarter to 2.00 and we should

16 adjourn. How much more time do you need for your questions?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just

18 completed my questions for this witness.

19 Thank you, Mr. Eminovic.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

21 Mr. Dixon, do you have any questions?

22 MR. DIXON: We have no questions arising from the

23 cross-examination by the Prosecution. We do note, however, that many of

24 the questions that were put by the Prosecution during their

25 cross-examination were questions that could have been put in

Page 5888

1 examination-in-chief. They were not necessarily questions that were put

2 to challenge the witness.

3 However, the Prosecution has elected to label this witness as a

4 hostile witness, and for that purpose they can no longer, in our

5 submission, rely upon this witness as a witness of truth. It's of course

6 a different matter what the Defence wish to submit about the evidence of

7 the witness and, of course, what Your Honours decide, given all the

8 evidence in the case, what weight to attach to his evidence. But

9 nevertheless, even though, in our submission, a lot of the

10 cross-examination was not true cross-examination, there are no questions

11 arising that we wish to put.

12 One final matter, Your Honour, is that we also wish to note that

13 the objections raised by the Prosecution regarding some of the documents

14 are significant, and this is a matter to be addressed next week, because

15 this is precisely what the Defence has objected to with the Prosecution

16 seeking to introduce some 600 documents as though it was a

17 straightforward matter and that no problems are to arise. However, it is

18 evident that many of these documents do need to be looked at in great

19 detail.

20 Thank you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Following the questions of the Defence, does Madam Benjamin wish

23 to take the floor?

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President. And in light --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And do you need --

Page 5889

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: In light of what has transpired in the

2 cross-examination, I'm afraid I just have to have one question with the

3 witness, because it is because of this very statement that was made why

4 this -- why the application was made.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

6 Further cross-examination by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

7 Q. At page 68 of the transcript, line 6, my learned friend said to

8 you, "At the time you gave your statement, what you told representatives

9 of the OPT was not included in that statement," and you said "Yes." Is

10 that correct?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please remind him

12 exactly. It went so quickly that the Chamber and witness are rather

13 lost.


15 Q. Page 68 of the transcript, line 6. My learned friend put to him

16 that "at the time you gave you statement what you told the

17 representatives of the OTP was not included in your statement," and you

18 responded, "Yes."

19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I don't know if we can get a copy of the

20 page of the transcript. Can we? Page 68, line 6.

21 It was put to him that what he told the representatives of the

22 OTP was not included in his statement, and he said yes.

23 Q. Do you recall?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Good. Now, please, the statement was made on the 11th and

Page 5890

1 the 14th of November, 2003. It was made in English. You answered this

2 morning that you speak English and that you understand English, and you

3 signed the statement in English. Am I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Before the official statement was made, a draft was presented to

6 you for you to make any corrections; am I correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I'd like to show the witness this document and give it to the

9 Court.

10 If you look at the top of the statement, the first page, you will

11 see "Draft 13.11.03," and it was presented to you for you to make any

12 additions, subtractions, omissions, deletions, whatever. And did you

13 make the necessary corrections?

14 A. [No audible response]

15 Q. Good. Then the official draft -- the official -- Mr. Eminovic,

16 could you please answer because when you nod, nothing comes up on the

17 thing. So could you please answer, please.

18 A. [In English] Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Then you got your final statement and you signed it

20 in English; is that true?

21 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. And that is when I asked to have the statement in Bosnian,

24 because I didn't feel sufficiently sure of myself to give a statement in

25 English in the Tribunal. You must understand that a mother tongue is a

Page 5891

1 language in which some things can be much more easily explained than I

2 would be able to do in English.

3 Q. I am very much aware of that. But we are coming to that. Okay?

4 So you signed the statement on the 14th in English. You got to

5 the Tribunal on the 19th of April, 2003 -- 2004, sorry. I presented the

6 statement to you in B/C/S. Was that correct?

7 A. [In English] Yes.

8 Q. I asked you if you had any omissions, additions, corrections of

9 any sort to make, and you made some corrections like the ones we showed

10 today. Was that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the presence of the interpreter and the investigator, I asked

13 you if you wanted me to conduct the proofing in English or if you wanted

14 an interpreter to speak your language with you. You said you wanted it

15 conducted in English; am I correct?

16 A. No. During our conversations, on a number of occasions I used

17 the services of the interpreter.

18 Q. You used the services of the interpreter when you made the

19 corrections on the statement. But I asked you if you wanted me to do the

20 proofing in your language, and you said no, you were comfortable with

21 English. And didn't we do the proofing in English?

22 A. [No audible response]

23 Q. Good.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. At that time, didn't I give you the opportunity to add, subtract,

Page 5892

1 delete whatever you wanted to that statement? Didn't I give you the

2 opportunity?

3 A. I think there wasn't time for us to do the proofing in 20

4 minutes. In paragraph 4 of my statement --

5 Q. In 20 minutes? We didn't have a time limit on you to do the

6 proofing, so I don't know where you got 20 minutes from. We started the

7 proofing at 9.30 in the morning and we had all day. On Monday, the 19th

8 of April, 2004; do you recall?

9 A. On Monday, we started at 14.00 hours. The driver picked me up

10 from the hotel, and he returned me at 15.00 hours.

11 Q. Correction, we did do it in the afternoon. But we didn't have 20

12 minutes. We started at 2.00. You're right. We did it Monday afternoon.

13 And we completed it. But did you ask to have any omission -- did you

14 agree -- did you say to us that what was told to the OTP was not in your

15 statement? Did you say that to me?

16 A. Yes. Those sentences are underlined in this text.

17 Q. Mr. Eminovic, I think you can understand English very well. And

18 we're going to go through it slowly. Okay? You said to the -- in answer

19 to my friend that at the time you gave your statement what you told

20 representatives of the OTP was not included in that statement; which

21 means, I take it, that when I showed you the statement on Monday, the

22 19th what was missing, you were asked to delete, add, subtract, whatever.

23 You did not add anything. So is it true now to come and say that what

24 you told representatives of the OTP was not included in the statement

25 when you had the opportunity to so do?

Page 5893

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Residovic.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think there may

3 be a lack of understanding here. The witness in answering a question

4 from the learned friend said on several occasions when she showed him two

5 orders, he said that those orders were shown to him in Sarajevo. And he

6 also said that he gave the same explanation as he had given here in

7 court. I just asked him whether that fact was included in the minutes.

8 Actually, I put a leading question to him: Is it true that this fact was

9 not recorded in the minutes? And the witness said yes. Therefore, in my

10 opinion, the minutes or the statement was not complete. But in good

11 faith of a lawyer's ethics, I think that the Prosecutor can confirm that

12 what the witness said is quite correct, and that is that two orders were

13 shown to him in Sarajevo.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this is a very, very serious

15 matter; hence the reason why we took the route we took. Because this

16 very witness, when he was shown the orders - and he can tell you - I

17 showed him the orders at the proofing. And he said to me that he had

18 never seen those orders, he doesn't know the orders, he doesn't know how

19 his name got into there. So I am at a loss, really. Because when you

20 can make a statement that you -- you premise your statement with the fact

21 of his knowledge of English and the fact that he didn't get a B/C/S

22 statement and then you say to him, "Even though you were ready to be a

23 witness of the Prosecution and to cooperate fully, at the time you gave

24 your statement" -- you haven't said anything about orders -- "what you

25 told representatives of the OTP was not included in your statement." And

Page 5894

1 he said, "Yes."

2 Now, if that is what it is, what happened on the 19th of April

3 when the statement was presented to you and you were asked "do you have

4 anything to add, do you have anything to delete,?" You corrected what you

5 had to correct and you didn't add anything further. So how could you

6 come now and make such an allegation and could be allowed to make such

7 an allegation and could be allowed to make such an allegation?

8 I think we need an explanation, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, will you try and

10 answer this question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When giving my statement in

12 Sarajevo, representatives of the OTP showed me an order of the 4th of

13 July, 1993. I told representatives of the OTP at the time that my name

14 was on that order; however, that I was absolutely not involved in those

15 activities. I said that here in court yesterday as well. And the

16 question of the Defence was whether any of those documents at the

17 proofing session prior to this trial, I was shown the other order as well

18 [as interpreted]. And I said that I wasn't a member of the operations

19 group but that I was aware of the contents of that order, because I

20 mentioned that order on banning illegal sales of cigarettes in my

21 statement on the 11th and 14th of November.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Mr. President, the question that we are discussing at present has nothing

25 to do with the witness. The question was raised by the Defence with a

Page 5895

1 very precise aim in mind, and that is to show that when a witness is --

2 meets with the Prosecution and they have almost a whole day with him, the

3 members of the Prosecution make notes, they draft a statement, and then

4 they show it to the witness, and the witness is asked "Do you agree with

5 what is in it?" The witness says yes, he makes corrections, and the

6 statement is finalised. The only thing that the Defence wanted to take

7 note of was that that statement did not -- that the investigators, when

8 they came to Sarajevo did not include the sentence saying "We showed the

9 witness two documents and he didn't recognise them."

10 So we are saying that ethics of an investigator or a lawyer or a

11 policeman when taking a statement should note everything of importance,

12 and if the witness doesn't recognise two documents, this is something

13 that should have appeared in the statement and it would have saved us a

14 lot of time today.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you will be given

16 the floor.

17 When the investigator saw you in Sarajevo and prepared this

18 written statement, did they -- they showed you an order and you said you

19 didn't recognise that order, even though your name figured on it. When

20 it was -- when you reread it in English, why didn't you ask that your

21 comment on the order should appear in the written statement saying "I

22 wish to indicate that you showed me an order on which my name appears. I

23 formally contest this document, which I never had in my possession?"

24 Through its question the Defence wanted to highlight this, saying

25 that your statement wasn't complete in that sense. So why didn't you

Page 5896

1 request that this point appear in the statement?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't request it because I

3 didn't know. No one asked me whether such details should be included. I

4 am not a lawyer. I am not familiar with the procedure. I didn't know

5 that this statement would be used in the way it has been used.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have identified

7 the problem at least. We have to complete this hearing. Mr. Withopf.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, since my learned friend from the

9 Hadzihasanovic Defence somehow tried to touch on the professional ethics

10 of the people who took the statement in November 2003, I wish to inform

11 the Court that the two individuals who took the statement, the two

12 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor who took the statement

13 certainly complied with all rules and regulations and there's certainly

14 not any reason to believe that they haven't complied with professional

15 ethics.

16 The Prosecution has made inquiries with the two individuals -

17 namely, Mr. Guenter Schweiger and Mr. David Re - whether these two orders

18 have been shown to the witness or not. If the Chamber so wishes, the

19 Prosecution can provide both as witnesses to this court and they may

20 explain to the Court what happened at the time.

21 The inquiries reveal that is Mr. Schweiger can't -- and I have to

22 go back to my e-mail to be absolutely correct -- that he doesn't remember

23 whether these orders were shown to the witness; and Mr. Re, according to

24 the information I got, doesn't remember it either. However, there may

25 have been one of the two orders within the binders which were taken at

Page 5897












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5898

1 the time with them for the interview of the witness, and it cannot be

2 excluded that one of the two orders were shown to the witness.

3 However, if the Court so wishes, the Prosecution can call either

4 of them as witnesses. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is not a question of

6 ethics, it's a procedure conducted within the investigation. And the

7 Chamber has noted on a number of occasions that when a witness is

8 interviewed by the OTP, the witness prepares a written statement and the

9 documents that are produced are not part of a recapitulating document.

10 So when a witness is interviewed and when certain documents are shown, as

11 happens in civil-law countries, there should be a list of the documents

12 shown and an indication whether the witness confirmed or denied a

13 document. And if there had been such a list, it would indicate that the

14 witness contested such-and-such a document. As that was not the

15 procedure, we have this kind of problem. It's not a problem of ethics

16 but a problem regarding the procedure applied in the investigations.

17 If we wish to avoid such problems, it would be desirable that

18 when a witness is interviewed and if there are documents shown to him the

19 witness should be asked to contest or confirm those documents in writing.

20 And when we come to the oral proceedings in the Tribunal, then those

21 documents could be produced.

22 Madam Benjamin, it was not a question of the ethics of the

23 investigators but a problem which is linked, rather, to the procedure

24 applied much more than an ethical issue.

25 Therefore, if there are no further questions, the Chamber wishes

Page 5899

1 to thank you. You were planned for one day; you have stayed for two

2 days. For a moment I thought you might be kept for a third day but

3 thanks to the wisdom of all the parties and the fact that the Judges have

4 no further questions for you, we wish to thank you and we wish you a safe

5 journey home.

6 And I should liking to ask Madam Usher to accompany you out of

7 the courtroom.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, we have a witness

10 planned who will have to wait again until tomorrow, so we will resume

11 work tomorrow with that witness; is that right? I hope he was informed

12 about the postponement of his testimony.

13 MR. WITHOPF: We have the witness available tomorrow who was

14 scheduled for today, and the witness has been informed accordingly.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will of course

16 rule tomorrow regarding the question of the document. There's another

17 remaining issue, and that is the Prosecution produced a document marked

18 in his own language, in the language of the witness. What does the

19 Prosecution intend to do with this document? It is the B/C/S document

20 which the witness corrected in his own hand. Does the Prosecution

21 request the admission of that document?

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President, for identification,

23 please, because I think it goes to the root of what -- the basis of the

24 application that was made in respect to this witness.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the document in B/C/S with

Page 5900

1 handwritten notes by the witness is -- the request has been made that it

2 be marked for identification.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] We have no objection.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, what will be

5 the number for this B/C/S document, please, marked for identification?

6 THE REGISTRAR: P106, marked for identification, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 The Chamber apologises to the staff, who have had to work for

9 half an hour longer. The hearing is adjourned, and we will all meet

10 again tomorrow at 9.00.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

13 April, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.