1 Friday, 23 April 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you call
6 the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,
13 Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager for today is Mr. Hasan Younis.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can we have the appearances for the Defence, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
17 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,
18 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna
19 Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
22 Mulalic, legal assistant.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber wishes to greet all
24 those present, the representatives of the Prosecution, the Defence
25 counsel, the accused, and Madam Registrar, who is assisting us today, and
1 we also welcome the case manager for the Prosecution.
2 Today we are going to hear a witness, but we first have to let
3 the parties know before we begin with the hearing how we intend to
4 proceed on Tuesday and Wednesday when we'll be discussing documents, so
5 that those two hearing days will be useful and will allow the Judges to
6 make appropriate rulings regarding the admission of documents.
7 The Chamber wishes to thank both the Prosecution and the Defence
8 attorneys for their filings regarding documents, indicating the origin of
9 documents, the numbering of the documents; and the Defence also presented
10 their detailed objections with respect to documents one by one, which
11 means that these documents which are voluminous, coming from both
12 parties, will allow us to properly rule regarding the admission of
14 These two hearings will proceed as follows and will be devoted to
15 five different subjects: On each of the topics that I'm going to
16 mention, the Prosecution and the Defence will express their opinions.
17 The Prosecution will begin. They will elaborate on the topic that I'm
18 going to indicate in a moment. Then the Defence counsel, both of them,
19 will express their point of view. If necessary, the Prosecution will
20 respond. And, of course, the Judges will put any questions they consider
21 necessary to the parties.
22 The topics are the following -- and the first topic, we believe
23 that Tuesday should be devoted to the three first topics and Wednesday to
24 the last two. The first three topics are the following: The first has
25 to do with the sources and origin of the documents. I'll come back to
2 The second topic will relate to technical problems related to
4 And the third topic will have to do with the relevance of
6 The fourth topic, which will be addressed on Wednesday, will have
7 to do with questions related to 89(D).
8 And the fifth topic will have to do with the documents which have
9 to be admitted only through witness testimony.
10 Regarding the topic of origin and source of documents and various
11 questions linked to authenticity. Regarding the origin of those
12 documents, in the columns "Sources and additional sources," the Chamber
13 notes that several sources or origins of documents are mentioned, and I
14 quote them: Sarajevo, the ABiH archives; the Zagreb archives; no source
15 for some documents. There's 353 and 409; 16B Sarajevo Blaskic "Defence
16 exhibit, witness Radic or Williams"; Sarajevo, 7th Brigade, Zenica
17 archives; no source of information for 114.
18 Then there are documents without stamps obtained from Vidovic.
19 280, it says "Kordic Defence team." There's also 282 indicated as
20 Defence exhibit. For 312, 320, it is indicated they were obtained from
21 the BiH Federation. We have to know what that means. 352 comes from the
22 Bosnian government. 512, from the Croatian Embassy in The Hague. 392,
23 Ivan Josipovic. Exhibits 392 to 97 were obtained from the Bosnian
24 government. The Travnik prosecutor produces 393, 394, and 395. Then
25 there is 398, 99, 401 coming from the law foundation; 403, coming from
1 the Croatian Television; 406 is Miskovic; 407, from a Dutch officer who
2 worked on the crime sites; 408 is a video recording made by an officer;
3 411, Dikic; 420, 21, coming from Zenica; 454 and 456, Team 9, a crime
4 mission site; 467, coming from the Defence Ministry of BiH; 468 and on,
5 from the RBiH Collection; 413 and 414, OTPD.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the President please slow down.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: There are several documents whose number has
8 not been indicated.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I'm going very quickly, I
10 see it is difficult to follow me. And I am indicating that Amnesty
11 International is mentioned for 479. 481 to 486 -- then there's one
12 coming from the crime committee in Zenica, 582. Then there are documents
13 that could perhaps be introduced now, 593, 594, 598.
14 Regarding all these documents and the sources indicated, before
15 taking a decision on their admissibility, the Chamber wishes to learn
16 from the Prosecution how those documents came to -- into their possession
17 coming from this same source. By way of example, how Amnesty
18 International sent this document, which appears as 479. Was it on the
19 basis of a written request from the Prosecution? Was it Amnesty
20 International itself that sent this to the Prosecution? We would like to
21 know for all the documents in what way those documents came to be in the
22 possession of the OTP. If it was within the framework of an inquiry or
23 investigation, how this happened; did the investigators go to the
24 archives in Sarajevo or -- and made photocopies of those documents.
25 Anyway, we would like to know simply in technical terms how those
1 documents came to be in the possession of the Prosecutor.
2 Also, the Chamber has noted on several occasions and specifically
3 yesterday that documents and orders coming from BiH were produced by the
4 Defence, whereas the Prosecution did not have them in their possession.
5 So how is it possible that if the BiH archives documents were
6 communicated to the OTP, the Defence has other documents which come from
7 the same archives and which the Prosecution does not have? So we would
8 like to know why the Defence has documents which the Prosecution does
9 not, because in the case of an investigation into an archives, the whole
10 archives is taken. And if some are left aside, those may be the ones
11 that the Defence picked up. So we would like to know how is it that
12 Defence produced documents which normally should have been in the
13 possession of the Prosecution. And the Chamber believes that in future
14 cross-examinations they might produce documents in support of questions
15 put within the framework of the cross-examination of General Reinhardt,
16 for instance, and those documents will come from the BiH army, whereas
17 they should have been in the possession of the Prosecution.
18 So regarding all the elements that I have indicated - the
19 Sarajevo archives, Zagreb archives, open sources, unknown sources - the
20 Chamber will next Tuesday request from the Prosecution that it gives us
21 specific explanations under which conditions it obtained those documents,
22 on what date, the way in which the documents were transmitted, and to
23 tell us also if they can why orders which were in the ABiH archives,
24 original orders, were not produced in the original, that we only have
25 copies. There's a mystery there too which we need to clarify. Was it
1 the archives services in Sarajevo which refused to give you originals, or
2 do you have originals which you copied and then you sent back the
3 originals? We need to be informed about this, because if we have
4 originals in front of us, some discussions that took place or that will
5 take place could have been avoided if we had the original documents. So
6 we need such additional explanations from the Prosecution.
7 Furthermore, concerning these documents, as I have said, we need
8 to be informed how those documents were collected. I have discovered
9 that the Croatian Embassy in The Hague has produced a document; there,
10 too, we need to know was it the Prosecution who addressed the ambassador
11 or the ambassador who sent the document to the Prosecution. We need to
12 know the origin of that document.
13 Regarding documents coming from the government, was it on the
14 basis of a written request from the Prosecutor or was it a spontaneous
15 contact from the government? So as far as possible, we would like to
16 have these matters clarified, as we consider them to be very important.
17 Regarding the authenticity of documents, to the extent to which
18 the Prosecution is tendering certain documents into evidence, it is
19 because the Prosecution believes that those documents are authentic. The
20 Prosecution has been able to see that in the filings of the Defence
21 authenticity is being contested. So in the light of the remarks made by
22 the Defence, the Prosecution needs to tell us on what basis they believe
23 these documents are authentic.
24 Regarding military orders, there are a dozen or so which come
25 from various sources, either from the BiH army or the HVO. The Chamber
1 would like to know what are -- what were the procedures applied by the
2 Prosecution with the BiH army regarding the diffusion of those documents.
3 We have noted on several occasions that documents beared --
4 carried the name of the addressee to the 312th Unit, to the 7th Brigade,
5 et cetera. Sometimes there was an addressee and in other cases there
6 were orders with no addressees. There's an order, but we don't know who
7 it is addressed to. So it would be desirable -- to the extent that the
8 Prosecution is able to do that, of course, because it is up to them; they
9 should have done this work in advance; and that is, to indicate to the
10 Chamber what were the procedures that their investigators applied
11 regarding these orders from the BiH army and the HVO, how they were
12 issued, they're oral orders, written orders, the nature of those written
13 orders, and how they were distributed, if the Prosecution is able to tell
14 us. They may not be able to. But if they are, they should tell us that
15 as they're asking for an order to be admitted and this is being
16 challenged, that they should explain how those orders were taken, made by
17 the BiH army. And then the Defence will tell us their point of view.
18 So that is the first topic. On the basis of what I have said,
19 the Prosecution will present to us all these elements; upon which we
20 shall give the floor to the Defence, which will convey their views. That
21 is the first topic.
22 The second topic relates to technical problems linked to
23 documents. We have noted on several occasions that documents were poorly
24 photocopied and again, questions arise. If an investigator of the OTP
25 photocopies a document, if he copies the original, how is it that on
1 copies that we have seen there are areas that are blackened out and that
2 are illegible? So these are important questions. If the Prosecution
3 could explain to us why documents were badly photocopied, we will be glad
4 to receive such information.
5 We have also noted that some documents lack signatures. When it
6 comes to military orders, it says "Commander," for instance, and a name,
7 but no signature. So several questions arise: Was this document signed
8 at a given point? Was it not signed? Was it a duplicate of an original?
9 Because as you know, in the administration of countries, there's one
10 document and then there are duplicates. The first document is signed by
11 the author and the duplicates are not signed. So the question relating
12 to documents without signatures is whether those documents are perhaps
13 duplicates, which would explain why there's no signature on them. The
14 Prosecution perhaps could provide us with some explanations in that
16 There's also contestations by the Defence regarding illegible
17 signatures. By way of example, there was a document which could be
18 attributed to the late Mr. Alagic, and there's a signature on it. In
19 theory, Mr. Alagic must have signed other documents as well, and the
20 Prosecution surely has in its possession Mr. Alagic's signature, and then
21 it is quite easy to say, "This signature, which is being contested," and
22 compare it with Mr. Alagic's signature appearing on such-and-such a
23 document. Therefore, illegible signatures could be dealt with in that
25 Then there are also documents which are written in hand and which
1 appear in the binders which you have provided us with. These handwritten
2 documents, one has to know again who wrote them, to what extent those
3 handwritten documents were in the archives. There's a whole series of
4 questions regarding handwritten documents. Perhaps the Prosecution can
5 enlighten us on this.
6 Also, sometimes documents in B/C/S have English translations but
7 the English translations appear to be incomplete. Then again, if there
8 are incomplete translations, why is that so? What is the reason?
9 So there's a whole list of technical problems that have been
10 raised, and the Defence has referred to them in their filings, and it
11 would be desirable for the Prosecution to clarify these problems next
13 The third topic, relevance, which is an important problem, as you
14 well know. The Defence in conformity with the oral ruling of the Chamber
15 has indicated in its filings the grounds for which they consider some
16 documents not to be relevant, but we don't know more than that. It's
17 just indicated that they are not relevant. If the Prosecution wishes to
18 have all those documents tendered, it is because they consider them to be
19 relevant; however, the Defence says that some of them are not relevant.
20 So let me give you a single example which will allow the parties to
21 understand better.
22 Document 33 is a letter from the commander of the 7th Brigade to
23 Mr. Kordic, and this letter has to do with volunteers in the 7th Brigade,
24 and there's a reference to Arab volunteers. It's a letter which was
25 written and which has to do with the question of the Mujahedin. The
1 Defence says it's not relevant. Regarding this type of document, we
2 would like to know - this is just an example - but we need to have
3 explanations as to why in the opinion of the Prosecution these documents
4 are relevant. So therefore this third topic of relevance, which is a
5 central issue, needs to be addressed by the Prosecution and to the extent
6 possible, if the Prosecution is able to, during their presentation they
7 should address the question of relevance by groups of documents, because
8 the Defence has indicated "not relevant" for each document, and the
9 Prosecution shall tell us why those documents are relevant by groups and
10 then the Defence will elaborate their position in greater detail.
11 The following topic has to do with 89(D). As you know very well,
12 the Rule envisages that the Chamber may exclude all evidence if its
13 probative value is substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair
14 trial. And a series of documents is listed which in the opinion of the
15 Defence should be excluded, as they would prejudice the accused and would
16 call in question a fair trial.
17 As everyone knows, the principles ruling a fair process is
18 impartiality and independence of Judges; the fact that accused has a
19 right to a fair defence; the public nature of the debate; that the right
20 of the Defence is respected within reasonable time limits; and the rights
21 of the accused to ask questions of the witness during the trial. These
22 are the principles which are observed on an international level on the
23 basis of the human rights and civil liberties and international
25 Therefore, regarding 89(D), the Defence tells us that there are
1 several documents which in their opinion, should they be admitted, would
2 prejudice the rights of the accused. Here again we need to know how this
3 would violate the rights of the accused and call in question a fair
4 trial. It's not sufficient just to say 89(D), but we have to have
5 explanations why this would be prejudicial.
6 As the Prosecution knows which are the documents which in the
7 view of the Defence do not -- are not appropriate on the basis of 89(D),
8 then the Prosecution will tell us why that is not so and then the Defence
9 too will elaborate. And if you ask of the Chamber that they exclude
10 certain documents, you have to explain why.
11 And finally, a fifth topic, which will perhaps be the briefest:
12 The Chamber would like to learn from the Prosecution and the Defence
13 which are the documents appearing in this famous list which should be
14 admitted only once a witness comes to testify; that is, in May and June.
15 That is, documents that have to be tendered through a witness. Perhaps
16 in this case too it would be interesting to learn the opinions of both
17 parties as to which documents necessarily have to be introduced through a
18 witness, as was done yesterday by showing the witness a certain document.
19 In that way the witness can authenticate a document and answer important
20 questions regarding the contents of that document. So that would be the
21 fifth topic.
22 What I have just said is the result of deliberations by the
23 Chamber over several days regarding these crucial issues, because we must
24 avoid being flooded by documents and the replies to all these topics will
25 clarify things for everybody, and the Chamber will thus be fully informed
1 and then be able to rule regarding the admissibility of those documents
2 or we might decide to mark them for identification and others will be
3 admitted as exhibits.
4 But I must remind that admissibility should not be confused with
5 probative value, which is quite a different matter. We are discussing
6 the admissibility of documents at this stage, rather than assessing the
7 probative value of those documents.
8 I wanted to tell you this, which means that next Tuesday the
9 Prosecution will address the first topic first and then the Defence.
10 I'm not going to give you the floor again on these topic, because
11 then we would reopen the debate. I think things are quite clear now.
12 The Chamber has the duty to avoid any wasting of time. It also has the
13 responsibility of allowing the Prosecution to present the documents for
14 its case and also to allow the Defence to contest the arguments of the
15 Prosecution, and it is within this adversarial debate that the documents
16 will be reviewed and the Chamber will appreciate the probative value of
17 those documents; but that will come later.
18 We have a witness today; he is Mr. Chambers -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.
19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. The
20 Defence wishes to thank the Chamber for the explanations regarding next
22 There's one question I would like to address: I spoke to my
23 learned friend from the Prosecution regarding the hearings for next week.
24 Next week a witness is planned for Thursday. My learned colleague tells
25 me that if the discussions are not completed regarding the admissibility
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of documents, then this witness could be cancelled for Thursday. But the
2 Prosecution also tells us that they do not wish to take this decision in
3 advance, before consulting the Chamber on this subject, as the witness is
4 ready to come but he can be postponed. And we would like to know,
5 because this is important -- an important witness, the witness planned
6 for Thursday requires considerable preparation and we would like to know,
7 Mr. President, what would be the position of the Chamber regarding the
8 hearing on Thursday, the 29th, if the discussion on the admissibility of
9 documents is not completed by then.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If the discussion on
11 admissibility is not completed next Thursday, it will continue, because
12 this question of admissibility of documents has to be dealt with as soon
13 as possible. And if we don't finish on Wednesday, it will be carried
14 over to Thursday.
15 But since we have structured the debate, we have indicated that
16 the first three topics should be addressed the first day, the fourth and
17 fifth topic should be addressed on Wednesday, I think that we will be
18 able to judge better on Tuesday at the end of the afternoon. We'll see
19 whether we are late or not. If on Tuesday we see that it is more
20 complicated than we expected, then the Prosecution can tell the witness
21 that he will be heard on another day. This matter of documents needs to
22 be regulated as soon as possible.
23 On this point, as you already spoke to each other, I didn't think
24 it necessary to give the floor to Mr. Withopf, but nevertheless, have you
25 anything to say regarding what has just been raised? You spoke amongst
1 yourselves, so I thought if Mr. Bourgon spoke, it meant that he and you
2 were in agreement. But as this is an adversarial proceedings, I give you
3 the floor.
4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, yes, that's correct,
5 this issue has been discussed between Defence and the Prosecution. And
6 as my learned friend from the Hadzihasanovic Defence indicated, the
7 Prosecution only wishes to make this decision at the latest possible
8 point in time in order to not waste court time. We will make such a
9 decision on Tuesday. Obviously, since we have the morning sessions next
10 week, it may or may not be possible to extend these sessions if possible.
11 That would be another solution to this problem. The Prosecution,
12 however; doesn't want to decide today or on Monday on this issue, since
13 we may cover all related issues on Tuesday and Wednesday very well.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we will
15 know where we stand at the end of the hearing on Tuesday and we will see
16 whether we can observe the planned schedule or whether, unfortunately, we
17 have to postpone the hearing of Mr. Morsink.
18 Madam Usher, will you be kind enough to bring in the witness.
19 Regarding this witness, I indicated a moment ago that there are
20 three documents on the list with his name, and the document you sent us
21 on the 15th of April -- apparently you plan to tender a document through
22 this witness.
23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the Prosecution will use during the
24 examination-in-chief of this witness Prosecution Exhibit Number P223.
25 That's the only document we intend to use.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Good morning, sir. Can you hear what I am saying in --
4 translated in your own language? If this is the case just say yes.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been named
7 witness for the Prosecution to testify about events in 1993. I would
8 like you to identify yourself, to give us your name and surname.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Guy Chambers.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you born?
11 THE WITNESS: I was born on the 9th of December, 1958.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which village, town, in
13 which country?
14 THE WITNESS: I was born in Colchester, in the United Kingdom.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that you're a
16 lieutenant colonel. What is your current occupation in the military?
17 THE WITNESS: I am a lieutenant colonel in the military, yes.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But can you tell us where you
19 are working at present.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Presently I'm working in Shrewsbury in the
21 United Kingdom, in part of the headquarters, the 5th Division, in the UK
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your
24 occupation in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
25 THE WITNESS: I was a major working in the military information
1 cell in the Bosnia-Herzegovina command in Kiseljak from September 1993
2 until April 1994.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
4 before a domestic court or an international court, or is it the first
5 time you are testifying before a court?
6 THE WITNESS: It is my first time.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since it's the first time that
8 you are testifying, could you please read out the solemn declaration in
9 your own language. The usher will give you the text.
10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
13 WITNESS: GUY PHILIP CHAMBERS
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since it is the first time you
15 are testifying in court, I think it would be useful to give you some
16 explanations about the proceedings. The Prosecution, which is to your
17 right and which you have met in the proofing, will first ask you
18 questions, questions based on a written statement which was made a while
19 ago. This is referred to as an examination-in-chief.
20 Following -- after that, that is, the -- there are six people who
21 are to your left. They will be asking you questions about the procedure,
22 and this will be a cross-examination. The questions will attempt to
23 verify your credibility and will ask you questions about the political,
24 military context at the time.
25 The three Judges in front of you might also, in view of the
1 common-law procedure, can ask you questions at any point in time, either
2 in function of the questions already asked by both parties, or if -- when
3 the Judges believe that it is necessary to answer points that have not
4 been made and which are important for the establishment of truth. And
5 then we shall be asking you questions, and when we ask you questions of
6 that kind, then the Prosecution and the Defence will also be able to ask
7 you questions after that.
8 You have made a solemn declaration. You have sworn to tell the
9 truth. You will not be able to make false testimonies. And in case you
10 do, you may have to face the consequences; but this is highly unlikely,
11 given your position.
12 It is also possible that a witness has to answer questions and in
13 the questions he provides it may be possible that some elements of his
14 answers may one day be used against him, because it may appear that the
15 witness has committed or has been an accomplice of a crime. At that
16 time, the witness can refuse to answer. This has been provided for in
17 the law of many common-law countries and also in the continental
18 countries too. In that situation, the Chamber can tell the witness to
19 answer the question but also pointing out that in that event the answer
20 can be used against him -- cannot be used against him. This is an
21 immunity granted to the witness, and in both systems this can be
22 attributed only by the Prosecution and not the Judges.
23 It may seem complicated to you, but I tried to summarise the --
24 how the proceedings will evolved.
25 If you have any difficulties, please point them out and try to
1 answer the question in a complete and concise fashion because we are
2 engaged in an oral hearing and what you say will shed light to us and the
4 If you note that the questions of the -- by the Defence are of a
5 certain nature and the questions -- the questions of the Defence will be
6 slightly different than those of the Prosecution, so, give thought to
7 both questions by both parties so that the Judges can be clear on this.
8 Mr. Withopf, I believe that you will be conducting the
9 examination-in-chief, so I shall give you the floor now.
10 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
11 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
12 Q. Good morning, sir.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Sir, you already mentioned that you are still a serving member of
15 the British Army. In what -- what is your current rank?
16 A. I am currently a lieutenant colonel.
17 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber briefly
18 summarise your military career within the British Army with an emphasis
19 on your deployments overseas.
20 A. I understand, yes. I was commissioned into the British Army in
21 1978. I then spent six years as a platoon commander of various
22 platoon-sized organisations, predominantly in reconnaissance, and in that
23 time I served in Cyprus, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany. I then
24 returned to the United Kingdom, where I was the adjutant of a United
25 Kingdom infantry battalion, and from there I went to staff captain in
1 headquarters 24 Airmobile Brigade, again in the United Kingdom. Between
2 1984 and 1985 I was for two years in Northern Ireland as
3 second-in-command of an infantry company, and from 1990 to 1992 I was a
4 company commander in Germany, and I also during that time served in the
5 first Gulf War in Iraq and in West Belfast for six months. From there I
6 went to Toronto in Canada and attended the Canadian Armed Forces Staff
7 College. And immediately on return from there I went on the deployment
8 in which this Court is most interested, from September of 1993 to April
9 of 1994 as the military information officer in headquarters
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina command in Bosnia.
11 Subsequent to that, I have held a variety of appointments, a
12 company commander at Sandhurst and second-in-command of an infantry
13 battalion, which included deployments to Kenya, training the Sierra
14 Leonean army in Sierra Leone during that particular conflict, and most
15 recently, last year I was the commanding officer of a covert surveillance
16 organisation in Kosovo, known as the Intelligence, Surveillance and
17 Reconnaissance Task Force. Currently, as I was previously mentioned, I'm
18 now in a staff appointment based in headquarters 5th Division in
19 Shrewsbury in the United Kingdom.
20 Q. Thank you very much. You already mentioned that you were
21 deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina between September 1993 and April 1994.
22 Can you please inform us as to where you were headquartered.
23 A. The headquarters were in Kiseljak, with a -- that was
24 headquarters Bosnia-Herzegovina command, though the commander of the
25 headquarters lived in the residency in Sarajevo and I spent some days
1 working there as well.
2 Q. Can you please tell us, sir, what was the geographical area of
3 responsibility of your headquarters.
4 A. The whole headquarters was responsible for the whole of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Tuzla in the north to Gornji Vakuf in the south,
6 from Travnik, if you like, in the west, to Sarajevo in the east. I,
7 though, had a specific area of responsibility within that.
8 Q. You already mentioned it; what was your rank at the time in
10 A. I was a major.
11 Q. What were your concrete responsibilities whilst being deployed
12 within the UNPROFOR military information department?
13 A. Yes. I was one of a number of officers in the small department
14 which was the military-information department of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 command. The small department consisted of a French full colonel called
16 Colonel Latapie, and six multinational officers, of which I was one, each
17 of which had a responsibility for a certain area of Bosnia. And each of
18 our responsibilities was to collate all the military information of our
19 specific area and make assessments -- report our findings, make
20 assessments on the warring factions, the conduct of the war, and to try
21 and make predictions about military action to come for the purpose of
22 ensuring our humanitarian aid avoided the major conflict areas.
23 Within that, I had three specific areas that I was responsible to
24 look at and understand, and they were the area were -- looked after by
25 the British Battalion, centred on Vitez; the area looked after by the
1 Canadian Battalion, centred on Visoko; and the area looked after by the
2 French 3rd Battalion, based at Sarajevo airport.
3 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber how information was
5 A. Information was passed to each of the six desk officers by the
6 various units on the ground. And in my case, my three battalions, that
7 is, the British Battalion, Canadian Battalion, and French 3rd Battalion,
8 their military -- they each had a military-information cell that would
9 pass us written reports and oral reports on a very -- on a daily and
10 sometimes hourly basis of what was happening on the ground. They would
11 also provide us with summaries and their own assessments of the war and
12 what the warring factions were doing to one another.
13 In addition to those primary sources of information, there were
14 many other sources, and they came from the United Kingdom liaison
15 officers, which were 24 captains who had a specific responsibility to
16 meet with the warring faction commanders and find out information. We
17 also received a lot of information from the United Nations Military
18 Observers, from the ECMM, the European commission military monitors, and
19 from a number of the non-governmental organisations from their travels
20 around Bosnia, who passed information to us.
21 Q. Would it be fair to say, Lieutenant Colonel, that you in your
22 position had a very comprehensive overview of all information which could
23 be gathered by independent sources?
24 A. Yes, that would be true to say. We -- I sat in the centre of the
25 headquarters and what military information we had, I had at that time as
1 good an overview as anybody.
2 Q. The information you got, was it put on paper?
3 A. Sometimes. But particularly from -- and sometimes -- and mostly
4 the information we received from the battalions was on paper, but the
5 information that we received from the United Kingdom liaison officers,
6 United Nations Military Observers, European commission military monitors
7 and non-governmental organisations, was normally oral, or verbal.
8 Q. The information you got, either in writing or oral or verbal, did
9 you summarise such information on paper?
10 A. Yes, I did. When the information seemed to be either important
11 or seemed to concur and form a pattern, then I would place that on paper.
12 What I would do every day was I would write a daily situation report
13 which was for myself, my own diary, if you like, on a computer, and from
14 that I would then contribute my -- summarise my daily assessments and
15 information into a weekly situation report, which I would compile on the
16 Sunday of every week.
17 Q. These daily and the weekly situation reports, where were they
18 sent to?
19 A. They went to headquarters UNPROFOR in Zagreb. They went to the
20 5th Allied Tactical Air Force in Vicenza. They went to all the
21 contributing nations' national ministers of defence back in their home
22 base and they also went back down to the units that we commanded to show
23 them our collective summary at the end of the week.
24 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Lieutenant Colonel,
25 about the purpose of these reports.
1 A. Yeah. The predominant purpose was to keep all national
2 governments aware of the situation, the detailed situation in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the external aim -- and, of course,
4 headquarters UNPROFOR. But internally, the predominant aim was to get a
5 good understanding of the war in Bosnia, the warring factions, for the
6 purposes of trying to avoid the conflict -- to allow for the humanitarian
7 aid -- the most effective delivery of humanitarian aid.
8 Q. Sir, you already mentioned your area of responsibility. Did you
9 travel a lot within that area?
10 A. I did travel quite frequently to Vitez and to visit the British
11 Battalion there, and also the British infantry company that was based in
12 Gornji Vakuf. I also travelled quite frequently to Visoko to visit the
13 Canadian Battalion, and French Battalion -- 3rd French Battalion at
14 Sarajevo airport. I further travelled to Mostar on occasion, and right
15 through to the southern flank of Bosnia-Herzegovina, right through into
16 Croatia and to Split. So I used to travel maybe up to one day -- one to
17 two days a week.
18 Q. How would you describe, sir, the military situation - and I'm
19 referring to the military situation between the HVO and the ABiH - within
20 the area of the ABiH 3rd Corps during the time you were in Central
22 A. Yes. The confrontation line between the HVO and the ABiH at the
23 time was predominantly or mainly stable in the southern end of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The one persistent confrontation area was Gornji
25 Vakuf, where we encountered many problems with the HVO and attacks on
1 humanitarian-aid convoys coming up through Gornji Vakuf. Obviously,
2 later in my time in around January or February of 1994, the Croat-Muslim
3 cease-fire was called and then the peace accord then followed subsequent
4 to that. However, within the certain - as I would describe them -
5 pockets of Kiseljak, which was a Croat pocket, Vitez, and the Gornji
6 Vakuf area, there were always persistent infringements on the
7 confrontation line as one side tried to gain advantage over the other and
8 small fire-fights around those pockets.
9 Q. In terms of manpower, which was the stronger army, the HVO or the
11 A. The ABiH was stronger, in terms of numbers of soldiers; and my
12 feeling was -- my perception is that they had a greater fighting prowess
13 and possibly they had greater motivation. The HVO, without question, had
14 much better equipment, and if they had had either the quality of
15 personnel and the commitment, they could have been far more successful.
16 But on balance, the ABiH were the more effective soldiers and the more
17 effective fighting force.
18 Q. In terms of manpower, they were stronger than the HVO, you just
19 said. Just for clarification, to what extent were they stronger than the
21 A. It is very hard to give a figure at any one time, because
22 obviously each side, Croat and ABiH -- or HVO and ABiH, would mass their
23 troops where they felt they wished to do an offensive or effect an
24 offensive. But I would say probably in the region of two times stronger
25 in manpower terms.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. To your knowledge and from what you have seen yourself, were
2 refugees, Muslim refugees, incorporated in ABiH 3rd Corps military units?
3 A. Yes, they were. There were two brigades of the ABiH army and
4 coming under the command of 3rd Corps specifically, and that was 17
5 Brigade - one-seven brigade - who were displaced Muslims from the
6 Krajinas; and there was another unit, I think it was -- I may be wrong
7 with my number, but 305 was again another displaced Muslim -- there were
8 displaced Muslim soldiers within that. The third unit that contained
9 some displaced Muslim soldiers was 7 Muslim Brigade, who were based in
10 the Zenica area.
11 Q. Did you get to know, Lieutenant Colonel, who was the commander of
12 the ABiH 3rd Corps once you arrived in Central Bosnia?
13 A. Sorry, would you have a name for him?
14 Q. Do you know a person with the name Enver Hadzihasanovic?
15 A. I know of Enver Hadzihasanovic, and I was aware of his position
16 as commander of the 3rd Corps. I never met Enver Hadzihasanovic, but I
17 was aware of him and I had some background briefing material on him which
18 was passed to me by the British Battalion.
19 Q. This background briefing material on Enver Hadzihasanovic which
20 was passed to you by the British Battalion, what did it reveal in terms
21 of Enver Hadzihasanovic's control of his troops under his command?
22 A. There are two separate items to which I am now going to refer:
23 The first is the personality briefs that were passed to me; and the
24 second is a more general assessment or recollection that I have of Enver
25 Hadzihasanovic and his command.
1 On the first point, when I arrived in September of 1993, the
2 British Battalion had collated a number of personality briefs on the main
3 personalties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was one personality per
4 significant military commander or civil -- or person of civil importance,
5 and those contained the name, nicknames, car, car registration, home
6 address, family details, telephone numbers, and such forth.
7 Regarding Enver Hadzihasanovic, the only thing I can remember
8 from that -- directly from that personality brief was the nickname that
9 he either liked to go by or was called by his men or perhaps by the
10 British Battalion, which was "The Fox." That is the personality brief.
11 With regard specifically to your question about what do I know
12 about his command and the command of his men, he was considered by the
13 British Battalion and by me and others to be an effective commander and
14 probably one of the most effective commanders of the ABiH army command.
15 He ran an effective corps who were battling on three sides - a
16 particularly difficult command, fighting HVO, the Serbs over in -- in
17 Travnik, the Novi Travnik area, and various pockets, the Kiseljak pocket
18 within his command and, of course, the Vitez pocket. A very hard command
19 to have to try and fight with. The general perception was that he was a
20 good, a strong, and an effective commander who had the respect of his
21 men. And he had a close relationship with the operational group command,
22 Mehmed Alagic, who from our perception appeared to be his, what I would
23 call, chief of staff.
24 Q. Being an effective commander, as you describe Enver
25 Hadzihasanovic, does this imply that the control of his troops under his
1 subordination was good?
2 A. I think in general terms that is true. In the environment of
3 Bosnia at that time, I believe that he had control over most elements of
4 his corps, yes.
5 Q. You already mentioned an individual with the name Mehmed Alagic.
6 Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the information you got at
7 the time about him, and again in respect to the effectiveness of his
8 command and control.
9 A. Yes. Mehmed Alagic is one of the few higher commanders that I
10 met, though only very briefly for coffee, and he was a man who you felt
11 was respected by the British Battalion and the forces within Bosnia. He
12 also was seen -- or it was felt that he was a very strong commander who
13 had the ability to grip and was quite robust within the 3rd Corps, in
14 terms of discipline or ensuring that orders were effectively carried out.
15 He also seemed to be the go-between, as I would put it, the interlocutor,
16 between Enver Hadzihasanovic and the Bosnian 7th Muslim Corps -- the
17 7th Muslim Brigade, my fault.
18 Q. Whilst you've been in Central Bosnia, did you get information on
19 troops which were called Mujahedin?
20 A. Yes. Before my arrival, a Captain Whitley [phoen] of the British
21 army, who was serving in the post that I took over, conducted some small
22 studies into the Mujahedin elements within the ABiH. He left me a short
23 report on his understanding of Mujahedin activity. I took that report on
24 and continued to monitor Mujahedin activity and the activities of 317 and
25 7 Brigade in particular. I was prompted though to study them slightly
1 more carefully by a request for information that came to me.
2 Q. You were just informing the Trial Chamber, sir, that information
3 on the Mujahedin was collected by Captain Whitley prior to your arrival.
4 Can you please inform the Trial Chamber from when to when Captain Whitley
5 was deployed in Central Bosnia.
6 A. Yes. He was -- his job was split between two locations. He
7 spent part of his time in Kiseljak in Bosnia-Herzegovina command and part
8 of his time in Split with the United Kingdom element that was based down
9 in Split in Croatia. Consequently, he was not able to concentrate much
10 time on the study of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he was there, in those two
11 locations, Split and Kiseljak, between April of 1993 and September of
13 Q. Does this mean, sir, that Captain Whitely collected the
14 information which -- on the Mujahedin which resulted in his report, which
15 was the basis of your own report, was collected between April 1993 and
16 September 1993?
17 A. I think the report that you're referring to quite rightly is the
18 response to the request for information, which I'm sure we may cover
19 later, from General Chambers in Vicenza, from the 5th Allied Tactical
20 Air Force. That was a blend of information. It contained some parts of
21 Captain Whitely's reports, but it also contained new information which I
22 had collated between September and November of 1993 and other information
23 that had come to me. It was a blend of information.
24 Q. The information which formed part of your report - and we'll come
25 to this report in a minute - is the result of information collected by
1 Captain Whitely between April 1993 and September 1993 and the information
2 you yourself collected on the issue of Mujahedin; is that correct?
3 A. That is perfectly correct, yes.
4 Q. What was the definition of "Mujahedin" whenever you used the word
6 A. "Mujahedin," by my understanding then and indeed now, referred to
7 the foreign national fighters who were fighting on behalf of the ABiH.
8 "Mujahedin" in all instances meant foreign nationals who came from such
9 countries as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, and so on. They were fighting
10 what they considered to be jihad, or holy war, and they were there really
11 trying to progress the Muslim fundamentalists or the fundamentalist
12 Muslim concept, as opposed to having a particular interest in the
13 inter-Nicene warfare that was present in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time.
14 The majority of them had arrived in Bosnia by various means and were
15 working with the Bosnian army, the ABiH, and a considerable -- a number
16 of them were looking to return back to their home, having ceased their
17 interest in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
18 Q. To your knowledge, Lieutenant Colonel, to your knowledge, within
19 which military unit of the ABiH 3rd Corps were the Mujahedin you just
20 defined as "foreign soldiers" active?
21 A. To my knowledge, we always believed that the majority of
22 Mujahedin were grouped; that is, came under the grouping of 7 Muslim
23 Brigade. And 7 Muslim Brigade was administratively and perhaps in other
24 ways under the grouping of the 3rd Corps. There were some fragments of
25 Mujahedin perhaps in other organisations. I heard mention of Mostar
1 perhaps, and we also were aware of a few Mujahedin who were working or
2 fighting in Sarajevo. But the main grouping, to our knowledge, was
3 under -- was based at Mehurici and was probably -- was under the command
4 of a character by the name of Abu Haris, who himself was under command of
5 7 Muslim Brigade.
6 Q. You were just saying, sir, that the Mujahedin were -- or did form
7 part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. How strong was the 7th Muslim Brigade,
8 in terms of manpower?
9 A. Approximately 5 to 8 hundred men. It tended to vary. As a
10 brigade, yeah, 5 to 8 hundred men.
11 Q. And to your knowledge and based on the information you gathered
12 from the variety of sources you mentioned earlier on, how many of these
13 5 to 8 hundred men were Mujahedin in the sense of the definition you gave
14 us a few seconds ago?
15 A. Probably no more than 2 to 3 hundred.
16 Q. That means 2 to 3 hundred troops within the 7th Muslim Brigade
17 were Mujahedin, meaning foreign nationals fighting within the ABiH?
18 A. That is correct. By our understanding, yes.
19 Q. The 7th Muslim Brigade, to your knowledge, where were their
20 battalions deployed?
21 A. Our understanding was that the headquarters of 7 Muslim Brigade
22 was based in Zenica, and the majority of their sub-units - by that I mean
23 the battalions and the companies within the brigade - lived the majority
24 of their time within ABiH 3rd Corps area. We were aware particularly of
25 the organisation of - or a company strength, maybe a little bit more, a
1 battalion, say - the majority of nationals being under Abu Haris at
2 Mehurici. But the majority of 7th Corps -- 7 Brigade lived within the
3 ABiH 3rd Corps area.
4 Q. In military terms, was the 7th Muslim Brigade, was it a strong
5 military unit?
6 A. Yes. It was a unit with which I was most interested not just
7 because the Mujahedin interest but that they seemed to be used
8 predominantly as an assault or an offensive grouping to conduct offensive
9 tasks. They had probably -- or they did have slightly better equipment
10 than the majority of regular or routine ABiH brigades. They -
11 particularly with the Mujahedin element - perhaps had a more robust or
12 offensive spirit. And for that reason, they were used in an offensive
13 mode, generally speaking, and they were used around the ABiH army area,
14 not exclusively in the 3rd Corps area. They did work in other areas.
15 But they were of interest to me because it made my job in some regards
16 relatively easy to predict activity because all I needed to do was keep
17 my eye on 7 Muslim Brigade and I knew then that there would be trouble
18 or, if you like, an offensive probably in the area where they were at
19 that time.
20 Q. What did you get to know, sir, about the discipline within the
21 7th Muslim Brigade?
22 A. I think there are a few issues here. Firstly, I think it is
23 important that we understand and are clear that the Mujahedin within the
24 7th Muslim Corps -- Brigade, sorry, were -- had arrived to fight a jihad,
25 as they saw it, perhaps arrived ill-informed and as a consequence were
1 disappointed in many cases to find the ABiH was not necessarily as
2 fundamentalist Muslim as they would have hoped. So there were a number
3 of disaffected and disillusioned Mujahedin. That's the first thing, I
5 Secondly, the more fundamentalist Mujahedin had alienated
6 themselves from quite a lot of the population by their very
7 fundamentalist beliefs. That caused frictions between the Mujahedin and
8 the local people. It also caused frictions between the military
9 commanders within 7 Brigade and, indeed, within the 3rd Corps, in whose
10 area they lived. The consequence of that is that they -- although they
11 seemed to be an effective military force in the offence, I more than
12 suspect that there were disaffected elements within them that were hard
13 to control and who were not popular, both with the local population nor
14 with some of the other military commanders.
15 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, since I wish to show the witness a
16 report on the Mujahedin, it may be the right time to have the break now.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is almost 10.30. We
18 shall adjourn for the break, a technical break. It is not meant for
19 Judges to rest during that break. It's a technical pause.
20 So we shall resume at five to 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may continue.
24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Sir, you earlier on mentioned today that you wrote a report on
1 the Mujahedin. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber on whose request
2 you wrote this report.
3 A. Indeed. We were supported -- the United Nations mission in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina was supported by the 5th Allied Tactical Air Force,
5 which is a NATO organisation based in Vicenza. The commander of that
6 operation was Major General Chambers of the US Air Force. He received a
7 morning briefing, probably on the morning of around the 30th of September
8 ,at which the word "Mujahedin" was mentioned. Consequently, he asked his
9 staff to find out more about the Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was
10 sent a fax known as a request for information from Major General
11 Chambers's staff posing me approximately seven questions, specific
12 questions about the Mujahedin.
13 I replied -- I worked on that form a day or so and I replied, I
14 think it was on the 2nd or 3rd of November, with a fax back to 5th Allied
15 Tactical Air Force in Vicenza with my answers back to their questions
16 based on my knowledge and the research that I had performed.
17 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, I'm now going to show you a document.
18 MR. WITHOPF: With the permission of the Trial Chamber, can the
19 witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit P223.
20 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour. If I could just interject at
21 this stage before the document is shown to the witness.
22 As Your Honours are aware, the Defence has not objected to the
23 admissibility of this report. It's one of the uncontested documents. Of
24 course, the accuracy of the report is a different matter.
25 But there are just two matters I'd like to raise before the
1 witness comments on the document. It's no problem for the witness to be
2 present for them, because they really are technical matters.
3 The one is simply to ask whether or not the short written report
4 of Captain Whitley is available. The reason why I ask that is because
5 it's the first time today we've heard that this report is based on
6 another report, and just to ask whether that report is going to be made
7 available at the same time.
8 And the second matter, Your Honour, concerns a matter of
9 translation. I don't know if Your Honours have a copy of the document
10 before Your Honours with the translation of the document. There is
11 attached at the end of the document a military flow chart of allegedly
12 how the army was structured. And, Your Honour, on that chart, at the top
13 of the chart, there are two different brigade numbers, mentioned, one
14 being the 7th Brigade under the 3rd Corps and the other being the
15 8th Brigade under the 3rd Corps. These numbers do not appear on the
16 translated copy, and I say this for the benefit of the accused and, of
17 course, the translators, so that it's absolutely clear that those numbers
18 that appear on the original in English should appear on the translated
19 copy as well. Number 7 and number 8 for the brigade numbers should
20 appear. I don't think there'll be any objection from the Prosecution on
21 that basis.
22 And in addition to that, the name with a question mark that is
23 given to the 8th Brigade, the El Mujahed name, on the translated copy it
24 appears right next to number 7 Brigade, and that again could create
25 confusion that that name is being associated with number 7, that -- the
1 7th Brigade, when in fact on the original it's quite clearly marked as
2 the name for the 8th Brigade and the place of Zenica, Mehurici is also
3 mentioned there in the same place where the 8th Brigade is indicated.
4 Whereas on the translated version it's quite confusing. It appears as
5 though it's situated next to the 7th Brigade.
6 So I just wish to clarify those matters for the record. I don't
7 think that the Prosecution would have any quarrel with that
8 clarification. It's simply to make it clear that the English version is
9 the governing one and the translated version should have followed that
10 but doesn't in all respects. That's all I wish to say. Thank you, Your
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to
13 Mr. Withopf, there are two problems that have been raised. The first has
14 to do with the report by the predecessor of the current witness on the
15 7th Brigade and consequently on the Mujahedin. That was Captain Whitley.
16 Is that report in the possession of the Prosecution? If it is, why are
17 they not tendering it?
18 And the second problem, which is of a technical nature and which
19 is linked to the annex on structure of the 3rd Corps in Zenica. And in
20 the English version, it is clearly indicated that we have the 7th Brigade
21 and another one called El Mujahed is quite separate; whereas in the B/C/S
22 translation there may be some confusion because the placing of the names
23 does not fully correspond. And since this is a document coming from the
24 witness, through your questions he can tell us that the annex fully
25 corresponds to what he himself drafted and that a distinction should be
1 made between these two units.
2 Mr. Withopf.
3 MR. WITHOPF: If I may please address the second question first.
4 It's certainly correct -- my learned friend from the Kubura Defence has
5 described correctly the situation on the translation. The lead document
6 obviously is the English document, and the witness can certainly clarify
7 all related issues to the translation.
8 In respect to the first question, the Prosecution is not in
9 possession of the report of Captain Whitley; therefore, the Prosecution
10 obviously can't use it and can't tender it into evidence.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 Mr. Dixon, you heard the response of the Prosecution. They do
13 not have the report of Captain Whitley.
14 Please continue.
15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Sir, I understand you have the report of the 2nd of November,
17 1993 in front of you. It is comprised of four pages. Just a few
18 questions for clarification.
19 Is is this the report you sent based on the request you just
20 informed the Trial Chamber about to Major General Chambers?
21 A. Yes, it is. It's an exact copy of the original that I sent.
22 Q. In the box on the first page on the right-hand side, it says
23 "Drafter: Chambers; Title: Major; Releasing Off.: Major Chambers," and
24 then there is a signature. Is it you and is it your signature?
25 A. Yes, it is me and it was my signature.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. On the first page under A, it's written your fax number and then
2 there following a few numbers, and then it says: "RFI from MGen
3 Chambers." I understand that's Major General Chambers.
4 A. That's correct. That is the reference. In other words, I am
5 referring to his fax or that of his staff, that they faxed on the 1st of
6 November at 11.30. And so I am answering that fax there.
7 Q. And "RFI" does it stand for "request for information"?
8 A. It does.
9 Q. At the very bottom on the box on the first page, it says:
10 "Update on Mujahedin in Central Bosnia." Does this imply that you or
11 somebody else had sent an earlier report to Major General Chambers?
12 A. No. I suspect, on memory, that the term "update" was making the
13 assumption that they were -- had been previously reading our generalised
14 report on Bosnia-Herzegovina, and therefore "update" was perhaps a
15 careless word chosen by me. We had sent no previous report specific to
16 the Mujahedin.
17 Q. Does this report you have in front of you, does it summarise what
18 you got to know from the earlier report or the information you have been
19 provided with by Captain Whitley, who collected the respective
20 information between April 1993 and September 1993 and does it also
21 contain information you gathered yourself?
22 A. That is correct. It is a fusion of an element of the report that
23 he left for me, and my own knowledge, and the knowledge of the British
24 Battalion based in Vitez. So yes, a little bit from April to September
25 of 1993, and probably more of my own knowledge and understanding from the
1 British Battalion from September to the 1st or 2nd of November, 1993.
2 Q. What was the basis of the information you gathered yourself in
3 respect to the subject matter of this report? What were the sources?
4 A. The sources were similar to that which I mentioned to the Court
5 earlier, predominantly from the British Battalion, or my primary source,
6 because 7 Muslim Brigade lived within that area, so they had the closest
7 contact and most detailed understanding of 7 Muslim Brigade and Bosnian
8 army 3rd Corps. And, of course, from all the other sources of
9 information, including United Nations Military Observers, European
10 commission military monitors, and so on. But my predominant source was
11 from the British Battalion and their military-information cell.
12 Q. Does this also apply - I mean the source of the information - to
13 the portion which was a result of Captain Whitley's report and which
14 finally formed part of this report, if you know?
15 A. Yes. Captain Whitley, I say, had no independent sources other
16 than the same sources that I had, and indeed, in the vast majority of
17 cases would have been the very same people that I was speaking to. And
18 the reason I can say that is that the battalion -- the British Battalion
19 with whom I had my closest dealing changed over in about October;
20 therefore, from April to October you had the continuity of the same
21 British battalion. So he was talking to the same people that I was in
22 that particular period.
23 Q. Sir, if you could please have a look at page 1 under Arabic
24 number 1. It says: "The ORBAT chart shows the latest information of
25 command structure of 7th Muslim Brigade, which is the primary
1 fundamentalist organisation in Central B-H." Can you please for the
2 benefit of the Trial Chamber elaborate what's meant by "primary
3 fundamentalist organisation."
4 A. "Primary fundamentalist organisation" means that they were the
5 main Mujahedin element within Bosnia-Herzegovina. I accept, and would
6 accept, that there may have been other very small or smaller groupings in
7 other areas, but "primary" meaning that this was the main Mujahedin,
8 i.e., foreign, fundamentalist Muslim fighters.
9 Q. In paragraph 1 of your report, there is reference made to what is
10 called a pictorial ORBAT chart. Is it correct that the pictorial ORBAT
11 chart is page 4 of what you have in front of you?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber explain in
14 your words the information which is contained in this pictorial ORBAT
16 A. Yes, I will. I'll endeavour to. What you can see in front of
17 you - and the Court may have seen similar before; I will assume that the
18 Court has not seen a similar chart - would that be correct? What this
19 shows is the -- it was a British Battalion product and I took their
20 product, this copy of this chart that you have in front of you, was -- is
21 but part of a bigger picture, a bigger ORBAT chart. And "ORBAT" means
22 organisation of a battalion. What it shows at the very top is, it says,
23 "BiH 3rd Corps Zenica."
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Please stop.
25 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Perhaps
2 the witness could point to what he's referring to and we could place the
3 table under the overhead projector so that we have the table on the
5 THE WITNESS: Excellent. What this is is part of a bigger
6 picture. You can see to the left-hand side here that the chart would
7 have gone on in that direction, showing the other elements of the Bosnian
8 3rd Corps. This, if you like, is the right-hand side of a bigger chart,
9 here, and what it shows is the breakdown of the Bosnian 3rd Corps in
10 Zenica, as the title here suggests.
11 Underneath of that, it is just showing this little "X" symbol
12 symbolises brigade, brigade-sized formation. With the number 7 to the
13 left, meaning that is 7 Brigade. And the word "Muslim" is written in the
14 middle. So that is just showing that the organisation that we're about
15 to look at in more detail is 7 Muslim Brigade.
16 In the box underneath of it -- where there is information
17 contained in a box underneath of a symbol, it means that that is hard,
18 firm, factual, and substantiated information. Therefore, what that is
19 saying is that the commander of 7 Muslim Brigade is Kubura and that the
20 organisation is based in Zenica and that the head of security for 7
21 Muslim Brigade is - excuse the pronunciation - "Nesiba Talic."
22 Coming below that, you can see that it is then showing a number
23 of battalions. The two stripes at the top the box indicate that it is a
24 battalion-sized organisation. And you can see to the left number 1
25 Battalion of 7 Muslim Brigade, the "7" to the right, is based in Travnik.
1 Incidentally, the crossed bands across the middle of the box
2 denotes it's an infantry organisation, which is predominantly all the
3 Bosnian Muslim army had. So you then have 1st Battalion based in
4 Travnik, 2nd Battalion based in Zenica, 3rd Battalion based in Kakanj --
5 and this is hard factual information, at Hotel Sretno -- the 4th
6 Battalion based in Maglaj. And when we say 7th Battalion -- sorry, the
7 question mark symbol here and here, because we were aware of a small
8 grouping of 7 Muslim Brigade, we felt, in Sarajevo, but we did not know
9 the size - that's the question mark - or its number or its specific
11 Coming down further, we then break down each battalion into the
12 known information. And you can see here there is - if we follow, number
13 1 Battalion of 7 Muslim Brigade based in Travnik - they had three
14 companies, one stripe denoting a company-sized organisation. Where the
15 information is known or was known, it is printed in the box below, and in
16 this example, 1st Battalion, one of their companies was based in Travnik
17 at that grid reference which is written there. And so on down for each
18 of the three companies, the information as we know it.
19 The same, of course, is so for the 2nd Battalion, with detailed
20 information as we know it, and the 3rd Battalion, and so on.
21 I would point out on this graph that Maglaj was, of course, at
22 that time -- had become a pocket, was surrounded, and consequently our
23 information regarding Maglaj was thin. Similarly, Sarajevo was a little
24 bit thin.
25 I just want to point down to here. Where we knew of a commander
1 being in command of an organisation, as I mentioned before, we would
2 print it, and here, for example, at Mehurici, under the 1st Battalion
3 based in Travnik, come down to this company grouping at Mehurici, with a
4 specific grid reference, commanded by Abu Haris which as I mentioned
5 earlier was the grouping that we believed to contain or almost be purely
6 Mujahedin fighters grouped under Abu Haris at that grid reference in
8 Just touching on, as I heard the Defence touch on, the 8th Muslim
9 Brigade over here to the right, El Mujahed, that grouping here. Again,
10 there was talk and discussion at my time that perhaps the 8th -- that all
11 Mujahedin, that is, foreign fighters, might be grouped or become grouped
12 under a new organisation known as 8 Brigade. And at that time, at the
13 time of writing this on the 1st of November, we did not know the detail
14 but we had heard talk that an 8th Mujahedin -- sorry, an 8th Brigade,
15 which would contain all of the foreign nationals, might well be forming.
16 MR. WITHOPF:
17 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. May I please draw your attention,
18 sir, to page 2 of the report and to the portion which is written under
19 number 3. It says: "The key Mujahedin element is portions of 7 Muslim
20 brigade (Chart attached.) Specifically the group based in Mehurici," and
21 then there's a grid reference, "is exclusively MUJ, commanded by Abu
22 Haris." Do I understand that MUJ stands for Mujahedin?
23 A. Yes, it does. It is an abbreviation for "Mujahedin."
24 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber elaborate on
25 the statement under 3.
1 A. Yes. Again, British Battalion information and from the United
2 Kingdom liaison officers was that there was a grouping based at Mehurici
3 at the grid reference that you can see there that was exclusively foreign
4 national fighters who perhaps considered themselves to be a group apart,
5 or a grouping within 7 Muslim Brigade but kept to themselves; relatively
6 speaking ethnically pure, in terms of they were all foreigners and no
7 local Bosnians.
8 Q. Can you please draw your attention to what is written at the very
9 bottom of page 2, namely, under number 9, which says: "7th Muslim
10 Brigade are troops that are reserved for the main point of effort. They
11 are never given defensive tasks. Their appearance in an area often
12 indicates imminent conflict." Can you please elaborate on this
14 A. Yes. The 7 Muslim Brigade, with its various component parts -
15 that is, the foreign nationals and in the groupings that also contained
16 local Muslim fighters, Bosnian army fighter, as opposed to foreign
17 nationals - because they were considered operationally more effective
18 than most of the other brigades and perhaps had better equipment,
19 slightly better equipment, and had the added value of the foreign
20 nationals, were a grouping - 7 Muslim Brigade, that is - that were often
21 used to create offensive action in an area.
22 When I say there that they were never given defensive tasks, it
23 could be that there were occasions when, if things were particularly
24 acute, that they may have had to take on some defensive tasks. But they
25 were generally speaking spearpoint, and to use the German military
1 expression as I have, the schwerpunkt of an attack or an offensive in any
2 one area. And there were occasions, of course, when they were used well
3 without sight, outside of 3rd Corps area.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. WITHOPF: --
6 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the transcript elaborate on
7 what you do understand under the spearpoint of attacks.
8 A. Yes. It -- we may be discussing command relationships later, But
9 my understanding is that if the Bosnian army felt that they needed to
10 create an offensive for whatever reason in an area, that 7 Muslim Brigade
11 would often be - more often than not, would often be - the organisation,
12 the troops that would be used to go to that area to conduct and start the
13 offensive. Perhaps joined by other groupings and organisations, but
14 usually they would be there at the very front of any offensive action by
15 the Bosnian army.
16 Q. At the very front of offences -- offensive actions by the Bosnian
17 army, does it mean that they were spearheading such offensives?
18 A. There were occasion, yes, where they were spearheading offences.
19 There were other occasion, I believe, where they were there in support of
20 offensive actions and were providing the robust, I say back-stop, the
21 robust core of that offensive. Sometimes they would actually be at the
22 very front. Sometimes they would be close to the front of that action to
23 ensure the success of that offensive.
24 Q. And since the Mujahedin formed a significant part of the
25 7th Muslim Brigade, would it be fair to say that the Mujahedin were
1 spearheading such offences?
2 A. On occasions, yes, they were.
3 Q. You already, Lieutenant Colonel, touched on an issue I wish to
4 briefly address now, namely that the 7th Muslim Brigade was occasionally
5 used outside the geographical area of responsibility of 3rd Corps. Do
6 you recall one or several of such instances? In particular, do you know
7 whether the 7th Muslim Brigade was involved in the ABiH attack on Vares?
8 A. To deal with the first issue, I am aware of a number of occasions
9 when 7 Muslim Brigade were used outside of the 3rd Corps area, and in
10 particular in Fojnica, in Gornji Vakuf. And I am aware that they were
11 conduct -- sorry, and Fojnica was down in the -- I think the 4th Corps
12 area. And there were occasions -- certainly there was an occasion where
13 they were used for some period of time up in Vares, which was up in the
14 2nd Corps area.
15 Q. May I please draw your attention, Lieutenant Colonel, to page 2,
16 number 7. There it says: "7th Muslim Brigade are grouped under command
17 of 3rd Corps." Can you please elaborate on this issue.
18 A. Yes. 7 Muslim Brigade lived -- had their bases - that is, the
19 battalions and the companies - almost exclusively within the 3rd Corps
20 area. To that end, it was our belief that they came under the
21 administrative command, which I will explain, of the commander of
22 3rd Corps, Enver Hadzihasanovic. By "administrative command" what I mean
23 is it is our belief that the 3rd Corps were providing them with weapons,
24 ammunition, water, housing, transport, and all of the logistic effort
25 that it takes to wage warfare. They also lived within the 3rd Corps
1 area, and in that respect one might expect in a regular army that the
2 commander of the corps area in which you live is also responsible for
3 personnel matters, discipline, and those other sorts of things.
4 Q. Just for clarification, the commander of the area in which such
5 troops are deployed is responsible for discipline; does this include the
6 responsibility, the duty, and the power to punish any crimes?
7 A. On a routine basis, in a regular army garrisoned in the area
8 which you command, that would be the case.
9 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no
11 further questions at this point in time.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
13 I am turning to the Defence, which I think asked for some time to
14 prepare for the cross-examination.
15 Madam Residovic.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we said earlier
17 on, in view of the fact that this is a witness who testified today that
18 he based his reports and knowledge not only on UNPROFOR reports - that
19 is, the British, Canadian, and French Battalions - but also on reports he
20 had access to from the European monitors, we have asked that the
21 cross-examination of this witness take place after we have a chance to
22 review the new 10.000 documents.
23 As the Prosecution stated this morning, the witness will be
24 available on Monday for the cross-examination, when the Defence will be
25 quite ready to do the cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Therefore, the
2 cross-examination will take place on Monday, starting at 2.15. I wish to
3 point out to the Defence that the duration of the examination-in-chief
4 was exactly 69 minutes and that in view of the instructions that we gave
5 regarding the time available to the Defence, the Defence will have
6 exactly 1 hour 43 minutes -- let's say 1 hour and three-quarters.
7 It is possible to imagine that after the cross-examination there
8 may be re-examination, and it is almost certain that the Judges will have
9 questions too, which means that the Monday hearing will be fully made use
11 Colonel, I'm afraid you will have to come back on Monday. We
12 hope you will enjoy your visit in this town in the meantime. You may be
13 going back home. I don't know. Anyway, between today and Monday, you
14 are prohibited from contacting anyone, either the Prosecution or the
15 Defence, because such is the procedure. As you have taken the solemn
16 declaration, you are now a witness of justice, and neither party may
17 interfere. That is why there is this prohibition on any contact with the
18 Prosecution or the Defence. Therefore, we would like to wish you an
19 enjoyable weekend, and Madam Usher is going to escort you out of the
20 courtroom and invite you to come back on Monday at 2.15.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we have some time available,
24 regarding the planning for next week, it was discussed at length, but to
25 make sure there's no confusion, Mr. Withopf, could you tell us again the
1 main points for next week, bearing in mind that Friday is a holiday.
2 MR. WITHOPF: For this purpose, could we please go into closed
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 Madam Registrar, can we go into private session, please.
6 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Pages 6058 to 6066 – redacted – private session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. You
13 have the floor.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in connection with
15 the document which the Defence showed the witness Eminovic and which has
16 DH128 ID, the problem arose with regard to the front page, and the Trial
17 Chamber instructed the Defence to provide an explanation.
18 We have instructed our investigator to send us a scanned page
19 electronically of the document which is in the BH archives, and we also
20 received a statement by the head of the archives of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina that the mentioned document is in the archives in this form.
22 As this statement and document has been translated, I would now
23 like to ask this document and statement to be handed to the Trial
24 Chamber. During the break, we gave the document to the Prosecution. We
25 also asked them whether they needed an electronic version as well. They
1 told us that the document they have received would suffice. And I think
2 that the questions raised in connection with this document have been
3 resolved, and we should now like to tender this document into evidence.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The document that
5 was discussed several days ago had problems linked to the photocopy. The
6 Defence tells us that the document comes from the archives of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and is producing a statement to that effect by the
8 official responsible for the army archives and which -- and this
9 statement has been translated.
10 Does the Prosecution still have any reservations regarding this
11 document that was marked for identification, or can it now become an
12 exhibit, in view of what has been done to authenticate the said document?
13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, after the explanation
14 given by my learned friend from the Hadzihasanovic Defence, there are no
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In those
17 circumstances, the ID number becomes an exhibit number.
18 So, Madam Registrar, please make sure that this document now has
19 an exhibit number, both in B/C/S and in English. Simply, we need to
20 attach to the document that was originally tendered the new document that
21 we received today. And it, too, should be given a number.
22 So we need four exhibit numbers, in fact, the original document
23 plus the others.
24 THE REGISTRAR: So for this DH128 ID will become DH128; and the
25 next document will be DH129.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But as we have them in
2 B/C/S and in English, DH129/E and the other one /BCS.
3 In any event, in the meantime we have taken note of the fact that
4 the document that was DH128 ID becomes DH128, and the new document is
6 I wish to thank everyone attending the hearing today, and I
7 invite you to come back on Monday at 2.15.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.08 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of
10 April, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.