Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7097

1 Tuesday, 11 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Tecla Benjamin,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, the case manager.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

15 Appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

17 morning, Mr. President. Representing General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mr. Demirdjian,

19 legal assistant. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence counsel,

21 please.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

23 Representing Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

24 Mulalic, legal assistant. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 7098

1 The Chamber would like to greet everybody in the courtroom,

2 representatives of the Prosecution, the Defence counsel, the accused, as

3 well as everybody present in the courtroom. We shall now continue with

4 the testimony we started yesterday. We are in Courtroom II, which is

5 much more -- cosier, because we are very close to each other. We could

6 not work in Courtroom III, but when we have the map, which we need today,

7 maybe we can stick it to the wall if possible. Mr. Bourgon has to take

8 into account the size of the map and the size of the courtroom to see

9 whether this would be possible. I don't know whether the registry has

10 taken this into consideration when choosing the courtroom.

11 Can Madam Usher please bring the witness into the courtroom.

12 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. It

14 seems that we have a minor technical problem with the audio system.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe in that case it would be

16 good if the registrar could call the technician into the courtroom.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Can you

19 please put on your headphones and check whether you can hear me. Can you

20 hear me?


22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

23 Mr. Bourgon, do you still have the same problem?

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] On this side it functions, but on

25 the other side there's -- something seems to be wrong.

Page 7099

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems that the device was

2 not plugged in. Am I right in thinking that?

3 Does everything work now?

4 If that is the case, Major, today we're going to finish your

5 testimony. You may be sure of that. The Prosecution needs another 20

6 minutes. The Judges are going to put some questions to you after that.

7 And I believe that before half past 10.00 your testimony will be over and

8 you will be able to go back to your normal duties.

9 Mr. Withopf, you have the floor. You can continue with your

10 additional questions.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honours.


13 Re-examined by Mr. Withopf:

14 Q. Good morning, Major.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Major, I have five distinct areas I wish to address in following

17 up issues that were discussed in the course of the cross-examination by

18 my learned colleagues from the Defence.

19 Whilst cross-examined by the Hadzihasanovic Defence, you

20 mentioned that you came across checkpoints manned by Mujahedin. Can you

21 please inform the Trial Chamber as to where you came across such

22 checkpoints.

23 A. Those checkpoints I mentioned yesterday were not permanent

24 checkpoints. Normally we had checkpoints from BiH and HVO. We had

25 different permanent manned checkpoints, but sometimes we observed that

Page 7100

1 there were temporary checkpoints manned by Mujahedins. And when I say

2 "Mujahedins," it was normally soldiers in Arabic clothes.

3 Q. And again, sir, do you recall as to where you came across such

4 temporary checkpoints?

5 A. I can remember when we were taking the mountain road from the --

6 I can't remember the name of the road, but we could go to Zenica by two

7 roads, and the shortest one were from the -- on the road going from Novi

8 Travnik and Vitez to -- following the Lasva River. And there was a road

9 going north from that road to Zenica, and normally on that road where we

10 time to time saw that there was a checkpoint from -- manned by members of

11 the Mujahedins. And once we found one in another area; that was in

12 the -- as far as I remember, on one of the roads in the Guca Gora area.

13 But I cannot recall the exact position, but it was in those areas.

14 Q. Obviously areas within the 3rd Corps area of responsibility?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. Was the fact that Mujahedin manned temporary checkpoints, was it

17 a repeated occurrence throughout your time in the region?

18 A. As far as I can remember, it -- of course, I made these

19 observations in the period from -- in May and June.

20 Q. And did you make such observations repeatedly?

21 A. I think I made those observations two or three times.

22 Q. Whenever you came across such temporary checkpoints manned by

23 Mujahedin, were you allowed to pass such checkpoints?

24 A. Normally we were allowed to pass without any problems. I can

25 recall one time where we passed a checkpoint and after we have passed the

Page 7101

1 checkpoint, they opened fire against us, but only to -- it was not to

2 harm us, to kill us; just to show a show of force, I think.

3 Q. Whenever you were given the opportunity to pass such Mujahedin

4 checkpoints, was there any discussion with the Mujahedin manning such

5 checkpoints prior to you allowed to pass them?

6 A. I can remember once where the men at the checkpoint, they were

7 having a discussion with our interpreter, a young Muslim. I didn't

8 understand during the discussion what they were saying, but later on my

9 interpreter told me that the Mujahedins were not -- told him that he was

10 not a good Muslim. So they want to give him -- to teach him how to be a

11 good Muslim.

12 Q. Let's move to the next issue, Major, the detention facility in

13 Mehurici. Yesterday in answering a question by my learned friends from

14 the Hadzihasanovic Defence, you said: "The local ABiH commander told us

15 that the ABiH was protecting the detained civilians against the

16 Mujahedin."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was there any indication that the more than 200 detained

19 civilians in the sports hall of the Mehurici school were aware that they

20 were protected against Mujahedin, and did you get the impression that

21 they wanted to be protected against Mujahedin?

22 A. To be honest, I think it's a story he told us; that they were

23 only protecting them against the Mujahedins was just a story he was

24 telling. Because I said to him, "If you are protecting them, why are the

25 keys sitting on the opposite side of the door and not inside the hall?"

Page 7102












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Page 7103

1 And the people in the area, the detained persons, they were aware that

2 the Mujahedins were operating in that area, but they were not that

3 afraid, so they felt themselves that they need protection from BiH.

4 Q. Thank you, Major. Let's move on to the next issue. You informed

5 the Trial Chamber yesterday that in April 1993 you visited some Croat

6 villages in the area and you took Father Stipan with you. Why did you

7 take Father Stipan with you?

8 A. We took Father Stipan with us because he knew people in the area

9 and he was their priest, the highest-rank priest from that church. And

10 when we were doing our fact-finding, we would like to tell the Croats

11 about our findings. And to be sure that they understand that we were

12 telling the truth, we were bringing Father Stipan so he could assure the

13 Croats that what we were telling them was correct.

14 Q. Did you, Major, did you consider Father Stipan a reliable person?

15 Was the information he was providing you with correct?

16 A. When we were visiting Croat villages, Father Stipan had some

17 information of incidents that have taken place in those villages, and

18 sometimes we were able to confirm the incidents he told us about. And

19 normally we trusted, him, more or less because he was a man of the

20 church.

21 Q. Let's move on to the next issue.

22 MR. WITHOPF: And can I please ask the registrar to provide the

23 witness with a copy of DH167.

24 Q. Sir, I understand you have the bundle of documents in front of

25 you which were tendered into evidence yesterday by the Defence. If I may

Page 7104

1 draw your attention, please, Major, to the 16th of May, 1993 report which

2 is signed by Bent Faerge and yourself.

3 If I may draw your attention to number 6 in this report, which

4 reads as follows: "Mr. Merdan and Mr. Skopljak agreed this morning to

5 release all civilians who were kept in Kaonik and Zenica; furthermore, to

6 release all members of ABiH imprisoned in Busovaca and all members of HVO

7 imprisoned in Zenica after May 17th, 1993."

8 Major, do you have any knowledge as to whether the Zenica Music

9 School formed part of this agreement?

10 A. Actually, I cannot remember this agreement that are mentioned in

11 this. I cannot remember the connection why we were going to release

12 prisoners at this specific period, so maybe it has been some agreement in

13 a local cease-fire or something. But I cannot remember the -- this

14 episode.

15 MR. WITHOPF: Can the exhibit please be removed from the witness.

16 Q. Were the allegations, Major, that the ABiH kept detainees in the

17 Zenica Music School and that they were mistreated there, was this to your

18 knowledge ever raised with 3rd Corps; for example, with Mr. Merdan,

19 Mr. Hadzihasanovic, or somebody else?

20 A. I didn't have any knowledge about the music school as a detention

21 facility at that period. Later on, when I was chairing this joint

22 command humanitarian commission, where I had to visit the music school,

23 that was the first time I heard that it could have been a possibility for

24 detained persons.

25 Q. You yesterday informed the Trial Chamber that you were not given

Page 7105

1 access immediately to the music school but you had to first talk to

2 Mr. Merdan, the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps. Did you inform

3 Mr. Merdan as to the purpose of your visit to the music school, and did

4 you inform him about the allegations of detainees kept there and crimes

5 or mistreatment done in the Zenica Music School?

6 A. I'm sure that Mr. Merdan knew why we were going to see the music

7 school, because the members of the joint humanitarian commission, of

8 course, have their consultations with their headquarters. So the two

9 headquarters knew about what we were going to do.

10 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am looking at the

11 transcript on page 8. My learned friend's question, line 3 and 4. The

12 question put to the witness by my learned friend was whether he gave any

13 information to Mr. Merdan regarding detainees who were allegedly detained

14 in the music school or crimes allegedly having been committed there. I

15 do not have the wording of what the witness said yesterday. I believe

16 that he said that he said that he did visit the music school as the

17 president of the humanitarian commission. He never mentioned any

18 charges, any allegations. That was not part of the framework of his

19 visit. He paid a visit to all the detention centres in the region, and

20 this was not part of his mission.

21 I would like this answer to be redacted.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, yesterday the

23 witness explained that within the framework of his tasks and duties he

24 visited the music school in Zenica. The Defence says that the question

25 you have put now indicates that there may have been other elements in a

Page 7106

1 routine visit, or in other words, that there might have been some

2 allegations according to which crimes were allegedly committed against

3 the detainees and that the witness spoke about that with Mr. Merdan. Can

4 you please rephrase your question to -- so as to make it clear. Did the

5 witness go there knowing that somebody -- something had already happened,

6 or did he become aware of things only subsequently? There seems to be a

7 confusion here. I give you the floor again.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

9 Q. Major, you heard the question asked by the Presiding Judge. Can

10 you please answer it.

11 A. When we were visiting the music school in Zenica, it was just

12 because we have heard that there should be detained persons there. I

13 haven't had any informations on what there have been -- if it has been

14 used as a detention facility earlier than my visit, but we had heard

15 rumours that it should be a detention facility. That's why we were

16 visiting the music school.

17 Q. Let's move on to the last issue, Major, I wish to briefly cover

18 with you today. Asked by my learned friends from the Kubura Defence, you

19 yesterday informed the Trial Chamber that whilst you were visiting the

20 Zenica Music School you did not hear anybody speaking Arabic in the music

21 school. Whilst you've been in the music school, did you have an

22 opportunity to talk to all soldiers in the Zenica Music School, including

23 the ones who wore clothes of the style foreign Mujahedin usually were

24 wearing in Central Bosnia?

25 A. The only persons we had -- we spoke with were the two, maybe

Page 7107

1 three persons that showed us around, and that was interpreted from the

2 Bosnian language.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Major.

4 MR. WITHOPF: I have no further questions. Thank you,

5 Mr. President, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Just

7 exceptionally, are there any questions by the Defence? The Chamber will

8 allow you in this case to put additional questions.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we do not have any

10 additional questions for the witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. It will be

12 the Judges who will put questions to you.

13 Judge Swart is going to ask you questions.

14 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, there'll be no questions on behalf of

15 Mr. Kubura. Thank you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE SWART: Just a few questions, Witness, on what you said

18 yesterday. First on the Zenica Music School. You told us a story that

19 you were not permitted to enter the signals room. Do you remember on

20 what floor the signals room was?

21 A. No. I can just remember that there was one room we didn't have

22 access to, but I cannot remember where it was situated.

23 JUDGE SWART: The second thing you said is that, if I recall this

24 correctly, that you had information on there being a basement. And my

25 question is: Did you have that information before you went to the

Page 7108












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Page 7109

1 school, or did that come afterwards?

2 A. When you are looking at the school, you're able to see the

3 basement, I think. I can't remember it correctly, but I'm sure that we

4 have been seeing the basement, because if we didn't see the basement, it

5 would have been very suspicious to us that if we would not have been

6 allowed to see the basement. As I said earlier, I can recall that we was

7 not allowed to see the room they claimed to be a signal room. If they

8 have denied us access to a basement, I'm sure that I could remember that.

9 JUDGE SWART: Nevertheless, you mentioned this detail on your own

10 initiative. You came to it wholly by yourself. So this must have some

11 meaning to you, some importance.

12 A. About the basement? No, just because yesterday I was showed a

13 picture by the Prosecutor showing the basement, but I could not recall

14 the picture of the basement. But I'm sure that I have -- when you are in

15 a building, you can see there's a stair going down, and I would have been

16 suspicious if I was not allowed to go downstairs.

17 JUDGE SWART: But you didn't ask for it.

18 A. About the basement?


20 A. No. Because we were showed around in -- in the whole building.

21 JUDGE SWART: Yes. So to summarise, you were aware that there

22 was a basement, but you thought to yourself That is not a place that

23 could be interesting for us.

24 A. I'm sure I have been in this building and the only room I didn't

25 see in the building was a room they claimed to be the signal room. And

Page 7110

1 the signal room was not in the basement, and I'm sure that if we have

2 been denied access to go downstairs, using the staircase downstairs, I

3 would have been suspicious to see why were we not allowed to go down

4 there.

5 JUDGE SWART: But I understand this was your own choice, not to

6 go down.

7 A. Well, I said that I have been in the whole building except one

8 room, but I cannot specifically remember the basement. I cannot

9 specifically remember the other floors. But I have been on all the

10 floors except one room. But I cannot recall the picture of the basement.

11 And if the Prosecutor has showed me pictures of other rooms in the music

12 school, I would not be able to remember those rooms, because things

13 happened 11 years ago and it's very difficult to remember all rooms in

14 that building.

15 JUDGE SWART: When you talked about the signals room, you also

16 told, if I am remembering this well, that you saw cables coming out of

17 that room. Isn't that correct?

18 A. That's correct. And that's why we made -- or I made this

19 conclusion that they were telling that it was correct there was a signal

20 room in there, because it seemed to be cables for signal equipment.

21 JUDGE SWART: Okay. The second questions or the second sort of

22 questions I have is on your visit to Mehurici. You told us yesterday

23 about visiting the school there, the gymnasium, talking with the local

24 commander, and being informed about the reasons of the civilians being

25 there. You also told us about an incident before or afterwards or during

Page 7111

1 your visit in which you and BritBat were threatened by Mujahedin, and

2 they pointed their arms on you and you said this was a rather tense

3 moment or even more. And this was a confrontation, you said, with the

4 Mujahedin.

5 The Defence has given us a number of texts yesterday, and it was

6 shown to you this morning in a different context. But in these texts

7 there is also a summary, a monitoring -- a monitor team report on your

8 visit to Mehurici, and it's basically the same as what you told us

9 yesterday. But there is one detail I would like to ask you something

10 about. In talking about Mujahedin in this report, you talk about the

11 MOS.

12 A. Yes, sir. The MOS, that was -- when we were using "MOS," I can't

13 remember the mean of "MOS" but it was a word used for the Mujahedins,

14 Muslim extremists. I cannot remember why it was called MOS, but MOS is

15 the same as Muslim extremists or Mujahedins.

16 JUDGE SWART: So you're not quite sure what it stands for,

17 this --

18 A. I cannot remember -- I cannot remember what "MOS" stands for.

19 JUDGE SWART: Nevertheless, you used the expression in your

20 report.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE SWART: And what do you think MOS is ?

23 A. At that time, we were using two expressions: We were using

24 "MOS", that was Muslim extremists, like Mujahedins; And on the opposite

25 side, with the HVO, we were using HOS, H-O-S, for Croatian extremists.

Page 7112

1 But I cannot remember what the M-O-S stands for. As well, I cannot

2 remember what the H-O-S stands for.

3 JUDGE SWART: Who used this expression? How did you become aware

4 of this expression?

5 A. We'd used often in our reports. UNPROFOR used the same

6 expressions in their reports as well.

7 JUDGE SWART: But you didn't seem to -- you don't seem to have

8 any information about the nature of this group or organisation or

9 whatever.

10 A. No. But using the expression MOS is the same as using the

11 expression "Mujahedins."

12 JUDGE SWART: So it's interchangeable for you, the two

13 expressions.

14 A. Yeah. Sometimes we used "MOS" because it's much easier to type.


16 A. But it's the same.

17 JUDGE SWART: Who spoke to you about MOS? Is that the people

18 themselves, the Mujahedin, as you said before?

19 A. Who --

20 JUDGE SWART: Have you heard people using the word "MOS" or the

21 acronym "MOS" in referring to themselves?

22 A. No. It was an acronym used by us.

23 JUDGE SWART: Used by you.

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE SWART: So the last questions I would have to put -- would

Page 7113

1 like to put on this question is: In this meeting with the Mujahedin, did

2 you have observe any uniforms or Arabic clothes, or could you give a

3 description of their clothes and their appearance.

4 A. As I can recall, this group was in Arabic clothes.

5 JUDGE SWART: Arabic clothes.

6 A. Maybe there have been a mix of uniforms and Arabic clothes, but

7 it was --

8 JUDGE SWART: Yeah. You don't recall this quite clearly.

9 A. Not quite clearly after all these years, but I can remember that

10 it was a group of Mujahedins and that the local BiH commander had serious

11 problems to get them away from that.

12 JUDGE SWART: My final question: Did you observe any badges or

13 insignia on their clothes?

14 A. No.


16 A. I didn't.

17 JUDGE SWART: Okay. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Major, you said in response to

19 a question put to you by the Prosecution that you assumed your duties in

20 March, June as part of this European mission. You said that you were a

21 captain in the Danish Army at the time and that you were involved in

22 intelligence. When you were sent to Bosnia and Herzegovina, what were

23 the criteria used when you were recruited? It was as an intelligence

24 officer? Was it in that capacity that you were recruited? Why were you

25 selected?

Page 7114












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Page 7115

1 A. I was not selected for that mission. At that time, the Danish

2 Army asked for officers who volunteered, wanted to go to Bosnia or to the

3 Balkans. And when I was sent to the Balkans, I didn't know that I had

4 to go to Bosnia. I learned that the first day when we arrived to the

5 ECMM headquarters in Zagreb. In Zagreb -- the headquarters in Zagreb

6 decided where the new monitors had to be deployed. Then after a few

7 days, I was deployed to Zenica.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that in

9 Zenica you were in a structure -- you were part of a structure that

10 included Mr. Thebault, there was a Spaniard, there was a German, and you

11 also said that there were Canadian monitors. The Canadian monitor whose

12 name you have provided, Remi Landry, was he part of the mission or was he

13 a monitor within some other body?

14 A. Remi Landry was a member of the ECMM and he was a monitor as

15 well.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But this was a

17 European mission; it wasn't a Canadian one. How do you explain this

18 contradiction?

19 A. When the European Community Monitoring Mission was established,

20 members of the OCE countries were invited to participate. Therefore,

21 countries like Canada, Sweden, Poland, Czechoslovakia participated in the

22 mission, sending monitors to that area.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The text that the

24 Defence provides us with, it was signed in Sarajevo on the 1st of

25 October, 1991 and it concerned this mission. This text states that the

Page 7116

1 mission was a European one; it was functioning under the European flag.

2 Nevertheless, there were other countries that were included in the

3 mission, other non-European countries. That is what you are telling us.

4 It mentions the flag in Article 5 and further on. There's a lengthy text

5 about this. So there were non-European countries included in the

6 mission; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As far as the

9 so-called Totic case is concerned, you said that you were situated in the

10 Hotel Internacional, which is where your mission had its headquarters.

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the day that two Mujahedin

13 representatives arrived at the Hotel Internacional, were you present?

14 A. I was at the hotel that day. That's correct.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you see them? Did you

16 personally see them?

17 A. I cannot recall if I saw them when they arrived or I have heard

18 about it, because it's 11 years ago; it's very difficult to remember all

19 the details. But I can remember that I have seen the Mujahedins at the

20 hotel, but I cannot recall if I saw them the very first day.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when they were in the

22 hotel, were they armed or did they not have any weapons?

23 A. Normally they were armed when they arrived, and that's why we had

24 a police guard, a BiH police guard in front of the hotel, so people who

25 were going to visit us were disarmed. But every time the Mujahedins

Page 7117

1 arrived to our hotel, this guard disappeared. But we told the Mujahedins

2 that we didn't want them to have arms when they were visiting us.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that the Hotel

4 Internacional was protected by the BiH, given that there were guards who

5 maintained public order in front of the hotel, and on that day, when the

6 two armed Mujahedin entered the hotel, the guards disappeared.

7 A. As far as I can remember, it was the civilian police who was

8 guarding the front, but there was only one police officer at the spot.

9 But it's correct; normally when the Mujahedins came, those policemen

10 were -- we saw they were afraid of the Mujahedins. That was the reason

11 for them to run away.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the hotel was under the

13 protection of the civilian police, not the military police. You can

14 make the distinction between the civilian and military police, can't you?

15 A. Well, they were wearing different uniforms, but -- and I can't

16 recall who had the responsibility to our security, if it was the civilian

17 police or the military police. I can remember we had this guard.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the light of your answers,

19 it appears that when this exchange took place you were personally in

20 Travnik and it was your duty to take charge of the four Croatian officers

21 who had been kidnapped. Can you confirm that you were in Travnik in

22 order to take charge of these four Croatian officers?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. I was in Travnik, and I received the four

24 HVO officers and I bring them with the armed escort from the British

25 Battalion to General Blaskic's headquarters.

Page 7118

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who handed them over to you?

2 A. Members from the Mujahedins, Arabic-speaking members from the

3 Mujahedin.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And they handed them over to

5 you?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as you are an intelligence

8 officer, you were certainly able to observe certain details in such a

9 situation. That must have been the first time that you had to confront

10 such a situation, because one isn't present when a prisoner exchange

11 takes place every day. When the prisoners arrived, they were escorted by

12 Mujahedin. Were these Mujahedin armed?

13 A. Yes, they were armed, and they were arriving in an old civilian

14 truck. And I can recall that the Mujahedin that was waiting at the spot

15 together with me, he was armed as well and he was Arabic-speaking,

16 because when he was communicating with the rest of the Mujahedins, they

17 were using our means of communications and they were using the Arabic

18 language when they were communicating.

19 This Mujahedin was able to speak German, so I had the

20 possibility to make some -- a few short conversations with him. I was

21 able -- normally during, -- or while we were waiting, his face was

22 covered by his Balaclava, and I would like to see if he was Bosnian or he

23 was Arabic. So I started to -- I offered him something to eat and I

24 offered him cigarettes, and after a few hours he took off his Balaclava

25 and took something to eat and some cigarettes. And then I was able to

Page 7119

1 see that he was Arabic. And he spoke only Arabic and German.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you didn't ask him which

3 country he was from?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because you said that you spoke

6 to him for several hours. So you had the time to talk about various

7 things. It didn't occur to you to ask him where he was from?

8 A. Of course it did, Your Honour, but it was -- as an impartial

9 monitor, as we were, very often we were accused from both parts to spy,

10 so we had to be very carefully when we were together with people not to

11 give them the impression that we were spies, because we were not. We

12 were gathering informations, and we knew that those Mujahedins were from

13 foreign countries. We knew that because when we saw the list of the

14 detained Mujahedins, we could see from which country they were from and

15 it was typical from countries from the Middle East and so it was not

16 necessary to ask what specific country they were from. We knew that they

17 were from the Arabic countries.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the Croatian officers were

19 handed over to you -- when you handed them over, did you discuss the

20 matter with the Croatian officers? Did you discuss the conditions under

21 which they had been kidnapped? Did you interrogate them about what had

22 happened to them and about who had arrested them, about where they had

23 been detained, about whether they had been mistreated? In other words,

24 did you ask them the usual type of questions that one asks under such

25 circumstances?

Page 7120

1 A. Our task was not to do that. Our task was just to receive them

2 and immediately bring them to the headquarters. But I'm sure that they

3 afterwards have been interviewed by their own headquarters, but I don't

4 have the result of that interview.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't receive any

6 instructions at your level in order to obtain information about what had

7 happened to them.

8 A. That's correct. My orders were immediately to -- after the

9 release, to bring them to the HVO headquarters in Vitez.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question is as follows:

11 You said that it was necessary to be impartial when performing your

12 duties and at one point in time you and the Brother Stipan went to see

13 each other. Why didn't you have an Imam come with you? Why did you only

14 take a member of the clergy, whereas you were in the situation where

15 there were people of various religions? Yet you said that it was

16 necessary for you to be impartial. What can you tell us about this?

17 A. When we were using Father Stipan, it has nothing to be -- to do

18 with our wish to be impartial. We used Father Stipan because we want the

19 Croat inhabitants to believe us. We thought it would be easier for them

20 if we were using Father Stipan, because they trusted him.

21 Normally we didn't have the same problem when we were going to

22 visit the Muslim inhabitants. The Muslim inhabitants, they trusted us

23 and they trusted the representative from BiH we normally had with us when

24 we were visiting Muslim villages. So there was a little difference

25 between the communications between us and the Croats, and us and the

Page 7121

1 Muslim inhabitants. Normally when we were discussing with the Muslim

2 inhabitants and telling about our fact-findings, normally we had -- if it

3 was during a time in the Busovaca Joint Commission or in a later

4 commission, they believed what we said, they believed what the members of

5 our commission, the members from the BiH were telling them. On the

6 opposite side, they didn't always -- the Croats didn't always believe

7 what the Croat members of our commissions were telling them.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that the

9 Muslims had more confidence in you than the Croats, as a general rule.

10 A. That's correct.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges have no more

12 questions for you. Does the Prosecution have any additional questions

13 for the witness, in the light of the answers that the witness has

14 provided to the Judges' questions?

15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I have no

16 further questions.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does Defence counsel have any

18 additional questions?

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

20 a couple of questions I would like to ask the witness in order to assist

21 The Chamber to understand the witness's testimony.

22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Good morning. Can you

24 confirm that all the ECMM monitors were all dressed in white, that people

25 actually at times were laughing because you were all dressed in white?

Page 7122

1 A. I don't know if they were laughing, but it's correct we were

2 dressed in white. And it's not the best colour to wear during a war, but

3 it's -- we were dressed in white to show all in the theatre that we were

4 on an unarmed mission, so there could be no confusion that if we were a

5 military unit or not. So that's the reason for us to dress totally in

6 white.

7 Q. Thank you, Major. You beat me to my question, which was the fact

8 that you were not armed. Now, can you also confirm that when you visited

9 sites, if you needed to be escorted it would normally be done by BritBat

10 under the UNPROFOR mission with their Warriors?

11 A. It's correct, because it was a very difficult period. We had

12 very difficult working conditions, because very often snipers were

13 shooting at us or other units were shooting at us that were units from

14 HVO and units from BiH and from the Mujahedins. So we were provided with

15 armoured escort from UNPROFOR. Normally in the Lasva area we had escort

16 from BritBat; and in the Visoko-Kakanj area, we had escort from the

17 Canadian Battalion.

18 Q. And, Major, one question concerning during the exchange. You

19 mentioned communications amongst the Mujahedin. You are able to confirm

20 that they used at every post the communications equipment that the ECMM

21 monitors had?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And that they spoke Arabic all the time?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. And I have one last question concerning your visit with Father

Page 7123

1 Stipan. You mentioned in answer to the Presiding Judge that you wanted

2 Father Stipan to accompany you so that the Croats would believe you. Can

3 you confirm that when you say they wanted -- you wanted the Croats to

4 believe you, in terms that what the rumours they had heard about, about

5 all the destruction and the burning and the killing were not true, is

6 that what you wanted the Croats to believe?

7 A. That's correct, and that's the reason for us to bring Father

8 Stipan.

9 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Major.

10 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wouldn't want to forget

12 Mr. Dixon this time.

13 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further questions

14 for the witness. I am grateful.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Major, this concludes your

16 testimony in The Hague. Thank you for having contributed to determining

17 the truth. We wish you a good trip home, and we wish you all the best in

18 your career in the Danish Army.

19 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think Ms. Benjamin will be

23 conducting the examination-in-chief. Is the witness available now,

24 Ms. Benjamin?

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I believe so, Mr. President. He was

Page 7124

1 supposed to be here from 9.00, so I believe he should be outside. If the

2 usher can kindly ...

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll wait for the

4 usher to return.

5 While waiting for the witness to arrive, Ms. Benjamin, could you

6 inform me of the amount of time you will need for your

7 examination-in-chief.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I do not anticipate that

9 we'll take more than an hour.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If you need one

11 hour, the Defence will have an hour and a half, so we could conclude the

12 hearing of this witness today.

13 Madam Usher, could we have the new witness.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. I would first

16 like to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what I am

17 saying. If that's the case, please say so.

18 THE WITNESS: It's okay.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's okay.

20 You've been called here as a witness for the Prosecution. You

21 have to take the solemn declaration before testifying. In order to do

22 so, you need to tell us your first and last names.

23 THE WITNESS: I am Rudy Gerritsen.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

25 THE WITNESS: The 9th of May, 1954.

Page 7125

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where were you born and in

2 which country?

3 THE WITNESS: I was born in the Netherlands, in a place called

4 Meppel.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your nationality?


7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your position? What is

8 the rank that you currently hold?

9 THE WITNESS: I'm a lieutenant colonel in the Dutch Army. I'm

10 working now in the army staff as policy advisor.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, over ten years ago,

12 what position did you hold in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 THE WITNESS: I was an ECMM monitor in the rank of major of the

14 Dutch Army.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

16 before an international or national court with regard to what happened in

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 THE WITNESS: I testified already once.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where was that? Before

20 this Tribunal?


22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which case did you testify in?

23 THE WITNESS: That's a good question.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which is usually the case, when

25 Judges ask questions.

Page 7126

1 It doesn't matter.

2 As you are used to giving testimony, you know that it is

3 necessary to read out the solemn declaration. Could you please read the

4 text of the solemn declaration out.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.


9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

10 Prosecution, I would like to give you some guidelines with regard to your

11 testimony.

12 As you already know, you have been called by the Prosecution.

13 First you will be answering questions put to you by Mrs. Benjamin, the

14 representative of the Prosecution, on your right-hand side.

15 After these questions, which shouldn't take more than an hour,

16 the two Defence counsel, on the left-hand side, are also going to ask you

17 questions within the scope of their cross-examination. The

18 cross-examination is carried out in order to check the credibility of

19 your answers given within the scope of the examination-in-chief. Also,

20 the cross-examination serves to support the Defence case.

21 In addition to that, the three Judges in front of you may at any

22 moment put questions to you, either to clarify things or to fill the gaps

23 in your answers.

24 It is a customary procedure that the Trial Chamber puts questions

25 to the witness at the very end of the testimony; however, it may happen

Page 7127

1 that they put questions to you even before that, should a need arise for

2 that.

3 I also have to remind you of the following two things: You have

4 taken the solemn declaration, which means that you shouldn't give a false

5 testimony, because that may be punished. When the witnesses answer

6 questions, they may refuse to answer a question should such an answer

7 incriminate them. In such a case, which is exceptional, the Trial

8 Chamber may compel the witness to answer the question; however, the Trial

9 Chamber will give such a witness some sort of immunity.

10 Since the evidence before this Trial Chamber is oral, we kindly

11 ask you to be as precise and as complete in your answers as possible,

12 because the Trial Chamber does not have any written documents to rely on.

13 The only reliable thing for us is what you're going to say today. And

14 this is how we intend to arrive at the truth.

15 And this is in general terms how your testimony is going to be

16 heard. We have another 15 minutes before the break; therefore, I would

17 like to give the floor to Mrs. Benjamin for her examination-in-chief.

18 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

20 Q. Good morning, Lieutenant Colonel. Could you briefly state for

21 the Trial Chamber your training before you became a lieutenant colonel.

22 A. Well, training takes a long time in the army. It starts, the

23 training, in 1972, when I went into the army as an 18 years old soldier.

24 Training has several levels: Just a military training we had to study

25 several years. And one of the things we studied was in the Conventions

Page 7128

1 of Geneva, for instance. I studied most of the times in economics and

2 logistics and military -- typical military studies.

3 Q. Thank you. And after your training, did you yourself do lectures

4 on the Geneva Conventions to other troops?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, you were -- there came a time in 1993 when you

7 were deployed to Bosnia; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. I came in Bosnia at the -- I think the 15th of July.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

10 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It is

11 with reluctance that I interrupt my learned friend at the beginning of

12 the examination-in-chief. We can see that the witness has some papers in

13 front of him. We don't know what those are. Are they some notes or

14 documents? We would like to know what those are.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, you have

16 some papers in front of you. What are those? Are they notes? What is

17 it? The testimony is oral. We are not allowed to rely on any written

18 documents. What is it that you have in front of you?

19 THE WITNESS: First I have here some notes which -- I have

20 written tomorrow [sic] to explain some things of my own, of myself, and

21 how the work was done by the ECMM. And this is a document in which is a

22 brief shortage Of my daily reports in Bosnia. And this book are the

23 notes which I made in Bosnia. I had such books with me at that time,

24 field pockets, put in your -- how do you call that -- a suit. And here

25 are also some dates and notes in it for my own. But I can do this

Page 7129

1 without.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. This is what

3 we are going to do: For the time being, can you put these documents

4 aside. Answer the questions without the documents. Should it happen

5 that while answering a question you believe that your answer may be more

6 precise if you refer to your notes, please tell us so. Just say that you

7 don't remember something. But I somehow don't believe that this will

8 happen. You are a young man. I don't think you will have any problems

9 with your memory. But if there is something you don't remember and if

10 you want to refer to your notes, just tell us so and we will deal with

11 that case by case.

12 Thank you, Mr. Bourgon. Thank you for drawing our attention to

13 that. You see things very clearly and help us, because sometimes from

14 where we sit we can't see those things. Thank you.

15 And Mrs. Benjamin, you have the floor.

16 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you to

17 my colleague. I wasn't aware that the witness had his documents with

18 him. Thanks.

19 Q. As we stated before the interruption, there came a time when you

20 were deployed to Bosnia. And could you tell us with whom were you

21 deployed there.

22 A. After central briefing in Zenica, I went to Gornji Vakuf, and I

23 was deployed there with a colleague monitor called Skat-Rordam. And the

24 other monitor in Gornji Vakuf was on vacation and his name was -- it was

25 a Canadian. I don't remember his name now.

Page 7130

1 Q. Colonel --

2 A. Hauenstein -- Peter Hauenstein. And that were the two colleagues

3 at that time.

4 Q. Okay. We would understand if you can't remember the name,

5 because it's quite a long time. But what I'm asking you is which

6 organisation were you with when you were deployed to Bosnia.

7 A. I was a member of the European Monitor Mission. So I was from

8 the European Community and I was dressed in white linen and not armed.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, could you for the Trial Chamber state the role

10 of the ECMM in Bosnia at that time.

11 A. The main role was that we were impartial.

12 Q. And could you state for us your duties as an ECMM monitor,

13 please.

14 A. Oh, yes, I had to monitor -- to gather information on

15 humanitarian matters, military matters, economic and political matters by

16 driving around and talking to the authorities and the civilian people and

17 over -- all the people who we met when we were going around in our area

18 of responsibility, which was for me at that time Gornji Vakuf, Prozor,

19 and Bugojno.

20 Q. Could you tell us or describe for the Trial Chamber how the teams

21 were organised and how the missions were conducted.

22 A. Yes. We were -- the head of the mission for Bosnia was in

23 Zenica, who had several teams deployed all over Bosnia. Some places were

24 rather -- our area of responsibilities were rather big and had several

25 teams. In the place we were, Gornji Vakuf, it was only one team, Victor

Page 7131

1 2. That was -- that consisted of two monitors, one driver, and one

2 interpreter. We were located at that time at BritBat in Gornji Vakuf.

3 There was a company of British Battalion over there. The company

4 commander from the British Battalion was Graham Binns. We were located

5 there for safety reasons.

6 Most of the teams were living in hotels, but at that time in

7 Gornji Vakuf it wasn't possible. Each day we were driving to the several

8 places in our area of responsibility. Most of the days we visited -- we

9 started at Gornji Vakuf itself, and then we went to Prozor or Bugojno,

10 and when we were first in Prozor, we went after that to Bugojno and

11 sometimes we were all day in Bugojno or Prozor. And it depends on the

12 situation. It was depending on the moment, the situation. Yeah.

13 Q. So would you say that Bugojno and Prozor were basically your

14 areas of responsibility?

15 A. Yes. In the centre of Gornji Vakuf, and Prozor on the other hand

16 and Bugojno in the north. North east.

17 Q. And would be the submission -- would the writing of reports and

18 submission of reports one of your daily tasks?

19 A. Oh, yes, yes. On these issues, I already stated we have to write

20 every day daily reports, and we sent the daily report to the -- to

21 Zenica. From there it went to Zagreb, and from there the comprehension

22 went to the European Committee and to the main capitals of several

23 countries of the European Committee.

24 Q. Now, Colonel, could you tell us the exact date that you got to

25 Bugojno -- to Bosnia.

Page 7132

1 A. I went to Gornji Vakuf at the 18th of July, and to Bosnia I think

2 it was 15th.

3 Q. And on the 18th of July, when you arrived, could you tell us

4 exactly what you saw.

5 A. On the 18th of July, I drove from Zenica to Gornji Vakuf. I went

6 to BritBat. I arrived there at approximately, I think, 12.00 or -- yeah,

7 approximately I think 12.00. And it was a quite nice day at the 18th of

8 July, and that afternoon I played volleyball with BritBat. That was in

9 the evening. I heard from the British company commander that fightings

10 were going on at Bugojno and that we will visit Bugojno the next morning.

11 Q. On the 19th of July, you would have made your first visit to

12 Bugojno.

13 A. Yes. I arrived -- I went to Bugojno, and while we were driving

14 to Bugojno, we saw that fightings were going on between the Muslims and

15 the Croats. And in the beginning, the fightings were concentrating on

16 Bugojno itself.

17 Q. And did you observe anything in -- in the area of Bugojno, with

18 respect to the houses and civilians?

19 A. Yes. There was a war going on, so there were houses burning and

20 fightings were going on; and there was shelling; all the things that

21 happens in a fight. And wounded people and dead people and so on.

22 Q. If you had to describe the firing that went on in one word, how

23 would you describe it?

24 A. Serious fightings -- in one word? It's difficult. But it was

25 just a war.

Page 7133

1 Q. Now, on your visit to Bugojno on the 19th, did you get the

2 opportunity to speak with anyone, including civilians?

3 A. Yes. At that day, we went to the HQ from BiH, also to the HQ of

4 the Croats. We spoke there to -- we had spoken to, for instance, the

5 BiH, Abdulah Jelic that day. And I'm not sure, but I think Selmo Cikotic

6 as well and a number of the people at the HQ of the Croats. And I also

7 met there the priest from the Croats who was in the HQ in -- from the

8 Croats in Bugojno.

9 Q. Do you recall the priest's name?

10 A. That was Father Janko.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, you spoke to members of the ABiH.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you be able to assist the Trial Chamber who in your opinion

14 was in command.

15 A. In my opinion, in command was Selmo Cikotic. Also, I met most of

16 the time Abdulah Jelic.

17 Q. And are you able to assist us with which unit of the BiH was in

18 Bugojno at the time?

19 A. No. I can't remember the number and the name. No.

20 Q. The Hotel Kalin --

21 A. The Kalin Hotel, yes --

22 Q. -- was that a focal point for you?

23 A. Yes. In the beginning --

24 Q. And could you tell us why.

25 A. Yes. The Muslims were on the winning hand in the fightings in

Page 7134

1 Bugojno. And in the beginning of the fight, we were concentrating on

2 military and humanitarian matters. We were evacuating wounded people

3 from Kalin Hotel to better places. So -- and in the basement of that

4 hotel there was a hospital and there were lying there several wounded

5 Croats and Muslims. And we succeeded to evacuate them at a certain time.

6 I don't remember exactly the date.

7 After that -- and there was still a stronghold from the Croats in

8 the top of that building, of Kalin Hotel, and they surrendered at the end

9 of the fightings, almost at the end of the fightings in Bugojno, 25th,

10 26th, 27th or something of July. After that, we concentrate more not on

11 the military issues but more on the POWs and POW cases and humanitarian

12 matters and political matters.

13 Q. From your investigations carried out and the reports received, in

14 your opinion, who at the time was the attacking army?

15 A. Muslims, the BiH. Yeah.

16 Q. I'd like to take your -- I'd like to ask you now that very soon

17 after the 19th you would have started your meetings; am I correct?

18 A. Oh, yes. We had every day meetings. We always started somewhere

19 to try to speak to somebody. So we always were trying to speak to

20 military commanders. And if they weren't there, we went to the priest or

21 to the Imam or to the civilian authorities. And we always tried to speak

22 to somebody and have meetings.

23 Q. And that would be no exception for the 23rd of July. You would

24 have had a meeting.

25 A. No, I don't think so. Because that was our task, to talk to

Page 7135

1 people, to gather information. And the 23rd of July, what ...?

2 Q. You indicated to us a while ago that you had daily meetings.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I suppose the same would have been for the 23rd of July.

5 A. Oh, yes. Yes.

6 Q. That was the day.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And my question to you is: Could you tell us what transpired on

9 the 23rd of July as a result of the meeting that was held?

10 A. What kind of meeting was held on the 23rd of July? May I look in

11 my notes?

12 Q. Does the 23rd of July -- do you -- well, maybe I shouldn't ask

13 you that.

14 Is there anything particular about Bugojno on your initial

15 arrival? Did you visit any sites?

16 A. Oh, yes. I visited the HQs, Kalin Hotel. I visited the POW

17 cages. Maybe that was the case on the 23rd of July, but I'm not sure of

18 the dates.

19 Q. Okay. So could you tell us, then, if you -- if you can't even

20 remember the date, could you start with the first one that you visited

21 and what you have seen.

22 A. The POW cage?

23 Q. Yes, please.

24 A. Oh, okay. I visited at the end four POW cages, but in the

25 beginning I visited two of them. It was at the high school and at the

Page 7136

1 furniture salon. And there were imprisoned the POWs who I first saw when

2 we -- from that battalion, Croat battalion. And that battalion commander

3 I first saw at -- when I visited a number of dead bodies.

4 Q. Maybe, Colonel, we could start by talking about the furniture

5 salon first so that we can identify them separately. Let's start with

6 the salon first.

7 A. Okay. Well, at the furniture salon was -- at the place -- when I

8 was in front of the hospital and it was on the left side, somewhere. And

9 in the basement, that was in a dark place with POWs in it. When we were

10 in such a place, there was water around and the people weren't -- we

11 couldn't see very well, you know, because it was dark, and there were

12 always, of course, guards around us, so it was difficult to speak freely

13 to the POWs. But we gathered always -- we tried to gather names and

14 wrote them down and handed these names over to the authorities, ICRC, my

15 own authority from ECMM, and we handed them also over. And what we found

16 to the local authorities, for instance, Senad Dautovic, Abdulah Jelic,

17 Selmo Cikotic; and we talked about our experiences with the priests.

18 Q. Colonel, may I interrupt you now.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You can describe for us the conditions at the furniture salon.

21 And in describing it you mentioned that there were guards. Would you be

22 able to assist us with the ethnic background of the guards?

23 A. Well, the ethnic backgrounds of the guards were, of course, from

24 the BiH, from the Muslims, from the -- sometimes that -- I can't remember

25 from the civil police or from the military police. I think in the

Page 7137

1 beginning it was from the civil police, but I'm not sure. Senad

2 Dautovic, the chief of the POW cages, was from the civil police, but the

3 guards, I am not sure of.

4 When we saw on several occasions the POWs, it was obvious for us

5 that they were treated badly. It was not accordance to the Geneva

6 Conventions. They were beaten and they were frightened. That was clear

7 for us, that they were frightened, but they couldn't speak freely, so we

8 couldn't -- and there was blood, there were bandages and so on. They

9 were lying just on the floor or on -- how do you call these -- where you

10 step along goods, pallets. Yes, pallets. They were sometimes lying on

11 the surface, and there they slept on.

12 Q. And did you raise these concerns with anyone in particular?

13 A. Oh, yes. We raised these concerns with Senad Dautovic and with

14 Abdulah Jelic and when we met Selmo.

15 Q. And Mr. Dautovic and Mr. Jelic, were they members of a particular

16 army?

17 A. Jelic was from the BiH, as well as Selmo; and Senad Dautovic was

18 from the civil police.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. From Bugojno.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I was wondering if this may

23 be a good time for us to take our break.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Colonel, just like in the

25 army we have to have some breaks for technical reasons. We shall resume

Page 7138

1 at five to 11.00. Thank you.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume.

5 Ms. Benjamin.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Colonel, for clarification's sake, you have referred to the

8 military body BiH. When you say "the BiH," whom do you mean or which

9 body do you mean? Is it the ABiH?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you.

12 Before the interruption, we were at the site of the furniture

13 salon, and you had indicated to the Court the conditions that you had

14 observed at the salon, and you were just about telling us of the meetings

15 that you held with the different parties raising your concerns.

16 Now, could you tell me what were the results of your meetings,

17 with respect to the furniture salon?

18 A. We were always promised that the circumstances would be better

19 and that they would investigate the circumstances. Well, that's mainly

20 it.

21 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many detainees were held at

22 the furniture salon?

23 A. 60, 80. I do not know.

24 Q. And would you be able to give us the ethnic background of these

25 detainees.

Page 7139

1 A. These were Croats.

2 Q. And --

3 A. Civilians and military people.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you.

5 Would you say, Colonel, that this particular site, the furniture

6 salon, would you say that that site was a suitable site for detaining

7 prisoners?

8 A. No, it wasn't. No.

9 Q. And could you explain to us why you came to that conclusion.

10 A. Well, I think all POWs should be in a normal prison and not in a

11 salon with water in it and dark, and not enough toilets and so on.

12 Q. Did you --

13 A. And not -- there were not enough sleeping -- there were not --

14 there were no beds at all.

15 Q. In your opinion - and I think you stated that for the Court

16 previously - you thought that the Muslims had the upper hand at that

17 time.

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did there come a time then when the HVO surrendered?

20 A. Yes. They surrendered and they left Bugojno, and from the Croats

21 a minority of civilians stayed behind in Bugojno itself. And it was at

22 the end of July that HVO withdraw from Bugojno.

23 Q. Now, aside from the furniture salon, did you visit any other

24 prison in Bugojno?

25 A. Yes. I visited the high school, and I visited another school, an

Page 7140

1 elementary school, I think.

2 Q. Could we first start with the Bugojno high school.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please describe what you saw on your visit.

5 A. The high school was to the right from the hospital, more to the

6 old centre of the town. The prisoners, the POWs, were also in a cellar

7 and also in the classrooms from that high school building. And the high

8 school was more or less more suitable for POWs than in comparison with

9 the furniture salon. There I met, for instance, for the second time, the

10 battalion commander from that HVO brigade or battalion who did surrender.

11 Q. Approximately how many detainees would you say were at the high

12 school? Approximately.

13 A. Approximately, the same number, I think. We didn't saw all POWs

14 at the same time. Or when I visited - also I didn't mention that - but

15 that was later on the POWs in the stadium, football stadium.

16 Q. Yeah. We're going to go one by one.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. Each side. So we're at the high school.

19 Now, could you tell me if you received any reports or if you

20 spoke to anyone and you gained any information with respect to the

21 conditions, in particular at the high school.

22 A. We got some information from the priest, from Father Janko, about

23 the conditions of the POWs in general, not only the conditions from the

24 prisoners in the high school but also from the conditions of the POWs in

25 the furniture salon and later on in the stadium.

Page 7141

1 Q. Did you get any information with respect to deaths, beatings?

2 A. Yes, we did.

3 Q. Could you please tell the Court.

4 A. In the furniture salon at a certain moment the POWs were beaten.

5 That was information we got from Father Janko, if I'm -- yes, I think

6 from Father Janko. And because of the beatings, a prisoner died. I

7 can't recall his name at this moment. But the names are in the notes.

8 And he died after beatings.

9 And at a certain moment the -- at a certain meeting, the BiH

10 declared that the same person was died of because he fled from the

11 prison, and we've got the same name.

12 And we met some of the beaten POWs in the hospital at the day

13 after we got the information that they were beaten.

14 And in the same period the responsibility from the POWs was taken

15 over from Senad Dautovic -- was handed over from Senad Dautovic to a

16 military police commander, security officer, Senad -- I think Senad

17 Handzic. Yes. Yeah.

18 Q. Colonel, did you yourself visit the hospital?

19 A. Yes. I visited the hospital and I spoke to the POWs who were

20 lying there and were treated there for their injuries.

21 Q. And could you describe for the Trial Chamber what they looked

22 like to you.

23 A. Well, they were severely beaten. They had all kind of bruises on

24 their bodies. And they also make their statements that they were treated

25 badly and that one of them was died because of the beatings. And I saw

Page 7142

1 three or four of them in the hospital.

2 Q. Father Janko, were you able to learn anything with respect to the

3 POWs and the civilians who were detained from Father Janko in your

4 inquiries?

5 A. Well, yes, he had several reports. He was the main focal point

6 for the Croat minority, so everything happened for the Croat minority

7 near the church and there was also a lawyer and they made all kind of

8 statements and handed it over to us and we handed these statements over

9 to -- and also names. And all these things we were gathering. And most

10 of the information we've got from Father Janko. And most of the times he

11 also went with us to certain places, meetings. And he had also from the

12 past influence in the Muslim society.

13 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber if the members of the ABiH

14 confirmed to you that there were detention centres held by them in

15 Bugojno and as to how many.

16 A. Yes. They stated that there were four at a certain moment. That

17 was the furniture salon, the high school, the elementary school, and

18 after that the football stadium.

19 Q. So we have gone through the furniture salon and the high school.

20 Could you tell us your observations of the elementary school and some of

21 the complaints that you received, please.

22 A. No. From the elementary school, I can't remember a lot. I've

23 been there. I've -- I saw it in my notes, but it is not in my mind what

24 I saw there and what is circumstances were. You asked me before, but I

25 can't remember.

Page 7143

1 Q. You just can't remember.

2 A. It's lost. Yeah.

3 Q. In your daily meetings, would you have conveyed your concerns and

4 the reports made to you to the representatives of the army?

5 A. Yes, we did.

6 Q. And could you tell us how it was dealt with.

7 A. Well, they -- improvements would be made in the near future and

8 they would investigate and so on, yes. It was -- that was all.

9 Q. And over the period of time that you were there, did you observe

10 any improvements?

11 A. No. No. We didn't visit that much those POW cages. We asked

12 for more, if we were allowed to visit these cages more, but we didn't get

13 in and at a certain moment all the POWs were gathered in the football

14 stadium or were sent over to Zenica, I think.

15 Q. And you have said to the Trial Chamber that you tried but you

16 didn't get in. Could you tell us who obstructed the access.

17 A. Most of the time I think Senad Dautovic or Abdulah Jelic.

18 Q. And coming from which army?

19 A. From the BiH.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. The ABiH.

22 Q. Thank you. Colonel, could you for the Trial Chamber list the

23 offences, starting with the more serious ones first, that you would have

24 received with respect to the complaints, either from Father Janko or the

25 civilians. Could you please assist us with the type of offences that

Page 7144

1 were reported.

2 A. Well, the beatings, the killings, and the rapes from civilian

3 people.

4 Q. And to --

5 A. And women who were raped, yes.

6 Q. And could you assist us with the ethnic background of the

7 victims, please.

8 A. These were Croats.

9 Q. In your line of duty or in your duties, was exchanging of POWs

10 part of your portfolio?

11 A. Mm-hm.

12 Q. And could you please assist the Trial Chamber as to how the

13 procedure took place.

14 A. We didn't succeed in exchanging POWs. We tried to arrange the

15 exchanging of POWs and we have a lot of talks and meetings about that

16 subject, but we didn't succeed to exchange them.

17 Q. Who were the negotiating parties in the exchange?

18 A. The ABiH, the civilian police, Senad Dautovic, again; and from

19 the Croat side, Father Janko, and the lawyer and the people around Father

20 Janko. And at a later time, the mayor of Bugojno. Mlaco, I think.

21 Mlaco, yes.

22 Q. Colonel, would you say that the members of the ABiH who were in

23 control, would you say or tell us from your opinion if you think that

24 they were fully informed and fully aware of the situation on the ground

25 at the time.

Page 7145

1 A. Oh, yes. I'm sure of that.

2 Q. And is it -- or could you assist us as to whether in your opinion

3 if anything at all was done with respect to the complaints that were made

4 to them with respect to the treatment that was meted out to the POWs, the

5 civilians, et cetera.

6 A. Well, that I can't be sure of. Of course, they were fully aware

7 what was happening. And also the change of responsibility at a certain

8 moment is a sign for me that they were thinking about it and what to do.

9 But they weren't telling us the facts. It was just on an -- of such

10 level that they say, "We try to get better circumstances for the

11 civilians so that the robbing and looting and raping is not going on, and

12 for the POWs that they won't be beaten," and so on. I think some way on

13 other, sometimes maybe they also tried to do that. They always made

14 statements that they have to go on with living together after the war.

15 Well. But I didn't see personally any improvements.

16 Q. So --

17 A. At that time, of course.

18 Q. Would I be correct in saying, then, that the ABiH army did not

19 take the reports seriously?

20 A. I think they take the reports seriously but do not make -- they

21 didn't do with it what we want that they do with it. You know? It's --

22 Q. So --

23 A. I think they read and they heard the complaints.

24 Q. But nothing was implemented.

25 A. Nothing was implemented, yes.

Page 7146

1 Q. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to object to

4 the previous question and the penultimate question. They were leading

5 and this is not allowed in the course of the examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, would you like to

7 respond to the Defence's objection? The Defence claims that the

8 questions you asked the witness are leading ones.

9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I beg to disagree with my

10 learned friend, because earlier on the Colonel did say that the

11 complaints were heard and that nothing was done. And I just wanted to

12 verify further for the Court, hence the reason why the question was asked

13 again. He did say that the reports were made and that they didn't see

14 any action.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are saying

16 that there were reports; that is your claim. Could you tell the -- and

17 could you tell the Chamber whether there was any follow-up. The witness

18 said that there wasn't any. That was the meaning of your question,

19 wasn't it?

20 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, it was.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my learned

23 colleague, with all due respect, has misquoted the witness again, because

24 the witness did not say that they did not do anything. He said that he

25 personally did not see any proof. So I would like to object again to my

Page 7147

1 colleague quoting the witness's testimony in this manner.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has taken

3 note of your objections.

4 Ms. Benjamin, will you be continuing with your

5 examination-in-chief or have you concluded now?

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I just have a few more questions for this

7 witness, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Do continue.


10 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, you indicated to the Trial Chamber that you

11 had meetings on a daily basis concerning the situation in Bugojno and

12 that you wrote reports. Am I correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber tell us

15 basically the contents of the reports, basically what they would be like.

16 A. In the reports, we wrote the conditions of the -- for instance,

17 of the POWs, the bodies we saw, and the accusations - is that the right

18 word - who were made, who we met, at what time, and what we tried to

19 achieve. We always -- and sometimes we wrote that in a daily report and

20 sometimes when it was more we wrote down in a special report the specific

21 circumstances. We met that day and we also wrote down the names we've

22 got or we wrote down personally from people we met or POWs who we saw.

23 Most of the times we let the -- for instance, the POWs wrote down

24 their own names on papers because it was difficult for us to understand

25 the names because of the difficulty of the difference of language.

Page 7148

1 Q. So would by correct in saying that your report basically would

2 contain the humanitarian aspect, the military aspect? Am I right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with the Chamber's

6 permission, I wish to show the witness Exhibit P273, Prosecution Exhibit

7 273.

8 Q. Lieutenant colonel, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, would

9 this be one of the typical reports that would have been written on a

10 daily basis?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if you look at paragraph 4, it speaks of the humanitarian

13 activity, and you outlined on that particular day all the information

14 that you received. Is this what transpired on a daily basis in all your

15 reports?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Could you take it back, please. Thanks.

19 Q. Your period of duty began on the 18th of July, 1993. Could you

20 tell us when it came to an end.

21 A. It came to an end at the 12th, I think, or 15th of September. I

22 think the 12th.

23 Q. And am I correct in saying that a typical day in the life of a

24 colonel during that period was basically writing reports, visiting sites,

25 doing exchanges? That's basically what your tour of duty was all about.

Page 7149

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Colonel, in your opinion, was the goals of the ECMM

3 achieved during your tenure, and how successful would you say was your

4 mission?

5 A. I think we were interesting for both sides, the Croats and the

6 Muslims, and we handed -- we didn't only pass over information to the

7 capital cities of the European Committee but also we handed over

8 information to both sides; in this case, Croats and Muslims. And I think

9 this was a benefit and a kind of assurance for some people, not for all.

10 And -- yeah, I wouldn't talk about success, you know. It's -- we did our

11 job. I can't find the right words. I can't talk about success. But we

12 did our job. That's mainly it.

13 Q. And --

14 A. We tried to do the good thing, you know. That's all.

15 Q. And by "success" I meant you were able to make all parties aware

16 of what was going on on the ground.

17 A. Oh, yes.

18 Q. All parties had full knowledge of what was taking place.

19 A. Yes. And they -- we didn't only do it by ourself. They also

20 asked for us. You know, that was also the way we could work there and

21 our kind of life insurance.

22 Q. And finally, in your opinion, who during the period of time that

23 you were there, between the 18th of July and the 12th of September, who

24 in your opinion you would say would have been the aggressor, the main

25 attacker?

Page 7150

1 A. Well, in the beginning, specifically in Bugojno it was the ABiH.

2 Of course, it was -- there were more attackers than only the ABiH in

3 Bosnia, but we all know that.

4 Q. But Bugojno -- but Bugojno specifically.

5 A. -- ABiH.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Colonel.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this concludes my

8 examination-in-chief.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.

10 I'll now give the floor to Defence so that they can conduct their

11 cross-examination.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Lieutenant Colonel Gerritsen. My name

15 is Edina Residovic, and I represent General Hadzihasanovic, together with

16 my colleague Stephane Bourgon and Alexis Demirdjian.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in addition to the

18 questions that arise from the questions put by my learned colleague

19 Ms. Benjamin, I would like to ask the witness some questions of a general

20 kind, since the witness was present in the area of responsibility of the

21 3rd Corps at the time in question.

22 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, you said that you have already testified

23 before this Tribunal in another case; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. If I may remind you, that was in the Kordic and Cerkez case and

Page 7151

1 you had been called as a witness for the Defence; is that correct?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. After that, you gave the OTP a statement on two occasions. The

4 first time was on the 20th of March and on the 9th -- and the second

5 time, on the 9th of April, 2002. On those occasions, you discussed the

6 BH army, and on the 25th of April and the 5th of May, 2002 you discussed

7 the HVO in greater length. Is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. When you gave these statements, you were already aware of the

10 fact that the generals from the Bosnian army had been indicted by the

11 International Tribunal; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. As you have already told my learned colleague, in July 1993 you

14 arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina and you joined the European Monitoring

15 Mission; is that correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. First you arrived in Zenica in the regional centre in which the

18 head of the centre was a Frenchman, Jean-Pierre Thebault. He decided to

19 sent you to the team which was deployed in Gornji Vakuf. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. The reason why you were sent to Gornji Vakuf was the

23 deterioration of relationships between the BiH army and the Croatian

24 Defence Council in Bugojno; is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7152

1 Q. According to your testimony, you arrived in Gornji Vakuf on the

2 18th of July, 1993 and you joined the monitoring team V2; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. In keeping with the rules of the European monitors, every day you

6 would draft a report on what you had personally seen, on the meetings

7 that you had as well as on the information that you had received, and you

8 would dispatch these reports to the regional centre; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. You were a free agent in drafting these reports. You were under

11 no pressure to record the things that you didn't hear or didn't see

12 yourself; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. In addition to these regular daily reports and based on these

15 reports, the regional centre would draft their own overviews of the

16 situation; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. It would happen that some very important issues would be covered

19 in special reports drafted by the head of the mission. Are you aware of

20 that?

21 A. It seems logical to me. But I didn't see any of these reports.

22 Q. Thank you. You arrived in Gornji Vakuf on the eve of major

23 conflicts between the BiH army and the HVO in Bugojno; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Because of that, the situation in the region was not well known

Page 7153

1 to you; however, subsequently you were informed by your colleagues about

2 the events that preceded those conflicts. Is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. According to your own words, within the scope of your mission you

5 met a number of persons that belonged to both the military and the

6 civilian authorities as well as some officials that were important for

7 the work of the community, like religious officials and political

8 figures; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. During the tour of your duty, you never met General

11 Hadzihasanovic. You didn't know what position he held at the time.

12 Would I be correct in saying that?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. During your mission, you didn't meet any other members of the

15 3rd Corps staff which was located in Zenica; would that be correct?

16 A. That's correct. In Zenica, yes.

17 Q. You never sent any written information about what you saw in the

18 command of the 3rd Corps; would that be correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. At the very beginning, you learnt that Bugojno was in the area of

21 responsibility of the 3rd Corps and that the Operative Group West units

22 were operational in that area; is that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. When you were talking about the things that you learnt during

25 your mission and the preceding events, would it be correct that at the

Page 7154

1 time you learnt that the area of Prozor, Gornji Vakuf was the area of

2 constant fights from the very beginning of the conflict between the army

3 and the HVO, that is, October 1992; and this continued throughout January

4 1993, February 1993, throughout the duration of your mission? Is that

5 something that you learnt while you were there?

6 A. I'm looking for the dates. Oh, yes, that's correct.

7 Q. You also learnt that as a result of these attacks by the HVO on

8 Vakuf -- Gornji Vakuf and Prozor many Muslims from the surrounding

9 neighbouring villages were either expelled from the area or detained or

10 even killed. Did you become aware of that fact as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Throughout the duration of your mission there was fighting in

13 Gornji Vakuf and the front line went through the centre of that town;

14 would that be correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. You were also informed that the HVO and the BiH army before your

17 arrival cooperated in Bugojno and that they manned the defence lines

18 together and that they fought together against the Serb forces. Did you

19 also learn that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You also learnt that in the course of 1993 tens of thousands of

22 refugees came to the area when they were expelled by the Serbs from the

23 area of Krajina and Donji Vakuf; were you aware of that fact?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also knew that the town of Bugojno was regularly shelled from

Page 7155

1 the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You could also hear from your colleagues that in mid-July the HVO

4 withdrew their units from the defence lines facing the Serbs, which

5 created a lot of problems because one part of the territory was

6 surrendered to the Army of Republika Srpska. And as for the rest of the

7 positions, the BiH army had to invest a lot more effort in order to keep

8 those lines.

9 A. I think, for me, this was one of the theories. I am familiar

10 with that statement, but it's not a certain yes that this was the

11 situation.

12 Q. At the moment of your arrival, your mission had already had a lot

13 of evidence about cooperation between the HVO and the Army of Republika

14 Srpska against the BiH army. Are you aware of that fact?

15 A. They even helped the refugees, the Serbs, yes. There were always

16 cooperations.

17 Q. What you could see and what you learnt told you that the HVO was

18 much better armed, they had heavy weapons, whereas the BiH army had more

19 troops. Would that be correct?

20 A. Yes. That was my opinion, certainly.

21 Q. In addition to that, the HVO had a flow of weapons from Western

22 Herzegovina and Croatia, whereas the BiH army had a total embargo on the

23 import of any kind of weapons into the area; would that be correct?

24 A. That is also a statement which I can't confirm personally. That

25 was one of the main lines at that time, yes.

Page 7156

1 Q. The HVO brigade which fought in the area of Gornji Vakuf did not

2 belong to the Operation Zone Central Bosnia, they belonged to the

3 Operation Zone North-western Bosnia and their commander was Commander

4 Siljeg -- correction, North-western Herzegovina and the commander was

5 Commander Siljeg; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Your mission was aware of the fact that in that area a lot of

8 troops came from Herzegovina and a lot of the troops also belonged to the

9 Croatian army. Were you aware of that fact? Could you that with your

10 own eyes as a member of the mission?

11 A. We would be always trying to gather that information if that were

12 troops right from Croatia. We couldn't confirm that. But it seems

13 logical to us at that time, but we couldn't see the uniforms.

14 Q. Would it be correct that the HVO carried out, in sense,

15 operations in order to occupy Gornji Vakuf because Gornji Vakuf was on

16 one of the main roads and this would serve to cut Central Bosnia from the

17 arrival of any goods or anything that could serve for their survival?

18 A. Yes. Both parties had the same interest, because there were also

19 pockets more in the central region of Bosnia from the Croats, and they

20 were also cut off from the supplies from the south to the north. And

21 that's certainly the reason that Gornji Vakuf was a very important place

22 in the routes -- in supply routes to the north.

23 Q. Because of the importance of the main roads, the European

24 monitors placed a lot of emphasis on that issue. That's why I would

25 kindly ask you to look at the special report that the Ambassador Thebault

Page 7157

1 drafted in that respect. My question will be as follows: Would that be

2 the kind of report that the European Monitoring Mission would draft

3 covering important issues in the area?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be

5 provided with this document. We have a sufficient number of copies for

6 everybody in the courtroom.

7 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, do you believe that this was one of those

8 major issues and that you personally witnessed efforts to put a special

9 emphasis on that issue?

10 A. Yes. Of course, it's the main issue.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is an

12 official document drafted by the head of the European Monitoring Mission.

13 And since the witness is aware of the fact that this covers an important

14 issue, we would like to tender this report into evidence as a Defence

15 exhibit.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The position of the

17 Prosecution?

18 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no

19 objections.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

21 Mr. Registrar, can we have an exhibit number.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It will be DH169.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

25 Q. Sir, from the reports, you were able to learn that both the BiH

Page 7158

1 army and the civilian authorities of Bugojno tried to deal with every

2 problem in a peaceful way. Were you informed about that from your

3 colleagues, and could you learn that from the reports?

4 A. Before I came in, there were meetings - I've learned that from my

5 colleagues - where they tried to go on in a peaceful way and to be a

6 community as was before. There were several meetings on that subject,

7 and there were also several incidents who made the progress in these

8 meetings difficult. But I'm not aware of these incidents because I

9 wasn't there.

10 Q. You could also learn that in mid-July tensions in the town itself

11 intensified, tensions between the BiH army and the Croatian Defence

12 Council.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The direct information that you received about the beginning of

15 the conflict spoke about the checkpoint at the crossroads leading towards

16 the Croatian village of Kandija. The checkpoint was set up by the HVO.

17 This is where the fighting started, when Bosniak population was

18 ill-treated. A checkpoint was then set up by the BiH army. The conflict

19 spread onto that checkpoint, and two Croatian members of the HVO were

20 killed there. Are you familiar with all that? Are you familiar with

21 that incident?

22 A. Yes, I've heard about it.

23 Q. On that very day, the 17th of July, the MUP of Bugojno and the

24 HVO police formed a joint patrol consisting of four Muslims and four

25 Croats. Their task was to go to the crime scene and establish why the

Page 7159

1 incident happened. The HVO attacked the patrol, killed three Bosniaks,

2 and one managed to escape. Is this the information that you received

3 about the incident at this checkpoint not far from the village of

4 Vrbanja?

5 A. No, not in this detail. No.

6 Q. However, you must have learnt that after that the HVO attacked

7 the village of Vrbanja and that this conflict at the checkpoint near

8 Vrbanja spread on, to the town of Vrbanja -- on to the town of Bugojno?

9 Were you aware of that?

10 A. Well, there were several theories about -- for the beginning of

11 the fight, and... Well, I can't confirm if this was really the one, you

12 know? But that's my problem, because I didn't get all these

13 informations. Even now I haven't them.

14 Q. That's why you cannot confirm that the BiH army attacked Bugojno;

15 wouldn't that be correct?

16 A. I would say that the beginning of the fights and why the fights

17 started, I cannot confirm. But that the BiH was attacking Bugojno and

18 expelling the Croats, that's what I confirmed.

19 Q. You can confirm, however, that at the moment when the fighting

20 spread onto the town, the commander of the Operation Zone West was not in

21 the town; he was in Zenica?

22 A. The commanders have their communications, and they are not always

23 on the front line. That's correct. So he could be in Zenica.

24 Q. As an officer, you know that it would be normal if a town or the

25 main town is being attacked in his area of responsibility in the

Page 7160

1 Operation Zone West, that it would be normal for a commander to be in his

2 area of responsibility, rather than several hundreds of kilometres away

3 from that zone. In your capacity as an officer in the army, would you

4 not say that this would be a normal procedure?

5 A. It depends on which level the commander is. There are several

6 levels, you know, and I can't -- I haven't a clue of -- on which level

7 this commander you are talking about now was at that moment. I only

8 dealt with the people over there on the ground, and the highest one from

9 the Muslim side I saw at that moment was Selmo Cikotic.

10 Q. It was Selmo Cikotic who wasn't in the town at the beginning of

11 the fighting in town. He appeared maybe two or three days later.

12 A. That's -- for me is strange, yes.

13 Q. This fact would also confirm that if Selmo Cikotic was not in the

14 area, he could not have planned or he could not have started the

15 fighting; that this fighting spread spontaneously after the incident that

16 happened one or two days before at the checkpoint that I have mentioned.

17 A. I agree with that, yes.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You have testified that on the 19th of July you attempted to

21 enter the town but you failed due to the heavy fighting that was taking

22 place in the town itself; is that correct?

23 A. The 19th of July was on a Monday, and on Monday we were in

24 Bugojno. In the afternoon. Because -- we didn't succeed in the morning

25 of a broke-down armoured vehicle from BritBat.

Page 7161

1 Q. However, the fighting in town was so heavy that it did not

2 lend -- the town did not lend itself as an area for negotiations; is that

3 correct?

4 A. No. At that day we went to the HQ from ABiH and we asked for the

5 situation and so on, and we also went to the HQ from the HVO. But we

6 didn't negotiate about a peace settlement or something like that.

7 Q. A lot of the Croatian population from the town together with the

8 HVO unit withdrew through the Serbian territory because they did not want

9 to accept the invitation of the Bugojno authorities to return and to live

10 together. Were you aware of that fact? Did you witness that?

11 A. Yes. I didn't witness the flee through Serb territory, but we

12 heard several times about that and I spoke to several people about that

13 certain event.

14 Q. At the beginning of the conflict, your contacts were mostly with

15 the civilian authorities in Bugojno, in particular with the chief of the

16 civilian police; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct. Also, also.

18 Q. Your main task throughout this fighting was to care for the

19 wounded who were at the Kalin Hotel, the wounded belonging both to the

20 BiH army and the HVO.

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 Q. The first thing you learnt from the representatives of the army

23 on the 23rd of July was that a massacre had taken place in a cellar.

24 Three Muslims had been massacred by the HVO. Together with the

25 representatives of the BiH army and the doctor from the BritBat, you went

Page 7162

1 to that cellar to see what had happened.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. You found three persons who had been tortured, who had been

4 disfigured, and a lady doctor from the BritBat drafted a report on your

5 findings; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct. She made a report.

7 Q. On your return, you saw some detainees from the Eugen Kvaternik

8 Brigade of the HVO. You were given an opportunity to talk to talk to

9 them. They told you that they were treated well. You took their names,

10 and nobody prevented you from doing that. Is that correct?

11 A. That's correct. After insisting to talk with them, we were

12 allowed to talk.

13 Q. You were informed that between 300 and 500 members of the HVO

14 were detained. On the 27th of July, you asked to be allowed access to

15 the prison. This was given to you on the 28th of July, when you visited

16 the Gimnazija and the furniture store. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. You went there, and after that you drafted a report on what you

19 had seen and how many detainees you had seen at those two places; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. On the 19th of July, you reported about the beginning of the

23 conflict in Bugojno, and on the 23rd of July you filed a report on having

24 found three dead civilians in the basement. On the 25th of July, you

25 described your humanitarian activities when providing wounded HVO members

Page 7163

1 with assistance; and on the 26th, your report mentioned the fact that the

2 HVO had used in Livno a bomb against Muslim civilian facilities. Is that

3 the manner in which you filed daily reports?

4 A. Yes. The Livno bombs, yes.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the

6 witness to have a look at part -- at some of the daily reports from July.

7 He drafted these reports, and I would like to show them to him in order

8 to be able to ask him some questions.

9 Mr. President, we have a series of nine reports. This forms one

10 bundle. And we would like the documents to be admitted into evidence

11 under one number.

12 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I have not the -- on the screen, not

13 the right -- oh, okay.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has eleven reports;

15 is that correct?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. These reports are from the

17 month of July, after the witness had arrived in Bugojno.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Nine or eleven reports?

19 Because the transcript says "11 reports." Do we have nine or eleven

20 reports?

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have nine for the month of

22 July, and later the Defence will also show the witness some reports from

23 August. But we would like these reports, providing that the witness

24 recognises them, be accepted as one piece of evidence.

25 Could the reports please be shown to the witness.

Page 7164

1 Q. Are these reports that you yourself drafted, either on an

2 independent basis or working together with your colleague?

3 A. Working together with my colleague. Some were written by me, by

4 myself, and some by my colleague. It depends on where we were and how

5 tired we were and so on. But most of the time my colleague, who was

6 Peter Hauenstein, who was a Canadian guy, and he wrote better English.

7 So he always checked my reports, if I had wrote down in correct English

8 our information.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like

11 to say that in this bundle of reports there are probably two reports for

12 the 28th of July, because we received the same reports that had different

13 numbers. We therefore copied both reports, in spite of the fact that

14 they are identical.

15 Q. Witness, could you have a look at your report dated the 28th of

16 July. Could you have a look at item 4 --

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

18 Q. The 28th.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. 6293.

21 A. I have two of them. Yeah.

22 Q. Have a look at them. They are identical, but the numbers they've

23 been given are different. I have just explained to the Trial Chamber why

24 we have two identical reports.

25 Could you have a look at item 4 in this report. Does it state

Page 7165

1 that on that day you visited the detainees in the Gimnazija, in the

2 secondary school? There were 152 of them and there were 94 detainees in

3 the furniture salon, in the furniture showroom. It also states that it

4 seems that they were being detained in good conditions. It also states

5 that there were certain deficiencies, certain shortcomings, and it says

6 that on the following day you will visit other facilities in which

7 detainees are kept in the town. You also said that you would suggest

8 that the Red Cross make it possible for the detainees to be provided with

9 essential supplies. Is that what you reported with regard to this visit?

10 A. Yes, that's what we reported.

11 Q. You didn't mention any bad conditions in the report. You didn't

12 mention the conditions that you have testified about today before this

13 Court.

14 A. Yes, that's correct. The basic conditions in the high school

15 were better than in the furniture salon. As I can recall, in the

16 furniture salon were no beds.

17 Q. In the next paragraph, and it's the same item, you stated that

18 you had discovered that 40 Muslim civilians were being held by the HVO.

19 You said that they were being very badly treated, that there were old

20 people and children among them, and you stated that it was obvious that

21 they had been maltreated and that after your first visit, when you

22 returned, you discovered that they had been maltreated again. Is that

23 what you reported?

24 A. Oh, that's -- I must -- oh, yes, the visit to a young woman.

25 Yes.

Page 7166

1 Q. You found out from those people that before your visit one of the

2 detainees was killed. Did you find out about that fact?

3 A. Which detainee? From the 40 Muslim civilians?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Oh, I can't recall that. We spoke to the three women at a

6 certain time who were held apart from the 40 -- from the others who were

7 in the cellar of the later torched hotel. I do not remember that

8 somebody was killed there.

9 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go back to another subject. It's

10 not mentioned in the report, but I would like to ask you about this

11 matter to see if you can remember anything about it. In fact, the 40

12 Bosniak civilians, the women, the children, and the old people, you

13 managed to exchange them for 23 wounded Croats who were being treated in

14 the Bugojno hospital; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Could you now have a look at your report dated the 29th of July.

17 Under item 4, "Humanitarian activity," you stated that you had visited --

18 I apologise. This is a report in which your visit to the school is being

19 mentioned again. I apologise. Perhaps I have the wrong document. Is it

20 the same document? It relates the same facts that were mentioned on the

21 28th; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. Yes, they do. That seems to be strange, isn't it? Because

23 it's the same -- it's exactly same as the 28th. That seems strange to

24 me, but ...

25 There's something gone wrong, I think.

Page 7167

1 Q. These are your reports. We received them from the ECMM. Perhaps

2 given that the periods when you filed these reports are different,

3 perhaps you reported on the same situation. Is that a possibility?

4 A. No, I don't think so. I think they are mixed one way or another.

5 Q. Could you have a look at the report dated the 29th of July.

6 A. Wait. This is -- the 29th?

7 Q. The date is the 29th of July.

8 A. I have two reports now, from the 29th as well. One is the same

9 as from the 28th, and one is a different one. Okay.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Do you see this -- 29th, 29th.

12 Q. Have a look at this number, 1712150206201 is the ERN number. Do

13 you have that number? It says R0206201. Do you have that report?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Under item 4 in this report, you stated that you had visited the

16 primary school in Bugojno and that there were 90 detainees there,

17 including soldiers and they were probably people between 40 and 60 years

18 of age, and you said that they were being treated correctly; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you saw HVO soldiers here too and they had been detained

22 there. They were either HVO soldiers or members of the Home Guards. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. At which place? It's going too quick now.

25 Q. It's under item 4.

Page 7168

1 A. Item 4.

2 Q. The second sentence. It says: "There were 90 prisoners with a

3 mixture of soldiers from the 1st Battalion and from the Home Defence."

4 A. Okay. Yes.

5 Q. And you stated that they were being treated correctly; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you have a look at the report dated the 31st of July.

9 Under item 4.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You stated that you had seen some detainees digging graves, and

12 on that occasion you saw three dead bodies and the Muslims who were there

13 said that this was a massacre that had been carried out by the HVO and

14 that there were another 20 such bodies. You said that these people had

15 been dead for a week. Is that what you stated in your report?

16 A. I have -- yes. But we didn't see the 20 others. Okay, that's

17 what the report stated. Yes, that's correct.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given that the

19 witness has recognised all the reports shown to him and has said that he

20 himself drafted these reports or did so together with his colleague and

21 he has commented on a certain number of these reports, I suggest that

22 these documents be admitted into evidence.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before hearing what

24 Ms. Benjamin has to say, all these documents mention Rule 62. So when

25 these documents were sent to you, you were told that these documents

Page 7169

1 shouldn't be disclosed outside the OTP.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Rule 70.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you discussed the issue of

4 Rule 70 with the European mission?

5 It's Rule 70 and not 62.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you were able to

7 follow our exchanges with the European Community, and you know that this

8 problem was finally dealt with by the OTP. They solved the problem. And

9 after the OTP was given permission to disclose these documents to the

10 Defence to be used in court, the OTP then provided us with the documents

11 in question.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, could you confirm

13 that that is what actually happened.

14 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, this is certainly

15 correct, what my learned friend from the Hadzihasanovic Defence just

16 informed you about.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

18 wanted to remind everyone of this, to ensure that everything was clear.

19 As far as this request to have these documents admitted into

20 evidence, are there any objections to be raised by the Prosecution? The

21 witness has recognised the documents that he himself drafted.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no

23 objections.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar,

25 could we have an exhibit number -- one exhibit number for this bundle of

Page 7170

1 nine reports.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The exhibit number for the bundle

3 will be DH170.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 You may continue. We have another seven minutes before the

6 break.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

8 ten daily reports drafted by the witness in August, as I would like to

9 ask the witness some questions about the reports. And I would like to

10 say that within this bundle of ten documents there are two documents and

11 we have a number of copies of the same document. The reason is the same

12 for this: We were provided with these documents by the Prosecution. And

13 there's also a document dated the 5th of August, 1993. It's P305. And

14 there is a document dated the 10th of August; I think the exhibit number

15 is P273.

16 We will show these documents to the witness now to hear his

17 comments because we will later withdraw them from this series of

18 documents and we will tender this bundle of documents as one exhibit.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, could you now have a look at the document

22 dated the 5th of August. You had a look at it a minute ago when my

23 learned colleague, Ms. Benjamin, was examining you.

24 Under item 1, paragraph 3 you stated that you had already seen

25 civilians in the street at that time and you said that you had a meeting

Page 7171

1 with the president of the War Presidency, with the UNHCR representatives,

2 with the chief of the civilian police, and with representatives of Croats

3 in Bugojno. You discussed the subject of humanitarian aid. You

4 discussed organising Croatian civilians and their committees. And you

5 also discussed the subject of prisoners of war. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Representatives of the civilian authorities and of the police

8 informed you on that occasion that sometimes prisoners were beaten. They

9 also informed you that one detainee had been killed because he had

10 attempted to flee. But most importantly, they informed you that as of

11 that time the army would take over responsibility for the prisons and

12 prisoners. That was stated in item 4 of your report. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At that meeting, the authorities in Bugojno said that they were

15 ready for the Croatian population to join the organs of power and said

16 that they were ready to deal with their problems and solve their

17 problems. Do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you now have a look at your report of the 9th of August.

20 Would it be correct to say that on that day you also spoke to

21 representatives of various organs from Bugojno and on that occasion you

22 were informed that 98 per cent of the civilians who had been brought in

23 were released after a brief interview and you also were told that others

24 would soon be released? You were also told on that occasion that the

25 town stadium would be used as a place where all detainees would be kept

Page 7172

1 so that detainees would be held only in the stadium and the primary

2 school. Is that the gist of the conversation that you had with the

3 representatives of the civilian authorities in Bugojno on that day?

4 A. This is correct.

5 Q. Would it be correct to say that on that occasion you were told

6 that there were serious problems as far as food was concerned and other

7 essential items, such as items for hygiene, medical supplies, and they

8 asked for the UNHCR to help in order to solve these problems? Is that

9 correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. You gained the impression that the authorities wanted to do

12 everything they could in order to improve the conditions but there were

13 many difficulties they had to face and there was a shortage of the most

14 essential items that are necessary in order to survive; is that correct?

15 A. I wouldn't say that I gained the impression that the authorities

16 wanted to do everything. I think that's -- I'm not so sure about that,

17 you know, that they had really the intention. It is more saying -- it is

18 more a political statement, in my impression.

19 Q. However, you are aware of the fact that at the time there was no

20 water in Bugojno because the HVO in areas that were under its control cut

21 off the water supply to the town. They cut off the supply for the

22 population and for the detainees. Are you aware of that fact?

23 A. We heard about that, yes.

24 Q. However, you and UNPROFOR, together with the HVO and the Croatian

25 authorities in the territory under their control, attempted to solve the

Page 7173

1 problem, but the Croatian authorities in the HVO refused to cooperate; is

2 that correct?

3 A. I'm not sure about that. I think the subject is right, but I

4 can't recall a hundred per cent from the Croatian -- the statement of the

5 Croatian authorities and the HVO. I was not at that meeting, I think, as

6 far as I can recall.

7 Q. However, on the basis of your personal experience, were you aware

8 of the fact that there wasn't enough food and there weren't enough

9 medical supplies in the town and the UNHCR and the Red Cross had to

10 supply a minimum of these necessities to make it possible for people to

11 survive. Regardless of what is stated in the report, is this something

12 that you are aware of on the basis of your personal experience in that

13 area at the time?

14 A. Oh, yeah, there was a lack of everything, of course. And we

15 tried to bring in aid from UNHCR, ICRC, but at that time they were not

16 allowed to bring the aid in because it was too dangerous. We didn't --

17 I'm not sure about that, if we have had the permission to bring all this

18 aid in, in a way that ICRC and UNHCR were -- could be bring in the aid

19 safely. You know. There must be some assurances from both parties when

20 UNHCR and ICRC get in.

21 Q. You have testified--

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] One more question, Mr. President,

23 and then we will be ready for the next break.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7174

1 Q. You have said that what you saw when visiting the prisons was not

2 entirely in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. My question is as

3 follows: What you saw, was it exactly what could have been provided for

4 the prisoners of war under the given conditions?

5 A. I think we should ask that to the military commanders. There are

6 always lines of communications and lines to supply. And if -- that was

7 the theory we had at that time. If the military people can get food,

8 then the POWs or civilians should have the same amount of supplies, you

9 know. But we didn't know all supply routes. So it's just theory for us

10 what was possible or not possible.

11 Q. Thank you. We will be ready to continue after the break.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to need

13 another 15 minutes or so for my -- for the rest of my questions.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Are you going to

15 ask for these ten documents to be admitted into evidence?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would -- before that,

17 I would like to discuss a few of the other documents with the witness.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

19 We shall now take a break until 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may continue.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, before the break, we were talking about

25 various shortages and the request by the civilian authorities for

Page 7175

1 assistance which would enable them to provide better conditions both for

2 the prisoners of war and the civilian population. In order to deal with

3 this huge problem, the civilian authorities allowed Caritas to help with

4 providing the prisoners. Are you aware of that fact?

5 A. No, I don't think so. No. I'm not sure of that. This is kind

6 of familiar, but ...

7 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Sister Pavka, who was a member

8 of the Caritas organisation?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Was Sister Pavka one of those who were allowed to visit prisoners

11 and bring food to them? Are you aware of that fact? Are you familiar

12 with that?

13 A. No, I'm not familiar with that. I met Sister Pavka in the Kalin

14 Hotel, and after that twice in Kandija, I think, and in Split. But not

15 for this event.

16 Q. Were you aware of the fact that families could also bring food to

17 the prisoners?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the prisoners were provided with

20 medical care, that a lady doctor visited them, and also that prisoners

21 who were hospitalised in the hospital in Bugojno were treated in the same

22 way as any other patient?

23 A. Oh, yes, that was stated many times. What I saw in the hospital,

24 I will -- I have to confirm this. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct, Lieutenant Colonel, that the representatives of

Page 7176

1 the Croatian people informed you on the 17th of August about 18 crimes

2 against Croats - among them rapes, robberies - and that they provided you

3 with a list that you gave to the chief of the Bugojno police at a meeting

4 which took place on the following day, on the 18th of August?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please look at the report of 18 August, please. On that

7 day, there was a meeting with the representatives of authorities in

8 Bugojno and representatives of the Croatian people. You discussed the

9 political situation, and they told you what the plan was for helping

10 their fellow citizens who were a minority at that time. Was that a

11 subject matter of your discussion at that meeting?

12 A. Yes. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct that in Bugojno, out of the 16.000 employed before

14 the war, there were only 2.000 people who held a job and that the most

15 difficult thing for the Croatian population of Bugojno was that there

16 were no jobs, that they couldn't find work?

17 A. Okay. It's stated here, but it's not a subject for me. I

18 have -- I didn't any investigations on that subject. That's better to

19 say.

20 Q. Thank you. We shall now move on to your report dated 19 August.

21 I would kindly ask you to look at item 4. Is it correct, Lieutenant

22 Colonel, that you reported that on that day, together with the chief of

23 police, you inspected in great detail the list containing 18 names of

24 civilians that was given to you by the Croats, indicating a number of

25 grave crimes against the Croatian population; and that on that occasion

Page 7177

1 you were provided with detailed information about the actions that had

2 been taken by the police, that two people had already been arrested, some

3 investigation was underway, that in three or four cases the deaths were

4 not due to crimes but rather to shelling? Is it true that you spoke in

5 such a great detail about the list that you gave to the chief of police

6 on that day?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. You were aware of the fact that the state authorities took their

9 job very seriously and that they accepted your suggestions and they

10 accepted the facts that you presented them with and that they were trying

11 to carry out investigation despite the fact that it was sometimes very

12 difficult to know who the perpetrators were -- is that what you were told

13 at the meeting with the representatives of the authorities on that day?

14 A. I wouldn't say that such is stated here. I'm more -- I would

15 like to say that what I was thinking at that time and also now, that

16 that's the question, you know. Have they done enough investigations and

17 so on and so on? Is it true what they say? It was a statement from the

18 civil police and -- well, that's it. It is not my statement.

19 Q. If I were to put to you that the procedures were carried out

20 before international courts of law, then the statement that you were --

21 that you heard then from the chief of police would appear to be correct;

22 isn't that true?

23 A. No. I can't say it is true or not true, because I couldn't do

24 any investigations by myself and I had to rely on their statements.

25 Q. You have testified that an issue of exchange of prisoners was

Page 7178

1 raised. Is it true that the president of the War Presidency and the

2 civilian authorities informed you initially that all the prisoners of war

3 would be transferred to the detention facility in Zenica where the centre

4 for POWs was? Is it true that you received this information?

5 A. Yes, I've got that information. But -- I've got it from the -- I

6 think from Dautovic, but I'm not sure.

7 Q. You also know that on the following day, when this transfer was

8 supposed to take place, this wasn't carried out because there was not

9 enough buses.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that the reason that they gave you for not transferring

12 people?

13 Are you aware of the fact that after that, representatives of

14 the Croatian people, together with a lawyer who worked as a member of

15 that committee, asked for the civilian authorities and the court in

16 Zenica for the prisoners not to be transferred to Zenica but, rather, for

17 them to stay in Bugojno and if a trial should be carried out, they should

18 be tried in Bugojno, because they were afraid that something could happen

19 to them on the way from Bugojno to Zenica? Are you aware of all this?

20 A. No, not in this detail. No. The buses, I remember, but not

21 this. No.

22 Q. You have also testified about your discussions on exchange.

23 However, while you were there, there was no exchange carried out. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7179

1 Q. The local authorities, both military and civilians, told you that

2 this issue was being dealt with at a higher level of authority. Do you

3 remember that?

4 A. Well, I think that's correct. I think that's correct, yes.

5 Q. Were you aware of the fact that at that time an agreement was

6 signed between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian government, the Ministry of

7 Foreign Affairs of Croatia and the HVO, that there would be an exchange

8 of all the prisoners involving the POWs from Bugojno and some other

9 prisoners and the prisoners held by the HVO in Mostar, Ljubuski, and

10 elsewhere? Are you aware of the fact that such agreement was indeed

11 signed?

12 A. No. No.

13 Q. Would you agree with me that if at the level of the heads of

14 state such an agreement had been signed, that then commanders at a lower

15 level were not in the position to act independently and make independent

16 decisions on any of the exchanges?

17 A. I do not agree with that. But that's the way we are working in

18 the Dutch Army. We always think that the people who are at the newest

19 spot, at the centre of an event, they could decide the best for these

20 kind of things, you know. And we don't like all these higher levels. So

21 I would decide -- I could decide something else.

22 Q. And finally, Lieutenant Colonel, since you have answered a number

23 of questions put to you both by the Prosecution and myself, would you

24 agree with me that if there is a difference between what you have said

25 today and what is stated in the documents that you drafted in 1993, then

Page 7180

1 that what you drafted in 1993 would be correct? Because the lapse of

2 time may have had an influence on you forgetting some of the things that

3 happened at the time.

4 A. Oh, yes, that's always a possibility. But there are also other

5 explanations.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Lieutenant Colonel.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my

8 cross-examination, and now could I please have an exhibit number for this

9 bundle of documents which have been drafted by the witness and the

10 witness himself has been able to provide comments for all of these

11 documents drafted in August 1993.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, objections?

13 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

15 number for these ten documents.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The number will be DH170.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any cross-examination by the

18 other Defence counsel, please?

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We

20 don't have any questions for this witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am turning towards

22 Mrs. Benjamin. Any re-examination which might arise from the

23 cross-examination?

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President.

25 Re-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

Page 7181

1 Q. Colonel, a while ago -- page 8, line 7 -- rather, line 1, my

2 colleague suggested to you that with the passage of time you may have

3 forgotten some of the incidents, and hence the reason why the statements

4 in your reports are different to some of your testimony here today. And

5 you replied by saying, Yes, but that there were also -- that's a

6 possibility, but there were also explanations. And could you explain to

7 the Trial Chamber the other explanations for us, please.

8 A. Yes. And my memory when I look to the results, there were

9 beatings and POWs were badly treated. And POWs were killed. At least

10 from one we know for sure -- I know for sure.

11 When we visited with -- with allowance from the local

12 authorities, when we visited POWs, it's obvious that there will be

13 preparations to show the best. And when I look as a whole to what I've

14 seen and after so many years what I have in my memory but -- then my

15 conclusion is that they are not treated in accordance to the Geneva

16 Conventions. But I also agree with the Defender that after so many years

17 memories are mixed up. So I'll think both interpretations are possible.

18 Well -- and my memory and my opinion is not the truth, that it's -- it's

19 not the only truth, you know. That's the difficulty.

20 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

21 And in my colleague's cross-examination, she alluded to the fact

22 of the refugees and the Serbs coming into Bugojno. Would you agree with

23 me that the new demographic condition of Bugojno caused great discomfort

24 and was of great detriment to the Croats?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7182

1 Q. And would you agree with me that some of those very refugees that

2 she talked about are responsible for some of the atrocities that were

3 brought upon the Croats at the time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And could you help the Court with perhaps at least one group of

6 refugees who you would have known that would have caused these

7 atrocities?

8 A. I must go to my files here.

9 Q. I was hoping that we would not have had to go for that. You were

10 doing pretty well.

11 A. I know.

12 Q. Let me help you, if I may.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. My colleague spoke to you about the Serbs that came in. And did

15 you see any other foreigners, so to speak, in Bugojno at the time, other

16 than the -- the natives, foreigners? Did you see any other refugees?

17 A. No. I saw -- yeah, not the refugees--

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I saw Arab people,

19 but that is not a refugee for me.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Stop, please.

21 Mrs. Residovic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what my learned

23 friend implied, but I have never spoken about any Serbs that arrived in

24 the city. Serbs resided in Bugojno. I never mentioned Serbs, save for

25 the Serbian army that shelled Bugojno. I don't believe that my learned

Page 7183

1 friend should be allowed to raise that question based on my

2 cross-examination.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, the Defence says

4 that they have never mentioned the Serb refugees, the Serb arrivals. Why

5 did you ask this additional question which was not addressed during the

6 cross-examination?

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I stand corrected. But I was

8 under the impression that when my learned friend was talking about the

9 demographic conditions, she spoke about other armies, the Serbs being in

10 there, other people coming into the Bugojno area. And I think that's

11 when the witness answered yes, it wasn't only the ABiH; it was other

12 armies as well. And that is the vein in which the question is asked,

13 because it wasn't only the Serbs, it was other armies as well. That was

14 the question. And he quite rightly answered.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You may

16 proceed.

17 THE WITNESS: That was more on the front lines. These things

18 are...


20 Q. Good. And before you were interrupted, your mind -- you had a

21 recollection and you said that they looked like Arabs. Am I correct?

22 A. Yes. But that was after the fightings. I only saw one Arab

23 people, you know.

24 Q. Okay. So you saw one Arab.

25 A. Yes. It's not the Mujahedin who everybody is searching for.

Page 7184

1 Q. Thank you. And one final question: What is your opinion of --

2 what do you consider as to be "treated correctly"? Could you give a

3 definition for the Court what you consider to be "treated correctly."

4 A. We should look in the Bible, I think. "Treated correctly" is --

5 you should treat somebody as you wish you were treated yourself, you

6 know. That's "treated correctly."

7 Q. Thank you. So if I give you one meal a day, am I treating you

8 correctly?

9 A. Yes, everybody here, yeah.

10 Q. If I lock you up against your will, am I treating you correctly,

11 from holding you --

12 A. Against my will, yes.

13 Q. Am I treating you correctly?

14 A. No, no, of course not.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, the Judges

18 would also like to put some questions to you. I'm giving the floor to

19 the Judge on my right.

20 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Just one question,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any issues to raise

23 after the re-examination? If not, then there will be a question by the

24 Judge.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 7185

1 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, you have

2 told us that you visited the detention centres. My question to you is as

3 follows: Who was in charge? Who was standing guard in those detention

4 centres that you visited?

5 A. I think the civil police at the beginning, and at a certain

6 moment the responsibility was shifted to the military police. But after

7 that, as far as I can recall, I didn't visit the POW cages any more.

8 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Yes. However, when you

9 visited those detention centres, did you not want to put any questions to

10 the detainees? Did you not want to discuss things with them?

11 A. Oh, yes, we -- we did. But the responsibility, we always spoke

12 with Senad Dautovic. In my opinion, he was responsible as a whole for

13 the prisoners and he was, of course, guided one way or another. Well,

14 that's mainly it. And everybody had -- there were civilians who were

15 guarding and there were also people who were in a kind of military

16 uniform. But the military uniforms at that time were very different.

17 You know, not everybody had the same uniform. So it is difficult to say

18 if only civil police was there or military police.

19 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] However, in addition to the

20 civil or military police, you didn't see anybody else? There was nobody

21 else there?

22 A. No, not for guarding.

23 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, to follow

25 up on the questions that you have just heard. You visited these two

Page 7186

1 detention centres as a European monitor in your capacity as a

2 representative of the European Union. You went to those detention

3 centres. You have told us that you spoke to Mr. Senad Dautovic, who was

4 a civilian representative, and you have also stated that there were

5 military prisoners, prisoners who were soldiers. And an officer with

6 your rank obviously can make a distinction between a civilian and a

7 soldier. Those were then troops under the control of the civilian

8 authorities. At that moment you should have spoken to the civilian

9 authorities. Did you not ask yourself that question?

10 A. No. We spoke to both. We also had our meetings with Abdulah

11 Jelic about this subject. And as far as I can remember now, for the

12 definitive visit to POW, we always were guided at that specific day from

13 the visit to Dautovic and not from the headquarters of the BiH, but I'm

14 not sure about that. Yeah. It's hard to remember.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You visited

16 together with Mr. Dautovic the premises, the facilities, and you saw the

17 detainees there. You didn't ask Mr. Dautovic the reason for which they

18 were detained? Because as you are well aware, in all democratic

19 countries if someone is detained, this can only be done on the basis of

20 laws; otherwise, their detention is totally arbitrary. You didn't ask

21 Mr. Dautovic why these detainees were being held there? In spite of the

22 fact that this was the essential task you had, this was what your mission

23 involved. You were there in order to file daily reports about the

24 situation, in spite of the fact that one might ask what the purpose of

25 certain paragraphs is. You had to report on the general situation, the

Page 7187

1 political situation, the military activities; on the other hand, you were

2 involved in humanitarian activity. But in spite of all of these facts,

3 you didn't ask him such a question.

4 What could you tell us about the situation these people were in,

5 these people who were apparently being held there by the civilian police,

6 although there were members of the military who were present? One would

7 have expected that you would ask Mr. Dautovic about the situation in

8 which these people found themselves. That would have been the least one

9 should have done.

10 A. Well, what I stated was that in my opinion it was the civilian

11 police, but that it also could be members of the military police. And I

12 stated something about the different uniforms.

13 I agree with you, Mr. President, that I should have asked those

14 questions, which I didn't. That's the only thing I can say about that at

15 this time.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a document shown by the

17 Defence, you filed a report on the 5th of August. This document states

18 in paragraph 4, which concerns humanitarian activity, that there was a

19 total of 3 to 4 hundred prisoners. This is an enormous number. But at

20 the end of the paragraph you say that "The Croatian representative has a

21 list mentioning 2.500 Croats allegedly detained in Bugojno after the

22 conflict, after the fighting." This is something contained in a document

23 you drafted. You said there were over 300 and the Croatian

24 representative said there were 2.500, and your report doesn't comment on

25 this difference, as far as the numbers are concerned. Nothing is said

Page 7188

1 about this.

2 In paragraph 9, it mentions the intentions for future action.

3 Didn't you feel it necessary to try and clarify the difference as far as

4 the official number of detainees was concerned, 3 or 4 hundred detainees,

5 and the other number that appeared, namely 2.500 Croats? Didn't you want

6 to see why there was such a difference?

7 MR. BOURGON: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. The

10 witness doesn't have the document before him.

11 THE WITNESS: It's no problem. I can answer the question.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can remember it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... Need to

14 explain. The 2.500 is the correct minority which stayed behind in

15 Bugojno, and they weren't imprisoned. They were in their houses and they

16 were kind of detained in Bugojno. They weren't allowed to go to Prozor

17 or to Gornji Vakuf. And the 3 to 4 hundred detainee, they were

18 imprisoned and they were the POWs, and that was a total of the four or

19 seven or whatever POW camps, cages.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On several occasions you said

21 "prisoners of war." What do you mean by this term? What does "prisoner

22 of war" mean for you? What are the characteristics of a prisoner of war?

23 How would you define this term?

24 A. A prisoner of war should be a military person or a civilian who

25 has -- who was taken while he was doing military activities which is not

Page 7189

1 allowed. Somebody who is a civilian is not allowed to fight. But

2 everybody who fights can be taken in prison as a POW. And he has to wear

3 a uniform. And civilian people who are taken in prison are not POWs,

4 for me. But I think that was a bit mixed up up there.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And that means that the

6 civilians who were present there could only have been arrested because

7 they fought, they were under arms. Is that correct?

8 A. In my opinion. But I don't think that was always the case, of

9 course. It should be, but ...

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have another minor question,

11 and then my colleague will ask you some further questions. Did your

12 group have a liaison officer who was in contact with the BH army? Was

13 there an officer at the site who acted as a liaison officer between your

14 mission and the BH army? Did the BH army have -- had the BH army

15 designated a liaison officer?

16 A. We hadn't a liaison officer in our group. Our group existed only

17 of two monitors. But there were liaisons in -- as far as I know, in

18 Tuzla, and I am not -- I think also in Zenica, but I am not sure of that.

19 So we passed our reports to Zenica, and if there were questions on that

20 level with liaisons, that should be asking Tuzla or Zenica.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: Defence

22 counsel showed you reports that you drafted in July and in August. I

23 thought that the reports were drafted on a daily basis. Having read the

24 documents, I noted that there are some days that are missing. In August,

25 for example, the 5th, the 7th, the 9th of August, the 6th of August, the

Page 7190

1 8th of August, et cetera. Did you write reports every day? Does that

2 mean that the Defence just selected certain reports, or were there days

3 on which you did not write any reports?

4 A. We had to write every day reports and we did. And the Defence

5 just selected some days.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that you were

7 shown nine documents for July, ten for August, and -- for example, on the

8 first list of documents, the 20th, the 21st, the 22nd, the 24th, and the

9 27th of July don't appear. But you wrote reports every day.

10 A. Yes, we did.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question: You were

12 in a hierarchy when involved in this mission. You were part of a

13 hierarchy. And this can be seen because your reports contain very

14 specific paragraphs. You didn't decide to have such paragraphs. You

15 have paragraphs concerning the general, political, and military

16 situation. So this was established by someone else. These paragraphs

17 were established by someone else and you were requested to provide

18 information under these headings on a daily basis.

19 A. We wrote and made statements about every paragraph and not

20 someone else. Political is a bit difficult for us as a military officer.

21 But it was at the end rather easier because sometimes it was a political

22 question: What do you think? And we've got it from a higher level, then

23 should we ask what the people on the ground were thinking about the

24 defence armour plan or something. And we answered a question and then we

25 got an answer and we wrote it down.

Page 7191

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were told by your

2 superiors that there was a problem and that you should be told what you

3 thought about the Vance-Owen Plan in the field, for example. That's what

4 you're telling us, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE SWART: Just a few minor questions, Witness. You mentioned

8 today that on a certain day the responsibility for the detainees was

9 transferred from civil authorities to the military authorities, and you

10 also mentioned that in your report of the 5th of August that has been

11 shown to you. I wonder, was this an important event for you? Why did

12 you mention it twice?

13 A. No, at that moment it was not such an important event, but of

14 course we were thinking why that happened. And until now I've got no

15 answer about that. And first we were thinking that Senad Dautovic was

16 moved away, but later on he was back again. And more we couldn't find

17 out, so we had our questions. But we had no answers.

18 JUDGE SWART: It seemed in what you said in the foregoing - but I

19 may be mistaken - that you thought Dautovic was deciding on the transfer.

20 But I may be mistaken.

21 A. On which transfer? Dautovic had made a decision?

22 JUDGE SWART: Yes. The decision to transfer was his.

23 A. No, no, I don't think so.


25 A. That was not -- no, that -- it must be from a higher level. But

Page 7192

1 we do not know the reasons.

2 JUDGE SWART: My main question is the following: You mentioned

3 the fact that this had been done, and my question to you is: Did it have

4 any consequences that you could observe yourself?

5 A. After that, we -- as far as I can recall now, that after that day

6 we didn't saw the prisoners any more. We didn't visit the POW cages.

7 For instance, I didn't -- I'm sure of that -- the battalion commander any

8 more. I asked specifically that I want to see them because at a certain

9 time my opinion was that he was very frightened, the battalion commander,

10 from the imprisoned battalion. But I never saw that guy, the battalion

11 commander, any more. That's the only thing I can say.

12 JUDGE SWART: You just said after that day we didn't see the

13 prisoners any more.

14 A. Not from the battalion, no. I think I only was at the stadium

15 after the 5th, but I'm not sure.

16 JUDGE SWART: But had that any relation with the change, or was

17 it just a coincidence?

18 A. I think that had relation. But the only thing I think, we

19 couldn't investigate on that change and see everything we want. And

20 there also was no POW exchange which was decided by a higher level, I

21 heard just before. And -- well ...

22 JUDGE SWART: Did it make your visiting the prisoners more

23 difficult, or was there no difference in that respect?

24 A. It was -- how do you call it -- postponed? Is postponed right

25 answer? You get --

Page 7193

1 JUDGE SWART: I don't know. You tell me.

2 A. No, "postponed," that is that the right word? We tried to make

3 new visits to the POWs, and then they say, "Well, tomorrow or next week."

4 Or "we have to discuss about that." Or "they are transferred to Zenica."

5 And all these things.

6 JUDGE SWART: So there were more delays.

7 A. More delays.

8 JUDGE SWART: More excuses.

9 A. Yeah, more excuses. That's a better word.

10 JUDGE SWART: It didn't become possible at all.

11 A. At the end I didn't see them any more.

12 JUDGE SWART: And what is the end for you.

13 A. The 12th of December.

14 JUDGE SWART: And why was that?

15 A. Then I was transferred to Tomislavgrad.

16 JUDGE SWART: Okay. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Ms. Benjamin, do you have any questions that arise from the

19 questions the Judges have asked the witness?

20 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel? Do you have

22 any questions?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. President, I have

24 a number of questions.

25 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

Page 7194

1 Q. [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, the Judges asked you some

2 questions about the decision you mentioned in the report dated the 5th of

3 August, according to which responsibility for the prisoners would be

4 transferred from the civilian police to the military authorities. Would

5 it in fact be correct to say that up until that day there were a number

6 of detention facilities in Bugojno? There was the furniture salon, the

7 Gimnazija, the primary school, et cetera. And you visited these places

8 having obtained permission to do so by the chief of the civilian police,

9 Senad Dautovic; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On that day, the chief of the civilian police, who was

12 accountable to the War Presidency in Bugojno as a civilian body, informed

13 you that as of that day - and that was after the death of Mladen Havranek

14 - he informed you that the responsibility that was -- the

15 responsibilities of the civilian police would be transferred to the

16 military authorities in Bugojno. Is that what was said? Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would it also be correct to say that you were told that the War

20 Presidency would take a decision for the Iskra sports stadium to be

21 transformed into a prison and you were told that other detention

22 facilities would be closed down with the exception of the primary school?

23 Is that what you were told?

24 A. Yes, they would be transferred to the sports stadium, yes.

25 Q. Are you also aware of the fact that the War Presidency in Bugojno

Page 7195

1 decided that the stadium should be transformed into a detention facility

2 and the prisoners of war previously detained in the furniture salon and

3 in other facilities were transferred there? Are you aware of that fact?

4 A. I'll read first.

5 I'm aware of the fact that the people should be transferred

6 there. I can't confirm if everybody was transferred to the sports

7 stadium.

8 Q. Were you also told at that meeting that the civilian police would

9 remain responsible for the facilities in which their colleagues, members

10 of the HVO police, were detained? And this is something that you

11 included in one of your reports too.

12 A. I -- no. I can't recall that. No. It's not ...

13 Q. Would it be correct to say that after the Iskra Stadium had been

14 set up - that is to say, several days after the meeting - you personally

15 went to visit the Iskra Stadium? You saw that there were over 100

16 prisoners there and you recognised a commander among them, a commander

17 from the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade whom you had seen before that date. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. I visited the stadium, the sports stadium. And as far as I can

20 remember now, I didn't see the commander Eugen Kvaternik -- from the

21 Eugen Kvaternik Brigade, as far as I can remember.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, may I ask, are these -- is my

23 friend's questions not arising from the questions that arose from the

24 Bench or are we getting new -- another form of cross-examination?

25 Because this doesn't seem to arise from the questions that were posed

Page 7196

1 from the Bench.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Residovic, the Judges

3 didn't ask any questions about the Iskra Stadium. What are you getting

4 at?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm just following

6 up on your questions because you asked the witness whether the conditions

7 changed and whether he was able to visit the detainees. After the

8 meeting, the witness just confirmed that after the Iskra Stadium had been

9 established he had no problems in visiting it.

10 Q. Is that correct? So after the BH army took over responsibility

11 for these prisons, you were able to gain access to the Iskra Stadium;

12 isn't that correct?

13 A. You were able to -- oh, I'll wait. Was I able to gain access?

14 Yes, I've been there, in the sports stadium.

15 Q. I wanted to ask you whether it would be correct to say that after

16 this event, when you were informed that the military authorities would

17 take over responsibility for the prisons? Would it be correct to say

18 that on one occasion Father Janko told you that a group of unknown armed

19 men broke into the stadium at night, they beat the detainees, and the

20 guards didn't manage to prevent them to do this, although they tried to

21 do so? Do you remember this event in August and do you remember

22 including information on the event in your reports?

23 A. Yes. This information was handed over to us from Father Janko.

24 Q. And my last question, Lieutenant Colonel: Could you confirm that

25 Senad Dautovic, the chief of the civilian police, was in fact responsible

Page 7197

1 to the War Presidency, the president of which was Mr. Mlaco, and other

2 bodies -- you most frequently reported to the War Presidency, the

3 president of the War Presidency in order to reach agreement on certain

4 issues you were interested in?

5 A. Yes. We talked about aid, bringing in, and so on.

6 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in view of the

8 question raised about the documents we have presented, it's true that in

9 accordance with the Rules of this Tribunal each party presents evidence

10 that can support their case. Out of all the documents, out of all the

11 daily reports, the Prosecution has only tendered the documents dated the

12 5th and 10th of August. The Defence has tendered a series of documents

13 that demonstrate the numerous activities the witness was involved in, and

14 this is the reason for which we have insisted on having access to all the

15 archives, because it is clear to us that the party representing the

16 Prosecution only looks for the documents they need when searching through

17 thousands of documents. And likewise the Defence only tries to obtain

18 the documents that are relevant to the Defence when going through the

19 documents in question. I thought it was important to inform you of this.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Does the other Defence team have any cross-examination for the

23 witness? We have very little time left now, though.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

25 don't have any questions for this witness.

Page 7198

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel, this

2 completes your testimony. Thank you for having come and for having

3 testified about the events you were familiar with in August 1993. We

4 wish you all the best in your military career, and I will now ask the

5 usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecution tell me

8 about the schedule for tomorrow.

9 Mr. Withopf.

10 MR. WITHOPF: Can we please go into private session?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll go into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

25 May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.