1 Friday, 21 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Registrar.
6 Will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.
12 And good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
13 Prosecution, Ms. Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and Andres Vatter,
14 our case manager. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 And for the Defence, please.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
18 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina
19 Residovic, lead counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna
20 Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic and Mr. Mulalic, legal
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber bids good morning
25 to all those present, the representatives of the Prosecution, the Defence
1 counsel, the accused, as well as all the staff of this courtroom, a
2 courtroom which we are working in after several days, but I must note that
3 the model has disappeared. I hope it will reappear, because normally it
4 should be in front of us and it is not there.
5 We have a witness planned for this morning who should be at the
6 disposal of the Chamber. Would the usher please go and fetch the witness.
7 Mr. Mundis.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 While the witness is being brought into the courtroom, as Your
10 Honours are aware, there is an audiotape of an interview this witness
11 conducted in August of 1992. The Prosecution, as I informed the legal
12 officer yesterday, was intending on playing an excerpt of that tape so
13 that the witness could properly authenticate it.
14 Immediately prior to this morning's hearing, I was informed by
15 Mr. Bourgon that the Defence would not object to the transcript and the
16 tape going into evidence without any excerpt of it being played. And I'm
17 simply wondering if the Chamber, for whatever reason, would like to hear a
18 part of that tape. We're happy to do so. However, in light of what
19 Mr. Bourgon informed me of earlier, it would appear that it would not be
20 necessary for us to play that, in light of the fact that they will not
21 object to the transcript and the tape being admitted into evidence once
22 I've laid the proper foundation.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will see if it's necessary
24 to hear the tape during the testimony.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you stand, please.
2 First may I ask you whether you're hearing me.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are. Fine.
5 You have been called by the Prosecution as a witness. Before
6 reading the solemn declaration, I need to be able to identify you. For
7 that purpose, will you please give me your first and last name, date and
8 place of birth, and your nationality.
9 THE WITNESS: My name is Andrew Hogg. I'm British. I was born
10 in London on the 18th of July, 1953.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your current
13 THE WITNESS: I work as a press officer for the medical
14 foundation for the care of victims of torture, which is a British charity.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993, what was your
17 THE WITNESS: I was a foreign correspondent for The Sunday Times
18 of London. Specifically, I was Middle East correspondent at that time.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were The
20 Sunday Times correspondent.
21 Have you testified before in an international or a national court
22 about the events that took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I haven't.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is the first time for
25 you to testify in court.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to
3 read the solemn declaration, please.
4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 WITNESS: ANDREW HOGG
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to
10 representatives of the Prosecution, I should like to provide some
11 explanations regarding these proceedings.
12 You will be requested to answer questions put to you by
13 representatives of the Prosecution during the stage known as the
14 examination-in-chief. Normally this stage can last between one and a half
16 When that stage of the proceedings has been completed, the
17 counsel for the Defence, who are to your left, will also have questions
18 for you as part of the cross-examination. The questions have two aims in
19 mind, as envisaged by the Rules of Procedure, and that is to verify the
20 credibility of the witness and also to provide elements regarding the
21 context within which the facts took place, from the standpoint of the
23 Upon the completion of the cross-examination, the Prosecution may
24 have some additional questions for you in the light of what answers you
25 gave in the course of the cross-examination.
1 The three Judges, who are here in front of you, may also have
2 questions for you at any stage of the proceedings, but it is customary for
3 the Judges to wait for the examination-in-chief, the cross-examination,
4 and the re-examination to be completed, and only then to ask you
5 questions, the aim being either to clarify your answers or to fill in any
6 grey areas or missing points in your answers.
7 Upon the completion of the Judges' questions, the Defence counsel
8 and the Prosecution may also have some additional questions. Try and
9 answer the questions as completely, as precisely as possible, even though
10 you will be asked about events that took place more than ten years ago,
11 but to the extent that you remember, try and be clear and precise. If
12 questions seem to be too complicated for you, ask the person asking them
13 to rephrase them in clearer and more precise terms.
14 Finally, let me tell you two other points, which normally should
15 not apply to you, but as you are a witness, like all others, it is my duty
16 to tell witnesses that as you have taken the solemn declaration to tell
17 the whole truth, this means that all forms of false testimony are
18 excluded, as any false testimony can be prosecuted, as the Rules of this
19 Tribunal envisage a penalty up to seven years of imprisonment and, in
20 addition, a pecuniary fine. However, the Rules also provide for the
21 possibility of a witness not answering a question, should the answers
22 contain elements that could be used against him. In such a case, the
23 Chamber may compel the witness to answer but at the same time the Chamber
24 guarantees the witness in that case a form of immunity.
25 So those would be, in very general terms, how these proceedings
1 will evolve. Should you encounter any difficulty, please do not hesitate
2 to address the Chamber.
3 I'll now turn to the representatives of the Office of the
4 Prosecutor. I don't know who's going to be the person asking questions.
5 I think it's Mr. Mundis.
6 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
9 Q. Mr. Hogg, you've told the Chamber that you were the Middle East
10 correspondent for The Sunday Times of London in 1993. Can you please tell
11 us when you began that assignment.
12 A. I took over that role in 1991, at the end of 1991.
13 Q. And, sir, can you tell us please when you first began working for
14 The Sunday Times.
15 A. I started working for The Sunday Times in 1984 on a full-time
16 basis. Prior to that, I had been doing what's known as casual shifts,
17 from about 1980 onwards.
18 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about what your responsibilities
19 were as the Middle East correspondent for The Sunday Times.
20 A. Specifically I had to keep a -- a close eye on developments in
21 Israel and the occupied territories, but at that time there were a number
22 of other big stories going on.
23 The -- the first assignment I took in late 1991 was to go to
24 Lebanon, where the last of the hostages were just being released. I spent
25 some three weeks there interviewing people from Hezbollah, which would
1 have been unthinkable some months earlier.
2 I went to Algeria at the beginning of 1992 for the beginning of
3 what turned into a civil war there. I was in Afghanistan when -- well,
4 just after Najibullah had been deposed, so I was there when the Mujahedin
5 took over. I travelled overland disguised as a member of the Mujahedin to
6 enter Kabul. I had been by that time as well to Northern Iraq, where the
7 first elections among the Kurds were taking place.
8 From memory, I think I'd also been in Jordan by that time and
9 probably into Southern Iran.
10 Q. Mr. Hogg, did there come a time in 1992 when you went to Bosnia?
11 A. There certainly did, yeah, in the summer of 1992.
12 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why the Middle East
13 correspondent for The Sunday Times would go to Bosnia, which wouldn't seem
14 to be part of the Middle East.
15 A. Right. Following the Middle East peace conference in Madrid in
16 autumn of 1991, the region in a sense, particularly the
17 Israeli-Palestinian dispute, seemed to go quiet. We found out the reason
18 later; there were meetings taking place in a farmhouse outside Oslo which
19 nobody but the participants knew about.
20 As such, I was anxious obviously to -- to continue appearing in
21 the newspaper. As the Bosnian conflict unfolded, it became clear to me
22 that because of the persecution of the Muslims in Bosnia, that that was a
23 story which would have ramifications throughout the region I covered. So
24 I volunteered to go to Bosnia.
25 Q. Can you tell us how you entered Bosnia.
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. From where did you enter Bosnia?
3 A. From Split. I'd flown to Zagreb, travelled down from Zagreb to
4 Split by ferry, and then entered Bosnia from Split.
5 Q. Did you receive any information when you were in Zagreb that
6 allowed you to focus your attention or what you were interested in
7 covering in Bosnia?
8 A. Not in Zagreb. When I reached Split -- I had heard rumours, I
9 can't remember from where, that there were members of the Mujahedin in
10 Bosnia. When I was in Split, I asked a -- a liaison officer, if you like,
11 for a local Croat politician who was -- the liaison officer was
12 Australian, and I asked him, "Where are the Mujahedin?" And he
13 replied, "You're best going to Travnik to find the answer to that."
14 Q. At approximately what month in 1992 was it that you entered
16 A. It has to be in August. I thought originally that it was late
17 July, but going back over it in my mind, it was -- it was definitely
19 Q. This liaison officer indicated to you that you should go to
20 Travnik. What -- where in fact did you go?
21 A. To Travnik.
22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you got to Travnik.
23 A. Yeah. I travelled with a photographer and a young Croatian
24 interpreter in a Lada Niva.
25 Q. Do you recall the name of the photographer you travelled with?
1 A. The photographer was Simon Townsley.
2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about your arrival in Travnik.
3 Approximately what time of day you got there. Do you recall the specific
5 A. I don't recall the specific date. What happened was we spent
6 either two to three days in that region trying to find the Mujahedin, and
7 various events that took place in that period of time I'm a little unsure
8 of the chronology. I can outline, if you like, the events in total
9 which -- which led to the interview with the Mujahedin.
10 Q. Could you please do so, from the beginning with the time you
11 arrived in Travnik and where you went.
12 A. On arrival in Travnik, the first thing that we would have done,
13 because it was standard, was to find the local army presence, if you like,
14 to introduce ourselves and to get permission to travel around the region.
15 In -- in dealing with the Bosnian army in Travnik at that time,
16 they had what appeared to be a command post close to a waterfall. The
17 reception we got was very civil, and we asked about the Mujahedin, and the
18 response was that it would be entirely up to them if they wanted to talk
19 to us.
20 At some stage I was informed that members of the Mujahedin were
21 staying in a house close to the painted wooden mosque in the centre of
22 Travnik. I visited the house, but it was empty; there was no one there.
23 We went back several times.
24 While in Travnik, we went then to Turbe, which is a little hamlet
25 just outside Travnik, slightly to the north of Travnik, because we had
1 been told the Mujahedin were there. Turbe was under heavy mortar
2 bombardment throughout the hour or so that we spent there. We were
3 talking to Bosnian army officers who were in a room that was -- next to
4 them there was a room full of HVO soldiers. We didn't have anything to do
5 with them. We were concentrating on the Bosnian forces at that particular
7 Q. Mr. --
8 A. Sorry. They --
9 Q. Mr. Hogg, if I could just briefly interrupt you at this point.
10 When you tell us that Turbe was under heavy mortar bombardment, do you
11 know which parties were involved in the armed conflict in August of 1992
12 when you were there?
13 A. Yeah. I mean, the mortar bombardment was from the Serbs, who
14 were slightly to the north of the town.
15 Q. You also have told us about speaking to Bosnian army officers
16 next to a room full of HVO soldiers.
17 A. Mm-hm.
18 Q. During the time you were present in August of 1992, did you
19 become aware of any relationship between HVO soldiers and Army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina soldiers? And if so, can you tell the Chamber a little
21 bit about what you observed and what you became aware of.
22 A. I was surprised -- I was under the impression that -- that there
23 was a unity, if you like, between the Croat and the Bosnian soldiers
24 facing a common threat from the Serbs. I was therefore surprised when I
25 reached Turbe to suddenly realise that in fact it wasn't -- it didn't
1 appear to be a unified command, which was something that I -- I thought a
2 lot about, which is why subsequently when trying to find the Mujahedin I
3 decided we'd probably be better off talking to members of the HVO, because
4 the -- the Bosnians -- the Bosnian army people that we had met had
5 been --"reluctance" is too strong a word, but they had been less than
6 enthusiastic to set up any kind of meeting.
7 Q. Now, you've told us that it didn't appear that there was a
8 unified command. Can you characterise in any way the relationship between
9 the HVO and the ABiH? Was it a hostile? Was it a friendly? Was it just
10 that they had two different commands? How can you -- if you know, how can
11 you characterise this relationship, in light of the fact that they faced a
12 common foe in the Bosnian Serbs?
13 A. I didn't really have that much to do with -- let me start that
15 It wasn't something that I was in a position to become an expert
16 on. All I -- all I could do was observe, observing the -- the split at
17 Turbe, observing the -- different checkpoints were manned by people from
18 both parties, if you like. And there was no overt hostility, but I
19 certainly sensed a tension there, if you like.
20 Q. Okay. Sir, when I interrupted you, I believe you were telling us
21 about the -- your arrival in Turbe, which at that point was under mortar
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Can you please pick up from -- from Turbe.
25 A. Yeah. There was -- the bombardment was intense. It was so
1 intense that it would have been foolhardy in the extreme to go out
2 wandering about up to the front line which is close by. And by the same
3 token we had been told by the Bosnians there at that post that there were
4 no Mujahedin in the area.
5 So we went back to Travnik, and I think at some stage the
6 following morning there was a Serb air raid on a factory at Novi Travnik.
7 We were at the hospital in Travnik, and the first we knew about this was
8 when cars began appearing with badly wounded people in them. So we went
9 immediately, myself, the photographer, and the interpreter, to Novi
10 Travnik, where -- well, we could see that, you know, the burning factory.
11 And we went to the HVO post there, the HVO post, and got the story, if you
12 like, of what had taken place.
13 Sometime a bit later in the conversation the question of the
14 Mujahedin came up, and somebody in the HVO suggested Zenica was the place
15 to go and look.
16 If I could explain that it wasn't -- I was very keen on finding
17 the Mujahedin, but the -- the reason was not just purely out of, you know,
18 sort of journalistic interest. If you work for a Sunday newspaper, you
19 have to find your own stories. You can't follow the daily day-to-day news
20 because you're always going to be overtaken by your colleagues on daily
21 newspapers. So it was the pursuit of an exclusive that meant that we
22 drove then to Zenica. And having been given information in Novi Travnik
23 by the HVO, we went to the HVO in Zenica and said, "What can you tell us
24 about the Mujahedin here?"
25 They had a debate among themselves as to whether they should, I
1 suppose, tell us what they knew, but they ultimately decided to do so. I
2 think that -- I mean, what -- what they did was direct us to an old
3 people's home down by the river in Zenica as being the place where we
4 would find the foreign fighters. They told us that they were becoming
5 increasingly alarmed by the appearance in the town of men driving
6 up-to-date 4 by 4s with good communications equipment who were clearly not
8 So we went to the old people's home; by this time it was sort of
9 early afternoon, and it was empty, except for a group of Bosnian soldiers
10 who confirmed that there were Mujahedin staying at this particular
11 property but that they were aware at the front line, and we couldn't
12 really find out which front line or where.
13 They told me that if I wanted further information, I should call a
14 Bosnian officer. I'm afraid I don't recall his name, but I think in my
15 statement there is a couple of possibilities mentioned. It was -- it was
16 very clear to me that -- that the Bosnians at the old people's home were
17 there as minders, if you like, for the Mujahedin and that the -- by
18 providing me with this number, it indicated to me that -- that there was
19 formal, official recognition by the Bosnian forces of the Mujahedin in
20 that area.
21 We -- having drawn a blank at the retirement home, we then
22 travelled south to Visoko, which we knew was an active front line, to see
23 whether we could find any of the fighters there. Visoko was also under
24 very heavy bombardment, and we went to the local hospital where a woman
25 doctor told me that a large number of Mujahedin had passed through just a
1 few minutes earlier. I didn't actually believe her. I thought that --
2 she was very shaken. As I said, the bombardment outside was intense, and
3 she was -- you know, she was -- she was clearly working all hours.
4 After a while, we decided we were going to get nowhere there, so
5 we pulled back to the Zenica region, and I think it was at a -- a
6 checkpoint that once again we asked, "Where are the Mujahedin?" And
7 somebody told us to go to the village of Mehurici. When we -- and this
8 is -- by this time, it was quite late in the afternoon, and you don't want
9 really to be travelling along unknown roads late in the day in Bosnia
10 because you were concerned about the amount of alcohol the people at the
11 checkpoints by that time would have drunk, so it was -- you know, it was
12 getting time to find somewhere to -- to stay and --
13 Q. If I could just again interrupt briefly. Do you recall
14 approximately where this checkpoint was?
15 A. Yeah. It was -- it was somewhere between Zenica and Travnik on
16 a -- you know, on a sort of back route.
17 And we got to Mehurici, and the first thing that we did was --
18 was stop a passing woman and say, "Where are the Arabs?" And she just
19 gestured up the hill. So we drove on up the hill almost sort of through
20 the village, and we turned a corner and we saw a group of foreign fighters
21 with a couple of men, clearly quite young men who I took to be Bosnian
22 army. They were all engaged in what appeared to be washing some -- some
23 new-looking 4 by 4s.
24 Q. Again, Mr. Hogg, if I could interrupt you. You mentioned "a
25 couple of men clearly quite young who I took to be Bosnian army." Can you
1 perhaps elaborate on that. Why did you reach that conclusion, and what do
2 you mean by "young"?
3 A. What I -- I reached that conclusion -- I can't be specific. It
4 was a long time ago, but it had something to do with the insignia on their
5 clothes, and it would have had something to do with the clothes they were
6 wearing, which appeared to me to be, you know, regular Bosnian army issue,
7 if you like.
8 The reason that I mentioned that they were young is because my
9 first instinct was that any Bosnian army person there was likely to prove
10 obstructive, but I sort of -- taking in the scene as a glance, I realised
11 that these -- that these two were really in a subordinate role. They
12 appeared to be assistants or something like that. They certainly didn't
13 appear to be in command of the people that they were with.
14 I walked towards the group. We were a little bit above them on
15 the road. They were just off the road, on a sort of a -- a bit of gravel
16 or whatever. And I simply said, "Does anybody here speak English?" And
17 much to my surprise, one of the foreign fighters detached himself from the
18 group and said something along the lines of, "Yes, I do. How can I help
19 you?" I explained to him that we had been searching for him for several
20 days in quite difficult circumstances and that we felt that -- I felt that
21 I wanted to tell his story, I wanted to explain why the Bosnian army
22 had -- well, I wanted to explain why foreign fighters were in Bosnia.
23 Q. Sir, if I could again briefly interrupt you for some
24 clarification. This individual who spoke English, did you subsequently
25 determine his identity?
1 A. He -- I mean, I asked him. I think he even introduced himself as
2 Abdel Aziz.
3 Q. Can you please describe the appearance of Mr. Abdel Aziz.
4 What -- what did he look like?
5 A. From memory, he was -- he was not a large man. He was -- he was,
6 you know, quite compact. I couldn't work out what his nationality was. I
7 thought at first that he was probably from Pakistan. I was surprised at
8 the quality of his English; it was good. And I -- I didn't really detect
9 the kind of inflections that I -- I associate in Britain with people from
10 Pakistan speaking English. So then I thought well, he was probably --
11 probably from an Arab country. He was dressed in sort of traditional
12 Afghan dress, if you like, the -- I think it's called the "shalwar
13 kameez," something of that nature. It's sort of baggy trousers, and over
14 that -- and a tunic top. And over that he had a military coat; I think
15 it was dark green from memory. I don't remember anything on his head. It
16 wouldn't have been at all out of keeping if he had been wearing a
17 "pakoul." He looked like a Mujahedin from Afghanistan.
18 His hair and his beard were hennaed, which because of my travels
19 in the Middle East by that time I recognised as being a sign that he was
20 prepared to die in battle.
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the other people that were
22 in the group with Abdel Aziz.
23 A. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't a large group. It was probably between
24 six and ten, I would have thought. Most of them appeared to be in combat
25 fatigues of some kind, camouflage trousers. One person stood out as
1 wearing a kind of a grey jumpsuit or track-suit, something of that nature.
2 He clearly wasn't Bosnian. He said absolutely nothing, of course. But
3 the group looked like people that I had been in Afghanistan with just a
4 few months earlier.
5 Q. Can you give us any kind of breakdown as to the appearance of the
6 group between what would appear to you to be locals and what would appear
7 to be foreign?
8 A. I can't -- from memory, it -- it seemed to me that the only local
9 contingent were the two men I've mentioned, who -- you know, who appeared
10 to be Bosnian military men. The rest of the group to me looked clearly
11 foreign. And subsequently, when Abdel Aziz allowed us to take his
12 photograph, one of the -- the conditions was we didn't take any pictures
13 of any of these men. And that also accorded with what I'd experienced
14 in -- in Afghanistan with the Arab Mujahedin there.
15 Q. Can you, Mr. Hogg, continue, please, with the discussion that you
16 had with Mr. Abdel Aziz on this first occasion that you met him.
17 A. I explained to him that we were interested in -- in telling the
18 world why the Mujahedin were there. I would have without doubt have told
19 him that my sympathies were on the side of the Bosnian people. I -- I
20 without doubt would have asked him where he was from, and I can't remember
21 his precise answer, but he clearly wasn't going to discuss that.
22 It was very short. It was -- and very civil. He simply said to
23 me, "If you want an interview, come back here with permission from the
24 Bosnian army. I will -- I will grant an interview if they allow it."
25 My real concern was that between being able to get that
1 permission and -- and getting the interview, he was going to vanish to a
2 front line and we wouldn't be able to find him. By now it was -- it was
3 early evening. We -- I'm pretty sure I found out from him that he wasn't
4 planning to go anywhere that night and that he would be there first thing
5 in the morning, because that was our only option was to go and get the
6 permission and then go back there -- there the next day.
7 So we drove very fast to Travnik to the army command post by the
8 waterfall and we sent the female interpreter in to get the necessary
9 permission, because we figured she had a better chance than we did. I
10 wasn't expecting to get that permission at that particular time.
11 Q. Sir, why -- why did you send the female interpreter into the
13 A. She was young and good-looking and she spoke fluent what was
14 known as Serbo-Croat at that time, and I -- she was -- she was an
15 accomplished, I suppose, in journalist's terms you'd call it a fixer. She
16 knew how to flatter people the right way.
17 Q. Okay. And again, can you describe the building that she entered
18 and what that building was being used for.
19 A. The building, from memory, was either a -- formerly was either a
20 restaurant or a restaurant with rooms to stay in. It clearly had been
21 part of the Travnik tourist itinerary at some stage in the fairly recent
22 past. It -- you know, it was quite a scenic place. There was the
23 waterfall -- sorry, there was the waterfall rushing outside. I think
24 there was -- from memory, there was a large tree there. It was -- it was
25 clearly somewhere that tourists at some stage, you know, in the recent
1 past had stopped to enjoy the town.
2 Q. And in August 1992, what was that building being used for?
3 A. It seemed to me to be being used as a army command post. There
4 was a sort of an operations room inside.
5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you -- you came to that
7 A. Because when we had been trying to find the Mujahedin the
8 previous day and we had gone to this command post and we'd met with a
9 woman officer, and she had told us, "Look --" we'd said, "If any of them
10 come in, will you ask them if they will give us an interview?" And we
11 were there later in the day when a very large Mujahedin fighter of Middle
12 East appearance walked in. And so the lieutenant pleaded with her to ask
13 him whether he'd give us an interview. And I observed -- I was able to
14 observe from the door that there was, you know, there was communications
15 equipment on the table, there were maps on the table. It was -- you
16 know -- it was a command post of sorts.
17 Anyway, the response from the Mujahedin fighter, who seemed to be
18 very much at home there, was no. And I was told that he said something
19 along the lines of, "This is my protest against the West," as a -- as his
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened after you sent your
22 female interpreter into the building, then, on the following day?
23 A. Right. Well, she came out of the building clutching the paper.
24 We were elated. We drove -- by now it was nightfall. We drove back to
25 Kiseljak, which was some miles south, but where there was communications.
1 There was a telex that we could use to talk to London, and there were
2 rooms to stay in, and there was a restaurant to get something to eat.
3 And then at first light we tore back to Mehurici, getting there
4 well -- you know, sort of well before the 9.30 -- I'd made some kind of --
5 I said something to Abdel Aziz about something -- if we get back here by
6 9.30 or whatever, and he'd acquiesced to that. So we were there by about
7 8.30, I guess. We were there well early.
8 Q. When you say "there," "we were there by about 8.30," where again
9 are you referring to?
10 A. In Mehurici, the village itself. There was a little -- what from
11 memory was a school, which seemed to be where the Mujahedin forces were
12 based. And on the opposite side of the road there was a very rundown
14 We didn't really want to attract too much attention to ourselves
15 by, you know, sort of standing conspicuously around, for fear that
16 somebody might come and negate the permission that we'd been given. So we
17 went into the cafe and sat there for some time. By that time I had
18 already gone to the gate and asked people to pass word in that we had the
19 necessary permission and hat we were waiting outside.
20 Q. How long did you wait?
21 A. From memory, it was about 40 minutes or something like that.
22 Q. Then what happened?
23 A. When he came out, I immediately showed him the -- the piece of
24 paper. He said something along the lines of, "Follow me." He got into a
25 4 by 4, we got into ours, and we followed him probably about half a mile
1 up the hill until he turned off into -- into what was a field effectively
2 with a stream at one end with woods screening the -- the stream from the
3 field. And there were rocks in the field. And he got out, we got out,
4 and -- before the interview began, I was -- I was concerned -- I didn't
5 want anything to upset him. I didn't want -- I didn't want to cause
6 him -- to bring it to a sudden halt, and so my first question was, "Where
7 do you want the interpreter to sit?" And he gestured to some rocks quite
8 some distance off. Actually, he clearly didn't want her anywhere near
9 him, and so the interpreter moved some distance off.
10 Q. If I could again, Mr. Hogg, briefly interrupt you. What happened
11 to the piece of paper once Mr. Abdel Aziz took that from you?
12 A. I can't be certain. I believe he retained it, but I can't be
13 certain, I'm afraid.
14 Q. Again, can you describe the number and types of people who were
15 present on this morning.
16 A. Okay. There was myself, the interpreter, and Simon Townsley, the
17 photographer. There was Abdel Aziz, and I recollect that there was -- he
18 had two minders with him, both of them carrying AK-47s.
19 Q. These minders, as you've put them, did they appear to be foreign
20 or did they appear to be local, and what were they wearing?
21 A. They appeared to be foreign. One of them was dressed in the kind
22 of black or grey jumpsuit that I described earlier. He seemed to be --
23 his face was utterly impassive. He seemed to be very, very capable and
24 very much at ease with his weapon, as indeed did the other one, but the
25 one I've just mentioned was the most noticeable of the two. They took up
1 sort of strategic positions, I suppose. One of them by the entrance to
2 the field and the other one on a little crop of rocks quite close where we
3 were sitting.
4 It was -- part of me thought this was, you know, over the top but
5 another part of me thought, you know, well, if you had received training
6 of some kind, you know, this is what -- this is what you would -- you
7 would see, people -- when I've come across, you know, sort of special
8 forces soldier, even in innocuous places, there is a sort of a -- a
9 forward behaviour. And these guys seemed to me to know what they were
11 Q. Can you please pick up with where you were when I interrupted
12 you; that is, placing yourself and Mr. Aziz and Mr. Townsley at this
14 A. Okay. Mr. Aziz sat down on an outcrop of rocks, I sat down next
15 to him, took out the tape recorder. I'm pretty sure I would have asked him
16 permission to record, but I took a shorthand note of the interview as
17 well, and then we got underway. It was a typical press interview.
18 The -- I wanted to extract as much information out of him as
19 possible, but I also knew that the story would only have half the impact
20 if it didn't have a photograph with it. And I also knew that I couldn't
21 ask for a photograph immediately. I had to develop some kind of rapport
22 with him and build up a kind of relationship. So the questioning started.
23 When I got what I deemed to be enough to write the story, although
24 not as much as I wanted, we then broached the subject of the pictures.
25 And as I expected, that took a little bit of negotiation. But ultimately,
1 he agreed to have his picture taken, which I also was relatively surprised
3 Once that had been accomplished, I then went back and continued
4 the questioning for a little longer to get -- to get everything out.
5 Q. Approximately how long did the interview take?
6 A. I would think probably just over half an hour, in that region.
7 Q. What was the reason that the interview concluded?
8 A. Abdel Aziz had made it very clear at the outset that his time was
9 limited. As the interview progressed, you can -- you can just pick up
10 small signs when somebody is growing impatient, and I certainly began
11 picking up those signs. His -- his impatience grew at about the time that
12 his minders' impatience grew, and in the end one of them said to him along
13 the lines of, you know, "You've got to be going," or something like that,
14 and so he brought the interview to a sudden close then.
15 Q. What did Mr. Abdel Aziz do at the conclusion of the interview?
16 A. I -- I really can't remember. I would have imagined that we
17 shook hands and got into our respective vehicles and then we drove the
18 fastest we could away from Mehurici. We had to reach the coast to -- to
19 be able to file the story for that week's edition.
20 Q. So just so that I understand, Mr. Hogg, as soon as the interview
21 was done, you, Mr. Townsley, and the interpreter immediately left and
22 returned to, as you say, the coast. I take it you returned to Split.
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. You've told us that you recorded this interview.
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. What did you use to record the interview?
2 A. A small little micro cassette recorder.
3 Q. When you were interviewed by investigators of this Tribunal, did
4 you provide them a copy of that tape?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And, sir, yesterday afternoon we met, and I asked you to listen
7 to that full tape.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. At the same time, I gave you a copy of a transcript.
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Can you tell us about listening to that tape and reading the
13 A. The transcript was an accurate but not completely accurate record
14 of what was on the tape. There were a couple of amendments, none of them
15 of a substantive nature. On two occasions I'm supposed to be talking,
16 when in fact it was Simon Townsley talking. The name of a town is -- has
17 been misheard, and that's about it really.
18 Q. Did you recognise your voice and Mr. Aziz's voice on the tape?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, sir, you also made some pen-and-ink changes to that
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And you retained a copy of your pen-and-ink changes.
24 A. I'm afraid I don't have it with me.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this time I would ask that a copy
1 of the transcript be provided to the witness and perhaps he can recall
2 those places where he did make some minor changes.
3 Mr. President, I would ask that this be placed on the ELMO so
4 that the witness can -- everyone can see exactly what the witness is
6 Q. If you could just, Mr. Hogg, for one moment -- we're going to put
7 this on the overhead so that everyone can see exactly what it is that
8 you're changing.
9 MR. MUNDIS: For the benefit of the Chamber, did -- have the
10 Chamber been provided copies of the transcript? We're on the second page
11 of the transcript, with the last two digits being 4-0.
12 Q. Mr. Hogg, I see that you've made two markings. Can you please
13 tell us what those two markings that you've made to the transcript are.
14 A. Yeah. At the top of the page, where the word was said to have
15 been inaudible I clearly made that out to be "official." So Abdel Aziz
16 was saying: "About myself or my group, it is no allowed to come
17 through any official organisation."
18 Q. And, sir, again, you picked that up listening to the tape?
19 A. Yes, I did. Yeah.
20 Q. And the second change?
21 A. Is there's no such place as Paroba in the next -- when I asked
22 the question: "Is this area basically from Visoko round to Paroba?" It
23 was something beginning with a K but I couldn't make out precisely what,
24 I'm afraid, on the tape.
25 Q. I believe the other changes were on the page marked 4-8, the last
1 two digits being 4-8.
2 A. Yeah. Where I'm supposed to be speaking now, "I have my duty as
3 well to help, and in order to help we need to illustrate the positive
4 action that the Mujahedin are taking," and that was Simon Townsley saying
5 that, I think.
6 Q. Could you please, sir, make that change on the transcript.
7 A. Sure.
8 Q. And if you see any other place where you believe it was
9 Mr. Townsley rather than yourself.
10 A. I believe that Mr. Townsley said, "But you don't want your face."
11 I don't think that was me, from listening to the tape yesterday.
12 Q. Again, sir, if you could please make that change.
13 A. [Witness complies]
14 Q. And, Mr. Hogg, according to my notes, there was one other word
15 that you thought was improperly spelled or transliterated.
16 A. Yeah. Sorry. I have to -- to look.
17 Q. It's actually on the same page, in the lengthy question --
18 A. Oh, yeah. In -- sorry about that. Yeah. The usual spelling
19 of "Amphal" is A-m-f-a-l, not P-h-a-l. But I mean, it's a translation
20 from Arabic, so it's open to question.
21 Q. Mr. Hogg, do you recall any other changes or corrections to the
22 transcript based on listening to the tape yesterday?
23 A. No. No, I don't.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this time the question arises as
25 to whether Your Honours would like to hear an excerpt from the tape. We
1 do tender both the transcript and the digitised version of the audiotape
2 into evidence at this time.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber deems that it won't
5 be necessary to listen to the tape.
6 As far as the tendering into evidence of the transcript is
7 concerned, the Defence has the floor.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The Defence for General
9 Hadzihasanovic, we met with the witness yesterday and we are satisfied
10 that the witness is the person who met with the persons who are mentioned
11 in the transcript, and we don't have any objection to tendering this into
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence counsel,
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
16 don't have any objections to the admission of this into evidence.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
18 Mr. Registrar, can we have a number for this document.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the audiotape gets exhibit number
20 P112, tab 1; and the transcript of the audiotape gets the exhibit number
21 P112, tab 2.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, for the record, I am providing the
23 usher with a CD-ROM containing the digital version of the audiotape, which
24 as the registrar said will be P112, tab 1.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Just to clarify one thing. The Trial Chamber has asked for the
3 position of the Defence with regard to the transcript of this interview.
4 However, you never asked me about the audiotape. However, I wish to say
5 that the Defence does not object to the audiotape being admitted into
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I would also like to add that the B/C/S version
9 of the transcript gets the exhibit number P112, tab 3.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 I should also note for the record that the witness made the
13 corrections on P112, tab 2 and not on the B/C/S version, P112, tab 3. I
14 would simply point that out for the record.
15 Q. Mr. Hogg, did there come any time after August 1992 that you
16 returned to Central Bosnia as part of your duties as a correspondent for
17 The Sunday Times?
18 A. Yes. I returned later that year, and in fact spent Christmas
19 that year in Central Bosnia. I then returned to the area twice the
20 following year. It could have been three times. I'm not absolutely
21 certain, but at least twice. In -- from memory, around sort of April time
22 and then around June, I think.
23 Q. I'd like to focus your attention on the period of April. I
24 assume that was April 1993?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where you went in Central Bosnia
2 in April 1993.
3 A. Well, I went to various places. The one that really sticks in
4 the mind -- I was only there at that stage for several days at the end of
5 which we pulled out because fighting had erupted in Mostar between the
6 Croats and the Muslim forces. But in the two to three days that I was
7 actually there, I was part of a group of journalists and photographers
8 taken by the British forces in the area in an armoured vehicle up to a
9 village called Miletici.
10 Q. And, sir, for clarification, do you know when you say "the
11 British forces," do you know which British forces they were?
12 A. It was the Cheshires, under Bob Stewart.
13 Q. They were there as part of BritBat.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Can you tell us why BritBat took you and other journalists in an
16 armoured vehicle to Miletici.
17 A. BritBat at that time was anxious that people back in the UK had a
18 proper understanding of what their role was in Bosnia. One part of their
19 role that they saw was to, because there had in that area also been
20 fighting between Croats and Muslims, on a daily basis they would send out
21 patrols to outlying hamlets to establish what the level of need was in
22 those hamlets or just simply to establish what was happening on the
24 I can't remember why we went to Miletici. I can't -- by which I
25 mean I have no recollection of being told beforehand, "There has been a
1 massacre in this village." My memory is of simply arriving in this
2 village as part of a -- a sort of fairly ordinary British Army patrol and
3 then suddenly discovering that in fact a massacre had taken place there.
4 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what you saw in Miletici
5 and whom you met there on that occasion.
6 A. There were several elderly deeply distressed Croats. They --
7 there was a soldier from the Bosnian army who told us that he was there to
8 guard them. The villagers told us that several young men had been killed
9 by the Mujahedin by having their throats slit. We were then -- a house
10 was then pointed out to me called "the white house." I don't know if it
11 was called the white house, but I was told to go and look in the white
12 house. When I walked into the downstairs room, there was a bowl really
13 about a third full of what appeared to be blood, and there was a ladle
14 there, either inside the bowl or beside it. I can't remember which. From
15 memory, the floors -- there was polythene on the floors as well which was
16 smeared with blood. And I was told that the young men of the hamlet, if
17 you like - it was far too small to be called a village really - but the
18 young men had been taken one by one, their heads held above the bowl,
19 their necks slit, and their blood collected in the bowl, which had then
20 been ladled back over their heads as they lay dying.
21 Q. Do you recall the approximate date that you were in the village
22 of Miletici?
23 A. I -- I think it has to have been April. It could have been late
24 March, but I think it has to be April.
25 Q. Sir, for the record, in light of a previous answer, you said: "I
1 think it has to have been April. It could have been late March."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So sometime in the spring of 1993 [Realtime transcript read in
4 error "1992"].
5 A. It was in the spring, yeah. It was ...
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hogg.
7 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further
8 questions in direct examination.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There may be an error on
10 page 30, line 14, spring of 1992? It should be spring of 1993. The
11 correction has been made.
12 I now give the floor to the Defence, who are preparing to take
14 Mr. Bourgon, you have the floor.
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hogg.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. We've had the pleasure of meeting yesterday, yourself plus my
20 colleague Mr. Dixon from the Defence of Mr. Kubura, and myself from --
21 representing General Hadzihasanovic. But for the record -- and I wish to
22 first of all take this opportunity to thank you for meeting us yesterday.
23 A. Okay. Thank you.
24 Q. Let me begin by introducing myself this morning for the benefit
25 of the transcript. I am accompanied this morning by my colleague, Mrs.
1 Edina Residovic, and my colleague, Mrs. Mirna Milanovic, and my name is
2 Stephane Bourgon, and together we represent General Hadzihasanovic.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Mr. Hogg, I only have a few questions for you this morning, and I
5 would like to begin simply by confirming that you travelled to Central
6 Bosnia probably twice in 1992; that is, one trip in the fall, when this
7 interview was made, and a further trip around Christmas. Would that be
9 A. Yeah. The trip when the interview was made was in -- well, I
10 would describe it as the summer really. It was August. Yeah -- no,
11 that's right. I reappeared there sometime sort of late November, early
12 December, and then stayed for some time.
13 Q. Thank you. And you were further in Central Bosnia probably once
14 in the spring, around April.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And you again were in Central Bosnia around June.
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. And if my notes are right, you were in Bosnia and Herzegovina a
19 fifth time in 1994.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. But at that time, you did not go to Central Bosnia. You went to
22 Sarajevo only.
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Now, can you confirm that during each of these trips, the aim --
25 or your personal aim, being, of course, the correspondent for The Sunday
1 Times, that it was to get a story or stories, of course, which would stand
2 out from what would be published in daily papers?
3 A. I think that's fair, yeah.
4 Q. And the Mujahedin, of course, was such a story that was not a
5 regular in the daily papers.
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And you can also confirm - and this has been covered by my
8 colleague from the Prosecution - that you did travel in conflict zones
9 before and you had prior knowledge of what were Mujahedins.
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. With respect to the first trip in the fall of 1992, I would like
12 to confirm briefly - and we discussed this last night - what was your
13 knowledge in respect of the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I
14 would begin by asking you whether you were aware that in November of 1991
15 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna had proclaimed its existence and
16 had claimed to be a separate, distinct, political, cultural, economic, and
17 territorial whole with aims to establishing closer ties with Croatia?
18 Were you aware of this fact?
19 A. I wasn't aware, I don't think, of the specifics, of the date,
20 November 1991. I was aware of the fact that the Croats of Herzegovina in
21 many, many cases wanted closer links with Croatia.
22 Q. And were you aware that in January of 1992, which is the day --
23 the year of your first travel to Bosnia, in January the SDS had proclaimed
24 the Republic of Serbian People with aspiration to join the Federal
25 Republic of Yugoslavia?
1 A. I would have been aware of that. Once again, not the specifics
2 of the date, but I knew that that had happened in the very recent past,
4 Q. And I take it you were aware that in April of 1992 the Republic
5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised as an independent state.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. And on the same day it was attacked by the Serb forces.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Which occupied the majority of the territory.
10 A. That's right, yeah.
11 Q. Now, moving on quickly. Were you aware that on 8th of April,
12 which is two days later, the Presidency of the HZ HB established the HVO
13 as the supreme defence body of the Croatian people in Bosnia?
14 A. No. No. I mean, I was aware that it existed. I wasn't aware of
15 when it was established.
16 Q. And were you aware that the constitutional court of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina on the 12th May of 1992 declared illegal the Republic of
18 Serbian People?
19 A. If -- yeah, I wasn't specifically aware of that, no. But I -- I
20 mean, it was a conflict in which things were changing on a daily basis
21 almost, so I'm not surprised to read that.
22 Q. And were you aware that on the 14th of September the
23 constitutional court of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared the HZ HB illegal,
24 which of course made the HVO illegal? Were you aware of those facts?
25 A. Frankly not. I would assume that the constitutional court was
1 probably sitting in Sarajevo. And if you're in Central Bosnia, you
2 weren't that aware of what was going on in Central -- sorry, in Sarajevo.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Hogg, the -- moving on with the Army of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, the government army.
5 A. Mm-hm.
6 Q. Were you aware that it is only on the 18th of August, 1992 that
7 the Presidency adopted a decision on the establishment of the army which
8 would be divided into five different corps, on the 18th of August, 1992?
9 A. All I can say is that when I travelled in -- in Central Bosnia,
10 by the time I was there, there was clearly a Bosnian army in evidence. I
11 had been told prior to my arrival that the first resistance, if you like,
12 to Serb aggression had come from a kind of almost like a territorial army,
13 which -- which seemed almost part time. That wasn't the case when I was
14 there. It had -- an army was -- was apparent.
15 Q. So I take it, then, that you are not aware either that on the
16 18th of November is when there was a specific decision to create the
17 3rd Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which included as part of
18 its area of operations both the Travnik and Zenica municipalities?
19 A. Right. No, I wasn't aware of that. I -- in Central Bosnia
20 earlier that year, as I've said, there was clearly a Bosnian army. What
21 its structure was, I had -- I had no idea. Certainly when I went back the
22 following year it was very clear that there was something in Zenica called
23 3rd Corps. I'm not sure that that was clear when I was there in August.
24 I tend to think it wasn't. But there was certainly a Bosnian military
25 structure, whatever its name was.
1 Q. And are you aware, based on your last answer, that from this date
2 on - and I'm referring to the 18th of November, 1992, when the 3rd Corps
3 is officially created - that from that point on and during the months that
4 followed, the other -- or the pre-existing structures, including
5 Territorial Defence units, Municipal Defence Staff, and District Defence
6 Staff, were transformed and became subordinate units which were
7 incorporated into the 3rd Corps during that period?
8 A. I wasn't aware --
9 Q. Were you aware of this fact?
10 A. I wasn't, no. But it makes perfect sense.
11 Q. But you are aware that -- you can confirm that when you were in
12 Bosnia in June there was something called a 3rd Corps and you were aware
13 of that?
14 A. In Bosnia in June of 1993?
15 Q. In June 1993.
16 A. Yes, absolutely.
17 Q. And you cannot say the same for the period of August 1992 when
18 you were there.
19 A. No, I can't. No.
20 Q. Now, during that trip you mentioned something about a retirement
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And about speaking to soldiers.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would I be correct to say that although you spoke to those
1 soldiers and they mentioned to you things about Mujahedin, on that
2 particular occasion you did not see any?
3 A. No, I didn't see any at that -- on that particular occasion at
4 that particular home, no.
5 Q. And would it all be -- would it be correct to say that these
6 soldiers, when they spoke to you, it was clear in their mind that they
7 were fighting for a civil and secular Muslim nation?
8 A. They made that quite clear to me, yeah.
9 Q. If I move on to your second trip, and that is in Easter of 1993.
10 A. Right. The third trip.
11 Q. Sometime in April.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. I would just like to confirm that you travelled to Miletici and
14 that was with BritBat.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And this trip was -- there was no one senior from the British
17 Battalion who accompanied you on this trip.
18 A. I don't have any memory of anybody particularly senior, no.
19 Q. But you are able to confirm -- just hold on there. There appears
20 to be a problem with the transcript.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. BOURGON:
23 Q. Mr. Hogg, just to confirm. I asked a question to you, and I
24 would just like to confirm about those soldiers that you met close to the
25 retirement home.
1 A. In the retirement home, yeah.
2 Q. Or in.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. What was meant by my question - and I think your answer was yes,
5 but just to make it sure - that these soldiers were telling you that they
6 were not fighting for Muslim fundamentalism.
7 A. My -- my notebook conveys the answers that I was given. One of
8 them said to me, "We're fighting for our lives, our homes, and our
9 children," or something to that extent. What -- Islamic republic? That
10 was clearly in response to a question I would have posed, along the lines
11 of, "What are you fighting for here? Are you fighting for an Islamic
12 republic or a secular state?"
13 Q. And your conclusion from this answer was?
14 A. My conclusion from the answer was that they were telling me that
15 they were fighting for a secular state. I didn't necessarily believe what
16 they said, but that's what I was being told.
17 Q. Thank you. And so I come back to the trip in April of 1993. You
18 mentioned the presence of blood that was shown to you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you agree with me that this would indicate that you were
21 there very shortly after the events which took place in that village?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And you confirm that the villagers, when they spoke about who had
24 came into the village, they mentioned to you that those were Mujahedin
25 which did not speak their language.
1 A. Yeah. I'm not sure they used the word "Mujahedin." They might
2 have -- they might have simply said "foreign fighters" or "Arabs," but
3 yeah, clearly it was Mujahedin they were describing.
4 Q. And at that point, Mr. Hogg, I take it that you did not know that
5 shortly before that the bodies of these individuals had been taken away by
6 members of the British Battalion.
7 A. I -- I have no memory of -- of being told that in advance, no.
8 It's possible that I was, but I -- like I say, I have no memory of going
9 to Miletici looking for a massacre. I -- I was from memory very surprised
10 at what we found.
11 Q. If I can move on to your next trip, which was in June of 1993.
12 We spoke last night, and you mentioned to me another happening when you
13 met Mujahedin in what was quite a scary event.
14 A. That's right, yes. I'd been travelling on the back route between
15 Travnik and Zenica with an interpreter, an Australian Croat interpreter,
16 and we came across a large build-up of the Bosnian army in a sort of small
17 town somewhere along that route. And while passing through them, I
18 noticed a car -- I think it had "TV" emblazoned on the side, which is a
19 normal practice for journalists to do, to stick it up with tape or
20 whatever, in the hope of deterring snipers, et cetera.
21 I then somehow became aware that the people in the car were
22 Bosnian, from Bosnian Television. So my interpreter and I chatted to them
23 about the Mujahedin and we -- myself, the interpreter, and the two guys
24 from Bosnian Television then drove up a hill into the sort of -- a similar
25 area to what -- what looked like Miletici to me, in the sort of foothills
1 of quite a rugged mountain range. And we drove -- parked our cars beside
2 the road and walked across this track into the garden of a house that
3 looked out over a wooded valley, and we -- we were looking for the
4 Mujahedin. The Bosnian camera crew were looking for Mujahedin as well.
5 We met a guy who was Bosnian who was clearly in charge of what
6 was going on at the house. There was a -- a young man giving a call to
7 prayer over the side of the cliff. There was a blanket of some kind on
8 the lawn. I think that there were cherries or something like that, a bowl
9 of cherries or something like that in the middle of the blanket, and there
10 were four or five men, who I frankly at that stage took to be Bosnian,
11 sitting with their Kalashnikovs on the ground. And my interpreter misread
12 the situation. I had no desire that the people that we were with should
13 know that I'd interviewed Abdel Aziz. I wasn't going to be something I'd
15 He took it upon himself to tell the chap that we -- who was
16 clearly in command that I was the man who had interviewed Abdel Aziz, at
17 which point the -- the atmosphere changed. He became instantly "hostile"
18 is overstating it, "suspicious" is a better way of describing it. And I
19 remember that suddenly a very large knife was produced and put in the
20 middle of the blanket, which led one of the Bosnian TV men to extract from
21 around his neck under his shirt some kind of -- of Islamic pendant. It
22 might even have been a small locket with copies of the Koran -- with
23 verses of the Koran or something like that. But it was quite clear to me
24 that he had produced this to show all and sundry there that he was a
25 Muslim because he had read the change in atmosphere as rapidly as I had.
1 I immediately denied that I had been the person who had
2 interviewed Abdel Aziz. I said that I'd met him in a hotel in Zagreb and
3 that he had refused to give me an interview, which in fact Abdel Aziz had
4 told me that he had met somebody else in a hotel in Zagreb and that
5 refused to give them an interview.
6 From that point on, my only concern was to get out of there
7 unscathed. I abandoned all hope of trying through this gentleman to reach
8 the Mujahedin. His suspicions were clearly aroused. In talking to him,
9 it was quite clear that mentally he was in a rather odd place. He had
10 returned from Switzerland to join the defence of Bosnia, but he started
11 talking in almost a metaphysical way about the secrets of Islam, and then
12 he started talking in a very threatening way about the existence of fifth
13 columnists who would be killed and they knew and they would be killed. I
14 couldn't quite work out whether he was threatening me at that time and
15 describing me as me a fifth columnist or whether he was talking more
17 As I said, I had only one aim at that precise moment and that was
18 to get into the Lada Niva and leave. And so I-- I accelerated matters,
19 simply thanking him for all his help and suggesting that it was time that
20 we got back to Travnik or wherever it was. We were staying in Vitez
21 actually at that particular time. So we left without incident, but yes,
22 it was unnerving.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hogg.
24 Now, I'd just like to confirm with you that in -- also in June,
25 during that trip, following this scare, you also had a number of people
1 that you met in Central Bosnia, including General Siber, the deputy
2 commander of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 A. I met General Siber in the street in Zenica, yes.
4 Q. And would I be fair to say that you published a story in The
5 Sunday Times on the Sunday, 27th of June, 1993?
6 A. That's right.
7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
8 present this article. I have a sufficient number of copies for everybody
9 in the courtroom.
10 Q. [In English] Mr. Hogg, I would ask you to look at this article
11 and to first go to confirm that this is indeed the paper you wrote, which
12 was published on 27th of June, 1993.
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Now, if the article was published on the 27th of June, 1993, this
15 would mean that the -- most of the material was gathered in the previous
16 two weeks. I think you mentioned to me last night between the 15th and
17 25th approximately.
18 A. That's right. What I would say though is the inclusion of the
19 material from Miletici -- Miletici was clearly rather earlier. It's
20 depressing to say, but one massacre at that time didn't make a story. And
21 so I hadn't used the material that I had picked up in Miletici up until
22 that period. But when doing a story, you know, two to three months later
23 about Mujahedin atrocities, if you like, then it -- it seemed to me
24 perfectly acceptable to include the material from Miletici.
25 Q. And if you go down just on this paper at the end -- towards the
1 end, there is a paragraph which starts with: "In the hills high Guca
3 A. That's right. This is the chap I've just been describing meeting
5 Q. That's the chap. And that is the event you were referring to.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Who produced the big knife.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And who said that he was, in terms of, "I am the Hekmatyar of
10 this area."
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And: "I only answer to Allah."
13 A. Yeah.
14 MR. BOURGON: I'd just like -- [Interpretation] Mr. President, I
15 should like to tender the article which has been authenticated by the
16 witness, written by him, following the interview that he conducted himself
17 on the ground, and he recognised a particular evident -- a particular
18 event, so I would like to request that this article be admitted into
19 evidence. I have only two more small questions to ask this witness, and
20 then I've finished.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, regarding this
22 article, which is in the public domain --
23 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 Mr. Registrar, can we have an exhibit number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH181.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 10.30. We're going to
3 have the break now, and we will resume after that.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am going to give the floor to
7 Mr. Bourgon, whom I interrupted just before the break.
8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. [In English] Sir, I have two questions left for you, the first
10 one being whether you could confirm that you did not know the commander of
11 the 3rd Corps during your travel in 1993 in Bosnia, General
13 A. I certainly have no memory of meeting the general, no.
14 Q. And you --
15 A. It's possible I did, but I have no memory of it.
16 Q. And you did not know either, Mr. Hogg, the deputy commander of
17 the 3rd Corps, Mr. Merdan, did you?
18 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hogg.
20 MR. BOURGON: I have no further questions for this witness.
21 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, the cross-examination
22 is finished on the part of the Defence for General Hadzihasanovic.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the other
24 Defence team whether they have any questions within the scope of their
1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
2 do not have any questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, do they have
4 any re-examination according to the procedure in this courtroom?
5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no questions in re-examination,
6 Mr. President. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Hogg, I have a number of
8 questions to ask you about the interview that you had with Mr. Aziz and
9 about the period when you were in Miletici.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As regards the interview that
12 you had with Mr. Aziz, you have told us that you had that interview in
13 order to publish an article in The Sunday Times. Can you confirm that?
14 A. That's right. Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you said that it was in
16 August that you had this interview, the transcript that we showed to you,
17 the transcript of the audiotape, a few weeks after the interview did you
18 write the article based on this interview?
19 A. I wrote the article --
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was this article finally
21 published in the newspapers?
22 A. I wrote the article. The interview took place on the Thursday,
23 and from memory I think that was August, the 27th. I wrote the article on
24 the Friday, as soon as I got back to Split, and it was published the
25 following Sunday, in The Sunday Times.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the article was published,
2 and this article, was it accompanied by any photos? You have told us in
3 response to the Prosecution's question that there was a photographer with
4 you. Did he take any photos during the interview in the month of August?
5 I'm not talking about Miletici and what happened after that.
6 A. Yes. The photographer about two-thirds of the way through the
7 interview, I raised the question of pictures, and after some negotiation
8 Abdel Aziz allowed some photos to be taken of him. He had reservations.
9 He thought that it was un-Islamic. But the photographs were taken and
10 they appeared the following Sunday on the front page of The Sunday Times,
11 one picture of him.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution could also
13 provide us with the photo and the article.
14 So you confirm that this was published indeed.
15 A. Yes, indeed.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before gaining access to this
17 Mujahedin, Aziz, you told us that you had obtained from the army an
18 authorisation, a written authorisation, which allowed you to gain access
19 to this Mujahedin. According to your memory, how was this authorisation
20 drafted? What did it look like? Can you give us any characteristics of
21 this written authorisation? You may not recall. It was a long time ago.
22 But if you can, can you describe this authorisation.
23 A. It was a small white piece of paper. I can't be precise. My
24 understanding is that it was typewritten; but I can't remember more about
25 it than that, I'm afraid.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You travelled through a number
2 of countries, and you had contacts with a lot of officials. Do you
3 remember whether this authorisation had a stamp? Because as you know, in
4 any army there are a lot of stamps used. So was there a seal, a stamp of
5 any sort on that authorisation? Do you remember whether there was a
7 A. I'm afraid I don't. The authorisation looked official. It -- I
8 would presume there was a stamp on it, but I have no specific memory of
9 that. Certainly I would have inspected it to see whether it looked
10 convincing, and certainly it looked convincing enough for me to take it to
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were with an interpreter,
13 with a photographer. There was yourself, and you had this authorisation,
14 and you were going to meet with this Mujahedin. The authorisation was
15 supposed to be shown to whom? Who was supposed to check it and see
16 whether it was authentic?
17 A. Abdel Aziz.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The authorisation, was it in
19 B/C/S language? I suppose it was.
20 A. I presume it was.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Aziz, did he speak or
22 understand B/C/S?
23 A. No, he didn't. From memory, I think he showed it to somebody as
24 I showed it to him, but he didn't -- he didn't seem to speak B/C/S, no.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the person to whom he showed
1 it, I suppose said, "It's okay. It's valid." Was that the case?
2 A. I presume so, yeah. I can't imagine that he would have not
3 checked the validity of the document with somebody who spoke the language.
4 I mean very quickly, somebody standing beside him, something like that.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are a journalist who have
6 met with the representatives of Hezbollah. You were in Lebanon. You were
7 in Afghanistan. You were in Iran and Iraq. You know the area. You know
8 that the Mujahedins are very important. Mr. Aziz, according to you, where
9 did he come from? From which country? From which state?
10 A. He wouldn't tell me. I initially thought it --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you do have experience.
12 Could you not tell?
13 A. Physically his appearance was that of a typical Mujahedin
14 fighting in Afghanistan. His English was good. I initially thought that
15 he was probably of Pakistani origin. I subsequently thought he was more
16 likely to be of Saudi Arabian origin.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have given us a detail very
18 quickly, and you said that he had a beard and coloured hair, and you said
19 that it was a sign that he was ready to die. According to you, this a
20 characteristic that shows that he was ready to go into battle and die in
21 the battle. Is that what you said?
22 A. Yes, it is. I -- this was something I'd learnt in Afghanistan
23 was that I don't think all Mujahedin do it but some, if they're
24 prepared -- prepared to die, want to look their best to meet Allah.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The article that the Defence
1 has presented which arose from that interview - and I quote from the
2 memory - you said in that article, which was based on the interview, that
3 Mr. Aziz was the head of the Mujahedin troops in Bosnia. Why did you
4 write that?
5 A. He told me that. Sorry, he told me that. And I think the words
6 he used in fact was -- I'm not certain. I haven't got the transcript in
7 front of me. It was along the lines of, "I'm president."
8 I had no -- had I not met him in the circumstances in which I had
9 met him, surrounded by armed guards with -- clearly with material
10 resources at his disposal, in the forms of weapons and in the form of
11 4 by 4s, I wouldn't necessarily have given him the credence which I did
12 give him, because there was no doubt in my mind - and there is still no
13 doubt - that he was who he said he was. He was -- the impression I have
14 at this -- you know, from this distance is that he probably was the man
15 who arrived with the money. I think that -- that he was not overstating
16 his importance.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The name Aziz is the name that
18 he gave you.
19 A. Absolutely.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could he have used a false name
21 and could it be the case that his real name was different?
22 A. Yes, it could. Abdel Aziz is a very, very common name in the
23 Middle East, dating back to the time of the prophet, as I understand it.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How old was he, according to
25 you? In which age bracket would you place him?
1 A. I'd place him late -- mid to late 30s. Possibly a little older,
2 but not -- not very much.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During the interview, you
4 touched upon the question of soldiers, of troops. Again I quote from the
5 memory. Did he indicate to you that -- that they were not soldiers, that
6 they are in a holy war? Were they a religious army? Were they proper
7 soldiers? What was their characteristics? How would you characterise
8 these soldiers?
9 A. They were young men who clearly enjoyed armed struggle. They
10 were also young men who had decided to fight for Islam. They therefore
11 were no different, frankly, than other Mujahedin that I had met in
12 Afghanistan. The similarities were -- were total.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now onto the second topic,
14 which is Miletici. When you returned to Bosnia in April, did you know
15 that the 3rd Corps, which had the responsibility in Zenica, the area of
16 whose responsibility was in Zenica, did they have a press centre or did
17 they have a liaison officer with the media? Were you aware of that?
18 A. Yes, I was. I'm not --
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have contacts with the
20 press officer? Because in every modern army it is very important to have
21 a press officer and a service that has contacts with the media. Did you
22 have any contacts with the press officer of the 3rd Corps?
23 A. I -- I certainly did in 1993. I can't be precise as to whether I
24 did in April of 1993, because I was only in Central Bosnia for a matter of
25 days before we left immediately to go to Mostar. I certainly have a
1 memory of making numerous trips to the headquarters of -- of 3rd Brigade
2 in Zenica, certainly later in -- in the summer, when I went back in June.
3 I -- it was almost a daily occurrence, because one was seeking permission
4 to visit different enclaves, and one was -- one was endeavouring to find
5 out what was going on. So yes, it was a regular trip that I made from
6 Vitez to Zenica.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have told us that when you
8 went to Miletici you went there to write a story. You were a journalist
9 who was attached to the BritBat and you were in an armoured vehicle -- in
10 their armoured vehicle.
11 A. Yes. I wasn't attached to BritBat. It was a very loose
12 arrangement in those days where if you were working in Central Bosnia, one
13 of the places you were likely to get most information was from the press
14 information officers of the British Army at Vitez. As a result, most of
15 us stayed close by to pick up news quickly and also to take advantage to
16 have trips that they were offering.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Miletici, who were others who
18 represented international media in addition to yourself?
19 A. There were -- there were several. The two that I know: There
20 was Corinne Dufka, who was a Reuters photographer; and there was ABC
21 Television news as well. I'm not sure of the reporter's name. Those were
22 the only two -- there was an American freelance journalist. I'm slightly
23 unsure of his name. He was there as well. In fact, I think he was my
24 interpreter, because he spoke B/C/S. There would have been others as
25 well, but I have no memory of them.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you wanted to show what
2 BritBat was doing, and when you arrived in Miletici you didn't know what
3 had happened there. Is that what you have told us in your testimony?
4 A. I wasn't that concerned to show what BritBat was doing. It
5 wasn't part of a sort of an army PR exercise. They had -- they on a daily
6 basis were trying to explore the region to try to find out where there
7 were problems, and as a result offered a trip -- I was very interested in
8 going into the hinterland, as it were, to see what was going on. I -- as
9 I said earlier, I have no -- I don't remember being told that there had
10 been a massacre in Miletici before I got into the vehicle or while I was
11 in the vehicle. I -- I simply -- I think we -- my memory is that we were
12 going to look at a village where we heard that there had been a problem,
13 but I wasn't expecting what we found there.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have told us that you
15 discovered to your surprise what had happened. You were taken by
16 surprise. And you have also explained the -- that the photographer who
17 was there, you had discovered a bowl full of blood. Did the photographer
18 take any photos of this bowl full of blood that you discovered, to your
20 A. I have no doubt that pictures were taken of that bowl of blood.
21 I have no doubt that television coverage was also shot. I, some years
22 ago, did discuss the question of pictures with the photographer, and she
23 has led a very peripatetic life, and I'm not sure she was -- from memory,
24 she wasn't able to put her hands on them.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, you didn't
1 write an article on that massacre? You didn't write about what you had
2 seen? Did you write an article about that, about this particular
4 A. No, I didn't. And there are two reasons for that: As I said
5 before the break, yes, I did include details of this incident in an
6 article that I wrote several months later. What happened when -- when we
7 went to Miletici is very soon afterwards - I'm talking about within a day
8 or so - Mostar suddenly erupted into -- into fierce fighting. And so
9 myself, the photographer I've just mentioned from Reuters and virtually
10 all -- many of the press people from Vitez pulled out immediately to go
11 down to Mostar. And so it was overtaken by events, and I appreciate that
12 in the cold light of day it was an atrocity. At that time one atrocity
13 didn't necessarily guarantee a story in the newspaper. There had been so
14 many atrocities.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that there was
16 a chain of events and that Mostar was more important and that it
17 monopolised your attention as well as the attention of the media.
18 A. That's correct.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this explains why the
20 incident in Miletici was no so well covered.
21 I'm moving on to another point. You have told us that in June
22 you returned and you met with a Mujahedin who had come from Switzerland
23 apparently and that he threatened you and that you were very worried and
24 that's why you left as fast as you could.
25 You also told us that you were accompanied by a team of Bosnian
1 Television. Where were they based, this team of -- of Bosnian Television?
2 A. I -- I presume they were based in Zenica.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was that a civilian television
4 station or a military television station?
5 A. It was -- it was a television station which had the backing of
6 the Bosnian government. It was -- all sides in that conflict recognised
7 the propaganda importance of television. To characterise it as a military
8 television station is -- is probably not inaccurate, inasmuch as clearly
9 it had the support of the military. They -- but they seemed to me to be
10 ordinary sort of media people, as opposed to serving soldiers.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you talk with them? Did
12 you exchange any professional experiences with them? Did you talk to the
13 journalists who were affiliated with this television?
14 A. Yes. They would have been -- well, I mean, I can't remember how
15 the introduction was effected, but there would have been a degree -- there
16 would have been a sort of cordial conversation about, "What have you seen?
17 What have you seen?" You know, comparing -- comparing notes to see
18 where -- you know, where to go for the next story, if you like. I can't
19 remember if they were already searching for the Mujahedin. I certainly
20 was at that particular time.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When they were with you, how
22 had they arrived? Were they there by accident? Who was it who organised
23 their being there? I'm talking about this Bosnian Television. How did
24 they get to be there?
25 A. The impression I had was they were doing what everybody else was
1 doing, which was covering that -- that area. Simply trying to find
2 stories and news themselves. And you only do that in -- in that kind of
3 area by getting in your car and really going to look for it, going to
4 front lines, trying to talk to as many people as you can to build up a
5 picture. I -- I think they were on a trolling expedition, like we were.
6 Trolling, as in the ship trolling.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they were in one vehicle and
8 you were in another; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And was there any indication on
11 your vehicle that you were from the TV or the press, or was it an ordinary
12 vehicle? Was it marked in any way, the one you were in?
13 A. I'm sure it would have been. I'm sure it would have been marked
14 with large red -- large black letters "TV" on both sides and probably on
15 the bonnet as well. I wouldn't really have driven an unmarked car there
16 at that time.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when the atmosphere became
18 threatening, you explained that one of the journalists pulled out of his
19 sweater papers showing that he, too, was a Muslim. Did you have the
20 feeling that he was really afraid or that he didn't really expect that
21 kind of reaction?
22 A. It wasn't papers that he pulled out of his sweater. What he
23 pulled was -- he wore some kind of talisman or something like that around
24 his neck which I think was a pendant of some kind of -- it was Islamic,
1 When he produced that, I knew that he was finding the atmosphere
2 as threatening as I was. And I had really -- I had been in a sense
3 relying on the fact that I was with Bosnian Television to smooth any --
4 over any difficulties with -- with whoever we met on this particular
5 occasion. So when I saw that he was nervous, I got even more nervous.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you yourself said that you
7 were with a Bosnian team, so it was a story which had a certain frame, a
8 certain context. You were not on your own. You were not an alone
9 reporter, because you were accompanied by a team from Bosnian Television.
10 But who led you there? Was it them or was it on the basis of information
11 that you yourself had?
12 A. I think it was on the basis of information that they had gleaned
13 from somewhere, but I don't think that they had had that information for
14 very long. It could have been, you know, sort of in the minutes before we
15 arrived or something like that, that they could have received directions.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the Defence have any
20 additional questions for the witness?
21 Mr. Bourgon.
22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just one
23 point to clear up with this witness.
24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:
25 Q. Mr. Hogg, can you please confirm that when it was time to get
1 that paper - I'm talking about the 1992 trip.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. You did not go inside that building.
4 A. I didn't go inside that building, no.
5 Q. And --
6 A. Not that night. I'd been in the building earlier during the day
7 but not that night, no.
8 Q. Not that night.
9 A. No.
10 Q. And you could not, from where you were, waiting for someone, see
11 what was going on inside the building.
12 A. No, I couldn't.
13 Q. And you sent your female interpreter to go inside the building
14 and fetch the authorisation.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And you felt it was more likely that she could obtain that piece
17 of paper.
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Because she spoke the language.
20 A. She spoke the language.
21 Q. And she wasn't a foreign media person.
22 A. Exactly that.
23 Q. And also because she was nice looking and charming.
24 A. That's right. I mean, she -- she was somebody who -- you know,
25 at checkpoints she was always extremely good and she was more than just an
1 interpreter. She was sort of a fixer, if you like. So I had every
2 confidence that if anybody could do it, she could.
3 Q. So she could tell a good story to get what she wanted, whether at
4 a checkpoint or inside that building.
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. And you don't know exactly the person to whom she spoke inside.
7 A. No. I probably did ask her that evening, but I don't remember
8 who she said, I'm afraid.
9 Q. And you don't know exactly what story she pulled to get the
11 A. I would have -- I can't imagine she would have done anything than
12 just tell the truth that, we'd been to Mehurici, the guy had said yes,
13 dependent on permission from the Bosnian army.
14 Q. You don't know.
15 A. I don't know, no.
16 Q. And today you don't have this piece of paper.
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. And you acknowledged a little earlier that it was written in
19 Bosnian most likely.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that you don't remember exactly what was on the paper.
22 A. I'm afraid I don't, no.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 A. Okay.
25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] No further questions,
1 Mr. President.
2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
3 don't have any questions either.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I have just one area that I'd like to
6 ask the witness about.
7 Further examination by Mr. Mundis:
8 Q. Mr. Hogg, in response to a question from the Presiding Judge, you
9 told us that it was possible that Abdel Aziz went by other name or names.
10 A. That's right, yeah.
11 Q. Throughout these proceedings as well, we've been using a certain
12 spelling of his name.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would that, to your knowledge, be the only way to spell that name
15 or to transliterate that name from Arabic or any other language?
16 A. I suppose you could -- you could spell Abdel Abdul, A-b-d-u-l.
17 But I would -- the usual spelling is as it is, A-b-d-e-l A-z-i-z. The
18 reason I said that it's possible he went by other names is that I was
19 familiar with -- Abdel Aziz is a name with religious connotations, as I
20 understand it, and I was familiar with the fact that the Mujahedin
21 frequently chose "nom de guerre" and it wouldn't surprise me to know that
22 his name was something completely different than that.
23 Q. Can you tell us, if you know -- you've said Abdel Aziz has
24 religious connotations. Are you familiar, based with your experience in
25 the Middle East, with what those religious connotations are?
1 A. No. I know that a person in Mohammed's proximity was called
2 Abdel Aziz, but I can't remember his precise relation to the prophet.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hogg.
4 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Hogg, your examination is
6 over. We wish to thank you for coming to The Hague to testify. It's not
7 every day that an ex-journalist testifies. You have answered questions
8 put to you both by the Prosecution and the Defence and the Judges. We
9 wish to thank you for this, and we wish you a safe journey home and best
10 wishes in your current career.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber needs to render a
14 decision regarding the request for the fighters' manual. The problem is
15 that we still don't have the transcript, and we need to have the
16 transcript to have the exact references that have been authenticated by
17 yesterday's witness. So only when we have the transcript of clearly
18 specified paragraphs of those instructions that we can render a ruling,
19 and this is a verification that the Chamber needs to make before asking
20 the registrar to give us an exhibit number; that is, the paragraphs
21 authenticated by the witness. So this is something that the Chamber will
22 inform you of shortly.
23 Mr. Mundis, as we still have some time left, what can you tell us
24 regarding the schedule for next week?
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask that we go into private
1 session in order to do that.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private
3 session, please.
4 [Private session]
12 Page 7882 redacted, private session
12 Page 7883 redacted, private session
12 Page 7884 redacted, private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, perhaps in the
7 courtroom there should be a red lamp facing the Judges so when it is on we
8 are in private session and when it's green, then we're in open session,
9 like they have on television.
10 Mr. Bourgon.
11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Mr. President, with the permission of the Chamber, I should like
13 to address the question linked to Rule 68. When we had the witness
14 yesterday here, a witness who testified under the pseudonym ZO, I tried to
15 tender a document which has been now tendered as DH118. I told the
16 Chamber that this exhibit is -- comes under Rule 68. In other words, it
17 is an exculpatory document, and it may call in question the credibility of
18 the evidence of the Prosecution.
19 We are of the opinion that Exhibit 178 falls into that category.
20 There's another exhibit, a letter that was sent by the president
21 of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,
22 addressed to the army commander, one of the letters which fits into the
23 chain of events that occurred following the letter written by the Special
24 Rapporteur to the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, these two
25 exhibits were found by the Defence on the electronic devices which we now
1 have access to. And we feel that they come under Rule 68. The search for
2 these documents was not too complicated. We are still in the initial
3 stages of using this system. We just use keywords to search the files,
4 and that is how we found this document.
5 I don't wish to dwell too long on this matter. I just wish to
6 say that the disclosure of evidence coming under Rule 68 and the
7 importance of this Rule was recalled and confirmed recently by the Appeals
8 Chamber in the Krstic case.
9 As the Chamber knows, we have a new Rule added to the Rules -
10 that is, 68 bis - which allows the Chamber to take measures when a party
11 does not fulfil its obligations with respect to the disclosure as it is
12 duty-bound to do. I have already had contact with my colleagues before
13 even mentioning this matter to the Chamber, and I'm sure that my
14 colleagues will do everything they can to carry out the proper search so
15 that all evidence coming under Rule 68 be disclosed to us.
16 I also take advantage of the opportunity to mention that there is
17 now a new case before the International Tribunal, a case implying [as
18 interpreted] six Bosnian Croat suspects, and who were implicated in the
19 chain of command of the Bosnian Croats. We recently filed a motion to
20 have access to those documents, the documents in support of the
21 indictment. However, we understand that if all those documents come under
22 Rule 68, then the Prosecution has probably already undertaken to evaluate
23 those documents and see which of them come under Rule 68.
24 Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to
1 Mr. Mundis, but at this stage you have told us something that we haven't
2 in fact formally been given a motion, but it is simply that the Defence
3 would like the Prosecution to serve them all documents under Rule 68, that
4 is, all exculpatory documents. That is the gist of your observation.
5 You're telling us that regarding these exculpatory documents you
6 found that in the electronic system certain documents - particularly
7 DH178, and there are others, a letter, for example - which in your opinion
8 represent exculpatory material. So that is how you see things.
9 The Prosecution is going to respond to this, but I must recall
10 that originally the Prosecution did disclose to the Defence copies of all
11 documents that they had in their possession. Then came the second stage,
12 when new documents were provided which were not at the material level
13 photocopied, and you were told consult the electronic system and you'll
14 find everything there. And then you said, "We are not going to look
15 through thousands of pages and we really have a problem there." And it's
16 quite possible that there might be a problem, but in my own opinion I feel
17 that to the extent to which the Prosecution gives to the Defence initially
18 copies of all documents in their possession and then later on through the
19 electronic system they provide you access to the totality of documents in
20 their possession, including exculpatory documents, then it is fulfilling
21 its obligation.
22 The only question is how to make a distinction between inculpatory
23 and exculpatory documents. A document may, from the point of view of one
24 party, be considered as inculpatory when examining it, and then several
25 months later that same document may be seen as being exculpatory. So
1 those are the problems that you have now raised.
2 As for another aspect - but I'm going to give the floor to
3 Mr. Mundis in a moment - you are telling us that you have contacted a
4 Chamber with respect to a current case and a decision is going to be made
5 by the Chamber. The Prosecution through their filings and submissions -
6 and I am citing from memory - that it is up to the Defence to get in touch
7 with the Prosecution to have those documents provided to them, because the
8 Prosecution is one single entity; they are not separate entities.
9 Therefore, the Prosecution should be viewed in the broader sense,
10 as the OTP. And if the Defence feels that certain documents should be
11 disclosed to them, then it is up to them to contact the Prosecution and
12 they will do so. But again, it seems to me from the filings of the
13 Prosecution that their position is that if there is any difficulty, then
14 the Chamber should be contacted.
15 I don't know exactly what the position of the Prosecution is with
16 respect to this, but it is also noted that following the Defence thesis,
17 that is, that the Defence can have access to thousands and millions of
18 documents in the possession of the Prosecution, that would also be
19 unreasonable. One has to know which documents, what is their relevance,
20 what is the interest of those documents for the Defence.
21 So the Defence must elaborate why they need to have documents
22 disclosed to them which are part of another case. They have to justify
23 the relevance, et cetera.
24 So regarding the second point, this is ongoing. A decision will
25 be made. And if necessary, you will let us know in due course.
1 Mr. Mundis, do you wish to take the floor again?
2 MR. MUNDIS: Very briefly, Mr. President.
3 With respect to the second point, I'm not going to make any
4 comments in light of the fact that I don't have the Prosecution pleadings
5 in front of me and I don't want to mischaracterise them in any way, but
6 those filings are a matter of -- of record.
7 With respect to the first point, Mr. President, you -- our view
8 is that you are correct in stating the law. We've provided this material
9 in a searchable electronic form so that the Defence is able to conduct its
10 own searches electronically with respect to material that they might feel
11 is useful to the Defence.
12 I -- I should also state, Mr. President, that notwithstanding the
13 EDS, or electronic disclosure suite, the Prosecution continues to conduct
14 reasonable and focussed - and I stress the word "focussed" - searches
15 pursuant to Rule 68 in order to fulfil our obligations independently of
16 the fact that the Defence has also been entitled or is in receipt of this
17 material electronically. So we view our obligation as being to give them
18 currently complete searchable electronic documents, but at the same time
19 to conduct our own searches under Rule 68. The Prosecution takes this
20 obligation very, very seriously. And I can inform the Chamber and the
21 Defence that we are currently in the process of reviewing yet another
22 large batch of materials which our Rule 68 searches have generated and
23 which we are hoping to get into the hands of the Defence in hard copy,
24 document, paper form, as quickly as possible.
25 We are aware that our Rule 68 obligation continues throughout the
1 trial, throughout the appeal stage, and even longer than that, and we take
2 this obligation very, very seriously, Mr. President.
3 Thank you very much.
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should just like
5 to make a brief remark. There's a distinction, Mr. President, to be made
6 between different rules of the Rules of Procedure regarding disclosure.
7 The point I am raising this morning has to do only with Rule 68 of the
8 Rules. It is quite different from the obligations of the Prosecution
9 pursuant to Rule 66, that is, disclosure during the pre-trial stage, and
10 then it also differs from the obligations of the Prosecution under Rule
11 65 ter, that is, all the documents that were disclosed to us for this
12 trial. These are two provisions or two Rules that differ completely from
13 Rule 68, which calls for the disclosure of exculpatory material, which
14 means that the Prosecution needs to review all documents in its
15 possession, not only in this case but all the documents, and to disclose
16 them to us, not to give us access to them but to communicate to us all
17 those exculpatory documents.
18 We are quite aware that the Prosecution may consider a document
19 not to be exculpatory and then it isn't disclosed to us. We know that.
20 But when it is exculpatory, that it can exculpate the accused, then we
21 feel it is the obligation of the Prosecution to disclose that document to
23 But as the Chamber has explained very well, it is not a motion at
24 this stage; it is a very important matter for the Defence, and we thought
25 it was worthwhile to address it in the Chamber. We are in contact with
1 the Prosecution, and we are quite assured that they will disclose all the
2 documents that come under this Rule.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think that you have perfectly
4 covered the issue.
5 The Chamber just notes that the Prosecution is in the process of
6 looking at this close up and examining document by document that are to be
7 found in the electronic system, and when they find that there are
8 documents that can be considered exculpatory, they will give them to you.
9 There's no problem there. But it seems to me that this is a solution that
10 must be found by dialogue between you, between the parties, outside the
11 Chamber. The Chamber should be informed only in the event of
12 insurmountable difficulties, but normally this should be regulated between
14 Another even more interesting question that you have raised is to
15 see whether the Prosecution can provide to the Defence documents that are
16 in another case that is ongoing, which would mean that the Prosecution has
17 an overall view of all the cases which allows it to say, "This document X
18 in case Y may affect case Z." That is a question that you are raising.
19 Are there any other matters to be addressed?
20 Madam Benjamin, you don't wish to say anything?
21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Not at this time, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. For once when we
23 have some time left --
24 I wish to thank you. As you know, the hearing for next week will
25 start at 2.15. So we will meet again on Monday afternoon. Thank you.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.05 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of
3 May, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.