1 Monday, 24 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
12 Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the Prosecution,
13 Ms. Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Andres
14 Vatter. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis. And
16 could we have the appearances for the Defence.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good
18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina
19 Residovic, counsel, and Muriel Cauvin, my legal assistant. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And could we have
21 the appearances for the other Defence team.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
24 Mulalic, our legal assistant.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber
1 would like to greet everyone present, members of the Prosecution, Defence
2 counsel, the accused, as well as everyone else present in this courtroom,
3 including the interpreters.
4 We have a witness today, but before we call the witness into the
5 courtroom, I would like to provide you with the following information.
6 The legal officer forwarded to the Prosecution on the 28th of -- 24th of
7 May a list of documents which are either missing or incomplete or are
8 illegible or are documents for which we have no translations, or
9 documents in which translation issues have appeared. The Prosecution has
10 informed us of the procedure they would follow following what the Trial
11 Chamber said. They will do so by contacting the Chamber's legal officer.
12 As far as these documents are concerned, I would like to say the
13 following: With regard to Articles 12 and 14 of the Statute, the
14 President of the Chamber guides the work of the Chamber. This work
15 includes naturally all technical issues which might arise, and in
16 particular issues that concern documents when they are presented,
17 documents that might be tendered as evidence. As you know, 90(F) -- Rule
18 90(F) provides that the Trial Chamber can control the way in which the
19 evidence is presented in order to ensure that the presentation of the
20 evidence is efficient. As the parties are well aware, the Prosecution
21 under Rule 66 must provide the Defence with the documents attached to the
22 confirmed indictment. The Defence -- when the Defence requests this, the
23 Prosecution must enable them to consult books and documents, as well as
24 photographs, and items that they have in possession. And further to
25 Rule 68 of the Rules, the Prosecution must provide the Defence with all
1 information that might be exculpatory evidence. The Rules also provide -
2 namely, Rule 68(B) - that the Prosecution should provide the Defence in
3 an electronic form with a total -- with the totality of the documents
4 that they have in their possession. As a result, all the documents that
5 the Prosecution has can under certain conditions be provided to the
6 Defence. That's the spirit and the text itself of the Rule.
7 Last Friday, on the basis of this provision I personally stated
8 that it was irritating that the article concerning the audiotape was not
9 provided. In order to ensure that there is no misunderstanding
10 concerning this term, the Petit Robert, the French dictionary, says the
11 following about the term "facheux" or "irritating". It gives rise to
12 certain inconveniences or is prejudicial. The Collins-Robert dictionary
13 says the following about the term facheux. It says it is irritating.
14 I raise this issue with regard to an answer provided by a
15 witness. A witness said that he drafted an article on the basis of this
16 audiotape. The Defence provided another article dated the 27th of June,
17 1993, DH181 is the number of the exhibit. But the article provided by
18 the Defence wasn't the article that was produced after this audiotape.
19 The Trial Chamber and naturally its President can under Rule 98 order
20 that additional evidence be presented. At this point in time, the Trial
21 Chamber has not deliberated to determine whether this press article
22 should at a subsequent date be presented pursuant to Rule 98. I wanted
23 to provide you with this information which I think should be useful for
25 We have a witness scheduled for today, Mr. Mundis. Could you
1 inform us of whether the witness is available for the Trial Chamber.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the witness Dieter Schellschmidt is
3 in fact available, and his evidence will be led by my colleague,
4 Ms. Benjamin, this afternoon.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will ask the
6 usher to call the witness into the courtroom.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would like to
9 check that you are receiving the interpretation of what I am saying. Are
10 you receiving the interpretation into a language that you can understand,
11 either French or English? If so, please say so.
12 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been called here as a
14 witness for the Prosecution. You will have to take the solemn
15 declaration, but before you do so, I have to ask you your name. Could
16 you first tell me your first and last names and your date of birth.
17 THE WITNESS: My name is Dieter Schellschmidt. I am born on the
18 20th of May, 1935 in Forst, Brandenburg, Germany.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I assume your nationality is
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, my nationality is German.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current position?
23 THE WITNESS: I'm a retired army officer. My last rank was
24 lieutenant colonel. And I'm now acting as a manager of a
25 non-governmental organisation in Germany.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what position did you
2 hold and what duties did you perform in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
3 THE WITNESS: In 1993, I was a member of the ECMM, the European
4 Community Monitoring Mission, on a six-month contract from February to
5 end of August in 1993.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
7 before an international or national court with regard to the events in
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1993?
9 THE WITNESS: No, never.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now ask the
11 usher to show you the solemn declaration that I would like you to read
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 WITNESS: DIETER SCHELLSCHMIDT
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I have already said, you've
19 been called here to testify about the events that took place in 1993 in
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina and also about what happened at the beginning of
21 1994. You will first have to answer questions that will be put to you by
22 the Prosecution, who are to your right. You have already had the
23 opportunity of meeting them.
24 After they have completed their examination-in-chief, you will
25 have to answer the questions put to you by the Defence; they are to your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 left. This stage is what we call the cross-examination. The purpose of
2 the questions put to you by the Defence is to check the credibility of
3 what you say and also to obtain any necessary information, any
4 information that is relevant to the context within which these events
5 took place. Once this stage has been completed, the Prosecution may take
6 the floor again to conduct their re-examination.
7 And once these three stages have been completed, the three Judges
8 sitting before you may also ask you questions. Each Judge may ask you
9 questions. We will listen to your answers, and the purpose of our
10 questions is to obtain additional information or to clarify some of the
11 answers you have provided to the parties, or if a Judge thinks that there
12 is a matters that obscure, in such a case the Judge may also ask you a
14 Once the Judges have asked your their questions and once you have
15 answered their questions, the Defence has the right to ask you further
16 questions, as well as the Prosecution. So roughly speaking, this is the
17 procedure that will be followed here.
18 To the extent that it is possible, try to provide complete and
19 concise answers to the questions. It's true that these events took place
20 over ten years ago, and if your memory is deficient, be frank and tell us
21 that that is the case.
22 The procedure that we follow here is on the whole an oral
23 procedure, and sometimes it is supported by written evidence, so you
24 might also be shown documents, but this is for the parties to decide, and
25 this is why your answers are so important. If you encounter any
1 difficulties, do let us know, and if you don't understand a question or
2 if a question seems too complicated to you, ask the person putting the
3 question to rephrase it in simple terms.
4 I will now give the floor to the Prosecution. I don't know who
5 will be conducting the examination-in-chief. Perhaps Ms. Benjamin. So
6 if it is Ms. Benjamin who will be conducting the examination-in-chief,
7 she may now take the floor.
8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good
9 afternoon, Your Honours. Thank you.
10 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:
11 Q. Colonel, you have already indicated to the Trial Chamber your
12 rank, but I would like you now to please briefly describe for the Trial
13 Chamber your career and your experience and qualifications, please.
14 A. Actually, I joined the German Armed Forces in April 1957 as an
15 officer candidate. My arm at this time was artillery. I was
16 commissioned in 1959. At that time, I had already changed branches from
17 artillery to maintenance corps. My first position was a platoon
18 commander in that corps.
19 In 1961, I signed up for a course at the academy of machinery of
20 the German Armed Forces in Darmstadt, was accepted, and studied there for
21 four years. I graduated in 1965 as a mechanical engineer.
22 After that, I continued my education for one year in the United
23 States at the US Army missile and ammunition school and returned to
24 Germany in mid-July 1966, taking up a position again as platoon leader.
25 Later on I became company commander, deputy commander of a maintenance
1 battalion, and finally ended the -- my field career as a battalion
2 commander. I was promoted lieutenant colonel in 1976. The same year, I
3 was transferred to the general army officer in Koln, where I took several
4 positions in training, education, organisation, and my last position was
5 head of the unit for international arms cooperation. I was retired in
6 end of September 1992 in the rank of lieutenant colonel, as I said
8 Q. Thank you. And then in 1993 you took up an assignment with the
9 ECMM in Bosnia.
10 A. That's correct. After my retirement, I was immediately contacted
11 by the personnel officer of the Ministry of Defence with the question
12 whether I would be prepared to join the ECMM as a short-term observer in
13 the former Yugoslavia. As I agreed to that, I was given a six-month
14 contract as a monitor to this organisation, starting in February 1993.
15 Q. And could you tell us when the assignment came to an end.
16 A. The assignment ended legally in August 1993, but as I had some
17 leave time left, I actually left the mission I think on the 26th of July,
19 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Colonel, could you for the benefit of the
20 Trial Chamber give us a brief account or description of the role of the
21 ECMM in Bosnia during your tenure, please.
22 A. The original mission of the ECMM was the supervision of the
23 protection of the former Yugoslavia army from the newly independent
24 states, mainly from Croatia and Bosnia. But later on this role was
25 extended due to the situation as it developed, the crisis between the
1 three parties, I would tell them, between the Bosniak side, the Croat
2 side, and the Serbians. And this became, at least in 1993 and 1994, the
3 main task of the mission.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you give us the geographic location of your
5 AOR, please.
6 A. I was assigned to the regional centre Bosnia based in Zenica,
7 covering legally the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but we had
8 no access at that time to the parts which were held by the Serbian
10 Q. And where were your headquarters located?
11 A. The headquarters was located at the Hotel Internacional in
12 Zenica, Central Bosnia.
13 Q. Thank you. The first day of your assignment would have been
14 approximately early March 1993. Could you please describe for us how
15 your day began, from the beginning of your tenure.
16 A. Well, as far as I remember, I think my first day of duty was --
17 in the mission in Zenica was the 7th of March, I think. My first
18 assignment was to act as an operations officer in the headquarters of the
19 regional centre in Zenica. This had only a very short duration. Then I
20 was reassigned to become a member to have Busovaca Joint Commission, a
21 body which was just recently set up as a forum to mediate between the HVO
22 and the Army of BiH.
23 Q. Could you please state for the Trial Chamber the composition of
24 the commission and the role of the commission, please.
25 A. The composition of the commission was that it had three parties:
1 The ECMM, which also held the chair of the commission; and the members of
2 the commission were also the deputy commander of the HVO forces in the
3 area, which was based in Vitez; and the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps
4 of the Armija BiH, based in Zenica.
5 Q. And would you be able to recall for us the names of the
6 commanders who served with you on the commission?
7 A. On the commission, it was Colonel -- the name slipped out -- from
8 the HVO, Tahic or something like that. I don't remember it exactly.
9 Q. Okay. And for the other side?
10 A. For the other side, it was Colonel -- General Merdan, Dzemal
11 Merdan. And I have to also add that both of them had one or two liaison
12 officers also always with them.
13 Q. Now, how often did you hold meetings? How often did the
14 commission hold meetings?
15 A. We met every morning, except on Sundays.
16 Q. And basically, what would be the agenda of the meetings?
17 A. The typical agenda of the meeting would be first to hear the
18 complaints from both sides, mainly concerning things that happened within
19 the last night or during the last night or within the last 24 hours, and
20 then to try to clarify the incidents of these events, find out whether
21 they really happened or were just invented; and if they actually
22 happened, we normally would decide to go to the spot and have a direct
23 vision or a direct view of the facts that have to be established.
24 Q. And as a result of the meetings, did you do any reports on the
25 said meetings?
1 A. Of course. Every member of the ECMM was obliged to write a daily
2 report, which was then sent up the chain of command - that means the team
3 reported to the coordination centre; we had at that time three in Bosnia,
4 one based in Zenica as such, one based in Mostar or close to Mostar, and
5 one based in Tuzla. These three coordination centres compiled the team
6 reports into a daily report, which was then sent to the regional centre
7 in Zenica, and these three incoming CC reports were then compiled to a
8 singular regional centre report, which was presented to the headquarters
9 in Zagreb before -- yeah, before midnight the same day.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, Colonel, could you tell us the structure of the
11 reports. How did you write the report?
12 A. The reports were structured following a structure of the
13 subordinate commands. That means it had an entry for each of the
14 coordination centres. And they had a general statement about what
15 happened in the general area. That means this statement was normally
16 given to the operations officer by the head of the centre, stating --
17 giving his judgement of the situation.
18 Q. And if you were to be shown one of these reports, would you be
19 able to recognise them, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber?
20 A. I think I will.
21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with the Court's permission,
22 may the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit P264, please.
23 Q. Colonel, having looked at the report, could you tell us what you
24 recognise of the report and what you have to say on the report.
25 A. Well, I recognise this as the daily report of the 8th of May,
1 1993 written by myself, and submitted to the headquarters in Zagreb.
2 Q. And it shows what transpired during the alleged meeting and the
3 conclusions as to ...?
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, perhaps, Colonel, we could go into individual
6 situations. And we would be around mid-April now. And I'd like you to
7 discuss with us a meeting that took place on the 14th of April. Could
8 you tell us what transpired, please.
9 A. On the 14th of April? In the morning meeting of the Busovaca
10 Joint Commission, the HVO claimed that four HVO officers returning from
11 the front line near Travnik had been kidnapped and witnesses on the scene
12 described the vehicle which took the hostages away as a green truck.
13 This green truck came to be more later on a synonym for a heavy equipment
14 of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
15 Q. What action, if any, was taken as a result of the meeting and the
16 information that you gleaned from the meeting?
17 A. We tried to find out whether this action really happened, and it
18 was confirmed. But we could not find out the same day what happened to
19 the kidnapped four officers, until very, very close to the exchange of
20 the hostages. Later we were unable to locate them and to give any
21 estimation of who actually held them at the time.
22 Q. Did you make any reports to the representative of the 7th Muslim
23 Brigade with respect to the allegations that were made in the meeting?
24 A. We didn't -- as far as I know, we didn't make a report to the
25 commander of the 7th Brigade, but we made -- brought the claim to the
1 attention of the 3rd Corps Armija BiH representative in the commission.
2 Q. On the next day, it would have been the 15th of April, 1973, and
3 did you learn anything -- 1993 -- and did you learn anything further with
4 respect to the kidnappings?
5 A. Not with respect to the kidnapping, but at that day, as far as I
6 recall, another kidnapping happened directly in Zenica, where the
7 commander of one of the two HVO brigades which were based in Zenica was
8 kidnapped on his way to his office in the morning. His, I think, four
9 bodyguards were shot dead, as well as one civilian victim who happened to
10 be in the vicinity of the spot.
11 Q. Could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber state for us the
12 name of the alleged kidnapped commander.
13 A. His name was Colonel Totic.
14 Q. Thank you. And by the 16th of April, could you tell us if the
15 commission still existed, and if not, why.
16 A. Well, the Busovaca Joint Commission never met again after the
17 14th of April, due to the events that started with the kidnapping mainly
18 of Colonel Totic. The joint commission was never legally or formally
19 dissolved, but none of the members involved, the sides, saw any benefit
20 any more in any of the meetings. And I have to add also that on the -- I
21 think on the 16th as well, the two HVO brigades based in Zenica were
22 disarmed by Armija BiH and dissolved.
23 Q. How would you describe the situation in the area now?
24 A. The tension was very high after these events, and resulted
25 finally in a restart of fighting mainly in the area of Vitez.
1 Q. Colonel, there came a time after that when you proceeded to -- on
2 leave. Could you tell us when you left and for how long.
3 A. Well, as far as I recall, I left on the 19th on a planned leave.
4 The way I got out was using a convoy which was evacuating mainly
5 personnel of international organisations who felt that the threat was too
6 high now, and my task was to escort this convoy from Zenica to Split.
7 And from Split I went on leave. I came back, as far as I recall, on the
8 30th of April.
9 Q. When you got back to the 30th of April, could you tell us where
10 you were now seconded to.
11 A. After my return from leave, I was, as the commission was
12 dissolved, again appointed as operations officer in the HQ RC in Zenica,
13 took over this position immediately. And a few days later, as far as I
14 recall, I had also to take over the task of a Greek monitor who was
15 leaving for Sofia, I think, who had up to that time served as a
16 connection to a group of, as they called them, Arabs, or Mujahedin, in
17 negotiating a possible exchange of hostages between the Bosniak and the
18 Croat side.
19 Q. These negotiations, Colonel, were they to have taken up the time
20 up to the end of your tenure? Did it?
21 A. Almost, yes. It took me busy for -- until the exchange actually
22 happened, which was, according to my memory, the 17th of May.
23 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, could you in chronological order tell
24 us exactly what took place with respect to the exchange and how you
25 eventually got these prisoners of war exchanged. Thanks.
1 A. Well, actually, the negotiations started when I was on leave and
2 were on the ECMM side done by Mr. Dagos, the Greek monitor. He
3 briefly -- but sufficiently, of course -- briefed me on the events that
4 happened during my absence before he left, because I had to take over.
5 These negotiations were kept on a very, very low profile, even in the
6 ECMM mission in Zenica only the head of the office and the chief
7 interpreter knew about it. And I had to continue to keep this on low key
8 in order not to involve too many people in that.
9 Q. With whom did you -- who were the parties? Who were the
10 negotiating parties? And who represented who?
11 A. The parties were an unknown person representing, as we said, the
12 Arab Group, myself, and I had to convey the request from the Arab Group
13 to HVO and to Armija BiH through two contact persons, both of them being
14 the chief of the military police from both sides.
15 Q. And this unknown person, could you -- would you be able to
16 describe for us what he looked like and his ethnic background for the
17 Court, please.
18 A. Well, according to his appearance, I would say he was from
19 Northern Africa, maybe Tunisia. He was in his mid-30s, I would say,
20 slim, about -- almost 180 high; very well educated in his behaviour, very
21 polite. But he never disclosed his name and he never -- I never had a
22 chance to address him by his name.
23 Q. In Bosnia, how would such a person be referred to as?
24 A. Well, the group he was representing, actually would have been
25 called the Mujahedin in normal phrases.
1 Q. Thank you. After days of negotiations, there finally came a
2 time when the actual handing over took place, or the actual exchange took
3 place. Could you tell us what transpired in this said day. And I
4 believe it would have been the 17th of May, 1993.
5 A. Well, I think I have to start with the 14th, when actually the
6 request was made that HVO should set a date for the exchange. And the
7 HVO on my -- after my transmittal of the request proposed the 17th at
8 12.00 as the date for the exchange to be. This date was accepted by the
9 Arabian Group and they additionally requested that the exchange should
10 take place on three locations -- at three locations at the same time.
11 The three locations they gave was, number one, in Travnik in front of the
12 PTT building. The PTT building at that time was the place where a joint
13 headquarters between HVO and the Armija BiH had been set up. One could
14 look at this joint headquarters as a follow-up of the Busovaca Joint
15 Commission, except that ECMM was not represented in this body, but we
16 used it as a platform for negotiations and mediation.
17 The second place was the Mediapan factory, a wood factory close
18 to the Kaonik prison. And the third place was in front of the Hotel
19 Internacional in Zenica, the headquarters of the ECMM, of course. It was
20 requested that at all three locations representatives from all four sides
21 which were involved - the four -- I'm now talking about four sides being
22 ECMM as a mediator, the Arab Group as the requestor, I would like to say;
23 the HVO as holding one part of the hostages; and the Armija BiH as
24 holding the other part of the hostages. And it was also requested that
25 three means of communications, independently, had to be set up between
1 the three locations, so we used the normal PTT telephone line as one
2 means, and two other means were provided by the British Battalion based
3 in Vitez. One was a radio link and one of a satellite telephone link.
4 Q. Would you say, then, the exchange went through smoothly?
5 A. Sorry, I cannot say this, because we encountered a number of
6 problems during the preparation -- during the actual exchange. As I
7 said, the exchange was planned for 12.00. Everything was prepared to
8 that, and then we had problems in communication, language-wise, because
9 one of the representatives of the Arab Group - and this was the one that
10 was with me in the Mediapan factory - didn't speak any English and didn't
11 speak any Serbo-Croat or whatever, so it was very difficult to make him
12 understand at what stage the preparations had reached and what he could
13 communicate to his counterparts on the other side. This resulted in a
14 delay of more than four and a half hours, so actually we could start with
15 the exchange of the hostages by about 4.30 and we were through about --
16 after 5.00.
17 Q. Did you have to take your convoy to any particular place to be
19 A. Yes. The arrangement was like this: That in the factory -- the
20 wood factory close to Kaonik the, I think, 12 Muslim hostages should be
21 taken by myself and then transported to Zenica in front of the Hotel
22 Internacional, where they should be exchanged against the Colonel Totic
23 and two other Croat people that had been kidnapped in the meantime from a
24 radio station in Zenica. One was I think a journalist and the other one
25 was a radio operator.
1 Q. Anything unusual at the Hotel Internacional in Zenica when you
2 went to complete the exchange?
3 A. Yes. The unusual thing was that the police officers, which were
4 normally based in front of the hotel for our protection, were not on the
5 spot and no local police or other military personnel could be seen. But
6 a big number of soldiers, most of them wearing masks but none of them
7 wearing any military insignia, were around the place, in front of the
8 hotel, on the roof of the football stadium, which is quite -- just
9 opposite the hotel, and in the vicinity. They were heavily armed not
10 only with their normal small arms but also with RPGs, which means
11 anti-tank rocket missile, and also four battle I think 20-millimetre gun
12 mounted on a 5-tonne truck. And this gun had been seen before by us and
13 was a part of the equipment of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
14 Q. In your opinion, then, which unit would you say that all these
15 soldiers came from?
16 A. I assumed that all of them were members of the 7th Muslim Brigade
17 who were tasked to assure the exchange on the spot.
18 Q. And finally, was the exchange completed?
19 A. The exchange was completed. The Muslim hostages were released
20 from the British armoured personnel carriers and taken over by the Muslim
21 side or Arab side, I would say, and put into, I think, two trucks and
22 transported away, and at the same time Colonel Totic was released from a
23 small vehicle and handed over to us.
24 Q. Did you eventually have what one would say a final meeting with
25 respect to this exchange, and with whom did you have it?
1 A. I had a visit the next day, the following day, by our -- by my
2 negotiating partner from the Arab side, who thanked me for the successful
4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Colonel, during your tenure in Bosnia from
5 April until July 1993, did you have cause to meet with Mr. Enver
7 A. Yes, I had. Although the -- normally the contacts with
8 General Hadzihasanovic were done by Mr. Thebault, our head of the
9 regional office himself, on three or four occasions, he asked me to
10 accompany him on these occasions, more or less to be a witness for the
12 Q. For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could you tell us or give
13 us your opinions with respect to this gentleman, Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
14 A. General Hadzihasanovic, to me, occurred as a real military
15 leader, who had a certain, I would say -- I'm missing the correct
16 English word for it -- who impressed -- could impress people positively.
17 And I think due to his background he was a real military leader on top of
18 the situation.
19 Q. Would you say that Mr. Hadzihasanovic was somebody who was
20 definitely in charge? Would you say that? Did you get that impression?
21 A. He was definitely in charge of all troops of the 3rd Corps Armija
22 BiH. But I could not confirm that he was in charge or on top of the
23 groups of Mujahedin that were in the area.
24 Q. To whom did you make your complaints with respect to the Muslim
25 units in the area? To whom did you lodge your complaints?
1 A. These complaints normally were lodged by Mr. Thebault to
2 General Hadzihasanovic.
3 Q. And could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber tell us what
4 usually was the response.
5 A. The response normally was, if it was concerning the 7th Muslim
6 Brigade, that he would take care of the case. As far as it concerned the
7 Mujahedin, the answer normally was "These are not under my control."
8 Q. And during your tenure there, did you see any progress with
9 respect to the complaints that you made? Did you see any progress?
10 A. Yes. At least, as far as the 7th Muslim Brigade is concerned.
11 Q. I believe that you would have had contact with Mr. Merdan. Could
12 you give us a brief synopsis of what -- how this gentleman reached out to
13 you, what are your impressions of him, please.
14 A. I had been working with Mr. Merdan in the joint commission for
15 about six weeks on a daily basis, so I think I got to know him very well,
16 and he impressed me as a person, a person who was very reasonable,
17 clear-thinking, and straightforward. According to his background, being
18 a naval officer, he was not in the position, according to my judgement,
19 to be the deputy commander of an army corps. For instance, when we were
20 on the ground and I found infantry positions in a very inappropriate
21 place, where I would have normally asked people to move to a suitable
22 place he never made such an attempt, because obviously this was not of
23 his concern.
24 Q. What about your concerns and your complaints with respect to
25 problems or reports that you may have received? Would you say that they
1 were well received by Mr. Merdan and were they acted upon?
2 A. Mr. Merdan took all of our complaints very seriously. In many
3 cases it turned out that he was poorly briefed before he came to the
4 meeting by his headquarters, and in many cases he had to ask for a
5 time-out in order to contact General Hadzihasanovic.
6 Q. So Mr. Merdan would have referred the complaints up to
7 Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Your final day in office and as a consequence the end
10 of your tenure was sometime around the end of May 1993; am I right?
11 A. The end of May was the end of my term in Zenica.
12 Q. In that AOR.
13 A. In that -- well, actually, in that position.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. At that time, I went on leave again, until, I think, end of May,
16 and after my return, I was reassigned to be the head of the coordination
17 centre in Tuzla, in Northern Bosnia.
18 Q. Thank you. Before your -- before proceeding on leave, you would
19 have written a final report as to what transpired during the tenure; am I
21 A. Well, I wrote a final report on the hostage exchange I think the
22 day after the exchange happened; this would be the 18th of May.
23 Q. And if you were to see that report again, would you be able to
24 recognise the same?
25 A. For sure, because I keep a copy in my personal file.
1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, may the witness
2 be shown Prosecution Exhibit P155, please.
3 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, Your Honours, I recognise this as my
4 final report written after the hostage exchange. And I have to correct
5 my previous statement. It was not the 18th but the 19th of May.
6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:
7 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Colonel, on the last page -- the pages are
8 not numbered, but on the very last page, 00707018. Would that be a list
9 of the hostages that were exchanged?
10 A. Correct. This was a list of the hostages exchanged. Under A,
11 these are the names of the hostages that were handed over from HVO to
12 Armija BiH. Under B and C are those -- the Croat names of the persons
13 that had been handed over to the HVO.
14 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
15 Colonel, and finally, your presence in Bosnia as a negotiator
16 with the ECMM, did you see it having any effect in any way on what
18 A. Well, looking back to the time, I have to say that for sure the
19 presence of the ECMM monitors in Bosnia had a positive effect insofar
20 that the situation would have probably been much worse and even fighting
21 much tougher without their presence.
22 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours, this concludes
24 the examination-in-chief.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Benjamin. I'm
1 giving the floor to the Defence for their cross-examination.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Schellschmidt. I would like
5 to thank you for having given us the opportunity to meet you during our
6 preparations. For the record, I'm going to introduce myself to you
7 again. My name is Edina Residovic, and I represent General
8 Hadzihasanovic. As the President has already explained to you, I would
9 like to ask you certain questions that arise from the questions of my
10 learned friend, but I'm also going to put to you some general questions
11 in order to set the context when you were on your tour of duty in Bosnia.
12 You arrived in Zenica on 7 March 1993 as a member of the European
13 Monitoring Mission, and after a certain while spent in the regional
14 centre in Zenica, you were deployed to the Busovaca Commission. Would
15 that be correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. During that time, the chief of the regional centre of the
18 monitoring mission of the European Union was a French diplomat whose name
19 was Jean-Pierre Thebault; is that correct?
20 A. This is correct as well.
21 Q. When you arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina, you were aware of the
22 fact that Bosnia and Herzegovina had been recognised as an independent
23 state, that it had been admitted as a member of the United Nations, and
24 that immediately after that it had been attacked and that most of the
25 country had been occupied by the Army of Republika Srpska. Were you
1 aware of all of these facts?
2 A. Yes, I was briefed on these facts on the -- in the start of my
3 mission at the headquarters of the ECMM in Zagreb.
4 Q. When you arrived in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you did not have any
5 precise information about the relationship between the Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 army and the Croatian Defence Council; would that be correct?
7 A. Well, I had been briefed on the problems between these two
8 factions as well during my introductory tour in Zagreb, so I had a
9 certain amount of knowledge about the problems between these two parties.
10 Q. You obtained additional information when you arrived in Zenica,
11 and when you were told that between the HVO and the BH army there was
12 quite a lot of tension and even fighting in Prozor, Gornji Vakuf, and in
13 Busovaca. Did you obtain such information?
14 A. This is correct.
15 Q. In fact, in order to find a solution to matters that were in
16 dispute, a cessation of hostilities was established and attempts were
17 made to prevent new fighting from breaking out and a commission was
18 established in Busovaca which was called the Busovaca Commission; is that
20 A. Yes, it's correct.
21 Q. The Busovaca Commission, and in response to a question from my
22 learned colleague you told us about the composition of this composition
23 [as interpreted] - meetings were held in this commission on a daily basis
24 either in Busovaca or in Vitez. These towns at the time were under HVO
25 control. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. For these reasons, as Armija members were not able to pass
3 through territory under HVO control, the European monitors and you
4 yourself drove the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps, Dzemal Merdan, from
5 Zenica on a daily basis and other officers as well. You drove them to a
6 meeting held in the headquarters of the European monitors in Busovaca or
7 Vitez; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. In addition to discussions about the problems that the parties --
10 both parties presented to the commission, you wanted to take immediate
11 and direct action in the field, and quite often many members of the
12 commission or some of the members went into the field in order to observe
13 the situation directly and in order to attempt to resolve any problems.
14 Is this the method that you used?
15 A. Yes, this was a method which we used. And in the beginning, this
16 seemed to be a very effective method in order to calm down the situation.
17 Q. When you went into the field with Armija and HVO representatives,
18 as an experienced soldier you were in a position to observe that the
19 BH Armija was in the process of being established and that in many
20 situations it was a matter of groups that had organised themselves and
21 the local commanders were those who were in fact in charge. Is this
22 something that you were able to observe? Was this a conclusion you could
24 A. Well, my observation at that time was that there was no real
25 military structure established at that time, and those who called
1 themselves being a company or being a battalion normally were more or
2 less smaller groups of men who had picked up weapons and appointed one of
3 them, mainly -- and sometimes, in some cases, the mayor or in some cases
4 another leading person in the village, to be their commander. So I would
5 say that the military chain of command at that time did not really exist.
6 Q. In fact, you were able to observe a significant difference
7 between the members of the 3rd Corps Command and you described Commander
8 Hadzihasanovic and his deputy, Merdan, you described them as professional
9 soldiers and you said that they were trying to establish the Armija. So
10 you were able to observe differences between them and the soldiers in the
11 field who were not professional soldiers but were organised in the way
12 that you have just described. Were you able to notice such a difference,
13 a difference which also concerned the way in which military discipline
14 was regarded?
15 A. Yes, this is more or less true. There was a great difference
16 between the officers in the headquarters of the Armija of the 3rd Corps,
17 which in most cases had some military background, and the forces in the
18 field, where the military background mainly was the experience from their
19 military service as conscripts in previous years.
20 Q. You were also able to notice that quite frequently the deputy
21 commander Dzemal Merdan wasn't in a position to issue orders to the local
22 commanders. He more frequently used discussion and negotiations in order
23 to ensure that they understood that the order was justified and that it
24 was necessary to carry it out.
25 A. This is correct, and I would like to refer to my previous
1 statement about the character of Dzemal Merdan as it appeared to me, not
2 being a person depending on giving orders, rather than on persuading
3 people to do certain things.
4 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, would it be correct for me to say that when I
5 previously spoke to you you described the situation by saying that
6 sometimes you had the impression that Armija commanders, 3rd Corps
7 commanders, in fact also used the Busovaca Commission in order to
8 discipline and organise their very own army? Is that the impression that
9 you had at that time?
10 A. This is a very good description of the impressions I had
11 sometimes, that we have been used - by we, I mean the commission - have
12 been used to as a chain of communications to the subordinate units.
13 Q. In relation to this explanation of yours, you also said that it
14 was very difficult to establish a corps. And if I am interpreting what
15 you said correctly, you said that in order to create a corps, if you're
16 starting from scratch, you need up to seven years; and if there are
17 brigades that already exist, in such a case this would require three
18 years. I then asked what sort of position Enver Hadzihasanovic was in.
19 Could you please tell me whether you remember what your answer to my
20 question was on that occasion.
21 A. Well, I think I quoted an American saying, being a "Mission:
23 Q. That's exactly what you told me.
24 Nevertheless, in spite of the situation that the 3rd Corps was
25 in, could you confirm, Mr. Schellschmidt, that the Armija command and the
1 BH army strove to cooperate with the European Community and the European
2 monitors? It was open to suggestions and carried out the decisions that
3 had been reached at the joint commission.
4 A. Well, of course the Armija BiH was always open for suggestions.
5 I'm not so sure about -- that they were really successful in implementing
6 the decision of the joint commission.
7 Q. My learned colleague asked you about your involvement in the
8 exchange of these foreign combatants. I would now like to go back to the
9 previous period, the early period when you worked in the Busovaca
10 Commission. Would it be correct to say that information about certain
11 foreigners being arrested by the HVO was information that you received a
12 lot earlier? You received it in March from the Red Cross. You examined
13 this information at a meeting of the Busovaca Commission, and on that
14 occasion Dzemal Merdan informed you that certain international Islamic
15 non-governmental organisations were also requesting that these
16 individuals be released, and as a result you decided to deal with this
17 issue, to examine the issue at one of the commission's meetings. Is this
19 A. Well, this is correct. We learned about the fact that some
20 individuals had been detained by HVO earlier in one of the missions, and
21 in the course of the UN's. I together with another ECMM monitor visited
22 the military prison in Kaonik and had a chance to talk to four people of
23 mainly Arabian background which were detained there. Two of them -- one
24 of them was obviously a journalist, having a Turkish accreditation;
25 another one claimed to be an aid worker for a Saudi Arabian organisation;
1 the other two also claimed to be aid workers, but could not give us
2 any -- the name of any organisation they had been affiliated to.
3 Actually, I understand that this was the very first time that this prison
4 has been visited by any international organisations; even the
5 International Red Cross didn't have access to this prison before. But at
6 that time, there was not any connection or vision of any hostage
7 exchange. It was just dealing with detained Arabian peoples, and the --
8 we made an attempt to get them free. HVO agreed under the condition that
9 these four people -- I think they were still talking about four people --
10 would be taken immediately to Croatia and sent back to their home
11 countries in order to prevent them staying into -- on Bosnian territory.
12 The problem for us was to arrange transport into Croatia and our
13 headquarters in Zagreb did not respond in any way to our request for
14 authorisation to do so, and the Red Cross, of course, due to their
15 mandate was not able to do it as well. So this was not accomplished, and
16 in the meantime the exchange question came out and these four people were
17 among those being exchanged on 17th of May.
18 Q. I have a few more questions that concern the information you
19 first received about foreigners in Kaonik. Their presence was denied and
20 it was then accepted by Colonel Blaskic, who made it possible for you to
21 make the visit you have mentioned. But you also found out that there
22 were other Arabs who were detained elsewhere and they had been arrested
23 when arriving in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that correct?
24 A. It's correct that at first the presence of the four in Kaonik was
25 denied and later on accepted by Colonel Blaskic. We also were told about
1 other Arabs being detained, mainly on their way between the Croatian
2 border and Central Bosnia, but we had no certain information where they
3 were held prisoner.
4 Q. When speaking to the commander of the prison in Kaonik,
5 Mr. Aleksovski, you found out that they had quite a lot of money on them,
6 over one million dollars in marks, German marks. And from Colonel
7 Blaskic you also found out that they had weapons and this is the reason
8 for which they were imprisoned. Is this the information that you
9 obtained at the time?
10 A. Well, we were told that they carried -- or at least one of them
11 carried a big amount of money in US dollars and in German marks.
12 Allegedly all of them were carrying hand weapons, and one -- on one
13 person a mini camera was also found, which was deemed to be inappropriate
14 for aid workers. And this was given as the main reason for their
16 Q. The people that you spoke to said that they had permission to
17 enter the country and all that they requested that you do was that you
18 should inform the Islamic centre in Zenica about the fact that they had
19 been detained. Is that all that these individuals asked you to do on
20 their behalf?
21 A. Well, of course they asked us to assist them to get freed and
22 it's true that they asked us to inform the Islamic centre in Zenica,
23 which of course happened.
24 Q. In fact, it was quite clear to you that those individuals were
25 not members of the BH army at the time that you visited them.
1 A. This is true. We never considered them to be members of the
2 BiH army.
3 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, let's now move on to the subject of the
4 information that you had about the kidnapping of four HVO soldiers and
5 the kidnapping of Mr. Totic in Zenica. My learned colleague has asked
6 you detailed questions about this. Would it be correct to say that
7 following the protest that was lodged with you the HVO blocked all the
8 roads around Zenica and they threatened to divide Zenica into a part
9 under Croatian control and into another part under the control of the
11 A. Well, I'm not -- actually not aware of such a threat. It's
12 actually the first time I hear today. But it's true - talking about the
13 dividing Zenica - but it's true that, I know about the threat to cut all
14 road connections into Zenica.
15 Q. The Greek monitor, Dagos, was responsible to follow the -- this
16 issue, the issue of the individuals who were kidnapped, and he was fully
17 involved in this matter; isn't that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is correct. He followed the whole matter from the ECMM
20 Q. Since at the very beginning the HVO lodged a protest with your
21 commission and they said that they suspected that the 7th Muslim Brigade
22 was involved in the kidnapping, the 3rd Corps of the BH army and all its
23 units, in an attempt to show that the Armija had nothing to do with the
24 kidnapping, immediately made it possible for the European monitors to
25 visit all the places in which it was suspected that these kidnapped men
1 might be present. So HVO members went to these places together with the
2 European monitors.
3 A. Well, actually, these things happened during my absence from
4 Zenica, but I can confirm that members of our mission had access to these
5 places and they checked them.
6 Q. In fact, that was my next question: From the 19th to the 30th of
7 April, you were on leave. And with regard to the events that took place
8 during that period, the only information you had about these events is
9 information that your colleague, Mr. Dagos, provided you with when he was
10 leaving the mission; is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. When you returned from leave you no longer worked with a team or
13 in the commission. You assumed the duties of an operations officer in
14 the regional centre. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is correct as well.
16 Q. Your task was to collect daily reports drafted by team members in
17 the field. You had to put all these reports together and then send these
18 reports to the relevant institutions in Zagreb. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, with one small addition: The teams reported to their
20 respective coordination centre, which normally controlled two to three
21 teams. These coordination centres - we had three of them - compiled a
22 report from these three team reports and transmitted it to the regional
23 centre in Zenica, where I had to compile these CC reports into one report
24 for the headquarters, which also had to include the judgement and the
25 statements from the head of the regional centre.
1 Q. Would it be correct if I said that while you were in the Busovaca
2 Commission you compiled daily reports on the basis of the information you
3 had yourself; and when you worked in the regional centre you weren't an
4 immediate witness of events, you had to rely on the reports that were
5 drafted by your colleagues? Would my assessment be correct?
6 A. Yes, this assessment is correct.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's perhaps time
8 for the break.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you for having
10 pointed out that it's time for our break.
11 It is now quarter to 4.00. We will resume at 4.15. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor to resume
15 your cross-examination, Mrs. Residovic.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
17 Mr. President.
18 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, is it correct that the role of a negotiator on
19 behalf of the European monitors that you had, that you took it over from
20 Mr. Dagos on the 11th May 1993?
21 A. Yes, it's correct.
22 Q. From that then day onwards you were a witness to everything that
23 was taking place during the negotiations. Before that time, all you had
24 was information from Mr. Dagos or the information that you read
25 subsequently in daily reports. Would that be correct?
1 A. It's correct insofar as I got my information from Dagos. There
2 was almost nothing about this negotiations for obvious reasons in the
3 daily reports.
4 Q. From the moment you took over this negotiating mission, the ECMM
5 was in contact with the representatives of these foreigners only via
6 yourself and only after that the information that you had received you
7 would send to the HVO, the BiH army, and the International Red Cross
8 Committee; would that be correct?
9 A. It's correct. The only person that was directly involved was
10 myself and my interpreter.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm now going to ask the usher to
13 show to the witness eight photos. The originals are in colour.
14 Therefore, I'm going to ask the witness to put them on the ELMO so we can
15 all see them. And I have a set of photocopies for the Trial Chamber and
16 my learned friends.
17 I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that the Defence came
18 into possession of these photos from a potential Defence witness who due
19 to certain reasons can no longer be called to testify. He was one of the
20 monitors himself and he was on the spot during the events.
21 I'm going to ask the witness, should he recognise these photos,
22 to mark them and the Defence is going to tender these photos into
24 The Trial Chamber is aware of the reasons for which the Defence
25 is not going to be able to call this witness. The Defence has decided to
1 use this witness as a military consultant.
2 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, could you please place these photos on the
3 overhead projector. We would like to see the photos that you're looking
4 at in colour. Could you please tell us whether you recognise these
6 A. Yes. Obviously this photograph shows the moment when the
7 exchanged Arab hostages were put into these two vehicles and -- in order
8 to carry them away. It was at the -- It was towards the end of the
9 exchange procedure.
10 Q. Thank you. To speed things along, I would like the witness to
11 look at all the eight photographs, and I am going to ask him to sign the
12 ones that he has recognised and put today's date, and when tendering
13 these photos into evidence I would like to Trial Chamber to give them
14 just one number.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I proceed in this way, Your
17 Q. Can you please put the second photo on the ELMO.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, do you have any
19 observations to this procedure? The Defence would like to show the
20 witness all the eight photographs at a time. They would like the witness
21 to put today's date and his name on the photographs that he recognises.
22 The witness has already told us that he has recognised the first photo.
23 Mrs. Benjamin or Mr. Mundis, do you have any objections to this
24 fashion of procedure?
25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with respect to the format,
1 we don't have any objections. It could go in as a bundle. But as to
2 what is going to transpire when the witness identifies each one, then,
3 only then can we say. Thanks.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, do you recognise the following photo?
8 A. I recognise this as a photograph showing a view from Zenica. As
9 I recall, from the roof or top of the Hotel Internacional to the river
11 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at photo number 3.
12 A. Yes. This photograph also shows the area in front of the Hotel
13 Internacional, and then on the left-hand side you can see that -- a
14 track-mounted four-barrelled gun with a number of people standing on it.
15 Q. Thank you. Please look at the next photo.
16 A. This again is a photo taken during the exchange, that means at
17 the end of the exchange. On the left-hand side at the bottom is one to
18 have British armoured personnel carriers. Behind that, a white car I
19 cannot really recognise. I think it's one of the vehicles used to
20 transport the hostages. And the white one, you have already seen on the
21 first picture.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we move on to the next photo, please.
23 A. Okay. I recognise this photograph as well. It shows, again, in
24 the foreground the two armoured personnel carriers, and myself in between
25 them, the guy with the blue cap and the hand-held radio.
1 Q. Thank you. The next one, please.
2 A. This again is a photograph of the same scene, obviously taken out
3 of the upper floors from the hotel, and showing the background, the
4 football stadium I was referring to earlier in my statement. And this
5 moment, which is obviously close to the end of the procedure, the roof of
6 the stadium is already emptied.
7 Q. Thank you. And now the next photo, please. Can you look at it.
8 A. I think this single person in front is my mediator from the Arab
9 side, because he was always wearing a brown suit and a cap. And also --
10 I cannot recognise the face. I think it's him.
11 Q. Thank you. And the last photo, please.
12 A. This again shows part of the exchange. The hostages are --
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness
15 was there, he has recognised himself in one of the photos, and he is well
16 aware of the situation in all the other photos. Again I would like to
17 ask the witness to mark every photo, put numbers from 1 to 8 on them, put
18 today's date and sign them. And the Defence would like to tender these
19 eight photos into evidence as a single exhibit.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
21 Sir, can you put your name, today's date, and sign every photo.
22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, may I with the Trial
23 Chamber's indulgence, please, with respect to number 2, that's the only
24 one that I think the Prosecution want to object on, on the grounds of
25 relevance. I really do not see how it relates to the others and what we
1 are in fact talking about. So that is the only objection that we would
2 want to have, number 2.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number 2, which depicts a
4 bridge and a river, what is the relevance of this photo? Could you
5 please explain.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence
7 will -- can withdraw this photo, however we have received it from the
8 witness who has taken all of these photos and he photographed the bridge
9 and the river from the same place and -- showing the area in front to
10 have Hotel Internacional. If the Trial Chamber would like us to withdraw
11 this photo from the bundle, we are happy to do that, Your Honour.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do we have this photo in
14 colour? Because the only thing we have is a black-and-white copy. Do we
15 have this photo in colour as well?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The witness
17 has seen the photo in colour. I would respectfully suggest that he
18 should sign it, because we would like to tender into evidence the colour
19 photos. We have made black-and-white copies for the Trial Chamber to
20 help it follow what the witness is explaining.
21 If the Trial Chamber would like to see the colour photos before
22 rendering their decision --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Chamber would like to
24 see the colour photos.
25 To avoid wasting any more time, I would like to ask just one
1 question arising from photo number 2.
2 Can you please put it on the ELMO.
3 Witness, you are looking at photo number 1. We can see two vans
4 and also persons who are masked, and in the back there is the public.
5 Behind the van, there are bushes. Can you please look behind the bushes.
6 In the photo we see two persons in military uniforms, and one of them is
7 carrying a gun. According to you, who were these two persons in military
8 uniforms? What do you think? Can you please look at the photo. Who are
9 these two people? One of them is carrying a rifle. Could you tell us
10 about these two people.
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, I think both of them were part of
12 the military group that surrounded the area, as I described earlier.
13 Most of them were wearing masks; some of them did not, and I assume that
14 these two belong to that group.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that the two
16 persons belonged to the group; is that the conclusion that you draw based
17 on this photo?
18 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the only question I
21 Can you please put your name and today's date on the photo, on
22 the photos.
23 We are returning to the Defence the photo of the river.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher is going to show
1 these photos which have been signed by the witness to the Prosecution, to
2 the Defence teams, and to the accused.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 Mr. President, I numbered and marked seven pictures.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are returning the eighth one
8 to the Defence, because they have withdrawn it from the bundle and they
9 are not tendering the eighth photo into evidence.
10 Mr. Registrar, can we have an exhibit number for these photos.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH182.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour?
13 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, you were talking about the teams and the
14 members of the Busovaca Commission and how they used to write daily
15 reports to be delivered to coordination centres. The coordination
16 centres would deliver them to the regional centre and then the operations
17 officer in the regional centre would draft a report that would be sent to
19 Is it correct, Mr. Schellschmidt, that during a certain period of
20 time when the European Monitoring Mission, on the basis of their daily
21 observations and conversations that they had as well as on the reports
22 that they received from the field, could provide a certain opinion on the
23 most significant problems; and when that happened a special report would
24 be drafted on the political and military situation and this report would
25 be drafted by the head of mission and would deliver it to your superior
1 command in Zagreb? Was that the procedure? Was that the case?
2 A. Yes, this was in general the case and the procedure. Special
3 reports could be written by a single monitor who had been tasked with the
4 specific task, or by the head of the regional centre, either on request
5 from the headquarters or on a decision of the person concerned. There
6 were no set dates and events on which special reports had to be written.
7 It was up to the discretion of the one submitting it.
8 Q. Now, going to--
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to ask for the
10 witness to be shown a special report dated the 1st of May. This report
11 was drafted by the head of mission in Zenica, Mr. Jean-Pierre Thebault.
12 We have a sufficient number of copies for everybody.
13 Mr. President, this document was provided to the Defence from the
14 Blaskic case. There's also a French translation of the document and an
15 identical document was disclosed to us by the Prosecution in agreement
16 with the European Union, when they received the European Union's approval
17 for these documents to be disclosed to us.
18 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, do you recognise this report as one of the
19 special reports that the head of mission drafted on certain military,
20 political, and other issues relevant to Central Bosnia?
21 A. Yes, I recognise this as one of the special reports -- although I
22 have not seen this specific one before, because as you see it's
23 absolutely confidential. That means that the head of the regional centre
24 had not circulated it inside our organisation. But it is one of those
25 special reports written on specific occasions, and this one at the end, I
1 understand, contains very specific recommendations.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since this is a
3 recognisable document, i.e., a special report by the European monitors,
4 and the witness is aware of the procedure, and since this is an official
5 document of the European Monitoring Mission, I would like to tender this
6 document into evidence as a very relevant Defence exhibit.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, the Defence
8 would like to tender into evidence the report that the witness does not
9 know. He has explained to us that this report is a confidential report
10 and that's why he was not aware of its contents. However, what is in the
11 report he doesn't contest. What is your position on this document?
12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, that's precisely the reason
13 why we would want to object. This witness is not the author of that
14 report. He says quite clearly that it was a confidential report. He
15 knows nothing of what is inside this report. And my friend said she's
16 submitting the report or putting it into evidence based on the relevance
17 of the report. I can't understand. Relevance to what? Is it relevance
18 to the evidence that's before us or -- because if the witness himself
19 says quite clearly "I cannot say -- comment on it because it was
20 confidential. I am not the author of the report," and all he could
21 really agree on is the format of the report. So I would want to think
22 that clearly this report should not be allowed to be entered into
23 evidence, because it does not -- the foundation has not been properly
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you wish to respond to the
2 position put forth by the Prosecution?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Some of the
4 issues covered by this report have already been commented upon by the
5 witness. I can continue and ask some additional questions, but I don't
6 deem this to be necessary because so far our position has been that all
7 the official reports drafted by the European monitors and the UNPROFOR
8 that the Prosecution has tendered, we would accept as being authentic and
9 we -- and these reports are admitted into evidence. This procedure was
10 applied to the report dated July referring to the importance of the
11 supply flows, and the witness who was testifying about the situation in
12 Gornji Vakuf recognised that document although he hadn't seen it before.
13 For this reason, since this is an official document, since the witness
14 has already spoken about some of the issues covered by this report and
15 since so far none of the sides to this procedure has had any objections
16 to such documents being admitted into evidence, I believe there is ample
17 reason for this exhibit to be admitted into evidence as a Defence
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is going to
20 deliberate, because this is a decision that has to be made jointly by the
21 three Judges. After our deliberation, we are going to render a decision.
22 But in order for the Judges to be absolutely clear, I would like to ask
23 the Defence the following:
24 On page 1 of the document on the right-hand side, I can see
25 "Exhibit P386" or something like that. Does that mean that this is an
1 exhibit that belongs to the Prosecution in another case?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a Prosecution
3 exhibit in the Naletilic case. I believe that on the top you can see
4 that. And the French translation, in the Blaskic case, the same document
5 was used and it was translated into French, and that's why we are using
6 this translation. This is an identical document, absolutely identical
7 document as the document that we have received from the Prosecution.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. In the French
9 version, there is a number, 00850587. Is that the Prosecution number?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this is also the number
11 given to this in the Blaskic case, and this is the number under which the
12 Prosecution disclosed this document to the Defence team in this case. So
13 this is a Prosecution number.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
15 Mrs. Benjamin, would you like to comment upon these
16 clarifications by the Defence? The Defence has told us that this
17 document comes from the Prosecution, that it was tendered into evidence
18 in another case. What can you tell us?
19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, that's just the point. The
20 Prosecution is not objecting on the grounds of authenticity. The
21 objection is raised on the grounds of relevance to this particular case.
22 That document has absolutely no relevance to this particular case. The
23 objection is not against authenticity; it's against relevance, and it
24 certainly does not apply to this case.
25 In addition, the witness himself has said "I don't know what's in
1 there. I am not the author, and I can't say;" you know, "except for
2 format, I cannot say anything else about the document."
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. The Judges
4 are going to deliberate on this issue, and we shall inform you about our
5 decision regarding the admission of this exhibit into evidence.
6 You may proceed.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
8 the document number P264.
9 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, this document was drafted on the 8th of May,
10 1993. Can you please look at page 2. The document was signed by
11 yourself. There is your initial and your family name, and then it says
12 "/OPS." Does this mean that you drafted this document as the operations
13 officer in the regional centre? Is this what the abbreviation stands
15 A. It's correct. It's my name and my function.
16 Q. As you have already told me, the information contained in this
17 document is not what you learnt yourself directly. You drafted this
18 document based on the reports provided to you by the teams who were aware
19 of some facts. In other words, this was somebody else's knowledge that
20 you put in this report. Would that be correct?
21 A. This is correct. And I have to add that the paragraph A, which
22 starts on page 1, mainly is the observations of the head of the regional
23 centre himself.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be returned and
1 can the witness be shown document P155.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Residovic, we have an
3 hourglass that monitors the time. The examination-in-chief lasted 40
4 minutes. How much more time will you be needing to complete your
5 cross-examination? Today we have a little time in front of us, but we
6 would like to stick to a certain frame. How much more time will be
7 needed -- will you be needing to complete your cross-examination?
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Five minutes.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Five minutes. That's okay.
10 Can you, then, proceed, please.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown P155,
13 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, can you please look at item 19. It says here
14 that on the 19th of May [as interpreted] in the evening the courier of
15 the Arab Group verbally provided the ECMM with some proposals. Is it
16 true that from that moment on in this report you list the events that you
17 personally witnessed or were involved with -- involved in, that is to say
18 the events during the period from the time when you took over the duties
19 from Mr. Dagos and continued in your role as a negotiator with the
20 foreign citizens?
21 A. This is correct. On the 11th of May, I was in charge already,
22 and from that moment on the report, which was written by myself, covers
23 the events and facts that I witnessed myself, or did myself.
24 Q. Thank you. And now can a correction be made on page 46, line 16.
25 It says "19th of May." And it should be 11th of May. This is a mistake
1 in the transcript and not in what you have told us.
2 Will you then agree with me that the events described under
3 1 through 19 is not your personal knowledge, but rather the information
4 that you received from Mr. Dagos or in some other way?
5 A. Actually, it's mainly based on the information I got from
6 Mr. Dagos. Part of it I witnessed myself. But it's correct, mainly
7 based on the information I got before I took over.
8 Q. In fact, up to item 19, well, these are things you can't be quite
9 certain of. You can't be certain whether the events took place as
10 described in this report.
11 A. Well, actually, even if I did not witness them myself, I'm quite
12 sure they happened as they are described.
13 Q. If a fact were described in some other way in Mr. Dagos's daily
14 report, you would then accept that the way Mr. Dagos described it on the
15 day he compiled his report was correct. Would you agree with that?
16 A. I think I have to agree to that.
17 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, thank you for answering all the questions I
18 put to you.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very
20 much. I have concluded my cross-examination of this witness now.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Mr. Dixon.
23 MR. DIXON: May it please Your Honours. A few questions on
24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Mr. Schellschmidt.
25 Cross-examined by Mr. Dixon:
1 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that on the 14th of April you
2 were informed by the HVO about four HVO officers being kidnapped and the
3 circumstances of their kidnapping in the Travnik area; is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Would you confirm that it was your conclusion - and this is
6 recorded in your report - that is Prosecution Exhibit 155, which can be
7 given to you if you need a copy - but it's in paragraph 2 of your
8 chronology of events, that your conclusion was that the persons were
9 kidnapped by unknown persons.
10 A. Yes, of course the persons were unknown. But as witnesses
11 referred to that green truck, we were quite sure that members or parts of
12 the 7th Muslim Brigade might be involved in that.
13 Q. But it was never ever proved through your investigations that any
14 members of the 7th Brigade were involved in this kidnapping, and hence in
15 your report you indicate that the persons who perpetrated the act were
16 unknown; is that right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, can you confirm that from your entire
19 experience in the exchange process, that it was the members of the Arab
20 Group, as you put it, and their chief negotiator that laid down the
21 demands for the release of the foreign prisoners and negotiated through
22 your offices, through the ECMM, for their release from the HVO?
23 A. Yes, I can confirm this conclusion.
24 Q. And it was the members of that group that requested meetings with
25 the various organisations in Zenica, including the HVO, the 3rd Corps,
1 the 7th Brigade and other organisations based in Zenica; is that right?
2 A. It's right, except that I'm not aware of any request to have a
3 representative of 7th Brigade included into this negotiations.
4 Q. So the request was to have members from the 3rd Corps.
5 A. Of the 3rd Corps, correct.
6 Q. Referring to your report again that was shown to you earlier on -
7 that's Prosecution Exhibit P155 - there was, however, and this is
8 mentioned at paragraph 12 of your report, there was, however, a visit
9 made by the ECMM to the 7th Brigade. And can you confirm that the
10 7th Brigade requested that a meeting be held on this issue with the HVO,
11 the 3rd Corps, and various other organisations based in Zenica?
12 A. Well, I have to state that I was not part of the group that
13 visited the 7th Brigade.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. This visit was done to my memory by Mr. Thebault himself.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. So I'm not in a position to confirm any specific request from the
18 side of the 7th Brigade in this case.
19 Q. But if such a meeting was held by Ambassador Thebault, it would
20 be entirely appropriate that it be put in your report, as I have
21 mentioned, at paragraph 12 even though you might not have attended that
23 A. Yes, this is true.
24 Q. You mentioned that there was a group of soldiers - you weren't
25 able to identify any insignia on the soldiers - that were outside of the
1 Hotel Internacional at various places. You never had an opportunity to
2 speak to those soldiers or any commander of those soldiers on the scene,
3 did you?
4 A. No, I did not have an opportunity to talk to any of them, but we
5 of course realised when the whole crew left, they went towards the
6 barracks of the headquarters of the 7th Brigade.
7 Q. When they left, they left in various vehicles, did they not?
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. You did not follow those vehicles to where they ended up, did
11 A. No, we did not.
12 Q. You were shown Prosecution Exhibit 264, which you confirmed that
13 you authored and signed. In this regard, can I confirm that the music
14 school in Zenica was not a location that you visited personally on any
15 occasion and you never interviewed any prisoners there?
16 A. It's correct. I never visited the prisoner in the so-called
17 music school, but it was visited to my recollection by Mr. Thebault.
18 Q. Yes.
19 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. Schellschmidt. I have no further
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.
23 Does Ms. Benjamin have any additional questions?
24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution doesn't have
25 any re-examination at this point in time. Thanks.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now consult
2 the Judges to see whether they have any questions.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE SWART: There's only one question less for me to put to
6 you, Witness, concerning the exchange of prisoners in Zenica between the
7 different groups. You said in response to questions from several parties
8 "I couldn't see any insignia on them." But then you said also, "They
9 appeared to me to belong to the 7th army." And I would like to have an
10 explanation of that remark. How did you arrive at that impression or
12 A. Your Honour, I was not referring to 7th army. If this was my
13 words, it was a misspelling. I was referring to 7th Brigade. The
14 conclusion was based on the fact that this vehicle, this truck-mounted
15 four-barrelled gun, was known to us as being part of the equipment of the
16 7th Muslim Brigade.
17 JUDGE SWART: I'm sorry, I wanted to refer to the 7th Brigade, of
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE SWART: I'm mistaken in talking about the 7th army.
21 So that was the basis of your conclusion, you saw the weaponry
22 and you thought this must be the 7th Brigade.
23 A. And we saw them leaving in the direction of the barracks of that
25 JUDGE SWART: Was that close to the place or ...?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE SWART: How far was that?
3 A. Less than a kilometre.
4 JUDGE SWART: Hmm?
5 A. Less than a kilometre.
6 JUDGE SWART: Okay. Were there any other characteristics that
7 would plead in favour or against assuming that this was the 7th Brigade?
8 A. Showing green flags was also a sign of that.
9 JUDGE SWART: Was that a sign of people belonging to the
10 7th Brigade or not belonging to the 7th Brigade?
11 A. It was specifically used by the 7th Brigade because it's the
12 colour of the Muslim faith, of course, but it has been -- it's often
13 shown by the brigade. And what -- I've seen it on one of the vehicles
14 that transported the hostages from the spot.
15 JUDGE SWART: You described the group of persons as soldiers.
16 When you look at these photos that have been shown to you, you might be
17 inclined to think that this is military dress, so to speak. Is that a
18 correct impression from the photos?
19 A. Well, but at that time, Your Honour, the troops in the area were
20 wearing different kinds of uniforms, taken from whatever stocks that were
21 available. So everybody, you know, wearing green or camouflage uniforms
22 and carrying a weapon we considered to be a soldier at that time.
23 JUDGE SWART: What do you mean by "everybody"? That everybody
24 belonging to the army or every person you met in a uniform or -- what is
25 "everybody" in this respect?
1 A. In this respect, "everybody" would be a person showing up in a
2 group of people wearing the same type of clothing and being armed.
3 JUDGE SWART: Okay. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to know
5 something about the photographs. There's the photograph of a masked
6 soldier. Who are they? Why are they masked?
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will ask the registrar to
8 provide us with the photographs again, please.
9 Colonel, you have heard the question put to you. Could you
10 answer the question, please.
11 A. Yes, please. I actually am not in a position to give the real
12 reason why they were masked, but I assume that they did not want to be
14 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Yes. But which army were
15 they part of?
16 A. As I said earlier, we assumed that they were part of the
17 7th Muslim Brigade.
18 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I also have a few questions for
20 you, because there are a certain number of questions we would like to ask
21 about the photographs. But it's not just the photographs I would like to
22 ask you about.
23 The Defence showed you these photographs taken from the rooftop
24 of the Internacional Hotel. At the time of the exchange, did you think
25 that there were people who were able to take photographs or make a
1 report? What could you tell us about that?
2 A. Your Honour, it was part of the agreement that no photographs
3 would be taken, no press would be involved, so when I first learned about
4 these pictures, I was quite surprised. But I cannot exclude that
5 somebody was able - probably not from the roof but out of the window of
6 one of the hotel rooms - to take pictures without being seen or
7 identified. Actually, I don't know who actually took these pictures. I
8 have some suspicions, but I cannot prove it.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can see you in a
10 photograph; you said so yourself. You can be identified. You have a
11 walkie-talkie. Who were you in contact with? You had means of
12 communication. Who was at the end other of the line?
13 A. On the other end of the line was the other ops officer at that
14 time, Mr. Remi Landry, inside the hotel building, whom I had to confirm
15 that things were running well.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the other officer was
17 present in the building and you coordinated action with him via the
18 walkie-talkie. So his task was to ensure that everything was running
20 A. On his side, yes. And the radio also was used to communicate
21 with the British liaison officer, who was normally inside one of the
22 armoured personnel carriers.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of the photographs
24 and following the question put to you by Madam Judge, we can see that
25 there are masked soldiers and soldiers who don't have anything on their
1 heads -- over their heads. We can see that some have beards and we can
2 also see that there are other soldiers without beards. Did you see any
3 soldiers or people dressed as soldiers without beards at the site, at
4 that place?
5 A. Yes, I did. Not everybody being a member of the 7th Brigade was
6 wearing a beard [Realtime transcript read in error: "badge"] Many did,
7 but not all of them.
8 I'm sorry, I see on the screen is translation is badge. I'm
9 talking about a beard. Probably I misunderstood the question of the
11 Badges, I have --
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I am speaking about
13 beards and not about badges. You are telling us that there were
14 7th Brigade soldiers who didn't have beards.
15 A. As I said, not everybody being a member of the 7th Brigade was
16 wearing a beard.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are quite categorical when
18 you answered questions about the lorry in which there were a number of
19 soldiers, and we can also see a weapon which you described as an
20 anti-aircraft weapon in a report. You said that this lorry, this truck,
21 belonged to the 7th Brigade. What were the grounds for make such a
22 claim? Why did you say that in your opinion there was a link to the
23 7th Brigade? We can't see a number plate on the truck. We have the
24 impression that it is a civilian truck, and we have the impression that a
25 weapon was mounted on the truck. But you are a colonel, a military
1 specialist, so why do you claim that this truck belonged to the
2 7th Brigade? What are the grounds upon which you draw this conclusion?
3 A. The grounds are the fact that this vehicle has been seen on the
4 premises of the 7th Brigade for several times.
5 JUDGE SWART: Was this weapon on one of the pictures or not?
6 A. Yes, it was on one of the pictures, on the bottom left side, but
7 mainly covered by men standing around it on the truck.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as this truck is
9 concerned - and there is in fact a flag on it - had you already seen this
11 A. For the moment, I'm not aware of that flag on that car. Perhaps
12 I may see the picture again in order to be able to identify.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll show it to you. I could
14 even put it on the ELMO -- we could even put it on the ELMO and it will
15 be possible for everybody to see it again.
16 It's the first truck. As you can see, there is a green flag and
17 something is written on it. Have you already seen such a flag?
18 A. Yes. We -- I've seen this flag before, and although I'm not able
19 to read Arabic, I think it was the same flag that was permanently flown
20 by units of the 7th Brigade.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I have only two
22 other questions for you, two different kinds of questions, so we can have
23 the photograph back.
24 The Defence presented a report from Ambassador Thebault. The
25 Trial Chamber will decide later on whether it should be admitted or not,
1 but you were shown this report. There are two paragraphs I would like
2 you to comment on, since you were part of this European mission and you
3 were in the field. In one of the paragraphs, it says that assistance,
4 aid, was delivered to Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was either in financial,
5 military means, or it was either in the form of weapons. The person who
6 drafted the report said that this had a political price, and it meant
7 that it was necessary to accept Muslim units who provided support because
8 these countries provided funds.
9 What is your opinion of this claim made by this ambassador, who
10 seems to establish a link between providing weapons and funds with the
11 presence of foreign combatants in the field? Did you discuss this matter
12 among yourselves? And you were present, because you were there; you were
13 in the field. What was your opinion of this, of this link established
14 between the presence of foreign combatants and the delivery of aid?
15 A. Your Honours, this question has been discussed between us at
16 several occasions, and I personally fully support the statement of
17 Mr. Thebault in this report.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: At the end
19 of the report there are certain provisional conclusions reached by
20 Ambassador Thebault. The following is said in these conclusions - and I
21 would like to hear what you have to say about this because you worked
22 with the author of this report and you certainly have an opinion - he
23 says that "Many officers from the JNA, many former JNA officers are
24 persuaded that the Secret Services from Serbia are involved in spreading
25 false information." And in order to explain what the Serbian Secret
1 Service might be engaged in, he says that it is in fact "easy to burn
2 down unoccupied villages at night or to act like Mujahedin." That is a
3 hypothesis that is put forward. But it seems to give one the impression
4 that the Serbs might act by taking on the guise, in a certain sense, of
5 Mujahedin. What is your opinion of this?
6 A. I think this assessment is correct as well, but this -- we also
7 assessed that they did the same towards the Croatian side.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I reread this paragraph
9 concerning -- if we take this together with the photographs of the
10 exchanges, would it be possible that the Serbs had the uniforms that we
11 can see in the middle of the town?
12 A. Mr. President, I cannot -- do not believe that any Serbs would be
13 able to enter Zenica at that time.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 Would the Defence like to ask the witness any other questions, in
16 the light of the questions put by the Judges with regard to the
17 photographs and the various reports?
18 Mrs. Residovic.
19 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Schellschmidt, during the exchange you
21 didn't speak to any of the individuals wearing masks; is that correct?
22 A. It's correct.
23 Q. You didn't speak to any of the individuals who weren't masked or
24 to any individuals who were on that truck.
25 A. It's correct as well.
1 Q. Your claim, according to which they could have been members of
2 the 7th Muslim Brigade, is only based on your assumptions, the
3 assumptions you made about the truck and the direction that they
4 followed; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. I have no other evidence.
6 Q. You mentioned green flags. Would it be correct to say that at
7 the time because of strength of religious sentiments, it was possible to
8 see green flags in other places and on other facilities? It's not as if
9 we could only see flags that members of the 7th Muslim Brigade used.
10 A. This is correct.
11 Q. If I said that the Hotel Internacional is at least 3 kilometres
12 away from the headquarters of the 7th Muslim Brigade, would you agree
13 with me?
14 A. Well, earlier I estimated it to be 1 kilometre, but I'm not too
15 sure about that. If you say it's 3, okay; it's probably 3. You know the
16 area probably better than I do.
17 Q. And my last question, Mr. Schellschmidt: Is it true that
18 Mujahedins and members of the BiH army, especially the 7th Muslim
19 Brigade, were most often linked as being an item by members of the
20 Croatian Defence Council?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And finally, in a conversation with Mr. Hadzihasanovic and
23 Mr. Dzemal Merdan, they always clearly told you that the 3rd Corps had
24 nothing whatsoever to do or had any form of control over the Mujahedin;
25 is that correct?
1 A. That's what they told us, yes.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no other
3 questions for this witness.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to
5 Mr. Dixon, but before that, my colleague Judge has another question and
6 then I'm going to give the floor to Ms. Residovic or Mr. Dixon, if they
7 wish to take the floor.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Witness, when I asked you
10 why the soldiers were masked, you told me that they were masked so that
11 they were not recognised. Why didn't they want to be recognised, since
12 they belonged to the same brigade, the 7th Brigade? Some were not masked
13 and the others were. Why were these others masked? Why didn't they want
14 to be recognised?
15 A. Your Honour, I'm really not in a position to answer this
16 question. It would be just guessing.
17 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] During the exchange, were
18 there any Mujahedin there on the spot?
19 A. Obviously, yes; at least, the speaker of the group which was my
20 immediate contact was at the ground, as it is said -- demonstrated on one
21 of the pictures. I'm not able to tell who else among the other groups
22 was to be considered Mujahedin.
23 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] All but your contact.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm giving the floor to the
1 Defence counsel for their intervention.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. It won't be
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.
5 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. Only a few questions
6 arising from the questions that Your Honours have posed.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Dixon:
8 Q. Firstly, Mr. Schellschmidt, would you agree with me that you
9 never ever visited the 7th Brigade headquarters or its barracks?
10 A. It's true.
11 Q. Did you know that the headquarters and the barracks were situated
12 at the place in Zenica called Bilmiste?
13 A. I don't recall the name, but I recall the -- the area. It was on
14 the other bank of the river.
15 Q. On the other side of the river.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Thank you. Sir, it would be correct, then, that you never would
18 have had the opportunity to see this four-barrelled gun that you've
19 mentioned at the headquarters or at the barracks of the 7th Brigade; is
20 that right?
21 A. I didn't see it at the headquarters, because I'd never been
22 there, but I'd seen it on the street being moved around.
23 Q. Is this something that you had spoken to your colleagues about,
24 this particular gun?
25 A. Yes. We spoke about it, and we were quite clear in our judgement
1 who it belonged to.
2 Q. So would it be correct that you got your information from
3 speaking to your colleagues about this equipment?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You mentioned that you had seen this particular gun in one of the
6 photographs on a vehicle, a truck, in the lower left-hand corner of the
7 photograph; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I wonder if you could be shown, Mr. Schellschmidt, that
10 particular photograph. The number ...
11 A. I think it's number 2.
12 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, it's photo number 7.
13 Q. Is that the particular gun there that you say you'd spoken to
14 your colleagues about?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you agree with me, looking at the photograph very closely,
17 that sticking out from the various soldiers sitting on the back of that
18 truck is a single-barrel gun?
19 A. I think I can recognise at least two barrels here. It's very
20 difficult to recognise, because as a picture --
21 Q. If you look at the photograph closely and say how many barrels
22 you can identify, please.
23 A. Okay. There's one which always attaches the earth-moving machine
24 which is next to it. This is definitely recognisable.
25 Q. So would you agree with me that there's only one barrel on this
1 particular gun?
2 A. Yeah. But there's another -- as you put these questions now, I'm
3 not sure about that, because there's another vehicle just to the left
4 which is a similar type, the same type. I'm not sure what's on that one.
5 Q. The vehicles to the left, would you agree they appear to be
6 civilian vehicles of a construction nature?
7 A. Well, they're actually the same type and the same colour as the
8 vehicle with the gun on the back and the soldiers on the back.
9 No, at that time it was not possible to recognise a vehicle being
10 military or not military because they were just taken from whatever
11 resources which were available.
12 Q. But you would agree with me that the gun that we see in this
13 picture is not a four-barrelled gun.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, I'm helpfully pointed out by my legal
18 assistant that when the photograph is zoomed in, as it is now, it might
19 be possible to have a closer look at that second truck.
20 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, would you agree with me that the second truck
21 in the bottom left-hand corner appears to be a civilian vehicle and one
22 which does not have a flat back like the one where the soldiers are
23 sitting on?
24 A. Obviously yes.
25 Q. I'm grateful.
1 MR. DIXON: Thank you. The photograph can be taken from the
2 witness. There are no further questions with regard to that photograph.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to ask
4 Mr. Registrar to give us a sub-numbering for every photo. Within that
5 one number, can you give us a number for each of the photos, a subset of
6 numbers, and can you please tell us for each photo what number it is so
7 that everybody can locate every -- each particular photo in the bundle.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe you could stick to the
10 order that the Defence has introduced for these photos, which was very
12 For example, photo number 1 depicted two vans.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe you could give us a
15 different number for different photos. Maybe that would be the simplest
16 way to do.
17 Madam Usher, can you please put all the photos on the ELMO one
18 after another, and we are going to give each of them a number.
19 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I may indicate that there were one or
20 two further questions I wanted to ask, but it's certainly most --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a minute, as soon as we give
22 each of these photos a number.
23 This is number one, and the number one depicts two vehicles, one
24 of them green and another one white, and there is also a white flag and a
25 blue flag. Can we have a number for this photo.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be DH183, tab 1.
2 Sorry, I apologise: It was DH182, tab 1.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The second photo,
4 please. Turn it around.
5 In this photo, we can see a white van and there's another vehicle
6 next to it. What number will we give to this photo?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number is DH182, tab 2.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Number three.
9 We can see the mediator. And the number is ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number is DH182, tab 3.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The next one, please. The
12 photo was taken from above. We can see a very modern football stadium.
13 A number, please.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH182,
15 tab 4.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Number five, please. We can
17 see a white UN vehicle, and what is the number for this photo, please?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH182,
19 tab 5.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Photo number six, still the
21 same vehicle with the vehicle of the United Nations and some individuals
22 around the white vehicle.
23 [In English] Next.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH182,
25 tab 6.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the last photo, please.
2 This photo depicts a lorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH182,
4 tab 7.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We had to be precise on this.
6 Mr. Dixon, now you may proceed.
7 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. And if I can confirm that
8 the photograph that I showed the witness was indeed the photograph with
9 tab 7.
10 Q. Mr. Schellschmidt, only a few further questions, and that is:
11 Would you agree with me that at the time the green flag or variants of
12 the green flag were used by a number of units in Bosnia?
13 A. Yes, I have to agree.
14 Q. You said that you assumed that the soldiers that you saw present
15 outside the hotel were soldiers from the 7th Brigade, and you've
16 indicated that the four-barrelled gun, for example, was one of the
17 reasons that you used to reach that assumption. Can you confirm that
18 after the event you never verified your assumption and were not able to
19 confirm who the soldiers were after the event had occurred?
20 A. No, I had no chance to verify this.
21 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. Schellschmidt. I have no further
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now to the Prosecution. Do
24 you have any questions arising from the Judges' questions and from the
25 questions by the Defence? Mrs. Benjamin.
1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President.
2 Further examination by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:
3 Q. Colonel, in your opinion - and you have seen the pictures that
4 were shown to you - in your opinion, when would have these -- when would
5 have these pictures been taken? At the beginning of the exchange, during
6 the exchange, or upon the completion of the exchange?
7 A. I assume that these pictures have been taken towards the end of
8 the exchange, close to the moment when the hostages have been taken from
9 the scene.
10 Q. You indicated to us that the soldiers that you saw were from the
11 7th Muslim Brigade. Would you be able to give us a number as to about
12 approximately how many soldiers were there that day?
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your claim is not exactly what
14 he said. He didn't say that they were. He said that they could have
15 been. It was not really an affirmative answer, and that's why the
16 Defence counsel would like to intervene.
17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. This would
18 have been my objection.
19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Sorry.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you rephrase your question,
21 Mrs. Benjamin, and please be cautious.
22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you. And sorry.
23 Q. I'll put it this way: When you got to the site of the exchange,
24 did you see any civilian police in the area?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. Did you see any military police in the area?
2 A. Not any recognisable military police officers.
3 Q. Did you see any 3rd Corps soldiers in the area?
4 A. As there were -- as none of the persons on the scene was wearing
5 any badges, it was impossible to establish their affiliation.
6 Q. But you would have seen 3rd Corps soldiers in the area before,
7 wouldn't you have?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And at that time, would you have been able to distinguish between
10 the 3rd Corps and soldiers of other units, including the 7th Muslim
12 A. Well, normally the members of the 3rd Corps were members of the
13 staff of the corps and most of them were known to us by face.
14 Q. And at that time, you didn't see any of those in the area.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Your base, where you were based at the Internacional
17 Hotel, could you tell us if it was close to any unit -- the base of any
18 military unit.
19 A. Well, it was not too far from the 3rd Corps headquarters; only
20 two or three blocks away.
21 Q. And when you were standing at the point of exchange, was it
22 possible for you to see the base of any other unit? Could you see the
24 A. No.
25 Q. How many trucks would you have -- would you say were on the scene
1 at the time of the exchange?
2 A. Actually, I cannot give you an exact number, but there were
3 several trucks because the place next to the football stadium was
4 normally used to park trucks.
5 Q. So there would have been more than the two trucks that you would
6 have seen in the picture here today.
7 A. Yes. In one of the pictures you saw at least one or two trailers
8 being parked next to the football stadium.
9 Q. And could you tell us in those trucks who were in the trucks?
10 A. In the other trucks parked there, normally was nobody in the
12 Q. So is it your evidence that the two trucks that were in the
13 picture, the only two trucks that had military persons in it?
14 A. I can confirm only one truck, the one with the gun mounted in the
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: That will be all, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Both Defence
19 counsel were on their feet.
20 If there are no other questions, Colonel, the Chamber would like
21 to thank you for coming to The Hague to give your testimony. You have
22 answered all the questions put to you both by the Prosecution and the
23 Defence teams. You have also answered the questions put to you by the
24 three Judges. We would like to thank you once again for your
25 contribution. We would like to wish you a very safe return to your
1 country, and we wish your retirement to be as pleasant as possible.
2 We are going to ask Madam Usher to accompany you out of the
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, we have a few more
7 minutes. We are approaching to the break. But if you have nothing to
8 add, maybe we can adjourn earlier. What about tomorrow? What is the
9 plan for tomorrow?
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 The Prosecution has -- the witness who is currently scheduled to
12 be available tomorrow, Hendrik Morsink, will be available tomorrow
13 morning at 0900.
14 Mr. President, I might also add that as we had previously
15 indicated, the Prosecution will be making an oral application for two
16 witnesses to be heard via videolink from Sarajevo next week, testifying
17 the 2nd through the 4th of June. I have reason to believe that all of
18 the translations for the medical documentation concerning those witnesses
19 might be available. I do not have that documentation with me in the
20 courtroom, and as of yet that documentation has not been provided to the
21 Defence. Given time constraints, Mr. President, and particularly as it
22 relates to the technical side, the AV Department and the Registry, the
23 Prosecution would like to put our views with respect to the videolink
24 motion, oral motion, if you will, before the Trial Chamber as soon as
25 possible. Assuming that the translations are available, we could do that
1 after a break of 15 to 20 minutes.
2 Now, I understand, of course, my learned friends from the Defence
3 do not have those documents yet, so they probably would not be in a
4 position to respond.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 MR. MUNDIS: Alternatively, as my co-counsel points out,
7 Mr. President, we can do that first thing in the morning, again assuming
8 that we have those translations. I certainly don't want to lose any
9 time. But clearly the Defence will need some time in order to respond,
10 based on the documentation that we'll provide them.
11 So we leave it to the Chamber whether you'd like to adjourn for
12 the day or whether you'd like us to put our views forward with respect to
13 the videolink motion later this evening.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The only question
15 that we have with regard to the videolink conference and in the light of
16 this Tribunal's jurisprudence, the sole question concerns the medical
17 certificates. You said that you have these certificates but they
18 haven't been translated. I assume that the medical certificates are in
19 B/C/S, so it is quite possible for the Defence to familiarise themselves
20 with these certificates, since they know the language.
21 And the other question is that if you are in a position to
22 provide the medical certificates in the next few minutes - perhaps you
23 have them at hand - in such a case, the Defence might be in a position to
24 express their position after having examined these certificates, because
25 the Defence's position can only be based on the contents of the medical
2 So my question is: Do you have them with you or would you have
3 to go and fetch the documents?
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm going to let my co-counsel,
6 Ms. Benjamin, address you on this point, as she'll be the one who will
7 actually be making the oral application.
8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, at the moment there'll be two
9 applications or an application with respect to two witnesses. With
10 respect to witness number 1, the translation is already done and we have
11 it in our possession. With respect to witness number 2, we have been
12 informed a while ago that the translation has been completed. It means
13 that we have to collect it. So I think maybe during the break we might
14 be able to collect it and distribute it to the Defence and we might be
15 able to do it this afternoon.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would it be possible for the
17 Defence to tell us what their position is after having examined the
18 medical certificates?
19 Mrs. Residovic, you're not a doctor. We aren't doctors either,
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But it is
22 necessary for us to see those documents, first of all. As you know, we
23 have already had a discussion that concerned medical documents, and
24 although we weren't doctors, we were able to assume that all the
25 documents were rapidly received from one doctor, and this is what the
1 Trial Chamber decided and they then took the appropriate decision. We
2 really do need to examine the documents and, if necessary, to check what
3 they state. After the break, we could tell the Trial Chamber whether we
4 can tell you what our position is or not.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 As for the other Defence team, Mr. Ibrisimovic, you're not a
7 doctor but you are very familiar with medical documents.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
9 will be able to tell you what our position is as soon as we have examined
10 the documents.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The best thing to
12 do then is to have a 15-minute break, a short break. This will give the
13 Prosecution enough time to collect the medical certificates, provide them
14 to the Defence, and in 15 or 20 minutes' time we will resume.
15 --- Recess taken at 6.00 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session,
18 Mr. Registrar.
19 [Private session]
12 Page 7967 redacted, private session
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12 Page 7970 redacted, private session
12 Page 7971 redacted, private session
12 Page 7972 redacted, private session
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in open session.
25 But we don't have any documents before us -- I have the document
1 here. I am listening to what you have to say.
2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I was wondering, since this
3 concerns his medical condition, whether we should not go back into closed
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If you wish, we'll
6 go back into private session.
7 [Private session]
12 Page 7975 redacted, private session
12 Page 7976 redacted, private session
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I said, we have one last
7 issue to deal with, and this concerns the request made by the Defence to
8 have the report of the -- concerning the report of the Ambassador
9 Thebault. The Trial Chamber deliberated during the break, and we have
10 decided to admit this document into evidence.
11 Could the registrar give us an exhibit number, a DH number for
12 this document.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number for the English
14 version gets the exhibit -- the English version gets the exhibit number
15 DH183; and the French translation gets the exhibit number DH183/F.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Are there any other items on the agenda? I'll hand this document
19 Mr. Mundis.
20 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has nothing else for today,
21 Mr. President. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Defence has no other
23 issues to raise either?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
25 MR. DIXON: [Previous translation continues] ... Nothing further,
1 thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's almost time to adjourn, so
3 we will now adjourn and I will see everyone at the hearing at 9.00, and
4 we will render our oral decision as soon as we start the hearing
5 tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.47 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of
8 May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.