1 Tuesday, 1 June 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the
10 appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
12 counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the Prosecution,
13 Matthias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Mr. Hasan Younis.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the appearances for
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President, good
18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina
19 Residovic, Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Alexis Demirdjian, our legal
20 assistant. Thank you.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
23 Mulalic, our legal assistant.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll now resume
25 after the weekend break. The Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone
1 present in the courtroom, members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel,
2 the accused, and everyone else present in the courtroom.
3 We have a witness scheduled for today. But before we hear this
4 witness, we would like to clarify the issue of broadcasting videotape.
5 The Trial Chamber has deliberated on the matter and we believe that as of
6 Wednesday, we should broadcast as a matter of priority the videotapes
7 for which we already have a transcript available. So the videotapes that
8 have transcripts are concerned [as interpreted], and these videos should
9 be broadcast, should be shown, as a matter of priority. The Prosecution
10 should then provide us a transcript of the videos for which there are no
11 official transcripts for the moment. They should do so in good time.
12 This might pose a technical problem for the Prosecution, but if that is
13 the case it would be sufficient for the Prosecution to view the videotape
14 themselves and then they could use someone to take down what is said in
15 the video to form a transcript. This could then be provided to the
16 Judges before the video or the videos are broadcast. This is how we
17 would like these videos to be broadcast. This is a procedure we would
18 like to follow.
19 Mr. Mundis, do you see any difficulties in proceeding in this
20 matter? Do you see any difficulties that might arise as a result of this
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could briefly consult with my
23 colleague, Mr. Neuner, who is present here in the courtroom. He has
24 actually been responsible for the videotapes. If I could just have a
25 moment to consult with him, please.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Chamber's order
3 clarifying the previous order with respect to the videotapes does not
4 seem to pose a problem as we're sitting here in court today. It appears
5 as though the videos which we have selected for viewing tomorrow do, in
6 fact, have transcripts. We are -- as we speak, our team members are in
7 the process of ensuring that there are sufficient photocopies of the
8 transcripts for everyone in and around the courtroom, including the
9 interpretation booths. Because of the large number of transcripts and
10 the fact that we need to produce 11 sets of them, we may not have that
11 available by close of business today. We will, of course, endeavour to
12 ensure that everyone has a copy of the transcripts first thing in the
13 morning tomorrow to the extent that we have transcripts.
14 I should also point out, Mr. President, that there are a few of
15 the videos which do not have anyone really audibly speaking on them. So
16 there aren't obviously transcripts for those. If I could -- also just to
17 inform the Chamber and the Defence, we are -- we will provide in effect a
18 spreadsheet indicating which tapes and which segments of those tapes
19 we're planning on broadcasting. As of right now, we have 189 minutes -
20 that's a little bit more than three hours - prepared for viewing
21 tomorrow. That comes -- that material comes from a number of the
22 videotapes. And as I indicated last Friday, those are for the most part
23 excerpts and selected portions of tapes, although a couple of the tapes
24 will be played -- four of the tapes will be shown in their entirety as
25 part of that three hours and a few moments of tape that we have scheduled
1 for tomorrow. We will, of course, be in a position tomorrow to address
2 tapes to be shown Thursday and Friday if the Trial Chamber in fact does
3 want to view tapes for all three days after today of this week. But I
4 don't believe it's a problem, Mr. President, with respect to the
5 transcripts. Although again, it might not physically be in everyone's
6 hands by close of business today. We are, in fact, working on that, and
7 Mr. Neuner will actually be with your leave departing the courtroom in a
8 few moments in order to oversee that project.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Mundis. The
10 Trial Chamber thanks you for your response. You've addressed the main
11 concern, and that was to have transcripts for these videos. Naturally,
12 if there is nothing audible on certain videos, there won't be any
13 transcripts; that's obvious. You said you have prepared four videos for
14 tomorrow, and you will be able to provide everyone, the Judges included,
15 with transcripts of these videotapes.
16 Is there anything that the Defence would like to say?
17 Mr. Bourgon.
18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good
19 day, Madam Judge; good day, Your Honours.
20 Mr. President, at this point in time, the Defence would like
21 certain clarifications regarding the procedure we will be following when
22 viewing the videos. In the past, we have already expressed our position,
23 and we have stated that if we have no information on how a video was
24 produced, if we don't know who made the video, if we don't know who
25 compiled the video, who made a sort of collage, if we don't know who may
1 have written the text that appears, if we don't know who's speaking on
2 the video, if we know nothing about the images on the video, if we don't
3 when they were taken, if we don't know in which year, if we don't know
4 where the video was made, in our opinion the Defence believes that he
5 should have a minimum of information before we view such videos. We
6 don't want to be carried away by viewing a video that might seem very
7 interesting, but has no reliability whatsoever.
8 Mr. President, when the Trial Chamber rendered its decision on
9 viewing these videos, it was our understanding that the Trial Chamber was
10 requesting that the Prosecution present a witness who would appear at
11 least to authenticate the video. But as things stand, Mr. President, we
12 have no information to that effect. We believe it would be premature to
13 start viewing these videos without having the minimum information that we
14 require. I don't have all the legal arguments at hand, Mr. President,
15 but tomorrow morning I could present the Defence's arguments for one
16 final time with regard to this matter because in our opinion it's a very
17 important matter. It doesn't concern the contents of the video; it
18 concerns the reliability of the video. We're concerned that all
19 decisions taken by the Chamber should be taken on the basis of evidence
20 that has minimum reliability and whose contents have minimum reliability.
21 In this case, Mr. President, it is our opinion that if we have no witness
22 to authenticate the video, this cast doubts on the reliability. We need
23 someone to appear before the Court in order to provide this information
24 and any additional information that might support the evidence that has
25 already been admitted.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 In summary, Mr. President, the Defence would like some
2 clarifications from the Trial Chamber. Does the Trial Chamber believe
3 that a video can be admitted into evidence if we have no information as
4 to the source of the video, as to how it was made, or if we have no
5 information about the contents? We would like to know where the contents
6 come from and what it's supposed to represent. We would simply like to
7 know whether the Trial Chamber believes such evidence could be admitted.
8 If you do believe that it can be admitted into evidence, we're prepared
9 to view the video. But in our opinion, the law does not permit such
10 video material to be admitted into evidence if we don't have a minimum of
11 information. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.
13 MR. DIXON: Just one additional point, and that is if I could my
14 learned friend from the Prosecution whether the spreadsheet from the
15 videos could be available today before the end of Court so we're able to
16 view that this evening and prepare. Because our one request at the very
17 least tomorrow would be that we are able to respond to any of the videos
18 that are shown and present arguments as to why those particular videos
19 should or should not be admissible as evidence in the case. It would
20 assist greatly if we could have that information before the close of
21 court today. I'm grateful, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon, with regard
23 to what you have said -- I'll now let Mr. Mundis take the floor again.
24 The Trial Chamber spent hours deliberating on the matter of videos. Our
25 decision was quite clear. We said that these videos would be viewed, and
1 that after viewing them the Trial Chamber would reach a final decision on
2 the admissibility into evidence, on the admissibility of these videos.
3 The Trial Chamber also said that having viewed the videos, if it seemed
4 necessary to call a witness, we would naturally reserve the right to call
5 such a witness, a witness who could come to authenticate the video. As
6 you know, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence state that when the
7 Prosecution compiles a list of witnesses and exhibits, the Defence, who
8 has a list of exhibits, should at that point in time state or make any
9 legal comments it has about the documentary evidence listed. When this
10 list is compiled -- when the list was compiled, the Defence didn't make
11 any legal comments. I reminded you of this a few days ago. You made
12 some legal comments a few days ago. We took note of it.
13 On page 4, line 19 and after -- and onwards, there was a series
14 of questions put. I believe that the Prosecution, before the video is
15 broadcast, will provide all the necessary information about the date when
16 the video was made, about the author of the video, about the manner in
17 which they managed to obtain the video, and about whom they obtained it
18 from. So they will answer the questions that you put on page 4 from line
19 19 onwards. The Trial Chamber mentioned how we would proceed before the
20 video was broadcast. The Prosecution can address your issues, the issues
21 that I have referred to, and then everyone will view the video. At that
22 point in time, the Defence will be able to take the floor to repeat what
23 they have just said, what you have just said, if necessary. And then the
24 Trial Chamber will deliberate in light of the comments of both parties.
25 So roughly speaking, this is the procedure we have decided to follow. We
1 made this decision a long time ago.
2 Mr. Mundis, in light of what has been said, is there anything you
3 would like to say? You may take the floor.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I do, in fact, have the
5 spreadsheet to which I referred earlier. And if the usher could assist,
6 perhaps this could be distributed right now, and I can make a few
7 explanatory comments for the benefits of the Chamber and the Defence.
8 While that's being done, Mr. President, with respect to the
9 comments that Your Honour just made, of course the Prosecution will be in
10 a position to provide the full details with respect to each segment of
11 the videotape, of course, to the extent we have all of that information.
12 We will certainly provide the Chamber and the Defence with specific
13 information concerning each excerpt or full tape that's broadcast
14 immediately prior to that segment or tape being broadcast. I will inform
15 the Chamber and Defence that we do not have all the specific details
16 about each and every tape; however, that information which is in our
17 possession, we will, of course, describe prior to showing the tape.
18 If I could turn very quickly to the spreadsheet which has been
19 distributed. The first column under "order" sets forth the categories,
20 if you will, for which these tapes are relevant. The ERN number sets
21 forth, obviously, the number of the tape. The third column describes the
22 length of the entire tape. And the fourth column indicates the amount of
23 time, or the excerpt if it's a lengthy tape, which will be broadcast.
24 So, for example, the first tape listed is a total of 4 minutes and we
25 will play that entire tape. The second tape runs for 1 hour, 14 minutes.
1 We will play a 6-minute excerpt with the times indicated so that the
2 Defence has the opportunity to review the 6 minutes that we are proposing
3 to show from that tape, et cetera. You'll see that we've -- when we have
4 excerpted material from lengthy tapes, the precise timings where those
5 excerpts can be found on the original tapes is indicated on the
6 spreadsheet. And again, if you total up the bold numbers in the fourth
7 column, that will get you to the figure of 189 minutes which is slightly
8 longer than three hours.
9 You'll note, Mr. President, that in effect there are 11 sequences
10 set forth. These 11 sequences come from six videotapes -- excuse me,
11 eight videotapes. We are planning of shows four of those tapes in total,
12 and four of those tapes we are showing excerpts from, a total of seven
13 excerpts from those four videotapes. And that is really what the
14 spreadsheet indicates, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence has the
16 spreadsheet containing all the information that has been mentioned. The
17 Defence has understood that there are videotapes which won't be broadcast
18 in their entirety. The Prosecution will select certain excerpts to be
19 broadcast. But as the Defence has seen the videos, I assume that if the
20 Defence believes that the excerpts don't represent the truth contained in
21 the videos, in such a case the Defence can request that such sections be
22 shown. You've already seen these videos, whereas the Judges haven't.
23 But as the Defence has already seen the videos, if you believe you should
24 draw the attention of the Judges to a certain section, you should inform
25 us of the fact. We'll then see or view the entire tape. This
1 spreadsheet will enable us to find our bearings. Mr. Mundis has said
2 that before a video is broadcast, he will address the concerns that you
3 raised with regard to the reliability of the material. If you encounter
4 any difficulties while we are following this procedure, you will inform
5 us of the problem, and the Judges will decide on the action to be taken.
6 We will now call the witness into the courtroom. Madam Usher,
7 could you call the witness into the courtroom, please.
8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could while the witness is being
9 brought into the courtroom, address Your Honours with respect to one
10 issue concerning this witness. During the proofing session of this
11 witness earlier this morning, he indicated that the level of detail
12 that's contained in his written statement, it is very difficult for him
13 to recall with a high degree of specificity. The witness, Mr. President,
14 is a relatively young 67 years of age and of course is testifying about
15 events 11 years ago. I spoke with the Defence prior to this afternoon's
16 session. It was my intention to tender the witness's written statement
17 pursuant to Rule 89 (D) and then to allow him to be cross-examined by the
18 Defence. The Defence proposed another course of action, primarily
19 because the witness has a diary, if you will, of the events in question.
20 The Defence have proposed that the witness be permitted to consult his
21 diary during his direct examination. I also explained to them that I may
22 at times be required to lead the evidence of this witness, and the
23 Defence indicated that they would not necessarily object to that
24 procedure being used.
25 I simply indicate this, Mr. President, because if I have to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 refresh the witness's recollection by taking him to his written witness
2 statement, his direct examination will be substantially longer than would
3 be the case, obviously, if I were permitted to lead him and he were
4 permitted to refer to his diary. Of course, the other alternative would
5 be we would lay the foundation and then seek to tender his written
6 statement pursuant to Rule 89 (D), and then he would be cross-examined by
7 the Defence and questioned by Your Honours.
8 I simply raise this because again I anticipate that when this
9 witness was selected, it was partially due to the high level of specifics
10 in his statement, many of which he is not in a position at this time to
11 recall with a high degree of specificity. I leave it to Your Honours in
12 terms of which of those two options might be most useful for the Trial
13 Chamber. I clearly do not have a copy of his written witness statement
14 in French, so that may or may not have a bearing on a decision. But we
15 are prepared to pursue either of these two courses of action in order to
16 keep the direct examination to a bare minimum in terms of time.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will give the
18 floor to the Defence now. But according to what we have understood, you
19 are saying that this witness who is relative young as he is 67 years old,
20 no longer remembers certain facts very accurately, certain events that
21 took place over 10 years ago. And as a result, he has his diary with
22 him. By consulting this diary, it would be easier for him to answer the
23 questions put to him. In addition, you are suggesting that in order to
24 refresh the witness's memory, you would be grateful if you were given
25 leave to ask him more precise questions. You say that you have consulted
1 the Defence about this matter, and the Defence has agreed or has reached
2 an agreement with you as to how you should proceed. Naturally, the Trial
3 Chamber is always in favour of the parties reaching an agreement, and
4 we'll try to see what the situation is by asking the Defence to state
5 what its position is.
6 Mr. Bourgon, or Mrs. Residovic.
7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In fact
8 we did confer with our colleague from the Prosecution a little earlier
9 on. And we have also been able to meet the witness and to speak to him
10 very briefly. And we realised that perhaps there might be certain
11 difficulties as far as the witness's memory is concerned. And for this
12 reason, and in the interests of justice, Mr. President, we would agree
13 with the Prosecution that they should be allowed to refresh the witness's
14 memory and that the witness should be allowed to use his notes. We also
15 agree that the Prosecution could lead the witness to a certain extent in
16 order to be able to proceed as rapidly as possible.
17 And Mr. President, this would also enable us to cross-examine the
18 witness and take less time doing so than if we cross-examined the witness
19 pursuant to Rule 189 [as interpreted] -- or rather, it would be more
20 rapid than tendering the witness's statement into evidence pursuant to
21 this rule.
22 We think it would be good if we could have a copy of the
23 witness's notes. We don't know if his notes in Swedish or in English.
24 If the witness's notes in Swedish, we'll proceed without his notes. But
25 if his notes are in English, having a copy would enable us to proceed
1 more rapidly, Mr. President. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?
3 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. We had spoken to the
4 Prosecution before about this matter. In order to speed up proceedings,
5 there's no objection on our part, if the witness does require his notes
6 that he be entitled to refer to them. It might be that he doesn't need
7 them for many issues, certainly issues of a more general nature. But if
8 there are to be specific questions and he can't remember through the
9 questions being put, then there's no objection to him looking at his
10 diary or his notebook. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one matter I'd like to
13 address: As far as the written statement is concerned, if we accepted
14 the solution that has been suggested, if we agree to have the witness
15 consult his notes and if these notes are in English, we could show the
16 notes to the Defence, it would then not be necessary to tender the
17 written statement into evidence.
18 Mr. Mundis, is this what you are suggesting that we do?
19 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. It would be an either/or. We
20 would not obviously seek to tender the witness's written statement in the
21 event he were to testify primarily orally, even though he may on occasion
22 have to refer to his notebook. We would in that case not be seeking to
23 tender his written statement pursuant to Rule 89 (D). We would only do
24 that if we weren't allowed to lead the witness occasionally and to allow
25 him to refer to his diary for his direct examination.
1 Let me also very briefly mention two other things: First of all,
2 the Prosecution does not have the witness's diary, nor did we make a copy
3 of that at any point in time. I am not sure if the witness's diary is in
4 English or Swedish. I'm also assuming that if he is to be allowed to use
5 his diary, we should inform Madam Usher because my guess is he probably
6 left it in the waiting room and may not bring the diary into the
7 courtroom because I specifically advised him that he was not allowed to
8 use his diary unless, of course, Your Honours permitted that. So he
9 might not actually have it in his hands. I assume he did bring it with
10 him, though, to the witness waiting room.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is how we will
12 proceed. If necessary, we will ask the witness to fetch his notebook.
13 We will then see whether his notes are in Swedish or in English. If the
14 diary is in English, then if the witness agrees we will show the notes to
15 both parties and then we will start with the examination of the witness.
16 Very well, let's call the witness into the courtroom now, please.
17 JUDGE SWART: I understood, but maybe I'm wrong, but you would
18 also like to use his written statement in order to refresh his memory.
19 Is that correct?
20 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm not actually planning on doing that
21 unless it's absolutely clear that his diary is of no assistance. The
22 witness explained to me this morning when I met with him how his
23 statement was written up when he met with the investigator. They
24 actually sat down together with the witness's diary and used, took many
25 parts of the diary, particularly the dates and information for specific
1 dates, and incorporated that into his written statement. So my
2 understanding from discussing it with the witness is actually that the
3 diary formed the basis for the written witness statement. So if he has
4 got his diary, I don't think he would need to be referred to his written
5 statement. But if there were gaps, then again, I may need to refresh his
6 memory based on the information contained in his written witness
7 statement which, of course, the Defence has copies of.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you call the
9 witness into the courtroom now. But could you tell him to come with his
11 Mr. Bourgon.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
13 four documents to tender with regard to the other witness, Martin Garrod.
14 I don't know if you would want me to do this straightaway or after this
15 next witness. Thank you, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll do it afterwards.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 WITNESS: TORBJORN JUNHOV
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'd just
20 like to check that you can hear everyone, the interpretation. And if you
21 are able to hear, please say yes, I can hear.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called by the
24 Prosecution as witness, and in the coming minutes you're going to be
25 asked to take the solemn declaration. Before you take the solemn
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 declaration, I would like you to identify yourself. So could you please
2 give us your name and surname, your date of birth, place of birth, and
3 nationality, please.
4 THE WITNESS: My nationality is Swedish. And I was born the
5 2nd of August 1937. My name is Torbjorn Junhov.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your profession or
7 what post do you occupy? What is your job at present?
8 THE WITNESS: At present I am a pensioner, retired from the
9 military service.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You have completed your
11 professional military career with what rank?
12 THE WITNESS: Colonel.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what function did you
14 occupy in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
15 THE WITNESS: I started as a monitor attached to the original --
16 what do you call it? In Zenica. I started as a team member, and then
17 I ...
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
19 Have you already testified before a national tribunal or an
20 international tribunal or is this the first time that you are giving
22 THE WITNESS: I was here in 1998. And that's the only case I
23 have been in.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you remember the case you
25 testified in? And were you a Prosecution witness or a Defence witness?
1 THE WITNESS: I was a Prosecution witness. And the case was
2 allegation against the commander or the chief of the prison in Kacuni.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall now ask you
4 to take the solemn declaration. Read from the card that the usher will
5 show you.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
11 Prosecution, I should like to give you some information with respect to
12 the proceedings here this afternoon and your testimony. You are going to
13 first be answering questions put to you by the representative of the
14 Prosecution in the person of Mr. Mundis, who is sitting to your right.
15 And once he has completed his questions, you will be asked to respond.
16 And once he has completed all his questions, the Defence counsel will be
17 asking you questions, too. And they are sitting to your left. I think
18 that you have already met them while preparing today's testimony or
19 taking part in the courtroom here.
20 Once you have heard questions from both parties, the Judges might
21 wish you to ask you additional questions. And the Judges, as I say, can
22 also ask. So after the Defence has asked questions, the Prosecution has
23 the right to redirect, and then the Judges might wish to ask you
25 But I should like to ask you to make pauses between question and
1 answer, and then they will be a pause before the Judges ask their
2 questions, if they need to do so.
3 You have taken the solemn declaration to speak the truth, which
4 of course excludes all false testimony. I should just like to remind the
5 witness, as this is my job, that this -- should you not speak the truth,
6 then this will entail sanctions by the Tribunal. And there is another
7 ruling - but this does not apply to you - that a witness can always
8 refuse to answer a question if they consider that their answer might be
9 incriminating. In that case, the Chamber can ask the witness to answer
10 the question nonetheless, but that they guarantee him immunity for the
11 testimony he gives.
12 The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that the facts that
13 you're going to testify about span a period of 10 years, and that of
14 course you might have forgotten certain details that are contained in
15 your written statement. The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that
16 you have in your possession a diary tracing, if I can put it that way,
17 the events as they came to pass, the events that you wrote down in that
18 diary. Now, we can see that you have something beside you and we would
19 like to ask you whether that notebook is in Swedish or in English? The
20 entries, are they in Swedish or in English?
21 THE WITNESS: It's mixed.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mixed. Very well.
23 Now, could you take the diary out of the case it's in. Is it a
24 lengthy book? How many pages, would you say?
25 THE WITNESS: I have -- the diary is day-by-day notes from my
1 arrival in the beginning of April and ends up on the 21st of June. And I
2 also have another notebook, what I call the "black book" with notes from
3 the same period.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the black book, is that in
5 English, Swedish, or mixed again?
6 THE WITNESS: It's also mixed.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you mind if you give us
8 those books for a moment so that the Prosecution and Defence counsels can
9 take a look at them, at the black-book notebook and the diary, to
10 facilitate with the questioning? Would you have anything against having
11 Madam Usher take the two notebooks to show them to the Prosecution and
12 the Defence counsel before we start the examination-in-chief? And of
13 course, if you need to do so later on, then you'll be able to consult
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have nothing against that. But I would like
16 to inform you that during the investigations that lasted for I think two
17 or three days, the investigator from the Tribunal together with me, we
18 went through all these notes and all these notes are included in my
19 written testimony. Not all, but the most essential of them.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the procedure is such
21 that it is purely oral. So the written statement was not a priori given
22 to witnesses for the purpose of them answering the questions posed; in
23 theory, the witness is expected to answer questions without looking at
24 any document, including his written statement. Now, of course, in
25 particular cases such as your own, you do have in your possession these
1 two notebooks which will assist you in finding your way in responding to
2 the questions.
3 So the Defence wish to have a look at those documents. Now, do
4 you have anything against us showing the Defence counsel the black-book
5 notebook and the other one, and they will hand it back to you
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Usher, would
9 you please take the two documents and show them to the counsel. Thank
11 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
13 procedure has not been perhaps explained as clearly as possible. Perhaps
14 we could have a photocopy.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If we need to photocopy this,
16 we'll have to adjourn, and that will take a long time. At least an hour.
17 So you can take your time to have a look at the two documents as they're
18 handed to you.
19 Of course, everything that is in Swedish, you won't be able to
20 understand. But...
21 THE WITNESS: I can assist.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as the witness has just
23 said, he is ready and willing to assist.
24 Mr. Junhov, your two notebooks, how many pages would you say in
25 total in them?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE WITNESS: It's three months, and notes for almost every day.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how many pages would you
3 say? 50? 100? 200?
4 THE WITNESS: Around 150, I think.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 150 pages, you say. Because
6 there is yet another solution and that is to photocopy them. But then,
7 of course, the photocopy would mean that you agree to the existence of a
9 THE WITNESS: I can see no obstacle or hinder for that. It's a
10 question of time.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.
12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that if we
13 look at the three months, there are two pages for one day, at least 100
14 pages. So if we had them, this would be very useful. And of course, the
15 witness could keep the notebooks.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the best course would
17 be to make a photo -- make photocopies of them, which would mean an
18 adjournment of 15 minutes. And we're going to ask the Registrar to help
19 us out, to have four photocopies made, one for the Prosecution, one set
20 for the -- or rather, two sets for the two Defence teams, and one set of
21 photocopies for the Chamber, for the Judges. So we're going to adjourn
22 for 15 minutes, which will give us enough time to photocopy the
23 notebooks, and we will reconvene in 15 minutes' time.
24 --- Break taken at 3.03 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 3.28 p.m.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give the
2 notebooks back to the witness now, these documents, along with the
3 photocopy. The Chamber doesn't need the photocopy at present. So now I
4 hope that everybody has received a set of photocopies which will allow
5 the parties to put their questions.
6 And having said that, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Mundis
7 without further ado, and of course we have set the frameworks for the
8 general questioning and examination-in-chief.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Junhov.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. You told us in response to one of the preliminary question by the
14 Trial Chamber you had a career in the military. Can you tell us, please,
15 which branch of the Swedish military you served in.
16 A. I started at 19 years old in 1956. I volunteered for the Swedish
17 Air Force and got training as a navigator. And after a number of years
18 in flying service, I was appointed to the schools and took my officer
19 degree in 1964. And after that, I served in different units up until
20 1968 when I went to the War and Staff College for three years' studies.
21 And during the 1970s, I served in the Swedish military headquarters
22 dealing with studies in long-term planning, cooperation with the civilian
23 defence and these kind of questions.
24 Then I had a period of service in a unit, and also in a regional
25 staff as an operational officer. And for four years in the second part
1 of the 1980s I was a professor at the Staff and War College. And I was a
2 professor responsible for strategy, security policy, military history,
3 and human rights. And then again some years of service in the regional
4 military staff as head of the operational part of the staff; and then
5 back to the military academy as a professor where we trained mostly
6 civilian officers within the Swedish organisation that is called the
7 total defence. That has very much to do with nongovernmental
8 organisation, cooperation in wartime, and how to cope with the different
9 problems that occurs in the wartime.
10 And then after that session, I was back again in the regional
11 staff up until the spring 1993 when I was asked by the military
12 headquarters if I could go as a civilian monitor to the ECMM operation in
13 former Yugoslavia. So I agreed to that and served there for three
14 months. And then when I came back, I have been occupied mostly with
15 teaching people from the Baltic states within the framework of the
16 Partnership For Peace agreement with Swedish authorities and our
17 neighbours. And then I retired 1997. And now I'm running a company
18 dealing with -- I am an editor, local history books and so on.
19 Q. Mr. Junhov, I'd like to focus your attention now on the period of
20 time when you were an ECMM monitor. Can you tell us what kind of
21 specialised briefings or training that you had prior to your deployment
22 as an ECMM monitor.
23 A. Shortly after I was appointed as a monitor, we were called up.
24 We were a group of, if I remember, eight Swedish officers who were
25 planning to go to former Yugoslavia. We had two or three days' briefings
1 in Stockholm on the situation in general in the Balkans was presented and
2 discussed. And we also had got some equipment and so on. And we had
3 diplomatic passports. We were unarmed and all dressed in white clothes.
4 And then we went down to the headquarters in Zagreb, Hotel I, where the
5 ECMM headquarters occupied the whole hotel. And during three or four
6 days staying there, we were briefed on rules of operation and how to
7 handle communication equipment and how to drive the cars. And then I was
8 appointed as a monitor to Zenica. And that was first time in my life I
9 heard the word "Zenica." They took us by a very, very rough journey down
10 to Split and stayed with a couple of days with a logistics base for the
11 ECMM in Split. And then we had, I think, five failed attempts to take us
12 into Central Bosnia. It was wintertime and totally blocked roads, either
13 with snow or by military activities.
14 Q. Sir, can you please tell us the approximate date, including the
15 month and year, that you arrived in Zenica.
16 A. I think it was -- it was in -- I left home in the Easter days,
17 1993. And if I remember correct, I arrived in Zagreb 25th, 26th of
18 March. And then I think my first day in Zenica was 31st of May -- or
20 Q. And which year was that, sir?
21 A. 1993.
22 Q. And how long did you remain in Zenica? Or perhaps the other way
23 to phrase it is: When did you leave Zenica?
24 A. I left -- I had one week holiday, the first week of June. And
25 then I left definitely the 21st of June.
1 Q. Again, 1993?
2 A. 1993, yes.
3 Q. Other than this one-week holiday in the first week of June 1993,
4 did you remain in Zenica for that entire period?
5 A. Yes. Zenica or in the area.
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit about your specific
7 duties and responsibilities as an EC monitor in Central Bosnia.
8 A. Yes, I would like to start with my first impressions when we came
9 across the mountains from Split into Central Bosnia and I saw all these
10 damaged houses and empty houses, no sign of life. And I started to think
11 "what has happened to these people?" And thinking of Geneva Conventions
12 and human rights and how to behave in the war and so on. And when I
13 reported for the first time to the head of the -- our CC, the French
14 diplomat, Jean-Pierre Thebault, we had dinner together, sat up talking
15 almost the whole night, the first night I was there and he explained to
16 me what the situation looked like in Central Bosnia. And I, of course,
17 didn't understand immediately that it was a civil war and a lot of
18 warring parties engaged in this war.
19 Quite soon, I think it was the second or the third day of my
20 being there, I was appointed as a member of the Busovaca Joint
21 Commission. The war had started in Busovaca, as I explained. And the
22 ECMM had an intention to reunify the Busovaca Municipality. We have a
23 lot of meetings there. And after some weeks, I was appointed as a
24 chairman of this commission. And then we also established similar
25 commissions in Vitez and in Travnik. I was engaged in that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 The first intention was to reunify the split municipalities.
2 Q. Sir, if you could tell us, you've mentioned the Busovaca, Vitez,
3 and Travnik commissions. How many commissions in total were operating
4 during the period you were in Central Bosnia?
5 A. It's hard to say because some of them were just intentions. They
6 never started. We also had an ambition to create a joint operational
7 command in Travnik. And that was in the beginning of June 1993 with the
8 HVO and the BiH officers, and a joint command post in the PTT building in
9 Travnik. But that joint command in practice never worked, mostly due to
10 lack of communications.
11 Q. We'll return later to the joint command in Travnik. I'd like to
12 ask you a few questions about the Busovaca commission. I take it from
13 your answer that that is the commission that you were the most familiar
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall the names of the representatives of the various
17 parties or groups that attended the meetings at the Busovaca commission?
18 A. I don't remember the names of the local persons. There was an
19 HVO battalion commander with a command post in central Busovaca. I don't
20 remember his name. There were different so-called local commanders. I
21 regarded them as some kind of elderly people from the villages around in
22 the municipality. And from the military side, there was -- the HVO
23 representative was Mr. Nakic and from the BiH, it was Mr. Merdan. And
24 these two were, as I understood, second in command in their
25 representative organisations. And they also to and fro had assistance by
1 officers, two, three, four officers that were sometimes present and
2 sometimes absent.
3 Q. Sir, just to clarify. When you say that Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan
4 were the second in command in their representative organisations, can you
5 tell us the organisations that they were the second in command of, if you
7 A. Yes. To start with the Croat side, they had an organisation
8 called HVO. The commander of this operational zone, Central Bosnia I
9 think it was called, the commander was Colonel Blaskic. And Mr. Merdan
10 was his second in command.
11 And the BiH commander was Mr. Hadzihasanovic. He had his
12 headquarters in the steel factory in Zenica. And Mr. Merdan was his
13 second in command [sic].
14 Q. Sir, just to clarify, a few moments ago you said that
15 Colonel Blaskic's second in command was Mr. Merdan.
16 A. Yes. No, Nakic.
17 Q. Mr. Nakic. So Blaskic's number 2 was Nakic.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Hadzihasanovic's second in command was Merdan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recall whether other than the representatives, various
22 representatives, of the two parties, what other organisations were
23 represented at the Busovaca Joint Commission?
24 A. It differed from time to time. But we all -- almost always had
25 representatives from the ICRC. Now and then, there were people from the
1 UNHCR. And then now and then, local politicians were present. Sometimes
2 police officers were present. And the meetings mostly took place in the
3 municipality building in Busovaca.
4 Q. And of course, persons such as yourself, EC monitors, were also
6 A. Yes, of course. With interpreters and...
7 Q. Were there ever any individuals from other western military
8 organisations present at any of these meetings?
9 A. Yeah. We also had almost all the time liaison officers from the
10 UNPROFOR. And mainly, it was from the British Battalion in Vitez.
11 Q. Sir, other than yourself, who were any other persons from the
12 ECMM who may have occasionally attended the Busovaca Joint Commission
14 A. When I arrived in Zenica, there was a Danish monitor called
15 Friis-Pedersen, something, who was the chairman of the commission. And
16 after some two, three weeks, I was replacing him as a chairman of the
17 committee. I had a German monitor called Schellschmidt, I think his name
18 was, Dieter Schellschmidt. And I had later on a Dutch monitor, Henk
19 Morsink. A Canadian monitor also took part now and then. Sorry, I don't
20 remember his name.
21 Q. Sir, do you remember some of the topics that were discussed at
22 the Busovaca Joint Commission?
23 A. It was a great variety of issues, but mostly it was problems with
24 telecommunications, complaints about the broken lines. Sometimes it was
25 water-supply problems. Of course, security problems. The Muslim part of
1 the former Busovaca Municipality board, they had left or been forced
2 out - I don't know which - out of Busovaca, and they had some kind of
3 headquarters about 15 kilometres south of Busovaca in a place called
4 Kacuni. And there -- sometimes we met with them, or sometimes we picked
5 them up and took them into Busovaca to a meeting with the Croat part
7 Q. Was the Busovaca Joint Commission during the time that you were
8 present involved in any exchange of prisoners?
9 A. Yeah, the commission as such was involved. But exchange or
10 release, the word -- vocabulary changed now and then. But the members of
11 the commission were, of course, involved in these negotiations and also
12 the execution of decisions such as release of detainees or exchange of
14 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall the specifics of any of the prisoner
15 exchanges that the commission was involved in, particularly in the first
16 few weeks after you arrived in Central Bosnia?
17 A. My first big business, so to say, was the prison in Kacuni -
18 Kaonik, north of the centre of Busovaca. Kaonik prison was the name.
19 When the -- starting this operation was -- the people from the Red Cross
20 asked us if we knew where prisoner or detainees may be held in this area.
21 And I remember, together with the German monitor Dieter Schellschmidt, we
22 travelled around in Busovaca area and asked people "Do you know something
23 about some prisoner camp" or something like that. And finally, we got
24 information that there was such a camp in Kaonik. So we went there. And
25 the guard denied us to -- he didn't let us in. And we asked who can give
1 us permissions. And he advised us to contact the chief of police in
2 Busovaca. So we went there and got permission to come in.
3 And that was -- I have no idea how many people there was, but it
4 was at least 20, 30, 40 people detained. And when we asked the commander
5 there "Why are these men detained?" "He was a criminal." "Is he accused
6 with something?" "No, not yet." Some of them were detained for murder,
7 a large variety of reasons for persons being held there.
8 And in one cell, we found I think it was seven young persons and
9 I asked "Who are these? What's with these kind of people?" And if I
10 remember correctly, the commanding officer there said they were
11 criminals, and they were foreigners. And then I went into the cell and
12 start talking to the youngsters there. And they explained to me in -- it
13 was very large language problem, but I understood that some of them was
14 from Libya and some from Egypt, some from Saudi Arabia, and some from
15 Afghanistan. And I asked the commander again, "Why are you holding these
16 people?" And then he explained that they had been found, as I
17 understood, connecting to a car accident, and they had a lot of weapons
18 and munitions in the car, and they also had a lot of money.
19 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall approximately how much money you were
20 told that they had in their possession?
21 A. I was told it was 30 million US dollars. And I asked "Where are
22 the suitcases with the money?" "I don't know," was the answer. And I
23 asked him, "Have you seen it?" No, he hadn't seen it. "I heard it from
24 this one who heard it from this one." It was, in my opinion, a kind of
1 Q. Did you have any discussion about these -- or with these
2 foreigners as to why they were in Bosnia?
3 A. I asked the question: "Why are you here?" "What are you doing?"
4 And they said "We are missionaries".
5 Q. And what did you interpret that to mean when they told you they
6 were missionaries?
7 A. I had my opinion of what a missionary is, a person who is
8 spreading some kind of religious belief.
9 Q. Based on what the person from the prison told you, that they had
10 been arrested with weapons, did you ask them about weapons and why
11 missionaries would need weapons?
12 A. I don't remember if I put that question. But to me it, seemed to
13 be just as I said, much more of rumours than real proof of some criminal
15 Q. Mr. Junhov, was the first time that you had seen any of these
16 foreigners in Central Bosnia?
17 A. Yes, it was.
18 Q. Was that the last time you saw any such foreigners in Central
20 A. In that situation, it was the only opportunity to see them. But
21 I think when we saw, for instance, in the streets in Travnik in the
22 beginning of June, I think it was not the Bosnian people there.
23 Q. What makes you believe that these were not Bosnian people that
24 you saw in early June in Travnik?
25 A. You had got some experiences during the months how Bosniak people
1 were dressed and how they behaved. And these people we saw in Travnik,
2 they were -- they didn't look like Bosniaks. Many of them wore a lot of
3 big beards, and often they had green - what do you call it - scarves.
4 And very mixed uniforms and heavy weapons.
5 Q. Other than the time that you saw these people -- let me rephrase.
6 How many times in Travnik did you see such people?
7 A. I can't say a figure, but it was several times.
8 Q. Did you see such people that you might characterise as foreigners
9 on other occasions in Bosnia; and if so, where?
10 A. Of course, it's hard to say because my memory is bad. It's 11
11 years ago. But if I say like this, among the colleagues of monitors, we
12 had a common opinion that there existed such kind of peoples in the area.
13 Q. What did you base or what was this common opinion based on?
14 A. It must be based on -- we saw them. And we heard people talking
15 about them.
16 Q. Do you know what these people were doing in Central Bosnia?
17 A. I have a very personal opinion. And I don't know if the Court is
18 interested in hearing that.
19 Q. If you could please tell us what your opinion is.
20 A. Yes. We had a very hard job to get to reunify the split
21 municipalities. And as soon as we had succeeded in getting an agreement
22 signed for a cease-fire or something like that, or freedom of movement,
23 only the night after or some days after that it happens, things, like
24 burning stable in the middle of the night; some person was killed
25 by - how do you say it - anonymous people who moved around in the area.
1 And in my opinion, it was some kind of people who did not wish to have
2 the problems solved. They were carrying out -- what we heard, the word
3 jihad. Bosnia jihad, the holy war in Bosnia. I don't know what kind of
4 people who did this kind of actions, but it happened.
5 Q. Mr. Junhov, I'd like to take you back now to the persons that you
6 told us were detained in Kaonik, the foreigners in Kaonik prison. Were
7 these individuals ever the subject of discussions at the Busovaca Joint
9 A. Of course there were questions, perhaps more in general terms, of
10 the detained people and to release the detainees, and also the term
11 "prison of war" was used. And when we talked about prisoners of war,
12 there were very often used the phrase "to exchange." But in the case of
13 detainees, the phrase was used "to release" them. People who are held
14 without legal support.
15 Q. Do you recall any instances at the Busovaca Joint Commission
16 where Mr. Merdan spoke about the need to have such foreign fighters
18 A. I don't know -- remember if it was in Busovaca Joint Commission,
19 but at some meetings with the top personalities in Central Bosnia the
20 question was raised. And there was also a proposal that all these Muslim
21 detainees should be gathered in the prison in Zenica that was controlled
22 by the BiH.
23 Q. Do you recall -- when you say "top personalities in Central
24 Bosnia," who are you referring to?
25 A. On the military side, it was Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
1 And they had political, if you call them, advisors or -- and also, of
2 course, members of their military staffs.
3 Q. Based on your experience with the senior leaders of the 3rd Corps
4 of the ABiH including Mr. Hadzihasanovic and Mr. Merdan, did you gather
5 the impression that they wanted the foreign fighters to be released from
6 HVO control?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you get any idea or have any understanding as to why they
9 wanted these foreign fighters released?
10 A. No so to say written documents about that, but again, my personal
11 opinion is that they were regarded as some kind of resources for the
12 activities in Central Bosnia.
13 Q. What kind of activities, Mr. Junhov?
14 A. There was a civil war going on there.
15 Q. Do you recall on approximately how many occasions you met with
16 Mr. Merdan in the joint commissions or otherwise?
17 A. During my three months, I met him regularly, two, three, four
18 times a week.
19 Q. And in total, approximately how many times?
20 A. Around 50 perhaps.
21 Q. And on how many occasions did you meet with General
23 A. About a dozen times, 10 to 12. I met him in his office, and we
24 met in our office. And I met him with some social activities. And I met
25 with him on this, so to say, top-level meetings. I remember one such
1 meeting in Kakanj, and one meeting also in -- I don't remember the name,
2 north of Kiseljak. I don't remember the names. But I saw him 10 or 12
3 times during my visit there.
4 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall on any occasion whether General
5 Hadzihasanovic discussed with you the release of the foreign fighters
6 from Kaonik prison?
7 A. No, not he personally. But Mr. Merdan took up this question now
8 and then.
9 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall any discussions where General
10 Hadzihasanovic told you or perhaps hinted that efforts would be taken to
11 free those individuals from Kaonik prison?
12 A. I can't say that.
13 Q. Mr. Junhov, were you familiar with a subordinate unit of the
14 3rd Corps called the 7th Muslim Brigade?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you became aware of that unit.
17 A. Yeah. The first time was at an initial briefing in Zenica. We
18 were presented with an organisation sheet of the 3rd Army Corps, BiH Army
19 Corps, and there was in the normal military matter a square,
20 7th Operational Brigade I think it was called. And there was some
21 asterisks and a footnote was "all-Muslim unit." And I recall that I made
22 some reflection, BiH Army. Isn't that -- all of that army Muslim units?
23 But obviously, by some reason this 7th Brigade was earmarked as some
24 special unit.
25 Q. Do you know, sir, who was in that unit or how that unit recruited
2 A. I have no proof of it. But the common opinion within ECMM was
3 that it was some kind of, say, French Foreign Legion, people recruited to
4 this unit from abroad.
5 Q. What was the purpose of the 7th Muslim Brigade? What type of
6 role did it fulfil within the 3rd Corps?
7 A. I think it's obvious by the name, operational unit, operational
8 brigade. They operated in the area.
9 Q. Where did they operate?
10 A. In the area of Central Bosnia. Other units, they had very often
11 three-figure names, 309th Brigade. They were local units, more or less
12 like some kind of home guard or home defence forces. But the
13 7th Operational Brigade was operating in the whole area, in my opinion.
14 Q. Mr. Junhov, did there come a time when any of these foreign
15 fighters visited you in your office?
16 A. Yeah. That was -- I can't remember exactly the date of the
17 event, but after some days of negotiations about releasing of detainees,
18 some Croat officers were kidnapped. Some were in the Travnik-Vitez area,
19 four or five officers, major -- captain/major level. And we got report
20 of that. And then one or two days after that there appeared a person in
21 the ECMM office. He was dressed with a turban, and he had a cotton
22 plugged into the mouth so he talked very strange. And he handed over a
23 videotape and explained that it was a message from the captured Croatian
24 officers. So we took this videotape and drove by the car over to Vitez
25 and handed it over to Colonel Blaskic's office.
1 Q. Did you, sir, ever see that videotape?
2 A. I never saw the videotape, but I heard from officers in the Vitez
3 staff that it was a message from these captured officers, and they prayed
4 or -- to assist to release them.
5 Q. Did you ever see the individual who brought you this videotape on
6 any other occasion?
7 A. Yeah. The same individual appeared some days later with a new
8 tape. That was handled in the same way, so to say. We had no equipment
9 in our office to see the tapes. We had no tape recorder or tape
10 equipment. So in the same way, we handed it over to the Croat side.
11 Q. Do you know what if anything was done as a result of these
13 A. Yeah, there were new negotiations and discussions what to do with
14 these. And of course, from the Muslim side, there was talk of exchange,
15 to exchange, to release these HVO officers and detained Muslim people.
16 Q. And in fact, did an exchange take place?
17 A. Yes, it did. And again, I don't remember exactly the date. But
18 I was some kind of spider in that net, and I had a command post in what
19 we call the blue factory just out Busovaca. I think it was a factory
20 that made some kind of wood equipment. And then we had spotted where the
21 Muslim detainees were held and also where the Croat officers were held.
22 And then we made a network with the assistance of the BritBat for
23 communication reason and for transportation of the people. And then both
24 sides had representatives on every place where the detainees existed.
25 And in the blue factory in Busovaca, I had what I understood as
1 some kind of commander of this Muslim force. And he got reports from his
2 people out in the area, and finally the Muslim detainees were transported
3 to the blue factory; and from there, they were loaded into BritBat's APCs
4 and transported down to the coast, to Split, I think, for further
5 travelling out of the region.
6 Q. When you say, sir, the Muslim detainees, were those local
7 individuals or were those foreigners?
8 A. They must have been foreigners since they were transported out of
9 the country.
10 Q. Sir, are you aware at any time during the period you were in
11 Central Bosnia of anything that took place in the village of Miletici?
12 A. Miletici. Could you help me to place it on the map, or...
13 Q. Let me draw your attention --
14 MR. MUNDIS: If you could, Mr. President, with the assistance of
15 the usher, I will ask the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 148.
16 Q. First, Mr. Junhov, if you could please look at the second page,
17 the names of the individuals who completed this report.
18 A. Erik Friis-Pedersen was the Danish, and he was my - should I
19 say - predecessor of the Busovaca Joint Commission. And Allan Laustsen
20 was Danish policeman and reserve officer of the Danish army.
21 Q. And sir, does your name appear on this document?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'd like to draw your attention --
24 MR. MUNDIS: And Mr. President, this is available on Sanction if
25 people would like to view it on their screen.
1 Q. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 2 C of this
3 A. "The Croat village Miletici. Five inhabitants were murdered by
4 shots and knives yesterday. They were all men, aged between
5 approximately 20 and 60."
6 Q. Sir, having seen this document, does that refresh your memory as
7 to the events in Miletici?
8 A. Yeah. It was, again, some rumours that made Mr. Merdan and
9 Mr. Nakic interested in going to this place. And Friis-Pedersen was
10 together with them, and I think they were transported there by BritBat,
11 or if they drove up there by the ECMM vehicle I don't know. But they
12 found a small village high up in the -- if I remember correctly, high up
13 in the Bila valley where -- this is written by Friis-Pedersen, of course,
14 because he was the monitor who was there. These people were killed, and
15 according to witnesses, as Arab-speaking men dressed in ordinary
17 Q. Sir, if I could just interrupt you, because actually what I'd
18 like to talk to you about is that relationship between Mr. Merdan and
19 Mr. Nakic. According to the document you have before you, Prosecution
20 Exhibit 148, Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan went with Mr. Friis-Pedersen to the
21 village of Miletici.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In light of the fact that these two individuals, Mr. Nakic and
1 Mr. Merdan, were from what might be characterised as warring parties --
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. -- can you explain to us a little bit about why the two of them
4 would go together to visit this village?
5 A. I think they were, both of them, driven by some wish to get
6 facts. They were members of the Busovaca Joint Commission, or in this
7 case, joint operational centre in Vitez. And they heard rumours
8 something had happened up there. And they say, "okay, let's go there and
9 find out what has happened."
10 Q. Can you characterise the relationship between these two men based
11 on your attending numerous meetings of the Busovaca Joint Commission with
12 them. How did they get along together? How did they interact? These
13 types of things.
14 A. Let's say it was not a very friendly attitude, but it was some
15 kind of professional, cooperative attitude. They had a wish or a will to
16 find facts and to solve problems. And they realised, of course, that
17 they had to do it together.
18 Q. Are you aware of any other instances where the two of them,
19 perhaps with an ECMM monitor, went to other places where there were
20 rumours or allegations of crimes being committed?
21 A. Yeah. I was together with these two officers in a small village.
22 I think it's called Ostici, south of Busovaca, that had been -- there
23 were no living people left there. And it was a Muslim village. And I
24 noticed in the refugee -- the ICRC camp in Busovaca they had registered
25 people from this village who were refugees. And we went there to
1 investigate what and found out what happened in that village. I think
2 you have a similar report on that occasion.
3 Q. That document, sir, can now be returned. Madam Usher can
4 retrieve that.
5 Let me ask you a few questions about Mr. Merdan. Based on again,
6 the numerous times you met with him, can you tell us a little bit about
7 Mr. Merdan as a military man, as a deputy commander of the ABiH
8 3rd Corps.
9 A. I found him professional, and he was in my opinion quite a
10 balanced person. I never saw him - what do you say - in effect or that
11 he lost his temper. And he always listened carefully what we said. He
12 was a professional officer, in my opinion.
13 Q. Do you know or based on what you observed or saw, did you come to
14 any conclusions about what his specific role was in the 3rd Corps, what
15 he was doing?
16 A. Yeah, I have, of course - again it's a personal opinion; I can't
17 prove it by some written documents - but as he was so often together with
18 us, as Mr. Nakic was out in the area controlled by the other part, of
19 course when he came back to his office, he reported what he had seen and
20 learned. So he was some kind of -- I think in my written statement, I
21 have quoted a "legal spy", I think I used the expression. But of course,
22 his job was to contribute to these local commissions could work, and he
23 was authorised by his commanders, of course, to take part in this job.
24 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you also remember in your written statement
25 indicating that Mr. Merdan was the "eyes and the ears for the commander,
1 General Hadzihasanovic"?
2 A. Yeah, that's why I said he was a legal spy. But don't
3 misinterpret this expression "legal spy." It's quoted in my written. He
4 had -- that was his job, to cooperate with us and with the UNPROFOR and
5 other organisations in the area.
6 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the type of commander General
7 Hadzihasanovic was, again, based on the 10 to 12 times that you met with
8 him at various places during the time period you were in Central Bosnia.
9 A. It's almost the same impression that I got from Mr. Merdan.
10 Hadzihasanovic was -- in my view, he was a professional officer. He was,
11 could you say, polite or -- I went several times to his staff to complain
12 about observations we had made. And sometimes I met with him personally
13 or sometimes with some of his staff members. And it was no problem to
14 get in contact, and we discussed the problem. I also met him, as I
15 mentioned before, a couple of times in social activities. There was a
16 choir concert when he invited us personally to go there. And we also
17 were invited to some kind of party. And of course, he behaved like a
18 civilised officer. And no problems to discuss whatsoever.
19 Q. Did you get the sense or the impression from your meetings with
20 him that he was fully informed as to the situation on the ground? And
21 did he seem to you to be prepared to discuss issues when you had meetings
22 with him?
23 A. Not always. During the weeks before the Guca Gora, there were
24 fightings going on up in the area. And when I was denied by Muslim
25 people at the checkpoint outside Zenica, I was denied to go into the area
1 to see what's going on, so I went down to the army corps staff and
2 complained about that. And I got an escort from the army corps staff by
3 some military police. And again, when we tried to enter the area, we run
4 into a road blockation with, as I understood - what do you call them -
5 Muslim foreigners or soldiers fired in the air and didn't allow us to go
6 into the area. And then I went back again to the army corps staff and
7 complained about that. And then I got the answer "unit's out of
9 Q. Did you on any other occasion discuss with General Hadzihasanovic
10 the foreign fighters that you believed were in the 3rd Corps area of
12 A. Not person to person, but in the army corps staff and in the
13 joint commission meetings there were such kind of discussions.
14 Q. What was the response of the 3rd Corps representatives when this
15 subject matter was discussed at these joint commission meetings?
16 A. They never denied the existence of it, but very often declared
17 that there were units operating on their own hands and out of control of
18 the command, commanding organisation.
19 Q. Do you recall which unit or units they were referring to when
20 they indicated that these units were not in their hands or out of
22 A. Normally, people understood that when these type of actions were
23 taken, it was understood that it was people belonging to the 7th Brigade.
24 But, of course, I did not have possibilities to identify the individual
25 soldiers or men, the military insignias also. So I have no juridical
1 proof that it was. But every people that we met with and talked to said,
2 "Oh, it's the 7th Brigade."
3 Q. Do you recall what your thoughts about that were at the time,
4 that this 7th Muslim Brigade was not under the command of the 3rd Corps?
5 A. I didn't understand the question.
6 Q. Do you recall thinking about the fact that the 7th Muslim Brigade
7 was not under the 3rd Corps command? What did you think about that when
8 you were told?
9 A. My immediate reflection was "obviously there exists a unit that
10 is operating in the area." That was out of question. "And who is
11 commanding them?" That's the problem. The person who is responsible for
12 the area is the commander of the 3rd Army Corps. And this unit was
13 operating in his area and also, of course, in the area controlled by the
14 Croat side.
15 Q. Do you remember the response that you gave in your written
16 statement to the investigators about the 7th Muslim Brigade and their
17 role within the 3rd Corps?
18 A. Could you read it for me.
19 Q. Let me read you two or three sentences and see if this triggers
20 any recollections in your mind. You say "I was under the impression that
21 the Mujahedin belonged to the 7th Muslim Brigade, but Merdan also stated
22 that the 7th Muslim Brigade was out of control. In my opinion, it is
23 strange to claim that the only mobile unit within the 3rd Corps could be
24 out of control. 7th Muslim Brigade was the elite unit, and obviously the
25 most important unit of the 3rd Corps."
1 Do you remember saying that to the investigators?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Again, can I ask you, other than what you said here, if you have
4 any independent recollections as to what you thought when you were told
5 these kinds of things.
6 A. As I remember it, it was some kind of established opinion that
7 the 7th Muslim Brigade had some kind of special standing in the
8 organisation, or if we say they had -- if we call it more freedom of
9 movement in the area or... They seemed to me to operate more or less on
10 their hand. Or if they had some orders from the army corps I don't know
11 because I never seen it.
12 Q. But you've told us they seemed to move throughout the area of
13 responsibility of the 3rd Corps.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Sir, I have just a few final questions. I would like to ask you
16 about any destruction that you personally witnessed during the time you
17 were in Bosnia.
18 A. If you don't -- if you accept the dating might fail, but the
19 mosque in Ahmici, I think it was the 9th of April or something like that.
20 That was one of these grave events conducted by HVO special forces. And
21 then I saw a number of churches primarily in the Travnik area, Catholic
22 church, an old church in the central Travnik close to the marketplace. I
23 went there because I had heard from someone that they had an interpreter
24 that might be willing to assist us. So I went there to ask for this man,
25 and then a female officer in the parish living close to the church asked
1 me if she could show me inside the church. So, of course, so I joined
2 her and found much of the inventories in the church were destroyed.
3 Sculpture of the saints were decaptured [sic], paintings were cut in
4 pieces, furnitures were broken, windows blown out. To me, total
5 meaningless destruction of holy things, holy...
6 And there was another church, I don't remember the name, just
7 east of Travnik. It seemed to have been some kind of monastery or
8 perhaps a school because a lot of books were thrown out of the windows.
9 The inventory was broken. And this church was also shelled, hit by
10 mortars, grenades.
11 Q. Sir, if I could interrupt you for just a moment. I'd like to
12 return to the church you were telling us about in Travnik with the damage
13 that you described. Do you know which church that was?
14 A. Yeah, it was a Catholic church. I don't know if there were more
15 than one Catholic church in Travnik.
16 Q. You told us -- and I ask you this again because it wasn't
17 reflected in the transcript. The sculptures of the saints, can you tell
18 us what was done to the sculpture of the saints?
19 A. They were broken, heads off.
20 Q. Their heads were cut off.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Someone cuts the heads off the statues?
23 A. Yeah, by some -- I don't know. Broken, destructed.
24 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the approximate time period in 1993 when
25 you were at the Catholic church in Travnik, day or perhaps month.
1 A. It must have been in the second half of May or first day of June.
2 Q. Did you receive at any point any information as to who had
3 destroyed or damaged the Catholic church in Travnik?
4 A. The person who guided me in the church, it was totally obvious
5 that it was Muslim foreigners or Muslim soldiers.
6 Q. What makes you say that, sir?
7 A. She told me.
8 Q. Did the damage that you observed and witnessed, could you tell
9 what was the cause of that damage?
10 A. What -- no reasonable cause for damage inventory in a church. I
11 can't imagine how people can do such a thing. It's an obvious violation
12 of human rights.
13 Q. Did the destruction appear to you to be intentional or was it
14 somehow related to any type of combat?
15 A. I don't think there had been some combat in that church, at
16 least, because there were no damages from fightings.
17 Q. Sir, let me ask you about any houses or homes that you observed
18 in Travnik. Do you recall anything unusual that you saw with respect to
19 houses in Travnik?
20 A. Yeah. Travnik was in my opinion a very difficult area because
21 Travnik was appointed as a capital of the province number ten in the
22 Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and both sides tried to get majority in this
23 province number ten. And that is probably the reason for the heavy
24 fighting there in the first half of June. And one member of the Croat --
25 Croat member of the municipality board, he had been, as he told me,
1 expelled by Muslim soldiers, and he lived at this time in Bila area, Han
2 Bila, I think it was. And we tried, of course, to reunify Travnik but
3 with no success. And a large part of the Croat people in Travnik
4 disappeared. And I have not got any reasonable explanation why they
5 left. But most reasonable explanation must be that they felt a strong
6 threat from the Muslim side. And on several emptied houses, so to say
7 ex-Croat houses, there were posters or signs put up that said "This
8 property is protected by the Muslim or BiH." I think you have the text
9 of the signs in my testimony.
10 Q. Do you remember discussing this with anyone?
11 A. Of course, we noticed it and discussed within the colleagues,
12 what's the reason for that. They know -- those people who put up these
13 signs, they must have known that the Croats have left. And by some
14 reason, they wanted to keep the houses, perhaps for incoming refugees
15 from other areas or some other reason I don't know.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Junhov.
17 A. Thank you.
18 Mr. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions in direct
19 examination, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think it would be
21 best to have the break now. It's quarter to 5.00, and we will resume at
22 quarter past 5.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 4.45 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.17 p.m.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you may take the
1 floor for your cross-examination.
2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Junhov.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. We have had the pleasure and the opportunity to meet a little
7 earlier today. And before I begin, I wish to express my appreciation for
8 you taking the time to meet us. So on behalf of the Defence, thank you
9 very much.
10 I did on this occasion introduce myself but just for the sake of
11 the transcript, let me again introduce myself and the team I am with
12 today. I'm accompanied today by Mrs. Edina Residovic and by Mr. Alexis
13 Demirdjian. And my name is Stephane Bourgon. And together, we represent
14 General Hadzihasanovic.
15 I wish to begin, Mr. Junhov, by simply confirming that you did
16 give a statement to the Office of the Prosecution or to investigators in
17 1997. Is that correct? Which would be one year before you testified.
18 A. But I testified in 1998, if remember.
19 Q. Yes, you testified in 1998. Do you recall testifying in 1998?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Let's go step by step. Do you recall testifying and you answered
22 this question to the President, in 1998, and that was in the Aleksovski
23 case? Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, Kaonik prison.
25 Q. And you provided the Office of the Prosecution with a statement.
1 Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This is on the occasion where you spent lots of time with the
4 investigator to file the statement.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You gave a further statement in the month of February 2001, which
7 was just a little more than two years ago. Do you recall that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And of course, the events took place more than 11 years ago
10 today, so I fully understand that sometimes it is not possible to
11 remember everything. However, would you confirm for the benefit of the
12 Trial Chamber that even though these events took place more than 11 years
13 ago, today you still have nightmares about the moments and the experience
14 and about everything you saw in Central Bosnia.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that for you, you take no pleasure in being here today and
17 recalling these events.
18 A. On the contrary.
19 Q. Now, as an ECMM, can you confirm that you had no access to the
20 Army of the Republika Srpska or to what we call the VRS?
21 A. Yes. According to our basic documents, we should have unlimited
22 access to all territory. But we were not allowed into the Serb area.
23 Q. And for this reason, can you confirm that you focussed all of
24 your attention to the conflict between the HVO and the Army of Bosnia and
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that for this reason, you do not know exactly what was
3 happening on the front line between the Serb Army and the Army of Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina?
5 A. From inside Central Bosnia so to say, but not from the other
7 Q. You knew, however, that the army -- the Serb Army was regularly
8 shelling Central Bosnia and shelling the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
9 A. They were shelling the territory. I noticed that several times.
10 For instance, just some hours after we heard on the radio a news
11 broadcast about the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, there were shellings from the
12 Serb side just out the British Battalion in Vitez. One or two hours
13 later, there were shellings there.
14 Q. So you are able to confirm that there was indeed lots of shelling
15 from the Serb down in Central Bosnia.
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Now, I'd like to move to the issue that you discussed, and that
18 is of the Kaonik prison which you covered in your testimony in 1998. Is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you confirm that the information which led you to go to
22 Kaonik in the first place was received by the International Committee of
23 the Red Cross?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you also confirm that when you had initially, on the 2nd of
1 April, and that was at the Busovaca Joint Commission, that Mr. Nakic
2 denied having any knowledge of the people detained in Kaonik?
3 A. I don't remember that exactly. But I think you have it in my
4 written paper.
5 Q. If I take your statement that you provided in 2001, and if I just
6 quote to you a short line concerning the role, and it says here "I recall
7 Nakic making a comment that he had no knowledge about those foreigners."
8 Do you recall making this statement?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Now --
11 A. Mr. Nakic was.
12 Q. Mr. Nakic.
13 A. The Croat.
14 Q. Yes. And then you visited Kaonik with a colleague of yours,
15 namely, Mr. Schellschmidt?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can you also confirm that initially, when you found out about
18 Kaonik -- because you did not know, right, that Kaonik existed?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And when you did find out, you were initially refused access to
22 A. That's on the first attempt.
23 Q. And you had to go to the chief of police in Busovaca in order to
24 get permission to have access to Kaonik.
25 A. Because the guard there said he was not allowed to let anybody
2 Q. And then once you did have access, you were dealing with the
3 person you believed to be the commander of Kaonik prison.
4 A. Yeah, he introduced himself as the commander, or the man
5 responsible for the place.
6 Q. Now, on that occasion is when you met the five foreigners. Now,
7 earlier in response to a question from my colleague, you said there might
8 have been seven. But if I read from your statement, and it says five,
9 would that be five? Or do you recall if there was five or seven?
10 A. I have presented photos of these individuals, so -- they are
11 somewhere in the files there.
12 Q. As a matter of fact, I have a picture here which maybe I can show
13 you and you can confirm whether these are the individuals that you did
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is the
16 photograph that the Defence was provided with, and it was attached to the
17 witness's statement taken in 2001 by investigators from the OTP. It's a
18 black and white photograph, and we don't have the original.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's me myself who has made this photo.
20 MR. BOURGON:
21 Q. [In English] You took this picture yourself?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would ask, Mr. Junhov, that you simply initial this picture and
24 put a date on it. And I will ask that it be -- that it be introduced in
25 evidence to show the five people that you met.
1 A. Yeah. I think on the backside of the photo, there is a note of
2 the date and the place.
3 Q. Maybe on the original, but on this one, there is nothing. So I
4 would simply take this sheet of paper, and get you to put your initials
5 and a date, and we will enter it into evidence.
6 A. Okay.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as tendering
8 this photograph into evidence is concerned, this photograph which is a
9 copy of a black-and-white photograph, what is your position? The witness
10 says that he took this photograph himself.
11 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit
13 number, Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the exhibit
15 number will be DH189.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. [In English] The five individuals -- sorry.
19 A. Yeah, but I don't remember exactly the date. You have it in my
21 Q. Well, I don't think I have a date here. But if you just sign it
22 and put today's date that today you recognise this picture as having been
23 taken by yourself during the time you spent in Bosnia, and that day you
24 said you were accompanied by Mr. Schellschmidt. So simply sign and put
25 today's date, please.
1 A. Okay.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. [In English] Now, earlier on, you answered a question from my
5 colleague that these five foreigners were most likely from Libya, Saudi
6 Arabia and Afghanistan. Now, in your statement here, it says that these
7 people were from Pakistan, Egypt, Tunis, and Algeria.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Are you able to confirm or you just did not know where they were
11 A. What is written in my first statement must be most correct.
12 Q. And are these notes -- did you obtain this information on that
13 day from these people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And can you confirm once again that these people
16 informed you that they were missionaries.
17 A. Yes. On my question, what are you doing here, the answer was "We
18 are missionaries".
19 Q. And can you also confirm that the issue of money and that the
20 issue of weapons, both issues were raised during the
21 examination-in-chief, and in your view both of these issues were rumours.
22 A. Yeah. I couldn't confirm it because there were no evidence of
24 Q. Now, when you did ask them why they were arrested, do you recall
25 that they told you that they did not know why they had been arrested, but
1 that they had been arrested immediately upon entry in Bosnia and
3 A. I don't remember exactly the answer. But they were arrested and
4 they had no -- as they explained to me, no reason for -- they hadn't been
5 told any reason for their arresting.
6 Q. Can you say that once again, please.
7 A. I mentioned before there were a language problem because these
8 people didn't speak English, very bad English. Some of them knew some
9 words in German, French. But on my question, I got the impression that
10 they had not been explained by the Croats why they were arrested.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, if I move quickly to your testimony, and that is
12 your testimony that you gave in 1998 concerning the coordination
13 committee meeting. Now, in your testimony, you mention that this meeting
14 took place on the 7th of April. Can you confirm this.
15 A. There were a lot of meetings.
16 Q. But if you said so in your testimony, would that be --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- a proper --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Now, on that occasion, you also mentioned in your testimony that
21 at the meeting, there was a request for Kaonik prison to be inspected.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that on this occasion, the committee decided that ICRC, the
24 International Committee of the Red Cross, would do the inspection, and
25 they were actually present during that meeting. Do you recall that?
1 A. If I have written that, it's okay.
2 Q. If I can just refer you to the testimony itself so that I can be
3 sure that this is what you said and you can confirm. I have your
4 testimony here, and I will refer you to the exact area. It says here:
5 "Was there any discussion about the Kaonik prison at this
6 particular meeting?"
7 And your answer was: "Yes. Amongst all other items on the
8 agenda, there was a request or a demand to get this prison examined."
9 The next question is: "Examined by whom?"
10 And your answer is: "Or inspected."
11 And the question then is: "Examined or inspected by whom?"
12 And then your answer is: "According to a decision in the
13 committee, the task was given to the ICRC."
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Thank you. May I just confirm with you, Mr. Junhov, that --
16 A. I'm sorry, what was the question about that?
17 Q. Simply to confirm that the decision to have Kaonik prison
18 inspected, there was someone who put a request forward, and the committee
19 decided to give this task to the ICRC.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Now, my next question is: Do you recall that you mentioned that
22 there was a request for those persons to be transferred to the prison in
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, can you also confirm that, because I've looked at your
1 testimony and both of your statements, and nowhere does it say that there
2 was a request or any indication for these people to be released.
3 A. But there was a general understanding that people who were
4 detained without any juridical reasons, they should be released.
5 Q. So because there was no legal basis, then, it was discussed it
6 should -- if there was no legal basis, they should be released?
7 A. Yes, and that was not only the question in Kaonik; it was other
8 places, too, where people were detained.
9 Q. And of course, these persons, that's probably the reason why they
10 requested them to be transferred to the real prison in Zenica?
11 A. Might have been. I don't know.
12 Q. Let me move on to another area, and that is the 20th of April.
13 Now, I would like to refer you to a document. And before I go on, I will
14 give you a series of documents which we will use during the
16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a series of
17 eight documents here. These are documents, the ones that will be used by
18 the Judges and the witness, have been indexed. There are tabs, and we
19 have a sufficient number of copies for everyone present in the courtroom.
20 Q. [In English] Mr. Junhov, I would like to refer you to tab number
21 5, which is a special report dated 20 and 21 April. And I would like to
22 refer to the second page in this report where it is indicated that the
23 report was prepared by Mr. Torbjorn --
24 A. That's me.
25 Q. Lars, which would be Mr. Baggesen?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Remy, I guess this would be?
3 A. The Canadian monitor.
4 Q. Landry.
5 A. Yes. Remy Landry.
6 Q. I'd like to refer you to paragraph number 2 where it says "Croat
7 communities in Zenica." If you can read where it says: "The following
8 Zenica Croat suburbs were visited to clarify the housing situation..."
9 And where it says that "it was safe to have their inhabitants return."
10 And there's a series of towns which are mentioned. And where it says
11 that "the local commander, local BiH commander, Nuraga was met, and he
12 confirmed us that he had received strict orders regarding all the vacated
13 houses and villages. He had to patrol to assure their security with the
14 military BiH police, including patrol and creation of joint commissions
15 with the local inhabitants. We were told that every HVO soldier that
16 wanted to return to his village could do it if he surrendered by handing
17 back his personal weapon and assuming that he was not part of the
18 shelling on Zenica. In all of the villages visited, the Croats
19 interviewed mentioned that they had received aid and protection from
20 their Muslim neighbours during the fighting. During one of the visits,
21 we witnessed the capture of criminals who were robbing houses by the
22 special military BiH police."
23 Do you recall this visit and the contents of this document?
24 A. I recall the contents of the document, but I wasn't -- I didn't
25 take part in this visit in these villages. That was carried out by
1 Mr. Remi Landry. But we always made these kind of special reports. We
2 picked together from different monitors.
3 Q. All the information, and the information was summed up and
4 indicated into this kind of report.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But you acknowledge that these issues, these events were
7 discussed with you with your colleagues.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I'd like to move on to the 25th of April.
10 MR. BOURGON: And I would like the usher, please, to bring the
11 Prosecution Exhibit 148, which was referred to earlier on during the
13 Q. First, I would like you to confirm, Mr. Junhov, that you yourself
14 never did go to Miletici.
15 A. Yes, I was not present there. As I remember it, it was Erik
16 Friis-Pedersen, together with Mr. Merdan and Mr. Nakic.
17 Q. However, you are able to confirm based on this written document
18 that those people who did the killings in Miletici were the Mujahedin,
19 the Arabic-speaking people.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I would like to refer you to this specific document, but to the
22 paragraph just above -- or sorry, the paragraph just later where it talks
23 about the joint operations centre and where it says that there was -- "a
24 decision was made..." I refer you specifically to paragraph 4.
25 A. In which paper?
1 Q. The second page. This is the one -- the Prosecution exhibit you
2 have in paragraph 4 where it says "tripartite meetings" and where it says
3 that "the commission sat today and discussed the cease-fire violations."
4 Now, I refer you to the end of this paragraph where it says: "In the
5 afternoon, it was decided to send an investigation team of the joint
6 operations centre to Miletici." And then it says: "See above, paragraph
7 2 C."
8 Can you confirm that this paragraph, this decision by the joint
9 operations centre, the decision was to send Mr. Merdan and Mr. Nakic
10 together to go and take a look and confirm rumours they had heard
11 concerning the events in Miletici.
12 A. Yes. Since you have it in the report, it must be true.
13 Q. Now, can you confirm that this was the proper procedure whereby
14 parties would meet at the joint operations centre, they would discuss
15 issues, and if one or the other or both parties wanted to confirm and to
16 investigate, then there would be a decision made for both parties to
17 travel together and confirm whether any rumours were right or wrong.
18 A. That was the normal procedure.
19 Q. And that they would then be accompanied by a member from the
21 A. Yes, or from the UNPROFOR or both.
22 Q. And in this case, it's Mr. Friis-Pedersen.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- who accompanied Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan.
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. And together they went to Miletici and they confirmed the
2 information at paragraph 2.
3 A. Yes, it seems so. I don't remember exactly the discussions here,
4 but I take for obvious that the report is reflecting the correct
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Junhov.
7 MR. BOURGON: This document can be taken back from the witness.
8 Q. I would like to move to another issue, and that is on the 26th of
9 April. And I refer to you the series of documents you have before you,
10 and this is the document at tab number 6. Now, if we look at this
11 document, Mr. Junhov, it says that the main task for the team -- would
12 you agree that this would be the team Z1 which was composed of
13 Mr. Baggesen and Mr. Morsink?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that it was to move as much people from Grahovcici back to
16 their homes as soon as possible? And that there was a phase approach --
17 A. The reports says it was to remove as much people from -- as
18 possible, not as soon as possible.
19 Q. Sorry, yes. You're absolutely correct. The first sentence says
20 "as possible," to their homes as possible. So as many people as
21 possible, to move them back to their reports.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you confirm according to this report, the transport was
24 arranged by Father Stipan as long as the head of the civil protection of
25 Zenica. Can you confirm, Mr. Junhov, that the civil protection of Zenica
1 is a civil organisation?
2 A. I didn't take part in this special event. But generally, as you
3 can see here, obviously it has worked this way.
4 Q. Now, just my question to you was can you confirm the existence of
5 the civil protection service of Zenica.
6 A. Yes. There existed some kind of organisation.
7 Q. And this was not a military organisation, but a civilian
9 A. I don't really know. But in my opinion, they had some kind of --
10 should we call him Lord Mayor of Zenica.
11 Q. Mayor of Zenica. Do you recall the name of the mayor of Zenica?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If I suggest to you Mr. Spahic, does that ring a bell to you?
14 A. I have heard the name.
15 Q. If I suggest to you the name Fazlic as being the chief of police
16 of Zenica, is that something that you recall at all?
17 A. I remember I met with the chief of police a couple of times, but
18 there is no bell ringing of the name.
19 Q. If I show you a picture of the chief of police, would you be able
20 to recall?
21 A. Let us have a try.
22 Q. Can you look at the picture, Mr. Junhov, and tell me if you
23 remember or if you can see who the peoples in this picture are.
24 A. Yes. From the right in my view here, the civilian, his role I'm
25 not fully clear if it was a politician or some kind of civilian officer.
1 And then it's Mr. Merdan and Mr. Hadzihasanovic. Then I think it's some
3 Q. Can you say the last name again because I missed the --
4 A. Hadzihasanovic. The commander.
5 Q. Yes. Beside Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
6 A. Mr. Merdan.
7 Q. Sorry, going the other way, the lady.
8 A. The lady, I think she was an interpreter.
9 Q. And then moving down?
10 A. That is the Danish monitor. We had his name on a paper.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Junhov, again, the civilian that you are mentioning --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- do you recognise this gentleman as being Mr. Fazlic?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Chief of police.
16 A. I can't confirm that. I think this photo was taken -- it's me
17 who has taken the photo. And I think it was in a meeting in Kakanj.
18 Q. So I would ask you that we use the same procedure, Mr. Junhov,
19 and that you put your initials on this picture as well as today's date.
20 And I will ask that it be admitted, of course, under the caveat that you
21 could not recognise the man who is dressed in civilian clothes.
22 A. Yeah, I recognise him. I have seen him, of course. But I can't
23 verify the name of him. It might also have been a meeting in BritBat in
24 Vitez. But on the other side of the table, there was the opposite
25 members from the HVO.
1 Q. If I suggest to you that this is the picture that was -- that
2 accompanied your statement and that was, of course, taken by yourself and
3 it is indeed the meeting in Kaonik on the 7th of April. Kakanj, sorry.
4 A. Kakanj, yeah. Okay. Then we agree. Should I sign it?
5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I would like these photos to be
6 tendered into evidence.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, may we have a
10 number, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH190 will be the next number,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.
14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. [In English] If I can just refer you to this document that we
16 were looking at tab number 6, and to refer you to later down in the
17 paragraph where it says, and just at paragraph 2, the fifth line -- sorry
18 the fourth line where it begins by "there, we heard that HVO Travnik had
19 ordered to stop all refugees from going back to their houses, and it was
20 said that they were ordered to go to Nova Bila."
21 Do you recall discussing this event with your colleagues Baggesen
22 and Morsink, that the fact that Travnik were basically ordering their
23 people not to return to their villages and instead to go to Nova Bila?
24 A. There was a lot of discussion about the Croats in Travnik. And I
25 can't remember exactly this point here. But there were a lot of
1 discussions how to handle the Croats.
2 Q. And that these people from Travnik that you mention, Mr. Junhov,
3 were the HVO from Travnik ordering their people not to return to their
5 A. It stands so here. And the notes -- the report is written by the
6 two monitors who witnessed this.
7 Q. But do you recall these discussions about the HVO in Travnik
8 telling their people not to return to their houses?
9 A. No, I can't remember because I was -- obviously I was not present
10 at this time.
11 Q. If I bring you down to a little further down, six lines from the
12 bottom, where it says "the local press" -- just below this sentence,
13 where it says, "It appeared that rumours on massacres in and around
14 Zenica were told by the HVO, probably to scare people from going back to
15 their homes, and the team reported on their experiences of phase 1 and
16 was able to calm the situation. And Father Stipan and reps of the
17 refugees used some time to discuss the matter and explain the situation
18 to all refugees. And the refugees told to be forced back from the
19 checkpoint in Novi Selo to Grahovcici by HVO soldiers firing warning
20 shots in the air."
21 Do you recall the use of propaganda and rumours to scare the
22 people from going back to their houses?
23 A. Generally, there was a lot of rumours.
24 Q. And in this case, do you recall your colleagues discussing with
25 you that they actually had taken three buses which were kind of hijacked
1 by the HVO, and the three HVO, the police and the HVO took the buses away
2 from both of your colleagues and Father Stipan? Do you recall this event
3 being discussed at all?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to another issue, Mr. Junhov. And
6 that is the -- you mentioned that you had seen a church which had been
7 destroyed by - if I recall correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong in your
8 testimony - by a mortar round. Did you say something like that in your
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I would like to refer you to a document, and this document
12 is at tab number 1 in your report -- in your pile of documents. This is
13 a document which is already in evidence, and I would ask you that you
14 take a look at the document. The first part is a covering letter which
15 is signed by Ambassador Thebault. Now, you know who Ambassador Thebault
16 is. He was the head of the regional centre.
17 A. I know him very well.
18 Q. And he was the one you spent the first night with, discussing the
20 A. And then we worked together for three months.
21 Q. Can you read what Ambassador Thebault was saying on this first
22 page and confirm whether you agree or not with his assessment of the
23 situation. And I refer you specifically to the second paragraph where it
24 says "if the BiH Army attack is clear, it seems also to be now clear that
25 the allegations of atrocities or ethnic cleansing made by the Bosnian
1 Croats are intentionally exaggerated when not completely false." And
2 then where it says a little further down, that: "In fact, the huge
3 population movements reported are more probably the combined product of
4 the long-lasting HVO propaganda on Muslim-alleged atrocities and the
5 result of clear orders given in certain areas to leave the villages when
6 not to join the Serb lines."
7 Do you recall this assessment by Ambassador Thebault?
8 A. I don't remember exactly how the discussion was going on. But at
9 this time, I was head on the coordination centre in Travnik that we
10 established during this period. And of course, I had a lot of
11 discussions with Mr. Thebault about the situation in Travnik. And we
12 were, as I remember, very confused about what happened to all these
13 thousands of Croat people that disappeared from Travnik. And I still
14 have no clear picture of what happened to them.
15 Q. We will come, Mr. Junhov, to the issue of the Travnik. But for
16 now, do you recall that the use of propaganda as described by Ambassador
17 Thebault and the use of orders by the HVO authorities to both scare
18 people and get them to leave their villages?
19 A. What I can confirm generally is that there was a lot of rumours
20 and a lot of attempt to scare the people in some purpose. But I don't
21 remember exactly the discussion that led Mr. Thebault to make this
22 special report.
23 Q. Now, I'd like to refer you, Mr. Junhov, to the next document in
24 your binder, in your list of documents. This is a document dated 19th of
25 June. Now, this, of course, is just before you departed for -- at the
1 end of your tour. Is that correct?
2 A. Yeah, 19th of June.
3 Q. I refer you to the second page of this document where again this
4 is a report that was prepared, the first page, by Jean-Pierre Thebault.
5 And immediately following this report, if you follow me on page 2, is a
6 special report on Travnik dated the 8th of June 1993. Are you with me on
7 the same page?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. I now refer you to the end of this document on page 5 where it
10 says that the document had been prepared by Philip Watkins and yourself.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Do you recall preparing this document?
13 A. Date, 8th of June. Okay. What's the question?
14 Q. Do you recall preparing this document along with Mr. Watkins?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Watkins is the person who came after you as the head of
17 the coordination centre in Travnik. Is that correct?
18 A. Philip Watkins, if I remember it correctly he was to succeed me
19 when I left.
20 Q. If I refer you to in terms of the last -- on page -- sorry, on
21 page 4 at paragraph 8 -- yeah, paragraph 8, and it's the fifth line down
22 where it says "the Dolac church has been hit by a single mortar round,
23 and this is not assessed as a deliberate attack." Is that the church
24 that you saw in Dolac that you reported a little earlier?
25 A. Where it Dolac?
1 Q. The fifth line of paragraph --
2 A. On the map. I have to see a map.
3 Q. I refer you here to your statement, and where in your statement
4 it is mentioned, and that is on page -- to your statement here it, says
5 "Sometimes in late April, I visited Dolac area, which is located
6 northwest of Zenica. I took a photograph of a destroyed Catholic
7 church." And I just want to ask you whether this church in Dolac is the
8 church that is reported here as having been hit by a single mortar round.
9 If you don't remember, it's not -- it is perfectly okay,
10 Mr. Junhov.
11 A. Yeah, but I have to have some kind of support for my memory which
12 church is which. And then I would like to see a map.
13 Q. Unfortunately, I do not have a map with me.
14 A. I have a map in my...
15 Q. If you have a map, maybe you can take it out.
16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] With your permission,
17 Mr. President, and of course if the other side agrees.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Mundis, do you have
19 anything against this line of action?
20 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely not, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Witness, would you please
22 have a look at your map.
23 THE WITNESS: Let's see, Dolac.
24 MR. BOURGON:
25 Q. It is close to Travnik, northwest of Zenica.
1 A. Is it between Novi Travnik and Travnik?
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, perhaps you could
3 guide the witness. He hasn't got your GPS system.
4 THE WITNESS: Because I can't find the name on the map.
6 MR. BOURGON:
7 Q. But put the map that you have now in your hands just on the ELMO
8 so that we can all see basically where Dolac is compared to Travnik. Can
9 you use your pencil to point towards Dolac.
10 A. Here's Travnik. And Dolac is here.
11 Q. Is this where you took the picture of a church that was destroyed
12 and that you later reported as having been destroyed by a single
13 mortar-round hit?
14 A. Yeah, but the church had also been visited by people who had
15 abused the church. Or if it was like a monastery or like a religious
16 school or something like that. But the church was hit and the inventory
17 of the church was abused. The library was thrown out of the windows.
18 Q. You referred to earlier on, Mr. Junhov, to a Catholic church in
19 Travnik. Now, this is two different churches. Right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the first one you reported damage inside which you visited
22 with an interpreter?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this one you report as having been hit by a mortar round?
25 A. Yes, but this church had also been visited by people who
1 destroyed the inventory in the church.
2 Q. We'll move on to another topic, because it's -- this is -- later
3 on, we will talk about the church in Travnik just to ensure that we are
4 -- to know exactly which church we are talking about. Now, the church
5 you visited in Travnik, the one that had the damage inside --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- this church, you were taken there by a lady who told you that
8 the damage inside had been done by the Mujahedin.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, did the lady also tell you that even though the damage had
11 been done by the Mujahedin, a criminal complaint had been filed and an
12 investigation was underway? Did she tell you that?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Let's move on to another issue, and that is the exchange which
15 you referred to in your testimony concerning the foreigners that were
16 detained or at least that were exchanged. My only question I have for
17 you is that of course your information or your knowledge of this exchange
18 is limited to what you saw at the factory; you called it the blue
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on this occasion, you mentioned that there was an individual
22 whom you believed to be a Muslim commander.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in your statement, you actually say that you took a
25 picture --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- of this gentleman, and I would like to show you this picture.
3 Do you recall who the gentleman in white is who seems to be a bit taller
4 than the others?
5 A. Yeah, I think it's Henk Morsink.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that he is discussing with the member who
7 you believe to be the Muslim commander?
8 A. Yeah, and the man with the back is probably an interpreter.
9 Q. And that is you -- you described him in your statement as being a
10 Mujahedin with the beard, wearing a black beret and an Arafat scarf.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. He was speaking to Mr. Morsink.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. He was the typical Mujahedin you were referring to. Is that
16 A. Yeah, in my opinion.
17 Q. Thank you. I would like that you sign this picture, please, and
18 put today's date.
19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to tender
20 the photograph, too.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, the photograph
22 showing a typical Mujahedin, if I can put it that way. What is your
24 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Registrar, a
1 number, please.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH191 will be that number.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. [In English] Mr. Junhov, can you confirm that concerning this
6 exchange, what you recall is that the foreigners were taking into two
7 Warriors that belonged to BritBat and that they were taken to the coast,
8 somewhere in Split?
9 A. Yes, that's what I heard. I didn't take part in the transport.
10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to a different issue, and that is the
11 issue that you were appointed the head of the coordination centre in
12 Travnik on 1 June. Is that correct?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And that is you were just returning from 15 days of rest and
15 recreation, known of course as R and R.
16 A. One week.
17 Q. Sorry, because in your statement it says that you departed on the
18 19th and that you came back on the 1st, which made it 15 days. But I
19 agree. To me, if it's one or two weeks, it says 19 May to 2nd of June.
20 Were those dates -- correspond?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. When you returned, can you confirm with me that the situation you
23 found in Travnik was, to use your own word, chaotic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that during the first week of June, it was a total war in
2 A. And the area around Travnik.
3 Q. And that there was also shelling from the Serbian Army?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that there were great problems; there were lack of food, the
6 roads were blocked, and there was no way to get supplies into the town.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also agree that the town was full of refugees, mostly
9 Muslims, but also Croats?
10 A. Yes. And people who came into Travnik from the west, from the
11 Turbe area and beyond that.
12 Q. Now, do you recall that when you arrived being informed that on
13 the 1st of June, the commander of the Operational Group Bosanska Krajina,
14 Mehmet Alagic had been arrested and had been robbed of all of his
15 materiel. Do you recall this event?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you agree with me that this event where the commander of the
18 operational group is arrested is a significant event that can really
19 contribute to raise tensions to the maximum?
20 A. Of course it may contributed to that. But it was one event among
21 a number.
22 Q. Maybe I will make my questions more precise. If you arrest one
23 soldier or if you arrest the commander of the operational group, does
24 that make a difference in terms of the impact on the overall situation?
25 A. Of course it does.
1 Q. Now, are you aware that at the same time, the HVO were preventing
2 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to travel to the front line with the Serbs
3 by establishing some checkpoints? Are you aware of this situation?
4 A. That the Croats -- what's the --
5 Q. That the HVO were setting up checkpoints, and that they actually
6 stopped or prevented buses with soldiers from the Army of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina to travel to the Serb front line. Are you aware of
8 this situation?
9 A. Yeah, I remember the discussions about that. And of course, from
10 the Croat side then the explanation was that they would like to prevent
11 the BiH forces to cooperate with the Serbs.
12 Q. Now, do you also agree, Mr. Junhov, because -- I mean, I take
13 your assessment of the situation. Do you recall that at that time, the
14 HVO, who up until that time in early June had been keeping the line with
15 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were pulling away from the line, and that
16 created big problems for the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
17 A. I don't understand that question.
18 Q. Let me say that once more. Up until early June --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- the front line in Central Bosnia facing the Serbs --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- was being held by two armies working together, the HVO on one
23 hand and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Are you aware of that fact?
24 A. Yes, but that was earlier, I think.
25 Q. Yes, earlier, absolutely.
1 A. Okay. Then I agree.
2 Q. Do you agree by that time, the HVO had pulled out from the line,
3 thus increasing the burden on the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
4 A. From the Croatian side, they might have got that impression. But
5 I don't --
6 Q. Yourself, as an observer.
7 A. I can't confirm that because we were not allowed to go into the
8 area where the Serb Army could have some kind of impact on us.
9 Q. Now, were you aware at that time, Mr. Junhov, that the HVO was
10 actually leaguing up with the Serbs in terms of teaming up together and
11 fighting the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Were you aware of this?
12 A. [No audible response]
13 Q. Were you aware of the attack conducted by the HVO on the village
14 of Bandol, which is very close to Travnik?
15 A. Is it east of Travnik or... ?
16 Q. This is going from Travnik. If you look up to the monastery at
17 Guca Gora, then you see the village of -- the village of Bandol is in a
18 line, in a straight line between --
19 A. Okay, to the left.
20 Q. -- Travnik and Guca Gora.
21 A. And what was the question there?
22 Q. If you remember there was an attack conducted by the HVO on the
23 village of Bandol.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I just draw to my learned colleague's
1 attention the fact that at line 23 there was no audible response recorded
2 in the transcript.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you.
5 Q. I will say this question once again, Mr. Junhov. But if you
6 don't remember, just say that you don't remember. I was just referring
7 to because you said that there was total war in Travnik and in the
8 surrounding villages, whether you were aware that the HVO had attacked
9 the village of Bandol. And that actually, every single Muslim house in
10 that village was burnt down. Do you recall this event?
11 A. The special village of Bandol, I don't remember that exactly.
12 But you see, this was day after day after day with heavy fighting, and I
13 was just in the middle of it sitting in an awful hotel. And what I could
14 see through the windows from the hotel, of course, it limited me. And
15 the few -- it was very hard to get out in the field.
16 Q. As a matter of fact, maybe you can confirm that on the 4th of
17 June you requested to be evacuated from Travnik and taken back to Zenica.
18 Do you recall this event?
19 A. Yes, in the evening.
20 Q. Because of the fighting.
21 A. Yes, because I had a number of persons with me, and I was
22 responsible for the security for the people. So I called up the BritBat
23 to come in and evacuate us, which they did.
24 Q. Let me move on to a different issue, Mr. Junhov, and that is what
25 you referred to as the joint command post or the joint operations centre
1 which was located in the PTT building. Do you recall this?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were appointed the senior advisor to this operations centre.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you confirm that this centre never actually worked out?
6 A. Yes, I confirm that.
7 Q. And one of the main reasons amongst others was the lack of
8 communications equipment.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And can you also confirm that Mr. Merdan himself, during that
11 period, was difficult to contact because he was no longer being
12 transported by BritBat and that he had no communications equipment of his
14 A. I never saw him with any kind of communication equipment.
15 Q. Now, let me move on to a different issue, and that is on the 10th
16 of June, there was a fact-finding mission. And I'd like to refer you to
17 a document in the series of documents that has been given to you, which
18 is at tab 7. And I'd like to refer you to page number 2 where it says
19 that this report has been prepared by yourself and Mr. Watkins.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognise this report?
22 A. If I would have the time to read it.
23 Q. Take the time to read it, Mr. Junhov, by all means.
24 Do you recognise this report?
25 A. Yeah, I remember it. Yeah, yeah, okay.
1 Q. Do you recognise that in terms of the route -- I refer you to the
2 middle of the paragraph where we talk about Nova Selo. It says,
3 "The route to the village took us through the Croat village of
4 Nova Selo where there was evidence of fighting but no burnt houses," and
5 that en route to Brajkovici, "Two houses were said to have been
6 destroyed, and one fresh grave was observed. But the houses in the
7 village were intact, without any sign of damage."
8 Do you recall these observations made with Mr. Watkins?
9 A. Yeah, yeah.
10 Q. I now refer you to another -- moving on to another topic, and
11 that is the Tuzla convoy. Do you remember this convoy?
12 A. Very well.
13 Q. And do you recall that this convoy was, to use your own words, "a
14 total mess," whereas there was actually a military engagement between the
15 UNPROFOR and the HVO?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And that drivers were taken out of their vehicles and killed by
18 the HVO?
19 A. If it was HVO units or police forces from Vitez, I don't know.
20 But I have photos from many of the trucks with the contents of the brain
21 in the roof of the lorries. They were shot where they sat in the trucks.
22 Q. And you know that this fighting was done by the HVO or the HVO
24 A. Or at least with the knowledge of them.
25 Q. And that even UNPROFOR for the first time killed two persons in
1 self-defence. Do you recall this event?
2 A. Yeah, I recall the shooting. But if it was the first time, I
3 don't know.
4 Q. And that some trucks were actually taken away and stolen all
5 together, and the convoy was badly looted. Do you remember this?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, I refer you now to the 14th of June where you actually said
8 something about a house near the centre of Travnik. Now, you said that
9 many houses in Travnik had this sign. I would simply like to confirm
10 that this sign, the reading on this sign, said that "Property under the
11 protection of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Military Police." Can
12 you confirm that this is what the sign which was on those many houses in
13 Travnik read?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to a different issue. And that was
16 basically your assessment of the Vance-Owens plan. This is an issue you
17 touched upon with the investigator whom you met. I'd like to refer you
18 to this end to another document which is in your binder, and that is the
19 document at tab number 8. And I would like you to look at paragraph
20 number 3, where it says:
21 "The international community has deployed an increasingly
22 professional humanitarian effort to keep alive the communities isolated
23 by the conflict over the winter of 1992/1993. But their position is now
24 untenable because of the total intransigence of Bosnian Serbs and the
25 Croats in Herzegovina"; and where it says "The final collapse of the
1 infrastructure of Central Bosnia is imminent. However, as the situation
2 within Bosnia-Herzegovina has deteriorated, so the international effort
3 to resolve the conflict has also become disjointed and the way ahead
4 increasingly unclear."
5 Now, do you recall that this is a document that you gave yourself
6 to the investigators of the Tribunal when you met them in 1997?
7 A. I don't remember that. Who is this -- the author?
8 Q. The author of this document is the --
9 A. Ole Brix-Andersen.
10 Q. He is the deputy head of mission, that is, the ECMM in Zagreb.
11 Now, at the end of your statement in 1997, you gave a series of documents
12 to the investigators. This is one of the documents that is on this list.
13 And your comment is "I am providing the Tribunal with several documents
14 which I authenticate. They are true to the best, and I want to attach
15 them to this statement, and I'd like you to consider them to be part of
16 my statement." Do you recall saying this to the investigators of the
18 A. I can't remember exactly that, but...
19 Q. And this document was in the list, and this is a document dated
20 16th of June.
21 A. Which year? 1993, okay. So what's the point?
22 Q. I simply say whether you recognise this as being one of the
23 documents which you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal.
24 A. Yeah, I can't deny that.
25 Q. Now, if I go with you to the second page of this document, where
1 it says, talking about the Serbs, that -- at paragraph 6: "The Serbs are
2 contemptuous of the Security Council resolutions and declarations on safe
3 areas and continue to pursue their policy of reducing and removing the
4 Muslim presence in the area as fast as possible."
5 Do you remember reading this document and discussing this
6 document at any point during your stay in Bosnia?
7 A. This is dated the 16th of June. That is the same week that I
9 Q. Now, you obtained this document while you were in Bosnia. Is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. I refer you to this number 10, paragraph number 10 on this page,
13 where it says "the eruption of interethnic violence between Croats and
14 Muslims in Central Bosnia on 16th of April, capped by the atrocity
15 committed in Ahmici, was staged by the Bosnian Croats. They want to
16 start by establishing a secure border between Croat provinces 8 and 10,
17 and the Muslim province number 9."
18 If we go to the next page, "At the same time, they will eliminate
19 all Muslim resistance to their plans within provinces 8 and 10. Once
20 this is achieved, one can expect ethnic cleansing within Croat-controlled
21 areas will be pursued on a far larger scale than is currently possible.
22 This process will probably lead to the securing of independence for the
23 Croatian community within Bosnia and Herzegovina and eventually some sort
24 of formalised relationship with Croatia."
25 And I'd like to refer you just to paragraph 14, because this is
1 where you were in terms of the head of the coordination centre. Are you
2 with me at paragraph 14, sir?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Where it says: "Travnik was the only area where the Croat and
5 Muslims appeared to be working well together, despite a number of fights.
6 But on the 4th of June, the Croats evacuated Travnik to Novi Travnik,
7 Vitez, and Turbe held by the Serbs amid allegations of Muslim atrocities.
8 And then it says the Muslims took control first of Travnik and then of
9 the mountain route from Travnik to Zenica."
10 And where it says that "There is evidence that the HVO
11 deliberately withdrew the civilian Croat population from the Travnik area
12 in an attempt to balance their eviction against events in Mostar."
13 Would that be consistent with what you saw as the head of the
14 coordination centre in Travnik?
15 A. Yeah, as I mentioned before, we had a lot of discussions about
16 what happens to the Croats in Travnik and who made what. And as I also
17 mentioned before, I didn't get a clear picture of that when I was there.
18 Q. Let me move on to a different issue, which is my last issue I
19 would like to cover with you. And that is basically: You mentioned that
20 you met with General Hadzihasanovic. And can you confirm that your
21 assessment of General Hadzihasanovic was that he was professional,
22 educated; that he never raised his voice, that he was polite, and that he
23 behaved correctly at all times?
24 A. Yeah, I never saw any other behaviour.
25 Q. Now, if I tell you information which you might not be aware of,
1 that actually General Hadzihasanovic during his time as commander of the
2 3rd Corps in Central Bosnia issued a number of directives and orders to
3 his subordinate commanders, to both respect the law, investigate
4 violations, and actually ensure that violations are followed up with
5 disciplinary punishment or even criminal actions, would that be
6 consistent with what you saw of the man in Bosnia in 1993?
7 A. Yeah, but I am a very realistic person. I see to the result, and
8 not to the speeches and so on. And in my opinion, I think that the
9 commander of Central Bosnia, he was responsible for the area and for what
10 happens there.
11 Q. So the commander of the Central Bosnia operative zone, the HVO
12 commander, is responsible for everyone that happened in Central Bosnia.
13 A. In the area that he controls.
14 Q. They control the same area. So who's responsible?
15 A. They don't.
16 Q. They're both responsible for the same area. Central Bosnia
17 operative zone and Central Bosnia; do you agree that this is the same
19 A. Of course, Central Bosnia as a geographic object is the same.
20 But the military control was not overlapping.
21 Q. Now, we agree -- you are a former military officer, and we agree,
22 of course, that in military speaking, we always say that a commander is
23 responsible for everything. Do you agree with that?
24 A. Yeah, that's basic.
25 Q. My question to you is: If the commander that you met in 1993
1 issued a number of orders and that these orders led to prosecutions and
2 to a number of people being investigated, being prosecuted, being found
3 guilty, and being sentenced and being put in jail -- now you don't know
4 this information, but if this information was true, I'm just asking you
5 whether this fits in the character of the man that you met called
6 General Hadzihasanovic?
7 A. I think it's a strange question.
8 Q. If you can't answer, it's perfectly fine with me. I'm just
9 asking because you met him on a number of occasions.
10 A. Yes, but I never saw such an order as you mentioned. I never saw
11 any actions of courts or sentences and penalties.
12 Q. But would you agree with me that you never saw any orders from
13 the 3rd Corps, whether it was to lead an attack, to prepare an attack, --
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. -- to prepare troops, to do any movements. You saw no orders
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. So then it is normal that you did not see orders for discipline.
19 Would you agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'm just telling you, if it took place, is that consistent with
22 the character of the man that you saw in 1993? And if you cannot answer,
23 it's perfectly fine.
24 A. It's a hypothetical question.
25 Q. Let me simply move on to the fact that General Hadzihasanovic did
1 mention to you or complain to you that he had no communication
2 equipment --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, how much time do
4 you need?
5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I have no another two questions,
6 Mr. President. I'm almost finished.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And how much time
8 will Mr. Kubura's Defence require?
9 MR. DIXON: We will need 10 minutes to ask a few questions.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, we will try
12 to conclude.
13 MR. BOURGON:
14 Q. Mr. Junhov, can you confirm that General Hadzihasanovic did
15 complain to you that he had problems in communication and that he did not
16 have sufficient equipment and that he did not have any satellite phones?
17 Do you recall this conversation with General Hadzihasanovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Junhov. I have no further questions.
20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would only like to
21 tender some documents from the bundle into evidence. Perhaps we could do
22 that after my colleague asks his questions. Thank you, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Dixon:
25 Q. I wanted to return to the topic of damage and destruction. You
1 were shown a report that was prepared by yourself and Mr. Watkins dated
2 10 June 1993. There's no need to look at it again. Simply, if you could
3 confirm that in that report, following the fact-finding mission, it was
4 found that there was no damage to the village of Brajkovici. Is that
6 A. I don't remember it. But if it's in the report, it's -- of
7 course it's correct.
8 Q. In the report - and you can refer to it if you need to - but it's
9 also stated there that there was no damage to the church in Brajkovici,
10 that it was visited and it was completely intact with candles, pictures,
11 et cetera, remaining. Is that something you recall being in the report?
12 A. No, I can't remember it. But you have the report.
13 Q. Yes, it's at tab number 7 of my learned friend's record, if you
14 do wish to refer to it.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. It's on the first page of that report.
17 A. And what was the question?
18 Q. That the church was visited in Brajkovici and there was no damage
19 to the church.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And also, that it says in the report - that's near the bottom of
22 the first page - that the damage to Brajkovici was very limited. Do you
23 agree with me on that point?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In addition in the report, although Grahovcici was not visited
1 itself, would you confirm that the report notes that this village
2 [Realtime transcript read in error: "church"] was closely observed and
3 also appeared completely intact?
4 A. Of course. What is written in the report is what we saw.
5 Q. Yes, thank you.
6 There was also a TV crew with you on this visit. Do you remember
7 that? A video was made of your mission and what was seen. Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. On this special --
10 Q. That there was a video of your trip and what was observed in
11 Brajkovici and Grahovcici?
12 A. I don't remember that on this special day that there was a
13 television team with us. But we had now and then television teams and
14 also writing journalists.
15 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I could correct one matter for the
16 record. At 88.4, it says here "the church was closely observed." But
17 what I in fact said in my question was that the village of Grahovcici was
18 observed and the church was intact. The witness has confirmed that in
19 the report. Thank you.
20 Q. I'm not going to refer any longer to the report. I'm moving on
21 now to when you first arrived in April 1993. You mentioned that you were
22 shown an organisational chart of the 3rd Corps in which the 7th Brigade
23 was listed. Would you agree with me that that chart was one prepared by
24 the United Nations based on the information that they knew at the time?
25 It wasn't a chart of the Bosnian Army or any of the other warring armies.
1 A. No, it was provided by the UNPROFOR.
2 Q. Yes. You did not have a chart, did you, Mr. Junhov, that was
3 provided by the Army of Bosnia itself setting out which were the units
4 and what the composition of those units were?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know -- even though you didn't have such a chart, did you
7 know at the time that besides the 7th Brigade, there were other manoeuvre
8 units within the 3rd Corps area of responsibility?
9 A. Muslim units or?
10 Q. Units belonging to the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian Army. Did you
11 know besides the 7th Brigade, that there were other manoeuvre units not
12 attached to a particular territory or area, but moving within the area of
13 Central Bosnia?
14 A. That is hard to say. Which unit people belonged to.
15 Q. Perhaps if I mention a few brigades, it might ring a bell. Did
16 you know that the 301 Brigade or 303 Brigade or 314 Brigade or the
17 17th Krajina Brigade, they were all manoeuvre units able to move with a
18 degree of freedom within the area of 3rd Corps?
19 A. It's very hard to identify units. But I have a general
20 impression that they had a constant lack of means and transportation.
21 Q. Which units had a constant lack of meanings of transportation?
22 A. All units in...
23 Q. It wouldn't surprise you that there were a number of manoeuvre
24 units operating within the area of the 3rd Corps, would it?
25 A. It's possible.
1 Q. Yes.
2 In your testimony in chief, you mentioned that there were certain
3 opinions about which you had no proof. If I could refer to one in
4 particular and ask you whether it is correct that you, in fact, had no
5 juridical proof [Realtime transcript read in error: "group"] that there
6 were groups, as you put it, of foreign fighters which may or may not have
7 been with the 7th Brigade?
8 A. Yes, the answer is I had no juridical proof of it.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. But the opinion among the monitors, among the UN personnel,
11 was -- that was this opinion.
12 Q. But as you said in your examination-in-chief, you simply did not
13 have information, did you, about particular individual soldiers and
14 foreigners and which units they may have been with, if within a unit at
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, before we move on, I have been alerted
20 to the fact that there's another error on the transcript, and that's at
21 90, line 8. It's in fact you had no juridical proof, not group. So
22 there was no proof that there were groups in the 7th Brigade. And the
23 answer to that was yes, I had no juridical proof of it. Thank you.
24 Q. One final question, Mr. Junhov: You never met Mr. Amir Kubura,
25 did you?
1 A. No.
2 MR. DIXON: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, is
4 there any re-examination?
5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no questions for re-examination
6 for the witness. Thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, as far as your
8 request to tender documents is concerned.
9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm referring to a
10 series of documents that were shown to the witness. Could documents, 3,
11 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 be tendered into evidence on an individual basis.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as these
13 documents are concerned, they all appear to be official. What would your
14 position be?
15 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we have a number
17 of documents referred to in the list. We have one dated the 15th of
18 April, number 3; the 19th of April, number 4; 21st of April, number 5;
19 the 26th of April, number 6; the 8th of June, number 7; and the 16th of
20 June, that is number 8. Could we have an exhibit number for each of
21 these documents.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document will
23 be 192. The document RC Zenica will be 193. The document referred to as
24 "the Special Report on Croats in Zenica" will have the number DH198 [as
25 interpreted]. The daily report team document will have the number 195.
1 The daily summary in Travnik will have the number 196. Document Number
2 8 -- we have a B/C/S version -- a version English, will have the number
3 DH197; and the B/C/S version will have the number 197/B/C/S.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As the Judges have
5 no questions, Witness, you have answered the questions put to you by the
6 Prosecution and by the Defence. The Trial Chamber would like to thank
7 you for having come to testify in The Hague. We wish you all the best.
8 As you are now retired, we wish you all the best in your retirement. We
9 wish you a good trip home. And I will now ask the usher to escort you
10 out of the courtroom, and you shouldn't forget to take the bag containing
11 your documents with you. You were very kind and provided these documents
12 to the Defence. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll give
16 Mr. Bourgon the floor now who has presented us with four documents. You
17 may proceed.
18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. These
19 are the four documents that were used with the witness Sir Martin Garrod
20 last Friday. In the list of the documents provided, we first of all have
21 a document. It's a chart prepared by the Defence. There is no date.
22 The second document is a report dated the 2nd of June 1993. Its
23 title is "Special Report, BSA Offensive Action in Central Bosnia."
24 And the third document is dated the 7th of October, and its title
25 is "RC Zenica, Subject: Meeting between DHOM Ops and Mr. Enver
1 Hadzihasanovic, Commander of 3 BiH Corps, on 4 October 1993."
2 The fourth document, Mr. President, is the first one I used. It
3 has been highlighted -- parts have been highlighted, and I now have a
4 clean copy which I can tender into evidence. And this can replace the
5 one that the Registrar has kept. The date is the 4th of August 1993 and
6 the title is "Human Rights Situation in BiH and Emergency Situation."
7 Could we have four different numbers for these documents, please,
8 Mr. Registrar.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, as far
10 as these documents are concerned, the ones that were presented at the
11 hearing on Friday and that the Defence couldn't provide in totality, it
12 was necessary to replace one that was highlighted in yellow, that
13 document was dated the 4th of August 1993, and that was the document that
14 had to be replaced, does the Prosecution have any objections to raise to
15 these documents that have been identified and recognised by the witness?
16 Perhaps there's a bundle of documents that the Prosecution could be
17 presented with.
18 Madam Usher, could you please collect the documents in order to
19 refresh the Prosecution's memory.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I have the first three
21 documents. It's the fourth one that I'm a bit -- if I could just be
22 shown the fourth document.
23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The fourth document is the one that
24 was placed on the ELMO and parts of it had been highlighted. It was the
25 first document used in the course of the cross-examination. Thank you.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no objection to these four documents
2 being admitted into evidence.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, we
4 need another four numbers now.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first
6 document, "ECM chart as prepared by Defence team" is DH198.
7 The second one called "special report" will have the number 199,
9 The other one, the meeting between HOM, will have the number
11 As far as the last document is concerned, the exhibit will be
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 It's almost time to adjourn. As I said at the beginning of the
15 afternoon, tomorrow we will broadcast the videotapes, the ones referred
16 to in the document provided to the Judges and the Defence. The
17 Prosecution will state its position before the first video is shown and
18 will respond to the points raised by the Defence, namely the issue of who
19 made the document, when, when it was provided to the Prosecution,
20 et cetera. If the Prosecution isn't in a position to respond to the
21 questions raised, they will inform us of the fact. We need as much
22 information as possible in order to evaluate the reliability of the
23 document. I said the reliability, not it's probative value. So that's
24 how we will proceed.
25 Thank you. And I will see everyone at the hearing tomorrow at
1 9.00, unless there is something that Mr. Dixon would like to add.
2 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, just one additional report, and that is
3 to confirm that the Defence did today file the application with the
4 Blaskic Appeals Chamber in respect of the witness that we discussed at
5 the end of last week. I won't, of course, mention his name. But as we
6 said we would do, that application was filed today, and we will now wait
7 for the ruling from the Appeals Chamber. Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information,
9 which is useful. As I said, I will see you tomorrow at 9.00.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of June,
12 2004, at 9.00 a.m.