Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9338

1 Wednesday, 23 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court].

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Can we have the appearances, please, for the Prosecution first.

11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning,

12 Your Honours, good morning to everybody. For the Prosecution, Sureta

13 Chana, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, and case manager Andres Vatter. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Benjamin.

15 Can we have the appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good

17 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, lead counsel; Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis

19 Demirdjian, legal assistant.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, please.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

23 Mulalic, legal assistant.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. For today,

25 Wednesday, we will continue with our proceedings. The Chamber bids good

Page 9339

1 morning to all those present, the representatives of the Prosecution, the

2 Defence counsel, the accused, as well as all the staff of this courtroom.

3 Today we have an investigator as a witness. But before that, the

4 Chamber would like to convey to the parties, and especially to the

5 Prosecution, the following: It has to do with the contested documents. In

6 order to ensure effective and as speedy as possible examination of the

7 contested documents, because the Chamber needs to render a written

8 decision in this connection, the Chamber would like to obtain from the

9 Prosecution some clarifications concerning the problem of missing

10 translations and missing documents. The Chamber, in its oral decision of

11 the 17th of May, 2004, requested that the Prosecution provide the

12 contested documents that are still missing from the binder, as well as the

13 accompanying translations.

14 For this purpose, the legal officer provided to the Prosecution a

15 list, which is not exhaustive, an incomplete list of the documents

16 lacking, so as to assist the Prosecutor in its task. In its filing of the

17 8th of June, a memo of the Prosecution following the oral decision of the

18 17th of May, the Prosecution indicated that the translations that were

19 lacking had been provided to the Chamber, as they were received from the

20 translation services. Regarding the war diaries and logbooks, the

21 Prosecutor specified that their translation will probably not be available

22 before the 30th of June, 2004.

23 The Prosecutor also added, and I quote, that: "They will continue

24 to monitor the development of the situation and will keep the Trial

25 Chamber and the Defence informed on a regular basis." Since then, the

Page 9340

1 Chamber has indeed received a certain number of the documents lacking, as

2 well as translations, on the 4th and the 10th of June, 2004. Those

3 documents complemented the package of contested documents, and the Chamber

4 thanks the Prosecutor for providing them with these documents.

5 However, it would appear that the binders are still not complete.

6 It would therefore be desirable at this stage of the proceedings that the

7 Prosecution inform, as soon as possible, the Chamber of the progress

8 achieved since the last provision of documents, and in particular, with

9 respect to the most voluminous documents, and in this connection, the

10 contested documents 585 and 586, which are the files of military

11 investigations of the court in Zenica.

12 The Chamber would also like the Prosecution to inform the Chamber

13 of the required time that will be required for the completion of the

14 translations.

15 As the Prosecution is aware, the closing of its case cannot

16 legally take place before all the documents have been tendered and all the

17 exhibits have been translated. We cannot have a closing of the case

18 legally before the totality of the documents and exhibits have been filed

19 and given an exhibit number.

20 As the Prosecution is aware, we still have a few witnesses left,

21 but theoretically, we should complete the hearing of witnesses not later

22 than the beginning of July. It would be paradoxical to have to wait for

23 several weeks, even several months, for the translations to reach us.

24 Perhaps it would be desirable for the Prosecution to provide us a complete

25 overview, which could be compiled as follows: A list of the documents

Page 9341

1 that are still lacking, which were identified from the beginning; the list

2 of the translations that are lacking, of all the documents. Another

3 column in which, document by document, the date would be indicated when

4 those documents or translations were sent to us. And then a final column

5 in which you would indicate when the lacking documents or translations

6 would be provided, indicating a date, if possible, when we would have

7 those documents.

8 Ms. Benjamin, I don't know whether you are in a position to

9 respond now. Perhaps as the totality of these problems have been managed

10 by Mr. Mundis, we are somewhat nervous, because we see that we still have

11 either documents or translations lacking. Perhaps you need to consult

12 with him. Do you wish to intervene or would you prefer Mr. Mundis to

13 respond on the basis of the transcript of my words?

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I can assist you with what's

15 before me now, but certainly, as you quite rightly said, Mr. Mundis has

16 been the person who has been tasked with this assignment, and I prefer him

17 to go into the complete details with respect to the list and what times

18 you're going to get the balance. But as we speak, there's a bundle ready

19 for the Court this morning. Yes, a bundle of translations that is ready

20 to be delivered this very morning.

21 With respect to Exhibits 585 and 586, they have been put on

22 CD-ROMs and the Defence has theirs, and I think at the end of the first

23 break we would be able to give hard copies to the Judges, with respect to

24 585 and 586. That's basically what I have now.

25 Sorry, Mr. President. I'm told by the case manager that the logs

Page 9342

1 and the war diaries, we have been given the date 30th of June when they

2 should be ready and a few at the beginning of July. So I would deliver

3 the ones we have now, the hard copy later, and I'll certainly get messages

4 out to the people that are in charge with respect to the exhibits. I

5 apologise on behalf of the Prosecution.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Regarding the

7 lacking documents and translations, does the Defence wish to comment on

8 this subject at all? No comments. No observations.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

11 MR. DIXON: [Previous translation continues]... Thank you, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we shall wait for

14 Mr. Mundis to bring us up to date, and also you're telling us that some

15 documents will be provided to us by the 30th of June, when we will have

16 documents 585 and 586. Is that right?

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: That's my understanding, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us bring in the

19 witness who is on the schedule for today. Madam Usher, will you go and

20 fetch the witness.

21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, before we bring in the

22 witness --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please. I'm listening.

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: The witness who gave evidence before with

25 respect to the sketches and the photographs was a protected witness, so it

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Page 9344

1 means that these documents are under seal. And I propose something to the

2 Registry, and I think they were in agreement with it, that we would have

3 to cover the initial of the witness who gave testimony under protective

4 measures with respect to the things. So if it pleases the Court, maybe

5 that's the procedure we should adopt. Thanks.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence obviously can only

7 support such a suggestion.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But this is

9 also an occasion for us to say, before the witness comes in, that the

10 documents that we attached and which the Trial Chamber has admitted in

11 connection with the witness who testified last week as a protected

12 witness, that those documents with his signature be placed under seal.

13 When a decision was made on their admission, we didn't make this point,

14 that is, that all documents signed by that witness should also be placed

15 under seal.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Those are the

17 documents that you filed yesterday; is that right? Very well. So,

18 Mr. Registrar, the documents that may relate to that witness, which he

19 marked, should be placed under seal if the name of the witness appears on

20 the document. And to avoid any contamination, they must be placed under

21 seal. But we'll deal with that problem later on. The Chamber takes note

22 of the point made.

23 So let us bring in the witness.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Let me check

Page 9345

1 that you are hearing my words, translated into your language, at least

2 into English that you can understand.

3 THE WITNESS: Yes.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have been called

5 by the Prosecution to testify before this Tribunal. Before asking you to

6 read the solemn declaration, could you please give me your name, date and

7 place of birth, and nationality.

8 THE WITNESS: My name is Mika Tauru. I was born on 17 of March,

9 1963, and I'm a Finnish citizen.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation.

11 THE WITNESS: Currently I'm detective sergeant working in the

12 homicide unit of Helsinki criminal police in Helsinki, Finland.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're a Finnish police

14 officer.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before taking up this position

17 in the Finnish police force, what were you doing?

18 THE WITNESS: Well, I worked here as an investigator for three

19 years since 1999 until 2002, and I've been working as a police since 1986

20 in Finland. Sorry, 1985 in Finland.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you testified before in

22 this Tribunal, or is this the first time that you're appearing as a

23 witness?

24 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you testified in any other

Page 9346

1 court of an international one, but a national one, about the events that

2 took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, or is this the first time you

3 are testifying about them?

4 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you're going to testify, you

6 need to take the solemn declaration, and would you kindly read it now.

7 WITNESS: MIKA TAURU

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please be seated.

11 Before giving the floor to the Prosecution for them to put

12 questions to you, I need to provide you with some information regarding

13 these proceedings. For this Chamber, you're the first investigator coming

14 to testify, though the trial started in December last year, hence the

15 importance of your testimony. Also, as you have sworn to tell the truth,

16 the whole truth, that excludes all forms of false testimony. And as you

17 know, in your country and any country in the world, and also in this

18 Tribunal, perjury can be punished by a fine or a prison sentence. Of

19 course, I draw attention to another point but which shouldn't apply to

20 you, and that is if a witness refuses to answer a particular question, he

21 may do so if he thinks that this could subsequently incriminate him. In

22 this very specific case, the rules of this Tribunal envisage that the

23 witness may be compelled to answer, yet he is guaranteed a form of

24 immunity from punishment, where's in some countries, like the United

25 States, such immunity is provided by the prosecutor. According to our

Page 9347

1 rules, it is the Chamber that gives this immunity. But of course in

2 principle, it shouldn't apply to you.

3 You will have to answer, as you know, questions within the

4 examination-in-chief, which will be conducted by a representative of the

5 Prosecution who is seated to your right. As you know, the questions are

6 of a neutral nature and not leading in any sense. However, the Defence,

7 who are on your left, may put any questions to you, either to verify your

8 credibility or to provide additional information on the context. And they

9 may put to you questions of quite a different nature from those of the

10 Prosecution.

11 At the end of that stage, the Prosecution may have additional

12 questions. Also, the Judges in front of you may ask you questions. In

13 view of your position as investigator, you can envisage that we will have

14 questions for you regarding your work, regarding what you did, the way in

15 which you carried out the instructions of the Prosecution in your

16 investigations, and we will have questions for you which we consider to be

17 useful for a better understanding of this case, and especially of the way

18 in which you worked on the ground. But that will come at the end of the

19 questions of both parties.

20 It's quite possible that we will not have any questions for you,

21 if the parties put the same questions to you. We will only have questions

22 to fill in any missing gaps.

23 So, in summary, that is how the proceedings will evolve. Being a

24 specialist for investigations, you know that your answers have to be clear

25 and precise so that the Judges may fully understand the meaning and the

Page 9348

1 gist of your answers. If the questions appear to you to be complicated or

2 unclear, ask the party putting them to you to rephrase them. And the

3 Chamber will intervene to assist you should the need arise.

4 Without further ado, I shall give the floor to the Prosecution for

5 their examination-in-chief. Madam Benjamin, you have the floor.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tauru. You already indicated your profession at

9 the time period which we're going to speak about when you were at the

10 Tribunal. As a result of your role as an investigator, did you at any

11 time perform a mission with respect to the time period of the indictment

12 in this case, which is January 1993 to March 1994?

13 A. During the years that I worked here, I had many missions to

14 Bosnian and Croatia and also to some other countries, and probably

15 something like 20 to 25 missions.

16 Q. Our mission here this morning is relating particularly to your

17 mission in reference to the indictment period here, which is January 1993

18 to March 1994. And as I said already, did you have cause to go on a

19 mission with respect to that period?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us when you went on the mission?

22 A. Are you talking about the mission in April 2002?

23 Q. Thank you. And could you now explain to us what the mission

24 entailed. What was your role and what duties did you carry out on the

25 mission?

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Page 9350

1 A. The purpose of the mission was to record all the crime scenes that

2 feature in our indictment, to get them professionally photographed and

3 videotaped, and also part of the mission was to take part of -- at least

4 three members of our trial team to get them familiarised with the crime

5 scenes, take them around all the crime sites and crime scenes, and

6 probably the most important thing that we're going to be -- according to

7 my understanding we'll be handling here today was the recording of the

8 destroyed villages in Central Bosnia, the destroyed Croat villages.

9 Q. Along with you on this mission, were there any other parties?

10 A. There was two -- there were two Dutch crime scene specialists and

11 one other investigator from our team, Mr. Tom Parker.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you have a photographer on the -- in the party?

13 A. Yeah. There was two Dutch policemen who were crime scene

14 specialists, so they took the photographs and videotaped the sites.

15 Q. Prior to the pictures being taken, you indicated to us that you

16 drew sketches. Am I right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Prepared sketches?

19 A. Yes. In the beginning of this mission, after I flew to Sarajevo

20 on 6th of April, the following day, on 7th of April, I started preparing

21 sketches of the destroyed villages, together with our local contact person

22 in (Redacted) And before that I had informed him about this,

23 our planned mission, about one month earlier, that we wanted to get all

24 the destroyed houses recorded in those villages.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop. Sir, Mr. Registrar, would

Page 9351

1 you prepare an order for me, please. It's a name that you have just

2 mentioned should not be mentioned. You said -- you say Mr. X. You should

3 say Mr. X.

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Perhaps to make it easy, maybe you can

5 just -- don't mention names of any of the parties. You know, you went to

6 the photographer, you went to the forensic specialist or whatever. Okay.

7 Thanks.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak a little more

9 loudly or approach the microphones. Thank you.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. So you -- before the interruption, you began to tell us that you

12 prepared sketches. And could you tell us how you prepared these

13 sketches. Did you have them in particular groups? How did you do these

14 sketches?

15 A. We proceeded village by village, and before this actual mission

16 was started, like I mentioned earlier, I contacted our contact person in

17 Bosnia and told him about the plan that we were planning such a mission

18 and gave him the criteria, what we were after, the time period regarding

19 each of those villages, and also which kind of damage we requested to be

20 recorded.

21 It was agreed here within the team that we would not take any

22 houses which only carried some bullet holes. There had to be significant

23 damage. And one thing that was also mentioned to this local contact

24 person was that any buildings which had been destroyed during that period

25 in question but had been later reconstructed would not be taken into

Page 9352

1 account.

2 Q. Is it your evidence that the sketches you provided, were they

3 sketches that concerned only destroyed houses during the period of the

4 indictment, the time period?

5 A. Yes, exactly.

6 Q. So on those sketches, we would not be seeing houses that were

7 destroyed after; am I right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, could we --

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Could the witness be shown P81, please. On

11 the ELMO, please.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We could perhaps put it on the

13 ELMO, provided that the names have been concealed.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Maybe for us to save time and to do them

15 together as a bundle, could you tell the Court -- you indicated that you

16 had taken pictures after the sketches; am I correct?

17 A. Pictures of the sketches?

18 Q. No. Did you take pictures of the sites after you drew the

19 sketches?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, did you match your sketches with your pictures?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, in the interests of time,

25 maybe we can let him have his pictures and his sketches so he can just go

Page 9353

1 through one -- same bundle at the same time.

2 So could we have -- yes. Could we give him the -- on the ELMO,

3 please. And the sketch. We could probably put them lengthways. Can they

4 go like this? Lengthways.

5 Q. Mr. Tauru, could you look at the documents before you and first

6 let us start with the sketch. Could you explain to the Court what is --

7 what are you representing there, please.

8 A. I don't really see well the front right-hand corner there. So

9 first there is this marking Ovnak 1, meaning that this was the first

10 sketch prepared of Ovnak village. And then there's a list of names,

11 starting from number 1 until 24, as far as I can see. And then those --

12 all these numbered houses are marked on the sketch along the road leading

13 through the village. And there are some buildings which have been marked

14 with dotted line. That means that those were not actually destroyed

15 houses. They were just marked there for the purpose of helping me in

16 recognising the right building from the aerial photograph, which was taken

17 later. And there's a north arrow also below the name,. And there's also

18 up there is a mosque mark which is kind of an orientation point as well,

19 not meaning that the mosque was destroyed, just as a landmark. And I

20 think -- I don't see that below there should be also - if you take this

21 one out - there should be the -- there should be also the exact

22 coordinates of the certain reference point which is marked with X on the

23 left-hand side of number 20, a couple of centimetres to the left, there's

24 an X marked in the one junction, and that's the place where I took the

25 reference point and marked the coordinates with a GPS device.

Page 9354

1 Q. Now, these sketches, what was the purpose of preparing the

2 sketches? If you notice that there's no scale or anything on this. There

3 are no representative of street names or anything. Could you tell us what

4 is the purpose of doing these sketches?

5 A. The purpose of doing these sketches was just to help me later on

6 to transfer the information from these sketches to the actual aerial

7 photographs, so that I would be able -- be in a position to locate the

8 exact locations of each of those destroyed houses and other buildings.

9 That's why they're not in a scale or anything. It was just like a tool

10 for me to prepare the final product.

11 Q. And would you consider the pictures as the final product? Is that

12 it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, could you look at the corresponding picture to the

15 sketch that you've just shown us. Could you tell us how you related this

16 to that sketch and where we are.

17 A. Those numbers, unfortunately, I don't see really the numbers, just

18 so small -- a small copy of the actual big photograph that was done. It

19 was much bigger in size, much bigger than this A-4 size, so unfortunately

20 we don't obviously have those available, so I don't really see the

21 numbers. But in the original you can see them much better.

22 But anyway, how it was done, you can see the red arrows pointing

23 so certain buildings and also blue arrows. And the red arrows are

24 pointing to real buildings, meaning warm houses, houses that the people

25 lived in. And the red -- sorry. The blue ones are pointing to cold

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Page 9356

1 houses, meaning outbuildings, garages, sheds, barns, and so on.

2 Q. Could I interrupt?

3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, it seems to me that it's not

4 coming through very clear on the ELMO, so I wonder if the witness can be

5 presented with a still copy on his desk so he can -- thanks.

6 A. Okay. So, for example, if you take a look at the house number 2,

7 red arrow pointing to a building, actual building where people used to

8 live in, and below that there's a blue arrow with the number 2 on it,

9 pointing to a certain outbuilding belonging to this same house, the same

10 owner than the actual house.

11 Q. Now, what are those arrows indicating? What are they telling us?

12 What did you see there? Was something wrong with that house? What is ...

13 A. Those are destroyed houses, destroyed buildings.

14 Q. Well, you need to tell the Trial Chamber. So tell us, you know,

15 what the arrows are and ...

16 A. So the arrows are pointing to destroyed houses and outbuildings.

17 Q. The blue signifies a different thing to the red or ...

18 A. Yeah. Blue is it an outbuilding, shed, garage, barn, something

19 like that.

20 Q. And the red is?

21 A. Red is a building where people used to live in, warm building,

22 with the warm colour red. And the blue is a kind of cold colour, meaning

23 that there was no heating, it was just an outbuilding. That's the logic

24 behind it.

25 Q. Now, if we look at picture number 2 in the bundle. Yes. Could

Page 9357

1 you carry on, please.

2 A. The same story. In this picture there are only red arrows,

3 meaning that there are only real houses with people living in that have

4 been destroyed.

5 Q. And from what angle would you say that these pictures were taken?

6 A. This was taken from totally just opposite the -- not exactly. I

7 think the picture number Ovnak 1 was taken from south or south-west, and

8 this is taken from north, as far as I can recall. The same area, anyway,

9 the same village.

10 Q. Okay. So let's look at the sketches that you have and picture

11 number 2, for example. How do you reconcile for us the sketch with the

12 picture? How does -- how did it work? You should have 58, 59 in the

13 bundle, 60. There should be three sketches in the bundle.

14 A. First of all, I have to say that if you talk about sketch number 1

15 of Ovnak and the picture number 1 of Ovnak, they don't necessarily cover

16 exactly the same areas. So in one picture, like in this Ovnak number 2,

17 there are some houses which are not in the sketch number 2. So it's a

18 mixture of different sketches. Because it was impossible for many -- on

19 many occasions to get all the houses which are on a certain sketch, to get

20 under one photograph. So that's why it's like combined information from

21 different sketches. But the main thing is that every single house which

22 has been listed was destroyed is in some of these photographs that were

23 taken.

24 Q. Is it your evidence, then, that the way the bundles are put, the

25 sketches with the photographs, are not necessarily what you wanted to

Page 9358

1 achieve? Is that what you say?

2 A. No. No. No. What I'm saying is that when I went on the ground,

3 I went to certain part of the village and I recorded some part of the

4 village, wrote down and wrote the sketch of that area, but later when we

5 took the aerial photographs, they were not exactly from the same group of

6 houses that I have listed in the sketch. So I tried to make the sketches

7 so -- or the aerial photographs so that there would be as more number as

8 possible as the aerial photographs as possible, so that I was able to

9 combine the information from many of the sketches in one photograph.

10 Otherwise -- because we took -- all together we took 176 aerial

11 photographs. It was a big job to kind of choose the right ones which will

12 be used as those photographs where I then transferred the information from

13 the sketches.

14 Q. What -- I am a bit confused. I'm going to ask you this now: What

15 was the purpose of taking the aerial photographs, of drawing the sketches?

16 What did you want to support? What was the purpose of this? What were

17 you told that you needed these photographs for and these sketches?

18 A. The sketches were drawn for the purpose of getting the exact

19 locations of those buildings on the ground. The houses were marked. All

20 the landmarks were marked. The junctions, little bridges or whatever,

21 paths there were, in order later on to be in a position to mark them on

22 the aerial photographs, which were later taken.

23 Q. But you will agree with me when I say that there's no scale on

24 these things?

25 A. There's no scale. It was just a tool for me to be able to put

Page 9359

1 those buildings on the aerial photographs.

2 Q. Well, how are we going to explain to this Trial Chamber, and for

3 my own knowledge too, that when you say that this is Ovnak 1, how do we

4 really know that that is Ovnak 1, and how are we going to deal with this?

5 Because I'm at a loss myself. What was the plan? How are we going to

6 deal with it?

7 A. Well, I don't know. It's just that, you know, it requires some

8 understanding of the area that you have been to. If you've never been

9 there, it's quite difficult to understand how wide the terrain is; for

10 example, this Ovnak area and Grahovcici. And it's pretty simple when

11 there's a small hamlet with 10, 15 buildings next to each other. You can

12 all get them in one sketch, you can all get them in one picture. As

13 simple as that.

14 But when we're talking about areas which are much wider and there

15 are some buildings here, some buildings there, it doesn't make any sense

16 to make aerial photograph of every single house alone. We have taken

17 photograph of every single house on the ground. We have two photographs

18 every single house, I don't know whether they've been tendered into

19 evidence or not. But anyway, we took about 1.500, 1.677 pictures all

20 together during this mission.

21 Q. You see, the difficulty I have - and I'm sure you will

22 understand - is that I can look at this map and it doesn't tell me

23 anything. The picture, it could tell me I'm in Zenica, it could tell me

24 I'm in Travnik. You understand where I'm coming from?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 9360

1 Q. Okay. So maybe what we could do is maybe you, having been there,

2 could explain to the Trial Chamber as you look at the pictures the areas

3 you were in and what you were actually looking for and what you actually

4 saw. Because I have a difficulty trying to get you, and you seem to have

5 a difficulty too, trying to match them up to the sketches. Because you

6 say --

7 A. I have no problems.

8 Q. -- some of these sketches are not -- like, 1 is not the same as 1.

9 A. You need to get all the sketches together. You get all the photos

10 together to get the basic idea how it was done. If you just pick up one

11 sketch and one photograph, it's difficult to put them together.

12 Q. Okay. So there are about 81 to 89. There are about eight bundles

13 here with sketches and photos. You say that you need all in front of you.

14 A. Uh-huh.

15 Q. Okay.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President. Good day,

18 Your Honours.

19 I'd just like to point something out. Mr. President, I think it

20 would be preferable that when a photo is shown to the witness, it doesn't

21 contain -- or it doesn't bear the name of the place where the photograph

22 was taken, so that we can know whether the witness can recognise the

23 photograph and see whether the photograph corresponds to one of the

24 sketches or not. Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence suggests that the

Page 9361

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Page 9362

1 witness should be shown a photograph without the name of the place

2 mentioned. Everything -- all of this took place a number of years ago, so

3 I believe that it's difficult to put into effect.

4 But what does the Prosecution think about the Defence's idea, that

5 we should show photographs without any references and have the witness say

6 spontaneously that's Ovnak, Kakanj, or X, Y, Z? That's correct, isn't it,

7 Mr. Bourgon?

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I don't

9 want to delay the proceedings. If the witness can establish a

10 correspondence between a sketch and a photograph, then we would be able to

11 see what the correspondence between the two is.

12 Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Tauru, if we show you a

14 photograph or a sketch without a name, would you be able to say that it's

15 such-and-such a village or do you think this would be impossible for you?

16 THE WITNESS: We'll see. I want to say that there are 631

17 destroyed buildings, so I'm quite surprised if I'm able to recognise every

18 single one of them. But I can try.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. But it's not the buildings

20 that are in question, but the villages. On the basis of an aerial

21 photograph, would you be able to say that that is such-and-such a village

22 or on the basis of a sketch would you able to identify a given village on

23 the basis of your recollection?

24 THE WITNESS: Definitely some villages at least.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can try to do

Page 9363

1 this. We'll see.

2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: The Defence's suggestion, and I think that's

3 probably the only other way, because I'm caught -- so my problem is --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can use the

6 names. It's just a matter of having more information in order to

7 establish a correlation between these two elements. We don't want to

8 delay the proceedings.

9 Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Defence counsel,

11 which is concerned with the proceeding, expeditiously, as is the Chamber,

12 does not object to using the means that would allow the witness to

13 identify photographs or sketches. So please continue.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

15 Q. So we will do them bundle by bundle. You look at it and you

16 identify them and see if you can. So let's go. P81. Give him the whole

17 bundle and let him ...

18 A. So you want me to match the sketches with the pictures?

19 Q. And please let us know where we are, which area, and how can you

20 identify, is this a destroyed house of, let's say, number 1 or whatever.

21 A. Well, if we take, for example, this picture Ovnak 3, on the top

22 you can see the Brajkovici church. And then there are four destroyed

23 buildings, number -- I don't see the numbers really well from this

24 picture. At least there's outbuilding of house number 17. I'm not able

25 to say the other numbers.

Page 9364

1 But anyway, that's a picture where the information is taken from

2 sketch number -- sketch Ovnak number 3. You can see on that sketch that

3 that's marked Brajkovici church and there's a 17, 17A mark on the sketch.

4 Those are these -- this is the number 17, the middle of the picture. And

5 then there are numbers 14, 15, and 16 on the sketch, which are those three

6 buildings next to the right-hand edge, and actually the house number 14 is

7 just outside this one photograph by a couple of metres.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could we

10 have the number for the photograph the witness is using. I'm now having a

11 look at a photograph of Ovnak 3. The number is 0179/9974. I don't see

12 the church of Brajkovici in the photograph, but I may be mistaken. I just

13 want to check which photograph he's using and with which sketch it is

14 being used, so that we can see what the correlation that the witness is

15 trying to establish is.

16 Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Ms. Benjamin, we have a

18 sketch marked Ovnak 3, and we have a photograph, and one has the

19 impression that it is a photograph of Ovnak 4. On the photograph Ovnak 4,

20 we can see a church. We can see buildings 17 and 17A. The four buildings

21 the witness mentioned can be seen. Did you show the witness photograph

22 Ovnak 4 with the sketch Ovnak 3? And the number is 2195360.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I've just been informed that

24 if we may be able to put it up on Sanction so that everybody can get a

25 clearer view, and the witness himself.

Page 9365

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

3 Q. So on the screen now would be Ovnak 4. If you look at your

4 screen, Ovnak 4. Are you on your computer screen? What do you see?

5 A. I see Ovnak 4 now.

6 Q. Okay. Could you tell us now? Could you start?

7 A. Okay. So once again, this is now a picture of Ovnak 4 and up

8 there you can see the Brajkovici church next to some kind of football

9 field or whatever, sports field areas. And if you look at the centre of

10 the picture you can see blue arrow with number 17. And next to that is

11 number -- which is not really -- I can't see really clearly, but must be

12 number 17, and on the right-hand side there are two houses visible, number

13 14 --

14 Q. Before I interrupt you, Ovnak 4 matches which sketch?

15 A. Sketch number Ovnak 3.

16 Q. Sketch Ovnak 3? Okay. So on your sketch Ovnak 3, you have number

17 17 as Anto Klaric?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Are we seeing, then, that that is the destroyed house of Anto

20 Klaric? That's what you're trying to say?

21 A. Exactly. Plus the outbuilding of Anto Klaric.

22 Q. So if we bring up the pictures on the scene, would you be able to

23 assist us matching the sketches so we can move on?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Okay. So that you can identify each one. So could we go to that.

Page 9366

1 Let's start with the first one. Could you tell us the corresponding

2 sketch and where we are.

3 A. Now I can see picture Ovnak 1, and that must be -- must be sketch

4 also number 1, Ovnak 1. So there you can see those buildings which have

5 been marked on the sketch, and if you look at the X on the sketch, the

6 reference point, it's next to the house number 2, there's a junction, and

7 that's the reference point where I took the reading of the GPS device,

8 because that's the clear reference point, junction of two little roads.

9 And those houses marked on that picture number 1, they are all seen on

10 this sketch number 1, Ovnak 1.

11 Q. So where we see number 1 in the sketch and number 1 in the photo,

12 does that mean that number 1 corresponds with number 1 on the photo?

13 A. Exactly.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Tauru, you did the sketches and you did the pictures, so

15 could you walk us through.

16 A. So you want me to go --

17 Q. Yes. Walk us through for the Court so that the Court will

18 understand how the pictures were taken and the purpose of the pictures.

19 That's the exercise here today.

20 A. So the house number 1 in the sketch is house number 1 on the

21 picture. The same goes all the way until number 19, which is the largest

22 number, the biggest number in this Ovnak number 1 picture. The remaining

23 of these houses which have been listed in the sketch number 1 are in some

24 other picture. They are listed in picture Ovnak 2. As you can see,

25 again, I'm not able to read the numbers on this. It's a poor copy. But

Page 9367

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Page 9368

1 these numbers, they must go up from 20 to 24 or something like that. And

2 those are the houses which have been listed in this sketch number 1.

3 Q. Are you seeing the picture on the screen in front of you?

4 A. Ovnak number 2. I have it in my hand.

5 Q. So do you want Ovnak number 2 now?

6 A. Yeah, fine.

7 Q. Okay. As you're ready to move on, please indicate to us.

8 A. So now you have this aerial photo Ovnak 2 and you can see the

9 numbers going up from 20 to 24. And those are the --

10 Q. Would that be sketch number 2 then?

11 A. No. It's the remaining numbers of sketch number 1.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. You can see the numbers go with sketch number 1 from 1 until 24,

14 and the first picture covered the numbers from 1 until 19. Now we are

15 talking about numbers from 20 to 24, which are on this picture number 2.

16 But also in this picture number 2, we can see numbers 1 and 3, and these

17 pictures -- these houses are on sketch number 2. You can see there

18 number 1 -- actually, number 1, 2, and 3, at the bottom of that picture

19 number 2. And those three buildings have been listed in sketch number 2,

20 numbers 1, 2, and 3.

21 Q. And for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and for my own benefit,

22 and I'm sure for the Defence's benefit, when these pictures were taken, is

23 it your testimony that the houses were still destroyed?

24 A. Yes. Or there was at least significant damage on them. And if I

25 get Ovnak 3 picture on the screen.

Page 9369

1 Okay. Now we have picture number 3, and we have sketch number 2.

2 We have numbers from 8 until 13 on the sketch, and here we have houses

3 marked with numbers 8 to 13 on the picture. This is the same road that in

4 the previous picture, and these are the destroyed houses next to the road,

5 marked number from 8 until 13.

6 And if you now change to Ovnak 4. You see the Brajkovici church

7 and some buildings which are listed in the sketch number 3.

8 Q. And what church are we talking about, please?

9 A. Brajkovici church.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. So you see there are four pictures and three sketches. But all

12 the numbers are consistent with the numbers on the sketches.

13 Q. And when we look at the whole group that you've shown us now, the

14 pictures and the sketches, what do you want to tell the Trial Chamber

15 about the picture and the sketches? What do they represent?

16 A. They represent the destroyed houses in the village of Ovnak.

17 Q. During what period?

18 A. During the period of June 1993. And these were -- the sketches

19 were prepared and aerial photographs were taken in April 2002.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I'm not sure how we are going

22 to proceed. Are we going to have them admitted bundle by bundle or are we

23 going to wait until the end?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is better to do it at the

25 end, because the Defence will cross-examine. So perhaps we could speed

Page 9370

1 things up a little, because it would be sufficient, as we have the

2 photographs on the Sanction system and he has the sketches, he can tell us

3 straight away that the photograph corresponds to sketch number so-and-so.

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Could we move on to P82, please.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wish to underline that we've

7 already gone through this exercise in March with another witness. This

8 exercise of comparing sketches and photographs has already been done. But

9 obviously the witness wasn't there, and as the Defence wants this to be

10 authenticated by the witness, we have him here now. But perhaps we could

11 do it more quickly.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

13 Q. So could we start with P82. Could the witness be shown ...

14 So we have the second bundle before you, and it contains pictures

15 01799976 to 01799978. Am I correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And we have the sketches before you, 02195361 to 5363.

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. So quickly could you go through the routine that you went through

20 before, just quickly letting us know if they correspond to your sketches.

21 That's the whole idea.

22 A. Yeah. So if we take the Susanj number 1 photo and the Susanj 1

23 sketch, on the sketch we have four houses listed there from 1 to 4, and

24 you can see those 1 to 4 numbered in this picture number Susanj 1. If you

25 start from the up -- you can see 1, 2, 3, 4. And in the same picture, we

Page 9371

1 have also some other houses marked, at least 24 and 23 are there, so we

2 have to take the sketch number 3, Susanj 3. And these houses are marked

3 on sketch number 3 but are in the same picture than the houses marked on

4 sketch number 1.

5 Q. And number 2 is up on the screen, so if you ...

6 A. Yeah. And then sketch number 2, you have numbers from 8 until 22,

7 and you can see those numbers on this picture as well. And if you take

8 picture number Susanj 3, you will see the remaining four buildings, I

9 guess, number 27, 21, and 25.

10 Q. [Microphone not activated] And that would be on sketch number...

11 A. On sketch 3. And the number 21 you can see on picture -- on

12 sketch number 2.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated] And once again, these pictures

14 represent?

15 A. They represent the damage done to the village during June 1993.

16 Q. Okay. Could we go to P83, please. It's up on your screen?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yes. Look at it now. Can you see it now?

19 A. No. Now it's coming. So here we have Miletici, and this is one

20 of the villages in which luckily all the houses were located next to each

21 other so we were able to get them all in one picture. So one picture and

22 sketch and they correspond to each other, numbering 1 to 12.

23 Q. Would that be sketch 02195364?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. ERN, okay. So could you quickly tell us?

Page 9372

1 A. Yes. They are houses numbered from 1 to 12 in the sketch and the

2 same numbers can be seen on the photograph. And this was representing the

3 damage done to this village in April 1993.

4 Q. P84, please.

5 A. And this is Brajkovici 1 picture, and in this picture you can see

6 house number 1, which is marked on the sketch Brajkovici. So there's only

7 one house and two outbuildings.

8 Q. 2.

9 A. And this is picture Brajkovici number 2, and on the left-hand side

10 you can just see the edge of the church, which was our landmark. And next

11 to that, on the right-hand side, is house number 2, which can be seen on

12 the sketch Brajkovici as number 2. So only three houses were destroyed in

13 this village during June 1993.

14 So here we have number -- Grahovcici number 1, and in brackets,

15 Plavicici, and it totally corresponds to the sketch Grahovcici 1,

16 Plavicici in brackets. You can see the numbers -- house numbered from

17 number 1 until number 12 in this one picture. And this was June 1993.

18 In this picture, we have Grahovcici number 2, Milika in brackets,

19 and we have house numbered 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. 1, 3, and 4 can be seen,

20 and number 6 will be in some other picture. And these numbers from 12

21 until 19 will be seen in sketch -- my copies are really bad. I'm not

22 really able to tell. But anyway, they are from a certain other sketch.

23 They are really bad copies, I'm sorry to say. I can see hardly anything

24 from these copies.

25 But anyway, this is a picture where the houses marked on it come

Page 9373

1 from two different sketches. The first one from this Milika and the

2 second one from some other, which I'm not able to tell from these copies.

3 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, we have some brighter copies.

4 May the witness ...

5 A. Yes. Now I got the right one. So this is sketch number

6 Grahovcici 3, and in brackets, Milika, and there you can see the numbers,

7 numbers from 12 to 19, which you can see also on the sketch next to the

8 north arrow, below the north arrow mark. And here you can see on the

9 sketch you have seen -- you can see the school marked on it, and it's also

10 in the middle of the picture there. So now we have picture Grahovcici 3,

11 Milika in brackets. And we have numbers 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6 from Milika.

12 Q. Would this Milika be the sketch and in 5387? Would that be the...

13 We gave you a clearer bundle of sketches. Mr. Tauru, the bundle of

14 sketches that we gave you has everything in there, so you should get a

15 clearer bundle.

16 A. Yeah. But there's many of them, so it's difficult to find.

17 Q. 02195387. They're supposed to be in order.

18 A. Yeah. These houses in this picture number 3, number 1, you can

19 see on this sketch Grahovcici 2 (Milika). Number 3, 4, 5, and 6 on the

20 left-hand side of the picture are from this Milika 2 sketch. Grahovcici 2

21 (Milika) sketch. And the other numbers from I think 20 to 27, they can be

22 seen on the sketch Grahovcici 3, in brackets, Milika. We see the numbers

23 are running to -- up to 28. And the sketch -- and number 27 is the

24 biggest number in this one.

25 So Grahovcici number 4 (Bilici), and there's a sketch

Page 9374

1 Grahovcici 5, in brackets Bilici. House numbered from 1 to 29 in this

2 sketch, and some of these houses are in this picture, from 19 until 23.

3 Now we have the picture Grahovcici 5, Bilici in brackets, and

4 there are houses from 1 until 24, and they can be all seen in this sketch

5 Grahovcici 5, Bilici in brackets.

6 Then picture Grahovcici number 6, in brackets, Bilici and

7 Cuturici. Numbers from 25 until 29 on the left-hand side of the picture,

8 from Bilici, marked on this Bilici sketch, Grahovcici 5, and the houses on

9 the right-hand side of the picture are from sketch Grahovcici number 7, in

10 brackets, Cuturici, houses numbered from 1 until 14. And they all can be

11 seen in this picture.

12 And Grahovcici number 7, Nikolici in brackets, houses numbered

13 from 1 until 7. It matches to the sketch number Grahovcici 4, in

14 brackets, Nikolici. So there's one picture and one sketch for this town.

15 Grahovcici number 8, Orovac in brackets, houses numbered from 1

16 until 5. And you can all see them in this one picture.

17 Grahovcici number 9, Sikala in brackets, houses numbered from 1

18 to 9, and it matches sketch Grahovcici number 8, Sikala in brackets.

19 Grahovcici number 10, Barbici in brackets, houses numbered from 3

20 to 12, and all these same numbers are on the picture. That was the last

21 one, Grahovcici.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think this would be a

23 convenient time for us to have the break now.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 10.30. We're going to

25 have the technical break and we will resume at five to 11.00.

Page 9375

1 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, you may take the

4 floor. We will continue now.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Tauru, we will just continue rapidly in the same vein that we

7 started with.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: And could the witness be shown Prosecution

9 Exhibit 86, please.

10 A. Okay. So in this picture is the Guca Gora number 1 photo, and

11 Guca Gora number 1 sketch is the one which has all the houses marked on

12 this picture. It starts from the number 1 on the right-hand side of the

13 picture. It's in the bottom of the sketch. And the school is marked

14 there as well, which can be seen, the big building in the photo. And

15 those houses are numbered going to the left all the time, following the

16 road, up until number 13, I think, and it's consistent with the sketch.

17 The next one, please. Here is photo Guca Gora number 2, and we go

18 with the same sketch. Guca Gora number 1, going up on the sketch, you can

19 see number 14, the first one on the sketch, and it should be on the

20 picture as well. Sorry. I -- this is a different one. This is taken

21 from north of the monastery.

22 Yeah. It's still the same sketch but I have to start from the

23 left-hand side. The house number 14 is up there, just below the title

24 Guca Gora. And we go to the right, right in the picture, and the numbers

25 are going up until 29, I think. Just on the right-hand side of the

Page 9376

1 monastery in the picture is the edge of this sketch number Guca Gora 1.

2 And the other houses numbered on the right-hand side, 38, 39, 40, 41, and

3 so on, will be seen in sketch number Guca Gora 2. House 38 and up from

4 that. This is until the number 45 in this picture Guca Gora 2. And some

5 houses which are located below the monastery in the top part of the

6 photograph are numbered in the sketch number Guca Gora 1, houses numbered

7 up until number 29.

8 Next one, please. This is picture Guca Gora number 3, and the

9 area below the monastery, which will be -- is in the middle of the

10 picture. And those houses marked 32 -- 30 to 37, I think, are mentioned

11 in the sketch number Guca Gora 1 on the top left-hand corner, where you

12 can see those buildings marked. Plus there's one building just on the

13 top, number 60, and there's sketch number Guca Gora 4. It's about 800

14 metres above the monastery.

15 The next one, please. This is picture Guca Gora number 4, numbers

16 from 46 until 51, I think. And these numbers are -- or these houses have

17 been marked on sketch number Guca Gora 2.

18 Next one, please. This is Guca Gora 5 picture, and those houses

19 numbered from 52 to 57 are marked on sketch number Guca Gora 2. Houses on

20 top of that sketch. And then on the right-hand side of this picture

21 Guca Gora 5, there are four -- three or four other houses which are

22 also -- which are marked on sketch number Guca Gora 3, numbers 58 and 59,

23 and some outbuildings.

24 Next one, please.

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: May the witness be shown P87, please.

Page 9377

1 A. This is picture Maline number 1, houses marked from 1 to 5, and

2 these houses can be seen on the sketch Maline 1, numbers 1 to 5.

3 Next one, please. Picture number Maline 2, from 6 until 11,

4 or 12. I don't see clearly. Anyway, from the same sketch, from 6

5 until 12, are marked on this. So it's only from 6 until 11, as far as I

6 can see, from the sketch Maline 1. And those numbers from 16, 41 will be

7 seen on sketch Maline 2. The houses on the bottom of the picture will be

8 seen on the bottom of this sketch on the left-hand bottom corner.

9 Next one, please. Picture Maline number 3, and all these numbers

10 will be on sketch Maline 2. That's the centre of the village, and all

11 those have been marked on the -- on this map, except number 44 on the left

12 top-hand corner, which is in sketch Maline number 3, house number 44.

13 Next one, please. This is picture Maline number 4, and the sketch

14 is Maline number 3. In the middle of the sketch you will see the

15 graveyard marked, and that graveyard is the one on the right top-hand

16 corner of the picture. And the houses are marked from 45 to 49,

17 consistent with the sketch.

18 Next one.

19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: P88, please.

20 A. I have a question. Donje Cukle, is it upper or lower Cukle? Does

21 anybody know? It helps me a little bit.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

23 Q. This is very interesting, because you're the author of the

24 picture.

25 A. There's upper and lower, and if I knew which one this was, it

Page 9378

1 would be easier for me to ...

2 Q. Maybe if you look at your sketch, it may be able to help you.

3 A. Okay. This is picture Donje Cukle number 1, and it's the sketch

4 Donje Cukle number 1 as well, houses marked from 1 to 7 will be seen on

5 the sketch as well.

6 Next one, please. This is Donje Cukle number 2, and this has lots

7 of houses from many different sketches, at least numbers 21 to 28 from

8 sketch number Donje Cukle 3 are in this picture. Also from the sketch

9 Donje Cukle 6, houses numbered from 11 to 17 are on this picture. And

10 also sketch Donje Cukle number 2 has the houses numbered 17, 18, and 20

11 are on this picture. And the houses number 10 and below that on the

12 right-hand corner are mentioned in the sketch number 5, Donje Cukle 5,

13 houses numbered from 1 to 10. And I think that covers this picture.

14 Next one, please. This is picture Donje Cukle number 3, and we

15 have to have a sketch number Donje Cukle 4. We can see all these

16 buildings marked on the sketch, from 29 until 38. They are on this

17 sketch.

18 Next one, please. Donje Cukle 4 is the picture, and Donje Cukle 4

19 is also the sketch with all these numbered houses, from 39 to 44.

20 Next one, please. This is picture Donje Cukle number 5, and we

21 have to have the Donje Cukle number 4 sketch, which has a school marked on

22 it in the middle, and you can see also the school in the picture on the

23 left-hand side of house number 21. These houses from 18 to 21 in the

24 middle of the picture are from sketch Donje Cukle 3, and the houses from

25 number 11 to 17 can be seen on sketch Donje Cukle 6. And this one

Page 9379

1 building on the bottom left-hand corner, number 9, can be seen on

2 Donje Cukle number 5 sketch.

3 Next one, please. Donje Cukle number 6 is the picture, and the

4 sketch is Donje Cukle number 4, with houses numbered from 23 to 40. And

5 again, the school is on the left on the picture, and in the sketch it's

6 above those houses.

7 Next one, please.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: May the witness be shown P89, please.

9 A. Yeah. This is Gornji Cukle number 1, and the first -- there are

10 also many houses on different sketches. And if we start from the left

11 upper hand corner, there's house number 22, and that's marked on

12 Gornji Cukle 1 sketch, houses number 22, 20, and 21, 19 as well. I don't

13 see so clearly.

14 And then in the same -- from the same sketch, we have houses

15 numbered 16, 17, 15, and 14, coming towards the centre of the picture.

16 Q. Perhaps, Witness, if you look at the last bundle that we gave you,

17 those sketches are clearer than the ones you're looking at.

18 A. These are pretty clear, it's just that there's so many houses and

19 it's difficult to...

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Because I'm not able to see clearly the numbers of the -- on the

22 photo. But they must be from the sketch number 4, those houses in the

23 middle of the picture, numbered from 1 to 15. Yes, exactly. That's the

24 one.

25 The next one, please. This is Gornji Cukle 2, is the picture, and

Page 9380

1 those houses will be seen in sketch number Gornji Cukle 2, numbered 4

2 to 7.

3 Next one, please. This is picture Gornji Cukle number 3, in

4 brackets, Bare, and the sketch is Gornji Cukle 3, in brackets, Bare,

5 Kovacica Kuce. And these houses, starting from number 1, from the left,

6 are seen on the bottom of this Gornji Cukle 3 sketch, up until the

7 number 14.

8 Next one, please. This is picture Gornji Cukle number 4, Bare in

9 brackets. It's the end of the same village. And those houses marked from

10 15 to 22 will be seen also in the sketch number 3 of Gornji Cukle.

11 Next one, please. Gornji Cukle number 5 is the picture, in

12 brackets, Bare. This is the most upper part of the village. And those

13 houses numbered from 23 to 24 are in the top of that Gornji Cukle number 3

14 sketch.

15 Next one, please. The picture is Gornji Cukle number 6, Kovacica

16 Kuce in brackets, houses marked with numbers 24, I guess, or 5 - I don't

17 see clearly. But anyway, they are in the same sketch, the Gornji Cukle

18 number 3, on the left top corner.

19 The next one, please. Gornji Cukle number 7 is the picture, in

20 brackets, Novo Selo. And this is sketch number 4 of Gornji Cukle, in

21 brackets, Novo Selo. The houses marked on the top of that sketch, from 1

22 to 3.

23 Next one, please. Gornji Cukle number 8, in brackets, Novo Selo.

24 The same sketch, Gornji Cukle number 4, houses from number 4 to number 8

25 are in this picture.

Page 9381

1 The next one, please. Gornji Cukle number 9, in brackets,

2 Novo Selo. The same sketch, Gornji Cukle number 4, houses from 9 to 15

3 are marked on this map, like also in the sketch.

4 The next one, please.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Okay. That's the end of the sketches and the

6 pictures, Mr. Tauru.

7 Q. And my final question to you would be: You indicated to us that

8 your mission was to take these pictures and to prepare the sketches,

9 corresponding sketches. You had to have done some sort of investigations

10 before you prepared the sketches. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes. Actually, I don't know if you're referring to the

12 instructions I gave to the contact person.

13 Q. Aside from that, what I'm trying to ask is: Did investigations

14 with any particular group of people were done before the sketches were

15 done and the pictures were taken?

16 A. Sorry. I don't think I understand the question.

17 Q. Did you speak to anybody on the ground?

18 A. Not other than the local contact that we had. And of course, we

19 had been talking to some witnesses before regarding these incidents, and

20 also after.

21 Q. Thank you. And the witnesses would have been the owners of these

22 houses, or who would have been these witnesses?

23 A. The witnesses were -- especially after this mission, they were the

24 owners of those houses and the people who remained in the village after

25 the village was taken over by the BH army.

Page 9382

1 Q. And it is your evidence that the pictures that were taken and the

2 sketches that were drawn were pictures taken of houses which were damaged

3 during the period of the indictment? Is it that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, that concludes the

7 examination-in-chief of this witness.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Benjamin.

9 Are the Defence counsel ready for their questions? Do they have

10 any questions for the witness? Mr. Bourgon.

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:

13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tauru.

14 A. Good morning.

15 Q. I believe we know each other from your previous time at the

16 Tribunal, but for the benefit of the transcript, let me introduce myself.

17 I am accompanied this morning with my colleague, Mrs. Edina Residovic, as

18 well as my colleague, Mr. Alexis Demirdjian, and my name is Stefane

19 Bourgon. Together we represent General Hadzihasanovic.

20 I only have a few questions for you this morning, and I guess I

21 can simply proceed directly with my questions. If at any time there's a

22 question that you do not understand, feel free to ask for further

23 clarification and I will provide those to you.

24 The first thing I would like to confirm, Mr. Tauru, is that you

25 were an investigator with the Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal

Page 9383

1 from 1999 to the year 2002.

2 A. Yeah, that's correct.

3 Q. And that during this time frame, you conducted or took part in

4 approximately 20 to 25 investigation missions in many areas of the former

5 Yugoslavia?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And today the specific mission that we are talking about in the

8 course of your examination-in-chief is the result of a mission you

9 conducted or took part in, in April of 2002; is that correct?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Now, can you confirm, Mr. Tauru, that the object of this mission,

12 and I'm looking at the answers you provided to my colleague, but that the

13 object of this mission was to record the crime scenes related to the

14 indictment against General Hadzihasanovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you also wanted to make professional photographs and videos of

17 those crime scenes?

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. And the object as well was to familiarise members of the

20 Prosecution team with the crime scenes?

21 A. That's correct.

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I ask for a

23 private session, please.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us go into private

25 session, please.

Page 9384

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Page 9385

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Page 9386

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are in open

25 session.

Page 9387

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. [In English] In response to a question asked by my colleague from

3 the Prosecution, you mentioned that no houses destroyed after this period

4 were recorded. I take it that the period you were referring to was the

5 period of the indictment, which is from January of 1993 to February of

6 1994, so that no houses destroyed after 1994 would have been recorded. Am

7 I correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes. I mean, from -- after January 1994, no after that.

9 Q. And of course your -- the Witness ZI, on the basis of the

10 guidelines that you provided him, he set out to identify the houses you

11 were looking for, which he then provided you with some information, and

12 according to his testimony, he also gave you his own sketches, which

13 looked very much like yours. Can you confirm this?

14 A. No. He didn't give me any of his sketches. He kept them by

15 himself, and I asked him to keep them just in case they will be needed in

16 a later stage. I only prepared my own sketches, based on the information

17 I got from him. He still has those sketches.

18 Q. So you never used his sketches to prepare yours?

19 A. I never took them from him. We had a look at them. We were

20 comparing them. But he kept them and still has them, as far as I

21 understand.

22 Q. But my question is quite simple: Simply if it was used -- if

23 those sketches were used to produce yours.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Now, when you, in terms of the information you had to produce

Page 9388

1 these sketches, you had, of course, the pictures which were taken after

2 the mission, or at the end of the mission, and you had the information

3 from Witness ZI; am I correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you then proceeded to Sarajevo, which is the area where you,

6 based on this information, produced your own sketches?

7 A. No. I produced the sketches on the spot, in each village. We

8 went to the village. I started to prepare my sketch. And after we

9 finished, I finished with the sketch, we went to the next village. So I

10 finished the sketch in the village. First we just wrote down the numbers

11 of the buildings and I marked the buildings, and after we had marked all

12 those buildings, we stopped and we started to write down the names of the

13 owners. So house number 1, owner this and this, and house number 2, owner

14 this and this, until all those houses had the owners marked on my sketch.

15 Q. And all along, this was the information coming from Witness ZI

16 that you included in those sketches so that you would have all the

17 information when you returned to Sarajevo, because you mentioned returning

18 to Sarajevo this morning. That's why I made reference to this.

19 A. Yeah. But it took many days to get those sketches done. It was

20 not done in one day.

21 Q. Okay. Now, can you confirm that what you mentioned earlier, that

22 these sketches were not drawn up to scale, because in fact they were only

23 to be used as a tool to assist you in labelling the pictures, which were

24 really your final product that you were looking for?

25 A. Yes, exactly.

Page 9389

1 Q. And you would agree with me, as you mentioned, that these

2 sketches, if someone were to try and use them, it would require a thorough

3 knowledge of the area, due to the difficulty in reading the land in

4 Central Bosnia?

5 A. Yeah. I would say so.

6 Q. Now, nevertheless, these sketches that we have seen today, they

7 are your sketches?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you would agree with me that those sketches basically

10 represent the destruction, or the houses you were looking for, according

11 to your criteria, at the time that you had requested them, which is the

12 month, the specific month that you referred to, to Witness ZI?

13 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

14 Q. Now, would I be right in saying that you do not know how or in

15 what context these houses were destroyed, and to be more specific, whether

16 these houses were destroyed by mortar rounds, by grenades, by gunfire, by

17 burning, or by any other means, and you do not have this information; am I

18 correct?

19 A. Well, I have them -- I don't have them listed anywhere, but I have

20 taken or we have taken photographs of every single house that has been

21 listed here. But when I gave the test to our contact person to find the

22 information regarding these villages, it was only a question of, you know,

23 how many houses and who are the owners, and not that exactly how was this

24 house, this particular house destroyed and how about this one. So on the

25 spot then and they all been, you know, recorded on the -- by

Page 9390

1 photographing.

2 Q. By photographing.

3 A. From aerial photographs and also on the ground.

4 Q. So you do not -- you can confirm that you do not have information

5 which was provided to you by Witness ZI concerning exactly how these

6 houses were destroyed?

7 A. No, not during that mission. But after that, we decided that we

8 will have to take more witnesses who will be able to testify about the

9 incidents and what happened in the villages. So during this process when

10 he went to the villages, he recognised many good witnesses who had stayed

11 behind and had the knowledge of this, so later on during our mission, the

12 same mission that I took this contact person's statement, we took many

13 statements from the witnesses who were able to tell what happened actually

14 in the villages after they were attacked and who did the damage and how

15 was the damage done and so on.

16 Q. Now, you, Mr. Tauru, would have nothing to add to what these

17 witnesses would come and say in Court?

18 A. No. They have much better knowledge than I have.

19 Q. And actually, you do not have any information which you could

20 provide us as to exactly who committed the damage on these houses?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And you could not provide us with any specific information as to

23 exactly when these houses were destroyed other than in those periods,

24 those months that you referred to?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9391

1 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should simply like

3 to point out that I didn't put any question to this witness that was

4 addressed yesterday regarding the participation of the witness in an

5 inquiry in Sarajevo. I preferred to wait for the Judges to put their

6 questions and then see whether I have anything additional to ask.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the other Defence team have

8 any questions for this witness as part of the cross-examination?

9 Mr. Dixon.

10 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. [Previous translation

11 continues]... questions asked by Mr. Bourgon, Your Honours, we have no

12 additional questions on behalf of Mr. Kubura for this witness. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Has the Prosecution any

14 re-examination before the Judges ask their questions?

15 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Mr. Tauru, we are going to ask you a few questions which will

18 focus on your work as an investigator on the spot through the sketches

19 that you made.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my first question is: When

22 you said that you were a police officer, so according to my calculations,

23 you were 36 years old at the time, so you were an experienced police

24 officer, and you told us --

25 A. [Previous translation continues]... age. I was a bit older than

Page 9392

1 36. But anyway. Born in 1963, so ...

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to my calculations,

3 that is 36. But anyway, that's a minor detail.

4 The purpose of my question was not your age, but rather the way in

5 which you worked. You told us that you went on 20 to 26 missions. But

6 before leaving on mission, what would you receive as instructions from the

7 OTP as to the way in which you should conduct your inquiries? Did you

8 have carte blanche, you were free to do what you wanted, or did you have

9 very precise guidelines as to the way in which you should act? Because if

10 there is a police investigation, there's always the head of the

11 investigation who will determine the modalities. So could you tell us,

12 the Chamber, how you proceeded when conducting your investigations.

13 A. First of all, I would like to point out that all the guidelines

14 particularly were made already here in The Hague, together with the senior

15 trial attorney, Ekkehard Withopf, we discussed this issue, how we are

16 going to do this mission, and we agreed to do it exactly the same way that

17 it's been explained here for a couple of times already. So he made a

18 decision about the time frame that it's going to be exactly the calendar

19 month that each particular village was attacked in 1993 or 1994, also that

20 we wouldn't record any of the reconstructed houses which have been -- even

21 though that they have been destroyed during the period in question, and

22 also that we wouldn't take any small damage, like bullet holes or just

23 something minor damage to the house. It has to be significant damage.

24 And also we discussed about the role of the -- how we're going to do it

25 with the Dutch crime scene specialists. We agreed that we would not

Page 9393

1 videotape those destroyed buildings, that we would take the aerial

2 photographs, and we took them all together, 176 photos of those ten

3 villages. And we then took photographs on the ground of each of those

4 destroyed villages so that -- each of destroyed houses so that we had the

5 whole building. We took one from the south, one from the northern side,

6 so that we had covered the whole building, or from east and west, and so

7 on.

8 And from some of the outbuildings, we took only one, if it was not

9 that necessary, or important, that building, just small ruins, just one

10 picture was enough. So this was the way we proceeded. And later on,

11 after preparing the sketches and taking the aerial photographs, I returned

12 to The Hague and worked on those aerial photographs. I wanted to pick up

13 the best photographs to cover the villages. Out of those 176, I picked up

14 42, I guess, and transferred the information from the sketches. How I did

15 it was that I marked with my own pen, either red or blue pen, and then the

16 Dutch police officers came back and picked all the pictures, and they made

17 the final board actually by doing -- making the arrows by computer. And

18 that's the pictures you have with you today.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

20 you were on the spot, following instructions given by the OTP, and you

21 were accompanied on this mission by two Dutch specialists who assisted

22 you.

23 A. Yes. They assisted me after I had taken already the sketches.

24 When making the sketches, I was working only with the contact person and

25 the following week came the Dutch crime scene specialists, and they took

Page 9394

1 the aerial photos first and went through all the villages.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So the contact person,

3 Mr. X, so the contact person, who chose him? Was it you? Was it the OTP?

4 Or someone told you, you should take Mr. X? Who chose this person?

5 A. Well, we had been making cooperation with this particular person

6 for already some years, so he was always the person to contact when we had

7 a mission, when we needed to get witnesses, so that's why he was an

8 obvious choice.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. So he had a -- he was a

10 kind of privileged correspondent. Did you have any evidence regarding

11 this gentleman that would guarantee that he would be objective? Because a

12 serious and professional investigation would require such objectivity.

13 A. I don't know too much about his background. I just know that he

14 has been involved in some kind of intelligence organ in Bosnia. And I

15 know that he's been living in the area for many years, all his life,

16 probably, as far as I recall, and he knows also really well the area. So

17 in many ways he was the right person. There was not even any discussion

18 about getting somebody else, because he was our contact person and that's

19 it. And he had been proven to be a really effective and reliable during

20 all the previous missions that we'd been having and never let us down in

21 anything.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you are a professional

23 investigator, and in this hall there are several persons who have engaged

24 in investigations. Isn't it normal for an investigator to go on the spot,

25 to meet someone by chance, a witness, and ask him questions, and then, on

Page 9395

1 that basis, the basis is established for the investigation? Why did you

2 choose a person selected in advance? Would you work in that way in your

3 own country, or is this a specific method of procedure?

4 A. Well, it is a little bit specific method because you have to bear

5 in mind that many of those villages that we are talking about today are

6 totally empty. There are no people in those villages at all. So it

7 doesn't make much sense to go there, since there's nobody. And in some

8 villages, there are only Bosniaks and we don't want to go there and start

9 talking about these incidents with them.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And we saw a moment ago the

11 aerial photographs. You identified all those photographs. It is true

12 that on those photographs, we can't see anyone on the ground, at least

13 from the height from which they were taken. Are you telling us that when

14 you went there on the spot, there was no one there, or were there people

15 around?

16 A. In some of the bigger villages of course there were people around

17 because people have returned to some of the villages, but some of the

18 smaller ones like, you know, Dusina, Miletici, there's nobody there. But

19 of course Grahovcici, Cukle they are huge villages and there are many

20 people who have returned. So we also talked with them a little bit

21 because of course they were interested in what we were doing.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. You're making a

23 distinction between small villages and larger settlements. When you were

24 there, did you have an interpreter with you?

25 A. Yes, we had an interpreter.

Page 9396

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you arrived in an important

2 settlement, with many houses and some inhabitants. Within the framework

3 of your activities as investigator, did you get in touch with inhabitants?

4 Did you introduce yourself? Did you say that you had been sent there by

5 the OTP in The Hague to make certain inquiries? Did you make such contact

6 with the inhabitants?

7 A. I didn't really make any contacts by myself. The fact was that

8 since our local contact person had been circling around the villages and

9 gathering the information, most of the villages already have heard about

10 this.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But what prevented you from

12 getting in touch with those people yourself and asking them: You were

13 there in 1993. What happened to you? Did you leave, et cetera. You

14 didn't do any of that?

15 A. Yeah. That was not exactly the purpose of the mission. We had a

16 really tight schedule and time frame. There were much more destroyed

17 houses than we were expecting, and there was bad weather so that was also

18 causing a lot of problems, and we all was kind of, you know, get our

19 schedule, so that's why -- concentrating on what we were supposed to do on

20 that particular mission.

21 But if I may continue. But --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the purpose of an

23 investigation, isn't it to collect evidence so as to be able to

24 specifically define an offence made and to identify the perpetrator?

25 Isn't that the basic function of any inquiry? The main purpose of any

Page 9397

1 investigation?

2 A. Yes. You can say that that's the main purpose, but it was not the

3 main purpose of this particular mission. Like I said, there were really a

4 huge number of houses, and if we stopped to talk with every single person

5 who came by us, that would have totally ruined the whole schedule of this

6 mission.

7 But like I said earlier, based on the work done by our contact

8 person, he developed many reliable and good and useful witnesses by going

9 around in the villages, and those persons that he identified, they were

10 then later, the following month, in June 2002, just, you know, the next

11 mission we had to the area, those people were interviewed during that

12 mission.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the course of this mission

14 which took place in several stages, as an investigator and a police

15 officer who was in charge of investigating buildings that were torched and

16 destroyed, you know that technical elements involved in a fire, and

17 usually it's necessary to have an expert who could say how a fire was set,

18 whether it was with petrol, whether flame-thrower, et cetera, or was it

19 the result of a shell or mortar shell or grenade. No one thought that you

20 should be assisted by an expert on fires?

21 A. No, we never thought about -- talked about this kind of issue.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In spite of the fact that you

23 didn't think about this, you said that you took photographs of houses.

24 What prevented you from making a personal note on the basis of each

25 individual house, saying that this house that belongs to a certain person

Page 9398

1 is as follows: You could say that at the ground floor a door was broken,

2 that on the first floor you could see that there was certain damage, that

3 the roof no longer existed? What prevented you from describing each

4 individual house and establishing your personal conclusion, for example,

5 saying that, "It seems to me the fire, the destruction was caused at

6 such-and-such a period, at the same time as the events that we are

7 investigating or after these events." No one had the idea of doing this?

8 So rather than making sketches, et cetera, and then this note could have

9 been attached to the photographs you had taken?

10 A. Yeah. That's something we never discussed. But, like you

11 mentioned about fire, I was able to tell was it burned during the one

12 particular month ten years ago or was it burned later, that's totally

13 impossible to tell, no matter which kind of expert I would have taken with

14 me. That I know for sure from my own experience. And we thought that

15 taking aerial photographs plus taking separate photographs of each of

16 those buildings from two different directions, showing exactly the damage,

17 would do the thing. Anything else that was not anything that we planned.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You yourself, with the two Dutch

19 policemen, the interpreter, and Mr. X, did you enter the houses that had

20 been damaged? Did you go inside?

21 A. Yeah, we went inside some of the buildings. Some of the buildings

22 we went just close and took the photographs and then a little bit depended

23 on the terrain, how it was and how many bushes there were around and how

24 accessible the house was.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in the buildings that you

Page 9399

1 entered, which were perhaps completely open, there was perhaps no door or

2 it wasn't possible to shut it, did you discover houses that had been

3 completely emptied, or were there in these houses clothes, items, pieces

4 of furniture, televisions, fridges, or when entering these buildings, did

5 you see that they were completely empty? What could you see upon entering

6 such buildings?

7 A. Basically all the houses were, 99 per cent sure I would say, they

8 were totally empty or just some ruins, broken furniture or some window

9 frames or whatever. Just rubbish, nothing valuable left. Because most of

10 the -- in many cases, after the village was taken over by the BH army,

11 also some sort of looting took place in most of the times, and then all

12 the valuables have been removed as soon as possible from the houses. So

13 there was nothing valuable left. And we discussed -- we discussed also

14 about them possibly taking photographs from inside the houses, but

15 before --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But why do you say that it was

17 the BH army that had taken everything and that had engaged in looting?

18 You said so spontaneously. But what are the grounds for your claim?

19 A. I never said that the BiH army looted the houses. I said that the

20 villages and houses were looted after the BiH army took over them. I

21 didn't say that the army looted the houses. Of course there are also

22 civilians involved in these kind of issues, but I never said that the BiH

23 army did that.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

Page 9400

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Unless there's an error in the

3 transcript, you spontaneously said that it was the BH army. Now you are

4 telling us something else. So I take note of that.

5 You say that there was nothing left in these houses. Was there

6 nothing left because fire had destroyed everything or because everything

7 had been taken out, or items of value had been taken out in an organised

8 manner, or was the scene such that one could assume that the fact that

9 houses were empty was the result of destruction? What would your

10 conclusion be on the basis of what you could see at these relevant sites?

11 A. It's difficult to say what caused the damage and how the items

12 were broken, but just as an example to show you that the looting didn't

13 only happen right after the attack. I remember visiting Miletici,

14 probably in 2000 for the first time, and I specifically remember one

15 particular house that we took some photographs, and the following time I

16 went there, the next time I went there was maybe one year later and it

17 looked totally different. So it looks like, you know, that even nowadays,

18 whatever might be left there, people are still going around and trying to

19 find something and taking stuff out of the buildings, whatever might be

20 left. So it's really difficult to say what happened and how they happened

21 and who did it, other than those persons who were present in the villages

22 at the time of the attack or right after that.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you can remember, the

24 houses that were destroyed, did the destruction start from below or from

25 above? As a policeman, what would you say about the origin of the

Page 9401

1 destruction? And another question: When you entered the houses, did you

2 see traces of fire, given your expert eye, in police terms, were you able

3 to observe certain things? A policeman would usually observe certain

4 things if he entered a house that was destroyed. So what sort of

5 conclusions did you draw upon entering these houses as a policeman?

6 A. Like I earlier mentioned, there were 631 destroyed buildings that

7 we recorded, and I would say that, you know, pretty much all of those

8 houses, they were their own cases. There were some of the buildings with

9 only the -- some couple of stones left and some of the houses which had,

10 you know, there was a roof missing, or there was one wall missing that had

11 been hammered down, or it has been burnt. You can see that it has been on

12 fire inside the whole building. The roof has collapsed, if it has not

13 burned. It's difficult to say whether it started from below or high,

14 because each of those buildings, they are their own cases, and there's no

15 kind of, you know, kind of like a typical case. They were all more or

16 less destroyed in different ways.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A minute ago you said that your

18 instructions were not to concern yourself with buildings in which there

19 were only light traces of bullets. The buildings that had been destroyed,

20 did they have any holes in the walls caused by bullets? Did they give you

21 the impression that machine-guns had opened fire on these houses? And did

22 you notice any cartridges or bullets that remained there? The sort of

23 things that an ordinary policeman would notice? Did you notice that the

24 fire had been opened on any of these buildings?

25 A. Yeah. Definitely there were some houses which had bullet holes

Page 9402

1 and had been destroyed, but also there were buildings which didn't carry

2 any visible bullet holes. And when you asked about the cartridges and

3 bullets, you have to keep in mind that it's almost ten years at the time

4 and the nature has kind of taken over. There's grass growing everywhere.

5 But still there are some cartridges found from the buildings, or nearby.

6 But I think that's pretty much the case in all over Bosnia.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you entered these houses in

8 large settlements where there were inhabitants, did some people come to

9 you spontaneously to talk to you, to ask you what you were doing there?

10 Was there ever such a situation, or did no one ever come to see you?

11 Because you said that you yourself never went to see people, but did the

12 people come to see and speak to you?

13 A. Yes. There were some people who approached me. They approached

14 this contact person because I think he's a really well-known person in

15 that area, and like I mentioned earlier, that he had been going around

16 there. So the villagers knew exactly what he was after and he had told

17 that the following month he will come with the OTP personnel to record the

18 damage to the villages, and some people were just curious to see that, you

19 know, what we were doing, and then they had been refugees and returned to

20 the village. But like I said earlier, I didn't start taking any notes

21 from them because this contact person had already kind of like identified

22 potential witnesses to testify about them and the plan was to take the

23 statements during the following mission that we had been planning for

24 June.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The people who came to see --

Page 9403

1 did they give you the impression of being victims, of being vindictive, of

2 wanting information on the future indemnities that they might receive?

3 What sort of impression did they leave you and speak to Mr. X or your

4 interpreter? Is there anything that you noticed on such occasions?

5 A. Well, I can't remember anything special regarding that matter.

6 Most of the time they were just offering us coffee or tea and, you know,

7 chatting about everything possible, and probably also touching the events,

8 what happened there and what was the -- most of the time they wanted to

9 tell their own story and they escaped and what their family is doing and

10 children doing and this kind of thing. It's more like a social

11 conversation most of the time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You spoke to them, since you say

13 that while having coffee they would talk to you and tell you their

14 personal background. So on that occasion, did they tell you that they

15 were there in 1993 and when X, Y, or Z arrived, they were there? Did they

16 give you any specific details about what had happened at the time?

17 A. Not that I remember.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you took over

19 2.000 photographs of the houses. I have to say that we don't have these

20 photographs. Wasn't it possible to put these photographs into binders

21 with references, with the name of the owner of the house, the date when

22 the house was built? I believe that all this is contained on a CD-ROM,

23 but there are no photos, no files that were made, which is what is done in

24 your country and in all countries throughout the world.

25 A. Yes. At a certain stage we discussed about the issue of these

Page 9404

1 ground photographs that were taken from the destroyed houses, and at some

2 higher level a decision was made that we will not -- we would just keep

3 them as CD-ROMs, and if needed, they will be used after some later stage.

4 But the main purpose was to kind of present the damage to the villages

5 through the aerial photographs, and we were kind of, you know,

6 concentrating on preparing them. And one thing was that I was just about

7 to leave the Tribunal before we get them finished, and I don't really know

8 what's the story of the other photographs after I left the Tribunal in

9 September 2002.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A while ago the Prosecution

11 showed you photographs of these places using Sanction. We have all noted

12 that you had blue or red markers for houses, and there were numbers. We

13 noticed that at times there were houses that had been destroyed. And

14 there were also houses in a perfect condition. And then next to these

15 houses, a house in good condition.

16 When looking at the photograph, we have the impression that the

17 destruction wasn't systematic, that a selection may have been made when

18 these buildings were destroyed. You, who were at the site, what did

19 you -- what conclusion did you draw when you saw that certain houses had

20 not been destroyed? Are there any explanations you could provide us with

21 on the basis of what you were personally able to observe there?

22 A. This is also an issue that I was thinking about, that how come,

23 you know, some houses were left intact, while the others in surrounding

24 area, they were all destroyed. And I don't have any straight answers. I

25 was just thinking about that maybe there were some -- even though the

Page 9405

1 owner of the house was a Croat, he probably was a certain kind of, you

2 know, person that the people who attacked the village probably knew and

3 didn't want to destroy, for reason or other. I don't know exactly what

4 was that, what was the reason for that. But I've been thinking about the

5 same as well, what was the criteria for selecting the houses, which were

6 destroyed and which were left. I don't have any clear answer to that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Having been at the site and on

8 the basis of what you observed as a policeman, the destruction such as

9 depicted in the photographs, is this destruction -- could happen at a

10 given time, in a brief time, or is it necessary to have a number of days

11 or a number of weeks to commit such destruction? As a policeman, what

12 would your comments be as far as the time it took to have destruction of

13 such an extent? As an expert, do you have a point of view about the

14 amount of time that was required in order to destroy these houses?

15 A. Again you're asking something which is really difficult to say.

16 It depends on the number of troops which are attacking the village, how

17 many soldiers there are or whatever persons they are who attack and make

18 the destruction. It can be done -- it can be done pretty quickly as well.

19 There are some witnesses who said that there were many, many houses burned

20 during the same night; for example, in Guca Gora, four, five, if I

21 remember correctly. And also other damage has been done to the houses.

22 So it's really difficult to say.

23 Of course, when you talk about some small village, it's much

24 easier and quicker to do the job compared to some larger areas like

25 Grahovcici or Cukle. But of course when you talk about bigger villages, I

Page 9406

1 would guess that there would also be a bigger number of soldiers attacking

2 those villages. So it's like a line drawn to the water.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, as a policeman, you are

4 making a link between the extent of destruction and the number of houses

5 and the number of troops that may have destroyed the houses. So you're

6 establishing a link between these elements, these factors. You are saying

7 that in a small village, in which there are two or three houses, only one

8 person could destroy them, but in a large settlement, where there were

9 tens of houses, just one person couldn't destroy them. This would have to

10 be done by a number of troops. This is what you are telling us as an

11 investigator?

12 A. Yeah, basically. Something like that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now move on

14 to another subject that isn't directly linked to the subject of

15 destruction but has to do with your role as an investigator.

16 Yesterday, when examining a witness, we realised that your name

17 was mentioned in archives -- in archival material that was provided to the

18 Prosecution, when the Prosecution went to the archives in Sarajevo. They

19 went to the -- to visit the archives of the BH army. Do you remember

20 having been present during this stage when documents were being collected?

21 Do you remember this?

22 A. Yeah. I have taken part in such kind of mission, but I'm not able

23 to even recall which year it was. Probably 2001 or 2000. I'm not exactly

24 sure.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are confirming that you

Page 9407

1 went to the office where there were military documents, to the department

2 where military documents were kept, and on that occasion you took

3 originals or copies? Do you remember this?

4 A. I worked in one or two archives in Bosnia, and we took the

5 originals with us, after we had located them from the binders or from the

6 shelves. We took the originals, yeah.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my question overlaps, or the

8 questions I asked you a minute ago. As far as the archives are concerned,

9 did you have from the OTP any guidelines concerning the nature of the

10 documents you were to take, any guidelines concerning the criteria of

11 reliability for these documents, or did you just go to the archives and

12 take whatever you got hold of? Had all of this been prepared in a

13 scientific and professional manner, or were you told: Go to the archives

14 and see what might be of interest. Take what you think might be of

15 interest. Could you provide us with any clarifications?

16 A. Well, when we went to the archives, there was a clear kind of,

17 you know, areas and time frames and certain units and certain persons that

18 we were interested in, and we had prepared a list - I think was it one or

19 two pages - of all the keywords and key incidents that we were interested

20 in, in our investigations. So the instructions were that whenever we

21 found anything which might be interesting or be linked to any of these

22 incidents or persons, that we have been listed, there has been the

23 priorities, we took that, if it was -- if it had some relevance, according

24 to our first evaluation. So it wasn't just going there and taking

25 everything out and leaving. No, not at all.

Page 9408

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as you didn't know the B/C/S

2 language, and as these documents were in that language, how could you, on

3 the basis of keywords, make a selection between interesting and less

4 interesting documents? Who assisted you in reading the documents?

5 Because a document consisting of a number of pages, it takes a few minutes

6 to read it. So how did you proceed exactly?

7 A. So you were right when you said that it really time-consuming task

8 and we had -- I don't remember exactly investigators and analysts we had

9 on that particular mission, but we had many of them and we had many

10 language assistants. So we were working in pairs. Each investigator had

11 their own interpreter, and they had been allocated certain area or certain

12 shelves of the archive, which they went systematically, binder after

13 binder, and they picked up all the relevant documents. Or if it turned

14 out to be that, for example, a certain binder, that almost all of it

15 seemed to be relevant, we took the whole binder, without reading every

16 single document, that they were relevant, just to save time. And then the

17 evidence was logged in the logbook, or log sheet, with all the details,

18 describing the person who located it, from which archive it was, which

19 archive room of a certain archive, which shelf, and if it was taken out of

20 the binder, also the binder was mentioned, what's written in the spine of

21 the binder, and these kind of details.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood this

23 correctly, you were in the room, there were shelves, a binder, you had

24 keywords, you knew that certain things might be of interest, you'd open

25 the binder containing the documents. Did you or the interpreter or the

Page 9409

1 assistant who knew B/C/S read the document? Did you read the document or

2 did your assistant do this?

3 A. The assistant, the interpreter or the language assistant, read the

4 statement or whatever the document was. She had a kind of rough look what

5 it contained and gave me a brief description what it contained. And then

6 I made the decision whether that had some relevance or not. If it had, we

7 took it; if not, we just went to the following document.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And before this operation, did

9 you say, "We should look into documents called such-and-such, having such

10 an ID number of the unit," and so on? Did you have some kind of a system

11 of reading through these documents so that you could target the ones you

12 were interested in?

13 A. Yes. Like I said earlier, that we were allocated certain shelves

14 or parts of the archive, and most of the time the archive consisted -- it

15 was built so that there were, for example, unit -- let's say 305, 306

16 Brigade. There was all the binders of that particular brigade were next

17 to each other and in a kind of way that they were in a chronological

18 order, starting from 1992, 1993, 1994, and so on. So we were able to go

19 immediately to the certain binder that was of interest to us, and that's

20 the way we proceeded.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the local archivists, they

22 collaborated with you fully, you had no problems with them regarding the

23 reading of those documents and the taking of those documents? You never

24 had any problems with them?

25 A. As far as I can recall, we never had any problems. And at the end

Page 9410

1 of each day, in the evening, we printed out the log sheet where we had

2 listed all the documents and binders that we have taken. So we printed it

3 out and get him to sign it. We left him a copy of the material that we

4 have seized and one copy for ourself, one for the archivist, then we

5 transported all the material after they were sealed and numbered and

6 logged into the log sheet, we transported to the Sarajevo field office in

7 a secured office room where they were kept until they were transported to

8 The Hague.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 12.30. We have to have

10 the break now, and we will resume at about five to 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I have

14 no other questions for you, but another Judge will have a few questions

15 for the witness.

16 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness.

17 A. Good morning.

18 JUDGE SWART: These are very small questions, but we had to make a

19 break. So I'm going to put them now.

20 The first question is the following: You explained your

21 instructions to the Witness ZI in interviewing inhabitants of these

22 villages where there have been destructions, and you said to him, if I

23 understood you well: For each place, you specified the time period. For

24 instance, for Dusina, you said January. For Miletici, you said April.

25 For Guca Gora, June, et cetera. So for each specific village, you had a

Page 9411

1 specific time frame. And if I remember well, these were always time

2 frames of a month.

3 A. Yes. It was the actual month when the village was attacked,

4 whether it was in the --

5 JUDGE SWART: The months in which the village was attacked.

6 A. Yeah. Whether it was in the beginning or end, it didn't matter.

7 Just the calendar month.

8 JUDGE SWART: Because there is a variation in that. In some

9 situations the attack was at the end of the month, and in some situations

10 it was rather at the beginning of the month.

11 A. Yes, exactly what I said. So that was the decision made by the

12 senior trial attorney and that's how we proceeded.

13 JUDGE SWART: But my question is: Why did you select a time

14 period of a month? Why not a different yardstick? What were your

15 considerations in doing it?

16 A. I'm probably not the right person to answer for this. And there

17 were certain discussions about what would be the simplest way and how we

18 would do it, but anyway the decision made by him was that. It's the

19 calendar month of the actual attack on each village.

20 JUDGE SWART: I didn't quite hear you. But someone in the OTP

21 made the decision I understand.

22 A. Yeah. It was the senior trial attorney, Ekkehard Withopf, who

23 made the decision.

24 JUDGE SWART: He made the decision?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9412

1 JUDGE SWART: Okay, I understand.

2 A. It was before the mission, when we started to plan how we're going

3 to proceed with this mission and how we're going to conduct it.

4 JUDGE SWART: Have you had a discussion on that? If you don't

5 want to answer this question, you don't have to, but have there been any

6 discussions on yardsticks for selecting a period? Because you could

7 imagine other periods, or other matters of selecting a period.

8 A. Yeah. I'm not in a position to remember exactly what was the

9 discussions and what were the reasons for him for selecting this -- the

10 way he selected. It's just the way he announced that it should be taken

11 and that's how I passed on the information to our contact person.

12 JUDGE SWART: Okay. Then I'll put you no further questions on

13 this issue.

14 You said that you had also made pictures of individual houses and

15 barns and other buildings, on average two for each building. Isn't that

16 true?

17 A. Yeah. Each of the actual buildings, they were photographed from

18 both sides so that we could see the whole building from both sides, from

19 south and north, or east and west. And most of the outbuildings, we only

20 took one. But for all the actual buildings, it was two for each.

21 JUDGE SWART: And they are on CD-ROM?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE SWART: We have to look at them. The Prosecutor wants us to

24 admit these CD-ROMs, but we haven't yet any -- had any possibility of

25 looking at them.

Page 9413

1 But let me just ask you: These pictures on CD-ROM of individual

2 houses, have you indicated for each individual house also the owner or the

3 former owner of the place or whatever?

4 A. Yeah. We kept a log sheet, so each house has been numbered and we

5 know exactly what time, which date the photo was taken, who took the

6 photo, who is the owner of the house, from which direction it was taken.

7 All this is logged and we have the binder with all the log sheets, and

8 they are submitted as evidence to the system here.

9 JUDGE SWART: So they are easy to consult in that respect?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE SWART: Okay. My final question is more a question for the

12 record, because there has been a discussion on the matter in March.

13 Because the question has been raised in March, I raise it again here, and

14 it's very easy for you to answer the question, I think.

15 On the pictures you took, you have these signs in blue and red,

16 red being houses, blue being other buildings. Say, for instance, you have

17 12 in red, that's a house, and 12 in blue, that's a barn belonging to the

18 house. Now, in your sketches, you have obviously no blue and red, but you

19 have different distinctions. You have, for instance, 12 and 12A. This is

20 the same thing, the same revision, I understand?

21 A. Yeah, exactly. That was the way --

22 JUDGE SWART: Just for the record to make it absolutely clear that

23 there's no difference between the documents in this respect.

24 A. Uh-huh, yeah.

25 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

Page 9414

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will go now to Defence counsel

2 for questions that they may have following the questions of the Judges.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

5 Q. [In English] Good day once again, Mr. Tauru. We have a few

6 questions for you arising from the questions put to you by the Judges.

7 The first question which I'd like to confirm with you is that the

8 pictures that you took were taken in April of 2002, and you can confirm,

9 of course, that they represent the situation of destruction in 2002?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You can also confirm that the investigation in this case began as

12 early as 1999?

13 A. Yes. It had started a while before I arrived in September 1999,

14 as far as I can recall.

15 Q. And you can also confirm that the relationship between the Office

16 of the Prosecution and Witness ZI began with the same time as this

17 investigation began?

18 A. That I don't know, because I wasn't here when the investigation

19 started.

20 Q. But can you confirm that this Witness ZI has been a contact of the

21 Office of the Prosecution for the complete period during which you were an

22 investigator with the Tribunal?

23 A. As far as I recall, in the beginning when I joined the Tribunal,

24 in the beginning there was actually another person officially. But as far

25 as I understand, the actual job was anyway done by the ZI, or whatever

Page 9415

1 the --

2 Q. This Witness ZI?

3 A. Yeah. But later on he, like, became the official contact person.

4 Q. And can you confirm, Mr. Tauru, that Witness ZI worked on only one

5 type of crime or one type of alleged crime, and that is, crimes committed

6 by Bosnian Muslims on Bosnian Croats?

7 A. No. As far as I know, he also assisted some other teams with

8 regard to crimes committed by the Serbs. But I'm not actually absolutely

9 sure, but that's the picture in my mind.

10 Q. Against Bosnian Croats as victims?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to go

13 into private session, please.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, can

15 we go into private session, please.

16 [Private session]

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 9416

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. BOURGON: You had drawn up the sketches and that your source

20 of information for the sketches and then of course to put the information

21 on those pictures was Witness ZI; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we have to go

24 back into private session because one of the answers of the witness

25 appeared during the open session. So we'll go back into private session.

Page 9417

1 [Private session]

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you may continue.

17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. [In English] So we were -- you just confirmed that your source of

19 information was Witness ZI. Now, can you confirm that you don't know who

20 Witness ZI contacted to gather this information which became your source

21 of information?

22 A. I know some names that he contacted.

23 Q. You know some of the names, but there are many that you don't

24 know. Would that be a fair statement?

25 A. Oh, yes. Yes.

Page 9418

1 Q. And those that you do know, you would not be surprised to know

2 that they have appeared as witnesses before this Trial Chamber?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, the people, whether you know them or you don't know them, and

5 you just mentioned that most of them you don't know, can you confirm that

6 you do not know where these people were in the particular month that you

7 were looking for in 1993?

8 A. I don't know about that.

9 Q. And you are not in a position to confirm whether these people,

10 these subsources or third-hand sources, were eyewitnesses or not to the

11 information that was provided to you?

12 A. I don't know that.

13 Q. And would it be a fair assumption to say that because this was the

14 war and that many people were fleeing their villages before the damage

15 often took place, would it be a fair statement to say that there's a very

16 likelihood that these people were not eyewitnesses to the damage that you

17 were looking for?

18 A. I'm not able to -- I don't want to speculate on that. But what I

19 want to say, that some of the witnesses who gathered the information from

20 the villages had been then later on interviewed by the OTP investigators.

21 Q. And as I've said earlier, these witnesses have come to tell their

22 stories before this Trial Chamber?

23 A. Uh-huh.

24 Q. Now, based on your experience, Mr. Tauru, I'd like to confirm that

25 you are aware that some people used to burn their own property before

Page 9419

1 leaving their villages in order to deprive the use of their buildings to

2 whoever was taking their villages over. Are you aware of this fact, based

3 on your 25 investigation missions in the former Yugoslavia?

4 A. As far as I can recall, no other witness that I took a statement

5 from mentioned anything like this.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, just to quickly -- you mentioned that when you

7 visited some of these villages along with Witness ZI you mentioned that

8 you had coffee with some people and that these people were Croats who had

9 returned. Is that correct?

10 A. Yeah, probably once, if I can recall, once or twice.

11 Q. And you also mentioned that these people knew very well

12 Witness ZI. And they knew what he was looking for?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If I move on to a different topic, and that is the village of

15 Miletici. Because you mentioned something that was of particular

16 interest. You mentioned that you saw a house in the year 2000, and then

17 when you later were in the same village in 2002, this village looked

18 totally different. Is that what you said?

19 A. Yeah. I don't know whether I mentioned these particular years,

20 but anyway, there was about a year between the visits, and that particular

21 house looked pretty much different from inside. So my idea kind of, you

22 know, what I learned about this was that there's some kind of looting

23 still going on or people are taking building material from those partly

24 destroyed houses for their own purposes and some walls had been damaged

25 there and kind of upper roof was taken out. And if I didn't know that I

Page 9420

1 was in that particular part or house, I wouldn't have recognised it was

2 the same one.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, in the indictment against General

4 Hadzihasanovic, there is one particular incident which took place in

5 Miletici on the 25th of April, 1993. Now, the Defence position with

6 respect to this incident is quite clear, is that whoever was there was not

7 a member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But what is more

8 important is that witnesses who have appeared before this Trial Chamber

9 have said that on this particular occasion, there was no damage whatsoever

10 done to any of the houses. Now, if those witnesses are right in what they

11 said before the Trial Chamber, under oath, of course, would it be a fair

12 statement to say that the houses shown on your sketch as being destroyed,

13 and I counted 12 of those, would have been destroyed at a different time

14 frame?

15 A. Well, if the witnesses say so, according to the source that our

16 contact person was able to locate and according to information he got from

17 this person - I think it was a female - there was damage done to the

18 village right after the village was attacked and taken over by the Muslim

19 forces.

20 Q. Now, the -- talking about the issue of destruction in general,

21 which was covered by the Presiding Judge, can you confirm that most houses

22 in Bosnia, most houses which are damaged, have indeed bullet holes and

23 that there are very few houses who do not have bullet holes in them? And

24 you've been there many times.

25 A. Well, I'm not really able to say if most of the houses have and

Page 9421

1 most of them don't have. It depends a little bit on the area and what has

2 happened in the area and whether there have been really actual fighting

3 going on or just destruction after some villages have been taken over,

4 whether there was any resistance or not. So it really depends on the

5 area.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, can you confirm that when we talk about

7 destruction of houses and, as a general, you have made -- you have visited

8 the former Yugoslavia on 20 to 25 occasions. Can you confirm that when

9 you were there in 2002, destruction is to be found everywhere in the

10 former Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yeah, pretty much so. Some area has been rebuilt, but there's

12 still pretty much to be done.

13 Q. And can you confirm, Witness, that the war in Central Bosnia, are

14 you aware that this war lasted from 1992 to 1995, which is actually over a

15 three-year period?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And can you confirm that throughout this period, there was a

18 confrontation line, actually -- there were two confrontation lines; one

19 between the Serb and the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and one between

20 the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that these lines were

21 there throughout the war, and of course they changed places wherever they

22 would be close to some villages or not. Is that correct?

23 A. Yeah, pretty much.

24 Q. Now, with respect to the issue of destruction again which was

25 raised by the Presiding Judge, you mentioned that the kind of destruction

Page 9422

1 that you witnessed as an investigator would have to be done either by many

2 people in a short time; is that correct?

3 A. Well, there are many possibilities. I just gave an example how it

4 might happen. You know, one person can cause a lot of damage if he wants

5 to do in one hour, setting 50 houses on fire, if needed.

6 Q. So another possibility is less people over a longer period?

7 A. Less people, if they are active enough, in a short period as well.

8 Q. And ten years later, it would be impossible to tell which of these

9 options would take place, would have taken place?

10 A. Well, it's quite difficult.

11 Q. For both you and I, this would be pure speculation, would it be?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when we say groups, like many, small groups, big groups, that

14 could be any group. Would you agree?

15 A. Group of soldiers, group of civilians, depending on --

16 Q. Group of bandits?

17 A. For example.

18 Q. Group of Mujahedin?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, in your sketches, in your testimony, you mentioned that there

21 were 631 houses which had been destroyed, that you counted in your

22 sketches. Now, I myself counted only 445. Are you sure about this figure

23 that you are mentioning today?

24 A. That figure is mentioned in the mission report that I prepared

25 after the mission. There was something like 391 -- 391 buildings and 240

Page 9423

1 outbuildings, as far as I can recall now from the mission report I made.

2 Q. Now, if I count on these sketches admitted before this Trial

3 Chamber, or at least that admission is being requested, I counted 393,

4 that is, excluding Dusina, because the Prosecution has acknowledged the

5 fact that there was no destruction charges any more for Dusina, and also

6 Buhine Kuce, because that is a charge that is no longer relevant to this

7 indictment. And I counted 393. Would that be a possibility, or in any

8 event would the sketches reveal the right number?

9 A. Yeah. I'm not really able to comment on that.

10 Q. Now, a quick question on the looting. This is an issue that was

11 also raised by the Presiding Judge. Can you confirm that on the basis of

12 your experience -- now, when I talk about experience, I talk about your 20

13 to 25 trips in the region, but I also talk to your conversations with

14 fellow investigators and with witnesses. Can you confirm that the looting

15 in the former Yugoslavia basically had a pattern, where initially there

16 was looting, whether it be by soldiers, civilians, criminals, of small

17 items; a few days later, medium items; and then eventually the looting

18 actually took the form of stealing windows, doors, roof tiles, pipes,

19 where, in fact, at the end of the looting, after weeks and months and

20 years, there was actually nothing left in these houses? Is that a pattern

21 that you discussed and you were able to notice based on your experience?

22 A. Well, there are cases like that. I'm definitely sure about that.

23 But also I remember interviewing some witnesses who said that, you know,

24 they started to carry those TV sets and VCRs right after the village was

25 taken over. So it's also a question of case by case.

Page 9424

1 Q. A case-by-case situation?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Everything could have taken place. But the scenario I mentioned

4 to you is a pattern that you have discussed and that you are aware of in

5 some parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

6 A. Well, I have heard about this kind of pattern being mentioned and

7 probably at least one of the witnesses that I interviewed mentioned this

8 very pattern.

9 Q. I move on to a question which was put to you by another one of the

10 Honourable Judges of this Trial Chamber, and you confirmed that the idea

11 of taking a time frame of a month, that was a decision which was made by a

12 higher level within the Office of the Prosecution?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, can you confirm that within the Office of the Prosecution,

15 that there have been times when you were there that lawyers were leading

16 investigations, that there have been times at some places investigators

17 have been leading investigations, and that when you were there, you can

18 confirm that this has been an ongoing source of confusion and of

19 discontent within the Office of the Prosecution during the time that you

20 were there?

21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President --

22 A. No.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: With all due respect, I really fail to see

24 how this arises out of the Judges' questions, with all due respect.

25 A. Anyway, my answer would be no.

Page 9425

1 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I think you had better let the President

2 rule, please.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon. Could you

4 rephrase the question, because that type of question was not put to him.

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will

6 simply withdraw that question.

7 Q. [In English] Witness, one last question I have for you today, and

8 that is: The fact that -- well, actually, I have two questions. One is

9 we mentioned something about the CD-ROMs having pictures of houses.

10 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

11 Q. And you mentioned that somewhere there was some information about

12 owners and dates. Now, all this information, of course, again, is the

13 result of your source, which is Witness ZI?

14 A. Yes. But when we actually took the photographs, this ZI witness

15 was not around. But it was based on, of course, on his information that

16 he gave me, and the information which is now in the log sheets of those

17 photographs. That's from my sketches. So actually he's anyway the

18 original source of the names and buildings.

19 Q. My final question to you, Mr. Tauru, is that: You can confirm, of

20 course, that this mission in April of 2002 actually took place after the

21 initial appearance in the beginning of the proceedings, the pre-trial

22 proceedings, against General Hadzihasanovic?

23 A. I don't remember the dates, but that's possible, if you say so.

24 Q. Now, can you confirm that as an investigator and member of an

25 investigation team and involved in a specific case that it is the position

Page 9426

1 of the Office of the Prosecution that when an accused is brought in for

2 his Initial Appearance, they are actually trial ready and they have all

3 the witnesses they need to take the case forward?

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, no. Please. Mr. President, please. I

5 think it's unfair to ask this witness this question. This witness is an

6 investigator.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Regarding this type of

8 question, we can't really see how the witness can provide an answer,

9 because he wasn't the person who was providing the guidelines. He was

10 executing instructions. But perhaps you could rephrase your question from

11 another stand points. But Madam Benjamin is quite right.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will

13 rephrase my question.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the month and what you were --

15 A. Sorry. I missed the beginning.

16 Q. Sorry.

17 A. The translation when you started to talk. So ask again, please.

18 Q. I apologise. I will simply say my question in another form. Can

19 you confirm that when those decisions were made and those decisions were

20 communicated to you in terms of what you would be looking for and how you

21 were to proceed on your mission, first, can you confirm that this took

22 place after the Initial Appearance of the accused?

23 A. I'm not sure when was the Initial Appearance of the accused, but

24 it must have been before, so --

25 Q. If I tell you that the Initial Appearance of the accused took

Page 9427

1 place in August of 2001 --

2 A. Yeah, that's right. So it was after that.

3 Q. Now, my last question is simply: Usually when investigation teams

4 proceed to do further work after a case has begun, it is to confirm and to

5 strengthen their case, not to build a case; is that right?

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Well, well, well, well. I mean,

7 Mr. President, my friend -- I think he knows better than that. Certainly

8 this witness has no responsibility for the conduct of this case, and he

9 knows that. So I don't understand why he insists on trying to get certain

10 answers from this witness. This is not the witness. This is not the

11 person.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

13 Defence is only trying to demonstrate that in April 2002, the Prosecutor

14 still didn't have a file, in spite of the fact that the accused had

15 already been -- had already appeared and had already been indicted. But I

16 withdraw my question.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll turn to the other Defence

18 team. Perhaps they have some questions for this witness. Mr. Dixon.

19 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. We don't have any further

20 questions for the witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Dixon.

22 Ms. Benjamin, now that the Defence has concluded its examination,

23 is there anything else you would like to clarify with the witness, or do

24 you have no further questions?

25 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

Page 9428

1 questions. Thanks.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Mr. Tauru, this concludes your testimony here. We would like to

4 thank you for having come to testify here at the request of the

5 Prosecution. You have answered all the questions put to you by the

6 Prosecution, Defence, and the Judges that concerned your mission and

7 investigation during the relevant time period. Thank you. And on behalf

8 of the Judges, I wish you all the best in your difficult career as a

9 police officer. And we wish you all the best in your new position, after

10 having spent over three years working for the OTP. You now have a new

11 job, and as I said, we wish you all the best in your new career. Thank

12 you. And I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is almost time to adjourn,

16 but there was an issue we had to deal with that concerned the documents

17 under seal. We'll go into private session, Mr. Registrar.

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 9429

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

8 Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 We have a few minutes left. Are there any comments to be made?

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With your

12 leave, Mr. President, I would like to go back to the issue of the

13 interviews taking place in Sarajevo at the moment, because I believe that

14 some confusion remains with regard to how this is proceeding.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You want to provide us with

16 additional information or would you like the Prosecution to provide you

17 with information?

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I would like to provide the Trial

19 Chamber with information to clarify the situation, which remains, in my

20 opinion, Mr. President, ambiguous.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are listening to you.

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 The Trial Chamber rendered an order requesting that the

24 Prosecution call a witness who would testify about the drafting, the

25 signing, and the forwarding of orders within the 3rd Corps. Having

Page 9430

1 carried out a number of searches and a request of the assistance of the BH

2 government, the only possible result was for the Prosecution to identify

3 two Defence witnesses.

4 Mr. President, these are witnesses -- these are two witnesses who

5 have already been seen by the Defence, and they have agreed to testify

6 about events for the Defence in the course of the Defence's case.

7 Naturally, the Defence raise this issue before the Trial Chamber in order

8 to avoid any problems or difficulties in relation to this subject.

9 Mr. President and the Trial Chamber ruled and said that this was not a

10 problem, as a witness is first and above all a witness in the interests of

11 justice. The parties are in agreement. Nevertheless, the Prosecution,

12 who is concerned about the rights of the accused, invited the Defence to

13 attend the interviews with these witnesses who had already agreed to

14 testify here.

15 Mr. President, attending at -- being present at these interviews

16 was important for a number of reasons. Firstly, in order to defend the

17 accused's rights and to be aware of the contents of the discussion, and

18 also for the well-being of the witnesses who might easily be confused,

19 since they agreed to testify for the Defence and all of a sudden they're

20 requested to go to the OTP office in Sarajevo for an interview in front of

21 cameras. And the witnesses might have difficulty in understanding this.

22 And thirdly, Mr. President, since we wanted someone to be present,

23 someone familiar with the situation that was going to be discussed at the

24 interviews, and these concerned questions of the authenticity of documents

25 and how orders were drafted and forwarded in the 3rd Corps. And thirdly,

Page 9431

1 Mr. President, as we always want to be fully prepared for hearings, we

2 would like a person attending the interview to be present when these

3 witnesses testify.

4 As far as the schedule of the Prosecution is concerned, this week

5 is isn't possible for my colleague and myself to be present in Sarajevo

6 because the witness schedule for Wednesday, today's witness, and Friday's

7 witnesses, witnesses for which it was necessary to make lengthy

8 preparations, and we had already decided that I would examine these

9 witnesses, whereas my colleague will be examining witnesses on Tuesday,

10 Thursday, and Monday. And as far as I'm concerned, I had to deal with the

11 issue of documents on Monday, at the beginning of the week.

12 Given our work load, it's our opinion that it wouldn't be

13 practical for my colleague or myself to go to Sarajevo this week. We have

14 someone who is in Sarajevo. You know who this person is, Mr. President.

15 It is Mrs. Mirna Milanovic, who is present here in The Hague from time to

16 time. Nevertheless, Mr. President, although this person is a lawyer, she

17 wasn't involved in the issue of documents, and this person can't be

18 present, won't be able to be present when this witness is heard, if the

19 witness is heard.

20 As a result, we contacted the Registry last Wednesday to inform of

21 a possible solution. To help, our legal assistant, Mr. Alexis Demirdjian,

22 he could be prepared to help with the documents, and he could be present

23 in Sarajevo and deal with all the problems.

24 The Registry told us that this was a reasonable alternative and

25 that this request would be accepted. That was on Wednesday. On Friday,

Page 9432

1 Mr. President, we provided the necessary papers. The request for travel

2 had been given to the Registry's travel department and reservations were

3 made so that Mr. Demirdjian could travel to Sarajevo on Monday. On Friday

4 afternoon, Mr. President, my colleague and myself spent the entire

5 afternoon with the representatives from the Registry who had the

6 responsibility to make such decisions. The deputy chief of the OLAD

7 section, one of his colleagues, were present. We spent the entire

8 afternoon with them and we were then present at a reception, and we met

9 the Registrar, the Deputy Registrar, and these two persons. At no time in

10 the course of that day, Mr. President, were we informed that a change had

11 been made and that the request that we were making on Wednesday, which had

12 been orally approved, we weren't informed that the reaction to the request

13 was being amended. It was only on Friday, very late, that I learned that

14 Mr. Alexis Demirdjian had been informed that his request had only been

15 partially approved and that he had to pay for his own expenses when going

16 to Sarajevo if he was to represent us there.

17 So that was the weekend, Mr. President. We are faced with a

18 fait accompli. We immediately wrote a letter to the person responsible in

19 the Registry. We sent an email to the person responsible in the Registry,

20 and we sent an email to the legal officer of the Chamber, as well as to

21 the Prosecution. We sent the Prosecution an email which was received by

22 Mr. Mundis, who immediately responded, saying that he understood the

23 situation and that he understood that it was possible that this question,

24 this issue could result in a delay with regard to the interviews, because

25 we couldn't have our legal assistant going to Sarajevo if his expenses

Page 9433

1 weren't covered, which is usually the case for all other representatives

2 of the UN who are going on an official mission.

3 On Monday morning, Mr. President - and I'm almost finished - on

4 Monday morning we were informed that the decision had not been changed

5 because it was the policy of the Registry not to pay for any trips for

6 missions that involved legal assistants.

7 In spite of what we were informed of the previous week, it is our

8 opinion, unless we are mistaken, that there are no written policies with

9 regard to this subject and that this only concerns a decision of an

10 administrative official, and we believe that it is not a reasonable

11 decision. As a result, Mr. President, we had to reserve tickets so that I

12 could personally go to Sarajevo on two occasions this week. And I would

13 like to confirm the fact that the Defence does not like going to Sarajevo

14 and returning - I came back very late. I spent the night preparing for

15 the witness. I'm going back to Sarajevo this afternoon, and I'll be ready

16 for the witness on Friday morning. This is very expensive for the

17 Registry. It is detrimental to the Defence preparations. And we believe,

18 Mr. President, as I said a minute ago, that it is not a reasonable

19 decision.

20 Mr. President, the question raised before you on Monday was not a

21 matter of asking for the Trial Chamber's assistance. We realised that the

22 Trial Chamber's hands are tied as far as budgetary issues are concerned.

23 Nevertheless, the reason for which the legal officer of the Chamber was

24 informed in advance was that perhaps there was the possibility that might

25 be necessary to delay the interviews, to delay the procedure. We wanted

Page 9434

1 to avoid this. The only way of avoiding such a delay was to reserve two

2 tickets so I could go on two return tickets to Sarajevo in the same week.

3 Mr. President, the Trial Chamber ruled on Monday and said

4 something about the necessity of the Defence going to Sarajevo to attend

5 these interviews, so we agreed that the budgetary situation of the

6 Tribunal is not a very agreeable situation to be in. If the Trial Chamber

7 believes that this second trip to Sarajevo, which I'll be going on today,

8 is not necessary, and if the Trial Chamber believes that the expense would

9 be too great, I would not hesitate to cancel this trip. We want to act

10 reasonably when spending public money. And nevertheless, Mr. President,

11 as the Trial Chamber may have noted, we are professionals and we won't

12 accept to be present at a hearing if we aren't completely prepared. We

13 will prepare ourselves so that we can guarantee a full and professional

14 defence for the accused.

15 Mr. President, I wanted to provide you with these clarifications

16 in order to avoid any confusion in relation to this subject, since we

17 believe that we have acted in a reasonable way and that given the

18 circumstances, it is necessary to deal with this issue, to raise this

19 issue with the Registry and underline the fact that we are spending public

20 money for no reason, whereas a simple administrative decision would have

21 allowed a lawyer, a legal assistant, who has been officially assigned to

22 the case to represent us in Sarajevo, and this would not have been

23 detrimental to the case that we are involved in.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bourgon, for your

Page 9435

1 comments. As far as I personally am concerned, I agree with you and you

2 are quite right with regard to everything that you have said. It seems

3 that the problem arose because initially you were given a verbal agreement

4 and last Friday a change was made to this agreement. You were thus placed

5 in a very difficult situation, and naturally this involved costs which

6 were superior to those that would have had to be covered if your assistant

7 had gone there. Additionally, it was very tiring for you, since you had

8 to go on return trips, and your work load is very great. So I can only

9 agree with what you have said.

10 In addition, you said - and you are well aware of this - that the

11 Trial Chamber doesn't have any funds at its disposal. Naturally, if we

12 had such a possibility, in order to ensure that the proceedings ran

13 smoothly and that the accused were well represented, we would have

14 naturally supported the request for your assistant to attend the interview

15 between the witness and the representatives of the Prosecution.

16 But as you have two roles - you're president of the lawyers'

17 association as well - you could in that capacity inform the Registry of

18 the problem, which is a serious problem, a real problem. And naturally,

19 you have my personal support in this procedure. The problem arose

20 because, unfortunately, the witness sought by the Prosecution was a

21 witness that the Defence was going to call. So that's why the problem

22 arose. If the situation had been the reverse, we wouldn't have had this

23 problem. But unfortunately, or fortunately - I'm not quite sure how I'd

24 put it - this was the witness concerned. If we had been informed of this

25 in advance, we could have found another solution. A solution would have

Page 9436

1 been to have this witness as a witness for the Prosecution with regard to

2 this technical issue alone. But you would keep the witness as a Defence

3 witness, to be heard subsequently, and the witness would only have been

4 examined with regard to technical issues. But given the way the situation

5 has developed, unfortunately you are the victim, because you are going to

6 have to leave again, and we will be missing you in the courtroom tomorrow.

7 Are there any other issues to be raised? If not -- Ms. Benjamin,

8 is there anything that you would like to say, in the light of what

9 Mr. Bourgon has just said?

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, Mr. President, except for the fact that

11 the documents, Prosecution 81 to 89, the Prosecution wishes to have same

12 tendered into evidence, please.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These documents have been marked

14 for identification. As far as the request to have these documents into

15 evidence, what would the Defence say? We'll listen to you.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'll be

17 brief.

18 First of all, I'd like to confirm that, as far as I can remember,

19 we hadn't requested that a witness come to authenticate the sketches, but

20 we said that only a factual witness who was present in 1993 could come to

21 authenticate photographs. An investigator couldn't do so. Our main

22 argument, Mr. President, was that the photographs and the sketches in this

23 case are not relevant because they depict a situation in 2002, and that

24 has nothing to do with the situation that prevailed in 1993. And as a

25 result, the sketches and the photographs aren't relevant in this case.

Page 9437

1 Their irrelevance is such that Article 89(C) and (D) should be applicable

2 and the probative value of these sketches is inferior to the prejudice

3 that could be done to the accused. One might be given the impression of a

4 large-scale destruction, whereas we have no idea about when this

5 large-scale destruction may have been caused. I'll stop there,

6 Mr. President. On numerous occasions we have repeated our arguments with

7 regard to the photographs and the sketches.

8 Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is there anything else that the

10 Defence team would like to say.

11 MR. DIXON: No. I wish to repeat what Mr. Bourgon said. That has

12 been our objection all along and we maintain that objection.

13 Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Judges will rule

15 on the matter and we will render our decision with regard to the documents

16 just referred to, 81 and 89. We will inform you whether they will remain

17 marked for identification or whether we will give them final exhibit

18 numbers.

19 We have worked for a few extra minutes. I apologise to the

20 interpreters, and I will see everyone tomorrow at the hearing at 9:00.

21 Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of

24 June, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

25