1 Wednesday, 20 October 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances
10 for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your
12 Honours, Counsel, and to everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Mathias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and our
14 case manager, Mr. Andres Vatter.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
16 Could we have the appearances for the Defence.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President, good
18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina
19 Residovic, Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Mirna Milanovic, our legal
20 assistant. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the
22 appearances for the other Defence team.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On
24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
25 Mulalic, our legal assistant.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber
2 would like to greet everyone present in the courtroom, members of the
3 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else present in
4 the courtroom. The Trial Chamber is very happy to see the model that
5 disappeared for a few weeks. We have it before us again now. And this
6 should facilitate the task of following the witnesses when it's necessary
7 to find the locations of routes, villages, or other sites.
8 We'll now continue with -- we'll now commence with the
9 cross-examination of the witness, unless Defence counsel has anything to
10 say. Yes, you may take the floor.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into
12 private session, please.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.
14 [Private session]
12 Pages 10335 to 10345 – redacted – private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're in open session,
8 I'll address the issue of tendering the documents contained in the binder
9 after the witness has been heard. You have numbered them. The first one
10 is 511, the second one 603 and so on. For reasons that have to do with
11 copying documents, the Registrar would like to all the numbers of the
12 original - 511, 603, et cetera - all these numbers marked for
13 identification. On the first list we would have a number for the
14 document marked for identification. And after the witness has been
15 heard, you can -- after the witness has identified the documents, we
16 could then give these exhibits definitive numbers. They would no longer
17 be marked for identification. Is this in any way problematic for you?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That would make
19 matters easier for the Defence counsel. The entire list that we provided
20 -- the entire list of documents could be marked for identification, and
21 once some of the exhibits we showed to the witness admitted into evidence
22 by the Trial Chamber, at that stage we could delete the number used for
23 identification and use the same number that was previously indicated on
24 the document.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as this
1 issue is concerned, we will have a number for the document which will be
2 marked for identification. We will then delete this number used for
3 identification once the witness has identified the relevant document.
4 No comments, no observations.
5 MR. MUNDIS: No.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar has told me that
7 Defence counsel should also provide an official list of the documents
8 with relevant numbers, and then you will ask us, after the witness's
9 examination, for us to delete the numbers used for identification and for
10 the exhibits to be given definitive numbers. This will be done provided
11 that the documents have been identified and haven't been contested.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would like to
14 make sure that you are receiving interpretation. If so, please say so.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am receiving interpretation.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may proceed
17 with the cross-examination.
18 WITNESS: ZIJAD CABER [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Daryl Mundis. I'm one of
23 the Prosecutors in this case. I'm going to be asking you some questions
24 this afternoon, sir. And it's certainly not my intention in any way to
25 confuse you, so if any of my questions are not clear, I would simply ask
1 you to say so, or if you don't understand a question, to say so and I
2 will either repeat or rephrase the question. Do you understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sir, can you tell us, please, the precise dates that you were the
5 commanding officer of the 312th.
6 A. As for the 312th Motorised Brigade, I acted as commander from
7 mid-November. Now, why am I not stating the exact date? It is because
8 of the fact that the period during which the brigade was established was
9 largely spent on various issues involving the establishment of the staff.
10 They worked together with the Territorial Defence. So that the official
11 date of the establishment of the 312th Motorised Brigade and my first
12 report in my capacity of brigade commander goes back to the 25th November
14 Q. And for how long did you remain in that position as commander of
15 the 312th Motorised Brigade?
16 A. I remained in that position until the 26th of April 1995.
17 Q. Sir, during the period from the 25th of November 1992 until the
18 end of 1993, where were the headquarters of the 312th Motorised Brigade?
19 A. The headquarters of the 312th Motorised Brigade at the very
20 beginning was located in Travnik, more specifically in the facilities
21 that had been requisitioned from the former company which was called
22 either Sebisic or something to that effect. But I know that it was a
23 former construction company, whose premises were in Travnik.
24 Q. And sir, you said from -- or at the very beginning, it was
25 located there. Did your headquarters remain in that building throughout
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Can you --
4 A. But let me just tell you that after the units had been
5 established, and after the initial period of the work of the brigade
6 staff passed, the headquarters of the brigade also worked from a forward
7 command post which was located in the vicinity of the front line of the
8 Serb forces in the village of Turici which is located to the west of
9 Travnik, some 6 kilometres away from the town. The village of Turici is
10 a Muslim village, and that is where the forward command post was located.
11 However, the main command post, the headquarters was still in Travnik
12 town. And the next thing that might be of interest to you is the fact
13 that the brigade command, after the fighting began and when the Croat
14 population from the villages located to the left of the road - rather, to
15 the south of the main road, that is, Travnik-Jajce main road, when we
16 took possession of all of those abandoned Croat villages in order to
17 provide security and prevent plunder, so it was with that objective in
18 mind that the command in Travnik, the oldest operations group, it was
19 ordered that parts of the brigade be located or transferred to the
20 village of Kraljevica. This was one of the villages that had been
21 abandoned by their Croat population with the exception of just a few
22 families that remained in that village.
23 That date must have been sometime around the 15th of June 1993.
24 As of that date, the command had its seat, its headquarters in the
25 village of Kraljevica. I don't know whether this is enough in terms of
2 Q. That's fine, sir, thank you.
3 Now, from the period of the -- from the mid-November 1992 through
4 the end of 1993, can you tell us, chronologically, from the beginning of
5 when you assumed command to the end of 1993, to whom you reported
6 directly. Who was your immediate supervisor? And if that changed
7 throughout that period, if you could indicate that, that would be
9 A. At the beginning when the 312th Motorised Brigade was
10 established, in light of the command and control system of our superior
11 command, the command of the 3rd Corps, we received tasks -- or rather, we
12 were tasked with the duty to report to the -- to that command about all
13 measures and all assignments that we had and about which we had to inform
14 our superior command. That activity was carried out in a similar manner
15 as it is normally done in every other modern army. We had weekly reports
16 and monthly reports. Later, because of a large number of units and the
17 very complicated communication lines that the headquarters had with their
18 front lines, and also because of the fact that there were several brigade
19 commands, operations units were established in order to unite in a given
20 area several brigades.
21 In Bugojno, for instance, the Operations Group West was
22 established, and the 312th Motorised Brigade became part of that
23 operations group. It was sometime in either March or April that I
24 received a task -- or rather, I was ordered to send my reports to the
25 West Operations Group.
1 There's another thing that might be of interest to you: At the
2 same time, in the same month when the West Operations Group was
3 established, the operations group called Bosanska Krajina was established
4 in Travnik. Our brigades, the Travnik brigades, the 312th and 306th
5 brigades were not part of that operations group because we were under the
6 West Operations Group. But I know, for instance, that the 17th Brigade
7 came under this Bosanska Krajina Operations Group. So the reporting
8 system was quite difficult, and it is very complicated to get in touch
9 with Operations Group West, and that is why we sent our reports to both
10 of these operations group, both to the West Operations Group and the
11 Bosanska Krajina operations Group during the period of time you
13 Q. Sir, if I understand you correctly, at the beginning, you
14 reported directly to the 3rd Corps commander. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, at the very beginning.
16 Q. And then sometime in the spring of 1993 when the Operation Group
17 West was formed, you reported to the commander of that operational group?
18 A. That is correct, sir.
19 Q. At the time the Operation Group West was formed, can you tell us
20 who was the commander of that operational group.
21 A. The commander of the Operation Group West from the day it was
22 established until the end was Brigadier Selmo Cikotic.
23 Q. If I understood you correctly, sir, at no point in time was the
24 312th Motorised Brigade part of Operation Group Bosanska Krajina. Did I
25 understand you correctly?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Now, sir, for the record, because we have a number of documents
3 as well, can you please spell for the Trial Chamber the Bosnian word for
5 A. Z-a-p-a-d.
6 Q. So if we have documents that refer to Operational Group Zapad,
7 that would be Operational Group West?
8 A. That is correct, sir.
9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, at the time OG Zapad was formed, what other
10 brigades were part of that operational group?
11 A. If I'm not precise enough, I apologise for the Chamber in
12 advance. I was not duty-bound to know exactly which brigades, but I know
13 that the following came under that group: 306th, 312th, 317th, 307th. I
14 don't know whether I mentioned 308th Brigade. Those were the units which
15 were part of OG West.
16 Q. Now, sir, during the period 1993, did the 312th Motorised Brigade
17 have a specific area of responsibility, a geographic area of
19 A. In 1993, the 312th Motorised Brigade took over the fighting area
20 that they inherited from the territorial staff. I showed this yesterday.
21 It was west of Travnik in the area of Turbe battleground. And also to
22 the left and the south of Turbe, a number of villages there, and also an
23 area which extended to the north of Turbe.
24 It was a classical military front line. This was -- this had
25 been the area of responsibility of the Territorial Defence. But this
1 area became area of responsibility of the 312th Motorised Brigade, and
2 all elements which are part of the brigade, including logistics and
3 elements of the logistics as well.
4 Q. Now, sir, I know you made a number of indications yesterday on a
5 large colour map that was here in the courtroom. I would ask you if you
6 could, please, to perhaps with the assistance of the usher, if you could
7 take one of the markers, and on the map behind you make a few markings
8 for me as I ask you to do so.
9 You told us yesterday about front lines between the 312th and the
10 Bosnian Serb forces or the VRS or what later became known as the VRS.
11 Can you please mark the front -- let me ask you this first: The front
12 line in that area, did it move a lot during 1993, the front line between
13 your forces and the VRS?
14 A. Just a moment, please. Let me see if I got this right, whether
15 the front line between us and VRS moved in 1993. Let me think: In 1993,
16 no. Sorry, I was confused a bit because I was thinking of 1992 when the
17 situation was much more favourable to the then TO staff. I can give you
18 more information on that if you want.
19 As for 1993, that was your question: The area was the same as I
20 described it yesterday. I can maybe indicate a number of facilities, or
21 rather villages which were part of this area to make things clearer.
22 Q. Let me just ask you so that we don't end up with a map with too
23 much information on it, if you could just draw the front line between the
24 312th and the VRS during 1993. If you could mark that on the map for me,
25 if you see it on the map, the area.
1 A. Turbe is here. I'm going to indicate the locations with respect
2 to areas. Secevo, the village of Secevo, for instance. Shall I make a
3 circle or underline it?
4 Q. If you could visually mark where the line went, as one might see
5 on an operational map in a military room.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can we please make sure the witness's mic is
7 on. We can hardly hear him.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this would roughly be the line
9 in question.
10 MR. MUNDIS:
11 Q. Sir, if you could then, to the northwest of that line, if you
12 could write the initials "VRS" for where the Serb forces were.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And then perhaps to the southeast or to the south or to the
15 right-hand side of that line indicate where the 312th was, perhaps by
16 just writing the numbers "312."
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you. I have a few more questions about the map. Maybe
19 we'll just deal with them all now. At some point in 1993, was the 312th
20 Brigade also maintaining a front line against the Croat or HVO forces?
21 A. In 1993? You mean -- you don't have any specific period in mind,
22 just in 1993?
23 Q. During 1993. Did the 312th Motorised Brigade undergo any kind of
24 combat or have a front line that they were opposed to the Bosnian Croat
25 or HVO forces?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 A. I see now. There was some activity in the latter half of June
2 and later in the second half of that year. Those events caused the 312th
3 Brigade, in addition to a number of troops that secured that area against
4 incursions of the VRS, caused the brigade to undergo a number of clashes
5 with HVO at the time. I had a number of troops on leave for a while, and
6 they entered, those forces entered -- if you understand me correctly, the
7 Territorial Defence staff at that time had their geographically deployed
8 units, the units that were connected to particular facilities, particular
9 streets or neighbourhoods in that area. And that is how this
10 geographical area unit was located, specifically in the territory of the
11 Slimene local commune. Because this is where those incidents started,
12 the incidents which then developed into a conflict with HVO.
13 My troops were on leave at the time, and they came under the
14 command of those area units, and they made themselves available for the
15 Defence against HVO units. And that is how as early as 1993 we had a
16 front line against HVO in the area of Slimene. I am referring mainly to
17 the regional road between Travnik and Novi Travnik, in the area of
18 Slimene. And right before Slimene is where the Defence line of the 312th
19 Brigade was located.
20 Do you want me to indicate that on the map as well?
21 Q. If you could, if it's possible on the map, if you can indicate
22 the line between the 312th and the HVO forces in the area that you've
23 just indicated.
24 A. This would roughly be the line, if you're talking about the
25 312th. The 306th was to the left, or rather to the north, and southwest
1 we had the 308th Mountain Brigade.
2 Q. If we could, if you could indicate where those two units were
3 that you just mentioned, the 308th... ?
4 A. Yes. Do you want me to write down the number?
5 Q. Yes, please.
6 A. I don't know the exact location of the lines. I'll just write
7 down the.
8 Let me also indicate here.
9 Q. Now, if you could, please, sir, to the southeast of that line
10 you've just drawn indicate again on the map that that was the HVO, that
11 on the line -- that on the opposite side of that line that you just drew
12 were the HVO forces. If you could just mark that for us.
13 A. I'm not sure I'm able to be precise. But it was right across the
14 road to Novi Travnik. I shall mark it with a dotted line because of a
15 certain degree of imprecision, because I cannot remember the exact
16 location at this point.
17 Q. That's fine, sir. And if you could then, to the right-hand side
18 and below the dotted line, simply indicate "HVO" so we can all remember
19 several weeks from now what it is that you've drawn.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you. Now, before we finish with the map, perhaps if you
22 could in the right-hand corner down towards the bottom where there's some
23 white space, if you could just initial that or sign your name on this map
24 and put today's date, that would be very helpful.
25 A. Here? [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. Now, one last question about the map: The two lines
2 that you've drawn, the two solid lines, would it be fair to say that the
3 312th Brigade, that its area was within those two lines?
4 A. No. Militarily speaking, the area of responsibility involves
5 everything there is -- that's there. As for battleground and operations
6 theatre, it had to do with the deployment -- the military or combat
7 deployment of armed troops and everything that was indicated in area, in
8 that terrain.
9 As for the area of responsibility, I could have marked where the
10 17th was, where the battalion of the 7th was, and the reserve police
11 force. There were a number of various elements there. There was a
12 command of the oldest operational group there as well. So when talking
13 about area of responsibility, it has to do with the actual deployment of
14 troops, armed troops facing the enemy lines.
15 Q. And that -- thank you for correcting me on that. Let me ask you
16 a couple of questions, then, in terms of following up on what you just
17 told us. You mentioned that there was a unit of the 7th Muslim Mountain
18 Brigade that was in the area that you've just pointed to.
19 A. Yes, there was the battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.
20 I mean, I merely indicated the area of the 312th. Now, if you're
21 referring to specific positions, I don't know that. Are you asking me
22 about the actual position of the 7th?
23 Q. Let's break this down into a couple of smaller questions. You
24 mentioned the battalion of the 7th. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. Do you know which battalion of the 7th was in this area?
2 A. The 1st Battalion, I assume. The reason why I can only assume is
3 because I did not always have opportunity to work with those guys from
4 the brigade command, and their headquarters were in Zenica. You know
5 that it is brigade commands that operate at the same level. They had
6 their own communication line with Zenica. But yes, we were more or less
7 informed about what was going on.
8 Q. Because, of course, you need to know if there were friendly
9 forces in the area where your troops were operating so as to avoid any
10 blue-on-blue or red-on-red fatalities?
11 A. By all means. As I indicated, I mean, I described the 7th -- the
12 battalion of the 7th as friendly force.
13 Q. Exactly. Do you know who the commander in 1993 -- the early part
14 of 1993, at least, who the commander of the 1st Battalion of the 7th
15 Brigade was?
16 A. No, I don't. I'm really sorry, but I cannot remember.
17 Q. Do you know -- sir, do you know where the headquarters of the 1st
18 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was located?
19 A. If my memory serves me right, their headquarters were located
20 next to the former building of the Ministry of the Interior, next door,
21 as far as I remember. If we go back a little, I know that members of the
22 HVO hoisted a flag of the State of Croatia on that building which then
23 provoked a number of incidents.
24 Q. Sir, I take it when you say the "Ministry of the Interior
25 building," you're referring to the MUP building in Travnik.
1 A. Yes, yes, in Travnik. It's not a very large building. It's a
2 two-storey house.
3 Q. Sir, I think we're finished with the map, so if you would like to
4 sit down, that's fine. If you prefer to stand, I don't mind that either,
5 but we're done with the map for now. Thank you.
6 Sir, during the period in 1993, were there any facilities within
7 the area where the 312th was located where soldiers of the 3rd Corps were
9 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean, "where they
10 were trained"?
11 Q. Well, during 1993 -- let's back up, then. During 1993, did the
12 312th Motorised Brigade undergo regular military training? Did you train
13 your troops?
14 A. Well, if only that had been possible. I do apologise. I
15 understand your question now. We did train the troops, but the training
16 wasn't such that I could train the entire unit, platoons, companies, and
17 battalion. Regardless of the kind of training concerned, the training
18 was partial. It involved individuals, the training of individuals, the
19 training of groups, and men who were in units and were not engaged in
20 combat operations at the time. So our plan was to finish the cycle of
21 training, whether it had to do with introducing them to certain military
22 theories or whether it had to do with the code of conduct, et cetera.
23 Everything that used to be done in peacetime couldn't be done with the
24 brigade members under the conditions that prevailed. But we had such
25 training areas behind the combat lines. I could show you where they
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 were. It was perhaps a kilometre or two behind the lines in an area that
2 wasn't inhabited, and that is where the soldiers were trained in what one
3 would have to do in combat.
4 But we tried to complete the cycle of training regardless of
5 whether it had to do with combat or discipline, et cetera. But the
6 soldiers would be soldiers. There was a man in the unit -- there were
7 men who were shepherds in the unit, and there were others who had
8 university educations. There were some who were quicker and some who
9 were slower. You had to train the establishment units, and sometimes the
10 task was one that took a little time to execute. So the training that
11 was provided was provided in the field, in the combat area, or sometimes
12 in facilities where units were preparing themselves for rotation,
13 preparing to replace men who were already in the field. Such facilities
14 had been requisitioned for the purposes of the brigade.
15 Q. Can you tell us, other than these local training areas, if
16 soldiers from your -- from the 312th Motorised Brigade were sent to other
17 areas within the 3rd Corps for training.
18 A. Well, yes. That probably did occur. But to be more specific, as
19 far as I can remember, at that time there was a training centre in
20 Zenica, and we had recruits there, too, and we were training recruits
21 there at that time. We were training men who knew nothing about the
22 army, youths who had to do their military service. So this is something
23 that existed at the time. We had this training centre, this educational
24 centre in Zenica, and that is where these men would be trained to become
25 soldiers. And perhaps they were trained in legal matters to a certain
1 extent. Often there were seminars about the security service, and there
2 were issues relating to the assistant commander of the 3rd Corps. He
3 issued instructions, assigned tasks for the forthcoming periods. There
4 were intelligence tasks, et cetera, et cetera.
5 But we had to adapt to the new situation that had developed. The
6 conditions were not such as they had been during peacetime.
7 Q. Sir, who was responsible for this training? Who did the
9 A. Well, the person who was most responsible to the training of
10 brigade members, if we're talking about the training of the entire
11 brigade, was the brigade commander. As far as plans are concerned,
12 engaging a certain part of the brigade, then it's that segment, the
13 battalion commander, that is responsible. If the task was to train men
14 how to carry out certain tasks, train men how to be disciplined, et
15 cetera, then this was his responsibility. But someone from the brigade
16 command had to be present. And this was usually the brigade commander.
17 He had to be present. He had to provide instructions, guidelines, and
18 then after the training had been completed he had to make a closing
19 statement and assign certain tasks after the entire training period had
20 been completed.
21 Q. Sir, were you aware of any instance during 1993 when foreign
22 soldiers or foreign fighters or mujahedin conducted any training for
23 members of the 312th Motorised Brigade?
24 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that in October or November 1992,
1 General Hadzihasanovic spent some time in Travnik. Other than this
2 occasion, do you remember any instances, other than this time you've told
3 us about, when General Hadzihasanovic visited Travnik or the 312th
4 Motorised Brigade?
5 A. Well, just a minute. Yes. Commander Hadzihasanovic visited the
6 brigade. I'll tell you the month. I think it was in June or in August
7 -- in July or August 1993 in my command post in Kraljevica. And the army
8 commander, Mr. Rasim Delic, was there, too. I know that it was a very
9 humid summer day, but I'm not sure whether it was in July or in the
10 August. That was the day when I as a brigade commander received a task
11 from the command of the operations group which was the oldest command.
12 It had been in existence before the command of the 3rd Corps. I was
13 given a task to prepare a briefing which was to be presented to the corps
14 commander and the army commander, and I was to inform them of the
15 preparedness of the brigade, the situation in the brigade, of problems,
16 and I was to make suggestions. The visit occurred in the morning, and he
17 was there for two or three hours.
18 Q. Other than this occasion that you've just told us about, do you
19 recall him being in Travnik or meeting with you or other leaders of the
20 312th Brigade during 1993?
21 A. No. Knowing Commander Enver, I doubt that he wanted to meet some
22 of my commanders. He wouldn't have wanted to do so without my being
23 presented. But I really can't remember now. If he had been present, I
24 as brigade commander would have been present, too, because he is a
25 soldier just like me and he understands such matters.
1 Q. Other than these two occasions when Commander Hadzihasanovic came
2 to Travnik, on how many occasions from the time of your appointment as
3 commander of the 312th to the end of 1993 did you travel to Zenica or
4 anywhere else to meet with General Hadzihasanovic?
5 A. Immediately after the brigade had been established, there was a
6 previously assigned task to prepare for a briefing on what had been done
7 with regard to the order for forming a brigade. That was in December
8 1992. And we informed them of what had been done. We informed them of
9 the level attained, we informed them of the problems, et cetera, et
10 cetera. What I said yesterday -- what I mentioned yesterday were
11 problems that all the brigades had, from Maglaj as far as Gornji Vakuf.
12 Later, I don't remember whether I was there in January, but I
13 know that I went on one other occasion. But the commander wasn't there.
14 His chief, I don't know whether it was Mr. Mekic or someone else, he
15 received us, and afterwards there were certain other events. Information
16 was provided. There were orders, and there was the formation of
17 operation groups. And all our duties, all our tasks, all our reports
18 were forwarded to the operation groups. There was a specific situation
19 in Travnik because we were tied to OG Zapad, and I only saw Mr. Selmo on
20 one occasion, you know, because at the time it was impossible to go there
21 via Donja Vakuf. The Serbian forces were present there. As for the
22 other roads, the checkpoints had already been erected and HVO extremists
23 had already mounted weapons in certain areas, and it was very difficult
24 to pass through. So in the second half of 1993, the situation was very
25 difficult and people were starving.
1 And it's interesting to point out that at that time, the
2 international community was present. There were large numbers of
3 refugees, and the Travnik area is a small area.
4 Q. I'm going to move on to a different topic now, sir. Yesterday I
5 believe you told us that your men were occasionally allowed to return to
6 their homes, and that some of them lived in Travnik, Kakanj, and other
7 places in Central Bosnia. Is that accurate?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also told us or mentioned, and you were shown some documents
10 to this effect, that a number of soldiers from the 312th Motorised
11 Brigade were referred to competent legal authorities and otherwise
12 disciplined for criminal activity. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. You also told us that - and this is a quote from the English
15 transcript - "there are quite a lot of proceedings instituted because of
16 looting." And my question, sir, is: First of all, do you recall
17 instituting proceedings concerning looting?
18 A. Proceedings instituted by the security organs in my brigade, that
19 is to say, by the military police, were then referred to the prosecution
20 office in the municipal court. I no longer remember how they operated
21 because they weren't my subordinates. But I think that at that time, I
22 didn't -- I wasn't much liked by my combatants. You know there was a lot
23 of hunger and people would be sentenced because of stealing a bag of
24 potatoes or they would be sentenced to 60 days in prison. But that was
25 the situation. That's how things were at the time, you know. I
1 understand all the rules. I know what has to be done. But that was the
2 situation and that was what was done.
3 As far as the criminal reports that our brigade service provided
4 to the competent court are concerned, I'm not sure how they proceeded.
5 I'm not sure how they characterised these crimes, because the judicial
6 authorities were after all independent at the time.
7 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you a couple of follow-on questions from
8 this. I guess my question is, sir, you told us you recalled a number of
9 proceedings involving looting. First of all, is that your recollection?
10 A. There were criminal reports as a result of looting. A number of
11 criminal reports were forwarded to the competent court because of the
12 looting that had occurred.
13 Q. Do you remember, sir, what geographic area these alleged looting
14 incidents occurred in?
15 A. Well, the documents show - and this can be seen in the statement
16 of reasons - it says proceedings were instituted because he stole
17 something from Bosniak houses or Croatian houses or there were villages
18 on the road from -- leading from the position to the house. So it didn't
19 just have to do with abandoned Croatian villages which we really had
20 secured. Let me tell you that my Croatian friends regret not having
21 looted to a greater extent, because after the war they weren't provided
22 with any humanitarian aid or any assistance; although we weren't
23 responsible, because the MUP was present there and the civilian
24 protection and the organs of power. But I did everything that I could to
25 protect all the villages and the Croatian people who had to leave those
1 houses because they were under threat. And thank goodness that people
2 have been able to return and people are happy to be able to live, at
3 least to a certain extent, in their houses, and they don't have to suffer
4 the consequences of what happened during that wartime period in 1993.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I am approximately
7 about halfway done with the cross-examination. As Your Honours have
8 probably noted, the witness has given some lengthy and very helpful
9 answers. I would hope I could finish in another 45 or perhaps a little
10 bit longer than that, but not much more than that.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have a
12 break now, and we will resume at 4.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may continue.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a series of questions concerning
18 reports or the initiation of investigations into alleged incidents of
19 looting. I understand from what you've told us that some of these
20 locations are not in the area where the 312th was located, but because
21 you told us that your soldiers were occasionally outside of that area,
22 whether on their way home or perhaps doing other things, I'm going to ask
23 you about this nevertheless. I would ask you if you have no information
24 simply to indicate that because there's a lot list of these questions,
25 and we need to move as quickly as possible.
1 Do you recall forwarding any reports or initiating any
2 investigations concerning alleged looting in Dusina in January 1993 by
3 soldiers of the ABiH?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question
5 falls outside the scope of examination-in-chief. And according to the
6 witness's testimony, he has indicated where his brigade was and where he
7 was present. There are no grounds for asking this witness such a
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as this issue is
10 concerned, Defence counsel produced an entire series of documents that
11 have to do with soldiers' behaviour, and in particular that have to do
12 with investigations that were launched within the 312th Motorised
13 Brigade. These are documents that were shown to the witness. The
14 Prosecution is asking the witness whether soldiers from the 312th
15 committed acts outside the zone of responsibility of the 312th while they
16 were returning to their families or going away on leave, et cetera. So
17 the question is directly linked to the investigations carried out because
18 it would be reasonable to know whether the soldiers of the 312th
19 committed crimes or misdemeanors that don't fall within the competence of
20 the 312th. So perhaps the witness could answer the question, and perhaps
22 Mr. Caber, please answer the question. You have understood it.
23 It's very simple. The Prosecution is asking you whether soldiers from
24 the 312th committed any acts or any crimes that don't fall within your
25 competence; and if you found out about such crimes, what did you do?
1 Because you did launch investigations, et cetera. It's very simple.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecution referred to Dusina,
3 and I didn't have any men in that area, nor did any of my men commit any
4 such acts. They weren't involved in any looting. But I am familiar with
5 these matters.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm going to ask you a series of similar
8 questions about a number of locations, and I will give you the name of
9 the location and the month during the year 1993 when these alleged
10 incidents occurred. Again, do you have any recollection of initiating or
11 forwarding any reports concerning alleged looting in the village of
12 Miletici during April 1993?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.
14 There is an error in the translation. It's on page 33, line 17. The
15 last sentence, according to the transcript, is "but I am familiar with
16 these matters," whereas the witness said that he never heard about that,
17 he knew nothing about it, whereas here it says that he knew about that.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you for the clarification.
19 Q. Sir, do you recall initiating any investigations or filing any
20 reports with the competent legal or law enforcement or judicial
21 authorities concerning alleged looting by ABiH soldiers in the village of
22 Miletici during April of 1993?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question seems
24 to indicate that the witness already said that he was familiar with these
25 events. I don't think that the Prosecution can ask a question this way.
1 He should first ask whether the witness knows anything about this, and
2 only after having put such a question to the witness can the Prosecution
3 ask whether there were any investigations.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Mundis, in order to
5 be quite clear, it would be best to ask the witness whether he knew
6 anything about looting incidents that didn't fall within his competence
7 for which he was not responsible, and in such a case what did he do. Try
8 and break the question up into two parts.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Sir, were you aware of allegations that ABiH soldiers looted
11 civilian property in Miletici during April 1993?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Soldiers from the 312th, not BH
13 soldiers. What's the sense of the question? Because if you're asking
14 about BH soldiers, there were 32.000 of them. He can't be familiar with
15 everything. He's familiar with the soldiers for whom he was responsible.
16 Because let us imagine the following case: A man from the 312th commits
17 an act in another area, and he is arrested. Obviously, this soldiers
18 wouldn't be in the force when he assumes his position, and he might know
19 that something happened [as interpreted]. So you must ask him questions
20 about soldiers under his responsibility. He can't know about soldiers
21 who belonged to the BH in general. Is that what the Defence wanted to
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what we wanted to say
24 first of all, and secondly, Mr. President, this question doesn't fall
25 within the scope of the examination-in-chief. And could provisions
1 contained in Rule 90(H) be respected and cross-examination should be
2 limited to examination-in-chief. Going beyond the scope of the
3 examination-in-chief must be justified. Why would the Prosecution want
4 to go beyond the scope of the examination-in-chief? And I think that
5 this is the same principle that was applied to Defence counsel.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But I'd like to point out
7 to the Defence that in the case of the examination-in-chief, you produced
8 documents about investigations. You showed them to the witness, and
9 there's one document referring to 61 investigations into soldiers from
10 312th. This is Document Number 959. It's a document which was shown to
11 the witness, and there are 61 cases referred to. On the basis of this
12 document, the Prosecution claims that there is a link, as one says in
13 English. And the Prosecution is asking the witness whether he was aware
14 of any other cases or of cases referred to in the list. Was he aware of
15 any soldiers who had committed crimes outside his zone of responsibility?
16 For example, in an area for which the 306th was responsible or the 17th,
17 for example, or an area for which some other unit was responsible.
18 So Mr. Caber, I think you have understood the question. Do you
19 think you could answer it because at the present a direct link to
20 Document Number 959.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when members of the --
22 as far as members of the 312th Motorised Brigade are concerned, I cannot
23 be a hundred per cent sure, but I know that my colleagues from other
24 brigades did not inform me of such cases. Therefore, I do not know, and
25 I do not think that members of my units deployed in other areas of
1 responsibility, in areas of responsibility of other brigades, such as
2 306th, 308th, were not involved in such incidents. And you were right to
3 point out, Your Honour, even members of the 307th, because they were also
4 in the area of Bugojno, people who had come from the villages such as
5 Karaula who had abandoned their places of residence.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as Document 959 is
7 concerned, we have 61 cases of looting. We have the names of the
8 perpetrators. We have the references to the Criminal Code. But we do
9 not know the place where these crimes were committed. So the Defence is
10 right. And the Chamber also wanted to ask you this question: As far as
11 these 61 cases are concerned, were these violations committed in the area
12 of Turbe and Travnik where you were deployed, or is it possible that such
13 incidents, such crimes were committed in other areas? That is the
14 question. Is it possible that these incidents took place elsewhere, or
15 is it the case that these crimes were committed only in your area of
16 responsibility? That is, the area of Turbe and Travnik.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it happened a long
18 time ago. I saw this document only a few days ago. Whether these
19 incidents took place elsewhere and what exactly the cases were about, I
20 don't know. These matters were referred to the municipal court in
21 Travnik, and I really cannot remember the details of these cases.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 Would you please continue, Mr. Mundis.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Witness, were you aware of any soldiers of the 312th Motorised
1 Brigade operating in the area of Guca Gora in June of 1993?
2 A. In July 1993, there were no members of the 312th Brigade in the
3 area of Guca Gora.
4 Q. Sir, I asked about June. Perhaps it was a translation error. In
5 June of 1993, were any soldiers of the 312th Motorised Brigade in the
6 area of Guca Gora?
7 A. No, neither in June of 1993, there were no members of the 312th
8 Motorised Brigade in the area of Guca Gora.
9 Q. Were any members of the 312th Motorised Brigade or any
10 subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade operating in the area of
11 Maline in June 1993?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade
14 operating in the area of Cukle or Susanj in June of 1993?
15 A. I have already moved to the area which I'm not familiar with.
16 No, my brigade was not operating in that area, Cukle or Maline. That was
17 the area of another brigade. I did not have any subordinate units of my
18 own that would have been operating in that area.
19 Q. Just to go back to an area we talked a few minutes ago, do you
20 recall or do you have any knowledge of whether any units or subordinate
21 units of the 312th Motorised Brigade were operating in Miletici in April
22 of 1993?
23 A. I believe I have already indicated as far as that period of time
24 is concerned, which is the subject of your question, the brigade was not
25 operating in that area. That was the area of the 306th Mountain Brigade.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Brigade
2 operating in the area of Ovnak in June of 1993?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade
5 operating in the area of Brajkovici in June of 1993?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade
8 operating in the area of Grahovcici in June of 1993?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade in the
11 area of Vares in November 1993?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Witness, as the Presiding Judge just mentioned a few moments ago,
14 yesterday you were shown Defence Document 959 which, among other things,
15 indicated that at least up until 2 May 1993, the date of that document,
16 the military police of the 312th had referred several cases of murder to
17 local authorities, or local legal authorities, for action. Do you recall
18 the specifics of any of those cases, those murder cases?
19 A. I don't. As far as I remember, there were several cases of
20 traffic violations, even a number of fatalities in these traffic
21 incidents. As for murders, no, I should perhaps have a look at the
22 document. But I really don't remember. I mean, you can -- you know what
23 is contained there. If perhaps documentation from the court could be
24 obtained to that effect, that I would be able to remember. But off the
25 top of my head, no, I don't recall.
1 Q. And the fact that you don't recall, that would include any of the
2 victims or the status of the victims of those alleged murders?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness.
5 I'd like to move on to another area.
6 MR. MUNDIS: At this time, Mr. President, I would ask that the
7 witness be shown one of the videotapes, and I would ask that the sound on
8 that videotape, which is Prosecution Exhibit 762, not be played. In
9 other words, that it just be the video shown to the witness.
10 Before we do that, however, I would like to just explain to the
11 witness exactly what it is we're doing and why it is that we're doing
12 that, if I may do so.
13 Q. Witness, we're going to show you a videotape which will be
14 visible on the screen in front of you. And I would ask you to take a
15 look at this tape. And during the time that you are viewing the tape, if
16 you recognise the location of where this videotape was made, I would ask
17 you to say so. And you can simply do that as we're watching the tape. I
18 would also ask you if you recognise any person or persons on the
19 videotape, perhaps to indicate by saying "stop" and telling us the name
20 of the person or persons that you might recognise. And finally, at the
21 end of the tape, I will ask you if you're familiar with the contents of
22 what you've seen and if you can any way shed any light on what we've seen
23 on the videotape.
24 Do you understand what I've asked you to do?
25 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, Mr. President, I would ask that
1 Prosecution Exhibit 762 be shown.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see that the Defence is
3 rising. I think I can anticipate their -- what they want to say. What
4 is the link between the video and the examination-in-chief? Is that what
5 you were going to object to, Ms. Residovic?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, because we do not see any
7 link whatsoever. I should like to see some foundation for this question.
8 Is it the video from the area of responsibility referred to by this
9 witness? That is, the combat lines and the area of responsibility where
10 elements of his brigade were deployed, because after all, that is what he
11 is able to talk about.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are two questions: What
13 is the link with other members of the BH Army? They were members of the
14 BH Army after all, so there could possibly be a link. And then the video
15 and the geographical area of his command which was located to the west of
17 Mr. Mundis, as far as the Chamber is concerned, if you just tell
18 us 762, it doesn't mean much. Could you please clarify.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask with all due respect if
20 the witness could be escorted out of the courtroom in order for me to
21 respond to these questions.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is exactly what we were
23 going to suggest, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you will have to
25 withdraw for a few moments. Do not stray too far from the courtroom.
1 Mr. Mundis, the witness has left the courtroom so that he cannot
2 be influenced by what you're going to tell us. We're listening.
3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 First of all, let me put on the record as I should have done also
5 with respect to the last series of questions that of course the
6 Prosecution would assert that this line of questioning as well as the
7 last series of questions on disciplinary issues falls within the scope of
8 Rule 90(H)(ii), and that is that we are required to put our case to
9 witnesses who appear. And that is what we are attempting to do. And
10 although it might under some interpretations fall outside the scope of
11 the direct examination, it is our assertion that Rule 90(H)(ii) requires
12 us to put our case to witnesses, and that is exactly what we're doing.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You need authorise to do so.
14 In such a case, it is necessary for you to ask the Trial Chamber for
16 MR. MUNDIS: We will respectfully request that authorisation, Mr.
17 President, and hereby do so. Let me add that tape 762, which is in
18 evidence, the Prosecution believes that this videotape was taken in the
19 town of Travnik. Although there are only a few buildings or other
20 physical features that are visible on the tape because it's primarily
21 people, there are some buildings and locations in the background of that
22 tape which lead us to believe that this witness, as someone who was born
23 and grew up in Travnik, would be able to place this videotape in the town
24 of Travnik. Moreover, we would assert that it goes to the issue of the
25 Muslim forces which the witness talked about yesterday. The videotape
1 has a date stamp on it which the witness may or may not know anything
2 about that time period. If the date stamp is accurate, the witness was
3 certainly in Travnik at the time. There are persons that we believe the
4 witness might be able to identify. As was indicated yesterday I believe
5 at transcript page 41, 42, the witness talked about the Muslim forces or
6 the MS, the Muslimanske Snage, we believe that this videotape might
7 show -- the formation of some of these units. And we believe this
8 videotape was taken in Travnik in August of 1992, which is within the
9 time frame during which the Defence led evidence concerning this
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you're requesting leave
12 pursuant to Rule 90(H). We will withdraw for a moments to deliberate.
13 But we will back in a few seconds.
14 But first of all, we will hear what the Defence has to say. The
15 Prosecution was quite clear. This is a videotape that has to do with the
16 town that the witness is very familiar with since he had his office
17 there, he had his headquarters in Travnik. So the Prosecution wants to
18 ask him whether he can recognise his town. So the link is quite evident
19 in that case. And secondly, he wants to ask him whether there are any
20 persons in the video whom he recognises, perhaps his friends. What would
21 you like to say about that?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution
23 correctly quoted 90(H)(i) which says that if a witness can give evidence
24 relevant to the case for the party examining it. However, in (H)(ii) it
25 says, in the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence
1 relevant to the case of the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to
2 that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel
3 appears, which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the witness.
4 First of all, my colleague from the Prosecution didn't make that
5 clear to the witness, and in no way did they say there was something in
6 contradiction to the evidence the witness gave. We believe that these
7 arguments should be presented before the Trial Chamber allows us to ask
8 questions -- the witness about the context. This is how we have
9 proceeded. So these questions fall outside the scope of
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a point 3 that gives
12 the Trial Chamber discretion to decide on the matter. But as far as item
13 (ii) is concerned, we are being asked whether so far you have elements
14 that contradict what the witness has said in his testimony. So far, he
15 has not denied being in Travnik. He hasn't denied knowing certain
17 So in Rule 90 (ii), on the basis of this Rule, is there any
18 information, are there any elements that lead you to believe that the
19 witness might be contradicting himself? Although according to Rule
20 90(H)(iii), the Trial Chamber has discretion to permit any inquiries.
21 But as far as (H)(ii) is concerned, could you tell us whether you have
22 any elements, any information that might contradict the evidence given by
23 the witness so far.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps it's an interpretation issue.
25 Our understanding is not that we must demonstrate that the witness has
1 contradicted himself, which is how the English interpretation as
2 reflected in the transcript came from what Your Honour just said. Our
3 interpretation is that it must contradict our case. Our case has been
4 one - and we explained this in our 98 bis submission most recently - that
5 the Travnik -- the Muslim forces in Travnik evolved into the 7th Muslim
6 Mountain Brigade. This witness yesterday -- and that the TO was involved
7 in that, and eventual evolving nature of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.
8 We explained that in our Rule 98 bis submissions, and if Your Honours
9 would like to me to cite the paragraphs, I can do that.
10 The witness yesterday at pages 41 and 42, and I think again at
11 page 44 if I'm not mistaken, indicated that there were contacts between
12 the commander of the Travnik TO and the Muslim forces in Travnik. He
13 then told us that the Muslim forces did not or were not under the control
14 of the Travnik TO. And I believe that's at line 21 on page 42 of
15 yesterday's transcript. That certainly contradicts the Prosecution case.
16 And we believe that the provisions of Rule 90(H)(i) including the final
17 sentence and Rule 90(H)(ii) permit us to show this to the witness.
18 It's entirely possible he won't recognise anything on the
19 videotape. But we believe that we not only can do this, but the Rules
20 are formulated in such a way that we are required to do that, once again,
21 once we have the Trial Chamber's leave.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will withdraw
23 for a few moments. We have understood the Prosecution has said. The
24 Prosecution says that they have certain elements on the basis of which
25 they believe that what the witness says is in contradiction of the
1 information that they have, and in particular it concerns the Muslim
2 forces present in Travnik. The Prosecution believes there is a
3 contradiction between its case and the testimony of the witness, and this
4 is the reason for which the Prosecution wants to show the witness the
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to
7 appeal to you that while determining this issue, perhaps you should have
8 a look at the testimony of the witness. Witness did not mention the 7th
9 Muslim Brigade yesterday. He spoke about the establishment of a group of
10 Muslim forces, as far as I remember. I don't have the relevant line in
11 the transcript, but what the Prosecutor is now trying to tell us, this is
12 not something the witness testified to yesterday. It is not in his
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will withdraw, and we will
15 be back in a few seconds.
16 --- Break taken at 4.38 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After having deliberated on the
19 basis of Article 90(H)(iii), the Chamber believes that the Prosecution
20 will be granted leave to ask questions on other -- or additional matters,
21 and in particular, questions on this video about Travnik.
22 Madam Usher, could you call the witness into the courtroom.
23 Mr. Mundis, how long is this video?
24 MR. MUNDIS: I believe the excerpt is about 6 to 6 and a half
25 minutes, Mr. President. And again, as with some of the other videos,
1 it's not the best quality, but it's the best we have.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Caber, you will now be
3 shown a video, and you will tell us what you think about it.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the person who is speaking
6 now. It's the Mufti from Travnik, Nusret Begovic. He's the one speaking
7 with the loudspeaker now.
8 And the location that we see on the screen, to tell you the
9 truth, I've already seen this clip on our TV in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It
10 was a political programme which lasted 60 minutes. So I am familiar with
11 some of the scenes. I am not familiar with the part relating to the war,
12 but I have seen the 60-minute long political programme a year or two
13 years ago. That is the only thing I can comment on. But this at the
14 time had nothing to do with me. At the time, I was a member of the
15 Territorial Defence staff in the vicinity of this location, in Medresa,
16 the lower part of Travnik where the headquarters were located some 300
17 metres away from here. I don't recall that period of time.
18 I was not present when this unit was lined up for inspection,
19 whatever the unit was called. I can only tell you the name that they
20 used in that programme, mujahed. But this is what I learned later on. I
21 don't recall this from the relevant times. The chief of staff had to be
22 present at the front line against the Serbs, and we are talking about the
23 month of August. And what I can tell you about it comes from the fact
24 that I saw the tape and I just recognised the Mufti, Mr. Nusret Begovic,
25 if this is the end of the clip, but there's probably more.
1 MR. MUNDIS: There is a little bit more, Mr. President, that we
2 would ask that that also be shown to the witness, with your leave.
3 [Videotape played]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman here is Mr. McLeod
5 [as interpreted]. This one at the left when I arrived in Travnik in
6 1995, he had his videotheque, a video club from before. These are the
7 people I found when I arrived in Travnik. You told me to identify the
8 people that I know. So that's one of them. Shall I go on?
9 MR. MUNDIS:
10 Q. If I could, sir, the name, Mr. McLeod, was that the name of the
12 A. Mektauf.
13 Q. Can you spell that for us, please.
14 A. M-e-k-t-a-u-f.
15 Q. Can you please indicate to us on the screen, if you still see
16 this individual, which person he is on the screen. And if he's no longer
17 visible, we can rewind the tape a little bit until you again see him.
18 A. Could you rewind a little bit, just a little bit.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it will take us just a moment to take
20 that clip back.
21 Q. In the meantime, sir, do you know the first name or any other
22 information about Mr. Mektauf?
23 A. Abdul Mektauf, Abdul.
24 Q. Do you know where he's from?
25 A. I don't know. Either from Iraq or Syria, but I don't know. I
1 really can't remember. I know he's from an Arab country. I knew him
2 because he was in Travnik. I was not interested in him, you know. He
3 lived and worked there, you know. But would you rewind it a little bit,
5 Q. We're still getting that back, sir. I have one last question
6 before we return to the tape. Did Mr. Mektauf speak Bosnian?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. I believe we've now rewound the tape, and as soon as you see him
9 come on to the screen, if you could tell us to stop, please, and I'll ask
10 you to identify, to describe what he's wearing, what he looks like on the
11 screen that's in front of you.
12 A. Yes, stop now. Stop. Rewind just a little bit. That's right.
13 The man has his arms behind his back. He's wearing a camouflage T-shirt.
14 He has closely cropped hair.
15 Q. Is this individual that you're describing clean-shaven or does he
16 have facial hair in the photograph?
17 A. It's not very clear. I don't think he's clean-shaven. Perhaps
18 he has a two- or three-day beard, but he's wearing a camouflage T-shirt.
19 His arms are behind his back, and if we're looking at the same image, it
20 says LP on his belt.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. MUNDIS: I would just simply for the sake of continuity, Mr.
23 President, ask that the videotape be played to its end, and then I'll
24 have a few remaining questions.
25 Q. And again, sir, if you spot anyone else or any other identifying
1 feature on this tape, tell us to stop the tape and we'll again stop the
2 tape. Thank you.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Sir, just to clarify then, the only two individuals that you
6 recognised were Mr. Begovic and Mr. Mektauf. Is that correct?
7 A. Avdibegovic.
8 Q. Can you please again for the transcript spell that for us,
10 A. A-v-d-i-b-e-g-o-v-i-c. Avdibegovic.
11 Q. Thank you. And Witness, can you tell us the location of where
12 that videotape was taken, if you know.
13 A. Well, you can see that this was shot in front of the Medresa in
14 Travnik. That's at the entrance to Travnik. It's as you approach
15 Travnik from the eastern direction, from the direction of Vitez towards
16 Jajce, or rather Turbe. Do you know what a Medresa is?
17 Q. If you could explain that for the benefit of everyone in and
18 around the courtroom, that would be helpful.
19 A. At the time, the Medresa was used as a furniture salon. During
20 the communist period, it was a furniture salon. But a long time ago, at
21 the time of the Osmanlije, it was a religious school, a secondary
22 religious school for pupils of Islamic faith. That's what a Medresa is.
23 This name has been maintained because of the -- for traditional reasons,
24 because of the cultural situation. Because Travnik was the centre of the
25 Osmanlije Kingdom for a certain period of time, in the 15th and 16th
1 century. That is why the Medresa has that name, and it has its own
2 traditions, and it has a certain history.
3 But when this video was shot, it was used as a furniture salon.
4 It was used as a furniture salon at the time of the former Yugoslavia.
5 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday about the Muslim forces or the
6 Muslimanske Snage or MS, that was formed in Travnik. Do you remember
7 telling us about that yesterday?
8 A. Yes, I do. At the time of the TO staff, the time of the
9 detachment and the regional staffs, yes, I remember this. In the area of
10 the municipality, in the centre of town, someone launched the initiative
11 to form Muslim forces. They were supposed to follow a certain code of
12 conduct, et cetera. And these forces were not under the command of the
13 TO staff. And they went into action in the direction of the Serbian
14 forces in the area of Vlasic, in the area near to Jajce and at the time
15 that Karaula was in the hands of the TO. And later, they were in the
16 Bjelo Buca area. And once the army and brigades had been formed,
17 sometime in November, a battalion was formed out of these Muslim forces,
18 the 7th Muslim Battalion, and its headquarters were in Zenica.
19 Q. So sir, you're telling us that the Muslim forces from Travnik
20 later became the 7th Muslim Brigade?
21 A. No, they became part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. A battalion was
22 formed. They became a battalion.
23 Q. They became part of the 1st Battalion of the 7th. Isn't that
25 A. That's right. That's right.
1 Q. And that was the battalion which remained in Travnik through
3 A. I don't remember whether they were there all the time, but yes,
4 it was -- its location was linked to Travnik.
5 Q. Were you aware, sir -- you told us that -- I believe you just
6 said someone was involved in forming the Muslim forces. Do you know who?
7 Who were the leaders? Who were the people involved in establishing the
8 Muslim forces in Travnik?
9 A. No. Whatever I said, it would only be guesswork. And it would
10 be based on newspaper reports, et cetera. If I go back to that time, I
11 can claim that I didn't know who the people who initiated this were.
12 But let me tell you that at that time, when I go back to that
13 period, to the year 1992 and 1993, or rather 1992 when the Muslim forces
14 were in that area, this didn't bother us, the TO staff, because they were
15 obedient. They carried out orders, but they weren't under our command.
16 They followed to an extent, or they followed more or less the code of
17 conduct for members of the Islam faith. They followed a code of conduct
18 that perhaps wasn't exactly the same of that of other units or that of
19 the TO. But as to who was responsible for its formation, I wouldn't
21 Q. Sir, do you know Asim Koricic?
22 A. Yes, I do know Asim Koricic. I saw him at that time in 1992 and
23 in 1993, too. He is someone who often appeared in the TO staff. He
24 would have coffee there, speak to the commander. They probably spoke
25 about other matters, too. At the time, I think he was a commander. I'm
1 not a hundred per cent sure, but I think he was the commander of those
2 forces at that time because according to the chronology, later there was
3 the brigade formation, then the commander of brigades, and commanders of
4 battalions, et cetera.
5 But I'm not familiar with all of this. I don't want to get
6 involved in guesswork.
7 Q. You told us yesterday at page 42, line 21 of the transcript that
8 there were contacts between the commander of the Travnik TO and the MS or
9 Muslimanske Snage, Muslim forces in Travnik. What type of contacts were
11 A. Very frequently, the staff commander didn't have the duty of
12 informing his staff about his conversations with his colleague, with
13 another commander. I assume that there could only have been a form of
14 cooperation in terms of engaging forces, where such forces were not
15 sufficient, in areas where they were fighting Serbian areas. That this
16 was the area that the TO staff covered, from Vlasic then up to Turbe, but
17 I'm not a hundred per cent sure about this.
18 Q. /Sir, the Muslim forces or MS in Travnik, was that unit or organ
19 or organisation comprised of local Bosnians or foreigners or both?
20 A. Well, it's interesting to note that at that time in Travnik,
21 people from Arab countries also started appearing, just like members of
22 humanitarian organisations and journalists came. They came to see and to
23 film what was happening to the Bosniak people. And I remember that in
24 1992, there were a lot of Arabs who, in the presence of the president of
25 the municipality, came to offer assistance to the TO and to the refugees.
1 They wanted to offer humanitarian assistance and food, but they also
2 wanted to help TO units that had logistical problems.
3 As far as the Muslim forces are concerned, as far as I can
4 remember, they mostly consisted of Bosniaks, Bosniaks from that area, you
5 know. I know that later on, quite a few people came from Bosanska
6 Krajina. There were young men who became part of that formation. And
7 they followed this code of conduct.
8 I know that at that time, before the formation of the brigade,
9 before the formation of the 7th Brigade, or rather, before the formation
10 of the battalion for Travnik, there were some of those people, there were
11 some of those Arabs who were part of these forces. As to what they did
12 exactly, well, it was probably what I was saying yesterday. It probably
13 had to do with the Croatian people and all those who wanted to help the
14 Croatian people -- well I assume they wanted to help the Muslim people,
15 just like others wanted to help the Croatian people. I saw two or three
16 people in uniform who were members of the Muslim forces at that time;
17 that is to say, before the formation of the 7th Battalion.
18 Q. And when you say you saw people in uniform who were members of
19 the Muslim forces at that time, were you referring to foreigners?
20 A. Well, they were probably foreigners. They were certainly
21 foreigners. They weren't people whom I knew from Travnik; therefore,
22 they were foreigners. I pointed to a man who was a foreigner at one
23 point in time, but then he became a Bosniak national. But as far as
24 these other people are concerned at the time, they were foreigners, at
25 least as far as I was concerned. I was an onlooker from the side. As to
1 whether they had any valid, legitimate documents, I don't know.
2 Q. And sir, when you say "I pointed to a man who was a foreigner at
3 that point in time," you're referring to Mr. Mektauf?
4 A. No, I don't think he was a foreigner at that time. He was a
5 member of the Bosniak people. I believe that he had the documents at the
6 time according to which he was a Bosnian. Because when I went to
7 Travnik, I lived in Travnik. I know that he had a shop of his own, a
8 video club, and I don't believe that as a foreigner he could have
9 received permission to have a private business of his own if he had not
10 been a national of Bosnia. I don't think that at that time in 1992 he
11 was a foreigner.
12 Q. But you told us he was not born in Bosnia. I believe you said
13 Syria or Iraq.
14 A. No, he wasn't. He wasn't born in Bosnia. As I said, he came
15 earlier on. According to the information I heard, all citizens in
16 Travnik knew this gentleman. Travnik is a small town. Everyone knows
17 that there was a video club called Palma, and that's where people would
18 go to borrow videos before the war. I don't know what else I could say.
19 Q. Sir, you told us that there were foreigners who came and also a
20 number of humanitarian agencies and a number of refugees. There were a
21 large number of people who were not from Travnik who came to Travnik in
22 1992. Is that an accurate summation?
23 A. That's correct. That's right.
24 Q. Do you have any idea as to an approximate number of foreign,
25 middle-eastern individuals who came to the Travnik area and who became
1 soldiers or fighters in the Travnik area?
2 A. No. I really don't have a precise idea. It would just be
3 guesswork. As I said, two or three men, a while ago. There were a few
4 of them in town. There were a few uniformed individuals from Arab
5 countries, as you say, or from the near east.
6 You know, I'm trying to be frank. I could tell you about
7 something that I saw later on, but I'm trying to be frank and tell you
8 about 1992, about what I saw in 1992. I didn't see many of them.
9 Q. Moving on then into early 1993, did you see more of them? Say,
10 in the first two or three months of 1993?
11 A. No, not in Travnik. Not in the town of Travnik. That battalion
12 of ours was already in existence. It was part of the 7th Muslim Brigade,
13 and it had its headquarters in Zenica. And the atmosphere was such that
14 the organs of power, or rather, through cooperating with the organs of
15 power, wanted to have the minimum number of uniformed individuals in the
16 town. But outside of my zone of responsibility -- everything I could say
17 would just be guesswork. In the Biljana area and the area of Zenica and
18 other areas I would say would just be guesswork.
19 I've already seen this video. It was shown on a political
20 programme. I saw it quite recently.
21 Q. Sir, you just mentioned "outside of your zone of responsibility,"
22 and I have a couple of questions about that. Were there areas that you
23 were aware of, that you had knowledge of, that had a high concentration
24 of foreign soldiers in Central Bosnia in the early part of 1993?
25 A. No. A high concentration of foreign combatants? No. No. A
1 high concentration; well, that really reminds one of the formation of
2 brigades, divisions, et cetera. I mentioned what we had. We had the
3 zones of responsibility for the 306th, the 312th, the 17th Krajina, the
4 7th Battalion. You know, those were the forces in Travnik. But as to
5 everything else you're asking me about, I could try to guess about these
6 matters, but it goes beyond that conflict, beyond the war.
7 Q. No, I'm not asking you to guess, sir. I'm wondering if -- rather
8 than focussing on brigades or divisions or large units like that, were
9 you aware of or did you have personal knowledge of specific locations
10 where there were, say, company-sized or even platoon-sized groups of
11 foreign soldiers in Central Bosnia in the early part of 1993?
12 A. I'll be frank: The first information I had about the existence
13 of such a unit came from UNPROFOR. The liaison officers often came to my
14 command post and provided the -- and provided me with information. So
15 that, as far as this El Mujahed unit was concerned, I don't know how that
16 would be translated, which would say deployed in the area of Biljana, in
17 the Travnik Municipality, or to be more specific, in Mehurici, liaison
18 officers from UNPROFOR, from BritBat, would often contact me, and they
19 were interested in the activities of these combatants. They weren't
20 active in my brigade's zone of responsibility. I didn't know much about
21 them. So there was such a unit in the area I have just mentioned, in the
22 Mehurici area. As to the strength of that unit, as to how it was
23 equipped, et cetera, I have no information. I didn't have any
24 information about that at the time. And likewise, I don't know under
25 whose command this unit was. It certainly wasn't linked to the army.
1 But I don't want to start answering other questions that you are surely
2 going to put to me.
3 Q. Sir, were you -- did you have knowledge of any foreign combatants
4 operating within your area of responsibility, within areas controlled by
5 the 312th Motorised Brigade?
6 A. No, as I have already said. In my area, in my zone, in my
7 brigade's zone of combat operations, no such foreign combatants were
8 present. I have information according to which they never appeared
9 there, because my battalion commanders would inform me, and I saw in the
10 conflict, the aggression and the entire situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina
11 from a different perspective, as well as what we had to fight for because
12 we didn't have any other state. I didn't need anyone else's -- I didn't
13 need anyone's assistance. My idea is quite different. I didn't need
14 anyone's assistance. We had enough forces. I perhaps needed weapons at
15 the time, but not men who would fight for me.
16 Q. You told us, sir, about receiving information from UNPROFOR and
17 BritBat. And among the things they told you about was, as you put it,
18 the El Mujahed unit in Mehurici. Other than -- other than -- those
19 international military personnel, did you have any other knowledge coming
20 from other sources about this unit in Mehurici?
21 A. Well, I mentioned the impossibility of having communications in
22 the case of command and control, when we're talking about the 3rd Corps
23 and the subordinate brigades, and I had one of those brigades. There
24 were operations groups that were formed. So in Travnik itself, the OG
25 Bosanska Krajina was active. It was headed by the late General Alagic.
1 On a number of occasions at briefings, I heard from the late
2 Alagic that he had problems with people who claimed to be the El Mujahed.
3 They would not obey and carry out orders. That's supposed to be just one
4 command, the oldest command in the town and in the zone that the OG
5 Bosanska Krajina had at the time. There were problems all the time. At
6 least, this is what I found out from Commander Alagic. These people were
7 people or groups who were not obedient. They didn't want to place
8 themselves under anyone else's command. And because of a certain code of
9 conduct that they had, they wanted to wage a war in the way that they
10 thought was most appropriate. They wanted to decide whether they were go
11 into combat on any given day or whether they would simply not go into
12 combat. This is what I heard from Alagic, and there were quite a few
13 problems. They didn't want to be placed under anyone's command. These
14 were the forces that were present in that area. As to whether they
15 engaged in combat or not, I do not know. I had problems of my own.
16 So sometimes I was sorry for the fact that the commander had to
17 deal with problems that shouldn't have been his, but that was a problem
18 that was present. It was a cancer that was present in his zone of combat
20 Q. Sir, you've used the term "code of conduct" several times. And
21 I'm wondering if you can perhaps elaborate or explain to the Trial
22 Chamber what exactly you mean by the use of that phrase "code of
24 A. You see, I've never read it. But I have heard of its existence.
25 I know that such a code existed within such forces that had been
1 established. As to the contents of this code, I don't know. It is only
2 my assumption that it involved religious matters as well. But I couldn't
3 tell you more than that because I really haven't read it.
4 Q. Sir, this code of conduct, this document or pamphlet or booklet
5 or whatever, does that go by the title "Instructions for the Muslim
7 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I was not familiar with such
8 literature at all.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence is on their feet,
10 but the witness has already said he didn't know.
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since the
12 witness has already given the answer, there is no need to react.
13 MR. MUNDIS:
14 Q. Sir, I have just a couple of questions. It was unclear to me
15 earlier when you spotted Mr. Mektauf on the videotape the time period
16 when I first met him or first knew him. Can you tell us, please, when
17 you first met this individual and roughly what year or time period.
18 A. In 1991 in August, after I had arrived from the former JNA, and
19 since a cousin of mine worked in his video club - she issued videotapes -
20 I went to see her, and it was on that occasion that I met her boss.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Caber.
22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
23 time, Mr. President. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have a break in about
25 five minutes. I just have a few questions for you.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The boss of your cousin, Mr.
3 Mektauf, do you know where he is at the moment? Do you know what his
4 whereabouts are currently?
5 A. Yes, I know. I learned through the media that he is in detention
6 in Sarajevo and that proceedings are currently underway against him.
7 Whether he's only a suspect or already an accused, I don't know.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you don't know anything
9 about the charges against him.
10 A. To be perfectly frank, Your Honour, I know only what I was able
11 to hear on the TV.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did they say on TV?
13 A. On TV, I heard that it is because of the fact that certain
14 individuals were taken away from Travnik and detained in locations which
15 were known only to him. So cases of disappearances of certain
16 individuals including a number of deaths. That's what I heard.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A moment ago when answering a
18 question that was put to you by the Prosecutor, you mentioned a briefing
19 with General Alagic, and you said that he had told you that he had had
20 problems with these foreigners, and you also indicated that they did not
21 obey orders, and that they were causing problems. Does that mean that it
22 is possible that these elements participated together with the BH Army
23 forces in certain military actions?
24 A. Most probably because of what I had already said with relation to
25 Mr. Alagic and the problems he experienced with such individuals it would
1 have never occurred to him to link the army with those forces. Because
2 from what he told me, it seems that they refused to obey orders. That is
3 the only knowledge that I have about these units.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean if they refuse
5 to obey orders, that it is possible that they had been asked to take part
6 in military actions?
7 A. Well, Your Honour, before any troops can be used for military
8 actions, combat actions, such troops need to be placed under certain
9 command. As far as I remember, they refused to be placed under the
10 command of General Alagic.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the videoclip that we saw a
12 moment ago, dating from the month of August 1992, people were wearing
13 summer clothes in the video. We also saw a number of young soldiers
14 equipped, dressed up. We also saw a coat of arms or a sleeve band on the
15 right arm of one of them. I'm referring to the individual who was next
16 to Mektauf. Now, these soldiers, in your opinion, what were they doing
17 there and where had they come from?
18 A. The soldiers whom we were able to see lined up wearing uniforms,
19 I can only assume that they were linked to the area of Travnik, or
20 perhaps even a greater area, the area of Bosanska Krajina, because we had
21 able-bodied young men who had arrived in a convoy from that area. So
22 those would have been these young soldiers. And again, I have to go back
23 to what I earlier said: They became members of a formation that they
24 considered to be adequate for them. They never joined any TO units or
25 the brigade, but they joined these Muslim forces.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your headquarters were located
2 in the vicinity. In your opinion, where were they quartered? Because
3 after all, there were several dozens of them. They must have been
4 quartered somewhere. Where?
5 A. Your Honour, my assumption is that some of them were located in
6 Medresa, or rather, the religious school which I talked about a moment
7 ago. And that the remainder were deployed in the area in the vicinity of
8 the front line against the Serbs because, after all, we were in August
9 1992. And as far as I can recall, elements of these forces were located
10 in the area to the northwest of Turbe, in Karaula. The name of the
11 location is Radalj, and there was also Ukalj. So it was in the area
12 towards Serb forces. Rotations carried out in the area, and probably
13 those who were located in the religious school went there. There was
14 Territorial Defence staff located in the area, and they must have
15 facilitated the passage of these units. So these units were rotated
16 because it was necessary to act jointly against Serb forces.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The date is the 21st of August.
18 It must have been in the afternoon because of the shades. The sun was
19 behind the soldiers. So this probably took place in the afternoon.
20 Which was the military authority that had the supreme power in
21 Travnik? Which was the military authority that was present in Travnik at
22 the highest level that could actually issue permission for such a
23 military ceremony to take place in Travnik in presence of a number of
24 civilians and religious authorities, and also someone who spoke on the
25 megaphone whom we could not hear, but who obviously was holding a kind of
1 rally? Who was the military authority that was able to organise such a
2 gathering, such a rally?
3 A. I don't know. The highest command at the time in Travnik was the
4 Territorial Defence staff headed by a commander. Whether permission was
5 indeed issued to that effect, I don't know. Moreover, I was not aware of
6 that rally. I was not aware of this inspection of ranks at all.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the last question before
8 the break: What is the name of the commander of the Territorial Defence?
9 A. The TO commander after me, from the 1st of June until the
10 formation of the brigades, that is, the month of November was Mr. Haso
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But on the day this rally
13 was held, you were responsible; you were in charge of the TO.
14 A. No, no, Your Honour. I stated that I had been commander of the
15 Territorial Defence until the end of May 1992. After that, I was the TO
16 chief of staff from the 1st of June 1992 until the time when the brigades
17 were established. That period of time was covered by Mr. Haso Ribo. He
18 was the commander of the Territorial Defence, and I was the chief of
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on that day when this video
21 was filmed, you were the chief of staff.
22 A. That is correct.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to have a recess
24 and come back at 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to
3 resume with the hearing. I have just one final question for you,
4 Witness. After that, I will give the floor to the Defence if they wish
5 to ask any additional questions to you.
6 You have spoken this afternoon about OG Zapad, and in that
7 context, you also mentioned OG Bosanska Krajina. I should like to know
8 what operational group exactly you were part of.
9 Before you give your answer, let me just tell you that documents
10 have been tendered by the Defence according to which you received orders
11 from General Alagic. In particular, I am referring to the document which
12 states that the 312th Brigade was one of the addressees just as the 17th
13 Krajina and the 306th Brigade. I'm referring to the document 1005. This
14 document, therefore, says that you were part of the group which was led
15 by Alagic. Could you now tell us precisely who was your superior before
16 the 3rd Corps, because we have this operational group as well.
17 A. Your Honour, I was speaking about the difficulties that the
18 commander of the 3rd Corps was faced with in connection with command and
19 control with a large number of lower units, including brigades. And it
20 is with that objective in mind that the Operational Group Zapad and
21 Operational Group Bosanska Krajina were established in March and April in
22 1993. My command, the command of the 312th Brigade -- or rather, the
23 whole of the brigade, was part of the OG Zapad pursuant to that order,
24 which was located in Bugojno, whose headquarters were located in Bugojno.
25 All my reporting activities and also in terms of receiving orders from
1 the operational group went in that direction, and the other way around,
2 of course.
3 However, when combat activities started against HVO as well,
4 there occurred an interruption in communication in terms of command and
5 control. And in that sense, the 312th Brigade, not on its own but
6 because there was a higher command with headquarters in Travnik, the
7 Operational Group Bosanska Krajina which was linked to the 3rd Corps,
8 received tasks and reported also to the Operational Group Bosanska
9 Krajina. I cannot recall whether there was a specific order of the
10 3rd Corps to that effect, that that is how things should be done. But it
11 is my assessment as a soldier that that was how it was done, that there
12 were communications, obviously, with the Operational Group Zapad in
13 Bugojno. But we also received tasks from the Bosanska Krajina
14 Operational Group. And we also received orders from that group.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're now confirming that
16 you were also under the authority of General Alagic?
17 A. That is correct, yes.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have Exhibit
19 304, which is part of the record. General Alagic is the author of the
20 document, and he described the situation in Travnik, and he indicated,
21 concerning the unit under your command, that you were faced with Chetniks
22 and that you had 270 men under your command and that you were placed in
23 Travnik. It's a document dating from the 13th of April. So if that is
24 what General Alagic said, he then believed that he had under his command
25 304, 312th, the 17th, the 7th Battalion, and the 306th Brigade.
1 I have no further questions for you -- well, I would have -- we
2 would have additional questions for you, but because of the time
3 constraints, we cannot address everything. You are the only military
4 commander who has appeared so far before the Chamber and who has been
5 able to speak about the BH army. There may be other issues as well, but
6 we might raise them with other witnesses. Time flies, and we just have
7 50 minutes left for questions, if any, by the Defence.
8 Let me now give the floor to the Defence to see if there are any
9 questions that have arisen as a result of the questions asked by the
10 Chamber -- or rather, by myself since my colleagues did not have anything
11 to ask.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.
13 President. I do have additional questions for this witness.
14 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Caber, in response to a question put to you
16 by my learned colleague you clarified that Commander Hadzihasanovic paid
17 two visits to Travnik and in turn you visited Zenica on two occasions,
18 and you met Commander Hadzihasanovic on one of those occasions. And on
19 the other occasion, you met with the chief of staff, Mr. Mekic.
20 In connection with that, could you please tell us the following:
21 Were other members of the command of the 3rd Corps acting pursuant to
22 their assignments, their tasks, and did they also pay visits to your
23 brigade as part of their duties -- the duties that they had as members of
24 the command of the 3rd Corps?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'm referring to the answer that you gave me yesterday, that is,
2 that the command issued you orders, that you sent them reports, and that
3 members of the command would visit you to verify that the orders were
4 indeed carried out. So in addition to the visit by Commander
5 Hadzihasanovic, I would like to know whether other members of the command
6 of the 3rd Corps came to see you, and if so, with what specific
8 A. So let me repeat: Yes, responsible officers from the command of
9 the 3rd Corps did visit us in connection with a number of issues such as
10 combat readiness of troops facing Serb forces; and also, what was
11 particularly interesting, they wanted to know how well equipped and well
12 disciplined the troops were, the troops located at the forward line, and
13 they would draft reports thereof. And I would receive such reports; not
14 only myself, but other members of the staff as well.
15 Q. Thank you very much. I believe we have clarified the answer that
16 you gave to my colleague from the Prosecution.
17 You also spoke of and you indicated on the map the combat lines
18 that you maintained against Serb forces. And you also responded to a
19 question by Mr. Mundis regarding your positions against HVO forces at the
20 time. Tell us, please, what is exactly the Travnik Brigade?
21 A. I'm not sure I understand you.
22 Q. Was there an HVO brigade in Travnik, and what was its name?
23 A. Yes, there was an HVO brigade in Travnik which was called
24 Travnicka Brigade. There was another one, speaking of HVO, which was
25 called Frankopani, and that was in the area of Guca Gora. That is where
1 their headquarters were.
2 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about the fact that HVO units at one point
3 took position of elevated ground. Tell us, please: Where were the units
4 of the HVO Travnik Brigade located -- rather, deployed in April, May, and
5 June just prior to the outbreak of the conflict, in the town itself and
6 in the area around the town?
7 A. As far as the town itself is concerned, in that context I can
8 mention the former JNA club. That is where they were. That will be the
9 command of the 7th Corps later on, Sebisic. And then I remember they
10 took possession of some premises that had been used by various companies.
11 So this is as far as the staff and the command is concerned.
12 As for the troops, I think that I indicated yesterday that they
13 took possession of high-ground area to the south and to the north of
14 Travnik. I'm referring to the mountain of Vilenica and the southern
15 slopes of Vlasic, in particular, the area of Kajabasa. This was a high
16 area that was not in direct contact with Serb forces.
17 Q. Can you tell us, please, who was deployed at Hajdarove Njive and
18 whether that area also dominated the town of Travnik, whether it was also
19 high ground above the town itself.
20 A. That is the area located 500 metres from the facility that we saw
21 a moment ago, from the religious school. And it is high ground with
22 respect to the religious school, in military terms. That is the only
23 spot from which one is able to control the religious school.
24 Q. Is it possible to control the area of Travnik, the town of
25 Travnik, from these elevated points that you mentioned?
1 A. Yes, yes. And as far as Serb forces are concerned, Serb forces
2 that were deployed at Vlasic, that applied to them, too. They were on
3 elevated ground.
4 Q. Speaking of the confrontation with the HVO, tell us, please, who
5 held the approach road to Travnik from the direction of Vitez?
6 A. There was an HVO checkpoint in the area of Dolac on Lasva, which
7 is a junction on the road towards Travnik. And also in the area of Guca
9 Q. In connection with that, I should like to know whether at the
10 time of the attack on the town of Travnik, whether the line of
11 confrontation against the HVO stayed in the area that you indicated on
12 the map, or whether these locations, these spots were also part of the
13 confrontation line.
14 A. Yes. I was referring only to the area in connection with the
15 312th Brigade. However, to the north and to the east towards Novi
16 Travnik, there were also units of the brigade -- the units which were in
17 contact with HVO forces.
18 Q. My learned friend also asked you about possible violations
19 committed by members of your brigade outside the area in which you were
20 militarily active. As far as I understood his question, he wanted to
21 know whether you were aware of any such conduct on the part of your
22 soldiers who were on leave. Yesterday, I showed you a large number of
23 documents in which you requested your troops to come from various
24 locations, Vitez, Mehurici, Zenica, and some others. I would like to
25 know why your men were there at all. How come they were there? And who
1 were they?
2 A. They were fighters from the Travnik Municipality, from the
3 military zone of the former TO. And since that area had fallen into Serb
4 hands - I am referring to a large area of the Vlasic plateau and
5 Karaula - most of these villages were either Muslim or Croat villages,
6 and the population was forced to abandon these villages, and they
7 eventually arrived in Travnik. So they were accommodated either in
8 Travnik, in the town of Travnik or in the surrounding villages. So many
9 of these soldiers were from there, and they had their families there.
10 And many of them also went to Zenica and Kakanj to find accommodation
11 there. And whenever they would go back to that area, there would be
12 problems. I spoke about the issues related to the passage of troops and
14 Q. Did you have barracks in which you were able to accommodate the
15 people who were not residents of Travnik?
16 A. No, no, we didn't have barracks where we could accommodate a
17 platoon or a company, let alone a battalion. There was barracks in the
18 centre of the town, but it was used for accommodation of refugees. And
19 also members of the 17th Krajina Brigade.
20 Q. Mr. Mundis asked you a number of questions in connection with the
21 possible participation of your units in combat operations in the greater
22 area of Travnik Municipality. I should like to know in connection with
23 that whether you had a Howitzer in the 312th Brigade.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where was it? And also where was the crew of that Howitzer?
1 A. We had combat positions in Bas Bunar, in that area. And in light
2 of the way this Howitzer was used, it was necessary for it to be there
3 because of the range and the Serb forces. In the area of Biljani, we had
4 -- I don't know the exact location because we didn't have enough men in
5 that area, the area stretching from there to Vlasic plateau. So I cannot
6 recall the exact location of that 105-millimetre Howitzer in the area.
7 Q. I apologise for the leading question. But can you please
8 clarify, is that the area where units of the 306th were also active?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. In response to a question about the protection of the population
11 in your zone of combat operations, you said that you took all the
12 necessary measures to protect their houses, et cetera. And you said that
13 you did this because these inhabitants left as they had been threatened
14 by arms. Who had threatened these inhabitants? And we're referring to
15 the Croatian inhabitants of these places.
16 A. Yes. Unfortunately that happened at the beginning of June 1993.
17 The inhabitants of Croatian villages were forced to leave.
18 Q. Who forced them?
19 A. HVO members did. And how do I know this? I know this because
20 many citizens, when they returned later on in 1994 and after the
21 Washington Agreement, they returned and said we went to Vlasic. We were
22 received by the Serbian forces. They took to Kiseljak, et cetera. We
23 were maltreated. We didn't want to go. So such information was provided
24 in conversation with them. And the citizens said that these soldiers
25 forced them to go to the area where there were Serbian forces who took
1 them over and then transferred them to the Kiseljak region.
2 Q. In connection with a question put to you by the President of the
3 Chamber about your resubordination and in connection with an answer you
4 provided yesterday according to which the OG Bosanska Krajina had a task
5 that wasn't related to the area in question, my question is: Do you have
6 any knowledge as to whether the OG Bosanska Krajina in some -- at some
7 time in 1993 was assigned other tasks? And did you have orders from the
8 3rd Corps according to which you were to obey orders issued by the OG, by
9 the operation group?
10 A. Well, as I had the opportunity of listening to certain
11 activities, to listen to information about the activities of OG,
12 operations group, their task was to form the free men to join brigades so
13 that they could raise the blockade of Sarajevo. What happened happened.
14 Certain activities were carried out that didn't correspond to the main
15 idea, the main plan. So the Bosanska Krajina OG which didn't -- which
16 wasn't linked to the combat zone had the main task of raising the
17 blockade of Sarajevo. And as such, it took upon itself the duty to carry
18 out the activities that were carried out in 1993. This was done because
19 of the impossibility of command and control, because of the impossibility
20 of acting together with the command of us with other brigades who
21 couldn't communicate with OG Zapad. It was impossible for the newly
22 developed situation to be solved.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Caber, you have been shown a video in which you
24 saw on television, too. You recognised the location where it was shot,
25 and you recognised -- you identified two persons. Please tell me, the
1 Territorial Defence staff of which you were a chief at the date that you
2 mentioned, was that TO staff -- did that TO staff establish military
3 power in the municipality? Was it, in fact, the body that had authority
4 to issue orders, or did you have some other kind of tasks? And if so,
5 please tell us what sort of tasks you had.
6 A. The Territorial Defence staff didn't have military authority of
7 any kind. When you say "authority," it means that you have a president
8 of the municipality, that you have control over the economy. It means
9 that the people in the municipality were under their authority. But no,
10 this was not the case. They weren't under the staff command. The
11 command of the TO staff had to perform duties at the front lines. They
12 had to engage troops and units. But also in cooperation with the legal
13 authorities, in cooperation with the municipality, they had to ensure
14 that there was logistical support for the combat operations; that is to
15 say, they had to ensure that food was provided.
16 Q. Yesterday you said that the HVO was present there and today said
17 that the HVO and the police were present, the HVO and armed forces were
18 present there. Did any of them have weapons? Was the police force
19 armed, or the HVO or the reserve police force? Did they need permission
20 of any kind? Did any of them need to request permission from the TO
21 staff if they wanted to gather in some place in Travnik?
22 A. No, not from the TO.
23 Q. If anyone gave permission for people to gather in Travnik, which
24 organ would issue such permission?
25 A. That would be the wartime presidency in Travnik Municipality,
1 which was headed by the president of the municipality, and it was
2 composed of -- well, I don't know exactly who it was composed of. I just
3 know that the commander of the TO staff wasn't part of that wartime
5 Q. After having seen the video, you commented on something that you
6 had seen on television a year or two ago. But my question is at the
7 time, as chief of the staff, did you have any knowledge about who formed
8 the Muslim forces? Do you know who their command was, or did you have
9 any knowledge about how they were organised? As a result of the post
10 that you held, do you have any knowledge of this with regard to those
11 forces that had been formed independently of the TO? Have you understood
12 my question?
13 A. Yes, I'm waiting for the end of the interpretation. But no, I
14 didn't know anything about this. As I told your learned colleague, I
15 didn't know who this -- who composed this formation. Perhaps there were
16 refugees, refugees from Bosanska Krajina. As to the officers, as to the
17 superior-subordinate relationship, no, I don't know. I don't know
18 anything about that.
19 Q. You also answered a question put to you by my learned colleague
20 by saying that you thought that those -- that later on, after the BH Army
21 had been formed, you thought that these Muslim forces to enter [as
22 interpreted] the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim. My question is do you
23 know whether all of these forces entered and became part of that
24 battalion? Or did just part of these forces entered that battalion? Or
25 would you be able to say which members of those Muslim forces entered the
1 1st Battalion? Do you know anything about this? Do you personally know
2 anything about this?
3 A. Well, look, all I know is what I as a soldier always respected.
4 All those who wanted to be under a single command and who wanted to
5 respect orders from a single command, such people were always welcome.
6 And as such, they probably become members, not only of the 1st Battalion
7 of the 7th, I assume that that was the case for the entire BH Army.
8 Your question was perhaps a little more specific. This is a
9 question that was also put to me by the Prosecution. There were also
10 people who were not willing, that -- well, let's say from the area of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but they were not willing to be placed under that
12 command. So I assume these people didn't even become part of the 7th.
13 That is information that I later obtained.
14 Q. Mr. Caber, you also spoke about the attendance of certain
15 meetings at which General Alagic spoke about the groups who refused to be
16 placed under the command. And you also mentioned discussions with
17 members of the international community, and they spoke to you about the
18 existence of these groups. Given what you have just said, you said that
19 after the conflict, you were not in contact with your command. Can you
20 tell us when this occurred. Was it in mid-1993, in the second half of
21 1993, or in the first half of 1993? Is that when these stories of
22 certain groups of mujahedin were stories that were told to you? Can you
23 go back in time and tell us whether you can remember the period, the time
24 when this occurred?
25 A. It was in the summer of 1993. I really don't know the month. I
1 know that it was in the summer of 1993.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the President of the Trial
4 Chamber mentioned Document P304 and it's not a document we can have a
5 look at right now -- or in fact, we do have the document here. I
6 apologise. But could we show the witness this document that the
7 President of the Chamber referred to so that the witness can tell us
8 about the nature of this document. I would like to ask the usher to show
9 Document P304 to the witness, and we can provide a copy if you can't find
11 Q. Before you are shown this document, I would like to ask you
12 another question because you are a member of the military. The units and
13 commands that act or that acted in the area where your unit acted, was it
14 customary for those units to inform you about the action they would take
15 even if they were not subordinated to you or even if you weren't their
16 superiors? Was this customary?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you have a look at the document now. Is this an order of
19 some kind?
20 A. Well, this is a report from the 3rd Corps command on the
21 situation in Travnik. And a reference is made to brigades for
22 communications and linked to the Zapad OG. We can see that this highest
23 command in Travnik because of the impossibility of these units of
24 communicating with OG Zapad undertook the duty to report and establish
25 contact with the units referred to.
1 Q. Thank you. You can return the document now.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
3 another document. And questions were put to the witness in relation to
4 this document. The document in question is Defence Document Number 1155.
5 We have the document here, and it has not yet been admitted into
6 evidence. So perhaps it would be simplest if we showed the witness our
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You could perhaps put it on the
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Have you had the opportunity of examining the document? You can
12 have a look at it like that. Everyone will be able to see the document
13 on the monitor.
14 What sort of a document is this?
15 A. This is a document in which the commander of the Bosanska Krajina
16 OG is ordering --
17 Q. Are we looking at the same document? Is this an order --
18 A. No, this is an information -- let me just have another look.
19 Q. Please tell me, is this an order or is this some other type of
21 A. This is a piece of information or report according to which the
22 commander of the Bosanska Krajina OG is informing commands in the zone of
23 operations which were linked to the Zapad and Bosanska Krajina OGs. He's
24 informing them about the situation. And above all, about the objective
25 of protecting and taking measures to prevent looting in abandoned
2 Q. Thank you. Since you are a soldier and I am not, can you please
3 tell me whether these two documents, the report we have shown you and
4 this information that you have in front of you which was issued by
5 Commander Mehmed Alagic, can you tell us whether in military terms you
6 can demonstrate anything with regard to the superior-subordinate
7 relationship between the high and low commands. Is there anything that
8 can be concluded on the basis of these documents with regard to
10 A. Yes. Since the command for the Bosanska Krajina OG at the time
11 in question, at the beginning of June, was in the situation it was in,
12 and we know what sort of a situation it was in, they undertook not to
13 remain passive observers, but they undertook to exercise control and to
14 inform units since according to their estimate they should be aware of
15 what their duties were. This seemed to be a professional way of
17 Q. Are these documents of an informative kind for the units in that
18 area, or are they documents that demonstrate the way in which command was
19 performed for the units referred to here?
20 A. Well, look, it's both informative, but it also requests that
21 commands take certain measures and carry out certain tasks. So it
22 contains elements of both of these things. Information is provided and
23 tasks are also assigned.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Caber.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll turn to the other Defence
2 team now.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
4 only have -- we have only one question for Mr. Caber.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
6 Q. And it relates to a question put by Ms. Residovic. It has to do
7 with the Muslim forces that you mentioned, the Muslim forces that were
8 present in the Travnik region up until the time of the formation of the
9 brigades in the corps. If I told you that certain members of the Muslim
10 forces joined units other than the 7th Brigade 1st Battalion and units
11 that were placed under the command of the 3rd Corps, for example the
12 306th Brigade, the 17th Krajina Brigade, and the 307th Brigade, you would
13 probably agree with me.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was the only
16 question I had for this witness.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to ask
20 whether once you have finished with your questions, once we have finished
21 with the witness, whether it would be the right time to address the issue
22 of documents.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Witness, this concludes your examination. You have been here for
25 two days and answered numerous and various questions. You have answered
1 the questions put to you by the Prosecution, by the Defence, and by the
2 Chamber. Thank you for your testimony. We wish you a good trip home,
3 and we wish you all the best in your post in the Ministry of Defence.
4 I will now ask the witness to escort you out of the courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have some documents to deal
8 with. I believe that the Prosecution would also like to tender the map
9 into evidence. But Defence counsel may take the floor.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the documents that
11 we have provided the Prosecution, the Trial Chamber has also been
12 following the documents we have shown to the witness. We suggest that
13 all these documents be admitted evidence as Defence exhibits, from 1 to
14 26 -- the documents 1 to 26, documents that the witness identified as
15 documents that he himself drafted, or documents that his brigade drafted,
16 or that he as commander of the 312th Brigade received. So given that the
17 witness has identified the documents and he has spoken about the contents
18 of these various documents, we believe that all the conditions have been
19 met for these documents to be admitted into evidence.
20 The witness also identified all the documents referred to under
21 part A, Combat Report. These documents are documents 1 to 9. He
22 identified them as documents which were combat-related reports, regular
23 and irregular reports, and his command forwarded them to him at times and
24 in the manner indicated in these documents. They were regular and
25 interim reports.
1 And the witness in the course of his testimony also mentioned
2 various events referred to in these documents. For these reasons,
3 Defence counsel suggests that all these documents be admitted into
5 And finally, under Section B entitled "Movement," we have
6 documents identified by the witness as documents that he drafted himself
7 or as documents that his chief of staff or battalion commander drafted.
8 He had a -- examined a significant number of the documents, and he has
9 testified in detail about the events referred to in the documents. He
10 was also shown a document in which the HVO responds to his requests, and
11 he identified the facts in the document he was shown, that it was a
12 document that was a response to his request. Since this witness is
13 familiar with the documents and since the witness spoke about the facts
14 related in these documents in answers to questions put to him, we believe
15 that all the conditions have been met for all the documents under the
16 title "Movement," documents 1 to 26, be accepted as -- be admitted into
18 Under Section 2 entitled "The HVO," the Defence referred to six
19 documents, five of which -- four of which were shown to the witness. The
20 witness hasn't seen the documents before, but he was familiar with the
21 facts related in each of those documents. He knew who the people were
22 who had been appointed to posts within the parallel organs of power in
23 Travnik. He insisted on the fact that they were the only legitimate
24 organs of power and that parallel judiciary organs were established. And
25 he also mentioned that the document on number 4 referred to facts
1 according to which the conflict in Novi Travnik in 1992 were not provoked
2 by the Armija, by the army, but by the HVO. The witness wasn't shown
3 documents under number 5 and 6, but the witness did testify about some
4 facts related in these documents. In fact, he said that he knew that on
5 the 8th of April in Travnik, there was a meeting of HVO representatives,
6 and Dario Kordic, among others, attended it. And with regard to the
7 events that followed -- and he also spoke about the events in which two
8 of his soldiers were killed.
9 Given that the documents under 5 and 6 relate to those events, I
10 believe that we have good reason to have these documents admitted into
11 evidence. And this is also valid for documents 1 to 4.
12 For these reasons, the Defence suggest that all these documents
13 be admitted into evidence. Could they be admitted under these numbers.
14 And in accordance with the Chamber's order, we will provide for the
15 purposes of identification all the documents that we have on our complete
16 list of documents. This will enable us to maintain the same number on
17 the document. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, your observations.
19 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
21 admits into evidence all the documents contain in the binder, and there
22 is a list of these documents contained at the beginning of the binder.
23 For the BH, we have 26 documents; combat reports, 9 documents; under
24 movement, there are 21 documents; under HVO, there are 6 documents. I'd
25 like to point out for the sake of the transcript that the document under
1 the title "BH" number 4, Document 613, this is a typing error in the
2 English version because the name of General Enver Hadzihasanovic -- well,
3 we have an address email which is indicated, and at the time there was no
4 email. So instead of typing Z, we have an email address. It's a slight
5 typing error. Nothing escapes the Trial Chamber's attention. I wanted
6 to point this out.
7 Mr. Registrar, you will have to give us numbers for these
8 documents. Perhaps not tonight because this involves a lot of work.
9 Perhaps tomorrow you will provide us with the relevant numbers.
10 Mr. Mundis -- yes, I will give the floor to Defence counsel.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would
12 like to ask the Chamber for one additional decision. We have invited
13 three to four witnesses for this week. As a result of the problems that
14 have arisen in the meantime, and because we had a BH Army officer as a
15 witness for the first time, that examination took longer than expected.
16 As we indicated, the second witness, Mr. Siljak, who was a member
17 of the municipal staff of the defence and then throughout 1993 he was the
18 chief of staff of the 306th Brigade, he's a witness that we scheduled for
19 two days. And I believe that it is the interest of Tribunal and the
20 Defence of our client and in the interests of truth that we should not
21 shorten the examination of that witness. So we, therefore, suggest that
22 he be the first witness and not Witness Mesanovic. I'm referring to the
23 next week.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're telling us that the
25 witness who had to arrived on Friday will be examined next week because
1 the second witness will need two days because of the fact that he
2 occupied a certain position in the 306th Brigade. Very well. We can
3 only agree with your suggestion because then that will be the witness for
4 next week. We were asking ourselves who the witnesses would be. We have
5 the session on Tuesday afternoon, because Monday is a holiday. Then also
6 Wednesday afternoon, Thursday afternoon, and also we wanted to know
7 whether there would be a session or Friday or not. On the table of the
8 Registrar, there was an empty courtroom due to technical reasons. So
9 does that mean that there will be no session on Friday afternoon, or is
10 it maybe possible to schedule a session?
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it seems there cannot be any
13 hearing on Friday afternoon in this courtroom due to technical reasons.
14 Mr. Mundis, we still have several minutes for the map which is on
15 your left.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. With the leave of the
17 Trial Chamber and perhaps if there are no objections from the Defence,
18 what the Prosecution would propose doing is marking this map for
19 identification, and then allowing subsequent witnesses to make further
20 markings on that map, perhaps using different coloured markers. That way
21 we don't have 10 or 12 versions of this map with different units marked
22 on there. That's what we would propose, unless there are objections to
23 that. So we would mark it for identification for now, and subsequent
24 witnesses could use different coloured pens or we can address that issue
25 as we go. But just to keep the fewer number of maps that come in as
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only technical question is
3 will we have enough various coloured felt tips, because if there are 10
4 or 12 witnesses we will need 12 colours. We are familiar with primary
5 colours, but we will require perhaps secondary colours.
6 If Defence counsel has no objections to raise, we'll mark this
7 for identification, which means that the map could be used, providing we
8 use various colours. Mr. Registrar, could we have a number marked for
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked for
11 identification under number P930.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Are there any other issues that the Defence would like to raise? No.
14 The Prosecution? No comments.
15 We had planned to have the hearing tomorrow in the morning
16 instead of in the afternoon. But apparently that might cause a number of
17 problems. So we will have the hearing tomorrow in the afternoon. It
18 will commence at 2.15, and I will see everyone in this courtroom tomorrow
19 at 2.15. We will now adjourn, and we will resume at 2.15. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
22 October, at 2.15 p.m.